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The result was delete‎. Star Mississippi 23:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Penton Keah

Penton Keah (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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not notable by any measure. There is only one source from Sudans Post that mentions his name, which is a news outlet that belongs to his brother! Other than that, not even in-passing mentions. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 20:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Entertainment, Internet, Egypt, and Sudan. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 21:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep a basic internet search shows he is clearly notable in South Sudan. Probably not notable outside of South Sudan, but global notability is not a requirement of WP:SIGCOV and national coverage is enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Contributor892z ( talk • contribs) 13:09, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Please share that simple search?
    i above included a search with zero results FuzzyMagma ( talk) 13:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ FuzzyMagma: I really mean as simple as that [1]. You can quickly see that he has 1.8 million followers on Facebook, which is almost double the 1.0 million followers on Facebook that Jeremy Clarkson has, and nearly everyone in the UK knows who Jeremy Clarkson is. Contributor892z ( talk) 21:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Contributor892z: WP:GOOGLEHITS, WP:IKNOWIT. Eagles  24/7  (C) 13:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Eagles247: my point is the absolute opposite of WP:IKNOWIT. I never heard of the subject until this delete discussion. But then I searched his name and concluded that he must be a notable person in South Sudan, and this is exactly what his bio article is saying. Contributor892z ( talk) 13:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Eagles247: and WP:GOOGLEHITS is completely not applicable here. I’m using number of followers, a very objective measure of quality of the hit, and concluding that this number is consistent with the number of a notable person in South Sudan. Unless we change the rules of Wikipedia and say that notability only counts for people that appear in Western media, we need to use other tools to ascertain the notability of people that do not appear in Western media. Contributor892z ( talk) 13:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Contributor892z this is not a popularity contest fandom website, if that was the case, we would have written only about Youtubers and TikTokers.
    Please take a look to WP:42, these are the very basic criteria.
    This individual did not receive a significant coverage from multiple reliable and independent sources. As I mentioned in the nom, the two mentions comes from his brother (if not himself, as he is one of the founders of the Sudan Post, so not independent. And you are talking about Facebook followers, which is not a criteria for notability.
    Your whole reason for a keep is not a reason, and your comment should be stricken down as you clearly have no clue what WP:SIGCOV entails.
    As I said, if you can show, (and this is the bare minimum), significant coverage from multiple reliable and independent sources, then please enlighten us. And please check Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources before mentioning Facebook again. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 16:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ FuzzyMagma: such an unnecessary aggression! your comment should be stricken down as you clearly cannot have a dialogue with someone that has a different point of view. South Sudan is a country ravaged by war, the world youngest country. This subject has set up with his brother what is arguably the only independent news outlet of South Sudan. No country in the world seems to care about South Sudan. There is only one independent news source. How can any of those rules that you mention be possibly applicable? I'm not talking here about fandom website! I'm talking about using publicly available evidence to establish that someone is notable in a country that nobody in the West cares about. According to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources (which I know very well, by the way), you can't use Facebook as news source because it's self published with no editorial oversight. But that has nothing to do with what I'm saying! I'm using reliable information, independent of the subject, available on Facebook to show that this person has fulfilled requirement number 2 of WP:ENTERTAINER, namely: "The person has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment." which field? social media in South Sudan! Contributor892z ( talk) 17:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    you understand that is not a reliable source? Your opinion and google search is not a reliable source. do you understand that?
    read WP:Original research please, and please stop patronising me. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 18:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

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@ Contributor892z, you claim that FuzzyMagma's comment (which is correct about notability btw) is uncivil, but then you proceed to write an extremely aggressive comment which ignores policy. Facebook cannot be used as a source. " using reliable information, independent of the subject, available on Facebook " is the very definition of using a source. It does not matter if there is only 1 reliable outlet in South Sudan, if it's connected to him its not independent and thus cannot be used to establish notability. You have the gall to claim that you understand perennial sources, only to immediately contradict it, and say it doesn't apply. Industrial Insect (talk) 18:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Industrial Insect: and @ FuzzyMagma: this will be my last comment to prevent this discussion from becoming even more uncivil than already is. I’m not patronising anyone, not doing original research and not having an opinion. I’m just using a counter, which is a matter of fact and can be independently checked and audited by anyone. Whether I like the subject of this article or not, and whether I agree if his person is notable or not, this person has irrefutable evidence of having provided a contribution to a field of entertainment that is bigger than the contribution of other entertainers that are certain to stay in Wikipedia forever. Therefore, my assessment of keep stays. Contributor892z ( talk) 19:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
1) You have NOT proven the subject has satisfied WP:ENTERTAINER in any way. You've only explained the vague notion of "social media in South Sudan".
2) Even if you had, it must be verified by an independent, reliable source. Neither Facebook, nor the newspaper written by his brother can count towards this. Industrial Insect (talk) 13:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete after reading the discussion, this is a pretty clear case of failing to satisfy WP:GNG, WP:ENTERTAINER given the exactly 0 news hits a search returns.
Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep‎. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 05:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Sargam Koushal

Sargam Koushal (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Not notable due to WP:BLP1E and note that the other winners of Mrs. World do not have their own page, so precedent shows that there is no basis for creating a Wikipedia page just for women winning one low-profile marital pageant and doing nothing else with their reign. Fixthetyp0 ( talk) 15:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Note: I also wish to nominate the photo on Wikimedia Commons for deletion because I doubt this person who created a new account just to post this photo was truly submitting his "own work" (I suppose admin will have to look behind the scenes to see if this claim was convincing) but I do not know how to nominate photos for deletion. Fixthetyp0 ( talk) 15:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep: This article receives significant coverage according to the Wikipedia guideline on significant coverage per WP:SIGCOV. It also includes citations for different events like she was judge in Mrs South Africa 2023 (a national event), so it doesn't fall under the guideline for bio notable for single event per WP:BLP1E. However, the nominator claims that past winners lack Wikipedia articles. While some winners might not have articles, the presence or absence of articles for past winners is not a validity criterion for this specific article. Every article is evaluated on its own merits based on whether it meets the notability guidelines per WP:GNG and having WP: SIGCOV. Regards GAGIWOR ( talk) 07:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep: This is a case of WP:BLP1E and so is notable. There are SIGCOV and bearing the title for "Miss world" is heavy that it can be a stand-alone entry for Wikipedia! Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 01:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    WP:BLP1E is generally an argument against notability, not for it. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect‎ to Mir Mohammad Nasiruddin. as an ATD. Liz Read! Talk! 03:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Mir Mohammed Helal Uddin

AfDs for this article:
Mir Mohammed Helal Uddin (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Son of a notable politician. He has never been elected to public office, but is active within the party. The cited sources are passing mentions, not significant coverage. Searches found slightly deeper news coverage of his conviction for helping his dad conceal illegally acquired assets (he got 3 years, daddy got 13). [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]

He has only been written about in the context of his father, so my sense is that he is not notable. He is not a suitable subject for a stand alone article; he is a footnote to his father's biography. There is no content worth merging, but I could agree to a redirect to Mir Mohammad Nasiruddin, where his conviction is already mentioned. Worldbruce ( talk) 18:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete he never got as far as the ballot paper, so really just an aspiratoinal politician. He may have inhereted a perchant for doing crime, but notability is not inhereted. ---- D'n'B- t -- 18:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Fallen (Transformers)

AfDs for this article:
Fallen (Transformers) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This character does not have enough WP:SIGCOV or WP:RS. Most articles that mention him are just about the film and don't go in depth on this character. Searching for the alt name Megatronus gives no better results, just TFwiki and sporadic toy announcements from Transformers fan sites. The previous AfD had one keep vote without policy rationale and closed due to the nominator being blocked, the article has not improved since then. Impressive piece of WP:FANCRUFT though, but we're WP:NOTFANDOM. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 19:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Delete The sources seem to be either announcements or the script of the Revenge of the Fallen movie, which cannot be used as it is a primary source.
Industrial Insect (talk) 18:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete per Industrial Insect. Doesn't appear to reach WP:SIGCOV and it's already covered in other related articles. Shooterwalker ( talk) 15:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 07:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Victor Adegbile

Victor Adegbile (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Article about a non-notable businessperson. Sources are regular Run-of-the-mill and paid paid sources. This clearly states its sponsored. The rest of the sources are written by contributors and are WP:PROMO who in itself are not independent of the subject. Subjects fails WP:SIGCOV and WP:ANYBIO. Jamiebuba ( talk) 19:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete I don’t see anything in the bio that would make him notable, and the sources are interviews or churnalism. Mccapra ( talk) 06:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - I'm not convinced coverage describing him as "visionary" can be considered independent or reliable. Not notable — MaxnaCarta  (  💬 •  📝 ) 03:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 06:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Danish Ali

AfDs for this article:
Danish Ali (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I nominated it for deletion back in 2023 i guess but it was kept, but i feel like it still doesn't meet GNG so nominating it again. Most of the cited sources either do not meet WP:RS or are trivial mentions. Saqib ( talk) 16:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete: Still nothing found for this person. Nothing in Canadian sources; most if not all sites are where to see him perform or social media sites. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 23:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

WebFetch

WebFetch (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:N. None of the sources in the article establish notability, and I couldn’t find any sources that would establish notability. This had a failed PROD in 2009 because two sources were added at that time. However, those sources are either primary or don’t cover the subject in depth. HyperAccelerated ( talk) 18:23, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete: Primary sources now in the article, all I can find are download repositories. Not seeing notability. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Merge what can be merged to Web scraping, as I believe this is an instrumentality that enables that activity. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 01:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Does not have any secondary coverage to meet WP:GNG. (Merge not recommended as it is a Perl module used to essentially create a feed reader and there's no secondary sources anyways). StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 16:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Proposed coat of arms of North Macedonia

Proposed coat of arms of North Macedonia (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Originally researched article (for the most part) and completely redundant since the same information is already covered in National emblem of North Macedonia. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 21:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and North Macedonia. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 21:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, this is an unnecessary article. Jingiby ( talk) 05:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I note that most of the titles of this article in the other wikis translate to "Macedonian lion". If the Macedonian lion is notable enough, it can have its own standalone article with that title. It is a rather prominent symbol for some ethnic Macedonian orgs (such as VMRO-DPMNE). I otherwise agree that the potential for the lion to become the national emblem can just be covered in the National Emblem article. -- Local hero talk 15:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    It doesn't appear to be notable for its own standalone article. Otherwise there's already content about it on National symbols of North Macedonia. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 15:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. The lion used by DPMNE is solely an imitation of the symbols of the original organization from the end of the 19th century - BMARC, which borrowed the Bulgarian lion from the Bulgarian revolutionary traditions, that have nothing to do with any Macedonian lion. Jingiby ( talk) 19:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Comment: There's quite a few renames in the article's history:
~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 10:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 23:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

David S. Liem

David S. Liem (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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There is no notability claim in the article other than a those related to postdoctoral work on hepatology and that the a frog ( Taudactylus liemi)) was named after him. WP:NACADEMIC isn't met (unsurprising given that most of his career is outside of academia), and there are no other claims. I haven't been able to find other material supporting notability for this David Liem. Klbrain ( talk) 21:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep, while I acknowledge the current scarcity of sources provided for David Liem's Wikipedia article, it's important to consider the context in which the article was created. At the time of its creation, my primary focus was on promptly documenting Liem's contributions, particularly his discovery of the Rheobatrachus silus species. This urgency made me reach the realization that including Liem's page would complete and improve the species' article. Sources probably exist out there and we shouldn’t just delete it per WP:NPOSSIBLE. V.B.Speranza ( talk) 22:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Comment, I must address the procedural concerns surrounding the deletion request. The unilateral decision to move the article to a different page ( Eungella tinker frog) without prior consultation or discussion is concerning and goes against the collaborative nature of Wikipedia. Subsequently proposing the deletion of the article without engaging in constructive dialogue further exacerbates this issue as the person that nominated the article for deletion seems to have done it spontaneously. V.B.Speranza ( talk) 22:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
I'm sorry that this is all a bit blunt V.B.Sepanza, and thanks for your contributions to the project. The move was part of the new page patrol protocol which doesn't include or expect consultation prior to moves; I marked the move as bold, and don't mind being reversed. The next step, having been reversed, is to seek wider views here given that if the merge isn't a suitable alternative to deletion, then deletion seems the way forward. Thanks for adding your views as the page creator. Klbrain ( talk) 07:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Klbrain: Your deletion nomination brings 0 benefits to the community, Wikipedians seem to only care about known stuff while advocating for the contrary. The page is a direct translation of the German page that originates from the French page (created in 2009). V.B.Speranza ( talk) 22:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Randykitty ( talk) 12:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Kadama (App)

Kadama (App) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject fails GNG. None of these sources are independent of the subject as they all interview the subject's founders and many of these read like whitewashed PR. Chris Troutman ( talk) 22:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Software and Washington. Chris Troutman ( talk) 22:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Education and Internet. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Obvious spammy garbage with no meaningful RS and an obvious SPA who is trying to circumvent policy by moving this around. See also previous attempts. GRINCHIDICAE🎄 02:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am the creator of this article. I do not have any conflict of interest and was not aware that the page was deleted in 2018. Even if that was the case, I am sure back then they did not have as many news coverage as they have today, because you will notice from most their article dates, they are all after 2019. This is not a reason to delete the page. The only valid reason to delete a page is if they do not have enough new coverage, which they do.
    I'm familiar with the company through personal use of their application, and upon noticing the absence of a Wikipedia page about them, I took the initiative to create one. I am a new editor and had to look up what an "SPA" is and as you can see from my history I have done lot's of other edits and will be doing more in the future, so I am not an SPA. I wish Wikipedia would treat their new editors better than this, rather than accusing them of spam. Bradelykooper ( talk) 05:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep They have plenty of coverage to qualify. If you don't think its enough, do a Google search and you will find more. Coverage is present from credible publications such as Biz Journals, Bellevue College, GeekWire, Spoken Journal and more. Bradelykooper ( talk) 05:43, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete article reads like advertisement, definitely spammy, fails GNG and NCORP, sources are not good, so I fully agree with nom and Praxidicae. Tehonk ( talk) 06:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    As the author of the page, I've consciously avoided any language that might come across as promotional. If this remains a concern, I'm open to revising the content accordingly. Could you specify which parts you believe sound too much like an advertisement, so I can either adjust or eliminate them? Additionally, I've incorporated new sources discovered by the editor Royal88888 (below). Dismissing all sources as inadequate without explanation seems unfounded, particularly since many are from reputable outlets and some from university publications. Bradelykooper ( talk) 11:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Subject has more than enough news coverage to meet notability. I also found a few new ones. See GeekWire, King5, Washington.edu, bizjournals.com, and a few others. Royal88888 ( talk) 07:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep several of the sources look strong such as GeekWire, Washington University, and Bellevue College Articles. They have details of the company and its founders. I am not seeing anything that looks like PR and publications are reliable. COI issues should be addressed outside of AFD. Bikerose ( talk) 02:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete the sources here are marginal and when compounded with serious funny business with respect to this article, I feel a delete is pretty clear. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. In general, as a commercial application, guidance is to analyse under the criteria of WP:NCORP. There might be a little bit of wiggle room under GNG's independence requirements to accept the Bellevue and UW sources (though even there I would consider things marginal at best) but alumni interviews in school newsletters or a university article about their own startup accelerator are patently not acceptable under ORGCRIT. It is also unclear that such sources ever develop any "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" owing to their typically limited circulation. BizJournals coverage is also heavily based off interview content ( Wikipedia:Interviews) and cannot clearly establish independence on point 2 of ORGIND. The depth of coverage is also somewhat lacking. The next set of sources are the local sources like King 5 and Fox 13 ( KCPQ). Again, these are heavily based off interview content — even before considering circulation, we are looking at about one, maybe two sentences. Depth of analysis would fall under ORGTRIV. GeekWire is the only source so far that is marginally acceptable under NCORP, and it is only one source. Alpha3031 ( t • c) 10:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply

COMMENT - I am a representative at Kadama. I would like to bring to your attention that our company also has coverage in a Pearson Textbook that is used in Colleges and Universities. It is called "Entrepreneurship: Successfully Launching New Ventures" the 7th Edition. I have uploaded just the relevant pages here https://issuu.com/bsimonllc/docs/entrepreneurship .
In addition, I would like to say that there are some more articles about us beyond what’s referenced in this article, including:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/03/28/tiktok-challenges-congress-misinformation/


https://www.forbes.com/30-under-30/2022/education?profile=kadama

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/costco-gift-card-hack-reportedly-allows-non-members-shop-wholesale-club-know-this-secret

https://www.425business.com/in_print/page-24/page_4f244401-a414-5c46-8464-c90deaf63ec2.html

https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/12/this-week-in-apps-wwdc-21-highlights-instagram-creator-week-recap-android-12-beta-2-arrives

https://www.spokanejournal.com/articles/1858-northwest-entrepreneur-competition-names-winners

Thanks.

  • Comment The textbook coverage mentioned above can contribute to establishing notability in accordance with Wikipedia's guidelines. It offers substantial information about the company's origins and operations. However, the other sources mentioned are merely brief references and won't contribute to establishing notability. While I previously voted in favor of keeping the page, the detailed coverage in this textbook further reinforces the case for the company's notability. Royal88888 ( talk) 08:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Aloysius Ogbonna

Aloysius Ogbonna (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable traditional ruler. Fails WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO, probably WP:TOOSOON. Jamiebuba ( talk) 23:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Nigeria. Jamiebuba ( talk) 23:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Per nom. Just TOOSOON. Optional dratification. All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 08:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Week keep: Maybe WP:TOOSOON but that will also not bring notability later. Subject has appeared in multiple WP:RS like this, this and this talking about their emergence after 24years vacancy on the throne which is significant, this could make them pass WP:Basic. Also, the article is not harmful, hence my lean support. Kaizenify ( talk) 18:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    You are right, it is not harmful but again Too soon. Jamiebuba ( talk) 18:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per above. This is trying to build a tree from a leaf - first, Ogugu-Ntegbenese kingdom should be established with reliable sources ( Ogugu looks to be a different location), and properly de-orphaned. Then once that's done, the "kings", including a redirected Aloysius Ogbonna and the 24 year vacancy, might be covered there. ~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 09:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The result was no consensus‎. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 06:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Memory Palace

Memory Palace (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject fails WP:NALBUMS and WP:GNG. Of the five citations listed, the two PRP cites and both the substream and mosh cites uncritically republish the band's PR, with long quotation from one of the band members. Wikipedia could wait until the album actually comes out. Efforts to redirect this have failed. For me, I'd need to see cites from Blabbermouth and NME to think there's any general notability here. Chris Troutman ( talk) 02:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Note that I created the page as a redirect to method of loci; if its decided the article should be removed, it should be restored to the original edit rather than deleted. ·· gracefool 💬 00:16, 12 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep Band has history of lots of coverage, and there is already some for this album, which will certainly only gain more coverage once it is released. Seacactus 13 ( talk) 19:52, 29 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, agree with Chris Troutman on this. Think this is a bit preliminary for an album that both hasn't released and hasn't garnered significant coverage. Schrödinger's jellyfish  ✉ 16:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Revert to Redirect as primary meaning per Gracefool. Any album article should probably be named Memory Palace (2024 album) to distinguish it from the (also redlinked) 2008 album of the same name from Paul Haig and Billy Mackenzie, but it's clearly WP:TOOSOON currently for it to meet NALBUM until there's sufficient RS reviews. Articles covering band announcements are both run-of-the-mill and generally not independent, and sufficiently significant coverage of a creator and/or some of their works is WP:NOTINHERITED by other works. ~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 09:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Redirect. The album is too soon, and I'm sensitive to User:Hydronium Hydroxide's desire to properly disambiguate the resulting redirect. We have no data on this album which might allow it to meet GNG or relevant SNGs. Redirects are cheap (and page history stays intact) as an AtD. BusterD ( talk) 14:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect‎ to List of television stations in California#LPTV stations. Liz Read! Talk! 23:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

KBBV-CD

KBBV-CD (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not meet the GNG. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 22:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Etienne Janeke

Etienne Janeke (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. JTtheOG ( talk) 22:01, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 22:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Statuska

Statuska (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Small company that does not yet meet WP:GNG. Current sourcing is churnalism and the section on the wearable device reads like an advert. (well actually the rest of the article also reads like an advert though perhaps not as strikingly) Pichpich ( talk) 21:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies, Websites, and Israel. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Nothing but press releases to be found. Amusingly, the article itself explains why: it's tiny for a social media platform, having only thousands of users. ~ A412 talk! 22:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete according to Wikipedia's notability guidelines, this article lacks sources to demonstrate the subject's notability. Dejaqo ( talk) 21:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete sources provided are PR type and from reliable. Fails GNG. LibStar ( talk) 21:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per all above. No objection to draftifying, would there be such a request. gidonb ( talk) 16:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Giovan Snyman

Giovan Snyman (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. JTtheOG ( talk) 21:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎.

The main arguments from delete !voters were WP:BLP (and specifically WP:BLPGOSSIP), WP:RECENT, and WP:NOTNEWS. They felt that, instead of focusing on the effects of the coverage itself, the article was excessively detailed on the subject's own actions. Some stated that the article is unencyclopedic, as it covered a number of only somewhat related events (a coatrack article). Some cited the ten-year test, which asks if the article's content will still be relevant in ten years.

Keep !voters felt that since the subject of the article has a significant amount of coverage, including in reliable sources, it is a notable topic and warrants a separate article. Some keep !voters felt that delete !voters' arguments were based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT; I do not think these keep !votes presented a strong argument.

I felt that the arguments based on WP:NOTNEWS, which is part of one of our core policies, were stronger than those based on the amount of coverage the topic has received. The consensus here is that there should not be a standalone article on this topic. Most people felt that, although there is significant coverage, the article contained more detail than was necessary, and a section in Catherine, Princess of Wales would be more appropriate.

—  Ingenuity ( talk •  contribs) 01:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Where is Kate?

AfDs for this article:
Where is Kate? (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Article history: For editors unfamiliar with this article and its torturous journey, welcome:

  • On 11 March, I created Where is Kate?, an article on the speculation surrounding the health and public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales, and the Mother's Day photograph that followed.
  • I immediately started the first AfD discussion, motivated by editors at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales who had resisted calls for including the topic on that article. The first AfD discussion closed on 19 March as keep.
  • From 20 March, editors at the BLP noticeboard raised concerns that the article violated WP:BLP, which was hardly cited in the first AfD.
  • On 21 March, Simonm223 initiated a deletion review, believing that the closing statement of the first AfD did not sufficiently weigh the BLP concerns. This deletion review closed on 31 March as no consensus.
  • With the announcement of the princess' cancer diagnosis on 22 March, TheSpacebook and I initiated a second AfD, which Liz procedurally closed in deference to the ongoing deletion review.

In their closing statement of the deletion review, Sandstein recommended discussion on the article talk page before bringing the article back to AfD. Respectfully, I think the BLP concerns presented by a broad range of editors suggest a strong case for deletion that, ultimately, can only be decided at AfD.

Deletion rationale: I agree with the first AfD's closing statement that this isn't a notability dispute, but rather a question of Wikipedia's scope. As the first AfD discussion suggested, neither WP:NOTNEWS nor WP:NOTGOSSIP necessarily preclude this article's existence, given that the topic, even the speculation, has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources – a matter which does not seem, on-the-whole, to be a point of contention. Not even a quotable part of WP:BLP produces any immediately-obvious rationales for deletion. Instead, in my view, the article merely but brazenly violates the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP, particularly WP:BLPGOSSIP:

Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.

This article cuts against the spirit of the policy, not any quotable text that is particularly fitting to this article's case. Of course "what is and isn't the scope of the Wikipedia" is an appropriate discussion for an AfD, because we have WP:NOT, and I see no reason why we cannot add nots that we believe should reasonably exist at this AfD, especially given that this article is clearly an edge case that concerns a BLP. AfD isn't a court interpreting law; it's a community review process in which editors can exercise discretion. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 21:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Comment: Some editors have remarked off-wiki that the article has the signature of a coatrack article, exemplified by the widespread dissatisfaction of the current article title and the lack of consensus for an alternative name. I think this is a symptom of the underlying problem – that the article is about a media craze. Finally, the speculation can be, and should be, adequately summarised in a few sentences in Catherine, Princess of Wales; I think a Merge is unnecessary as the sources are readily findable. Given the BLP violations, I think an eventual Redirect is fine, so long as the page history of the present article is deleted, which is why I am supporting Delete. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 21:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Well, information related to the Photograph controversy have already been covered under a subsection of "Privacy and Media". Further, there is sufficient information regarding the cancer diagnosis announcement following the abdominal surgery in January this year. At this point, I don't see what more can be actually added to the main article. Do you , @ IgnatiusofLondon, suggest that we should mention all those conspiracy theories or all those appearances like at the Windsor Farm Shop or leaving with her mother in a car to be noted? It would obviously not be relevant in the long term once she returns to public duties full-time and that too, stronger than ever before. Regards MSincccc ( talk) 05:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I'll be honest MSincccc: this comment strikes me as more evidence of the WP:OWNership issues at Catherine, Princess of Wales that motivated me to create Where is Kate? in the first place. I have made no comment about whether "there is sufficient information" or not in the article already; I don't see why this needs to cause alarm for you to leave comments in this AfD or at several editors' talkpages ( 1, 2) protesting that the current coverage is fine. It's not really the place of this AfD to discuss whether the existing summary of the topic at Catherine, Princess of Wales is sufficient; that question can easily be ironed out by local consensus/edits until the article reaches some stability. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 13:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I have always wanted to collaborate with you. The article needs to be fixed including its prose and citation parameters. I left a subtle message on your talk page as well. Regards and yours faithfully, MSincccc ( talk) 14:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I would say this topic can no longer be "gossip" or recent as it has sustained enough wide-ranging and neutral coverage.
Slamforeman ( talk) 22:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Women, Journalism, Photography, Conspiracy theories, Royalty and nobility, Medicine, Internet, and United Kingdom. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete In addition to comments made two deletion proposals ago, this article increasingly resembles fancruft and has content that's only tenuously added (the Queen Victoria stuff and media navel gazing). Killuminator ( talk) 23:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - I was debating whether to even get involved in this latest round of AfD but here we are. I think this is the sort of article Wikipedia should have from a reader's point of view - the reason I've known about the several different discussions around it is because I came to Wikipedia to try and find a well-written non-conspiratorial summary of this all. I think that's important to have, and I think (by and large) this article does that. For me, as long as it complies with policy, that's enough for a clear keep vote. I may be missing something obvious, but I don't see that the article violates the policies in question here; while this article could have been a pile of gossip (and I must commend the editors who have kept it from being so), I'm tending to think the different facets of the issue mean that it goes beyond that. In its current state, I personally don't see that it even violates the spirit of BLP or NOTNEWS. Having said all that, this is definitely a borderline case and I expect many editors will have different opinions to me. I do hope that this is the last time we have to have this discussion though! Thanks, Gazamp ( talk) 00:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Lean keep. Certainly an interesting case of mainstream gossip. At its core, it's gossip. But, in my opinion, this gossip has recieved a sufficient amount of coverage from non-gossip sources about where she was that it should be kept. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based on what reliable sources say. Whether or not we like the coverage reliable sources gave this gossip, they gave it coverage and Wikipedia should reflect that. Esolo5002 ( talk) 00:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep I'm reminded of the Nicola Bulley article, where a very British attitude to an event might not translate to other countries. This is a well maintained, well researched article about a very particular moment in culture, a slice of internet culture we could do well to retain. Notable in its peculiarity, and backed up by enough secondary sources. doktorb words deeds 05:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I agree that this page violates the spirit of WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:AVOIDVICTIM. Next thing you know we'll be creating a 100K page every time a world leader causes the chief accountant to resign by having the country pay for repairs to his pool when the country is at war. :) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 05:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic but that sort of thing would definitely warrant an article. Slamforeman ( talk) 05:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    A dedicated entry? Erm... no. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 05:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don’t see why not. This Netanyahu scandal might not have enough reliable sources or sustained coverage, but if it did, as is the case with Where is Kate?, an article on the topic would be very helpful (and would probably pass WP:GNG).
    As for WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:AVOIDVICTIM, they could most likely be solved by a light rewrite. Honestly though, I’ve yet to see a specific example of content in the article that violates those guidelines. Slamforeman ( talk) 06:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Slamforeman Just in case you have forgotten that this is an AfD and not a discussion page for what you are presently discussing. Please take Netanyahu related discussions to the appropriate talk page to not diverge from the main topic here,i.e., whether the article Where is Kate? should be retained or not. Regards MSincccc ( talk) 07:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes of course, @ MSincccc. I was just using an example to illustrate why this article should remain. Apologies for any confusion. Slamforeman ( talk) 14:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and boil down this tabloid trash to a one-line entry in the Middleton article with a redirect. It's WP:BLPGOSSIP and won't stand a ten week test, let alone a ten year test. This is an encyclopaedia, not the Daily Mail online. - SchroCat ( talk) 08:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Sure so but we have sufficient coverage on Catherine's recent health issues as well as the Photograph Controversy that gave a new momentum to all the needless speculation. At this point, there is not a need to add anything to the main article. Regards MSincccc ( talk) 08:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Do you also consider the edited photograph that made the Kensington Palace "No Longer A 'Trusted Source'" ( [16]) something that won't stand a ten year test? Bendegúz Ács ( talk) 16:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep The topic of "where is Kate", the photograph and related subjects still received significant coverage from multiple reliable, independent sources. The notability, or suitability, of the topic is not suddenly lost because of the diagnosis. I do support a rename to a more appropriate title. Skyshifter talk 11:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per SchroCat. Chris Troutman ( talk) 11:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete complete and utter tabloid drivel. Polyamorph ( talk) 11:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I am in complete agreement with User:SchroCat above. The article is against the spirit of WP and should never have been created in the first place. Sweetpool50 ( talk) 11:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete under both NOTNEWS and BLPGOSSIP, sadly given excessive weight by media fascinated by the Royal Family. As soon as she announced her diagnosis, coverage of the absence vanished from the media, indicating this entire period was overblown by the media. A few lines in the bio page should be sufficient to include the main points of this period, which is the appropriate summary of the news. -- Masem ( t) 11:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply

    A few lines in the bio page should be sufficient

    Would you include everything related to the edited photograph in the bio page as well? For example, the rare kill notices or that the Kensington Palace is "No Longer A 'Trusted Source'" ( [17])? Bendegúz Ács ( talk) 16:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I agree with the suggestion from SchroCat ( talk). Headhitter ( talk) 12:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • To the best of my knowledge, I have left talk-page notifications of this AfD to editors who contributed to the first AfD, BLPN discussion, deletion review, and second AfD. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 12:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep subject gained significant and WP:LASTING coverage in global media. Any WP:BLPGOSSIP concerns can be addressed via minor rewriting and therefore are WP:SURMOUNTABLE. Frank Anchor 12:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Adding that I consider a redirect and selective merge to Catherine, Princess of Wales as a viable option as well, though my first preference is keep. Frank Anchor 12:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Significant coverae across two months (and counting) is a strong indication of a lasting effect. Frank Anchor 12:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: We do not need an article for tabloid gossip. Drowssap SMM 12:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - As I expressed on the talk page, this article is fundamentally unencyclopedic. It's a longstanding principle that while everything we cover should have been covered by reliable sources, conversely, we are not required to cover everything which is covered by reliable sources. Exercising editorial judgment is our role as Wikipedians. This article fails the WP:10YEARTEST and does not add any value to Wikipedia. A social media feeding frenzy spilling into reliable sources =/= a notable event. One or two sentences on Catherine, Princess of Wales would be more than adequate to cover this non-event. In 10 years, the fact that "there were conspiracy theories and media speculation about Catherine's health and whereabouts before she announced she had cancer" will be enough to tell the reader everything they need to know at an appropriate level of detail and summarization. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 12:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete in favour of a short section in the main article. An article stuffed with WP:RECENTISM on a WP:BLP, purely driven by tabloid journalism and conspiracy theories should never have existed in the first place. It is noticeable that the coverage actually hasn't been WP:LASTING, disappearing to a trickle as soon as the diagnosis was announced, quite apart from the BLPGOSSIP issues with it. Black Kite (talk) 12:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I agree with MASEM and others. This is a perfect example of why an encyclopaedia should wait for the dust to settle before creating articles like this. We are not a news or gossip site. Mentioning briefly in her bio that there was intense media interest in her whereabouts and that she was the subject of conspiracy theories is fine, but this is more than excessive. Lard Almighty ( talk) 12:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep eventually though the article should be redirected to prevent BLP violations. It is best to draftify it for now until a point in which the gossip has died down a bit. An article about her cancer diagnosis might be too short right now and suffer many issues in the current article. ✶Qux yz ✶ 12:21, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    • I believe I was too tentative with my keep. I do still think caution should be exercised and that there are problematic areas of the article. However, throughout all of these discussions, I felt like all of the claims of BLP issues are tangential or blown out of proportion. Deletion arguments at the Horrifying Embarassment and this deletion seem to want to keep Wikipedia classy and sanitized and focus on the 'spirit of the . That is not its goal, it aims to collect all encyclopedic information in a free, neutral, and civil manner. I also doubt that the spirit of policies were so badly violated that the only option is deletion. Having an article about a significant phase of a political figure seems to fit most of those. Also, while I was skimming through the article I only found one key area I would question. It was a sentence describing the agencies as killing the image without elaboration with what the article meant by it specifically. The article does need to be trimmed, though. ✶Qux yz ✶ 01:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and condense any actually relevant information into Catherine, Princess of Wales. My stance is the same if not stronger than it was during the first AfD. The article is an absolute mess behaving in the exact same way as the royal-obsessed media. Wikipedia should be better than that. The cancer diagnosis proves the ridiculous nature of this article; as the speculation reports have subsequently vanished, this article should join them, because that is all it is: a sloppy, rehashed, gossip-riddled BLP violation of an individual's medical privacy that will not be notable a year from now, let alone ten years from now. "Catherine was diagnosed with cancer and the media (including Wikipedia) went crazy until forcing this announcement." That's the only detail that is notable. TNstingray ( talk) 12:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete in favour of a short section in the main article, per Black Kite's reasoning. The media frenzy was certainly significant enough to justify a mention in the main article, but it is not sufficiently notable to justify its own article. — The Anome ( talk) 12:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep for the foreseeable future. In my opinion, NOTNEWS and GOSSIP are negated by the reporting in reliable sources. Personally, I’m not overly worried about BLP violations from keeping this separate, so long as the focus is on the speculation and media frenzy and not on Catherine herself. IMO, there’s enough WP:SIGCOV to establish separate notability here. estar8806 ( talk) ★ 12:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete or heavily selectively merge per NOTNEWS. This is classic tabloid fodder making "news" out of an absence of news. We don't have an article on the March 2024 M25 closure and that will arguably have a greater long-term effect; instead, it gets two sentences in M25 motorway which place it in the context of the 50-year history of the road. You could justify more but not an entire article. Consider the 20-year test—all that will be remembered in 20 years is that she was out of the limelight while undergoing cancer treatment and that's all that any serious biography will say. Not everything that makes the front page of the newspaper needs a Wikipedia article, especially during silly season or slow news days. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    A comparison would perhaps be the late Queen's disappearances in the 1960s when she was pregnant. I'm not sure it's even mentioned anywhere - it's certainly not got it's own articles. Nfitz ( talk) 12:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • delete, just gossip and news, can be a single paragraph in the main article about her. Artem.G ( talk) 12:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete! I think my views on this are already quite well known; I've even been reported for expressing them too vehemently. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 12:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:BLP "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives". The article is pure gossip and facile conspiracy-theory-mongering regurgitated. That sections of the mass media find such regurgitation thinly disguised as 'reporting that people are gossiping' profitable is no reason for Wikipedia to engage in the same: they have to make a profit, we don't. WP:NOTGOSSIP clearly and unambiguously applies too, though frankly I'd have to suggest that the very fact that this 'article' has been permitted to exist as long as it has makes me wonder whether Wikipedia should consider dropping the pretence, along with any claims to be an encyclopaedia, rather than a mere collection of 'whatever lurid speculation we can find on the internet, cobbled together under convenient titles'. If the aim of this project is to do that, it should try to be honest with its readers. We owe them that much. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 12:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - clear violation of so many policies - with both the title and the contect. In addition to BLP that includes [WP:BLPGOSSIP]], WP:AVOIDVICTIM, WP:BLPPRIVACY, WP:CRACKPOT, WP:TABLOID, WP:PROPAGANDA, and WP:NOTSCANDAL. I'm not sure why this wasn't Speedied. Nfitz ( talk) 12:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Because of what happened in the first AfD, it could not be Speedied. The creator of the article went to AfD themselves to see what the consensus of the community was ten minutes after the article was created. In both of the discussions that matter, someone voted keep early on, also preventing a speedy close. So WP:SPEEDY could not apply either after 10 minutes from the article's creation or after four hours had passed from when both of the main nominations occurred. (The second AfD and nomination doesn't matter due to procedural reasons.) -- Super Goku V ( talk) 05:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, per many of the comments above. Two or three sentences in the article about her would suffice. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 12:50, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Nfitz, IgnatiusofLondon and many others. The article was made pre-maturely, and while it "may" have eventually become notable enough to meet NOTRECENT, it definitely won't be. Completely disagree with Estar8806's NOTNEWS and GOSSIP are negated by the reporting in reliable sources, that's the exact opposite of why both those exist. We need NOTNEWS and GOSSIP as pages "because" there is plenty of Reliably sourced info we do not want to include, otherwise we could just point to RS. Soni ( talk) 12:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    For what it's worth, NOTNEWS and NOTGOSSIP were addressed in the first AfD, which closed as Keep. Although not everything reliably reported needs to have an encyclopaedic article, this is really a question of what should, and the general view in that first AfD was "yes, this should". Annoyingly, other than BLP-handwaving, there isn't really much policy-wise we can point to to say "no, this shouldn't". And so, in my view, something needs to be added to WP:BLP expressly about media crazes on living persons. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 13:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    My point was orthogonal to the "Is this article passing NOTNEWS" (which we're currently saying "No" to, per WP:CCC). I was saying "RS cannot be enough to just overcome NOTNEWS by existing" (because otherwise NOTNEWS would be a redundant policy).
    WP:NOTGOSSIP is a policy already. I do agree though, we probably should have the policy amended to adjust for media fads. Soni ( talk) 13:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    (Including @ IgnatiusofLondon) I don't really see a need to try to amend NOTGOSSIP again. NOTGOSSIP is basically an anti-trivia policy on celebs and athletes to keep biography articles from getting cluttered with pointless facts about the person. "Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, matches played, or goals scored warrants inclusion in the biography of that person, only those for which they have notability or for which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest." (Emphasis mine) Even if we ignore that restriction, it would need to be argued that this was not notable or that there would be no reasonable reader interest, which isn't the case either as has passed notability and there are currently 1k daily readers with things on the quieter side. But, if you do feel like policy needs to be modified, I would suggest trying to have NOTGOSSIP modified so it applies to articles that cover events solely/primarily about the person.
    For BLP, I don't see where it can be modified to prohibit an article like this. (The reason? Because any such policy would nearly be guaranteed to be better off as part of NOT instead of BLP and it would be better off to modify NOTGOSSIP than to develop a standalone NOT policy.) Though, BLP could have a section that points to a specific NOT policy. -- Super Goku V ( talk) 05:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I think I agree with most of what you've said. My proposed modification is to WP:BLPGOSSIP, not WP:NOTGOSSIP. I've made some relevant comments about reasonable reader interest etc. at 16:48, 2 April 2024 (reply beginning Per previous commments, in my reading). IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 17:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete in favour of a short section in the main article. This whole affair won't be important in six weeks let alone six years - it is tedious gossip. firefly ( t · c ) 12:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete An absolutely ghastly embarrassment for Wikipedia, tabloid nonsense WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:TABLOID apply. Two sentences in her own article would suffice Theroadislong ( talk) 12:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep this is WP:bludgeoning and WP:forumshopping to the extreme. All the rational for the keep hasn't changed in the last however long but this has stemmed from a bunch of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and all the BLP issues people claim to identify above don't actually identify and BLP issues. Actual issues on the page should be challenged and remedied on the page, not here. microbiologyMarcus petri dish· growths 13:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I will agree. IDONTLIKEIT either, and I think the tone of the article should shift and also include all the controversy and backlash as a result of the subject of the article. But we must remember that we are at Articles for Deletion and there is not a valid deletion rationale for the deletion of the article. Anyone who identifies an actual issue regarding the content of the article with regard to our WP:BLP policy should be encouraged to challenge the content and discuss it on the talk page, as was recommended by the closure of the DRV. Everyone arguing that there is a policy based rationale here is not actually backing up their arguments with policy and examples to the text of the article. I must commend IgnatiusofLondon, the nominator, for their deletion rational which says violates the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP, particularly WP:BLPGOSSIP (emphasis in original) that everyone citing policy seems to overlook. Lets have an actual discussion about that if we must. But the arguments saying it does violate those policies are disingenuous. microbiologyMarcus petri dish· growths 14:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Recentism and tabloid gossip as per per Nfitz, IgnatiusofLondon et al. A few lines in List of conspiracy theories and Middleton's biographical article are all that's needed. Wellington Bay ( talk) 13:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per previous. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 13:09, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep I agree this third AfD is WP:bludgeoning and WP:forumshopping and wasting editors' time. And at least the digital manipulation of the Mother's Day photograph and its impact on fake news discussions is not WP:GOSSIP at all. Rwendland ( talk) 13:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Merge selectively into a section on her main article focusing on the photo manipulation "scandal" and the media fallout, rather than the gossip. I still think this deserves coverage as an interesting PR blunder but at this point I don't think the article is worth keeping. Estreyeria ( talk) 13:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Merge only the photoshopping incident, its reaction, and the cancer diagnosis are not gossip. The rest is unsalvagable. Aaron Liu ( talk) 13:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to Catherine, Princess of Wales. This article is a WP:COATRACK for gossip and speculation regarding a celebrity. The person is evidently notable but what little notable information that exists in this fork can easily fit into a paragraph on the parent article. I also have no opposition to a straightforward deletion on the same rationale. Simonm223 ( talk) 13:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Nope, just nope. This can easily be covered at Catherine, Princess of Wales.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Ganesha811 and HJ Mitchell. This is a 1E with likely zero enduring noteworthiness, worth about two sentences in the Princess' article. JFHJr ( ㊟) 14:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per IanMacM. St Anselm ( talk) 14:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:NOTGOSSIP and many other comments above. One or two lines covering her cancer diagnosis in her main bio are all that's relevant to Wikipedia; the fever-pitch gossip and breaking-news reporting of mad conspiracy theories have no place in an encyclopedia. If royal historians pick up on this incident and publish proper fact-checked accounts of it then we might have the basis for an article, but we absolutely should not be basing content on living persons off of celebrity news reporting. Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 14:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Ivanvector and various others above. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:BLPGOSSIP and many comments above. Reliable sources have tabloid and social-media-copying departments these days as well, so the existence of coverage in reliable sources should not preclude deletion under WP:NOTGOSSIP/ WP:NOTNEWS. Kwpolska ( spam me/ contributions) 14:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: it's not appropriate for us to host an article with this title, there's no content that it would be appropriate to merge, and it's not a useful redirect.— S Marshall  T/ C 14:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Move to Catherine, Princess of Wales public absence controversy, Kategate, Public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales — The issue is that this topic has a breadth of scope that must encompass unfounded conspiracy theories. It is that breadth of scope, however, that warrants a separate article. If editors are cognizant of falsehoods, this could persist as an article. The alleged health intrusion and an article I recently read in The New York Times associating Kate Middleton conspiracy theories with Russia solidified my stance. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 14:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete First, it's a terrible, uninformative title. Which could raise the possibility of simply renaming it. Most of the article consists of material that should be in Wikipedia somewhere. But with the long term view in mind, there is no reason for this particular way of bundling the material. North8000 ( talk) 15:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The contents of the article is a mashup of "everything Kate related for a 9 week period" including things that are otherwise unrelated, under a very bad useless title that doesn't describe the content. History will show that what's here is the first two months of her cancer story plus an unrelated "doctored photo" story. These two topics need to be covered in two places under under intelligent titles. 19:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC) North8000 ( talk) 19:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete for the litany of reasons in the Delete votes above mine. Fred Zepelin ( talk) 15:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Lean delete—I'm inclined to doubt that this "controversy" passes the WP:10 year test. ( t · c) buidhe 15:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Buidhe: the core of [WP:10 year test]] is to wait instead of rushing to deletion "Just wait and see. Remember there is no deadline, and consensus can change later on. Editors writing today do not have a historical perspective on today's events, and should not pretend to have a crystal ball... Above all else, editors should avoid getting into edit wars or contentious deletion discussions when trying to deal with recentism." It can't be used to justify a rush to deletion, it literally says above all else avoid rushing to deletion. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Well, a lot of Diana-related stuff apparently passes the 20-year test…who’s to say this is different? RadioactiveBoulevardier ( talk) 08:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Content and title can be addressed by editing and renaming. The deletion advocates have advanced no coherent, policy-based argument why deletion is necessary and other editorial measures will not suffice. Jclemens ( talk) 15:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Of note, no less than a dozen editors who opined an unqualified bolded delete opinion have mentioned merging part of the content, including multiple administrators who should know better: Per WP:CWW that would violate our license. The admin closing this discussion will undoubtedly soldier through and notice this, but those !voters doing this deserve the courtesy of being informed that they didn't vote for what they believe they did. Jclemens ( talk) 16:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Jclemens Are you seriously claiming that no merge or copying within Wikipedia is legal? Aaron Liu ( talk) 16:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Preserving the article history for any merged text is necessary so that the original content creators can have any kind of attribution. However, I think the delete !voters are arguing something else—not reusing any content from this article, but writing a brief summary on the other article. ( t · c) buidhe 16:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don't think the article history contains any particularly libelous or privacy-violating to necessitate a deletion of the history if we merge part of it. Aaron Liu ( talk) 16:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Even if it did, there are specific history deletion tools to that deleting the entire history would be unnecessary. Jclemens ( talk) 16:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    BS. All that is needed in a mere is to include references to atribution like a {{ merge from}} or similar template on the talk page to uphold the contribution part of the license. —  Masem ( t) 16:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    ... which in turn requires that that history remain extant somewhere to document the contributions, such as in a redirect (that is, not deletion), hence my original point stands. Jclemens ( talk) 19:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Well we may not have to use the exact text here, instead writing a wholly new summary using exist references. Or if needed, a redirect is created and protected from recreation. I don't think there is an argument that material here violates BLP in such a way to require revdel, so the redirect option is appropriate. But it is implied by the votes here editors don't want this recreated. —  Masem ( t) 20:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Sure: editing, redirection, merging, and renaming are all valid ways to re-shape the article to better reflect the new information. WP:MAD has been in plain sight explaining how to do this for 16+ years now. Key point: it's still not actually deletion even if it all goes away and/or is transmogrified beyond recognition. Jclemens ( talk) 21:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    NOATT seems to make it clear that attribution is needed if material by other contributors is duplicated. So I agree with Jclemens in that I don't see how we can delete the content and attribution, but then merge some of it to a separate article. -- Super Goku V ( talk) 06:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Where attribution is not needed (guideline, the same section): Content rewritten in one's own words does not need attribution. However, duplicating material by other contributors that is sufficiently creative to be copyrightable under US law (as the governing law for Wikipedia) requires attribution. As pointed out by replies in this sub-thread ( 1, 2, 3, 4), rewriting from sources is a more accurate interpretation of those delete recommendations than copying from Where is Kate?. Flatscan ( talk) 04:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    So:
    • Most Delete-supporting editors mentioning a merge* to Catherine, Princess of Wales seem to have in mind at most a paragraph. (*that is, saying that the topic should be summarised and treated at that article)
    • The current coverage of the topic at Catherine, Princess of Wales includes a paragraph on the Mother's Day photograph (under the subheading Photograph controversy) and this sentence (under the subheading Health): The subsequent speculation about Catherine's absence and health prompted various conspiracy theories and attracted extensive media attention.
    • I suspect this coverage is sufficient to satisfy most Delete-supporting editors who mention a merge.
    • Should anything else need to be added to Catherine, Princess of Wales, it will take two minutes to locate and add any of the multitude of reliable secondary sources covering this topic, without having to recycle any sentences from Where is Kate?.
    These facts considered, I don't think there is a sufficient amount to salvage from Where is Kate? for inclusion at Catherine, Princess of Wales that precludes deletion. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 10:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Indeed, I don't think it is correct that a dozen editors who bolded delete mentioned merging the article. For instance, Black Kite says Delete in favour of a short section in the main article. That is not suggesting anything here be merged to the main article, it is suggesting that a new short section be written. If you want to get there, you wouldn't start from here. No text need be copied from here. This text can be wholly ignored to do that. Note that it is very much not against the license to write new text, in your own words, in an article even if it collates information, and summarises text, from elsewhere. That is what most of Wikipedia is! Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 11:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I agree that Jclemens's count is off. Using Ctrl-F, I found few delete supporters recommending "copy"/"copied" (0) or "merge"/"merging" ( 1 before his count; 2, 3 after). Flatscan ( talk) 04:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    There was also a lot of this before the photograph, so maybe also prepend After rumors surrounding her lack of public appearances in some form before that paragraph. Aaron Liu ( talk) 11:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, leaning Draftify but keep name Notability of this went down like a lead balloon, probably because all those who reported on it would be hypocrites to talk about the coverage they took part in, and not many sources have been covering the coverage (what I think the article should be about). TheSpacebook ( talk) 15:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Wikipedia:Notability#Notability is not temporary Aaron Liu ( talk) 15:27, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    If it was notable once its always notable. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    What I mean specifically is that the topic has not sustained its notability, as per WP:SUSTAINED. TheSpacebook ( talk) 20:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    What do you mean? The topic continues to receive coverage, articles from the last 24 hours have even been linked to. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep, this isn't a particularly good article but it does appear to more than satisfy out criteria for a topic worthy of a stand-alone article. Content issues and not liking the name are not reason to delete. The Delete votes appear to be largely based on IDONTLIKEIT and blatant snobbery despite the rather lukewarm attempts to point to NOTNEWS (which actually seems to support keeping it) and NOTGOSSIP (which doesn't seem to support the argument for deleting it as strongly as some think)... "Ask yourself whether the source is reliable;" Yes it is "whether the material is being presented as true;" Yes it is "and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." Yes it is. For those making the 10 year argument... Do you honestly think that a biography of Middleton or the Royal Family published in ten years is going to not include this topic? Because I don't. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    • Not News applies as this was a burst of coverage that immediately died down as soon as she revealed why she had been absent from the public presence. With 20/20 hindsight, it should be clear that what was covered under that burst had no lasting significance and had several BLP violating issues. Remember that the GNG also warns if bursts of coverage, and even this did pass the GNG, that's not a guarantee of having a standalone article when other policies state otherwise. —  Masem ( t) 16:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
      • We're multiple months in now, there have been multiple bursts of coverage. Lasting significance has been established. Can you elaborate on the Not News argument? This doesn't meet the original reporting criteria, this doesn't meet the News reports criteria, this doesn't meet The Who's who criteria, and it doesn't meet the gossip and diary criteria... So if it doesn't fall under any of the four categories which make up not news what is the not news based argument? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
        • The celebrity gossip aspect of NOTNEWS applies, no questions asked. Every detail of a celebrity's life (of which Middleton is) should not be documented, even if that is something done by reliable sources. —  Masem ( t) 16:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
          • But we aren't documenting every detail, only those for which they have notability or for which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest. This would seem to clearly fall under the latter. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Only the photo scandal and cancer announcement seem to have notability. The rest can just be summarized as "After rumors surrounding her lack of public appearances,". Aaron Liu ( talk) 17:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Earlier you said merge, now you are saying that there are not only one but two notable topics? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            What? Non-sequitur. Aaron Liu ( talk) 11:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            How is pointing out that you've gone from arguing that there is no notable topic here to arguing that there are two notable topics here a non-sequitur? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 14:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Okay, I meant noteworthy. Aaron Liu ( talk) 15:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            The article is excessively detailed for what amounts to being one large piece of gossip (why was Middleton absent for several months). We have a definitive answer to that question with her announcement, so any media article that is talking to speculation prior to that is no longer a valid source to consider for sourcing (the idea that that speculation is moot). —  Masem ( t) 17:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            That is a unique take on what constitutes a valid source, thats is also not a piece of gossip... Many of the explanations were gossip but the question itself wasn't gossip, it was a valid question which turned out to have a valid answer. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 19:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Fairly I think trying to frame it around the media circus related to her absence may be a topic, as there seems to be a number of sources taking the media to task over how it handled this situation, but that would require rewriting this to remove a lot of the gossip facts that do not need the depth of coverage currently given. Mostly this would require more secondary sources speaking to the media circus factors. And that might require a TNT approach to write. But to add, it probably is easy to sum that up to Middleton's article for the time being. Do we have an article that details that media's fascination with the Royals and and their adjunct? Might be time to think about that... —  Masem ( t) 20:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Middleton's article is already lengthy, it seems like doing it there just to break it out again in a week or two isn't what TNT is for... TNT isn't for the "might" its for when you're certain that it can't be done otherwise. Most of the academic coverage is of the Royal family's cultivation and use of the media, people seem to understand why they're fascinating. The royals get wall to wall coverage because the royals have manipulated the media and social ecosystem for decades to justify their aristocratic privileges and make sure that they are never outside the media's attention. If this does get merged perhaps some belongs at Never complain, never explain, there is coverage along those lines [18]. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            The reason I call for TNT if this was to be refocused on the media spectacle is that the overall approach to the article would need to be to literally turn the topic inside out as it's written now to frame the media first and foremost and bury the nitpick details of speculation. And it does sound like a topic on the Royals and the media is ripe to be created. —  Masem ( t) 21:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Masem I think that there could possibly be an encyclopedic article about media coverage of the royal family. But do the serious, preferably peer-reviewed sources exist yet? And would this incident if given proper due weight even form a significant past of such an article? A woman took some time off, was seen at a store and in a car, and turns out to be ill. Compare to Megan Markle or Princess Diana or even Prince Andrew. The doctored photo might possibly be a sign of hubris or desperation or vanity or ignorance, with a very slight chance it could be worked into a discussion of the mutually beneficial arrangement the palace has with Fleet Street maybe. Again though -- Harry felt he had to chose between his mother and his wife, Diana *died* and Prince Andrew was thoroughly disgraced with extreme prejudice. These events are notable. Thinking you know more about Photoshop than you do? Hmm. At most it could be one of several examples in a list of examples of astonishingly mindless coverage. Elinruby ( talk) 08:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            It seems we have a lot of people who oppose coverage on any page at all beyond a single sentence or two... That is my main worry, that even if we decide to merge the content elsewhere people will continue to try and censor it. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 22:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
┌──────────────────────────────┘
Now that I have time to look, there's a section British royal family#Media and criticism that along with the two articles given as seealso, could be the founding of a good article about "Media coverage of the British royal family". I am sure that aspects of the media's coverage related to Princess Diana's death could have significant expansion.
what is key is that an article that focuses on the media aspects would not go into as many details into the personal facets of the royal family outside of key important points (here: Middleton had disappeared from public view for several months, at one point having the doctored Mother's day photo that led to more concerns, but all ending with her announcing her diagonsis, maybe 2-3 sentences *max* on those personal details), and instead the focus should be on the criticism of the media's over-reaction to her absence. What we don't need, for example, is the massive amount of speculation told from a primary source perspective (like the current Speculation section) or red herrings like the Windsor Farm shop video section; that's regardless of whether this is kept or if content is merged to a separate article. —  Masem ( t) 00:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
      • Also note the assertion that anything died down is mistaken, its easy to find very recent coverage [19] [20], so as you can see the impact is ongoing. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
        • That coverage seems like ongoing gossip-type coverage of the Royal family rather than actual coverage of the absence. No one is talking about the absence anymore because there's an honest and rational reason for it, and the media had overreacted with massive speculation. —  Masem ( t) 03:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
          • Except that it talks about the legacy/impact of the absence. You can't separate the absence from the cancer. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 14:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Actually, I don't think much of the conspiracy theory nonsense and tabloid gossip would be included, because most of it was complete bollocks. And I say that as someone who is no fan whatsoever of the royals, despite being a Brit. Black Kite (talk) 17:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • I don't think the argument has to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT/ WP:CRYBLP, but rather that this type of article, which is clearly an edge case, should be precluded by the policies cited (what I call their "spirit" in my nomination statement) by virtue of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, and if this type of article isn't obviously precluded, the policies should be clarified accordingly. At AfD, we have some discretion for policy interpretation, which is consistent with many of the Delete !votes. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 16:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    And what type of article is this? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    As I suggested at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Proposed expansion of WP:BLPGOSSIP, this is a media craze about an event in a living person's life, which can be adequately summarised for an encyclopedia reader's interests in the living person's article. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 16:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The topic here includes the "media craze," (not sure I've seen any RS describe it exactly that way though, they seem to be less aggressive and hyperbolic about it) that is currently the primary notable element. But more importantly not a single person other here other than you has said that media crazes are categorically not notable, nobody else is discussing whether articles about media crazes should be precluded by the spirit of the citied policies... Unless they're doing it in some sort of code. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:52, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Having invested so much emotional energy ovrr this fiasco, I am concerned that many of the Delete !votes here seem to circle back to arguments made and addressed at the first AfD, with simple nods to WP:NOTNEWS and WP:10YT, which I argued against. But yes, this is my argument: media crazes about an event in a living person's life, which can be adequately summarised for an encyclopedia reader's interests in the living person's article, violate the spirit of WP:NOT/ WP:BLP. This wasn't a rationale explicitly expressed at the first AfD. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 20:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep but rename -- the name of the article is ridiculous and unprofessional, but the content is well sourced coverage of an extremely widely-covered controversy across international news (and particularly in the U.S. media by mainstream, reliable sources). This isn't a short term, one-off event; this story dominated U.S. media coverage for weeks. "I don't like it." isn't a good enough reason to delete; nor is "The international media was mean to my favorite princess." ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 15:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, per NOTGOSSIP, SUSTAINED, BLPVICTIM, NOPAGE. If it's possible to cover this topic on existing pages, we should do that (and we can and do). We definitely do not need the tabloidy minutiae currently in the article anywhere else on this site. I would say many aspects of high-profile celebrities have enough IRS significant coverage, including lasting coverage, to meet GNG amply, yet we recognize these things don't need their own pages. What makes this any different? JoelleJay ( talk) 16:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Ah look! Something new in the letter jumble. What is "BLPVICTIM" it clearly can't be WP:AVOIDVICTIM because that doesn't apply here so what is it? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization. Sounds like it applies to me... this is after all fundamentally about the media frenzy over the lack of an event. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 17:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
How would writing an article about a media frenzy that is no longer happening prolong or participate in that media frenzy? -- Jfhutson ( talk) 18:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
It literally is participating in a "dead trend"? Just that the frenzy's gone doesn't mean making an article about the topic doesn't count as giving unwanted attention to an LP. Aaron Liu ( talk) 19:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
WP:AVOIDVICTIM is for "a person noteworthy only for one or two events" because it's inconceivable that this article could bring "unwanted attention" to the Princess. She is a public figure; that doesn't mean there are no rules but it does mean we don't have to worry about our article bringing her to the attention to someone who's never heard of her. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 19:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The subject does not appear to be the victim of a crime or of any relevant actions by another person. Let alone being primarily notable for such. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 19:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep First, it is unclear to me what a valid reason for deletion might be. The article subject is notable (there is no shortage of RS coverage); the article content itself is related to a valid, particularized subject--the disappearance from public view of one of the most public royals is certainly something which is identifiable as a subject; and the "BLP" claims seem hoary and ill-founded. Second, we have had two nominations and a deletion review in short order. We should respect the time and effort which went into those discussions by not continually holding the article in abeyance. Third, it's worth noting that this is an active subject! All we know for certain of her whereabouts is that Kate went into the hospital after Christmas and a video was released of her at the end of March. In the intervening time, the Royal family, one of the most powerful and well-connected institutions in the world, released misleading information to the press (in the form of a public statement which lied about when she went into the hospital and why), released a faked photo purportedly taken by the prince of wales and when the forgery was discovered blamed Kate for the "editing" mishaps (to be clear, this was a composite image likely from photos taken in 2023 doctored to alter the appearance of her children so the actual date would be difficult to discern), and countenanced to be released a telephoto image of "Kate" in a car with William. The Sun and TMZ (both owned by one individual now) released a video purporting to be her walking in late March which attributed to a photographer who disowned the material. Something is afoot. Corundum Conundrum (CC) 16:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Half of what you said is your personal opinion, basically advocating for keeping the article since the monarchy is dodgy in your opinion. First of all, what did they lie about in their initial announcement? And what's your proof that they "blamed Kate" for the photoshop fail? Can't a woman take responsibility for her mistakes or are we supposed to all rally around the damsel in distress? Keivan.f Talk 16:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I don't know where I said the monarchy is "dodgy". I'm also not sure what you're talking about vis a vis damsels in distress. Corundum Conundrum (CC) 16:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
You implied that the palace has thrown her under the bus by blaming her for the photoshop fail, which (again) is your opinion. We don't need to have an article dedicated to a person's whereabouts since some people might be having concerns about her wellbeing that are not necessarily rooted in reality. Keivan.f Talk 04:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete This article is a WP:COATRACK which will invite only more gossip and nonsense to be added to a page concerning a living person. WP:BLPGOSSIP clearly applies and so does WP:NOTNEWS as the coverage concerning the so-called conspiracies ceased once she made the announcement. 10 years from now no one would care about details concerning her medical leave. It will be reduced to a footnote in the overall scheme of her life. And we cannot keep the article in the expectation that something is going to happen. We don't have a WP:CRYSTALBALL. Keivan.f Talk 16:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
WP:10YT literally says don't rush to delete it because you don't have a crystal ball: "Just wait and see. Remember there is no deadline, and consensus can change later on. Editors writing today do not have a historical perspective on today's events, and should not pretend to have a crystal ball... Above all else, editors should avoid getting into edit wars or contentious deletion discussions when trying to deal with recentism." Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
WP:10YT states: "Will someone ten or twenty years from now be confused about how this article is written? In ten or twenty years will this addition still appear relevant? If I am devoting more time to it than other topics in the article, will it appear more relevant than what is already here?" The answer to all of that is pretty clear. This article is not even relevant at the moment. The woman has cancer and is undergoing chemo. There's nothing here to report upon, at least not in detail. Keivan.f Talk 16:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
So do you want to re-write the article or do you want to delete it? Because that part of 10YT is about balancing what is in an article, that is not the part about deleting articles. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The foundation of this article, which raises questions about the whereabouts of a living (and not missing) person, is wrong and even with WP:TNT you would not be able to get much out of it. Keivan.f Talk 04:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep Augmentation/retitling are reasonable suggestions, but deletion seems too far. The reaction to Kate's temporarily-unclear whereabouts was a notable, prominent, and somewhat unique phenomenon. Whether it was tacky or not, it occurred. SecretName101 ( talk) 16:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete; feeling too lazy to type a full rationale, but my reasoning is similar to HJ Mitchell. Celebrity gossip doesn't deserve an article. For some reason, I'm quite sure this vote would be more unanimous if this were any other celebrity, say, Rihanna or Swift; the Royal family should be treated no different. DFlhb ( talk) 16:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: This article is a clear violation of WP:BLPGOSSIP. The photoshopping incident can be moved into the main article but the rest clearly should be deleted. Loki ( talk) 17:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per many editors above. This is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid newspaper. If you want policy then WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLPGOSSIP will do. Phil Bridger ( talk) 17:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per many rationales expressed above, specifically those that cite WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLPGOSSIP. Little reason to think WP:LASTING applies.-- Trystan ( talk) 17:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete While news media covered speculation about Kate Middleton's whereabouts, there wasn't sufficient analysis to create a good article. Even if there was, the manner in which the article was created would justify WP:TNT: blow it up and start again. TFD ( talk) 17:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Clearly highly notable meme. Russians boosted it? Then talk about this within. That's part of the notability. Hyperbolick ( talk) 18:17, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: For what it's worth, I came into this thinking I would support delete, but after reading the article and this page I am now pretty convinced there is no reason to delete, and that the article is an interesting and informative piece that could be read 10 years from now by one interested in the monarchy and public affairs in this decade. The nominator points to the spirit of WP:BLPGOSSIP as the primary rationale for deletion. So I thought, regardless of that policy's text, what is the spirit of WP:BLPGOSSIP, or what is the reason I believe people should avoid repeating gossip? Google says gossip is "casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true." The harm of repeating gossip (even if you do not believe it to be true) is that it spreads potentially untrue speech which reflects poorly on people. But in this case, there is no speculation in the article about details of the princess's life that might reflect poorly on her that anyone could think is true. Everything that was mysterious has been made public by the person in question, the truth is not scandalous, and surely she would have eventually made it public even if she had not been forced. There is description of gossip (that she got plastic surgery or there was marital trouble) that happened during her absence, but as of today no one is continuing to gossip about that because the true reason for the absence came to light. It would be a reason for precluding those details while they were being gossiped about, but not once they were disproven (and we could even just delete the details of the gossip and simply say that there was speculation if there is still a WP:BLPGOSSIP concern). The only people that the facts in the article reflect poorly on are the paparazzi, the gossip magazine writers who harassed her during her absence, and the overly curious public. As for WP:NOTNEWS, I really don't think it's accurate that this is not an event of enduring notability. Surely this will be in the minds of many people the next time there is some kind of royal flare up, or someone of note gets cancer, or someone public disappears. The article's "Impact" section does a good job of using reliable sources to demonstrate that it has WP:LASTING impact and is a "catalyst" for several things (there are people under official investigation, there is an increase in cancer awareness, there are conspiracy theories and official reactions to conspiracy theories, there were changes in views on the monarchy, and many notable people apologized for their commentary). -- Jfhutson ( talk) 18:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I would point out that part of the concern for WP:BLPGOSSIP, including my own, is that it is both unnecessary to produce a content fork about tabloid speculation and beneath the dignity of the project. I have no great love for the subject and no particular interest in protecting her any more than any other BLP but I would not want such tawdry minutia about anyone on an encyclopedia. Simonm223 ( talk) 19:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Re WP:CONTENTFORK, if there is a fork you would need to point to the other page with the same scope (right now Catherine, Princess of Wales has an appropriate summary style pointer to the page under "Health." I don't think the overall subject, of the Princess of Wales disappearing for several months and then announcing to the world that she has cancer, is tawdry minutia. The announcement was covered on the front page of the New York Times as "putting a grim coda on months of rumors about her condition..." -- Jfhutson ( talk) 19:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Black Kite, AndyTheGrump, ianmacm and quite a lot of others. This clearly fails on multiple WP:NOT grounds which are clearly expresed above. Some good faith keep votes argue that the subject is notable. No secondary sourcing is brought to bear, but supposing we accept some such exists, should the article be kept? The answer is no. This, in fact, falls foul of WP:N, which states:

    A topic is presumed to merit an article if:
    1. It meets either the general notability guideline (GNG) below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific notability guideline (SNG); and
    2. It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy.

    Both arms of WP:N must be met to be notable per Wikipedia policy. Thus it is irrelevant whether the article might meet GNG or not. As long as it is excluded by WP:NOT, it is not notable for an encyclopaedic article. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 19:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Wait, are you saying that you have evaluated exactly none of the sources but that you don't need to because no matter how good they are and how many there are it doesn't matter? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    No, I didn't say that. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    You said you weren't even aware of the existence of secondary sources. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I said none had been brought to bear. The two you posted above, [21] and [22] are primary sources. No one else has posted any in this discussion. I also did not say "no matter how good they are". If a source were to be good enough that it refuted the WP:NOT arguments, then notability would no longer be excluded under WP:NOT. But that is the bar: you have to show that the NOT arguments do not hold, or else this subject is not, in fact, notable for an encyclopaedic article. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Generally what people do before commenting in a deletion discussion is review the article and its sources, you shouldn't expect them to spoon fed to you. Coverage of coverage is secondary, articles can contain both primary and secondary coverage. Its already been demonstrated that none of the NOT arguments hold. If you would like to try and make an argument which can hold please do so now. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Generally one also should not assume this has not been done. But if you are determined to continue to misread what I have written and to put words in my mouth, I suppose I shall leave it there with you. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Generally I assume it has been done, that is why I was shocked to see you apparently declaring that you had not done so. Which of the NOT arguments do you think has held up under scrutiny? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 21:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment If we delete this article, will there be a case for Where is Where is Kate? Edwardx ( talk) 20:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I feel (and fear) infinity raising its ugly head here. Phil Bridger ( talk) 20:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    With 71 participants in the first AfD, 45 in the second, and 75 and counting in this third AfD, this is not a bad question to ask... IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 22:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - We know where she is & why the previous secrecy. The rumors are irrelevant. GoodDay ( talk) 20:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I agree,it's a massive exaggeration to say that a photoshopped image( which has been done since Queen Victoria's reign) raised questions on relevance, integrity and consistency of the monarchy. The issue here is people demanded to know her private medical details hence the media frenzy, hsyteria and people have varying views on its impact ( see rolling stone contributer assertion that they ought to disclose more due to extensive international coverage), but i would suggest using reliable sources that actually have dealt with the monarchy as an institution over the years, all other reliable sources simply have opinions but if you would listen to, read from royal biographers or journalist who work with them closely you would realise this is a non-issue within the broader aspect of the monarchy which operates within the confines of its creation. I've just joined the wikipedia editors community but i would like to point out that the articles makes no reference to the fact that William missed his Godfather's memorial due to being informed on Catherine's cancer diagnosis. Further it makes light of the commentators who were not conspiratorial by referring to them as Kate's supporters. Ella Nya ( talk) 13:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Not only is it gossip, but the article wasn't even reporting about the gossip phenomenon but just perpetuating the gossip itself. While it technically meets WP:GNG, it is clearly excluded by WP:NOT, and (as per Sirfurboy above) is thus not suitable for an article. Chaotıċ Enby ( talk · contribs) 20:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. The "meme", if such it can be called, was astroturfing, with most of the traditional news media publishing opinion-tinged analyses of how foolish it was, and using the photo as a teachable moment on the high standards for authenticity that they have instituted because of the rise of first promotional photoshopping and subsequently AI-generated images. Since the public statement by this BLP subject that she has cancer, this emphasis in reliable sources on the social media phenomenon as having been baseless and ill-advised has been even more marked, with several articles suggesting misinformation by state-sponsored bad actors. And the basis of the "story" has collapsed, replaced by the context of her illness. It's not an independent encyclopaedic topic discussed in reliable sources, but rather an episode in the "health" part of her private life, and per BLP and UNDUE we must follow the best sources and therefore not elevate it in importance. IMO it shouldn't even be a subheading, much less an independent article, and the current title should either be deleted or redirect to an article on photo and news agency rules against manipulated photos and the history behind those rules, or some other broad topic related to press and/or social media coverage of people in the public eye. Yngvadottir ( talk) 21:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • For heavens sake: Delete, Delete, Delete Huldra ( talk) 21:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and Redirect to Catherine, Princess of Wales#Health where the appropriate level of coverage already is. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 21:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Speedy Keep the first AdD closed as keep less than two weeks ago and was upheld in deletion review. WP:SKCRIT 2c: making nominations of the same page with the same arguments immediately after they were strongly rejected in a recently closed deletion discussion. The information that has been reported since the first AfD, such as speculators being correct and the issue of her health being worse than what was being reported by the palace, or if the affair was boosted as some kind of Russian disinformation campaign, only adds to the notability of the event.
Failing speedy, Keep. The first AfD already established the massive amount of significant coverage this affair received on the front pages of worldwide top-tier reliable sources.
This affair and article is not notable as a detailed accounting of the various surgeries and illnesses of the woman that crosses BLP lines. Rather, it's first a very prominent example of (some subset of, pro or con, true or false, good or bad) a conspiracy, conspiracy theory, media circus, missing white woman syndrome, Category:Royal scandals in the United Kingdom, etc. The coverage and internal handling of the event is itself notable, not each doctor's visit taken by the princess.
The second important facet of the article is the historic secrecy and " Never complain, never explain" public relations strategy of the British royal family crashing up against the modern information economy and strongly or lightly held criticism of the monarchy. This is clearly a trend and current historic moment/decade for the Monarchy of the United Kingdom, what with Brexit, Scottish independence referendums, Megxit, Prince Andrew & the Epstein Scandal, death of the Queen, coronation of the first new monarch in nearly 70 years, subsequent cancer diagnosis of Charles III, etc. This lens of the event is covered prominently by reliable sources and explicitly lists the veil of secrecy and failed PR around her health as one of the top crises currently enveloping the post-Elizabeth British monarchy as a whole. This view of the topic easily meets the WP:10YEARTEST and is sure to feature prominently in any history of this period of the monarchy.
If the votes go towards deletion, my preferred WP:ATD is to rename/merge the article to Mother's Day photograph of Catherine, Princess of Wales. The photograph is itself plainly notable, similar to Mug shot of Donald Trump or any of the Category:2020s photographs. That article could explain the photo's issuance and "kill notice" retraction plus some of the "Where is Kate?" background.
PK-WIKI ( talk) 21:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
How is someone famous releasing an edited photo even a thing worth more than a sentence? Some phones are doing that automatically now. It's not like they painted out Prince Trotsky or something - which surely is more noteworthy, and seems to get a single sentence; that's an example of something having longevity! There has to be some factor other than nutters nutting. Nfitz ( talk) 22:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Just because you don't see the value doesn't mean it doesn't exist... Thats why we generally defer to WP:RS when it comes to determining what proportional coverage is. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 22:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Censorship of images in the Soviet Union already exists; let's hope we don't need to create Censorship of images by the British monarchy. The Mother's Day photograph is worth more than a sentence due to its sustained coverage by reliable sources and their coverage of news agencies issuing an unprecedented "kill notice" for the royal photograph. PK-WIKI ( talk) 22:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
There are multiple deletion rationales that have been advanced at this AfD which were not or were hardly advanced at the first AfD, including WP:BLP and WP:BLPGOSSIP. We are therefore not dealing with the same arguments, and of course the other major event since the first AfD is the announcement of the princess' cancer diagnosis, which especially prompted a strong reaction and recontextualisation of the article at the second AfD. Coupled with the appetite for a fresh AfD expressed at the deletion review, I don't think speedy keep criteria apply, and the community seems happy to ignore WP:RENOM.
I'm not convinced that this will be remembered as a historic moment in the history of the monarchy akin to the other events and news stories you mention. Nonetheless, there is obviously relevance for conspiracy, conspiracy theory, media circus, missing white woman syndrome, never complain, never explain, and republicanism in the United Kingdom. But what about the topic, as a case study, merits a standalone article, rather than any brief mention/treatment in these separate articles, with a longer section at Catherine, Princess of Wales? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 11:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - ultimately, this entire artificial palaver is a footnote to the Princess's health, which is properly discussed in her main article. We are not Paris Match, we don't need this level of breaking-news minutiae, especially when the truth is now known and understood. GenevieveDEon ( talk) 21:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:BLP, WP:GOSSIP, WP:NOTTHENEWS. Xxanthippe ( talk) 22:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC). reply
  • Delete without prejudice to a limited amount of the material being merged. This is overcoverage of a tabloid invention. Having an article makes us complicit in the British tabloids' efforts to reify it into a thing. It is not a thing. There is no subject called "Where is Kate?" and there won't be unless, say, somebody were to write a book and give it that title. The frenzied speculation can be mentioned in the article about her. The way the British tabloid press completely shat the bed and had to rapidly reverse ferret, while blaming everybody other than themselves, can be mentioned in appropriate articles about the (very dignified) history of the British press. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 22:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I'm a little worried that my !vote might be misunderstood as suggesting that a rename could solve this, so I'd like to clarify that I don't believe that. There is no change of title that could address the fundamental problem here. Not only is there no subject called "Where is Kate?", I don't believe that there is a discrete, stand-alone topic here at all. What we have here are aspects of other topics that need to be covered, in a proportionate way, as parts of those other topics' articles. We are already doing that, so this article largely redundant. As I said before, anything that is worth merging can be. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 17:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep - the more that this goes on, the more that my position on the matter is settled. Many of the !votes on this article are close to WP:IDONTLIKEIT because of the subject of this article - WP:NOTGOSSIP only pertains to insignificant matter, which this is not. This will also likely be useful to future readers as a key example of how social media caused a conspiracy theory to go out of control so WP:CRYSTALBALL shouldn't apply here. WP should only make decisions on articles based on the Three Pillars. It's not original research, it's clearly verifiable, that just means that it comes down to NPOV, which is what most oppose !votes are about. One look at the article and it's clearly neutral, so it should stay. Swordman97 talk to me 22:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete To reiterate what I said in the previous AfD, the article is a blatant violation of WP:BLP and WP:GOSSIP. Even if it is top level news sources doing the celebrity gossip, it is still celebrity gossip nonetheless. And gossip based on pure speculation and not evidence, the worst kind of gossip WP:NOT policy violation. The article should never have been allowed in the first place as a split from the primary biographical subject. Silver seren C 22:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. We just had this discussion. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 23:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete but merge some information into the main article. The fact that there was much speculation is notable, and can be mentioned in the main article. What is not notable, however, is each of the particular theories and gossip; listing them fails WP:DUE and WP:BLPGOSSIP. Much of the Initial speculation and Reaction and increased coverage sections, and a good amount of the Windsor Farm Shop video and Reaction to propagation of conspiracy theories sections, contain such theories. Essentially, this article is just a big article of reactions, mixed together with a few good sections (the ones actually describing the situation). We should mention what is notable enough (that is, information about what actually happened, and not the speculation) in the main article, but that doesn't need its own article. Gödel2200 ( talk) 00:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Clear keep: Her inadequately explained period of absence from public appearances, and the way it was handled by her and her spokespeople, and the interest in the subject from the press and the general public, were the focus of a very large amount of coverage in independent reliable sources worldwide. Indeed, practically all broad-readership independent reliable sources covered it in substantial depth, and it would have been a disservice to readers if they had not. This is an obviously notable subject. —⁠ ⁠ BarrelProof ( talk) 02:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    As per the first AfD closure, my nomination statement, and Sirfurboy above, the notability of the topic isn't really under dispute: across the discussions, only a minority of editors have argued that this article isn't reliably sourced using secondary sources. Rather, the question is whether this topic falls into Wikipedia's scope. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 10:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    In this AfD the word notability currently appears 25 times and notable 34 times outside of this chain of comments. It seems like that makes discussing the notability or not understandable, despite the first AfD deemed notability not a problem. -- Super Goku V ( talk) 08:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    On Notability:
    As I am mentioned here, I'll clarify. There is often confusion between the General Notability Guidelines and the concept of Notability. GNG is where we get the requirement for significant coverage in multiple independent reliable secondary sources. However, notability is not established by meeting GNG alone. Notability for an encyclopaedic article relies upon meeting GNG and not having the article excluded under WP:NOT. Thus what I said is that even if GNG is met then this article is still not notable for an encyclopaedic article, because it is excluded under WP:NOT. That is the policy. So it is not notable. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 09:22, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    On Secondary Sourcing:
    I also did not say this article is reliably sourced using secondary sources. I cautioned that secondary sourcing had not been discussed in this AfD, and merely hypothesised that sufficient secondary sourcing may exist. On the matter of sources, I note that the question of primary and secondary sourcing is not nearly as cut and dried as most seem to think. Newspaper reports are generally primary sources. See, for instance WP:PRIMARYNEWS. But that is not always the case either. Whether a source is primary or secondary often relies upon the question being asked. Where the article tells us, for instance, that Catherine was seen in public, and relies on a newspaper article that says she was seen in public, that is clearly a primary source. This piece [23], however, takes a step back, contains opinion, and discusses the media furore. That is, on the face of it, a secondary source. But then, when we look what it verifies in the article, we see it being used to verify certain specific details (e.g. staying in hospital for 2 weeks) for which it is, in fact, a primary source. If we summarise the source we are using a secondary source, but we are not doing that.
    Newspaper reports (and this is almost all newspaper reports) are largely primary though. It is too soon for the kind of reliable secondary sourcing from which one might write a tertiary encyclopaedic article. This happens a lot on Wikipedia, and the community appears relaxed about this where we can, at least, suppose that proper histories will be written one day. But that cuts to the problem with this article, and why it fails on WP:NOT: any historical treatment of this matter will be all about Catherine's cancer diagnosis, treatment, and legacy. This media furore and rumour mill will be mentioned, but it won't be the focus of coverage, and this blow by blow newspaper style reporting will not appear in such sources. What we are trying to do, by relying on newspaper sources, is to be historians. We are using primary sources here to write a history of the event. Historians prefer the primary sources, because they are writing the secondary sources. But we are not doing history here. We are doing an encyclopaedia - a tertiary source. There is a reason for that, and this article demonstrates that reason. We are not doing the history very well (partly because we are actually in it, so can't see the wood for the trees, and partly because we are simply following the news reports without applying the critical and necessary original research demanded of the historian.) Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 09:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Within scope: If it is clearly acknowledged that the topic is notable, then I also argue it is within scope. While some would dismiss the subject as celebrity gossip, the events of the last three months have not been just gossip and speculation, and some amount of gossip and speculation were arguably natural responses to what was happening. The three-month phenomenon of her inadequately explained absence from public appearances is more than just gossip. Let's recount some of what happened here: 1) there was no clear explanation of what sort of surgery she underwent; 2) assurances were given that it was not cancer-related, which ultimately turned out to be false and was not corrected until long after some insiders knew it was false; 3) abdominal surgery generally does not require this long a period of recovery before an otherwise healthy person of her age can basically function at a normal level; 4) during this unusual period of being completely withdrawn from the public, there is a cheery photograph released, seemingly to try to keep a lid on the situation; 5) the "photograph" rapidly turns out to be some edited collage of different photographs pasted together; 6) she's noticeably not wearing a wedding ring in the picture; 7) a statement is released (again without appearing in public herself) saying she edited the photo herself; 8) she is suddenly sighted from afar at a market and captured in some choppy bystander video. This all happens in the setting of health issues for King Charles. These are all real events in the life of one of the most notable public figures in the world. Removing this sequence of events from Wikipedia or scattering it into snippets and summaries in other articles would not be appropriate. —⁠ ⁠ BarrelProof ( talk) 18:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    One of the most notable public figures in the world. Poppycock. She wields no political power whatsoever. She is only this in the minds of celebrity gossip-mongers. Phil Bridger ( talk) 18:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I'd agree with this if you remove the irrelevant "political power" part. I as a Chinese-American did not know anything about her until the photoshop stuff went out. Aaron Liu ( talk) 18:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Per WP:NOPAGE this topic (such as it is) would be better covered – briefly – in the main article. Bon courage ( talk) 03:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: the froth of speculation has receded, all the mystery has been cleared up, and there is nothing to say.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 03:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment I'm thinking back to the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann and the similar amount of comment, conspiracy theories, trolling, speculation etc. that occurred. The potential policy violations ( WP:BLP, WP:UNDUE, WP:GOSSIP etc. etc.) that have also been raised here were quickly identified, and after a month of heated discussion on the main article, a separate article, Reactions to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann emerged. I think that article could be a pattern for something like Reactions to Kate Middleton's 2024 illness. Again, things would need to be put into context and WP:BLP, WP:GOSSIP and WP:UNDUE would need to be considered. For example, the whole photo manupulation thing that is being used as a justification for keeping this article would need to be put into context. (Who hasn't enhanced a photo they've taken? This was clearly not done to deceive. It's not like Kate's head from another photo was photoshopped in to make her look more healthy than she was; the photo accurately depicts what it was purporting to depict.) That could be an article that would serve the purpose of having a record of what happened with due respect for our policies and the individuals invloved. But I still believe that this article as it stands should be deleted. Lard Almighty ( talk) 05:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - I really just wanted to walk away from this explosion, but I can only shield my nose from the smoke's toxic fumes so much until I need to breathe. As someone who generally cares little about the Royal Family, I honestly think that most of the people here arguing that this reads like a rejected Daily Mail thinkpiece have missed the point of this article in the first place. Where exactly are the disparaging comments made about her character? If there were any of those in the article, they were either deleted on sight or mere neutral reflections on what the media believed. This isn't an article explicitly asserting that she hid from the public eye due to some tinfoil-wrapped conspiracy. Rather, it's about how her seclusion led to speculation built from spread out straws, which she immediately blew away through her diagnosis, and the resulting fallout from the debris. I see NOTNEWS invoked as a point against this page, but the coverage that goes beyond routine announcements and speculation are more than enough to justify its encyclopedic value. The three lessons I take away from reading the page, along with the multiple secondary and reliable analysis pieces on this topic, are these:
1: Conspiracy - The general dangers of conspiracy theories in warping humanity's perceptions of reality, especially when intertwined with celebrity culture.
2: Celebrity Worship - Society's obsessive deification of public figures leading to our minds capturing these rare moments of vulnerability as if cracks suddenly appear in the statues we encased them in.
3: Social Media - The ease of social media perpetuating unfounded narratives with little regard for privacy or respect.
These three lessons prove that this incident means so much more than some "Metal Kate Solid" publicity stunt. It's an article that invites thought on various societal implications the same way a true encyclopedic article should. The only people this article insults are those who purported these awful takes in the first place - including both the mainstream press and the public at large. If Wikipedia wants to take itself seriously, it would keep this article as a mirror to reflect society's behavior in moments like this, because it's a reflection future generations deserve to see. PantheonRadiance ( talk) 07:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The article is definitely excessively detailed on the princess rather than the speculation: we don't need to know that her father-in-law visited her in hospital, that she had been planning a trip to Latvia in the spring, or that she was wearing sunglasses in the TMZ paparazzi photograph. But this is content that can be removed (though when I did, the edits were reverted).
I appreciate the importance of the news story on the (effect of social media on) conspiracy theories/celebrity worship. But what requires this "case study" to have a standalone article, rather than simply being mentioned on the relevant pages? For example, the kill notices issued on the Mother's Day photograph were significant; they receive a mention at kill notice. Can't the same be done at celebrity worship, conspiracy theories, and social media? What requires a standalone article? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 11:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think the question you're asking is covered at WP:PAGEDECIDE. I don't think anything requires that this have its own page, but if we concede it is a notable event, we should be asking which way makes it easiest to understand. There hasn't been a lot of discussion about that on this page that I have seen. "The decision should always be based upon specific considerations about how to make the topic understandable, and not merely upon personal likes or dislikes." To me, in understanding this event, it is more understandable to have this article than a few sentences in another article. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 13:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
My point is, per the example at kill notice, the significance of this event on all the various topics raised by PK-WIKI and PantheonRadiance can be adequately treated on pages for which the event has some resonance, without requiring a standalone article. For example, Where is Kate? currently reads:

Before the cancer announcement, commentators remarked on the royal family's adherence to their ' never complain, never explain' minimal disclosure strategy.

Never complain, never explain could be updated to include a paragraph (with better sourcing) along the lines of:

Following a planned abdominal surgical operation in January 2024, speculation on the health and public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales grew on social media and was widely reported by the international press. [a 1] Some commentators remarked on the royal family's adherence to the never complain, never explain strategy, [a 2] arguing that it only exacerbated speculation, [a 3] and was inadequate given the controversy's extensive coverage. [a 4]

An additional sentence or two could then be expended on the cancer diagnosis announcement and any subsequent commentary relevant to never complain, never explain. In my view, this is sufficient to understand the event's relevance to the strategy, and other aspects about the event (the nature of the speculation, the events that increased speculation, the sightings, the Mother's Day photograph) do not need to be explained to understand the event's relevance in this context, a hallmark of a WP:COATRACK. What information exists at Catherine, Princess of Wales will suffice – because this is, after all, not about the princess, but about the media craze.
For sure, understanding this event will always be easier in a standalone article than it would at Catherine, Princess of Wales. That doesn't get around the question of whether an article on this event (particularly given its BLP nature) and its minutiae is a suitable entry for an encyclopaedia – that is, whether Wikipedia should provide coverage for readers wanting to understand this event – which brings us to WP:NOT. Wikipedia can mention and analyse the speculation/controversy on all the articles for which it is relevant, but that does not mean it requires a standalone article amalgamating all that information. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 13:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
And what do you say to those who point out that Catherine, Princess of Wales is already a large article and that in order to cover this topic to NPOV standards would exceed the standard size of a good article and we would have to break out this or other topics anyway... NPOV doesn't let us write just a few sentences and NPOV is not negotiable. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 14:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
See my comment at 10:55 UTC 2 April 2024 (Most Delete-supporting editors mentioning a merge*...). My reply would be: what else needs to be added to Catherine, Princess of Wales? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 14:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I see somewhere between 40k and 60k bytes which would have to be merged there. Given the scope and volume of coverage we don't have an option here other than to cover it that extensively, even if we wanted to cover it less than the sources do we are bound by NPOV. No matter how much people want "at most a paragraph" isn't an option unless we go and rewrite NPOV. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 14:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Where are those 40k to 60k bytes coming from? What sections need to be merged? What makes the current coverage at Catherine, Princess of Wales insufficient for encyclopedic coverage? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 14:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Since this event is presumed to merit an article if it passes notability and NOT, then we would need to do our best to explain this event, and as you said that is better done in a standalone article than merging. So we are back to NOT. The text of NOTNEWS has to do with enduring notability. I think the "lessons" above contribute to the idea that this will likely have enduring notability. I think the Impact section of the article also contributes. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 15:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
So we are back to the spirit of policy, not its letter. Only criterion 2 of 4 of WP:NOTNEWS concerns enduring notability, and seems to have in mind events like 2023 Milan nursing home fire; this criterion isn't directly applicable in Where is Kate?'s case, though criterion 2 might have something to say about how the article discusses some individual events (e.g. William missing the memorial service, the Windsor Farm Shop video). Some editorial revisions can help. Criterion 4 of NOTNEWS is more promising – it's not about enduring notability, but celebrity gossip. Still, as I said in my nomination statement, I think WP:BLPGOSSIP is more applicable than WP:NOTGOSSIP. Finally, per my previous comments, I agree that there is discussion in the impact section, usually relating to specific events or themes discussed in Where is Kate?, that is relevant for articles like Republicanism in the United Kingdom; it still doesn't justify a standalone article on the set of events and themes from the speculation/controversy. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 16:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think you need to lay out what you think the spirit of the policy is, otherwise it's IDONTLIKEIT. To me, the spirit of anti-gossip policy is to avoid spreading speculation and conspiracy theories that could harm people. But right now we don't have speculation that's in danger of being spread, all the rumors have been disproven (except actual crazy conspiracy that even after the announcement she is missing, which isn't in the article at all), and the badness of the speculation and conspiracy theories is part of the story in the article. The spirit of anti-news policy is to avoid trivial stuff, reporting on every event that gets in the news, without anything to say except what was reported in the news. But this was a truly extraordinary and drawn-out event, and commentary from a variety of sources, news and commentary, can be summarized. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 16:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Per previous comments, in my reading, media crazes about an event in a living person's life, which can be adequately summarised for an encyclopedia reader's interests in the living person's article, are precluded by the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP, particularly WP:BLPGOSSIP. Focusing only on WP:NOTGOSSIP:

news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary. Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, matches played, or goals scored warrants inclusion in the biography of that person, only those for which they have notability or for which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest

Here, the policy has in mind providing goal-by-goal summaries of a footballer's career included in their biography, let alone, say, Lionel Messi at the 2022 FIFA World Cup. Analogously, Where is Kate? effectively provides a media-mention-by-media-mention summary of her early 2024 and the associated commentary, separate from the princess' biography. What I haven't worked out is how Squidgygate might fit into this. Then we have WP:BLPGOSSIP:

Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.

I appreciate that we don't have speculation that's in danger of being spread. The question here, for me, is not that there is gossip: as I said also in the first AfD, the coverage of the gossip is extensive and non-tabloid. Rather, the question is what is the subject. For a BLP policy page, it seems reasonable to interpret the subject as Catherine, Princess of Wales, not early 2024 speculation about the health and public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales. That is to say, although readers are reasonably likely to have an interest in the media craze, any such article is not disinterested, and if it can be adequately summarised (avoiding goal-by-goal summaries) in the main biography, it should be. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 16:48, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I don't think it's fair that this is "media mention by media mention." The article has a narrative, and the events from various news articles are linked in a cohesive way. On GOSSIP, I think the subject is an episode including the unexplained disappearance, surgery, media frenzy, photo, and the announcement, and those are linked in a cohesive way. I think that subject has enduring notability as explained above. The fact that a media frenzy is involved (see this list of such things) doesn't take that notability away. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 18:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Maybe it would also be prudent to edit out what some of the conspiracy theories were and also impact on the Monarchy as an institution considering this not a scandal as compared to the tribulations of individual members over the years and if the public response to her cancer diagnosis is anything to go by the assertion that it somehow damaged the monarchy as brand is void. Ella Nya ( talk) 13:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep per above arguments. RadioactiveBoulevardier ( talk) 01:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep per above arguments (generally Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT) ( 3OpenEyes's talk page. Say hi!) | (PS: Have a good day) 14:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ Relph, Daniela (29 February 2024). "Analysis: A royal dilemma as public curiosity over Kate's health grows". BBC News. Archived from the original on 9 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  2. ^ Hockaday, James; Wells, Andy; Manning, Ellen (14 March 2024). "The Princess of Wales's ongoing absence from public life, explained". Yahoo News. Archived from the original on 14 March 2024. Retrieved 14 March 2024.
  3. ^ Abad-Santos, Alex (15 March 2024). "3 reasons why Kate Middleton's royal scandal got so out of control". Vox. Archived from the original on 15 March 2024. Retrieved 15 March 2024.
  4. ^ Dickson, E.J. (14 March 2024). "'Missing' Kate Middleton Memes Highlight The Monarchy's Uselessness". Rolling Stone. Archived from the original on 14 March 2024. Retrieved 14 March 2024.
  • Delete per Firefly and Bon courage. Draken Bowser ( talk) 07:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC) Addendum: as several users have correctly pointed out, the topic of this article would, when written in actual summary style, total at most a few sentences. There is more than enough room for it in Kate's BLP, where it belongs. reply
  • Strong keep. A major news event about one of the most notable people in the UK which generated extensive, sustained, national and international media coverage. It doesn't get any more notable. Though the title is suboptimal. Stifle ( talk) 07:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. My initial reaction was to delete based largely on WP:NOTNEWS and BLP concerns. But there's a strong meta-story about the way the tabloid press, compounded by social media, can and do blow things out of all proportion. "Where is Kate?" isn't the right title for this, but there's a move discussion in progress where we can discuss that aspect. Rosbif73 ( talk) 08:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: Like Brexit, Han shot first and The Day the Music Died. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    WP:OTHERSTUFF? And not comparable in any case. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 08:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    "Where is Kate?" wasn't the biggest postwar challenge for any British government didn't paralyse the politics of a country for 31/2 years. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 09:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I have no idea what the relevance of those are, but none are WP:BLPs. Black Kite (talk) 09:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Delete Its gossip and meme. Pharaoh496 ( talk) 10:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Given the high participation in this AfD, on Liz's suggestion, I have requested at WP:AN for three uninvolved administrators to form a panel to close this AfD once its seven days are expired. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 10:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Just because something 'passes' GNG doesn't mean it must have an article, Wikipedia isn't a gossip magazine. If this isn't covered by the exact wording of current policy this discussion should be used as a basis for rewording policy so it does. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 11:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Indeed. And it is covered by policy, per WP:N. See my comment above. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 11:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep. What makes me change my stance from weak keep to strong keep is the egregious misconception of many delete votes about this article’s nature, much of which PK-WIKI and PantheonRadiance have put very clear. Also shout out to IgnatiusofLondon for his core role in this precious public debate. Still I regretfully have to begin my own analysis with some ambivalences in his past statements:
First, BLP and especially NOTGOSSIP concerns. As provided in the deletion rationale, Ignatius finds it a great fault to violate the “spirit” of NOTGOSSIP and BLPGOSSIP, while acknowledging the outcome of the first AfD. Yet, it seems no one ever cares about what that “spirit” means. Then, to avoid a repetition of the first AfD, we must give it an explanation: either we follow the original wording of the cited BLPGOSSIP guidance and establish from now on a bright-line rule against any gossip (which I will address in the last paragraph), or we break the “spirit” down into exact interests in hope of finding something not discussed before.
As much work has been provided by PK and Pantheon, I'll just make some supplements. Referring to precedents may offer some help here. In the last DRV I’ve raised examples of Birtherism and Clinton body count conspiracy theory, and I regretfully find no reply: why the conspiracies around the Clintons and Obama, also potentially violating BLP, survived AfDs? Is it because these figures are “more political” and thus should tolerate more criticism? Is it because this article is around Kate’s health, which bears more importance than birthplace or criminal records? I fail to see huge differences here. Even though Kate's interest is a bit greater than Obama's, the global reaction to this story persuasively overweigh it: the opportunistic MP Galloway grasped on it, and even accusations against Russian spies emerge (per DeCausa in the last DRV).We don’t need a critical theory professor to deliver a tedious essay on body and politics; evidence is obvious. Also, while there is indeed concern about Kate’s privacy or the Monarchy’s renown, it should be noted that here, even the most controversial title "Where is Kate" shows no malice against the public figures; the most materials in the article, if drafted decently, shows only concerns about the masses’ active engagement in a royal scandal (though in a wrong way).
Second, Proportionality. Per WP:ATD we should first check whether we can save the article by editing. For example, many find the title “Where is Kate” obnoxious, yet that doesn’t constitute a reason for the whole article’s deletion. Some may suggest merge, i.e. a few sentences in Catherine’s article, or in the list of conspiracy theories are enough. But that seems to me still a second-best choice, because above we have found many points of interest that may be ignored when merging. How can we address the mass media or monarchy mishandling issues in an article that focus on Kate’s own biography? Even we manage it, who can guarantee that it may survive a possible future response to WP:TOOLONG? Not tolerating any remediable problem is just WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
Third, WP:COATRACK concern. Many COATRACK advocates seem to ignore that it is to date only an essay, not a policy. Why so? I believe it is because of risks of its misuse in an edit war. From my perspective, many Delete voters simply presuppose that this article should be a superfluous collection of unsubstantiated news about Kate’s health, and refuse to believe that it may ever become a genuine article about a mass media movement. I admit that there may be disagreements on the exact purpose of an article; contradictory ideas may even be observed on one single editor. Ignatius as example here: when he recognize the focus is the “media frenzy” but not only Kate herself, in a March 23 response to TheSpacebook he finds it good to remove the notion that “since the death of Queen Elizabeth II, support for the monarchy reached a record low” for not relevant, while this, from my perspective, has nothing to do with BLP and exactly explains why some were so furious during the frenzy. Still, if one doubts that an article has developed in the wrong way, what they should first do is TRY TO EDIT IT, per proportionality stated above.
Finally, I have to utter some of my original research here. Some may still question about my stringent adherence above to freedom-of-speech rationale. Can’t the WP just choose a bright-line rule to be more accurate, reliable, official, while inevitably missing some valuable grassroot gossips? My answer is No. We live in an era of falsity: speech freedom and credibility encroach on each other, authorities and celebrities still pretend omniscience by cracking down on ever increasing dissents. In the “Orient” the GFW (I sincerely hope everyone may read the Chinese version of this, during which many dissents came from nowhere and were easily dismissed by the authorities as conspiracies), in the “West” maybe a DMCA takedown notice or a defamation suit. In history, Wikipedia has been the ally of Lawrence Lessig whose utopic fantasy about Internet still impresses us today. I’m not refuting policies like WP:DATABASE, but by de facto collaboration with the Internet Archive (which is now also in jeopardy following the suit by Penguin) WP is indeed a quasi-pirate that helps to find sources which, even if accessible in a legal sense, may be hard to locate under the search engine-designed hierarchy, and the donation from the mass guarantees that WP still ranks top on the google page. That means, WP is a unique exception that may exercise its potential to RECORD memories for the mass, that, even though not deleted, can easily be flooded over. With a bright-line rule that potential is denied. We have had a long history behind us against the tragedy of “wish[ing] to obtain from electronic databases material that is not there” (Breyer J., dissenting, Eldred v. Ashcroft). In such a time of falsity we have to rely on our own trust in a real “marketplace of ideas”(Holmes, J.) and never be complicit: not only are we waiting for a Robert Darnton to tell our offspring how a transformation starts with an unnoticed cat massacre, but also we do this for our own sake. Jason211pacem ( talk) 13:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Thanks, Jason211pacem, for your kind words. Just a few comments:
  • no one ever cares about what that "spirit" means → Yes, it seems like the spirit argument hasn't had much uptake in the rest of the AfD, at least not explicitly. I appreciate it is handwaving, much like I find the WP:BLP arguments handwaving, but that is because the letter of the policies doesn't, in my view, preclude the article, and so this is a question of editorial judgment about Wikipedia's scope that isn't well-encapsulated by existing policies and guidelines. We are dealing with an edge case, and in ActivelyDisinterested's words: If this isn't covered by the exact wording of current policy this discussion should be used as a basis for rewording policy so it does. So the fiasco has prompted me to propose an expansion to BLPGOSSIP, with no expectation or intent that BLPGOSSIP be modified to affect the outcome of this AfD while it is still running.
  • why the conspiracies around the Clintons and Obama, also potentially violating BLP, survived AfDs? → I don't have a clear-cut answer to this, but these articles discuss longstanding conspiracy theories, rather than media crazes. The actual conspiracy theories (e.g. that Catherine had a bad hair do) were a comparatively small part of this news story, which really resembles more of an event and speculation than conspiracy theories.
  • How can we address the mass media or monarchy mishandling issues in an article that focus on Kate’s own biography? → We don't, because this has nothing to do with the princess, which is one of the recurring comments about Where is Kate?. We address these issues on their respective topic pages, e.g. Republicanism in the United Kingdom. Per my previous comments, which I don't want to repeat at risk of bludgeoning, I think this can be done without requiring a standalone article like Where is Kate?, and the relevance of the speculation/controversy/photograph/whatever can be afforded different treatment on different topic pages, without requiring readers to understand all the coatrack to understand its significance to a particular topic.
  • in a March 23 response to TheSpacebook [Ignatius] finds it good to remove the notion that “since the death of Queen Elizabeth II → The source used to justify this statement preceded Catherine's hospitalisation, and was being used to contextualise commentary on the speculation/support for the monarchy. It might have been helpful context, but I thought this use of a source was poor editorialisation: the article required a better source to sustain the statement, clearly linking (low) support for the monarchy to the speculation/controversy. Until such source was presented, I removed the sentence.
IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 14:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I share the same idea with ActivelyDisinterested that the policy needs amendment. But I cannot agree with such a possible interpretation of their statement that "gossip", a hollow pejorative adjective, adequately serves as a proxy for deletion. That's what I called a dangerous bright-line rule.
In terms of your suggestion of "different topic pages" treatment, I think it correctly distinguishes two kinds of value at issue when deleting an article that contains more than one single event (needless to say most articles fall into this category): the value of each event that may inevitably be lost during the deletion, and the "compilation value", which I think should have been better addressed by WP:PAGEDECIDE.
Admittedly the lifespan of a conspiracy theory is an important factor, but a story may still gain independent value for a standalone page when other factors are taken into account; then breaking it down into pieces of info in different pages may substantially burden the reader who needs a holistic knowledge of the whole event. I've been reminded of a case of reference value on the Chinese WP which I'll later sort out and (if you don't mind) put on your talk page (to prevent this AfD page from being too verbose). Jason211pacem ( talk) 10:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete the keep arguments are particularly poor. Under Wikipedia policy just because something is in newspapers or on the news does not mean we have to have an article. The keep arguments also seem to plead ignorance of, or not care, that "Kate" is a living person. (BLP) The entire premise of this article is a crime (missing person), or conspiracy theory, or gossip about a living person, with the real undercurrent that the living person is either a poor liar (of omission and/or commission) or a fool of others. But no, the keep then tries to claim it's not about Kate, what the keep actually means it wants to do is put Kate in the corner and turn her into a COATRACK for other things. No, Kate's not your coatrack either, she is still a living person, and to the extent it is about other things, the only responsible way to discuss is in the context of other subjects, not this article. -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 14:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Missing person is not a crime. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
That's your quibble? How unserious, missing person is regularly the start and implication of criminal mystery. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 15:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
These are the same people who think Paul McCartney died decades ago and was replaced. That's what this article is, right up there with Balloon boy. Chris Troutman ( talk) 15:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think almost everything you wrote is wrong, but I decided to ignore the incivility/hyperbole and address the first concrete point you raised. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
She was never a ''missing'' person. Killuminator ( talk) 16:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
This is also true. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Indeed, there is no decent point in having this 'where' article. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 16:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Suggestion copy and paste article into draft space and strip all mention of Catherine, and we title it something like 'Where is Olivia?'; and have it as an example essay of what not to do when something bursts in coverage for 1 week and then drops in notability like a lead balloon after. TheSpacebook ( talk) 15:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Except there has been sustained coverage of various elements of this story for over two months already (the surgery in mid-January, the Mothers Day picture in early March, her announcement of cancer in late March), so clearly not a "burst" as you suggest. Frank Anchor 16:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The article exists because a bunch of bored online people selected her to be meme of the month in March. All of this is worthy of a few sentences on the main article, not a full article. Killuminator ( talk) 17:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think the original comment was referring to the 10 March stuff, which was the blow-up, and around the creation of this article. She was on medical leave till Easter, so update by Easter was almost certain (and probably always the plan). Alanscottwalker ( talk) 17:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete because we know where she is (or change the title or something). Selfstudier ( talk) 18:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Wouldn't that just be a move? Why say delete, when just because an event is over doesn't mean an article shouldn't exist. Industrial Insect (talk) 19:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:BLPGOSSIP. Bzweebl ( talk • contribs) 18:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and move the article doesn't seem to be a violation of Wikipedia:BLPGOSSIP. As said by other editors the article not only continued to receive coverage, but also represents the loss of trust in a news source, and it doesn't seem to cause any harm to the subject (the conspiracy theories are called as such).
    Industrial Insect (talk) 19:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep however I support a renaming - the amount of speculation merits an article, albeit one shorter than the current article. LegalSmeagolian ( talk) 22:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, a media event of no lasting impact, not even about the person, but about the fuss and media attention grabbing. - Altenmann >talk 23:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: In this instance WP:BLPPUBLIC outweighs WP:BLPGOSSIP.  Bait30   Talk 2 me pls? 01:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    • BLPGOSSIP is never outweighed by BLPPUBLIC. There are other factors related to BLPPUBLIC that would come into play, such as related to BLPVICTIM, but BLPGOSSIP is a top level restriction no matter how famous a person is. —  Masem ( t) 04:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
      • There is nothing in BLPGOSSIP to suggest that it is top level restriction. However, BLPPUBLIC is clear that If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article. Kate's public absence and received substantial and sustained coverage from many leading media outlets. Frank Anchor 16:22, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • keep and rename I don't like the title, but oddly this has become an important thing. In many ways it is about the nature of modern media. When first created, I think it was gossip at best. Now it's more. Further, as someone who really tries not to follow the English Royals (I honestly don't know the name of the person she's married to, though I could probably guess) I'm aware of this stuff against my will. It's not gossip at this point. The name of the article, however, is poor. Also mildly annoyed at the number of AfDs in such a short time. I get why (things are changing rapidly) but I still don't like it much. Hobit ( talk) 03:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: per the arguments put forth by Rwendland, Horse Eye's Back, and PK-WIKI. RudolfRed ( talk) 04:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:NOTGOSSIP and most importantly BLP. This topic does not deserve the breathless blow by blow it has received in this article and only warrants a few sentences at best in the main article. Pinguinn  🐧 07:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: Saying that an article should be deleted because the topic violates the spirit of a policy has the same weight as WP:IDONTLIKEIT, in other words none at all. As the proposer themselves stated above, the fact that the vast media and internet speculation has received significant coverage in RS thus passing the general notability guideline is not in contention. Multiple RS have already covered and commented on the implication and impact of this entire fiasco and this topic will be discussed in studies of western media and celebrity culture for years to come. -- StellarHalo ( talk) 10:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The !vote directly above this one cites an actual policy, not just the spirit, under which the article is excluded per WP:N. I can understand you might not read the whole thread, but when trying to encapsulate the delete arguments, you might engage with some of them. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 10:22, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    There is nothing in the text of NOTGOSSIP or BLP being cited there, its just a vague hand wave to the policy... Note that nobody who has dug into the actual policy and guideline has been able to make an argument for deletion on those grounds stick, hence the appeal to their spirit not their letter. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    As elsewhere, the words on the page should not require explanation if read carefully. Writing WP:NOTGOSSIP is clearly shorthand for pasting the text:

    Celebrity gossip and diary. Even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are. For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary. Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, matches played, or goals scored warrants inclusion in the biography of that person, only those for which they have notability or for which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest.

    Now examine the text of the page in question. First the title: "Where is Kate?" Obviously a gossip column title. It certainly isn't encyclopaedic. What about the content of the article? Well now it says things like Her public absence received extensive international media coverage, which largely asked "Where is Kate?" in past tense. That, of course is a response to the shifting news and the rapid rewriting in response to new news, and indicates the article also fails on WP:NOTNEWS, but just concentrating on NOTGOSSIP, look at that warning about overly detailed articles that look like a diary and then look at this article, which has, for instance, 21 references to events happening on dates in March alone. So just for March we have on 4 March, on 5 March, and so on, also for 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 22nd, 31st plus a 15th-17th March. Other months are also available. So this is very diary like. It is a blow by blow account based on primary sources, not a summary of a topic based on secondary sources. We are told what days she went shopping, for instance, and goodness me, the shutter speed and aperture of the camera taking a photo. Overly detailed? Yep. A lot of trivia? Yep.
    There is something notable and encyclopaedic here, but it is nothing to do with the question "Where is Kate?" No one wants to censor coverage of her cancer diagnosis, nor of the behaviour of British media, nor of anything else that is actually notable here. But that is not what this article is about. That information belongs in her biography, and if a spinout were necessary, this is not the spinout that would be called for. This article is about the gossip, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you. I expect you won't agree, because you have made 33 comments so far in this AfD and it is clear where you sit on the issue, but no - no one who has cited NOTGOSSIP or NOTNEWS or any of the other NOT policies is making "just a vague hand wave to the policy." If the policy does not apply here, it doesn't apply anywhere, and that is a settled and considered view of this editor, and I expect of every other one who has cited that policy. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 18:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    On the contrary, when I wrote "per NOTGOSSIP and BLP" it meant I was directly citing those policies and therefore the texts of those policies were meant to speak for themselves. By reading the text of NOTGOSSIP it should not take a great leap of faith to understand why someone might oppose per that policy. Sirfurboy has very effectively described the reasoning for citing NOTGOSSIP, but surely not every !vote has to go into that much detail to be valid. Pinguinn  🐧 08:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete It's hard to understand how this article came to be accepted. This is the epitome of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Deb ( talk) 14:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete For all the reasons stated above, but particularly WP:RECENT – the subject matter has already lost relevance for any more than a one sentence mention in the main article on the Princess of Wales. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 15:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ ThoughtIdRetired: But particularly WP:RECENT? WP:RECENT says "Above all else, editors should avoid getting into edit wars or contentious deletion discussions when trying to deal with recentism." so how are you making a contentious deletion argument based on WP:RECENT? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
How do we differentiate between a "contentious deletion discussion" and a "deletion discussion". There is already a 70% opinion in favour of deletion. Does the existence of the 30% make this contentious (I really don't know)? All I did was look at the current news coverage, both generally and in a quality newspaper. The general view gave me the impression that the "news" consisted of a celebrity backtracking on/apologising for their speculation and other news outlets looking retrospectively at the matter. The quality newspaper had nothing in the past week. To me that is a pretty rapid disappearance of the story. This is, of course, in addition to all the other deletion reasons. And I have not even got into the suggestion that the whole story was fuelled by Russian troll factories (see [24]) – surely Wikipedia is not on the side of the trolls? All I have done is given my opinion. You might question it, but you have not changed it. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 17:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Contentious in this context means not unanimous. Discussion are not votes, you appear to be counting votes? This particular discussion is extremely contentious, as far as I can tell its actually the most contentious serious of deletion discussion we've had on wiki this year (note that the first closed as keep very recently). I don't understand how more coverage (the troll factories stories) makes it less notable not more notable, how does that work? I'm not asking for your opinion to change, I'm questioning your interpretation of policy and guideline (which should be separate from your personal feelings about the topic). Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 17:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
(1) Interpretation of "contentious". As with so much of the guidance in Wikipedia, the term is not defined. I don't see anything that suggests the meaning "not unanimous". (2) you appear to be counting votes. I carefully used the word "opinions" instead of "votes". Nevertheless, relative numbers are something that go into the final decision-making mix. (3) The troll factories are something that makes it less notable for a serious encyclopaedia – because the whole subject has been artificially inflated above its true news value. (4) I should have made clear that I was talking about my opinions on how Wikipedia is meant to operate. Those start with the first of the WP:5P, especially the bit about not being a newspaper. In my thinking, that particularly expands into not being a tabloid newspaper. The advice on recentism includes "just wait and see". Since Wikipedia is not a newspaper, that advice would have been well followed if it had delayed the creation of the article until the dust had settled. Then decisions on whether there was sufficient notability for a separate article would have been much easier. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 19:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
There is no good faith way to argue that this is isn't a contentious discussion. That troll factories became involved makes it more notable for a serious encyclopedia, not less. That would appear to be misrepresenting the advice on recentism, wait and see would mean keep not delete and we are supposed to create articles for current events when they first meet the notability not wait... Per WP:NOTNEWS "Editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage, and to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events." Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Nothing except the photoshop controversy and cancer announcement even meets the definition of news. Aaron Liu ( talk) 22:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
What definition of news? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 06:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Despite an impressively energetic counter-argument, my opinion on whether this subject matter should have an article of its own remains unchanged – it should not. If one of the five pillars of Wikipedia says that this is not a newspaper, then that over-rules any guidance written by individual editors. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 08:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia is not a newspaper... As in we don't publish original reporting. Not that we don't cover what real newspapers cover. I get that you disagree, but you can't manipulate things which don't agree with you into agreeing with you because you disagree... At this point the only thing you can point to is WP:IAR, which is a valid argument but nobody has made it. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Horse Eye's Back, even though it's a fun idea use your entire month's allocation of argument in just the first few days of April, I would recommend you disengage. You've now made over 40 edits and it could be construed as bludgeoning the discussion. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 17:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
It's only bludgeoning if they keep repeating the same arguments. Aaron Liu ( talk) 17:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
On the other side, I should probably also be disengaging(!), but just to say, for what it's worth, that it's a fine line between bludgeoning and ensuring a productive discussion that helps solidify consensus. I think @ Horse Eye's Back's contributions have been restrained (many replies within !vote-threads rather than replies across many !vote-threads), and I've found their contributions helpful and interesting in clarifying my own thoughts. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 17:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I didn't think I was bludgeoning because the discussion here as been so broad, if I felt I was just repeating myself to no end I wouldn't do it but people keep making new and inventive arguments (which is a boon to wikipedia, policies and guidelines unchallenged get stale). Out of an abundance of caution and respect for you I will take a step back. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 17:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Thanks to Aaron, Ignatius, and HEB for the quick replies - I agree that everyone's comments have been made in good faith and there's definitely a difference between bludgeoning and good discussion. Hopefully the arguments will be helpful to the closer in assessing consensus; just important that they don't become redundant or cause people to shy away from participating. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 17:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Original reporting is only 1 of the 4 points at notnews. Aaron Liu ( talk) 17:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The article is not a news report, the article is not a who's who entry, the article is does not a purveyor of gossip or written as a celebrity diary... We've covered all of these above, none off the words written on that page as not allowed actually cover what is on this page, hence the invocation of the spirit not the letter. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 17:17, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The article, other than the photoshop controversy and cancer announcement (and tiny bit of analysis on media frenzy), is literally gossip on why people haven't been seeing her and every trivial detail on where she went. Aaron Liu ( talk) 19:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Something that actually happens. It's all just "analysis". Aaron Liu ( talk) 12:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Analysis can be either news or opinion, what we use here appears to be news... I would also note that gossip is "Something that actually happens" so reporting on gossip is news even thats the way you want to take this. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Analysis is not news. Analysis of news is still not news. Analysis on "omg nobody has seen her so she's sick" is only gossip and also not news. "She hasn't been seen in a year" is only borderline news and does not deserve an article since it's not an actual disappearance. Aaron Liu ( talk) 17:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Analsysis is very much news and very much what we're supposed to be including... Per WP:RS: "This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors" Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 17:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Analysis is simply not news, which is an objective thing that happens. Reporting that people are spreading conspiracy theories is different from spreading conspiracy theories. The former is news while the latter isn't. Yellow journalists also are not reliable authors. Aaron Liu ( talk) 19:46, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep There are multiple media-covered narratives with established multidisciplinary relevance here. This meets WP:GNG and surpasses criticism of guides for WP:TABLOID and WP:RECENT topics. The strongest argument for keeping this is the diversity of coverage. This story was not only tabloid celebrity coverage, but also in the context of general contemporary social issues including medical privacy, AI image alteration, propaganda of multiple countries, and public right to know of the status of public figures. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Weak delete: first of all, this topic falls within Wikipedia's scope and is covered at Catherine, Princess of Wales#Health and #Photograph controversy. The encyclopedic aspects lie in the proliferation of conspiracy theories (and sources exist to debunk this) and the Royal Family's use of disinformation (manipulated photograph).
    A significant challenge is that the UK mainstream media are unreliable on many aspects of the modern Royal Family due to close collaboration with Westminster Palace: they report rumour as fact, misattribute information that has come from royal PR teams, and construct mutually beneficially fictional narratives. International news sources do exist on this topic, but they are limited in their dependence on UK media and recency.
    Ultimately, I do believe this will be a significant topic in 10 years' time, but that we need sources not yet created to establish notability. I hope to soon read peer-reviewed scholarship analysing British media coverage of this event, social media reaction, effect on the public image of the Royal family and wider context as to the Royal Family's creation of propaganda. Without this, we cannot write a standalone encyclopedia article. — Bilorv ( talk) 16:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and move, third attempt at a deletion is getting desperate. A move or even redirect would be appropriate, considering how popular the article has become and how it is fully justified through links and references, and how the topic has become a media sensation in the Western World, the new article naming of public absence is adequate and makes sense to keep for people wanting to follow the story. Cltjames ( talk) 18:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The only sensational part was the photoshop and cancer announcement, which don't seem notable enough to have their own article at this point. Like Bilorv said, if lots of analyses come in the future then these parts can have their own article. There is a ton of gossip around celebrities, and the speculation of why Catherine was missing is on par with gossip. Aaron Liu ( talk) 19:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The second attempt was closed on purely procedural grounds and the deletion review was closed as no consensus because too many people wanted many different things. It was just chaos due to multiple overlapping circumstances, not a rock solid ''keep'. Killuminator ( talk) 22:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and not rename. Subject to the comments provided, the article should be kept. We should avoid subjective judgments of notability. Additionally, notability is not temporary ( WP:NTEMP), and media coverage surrounding the subject remains significant (and reliable!), encompassing various perspectives and responses. Therefore, the article's relevance persists. The argument of WP:NOTGOSSIP does not hold up. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, and that is precisely what the article predominantly (if not entirely) relies on. The same applies to articles like Paul is dead, as mentioned by other users. RodRabelo7 ( talk) 01:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, per WP:NOT: fancruft and trivia. The material is covered in the main article, Catherine, Princess of Wales#Photograph controversy, and this is sufficient. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 12:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Firefly. Happy days, ~ Lindsay H ello 13:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Masem. Daniel Quinlan ( talk) 16:29, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This is tabloid gossip and speculation, and fails the ten-year test. Any actual encyclopedic information can be merged into the main article. – bradv 18:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Unencyclopedic, gossip and speculation. Agree with above that if there’s any RS cited content, it can be carefully merged into the main article following the guidelines of living persons for biographical articles. Kierzek ( talk) 21:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Notable, if unpleasant to some. Dreameditsbrooklyn ( talk) 00:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I don't care whether it's unpleasant. We have page on many, many unpleasant subjects. The reason I think it should be deleted is that it doesn't build good encyclopedic coverage of the underlying topic. I agree with Bilorv that in ten years' time we may end up with an encyclopedic article on this subject. But at the moment, the secondary sources don't exist to make a page that isn't just regurgitating media fluff about what turned out to be the poorly-managed prelude to the announcement of the Princess' illness. It's a WP:POVFORK where the point of view being privileged is that of conspiracy theorists and tabloid editors. GenevieveDEon ( talk) 07:48, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete the doctor prescribes WP:NOT with extra doses of WP:UCS. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 02:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and rename My position hasn't changed after three AfDs and an RM. Yes, the coverage was ridiculous. But it was notable, it sustained for weeks, and it generated a conversation that was covered by a plethora of reliable sources that extend far beyond the tabloids. That means it satisfies our notability requirements. That this coverage is even more reprehensible with hindsight is irrelevant. LM2000 ( talk) 12:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, but keep the information Does Kate have an article focused on her media appearances, or any controversies? Or is there even one about royal controversies in general? Most, or all, of the info contained in this current article could be moved somewhere else and linked to from the main article.

Hol-Tangings ( talk) 18:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Kensington Palace announced on 17 January 2024 that Catherine had undergone a planned abdominal surgery for an undisclosed medical condition that was not cancer, after she had been admitted to The London Clinic the previous day. [1] [2] She postponed all of her public engagements and duties until after Easter that year. [3] The subsequent speculation about Catherine's absence and health prompted various conspiracy theories and attracted extensive media attention. [4] [5] Catherine announced on 22 March, through a video message filmed by BBC Studios, that post-operative tests had found cancer, and the palace said she had been undergoing chemotherapy since late February. [6] [7]

In early March 2024, the Associated Press, AFP, Reuters and Getty Images withdrew from publishing a Mother's Day photograph of Catherine and her children, that was attributed to her husband and accompanied by a personal message from her. [8] The Associated Press later explained that they issued a "kill order" because of concerns regarding digital alteration of the image at its source. [9] AFP and Reuters raised similar concerns. [10] [11] The following day, in a message posted by Kensington Palace, Catherine apologised for any confusion created and said she had personally edited the family photograph that was shared publicly. [12] [13] The incident occurred after Catherine had begun chemotherapy treatment for cancer. [14][ 13:46, 4 April 2024 ]

Sources

  1. ^ Rhoden-Paul, Andre; Coughlan, Sean (17 January 2024). "Catherine, Princess of Wales, in hospital after abdominal surgery". BBC News. Archived from the original on 17 January 2024. Retrieved 17 January 2024.
  2. ^ Kindelan, Katie (23 March 2024). "Kate Middleton: A timeline of her cancer diagnosis, surgery and absence from public duties". Good Morning America. Archived from the original on 22 March 2024. Retrieved 23 March 2024.
  3. ^ Coughlan, Sean (29 January 2024). "King Charles leaves hospital as Kate recovers at home". BBC News. Archived from the original on 29 January 2024. Retrieved 30 January 2024.
  4. ^ Relph, Daniela (29 February 2024). "Analysis: A royal dilemma as public curiosity over Kate's health grows". BBC News. Archived from the original on 9 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  5. ^ Mercedes Lara, Maria (14 March 2024). "Kate Middleton's Surgery Recovery and Photo Controversy: Everything to Know". People. Archived from the original on 14 March 2024. Retrieved 14 March 2024.
  6. ^ Coughlin, Sean (22 March 2024). "Princess of Wales says she is undergoing cancer treatment". BBC News. Archived from the original on 22 March 2024. Retrieved 22 March 2024.
  7. ^ Foster, Max; Said-Moorhouse, Lauren (22 March 2024). "Catherine, Princess of Wales, announces she has cancer". CNN. Archived from the original on 23 March 2024. Retrieved 22 March 2024.
  8. ^ "Picture agencies pull Kate photo amid 'manipulation' concerns". Sky News. 10 March 2024. Archived from the original on 10 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  9. ^ Phillipp, Charlotte (10 March 2024). "Kate Middleton's 2024 Mother's Day Photo 'Killed' After Associated Press Alleges the Image Was 'Manipulated'". People. Archived from the original on 11 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  10. ^ McCluskey, Mitchell (10 March 2024). "News agencies recall image of Catherine, Princess of Wales, citing manipulation concerns". CNN. Archived from the original on 11 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  11. ^ Mackintosh, Thomas (10 March 2024). "Princess of Wales: Kate image withdrawn by five news agencies amid 'manipulation' concerns". BBC News. Archived from the original on 12 March 2024. Retrieved 21 March 2024.
  12. ^ "Kate admits editing Mother's Day photo". BBC News. 11 March 2024. Archived from the original on 11 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  13. ^ Perry (11 March 2024). "Kate Middleton Apologizes for 'Confusion' Over Family Photograph That Caused Controversy". People. Archived from the original on 11 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  14. ^ Coughlan, Sean (22 March 2024). "Kate cancer diagnosis rewrites story of past weeks". BBC News. Archived from the original on 24 March 2024. Retrieved 25 March 2024.

For those who are voting keep, or to keep the information within her biographic article, what else needs to be kept? What is the proposed scope of "Where is Kate?" that goes beyond those paragraphs? Rjjiii ( talk) 18:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC) Added permanent link with time for attribution. Rjjiii ( talk) 04:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The coverage within the article has increased considerably since the start of the afd, and now I think that nothing other than what I mention at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales#Simplicity and concision needs to be added. Aaron Liu ( talk) 01:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect/Merge with Princess Kate’s article. Clearly a notable topic but when content possibly in violation of BLPGOSSIP is removed, it can easily be covered in the parent article. One of the best features of a redirect is that the history is preserved, so if this story evolves and has lasting coverage several months or years from now, it can be restored as a standalone article. Carson Wentz ( talk) 23:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This is a huge violation of WP:BLPGOSSIP. Besides maybe a paragraph on her article, this doesn't belong on here, especially not at this title. LilianaUwU ( talk / contributions) 23:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    With that said, if the article was at literally any other title, I'd be more fine with it. I think the article title itself is what rubs me the wrong way, not necessarily the content (though I don't get why this is an article in the first place). LilianaUwU ( talk / contributions) 02:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Observation I closed the 2nd AFD so I won't be closing this one as I consider my participation involved. But reading this discussion over, it seems like some of the Delete votes, those who provide no policy basis for their opinion, seem like they are editors who are embarrassed at the existence of this article on Wikipedia, rather than due to a careful read of the article and analysis of its sources. It doesn't read like gossip, in fact, it discusses gossip as it pertains to this event but, in itself, it is not gossip. I think that claim also is a disservice to editors who contributed to the article who I think took pains to maintain an integrity and write about the subject with a NPOV. I am not arguing Keep or Delete as I think it would interfere with my work here as a closer, I'm just asking that those editors arguing for Deletion actually judge the merits of the article and not dismiss it because they find the subject distasteful and not in keeping with an online encyclopedia. Whether this article is Kept, Deleted, Redirected, Merged or Renamed, thanks to those participating editors here who kept their focus on policy-related aspects of this article. Liz Read! Talk! 02:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment On the other hand, BLPGOSSIP and NOTNEWS are certainly relevant here. The problem I am having with the Keep votes here (apart from the WP:ITSNOTABLE ones, which a closer should discount anyway), is that they are arguing the point of why we could keep this article, rather than focusing on the main point, which is whether we should. Black Kite (talk) 10:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Observation. I agree with Liz on all points. I closed the first AFD, and I too recuse. But it does seem to me that there is still room in this discussion for thoughtful consideration (and there certainly has been some already) of how this article does or does not fit into the scope of what Wikipedia's policies mean. We have chosen to base much of what we do on reliable sources, yet we retain our own role as editors shaping their material. The intersection IMO never has been cleanly defined, and grappling with that area might help the community resolve how it wishes to deal with information the reliable sources have provided. More broadly, it is gratifying to see this level of participation at Afd. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 03:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I agree with Liz. Wikipedia is Not censored. If it was it would harm the purpose of the encyclopedia, and the efforts of editors who put hundreds of hours into this site. Swordman97 talk to me 05:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Actually, NOTCENSORED is not a bright line. It clearly says in the second paragraph that it does not apply to material that is problematic as regards WP:BLP. Black Kite (talk) 11:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Liz is just plain wrong. Editors have naturally a "distaste" for poor editorial decisions, like having this article. They have a editorial objection to gossip mongering in any guise. They have an editorial objection to treatment of a BLP. They have an editorial disapproval of manufactured claims of long-term meaning with no backing of independent sources in serious study, and the elevation of things out of context, etc. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 18:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Irrespective of the AFDs or even BLPGOSSIP issues, the way this article is constructed represents a growing problem with how we approach topics on current events against the spirit of NOTNEWS. We're supposed to summarize news sources, and instead, this article maintained running coverage of the news (at least, related to her absence) without clearly establishing that this was going to have enduring significance. As a counter example, we have similarly constructed articles related to the Gaza conflict or the Ukraine conflict, but both of those have firmly established their long-term importance. The issue in this one is where the media opt to focus on something that they consider important but that is not related to longevity aspects. It was poorly approached at the start from this angle, and then you couple the issues of BLP/GOSSIP atop it and it makes it that much worse. Masem ( t) 18:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: per WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:NOTNEWS. This is unencyclopaedic gutter dribble. TarnishedPath talk 04:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete as WP:LASTING fail: This is fundamentally a media topic, and the sources for a quality article on this topic really should be peer-reviewed, but do not yet exist. Bilorv is right about that. Non-appearances are not events. A public figure visiting a store is not notable. The shutter speed of a camera is especially not notable, unless the episode is an example in an article about photo manipulation, where it could only be one of several if not many. Similarly, there is meat here for an article about the bread-and-circuses aspects of British monarchy, and/or its relationship to the press, but there too it would only be a single example, where surely Prince Harry and Princess Diana would be better-known instances. Some of the keep votes appear to believe that distaste motivates the delete votes. Possibly some, but not this one. Kate Middleton voluntarily became a public figure, and as insane as I find the fascination of a certain demographic with the royal family, I am possibly not as concerned with the BLP aspects of this as I should be. I speak for myself here. But speaking for policy, pray tell what lasting effect this episode is likely to have? The mind boggles. This really is fancruft. We don't even know what her illness actually is; "cancer" is not a thing. Possibly if it were known whether this was liver cancer or uterine cancer or ovarian cancer or pancreatic cancer some research effort might result. But we don't. Instead we have an article about a month in which the British press lost its mind, which it does, mind you, on the regular. Elinruby ( talk) 07:00, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
see Susan G. Komen for the Cure for example. But this is not that. Elinruby ( talk) 07:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep As per my previous reasoning. The topic has garnered considerable media attention and continues to do so as the narrative still evolves. The content may be amended if required though on the first glance it seems fine to me. I would not characterise it as libellious or otherwise improper. This is an important episode in the said person's public life which cannot be properly addressed in the overview article, so having a standalone article is in place. I support moving it to a better (more respectful) title. -- TadejM my talk 09:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per NOTNEWS — or NOTGOSSIP if there is such a thing! The topic is thoroughly unencyclopedic and the title should be downright embarrassing to whomever dreamed that up... That's your most likely search term? Really?!?!? Carrite ( talk) 19:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Bilorv's analysis of what this article/story is really about is on-point, as is Liz about the distaste motivation of many delete !voters. I come down on the side of keeping what we have, and evolving it towards what Bilorv wants to see as the sources become available. If it were possible to move it to draft space and keep there until those sources materialize, I would support that instead. Vadder ( talk) 20:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Do note that someone tried to close this as no consensus, citing the quality of arguments unlike the vote count which was used in the first nomination's closure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Killuminator ( talk • contribs) 21:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The first nomination's keep counts were way more overwhelming than this one (or this one's delete counts). Aaron Liu ( talk) 21:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I've left a note on the attempted closer's talkpage. It was a non-admin closure before the seven days had expired; Silver seren was right to revert. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 21:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: This is a regrettable vote in favor of keep, as I think the whole affair was rather distasteful. However, per policy, distasteful things can merit encyclopedic coverage. In this case, the gossip itself became the subject of widespread and sustained coverage. While the gossip alone would not merit even a mention in the article on Kate, the gossip was so widespread as to inspire independent coverage of it. I also definitely see this as an incident where LASTING is already fulfilled, given that the BBC is in hot water for its coverage of the affair. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 21:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Did you read that link? It lists a number of times the BBC is "in hot water" over its coverage of the Monarchy. This is just another time. No, there are no reliable independent sources with study on the media and these events, nor study on sociology and these events, nor study on the monarchy and these events, nor study on medical privacy and these events, nor study on anything and these events. If there are going to be those studies, they have not been published yet, and its definitely NOT Wikipedia's job to anticipate them. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 22:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    We needn't anticipate anything, given the coverage of the gossip and its fallout has already been discussed in reliable sources: USA Today, The Seattle Times (originally published by Mercury News), Harper's Bazaar, etc. Heck, the Archbishop of Canterbury commented on the matter. This is a notable incident with widespread, reliable coverage. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 22:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    None of those are studies of anything. Wikipedia is not the news, and Harper's Bazaar, you can't be serious. Nor does gossip not become gossip when it is repeated. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    You appear to misunderstand NOTNEWS, which is meant to prevent articles on common incidents the receive coverage (for example, a one-off, small-time robbery of a non-notable bank). It does not preclude articles on news items. Otherwise, half the articles that make it to ITN wouldn't qualify for articles before they could no longer appear at ITN. You seem also confused about the purpose of an article like this. This isn't to repeat gossip, but to describe it and its impact as reliable sources have. Wikipedia routinely discusses gossip and conspiracy theories without simply repeating it. ~ Pbritti ( tealk) 23:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Comment Hundreds of thousands of people a year develop some form of cancer. The only reason why her diagnosis would be special is that she is the Princess of Wales ie a celebrity. She went to a store! I would say alert the media, but apparently someone did. Because... she is a celebrity. Do your shopping trips draw news coverage? there is simply no event in this story that is notable if she is not a celebrity, and I actually question whether we need to know the fine details of her movements even if she unquestionably *is* famous. She is notable because she is the Princess of Wales, not for her engagement calendar of choreographed events, or her shopping trips or her health care. Should she shoot her husband, start a punk bank, delver food to Gaza or quarrel with the King there might possibly be an argument for the notability of her actions. But not for going to a store! It's a complete non-event. The media/online/public frenzy that *is* arguably notable is simply what she deals with on an ongoing basis. There is nothing unusual about the past couple of weeks except the exact flavour of the recent nuttiness. So the scope would need to be encompassing and not just about this particular Tulip frenzy. I just can't formulate a keep rationale. And I am an inclusionist and I am trying. By the way, I grant that I am not in Britain but when I typed "Where is Kate" into Google News an hour ago, my most recent result returned was 15 days old. I did see something yesterday about somebody apologizing for a joke. But it's hardly the ongoing feeding frenzy that some people seem to think is happening, and I wonder if they understand that the more that they themselves click on these articles the more of them that they (personally, not everyone) will get. Elinruby ( talk) 08:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    You appear to not understand, none of what you imagine requires a new article on Wikipedia, including a BLP problematic COATRACK. You seem confused that Wikipedia is just an article creating mouthpiece for whatever scandal de jour. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 23:13, April 2024 (UTC)
  • delete per WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:UNDUE, WP:BLP, and there's probably more I could throw in. Look, we have a section on "impact" which is just nonsense: there's no way there is enough distance from this event for anyone to be having a good idea of what the consequences will be. The rest is just blow-by-blow repetition of news coverage when a reasonable person has to figure that the cancer itself is going to have a much more substantial impact. This comes across as WP-papparazzi "oh, we have no choice but to publicize this— our readers demand it!" or more accurately, "our slavish devotion to making an article on everything that shows up in the major media demands it." And while I'm at it, this article also exists because of our seeming inability to summarize anything. At best the incident, in a reasonable, readable encyclopedia, would be a few sentences. This poject needs editors, not just writers. Mangoe ( talk) 02:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, per Masem and Mangoe. Fundamentally, this violates WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLPGOSSIP and I don't see this having WP:SUSTAINED coverage. The article may of course be recreated, but in its current state WP:TNT is the better option at our disposal. Pilaz ( talk) 17:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per many of the keep arguments above. Liz makes great points about the rationale of some of those voting for deletion. JM ( talk) 21:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

KBNI-LD

KBNI-LD (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not meet the GNG. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 21:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

William McLean (Quebec politician)

William McLean (Quebec politician) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Biography of a smalltown mayor not properly sourced as passing WP:NPOL #2. As usual, mayors are not "inherently" notable just for existing, and have to be shown to pass WP:GNG on a significant volume of reliable source coverage enabling us to write substantive content about their political impact (specific things they did, specific projects they spearheaded, specific effects their mayoralty had on the development of the community, and on and so forth) -- but this is referenced entirely to primary source directory entries that are not support for notability, with absolutely no evidence of third-party coverage in media or books shown at all. Bearcat ( talk) 21:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect‎ to George Lyon (Canadian politician). Liz Read! Talk! 23:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

William Radenhurst Richmond Lyon

William Radenhurst Richmond Lyon (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Unreferenced article about a political figure not shown as passing WP:NPOL. The attempted notability claim here is that he was mayor of a small town that has long since been eaten up as a city neighbourhood, which is not "inherently" notable in and of itself -- a mayor would have to pass WP:NPOL #2, which hinges on the depth of substance that can actually be written about his political impact and the volume of sourcing that can be shown to support it. But this is strictly on the level of "he is a mayor who existed, the end", and has been tagged as unsourced since 2009 without ever having any new references added to it. As well, notability is WP:NOTINHERITED, so he isn't automatically entitled to keep an unreferenced article just because some of his family members have articles. Bearcat ( talk) 20:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Tony Hinnigan

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Unref blp, doesn't meet WP:MUSICBIO / WP:GNG. Boleyn ( talk) 20:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Elisa Heinsohn

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Doesn't meet WP:BIO / WP:GNG. Boleyn ( talk) 20:19, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The Sinbadventurers

The result was speedy keep, nominator withdrawn. Mach61 12:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)‎ reply

The Sinbadventurers (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Not finding any good secondary sources outside the Norddeutscher Rundfunk review. No hits on ProQuest, which is always a bad sign for the notability of a contemporary western subject. Mach61 12:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Hi there, I created this entry about this opera because there is very little information on it in English. Although one could make the case that there is insufficient source material in English to warrant a wikipedia entry, I'd like to make the argument that a lot of readers would appreciate having a well-written entry in English as opposed to a computer-generated translation of the German entry. Google the opera under its German title "sindbadauken" and I think you'll see why I wanted to fill this void. Cheers! Cosmomontoya ( talk) 13:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Cosmomontoya There's no requirement sources be in English, but I did searches under both the German and English titles. If you can find reliable sources covering this play in depth in any language, please link them here, and I may withdraw this AfD. Mach61 13:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Here are links to some of the publications that I compiled information from when creating the article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtRIX_hN3PU&ab_channel=operapiccola
https://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/magazin/article205169549/Die-Hamburger-Sindbadauken.html
https://www.boosey.com/downloads/NB_Spezial_Kinderoper_web.pdf
https://www.francis-huesers.de/ver%C3%B6ffentlichungen/
https://www.francis-huesers.de/biographie/
https://www.theaterhagen.de/ueber-uns/schauspielermitarbeiter/?tx_theatre_actor%5Baction%5D=show&tx_theatre_actor%5Bactor%5D=1539&cHash=56264df84a11e77fc977e0753dc05562
https://issuu.com/staatsoper_hamburg/docs/oper_journal_3-14-15_b9c9088ff9088c
When I wrote the article, there was also a page on the composer's website which listed all of the cast members in English, however I'm not finding that anymore. This information looks like it is all on the YouTube page. Cosmomontoya ( talk) 21:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Cosmomontoya The Abendblatt source is the only relevant one mentioned for establishing compliance with the general notability guideline. While I suppose it counts, it's not very long, and much of its content is quotes by other people. Two relatively short reviews isn't enough to make a play notable IMO Mach61 22:56, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Just to be sure that we're talking about the same thing: the work is not a play but rather an opera. Moreover, it's an opera performed by children. These are quite rare, and this particular one is worth inclusion because it is a through-composed work, meaning the work starts and ends without interruption, as opposed to a musical, which is a mixture of dialogue (like a play) and music numbers. Hope this helps to clarify the "genre." Cosmomontoya ( talk) 11:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Cosmomontoya as there is no specialized notability guideline for operas, they fall under the aforementioned general notability guideline (GNG); the nature of the opera isn't really relevant to notability. If a third GNG-meeting source can be located, I will withdraw this deletion discussion. Mach61 11:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Mach61: What do you think of this source? I'm not sure what to make of it. Toughpigs ( talk) 20:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Toughpigs Though its the description entry for a recording of Sinbadventures, it mostly covers the opera piccola format without discussing this specific work in detail. Mach61 21:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
It's interesting that this page is in English and not in German: https://archiv.mimecentrum.de/videos/MCB-TV-8973
I missed it when I created the article, however it's interesting because it's written by the librettist. He gives insight into the creative process for the work.
I didn't reference this publication when I wrote the article, however here's a third source:
https://onlinemerker.com/hamburg-staatsoperopera-piccola-die-hamburger-sindbadauken-jugendoper/ Cosmomontoya ( talk) 05:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Cosmomontoya Alright, withdrawn Mach61 12:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 19:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

2024 Kolkata building collapse

2024 Kolkata building collapse (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Wikipedia is not news, this article does not pass WP:NEVENTS due to a lack of breadth of coverage. Sohom ( talk) 19:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Complex/ Rational 20:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hassan Basri Ridzuan

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In his relatively short career, it doesn't appear that he garnered enough significant coverage to meet even #5 of WP:SPORTBASIC, which is the minimum requirement. The best sources found were HMetro and Bharian, neither of which address the subject in any detail. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Complex/ Rational 20:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Zarulizwan Mazlan

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The current article doesn't show how the subject meets #5 of WP:SPORTBASIC and I wasn't able to find anything good in my searches. He is mentioned in passing on his FA's website about a youth fixture, NST, which mentions him in passing in a match report, and Bharian, another passing mention in a report about youth football. His entire career lasted only 170 mins and consisted only of games for Terengganu's reserve team. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect‎ to Anies Baswedan#Family. Liz Read! Talk! 23:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Mutiara Baswedan

Mutiara Baswedan (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This article was marked with notability concerns a month ago and looking at the articles cited, it seems that she is primarily notable for being the daughter of a governor/presidential candidate, which I think means she fails WP:GNG because she is not notable on her own. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 18:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Redirect. Another case of WP:INVALIDBIO, as her notability is tied to her father. I proposed to redirect this article to Anies Baswedan#Family. Ckfasdf ( talk) 21:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep There is no indication that the nominator has done WP:BEFORE before creating a deletion page [25]. He also lack the ability to understand about Indonesian subject and notability of sources used in the article as he did here in other nomination page that he created [26] [27]. 202.43.93.9 ( talk) 03:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
— 202.43.93.9 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

— Struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Comment This subject is listed as an educator, but their background does not satisfy WP:NPROF. Notability, if any, would rest on other criteria. Qflib ( talk) 02:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Redirect fails WP:GNG and WP:NPROF hence redirect to Anies Baswedan#Family. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 17:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect‎ to Muhammadiyah#Universities. Liz Read! Talk! 23:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

University of Muhammadiyah Aceh

University of Muhammadiyah Aceh (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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There is only one source and it is clearly not notable, searching for the university also seems not to have produced anything notable. Hence, it likely fails WP:GNG Allan Nonymous ( talk) 17:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was speedy keep‎. Nomination withdrawn with no remaining deletion proposals (non-admin closure) Atlantic306 ( talk) 21:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The Devil On Trial

The Devil On Trial (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Withdrawn OIM20 ( talk) 08:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Preserved
I apparently clicked the wrong one and put this up as PROD. Sorry about that. So, the user who created the page has been blocked on multiple accounts: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/সিডাটিভ হিপনোটিক্স. (per MushyYank request, stricken)

This page, before I did digging on it, was purely promotional. I added several sources (incidentally, my additions were the reason the PROD was removed), but I don't think this passes WP:NFILM, in my understanding.

It's possible that I'm not following something in the criteria that does make this notable, but I don't know that the documentary should have its own page. In reading the reviews, they focus mainly on the 1981 trial rather than on the film. Some of them mention The Conjuring: The Devil Made Me Do It. One of them mentioned an older documentary that they said "did it better".

I'm willing to dig for more sources if the community decides as a whole that it passes WP:NFILM. 1 might apply b/c there are reviews. But: its only claim to "historical notability" is its coverage of a historical event, of which it is not unique; I saw no indication that the film is up for any kind of award; as far as I know it hasn't been selected for preservation in a national archive; nor did I find any notice of it being taught in an accredited university's film program.

As for the inclusionary criteria that aren't part of the top : it's not unique in any aspect of its production; there aren't any major film stars in it; and it was made by Netflix, so it doesn't fall under the third one.

So, before I spend another several hours sussing out sources for something that, frankly, I stumbled over because of a CS1 error and was erroneously marked as AFI, I thought there should be consensus that it actually passes WP:NFILM. OIM20 ( talk) 16:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Film and Crime. OIM20 ( talk) 16:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: The film only needs to fit one of the criteria of WP:NFILM to demonstrate notability. (Otherwise, every film described on Wikipedia would have to win an award and be preserved in an archive, which is an absurdly high bar.) So the relevant measure here is that it's received multiple reviews. In this case, the combo of the Time article and the New York Times article are enough to demonstrate notability. Good job on rescuing the article! Toughpigs ( talk) 17:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Understood. To clarify, I meant that the PROD I placed on it myself was removed because of the sources I had added in, before I put the PROD on it. The reason given for removing the PROD was only that there were a number of sources. From what you've said I understand that the reason was b/c of the reviews.
    And to be fair, the two you mention were included in the promotional piece it was before, though the NYT review does not say what the article creator claimed it said.
    Part of my concern stems from the fact that many of the reviews focus in a large part on the incident rather than on the film. I don't think I included many of those - it was wee hours for me and I've since closed those tabs. There were a lot of reviews, but not all of them from places that I think are considered RS.
    But thank you for explaining. Since it only needs two reviews and it has a number, I will try to focus my research on the production and casting areas, to get a better source than IMDB. OIM20 ( talk) 18:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • I'm confused. What's the reason advanced for deletion exactly? The film received multiple reviews, including 1 in the NYT..... Strong keep. (I'm the one who deproDed the page, fwiw).- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 17:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I know you did. I'm not trying to be contrarian, though I'm sure it seems it. I really was thinking that this needed more than just reviews, so I misunderstood the criteria for NFILM. Not the first time I've misunderstood something.
    After I realized that the AFI was placed on the article erroneously, I looked into the article creator's talk page and found the note about them being a banned user. I realized when looking at the other pages in drafts listed on their talk page that they were posting promotional articles - which was what the other cleanup on the article you took care of (the sections I stopped at b/c I wasn't sure continuing would be worth the effort if it was just going to get nuked) were. Thank you for taking care of that.
    Thank you for your patience. I still consider myself relatively new. I'm trying to learn. OIM20 ( talk) 18:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Should i change my talk page? I do not wish or mean any harm to anyone.... please guide me, i will change accordingly. Omadacycline ( talk) 14:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Move to lowercase "on" if we keep it or recreate it again. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: @ OIM20: thank you for your clarifications and concern. Two things, though: 1) the user who created the page has been blocked on multiple accounts: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/সিডাটিভ হিপনোটিক্স: no, I read the page and I'm sorry but that's not accurate. The page creator is NOT blocked and he says he's not the person in question. Can I ask you to strike that comment or to rephrase that bit of your rationale at the very least, please? 2) Did I understand your current position: you now think the film is notable, am I right? Would you consider withdrawing? It might save other contributors some time. Thank you.- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank), 22:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, I'll withdraw - how do I do that? OIM20 ( talk) 05:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC); I think I understand how. OIM20 ( talk) 05:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Withdraw - I apologize for the trouble and thank everyone for their patience. OIM20 ( talk) 05:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Is there any problem with the content of the page?
    Sock? I am not any sock.
    And i just want to contribute..... the devil on trial is not about anyone.... I am confused, have i done anything wrong..... Omadacycline ( talk) 14:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The "Withdraw" notice you replied to means that the nomination is withdrawn. OIM20 ( talk) 07:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
the devil on trial: The Devil On Trial: Unpacking the reality behind Netflix's chilling documentary, is it a true story? - The Economic Times (indiatimes.com)
The Devil On Trial - Wikidata
The Devil on Trial (2023) - IMDb
Watch The Devil on Trial | Netflix Official Site
The Devil on Trial | Rotten Tomatoes Omadacycline ( talk) 14:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Linking to the Wikidata item isn't a source.
The others are on the page already, with the exception of the Economic Times. I don't know that there's much more to add that isn't about the case itself, unless there's a review in that article. I can't read it- it pops up a "login to read" screen and then it very kindly doesn't give me a spot to do that, or to create an account.
I'd like to have had a news article about the production process more, b/c I'd like to replace the one primary source for that. And I'd like to have something that lists the first two actors in the cast list other than the IMDB page, since that's a user edited site. But I didn't find either of those things. OIM20 ( talk) 08:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Ragged Islands

Ragged Islands (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This was created many years ago by a banned user. It is unsourced. I don't think it's a hoax, although it seems more likely based on my WP:BEFORE that there are a group of islands called Ragged Islands but not a "settlement" with that name. In any event, even if the place as named exists, I don't believe it meets the low bar of WP:NPLACE. Bbb23 ( talk) 16:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Canada. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 17:18, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This does exist as a group of islands, but not as a named settlement as the article claimed. I've rephrased it accordingly, but cannot find adequate sourcing to say anything more than "this exists, the end" — so even rewritten it still can't stick around without sourcing, but no prejudice against recreation if somebody can write something more substantial with better sources than I've been able to find. Bearcat ( talk) 17:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect‎ to List of television stations in South Carolina#LPTV stations. Liz Read! Talk! 23:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

W30CV-D

W30CV-D (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG; written like an advertisement. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 16:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

WXSX-LD

WXSX-LD (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not meet the GNG. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 16:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Arnold Shara

Arnold Shara (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Cricketer Lugstub that fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT. (proposed by JTtheOG) Avishai11 ( talk) 16:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Avishai11 Can you explain me why you removed the PROD and immediately nominated it for deletion via AFD? Uncontested PROD would anyway get deleted in 7 days' time. RoboCric Let's chat 16:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Oh my gosh! I am so sorry, as this was an accident. I clicked the wrong button. Is there any way to undo this? Avishai11 ( talk) 16:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep‎. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 06:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Low Pavement, Chesterfield

Low Pavement, Chesterfield (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I have not been able to find significant coverage of this road in reliable sources. The sources in the article are listings of individual buildings, but there's no evidence those buildings meet WP:NBUILDING. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 16:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography, Transportation, and England. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 16:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Low Pavement is mentioned in various directories from the 19th Century, two of which I've just added, not to mention 5 (technically 6) different listed buildings on the small street. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 16:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Listings in directories are not significant coverage, and having listed buildings doesn't establish notability of the street that they're on. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 16:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I have now added a couple of books that noted during the 1970s, the town council intended to demolish the buildings on the street, however decided the buildings together were considered to be of 'township merit' which is why the buildings are all listed around that time period. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 17:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Those sources seem to be talking more about the neighborhood overall, rather than Low Pavement, which is mentioned but not described in detail. The false bomb threat is a minor aspect of the street and doesn't contribute to the street's notability, nor is a bomb threat in itself notable per WP:1E. Additionally, while Chesterfield Market is likely notable, that doesn't mean Low Pavement is notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 19:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Added another notable event, the then Prince Charles and Princess Diana opening The Pavements Shopping Center on the street in November 1981, another surely notable event. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 19:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    There need to be sources showing that the street is notable, which means that it has significant coverage in reliable sources. The fact that an event occurred on the street does not mean that the street itself is notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 19:46, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    13 Grade II listed buildings, 2 Grade II listed Light posts, one of the oldest open-air markets in the country. the current king of England opening an indoor marketplace, and a recent bomb threat, I think that's plenty enough to prove the street's significance, but I'm of course happy to let others decide on this. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 20:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. The number of historic buildings along this street show clear evidence of notability. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    We still need SIGCOV to keep an article, rather than merging or some other ATD. Have you found any? voorts ( talk/ contributions) 15:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - While I'm not sure the bomb threat or the royal visit (both of which have happened in lots of places) contribute much to the Notability!, the listed buildings do. The buildings themselves meet WP:NBUILDING, by virtue of their listed status. The street is in a conservation area, [28] (see pages 27-8), which gives it both status and protection, and it won an award, [29]. Overall, I think there's enough. KJP1 ( talk) 10:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Notability is not inherited: having listed buildings and being in a conservation area does not make a street notable. By that logic, almost every street in every city would be notable because there's always something historic on most streets and many streets are in some type of designated arwa. Additionally, the inner city revitalization project won an award, not the street itself. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 15:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    By that logic, almost every street in every city would be notable because there's always something historic on most streets and many streets are in some type of designated arwa. That is very clearly not true. The vast majority of streets, even in countries with very long histories of built heritage like the UK, do not have a single listed building on them. And you're misunderstanding the argument. A street isn't inheriting notability from the historic buildings along it. The historic buildings along it shows that it is historic and therefore notable. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:31, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    A street isn't inheriting notability from the historic buildings along it. The historic buildings along it shows that it is historic and therefore notable. That's circular: the street is notable because it is historic, it is historic because it has historic buildings, and because it has historic buildings it's notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 15:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Voorts I'm really struggling to see your argument with this, a street becomes notable because of the buildings and features on the street, or events taking place on the street, there's not one piece of asphalt/concrete/cobblestone on the planet that is notable solely for existing. As @ KJP1 noted above, The street is in a conservation area, which gives it both status and protection, and it won an award. Overall, I think there's enough 13 Listed buildings on one street, the notable market, I really cannot see your argument for this not being notable.. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 17:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
This discussion is becoming rather philosophical. For me, a street covers the buildings that stand on it, it defines the area in which they stand. It can't just be the strip of tarmac down the middle. Queen Anne's Gate, which I'd agree is more notable than this, is important because it has a stack of Grade I listed buildings, in which notable people lived, worked, socialised, died. I don't think anyone would argue to AfD that, and the same argument holds true here. KJP1 ( talk) 17:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think you've summed it up perfectly there. @ KJP1 Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 17:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
a street becomes notable because of the buildings and features on the street, or events taking place on the street, there's not one piece of asphalt/concrete/cobblestone on the planet that is notable solely for existing That is incorrect. Notability is not defined by whether a subject (here, a street) is related to another notable subject (that is what I meant by notability is not inherited) A subject is notable for the purposes of Wikipedia if it meets the WP:GNG. The GNG defines a subject as notable if it has receiced significant coverage in relaivle sources.
Here, Low Pavement, Chesterfield, is not notable just because there may be notable buildings on the street (and as I've noted before, under the subject specific notability guideline for buildings, even being listed isn't enough: you still need to show signifcant coverage).
To use your example, Queen Anne's Gate is notable because a lot of people have written about it as a subject. If people have written significant coverage of Low Pavement, Chesterfield, then it would be notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 17:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Source assessment

This is not a full source assessment. I've already explained why the fact that a potentially notable shopping mall exists on the street and the fact that royals visited the shopping mall to open it doesn't establish notability. Likewise, a bomb threat at a local pub doesn't establish that the street that the pub is on is notable. Moreover, there is no SNG that states that having several listed buildings on a street establishes notability. If editors would like there to be one, they should suggest that, but we can't invent SNGs to fit our preferences during AfD discussions. To summarize the below, there are two sources, both by the same author, that discuss one aspect of the Low Pavement (its preservation), albeit in the broader context of revitalization of the area. I would not oppose merging some of the information here to Chesterfield, Derbyshire, or in creating an article for The Pavements, since that seems to be notable. I think it's a stretch to say that the street on its own is notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 01:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Source assessment table:
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward GNG?
Derbyshire Times Yes Yes No The source states, in full: "The name Low Pavement simply refers to the road on the lower side of the Market Place – the ‘new market’ laid out in the 1190s to replace Chesterfield’s original market place to the north of the parish church. What is now High Street was known as High Pavement until the 19th century." ✘ No
Bagshaw Yes ? No This is a list of businesses on the street from 1846. ✘ No
White Yes Yes No This is a list of businesses on the street from 1852. ✘ No
Bradley Yes Yes ~ Discusses preservation of Low Pavement as part of a broader revitalisation plan. ~ Partial
Sadler Yes Yes No The page linked to reprints an old advertisement from a business on Low Pavement. ✘ No
Picture the Past Yes Yes No This source is a photograph. ✘ No
Chesterfield Online Yes ? No This is a list of businesses on the street. ✘ No
Smith and Sykes Yes Yes No This is a travel guide that reviews some businesses on the street. ✘ No
Marsh No From the website's about page: "Destination Chesterfield delivers a number of marketing campaigns that are helping to improve the economic prosperity of Chesterfield by promoting it as a contemporary destination to inward investors and supporting existing businesses." No No The source merely notes that wosmething called the "Eco Hub" is located on Low Pavement, but does not discuss Low Pavement at all. ✘ No
Appraisal ? Appears to be an appraisal for the Town Council, but the authorship is unclear. ? There is no indication of fact-checking. Yes Contains significant coverage describing the street. ? Unknown
European Heritage Awards Yes Yes No This indicates that the Town Revitalisation won an award, but it does not discuss Low Pavement in any significant detail. ✘ No
Chesterfield Market By the Chesterfield Borough Council. ? Unknown whether this is fact-checked. No Low Pavement isn't even mentioned on this page. https://www.chesterfield.gov.uk/explore-chesterfield/markets-and-market-hall.aspx#:~:text=Chesterfield%20Market%20is%20one%20of,and%20events%20all%20year%20round. ✘ No
Revitalising Chesterfield Market No Govenment website. ? No Regarding Low Pavement, the source states in full: "The re-siting of market stalls currently located in New Square and on Low Pavement into a single market ground of 100 stalls in Market Square – creating a more defined and vibrant market area. The area will also include a flexible events space." ✘ No
Derbyshire Victoria County History Trust Yes Yes No Low Pavement appaers on the page twice, both in captions to photographs. ✘ No
Bradley 2 Yes Yes ~ Discusses preservation of Low Pavement as part of a broader revitalisation plan. ~ Partial
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}.

Comment on source analysis. The two sources "Bradley" and "Bradley2" are by the same author and so should be consolidated. When merged I would adjudge the overall coverage from the two combined to amount to significant coverage. Rupples ( talk) 18:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Point 2: It's highly likely the redevelopment of Low Pavement received ongoing coverage in The Derbyshire Times in the early 1980s. Unfortunately, the issues of the newspaper covering this period have not been scanned in to the British Newspaper Archive, though they would be available locally on microfilm at the main Chesterfield library. [30] Rupples ( talk) 19:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. The source analysis above while pointing to non-notability isn't the whole story. The street contains numerous listed buildings. We could presumably have a page for each one under WP:NBUILD. Surely better to have the street as a 'wrapper' for the notable buildings; perhaps there isn't enough to say about each one (I haven't checked whether there is or is not). So, strict interpretation of the notability guideline in the way argued by the nominator in this case doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. The article does require improvement though. Recommend removing the bomb threat piece; it is an insignificant and trivial moment in the street's history and detracts from the article's merit. Rupples ( talk) 00:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Erm. Just discovered the Low Pavement listed buildings are included within Listed buildings in Chesterfield, Derbyshire, which kind of negates my main reason for keeping this. Not sure now, so striking above !vote. Rupples ( talk) 03:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - one of the most notable streets in the town, and on balance I think there is enough for an article. I've added some more history, and if anyone has access to Bestall's History of Chesterfield books, I suspect there will be more in there. Warofdreams talk 00:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Merge to a new Chesterfield Town Centre article. There are also several listed buildings on Market Place and New Square on the opposite side of the square from this steet, as well as other nearby streets. With such an enormous number of listed buildings, there's also an enormous number of streets with multiple listed buildings, but that does not mean the street itself is necessarily notable. The town centre is a designated conservation area that includes other listed buildings and would provide better context as a notable area. Some of this article already duplicates Chesterfield,_Derbyshire#The_Pavements and Chesterfield,_Derbyshire#Shopping,_entertainment_and_leisure. Also, all these listed buildings are now just facades whose interiors are now part of The Pavements Shopping Centre. Maybe that should have an article instead. Reywas92 Talk 04:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect‎ to WSCG (TV). (non-admin closure) The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 04:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

WSCG-LD

WSCG-LD (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not meet the GNG. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 16:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Redirect to WSCG-TV: Honestly, given the fact that WSCG-LD once operated as an sattlelite station of WSCG as WGSA until they lost the rights to The CW by WSAV-DT2, that would be a really simple thing to do. mer764KCTV5 (He/Him | t • c) 17:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

User talk:Wcquidditch|☎]] ✎ 17:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Redirect to WSCG-TV per Mer764Wiki. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 18:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Vicky Goswami

Vicky Goswami (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non notable person, unclaimed married person and there’s no claim 100% which makes in Durg criminal HarshalDhotre06 ( talk) 15:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Christopher John Fields

Christopher John Fields (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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WP:BLP of a theatre director, not properly sourced as passing inclusion criteria for theatre directors. The main notability claim on offer here is that his work exists, which isn't "inherently" notable without WP:GNG-worthy coverage about it, but the sole footnote offers a blurb's worth of information about him in the process of being fundamentally about something else, which isn't enough to get him over GNG all by itself. Bearcat ( talk) 15:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 16:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Mikhail Khodunov

Mikhail Khodunov (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Doesn't seem to meet #5 of WP:SPORTBASIC and his professional career consisted only of 293 mins of game time. I found no decent coverage in Belarusian and Russian searches yielded only a trivial match report mention in Gorod214 and a list of footballers sitting on the bench in the same source. Neither of these show WP:SIGCOV. The articles in both Belarusian Wikipedias also don't show SIGCOV, just database sources. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 15:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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Amit Bhatia

The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn. ( non-admin closure)‎ Twinkle1990 ( talk) 08:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply


Amit Bhatia (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I don't see any reason for the existence of the article. Sources are mentions only. Failing WP:GNG, WP:INVALIDBIO as well as WP:THREE per WP:RS. Twinkle1990 ( talk) 15:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 14:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

FC Indiana Girls Academy

FC Indiana Girls Academy (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not have the WP:SIGCOV to meet the WP:GNG. The PROD was removed with the rationale that this should be merged and redirected to the main F.C. Indiana article but seeing as the title is incorrect and the page has been tagged as having no sources since 2015, I can't go along with that option. Let'srun ( talk) 14:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 14:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

A++

A++ (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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bundled nomination. all three articles were created by gploc, and cover essentially the same topic.

gploc is the creator of these languages - he owns the websites https://lambda-bound.de/ and https://lambda-bound.com/. i do not know what the first one is, but the second promotes a book about a++.

a quick look for sources all lead back to primary sources and this book.

this nomination is bundled with:

ARS++ (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

ARS-based programming (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ltb d l ( talk) 13:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Delete all. The language author has apparently written quite a lot on this topic, but as far as I can tell, one blog aside, nobody else has. ~ GQO talk! 15:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • delete as A412. Notability would stem from multiple independent sources, and these just aren't independent of the language author. Andy Dingley ( talk) 16:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I was unable to find sources apart from the author about these topics when I searched. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 19:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete/redirect A++ to A+, delete others A+ is definitely a plausible typo, but the concept itself here is non-notable. Nate • ( chatter) 23:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete for several reasons. The first reason is that there are no secondary sources

The second reason is that there are not many sources The third reason is that there are typographical errors. GQO ( talk) 6:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  • Delete Is there anything else than primary sources here? (rhetoric question) Rrjmrrr ( talk) 09:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep‎. (non-admin closure) The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 04:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Anil V. Kumar

Anil V. Kumar (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Failed WP:FILMMAKER, WP:DIRECTOR also Wikipedia general notability criteria. Youknowwhoistheman ( talk) 12:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep: Meets WP:DIRECTOR. Has several notable directions.
Rydex64 ( talk) 19:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep: Passes GNG per WP: SIGCOV. A bit WP: DIRECTOR since some of the films which are inarguably notable were co-directed. As the case may be, the subject passes WP: CREATIVE in filmmaking having been cited in sources for his Entertaining styles and film directing. Fills a bit of WP: ENT All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 23:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Looks like XFDcloser failed the "transclude to new log" again on this one.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Alpha3031 ( t • c) 13:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I don't understand the relisting when a simple consensus is met. All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 09:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Otuọcha, XFDcloser screwed up the relisting. When a discussion is relisted, it's taken off the old AFD daily log page and put on today's AFD daily log page. It looks like neither one of those things happened so it was wise to relist this discussion as no editors or closers would have gone back to the AFD daily log page from March 12th to review this discussion. It brought the discussion up from several weeks ago to this past week so fresh eyes could see it. Unfortunately though, we didn't get any new participants here but it will probably close over the next 24 hours. Liz Read! Talk! 23:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 14:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Marion Hepburn

Marion Hepburn (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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No significant coverage here, largely a collection of obituaries and an article in CTInsider from a "oldsaybrookhistory@gmail.com". WP:GNG seems to be failed here. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 12:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Connecticut. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 12:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors and Women. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 12:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Satisfies GNG with significant coverage in many books and periodicals. Amongst other coverage, she actually has an obituary in the New York Times [31]. There is also one in United Press International [32] and there are book reviews [33] [34] and other coverage of her books [35], amongst other coverage. James500 ( talk) 19:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I understand your concerns, and saw this as well. My concern here is that I'm not sure a single notable source covering one notable event of her life is enough to satisfy WP:GNG, particularly with respect to WP:BIO1E. I will grant that NYT is a very notable source, but I think more sources would be needed here. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 20:18, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I said "amongst other coverage". I have just added some additional items, and I could add even more. An obituary is a biography, not coverage of the event of a person's death, so BIO1E is not applicable. The obituary is not purely about her death, its also about her career as a historian and author, and her activist activities. I have never heard of a person with an NYT obituary being deleted, and I am under the impression that the community generally regard it as being overwhelming evidence of notability. James500 ( talk) 20:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    There are quite a few people with NYT obits not considered a good way of establishing notability beyond the death itself (see WP:OBITUARIES). The remaining books you cite seem to be tangential coverage, hence, not good for establishing notability.
    As for the WP:REDACT violation, I will WP:AGF, and WP:MUTUAL it. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 20:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am alarmed to see you edit a comment after someone has already responded to it, which violates WP:REDACT. Please put your changes below as a reply to the comment. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 20:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am alarmed to see an account with less than 970 edits, mostly made in a sudden recent burst, that has just nominated a person with an NYT obituary for deletion, badgering my !vote, and then wikilawyering, in an attempt to prevent me from adding additional sources. What you are asking me to do would make my !vote incomprehensible to the closing admin. James500 ( talk) 20:38, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Hi, I just want to be clear here that I wasn't assuming you were acting in bad faith here, I was merely concerned about the clarity of the discussion. (It generally makes sense in these cases for somebody to just say "hey I found some sources here" below to reinforce your point above rather than pre-address the comments be editing your vote, which can be quite confusing for people reading the discussion.) I was merely making a good faith request here, and apologize if it seemed like I was casting WP:ASPERSIONS. That being said, please refrain from doing the same to me. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am perfectly happy to WP:MUTUAL the whole thing. I accept that you were not trying to upset me, and I promise I was not trying to upset you either. No hard feelings? James500 ( talk) 21:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    None whatsoever here, and I appreciate your feedback on this AfD, even if I may disagree with it. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Meets WP:GNG. In addition to the NYT and UPI obituaries, here's a front-page one from the Hartford Courant: [36], [37]. A 1981 profile: [38]. She was making headlines for her writerly ambitions as a teenager: [39]. Jfire ( talk) 23:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Good find on [8]! Could you add it to the article? Allan Nonymous ( talk) 17:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep because of the obituaries identified in this discussion. Toughpigs ( talk) 21:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I in general have problems with the use of obituaries as sources (see WP:OBITUARIES). However, I think sources [8] and [9] provided by User:Jfire are quite compelling, and I want to thank him for doing the digging here. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 17:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per the comments here, this looks to be a solid Keep. Go4thProsper ( talk) 14:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 14:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Youngboi OG

AfDs for this article:
Youngboi OG (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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The sources that aren't deadlinks are all UGC. I'm not entirely convinced this isn't a G3 but I don't particularly feel the need for this to be speedied either, already had an admin look at it privately. Alpha3031 ( t • c) 12:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Delete: Most links listed doesn't exist. Appears to be a hoax. @T.C.G. [talk] 14:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep‎. Liz Read! Talk! 05:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Mind uploading in fiction

Mind uploading in fiction (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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The topic is likely notable (see SFE), but our execution is terrible. First, the prose part is pretty much unreferenced (the article is tagged with OR warning for 5 years now), then a gigantic list of random examples (mostly unreferenced too), failing WP:OR/ WP:V/ WP:IPC/ MOS:TRIVIA/ WP:NLIST/ WP:NOTTVTROPES/etc. Mind uploading does not have a section about 'fiction/culture', just mentions this article in lead. Looking at article's history, this was split (exorcised...) from the main article in the old 00's, and of course it had no references or such ( [40]). The article hasn't been improved since, quality wise, just accumulated more fancruft. WP:TNT is required. For now, this can be WP:ATD-Rredirected to the main article, with no prejudice for this being restored as an article - but it will need to be rewritten from scratch using reliable sources like the SFE article I've linked. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 08:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep Opening sentence of the deletion rational "The topic is likely notable" immediately followed by "but our execution is terrible" WP:DELETIONISNOTCLEANUP. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 07:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The nomination mentioned WP:V as a rationale for deletion, which is perfectly allowed by policy. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 07:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    There is nothing that is notable that is not also verifiable, per WP:NRVE. The fact that something notable is not verified is a surmountable problem, and not a reason for deletion. Jclemens ( talk) 03:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per all above. This is a sufficient kernel of an article to keep in mainspace. BD2412 T 15:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I see the article has been effectively TNTed and is being rewritten. As such my initial rationale no longer applies. Unless the article reverted to its older version, I also favour keeping the new version. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 05:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

List of songs about Chennai

AfDs for this article:
List of songs about Chennai (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Same reason as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs about Ahmedabad. The list fails WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:LISTN and WP:OR. There is little to nothing worthwhile in this list, be it content or context. This has even been deleted previously. Geschichte ( talk) 09:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, not eligible for Soft Deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 05:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The International Resource Privilege

The International Resource Privilege (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Incoherent start/stub article with a references list that despite its surface impressiveness doesn’t seem to demonstrate notability. While I personally agree completely with the sentiments expressed, it’s quite unclear that it passes encyclopedic muster, in my opinion. RadioactiveBoulevardier ( talk) 09:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Princess Augusta of Solms-Braunfels

Princess Augusta of Solms-Braunfels (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG. Apart from her marriage the article is entirely about her relations. Sourced only to one directory and three self-published genealogical websites. DrKay ( talk) 07:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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Delete: Very little is actually about her. 98.228.137.44 ( talk) 17:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

List of programmes broadcast by Channel U (Singapore)

List of programmes broadcast by Channel U (Singapore) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails NLIST and NOTDIRECTORY. Wikipedia is not a TVGuide.  //  Timothy ::  talk  14:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was Withdrawn * Pppery * it has begun... 04:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)‎ reply

1768 China sorcery panic

1768 China sorcery panic (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This article appears to be based mostly or entirely on a single source, to the point that it may qualify as copyright infringement. Whether the stated topic is notable is questionable; few sources other than the one used discuss it in any detail. As I noted in a previous discussion on this page, it's possible that the book itself is notable, but for the time being I'd suggest just deleting this page. SilverStar54 ( talk) 06:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • The article was created in 2020 by a student editor with 29 edits: all except the few statutory student guided-tour edits are on this article, and all were made between March and June 2020. No substantial edits (beyond gnomish fixes) have been made to the article since. All but 5 of the 51 citations are to Philip A. Kuhn's 1990 book Soulstealers. Kuhn makes clear this is a study, a single example of a sorcery panic; the other sources indicate similar witch-hunts around the world, and closely-similar "queue"- (pigtail-) stealing incidents at other times in China. Even Kuhn, therefore, does not assert that the 1768 incident that he uses as an example is "notable" in Wikipedia's terms: it is not, as nobody else has chosen to write about it. On the other hand, Witch-hunt is certainly notable, and is a reasonable redirect target. An alternative would be to create a stubby article from this one, Queue-cutting sorcery panics in China, giving the four dates (1768, 1810, 1867, and 1908) and trying to say a little (in balance) about each one. I'll support either the redirect or the reshaping as folks prefer; both solutions will result in most of the material here being cut. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 11:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Paranormal, and Religion. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 17:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I'd happily withdraw my nomination if someone volunteers to rewrite the page. If we're giving it a new title and substantially changing the content, it might make sense to WP:BLOWITUP and start over at the new location (perhaps that's what you were suggesting), especially since the content here could violate copyright. SilverStar54 ( talk) 16:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, that's what we should do. Fancy collaborating on that? Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Deletion is not cleanup. Seems to meet GNG. It has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Srnec ( talk) 00:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Srnec - one RS does not make a topic notable. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 07:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep easily meets WP:GNG, in that it has substantial coverage in at least three reliable sources. The state of the article should be irrelevant here as it's adequately sourced with inline citations.
    At the time the AfD was started it had three sources including the Kuhn book. @ Chiswick Chap why are you discounting the Chinese-language articles? Chang Shih-Ying's article is entirely about the article topic, and the Su Ping article devotes about three pages to this incident.
    I've added a fourth, from Kyoto University, it has a DOI number but I can't tell if it's a journal article or a research paper. I can verify through Google Translate that it's about the 1768 incident, and notably it predates the Kuhn book by three years. Oblivy ( talk) 01:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    My understanding is that the non-Kuhn sources rightly look at ALL the panics, not just Kuhn's example, and that the notable subject is the set if them, not one instance. We'll do much better to follow the sources evenly, not give a near-COPYVIO Kuhnfest in UNDUE detail. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 01:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Su Ping talks about two panics, one in 1768 and one in 1876. That, plus some analysis, is the entirety of the article, and three pages (nearly 3000 characters) of Chinese text is not de minimis coverage. Chang Shih-Ying is about the queue generally and draws both on Kuhn and Su Ping as well as other materials (apologies for misstating this earlier) but we're talking about notability not verifiability so I don't see that as an issue. Oblivy ( talk) 02:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The notable topic is the panics, plural, and there is precisely nothing stopping us from changing the scope to that. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 06:52, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Does seem to meet WP:GNG. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Withdrawn - Sounds like there are more reliable sources on this topic than I realized. I like @ Chiswick Chap's proposal to make this article about all of the queue-cutting panics. After this is closed I plan to start a move discussion.
SilverStar54 ( talk) 16:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 05:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Ziff (Book of Mormon)

Ziff (Book of Mormon) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This is a Sunday school lesson with no available independent reliable sources Big Money Threepwood ( talk) 06:08, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Religion, Christianity, and Latter Day Saints. Big Money Threepwood ( talk) 06:08, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This is an article about a piece of trivia; created 20 years ago, it hasn't improved much then, and improvement isn't possible because there isn't a body of secondary sources with meaningful coverage to cite. If there were Sunday School lessons, then there might be studies of its theological/cultural reception by the relevant religious community, but that's not the case. Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 06:46, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. WP:NOTDICT Speculation about one lone un-defined word found only twice in the Book of Mormon. — Maile ( talk) 12:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - WP:SYNTH and WP:DICDEF. This is not only a synthesis of original sources, but so short and lacking in context that it's a dictionary definition plus etymology. We are neither. Bearian ( talk) 20:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Per others above, this article does not establish notability. It reads like a dictionary entry and has no claim to notability in the sources.
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 05:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Inverse Ninjas VS. The Public Domain

Inverse Ninjas VS. The Public Domain (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Unfortunately non-notable. The article has secondary sources cited, each of them citing the game as an example of a trend of creative properties emerging after the expiry of Steamboat Willie in the public domain. In terms of the details about the game, the sources at best just repeat what the game page has to say. The sources lack reception and reviews about the game in a manner necessary to indicate that this game has notability beyond the novelty of its exploitation of the recent Steamboat Willie public domain. Given the specific context of the coverage, I would be comfortable to also consider merging this to Works based on a copyright-free Mickey Mouse although I can't comment on the strength of that article. Welcome any views or additional sources. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ ( talk) 05:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect‎ to Sujud Tilawa. as an ATD. Liz Read! Talk! 02:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Sajdah Places in Quran

Sajdah Places in Quran (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Cannot find actual sources that state "Sajdah Places in Quran" and also per WP:NOTGUIDE. Also I know AFDNOTCLEANUP but this is written religiously. 🍪 Cookie Monster 00:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

A redirect to Sujud Tilawa seems an obvious solution, given that the opening words are "Sajda in Quran, also known as Sujud at-Tilawah" (with a piped link). Any encyclopedic content here that can be sourced can be added to that page. UrielAcosta ( talk) 04:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 03:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was no consensus‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 13:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Susana Vinga

Susana Vinga (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Associate prof, some early career awards, decent number of citations but perhaps not especially high. Doesn't seem to meet WP:NPROF. Might be WP:TOOSOON or WP:MILL. Kj cheetham ( talk) 20:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC) reply

The notability is mainly "local" (national prizes in Mathematics and from the University of Lisbon, as mentioned).
Main achievements in alignment-free sequence analysis and comparison (link to page), and internationally in 2% of highly-cited researchers (2021 and career) by "Stanford University has released its global list that represents the top 2% of Scientists in various disciplines, on 10-10-2022" - DOI: 10.17632/btchxktzyw.4) (not yet on the page). 193.136.100.230 ( talk) 16:22, 21 February 2024 (UTC) reply
I like that citation. Thanks. -- User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 16:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC) reply
I did some looking into this data. Vinga is listed in the main sub-category of "bioinformatics". Based on her full career publication and citation record, the Stanford data places her at rank 91 out of 7,142 in this broad subfield; I believe this is a figure that supports her notability ... but need additional measures. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 02:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I think her citation record [41] is strong enough for WP:PROF#C1. — David Eppstein ( talk) 00:30, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    thanks - reviewing this ... -- User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 03:10, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    item G. in this Guideline states "Simply having authored a large number of published academic works is not considered sufficient to satisfy Criterion 1." --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 02:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    My opinion is not based on the number of works the subject has authored. It is based on the number of times those works were cited. Six publications with triple-digit citation counts (one with almost quadruple digits) is a good record, one that indicates that her works are having a substantial impact on other researchers in the area. — David Eppstein ( talk) 02:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete an h-index of 29 alone (rather low in a highly cited field such as biology) does not denote "a significant impact in their scholarly discipline [...] as demonstrated by independent reliable sources." as the "independent reliable sources" part is missing. No major award either, so I do not see any WP:NACADEMIC criteria being fulfilled. Broc ( talk) 15:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    The "independent reliable sources" are the 4282 academic publications that cite hers. That's what that phrase in that criterion means: many publications that cite the works of the subject. — David Eppstein ( talk) 17:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, h = 29 is not impressive in her field. To check, I looked at the data for another Portuguese informatician that I know (I won't give his name). He is probably 15 to 20 years older (important, because everyone's h increases with age), but it's hard to tell, because her article doesn't say when she was born and we don't know how long ago the photo was taken. Anyway, my informatician has a Google h = 60, and his most cited publication has 3800 citations. Athel cb ( talk) 09:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep -- per David Eppstein. The h-index argument is convincing. I'd like to see some kind of support for Broc's claim that h-indices run high in Biology. Central and Adams ( talk) 17:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    • It's a well known fact, but here's an article [42] where it is stated "For Biology [...] very highly cited scientists have h ≈ 150". So in my opinion an academic with h-index of 29 in biology is not at all "highly cited", hence doesn't meet C1. Broc ( talk) 21:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      • Broc, I don't even look at those things. If we cannot cite a specific instance of someone citing the work and proving its importance, what are we doing? Drmies ( talk) 03:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
        • @ Drmies I fully agree. Not one single reliable secondary sources describing the impact of the subject on her field of study has been brought up in this AfD. The only "keep" !votes entirely rely on the argument "she has many citations so she must be notable" and I wanted to show how this argument is faulty, as she is not a highly cited author in her field. Your argument still stand, and I agree with it: we do not want to host resumes of WP:MILL academics on Wikipedia. Broc ( talk) 10:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
          • The reason we have NPROF#C1 is that there may not be one single reliable secondary sources describing the impact of the subject on [their] field. Academic work can be quite significant before authors of the secondary lit catch on and this notability criterion is meant to account for that. Central and Adams ( talk) 13:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
            • Central and Adams, I am not at all convinced that that is the reason we have it. I think we have it because it's a thing that counts in some parts of academia at some points--in tenure and promotion. I had a look through the talk page archives of PROF, and what is obvious to me is (I'm summarizing from a few comments by editors like DGG and Randykitty--I cannot claim to have done a comprehensive survey) that any index is a rough guide (and that's still in PROF, at Wikipedia:Notability_(academics)#Citation_metrics), and that writing an article based on those metrics is, ahem, difficult. Plus, your argument is kind of contradictory. If a scholar is cited, then one should expect the citation to say something meaningful about the research or the scholar that was cited, unless, unless! we're just refbombing, like we do in certain disciplines (not mine). Having read quite a few sociology articles recently I'm even less infatuated with indices, and on top of that are the problems noted in various talk page discussions with Google Scholar. Drmies ( talk) 15:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
              • In the sciences authors are cited in research articles to acknowledge their original results, not to discuss the results or explain their meaning or impact. Those things are the province of expository writing rather than research. Scientists can have astonishing impacts on their field without being discussed in expository or other kinds of secondary writing. In the social sciences and humanities it's necessary to discuss these things in actual research because there's no epistemological consensus, but this doesn't happen in the sciences. No question that indicies are a rough guide, but I guess that's why we're having this discussion! Central and Adams ( talk) 15:52, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
                • I think you have a slightly optimistic view of the academic publishing industry. And I'm sorry, but about differing epistemologies leading to different kinds of consensus, I think you are wrong. Drmies ( talk) 21:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. I don't see an h-index argument--I see a citation, not an argument. I do see a counter argument to that claim. What I see is a resume without any secondary sources; primary/company links and Wikipedia articles don't count. As a BLP, it's so poorly verified that it should be sent back to draft space, and I do not see how this passes PROF, let alone the GNG. This shouldn't have been moved into mainspace. Drmies ( talk) 17:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Neutral. (Coming here after Drmies' ping). I currently don't have the time to look into this in great detail, just marking a few points. The citation record, as observed by David Epstein is more than solid. On the other hand, that seems to be most of what we have for an article, as I find the awards less than impressive. Looks like an "up-and-coming" scientist, but associate profs are not very often found notable yet. If some independent sources would come up on which an article can be based, I'd !vote "keep". -- Randykitty ( talk) 18:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    • Haha Randykitty, I figured you would say something along those lines--a position between your professional hard data and the requirements of secondary sourcing in the liberal arts way. Thanks for stopping by! Drmies ( talk) 21:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 00:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep: Very, very strong h-index metric, which strongly indicates her importance to her field— WP:PROF#C1. Anwegmann ( talk) 02:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    29 is not very, very strong. Athel cb ( talk) 10:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Very strong delete. Sorry, but the claims very strong h-index are not verifiable. I did the standard test of looking at the top people cited in the areas she lists in her Google Scholar page. The lowest cited area is "System bioinformatics" where she is competitive and 10th on the list. However, in her other areas she is not close to competitive. Her awards are all minor or junior (we really should say not to include them and the Stanford/Elsevier lists). Without significant acknowledgement of her by the wider community it is wP:TOOSOON. A strong start, but not enough. Ldm1954 ( talk) 22:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'm trying one more relist even though the pool of editors wanting to comment on articles on academics in AFD is limited. But I don't see a reconcilation or consensus here, either they meet Wikipedia:Notability (academics)#C1 or they don't.

Just as an aside, are articles for academics ever redirected to their institution in case they develop a more substantial profile in years to come? I haven't seen that proposed but thought I'd throw that out as an ATD.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC) reply

No, because if the article on the institution includes a list of its professors, it would only be a list of the bluelinked professors. So if we redirected, the article wouldn't mention the redirect target at all. — David Eppstein ( talk) 00:22, 10 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep per David Eppstein, especially "Six publications with triple-digit citation counts" a substantial count that is enough to pass NPROF criteria in her field. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 10:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Sorry, but "Six publications with triple-digit citation counts" is nothing special. The other Portuguese scientist I mentioned has 30. Athel cb ( talk) 10:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Eppstein. Xxanthippe ( talk) 09:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC). reply
  • Weak keep. Passes #C1 of WP:NPROF to my eyes. I don't usually recommend keeping associate professors (which is the "weak" part) but the sheer number of citations of her work alone is impressive, as is the number of citations that her most-cited papers have received. As I keep saying, passing one criterion is enough to meet the standard. Qflib ( talk) 20:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Procedural relist to get this lost AfD back in the system
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, * Pppery * it has begun... 02:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 02:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Roman Savchenko (footballer)

Roman Savchenko (footballer) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Appears to fail WP:SIGCOV, and thus WP:GNG. I did several searches in both English and Ukrainian, and only a hockey player came up. This could be a potential WP:TOOSOON situation. Anwegmann ( talk) 01:37, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Xaviersobased

Xaviersobased (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NMG -- non-notable musician. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 01:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Withdrawn by nominator -- appears they do in fact meet the notability minimums. Barely. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

https://www.stereogum.com/2247412/evilgiane-40-feat-nettspend-xaviersobased/music/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/xaviersobased-nettspend-yhapojj-interview-1234982383/
https://www.thefader.com/2023/09/18/song-you-need-xaviersobased-is-his-own-texture
https://www.hotnewhiphop.com/753698-xaviersobased-keep-it-goin-xav-soundcloud-tape-hip-hop-news
https://www.thefader.com/2023/04/24/song-you-need-xaviersobased-and-ayooliis-pop-trunk-is-a-fever-dream
https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/xaviersobased-and-kuru-paterson-new-jersey-new-song-listen/
https://ourgenerationmusic.com/exclusive/xaviersobased-interview-ogm/
https://au.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/50-innovators-shaping-rap-next-50-years-49231/xaviersobased-3-49267/
sorry for the wall of links, but for me, this sure meets "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself." for me Authenyo ( talk) 01:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment It seems I'm incorrect about the notability of this artist. I'll withdraw this nomination. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

List of tallest buildings in the European Union

List of tallest buildings in the European Union (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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WP:LISTN. Redundant list. It's basically the same list as List of tallest buildings in Europe minus Russia and Turkey. Randam ( talk) 01:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Delete too similar to List of tallest buildings in Europe. TheTankman ( talk) 19:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Dhaka Dazzlers

Dhaka Dazzlers (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable amateur sports team. Not enough coverage from reliable sources to establish notability. Fails WP:NSPORTS. CycloneYoris talk! 01:01, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Randykitty ( talk) 12:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Dope Caesar

Dope Caesar (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non- notable Dj and the news publication are not reliable mostly are blogs, More like an advert, Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. Subject failed WP:GNG Calyx2s ( talk) 11:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I meant Significant, independent and reliable (SIR), thank you for pointing out the wrong link shared. The article source are not WP:RS and also doesn't meet WP:SIGCOV. Wasilatlovekesy ( talk) 14:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
If not for the content, the three sources are from reliable sources in Nigeria: The Native Mag, NotJustOk and Culture Custodian. (Suggesting: this is just for WP:RS) and doesn't mean opposing/challenging the state of their content for now. All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 21:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. Tehonk ( talk) 18:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I am skeptical of the nominators statement of SIGCOV. Based in Nigeria sourcing, NotJustOk is a reliable source, and Culture custodian though it was a lyric and few I yet interviews. There are few coverage but fails WP: ANYBIO. Closer to notability though I am seeing a possible case of WP: UPE. All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 21:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep: Found these additional sources: Vanguard reliable per WP:NGRS, bellanaija 1 and bellanaija 2, which are generally unreliable per WP:NGRS. Out of the remaining articles, culturecustodian is a reliable source per NGRS, Naija News is borderline and the remaining are not listed, so they could go either way. Royal88888 ( talk) 08:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
On the Vanguard publications which is the first source see [ [43]] so can't be used and For the 2 and 3rd sources see Generally unreliable sources for Nigeria-related information Calyx2s ( talk) 00:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I do not think this passes WP:NSINGER or WP:ANYBIO. Aintabli ( talk) 22:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep - Of all the arguments so far, I find that by Royal88888 to be the most convincing, because the musician has been covered with a certain degree of professionalism by sources that have been deemed reliable at WP:NGRS. That coverage often lapses into typical promotional hype but there is some reliable info with which to build an encyclopedic article, though it would be a stub for the time being. The current WP article is pretty high on hype itself, but that junk can be removed through the standard editing process. --- DOOMSDAYER520 ( TALK| CONTRIBS) 17:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: Some of the sources cited are reliable and their coverage of the subject are fair enough to support the article. Museveni1700 ( talk) 20:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply
For some of the sources listed see [ [44]] and Generally unreliable sources for Nigeria-related information by so doing the article can't meet WP:THREE. Calyx2s ( talk) 01:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC) reply
The 1, 2 and 3rd source listed by him has no byline most likely promotional and the fourth sources is an interview the fifth is nothing to write home about. Calyx2s ( talk) 14:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: An analysis of sources would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts ( talk/ contributions) 00:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Delete. The subject fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. A Google search of her doesn't show her being discussed in reliable secondary sources. The Native and Culture Custodian sources are both interviews (primary sources) and cannot be used to establish notability. Career wise, the subject has not released notable songs or albums. It feels like she is still an up-and-coming disc jockey in the Nigerian music industry. I also feel like this is a case of WP:TOOSOON.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 15:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Kayden Kiewit

Kayden Kiewit (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Zeilinga Strydom

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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. A possible redirect seems to be List of South Africa national under-18 rugby union team players. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:53, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Cal Smid

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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete Again looks like a case of WP:TOOSOON on my part, when the guidelines were in the process of being changed. There is this but another source or two would still be required, again player hasn't really kicked on to create more coverage, and no suitable redirect. Rugbyfan22 ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Dameon Venter

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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. The closes to WP:SIGCOV that came up in my searches was this piece. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete Probably was a case of WP:TOOSOON on creation, while the guidelines were in process of being changed also. There's lots of coverage, but I don't think any of it reaches WP:GNG levels if I'm honest, and his career hasn't really kicked on, so delete as there's no redirect. Rugbyfan22 ( talk) 09:17, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Agreeing with other votes - does not meet WP:GNG - insufficiently notable. WmLawson ( talk) 00:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Bradley Thain

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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. The closes to WP:SIGCOV that came up in my searches was this transactional announcement. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2024_March_31&oldid=1217835343"
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The result was delete‎. Star Mississippi 23:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Penton Keah

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not notable by any measure. There is only one source from Sudans Post that mentions his name, which is a news outlet that belongs to his brother! Other than that, not even in-passing mentions. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 20:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep a basic internet search shows he is clearly notable in South Sudan. Probably not notable outside of South Sudan, but global notability is not a requirement of WP:SIGCOV and national coverage is enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Contributor892z ( talk • contribs) 13:09, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Please share that simple search?
    i above included a search with zero results FuzzyMagma ( talk) 13:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ FuzzyMagma: I really mean as simple as that [1]. You can quickly see that he has 1.8 million followers on Facebook, which is almost double the 1.0 million followers on Facebook that Jeremy Clarkson has, and nearly everyone in the UK knows who Jeremy Clarkson is. Contributor892z ( talk) 21:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Contributor892z: WP:GOOGLEHITS, WP:IKNOWIT. Eagles  24/7  (C) 13:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Eagles247: my point is the absolute opposite of WP:IKNOWIT. I never heard of the subject until this delete discussion. But then I searched his name and concluded that he must be a notable person in South Sudan, and this is exactly what his bio article is saying. Contributor892z ( talk) 13:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Eagles247: and WP:GOOGLEHITS is completely not applicable here. I’m using number of followers, a very objective measure of quality of the hit, and concluding that this number is consistent with the number of a notable person in South Sudan. Unless we change the rules of Wikipedia and say that notability only counts for people that appear in Western media, we need to use other tools to ascertain the notability of people that do not appear in Western media. Contributor892z ( talk) 13:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Contributor892z this is not a popularity contest fandom website, if that was the case, we would have written only about Youtubers and TikTokers.
    Please take a look to WP:42, these are the very basic criteria.
    This individual did not receive a significant coverage from multiple reliable and independent sources. As I mentioned in the nom, the two mentions comes from his brother (if not himself, as he is one of the founders of the Sudan Post, so not independent. And you are talking about Facebook followers, which is not a criteria for notability.
    Your whole reason for a keep is not a reason, and your comment should be stricken down as you clearly have no clue what WP:SIGCOV entails.
    As I said, if you can show, (and this is the bare minimum), significant coverage from multiple reliable and independent sources, then please enlighten us. And please check Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources before mentioning Facebook again. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 16:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ FuzzyMagma: such an unnecessary aggression! your comment should be stricken down as you clearly cannot have a dialogue with someone that has a different point of view. South Sudan is a country ravaged by war, the world youngest country. This subject has set up with his brother what is arguably the only independent news outlet of South Sudan. No country in the world seems to care about South Sudan. There is only one independent news source. How can any of those rules that you mention be possibly applicable? I'm not talking here about fandom website! I'm talking about using publicly available evidence to establish that someone is notable in a country that nobody in the West cares about. According to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources (which I know very well, by the way), you can't use Facebook as news source because it's self published with no editorial oversight. But that has nothing to do with what I'm saying! I'm using reliable information, independent of the subject, available on Facebook to show that this person has fulfilled requirement number 2 of WP:ENTERTAINER, namely: "The person has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment." which field? social media in South Sudan! Contributor892z ( talk) 17:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    you understand that is not a reliable source? Your opinion and google search is not a reliable source. do you understand that?
    read WP:Original research please, and please stop patronising me. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 18:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

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@ Contributor892z, you claim that FuzzyMagma's comment (which is correct about notability btw) is uncivil, but then you proceed to write an extremely aggressive comment which ignores policy. Facebook cannot be used as a source. " using reliable information, independent of the subject, available on Facebook " is the very definition of using a source. It does not matter if there is only 1 reliable outlet in South Sudan, if it's connected to him its not independent and thus cannot be used to establish notability. You have the gall to claim that you understand perennial sources, only to immediately contradict it, and say it doesn't apply. Industrial Insect (talk) 18:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Industrial Insect: and @ FuzzyMagma: this will be my last comment to prevent this discussion from becoming even more uncivil than already is. I’m not patronising anyone, not doing original research and not having an opinion. I’m just using a counter, which is a matter of fact and can be independently checked and audited by anyone. Whether I like the subject of this article or not, and whether I agree if his person is notable or not, this person has irrefutable evidence of having provided a contribution to a field of entertainment that is bigger than the contribution of other entertainers that are certain to stay in Wikipedia forever. Therefore, my assessment of keep stays. Contributor892z ( talk) 19:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
1) You have NOT proven the subject has satisfied WP:ENTERTAINER in any way. You've only explained the vague notion of "social media in South Sudan".
2) Even if you had, it must be verified by an independent, reliable source. Neither Facebook, nor the newspaper written by his brother can count towards this. Industrial Insect (talk) 13:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete after reading the discussion, this is a pretty clear case of failing to satisfy WP:GNG, WP:ENTERTAINER given the exactly 0 news hits a search returns.
Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep‎. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 05:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Sargam Koushal

Sargam Koushal (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Not notable due to WP:BLP1E and note that the other winners of Mrs. World do not have their own page, so precedent shows that there is no basis for creating a Wikipedia page just for women winning one low-profile marital pageant and doing nothing else with their reign. Fixthetyp0 ( talk) 15:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Note: I also wish to nominate the photo on Wikimedia Commons for deletion because I doubt this person who created a new account just to post this photo was truly submitting his "own work" (I suppose admin will have to look behind the scenes to see if this claim was convincing) but I do not know how to nominate photos for deletion. Fixthetyp0 ( talk) 15:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep: This article receives significant coverage according to the Wikipedia guideline on significant coverage per WP:SIGCOV. It also includes citations for different events like she was judge in Mrs South Africa 2023 (a national event), so it doesn't fall under the guideline for bio notable for single event per WP:BLP1E. However, the nominator claims that past winners lack Wikipedia articles. While some winners might not have articles, the presence or absence of articles for past winners is not a validity criterion for this specific article. Every article is evaluated on its own merits based on whether it meets the notability guidelines per WP:GNG and having WP: SIGCOV. Regards GAGIWOR ( talk) 07:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep: This is a case of WP:BLP1E and so is notable. There are SIGCOV and bearing the title for "Miss world" is heavy that it can be a stand-alone entry for Wikipedia! Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 01:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    WP:BLP1E is generally an argument against notability, not for it. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect‎ to Mir Mohammad Nasiruddin. as an ATD. Liz Read! Talk! 03:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Mir Mohammed Helal Uddin

AfDs for this article:
Mir Mohammed Helal Uddin (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Son of a notable politician. He has never been elected to public office, but is active within the party. The cited sources are passing mentions, not significant coverage. Searches found slightly deeper news coverage of his conviction for helping his dad conceal illegally acquired assets (he got 3 years, daddy got 13). [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]

He has only been written about in the context of his father, so my sense is that he is not notable. He is not a suitable subject for a stand alone article; he is a footnote to his father's biography. There is no content worth merging, but I could agree to a redirect to Mir Mohammad Nasiruddin, where his conviction is already mentioned. Worldbruce ( talk) 18:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete he never got as far as the ballot paper, so really just an aspiratoinal politician. He may have inhereted a perchant for doing crime, but notability is not inhereted. ---- D'n'B- t -- 18:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Fallen (Transformers)

AfDs for this article:
Fallen (Transformers) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This character does not have enough WP:SIGCOV or WP:RS. Most articles that mention him are just about the film and don't go in depth on this character. Searching for the alt name Megatronus gives no better results, just TFwiki and sporadic toy announcements from Transformers fan sites. The previous AfD had one keep vote without policy rationale and closed due to the nominator being blocked, the article has not improved since then. Impressive piece of WP:FANCRUFT though, but we're WP:NOTFANDOM. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 19:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Delete The sources seem to be either announcements or the script of the Revenge of the Fallen movie, which cannot be used as it is a primary source.
Industrial Insect (talk) 18:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete per Industrial Insect. Doesn't appear to reach WP:SIGCOV and it's already covered in other related articles. Shooterwalker ( talk) 15:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 07:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Victor Adegbile

Victor Adegbile (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Article about a non-notable businessperson. Sources are regular Run-of-the-mill and paid paid sources. This clearly states its sponsored. The rest of the sources are written by contributors and are WP:PROMO who in itself are not independent of the subject. Subjects fails WP:SIGCOV and WP:ANYBIO. Jamiebuba ( talk) 19:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete I don’t see anything in the bio that would make him notable, and the sources are interviews or churnalism. Mccapra ( talk) 06:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - I'm not convinced coverage describing him as "visionary" can be considered independent or reliable. Not notable — MaxnaCarta  (  💬 •  📝 ) 03:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 06:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Danish Ali

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Danish Ali (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I nominated it for deletion back in 2023 i guess but it was kept, but i feel like it still doesn't meet GNG so nominating it again. Most of the cited sources either do not meet WP:RS or are trivial mentions. Saqib ( talk) 16:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete: Still nothing found for this person. Nothing in Canadian sources; most if not all sites are where to see him perform or social media sites. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 23:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

WebFetch

WebFetch (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:N. None of the sources in the article establish notability, and I couldn’t find any sources that would establish notability. This had a failed PROD in 2009 because two sources were added at that time. However, those sources are either primary or don’t cover the subject in depth. HyperAccelerated ( talk) 18:23, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete: Primary sources now in the article, all I can find are download repositories. Not seeing notability. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Merge what can be merged to Web scraping, as I believe this is an instrumentality that enables that activity. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 01:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Does not have any secondary coverage to meet WP:GNG. (Merge not recommended as it is a Perl module used to essentially create a feed reader and there's no secondary sources anyways). StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 16:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Proposed coat of arms of North Macedonia

Proposed coat of arms of North Macedonia (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Originally researched article (for the most part) and completely redundant since the same information is already covered in National emblem of North Macedonia. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 21:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete, this is an unnecessary article. Jingiby ( talk) 05:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I note that most of the titles of this article in the other wikis translate to "Macedonian lion". If the Macedonian lion is notable enough, it can have its own standalone article with that title. It is a rather prominent symbol for some ethnic Macedonian orgs (such as VMRO-DPMNE). I otherwise agree that the potential for the lion to become the national emblem can just be covered in the National Emblem article. -- Local hero talk 15:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    It doesn't appear to be notable for its own standalone article. Otherwise there's already content about it on National symbols of North Macedonia. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 15:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. The lion used by DPMNE is solely an imitation of the symbols of the original organization from the end of the 19th century - BMARC, which borrowed the Bulgarian lion from the Bulgarian revolutionary traditions, that have nothing to do with any Macedonian lion. Jingiby ( talk) 19:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Comment: There's quite a few renames in the article's history:
~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 10:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 23:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

David S. Liem

David S. Liem (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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There is no notability claim in the article other than a those related to postdoctoral work on hepatology and that the a frog ( Taudactylus liemi)) was named after him. WP:NACADEMIC isn't met (unsurprising given that most of his career is outside of academia), and there are no other claims. I haven't been able to find other material supporting notability for this David Liem. Klbrain ( talk) 21:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep, while I acknowledge the current scarcity of sources provided for David Liem's Wikipedia article, it's important to consider the context in which the article was created. At the time of its creation, my primary focus was on promptly documenting Liem's contributions, particularly his discovery of the Rheobatrachus silus species. This urgency made me reach the realization that including Liem's page would complete and improve the species' article. Sources probably exist out there and we shouldn’t just delete it per WP:NPOSSIBLE. V.B.Speranza ( talk) 22:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Comment, I must address the procedural concerns surrounding the deletion request. The unilateral decision to move the article to a different page ( Eungella tinker frog) without prior consultation or discussion is concerning and goes against the collaborative nature of Wikipedia. Subsequently proposing the deletion of the article without engaging in constructive dialogue further exacerbates this issue as the person that nominated the article for deletion seems to have done it spontaneously. V.B.Speranza ( talk) 22:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
I'm sorry that this is all a bit blunt V.B.Sepanza, and thanks for your contributions to the project. The move was part of the new page patrol protocol which doesn't include or expect consultation prior to moves; I marked the move as bold, and don't mind being reversed. The next step, having been reversed, is to seek wider views here given that if the merge isn't a suitable alternative to deletion, then deletion seems the way forward. Thanks for adding your views as the page creator. Klbrain ( talk) 07:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Klbrain: Your deletion nomination brings 0 benefits to the community, Wikipedians seem to only care about known stuff while advocating for the contrary. The page is a direct translation of the German page that originates from the French page (created in 2009). V.B.Speranza ( talk) 22:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Randykitty ( talk) 12:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Kadama (App)

Kadama (App) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject fails GNG. None of these sources are independent of the subject as they all interview the subject's founders and many of these read like whitewashed PR. Chris Troutman ( talk) 22:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Software and Washington. Chris Troutman ( talk) 22:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Education and Internet. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Obvious spammy garbage with no meaningful RS and an obvious SPA who is trying to circumvent policy by moving this around. See also previous attempts. GRINCHIDICAE🎄 02:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am the creator of this article. I do not have any conflict of interest and was not aware that the page was deleted in 2018. Even if that was the case, I am sure back then they did not have as many news coverage as they have today, because you will notice from most their article dates, they are all after 2019. This is not a reason to delete the page. The only valid reason to delete a page is if they do not have enough new coverage, which they do.
    I'm familiar with the company through personal use of their application, and upon noticing the absence of a Wikipedia page about them, I took the initiative to create one. I am a new editor and had to look up what an "SPA" is and as you can see from my history I have done lot's of other edits and will be doing more in the future, so I am not an SPA. I wish Wikipedia would treat their new editors better than this, rather than accusing them of spam. Bradelykooper ( talk) 05:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep They have plenty of coverage to qualify. If you don't think its enough, do a Google search and you will find more. Coverage is present from credible publications such as Biz Journals, Bellevue College, GeekWire, Spoken Journal and more. Bradelykooper ( talk) 05:43, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete article reads like advertisement, definitely spammy, fails GNG and NCORP, sources are not good, so I fully agree with nom and Praxidicae. Tehonk ( talk) 06:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    As the author of the page, I've consciously avoided any language that might come across as promotional. If this remains a concern, I'm open to revising the content accordingly. Could you specify which parts you believe sound too much like an advertisement, so I can either adjust or eliminate them? Additionally, I've incorporated new sources discovered by the editor Royal88888 (below). Dismissing all sources as inadequate without explanation seems unfounded, particularly since many are from reputable outlets and some from university publications. Bradelykooper ( talk) 11:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Subject has more than enough news coverage to meet notability. I also found a few new ones. See GeekWire, King5, Washington.edu, bizjournals.com, and a few others. Royal88888 ( talk) 07:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep several of the sources look strong such as GeekWire, Washington University, and Bellevue College Articles. They have details of the company and its founders. I am not seeing anything that looks like PR and publications are reliable. COI issues should be addressed outside of AFD. Bikerose ( talk) 02:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Delete the sources here are marginal and when compounded with serious funny business with respect to this article, I feel a delete is pretty clear. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. In general, as a commercial application, guidance is to analyse under the criteria of WP:NCORP. There might be a little bit of wiggle room under GNG's independence requirements to accept the Bellevue and UW sources (though even there I would consider things marginal at best) but alumni interviews in school newsletters or a university article about their own startup accelerator are patently not acceptable under ORGCRIT. It is also unclear that such sources ever develop any "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" owing to their typically limited circulation. BizJournals coverage is also heavily based off interview content ( Wikipedia:Interviews) and cannot clearly establish independence on point 2 of ORGIND. The depth of coverage is also somewhat lacking. The next set of sources are the local sources like King 5 and Fox 13 ( KCPQ). Again, these are heavily based off interview content — even before considering circulation, we are looking at about one, maybe two sentences. Depth of analysis would fall under ORGTRIV. GeekWire is the only source so far that is marginally acceptable under NCORP, and it is only one source. Alpha3031 ( t • c) 10:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply

COMMENT - I am a representative at Kadama. I would like to bring to your attention that our company also has coverage in a Pearson Textbook that is used in Colleges and Universities. It is called "Entrepreneurship: Successfully Launching New Ventures" the 7th Edition. I have uploaded just the relevant pages here https://issuu.com/bsimonllc/docs/entrepreneurship .
In addition, I would like to say that there are some more articles about us beyond what’s referenced in this article, including:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/03/28/tiktok-challenges-congress-misinformation/


https://www.forbes.com/30-under-30/2022/education?profile=kadama

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/costco-gift-card-hack-reportedly-allows-non-members-shop-wholesale-club-know-this-secret

https://www.425business.com/in_print/page-24/page_4f244401-a414-5c46-8464-c90deaf63ec2.html

https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/12/this-week-in-apps-wwdc-21-highlights-instagram-creator-week-recap-android-12-beta-2-arrives

https://www.spokanejournal.com/articles/1858-northwest-entrepreneur-competition-names-winners

Thanks.

  • Comment The textbook coverage mentioned above can contribute to establishing notability in accordance with Wikipedia's guidelines. It offers substantial information about the company's origins and operations. However, the other sources mentioned are merely brief references and won't contribute to establishing notability. While I previously voted in favor of keeping the page, the detailed coverage in this textbook further reinforces the case for the company's notability. Royal88888 ( talk) 08:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Aloysius Ogbonna

Aloysius Ogbonna (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable traditional ruler. Fails WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO, probably WP:TOOSOON. Jamiebuba ( talk) 23:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Nigeria. Jamiebuba ( talk) 23:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Per nom. Just TOOSOON. Optional dratification. All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 08:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Week keep: Maybe WP:TOOSOON but that will also not bring notability later. Subject has appeared in multiple WP:RS like this, this and this talking about their emergence after 24years vacancy on the throne which is significant, this could make them pass WP:Basic. Also, the article is not harmful, hence my lean support. Kaizenify ( talk) 18:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    You are right, it is not harmful but again Too soon. Jamiebuba ( talk) 18:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per above. This is trying to build a tree from a leaf - first, Ogugu-Ntegbenese kingdom should be established with reliable sources ( Ogugu looks to be a different location), and properly de-orphaned. Then once that's done, the "kings", including a redirected Aloysius Ogbonna and the 24 year vacancy, might be covered there. ~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 09:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was no consensus‎. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 06:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Memory Palace

Memory Palace (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject fails WP:NALBUMS and WP:GNG. Of the five citations listed, the two PRP cites and both the substream and mosh cites uncritically republish the band's PR, with long quotation from one of the band members. Wikipedia could wait until the album actually comes out. Efforts to redirect this have failed. For me, I'd need to see cites from Blabbermouth and NME to think there's any general notability here. Chris Troutman ( talk) 02:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Note that I created the page as a redirect to method of loci; if its decided the article should be removed, it should be restored to the original edit rather than deleted. ·· gracefool 💬 00:16, 12 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep Band has history of lots of coverage, and there is already some for this album, which will certainly only gain more coverage once it is released. Seacactus 13 ( talk) 19:52, 29 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, agree with Chris Troutman on this. Think this is a bit preliminary for an album that both hasn't released and hasn't garnered significant coverage. Schrödinger's jellyfish  ✉ 16:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Revert to Redirect as primary meaning per Gracefool. Any album article should probably be named Memory Palace (2024 album) to distinguish it from the (also redlinked) 2008 album of the same name from Paul Haig and Billy Mackenzie, but it's clearly WP:TOOSOON currently for it to meet NALBUM until there's sufficient RS reviews. Articles covering band announcements are both run-of-the-mill and generally not independent, and sufficiently significant coverage of a creator and/or some of their works is WP:NOTINHERITED by other works. ~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 09:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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  • Redirect. The album is too soon, and I'm sensitive to User:Hydronium Hydroxide's desire to properly disambiguate the resulting redirect. We have no data on this album which might allow it to meet GNG or relevant SNGs. Redirects are cheap (and page history stays intact) as an AtD. BusterD ( talk) 14:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect‎ to List of television stations in California#LPTV stations. Liz Read! Talk! 23:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

KBBV-CD

KBBV-CD (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not meet the GNG. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 22:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Etienne Janeke

Etienne Janeke (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. JTtheOG ( talk) 22:01, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 22:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Statuska

Statuska (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Small company that does not yet meet WP:GNG. Current sourcing is churnalism and the section on the wearable device reads like an advert. (well actually the rest of the article also reads like an advert though perhaps not as strikingly) Pichpich ( talk) 21:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies, Websites, and Israel. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Nothing but press releases to be found. Amusingly, the article itself explains why: it's tiny for a social media platform, having only thousands of users. ~ A412 talk! 22:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete according to Wikipedia's notability guidelines, this article lacks sources to demonstrate the subject's notability. Dejaqo ( talk) 21:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete sources provided are PR type and from reliable. Fails GNG. LibStar ( talk) 21:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per all above. No objection to draftifying, would there be such a request. gidonb ( talk) 16:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Giovan Snyman

Giovan Snyman (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. JTtheOG ( talk) 21:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎.

The main arguments from delete !voters were WP:BLP (and specifically WP:BLPGOSSIP), WP:RECENT, and WP:NOTNEWS. They felt that, instead of focusing on the effects of the coverage itself, the article was excessively detailed on the subject's own actions. Some stated that the article is unencyclopedic, as it covered a number of only somewhat related events (a coatrack article). Some cited the ten-year test, which asks if the article's content will still be relevant in ten years.

Keep !voters felt that since the subject of the article has a significant amount of coverage, including in reliable sources, it is a notable topic and warrants a separate article. Some keep !voters felt that delete !voters' arguments were based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT; I do not think these keep !votes presented a strong argument.

I felt that the arguments based on WP:NOTNEWS, which is part of one of our core policies, were stronger than those based on the amount of coverage the topic has received. The consensus here is that there should not be a standalone article on this topic. Most people felt that, although there is significant coverage, the article contained more detail than was necessary, and a section in Catherine, Princess of Wales would be more appropriate.

—  Ingenuity ( talk •  contribs) 01:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Where is Kate?

AfDs for this article:
Where is Kate? (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Article history: For editors unfamiliar with this article and its torturous journey, welcome:

  • On 11 March, I created Where is Kate?, an article on the speculation surrounding the health and public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales, and the Mother's Day photograph that followed.
  • I immediately started the first AfD discussion, motivated by editors at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales who had resisted calls for including the topic on that article. The first AfD discussion closed on 19 March as keep.
  • From 20 March, editors at the BLP noticeboard raised concerns that the article violated WP:BLP, which was hardly cited in the first AfD.
  • On 21 March, Simonm223 initiated a deletion review, believing that the closing statement of the first AfD did not sufficiently weigh the BLP concerns. This deletion review closed on 31 March as no consensus.
  • With the announcement of the princess' cancer diagnosis on 22 March, TheSpacebook and I initiated a second AfD, which Liz procedurally closed in deference to the ongoing deletion review.

In their closing statement of the deletion review, Sandstein recommended discussion on the article talk page before bringing the article back to AfD. Respectfully, I think the BLP concerns presented by a broad range of editors suggest a strong case for deletion that, ultimately, can only be decided at AfD.

Deletion rationale: I agree with the first AfD's closing statement that this isn't a notability dispute, but rather a question of Wikipedia's scope. As the first AfD discussion suggested, neither WP:NOTNEWS nor WP:NOTGOSSIP necessarily preclude this article's existence, given that the topic, even the speculation, has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources – a matter which does not seem, on-the-whole, to be a point of contention. Not even a quotable part of WP:BLP produces any immediately-obvious rationales for deletion. Instead, in my view, the article merely but brazenly violates the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP, particularly WP:BLPGOSSIP:

Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.

This article cuts against the spirit of the policy, not any quotable text that is particularly fitting to this article's case. Of course "what is and isn't the scope of the Wikipedia" is an appropriate discussion for an AfD, because we have WP:NOT, and I see no reason why we cannot add nots that we believe should reasonably exist at this AfD, especially given that this article is clearly an edge case that concerns a BLP. AfD isn't a court interpreting law; it's a community review process in which editors can exercise discretion. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 21:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Comment: Some editors have remarked off-wiki that the article has the signature of a coatrack article, exemplified by the widespread dissatisfaction of the current article title and the lack of consensus for an alternative name. I think this is a symptom of the underlying problem – that the article is about a media craze. Finally, the speculation can be, and should be, adequately summarised in a few sentences in Catherine, Princess of Wales; I think a Merge is unnecessary as the sources are readily findable. Given the BLP violations, I think an eventual Redirect is fine, so long as the page history of the present article is deleted, which is why I am supporting Delete. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 21:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Well, information related to the Photograph controversy have already been covered under a subsection of "Privacy and Media". Further, there is sufficient information regarding the cancer diagnosis announcement following the abdominal surgery in January this year. At this point, I don't see what more can be actually added to the main article. Do you , @ IgnatiusofLondon, suggest that we should mention all those conspiracy theories or all those appearances like at the Windsor Farm Shop or leaving with her mother in a car to be noted? It would obviously not be relevant in the long term once she returns to public duties full-time and that too, stronger than ever before. Regards MSincccc ( talk) 05:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I'll be honest MSincccc: this comment strikes me as more evidence of the WP:OWNership issues at Catherine, Princess of Wales that motivated me to create Where is Kate? in the first place. I have made no comment about whether "there is sufficient information" or not in the article already; I don't see why this needs to cause alarm for you to leave comments in this AfD or at several editors' talkpages ( 1, 2) protesting that the current coverage is fine. It's not really the place of this AfD to discuss whether the existing summary of the topic at Catherine, Princess of Wales is sufficient; that question can easily be ironed out by local consensus/edits until the article reaches some stability. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 13:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I have always wanted to collaborate with you. The article needs to be fixed including its prose and citation parameters. I left a subtle message on your talk page as well. Regards and yours faithfully, MSincccc ( talk) 14:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I would say this topic can no longer be "gossip" or recent as it has sustained enough wide-ranging and neutral coverage.
Slamforeman ( talk) 22:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Women, Journalism, Photography, Conspiracy theories, Royalty and nobility, Medicine, Internet, and United Kingdom. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete In addition to comments made two deletion proposals ago, this article increasingly resembles fancruft and has content that's only tenuously added (the Queen Victoria stuff and media navel gazing). Killuminator ( talk) 23:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - I was debating whether to even get involved in this latest round of AfD but here we are. I think this is the sort of article Wikipedia should have from a reader's point of view - the reason I've known about the several different discussions around it is because I came to Wikipedia to try and find a well-written non-conspiratorial summary of this all. I think that's important to have, and I think (by and large) this article does that. For me, as long as it complies with policy, that's enough for a clear keep vote. I may be missing something obvious, but I don't see that the article violates the policies in question here; while this article could have been a pile of gossip (and I must commend the editors who have kept it from being so), I'm tending to think the different facets of the issue mean that it goes beyond that. In its current state, I personally don't see that it even violates the spirit of BLP or NOTNEWS. Having said all that, this is definitely a borderline case and I expect many editors will have different opinions to me. I do hope that this is the last time we have to have this discussion though! Thanks, Gazamp ( talk) 00:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Lean keep. Certainly an interesting case of mainstream gossip. At its core, it's gossip. But, in my opinion, this gossip has recieved a sufficient amount of coverage from non-gossip sources about where she was that it should be kept. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based on what reliable sources say. Whether or not we like the coverage reliable sources gave this gossip, they gave it coverage and Wikipedia should reflect that. Esolo5002 ( talk) 00:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep I'm reminded of the Nicola Bulley article, where a very British attitude to an event might not translate to other countries. This is a well maintained, well researched article about a very particular moment in culture, a slice of internet culture we could do well to retain. Notable in its peculiarity, and backed up by enough secondary sources. doktorb words deeds 05:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I agree that this page violates the spirit of WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:AVOIDVICTIM. Next thing you know we'll be creating a 100K page every time a world leader causes the chief accountant to resign by having the country pay for repairs to his pool when the country is at war. :) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 05:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic but that sort of thing would definitely warrant an article. Slamforeman ( talk) 05:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    A dedicated entry? Erm... no. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 05:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don’t see why not. This Netanyahu scandal might not have enough reliable sources or sustained coverage, but if it did, as is the case with Where is Kate?, an article on the topic would be very helpful (and would probably pass WP:GNG).
    As for WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:AVOIDVICTIM, they could most likely be solved by a light rewrite. Honestly though, I’ve yet to see a specific example of content in the article that violates those guidelines. Slamforeman ( talk) 06:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Slamforeman Just in case you have forgotten that this is an AfD and not a discussion page for what you are presently discussing. Please take Netanyahu related discussions to the appropriate talk page to not diverge from the main topic here,i.e., whether the article Where is Kate? should be retained or not. Regards MSincccc ( talk) 07:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes of course, @ MSincccc. I was just using an example to illustrate why this article should remain. Apologies for any confusion. Slamforeman ( talk) 14:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and boil down this tabloid trash to a one-line entry in the Middleton article with a redirect. It's WP:BLPGOSSIP and won't stand a ten week test, let alone a ten year test. This is an encyclopaedia, not the Daily Mail online. - SchroCat ( talk) 08:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Sure so but we have sufficient coverage on Catherine's recent health issues as well as the Photograph Controversy that gave a new momentum to all the needless speculation. At this point, there is not a need to add anything to the main article. Regards MSincccc ( talk) 08:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Do you also consider the edited photograph that made the Kensington Palace "No Longer A 'Trusted Source'" ( [16]) something that won't stand a ten year test? Bendegúz Ács ( talk) 16:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep The topic of "where is Kate", the photograph and related subjects still received significant coverage from multiple reliable, independent sources. The notability, or suitability, of the topic is not suddenly lost because of the diagnosis. I do support a rename to a more appropriate title. Skyshifter talk 11:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per SchroCat. Chris Troutman ( talk) 11:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete complete and utter tabloid drivel. Polyamorph ( talk) 11:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I am in complete agreement with User:SchroCat above. The article is against the spirit of WP and should never have been created in the first place. Sweetpool50 ( talk) 11:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete under both NOTNEWS and BLPGOSSIP, sadly given excessive weight by media fascinated by the Royal Family. As soon as she announced her diagnosis, coverage of the absence vanished from the media, indicating this entire period was overblown by the media. A few lines in the bio page should be sufficient to include the main points of this period, which is the appropriate summary of the news. -- Masem ( t) 11:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply

    A few lines in the bio page should be sufficient

    Would you include everything related to the edited photograph in the bio page as well? For example, the rare kill notices or that the Kensington Palace is "No Longer A 'Trusted Source'" ( [17])? Bendegúz Ács ( talk) 16:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I agree with the suggestion from SchroCat ( talk). Headhitter ( talk) 12:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • To the best of my knowledge, I have left talk-page notifications of this AfD to editors who contributed to the first AfD, BLPN discussion, deletion review, and second AfD. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 12:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep subject gained significant and WP:LASTING coverage in global media. Any WP:BLPGOSSIP concerns can be addressed via minor rewriting and therefore are WP:SURMOUNTABLE. Frank Anchor 12:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Adding that I consider a redirect and selective merge to Catherine, Princess of Wales as a viable option as well, though my first preference is keep. Frank Anchor 12:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Significant coverae across two months (and counting) is a strong indication of a lasting effect. Frank Anchor 12:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: We do not need an article for tabloid gossip. Drowssap SMM 12:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - As I expressed on the talk page, this article is fundamentally unencyclopedic. It's a longstanding principle that while everything we cover should have been covered by reliable sources, conversely, we are not required to cover everything which is covered by reliable sources. Exercising editorial judgment is our role as Wikipedians. This article fails the WP:10YEARTEST and does not add any value to Wikipedia. A social media feeding frenzy spilling into reliable sources =/= a notable event. One or two sentences on Catherine, Princess of Wales would be more than adequate to cover this non-event. In 10 years, the fact that "there were conspiracy theories and media speculation about Catherine's health and whereabouts before she announced she had cancer" will be enough to tell the reader everything they need to know at an appropriate level of detail and summarization. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 12:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete in favour of a short section in the main article. An article stuffed with WP:RECENTISM on a WP:BLP, purely driven by tabloid journalism and conspiracy theories should never have existed in the first place. It is noticeable that the coverage actually hasn't been WP:LASTING, disappearing to a trickle as soon as the diagnosis was announced, quite apart from the BLPGOSSIP issues with it. Black Kite (talk) 12:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I agree with MASEM and others. This is a perfect example of why an encyclopaedia should wait for the dust to settle before creating articles like this. We are not a news or gossip site. Mentioning briefly in her bio that there was intense media interest in her whereabouts and that she was the subject of conspiracy theories is fine, but this is more than excessive. Lard Almighty ( talk) 12:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep eventually though the article should be redirected to prevent BLP violations. It is best to draftify it for now until a point in which the gossip has died down a bit. An article about her cancer diagnosis might be too short right now and suffer many issues in the current article. ✶Qux yz ✶ 12:21, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    • I believe I was too tentative with my keep. I do still think caution should be exercised and that there are problematic areas of the article. However, throughout all of these discussions, I felt like all of the claims of BLP issues are tangential or blown out of proportion. Deletion arguments at the Horrifying Embarassment and this deletion seem to want to keep Wikipedia classy and sanitized and focus on the 'spirit of the . That is not its goal, it aims to collect all encyclopedic information in a free, neutral, and civil manner. I also doubt that the spirit of policies were so badly violated that the only option is deletion. Having an article about a significant phase of a political figure seems to fit most of those. Also, while I was skimming through the article I only found one key area I would question. It was a sentence describing the agencies as killing the image without elaboration with what the article meant by it specifically. The article does need to be trimmed, though. ✶Qux yz ✶ 01:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and condense any actually relevant information into Catherine, Princess of Wales. My stance is the same if not stronger than it was during the first AfD. The article is an absolute mess behaving in the exact same way as the royal-obsessed media. Wikipedia should be better than that. The cancer diagnosis proves the ridiculous nature of this article; as the speculation reports have subsequently vanished, this article should join them, because that is all it is: a sloppy, rehashed, gossip-riddled BLP violation of an individual's medical privacy that will not be notable a year from now, let alone ten years from now. "Catherine was diagnosed with cancer and the media (including Wikipedia) went crazy until forcing this announcement." That's the only detail that is notable. TNstingray ( talk) 12:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete in favour of a short section in the main article, per Black Kite's reasoning. The media frenzy was certainly significant enough to justify a mention in the main article, but it is not sufficiently notable to justify its own article. — The Anome ( talk) 12:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep for the foreseeable future. In my opinion, NOTNEWS and GOSSIP are negated by the reporting in reliable sources. Personally, I’m not overly worried about BLP violations from keeping this separate, so long as the focus is on the speculation and media frenzy and not on Catherine herself. IMO, there’s enough WP:SIGCOV to establish separate notability here. estar8806 ( talk) ★ 12:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete or heavily selectively merge per NOTNEWS. This is classic tabloid fodder making "news" out of an absence of news. We don't have an article on the March 2024 M25 closure and that will arguably have a greater long-term effect; instead, it gets two sentences in M25 motorway which place it in the context of the 50-year history of the road. You could justify more but not an entire article. Consider the 20-year test—all that will be remembered in 20 years is that she was out of the limelight while undergoing cancer treatment and that's all that any serious biography will say. Not everything that makes the front page of the newspaper needs a Wikipedia article, especially during silly season or slow news days. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    A comparison would perhaps be the late Queen's disappearances in the 1960s when she was pregnant. I'm not sure it's even mentioned anywhere - it's certainly not got it's own articles. Nfitz ( talk) 12:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • delete, just gossip and news, can be a single paragraph in the main article about her. Artem.G ( talk) 12:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete! I think my views on this are already quite well known; I've even been reported for expressing them too vehemently. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 12:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:BLP "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives". The article is pure gossip and facile conspiracy-theory-mongering regurgitated. That sections of the mass media find such regurgitation thinly disguised as 'reporting that people are gossiping' profitable is no reason for Wikipedia to engage in the same: they have to make a profit, we don't. WP:NOTGOSSIP clearly and unambiguously applies too, though frankly I'd have to suggest that the very fact that this 'article' has been permitted to exist as long as it has makes me wonder whether Wikipedia should consider dropping the pretence, along with any claims to be an encyclopaedia, rather than a mere collection of 'whatever lurid speculation we can find on the internet, cobbled together under convenient titles'. If the aim of this project is to do that, it should try to be honest with its readers. We owe them that much. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 12:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - clear violation of so many policies - with both the title and the contect. In addition to BLP that includes [WP:BLPGOSSIP]], WP:AVOIDVICTIM, WP:BLPPRIVACY, WP:CRACKPOT, WP:TABLOID, WP:PROPAGANDA, and WP:NOTSCANDAL. I'm not sure why this wasn't Speedied. Nfitz ( talk) 12:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Because of what happened in the first AfD, it could not be Speedied. The creator of the article went to AfD themselves to see what the consensus of the community was ten minutes after the article was created. In both of the discussions that matter, someone voted keep early on, also preventing a speedy close. So WP:SPEEDY could not apply either after 10 minutes from the article's creation or after four hours had passed from when both of the main nominations occurred. (The second AfD and nomination doesn't matter due to procedural reasons.) -- Super Goku V ( talk) 05:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, per many of the comments above. Two or three sentences in the article about her would suffice. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 12:50, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Nfitz, IgnatiusofLondon and many others. The article was made pre-maturely, and while it "may" have eventually become notable enough to meet NOTRECENT, it definitely won't be. Completely disagree with Estar8806's NOTNEWS and GOSSIP are negated by the reporting in reliable sources, that's the exact opposite of why both those exist. We need NOTNEWS and GOSSIP as pages "because" there is plenty of Reliably sourced info we do not want to include, otherwise we could just point to RS. Soni ( talk) 12:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    For what it's worth, NOTNEWS and NOTGOSSIP were addressed in the first AfD, which closed as Keep. Although not everything reliably reported needs to have an encyclopaedic article, this is really a question of what should, and the general view in that first AfD was "yes, this should". Annoyingly, other than BLP-handwaving, there isn't really much policy-wise we can point to to say "no, this shouldn't". And so, in my view, something needs to be added to WP:BLP expressly about media crazes on living persons. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 13:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    My point was orthogonal to the "Is this article passing NOTNEWS" (which we're currently saying "No" to, per WP:CCC). I was saying "RS cannot be enough to just overcome NOTNEWS by existing" (because otherwise NOTNEWS would be a redundant policy).
    WP:NOTGOSSIP is a policy already. I do agree though, we probably should have the policy amended to adjust for media fads. Soni ( talk) 13:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    (Including @ IgnatiusofLondon) I don't really see a need to try to amend NOTGOSSIP again. NOTGOSSIP is basically an anti-trivia policy on celebs and athletes to keep biography articles from getting cluttered with pointless facts about the person. "Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, matches played, or goals scored warrants inclusion in the biography of that person, only those for which they have notability or for which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest." (Emphasis mine) Even if we ignore that restriction, it would need to be argued that this was not notable or that there would be no reasonable reader interest, which isn't the case either as has passed notability and there are currently 1k daily readers with things on the quieter side. But, if you do feel like policy needs to be modified, I would suggest trying to have NOTGOSSIP modified so it applies to articles that cover events solely/primarily about the person.
    For BLP, I don't see where it can be modified to prohibit an article like this. (The reason? Because any such policy would nearly be guaranteed to be better off as part of NOT instead of BLP and it would be better off to modify NOTGOSSIP than to develop a standalone NOT policy.) Though, BLP could have a section that points to a specific NOT policy. -- Super Goku V ( talk) 05:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I think I agree with most of what you've said. My proposed modification is to WP:BLPGOSSIP, not WP:NOTGOSSIP. I've made some relevant comments about reasonable reader interest etc. at 16:48, 2 April 2024 (reply beginning Per previous commments, in my reading). IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 17:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete in favour of a short section in the main article. This whole affair won't be important in six weeks let alone six years - it is tedious gossip. firefly ( t · c ) 12:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete An absolutely ghastly embarrassment for Wikipedia, tabloid nonsense WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:TABLOID apply. Two sentences in her own article would suffice Theroadislong ( talk) 12:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep this is WP:bludgeoning and WP:forumshopping to the extreme. All the rational for the keep hasn't changed in the last however long but this has stemmed from a bunch of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and all the BLP issues people claim to identify above don't actually identify and BLP issues. Actual issues on the page should be challenged and remedied on the page, not here. microbiologyMarcus petri dish· growths 13:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I will agree. IDONTLIKEIT either, and I think the tone of the article should shift and also include all the controversy and backlash as a result of the subject of the article. But we must remember that we are at Articles for Deletion and there is not a valid deletion rationale for the deletion of the article. Anyone who identifies an actual issue regarding the content of the article with regard to our WP:BLP policy should be encouraged to challenge the content and discuss it on the talk page, as was recommended by the closure of the DRV. Everyone arguing that there is a policy based rationale here is not actually backing up their arguments with policy and examples to the text of the article. I must commend IgnatiusofLondon, the nominator, for their deletion rational which says violates the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP, particularly WP:BLPGOSSIP (emphasis in original) that everyone citing policy seems to overlook. Lets have an actual discussion about that if we must. But the arguments saying it does violate those policies are disingenuous. microbiologyMarcus petri dish· growths 14:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Recentism and tabloid gossip as per per Nfitz, IgnatiusofLondon et al. A few lines in List of conspiracy theories and Middleton's biographical article are all that's needed. Wellington Bay ( talk) 13:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per previous. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 13:09, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep I agree this third AfD is WP:bludgeoning and WP:forumshopping and wasting editors' time. And at least the digital manipulation of the Mother's Day photograph and its impact on fake news discussions is not WP:GOSSIP at all. Rwendland ( talk) 13:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Merge selectively into a section on her main article focusing on the photo manipulation "scandal" and the media fallout, rather than the gossip. I still think this deserves coverage as an interesting PR blunder but at this point I don't think the article is worth keeping. Estreyeria ( talk) 13:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Merge only the photoshopping incident, its reaction, and the cancer diagnosis are not gossip. The rest is unsalvagable. Aaron Liu ( talk) 13:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to Catherine, Princess of Wales. This article is a WP:COATRACK for gossip and speculation regarding a celebrity. The person is evidently notable but what little notable information that exists in this fork can easily fit into a paragraph on the parent article. I also have no opposition to a straightforward deletion on the same rationale. Simonm223 ( talk) 13:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Nope, just nope. This can easily be covered at Catherine, Princess of Wales.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Ganesha811 and HJ Mitchell. This is a 1E with likely zero enduring noteworthiness, worth about two sentences in the Princess' article. JFHJr ( ㊟) 14:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per IanMacM. St Anselm ( talk) 14:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:NOTGOSSIP and many other comments above. One or two lines covering her cancer diagnosis in her main bio are all that's relevant to Wikipedia; the fever-pitch gossip and breaking-news reporting of mad conspiracy theories have no place in an encyclopedia. If royal historians pick up on this incident and publish proper fact-checked accounts of it then we might have the basis for an article, but we absolutely should not be basing content on living persons off of celebrity news reporting. Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 14:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Ivanvector and various others above. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:BLPGOSSIP and many comments above. Reliable sources have tabloid and social-media-copying departments these days as well, so the existence of coverage in reliable sources should not preclude deletion under WP:NOTGOSSIP/ WP:NOTNEWS. Kwpolska ( spam me/ contributions) 14:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: it's not appropriate for us to host an article with this title, there's no content that it would be appropriate to merge, and it's not a useful redirect.— S Marshall  T/ C 14:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Move to Catherine, Princess of Wales public absence controversy, Kategate, Public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales — The issue is that this topic has a breadth of scope that must encompass unfounded conspiracy theories. It is that breadth of scope, however, that warrants a separate article. If editors are cognizant of falsehoods, this could persist as an article. The alleged health intrusion and an article I recently read in The New York Times associating Kate Middleton conspiracy theories with Russia solidified my stance. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 14:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete First, it's a terrible, uninformative title. Which could raise the possibility of simply renaming it. Most of the article consists of material that should be in Wikipedia somewhere. But with the long term view in mind, there is no reason for this particular way of bundling the material. North8000 ( talk) 15:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The contents of the article is a mashup of "everything Kate related for a 9 week period" including things that are otherwise unrelated, under a very bad useless title that doesn't describe the content. History will show that what's here is the first two months of her cancer story plus an unrelated "doctored photo" story. These two topics need to be covered in two places under under intelligent titles. 19:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC) North8000 ( talk) 19:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete for the litany of reasons in the Delete votes above mine. Fred Zepelin ( talk) 15:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Lean delete—I'm inclined to doubt that this "controversy" passes the WP:10 year test. ( t · c) buidhe 15:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Buidhe: the core of [WP:10 year test]] is to wait instead of rushing to deletion "Just wait and see. Remember there is no deadline, and consensus can change later on. Editors writing today do not have a historical perspective on today's events, and should not pretend to have a crystal ball... Above all else, editors should avoid getting into edit wars or contentious deletion discussions when trying to deal with recentism." It can't be used to justify a rush to deletion, it literally says above all else avoid rushing to deletion. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Well, a lot of Diana-related stuff apparently passes the 20-year test…who’s to say this is different? RadioactiveBoulevardier ( talk) 08:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Content and title can be addressed by editing and renaming. The deletion advocates have advanced no coherent, policy-based argument why deletion is necessary and other editorial measures will not suffice. Jclemens ( talk) 15:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Of note, no less than a dozen editors who opined an unqualified bolded delete opinion have mentioned merging part of the content, including multiple administrators who should know better: Per WP:CWW that would violate our license. The admin closing this discussion will undoubtedly soldier through and notice this, but those !voters doing this deserve the courtesy of being informed that they didn't vote for what they believe they did. Jclemens ( talk) 16:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Jclemens Are you seriously claiming that no merge or copying within Wikipedia is legal? Aaron Liu ( talk) 16:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Preserving the article history for any merged text is necessary so that the original content creators can have any kind of attribution. However, I think the delete !voters are arguing something else—not reusing any content from this article, but writing a brief summary on the other article. ( t · c) buidhe 16:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don't think the article history contains any particularly libelous or privacy-violating to necessitate a deletion of the history if we merge part of it. Aaron Liu ( talk) 16:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Even if it did, there are specific history deletion tools to that deleting the entire history would be unnecessary. Jclemens ( talk) 16:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    BS. All that is needed in a mere is to include references to atribution like a {{ merge from}} or similar template on the talk page to uphold the contribution part of the license. —  Masem ( t) 16:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    ... which in turn requires that that history remain extant somewhere to document the contributions, such as in a redirect (that is, not deletion), hence my original point stands. Jclemens ( talk) 19:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Well we may not have to use the exact text here, instead writing a wholly new summary using exist references. Or if needed, a redirect is created and protected from recreation. I don't think there is an argument that material here violates BLP in such a way to require revdel, so the redirect option is appropriate. But it is implied by the votes here editors don't want this recreated. —  Masem ( t) 20:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Sure: editing, redirection, merging, and renaming are all valid ways to re-shape the article to better reflect the new information. WP:MAD has been in plain sight explaining how to do this for 16+ years now. Key point: it's still not actually deletion even if it all goes away and/or is transmogrified beyond recognition. Jclemens ( talk) 21:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    NOATT seems to make it clear that attribution is needed if material by other contributors is duplicated. So I agree with Jclemens in that I don't see how we can delete the content and attribution, but then merge some of it to a separate article. -- Super Goku V ( talk) 06:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Where attribution is not needed (guideline, the same section): Content rewritten in one's own words does not need attribution. However, duplicating material by other contributors that is sufficiently creative to be copyrightable under US law (as the governing law for Wikipedia) requires attribution. As pointed out by replies in this sub-thread ( 1, 2, 3, 4), rewriting from sources is a more accurate interpretation of those delete recommendations than copying from Where is Kate?. Flatscan ( talk) 04:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    So:
    • Most Delete-supporting editors mentioning a merge* to Catherine, Princess of Wales seem to have in mind at most a paragraph. (*that is, saying that the topic should be summarised and treated at that article)
    • The current coverage of the topic at Catherine, Princess of Wales includes a paragraph on the Mother's Day photograph (under the subheading Photograph controversy) and this sentence (under the subheading Health): The subsequent speculation about Catherine's absence and health prompted various conspiracy theories and attracted extensive media attention.
    • I suspect this coverage is sufficient to satisfy most Delete-supporting editors who mention a merge.
    • Should anything else need to be added to Catherine, Princess of Wales, it will take two minutes to locate and add any of the multitude of reliable secondary sources covering this topic, without having to recycle any sentences from Where is Kate?.
    These facts considered, I don't think there is a sufficient amount to salvage from Where is Kate? for inclusion at Catherine, Princess of Wales that precludes deletion. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 10:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Indeed, I don't think it is correct that a dozen editors who bolded delete mentioned merging the article. For instance, Black Kite says Delete in favour of a short section in the main article. That is not suggesting anything here be merged to the main article, it is suggesting that a new short section be written. If you want to get there, you wouldn't start from here. No text need be copied from here. This text can be wholly ignored to do that. Note that it is very much not against the license to write new text, in your own words, in an article even if it collates information, and summarises text, from elsewhere. That is what most of Wikipedia is! Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 11:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I agree that Jclemens's count is off. Using Ctrl-F, I found few delete supporters recommending "copy"/"copied" (0) or "merge"/"merging" ( 1 before his count; 2, 3 after). Flatscan ( talk) 04:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    There was also a lot of this before the photograph, so maybe also prepend After rumors surrounding her lack of public appearances in some form before that paragraph. Aaron Liu ( talk) 11:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, leaning Draftify but keep name Notability of this went down like a lead balloon, probably because all those who reported on it would be hypocrites to talk about the coverage they took part in, and not many sources have been covering the coverage (what I think the article should be about). TheSpacebook ( talk) 15:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Wikipedia:Notability#Notability is not temporary Aaron Liu ( talk) 15:27, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    If it was notable once its always notable. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    What I mean specifically is that the topic has not sustained its notability, as per WP:SUSTAINED. TheSpacebook ( talk) 20:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    What do you mean? The topic continues to receive coverage, articles from the last 24 hours have even been linked to. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep, this isn't a particularly good article but it does appear to more than satisfy out criteria for a topic worthy of a stand-alone article. Content issues and not liking the name are not reason to delete. The Delete votes appear to be largely based on IDONTLIKEIT and blatant snobbery despite the rather lukewarm attempts to point to NOTNEWS (which actually seems to support keeping it) and NOTGOSSIP (which doesn't seem to support the argument for deleting it as strongly as some think)... "Ask yourself whether the source is reliable;" Yes it is "whether the material is being presented as true;" Yes it is "and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." Yes it is. For those making the 10 year argument... Do you honestly think that a biography of Middleton or the Royal Family published in ten years is going to not include this topic? Because I don't. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    • Not News applies as this was a burst of coverage that immediately died down as soon as she revealed why she had been absent from the public presence. With 20/20 hindsight, it should be clear that what was covered under that burst had no lasting significance and had several BLP violating issues. Remember that the GNG also warns if bursts of coverage, and even this did pass the GNG, that's not a guarantee of having a standalone article when other policies state otherwise. —  Masem ( t) 16:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
      • We're multiple months in now, there have been multiple bursts of coverage. Lasting significance has been established. Can you elaborate on the Not News argument? This doesn't meet the original reporting criteria, this doesn't meet the News reports criteria, this doesn't meet The Who's who criteria, and it doesn't meet the gossip and diary criteria... So if it doesn't fall under any of the four categories which make up not news what is the not news based argument? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
        • The celebrity gossip aspect of NOTNEWS applies, no questions asked. Every detail of a celebrity's life (of which Middleton is) should not be documented, even if that is something done by reliable sources. —  Masem ( t) 16:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
          • But we aren't documenting every detail, only those for which they have notability or for which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest. This would seem to clearly fall under the latter. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Only the photo scandal and cancer announcement seem to have notability. The rest can just be summarized as "After rumors surrounding her lack of public appearances,". Aaron Liu ( talk) 17:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Earlier you said merge, now you are saying that there are not only one but two notable topics? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            What? Non-sequitur. Aaron Liu ( talk) 11:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            How is pointing out that you've gone from arguing that there is no notable topic here to arguing that there are two notable topics here a non-sequitur? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 14:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Okay, I meant noteworthy. Aaron Liu ( talk) 15:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            The article is excessively detailed for what amounts to being one large piece of gossip (why was Middleton absent for several months). We have a definitive answer to that question with her announcement, so any media article that is talking to speculation prior to that is no longer a valid source to consider for sourcing (the idea that that speculation is moot). —  Masem ( t) 17:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            That is a unique take on what constitutes a valid source, thats is also not a piece of gossip... Many of the explanations were gossip but the question itself wasn't gossip, it was a valid question which turned out to have a valid answer. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 19:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Fairly I think trying to frame it around the media circus related to her absence may be a topic, as there seems to be a number of sources taking the media to task over how it handled this situation, but that would require rewriting this to remove a lot of the gossip facts that do not need the depth of coverage currently given. Mostly this would require more secondary sources speaking to the media circus factors. And that might require a TNT approach to write. But to add, it probably is easy to sum that up to Middleton's article for the time being. Do we have an article that details that media's fascination with the Royals and and their adjunct? Might be time to think about that... —  Masem ( t) 20:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Middleton's article is already lengthy, it seems like doing it there just to break it out again in a week or two isn't what TNT is for... TNT isn't for the "might" its for when you're certain that it can't be done otherwise. Most of the academic coverage is of the Royal family's cultivation and use of the media, people seem to understand why they're fascinating. The royals get wall to wall coverage because the royals have manipulated the media and social ecosystem for decades to justify their aristocratic privileges and make sure that they are never outside the media's attention. If this does get merged perhaps some belongs at Never complain, never explain, there is coverage along those lines [18]. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            The reason I call for TNT if this was to be refocused on the media spectacle is that the overall approach to the article would need to be to literally turn the topic inside out as it's written now to frame the media first and foremost and bury the nitpick details of speculation. And it does sound like a topic on the Royals and the media is ripe to be created. —  Masem ( t) 21:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            Masem I think that there could possibly be an encyclopedic article about media coverage of the royal family. But do the serious, preferably peer-reviewed sources exist yet? And would this incident if given proper due weight even form a significant past of such an article? A woman took some time off, was seen at a store and in a car, and turns out to be ill. Compare to Megan Markle or Princess Diana or even Prince Andrew. The doctored photo might possibly be a sign of hubris or desperation or vanity or ignorance, with a very slight chance it could be worked into a discussion of the mutually beneficial arrangement the palace has with Fleet Street maybe. Again though -- Harry felt he had to chose between his mother and his wife, Diana *died* and Prince Andrew was thoroughly disgraced with extreme prejudice. These events are notable. Thinking you know more about Photoshop than you do? Hmm. At most it could be one of several examples in a list of examples of astonishingly mindless coverage. Elinruby ( talk) 08:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
            It seems we have a lot of people who oppose coverage on any page at all beyond a single sentence or two... That is my main worry, that even if we decide to merge the content elsewhere people will continue to try and censor it. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 22:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
┌──────────────────────────────┘
Now that I have time to look, there's a section British royal family#Media and criticism that along with the two articles given as seealso, could be the founding of a good article about "Media coverage of the British royal family". I am sure that aspects of the media's coverage related to Princess Diana's death could have significant expansion.
what is key is that an article that focuses on the media aspects would not go into as many details into the personal facets of the royal family outside of key important points (here: Middleton had disappeared from public view for several months, at one point having the doctored Mother's day photo that led to more concerns, but all ending with her announcing her diagonsis, maybe 2-3 sentences *max* on those personal details), and instead the focus should be on the criticism of the media's over-reaction to her absence. What we don't need, for example, is the massive amount of speculation told from a primary source perspective (like the current Speculation section) or red herrings like the Windsor Farm shop video section; that's regardless of whether this is kept or if content is merged to a separate article. —  Masem ( t) 00:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
      • Also note the assertion that anything died down is mistaken, its easy to find very recent coverage [19] [20], so as you can see the impact is ongoing. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
        • That coverage seems like ongoing gossip-type coverage of the Royal family rather than actual coverage of the absence. No one is talking about the absence anymore because there's an honest and rational reason for it, and the media had overreacted with massive speculation. —  Masem ( t) 03:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
          • Except that it talks about the legacy/impact of the absence. You can't separate the absence from the cancer. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 14:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Actually, I don't think much of the conspiracy theory nonsense and tabloid gossip would be included, because most of it was complete bollocks. And I say that as someone who is no fan whatsoever of the royals, despite being a Brit. Black Kite (talk) 17:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • I don't think the argument has to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT/ WP:CRYBLP, but rather that this type of article, which is clearly an edge case, should be precluded by the policies cited (what I call their "spirit" in my nomination statement) by virtue of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, and if this type of article isn't obviously precluded, the policies should be clarified accordingly. At AfD, we have some discretion for policy interpretation, which is consistent with many of the Delete !votes. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 16:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    And what type of article is this? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    As I suggested at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Proposed expansion of WP:BLPGOSSIP, this is a media craze about an event in a living person's life, which can be adequately summarised for an encyclopedia reader's interests in the living person's article. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 16:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The topic here includes the "media craze," (not sure I've seen any RS describe it exactly that way though, they seem to be less aggressive and hyperbolic about it) that is currently the primary notable element. But more importantly not a single person other here other than you has said that media crazes are categorically not notable, nobody else is discussing whether articles about media crazes should be precluded by the spirit of the citied policies... Unless they're doing it in some sort of code. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:52, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Having invested so much emotional energy ovrr this fiasco, I am concerned that many of the Delete !votes here seem to circle back to arguments made and addressed at the first AfD, with simple nods to WP:NOTNEWS and WP:10YT, which I argued against. But yes, this is my argument: media crazes about an event in a living person's life, which can be adequately summarised for an encyclopedia reader's interests in the living person's article, violate the spirit of WP:NOT/ WP:BLP. This wasn't a rationale explicitly expressed at the first AfD. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 20:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep but rename -- the name of the article is ridiculous and unprofessional, but the content is well sourced coverage of an extremely widely-covered controversy across international news (and particularly in the U.S. media by mainstream, reliable sources). This isn't a short term, one-off event; this story dominated U.S. media coverage for weeks. "I don't like it." isn't a good enough reason to delete; nor is "The international media was mean to my favorite princess." ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 15:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, per NOTGOSSIP, SUSTAINED, BLPVICTIM, NOPAGE. If it's possible to cover this topic on existing pages, we should do that (and we can and do). We definitely do not need the tabloidy minutiae currently in the article anywhere else on this site. I would say many aspects of high-profile celebrities have enough IRS significant coverage, including lasting coverage, to meet GNG amply, yet we recognize these things don't need their own pages. What makes this any different? JoelleJay ( talk) 16:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Ah look! Something new in the letter jumble. What is "BLPVICTIM" it clearly can't be WP:AVOIDVICTIM because that doesn't apply here so what is it? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization. Sounds like it applies to me... this is after all fundamentally about the media frenzy over the lack of an event. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 17:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
How would writing an article about a media frenzy that is no longer happening prolong or participate in that media frenzy? -- Jfhutson ( talk) 18:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
It literally is participating in a "dead trend"? Just that the frenzy's gone doesn't mean making an article about the topic doesn't count as giving unwanted attention to an LP. Aaron Liu ( talk) 19:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
WP:AVOIDVICTIM is for "a person noteworthy only for one or two events" because it's inconceivable that this article could bring "unwanted attention" to the Princess. She is a public figure; that doesn't mean there are no rules but it does mean we don't have to worry about our article bringing her to the attention to someone who's never heard of her. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 19:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The subject does not appear to be the victim of a crime or of any relevant actions by another person. Let alone being primarily notable for such. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 19:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep First, it is unclear to me what a valid reason for deletion might be. The article subject is notable (there is no shortage of RS coverage); the article content itself is related to a valid, particularized subject--the disappearance from public view of one of the most public royals is certainly something which is identifiable as a subject; and the "BLP" claims seem hoary and ill-founded. Second, we have had two nominations and a deletion review in short order. We should respect the time and effort which went into those discussions by not continually holding the article in abeyance. Third, it's worth noting that this is an active subject! All we know for certain of her whereabouts is that Kate went into the hospital after Christmas and a video was released of her at the end of March. In the intervening time, the Royal family, one of the most powerful and well-connected institutions in the world, released misleading information to the press (in the form of a public statement which lied about when she went into the hospital and why), released a faked photo purportedly taken by the prince of wales and when the forgery was discovered blamed Kate for the "editing" mishaps (to be clear, this was a composite image likely from photos taken in 2023 doctored to alter the appearance of her children so the actual date would be difficult to discern), and countenanced to be released a telephoto image of "Kate" in a car with William. The Sun and TMZ (both owned by one individual now) released a video purporting to be her walking in late March which attributed to a photographer who disowned the material. Something is afoot. Corundum Conundrum (CC) 16:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Half of what you said is your personal opinion, basically advocating for keeping the article since the monarchy is dodgy in your opinion. First of all, what did they lie about in their initial announcement? And what's your proof that they "blamed Kate" for the photoshop fail? Can't a woman take responsibility for her mistakes or are we supposed to all rally around the damsel in distress? Keivan.f Talk 16:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I don't know where I said the monarchy is "dodgy". I'm also not sure what you're talking about vis a vis damsels in distress. Corundum Conundrum (CC) 16:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
You implied that the palace has thrown her under the bus by blaming her for the photoshop fail, which (again) is your opinion. We don't need to have an article dedicated to a person's whereabouts since some people might be having concerns about her wellbeing that are not necessarily rooted in reality. Keivan.f Talk 04:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete This article is a WP:COATRACK which will invite only more gossip and nonsense to be added to a page concerning a living person. WP:BLPGOSSIP clearly applies and so does WP:NOTNEWS as the coverage concerning the so-called conspiracies ceased once she made the announcement. 10 years from now no one would care about details concerning her medical leave. It will be reduced to a footnote in the overall scheme of her life. And we cannot keep the article in the expectation that something is going to happen. We don't have a WP:CRYSTALBALL. Keivan.f Talk 16:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
WP:10YT literally says don't rush to delete it because you don't have a crystal ball: "Just wait and see. Remember there is no deadline, and consensus can change later on. Editors writing today do not have a historical perspective on today's events, and should not pretend to have a crystal ball... Above all else, editors should avoid getting into edit wars or contentious deletion discussions when trying to deal with recentism." Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
WP:10YT states: "Will someone ten or twenty years from now be confused about how this article is written? In ten or twenty years will this addition still appear relevant? If I am devoting more time to it than other topics in the article, will it appear more relevant than what is already here?" The answer to all of that is pretty clear. This article is not even relevant at the moment. The woman has cancer and is undergoing chemo. There's nothing here to report upon, at least not in detail. Keivan.f Talk 16:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
So do you want to re-write the article or do you want to delete it? Because that part of 10YT is about balancing what is in an article, that is not the part about deleting articles. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The foundation of this article, which raises questions about the whereabouts of a living (and not missing) person, is wrong and even with WP:TNT you would not be able to get much out of it. Keivan.f Talk 04:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep Augmentation/retitling are reasonable suggestions, but deletion seems too far. The reaction to Kate's temporarily-unclear whereabouts was a notable, prominent, and somewhat unique phenomenon. Whether it was tacky or not, it occurred. SecretName101 ( talk) 16:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete; feeling too lazy to type a full rationale, but my reasoning is similar to HJ Mitchell. Celebrity gossip doesn't deserve an article. For some reason, I'm quite sure this vote would be more unanimous if this were any other celebrity, say, Rihanna or Swift; the Royal family should be treated no different. DFlhb ( talk) 16:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: This article is a clear violation of WP:BLPGOSSIP. The photoshopping incident can be moved into the main article but the rest clearly should be deleted. Loki ( talk) 17:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per many editors above. This is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid newspaper. If you want policy then WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLPGOSSIP will do. Phil Bridger ( talk) 17:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per many rationales expressed above, specifically those that cite WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLPGOSSIP. Little reason to think WP:LASTING applies.-- Trystan ( talk) 17:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete While news media covered speculation about Kate Middleton's whereabouts, there wasn't sufficient analysis to create a good article. Even if there was, the manner in which the article was created would justify WP:TNT: blow it up and start again. TFD ( talk) 17:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Clearly highly notable meme. Russians boosted it? Then talk about this within. That's part of the notability. Hyperbolick ( talk) 18:17, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: For what it's worth, I came into this thinking I would support delete, but after reading the article and this page I am now pretty convinced there is no reason to delete, and that the article is an interesting and informative piece that could be read 10 years from now by one interested in the monarchy and public affairs in this decade. The nominator points to the spirit of WP:BLPGOSSIP as the primary rationale for deletion. So I thought, regardless of that policy's text, what is the spirit of WP:BLPGOSSIP, or what is the reason I believe people should avoid repeating gossip? Google says gossip is "casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true." The harm of repeating gossip (even if you do not believe it to be true) is that it spreads potentially untrue speech which reflects poorly on people. But in this case, there is no speculation in the article about details of the princess's life that might reflect poorly on her that anyone could think is true. Everything that was mysterious has been made public by the person in question, the truth is not scandalous, and surely she would have eventually made it public even if she had not been forced. There is description of gossip (that she got plastic surgery or there was marital trouble) that happened during her absence, but as of today no one is continuing to gossip about that because the true reason for the absence came to light. It would be a reason for precluding those details while they were being gossiped about, but not once they were disproven (and we could even just delete the details of the gossip and simply say that there was speculation if there is still a WP:BLPGOSSIP concern). The only people that the facts in the article reflect poorly on are the paparazzi, the gossip magazine writers who harassed her during her absence, and the overly curious public. As for WP:NOTNEWS, I really don't think it's accurate that this is not an event of enduring notability. Surely this will be in the minds of many people the next time there is some kind of royal flare up, or someone of note gets cancer, or someone public disappears. The article's "Impact" section does a good job of using reliable sources to demonstrate that it has WP:LASTING impact and is a "catalyst" for several things (there are people under official investigation, there is an increase in cancer awareness, there are conspiracy theories and official reactions to conspiracy theories, there were changes in views on the monarchy, and many notable people apologized for their commentary). -- Jfhutson ( talk) 18:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I would point out that part of the concern for WP:BLPGOSSIP, including my own, is that it is both unnecessary to produce a content fork about tabloid speculation and beneath the dignity of the project. I have no great love for the subject and no particular interest in protecting her any more than any other BLP but I would not want such tawdry minutia about anyone on an encyclopedia. Simonm223 ( talk) 19:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Re WP:CONTENTFORK, if there is a fork you would need to point to the other page with the same scope (right now Catherine, Princess of Wales has an appropriate summary style pointer to the page under "Health." I don't think the overall subject, of the Princess of Wales disappearing for several months and then announcing to the world that she has cancer, is tawdry minutia. The announcement was covered on the front page of the New York Times as "putting a grim coda on months of rumors about her condition..." -- Jfhutson ( talk) 19:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Black Kite, AndyTheGrump, ianmacm and quite a lot of others. This clearly fails on multiple WP:NOT grounds which are clearly expresed above. Some good faith keep votes argue that the subject is notable. No secondary sourcing is brought to bear, but supposing we accept some such exists, should the article be kept? The answer is no. This, in fact, falls foul of WP:N, which states:

    A topic is presumed to merit an article if:
    1. It meets either the general notability guideline (GNG) below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific notability guideline (SNG); and
    2. It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy.

    Both arms of WP:N must be met to be notable per Wikipedia policy. Thus it is irrelevant whether the article might meet GNG or not. As long as it is excluded by WP:NOT, it is not notable for an encyclopaedic article. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 19:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Wait, are you saying that you have evaluated exactly none of the sources but that you don't need to because no matter how good they are and how many there are it doesn't matter? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    No, I didn't say that. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    You said you weren't even aware of the existence of secondary sources. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I said none had been brought to bear. The two you posted above, [21] and [22] are primary sources. No one else has posted any in this discussion. I also did not say "no matter how good they are". If a source were to be good enough that it refuted the WP:NOT arguments, then notability would no longer be excluded under WP:NOT. But that is the bar: you have to show that the NOT arguments do not hold, or else this subject is not, in fact, notable for an encyclopaedic article. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Generally what people do before commenting in a deletion discussion is review the article and its sources, you shouldn't expect them to spoon fed to you. Coverage of coverage is secondary, articles can contain both primary and secondary coverage. Its already been demonstrated that none of the NOT arguments hold. If you would like to try and make an argument which can hold please do so now. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Generally one also should not assume this has not been done. But if you are determined to continue to misread what I have written and to put words in my mouth, I suppose I shall leave it there with you. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Generally I assume it has been done, that is why I was shocked to see you apparently declaring that you had not done so. Which of the NOT arguments do you think has held up under scrutiny? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 21:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment If we delete this article, will there be a case for Where is Where is Kate? Edwardx ( talk) 20:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I feel (and fear) infinity raising its ugly head here. Phil Bridger ( talk) 20:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    With 71 participants in the first AfD, 45 in the second, and 75 and counting in this third AfD, this is not a bad question to ask... IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 22:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - We know where she is & why the previous secrecy. The rumors are irrelevant. GoodDay ( talk) 20:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I agree,it's a massive exaggeration to say that a photoshopped image( which has been done since Queen Victoria's reign) raised questions on relevance, integrity and consistency of the monarchy. The issue here is people demanded to know her private medical details hence the media frenzy, hsyteria and people have varying views on its impact ( see rolling stone contributer assertion that they ought to disclose more due to extensive international coverage), but i would suggest using reliable sources that actually have dealt with the monarchy as an institution over the years, all other reliable sources simply have opinions but if you would listen to, read from royal biographers or journalist who work with them closely you would realise this is a non-issue within the broader aspect of the monarchy which operates within the confines of its creation. I've just joined the wikipedia editors community but i would like to point out that the articles makes no reference to the fact that William missed his Godfather's memorial due to being informed on Catherine's cancer diagnosis. Further it makes light of the commentators who were not conspiratorial by referring to them as Kate's supporters. Ella Nya ( talk) 13:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Not only is it gossip, but the article wasn't even reporting about the gossip phenomenon but just perpetuating the gossip itself. While it technically meets WP:GNG, it is clearly excluded by WP:NOT, and (as per Sirfurboy above) is thus not suitable for an article. Chaotıċ Enby ( talk · contribs) 20:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. The "meme", if such it can be called, was astroturfing, with most of the traditional news media publishing opinion-tinged analyses of how foolish it was, and using the photo as a teachable moment on the high standards for authenticity that they have instituted because of the rise of first promotional photoshopping and subsequently AI-generated images. Since the public statement by this BLP subject that she has cancer, this emphasis in reliable sources on the social media phenomenon as having been baseless and ill-advised has been even more marked, with several articles suggesting misinformation by state-sponsored bad actors. And the basis of the "story" has collapsed, replaced by the context of her illness. It's not an independent encyclopaedic topic discussed in reliable sources, but rather an episode in the "health" part of her private life, and per BLP and UNDUE we must follow the best sources and therefore not elevate it in importance. IMO it shouldn't even be a subheading, much less an independent article, and the current title should either be deleted or redirect to an article on photo and news agency rules against manipulated photos and the history behind those rules, or some other broad topic related to press and/or social media coverage of people in the public eye. Yngvadottir ( talk) 21:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • For heavens sake: Delete, Delete, Delete Huldra ( talk) 21:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and Redirect to Catherine, Princess of Wales#Health where the appropriate level of coverage already is. — SmokeyJoe ( talk) 21:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Speedy Keep the first AdD closed as keep less than two weeks ago and was upheld in deletion review. WP:SKCRIT 2c: making nominations of the same page with the same arguments immediately after they were strongly rejected in a recently closed deletion discussion. The information that has been reported since the first AfD, such as speculators being correct and the issue of her health being worse than what was being reported by the palace, or if the affair was boosted as some kind of Russian disinformation campaign, only adds to the notability of the event.
Failing speedy, Keep. The first AfD already established the massive amount of significant coverage this affair received on the front pages of worldwide top-tier reliable sources.
This affair and article is not notable as a detailed accounting of the various surgeries and illnesses of the woman that crosses BLP lines. Rather, it's first a very prominent example of (some subset of, pro or con, true or false, good or bad) a conspiracy, conspiracy theory, media circus, missing white woman syndrome, Category:Royal scandals in the United Kingdom, etc. The coverage and internal handling of the event is itself notable, not each doctor's visit taken by the princess.
The second important facet of the article is the historic secrecy and " Never complain, never explain" public relations strategy of the British royal family crashing up against the modern information economy and strongly or lightly held criticism of the monarchy. This is clearly a trend and current historic moment/decade for the Monarchy of the United Kingdom, what with Brexit, Scottish independence referendums, Megxit, Prince Andrew & the Epstein Scandal, death of the Queen, coronation of the first new monarch in nearly 70 years, subsequent cancer diagnosis of Charles III, etc. This lens of the event is covered prominently by reliable sources and explicitly lists the veil of secrecy and failed PR around her health as one of the top crises currently enveloping the post-Elizabeth British monarchy as a whole. This view of the topic easily meets the WP:10YEARTEST and is sure to feature prominently in any history of this period of the monarchy.
If the votes go towards deletion, my preferred WP:ATD is to rename/merge the article to Mother's Day photograph of Catherine, Princess of Wales. The photograph is itself plainly notable, similar to Mug shot of Donald Trump or any of the Category:2020s photographs. That article could explain the photo's issuance and "kill notice" retraction plus some of the "Where is Kate?" background.
PK-WIKI ( talk) 21:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
How is someone famous releasing an edited photo even a thing worth more than a sentence? Some phones are doing that automatically now. It's not like they painted out Prince Trotsky or something - which surely is more noteworthy, and seems to get a single sentence; that's an example of something having longevity! There has to be some factor other than nutters nutting. Nfitz ( talk) 22:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Just because you don't see the value doesn't mean it doesn't exist... Thats why we generally defer to WP:RS when it comes to determining what proportional coverage is. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 22:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Censorship of images in the Soviet Union already exists; let's hope we don't need to create Censorship of images by the British monarchy. The Mother's Day photograph is worth more than a sentence due to its sustained coverage by reliable sources and their coverage of news agencies issuing an unprecedented "kill notice" for the royal photograph. PK-WIKI ( talk) 22:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
There are multiple deletion rationales that have been advanced at this AfD which were not or were hardly advanced at the first AfD, including WP:BLP and WP:BLPGOSSIP. We are therefore not dealing with the same arguments, and of course the other major event since the first AfD is the announcement of the princess' cancer diagnosis, which especially prompted a strong reaction and recontextualisation of the article at the second AfD. Coupled with the appetite for a fresh AfD expressed at the deletion review, I don't think speedy keep criteria apply, and the community seems happy to ignore WP:RENOM.
I'm not convinced that this will be remembered as a historic moment in the history of the monarchy akin to the other events and news stories you mention. Nonetheless, there is obviously relevance for conspiracy, conspiracy theory, media circus, missing white woman syndrome, never complain, never explain, and republicanism in the United Kingdom. But what about the topic, as a case study, merits a standalone article, rather than any brief mention/treatment in these separate articles, with a longer section at Catherine, Princess of Wales? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 11:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - ultimately, this entire artificial palaver is a footnote to the Princess's health, which is properly discussed in her main article. We are not Paris Match, we don't need this level of breaking-news minutiae, especially when the truth is now known and understood. GenevieveDEon ( talk) 21:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:BLP, WP:GOSSIP, WP:NOTTHENEWS. Xxanthippe ( talk) 22:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC). reply
  • Delete without prejudice to a limited amount of the material being merged. This is overcoverage of a tabloid invention. Having an article makes us complicit in the British tabloids' efforts to reify it into a thing. It is not a thing. There is no subject called "Where is Kate?" and there won't be unless, say, somebody were to write a book and give it that title. The frenzied speculation can be mentioned in the article about her. The way the British tabloid press completely shat the bed and had to rapidly reverse ferret, while blaming everybody other than themselves, can be mentioned in appropriate articles about the (very dignified) history of the British press. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 22:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I'm a little worried that my !vote might be misunderstood as suggesting that a rename could solve this, so I'd like to clarify that I don't believe that. There is no change of title that could address the fundamental problem here. Not only is there no subject called "Where is Kate?", I don't believe that there is a discrete, stand-alone topic here at all. What we have here are aspects of other topics that need to be covered, in a proportionate way, as parts of those other topics' articles. We are already doing that, so this article largely redundant. As I said before, anything that is worth merging can be. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 17:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep - the more that this goes on, the more that my position on the matter is settled. Many of the !votes on this article are close to WP:IDONTLIKEIT because of the subject of this article - WP:NOTGOSSIP only pertains to insignificant matter, which this is not. This will also likely be useful to future readers as a key example of how social media caused a conspiracy theory to go out of control so WP:CRYSTALBALL shouldn't apply here. WP should only make decisions on articles based on the Three Pillars. It's not original research, it's clearly verifiable, that just means that it comes down to NPOV, which is what most oppose !votes are about. One look at the article and it's clearly neutral, so it should stay. Swordman97 talk to me 22:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete To reiterate what I said in the previous AfD, the article is a blatant violation of WP:BLP and WP:GOSSIP. Even if it is top level news sources doing the celebrity gossip, it is still celebrity gossip nonetheless. And gossip based on pure speculation and not evidence, the worst kind of gossip WP:NOT policy violation. The article should never have been allowed in the first place as a split from the primary biographical subject. Silver seren C 22:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. We just had this discussion. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 23:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete but merge some information into the main article. The fact that there was much speculation is notable, and can be mentioned in the main article. What is not notable, however, is each of the particular theories and gossip; listing them fails WP:DUE and WP:BLPGOSSIP. Much of the Initial speculation and Reaction and increased coverage sections, and a good amount of the Windsor Farm Shop video and Reaction to propagation of conspiracy theories sections, contain such theories. Essentially, this article is just a big article of reactions, mixed together with a few good sections (the ones actually describing the situation). We should mention what is notable enough (that is, information about what actually happened, and not the speculation) in the main article, but that doesn't need its own article. Gödel2200 ( talk) 00:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Clear keep: Her inadequately explained period of absence from public appearances, and the way it was handled by her and her spokespeople, and the interest in the subject from the press and the general public, were the focus of a very large amount of coverage in independent reliable sources worldwide. Indeed, practically all broad-readership independent reliable sources covered it in substantial depth, and it would have been a disservice to readers if they had not. This is an obviously notable subject. —⁠ ⁠ BarrelProof ( talk) 02:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    As per the first AfD closure, my nomination statement, and Sirfurboy above, the notability of the topic isn't really under dispute: across the discussions, only a minority of editors have argued that this article isn't reliably sourced using secondary sources. Rather, the question is whether this topic falls into Wikipedia's scope. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 10:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    In this AfD the word notability currently appears 25 times and notable 34 times outside of this chain of comments. It seems like that makes discussing the notability or not understandable, despite the first AfD deemed notability not a problem. -- Super Goku V ( talk) 08:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    On Notability:
    As I am mentioned here, I'll clarify. There is often confusion between the General Notability Guidelines and the concept of Notability. GNG is where we get the requirement for significant coverage in multiple independent reliable secondary sources. However, notability is not established by meeting GNG alone. Notability for an encyclopaedic article relies upon meeting GNG and not having the article excluded under WP:NOT. Thus what I said is that even if GNG is met then this article is still not notable for an encyclopaedic article, because it is excluded under WP:NOT. That is the policy. So it is not notable. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 09:22, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    On Secondary Sourcing:
    I also did not say this article is reliably sourced using secondary sources. I cautioned that secondary sourcing had not been discussed in this AfD, and merely hypothesised that sufficient secondary sourcing may exist. On the matter of sources, I note that the question of primary and secondary sourcing is not nearly as cut and dried as most seem to think. Newspaper reports are generally primary sources. See, for instance WP:PRIMARYNEWS. But that is not always the case either. Whether a source is primary or secondary often relies upon the question being asked. Where the article tells us, for instance, that Catherine was seen in public, and relies on a newspaper article that says she was seen in public, that is clearly a primary source. This piece [23], however, takes a step back, contains opinion, and discusses the media furore. That is, on the face of it, a secondary source. But then, when we look what it verifies in the article, we see it being used to verify certain specific details (e.g. staying in hospital for 2 weeks) for which it is, in fact, a primary source. If we summarise the source we are using a secondary source, but we are not doing that.
    Newspaper reports (and this is almost all newspaper reports) are largely primary though. It is too soon for the kind of reliable secondary sourcing from which one might write a tertiary encyclopaedic article. This happens a lot on Wikipedia, and the community appears relaxed about this where we can, at least, suppose that proper histories will be written one day. But that cuts to the problem with this article, and why it fails on WP:NOT: any historical treatment of this matter will be all about Catherine's cancer diagnosis, treatment, and legacy. This media furore and rumour mill will be mentioned, but it won't be the focus of coverage, and this blow by blow newspaper style reporting will not appear in such sources. What we are trying to do, by relying on newspaper sources, is to be historians. We are using primary sources here to write a history of the event. Historians prefer the primary sources, because they are writing the secondary sources. But we are not doing history here. We are doing an encyclopaedia - a tertiary source. There is a reason for that, and this article demonstrates that reason. We are not doing the history very well (partly because we are actually in it, so can't see the wood for the trees, and partly because we are simply following the news reports without applying the critical and necessary original research demanded of the historian.) Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 09:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Within scope: If it is clearly acknowledged that the topic is notable, then I also argue it is within scope. While some would dismiss the subject as celebrity gossip, the events of the last three months have not been just gossip and speculation, and some amount of gossip and speculation were arguably natural responses to what was happening. The three-month phenomenon of her inadequately explained absence from public appearances is more than just gossip. Let's recount some of what happened here: 1) there was no clear explanation of what sort of surgery she underwent; 2) assurances were given that it was not cancer-related, which ultimately turned out to be false and was not corrected until long after some insiders knew it was false; 3) abdominal surgery generally does not require this long a period of recovery before an otherwise healthy person of her age can basically function at a normal level; 4) during this unusual period of being completely withdrawn from the public, there is a cheery photograph released, seemingly to try to keep a lid on the situation; 5) the "photograph" rapidly turns out to be some edited collage of different photographs pasted together; 6) she's noticeably not wearing a wedding ring in the picture; 7) a statement is released (again without appearing in public herself) saying she edited the photo herself; 8) she is suddenly sighted from afar at a market and captured in some choppy bystander video. This all happens in the setting of health issues for King Charles. These are all real events in the life of one of the most notable public figures in the world. Removing this sequence of events from Wikipedia or scattering it into snippets and summaries in other articles would not be appropriate. —⁠ ⁠ BarrelProof ( talk) 18:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    One of the most notable public figures in the world. Poppycock. She wields no political power whatsoever. She is only this in the minds of celebrity gossip-mongers. Phil Bridger ( talk) 18:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I'd agree with this if you remove the irrelevant "political power" part. I as a Chinese-American did not know anything about her until the photoshop stuff went out. Aaron Liu ( talk) 18:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Per WP:NOPAGE this topic (such as it is) would be better covered – briefly – in the main article. Bon courage ( talk) 03:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: the froth of speculation has receded, all the mystery has been cleared up, and there is nothing to say.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 03:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment I'm thinking back to the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann and the similar amount of comment, conspiracy theories, trolling, speculation etc. that occurred. The potential policy violations ( WP:BLP, WP:UNDUE, WP:GOSSIP etc. etc.) that have also been raised here were quickly identified, and after a month of heated discussion on the main article, a separate article, Reactions to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann emerged. I think that article could be a pattern for something like Reactions to Kate Middleton's 2024 illness. Again, things would need to be put into context and WP:BLP, WP:GOSSIP and WP:UNDUE would need to be considered. For example, the whole photo manupulation thing that is being used as a justification for keeping this article would need to be put into context. (Who hasn't enhanced a photo they've taken? This was clearly not done to deceive. It's not like Kate's head from another photo was photoshopped in to make her look more healthy than she was; the photo accurately depicts what it was purporting to depict.) That could be an article that would serve the purpose of having a record of what happened with due respect for our policies and the individuals invloved. But I still believe that this article as it stands should be deleted. Lard Almighty ( talk) 05:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - I really just wanted to walk away from this explosion, but I can only shield my nose from the smoke's toxic fumes so much until I need to breathe. As someone who generally cares little about the Royal Family, I honestly think that most of the people here arguing that this reads like a rejected Daily Mail thinkpiece have missed the point of this article in the first place. Where exactly are the disparaging comments made about her character? If there were any of those in the article, they were either deleted on sight or mere neutral reflections on what the media believed. This isn't an article explicitly asserting that she hid from the public eye due to some tinfoil-wrapped conspiracy. Rather, it's about how her seclusion led to speculation built from spread out straws, which she immediately blew away through her diagnosis, and the resulting fallout from the debris. I see NOTNEWS invoked as a point against this page, but the coverage that goes beyond routine announcements and speculation are more than enough to justify its encyclopedic value. The three lessons I take away from reading the page, along with the multiple secondary and reliable analysis pieces on this topic, are these:
1: Conspiracy - The general dangers of conspiracy theories in warping humanity's perceptions of reality, especially when intertwined with celebrity culture.
2: Celebrity Worship - Society's obsessive deification of public figures leading to our minds capturing these rare moments of vulnerability as if cracks suddenly appear in the statues we encased them in.
3: Social Media - The ease of social media perpetuating unfounded narratives with little regard for privacy or respect.
These three lessons prove that this incident means so much more than some "Metal Kate Solid" publicity stunt. It's an article that invites thought on various societal implications the same way a true encyclopedic article should. The only people this article insults are those who purported these awful takes in the first place - including both the mainstream press and the public at large. If Wikipedia wants to take itself seriously, it would keep this article as a mirror to reflect society's behavior in moments like this, because it's a reflection future generations deserve to see. PantheonRadiance ( talk) 07:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The article is definitely excessively detailed on the princess rather than the speculation: we don't need to know that her father-in-law visited her in hospital, that she had been planning a trip to Latvia in the spring, or that she was wearing sunglasses in the TMZ paparazzi photograph. But this is content that can be removed (though when I did, the edits were reverted).
I appreciate the importance of the news story on the (effect of social media on) conspiracy theories/celebrity worship. But what requires this "case study" to have a standalone article, rather than simply being mentioned on the relevant pages? For example, the kill notices issued on the Mother's Day photograph were significant; they receive a mention at kill notice. Can't the same be done at celebrity worship, conspiracy theories, and social media? What requires a standalone article? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 11:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think the question you're asking is covered at WP:PAGEDECIDE. I don't think anything requires that this have its own page, but if we concede it is a notable event, we should be asking which way makes it easiest to understand. There hasn't been a lot of discussion about that on this page that I have seen. "The decision should always be based upon specific considerations about how to make the topic understandable, and not merely upon personal likes or dislikes." To me, in understanding this event, it is more understandable to have this article than a few sentences in another article. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 13:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
My point is, per the example at kill notice, the significance of this event on all the various topics raised by PK-WIKI and PantheonRadiance can be adequately treated on pages for which the event has some resonance, without requiring a standalone article. For example, Where is Kate? currently reads:

Before the cancer announcement, commentators remarked on the royal family's adherence to their ' never complain, never explain' minimal disclosure strategy.

Never complain, never explain could be updated to include a paragraph (with better sourcing) along the lines of:

Following a planned abdominal surgical operation in January 2024, speculation on the health and public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales grew on social media and was widely reported by the international press. [a 1] Some commentators remarked on the royal family's adherence to the never complain, never explain strategy, [a 2] arguing that it only exacerbated speculation, [a 3] and was inadequate given the controversy's extensive coverage. [a 4]

An additional sentence or two could then be expended on the cancer diagnosis announcement and any subsequent commentary relevant to never complain, never explain. In my view, this is sufficient to understand the event's relevance to the strategy, and other aspects about the event (the nature of the speculation, the events that increased speculation, the sightings, the Mother's Day photograph) do not need to be explained to understand the event's relevance in this context, a hallmark of a WP:COATRACK. What information exists at Catherine, Princess of Wales will suffice – because this is, after all, not about the princess, but about the media craze.
For sure, understanding this event will always be easier in a standalone article than it would at Catherine, Princess of Wales. That doesn't get around the question of whether an article on this event (particularly given its BLP nature) and its minutiae is a suitable entry for an encyclopaedia – that is, whether Wikipedia should provide coverage for readers wanting to understand this event – which brings us to WP:NOT. Wikipedia can mention and analyse the speculation/controversy on all the articles for which it is relevant, but that does not mean it requires a standalone article amalgamating all that information. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 13:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
And what do you say to those who point out that Catherine, Princess of Wales is already a large article and that in order to cover this topic to NPOV standards would exceed the standard size of a good article and we would have to break out this or other topics anyway... NPOV doesn't let us write just a few sentences and NPOV is not negotiable. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 14:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
See my comment at 10:55 UTC 2 April 2024 (Most Delete-supporting editors mentioning a merge*...). My reply would be: what else needs to be added to Catherine, Princess of Wales? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 14:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I see somewhere between 40k and 60k bytes which would have to be merged there. Given the scope and volume of coverage we don't have an option here other than to cover it that extensively, even if we wanted to cover it less than the sources do we are bound by NPOV. No matter how much people want "at most a paragraph" isn't an option unless we go and rewrite NPOV. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 14:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Where are those 40k to 60k bytes coming from? What sections need to be merged? What makes the current coverage at Catherine, Princess of Wales insufficient for encyclopedic coverage? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 14:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Since this event is presumed to merit an article if it passes notability and NOT, then we would need to do our best to explain this event, and as you said that is better done in a standalone article than merging. So we are back to NOT. The text of NOTNEWS has to do with enduring notability. I think the "lessons" above contribute to the idea that this will likely have enduring notability. I think the Impact section of the article also contributes. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 15:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
So we are back to the spirit of policy, not its letter. Only criterion 2 of 4 of WP:NOTNEWS concerns enduring notability, and seems to have in mind events like 2023 Milan nursing home fire; this criterion isn't directly applicable in Where is Kate?'s case, though criterion 2 might have something to say about how the article discusses some individual events (e.g. William missing the memorial service, the Windsor Farm Shop video). Some editorial revisions can help. Criterion 4 of NOTNEWS is more promising – it's not about enduring notability, but celebrity gossip. Still, as I said in my nomination statement, I think WP:BLPGOSSIP is more applicable than WP:NOTGOSSIP. Finally, per my previous comments, I agree that there is discussion in the impact section, usually relating to specific events or themes discussed in Where is Kate?, that is relevant for articles like Republicanism in the United Kingdom; it still doesn't justify a standalone article on the set of events and themes from the speculation/controversy. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 16:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think you need to lay out what you think the spirit of the policy is, otherwise it's IDONTLIKEIT. To me, the spirit of anti-gossip policy is to avoid spreading speculation and conspiracy theories that could harm people. But right now we don't have speculation that's in danger of being spread, all the rumors have been disproven (except actual crazy conspiracy that even after the announcement she is missing, which isn't in the article at all), and the badness of the speculation and conspiracy theories is part of the story in the article. The spirit of anti-news policy is to avoid trivial stuff, reporting on every event that gets in the news, without anything to say except what was reported in the news. But this was a truly extraordinary and drawn-out event, and commentary from a variety of sources, news and commentary, can be summarized. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 16:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Per previous comments, in my reading, media crazes about an event in a living person's life, which can be adequately summarised for an encyclopedia reader's interests in the living person's article, are precluded by the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP, particularly WP:BLPGOSSIP. Focusing only on WP:NOTGOSSIP:

news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary. Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, matches played, or goals scored warrants inclusion in the biography of that person, only those for which they have notability or for which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest

Here, the policy has in mind providing goal-by-goal summaries of a footballer's career included in their biography, let alone, say, Lionel Messi at the 2022 FIFA World Cup. Analogously, Where is Kate? effectively provides a media-mention-by-media-mention summary of her early 2024 and the associated commentary, separate from the princess' biography. What I haven't worked out is how Squidgygate might fit into this. Then we have WP:BLPGOSSIP:

Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.

I appreciate that we don't have speculation that's in danger of being spread. The question here, for me, is not that there is gossip: as I said also in the first AfD, the coverage of the gossip is extensive and non-tabloid. Rather, the question is what is the subject. For a BLP policy page, it seems reasonable to interpret the subject as Catherine, Princess of Wales, not early 2024 speculation about the health and public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales. That is to say, although readers are reasonably likely to have an interest in the media craze, any such article is not disinterested, and if it can be adequately summarised (avoiding goal-by-goal summaries) in the main biography, it should be. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 16:48, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I don't think it's fair that this is "media mention by media mention." The article has a narrative, and the events from various news articles are linked in a cohesive way. On GOSSIP, I think the subject is an episode including the unexplained disappearance, surgery, media frenzy, photo, and the announcement, and those are linked in a cohesive way. I think that subject has enduring notability as explained above. The fact that a media frenzy is involved (see this list of such things) doesn't take that notability away. -- Jfhutson ( talk) 18:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Maybe it would also be prudent to edit out what some of the conspiracy theories were and also impact on the Monarchy as an institution considering this not a scandal as compared to the tribulations of individual members over the years and if the public response to her cancer diagnosis is anything to go by the assertion that it somehow damaged the monarchy as brand is void. Ella Nya ( talk) 13:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep per above arguments. RadioactiveBoulevardier ( talk) 01:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep per above arguments (generally Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT) ( 3OpenEyes's talk page. Say hi!) | (PS: Have a good day) 14:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ Relph, Daniela (29 February 2024). "Analysis: A royal dilemma as public curiosity over Kate's health grows". BBC News. Archived from the original on 9 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  2. ^ Hockaday, James; Wells, Andy; Manning, Ellen (14 March 2024). "The Princess of Wales's ongoing absence from public life, explained". Yahoo News. Archived from the original on 14 March 2024. Retrieved 14 March 2024.
  3. ^ Abad-Santos, Alex (15 March 2024). "3 reasons why Kate Middleton's royal scandal got so out of control". Vox. Archived from the original on 15 March 2024. Retrieved 15 March 2024.
  4. ^ Dickson, E.J. (14 March 2024). "'Missing' Kate Middleton Memes Highlight The Monarchy's Uselessness". Rolling Stone. Archived from the original on 14 March 2024. Retrieved 14 March 2024.
  • Delete per Firefly and Bon courage. Draken Bowser ( talk) 07:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC) Addendum: as several users have correctly pointed out, the topic of this article would, when written in actual summary style, total at most a few sentences. There is more than enough room for it in Kate's BLP, where it belongs. reply
  • Strong keep. A major news event about one of the most notable people in the UK which generated extensive, sustained, national and international media coverage. It doesn't get any more notable. Though the title is suboptimal. Stifle ( talk) 07:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. My initial reaction was to delete based largely on WP:NOTNEWS and BLP concerns. But there's a strong meta-story about the way the tabloid press, compounded by social media, can and do blow things out of all proportion. "Where is Kate?" isn't the right title for this, but there's a move discussion in progress where we can discuss that aspect. Rosbif73 ( talk) 08:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: Like Brexit, Han shot first and The Day the Music Died. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    WP:OTHERSTUFF? And not comparable in any case. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 08:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    "Where is Kate?" wasn't the biggest postwar challenge for any British government didn't paralyse the politics of a country for 31/2 years. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 09:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I have no idea what the relevance of those are, but none are WP:BLPs. Black Kite (talk) 09:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Delete Its gossip and meme. Pharaoh496 ( talk) 10:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Given the high participation in this AfD, on Liz's suggestion, I have requested at WP:AN for three uninvolved administrators to form a panel to close this AfD once its seven days are expired. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 10:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Just because something 'passes' GNG doesn't mean it must have an article, Wikipedia isn't a gossip magazine. If this isn't covered by the exact wording of current policy this discussion should be used as a basis for rewording policy so it does. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 11:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Indeed. And it is covered by policy, per WP:N. See my comment above. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 11:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep. What makes me change my stance from weak keep to strong keep is the egregious misconception of many delete votes about this article’s nature, much of which PK-WIKI and PantheonRadiance have put very clear. Also shout out to IgnatiusofLondon for his core role in this precious public debate. Still I regretfully have to begin my own analysis with some ambivalences in his past statements:
First, BLP and especially NOTGOSSIP concerns. As provided in the deletion rationale, Ignatius finds it a great fault to violate the “spirit” of NOTGOSSIP and BLPGOSSIP, while acknowledging the outcome of the first AfD. Yet, it seems no one ever cares about what that “spirit” means. Then, to avoid a repetition of the first AfD, we must give it an explanation: either we follow the original wording of the cited BLPGOSSIP guidance and establish from now on a bright-line rule against any gossip (which I will address in the last paragraph), or we break the “spirit” down into exact interests in hope of finding something not discussed before.
As much work has been provided by PK and Pantheon, I'll just make some supplements. Referring to precedents may offer some help here. In the last DRV I’ve raised examples of Birtherism and Clinton body count conspiracy theory, and I regretfully find no reply: why the conspiracies around the Clintons and Obama, also potentially violating BLP, survived AfDs? Is it because these figures are “more political” and thus should tolerate more criticism? Is it because this article is around Kate’s health, which bears more importance than birthplace or criminal records? I fail to see huge differences here. Even though Kate's interest is a bit greater than Obama's, the global reaction to this story persuasively overweigh it: the opportunistic MP Galloway grasped on it, and even accusations against Russian spies emerge (per DeCausa in the last DRV).We don’t need a critical theory professor to deliver a tedious essay on body and politics; evidence is obvious. Also, while there is indeed concern about Kate’s privacy or the Monarchy’s renown, it should be noted that here, even the most controversial title "Where is Kate" shows no malice against the public figures; the most materials in the article, if drafted decently, shows only concerns about the masses’ active engagement in a royal scandal (though in a wrong way).
Second, Proportionality. Per WP:ATD we should first check whether we can save the article by editing. For example, many find the title “Where is Kate” obnoxious, yet that doesn’t constitute a reason for the whole article’s deletion. Some may suggest merge, i.e. a few sentences in Catherine’s article, or in the list of conspiracy theories are enough. But that seems to me still a second-best choice, because above we have found many points of interest that may be ignored when merging. How can we address the mass media or monarchy mishandling issues in an article that focus on Kate’s own biography? Even we manage it, who can guarantee that it may survive a possible future response to WP:TOOLONG? Not tolerating any remediable problem is just WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
Third, WP:COATRACK concern. Many COATRACK advocates seem to ignore that it is to date only an essay, not a policy. Why so? I believe it is because of risks of its misuse in an edit war. From my perspective, many Delete voters simply presuppose that this article should be a superfluous collection of unsubstantiated news about Kate’s health, and refuse to believe that it may ever become a genuine article about a mass media movement. I admit that there may be disagreements on the exact purpose of an article; contradictory ideas may even be observed on one single editor. Ignatius as example here: when he recognize the focus is the “media frenzy” but not only Kate herself, in a March 23 response to TheSpacebook he finds it good to remove the notion that “since the death of Queen Elizabeth II, support for the monarchy reached a record low” for not relevant, while this, from my perspective, has nothing to do with BLP and exactly explains why some were so furious during the frenzy. Still, if one doubts that an article has developed in the wrong way, what they should first do is TRY TO EDIT IT, per proportionality stated above.
Finally, I have to utter some of my original research here. Some may still question about my stringent adherence above to freedom-of-speech rationale. Can’t the WP just choose a bright-line rule to be more accurate, reliable, official, while inevitably missing some valuable grassroot gossips? My answer is No. We live in an era of falsity: speech freedom and credibility encroach on each other, authorities and celebrities still pretend omniscience by cracking down on ever increasing dissents. In the “Orient” the GFW (I sincerely hope everyone may read the Chinese version of this, during which many dissents came from nowhere and were easily dismissed by the authorities as conspiracies), in the “West” maybe a DMCA takedown notice or a defamation suit. In history, Wikipedia has been the ally of Lawrence Lessig whose utopic fantasy about Internet still impresses us today. I’m not refuting policies like WP:DATABASE, but by de facto collaboration with the Internet Archive (which is now also in jeopardy following the suit by Penguin) WP is indeed a quasi-pirate that helps to find sources which, even if accessible in a legal sense, may be hard to locate under the search engine-designed hierarchy, and the donation from the mass guarantees that WP still ranks top on the google page. That means, WP is a unique exception that may exercise its potential to RECORD memories for the mass, that, even though not deleted, can easily be flooded over. With a bright-line rule that potential is denied. We have had a long history behind us against the tragedy of “wish[ing] to obtain from electronic databases material that is not there” (Breyer J., dissenting, Eldred v. Ashcroft). In such a time of falsity we have to rely on our own trust in a real “marketplace of ideas”(Holmes, J.) and never be complicit: not only are we waiting for a Robert Darnton to tell our offspring how a transformation starts with an unnoticed cat massacre, but also we do this for our own sake. Jason211pacem ( talk) 13:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Thanks, Jason211pacem, for your kind words. Just a few comments:
  • no one ever cares about what that "spirit" means → Yes, it seems like the spirit argument hasn't had much uptake in the rest of the AfD, at least not explicitly. I appreciate it is handwaving, much like I find the WP:BLP arguments handwaving, but that is because the letter of the policies doesn't, in my view, preclude the article, and so this is a question of editorial judgment about Wikipedia's scope that isn't well-encapsulated by existing policies and guidelines. We are dealing with an edge case, and in ActivelyDisinterested's words: If this isn't covered by the exact wording of current policy this discussion should be used as a basis for rewording policy so it does. So the fiasco has prompted me to propose an expansion to BLPGOSSIP, with no expectation or intent that BLPGOSSIP be modified to affect the outcome of this AfD while it is still running.
  • why the conspiracies around the Clintons and Obama, also potentially violating BLP, survived AfDs? → I don't have a clear-cut answer to this, but these articles discuss longstanding conspiracy theories, rather than media crazes. The actual conspiracy theories (e.g. that Catherine had a bad hair do) were a comparatively small part of this news story, which really resembles more of an event and speculation than conspiracy theories.
  • How can we address the mass media or monarchy mishandling issues in an article that focus on Kate’s own biography? → We don't, because this has nothing to do with the princess, which is one of the recurring comments about Where is Kate?. We address these issues on their respective topic pages, e.g. Republicanism in the United Kingdom. Per my previous comments, which I don't want to repeat at risk of bludgeoning, I think this can be done without requiring a standalone article like Where is Kate?, and the relevance of the speculation/controversy/photograph/whatever can be afforded different treatment on different topic pages, without requiring readers to understand all the coatrack to understand its significance to a particular topic.
  • in a March 23 response to TheSpacebook [Ignatius] finds it good to remove the notion that “since the death of Queen Elizabeth II → The source used to justify this statement preceded Catherine's hospitalisation, and was being used to contextualise commentary on the speculation/support for the monarchy. It might have been helpful context, but I thought this use of a source was poor editorialisation: the article required a better source to sustain the statement, clearly linking (low) support for the monarchy to the speculation/controversy. Until such source was presented, I removed the sentence.
IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 14:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I share the same idea with ActivelyDisinterested that the policy needs amendment. But I cannot agree with such a possible interpretation of their statement that "gossip", a hollow pejorative adjective, adequately serves as a proxy for deletion. That's what I called a dangerous bright-line rule.
In terms of your suggestion of "different topic pages" treatment, I think it correctly distinguishes two kinds of value at issue when deleting an article that contains more than one single event (needless to say most articles fall into this category): the value of each event that may inevitably be lost during the deletion, and the "compilation value", which I think should have been better addressed by WP:PAGEDECIDE.
Admittedly the lifespan of a conspiracy theory is an important factor, but a story may still gain independent value for a standalone page when other factors are taken into account; then breaking it down into pieces of info in different pages may substantially burden the reader who needs a holistic knowledge of the whole event. I've been reminded of a case of reference value on the Chinese WP which I'll later sort out and (if you don't mind) put on your talk page (to prevent this AfD page from being too verbose). Jason211pacem ( talk) 10:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete the keep arguments are particularly poor. Under Wikipedia policy just because something is in newspapers or on the news does not mean we have to have an article. The keep arguments also seem to plead ignorance of, or not care, that "Kate" is a living person. (BLP) The entire premise of this article is a crime (missing person), or conspiracy theory, or gossip about a living person, with the real undercurrent that the living person is either a poor liar (of omission and/or commission) or a fool of others. But no, the keep then tries to claim it's not about Kate, what the keep actually means it wants to do is put Kate in the corner and turn her into a COATRACK for other things. No, Kate's not your coatrack either, she is still a living person, and to the extent it is about other things, the only responsible way to discuss is in the context of other subjects, not this article. -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 14:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Missing person is not a crime. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
That's your quibble? How unserious, missing person is regularly the start and implication of criminal mystery. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 15:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
These are the same people who think Paul McCartney died decades ago and was replaced. That's what this article is, right up there with Balloon boy. Chris Troutman ( talk) 15:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think almost everything you wrote is wrong, but I decided to ignore the incivility/hyperbole and address the first concrete point you raised. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
She was never a ''missing'' person. Killuminator ( talk) 16:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
This is also true. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Indeed, there is no decent point in having this 'where' article. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 16:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Suggestion copy and paste article into draft space and strip all mention of Catherine, and we title it something like 'Where is Olivia?'; and have it as an example essay of what not to do when something bursts in coverage for 1 week and then drops in notability like a lead balloon after. TheSpacebook ( talk) 15:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Except there has been sustained coverage of various elements of this story for over two months already (the surgery in mid-January, the Mothers Day picture in early March, her announcement of cancer in late March), so clearly not a "burst" as you suggest. Frank Anchor 16:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The article exists because a bunch of bored online people selected her to be meme of the month in March. All of this is worthy of a few sentences on the main article, not a full article. Killuminator ( talk) 17:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think the original comment was referring to the 10 March stuff, which was the blow-up, and around the creation of this article. She was on medical leave till Easter, so update by Easter was almost certain (and probably always the plan). Alanscottwalker ( talk) 17:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete because we know where she is (or change the title or something). Selfstudier ( talk) 18:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Wouldn't that just be a move? Why say delete, when just because an event is over doesn't mean an article shouldn't exist. Industrial Insect (talk) 19:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:BLPGOSSIP. Bzweebl ( talk • contribs) 18:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and move the article doesn't seem to be a violation of Wikipedia:BLPGOSSIP. As said by other editors the article not only continued to receive coverage, but also represents the loss of trust in a news source, and it doesn't seem to cause any harm to the subject (the conspiracy theories are called as such).
    Industrial Insect (talk) 19:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep however I support a renaming - the amount of speculation merits an article, albeit one shorter than the current article. LegalSmeagolian ( talk) 22:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, a media event of no lasting impact, not even about the person, but about the fuss and media attention grabbing. - Altenmann >talk 23:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: In this instance WP:BLPPUBLIC outweighs WP:BLPGOSSIP.  Bait30   Talk 2 me pls? 01:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    • BLPGOSSIP is never outweighed by BLPPUBLIC. There are other factors related to BLPPUBLIC that would come into play, such as related to BLPVICTIM, but BLPGOSSIP is a top level restriction no matter how famous a person is. —  Masem ( t) 04:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
      • There is nothing in BLPGOSSIP to suggest that it is top level restriction. However, BLPPUBLIC is clear that If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article. Kate's public absence and received substantial and sustained coverage from many leading media outlets. Frank Anchor 16:22, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • keep and rename I don't like the title, but oddly this has become an important thing. In many ways it is about the nature of modern media. When first created, I think it was gossip at best. Now it's more. Further, as someone who really tries not to follow the English Royals (I honestly don't know the name of the person she's married to, though I could probably guess) I'm aware of this stuff against my will. It's not gossip at this point. The name of the article, however, is poor. Also mildly annoyed at the number of AfDs in such a short time. I get why (things are changing rapidly) but I still don't like it much. Hobit ( talk) 03:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: per the arguments put forth by Rwendland, Horse Eye's Back, and PK-WIKI. RudolfRed ( talk) 04:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:NOTGOSSIP and most importantly BLP. This topic does not deserve the breathless blow by blow it has received in this article and only warrants a few sentences at best in the main article. Pinguinn  🐧 07:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: Saying that an article should be deleted because the topic violates the spirit of a policy has the same weight as WP:IDONTLIKEIT, in other words none at all. As the proposer themselves stated above, the fact that the vast media and internet speculation has received significant coverage in RS thus passing the general notability guideline is not in contention. Multiple RS have already covered and commented on the implication and impact of this entire fiasco and this topic will be discussed in studies of western media and celebrity culture for years to come. -- StellarHalo ( talk) 10:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The !vote directly above this one cites an actual policy, not just the spirit, under which the article is excluded per WP:N. I can understand you might not read the whole thread, but when trying to encapsulate the delete arguments, you might engage with some of them. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 10:22, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    There is nothing in the text of NOTGOSSIP or BLP being cited there, its just a vague hand wave to the policy... Note that nobody who has dug into the actual policy and guideline has been able to make an argument for deletion on those grounds stick, hence the appeal to their spirit not their letter. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    As elsewhere, the words on the page should not require explanation if read carefully. Writing WP:NOTGOSSIP is clearly shorthand for pasting the text:

    Celebrity gossip and diary. Even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are. For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary. Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, matches played, or goals scored warrants inclusion in the biography of that person, only those for which they have notability or for which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest.

    Now examine the text of the page in question. First the title: "Where is Kate?" Obviously a gossip column title. It certainly isn't encyclopaedic. What about the content of the article? Well now it says things like Her public absence received extensive international media coverage, which largely asked "Where is Kate?" in past tense. That, of course is a response to the shifting news and the rapid rewriting in response to new news, and indicates the article also fails on WP:NOTNEWS, but just concentrating on NOTGOSSIP, look at that warning about overly detailed articles that look like a diary and then look at this article, which has, for instance, 21 references to events happening on dates in March alone. So just for March we have on 4 March, on 5 March, and so on, also for 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 22nd, 31st plus a 15th-17th March. Other months are also available. So this is very diary like. It is a blow by blow account based on primary sources, not a summary of a topic based on secondary sources. We are told what days she went shopping, for instance, and goodness me, the shutter speed and aperture of the camera taking a photo. Overly detailed? Yep. A lot of trivia? Yep.
    There is something notable and encyclopaedic here, but it is nothing to do with the question "Where is Kate?" No one wants to censor coverage of her cancer diagnosis, nor of the behaviour of British media, nor of anything else that is actually notable here. But that is not what this article is about. That information belongs in her biography, and if a spinout were necessary, this is not the spinout that would be called for. This article is about the gossip, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you. I expect you won't agree, because you have made 33 comments so far in this AfD and it is clear where you sit on the issue, but no - no one who has cited NOTGOSSIP or NOTNEWS or any of the other NOT policies is making "just a vague hand wave to the policy." If the policy does not apply here, it doesn't apply anywhere, and that is a settled and considered view of this editor, and I expect of every other one who has cited that policy. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 18:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    On the contrary, when I wrote "per NOTGOSSIP and BLP" it meant I was directly citing those policies and therefore the texts of those policies were meant to speak for themselves. By reading the text of NOTGOSSIP it should not take a great leap of faith to understand why someone might oppose per that policy. Sirfurboy has very effectively described the reasoning for citing NOTGOSSIP, but surely not every !vote has to go into that much detail to be valid. Pinguinn  🐧 08:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete It's hard to understand how this article came to be accepted. This is the epitome of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Deb ( talk) 14:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete For all the reasons stated above, but particularly WP:RECENT – the subject matter has already lost relevance for any more than a one sentence mention in the main article on the Princess of Wales. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 15:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ ThoughtIdRetired: But particularly WP:RECENT? WP:RECENT says "Above all else, editors should avoid getting into edit wars or contentious deletion discussions when trying to deal with recentism." so how are you making a contentious deletion argument based on WP:RECENT? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
How do we differentiate between a "contentious deletion discussion" and a "deletion discussion". There is already a 70% opinion in favour of deletion. Does the existence of the 30% make this contentious (I really don't know)? All I did was look at the current news coverage, both generally and in a quality newspaper. The general view gave me the impression that the "news" consisted of a celebrity backtracking on/apologising for their speculation and other news outlets looking retrospectively at the matter. The quality newspaper had nothing in the past week. To me that is a pretty rapid disappearance of the story. This is, of course, in addition to all the other deletion reasons. And I have not even got into the suggestion that the whole story was fuelled by Russian troll factories (see [24]) – surely Wikipedia is not on the side of the trolls? All I have done is given my opinion. You might question it, but you have not changed it. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 17:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Contentious in this context means not unanimous. Discussion are not votes, you appear to be counting votes? This particular discussion is extremely contentious, as far as I can tell its actually the most contentious serious of deletion discussion we've had on wiki this year (note that the first closed as keep very recently). I don't understand how more coverage (the troll factories stories) makes it less notable not more notable, how does that work? I'm not asking for your opinion to change, I'm questioning your interpretation of policy and guideline (which should be separate from your personal feelings about the topic). Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 17:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
(1) Interpretation of "contentious". As with so much of the guidance in Wikipedia, the term is not defined. I don't see anything that suggests the meaning "not unanimous". (2) you appear to be counting votes. I carefully used the word "opinions" instead of "votes". Nevertheless, relative numbers are something that go into the final decision-making mix. (3) The troll factories are something that makes it less notable for a serious encyclopaedia – because the whole subject has been artificially inflated above its true news value. (4) I should have made clear that I was talking about my opinions on how Wikipedia is meant to operate. Those start with the first of the WP:5P, especially the bit about not being a newspaper. In my thinking, that particularly expands into not being a tabloid newspaper. The advice on recentism includes "just wait and see". Since Wikipedia is not a newspaper, that advice would have been well followed if it had delayed the creation of the article until the dust had settled. Then decisions on whether there was sufficient notability for a separate article would have been much easier. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 19:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
There is no good faith way to argue that this is isn't a contentious discussion. That troll factories became involved makes it more notable for a serious encyclopedia, not less. That would appear to be misrepresenting the advice on recentism, wait and see would mean keep not delete and we are supposed to create articles for current events when they first meet the notability not wait... Per WP:NOTNEWS "Editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage, and to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events." Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Nothing except the photoshop controversy and cancer announcement even meets the definition of news. Aaron Liu ( talk) 22:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
What definition of news? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 06:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Despite an impressively energetic counter-argument, my opinion on whether this subject matter should have an article of its own remains unchanged – it should not. If one of the five pillars of Wikipedia says that this is not a newspaper, then that over-rules any guidance written by individual editors. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 08:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia is not a newspaper... As in we don't publish original reporting. Not that we don't cover what real newspapers cover. I get that you disagree, but you can't manipulate things which don't agree with you into agreeing with you because you disagree... At this point the only thing you can point to is WP:IAR, which is a valid argument but nobody has made it. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Horse Eye's Back, even though it's a fun idea use your entire month's allocation of argument in just the first few days of April, I would recommend you disengage. You've now made over 40 edits and it could be construed as bludgeoning the discussion. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 17:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
It's only bludgeoning if they keep repeating the same arguments. Aaron Liu ( talk) 17:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
On the other side, I should probably also be disengaging(!), but just to say, for what it's worth, that it's a fine line between bludgeoning and ensuring a productive discussion that helps solidify consensus. I think @ Horse Eye's Back's contributions have been restrained (many replies within !vote-threads rather than replies across many !vote-threads), and I've found their contributions helpful and interesting in clarifying my own thoughts. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 17:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I didn't think I was bludgeoning because the discussion here as been so broad, if I felt I was just repeating myself to no end I wouldn't do it but people keep making new and inventive arguments (which is a boon to wikipedia, policies and guidelines unchallenged get stale). Out of an abundance of caution and respect for you I will take a step back. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 17:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Thanks to Aaron, Ignatius, and HEB for the quick replies - I agree that everyone's comments have been made in good faith and there's definitely a difference between bludgeoning and good discussion. Hopefully the arguments will be helpful to the closer in assessing consensus; just important that they don't become redundant or cause people to shy away from participating. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 17:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Original reporting is only 1 of the 4 points at notnews. Aaron Liu ( talk) 17:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The article is not a news report, the article is not a who's who entry, the article is does not a purveyor of gossip or written as a celebrity diary... We've covered all of these above, none off the words written on that page as not allowed actually cover what is on this page, hence the invocation of the spirit not the letter. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 17:17, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
The article, other than the photoshop controversy and cancer announcement (and tiny bit of analysis on media frenzy), is literally gossip on why people haven't been seeing her and every trivial detail on where she went. Aaron Liu ( talk) 19:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Something that actually happens. It's all just "analysis". Aaron Liu ( talk) 12:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Analysis can be either news or opinion, what we use here appears to be news... I would also note that gossip is "Something that actually happens" so reporting on gossip is news even thats the way you want to take this. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 16:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Analysis is not news. Analysis of news is still not news. Analysis on "omg nobody has seen her so she's sick" is only gossip and also not news. "She hasn't been seen in a year" is only borderline news and does not deserve an article since it's not an actual disappearance. Aaron Liu ( talk) 17:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Analsysis is very much news and very much what we're supposed to be including... Per WP:RS: "This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors" Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 17:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Analysis is simply not news, which is an objective thing that happens. Reporting that people are spreading conspiracy theories is different from spreading conspiracy theories. The former is news while the latter isn't. Yellow journalists also are not reliable authors. Aaron Liu ( talk) 19:46, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep There are multiple media-covered narratives with established multidisciplinary relevance here. This meets WP:GNG and surpasses criticism of guides for WP:TABLOID and WP:RECENT topics. The strongest argument for keeping this is the diversity of coverage. This story was not only tabloid celebrity coverage, but also in the context of general contemporary social issues including medical privacy, AI image alteration, propaganda of multiple countries, and public right to know of the status of public figures. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Weak delete: first of all, this topic falls within Wikipedia's scope and is covered at Catherine, Princess of Wales#Health and #Photograph controversy. The encyclopedic aspects lie in the proliferation of conspiracy theories (and sources exist to debunk this) and the Royal Family's use of disinformation (manipulated photograph).
    A significant challenge is that the UK mainstream media are unreliable on many aspects of the modern Royal Family due to close collaboration with Westminster Palace: they report rumour as fact, misattribute information that has come from royal PR teams, and construct mutually beneficially fictional narratives. International news sources do exist on this topic, but they are limited in their dependence on UK media and recency.
    Ultimately, I do believe this will be a significant topic in 10 years' time, but that we need sources not yet created to establish notability. I hope to soon read peer-reviewed scholarship analysing British media coverage of this event, social media reaction, effect on the public image of the Royal family and wider context as to the Royal Family's creation of propaganda. Without this, we cannot write a standalone encyclopedia article. — Bilorv ( talk) 16:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and move, third attempt at a deletion is getting desperate. A move or even redirect would be appropriate, considering how popular the article has become and how it is fully justified through links and references, and how the topic has become a media sensation in the Western World, the new article naming of public absence is adequate and makes sense to keep for people wanting to follow the story. Cltjames ( talk) 18:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The only sensational part was the photoshop and cancer announcement, which don't seem notable enough to have their own article at this point. Like Bilorv said, if lots of analyses come in the future then these parts can have their own article. There is a ton of gossip around celebrities, and the speculation of why Catherine was missing is on par with gossip. Aaron Liu ( talk) 19:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The second attempt was closed on purely procedural grounds and the deletion review was closed as no consensus because too many people wanted many different things. It was just chaos due to multiple overlapping circumstances, not a rock solid ''keep'. Killuminator ( talk) 22:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and not rename. Subject to the comments provided, the article should be kept. We should avoid subjective judgments of notability. Additionally, notability is not temporary ( WP:NTEMP), and media coverage surrounding the subject remains significant (and reliable!), encompassing various perspectives and responses. Therefore, the article's relevance persists. The argument of WP:NOTGOSSIP does not hold up. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, and that is precisely what the article predominantly (if not entirely) relies on. The same applies to articles like Paul is dead, as mentioned by other users. RodRabelo7 ( talk) 01:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, per WP:NOT: fancruft and trivia. The material is covered in the main article, Catherine, Princess of Wales#Photograph controversy, and this is sufficient. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 12:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Firefly. Happy days, ~ Lindsay H ello 13:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Masem. Daniel Quinlan ( talk) 16:29, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This is tabloid gossip and speculation, and fails the ten-year test. Any actual encyclopedic information can be merged into the main article. – bradv 18:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Unencyclopedic, gossip and speculation. Agree with above that if there’s any RS cited content, it can be carefully merged into the main article following the guidelines of living persons for biographical articles. Kierzek ( talk) 21:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Notable, if unpleasant to some. Dreameditsbrooklyn ( talk) 00:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I don't care whether it's unpleasant. We have page on many, many unpleasant subjects. The reason I think it should be deleted is that it doesn't build good encyclopedic coverage of the underlying topic. I agree with Bilorv that in ten years' time we may end up with an encyclopedic article on this subject. But at the moment, the secondary sources don't exist to make a page that isn't just regurgitating media fluff about what turned out to be the poorly-managed prelude to the announcement of the Princess' illness. It's a WP:POVFORK where the point of view being privileged is that of conspiracy theorists and tabloid editors. GenevieveDEon ( talk) 07:48, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete the doctor prescribes WP:NOT with extra doses of WP:UCS. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 02:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and rename My position hasn't changed after three AfDs and an RM. Yes, the coverage was ridiculous. But it was notable, it sustained for weeks, and it generated a conversation that was covered by a plethora of reliable sources that extend far beyond the tabloids. That means it satisfies our notability requirements. That this coverage is even more reprehensible with hindsight is irrelevant. LM2000 ( talk) 12:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, but keep the information Does Kate have an article focused on her media appearances, or any controversies? Or is there even one about royal controversies in general? Most, or all, of the info contained in this current article could be moved somewhere else and linked to from the main article.

Hol-Tangings ( talk) 18:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Kensington Palace announced on 17 January 2024 that Catherine had undergone a planned abdominal surgery for an undisclosed medical condition that was not cancer, after she had been admitted to The London Clinic the previous day. [1] [2] She postponed all of her public engagements and duties until after Easter that year. [3] The subsequent speculation about Catherine's absence and health prompted various conspiracy theories and attracted extensive media attention. [4] [5] Catherine announced on 22 March, through a video message filmed by BBC Studios, that post-operative tests had found cancer, and the palace said she had been undergoing chemotherapy since late February. [6] [7]

In early March 2024, the Associated Press, AFP, Reuters and Getty Images withdrew from publishing a Mother's Day photograph of Catherine and her children, that was attributed to her husband and accompanied by a personal message from her. [8] The Associated Press later explained that they issued a "kill order" because of concerns regarding digital alteration of the image at its source. [9] AFP and Reuters raised similar concerns. [10] [11] The following day, in a message posted by Kensington Palace, Catherine apologised for any confusion created and said she had personally edited the family photograph that was shared publicly. [12] [13] The incident occurred after Catherine had begun chemotherapy treatment for cancer. [14][ 13:46, 4 April 2024 ]

Sources

  1. ^ Rhoden-Paul, Andre; Coughlan, Sean (17 January 2024). "Catherine, Princess of Wales, in hospital after abdominal surgery". BBC News. Archived from the original on 17 January 2024. Retrieved 17 January 2024.
  2. ^ Kindelan, Katie (23 March 2024). "Kate Middleton: A timeline of her cancer diagnosis, surgery and absence from public duties". Good Morning America. Archived from the original on 22 March 2024. Retrieved 23 March 2024.
  3. ^ Coughlan, Sean (29 January 2024). "King Charles leaves hospital as Kate recovers at home". BBC News. Archived from the original on 29 January 2024. Retrieved 30 January 2024.
  4. ^ Relph, Daniela (29 February 2024). "Analysis: A royal dilemma as public curiosity over Kate's health grows". BBC News. Archived from the original on 9 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  5. ^ Mercedes Lara, Maria (14 March 2024). "Kate Middleton's Surgery Recovery and Photo Controversy: Everything to Know". People. Archived from the original on 14 March 2024. Retrieved 14 March 2024.
  6. ^ Coughlin, Sean (22 March 2024). "Princess of Wales says she is undergoing cancer treatment". BBC News. Archived from the original on 22 March 2024. Retrieved 22 March 2024.
  7. ^ Foster, Max; Said-Moorhouse, Lauren (22 March 2024). "Catherine, Princess of Wales, announces she has cancer". CNN. Archived from the original on 23 March 2024. Retrieved 22 March 2024.
  8. ^ "Picture agencies pull Kate photo amid 'manipulation' concerns". Sky News. 10 March 2024. Archived from the original on 10 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  9. ^ Phillipp, Charlotte (10 March 2024). "Kate Middleton's 2024 Mother's Day Photo 'Killed' After Associated Press Alleges the Image Was 'Manipulated'". People. Archived from the original on 11 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  10. ^ McCluskey, Mitchell (10 March 2024). "News agencies recall image of Catherine, Princess of Wales, citing manipulation concerns". CNN. Archived from the original on 11 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  11. ^ Mackintosh, Thomas (10 March 2024). "Princess of Wales: Kate image withdrawn by five news agencies amid 'manipulation' concerns". BBC News. Archived from the original on 12 March 2024. Retrieved 21 March 2024.
  12. ^ "Kate admits editing Mother's Day photo". BBC News. 11 March 2024. Archived from the original on 11 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  13. ^ Perry (11 March 2024). "Kate Middleton Apologizes for 'Confusion' Over Family Photograph That Caused Controversy". People. Archived from the original on 11 March 2024. Retrieved 11 March 2024.
  14. ^ Coughlan, Sean (22 March 2024). "Kate cancer diagnosis rewrites story of past weeks". BBC News. Archived from the original on 24 March 2024. Retrieved 25 March 2024.

For those who are voting keep, or to keep the information within her biographic article, what else needs to be kept? What is the proposed scope of "Where is Kate?" that goes beyond those paragraphs? Rjjiii ( talk) 18:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC) Added permanent link with time for attribution. Rjjiii ( talk) 04:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The coverage within the article has increased considerably since the start of the afd, and now I think that nothing other than what I mention at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales#Simplicity and concision needs to be added. Aaron Liu ( talk) 01:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect/Merge with Princess Kate’s article. Clearly a notable topic but when content possibly in violation of BLPGOSSIP is removed, it can easily be covered in the parent article. One of the best features of a redirect is that the history is preserved, so if this story evolves and has lasting coverage several months or years from now, it can be restored as a standalone article. Carson Wentz ( talk) 23:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This is a huge violation of WP:BLPGOSSIP. Besides maybe a paragraph on her article, this doesn't belong on here, especially not at this title. LilianaUwU ( talk / contributions) 23:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    With that said, if the article was at literally any other title, I'd be more fine with it. I think the article title itself is what rubs me the wrong way, not necessarily the content (though I don't get why this is an article in the first place). LilianaUwU ( talk / contributions) 02:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Observation I closed the 2nd AFD so I won't be closing this one as I consider my participation involved. But reading this discussion over, it seems like some of the Delete votes, those who provide no policy basis for their opinion, seem like they are editors who are embarrassed at the existence of this article on Wikipedia, rather than due to a careful read of the article and analysis of its sources. It doesn't read like gossip, in fact, it discusses gossip as it pertains to this event but, in itself, it is not gossip. I think that claim also is a disservice to editors who contributed to the article who I think took pains to maintain an integrity and write about the subject with a NPOV. I am not arguing Keep or Delete as I think it would interfere with my work here as a closer, I'm just asking that those editors arguing for Deletion actually judge the merits of the article and not dismiss it because they find the subject distasteful and not in keeping with an online encyclopedia. Whether this article is Kept, Deleted, Redirected, Merged or Renamed, thanks to those participating editors here who kept their focus on policy-related aspects of this article. Liz Read! Talk! 02:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment On the other hand, BLPGOSSIP and NOTNEWS are certainly relevant here. The problem I am having with the Keep votes here (apart from the WP:ITSNOTABLE ones, which a closer should discount anyway), is that they are arguing the point of why we could keep this article, rather than focusing on the main point, which is whether we should. Black Kite (talk) 10:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Observation. I agree with Liz on all points. I closed the first AFD, and I too recuse. But it does seem to me that there is still room in this discussion for thoughtful consideration (and there certainly has been some already) of how this article does or does not fit into the scope of what Wikipedia's policies mean. We have chosen to base much of what we do on reliable sources, yet we retain our own role as editors shaping their material. The intersection IMO never has been cleanly defined, and grappling with that area might help the community resolve how it wishes to deal with information the reliable sources have provided. More broadly, it is gratifying to see this level of participation at Afd. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 03:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I agree with Liz. Wikipedia is Not censored. If it was it would harm the purpose of the encyclopedia, and the efforts of editors who put hundreds of hours into this site. Swordman97 talk to me 05:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Actually, NOTCENSORED is not a bright line. It clearly says in the second paragraph that it does not apply to material that is problematic as regards WP:BLP. Black Kite (talk) 11:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Liz is just plain wrong. Editors have naturally a "distaste" for poor editorial decisions, like having this article. They have a editorial objection to gossip mongering in any guise. They have an editorial objection to treatment of a BLP. They have an editorial disapproval of manufactured claims of long-term meaning with no backing of independent sources in serious study, and the elevation of things out of context, etc. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 18:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Irrespective of the AFDs or even BLPGOSSIP issues, the way this article is constructed represents a growing problem with how we approach topics on current events against the spirit of NOTNEWS. We're supposed to summarize news sources, and instead, this article maintained running coverage of the news (at least, related to her absence) without clearly establishing that this was going to have enduring significance. As a counter example, we have similarly constructed articles related to the Gaza conflict or the Ukraine conflict, but both of those have firmly established their long-term importance. The issue in this one is where the media opt to focus on something that they consider important but that is not related to longevity aspects. It was poorly approached at the start from this angle, and then you couple the issues of BLP/GOSSIP atop it and it makes it that much worse. Masem ( t) 18:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: per WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:NOTNEWS. This is unencyclopaedic gutter dribble. TarnishedPath talk 04:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete as WP:LASTING fail: This is fundamentally a media topic, and the sources for a quality article on this topic really should be peer-reviewed, but do not yet exist. Bilorv is right about that. Non-appearances are not events. A public figure visiting a store is not notable. The shutter speed of a camera is especially not notable, unless the episode is an example in an article about photo manipulation, where it could only be one of several if not many. Similarly, there is meat here for an article about the bread-and-circuses aspects of British monarchy, and/or its relationship to the press, but there too it would only be a single example, where surely Prince Harry and Princess Diana would be better-known instances. Some of the keep votes appear to believe that distaste motivates the delete votes. Possibly some, but not this one. Kate Middleton voluntarily became a public figure, and as insane as I find the fascination of a certain demographic with the royal family, I am possibly not as concerned with the BLP aspects of this as I should be. I speak for myself here. But speaking for policy, pray tell what lasting effect this episode is likely to have? The mind boggles. This really is fancruft. We don't even know what her illness actually is; "cancer" is not a thing. Possibly if it were known whether this was liver cancer or uterine cancer or ovarian cancer or pancreatic cancer some research effort might result. But we don't. Instead we have an article about a month in which the British press lost its mind, which it does, mind you, on the regular. Elinruby ( talk) 07:00, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
see Susan G. Komen for the Cure for example. But this is not that. Elinruby ( talk) 07:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep As per my previous reasoning. The topic has garnered considerable media attention and continues to do so as the narrative still evolves. The content may be amended if required though on the first glance it seems fine to me. I would not characterise it as libellious or otherwise improper. This is an important episode in the said person's public life which cannot be properly addressed in the overview article, so having a standalone article is in place. I support moving it to a better (more respectful) title. -- TadejM my talk 09:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per NOTNEWS — or NOTGOSSIP if there is such a thing! The topic is thoroughly unencyclopedic and the title should be downright embarrassing to whomever dreamed that up... That's your most likely search term? Really?!?!? Carrite ( talk) 19:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Bilorv's analysis of what this article/story is really about is on-point, as is Liz about the distaste motivation of many delete !voters. I come down on the side of keeping what we have, and evolving it towards what Bilorv wants to see as the sources become available. If it were possible to move it to draft space and keep there until those sources materialize, I would support that instead. Vadder ( talk) 20:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Do note that someone tried to close this as no consensus, citing the quality of arguments unlike the vote count which was used in the first nomination's closure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Killuminator ( talk • contribs) 21:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The first nomination's keep counts were way more overwhelming than this one (or this one's delete counts). Aaron Liu ( talk) 21:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I've left a note on the attempted closer's talkpage. It was a non-admin closure before the seven days had expired; Silver seren was right to revert. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him • ☎️) 21:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: This is a regrettable vote in favor of keep, as I think the whole affair was rather distasteful. However, per policy, distasteful things can merit encyclopedic coverage. In this case, the gossip itself became the subject of widespread and sustained coverage. While the gossip alone would not merit even a mention in the article on Kate, the gossip was so widespread as to inspire independent coverage of it. I also definitely see this as an incident where LASTING is already fulfilled, given that the BBC is in hot water for its coverage of the affair. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 21:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Did you read that link? It lists a number of times the BBC is "in hot water" over its coverage of the Monarchy. This is just another time. No, there are no reliable independent sources with study on the media and these events, nor study on sociology and these events, nor study on the monarchy and these events, nor study on medical privacy and these events, nor study on anything and these events. If there are going to be those studies, they have not been published yet, and its definitely NOT Wikipedia's job to anticipate them. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 22:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    We needn't anticipate anything, given the coverage of the gossip and its fallout has already been discussed in reliable sources: USA Today, The Seattle Times (originally published by Mercury News), Harper's Bazaar, etc. Heck, the Archbishop of Canterbury commented on the matter. This is a notable incident with widespread, reliable coverage. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 22:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    None of those are studies of anything. Wikipedia is not the news, and Harper's Bazaar, you can't be serious. Nor does gossip not become gossip when it is repeated. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    You appear to misunderstand NOTNEWS, which is meant to prevent articles on common incidents the receive coverage (for example, a one-off, small-time robbery of a non-notable bank). It does not preclude articles on news items. Otherwise, half the articles that make it to ITN wouldn't qualify for articles before they could no longer appear at ITN. You seem also confused about the purpose of an article like this. This isn't to repeat gossip, but to describe it and its impact as reliable sources have. Wikipedia routinely discusses gossip and conspiracy theories without simply repeating it. ~ Pbritti ( tealk) 23:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Comment Hundreds of thousands of people a year develop some form of cancer. The only reason why her diagnosis would be special is that she is the Princess of Wales ie a celebrity. She went to a store! I would say alert the media, but apparently someone did. Because... she is a celebrity. Do your shopping trips draw news coverage? there is simply no event in this story that is notable if she is not a celebrity, and I actually question whether we need to know the fine details of her movements even if she unquestionably *is* famous. She is notable because she is the Princess of Wales, not for her engagement calendar of choreographed events, or her shopping trips or her health care. Should she shoot her husband, start a punk bank, delver food to Gaza or quarrel with the King there might possibly be an argument for the notability of her actions. But not for going to a store! It's a complete non-event. The media/online/public frenzy that *is* arguably notable is simply what she deals with on an ongoing basis. There is nothing unusual about the past couple of weeks except the exact flavour of the recent nuttiness. So the scope would need to be encompassing and not just about this particular Tulip frenzy. I just can't formulate a keep rationale. And I am an inclusionist and I am trying. By the way, I grant that I am not in Britain but when I typed "Where is Kate" into Google News an hour ago, my most recent result returned was 15 days old. I did see something yesterday about somebody apologizing for a joke. But it's hardly the ongoing feeding frenzy that some people seem to think is happening, and I wonder if they understand that the more that they themselves click on these articles the more of them that they (personally, not everyone) will get. Elinruby ( talk) 08:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    You appear to not understand, none of what you imagine requires a new article on Wikipedia, including a BLP problematic COATRACK. You seem confused that Wikipedia is just an article creating mouthpiece for whatever scandal de jour. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 23:13, April 2024 (UTC)
  • delete per WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:UNDUE, WP:BLP, and there's probably more I could throw in. Look, we have a section on "impact" which is just nonsense: there's no way there is enough distance from this event for anyone to be having a good idea of what the consequences will be. The rest is just blow-by-blow repetition of news coverage when a reasonable person has to figure that the cancer itself is going to have a much more substantial impact. This comes across as WP-papparazzi "oh, we have no choice but to publicize this— our readers demand it!" or more accurately, "our slavish devotion to making an article on everything that shows up in the major media demands it." And while I'm at it, this article also exists because of our seeming inability to summarize anything. At best the incident, in a reasonable, readable encyclopedia, would be a few sentences. This poject needs editors, not just writers. Mangoe ( talk) 02:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, per Masem and Mangoe. Fundamentally, this violates WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLPGOSSIP and I don't see this having WP:SUSTAINED coverage. The article may of course be recreated, but in its current state WP:TNT is the better option at our disposal. Pilaz ( talk) 17:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per many of the keep arguments above. Liz makes great points about the rationale of some of those voting for deletion. JM ( talk) 21:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

KBNI-LD

KBNI-LD (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not meet the GNG. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 21:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

William McLean (Quebec politician)

William McLean (Quebec politician) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Biography of a smalltown mayor not properly sourced as passing WP:NPOL #2. As usual, mayors are not "inherently" notable just for existing, and have to be shown to pass WP:GNG on a significant volume of reliable source coverage enabling us to write substantive content about their political impact (specific things they did, specific projects they spearheaded, specific effects their mayoralty had on the development of the community, and on and so forth) -- but this is referenced entirely to primary source directory entries that are not support for notability, with absolutely no evidence of third-party coverage in media or books shown at all. Bearcat ( talk) 21:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect‎ to George Lyon (Canadian politician). Liz Read! Talk! 23:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

William Radenhurst Richmond Lyon

William Radenhurst Richmond Lyon (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Unreferenced article about a political figure not shown as passing WP:NPOL. The attempted notability claim here is that he was mayor of a small town that has long since been eaten up as a city neighbourhood, which is not "inherently" notable in and of itself -- a mayor would have to pass WP:NPOL #2, which hinges on the depth of substance that can actually be written about his political impact and the volume of sourcing that can be shown to support it. But this is strictly on the level of "he is a mayor who existed, the end", and has been tagged as unsourced since 2009 without ever having any new references added to it. As well, notability is WP:NOTINHERITED, so he isn't automatically entitled to keep an unreferenced article just because some of his family members have articles. Bearcat ( talk) 20:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Tony Hinnigan

Tony Hinnigan (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Unref blp, doesn't meet WP:MUSICBIO / WP:GNG. Boleyn ( talk) 20:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Elisa Heinsohn

Elisa Heinsohn (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Doesn't meet WP:BIO / WP:GNG. Boleyn ( talk) 20:19, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The Sinbadventurers

The result was speedy keep, nominator withdrawn. Mach61 12:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)‎ reply

The Sinbadventurers (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Not finding any good secondary sources outside the Norddeutscher Rundfunk review. No hits on ProQuest, which is always a bad sign for the notability of a contemporary western subject. Mach61 12:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Hi there, I created this entry about this opera because there is very little information on it in English. Although one could make the case that there is insufficient source material in English to warrant a wikipedia entry, I'd like to make the argument that a lot of readers would appreciate having a well-written entry in English as opposed to a computer-generated translation of the German entry. Google the opera under its German title "sindbadauken" and I think you'll see why I wanted to fill this void. Cheers! Cosmomontoya ( talk) 13:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Cosmomontoya There's no requirement sources be in English, but I did searches under both the German and English titles. If you can find reliable sources covering this play in depth in any language, please link them here, and I may withdraw this AfD. Mach61 13:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Here are links to some of the publications that I compiled information from when creating the article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtRIX_hN3PU&ab_channel=operapiccola
https://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/magazin/article205169549/Die-Hamburger-Sindbadauken.html
https://www.boosey.com/downloads/NB_Spezial_Kinderoper_web.pdf
https://www.francis-huesers.de/ver%C3%B6ffentlichungen/
https://www.francis-huesers.de/biographie/
https://www.theaterhagen.de/ueber-uns/schauspielermitarbeiter/?tx_theatre_actor%5Baction%5D=show&tx_theatre_actor%5Bactor%5D=1539&cHash=56264df84a11e77fc977e0753dc05562
https://issuu.com/staatsoper_hamburg/docs/oper_journal_3-14-15_b9c9088ff9088c
When I wrote the article, there was also a page on the composer's website which listed all of the cast members in English, however I'm not finding that anymore. This information looks like it is all on the YouTube page. Cosmomontoya ( talk) 21:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Cosmomontoya The Abendblatt source is the only relevant one mentioned for establishing compliance with the general notability guideline. While I suppose it counts, it's not very long, and much of its content is quotes by other people. Two relatively short reviews isn't enough to make a play notable IMO Mach61 22:56, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Just to be sure that we're talking about the same thing: the work is not a play but rather an opera. Moreover, it's an opera performed by children. These are quite rare, and this particular one is worth inclusion because it is a through-composed work, meaning the work starts and ends without interruption, as opposed to a musical, which is a mixture of dialogue (like a play) and music numbers. Hope this helps to clarify the "genre." Cosmomontoya ( talk) 11:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Cosmomontoya as there is no specialized notability guideline for operas, they fall under the aforementioned general notability guideline (GNG); the nature of the opera isn't really relevant to notability. If a third GNG-meeting source can be located, I will withdraw this deletion discussion. Mach61 11:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Mach61: What do you think of this source? I'm not sure what to make of it. Toughpigs ( talk) 20:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Toughpigs Though its the description entry for a recording of Sinbadventures, it mostly covers the opera piccola format without discussing this specific work in detail. Mach61 21:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
It's interesting that this page is in English and not in German: https://archiv.mimecentrum.de/videos/MCB-TV-8973
I missed it when I created the article, however it's interesting because it's written by the librettist. He gives insight into the creative process for the work.
I didn't reference this publication when I wrote the article, however here's a third source:
https://onlinemerker.com/hamburg-staatsoperopera-piccola-die-hamburger-sindbadauken-jugendoper/ Cosmomontoya ( talk) 05:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Cosmomontoya Alright, withdrawn Mach61 12:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 19:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

2024 Kolkata building collapse

2024 Kolkata building collapse (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Wikipedia is not news, this article does not pass WP:NEVENTS due to a lack of breadth of coverage. Sohom ( talk) 19:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Complex/ Rational 20:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hassan Basri Ridzuan

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In his relatively short career, it doesn't appear that he garnered enough significant coverage to meet even #5 of WP:SPORTBASIC, which is the minimum requirement. The best sources found were HMetro and Bharian, neither of which address the subject in any detail. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Complex/ Rational 20:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Zarulizwan Mazlan

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The current article doesn't show how the subject meets #5 of WP:SPORTBASIC and I wasn't able to find anything good in my searches. He is mentioned in passing on his FA's website about a youth fixture, NST, which mentions him in passing in a match report, and Bharian, another passing mention in a report about youth football. His entire career lasted only 170 mins and consisted only of games for Terengganu's reserve team. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect‎ to Anies Baswedan#Family. Liz Read! Talk! 23:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Mutiara Baswedan

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This article was marked with notability concerns a month ago and looking at the articles cited, it seems that she is primarily notable for being the daughter of a governor/presidential candidate, which I think means she fails WP:GNG because she is not notable on her own. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 18:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Redirect. Another case of WP:INVALIDBIO, as her notability is tied to her father. I proposed to redirect this article to Anies Baswedan#Family. Ckfasdf ( talk) 21:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep There is no indication that the nominator has done WP:BEFORE before creating a deletion page [25]. He also lack the ability to understand about Indonesian subject and notability of sources used in the article as he did here in other nomination page that he created [26] [27]. 202.43.93.9 ( talk) 03:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
— 202.43.93.9 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

— Struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Comment This subject is listed as an educator, but their background does not satisfy WP:NPROF. Notability, if any, would rest on other criteria. Qflib ( talk) 02:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Redirect fails WP:GNG and WP:NPROF hence redirect to Anies Baswedan#Family. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 17:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect‎ to Muhammadiyah#Universities. Liz Read! Talk! 23:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

University of Muhammadiyah Aceh

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There is only one source and it is clearly not notable, searching for the university also seems not to have produced anything notable. Hence, it likely fails WP:GNG Allan Nonymous ( talk) 17:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was speedy keep‎. Nomination withdrawn with no remaining deletion proposals (non-admin closure) Atlantic306 ( talk) 21:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The Devil On Trial

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Withdrawn OIM20 ( talk) 08:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Preserved
I apparently clicked the wrong one and put this up as PROD. Sorry about that. So, the user who created the page has been blocked on multiple accounts: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/সিডাটিভ হিপনোটিক্স. (per MushyYank request, stricken)

This page, before I did digging on it, was purely promotional. I added several sources (incidentally, my additions were the reason the PROD was removed), but I don't think this passes WP:NFILM, in my understanding.

It's possible that I'm not following something in the criteria that does make this notable, but I don't know that the documentary should have its own page. In reading the reviews, they focus mainly on the 1981 trial rather than on the film. Some of them mention The Conjuring: The Devil Made Me Do It. One of them mentioned an older documentary that they said "did it better".

I'm willing to dig for more sources if the community decides as a whole that it passes WP:NFILM. 1 might apply b/c there are reviews. But: its only claim to "historical notability" is its coverage of a historical event, of which it is not unique; I saw no indication that the film is up for any kind of award; as far as I know it hasn't been selected for preservation in a national archive; nor did I find any notice of it being taught in an accredited university's film program.

As for the inclusionary criteria that aren't part of the top : it's not unique in any aspect of its production; there aren't any major film stars in it; and it was made by Netflix, so it doesn't fall under the third one.

So, before I spend another several hours sussing out sources for something that, frankly, I stumbled over because of a CS1 error and was erroneously marked as AFI, I thought there should be consensus that it actually passes WP:NFILM. OIM20 ( talk) 16:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Film and Crime. OIM20 ( talk) 16:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: The film only needs to fit one of the criteria of WP:NFILM to demonstrate notability. (Otherwise, every film described on Wikipedia would have to win an award and be preserved in an archive, which is an absurdly high bar.) So the relevant measure here is that it's received multiple reviews. In this case, the combo of the Time article and the New York Times article are enough to demonstrate notability. Good job on rescuing the article! Toughpigs ( talk) 17:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Understood. To clarify, I meant that the PROD I placed on it myself was removed because of the sources I had added in, before I put the PROD on it. The reason given for removing the PROD was only that there were a number of sources. From what you've said I understand that the reason was b/c of the reviews.
    And to be fair, the two you mention were included in the promotional piece it was before, though the NYT review does not say what the article creator claimed it said.
    Part of my concern stems from the fact that many of the reviews focus in a large part on the incident rather than on the film. I don't think I included many of those - it was wee hours for me and I've since closed those tabs. There were a lot of reviews, but not all of them from places that I think are considered RS.
    But thank you for explaining. Since it only needs two reviews and it has a number, I will try to focus my research on the production and casting areas, to get a better source than IMDB. OIM20 ( talk) 18:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • I'm confused. What's the reason advanced for deletion exactly? The film received multiple reviews, including 1 in the NYT..... Strong keep. (I'm the one who deproDed the page, fwiw).- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 17:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I know you did. I'm not trying to be contrarian, though I'm sure it seems it. I really was thinking that this needed more than just reviews, so I misunderstood the criteria for NFILM. Not the first time I've misunderstood something.
    After I realized that the AFI was placed on the article erroneously, I looked into the article creator's talk page and found the note about them being a banned user. I realized when looking at the other pages in drafts listed on their talk page that they were posting promotional articles - which was what the other cleanup on the article you took care of (the sections I stopped at b/c I wasn't sure continuing would be worth the effort if it was just going to get nuked) were. Thank you for taking care of that.
    Thank you for your patience. I still consider myself relatively new. I'm trying to learn. OIM20 ( talk) 18:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Should i change my talk page? I do not wish or mean any harm to anyone.... please guide me, i will change accordingly. Omadacycline ( talk) 14:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Move to lowercase "on" if we keep it or recreate it again. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: @ OIM20: thank you for your clarifications and concern. Two things, though: 1) the user who created the page has been blocked on multiple accounts: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/সিডাটিভ হিপনোটিক্স: no, I read the page and I'm sorry but that's not accurate. The page creator is NOT blocked and he says he's not the person in question. Can I ask you to strike that comment or to rephrase that bit of your rationale at the very least, please? 2) Did I understand your current position: you now think the film is notable, am I right? Would you consider withdrawing? It might save other contributors some time. Thank you.- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank), 22:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, I'll withdraw - how do I do that? OIM20 ( talk) 05:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC); I think I understand how. OIM20 ( talk) 05:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Withdraw - I apologize for the trouble and thank everyone for their patience. OIM20 ( talk) 05:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Is there any problem with the content of the page?
    Sock? I am not any sock.
    And i just want to contribute..... the devil on trial is not about anyone.... I am confused, have i done anything wrong..... Omadacycline ( talk) 14:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The "Withdraw" notice you replied to means that the nomination is withdrawn. OIM20 ( talk) 07:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
the devil on trial: The Devil On Trial: Unpacking the reality behind Netflix's chilling documentary, is it a true story? - The Economic Times (indiatimes.com)
The Devil On Trial - Wikidata
The Devil on Trial (2023) - IMDb
Watch The Devil on Trial | Netflix Official Site
The Devil on Trial | Rotten Tomatoes Omadacycline ( talk) 14:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Linking to the Wikidata item isn't a source.
The others are on the page already, with the exception of the Economic Times. I don't know that there's much more to add that isn't about the case itself, unless there's a review in that article. I can't read it- it pops up a "login to read" screen and then it very kindly doesn't give me a spot to do that, or to create an account.
I'd like to have had a news article about the production process more, b/c I'd like to replace the one primary source for that. And I'd like to have something that lists the first two actors in the cast list other than the IMDB page, since that's a user edited site. But I didn't find either of those things. OIM20 ( talk) 08:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Ragged Islands

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This was created many years ago by a banned user. It is unsourced. I don't think it's a hoax, although it seems more likely based on my WP:BEFORE that there are a group of islands called Ragged Islands but not a "settlement" with that name. In any event, even if the place as named exists, I don't believe it meets the low bar of WP:NPLACE. Bbb23 ( talk) 16:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Canada. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 17:18, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This does exist as a group of islands, but not as a named settlement as the article claimed. I've rephrased it accordingly, but cannot find adequate sourcing to say anything more than "this exists, the end" — so even rewritten it still can't stick around without sourcing, but no prejudice against recreation if somebody can write something more substantial with better sources than I've been able to find. Bearcat ( talk) 17:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect‎ to List of television stations in South Carolina#LPTV stations. Liz Read! Talk! 23:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

W30CV-D

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Fails WP:GNG; written like an advertisement. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 16:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

WXSX-LD

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Subject does not meet the GNG. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 16:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Arnold Shara

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Cricketer Lugstub that fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT. (proposed by JTtheOG) Avishai11 ( talk) 16:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Avishai11 Can you explain me why you removed the PROD and immediately nominated it for deletion via AFD? Uncontested PROD would anyway get deleted in 7 days' time. RoboCric Let's chat 16:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
Oh my gosh! I am so sorry, as this was an accident. I clicked the wrong button. Is there any way to undo this? Avishai11 ( talk) 16:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep‎. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 06:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Low Pavement, Chesterfield

Low Pavement, Chesterfield (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I have not been able to find significant coverage of this road in reliable sources. The sources in the article are listings of individual buildings, but there's no evidence those buildings meet WP:NBUILDING. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 16:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography, Transportation, and England. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 16:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Low Pavement is mentioned in various directories from the 19th Century, two of which I've just added, not to mention 5 (technically 6) different listed buildings on the small street. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 16:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Listings in directories are not significant coverage, and having listed buildings doesn't establish notability of the street that they're on. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 16:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I have now added a couple of books that noted during the 1970s, the town council intended to demolish the buildings on the street, however decided the buildings together were considered to be of 'township merit' which is why the buildings are all listed around that time period. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 17:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Those sources seem to be talking more about the neighborhood overall, rather than Low Pavement, which is mentioned but not described in detail. The false bomb threat is a minor aspect of the street and doesn't contribute to the street's notability, nor is a bomb threat in itself notable per WP:1E. Additionally, while Chesterfield Market is likely notable, that doesn't mean Low Pavement is notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 19:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Added another notable event, the then Prince Charles and Princess Diana opening The Pavements Shopping Center on the street in November 1981, another surely notable event. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 19:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    There need to be sources showing that the street is notable, which means that it has significant coverage in reliable sources. The fact that an event occurred on the street does not mean that the street itself is notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 19:46, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    13 Grade II listed buildings, 2 Grade II listed Light posts, one of the oldest open-air markets in the country. the current king of England opening an indoor marketplace, and a recent bomb threat, I think that's plenty enough to prove the street's significance, but I'm of course happy to let others decide on this. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 20:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. The number of historic buildings along this street show clear evidence of notability. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    We still need SIGCOV to keep an article, rather than merging or some other ATD. Have you found any? voorts ( talk/ contributions) 15:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - While I'm not sure the bomb threat or the royal visit (both of which have happened in lots of places) contribute much to the Notability!, the listed buildings do. The buildings themselves meet WP:NBUILDING, by virtue of their listed status. The street is in a conservation area, [28] (see pages 27-8), which gives it both status and protection, and it won an award, [29]. Overall, I think there's enough. KJP1 ( talk) 10:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Notability is not inherited: having listed buildings and being in a conservation area does not make a street notable. By that logic, almost every street in every city would be notable because there's always something historic on most streets and many streets are in some type of designated arwa. Additionally, the inner city revitalization project won an award, not the street itself. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 15:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    By that logic, almost every street in every city would be notable because there's always something historic on most streets and many streets are in some type of designated arwa. That is very clearly not true. The vast majority of streets, even in countries with very long histories of built heritage like the UK, do not have a single listed building on them. And you're misunderstanding the argument. A street isn't inheriting notability from the historic buildings along it. The historic buildings along it shows that it is historic and therefore notable. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:31, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    A street isn't inheriting notability from the historic buildings along it. The historic buildings along it shows that it is historic and therefore notable. That's circular: the street is notable because it is historic, it is historic because it has historic buildings, and because it has historic buildings it's notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 15:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Voorts I'm really struggling to see your argument with this, a street becomes notable because of the buildings and features on the street, or events taking place on the street, there's not one piece of asphalt/concrete/cobblestone on the planet that is notable solely for existing. As @ KJP1 noted above, The street is in a conservation area, which gives it both status and protection, and it won an award. Overall, I think there's enough 13 Listed buildings on one street, the notable market, I really cannot see your argument for this not being notable.. Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 17:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
This discussion is becoming rather philosophical. For me, a street covers the buildings that stand on it, it defines the area in which they stand. It can't just be the strip of tarmac down the middle. Queen Anne's Gate, which I'd agree is more notable than this, is important because it has a stack of Grade I listed buildings, in which notable people lived, worked, socialised, died. I don't think anyone would argue to AfD that, and the same argument holds true here. KJP1 ( talk) 17:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
I think you've summed it up perfectly there. @ KJP1 Thief-River-Faller ( talk) 17:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
a street becomes notable because of the buildings and features on the street, or events taking place on the street, there's not one piece of asphalt/concrete/cobblestone on the planet that is notable solely for existing That is incorrect. Notability is not defined by whether a subject (here, a street) is related to another notable subject (that is what I meant by notability is not inherited) A subject is notable for the purposes of Wikipedia if it meets the WP:GNG. The GNG defines a subject as notable if it has receiced significant coverage in relaivle sources.
Here, Low Pavement, Chesterfield, is not notable just because there may be notable buildings on the street (and as I've noted before, under the subject specific notability guideline for buildings, even being listed isn't enough: you still need to show signifcant coverage).
To use your example, Queen Anne's Gate is notable because a lot of people have written about it as a subject. If people have written significant coverage of Low Pavement, Chesterfield, then it would be notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 17:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Source assessment

This is not a full source assessment. I've already explained why the fact that a potentially notable shopping mall exists on the street and the fact that royals visited the shopping mall to open it doesn't establish notability. Likewise, a bomb threat at a local pub doesn't establish that the street that the pub is on is notable. Moreover, there is no SNG that states that having several listed buildings on a street establishes notability. If editors would like there to be one, they should suggest that, but we can't invent SNGs to fit our preferences during AfD discussions. To summarize the below, there are two sources, both by the same author, that discuss one aspect of the Low Pavement (its preservation), albeit in the broader context of revitalization of the area. I would not oppose merging some of the information here to Chesterfield, Derbyshire, or in creating an article for The Pavements, since that seems to be notable. I think it's a stretch to say that the street on its own is notable. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 01:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Source assessment table:
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward GNG?
Derbyshire Times Yes Yes No The source states, in full: "The name Low Pavement simply refers to the road on the lower side of the Market Place – the ‘new market’ laid out in the 1190s to replace Chesterfield’s original market place to the north of the parish church. What is now High Street was known as High Pavement until the 19th century." ✘ No
Bagshaw Yes ? No This is a list of businesses on the street from 1846. ✘ No
White Yes Yes No This is a list of businesses on the street from 1852. ✘ No
Bradley Yes Yes ~ Discusses preservation of Low Pavement as part of a broader revitalisation plan. ~ Partial
Sadler Yes Yes No The page linked to reprints an old advertisement from a business on Low Pavement. ✘ No
Picture the Past Yes Yes No This source is a photograph. ✘ No
Chesterfield Online Yes ? No This is a list of businesses on the street. ✘ No
Smith and Sykes Yes Yes No This is a travel guide that reviews some businesses on the street. ✘ No
Marsh No From the website's about page: "Destination Chesterfield delivers a number of marketing campaigns that are helping to improve the economic prosperity of Chesterfield by promoting it as a contemporary destination to inward investors and supporting existing businesses." No No The source merely notes that wosmething called the "Eco Hub" is located on Low Pavement, but does not discuss Low Pavement at all. ✘ No
Appraisal ? Appears to be an appraisal for the Town Council, but the authorship is unclear. ? There is no indication of fact-checking. Yes Contains significant coverage describing the street. ? Unknown
European Heritage Awards Yes Yes No This indicates that the Town Revitalisation won an award, but it does not discuss Low Pavement in any significant detail. ✘ No
Chesterfield Market By the Chesterfield Borough Council. ? Unknown whether this is fact-checked. No Low Pavement isn't even mentioned on this page. https://www.chesterfield.gov.uk/explore-chesterfield/markets-and-market-hall.aspx#:~:text=Chesterfield%20Market%20is%20one%20of,and%20events%20all%20year%20round. ✘ No
Revitalising Chesterfield Market No Govenment website. ? No Regarding Low Pavement, the source states in full: "The re-siting of market stalls currently located in New Square and on Low Pavement into a single market ground of 100 stalls in Market Square – creating a more defined and vibrant market area. The area will also include a flexible events space." ✘ No
Derbyshire Victoria County History Trust Yes Yes No Low Pavement appaers on the page twice, both in captions to photographs. ✘ No
Bradley 2 Yes Yes ~ Discusses preservation of Low Pavement as part of a broader revitalisation plan. ~ Partial
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}.

Comment on source analysis. The two sources "Bradley" and "Bradley2" are by the same author and so should be consolidated. When merged I would adjudge the overall coverage from the two combined to amount to significant coverage. Rupples ( talk) 18:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Point 2: It's highly likely the redevelopment of Low Pavement received ongoing coverage in The Derbyshire Times in the early 1980s. Unfortunately, the issues of the newspaper covering this period have not been scanned in to the British Newspaper Archive, though they would be available locally on microfilm at the main Chesterfield library. [30] Rupples ( talk) 19:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. The source analysis above while pointing to non-notability isn't the whole story. The street contains numerous listed buildings. We could presumably have a page for each one under WP:NBUILD. Surely better to have the street as a 'wrapper' for the notable buildings; perhaps there isn't enough to say about each one (I haven't checked whether there is or is not). So, strict interpretation of the notability guideline in the way argued by the nominator in this case doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. The article does require improvement though. Recommend removing the bomb threat piece; it is an insignificant and trivial moment in the street's history and detracts from the article's merit. Rupples ( talk) 00:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Erm. Just discovered the Low Pavement listed buildings are included within Listed buildings in Chesterfield, Derbyshire, which kind of negates my main reason for keeping this. Not sure now, so striking above !vote. Rupples ( talk) 03:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - one of the most notable streets in the town, and on balance I think there is enough for an article. I've added some more history, and if anyone has access to Bestall's History of Chesterfield books, I suspect there will be more in there. Warofdreams talk 00:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Merge to a new Chesterfield Town Centre article. There are also several listed buildings on Market Place and New Square on the opposite side of the square from this steet, as well as other nearby streets. With such an enormous number of listed buildings, there's also an enormous number of streets with multiple listed buildings, but that does not mean the street itself is necessarily notable. The town centre is a designated conservation area that includes other listed buildings and would provide better context as a notable area. Some of this article already duplicates Chesterfield,_Derbyshire#The_Pavements and Chesterfield,_Derbyshire#Shopping,_entertainment_and_leisure. Also, all these listed buildings are now just facades whose interiors are now part of The Pavements Shopping Centre. Maybe that should have an article instead. Reywas92 Talk 04:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect‎ to WSCG (TV). (non-admin closure) The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 04:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

WSCG-LD

WSCG-LD (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not meet the GNG. Mvcg66b3r ( talk) 16:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Redirect to WSCG-TV: Honestly, given the fact that WSCG-LD once operated as an sattlelite station of WSCG as WGSA until they lost the rights to The CW by WSAV-DT2, that would be a really simple thing to do. mer764KCTV5 (He/Him | t • c) 17:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

User talk:Wcquidditch|☎]] ✎ 17:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Redirect to WSCG-TV per Mer764Wiki. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 18:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Vicky Goswami

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Non notable person, unclaimed married person and there’s no claim 100% which makes in Durg criminal HarshalDhotre06 ( talk) 15:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Christopher John Fields

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WP:BLP of a theatre director, not properly sourced as passing inclusion criteria for theatre directors. The main notability claim on offer here is that his work exists, which isn't "inherently" notable without WP:GNG-worthy coverage about it, but the sole footnote offers a blurb's worth of information about him in the process of being fundamentally about something else, which isn't enough to get him over GNG all by itself. Bearcat ( talk) 15:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 16:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Mikhail Khodunov

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Doesn't seem to meet #5 of WP:SPORTBASIC and his professional career consisted only of 293 mins of game time. I found no decent coverage in Belarusian and Russian searches yielded only a trivial match report mention in Gorod214 and a list of footballers sitting on the bench in the same source. Neither of these show WP:SIGCOV. The articles in both Belarusian Wikipedias also don't show SIGCOV, just database sources. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 15:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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Amit Bhatia

The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn. ( non-admin closure)‎ Twinkle1990 ( talk) 08:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply


Amit Bhatia (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I don't see any reason for the existence of the article. Sources are mentions only. Failing WP:GNG, WP:INVALIDBIO as well as WP:THREE per WP:RS. Twinkle1990 ( talk) 15:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 14:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

FC Indiana Girls Academy

FC Indiana Girls Academy (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not have the WP:SIGCOV to meet the WP:GNG. The PROD was removed with the rationale that this should be merged and redirected to the main F.C. Indiana article but seeing as the title is incorrect and the page has been tagged as having no sources since 2015, I can't go along with that option. Let'srun ( talk) 14:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 14:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

A++

A++ (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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bundled nomination. all three articles were created by gploc, and cover essentially the same topic.

gploc is the creator of these languages - he owns the websites https://lambda-bound.de/ and https://lambda-bound.com/. i do not know what the first one is, but the second promotes a book about a++.

a quick look for sources all lead back to primary sources and this book.

this nomination is bundled with:

ARS++ (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

ARS-based programming (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ltb d l ( talk) 13:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Delete all. The language author has apparently written quite a lot on this topic, but as far as I can tell, one blog aside, nobody else has. ~ GQO talk! 15:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • delete as A412. Notability would stem from multiple independent sources, and these just aren't independent of the language author. Andy Dingley ( talk) 16:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I was unable to find sources apart from the author about these topics when I searched. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 19:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete/redirect A++ to A+, delete others A+ is definitely a plausible typo, but the concept itself here is non-notable. Nate • ( chatter) 23:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete for several reasons. The first reason is that there are no secondary sources

The second reason is that there are not many sources The third reason is that there are typographical errors. GQO ( talk) 6:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  • Delete Is there anything else than primary sources here? (rhetoric question) Rrjmrrr ( talk) 09:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep‎. (non-admin closure) The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 04:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Anil V. Kumar

Anil V. Kumar (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Failed WP:FILMMAKER, WP:DIRECTOR also Wikipedia general notability criteria. Youknowwhoistheman ( talk) 12:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep: Meets WP:DIRECTOR. Has several notable directions.
Rydex64 ( talk) 19:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep: Passes GNG per WP: SIGCOV. A bit WP: DIRECTOR since some of the films which are inarguably notable were co-directed. As the case may be, the subject passes WP: CREATIVE in filmmaking having been cited in sources for his Entertaining styles and film directing. Fills a bit of WP: ENT All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 23:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Looks like XFDcloser failed the "transclude to new log" again on this one.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Alpha3031 ( t • c) 13:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I don't understand the relisting when a simple consensus is met. All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 09:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
Otuọcha, XFDcloser screwed up the relisting. When a discussion is relisted, it's taken off the old AFD daily log page and put on today's AFD daily log page. It looks like neither one of those things happened so it was wise to relist this discussion as no editors or closers would have gone back to the AFD daily log page from March 12th to review this discussion. It brought the discussion up from several weeks ago to this past week so fresh eyes could see it. Unfortunately though, we didn't get any new participants here but it will probably close over the next 24 hours. Liz Read! Talk! 23:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 14:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Marion Hepburn

Marion Hepburn (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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No significant coverage here, largely a collection of obituaries and an article in CTInsider from a "oldsaybrookhistory@gmail.com". WP:GNG seems to be failed here. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 12:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Connecticut. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 12:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors and Women. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 12:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Satisfies GNG with significant coverage in many books and periodicals. Amongst other coverage, she actually has an obituary in the New York Times [31]. There is also one in United Press International [32] and there are book reviews [33] [34] and other coverage of her books [35], amongst other coverage. James500 ( talk) 19:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I understand your concerns, and saw this as well. My concern here is that I'm not sure a single notable source covering one notable event of her life is enough to satisfy WP:GNG, particularly with respect to WP:BIO1E. I will grant that NYT is a very notable source, but I think more sources would be needed here. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 20:18, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I said "amongst other coverage". I have just added some additional items, and I could add even more. An obituary is a biography, not coverage of the event of a person's death, so BIO1E is not applicable. The obituary is not purely about her death, its also about her career as a historian and author, and her activist activities. I have never heard of a person with an NYT obituary being deleted, and I am under the impression that the community generally regard it as being overwhelming evidence of notability. James500 ( talk) 20:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    There are quite a few people with NYT obits not considered a good way of establishing notability beyond the death itself (see WP:OBITUARIES). The remaining books you cite seem to be tangential coverage, hence, not good for establishing notability.
    As for the WP:REDACT violation, I will WP:AGF, and WP:MUTUAL it. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 20:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am alarmed to see you edit a comment after someone has already responded to it, which violates WP:REDACT. Please put your changes below as a reply to the comment. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 20:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am alarmed to see an account with less than 970 edits, mostly made in a sudden recent burst, that has just nominated a person with an NYT obituary for deletion, badgering my !vote, and then wikilawyering, in an attempt to prevent me from adding additional sources. What you are asking me to do would make my !vote incomprehensible to the closing admin. James500 ( talk) 20:38, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Hi, I just want to be clear here that I wasn't assuming you were acting in bad faith here, I was merely concerned about the clarity of the discussion. (It generally makes sense in these cases for somebody to just say "hey I found some sources here" below to reinforce your point above rather than pre-address the comments be editing your vote, which can be quite confusing for people reading the discussion.) I was merely making a good faith request here, and apologize if it seemed like I was casting WP:ASPERSIONS. That being said, please refrain from doing the same to me. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am perfectly happy to WP:MUTUAL the whole thing. I accept that you were not trying to upset me, and I promise I was not trying to upset you either. No hard feelings? James500 ( talk) 21:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    None whatsoever here, and I appreciate your feedback on this AfD, even if I may disagree with it. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 21:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Meets WP:GNG. In addition to the NYT and UPI obituaries, here's a front-page one from the Hartford Courant: [36], [37]. A 1981 profile: [38]. She was making headlines for her writerly ambitions as a teenager: [39]. Jfire ( talk) 23:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Good find on [8]! Could you add it to the article? Allan Nonymous ( talk) 17:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep because of the obituaries identified in this discussion. Toughpigs ( talk) 21:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    I in general have problems with the use of obituaries as sources (see WP:OBITUARIES). However, I think sources [8] and [9] provided by User:Jfire are quite compelling, and I want to thank him for doing the digging here. Allan Nonymous ( talk) 17:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per the comments here, this looks to be a solid Keep. Go4thProsper ( talk) 14:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 14:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Youngboi OG

AfDs for this article:
Youngboi OG (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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The sources that aren't deadlinks are all UGC. I'm not entirely convinced this isn't a G3 but I don't particularly feel the need for this to be speedied either, already had an admin look at it privately. Alpha3031 ( t • c) 12:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Delete: Most links listed doesn't exist. Appears to be a hoax. @T.C.G. [talk] 14:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep‎. Liz Read! Talk! 05:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Mind uploading in fiction

Mind uploading in fiction (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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The topic is likely notable (see SFE), but our execution is terrible. First, the prose part is pretty much unreferenced (the article is tagged with OR warning for 5 years now), then a gigantic list of random examples (mostly unreferenced too), failing WP:OR/ WP:V/ WP:IPC/ MOS:TRIVIA/ WP:NLIST/ WP:NOTTVTROPES/etc. Mind uploading does not have a section about 'fiction/culture', just mentions this article in lead. Looking at article's history, this was split (exorcised...) from the main article in the old 00's, and of course it had no references or such ( [40]). The article hasn't been improved since, quality wise, just accumulated more fancruft. WP:TNT is required. For now, this can be WP:ATD-Rredirected to the main article, with no prejudice for this being restored as an article - but it will need to be rewritten from scratch using reliable sources like the SFE article I've linked. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 08:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep Opening sentence of the deletion rational "The topic is likely notable" immediately followed by "but our execution is terrible" WP:DELETIONISNOTCLEANUP. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 07:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The nomination mentioned WP:V as a rationale for deletion, which is perfectly allowed by policy. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 07:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    There is nothing that is notable that is not also verifiable, per WP:NRVE. The fact that something notable is not verified is a surmountable problem, and not a reason for deletion. Jclemens ( talk) 03:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per all above. This is a sufficient kernel of an article to keep in mainspace. BD2412 T 15:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I see the article has been effectively TNTed and is being rewritten. As such my initial rationale no longer applies. Unless the article reverted to its older version, I also favour keeping the new version. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 05:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

List of songs about Chennai

AfDs for this article:
List of songs about Chennai (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Same reason as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs about Ahmedabad. The list fails WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:LISTN and WP:OR. There is little to nothing worthwhile in this list, be it content or context. This has even been deleted previously. Geschichte ( talk) 09:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, not eligible for Soft Deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 07:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 05:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The International Resource Privilege

The International Resource Privilege (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Incoherent start/stub article with a references list that despite its surface impressiveness doesn’t seem to demonstrate notability. While I personally agree completely with the sentiments expressed, it’s quite unclear that it passes encyclopedic muster, in my opinion. RadioactiveBoulevardier ( talk) 09:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Already PROD'd, not eligible for Soft Deletion. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 07:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Princess Augusta of Solms-Braunfels

Princess Augusta of Solms-Braunfels (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG. Apart from her marriage the article is entirely about her relations. Sourced only to one directory and three self-published genealogical websites. DrKay ( talk) 07:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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Delete: Very little is actually about her. 98.228.137.44 ( talk) 17:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

List of programmes broadcast by Channel U (Singapore)

List of programmes broadcast by Channel U (Singapore) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails NLIST and NOTDIRECTORY. Wikipedia is not a TVGuide.  //  Timothy ::  talk  14:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was Withdrawn * Pppery * it has begun... 04:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)‎ reply

1768 China sorcery panic

1768 China sorcery panic (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This article appears to be based mostly or entirely on a single source, to the point that it may qualify as copyright infringement. Whether the stated topic is notable is questionable; few sources other than the one used discuss it in any detail. As I noted in a previous discussion on this page, it's possible that the book itself is notable, but for the time being I'd suggest just deleting this page. SilverStar54 ( talk) 06:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • The article was created in 2020 by a student editor with 29 edits: all except the few statutory student guided-tour edits are on this article, and all were made between March and June 2020. No substantial edits (beyond gnomish fixes) have been made to the article since. All but 5 of the 51 citations are to Philip A. Kuhn's 1990 book Soulstealers. Kuhn makes clear this is a study, a single example of a sorcery panic; the other sources indicate similar witch-hunts around the world, and closely-similar "queue"- (pigtail-) stealing incidents at other times in China. Even Kuhn, therefore, does not assert that the 1768 incident that he uses as an example is "notable" in Wikipedia's terms: it is not, as nobody else has chosen to write about it. On the other hand, Witch-hunt is certainly notable, and is a reasonable redirect target. An alternative would be to create a stubby article from this one, Queue-cutting sorcery panics in China, giving the four dates (1768, 1810, 1867, and 1908) and trying to say a little (in balance) about each one. I'll support either the redirect or the reshaping as folks prefer; both solutions will result in most of the material here being cut. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 11:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Paranormal, and Religion. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 17:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I'd happily withdraw my nomination if someone volunteers to rewrite the page. If we're giving it a new title and substantially changing the content, it might make sense to WP:BLOWITUP and start over at the new location (perhaps that's what you were suggesting), especially since the content here could violate copyright. SilverStar54 ( talk) 16:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, that's what we should do. Fancy collaborating on that? Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Deletion is not cleanup. Seems to meet GNG. It has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Srnec ( talk) 00:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Srnec - one RS does not make a topic notable. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 07:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep easily meets WP:GNG, in that it has substantial coverage in at least three reliable sources. The state of the article should be irrelevant here as it's adequately sourced with inline citations.
    At the time the AfD was started it had three sources including the Kuhn book. @ Chiswick Chap why are you discounting the Chinese-language articles? Chang Shih-Ying's article is entirely about the article topic, and the Su Ping article devotes about three pages to this incident.
    I've added a fourth, from Kyoto University, it has a DOI number but I can't tell if it's a journal article or a research paper. I can verify through Google Translate that it's about the 1768 incident, and notably it predates the Kuhn book by three years. Oblivy ( talk) 01:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    My understanding is that the non-Kuhn sources rightly look at ALL the panics, not just Kuhn's example, and that the notable subject is the set if them, not one instance. We'll do much better to follow the sources evenly, not give a near-COPYVIO Kuhnfest in UNDUE detail. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 01:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    Su Ping talks about two panics, one in 1768 and one in 1876. That, plus some analysis, is the entirety of the article, and three pages (nearly 3000 characters) of Chinese text is not de minimis coverage. Chang Shih-Ying is about the queue generally and draws both on Kuhn and Su Ping as well as other materials (apologies for misstating this earlier) but we're talking about notability not verifiability so I don't see that as an issue. Oblivy ( talk) 02:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
    The notable topic is the panics, plural, and there is precisely nothing stopping us from changing the scope to that. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 06:52, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Does seem to meet WP:GNG. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Withdrawn - Sounds like there are more reliable sources on this topic than I realized. I like @ Chiswick Chap's proposal to make this article about all of the queue-cutting panics. After this is closed I plan to start a move discussion.
SilverStar54 ( talk) 16:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. Liz Read! Talk! 05:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Ziff (Book of Mormon)

Ziff (Book of Mormon) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This is a Sunday school lesson with no available independent reliable sources Big Money Threepwood ( talk) 06:08, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Religion, Christianity, and Latter Day Saints. Big Money Threepwood ( talk) 06:08, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This is an article about a piece of trivia; created 20 years ago, it hasn't improved much then, and improvement isn't possible because there isn't a body of secondary sources with meaningful coverage to cite. If there were Sunday School lessons, then there might be studies of its theological/cultural reception by the relevant religious community, but that's not the case. Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 06:46, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. WP:NOTDICT Speculation about one lone un-defined word found only twice in the Book of Mormon. — Maile ( talk) 12:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - WP:SYNTH and WP:DICDEF. This is not only a synthesis of original sources, but so short and lacking in context that it's a dictionary definition plus etymology. We are neither. Bearian ( talk) 20:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Per others above, this article does not establish notability. It reads like a dictionary entry and has no claim to notability in the sources.
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz Read! Talk! 05:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Inverse Ninjas VS. The Public Domain

Inverse Ninjas VS. The Public Domain (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Unfortunately non-notable. The article has secondary sources cited, each of them citing the game as an example of a trend of creative properties emerging after the expiry of Steamboat Willie in the public domain. In terms of the details about the game, the sources at best just repeat what the game page has to say. The sources lack reception and reviews about the game in a manner necessary to indicate that this game has notability beyond the novelty of its exploitation of the recent Steamboat Willie public domain. Given the specific context of the coverage, I would be comfortable to also consider merging this to Works based on a copyright-free Mickey Mouse although I can't comment on the strength of that article. Welcome any views or additional sources. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ ( talk) 05:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect‎ to Sujud Tilawa. as an ATD. Liz Read! Talk! 02:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Sajdah Places in Quran

Sajdah Places in Quran (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Cannot find actual sources that state "Sajdah Places in Quran" and also per WP:NOTGUIDE. Also I know AFDNOTCLEANUP but this is written religiously. 🍪 Cookie Monster 00:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

A redirect to Sujud Tilawa seems an obvious solution, given that the opening words are "Sajda in Quran, also known as Sujud at-Tilawah" (with a piped link). Any encyclopedic content here that can be sourced can be added to that page. UrielAcosta ( talk) 04:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 03:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was no consensus‎. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 13:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Susana Vinga

Susana Vinga (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Associate prof, some early career awards, decent number of citations but perhaps not especially high. Doesn't seem to meet WP:NPROF. Might be WP:TOOSOON or WP:MILL. Kj cheetham ( talk) 20:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC) reply

The notability is mainly "local" (national prizes in Mathematics and from the University of Lisbon, as mentioned).
Main achievements in alignment-free sequence analysis and comparison (link to page), and internationally in 2% of highly-cited researchers (2021 and career) by "Stanford University has released its global list that represents the top 2% of Scientists in various disciplines, on 10-10-2022" - DOI: 10.17632/btchxktzyw.4) (not yet on the page). 193.136.100.230 ( talk) 16:22, 21 February 2024 (UTC) reply
I like that citation. Thanks. -- User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 16:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC) reply
I did some looking into this data. Vinga is listed in the main sub-category of "bioinformatics". Based on her full career publication and citation record, the Stanford data places her at rank 91 out of 7,142 in this broad subfield; I believe this is a figure that supports her notability ... but need additional measures. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 02:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I think her citation record [41] is strong enough for WP:PROF#C1. — David Eppstein ( talk) 00:30, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    thanks - reviewing this ... -- User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 03:10, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    item G. in this Guideline states "Simply having authored a large number of published academic works is not considered sufficient to satisfy Criterion 1." --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 02:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    My opinion is not based on the number of works the subject has authored. It is based on the number of times those works were cited. Six publications with triple-digit citation counts (one with almost quadruple digits) is a good record, one that indicates that her works are having a substantial impact on other researchers in the area. — David Eppstein ( talk) 02:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete an h-index of 29 alone (rather low in a highly cited field such as biology) does not denote "a significant impact in their scholarly discipline [...] as demonstrated by independent reliable sources." as the "independent reliable sources" part is missing. No major award either, so I do not see any WP:NACADEMIC criteria being fulfilled. Broc ( talk) 15:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    The "independent reliable sources" are the 4282 academic publications that cite hers. That's what that phrase in that criterion means: many publications that cite the works of the subject. — David Eppstein ( talk) 17:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, h = 29 is not impressive in her field. To check, I looked at the data for another Portuguese informatician that I know (I won't give his name). He is probably 15 to 20 years older (important, because everyone's h increases with age), but it's hard to tell, because her article doesn't say when she was born and we don't know how long ago the photo was taken. Anyway, my informatician has a Google h = 60, and his most cited publication has 3800 citations. Athel cb ( talk) 09:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep -- per David Eppstein. The h-index argument is convincing. I'd like to see some kind of support for Broc's claim that h-indices run high in Biology. Central and Adams ( talk) 17:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    • It's a well known fact, but here's an article [42] where it is stated "For Biology [...] very highly cited scientists have h ≈ 150". So in my opinion an academic with h-index of 29 in biology is not at all "highly cited", hence doesn't meet C1. Broc ( talk) 21:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      • Broc, I don't even look at those things. If we cannot cite a specific instance of someone citing the work and proving its importance, what are we doing? Drmies ( talk) 03:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
        • @ Drmies I fully agree. Not one single reliable secondary sources describing the impact of the subject on her field of study has been brought up in this AfD. The only "keep" !votes entirely rely on the argument "she has many citations so she must be notable" and I wanted to show how this argument is faulty, as she is not a highly cited author in her field. Your argument still stand, and I agree with it: we do not want to host resumes of WP:MILL academics on Wikipedia. Broc ( talk) 10:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
          • The reason we have NPROF#C1 is that there may not be one single reliable secondary sources describing the impact of the subject on [their] field. Academic work can be quite significant before authors of the secondary lit catch on and this notability criterion is meant to account for that. Central and Adams ( talk) 13:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
            • Central and Adams, I am not at all convinced that that is the reason we have it. I think we have it because it's a thing that counts in some parts of academia at some points--in tenure and promotion. I had a look through the talk page archives of PROF, and what is obvious to me is (I'm summarizing from a few comments by editors like DGG and Randykitty--I cannot claim to have done a comprehensive survey) that any index is a rough guide (and that's still in PROF, at Wikipedia:Notability_(academics)#Citation_metrics), and that writing an article based on those metrics is, ahem, difficult. Plus, your argument is kind of contradictory. If a scholar is cited, then one should expect the citation to say something meaningful about the research or the scholar that was cited, unless, unless! we're just refbombing, like we do in certain disciplines (not mine). Having read quite a few sociology articles recently I'm even less infatuated with indices, and on top of that are the problems noted in various talk page discussions with Google Scholar. Drmies ( talk) 15:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
              • In the sciences authors are cited in research articles to acknowledge their original results, not to discuss the results or explain their meaning or impact. Those things are the province of expository writing rather than research. Scientists can have astonishing impacts on their field without being discussed in expository or other kinds of secondary writing. In the social sciences and humanities it's necessary to discuss these things in actual research because there's no epistemological consensus, but this doesn't happen in the sciences. No question that indicies are a rough guide, but I guess that's why we're having this discussion! Central and Adams ( talk) 15:52, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
                • I think you have a slightly optimistic view of the academic publishing industry. And I'm sorry, but about differing epistemologies leading to different kinds of consensus, I think you are wrong. Drmies ( talk) 21:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. I don't see an h-index argument--I see a citation, not an argument. I do see a counter argument to that claim. What I see is a resume without any secondary sources; primary/company links and Wikipedia articles don't count. As a BLP, it's so poorly verified that it should be sent back to draft space, and I do not see how this passes PROF, let alone the GNG. This shouldn't have been moved into mainspace. Drmies ( talk) 17:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Neutral. (Coming here after Drmies' ping). I currently don't have the time to look into this in great detail, just marking a few points. The citation record, as observed by David Epstein is more than solid. On the other hand, that seems to be most of what we have for an article, as I find the awards less than impressive. Looks like an "up-and-coming" scientist, but associate profs are not very often found notable yet. If some independent sources would come up on which an article can be based, I'd !vote "keep". -- Randykitty ( talk) 18:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    • Haha Randykitty, I figured you would say something along those lines--a position between your professional hard data and the requirements of secondary sourcing in the liberal arts way. Thanks for stopping by! Drmies ( talk) 21:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 00:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep: Very, very strong h-index metric, which strongly indicates her importance to her field— WP:PROF#C1. Anwegmann ( talk) 02:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    29 is not very, very strong. Athel cb ( talk) 10:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Very strong delete. Sorry, but the claims very strong h-index are not verifiable. I did the standard test of looking at the top people cited in the areas she lists in her Google Scholar page. The lowest cited area is "System bioinformatics" where she is competitive and 10th on the list. However, in her other areas she is not close to competitive. Her awards are all minor or junior (we really should say not to include them and the Stanford/Elsevier lists). Without significant acknowledgement of her by the wider community it is wP:TOOSOON. A strong start, but not enough. Ldm1954 ( talk) 22:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'm trying one more relist even though the pool of editors wanting to comment on articles on academics in AFD is limited. But I don't see a reconcilation or consensus here, either they meet Wikipedia:Notability (academics)#C1 or they don't.

Just as an aside, are articles for academics ever redirected to their institution in case they develop a more substantial profile in years to come? I haven't seen that proposed but thought I'd throw that out as an ATD.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC) reply

No, because if the article on the institution includes a list of its professors, it would only be a list of the bluelinked professors. So if we redirected, the article wouldn't mention the redirect target at all. — David Eppstein ( talk) 00:22, 10 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Keep per David Eppstein, especially "Six publications with triple-digit citation counts" a substantial count that is enough to pass NPROF criteria in her field. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 10:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Sorry, but "Six publications with triple-digit citation counts" is nothing special. The other Portuguese scientist I mentioned has 30. Athel cb ( talk) 10:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Eppstein. Xxanthippe ( talk) 09:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC). reply
  • Weak keep. Passes #C1 of WP:NPROF to my eyes. I don't usually recommend keeping associate professors (which is the "weak" part) but the sheer number of citations of her work alone is impressive, as is the number of citations that her most-cited papers have received. As I keep saying, passing one criterion is enough to meet the standard. Qflib ( talk) 20:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Procedural relist to get this lost AfD back in the system
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, * Pppery * it has begun... 02:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 02:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Roman Savchenko (footballer)

Roman Savchenko (footballer) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Appears to fail WP:SIGCOV, and thus WP:GNG. I did several searches in both English and Ukrainian, and only a hockey player came up. This could be a potential WP:TOOSOON situation. Anwegmann ( talk) 01:37, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Xaviersobased

Xaviersobased (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NMG -- non-notable musician. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 01:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Withdrawn by nominator -- appears they do in fact meet the notability minimums. Barely. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

https://www.stereogum.com/2247412/evilgiane-40-feat-nettspend-xaviersobased/music/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/xaviersobased-nettspend-yhapojj-interview-1234982383/
https://www.thefader.com/2023/09/18/song-you-need-xaviersobased-is-his-own-texture
https://www.hotnewhiphop.com/753698-xaviersobased-keep-it-goin-xav-soundcloud-tape-hip-hop-news
https://www.thefader.com/2023/04/24/song-you-need-xaviersobased-and-ayooliis-pop-trunk-is-a-fever-dream
https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/xaviersobased-and-kuru-paterson-new-jersey-new-song-listen/
https://ourgenerationmusic.com/exclusive/xaviersobased-interview-ogm/
https://au.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/50-innovators-shaping-rap-next-50-years-49231/xaviersobased-3-49267/
sorry for the wall of links, but for me, this sure meets "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself." for me Authenyo ( talk) 01:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Comment It seems I'm incorrect about the notability of this artist. I'll withdraw this nomination. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

List of tallest buildings in the European Union

List of tallest buildings in the European Union (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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WP:LISTN. Redundant list. It's basically the same list as List of tallest buildings in Europe minus Russia and Turkey. Randam ( talk) 01:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Delete too similar to List of tallest buildings in Europe. TheTankman ( talk) 19:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Dhaka Dazzlers

Dhaka Dazzlers (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable amateur sports team. Not enough coverage from reliable sources to establish notability. Fails WP:NSPORTS. CycloneYoris talk! 01:01, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. Randykitty ( talk) 12:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Dope Caesar

Dope Caesar (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non- notable Dj and the news publication are not reliable mostly are blogs, More like an advert, Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. Subject failed WP:GNG Calyx2s ( talk) 11:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I meant Significant, independent and reliable (SIR), thank you for pointing out the wrong link shared. The article source are not WP:RS and also doesn't meet WP:SIGCOV. Wasilatlovekesy ( talk) 14:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
If not for the content, the three sources are from reliable sources in Nigeria: The Native Mag, NotJustOk and Culture Custodian. (Suggesting: this is just for WP:RS) and doesn't mean opposing/challenging the state of their content for now. All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 21:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. Tehonk ( talk) 18:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I am skeptical of the nominators statement of SIGCOV. Based in Nigeria sourcing, NotJustOk is a reliable source, and Culture custodian though it was a lyric and few I yet interviews. There are few coverage but fails WP: ANYBIO. Closer to notability though I am seeing a possible case of WP: UPE. All the Best! Otuọcha ( talk) 21:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep: Found these additional sources: Vanguard reliable per WP:NGRS, bellanaija 1 and bellanaija 2, which are generally unreliable per WP:NGRS. Out of the remaining articles, culturecustodian is a reliable source per NGRS, Naija News is borderline and the remaining are not listed, so they could go either way. Royal88888 ( talk) 08:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
On the Vanguard publications which is the first source see [ [43]] so can't be used and For the 2 and 3rd sources see Generally unreliable sources for Nigeria-related information Calyx2s ( talk) 00:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I do not think this passes WP:NSINGER or WP:ANYBIO. Aintabli ( talk) 22:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep - Of all the arguments so far, I find that by Royal88888 to be the most convincing, because the musician has been covered with a certain degree of professionalism by sources that have been deemed reliable at WP:NGRS. That coverage often lapses into typical promotional hype but there is some reliable info with which to build an encyclopedic article, though it would be a stub for the time being. The current WP article is pretty high on hype itself, but that junk can be removed through the standard editing process. --- DOOMSDAYER520 ( TALK| CONTRIBS) 17:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: Some of the sources cited are reliable and their coverage of the subject are fair enough to support the article. Museveni1700 ( talk) 20:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC) reply
For some of the sources listed see [ [44]] and Generally unreliable sources for Nigeria-related information by so doing the article can't meet WP:THREE. Calyx2s ( talk) 01:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC) reply
The 1, 2 and 3rd source listed by him has no byline most likely promotional and the fourth sources is an interview the fifth is nothing to write home about. Calyx2s ( talk) 14:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: An analysis of sources would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts ( talk/ contributions) 00:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Delete. The subject fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. A Google search of her doesn't show her being discussed in reliable secondary sources. The Native and Culture Custodian sources are both interviews (primary sources) and cannot be used to establish notability. Career wise, the subject has not released notable songs or albums. It feels like she is still an up-and-coming disc jockey in the Nigerian music industry. I also feel like this is a case of WP:TOOSOON.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 15:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Kayden Kiewit

Kayden Kiewit (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Zeilinga Strydom

Zeilinga Strydom (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. A possible redirect seems to be List of South Africa national under-18 rugby union team players. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:53, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Cal Smid

Cal Smid (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Rugby union, and South Africa. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Again looks like a case of WP:TOOSOON on my part, when the guidelines were in the process of being changed. There is this but another source or two would still be required, again player hasn't really kicked on to create more coverage, and no suitable redirect. Rugbyfan22 ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete‎. ✗ plicit 00:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Dameon Venter

Dameon Venter (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. The closes to WP:SIGCOV that came up in my searches was this piece. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Rugby union, and South Africa. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Probably was a case of WP:TOOSOON on creation, while the guidelines were in process of being changed also. There's lots of coverage, but I don't think any of it reaches WP:GNG levels if I'm honest, and his career hasn't really kicked on, so delete as there's no redirect. Rugbyfan22 ( talk) 09:17, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Agreeing with other votes - does not meet WP:GNG - insufficiently notable. WmLawson ( talk) 00:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply
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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. ✗ plicit 00:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Bradley Thain

Bradley Thain (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I am unable to find enough coverage of the subject, a South African rugby union player, to meet WP:GNG. The closes to WP:SIGCOV that came up in my searches was this transactional announcement. JTtheOG ( talk) 00:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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