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The result was speedy delete. This is A7-able as a BLP that makes no effort to establish notability.
ST47 (
talk) 00:58, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - Non-notable; no references; and as above, cannot find sources. As an unreferenced
WP:BLP should not have found its way to mainspace.
Eagleash (
talk) 00:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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A clear case of
WP:TOOSOON. Subject doesn't satisfy
WP:BIO, there aren't any in depth reliable sources. Most probably will be notable but suggest waiting at least a couple of years
Ceethekreator (
talk) 22:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete as it seems
WP:TOOSOON at this stage with no prominent roles in notable productions (having Wikipedia articles) and most of the sources in the article are from YouTube. She may well be notable in the future when an article may be created then, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 18:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete. It looks like her career is starting to get traction with the award win at the film festival and several upcoming larger roles. At this point, she just doesn't have the RS to meet
WP:SIGCOV. It can always be recreated later after more reviews of her performances are made.
4meter4 (
talk) 21:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete Yeah, um... no indication of notability here.ZXCVBNM (
TALK) 13:06, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Swamp Thing. It's a valid search term, and this target provides sufficient detail.
Argento Surfer (
talk) 16:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Swamp Thing - There are a few independent sources that mention the Parliament, mostly in regards to analysis of Alan Moore's writing. But, the mentions of the Parliament are brief, and do not really go beyond just a plot summary of what it was in the narrative of the Swamp Thing, which is not enough to support an independent article. That said, as a major part of the mythology of the character, and as it is already described in the target article, a redirect to the main Swamp Thing article would make sense as a valid search term.
Rorshacma (
talk) 17:04, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Redirect to
Ender's Game (novel series). As a major element of a notable book series, it is, at the very least, a plausible search term. Merging can be performed as necessary, though as this current article is sourced only to quotes from the books, I'm not sure how much here is worth really transferring over.
Rorshacma (
talk) 16:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. MBisanztalk 02:44, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The subject is insufficiently notable within his field. Almost all of the information is about the singer as a person and not as a singer -- such as where he lived and which Hasidic sect he used to belong to vs what he belongs to now, or attempting to highlight his success and notability based on the fact that he has a single out -- this does not make someone notable. Furthermore, information is from poorly substantiated website sources almost entirely relying on the singer's submitted CV to the sources in question. DRosenbach(
Talk |
Contribs) 20:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment The article clearly lists multiple albums and singles to his credit, so the point about a single being out seems irrelevant.
StonyBrook (
talk) 06:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep Passes
WP:SINGER: Multiple sources independent of the subject have reported about him, it being understandable that some (not all) of the sources are in Hebrew, which takes nothing away from the notability; it is being reported he is the 'heir to
Mordechai Ben David', a bold claim which I don't believe would be thrown around if there were no basis for it, which bolsters the impression that this isn't just another
flash-in-the-pan Hasidic singer.
StonyBrook (
talk) 06:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep Seems to pass
WP:SINGER : "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself." Article gives many sources which seem to show enough of a level of notability.
Adam Bernstein (
talk) 09:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:44, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Tagged for notability since 2010. Survived PROD in 2011 but I can't find anything to indicate notability.
Mccapra (
talk) 20:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - The subject is not notable per
WP:GNG. -
MA Javadi (
talk) 23:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - No significant coverage.
Expertwikiguy (
talk) 01:58, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Fails
WP:NSONG. No article for the artist, which isn't a reason in itself to delete this article, but there is literally nothing online about this song other than links to YouTube videos and online record stores and streaming websites, none of which confer notability. Might be
WP:TOOSOON and it's possible that either the artist or their forthcoming EP will be notable enough for an article, but right now there's nothing to support this song.
Richard3120 (
talk) 20:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: has now been speedily deleted under A9, so this AfD may be closed.
Richard3120 (
talk) 23:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. I will also be performing the move for which there is consensus as part of this discussion.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 03:24, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
This is a bit complicated, so bear with me. I was creating a short article today in response to a requested article at the rugby union wiki project for a player called
Justin Collins (rugby union). We already have an article at
Justin Collins for a different rugby league player (for the uninitiated, rugby union and rugby league are similar in name and practice but are actually entirely separate sports).
After completing the article, I took a closer look at the rugby league article and noticed that several facts about the rugby union player seem to have been inserted into the rugby league article, such as the birth date, birth place and physical dimensions. There are several confusing similarities between these two subjects: they both have the same name, they are both Australian by birth (though the rugby union player moved to New Zealand when he was 10 and has been there ever since); they both play a similar sport. I believe this has led to facts about the rugby union player being inserted in the rugby league player article without the authors realising what they were doing, creating a very confusing situation.
When I tried to look for some other sources to try and untangle this mess and find the real information for the rugby league article, I couldn’t find any reliable sources relating to the rugby league player. If he’s played for Hull FC as the article says then he would be notable if that were verifiable, but since I can’t verify it he fails the
WP:GNG.
ElAhrairahinspect damage⁄
berate 20:00, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I didn't realise that - lack of rugby league knowledge shining through. I agree with your suggestion. I'm inclined to believe the bio data relates to the rugby union player, the sources look solid.
ElAhrairahinspect damage⁄
berate 07:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep but move. The rugby league player is clearly notable and clearly a different person from the rugby union player. It's also clear that he goes by the name Steve, so the page should be moved to
Steve Collins (rugby league). --
Mkativerata (
talk) 10:08, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep but move to
Steve Collins (rugby league). There was some confusion in my mind when I initiated Justin Collins article this time last year; as the rugby league player appears to be known as both Justin and Steve in the hullfc.com reference, but apparently nowhere else. The date/place of birth appeared reasonable, as Tasmania is an island state of Australia not New Zealand, and so it gave initial credence to the date/place of birth being for the Australian rugby league player rather than the New Zealand rugby union player, but it now seems more likely to be conflated. I think we can all agree that neither the rugby league player or the rugby union player are;
Justin Lee Collins. Thanks to @
Boleyn: for directing me here.
DynamoDegsy (
talk) 20:28, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks for weighing in here. Very easy to get those two mixed up! I think the sources for the bio information of the rugby union player look pretty solid, so I've removed that information from the league article if that's ok.
ElAhrairahinspect damage⁄
berate 17:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was Speedy Delete. The article has already been deleted through CSD while the discussion remained on AfD.
Utopes (
talk) 00:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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I can't find any sources because the schools' website and pages where people review schools. It is mentioned a few time in articles about the town, but has no significant coverage. —
Naddruf (
talk ~
contribs) 19:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. Per reasons and potential sources to improve the article cited by
Tedder.
Grand'mere Eugene (
talk) 10:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment - I have added content and citations that I believe adequately establish notability for this stub article.
Grand'mere Eugene (
talk) 19:27, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep Following the additions by
Grand'mere Eugene, I then went and made a number of changes and additions such as adding an Infobox, NCES stats, expanded history, categories etc - see
this diff (added logo on next edit) No longer a stub now
Steven (Editor) (
talk) 05:29, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep I had looked at the article shortly after the AfD was created and saw an article that merited retention, but needed to be expanded with reliably and verifiably sourced material. That standard has been met with the article as it currently stands.
Alansohn (
talk) 12:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:43, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. Fails
WP:GNG because of lack of RS.
4meter4 (
talk) 21:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:43, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Apparently non-notable actor. His most significant role appears to have been in
Severance (film). Although he has appeared in other notable films, as far as I can tell his roles were bit-parts which do not help him qualify for
WP:NACTOR criterion 1. I see no evidence that the other two criteria are met. I can't find coverage in online-searchable RSs that is more than routine mentions. Severence is discussed in
this book but little is said about him; similarly
this news article is really about a film he produced. So I don't think he meets the
WP:GNG either. I don't see an obvious target for a redirect.
Wham2001 (
talk) 18:45, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete. Another fictional entry based on nothing but comic books.
Drmies (
talk) 20:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect At the very least. Why would we delete this rather than redirect,
TTN? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 23:12, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The content is all in-universe, so there is no need to merge. I have no objection to a new redirect after deletion, but I honestly think it's pointless considering the scope of DC's completely literal tens of thousands of characters.
TTN (
talk) 23:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:42, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment - Not only is this nothing but completely in-universe summaries sourced only to the works of fiction themselves, but a whole lot of this is
WP:SYNTH and
WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, with some of it actually not even being correct. I have not yet looked to see if there are any actual legitimate, secondary sources that discuss vampires in King's works as a whole (as opposed to just on individual vampires like
Kurt Barlow) in more than just terms of plot summary that would give the topic notability, but even if there are, the vast bulk of the current article needs to be removed and completely re-written.
Rorshacma (
talk) 19:12, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete - After actually looking for sources, I haven't found enough on the topic that would support an article. There are plenty of sources on individual works of King's that feature vampires (largely
Salem's Lot and
American Vampire), but I have only found one actually decent source that discusses the concept of vampires in his work as a whole, that also features in-depth analysis that goes beyond plot summary, which is
here. While it, alone, is a great source, its the only one I was able to find. Others, like
this one, looked promising at first, as it seemed to have a whole essay on the subject, but then actually reading the essay itself revealed that its about vampires in fiction in general, barely mentions Stephen King's work, and when it does, only talks about Salem's Lot. So, in the end, there was only the one, good source, that talks about Stephen King's use of vampires as a whole, which is not enough. All the other sources are discussions about individual books or stories on their own, so combining them to support this article would just be
WP:SYNTH.
Rorshacma (
talk) 19:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Non-notable. What sources are available are name drops. Fails WP:BIO and WP:SIGCOV. Not independent or in-depth scope_creepTalk 17:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The article is terrible, a resume stub, and more than half the sources need to be thrown out--primary, casual mentions, etc. But he's listed and gets a few sentences in that Oxford Handbook, and that should tip him over the edge. I'm going with weak keep.
Drmies (
talk) 20:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes substantial pruning of sources is needed, but recent additions have established notability. The article just needs time and effort for improvements. keepYaxu (
talk) 22:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep, on the weak side, as above. The Oxford Handbook of Algorithmic Music has a solid paragraph. He's quoted bythe British Library blog
here.
The Times mentions him here but I cannot get past the paywall to see in what depth. Minor
coverage in MixMag. There are a few others, which overall mean he's slightly notable.
ThatMontrealIP (
talk) 23:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment Well spotted, well done. Withdrawn. scope_creepTalk 00:01, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Speedy Keep Just one of the biggest murder investigations in the UK, and an incident revealing issues of port crossings from Europe to the UK a week before Brexit.
Yeah, no notability whatsoever.
Kingsif (
talk) 17:26, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep I am confused on why you are citing
WP:RECENTISM as the very section says "Just wait and see. Remember
there is no deadline, and
consensus can change later on. Editors writing today do not have a historical perspective on today's events, and
should not pretend to have a crystal ball. This is especially true during a news spike, when there is mass interest to create and update articles on a current event, regardless of whether it may be historically significant later on. Also, editors updating an article affected by a current event may not necessarily be the same ones participating months (or even years) later in the clean-up and maintenance of the page. Above all else, editors should avoid getting into
edit wars or contentious deletion discussions when trying to deal with recentism." As in this is meant to be used for articles that are slanted towards recent events later down the line. As for
WP:NOTNEWS, a large death count has led to broad coverage. I would wait at least a week before revisiting deletion here. -
Knowledgekid87 (
talk) 17:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Snow keep - close this AfD due to being ridiculous. An organised, international gang killed 39 people together. This is similar to the
2000 Dover incident - both are very historically notable.
Jim Michael (
talk) 17:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep This is a definite keep. There are organized crime implications that are probably international.
50.111.3.59 (
talk) 17:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep - too early to tell about lasting notability. all I know is that it is notable now per WP;GNG.
BabbaQ (
talk) 18:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was no consensus. MBisanztalk 02:42, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Bottom line is that this is a likely
WP:FRINGE concept (ethnic group) that fails
WP:GNG. This group has been discussed by amateur scholar
Władysław Szulist (who has no pl wikipedia article, and is likely not notable). As far as I can tell (and I search for Polish term for this group too), nobody else has discussed this ethnic group, and the terms are not even used in passing and his work is virtually uncited. The publications are also very obscure: one book published by local museum, and one article is obscure Polish language minor academic journal. As such, this seems like a fringe theory - there is no academic consensus that this group exists (the few other sources used in the article are even worse, like someone's family's homepage). At best this may deserve a sentence or two in
Kaszubians#Diaspora, so a soft delete and merge might be an option, through I am still unsure if Szulist work is reliable enough to be cited (it's rather borderline). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 13:58, 14 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete we do not need articles advancing fringe theories on ethnicity.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 20:32, 19 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. The term is used in passing in Chicago Churches and Synagogues: An Architectural Pilgrimage,George Lane, Loyola University Press, 1981; A Kashubian idiolect in the United States by Jan Louis Perkowski, Indiana University Press, 1969; Polish Genealogical Society of Wisconsin, 1995, page 5; and The Prayer of St. Hyacinth Parish, Detroit, Michigan ; Michael A. Krʹolewski, St. Hyacinth Parish, 1984. Ethnicities are generally notable.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:43, 22 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ミラP 17:01, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep If
Kashubians is deemed to be an encyclopedic topic, then this should logically be kept as an appropriate
WP:SPINOFF.
StonyBrook (
talk) 06:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Deleted per G5.
Drmies (
talk) 20:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Blatantly promotional. Declined G11 (for some reason) and moved to draft, then moved back by a sock with no improvement. DePRODed by an anonymous account that added promotional sources only covering the topic in a passing matter.
Etzedek24(
I'll talk at ya) (
Check my track record) 16:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The G11 was declined and the article moved back to draft space--that's a good enough reason. But G5 applies here, given the history.
Drmies (
talk) 20:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
RL0919 (
talk) 17:09, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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RL0919 (
talk) 15:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:40, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Fails
WP:MUSICBIO,
WP:BIO,
WP:SIGCOV. Low fan count on Youtube. It has a combination of borderline notability and clear promotionalism, including the sale of music on WP. scope_creepTalk 12:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC) scope_creepTalk 12:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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RL0919 (
talk) 15:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment - he's not really notable except for working with other bands. Can this be merged or redirected?
Bearian (
talk) 21:11, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Hi Bearian, could do. I see it has been open for ages. I usually trust your judgement but I'm not doing the work for merge and I don't think there is anybody available, hence the lack of discussion. I propose a redirect. It would seem to be the sensible approach. scope_creepTalk 21:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. Fails
WP:SIGCOV. There really isn't an obvious redirect because he has mainly worked as a session musician with a variety of groups. Redirecting to anyone is not really helpful.
4meter4 (
talk) 22:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was soft delete.
WP:REFUND applies. No previous deletion attempts and no objections (or other commentary) after two weeks.
RL0919 (
talk) 17:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
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The result was delete.
Drmies (
talk) 20:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 15:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. The website garnered only minor and fleeting attention. There doesn't appear to be any significant coverage to establish notability.
Slideshow Bob (
talk) 18:02, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
RL0919 (
talk) 17:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
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Delete - private school now closed, difficult to write a full article.
Bearian (
talk) 21:14, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. NACADEMIC explicitly suggests it is an alternative to GNG - however it still requires verifiable evidence. Several editors have commented, to varying degrees, that Ansari, might be notable under NACADEMIC but none have attempted to show this with verifiable evidence. As such the consensus of those editors suggesting Ansari is not notable holds.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 02:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)reply
This Article on Zoe Ansari, is an important addition to Wikipedia. I will highly appreciate if you give me some time to complete this article. This article should not be deleted. Kindly read the Progressive Writer's movement page. His name was already there but no page linking to it. He was a great writer and translator. It is because of him the south Asian community got a better introduction with Russian literature and Literary criticism. Thanks in anticipation.
Khadem Hussain, India. (
talk) 14:42, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
We need some RS saying all this, I found none.
Slatersteven (
talk) 14:45, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment I have found one source, an article in Pakistaniaat: A Journal of Pakistan Studies, which compares Ansari's translation of Russian texts with another Urdu translation. There are some other English language sources which have some information about him or his work. I think there are likely to be more sources about him in Urdu, though. Some of the references in the Urdu Wikipedia article might be useful (though the first, although published in a reliable source, is an obituary/reflection on his death by someone who knew him well, and probably doesn't meet WP:RS requirements). Perhaps there are other obituaries, however, and certainly there are more sources than are currently in the article.
RebeccaGreen (
talk) 17:51, 22 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 15:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete no notability; poor sources.
Strandvue (
talk) 00:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Do not Delete. The article definitely needs rigorous work, but it does not deserve to be deleted. I am trying to find out details of his PhD as well. I have just added a line about his contribution to the study of an Indian-Persian Poet. Zoe Ansari is a figure, who is overlooked despite his encyclopaedic contributions. Instead of a discussion on deletion, there should a discussion on improving this article. Thanks to all you senior editors.
Khademhussain (
talk) 15:47, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
You say it yourself, he has been overlooked, we have articles on people who have not been overlooked.
Slatersteven (
talk) 17:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I am not sure what you think this proves.
Slatersteven (
talk) 18:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
What I mean is. Simply producing a small biographical account on here, wouldn't hurt. It will be beneficial to those who are researches and students of both Urdu and Russian literature or comparative literature or world literature. Plus, his urdu page already exists, so I see no reason, to delete this, small account. (to be improved of course)
Khademhussain (
talk) 18:25, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I understand that, I read
wp:rs. I have since then updated the article and added various RS. The link I sent above is of an urdu poet who's page is on Wikipedia and he has no notability. That page should be deleted.
Khademhussain (
talk) 19:16, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Maybe, but that is irrelevant here.
Slatersteven (
talk) 19:21, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Definitely, agreed. What do you think of the
Zoe Ansari added references now?
Khademhussain (
talk) 19:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
In reverse order
A WIND OF CHANGE, cannot check.
"The Debate on Amir Khusrau's "Inventions" in Hindustani Music", Journal of the Indian Musicological Society cannot check.
Music and Society in North India: From the Mughals to the Mutiny. cannot check
But as they are not about him, and you give the full article page numbers (and in one case the fist page does not mention him) I cannot help but wonder of these are all just passing mentions.
http://nyazamana.com is a review, so might be OK, but I see no byline by anyone whose view might be notable, and may be a comments page.
Youtube is not an RS.
Can you link to two in depth RS about him here on the AFD?
Slatersteven (
talk) 09:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment I am finding a lot of academic peer reviewed journal articles, doctoral theses, and academic books that cite Zoe Ansari. I am not finding any sources about Zoe Ansari. The number of publications citing the author though make me wonder if he might pass
WP:NACADEMIC.
4meter4 (
talk) 22:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep I just did a cursory search through Google Books. This writer is mentioned many times in scholarly texts related to the literature and politics of South Asia. This article definitely needs to be re-worked, preferably by an expert on the subject.
Lovelylinda1980 (
talk) 22:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
Edit: all of the sources I can access have been put in the table. Still not seeing the significant coverage required to be considered notable. SITH(talk) 12:30, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
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Fails
WP:NALBUM, having no sources at all, and no reliable sources found online, just the usual non-RS sites for metal bands such as Spirit of Metal and Metal Archives. All the articles related to the band were recently created by a SPA and have borderline notability, but this fails outright without any sources. Redirect not really an option as the EP name is the same as the band.
Richard3120 (
talk) 15:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete due to a lack of coverage in third-party, reliable sources. I agree that a redirect would probably be quite silly as a person who starts to enter the title into the search bar would easily be able to find the article on the band before they type out the (EP) part.
Aoba47 (
talk) 15:42, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete This article clearly fails the notability test for albums but also general notability. There just isn't anything here to make an encyclopedia article out of.
Lovelylinda1980 (
talk) 22:13, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete Trivial. No independent sources.
Lard Almighty (
talk) 15:05, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Consensus that content is purely in-universe without showing notability, as well as being an unneeded content fork from the individual/series articles.
Nosebagbear (
talk) 15:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Non-notable collection of in-universe
WP:PLOT only details. The details about one planet being in the top ten of naming a celestial body are completely trivial. There is a main series article and five novel articles, so there should be no issue describing the necessary context of the relevant locations in each individual page.
TTN (
talk) 13:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete Before looking at the state of the article I was thinking that maybe one or two of these had potential, but not after looking at it. I don't see anything that can be rescued to the series pages' that isn't already covered there in the narrative. --
Masem (
t) 14:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: No one will take up the challenge to repair this should it be deleted. The legacy of this deletion will be a swarm of redlinks. Serendipodous 11:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
It would need a full rewrite regardless to comply with Wikipedia standards. But surely fine details about the planets of a fictional work are not super necessary to understand that work.ZXCVBNM (
TALK) 12:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:38, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
List of in-universe
WP:PLOT only details with no sources to establish notability. There's some 40+ novels in these series, along with three individual series pages. That is plenty to summarize the proper context of the main locations of each setting and the relevant locations of each individual novel.
TTN (
talk) 13:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete- I actually quite like the Foundation series, but this is vast, sprawling, unsourced fancruft that belongs on a Wikia.
ReykYO! 18:15, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete Per nom and Reyk.ZXCVBNM (
TALK) 19:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Enough with the fictional planets lists already!
Clarityfiend (
talk) 08:10, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect to the article for the series. Some of the information might be merged over there if not already.
DreamFocus 15:32, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was Draftify.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 03:26, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
PROD contested by article creator, no reason given. Fails
WP:GNG (no significant coverage) and
WP:NFOOTBALL (has never played in a
fully-professional league and doesn't look like doing so any time soon). Article should be deleted; can be restored if/when he is notable.
GiantSnowman 12:13, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.
GiantSnowman 12:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Drinan is on a professional contract in a professional league in Sweden at the moment. He's on loan from Ipswich Town where he's also on a professional contract and has been on other pro contracts at Waterford and Cork. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Supersaints2014 (
talk •
contribs)
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Drafity He might be in a professional team which doesn't mean automatically make it as a Wikipedia page. Looking through the references, I see that most of them are basically the norm with transfers and match reports so you can't really deemed to be notable there. For me I would say to move it to draft as the Superettan season is finishing up and we will see what Ipswich Town do with this player.
HawkAussie (
talk) 23:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Clarification Requested: This person seems to have appeared in games for teams in the League of Ireland and in Superettan. This would seem to qualify under NFOOTBALL, assuming those leagues count as "fully professional". Are these leagues not "fully professional"?
Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 01:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: @
Eggishorn:WP:FPL states that the Superettan and the League of Ireland is not a professional league which would have the player fail due to that. But because they are contracted to Ipswich Town which is in the English Championship that is why I voted for drafity.
HawkAussie (
talk) 02:00, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
In that case, I agree that Draftify is the correct action. Thank you, @
HawkAussie:, for the information.
Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 02:08, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Little-known film with no remarkable actors. Questionable sources also found within article, not sure if the award is good enough to prove notability? Suspected originally created by film creator as a way of self-promotion. Nightfury 10:01, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. I wish the folks behind this film the best of luck, but there's just not sufficient coverage for notability (as Wikipedia defines it). Neither of the film festival awards are sufficient to confer notability. They are both small, recently established festivals (2 years each), with little external attention. CIFF in particular openly advertises the large number of award categories as a draw for filmmakers to enter films into competition there (because that makes a larger percentage of the field into winners, of course), and the award at Fameus is effectively a third place award. These do not satisfy
NFILM #3. And beyond the minor festivals, the closest thing to a reliable source is
this snippet of an article, which is really just a vehicle for the trailer. I can't find any full reviews in the industry media, just a scant handful of user-submitted opinions that don't meet project standards.
Squeamish Ossifrage (
talk) 21:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - I see a lot of press releases and routine industry coverage, but not much of the sort needed for
WP:CORPDEPTH. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 02:36, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. MBisanztalk 02:37, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment:
Meeanaya what is your
WP:BEFORE assessment of the discussion and the sources identified in the previous AfD which led to its Keep conclusion?
AllyD (
talk) 17:33, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't see why this AfD should succeed where the last one failed. The sourcing is decent enough. Keep.
Drmies (
talk) 20:55, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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article has been tagged with "may not meet notability guideline" since 2012. So let's have the discussion - what makes him notable enough for a Wikipedia article?
Quakewoody (
talk) 15:05, 8 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep - easily passes
my standards for notable lawyers: lauded in a
reliable source as a "having a reputation" in his field, trustee of major charities, "service on a major bar association committee or section", etc. I found
this list that mentions his bar presidency.
Bearian (
talk) 19:26, 9 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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feminist (
talk) 02:07, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak keep a bit more work is needed it references--
Dreerwin (
talk) 03:42, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:10, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak keep Obituaries do count as RS when they are journalist written and unpaid for, which is the case here. The substantial obit in the Los Angeles Times is compelling, and the fact that other newspapers chose to print the obit or write their own on a national scale is further evidence that this is a notable person. This is enough coverage to just barely meet
WP:GNG.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:58, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was merge to
Nivedita Menon. This is, as
Madness points out, a difficult nomination to close. XfD, though seeking a generation of consensus, is not a vote, and assertions of notability that fall short of the requirement of in-depth coverage in multiple independent sources, or assertions that notability will be discovered in the future can not be weighed in favor of a subject. With respect to
WBG's concern that BLPs should not point to other BLPs, that is a valid concern, but the subject in this case is already mentioned in the proposed target article, and asserted familial relationship between the BLPs does not appear to be in controversy. Even if there were no discussion here, the proposed target article would be the natural redirect target for the term. Of course, this close is without prejudice to the article being restored should sufficient sources be found.
bd2412T 20:24, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete does not meet the general notability guidelines.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep I added a little more information about her activism and her artistic work (film and standup). She passes GNG.
Megalibrarygirl (
talk) 20:54, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
GNG necessitates multiple instances of significant coverage. She gets a host of trivial mentions (mainly as general acknowledgments of help in scholarly publications) but barring an interview over a city-supplementary of the Hindu (
which FWIW, are almost always paid-for), am not seeing remotely anything like that. FWIW, Plainspeak ain't a RS. You are requested to provide the specific sources that lends to GNG and quote the exact passages.
∯WBGconverse 06:38, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
LiveMint is an RS. The Hindu is an RS (and unless you can definitively show this one was paid, then don't say it was.) Why do you feel that Plainspeak not an RS? It's a digital magazine with submission guidelines, etc. It's not a blog. All of her "mentions" in scholarly publications are pretty significant indicating a person that's respected in her field. All put together add up to GNG.
Megalibrarygirl (
talk) 23:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
You can't ever definitely prove that something was paid (follow the link, in case you thought that it was just me!) but interviews/coverage in metro supplements are almost-always paid (and they don't really carry colorful banners proclaiming they are paid).
Pray provide some of those significant mentions in scholarly sources. (Quote the paragraphs, please.)
The Mint (merely) has a review of their work.
∯WBGconverse 13:18, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Preferably Merge to
Nivedita Menon and mention there in the family section. The problem here is largely because the few articles in (reliable) Indian media are all interviews. Not that I have anything against interviews, but I think we should not use them for notability since it is not really a third person's view. Some of the other sources like Plainspeak are not really reliable sources, it is actually the website of an NGO. I have known about Pramada Menon's work since a while and she has done some good work; unfortunately most of it is behind the scenes which is perhaps not flashy or sensational enough to be covered in media. There is a good chance though that in the coming years there could be coverage about their work. Perhaps a good solution right now would be to merge some of the information into the article of
Nivedita Menon under the family section and not outright delete the article. I cannot support an outright keep here, so a merge would be best--
DreamLinker (
talk) 08:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Agree on all aspects. But, am very skeptical about redirecting BLPs to other BLPs ...
∯WBGconverse 13:27, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak keep per the work done by Megalibrarygirl, which seems to point a bit more towards notability. DreamLinker's points, too, are solid, making this a close and difficult decision. MadnessDarkness 23:11, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep It may not fulfill the notability issues for now, but it can improved in the coming days. It can be further expanded and the article is available in other languages as well. Despite the issues, I would still prefer to keep this.
Abishe (
talk) 14:19, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
You might take a look at
WP:AADD. Thanks for saying It may not fulfill the notability issues for now; once she fulfills, we can recreate her article
for we are not a crystal-ball.
∯WBGconverse 15:07, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Consensus that individual isn't notable, including a !vote after the addition of more info
Nosebagbear (
talk) 11:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Subject is a American rapper. A
WP:BEFORE found only sources from Pinterest, Soundcrowd, Spotify, social media and noting about her on indepedent, reliable sources to indicate she passes
WP:GNG or
WP:MUSICBIO.
CASSIOPEIA(
talk) 10:55, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
RL0919 (
talk) 11:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Last AFD closed as withdrawn and
WP:G12 tagged, but the creator is going through OTRS to donate the material, so bringing it back here. ~~ OxonAlex- talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete There are a large number of issues with this article, including
WP:PROMO, and with
WP:YOUNGATH I don't think we typically include articles about youth school sports clubs.
SportingFlyerT·C 10:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep My article merely discusses the history of a football team and its accomplishments. I don't understand how this may be considered advertising or promoting. As for notoriety, there are several references listed to prove the validity of my article. A comment was made about generally not hosting material about "youth sports." My article focuses on the sport of football, regardless of its level of competition. Please reconsider instating my article. Another interesting fact, it is my understanding that this website is in need of art or graphic designs. I can contribute a vast amount of this work through my article, if given the opportunity. Is history not one of the top subjects on this site? That is all I wanted to share in this community.
BigRed66 (
talk) 16:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Create a fan website page for it on your own or ask the school if you can contribute to their website.
tedder (
talk) 09:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment Not optimum at all; there are nine other Lakewood High Schools in the United States, and we aren't going to redirect to one while cutting those other nine out. Nate•(
chatter) 20:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Good point. With such a common school name, I guess there's no logical redirect target.
Ejgreen77 (
talk) 06:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. Perhaps a few sentences can be merged into the main article. I'm not confident a redirect is even necessary.
tedder (
talk) 09:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. Promotional piece, not notable separate from Lakewood High School.
Grand'mere Eugene (
talk) 10:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete Not notable sports team.
WP:PROMO also applies.
...William, is the complaint department really on
the roof? 13:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete clearly non-notable team. The sentence "The purpose of this newest web site is to bring to the forefront the proud tradition and history of Lancer football" also suggests a lack of understanding of the concept/purpose of Wikipedia --
ChrisTheDude (
talk) 14:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment "Notability" here is defined as accomplishment recognition, and clearly there are notable professional alumni listed in the article. This is far from a promotional piece. It merely focuses on the history and achievements of a football team. If it's a simple phrase about a proud tradition, it can be removed.
BigRed66 (
talk) 02:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately, almost the entire article is full of
weasel words and promotional language, it would need a full rewrite to conform to Wikipedia's writing standards. The fact that notable professional athletes played for this team when they were children is not enough to merit inclusion on this website (per
WP:NTEAM). Eagles24/7(C) 02:21, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Eagles247: Would you mind directing me to an example of what is an acceptable sports team article? Almost all of the current football articles hosted here mention an enormous amount of history, which is what I'm trying to do with my piece.
BigRed66 (
talk) 02:32, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The history isn't the problem, it's the notability of the actual subject being described as well as the language used in general.
Maryland Terrapins football, 1892–1946 is recognized as a
good article on Wikipedia if you are looking for an example of encyclopedic writing practices. I've also added some templates in this article to highlight sentences that use
weasel words. Eagles24/7(C) 02:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Eagles247: I noticed the highlights. Thanks for pointing them out. I'll have a look at Maryland's page for more insite.
BigRed66 (
talk) 03:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Just to make clear, simply re-writing the article (and, as commented above, it would require a near-total re-write if kept) will not in and of itself resolve the major problem, which is the notability of the subject. WP's notability guidelines specifically state the following: "High school and pre-high school athletes are notable only if they have received substantial and prolonged coverage that is (1) independent of the subject and (2) clearly goes beyond routine coverage." So you would need to be able to demonstrate that the team has received extensive coverage in independent news media, books, etc, which goes beyond simply noting the team's results. If such coverage doesn't exist then I don't think there's any chance of the article being kept --
ChrisTheDude (
talk) 19:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
ChrisTheDude: You mentioned media coverage. I've listed several references to validate that point. Can you clarify what you mean by "routine coverage?" The updated article mentions extensive coverage of the team's coach, which is independent of the subject I would say.
BigRed66 (
talk) 21:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
To which reference(s) do you refer? I can't see any references currently in the article which contain "extensive coverage of the team's coach". And to answer your question, routine coverage in the context of sport essentially mentions reporting on games. So if a newspaper runs a short report on each of the team's games the following morning, that's routine coverage. So there needs to be evidence of coverage more in-depth than that --
ChrisTheDude (
talk) 22:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment@
BigRed66: You have clearly spent lots of time researching and writing about the Lakewood football team, and your passion for your subject is obvious. I respect your sportscaster perspective, with the history laid out almost like a play-by-play report. For Wikipedia writing, however, it fails on several important counts: first, and most importantly, the subject matter fails at the elemental level because we do not publish articles about young athletes unless their coverage in reliable sources is beyond routine. Think sources like Sports Illustrated,Sporting News. ESPN Magazine, and not just mentions on a list, but significant coverage. When was the last time any of those publications covered a high school team? They might cover an outstanding individual high schooler, such as
LeBron James, or other
prep-to-pro player, but high school teams very rarely will make the cut. Secondly, the article lacks an encyclopedic tone, because it reflects your passion for your team, written almost like the second broadcaster in the booth who provides interesting commentary on the action. By contrast, the tone of the encyclopedia is more subdued, less flashy, less hyperbolic. Think dull as dirt, without any promotional verbiage whatsoever. If you want to contribute to
Lakewood High School (California), consider adding an "External link" to your website at the bottom of that article. As writers and editors, we appreciate your effort, but in this instance you have just missed the mark entirely. —
Grand'mere Eugene (
talk) 00:45, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, and do not redirect. The creator of this clearly worked very hard on this and should look to finding a host, but we are specifically
not a website host. Oh, and
Grand'mere Eugene, we specially discourage adding links to pages like this in
school article guidelines. Sorry. An encyclopedia article is built of information paraphrased from reliable secondary sources. There are only a couple articles on high school football programs in the US. These cover schools that have programs 125 + years old that have been the subject of multiple full length books.
John from Idegon (
talk) 20:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 10:16, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Al-Anwar Club, I don't know if a redirect is necessary, seems rather generic in name.
Govvy (
talk) 10:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep it's too early to delete it . I already add source and i will adding more media just waiting to visit the place.
Slayym (
talk) 16:23, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
RL0919 (
talk) 11:53, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Poorly sourced BLP. Fails GNG, BASIC, ANYBIO, and BLP. Also, may be a
WP:COATRACK to publicize negative information. I removed poorly sourced negative BLP material - see diff here -
[1]Steve Quinn (
talk) 09:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. MBisanztalk 02:35, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Notability is questionable, most of the appearance are special guests, lacks significant discussion of the subject in multiple reliable sources, fails
WP:GNG.
Meeanaya (
talk) 06:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: I never know what to do about articles on Colombian radio and TV "personalities"... most of them are similar to this one, in that you can find sources for the university studies and internship mentioned in the lead
[2] her two husbands and children, and living and working in Miami
[3],
[4] or her entry into the world of YouTubers
[5]. All the sources in the article are reliable ones, mostly well-established national newspapers. Ms. Maya is certainly a well known personality in Colombia, but I understand the nominator's concerns that despite the sources the article just adds up to a lot of fluff – sadly, this is exactly the depth of reporting you will get in Colombia for most people involved in the entertainment business, and there are dozens of articles on Colombian TV presenters and soap opera stars which will never be any better than this one, because it's all on the level of Hello! magazine. But there's no question that the sources in the article and mentioned above are reliable ones.
Richard3120 (
talk) 12:22, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep as there is significant reliable sources coverage directly about her as detailed above. While she does not pass
WP:NACTOR she found fame as a model and that is where the main claims of significance are, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 18:18, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep per Atlantic306.
4meter4 (
talk) 20:12, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. While there is a lack of clarity as to the existence of the film, there is clear consensus that it lacks notability
Nosebagbear (
talk) 11:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, I think? This is a weird one. It
completed production in 2011. Varietyannounced plans in 2012 to package distribution with another Cameron Romero / Tom Sizemore film, Auteur. And then... not much. Auteur was picked up for distribution and
released in 2014, although I'm not super confident that it's notable either. My guess is that the package deal with Radical didn't get traction with the eventual Auteur distributor (Music Video Distributors). IMDb claims a 2017 release date for Radical without any sort of sourcing or confirmation; FilmAffinity claims a 2011 release date with no more evidence... but I'm pretty sure that one is just wrong. In any case, and despite the obnoxiously false-positive-laden title, I can't find any reliable reviews of this film or other reportage following the 2011 quick takes. I think the nominator was right to suspect that this was never actually released, and I think equally correct that it isn't notable. It might be worth a redirect and quick mention in
Cameron Romero's article, except we don't have one of those.
Squeamish Ossifrage (
talk) 21:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete as whether or not it has been released there is a lack of coverage, for example there are no external reviews at IMDb and no entry at all at Rotten Tomatoes, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 18:13, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. MBisanztalk 02:35, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep Plenty of
WP:RS, significantly covering the subject to pass
WP:GNG. Just look at the list of references. I cleaned up the page a while ago so it is less promotional, but I don't see why this fails
WP:NCORP. Thanks,
Willbb234Talk (please {{
ping}} me in replies) 08:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: I made up my mind to write an article about Armoured One after seeing its team being invited on many News shows to discuss on school shootings and how to deal with it. The article is thoroughly cited and meets the
WP:GNG,
WP:RS — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Abdul.kanchwala (
talk •
contribs) 14:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. Not sure why this was nominated for deletion under this rationale as the article contains plenty of sources to meet
WP:SIGCOV.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete as original research.
Mccapra (
talk) 11:34, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge to the article on the town. The information will need a source; ref 2 would appearto be suchasource. The links do not work, but that does not mean that plain information such as this is not sourceable. We do not remove articles because of dead links unless we are sure there is no other possible source . . DGG (
talk ) 21:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge to the article on the town per DGG.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete original research.
Mccapra (
talk) 11:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete I would have voted merge to the village but the article is Original Research without any reference. Appears that squares with this name are in several Gujarati cities.
[6] In any case this does not appear to merit a seperate article, at best a paragraph in the village article, but a reliable source will still be needed. --DBigXrayᗙ 16:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge. thei nformation will need sourcing, but there is no deadline. DGG (
talk ) 21:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge per DGG.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:50, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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How Geoland applies here? It’s not disputed territory or any type of the legally recognised place. If you can see the source then it’s of district authority office and you’ll find no mention of it except name of village. Read
WP:JUSTA.—Harshil want to talk? 11:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I think
Mccapra means the GEOLAND statement of "Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc." §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 15:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes thank you that’s what I meant.
Mccapra (
talk) 17:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
But clearly it’s not provided here. The lake is not famous to have significant coverage in books or news about its history or geography. —Harshil want to talk? 17:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
As a geographical feature it doesn’t need significant coverage. Many articles about lakes, reservoirs etc. on Wikipedia don’t.
Mccapra (
talk) 19:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. The lake exists, so the criteria listed on
WP:GEOLAND apply.
Utopes (
talk) 01:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. a geographical feature does not have to be famousto be notable, ; the assumption is that if it has sources for more than a map reference or a population figure, that it is notable . Thebasis for this is the statement in the most fundamental of all our rules,
WP:5, that WP has some of the characteristics of a gazetteer. DGG (
talk ) 09:12, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
DGG: here’s simple
google search. Most of the results are of wiki mirror site. No references has been found about this lake. I’m resident of the near by place and just living 10 kms near and I even never heard it. If you can find it in any book then you can cite it here.—Harshil want to talk? 09:35, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Harshil169,
WP:OUTCOMES is interesting reading - it's a breakdown of typical outcomes of deletion discussions.
WP:MAPOUTCOMES covers geographical features, and it's fairly widely accepted that articles about lakes are kept, even if they aren't notable in a GNG sort of way. I also think this is a keep, based on what I'm seeing at the article. Cheers
GirthSummit (blether) 11:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete as the information in the article cannot be verified as expected in
WP:V. I am not able to find any information about this lake (despite trying "Moti lake", "Moti talao", "Moti talav"). There are a bunch of other lakes in India with the same name. Other than Google maps, I don't see any mention of this lake. I suspect that the lake is not an officially named lake. I understand that many others are invoking
WP:GEOLAND, however information has to be verifiable. If I cannot even verify the name of the lake, I don't see why Wikipedia should keep what could be a potentially incorrect article.--
DreamLinker (
talk) 18:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Exactly
DreamLinker! That’s what I was saying to the people who wrote keep. Here’re key points of WP:GEOLAND and here’s how it fails
Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist.
Is any information about this lake is available in public domain? N
Are statistics even available with us? N
The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article.
Is there any verifiable content available in books or newspapers? N
Do locals living near the place are aware of this lake? N
Do Google shows any result about the place and information in reliable sources? N
Comment: I’m pinging @
Nizil Shah,
Gazal world, and
KartikMistry: as they’re residents of Gujarat and can have idea of notability of this place and comment well. In extra, pinging
DBigXray as he commented on my consecutive AfDs in which articles were created by same createor. You can read the above comments to know more about issue. —Harshil want to talk? 03:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment If you follow the coordinates given in the article you can see the lake on Google maps. If you search for ‘Moti talav’ you’ll see pictures of it, (there are pics on Wikipedia Commons) plus
1,
2,
3 and plenty of others. Thanks.
Mccapra (
talk) 03:58, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Mccapra: I can just laugh at these search results. These are for Sawantwadi, Maharashtra not for Bhat, Gujarat for which article is nominated for deletion. If you can google then distance between them is 1042 kilometers which is more than distance between Chicago to NY. Please do proper search. --Harshil want to talk? 04:07, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
ok that deserves a laugh.
Mccapra (
talk) 04:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Well I’ve thought about that and decided not to. When I search for Moti Lake in Gujarat I get one passing mention in a research paper and not much else, but my keep !vote was not based on a misidentification of this lake with another - I only went and searched just now. My keep !vote was based on Wikipedia being a gazetteer of geographical features. I’ve spent many happy hours deorphaning articles about lakes of the same size as this in France and Germany. There are hundreds of them, and for most we have no more by way of sourcing than we have for Moti Lake. On this basis I’ve decided to leave my !vote as it is.
Mccapra (
talk) 04:36, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete and information merged in village article. According to
WP:GEOLAND, Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes... lakes... The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the feature can instead be included in a more general article on local geography. I tried hard in English and local Gujarati language. Only information I can find is there is a reservoir lake (અનુશ્રવણ તળાવ) in Bhat village with size of 0.16 cubic and 2 metere depth Source:
Ahmedabad district site No. 103 in list. In Google Maps, I can see two other lakes (one being tagged Vasdar Talav and other not tagged). The listed reservoir lake could any one of these three lakes. The person who created the article created many articles on Bhat village for each and every small feature of the village. There is also a serious chance that the lake does not have any name and the creator himself named it Moti lake. Or at best the people living near it calling it Moti lake. There no sources available for Moti lake and is unlikely to expand beyond a sentence in future. There is no point in keeping this article only because it is a lake. Regards,-
Nizil (
talk) 06:20, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
CommentHarshil169 First, can I check whether you're familiar with the guidelines on
canvassing? I'm not saying you've broken them with your pings above, since it could be argued that you pinged the people you did because they are known for their expertise in this field, which would be appropriate notification, I'm merely mentioning it in case it wasn't something you were aware of - pinging specific editors from deletion discussions is sometimes interpreted as an attempt to improperly affect the outcome of the discussion.
You'll see that I've struck my keep vote above, based on the arguments you've put forward, and on Nizil's comments above. I have not done an exhaustive search for sourcing myself, but based on what Nizil is saying the best option might be to Mergewhat content we can into an article about the region or area the lake is in, and redirect this title to that article. Users with better local knowledge than me would be better placed than I am to suggest which article that should be -
Bhat seems like a possible candidate, a short line about this lake might be added to the 'Geography' section there, perhaps referenced to the research paper that
Mccapra identified (a passing reference should be enough to support an assertion that the lake exists). Cheers
GirthSummit (blether) 09:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Changing mind again per latest discussion
No, I know about canvassing and thus, I pinged three users who are living in near place like I am so that their opinion matters. And I pinged all of those first who voted here. And article you’ve linked is of community not of village. Best article is
Bhat, Daskroi. —Harshil want to talk? 10:53, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Harshil169, OK, no probs - just wanted to make sure you were aware. You're much better placed than me to determine the best redirect target, I'll bow to your judgement there. Cheers
GirthSummit (blether) 11:53, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't think I can support a merge/redirect because the name of the lake itself is unreferenced.--
DreamLinker (
talk) 18:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
DreamLinker, I think Mccapra said further up that they had found a source that mentioned it (albeit in passing) -
Mccapra, could you post a link to that so we can see whether it would support a merge?
GirthSummit (blether) 17:10, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Girth Summit: here’s what Mccapra has to say for their source. ok that deserves a laugh. Revisit convo. —Harshil want to talk? 17:42, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Harshil169, No, it was later in the conversation, they said it mentioned a Lake Moti in Ghujarat. It would be worth checking that.
GirthSummit (blether) 17:46, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment yes I found
this (see page 4 just above figure 2) though on rereading it, although it’s in Gujarat, I’m not completely sure it’s the same place.
Mccapra (
talk) 02:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Mccapra: Again, I’ll mildly these time laugh at your search result.😁
Pavagadh is 167.4 kilometres away from the place which is mentioned here. And the word “Moti Lake” literally means “Big lake” in Gujarati. So, Motu talav, Moti talav are in many villages of Gujarat. You should trust locals that no information about place is available. Regards,—Harshil want to talk? 02:21, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Ok well, if that source is also a dud, and we literally don't have any source that attests to the name even, then there's nothing to merge - striking the above.
GirthSummit (blether) 20:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. A lake that is only verified to exist is NOT by default notable. The province of Quebec has more than 500,000 lakes. These all presumably can be seen in maps. But we do not want articles for all of these, with merely location and name of lake information. Here it sounds like the lake is relatively unknown even locally, and there do not exist sources to meet wp:GNG. --
Doncram (
talk) 23:58, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Incomprehensibility questions aside it seems like there are notability concerns as well.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk,
contributions) 07:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy delete as
WP:CSD § A1. It is a very short article lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article. We write articles to give information, not to encourage people to disregard them go find said information elsewhere. Sending it to the draft namespace is another alternative.
flowing dreams (
talk page) 09:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment There are countless mainspace articles I can't understand because they're too technical for me or because I don't know enough about proteins or fluid mechanics. That's not a reason for deleting them.
Mccapra (
talk) 11:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Agreed. And I would like to emphasize that not understanding this article was not a factor in my recommendation of "speedy delete".
flowing dreams (
talk page) 14:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete I don't think that
A1 applies, because the article does establish a context: this thing is a variant of this other kind of thing that computer people study. But there doesn't appear to be enough discussion of it in the academic literature to establish it as wiki-notable.
XOR'easter (
talk) 16:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete I also don't think that
A1 applies, because from the references and prose it is clear that this is a topic in computer security regarding regarding a type of digital signature. Puncturable coding/encryption is a topic in computer security, but in my search, there are few papers that cite this particular aspect, and only the Zhang, et al, paper goes into any depth or shows impact of the topic. It is not enough to pass
WP:GNG notability guidelines. Since this work was published in 2016, it may be
WP:TOOSOON to have developed RS about it. Hence, my recommendation is to delete with with no prejudice to re-creation if and when sufficient RS become available. --{{u|
Mark viking}} {
Talk} 18:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Not notable place to have article on Wikipedia. Didn't find any coverage in reliable secondary sources. Harshil want to talk? 06:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
merge information in
Bhat, Daskroi and delete article, no redirect needed. A square in a small village and no reference. -
Nizil (
talk) 06:31, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
merge as suggested. I note the nom of this article has recently removed most of the information from the article on the village without giving a reason. I assume the reaso nwas the lack of an inline source, but such sources are required only for blp. If links do not work, that does not mean that plain information such as this is not sourceable. We do not remove content because of dead links unlesswe are sure there is no other possible source . DGG (
talk ) 21:29, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The obvious COI and sockpuppetry aside, the article fails
WP:GNG and
WP:NMUSIC. Sources are blogs and/or download referrers, so reliability and independence are unlikely. Key statements about his early life and education are not verifiable by the sources.
WP:A7 may just about be out of scope, but
WP:G11 may be entertained given the promotional sources. pseudonymJake Brockmantalk 05:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete I was going to suggest keep, but then looked at kubilive.com and discovered that it's a very slick site by one blogger. I cannot find any reliable sources that discuss the subject. Apparently
WP:TOOSOON.
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 05:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. I draftified this article previously, and it failed the AfC criteria. It appears the original creator went ahead and added it to namespace anyway. Fails WP:NMUSIC.
Utopes (
talk) 00:59, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:33, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. The whole article appears self-promotional, and despite all
peacock and
weasel words, there is no real claim to notability. There are only claims to being a family that is "highly regarded (weasel) for their superior wisdom and prestige (peacock)" There is much reason to believe that this article was written by a person who was close to the source, or by the source.
Utopes (
talk) 02:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
RL0919 (
talk) 03:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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No apparent claim of notability in the article, the sources present are weak and nothing reliable and verifiable could be found in a Google search.
Alansohn (
talk) 03:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete no actual claim to notability. When an article details placement in Who's Who in America, we are substituting paid for honors for the real thing.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete -- apparently a one-man ministry. We regularly delete local churches as NN and free-lance ministers are often less notable.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 21:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Nominated for deletion in Persian Wikipedia, the article contains not much more than definitions, improper for Wikipedia. Mohammad 03:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom.
Mccapra (
talk) 05:02, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete as written this is a dictionary not an encyclopedia article.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Redirects can be added at editorial discretion.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk,
contributions) 07:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
As a band member of
The Trews, he is already discussed in the band's article. There are no sources indicating notability for single performances that would justify a separate article, per
BAND, and therefore this page should be deleted. JGHowes talk 03:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - Looks to be a
WP:NMUSICIAN failure. As noted by the nom, the subject does not seem to have accrued significant enough coverage needed to separate them from their band—this is also in the spirit of
WP:NOTINHERITED, as subjects must be shown to be individually notable to be considered for a standalone article.--
SamHolt6 (
talk) 02:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, without prejudice against the recreation of a redirect to
The Trews. Band members are not automatically entitled to have their own standalone
WP:BLP separately from being discussed in the band's article, unless they can be
reliably sourced as having standalone notability for some substantive reason (e.g. solo albums) outside of the band context. But this literally just states that he exists as a band member, the end, which is not enough. And there's no substantive reason why we would need to retain the edit history behind a redirect, so we should delete and then redirect rather than just immediately redirecting with the edit history intact.
Bearcat (
talk) 12:02, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect to The Trews as not independently notable from the band, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 20:20, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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As a band member of
The Trews, he is already discussed in the band's article. There are no sources indicating notability for single performances that would justify a separate article, per
BAND, and therefore this page should be deleted. JGHowes talk 02:59, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, without prejudice against the recreation of a redirect to
The Trews. Band members are not automatically entitled to have their own standalone
WP:BLP separately from being discussed in the band's article, unless they can be
reliably sourced as having standalone notability for some substantive reason (e.g. solo albums) outside of the band context. But this literally just states that he exists as a band member, the end, which is not enough. And there's no substantive reason why we would need to retain the edit history behind a redirect, so we should delete and then redirect rather than just immediately redirecting with the edit history intact.
Bearcat (
talk) 12:02, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect as not independently notable, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 20:18, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was no consensus. Those advocating deletion suggest that this article's topic is not studied by Philosophers in a way that would convey notability and/or that it serves as a POVFORK/COATRACK from
Conspiracy theory. Those advocating keep suggest that there are enough philosophical works in reliable sources to support the article topic's existence. This AfD's closure is complicated by the posting to the Fringe Noticeboard. A neutrally worded message on a noticeboard is not CANVASSING however the posting in this instance was hardly neutral. While it did not directly mention this AfD merely the article, it seems to have drawn attention in the sense that the AfD had been open for two weeks prior to that posting and the majority of participation, including nearly all delete !voters, followed that notice. However, as CANVASS is a behavioral policy and there was a split in the vote of those who came following the FRINGE posting I have given full weight to all editors views expressed here. As such there is no consensus.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 03:46, 2 November 2019 (UTC)reply
I've consulted the NOR page and the section on synthesis, and I don't think this article has these problems. I've removed one paragraph anyway, which might be objectionable on notability grounds. And I changed the introduction to be a simple straightforward statement of the topic.
I would note that the content is largely, though not exclusively, a summary of summaries, as can be seen by looking at the references. For example, in one section, I repeatedly cite David Coady's introduction to his book Conspiracy Theories: The Philosophical Debate, in which he summarizes the published articles on this topic up until 2006. Isn't that exactly what I'm supposed to do?
Keep Summarizes a topic from the academic literature without advancing a new thesis about it. It might need a going-over with the encyclopedic-tone-alizer, but the subject is legitimate and the sourcing is OK.
XOR'easter (
talk) 17:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Isn't that the purpose of the
Conspiracy Theory article? To summarize the credible, scholarly literature on the topic? I would expect a "Philosophy of" article to be a good deal more "meta" and to focus on the history and impact of the scholarship itself.
ApLundell (
talk) 21:31, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. There is no branch of
philosophy,
per sources, that is called "Philosophy of conspiracy theories." This is a blatantly false claim. There's a plethora of work on conspiracy theories, in general or about particular ones, their origins, their effect on society and people, and so on. (The text looks like a student's paper, by the way, one of the avalanche of papers that are trying to find their way onto Wikipedia lately.) At best, this text needs to be draftified and get a serious make over. -
The Gnome (
talk) 18:50, 22 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
78.26(
spin me /
revolutions) 02:57, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. (I assume I can vote for a page I originated, although my support is already implicit.) It seems The Gnome is suggesting that one of the sources is illegitimate because it, apparently, characterized the philosophy of conspiracy theory as a "branch" of philosophy. The Gnome calls this a "blatantly false claim." It is not clear which source is the offending one, so that makes checking the context difficult. In any case, I'm not sure it is quite fair to call this a "blatantly false claim." Personally, I would prefer to describe the philosophy of conspiracy theory as a subfield of applied epistemology, which is a subfield (or perhaps "branch") of applied philosophy, which may be considered a branch of philosophy. However, I think there is some ambiguity regarding what counts as a "branch" and that the word may legitimately be used in a loose way in this circumstance. The Gnome may disagree. But I don't think this criticism amounts to much, as there can be little question that it refers to a distinct, albeit small, subfield of philosophy.
Knuteson (
talk) 13:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Knuteson, could you then please name a few philosophers of conspiracy theories? Philosophers, please, and not sociologists, psychologists, analysts, reporters, critics, and so on. Additionally, could we locate any philosophy studies taught anywhere with Conspiracy Theories as their subject? All philosophical schools and subjects are taught somewhere. But, first, let's identify the philosophers, which denotes something quite specific. -
The Gnome (
talk) 14:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
P.S. : There is nothing "loose" or vague about the term "
philosophy", or its derivatives, i.e. "philosopher". We may be saying in everyday parlance, "Paul is being philosophical about his misfortune", but that is a metaphorical, colloquial use. -
The Gnome (
talk) 14:50, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Bona fide philosophers who have written at least a couple articles on the subject include: Charles Pigden, David Coady, Steve Clarke, Quassim Cassam, Matthew Dentith, Lee Basham, Kurtis Hagen, Brian Keeley, Patrick Stokes and Juha Räikkä. Other philosophers who have written at least one article include on the topic include: Keith Harris, Neil Levy, Pete Mandik, Philippe Huneman and Marion Vorms (jointly), and Joel Buenting and Jason Taylor (jointly). Other notable scholars who are not philosophers, such as Cass Sunstein and Adrien Vermeule, have contributed to the discussion in philosophy venues (such as the Journal of Political Philosophy). As to whether it is taught at universities: According to Google, “Epistemology of Conspiracy Theories” has been taught as a philosophy course, by Professor of Philosophy Aaron James, at the University of California, Irvine. I imagine it has been taught elsewhere to some degree, perhaps by some of the philosophers who publish in that area, though I don’t know the extent.
Knuteson (
talk) 16:19, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I should add that the Companion to Applied Philosophy (Wiley Blackwell, 2017) contains a chapter, “Are Conspiracy Theories Epistemically Vicious?” by Charles Pigden. This suggests that such questions are regarded as relatively representative of applied philosophy.
Knuteson (
talk) 19:03, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I should also add that the Routledge Handbook of Applied Epistemology (2019) has a chapter called ‘The applied epistemology of conspiracy theories: An overview’ by M. R. X. Dentith and Brian Keeley. (And I seem to have missed the work of philosopher Susan Feldman. I have probably missed others as well.)
Knuteson (
talk) 23:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Epistemology is the branch of
philosophy concerned with knowledge. When a subject, e.g. conspiracy theories, is discussed and taught in classes of epistemology, that on its own does not make those subjects part of philosophy! Epistemology addresses such questions as, "What makes justified beliefs justified?", "What does it mean to say that we know something?", etc? In the course of epistemological analysis one may focus on
superstitions,
delusions, or
cults. But this does not make any of them part of philosophy! An expert in
astrology or a
conspiracy theorist would hardly be called a "philosopher." Therefore, all that stuff about epistemology is irrelevant.
The fact that, in philosophy classes, the epistemology of conspiracy theories is (sometimes) taught, and not conspiracy theories per se, should be edifying - and enough.
The
poetRoger Angell writes regularly, and one would dare say gloriously, about
baseball. Yet, this does not make the game part of the
poetrycanon.
Baseball can only be denoted as "poetry" metaphorically. Same goes for all those "philosophers who have written at least a couple articles on the subject" of conspiracy theories, whom you brought forth as evidence of your argument. If you'd care to read what they have written, you'd see that they're treating the subject as a social phenomenon; not as part of some philosophical endeavor. Random samples: Charles Pigden
here;
Quassim Cassamhere;
Patrick Stokeshere; Brian L. Keeley
here (quote "An analysis of the alleged explanatory virtues of unwarranted conspiracies suggests some reasons for their current popularity, while at the same time providing grounds for their rejection"); and so on.)
You cite the existence of a chapter titled “Are Conspiracy Theories Epistemically Vicious?” in a book for philosophy classes. But this is simply part of various issues in life that philosophers also examine, as I explained above. It does not mean, as you assert, that "questions [such as conspiracy theories] are regarded as relatively representative of applied philosophy."
Applied philosophy has nothing to do with the plethora of unsupported, insane beliefs that are out there, nor is is "represented" by them! It merely offers an elementary warning against them; end of story. The effort to establish that there exists some kind of philosophy of conspiracy theories is both
groundlessand a serious liguistic mistake. -
The Gnome (
talk) 13:44, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
This is getting a little tiring. You had asked questions, and I answered them. Now you seem to be moving the goal post. I thought the question was whether bona fide philosophers have discussed the epistemic merits of conspiracy theories in philosophical venues, including philosophy journals and philosophy classes. They have. But now you are turning it into a question of whether this really counts as philosophy of that subject.
It is not that conspiracy theories are part of philosophy, it is that treating them philosophically is part of philosophy. The same can be said of religion and science (see point 2 below). In any case, I suppose we could trade examples and give competing arguments by analogy regarding the meaning of “philosophy of …” But the important fact is that the phrase “the epistemology of conspiracy theories” has been used in philosophical circles (as cited above) to refer to the philosophical exploration of the epistemic merits and demerits of conspiracy theories, and the phrase “the philosophy of conspiracy theories” has been used to indicate the same terrain while also being inclusive of ethical issues. (I have not yet included a section on the ethics of conspiracy theorizing, but I plan to). Is your objection that the page has been improperly titled? In that case the solution is not deletion, but simply changing the title. (Any suggestions?) Or is it that you think philosophers discussing conspiracy theories in the philosophical literature is not a topic that should be permitted on Wikipedia? If so, on what basis?
A “philosophy of science” class would not involve science, but rather philosophical discussions about science; a “philosophy of religion” would not teach religion, but rather involve a philosophical discussion about issues related to religion. Similarly, the philosophy of conspiracy theories involves philosophical considerations regarding ethical and epistemological issues related to conspiracy theories. (The epistemology of conspiracy theories covers the subset of epistemological considerations.)
In point 3 you seem to suggest that philosophers who discuss conspiracy theories in philosophy forums are somehow not doing philosophy when they do so. They are like, you seem to suggest, philosophers who happen to be talking about baseball, rather than discussing philosophical issues involved in baseball. (There is, in fact, a book called “The Philosophy of Baseball,” by a philosopher, which is presumably a work of philosophy.) In fact, if they are treating the matter philosophically, they are doing the kind of philosophy called “applied philosophy,” and it does count as philosophy—philosophy departments count this work as research in philosophy relevant to tenure and promotion. (It is unclear why the papers by Stokes and Keeley, in particular, are supposed to be examples of “not philosophy.” They most certainly count as philosophy. Whether they treat conspiracy theories as “a social phenomenon” is totally irrelevant. Of course conspiracy theorizing is a social phenomenon. One can philosophize about social phenomena—and I’m not using the word “philosophize” loosely here.)
Point 4 seems to reflect multiple misunderstandings (some of which have been discussed above), as well as lack of familiarity with the material. Also, your understanding of “conspiracy theory” seems highly skewed. In the philosophical literature, at least, the meaning that you imply has been largely repudiated. Coincidently, I have just finished, and will be adding, a new section on the discussion of the definition of conspiracy theory. Perhaps the fact that most academic philosophers who write on this subject don’t share your perspective rubs you the wrong way. But that is not a good reason to delete the page. (Since this is Wikipedia, anyone is free to check the references and make adjustments if something seems to be mischaracterized, or to add bits or sections, if one thinks I’ve given a skewed account.)
Although I am just learning the ways of Wikipedia, I have done the reading on this topic (everything I’ve cited, and more, but not everything written by everybody), and I have had some training in philosophy. I do know what I’m talking about, and I’d appreciate it if you did not insinuate otherwise.
Knuteson (
talk) 20:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I would agree that continuing the discussion is tiring, and, I'd add, fruitless. You seem to have a very loose definition of philosophy, whereby the use of the term perforce renders a subject part of philosopy, through the back door of the "applied" term. So be it. I will only state here that
I do not engage in personal invective, so your reference to insinuations is unfounded. All in all, I have presented my viewpoint, as you have yours, so
it's high time I take my leave. Cheers. -
The Gnome (
talk) 22:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Okay. Thank you. I do have to make some final remarks about all this, just for the record: The comment, “If you'd care to read what they have written, you'd see …” seems to imply that the person addressed had not read the works in question. I leave it to others to judge whether or not the inference, on my part, given the full context, was unfounded. But perhaps you just mean that, on your part, it was unintended. Fair enough.
As for the looseness of the definition, William James famously defined philosophy as the “uncommonly stubborn attempt to think clearly.” It may be that James and I, and the many philosophers who list unusual projects on their university websites, and the committees that recommend them for tenure and promotion, have a loose definition of philosophy. But I don’t think that makes the most sense of the situation. And I don’t think applied philosophy is some sort of “back door,” as though it isn’t fully legitimate. I suspect philosophy faculty members who contribute to journals such as the Journal of Applied Philosophy, and the International Journal of Applied Philosophy would concur with me on this.
Knuteson (
talk) 13:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment This one is rather difficult to judge. @
A loose necktie: I would suggest asking neutrally for participation at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy to get some feedback from editors who regularly work in this content area. I personally am finding it difficult to parse out whether this is an actual field of study in and of itself, or whether it's just putting a philosophy lens through which to view conspiracy theories. This is one of those things where it requires some prior knowledge of the field to really properly assess. Good luck.
4meter4 (
talk) 17:03, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I appreciate the call for feedback. I hope that this issue can come to a resolution relatively quickly. I must say that I don’t see what is so difficult to judge about it. Questions and challenges have been presented, and they have all been answered. Further, there are Wikipedia pages for the philosophy of suicide, philosophy of space and time, philosophy of self, and philosophy of the social sciences—and that is just for areas that start with “s” (chosen at random). There are lots and lots such pages. In any case, philosophers have been interacting in a debate that has been going for two decades and has been commented on by historians. Surely the phenomenon is noteworthy. Is it just a problem with the title? Or is there some sort of bias against what these philosophers are saying? What exactly is the substance of the complaint? I feel like I've been playing whack a mole.
Knuteson (
talk) 14:01, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I think it's more difficult to parse out abstract concepts as to whether they are accurate to the source material or an original synthesis supported by the source material. I haven't the background in philosophy (beyond what everyone takes in Philosophy 101 in college) to feel like I can form an opinion. I left a neutral note at the WikiProject to come here. I myself am not voting, Best.
4meter4 (
talk) 18:40, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment I'll bet you anything that you won't find such a page in any other Wikipedia other than the English one. This is because "conspiracy theories" are a meme and and obsession of American culture since the assassination of President Kennedy, in 1963, which to my view is basically just still an unresolved mystery. But leaving that aside, there is a Conspiracy Theory page in the English Wikipedia in which these issues are all debated quite frequently. To my view, there in no need for an additional page on the "philosophy" of this meme and American cultural obsession.
warshy(¥¥) 20:17, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
It not true that this issue is not discussed in other countries. But that point is not relevant anyway. If it did have relevance it would suggest that the “conspiracy theory” page ought to be deleted too. As for “these issues” being debated quite frequently on the conspiracy theory page, please point me to the best examples of these discussions you’ve had about the philosophical literature on conspiracy theories.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete Our
conspiracy theory article contains a plethora of philosophical opinions reflecting mainstream discourse on the subject. This article focuses primary weight on opinions that suggest some (unspecified) conspiracy theories shouldn't be dismissed because some are likely true. At best, it's a
WP:POVFORK, and at worst, a
WP:COATRACK. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 22:25, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
What exactly are you referring to? The article itself contains no significant discussion of the work of bona fide philosophers.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Although this is new to me, I see that there are various different kind of COATRACKing. Which kind are you alleging? And what exactly is your evidence?
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
By the way, Guy Macon, LuckyLouie, and warshy, I have a question for you three. Before you recommended that this page be deleted, had you read any of the literature in question? What exactly had you read?
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Question - I would agree that many academic scholars have studied the generalized topic of “conspiracy theory” (certainly many historians have done so) and I accept that philosophers might have explored the topic from a philosophical perspective... but does anyone actually use the phrase “philosophy of conspiracy theory” to describe what they are doing? Is it the title of a university course somewhere?
Blueboar (
talk) 23:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Clever class, but it doesn't represent a coherent research community or discourse. Instead, it's simply an offshoot of other skeptical Phil. 101-type classes.
jps (
talk) 12:23, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
There has also been a book on the topic with that title. But I don’t think the title is really that important. There have been at least a couple courses on the “epistemology of conspiracy theories.” But that label leaves out the related ethical issues. There is a special issue of the journal Argumenta titled, “The Ethics and the Epistemology of Conspiracy Theories.” We could call it that. There is a book called “Conspiracy Theories: The Philosophical Debate,” we could call it that. A book chapter called, “The History of Conspiracy Theory Research,” has a section called, “The Debate in Analytical Philosophy on Warranted and Unwarranted Conspiracy Believes (Mid-1990s to the Present).” That’s a bit unwieldy. “Philosophy of conspiracy theories” is more succinct. But let’s not confuse the issue of whether there is something noteworthy, which legitimates its inclusion on Wikipedia, with the separate issue of what it should be called.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. POVFORK/COATRACK as others have said. Any material on the "philosophy" of conspiracy theories should be included in the main
Conspiracy theory article to make better sense in context, per
WP:NOPAGE.
Alexbrn (
talk) 06:41, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
I have no objection to this suggestion. Let us not confuse reasons to move this material with reasons to delete it.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
WEAK Delete Looks like a POVFORK/COATRACK to avoid the definition question.
Slatersteven (
talk) 10:27, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
I don’t see how I’ve avoided the definition question. It is addressed at the top of the page. If you think this material is better suited for the “conspiracy theory” page, I’m fine with including it there. After all, what discipline concerns itself with careful analysis of concepts? Is it the social sciences? No, their discussions of definitions are usually perfunctory. It is philosophy. It is in the philosophical literature where one actually finds a rigorous scholarly debate going on about how best to understand the concept "conspiracy theory."
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. This is an
original essay not backed up by
WP:SECONDARY sources. The narrative being spun is that there is some coherent group of "philosophers of conspiracy theories" when, instead, we simply have some philosophers who have written about conspiracy theories in various contexts.
jps (
talk) 12:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
I’ve used secondary sources as much as possible. The introduction to a volume of previously published essays that summarizes them is a secondary source. Further, it is not the case that only secondary sources may be used. And there is, in fact, a coherent group of philosophers writing about these issues and engaging each other in the process. Have you looked at the cited material?
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Now, let’s not lose focus. These are the issues, as I see them:
Does this page describe a genuine and distinct phenomenon that is noteworthy? I have argued that it does. There are books written about it, special issues of philosophy journals, and it is commented on by historians. Though I think “philosophy of conspiracy theories” is a good label, I don’t particularly care what you call it.
Does the page represent a POV, rather than faithfully describing the content? No one has yet provided any evidence that it is anything less than a fair and accurate description of the field (at least up through 2007, it is not yet complete). If one wants a reasonably easy way to check, just look at the introductions to the books or special issues on the topic (note that only the second half of the essays in the special issue of Argumenta are by philosophers, and that the contrast with the first half is striking).
Is this material redundant? It has been suggested that there already exists something equivalent on the “conspiracy theory” page. But this does not seem to be true.
If the material is noteworthy, accurate, and not redundant, then the question becomes: Where should it be located? Regarding this question, I don’t really care. I thought it made sense as a stand-alone page, especially since the “conspiracy theory” page is already long, and I intend to add more to this page. At some point it makes sense to separate topics. And there are, as mentioned above, countless “philosophy of …” pages. But if it is thought best to incorporate this material into the main “conspiracy theory” page, that is fine with me. Indeed, one could argue that the philosophical discussion of the definition should be prominent, for reasons mentioned above.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Note to closing admin. The recent influx of votes have appeared after a somewhat
non-neutrally worded notification about this AFD posted at
WP:FTN by
LuckyLouie (as well as a neutrally worded one at
WT:WPP by
4meter4 for full disclosure). I have no opinion on the outcome of this discussion itself, but I wanted to point out the potential issue with
WP:CANVASS. –
Deacon Vorbis (
carbon •
videos) 14:25, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep At least given the arguments so far. Seems to fairly plainly just summarize the sources cited. So whatever the POV in this "POVFORK", I'm not sure I see exactly what it is, unless it is the POV of the sources cited, which is the POV we're supposed to be presenting. As to the FORK bit:
Philosophy of mind/
Mind,
Philosophy of education/
Education,
Philosophy of happiness/
Happiness,
Philosophy of religion/
Religion, I could continue if anyone really needs me to. Seems we fairly regularly fork off examinations specifically of the philosophy of the subject from main articles dealing with the subject as a whole.
GMGtalk 15:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
User:Deacon Vorbis's note,
User:Knuteson's responses to all the criticism raised above, and
User:GreenMeansGo latest comments above, have all made me rethink my position regarding
User:Knuteson's creation. I believe
User:Knuteson does know the epistemological basis of the subject matter, and he has been able to weave a good enough WP article on it, which I've now added to my watchlist. He also knows how to write and how to argue on Wikipedia very well. Kudos! I now believe the article will be retained by Wikipedia in the end. I will change my "Delete" vote above, to a simple "Comment." Thank you,
warshy(¥¥) 16:43, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep While I have some reservations I think this topic could potentially be a worthwhile addition. I intend to read the extensive list of references and will try to address the concerns about the article. --
mikeutalk 17:52, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep This seems like a good start to an article on an interesting topic.
Simonm223 (
talk) 18:37, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Two additional notes: 1 - I found about the RfC through
WP:FRINGE/N and not through the method mentioned by Deacon Vorbis. 2 - I would also support a move of this content to the principal article; however I believe there is probably enough novel content in the article as it stands to support a stand-alone article.
Simonm223 (
talk) 18:41, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep The issue is that articles like this, however well they may begin, are in danger of being taken over by POV edits over a longer period. But as long as enough people are interested in this topic - and I think there are - to keep an eye on it, it should be possible to even it out into something acceptable.
Deb (
talk) 18:47, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete (Merge anything useful) Other "philosophy of" articles describe an actual field of study. They describe the history of schools of thought on the topic, the describe how different movements among philosophers have held different amounts of academic sway over time. In short, they are articles about the significant history of the scholarship itself. Not so with this article. There's no real discussion about the philosophy as its own thing or the philosophy's impact on society. It's is just a handful of "A specific academic once said this", which is the sort of thing that should be rolled into the main article as ordinary citations.
ApLundell (
talk) 21:21, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
1) The existence of other articles is not particularly relevant to a deletion discussion. 2) We are discussing the topic of this article, not its content. FromAnUnnamedUser(open talk page) 21:31, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
1)I am familiar with
WP:OTHERSTUFF, but as OTHERSTUFF arguments are being made by "keep" !voters, I think it's valid to point out that those articles are very different than the article under discussion.
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:32, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
A notable film and television producer? That's rare. I don't see anything at Google News that would make this guy qualify as meeting our
WP:GNG. He is the co-founder of an Indian production company called Rashmi Sharma Telefilms Limited, whose article, I notice, was deleted as the result of
this AFD. So if his company is not deemed notable, he certainly wouldn't be by default.
Cyphoidbomb (
talk) 00:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - You could make an argument for him meeting
WP:FILMMAKER #3, given the substantial body of work, much of which appears to be at least notable enough to have Wikipedia articles. However, that only creates a presumption of notability that still needs to be supported by reliable sources and I simply can't find sufficient sources. He doesn't even get close to meeting the
WP:GNG and, given this is a BLP and needs to be meticulously sourced, there simply isn't enough to support an article.
Hugsyrup 09:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. There just aren't any good sources out there on Pawan Kumar Marut (although there are on the films he has worked on). We can't make an article on a topic that just isn't covered anywhere. Fails
WP:SIGCOV.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep,
WP:SNOW, should not have been nominated--
Ymblanter (
talk) 16:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep - Sounds like a
WP:IDONTLIKEIT nomination. (Extremely) quick Google search suggests a GNG pass anyway:
[8],
[9],
[10] - that's without speaking the language, very likely more out there for those who are experienced with Russian/Ukrainian. Also, I believe articles regarding subjects from the pre-internet age are given a pass anyway - at least that's the case with historic British players at NFOOTY.
R96Skinner (
talk) 00:36, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep A quick - nay, even cursory - glance at the Ukrainian-language page shows plenty of
WP:GNG coverage. Needs to be expanded, not deleted.
SportingFlyerT·C 02:10, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.
GiantSnowman 09:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was Draftify. --
RoySmith(talk) 22:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Contested PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails
WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. PROD was contested on the grounds that he has played for Iran's U-17 and U-20 national teams. This does not satisfy
WP:NFOOTBALL.
Sir Sputnik (
talk) 00:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.
GiantSnowman 09:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Draftify Persepolis are a major club (2018 AFC runners up) so he is likely (but not certainly) notable if he's on their squad.
SportingFlyerT·C 12:21, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep i agree with both of users above.the player and the article must be remain.when footballer sign with popular team at age 17,he can be notable.he's also be known of iran's national team,he played and scored in
2018_AFC_U-16_Championship#Group_C and you can see the squad
here with number 18.if it will be deleted,it will be created soon! so keep the article like many youth player in this range and case.--
Mojtaba2361 (
talk) 16:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Mojtaba2361: Just because they notable due to the fact that they competed in the
AFC U-16 Championship. An example would be
Alex Popović from Australia as he is signed to Adelaide United youth team but he isn't eligible for a page as he has not played in a
WP:FPL league yet. It's the same with this player, yeah he has signed for a team that is eligible via
WP:FPL but due to the fact that he hasn't played in a professional game yet, the best cause of action would be either to delete or at least move it to draft.
HawkAussie (
talk) 00:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete or Draftify- fails
WP:GNG and
WP:NFOOTBALL. If he becomes notable later for future activities the article can always be recreated.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Draftiy - Signed for
Persepolis F.C. which is a club that is eligible due to
WP:FPL. But because he hasn't played in a league match yet, it's best if this was moved to a draft until we see him play in a professional league game.
HawkAussie (
talk) 00:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. The discussion of them being a predatory publisher or other negative allegations are irrelevant at AfD. While promotionalism is a reason that an article may be deleted at AfD that is not the argument here. Instead there seems to be general consensus that this article is about a notable company and there is no policy based explanation for deletion of a notable topic advanced. As such there is a clear keep consensus.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 03:32, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - Half the references are sourced to the organisation's own website, and the remainder are primary sources (an open access and copyright policy as a source? Really?). Not a single one would qualify as a
reliable source. Likewise, I cannot find any better sources from my own searching.
Hugsyrup 09:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I have no opinion as yet on keeping or deleting, but must note that this publisher has been listed as possibly predatory at
doi:
10.1016/j.neuroscience.2017.04.014 and
doi:
10.3346/jkms.2016.31.12.1874, although it now claims to follow the code of the
Committee on Publication Ethics. The possibly predatory nature seems to be the aspect of this publisher that has attracted the most attention in reliable sources, so, per
WP:WEIGHT, should be mentioned in the article if it is kept.
Phil Bridger (
talk) 12:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - As above, not notable, poorly sourced and little SIGCOV. Note: previously deleted CSD A7
here. Seems little, if any, improvement... I came across this as a draft and although I tried to find more sources, I could not do so. I noted it, but it slipped down my list of tasks and the next I saw, it had been accepted, which surprised me and brought here.
Eagleash (
talk) 13:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Ah yes, it was accepted by @
DGG: - courtesy ping in case they have a different perspective on this.
Hugsyrup 13:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. They publish 17 journals that are in web of science or scopus, which is notability for those journals. This doesn't imply it for the company, but 17 out of its 49 that meet those standards is characteristic of a notable publisher. it is so extrordinarily difficult to find sources that meet our standards for publishers of all sorts especially those who are not trade publishers, that I tend to be quite liberal in interpretation here. This is especially true of those not in the major science-article-producing countries. This company is in Iran, and most of its journalsspecialize in that region. So we also need to consider systematic bias, (FWIW, the standard for accepting at AfC isn't that it is certain to pass AfD, but that it probably will; this does not mean a bare 51%, but most reviewers use somewhere around 80% chance of passing.). DGG (
talk ) 20:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks for commenting - it’s useful to understand better why you accepted the draft. FWIW, I’m sticking with delete. I’m afraid I don’t quite buy the argument that we should lower our standards for a topic simply because it’s too difficult to find sources. They’re almost certainly hard to find because they don’t exist (unless anyone can convince me that they are actually out there, which doesn’t seem to be your argument), and if they don’t exist then it’s not notable by our standard. One could equally argue that it’s extraordinarily difficult to find sources for ‘garage bands that have never released an album’, or ‘new actors with only a single credit to their name’, or any of the other categories of article that are regularly deleted as non-notable.
Hugsyrup 06:36, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment, it's been flagged as predatory by Beall, btw. Headbomb {
t ·
c ·
p ·
b} 06:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm enclined to keep per DGG though. Headbomb {
t ·
c ·
p ·
b} 06:20, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep, per
DGG, as the subject is notable as a publisher of scientific journals. The article, however, could use some improvement. -
AuthorAuthor (
talk) 19:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep - This publisher is notable because of predatory claims and for a
high retraction rate. It also publishes multiple indexed journals. Indexed journals are generally considered notable. I appreciate that notability is not inherited but also appreciate
DGG's point that it is difficult to find sources for publishers and, yes, we do shortcut
WP:GNG for important subjects (
WP:NPROF,
WP:NTV,
WP:GEOLAND, for instance) that don't tend to get the mass-media attention that would give them the internet search hits. ~
Kvng (
talk) 21:49, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep, per DGG. And, yes, we do have independent sources. Beall's blog is not online any more, but still accessible in the Internet Archive and can be used as a reference and the same goes for the RetractionWatch mentioned by Kvng. It's not ideal, but it's two independent sources all the same. Given that they now have multiple journals in the Science Citation Index Expanded and Scopus, it looks like they are cleaning up their act. If Beall still maintained his list, he might have removed them by now (no way to know for certain, of course). But thanks to
Frontiers Media, Beall's list is not updated any more (and Frontiers shot themselves in the foot big time, because now there never will be a mention in their article that Beall took them off his list...) --
Randykitty (
talk) 05:13, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Question Are they a
predatory publisher and have they been named in
Beall's List? If so, I'd argue for speedy delete. Otherwise, my vote is indifferent to keep or delete.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 01:06, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Kvng, you beat me to it, I had the same question for
Dmehus. Since when is the quality (or lack thereof) of a subject a reason to keep or delete? If we do away with this one because it's a bad publisher, then why not also do away with
Charles Manson, because he's a bad person? --
Randykitty (
talk) 16:21, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
In the same, or similar, way in which we purge
non-notable companies. If the publisher is not a credible publisher of academic journals, does not complete any peer review, or the like, how is it any better than, say, a quasi-spammy blog like BuzzFeed?
Doug Mehus (
talk) 16:27, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
But we do have an article on
BuzzFeed... We should base our !votes on policy, not opinions. --
Randykitty (
talk) 16:53, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Randykitty: But I am basing my !vote on policy, specifically,
WP:SIGCOV and, crucially,
WP:CORPDEPTH. There are some blogs and journal articles that raise questions of this publisher's publication quality and peer review processes, so it may pass
WP:SIGCOV but it fails
WP:CORPDEPTH. There simply isn't enough
reliable sources to write more than a
permastub with a second, possibly a third, short paragraph on the publisher's apparent lack of editorial control. --
Doug Mehus (
talk) 17:14, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
DeleteorDraftify without prejudice to re-creation in the future. The factual accuracy of this article is in question, including whether the fact this publisher's journals undergo
peer review as it is named on
Beall's List. When you strip out that and its
puffery, there is nothing worth salvaging in this article. If someone wants to work on this article, I wouldn't be opposed to Draftify, but as written, it's a delete.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 16:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
"Puffery" is a reason to clean up an article, not to delete it. Beall's list is a source, as is the fact that several of their journals are in Scopus and Clarivate Analytics databases. I urge you to get more familiar with how AfD is supposed to work. --
Randykitty (
talk) 16:53, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I think
puffery can be used to explain that an article is written like an advertisement, which is a reason to delete. Nevertheless, it's not the main argument for deleting this. I think many people on here argue for keeping articles to preserve editing history and contributions, but Wikipedia does not have bylines. We're unattributed poor slugs who edit anonymously (well, some of us use our real names, like me, but what I mean is, attribution is not to us). Like I said, I see your point that an illegitimate journal publisher can still be
notable, so that's why I suggested deleting without prejudice to re-creation in the future or to draftifying the article for someone to take action on. A lot of companies use Wikipedia for SEO purposes and our "no time limit" policy, with respect, is a mistake, because companies can essentially let editor inattention work in their favour.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 17:07, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
WP:NODEADLINES is an important part of Wikipedia. Like most of us, I've got a lot of other things going on and I would not be able about to volunteer here were it not for this. Similarly
WP:NOTCLEANUP is also important, as is
WP:IMPERFECT. Sure there are those inside and outside Wikipedia who take advantage of this chill for their gain. I understand that can emotionally upsetting to someone with a zero-sum outlook. I understand (but don't buy into) the arguments that it reflects poorly on Wikipedia. ~
Kvng (
talk) 17:57, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep per DGG and Kvng.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:45, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment and Opposition to using
Web of Science as Keep rationales - While this company may be
notable based
WP:SIGCOV (likely still fails
WP:CORPDEPTH), has anyone checked out
Clarivate Analytics (owner of Web of Science) financials lately? Declining revenues, increasing losses, piling debt—this thing is a
corporate dung heap I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole from an investment standpoint. I see trends emerging in this space where one
private equity firm passes off an investment to another
private equity firm or a
willing sucker until the
rodeo ends. So, in short, I won't change my vote on the basis of this company likely still failing
WP:CORPDEPTH, I feel compelled to make this important observation re: Web of Science (a corporate product) and Clarivate.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 17:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment Sorry, but this must rank among the weirdest rationales that I've ever seen at an AfD debate. Clarivate's finances have absolutely nothing to do with whether we consider its indexes reliable sources (note that WoS is not an index, it's only a platform to access Clarivate's indexes, a perhaps subtle but nonetheless important distinction). --
Randykitty (
talk) 17:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Randykitty, I agree, but note my opposition is to listing
Web of Science, a Clarivate platform, as a deletion rationale. I agree with you that WoS is not an index but a corporate platform. Thus, I don't see how that's helpful in justifying a keep as
DGG et al. said above and in reply to his comment. This company may well meet
WP:SIGCOV, so that's a potential keep reason, but, similarly, potentially failing
WP:CORPDEPTH is a potential delete reason. Trying to say their journals are listed in a corporate knowledge platform for the sciences is not a keep reason, in my view.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 19:02, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment The indexing is in the
Science Citation Index Expanded (accessible through WoS), which is one of the more selective indexes around. Inclusion in the SCIE is generally accepted as evidence that a journal is notable, because such an inclusion only comes after a commission of specialists has evaluated the journal. It is also significant coverage, because inclusion in the SCIE means also inclusion in the
Journal Citation Reports, which publishes detailed yearly evaluations of a journal's citation history. --
Randykitty (
talk) 19:12, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Randykitty, I, for one, welcome the day when
Crossref,
ORCID,
Google Scholar, and
Microsoft Academic are collectively the preeminent sources for journal citations. It seems overly anachronistic and stodgy to rely, in a migratory trend of scholarly journals to migrate to digital-first or digital-only, on a printed scholarly journal which publishes citation statistics. Nevertheless, I appreciate your reply and expanded commentary.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 19:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
None of those are selective indices. Those aim to be comprenhensive. Headbomb {
t ·
c ·
p ·
b} 20:57, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep - in addition to the rationale given by DGG, Headbomb has expanded the article and generally cleaned it up to an acceptable shape. I don't really see why something being a load of rubbish is a reason per se to delete an article, otherwise we wouldn't have a page on Plan 9 from Outer Space.
Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 17:35, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Ritchie333, lack of sourcing is the reason why I nominated this article for deletion, and the improvements to the article do not include enough sourcing in my opinion. –
Muboshgu (
talk) 17:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Ritchie333, Agree with you that this publisher's questioned editorial and peer review process are not, themselves, deletion rationale, but I do think, though this company may pass
WP:SIGCOV, there's not sufficient
WP:RS which allow it to pass
WP:CORPDEPTH. We should not be aiming for mediocrity on Wikipedia. Every article should have potential to become, at minimum, a C-class article (that is, not, start- or stub-class articles).
Doug Mehus (
talk) 19:06, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Doug, your interpretation of
WP:CORPDEPTH is a valid opinion, but it is not what that consensus-agreed guideline says, which is that the coverage in independent reliable sources "makes it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization". That is a lesser standard than just being able to write a stub in general. If you want to argue for a stricter standard then this is not the place to do so.
Phil Bridger (
talk) 19:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Phil Bridger, So what the heck is
WP:CORPDEPTH saying, in your opinion? Or, what's the current consensus, assuming one exists? My understanding is the test can be two-part, depending on the context of the article and the prevailing consensus of the AfD at that time. For example, many AfD discussions will see articles pass
WP:SIGCOV but fail
WP:CORPDEPTH and be kept. Others will fail both (the strongest deletes, arguably).
Doug Mehus (
talk) 19:53, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
As I said, the fact, not just my opinion, is that
WP:CORPDEPTH is saying exactly what I quoted it as saying. If you want it to say something else, like that there has to be enough coverage to justify a C-class article, then discuss the issue at
Wikipedia talk:Notability (organizations and companies), but don't claim that it says something that it doesn't.
Phil Bridger (
talk) 20:00, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Phil Bridger, Oh, I thought you were quoting what I said. To me, my interpretation of "makes it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization" means there needs to be enough
WP:RS to write more than, or at least substantiate the
WP:PRIMARY-sourced material, to wrote more than a stub-class article. I added start-class because, in my view, start-class is a variant on stub-class and the two are not demonstrably different.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 21:03, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was speedy delete. This is A7-able as a BLP that makes no effort to establish notability.
ST47 (
talk) 00:58, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - Non-notable; no references; and as above, cannot find sources. As an unreferenced
WP:BLP should not have found its way to mainspace.
Eagleash (
talk) 00:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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A clear case of
WP:TOOSOON. Subject doesn't satisfy
WP:BIO, there aren't any in depth reliable sources. Most probably will be notable but suggest waiting at least a couple of years
Ceethekreator (
talk) 22:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete as it seems
WP:TOOSOON at this stage with no prominent roles in notable productions (having Wikipedia articles) and most of the sources in the article are from YouTube. She may well be notable in the future when an article may be created then, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 18:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete. It looks like her career is starting to get traction with the award win at the film festival and several upcoming larger roles. At this point, she just doesn't have the RS to meet
WP:SIGCOV. It can always be recreated later after more reviews of her performances are made.
4meter4 (
talk) 21:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete Yeah, um... no indication of notability here.ZXCVBNM (
TALK) 13:06, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Swamp Thing. It's a valid search term, and this target provides sufficient detail.
Argento Surfer (
talk) 16:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Swamp Thing - There are a few independent sources that mention the Parliament, mostly in regards to analysis of Alan Moore's writing. But, the mentions of the Parliament are brief, and do not really go beyond just a plot summary of what it was in the narrative of the Swamp Thing, which is not enough to support an independent article. That said, as a major part of the mythology of the character, and as it is already described in the target article, a redirect to the main Swamp Thing article would make sense as a valid search term.
Rorshacma (
talk) 17:04, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Redirect to
Ender's Game (novel series). As a major element of a notable book series, it is, at the very least, a plausible search term. Merging can be performed as necessary, though as this current article is sourced only to quotes from the books, I'm not sure how much here is worth really transferring over.
Rorshacma (
talk) 16:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. MBisanztalk 02:44, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The subject is insufficiently notable within his field. Almost all of the information is about the singer as a person and not as a singer -- such as where he lived and which Hasidic sect he used to belong to vs what he belongs to now, or attempting to highlight his success and notability based on the fact that he has a single out -- this does not make someone notable. Furthermore, information is from poorly substantiated website sources almost entirely relying on the singer's submitted CV to the sources in question. DRosenbach(
Talk |
Contribs) 20:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment The article clearly lists multiple albums and singles to his credit, so the point about a single being out seems irrelevant.
StonyBrook (
talk) 06:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep Passes
WP:SINGER: Multiple sources independent of the subject have reported about him, it being understandable that some (not all) of the sources are in Hebrew, which takes nothing away from the notability; it is being reported he is the 'heir to
Mordechai Ben David', a bold claim which I don't believe would be thrown around if there were no basis for it, which bolsters the impression that this isn't just another
flash-in-the-pan Hasidic singer.
StonyBrook (
talk) 06:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep Seems to pass
WP:SINGER : "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself." Article gives many sources which seem to show enough of a level of notability.
Adam Bernstein (
talk) 09:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:44, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Tagged for notability since 2010. Survived PROD in 2011 but I can't find anything to indicate notability.
Mccapra (
talk) 20:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - The subject is not notable per
WP:GNG. -
MA Javadi (
talk) 23:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - No significant coverage.
Expertwikiguy (
talk) 01:58, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Fails
WP:NSONG. No article for the artist, which isn't a reason in itself to delete this article, but there is literally nothing online about this song other than links to YouTube videos and online record stores and streaming websites, none of which confer notability. Might be
WP:TOOSOON and it's possible that either the artist or their forthcoming EP will be notable enough for an article, but right now there's nothing to support this song.
Richard3120 (
talk) 20:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: has now been speedily deleted under A9, so this AfD may be closed.
Richard3120 (
talk) 23:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. I will also be performing the move for which there is consensus as part of this discussion.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 03:24, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
This is a bit complicated, so bear with me. I was creating a short article today in response to a requested article at the rugby union wiki project for a player called
Justin Collins (rugby union). We already have an article at
Justin Collins for a different rugby league player (for the uninitiated, rugby union and rugby league are similar in name and practice but are actually entirely separate sports).
After completing the article, I took a closer look at the rugby league article and noticed that several facts about the rugby union player seem to have been inserted into the rugby league article, such as the birth date, birth place and physical dimensions. There are several confusing similarities between these two subjects: they both have the same name, they are both Australian by birth (though the rugby union player moved to New Zealand when he was 10 and has been there ever since); they both play a similar sport. I believe this has led to facts about the rugby union player being inserted in the rugby league player article without the authors realising what they were doing, creating a very confusing situation.
When I tried to look for some other sources to try and untangle this mess and find the real information for the rugby league article, I couldn’t find any reliable sources relating to the rugby league player. If he’s played for Hull FC as the article says then he would be notable if that were verifiable, but since I can’t verify it he fails the
WP:GNG.
ElAhrairahinspect damage⁄
berate 20:00, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I didn't realise that - lack of rugby league knowledge shining through. I agree with your suggestion. I'm inclined to believe the bio data relates to the rugby union player, the sources look solid.
ElAhrairahinspect damage⁄
berate 07:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep but move. The rugby league player is clearly notable and clearly a different person from the rugby union player. It's also clear that he goes by the name Steve, so the page should be moved to
Steve Collins (rugby league). --
Mkativerata (
talk) 10:08, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep but move to
Steve Collins (rugby league). There was some confusion in my mind when I initiated Justin Collins article this time last year; as the rugby league player appears to be known as both Justin and Steve in the hullfc.com reference, but apparently nowhere else. The date/place of birth appeared reasonable, as Tasmania is an island state of Australia not New Zealand, and so it gave initial credence to the date/place of birth being for the Australian rugby league player rather than the New Zealand rugby union player, but it now seems more likely to be conflated. I think we can all agree that neither the rugby league player or the rugby union player are;
Justin Lee Collins. Thanks to @
Boleyn: for directing me here.
DynamoDegsy (
talk) 20:28, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks for weighing in here. Very easy to get those two mixed up! I think the sources for the bio information of the rugby union player look pretty solid, so I've removed that information from the league article if that's ok.
ElAhrairahinspect damage⁄
berate 17:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was Speedy Delete. The article has already been deleted through CSD while the discussion remained on AfD.
Utopes (
talk) 00:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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I can't find any sources because the schools' website and pages where people review schools. It is mentioned a few time in articles about the town, but has no significant coverage. —
Naddruf (
talk ~
contribs) 19:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. Per reasons and potential sources to improve the article cited by
Tedder.
Grand'mere Eugene (
talk) 10:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment - I have added content and citations that I believe adequately establish notability for this stub article.
Grand'mere Eugene (
talk) 19:27, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep Following the additions by
Grand'mere Eugene, I then went and made a number of changes and additions such as adding an Infobox, NCES stats, expanded history, categories etc - see
this diff (added logo on next edit) No longer a stub now
Steven (Editor) (
talk) 05:29, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep I had looked at the article shortly after the AfD was created and saw an article that merited retention, but needed to be expanded with reliably and verifiably sourced material. That standard has been met with the article as it currently stands.
Alansohn (
talk) 12:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:43, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. Fails
WP:GNG because of lack of RS.
4meter4 (
talk) 21:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:43, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Apparently non-notable actor. His most significant role appears to have been in
Severance (film). Although he has appeared in other notable films, as far as I can tell his roles were bit-parts which do not help him qualify for
WP:NACTOR criterion 1. I see no evidence that the other two criteria are met. I can't find coverage in online-searchable RSs that is more than routine mentions. Severence is discussed in
this book but little is said about him; similarly
this news article is really about a film he produced. So I don't think he meets the
WP:GNG either. I don't see an obvious target for a redirect.
Wham2001 (
talk) 18:45, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete. Another fictional entry based on nothing but comic books.
Drmies (
talk) 20:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect At the very least. Why would we delete this rather than redirect,
TTN? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 23:12, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The content is all in-universe, so there is no need to merge. I have no objection to a new redirect after deletion, but I honestly think it's pointless considering the scope of DC's completely literal tens of thousands of characters.
TTN (
talk) 23:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:42, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment - Not only is this nothing but completely in-universe summaries sourced only to the works of fiction themselves, but a whole lot of this is
WP:SYNTH and
WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, with some of it actually not even being correct. I have not yet looked to see if there are any actual legitimate, secondary sources that discuss vampires in King's works as a whole (as opposed to just on individual vampires like
Kurt Barlow) in more than just terms of plot summary that would give the topic notability, but even if there are, the vast bulk of the current article needs to be removed and completely re-written.
Rorshacma (
talk) 19:12, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete - After actually looking for sources, I haven't found enough on the topic that would support an article. There are plenty of sources on individual works of King's that feature vampires (largely
Salem's Lot and
American Vampire), but I have only found one actually decent source that discusses the concept of vampires in his work as a whole, that also features in-depth analysis that goes beyond plot summary, which is
here. While it, alone, is a great source, its the only one I was able to find. Others, like
this one, looked promising at first, as it seemed to have a whole essay on the subject, but then actually reading the essay itself revealed that its about vampires in fiction in general, barely mentions Stephen King's work, and when it does, only talks about Salem's Lot. So, in the end, there was only the one, good source, that talks about Stephen King's use of vampires as a whole, which is not enough. All the other sources are discussions about individual books or stories on their own, so combining them to support this article would just be
WP:SYNTH.
Rorshacma (
talk) 19:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Non-notable. What sources are available are name drops. Fails WP:BIO and WP:SIGCOV. Not independent or in-depth scope_creepTalk 17:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The article is terrible, a resume stub, and more than half the sources need to be thrown out--primary, casual mentions, etc. But he's listed and gets a few sentences in that Oxford Handbook, and that should tip him over the edge. I'm going with weak keep.
Drmies (
talk) 20:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes substantial pruning of sources is needed, but recent additions have established notability. The article just needs time and effort for improvements. keepYaxu (
talk) 22:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep, on the weak side, as above. The Oxford Handbook of Algorithmic Music has a solid paragraph. He's quoted bythe British Library blog
here.
The Times mentions him here but I cannot get past the paywall to see in what depth. Minor
coverage in MixMag. There are a few others, which overall mean he's slightly notable.
ThatMontrealIP (
talk) 23:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment Well spotted, well done. Withdrawn. scope_creepTalk 00:01, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Speedy Keep Just one of the biggest murder investigations in the UK, and an incident revealing issues of port crossings from Europe to the UK a week before Brexit.
Yeah, no notability whatsoever.
Kingsif (
talk) 17:26, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep I am confused on why you are citing
WP:RECENTISM as the very section says "Just wait and see. Remember
there is no deadline, and
consensus can change later on. Editors writing today do not have a historical perspective on today's events, and
should not pretend to have a crystal ball. This is especially true during a news spike, when there is mass interest to create and update articles on a current event, regardless of whether it may be historically significant later on. Also, editors updating an article affected by a current event may not necessarily be the same ones participating months (or even years) later in the clean-up and maintenance of the page. Above all else, editors should avoid getting into
edit wars or contentious deletion discussions when trying to deal with recentism." As in this is meant to be used for articles that are slanted towards recent events later down the line. As for
WP:NOTNEWS, a large death count has led to broad coverage. I would wait at least a week before revisiting deletion here. -
Knowledgekid87 (
talk) 17:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Snow keep - close this AfD due to being ridiculous. An organised, international gang killed 39 people together. This is similar to the
2000 Dover incident - both are very historically notable.
Jim Michael (
talk) 17:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep This is a definite keep. There are organized crime implications that are probably international.
50.111.3.59 (
talk) 17:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep - too early to tell about lasting notability. all I know is that it is notable now per WP;GNG.
BabbaQ (
talk) 18:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was no consensus. MBisanztalk 02:42, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Bottom line is that this is a likely
WP:FRINGE concept (ethnic group) that fails
WP:GNG. This group has been discussed by amateur scholar
Władysław Szulist (who has no pl wikipedia article, and is likely not notable). As far as I can tell (and I search for Polish term for this group too), nobody else has discussed this ethnic group, and the terms are not even used in passing and his work is virtually uncited. The publications are also very obscure: one book published by local museum, and one article is obscure Polish language minor academic journal. As such, this seems like a fringe theory - there is no academic consensus that this group exists (the few other sources used in the article are even worse, like someone's family's homepage). At best this may deserve a sentence or two in
Kaszubians#Diaspora, so a soft delete and merge might be an option, through I am still unsure if Szulist work is reliable enough to be cited (it's rather borderline). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 13:58, 14 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete we do not need articles advancing fringe theories on ethnicity.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 20:32, 19 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. The term is used in passing in Chicago Churches and Synagogues: An Architectural Pilgrimage,George Lane, Loyola University Press, 1981; A Kashubian idiolect in the United States by Jan Louis Perkowski, Indiana University Press, 1969; Polish Genealogical Society of Wisconsin, 1995, page 5; and The Prayer of St. Hyacinth Parish, Detroit, Michigan ; Michael A. Krʹolewski, St. Hyacinth Parish, 1984. Ethnicities are generally notable.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:43, 22 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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ミラP 17:01, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep If
Kashubians is deemed to be an encyclopedic topic, then this should logically be kept as an appropriate
WP:SPINOFF.
StonyBrook (
talk) 06:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Deleted per G5.
Drmies (
talk) 20:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Blatantly promotional. Declined G11 (for some reason) and moved to draft, then moved back by a sock with no improvement. DePRODed by an anonymous account that added promotional sources only covering the topic in a passing matter.
Etzedek24(
I'll talk at ya) (
Check my track record) 16:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The G11 was declined and the article moved back to draft space--that's a good enough reason. But G5 applies here, given the history.
Drmies (
talk) 20:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
RL0919 (
talk) 17:09, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:40, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Fails
WP:MUSICBIO,
WP:BIO,
WP:SIGCOV. Low fan count on Youtube. It has a combination of borderline notability and clear promotionalism, including the sale of music on WP. scope_creepTalk 12:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC) scope_creepTalk 12:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 15:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment - he's not really notable except for working with other bands. Can this be merged or redirected?
Bearian (
talk) 21:11, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Hi Bearian, could do. I see it has been open for ages. I usually trust your judgement but I'm not doing the work for merge and I don't think there is anybody available, hence the lack of discussion. I propose a redirect. It would seem to be the sensible approach. scope_creepTalk 21:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. Fails
WP:SIGCOV. There really isn't an obvious redirect because he has mainly worked as a session musician with a variety of groups. Redirecting to anyone is not really helpful.
4meter4 (
talk) 22:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was soft delete.
WP:REFUND applies. No previous deletion attempts and no objections (or other commentary) after two weeks.
RL0919 (
talk) 17:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
Drmies (
talk) 20:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
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Delete. The website garnered only minor and fleeting attention. There doesn't appear to be any significant coverage to establish notability.
Slideshow Bob (
talk) 18:02, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
RL0919 (
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RL0919 (
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Delete - private school now closed, difficult to write a full article.
Bearian (
talk) 21:14, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. NACADEMIC explicitly suggests it is an alternative to GNG - however it still requires verifiable evidence. Several editors have commented, to varying degrees, that Ansari, might be notable under NACADEMIC but none have attempted to show this with verifiable evidence. As such the consensus of those editors suggesting Ansari is not notable holds.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 02:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)reply
This Article on Zoe Ansari, is an important addition to Wikipedia. I will highly appreciate if you give me some time to complete this article. This article should not be deleted. Kindly read the Progressive Writer's movement page. His name was already there but no page linking to it. He was a great writer and translator. It is because of him the south Asian community got a better introduction with Russian literature and Literary criticism. Thanks in anticipation.
Khadem Hussain, India. (
talk) 14:42, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
We need some RS saying all this, I found none.
Slatersteven (
talk) 14:45, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment I have found one source, an article in Pakistaniaat: A Journal of Pakistan Studies, which compares Ansari's translation of Russian texts with another Urdu translation. There are some other English language sources which have some information about him or his work. I think there are likely to be more sources about him in Urdu, though. Some of the references in the Urdu Wikipedia article might be useful (though the first, although published in a reliable source, is an obituary/reflection on his death by someone who knew him well, and probably doesn't meet WP:RS requirements). Perhaps there are other obituaries, however, and certainly there are more sources than are currently in the article.
RebeccaGreen (
talk) 17:51, 22 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
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Delete no notability; poor sources.
Strandvue (
talk) 00:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Do not Delete. The article definitely needs rigorous work, but it does not deserve to be deleted. I am trying to find out details of his PhD as well. I have just added a line about his contribution to the study of an Indian-Persian Poet. Zoe Ansari is a figure, who is overlooked despite his encyclopaedic contributions. Instead of a discussion on deletion, there should a discussion on improving this article. Thanks to all you senior editors.
Khademhussain (
talk) 15:47, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
You say it yourself, he has been overlooked, we have articles on people who have not been overlooked.
Slatersteven (
talk) 17:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I am not sure what you think this proves.
Slatersteven (
talk) 18:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
What I mean is. Simply producing a small biographical account on here, wouldn't hurt. It will be beneficial to those who are researches and students of both Urdu and Russian literature or comparative literature or world literature. Plus, his urdu page already exists, so I see no reason, to delete this, small account. (to be improved of course)
Khademhussain (
talk) 18:25, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I understand that, I read
wp:rs. I have since then updated the article and added various RS. The link I sent above is of an urdu poet who's page is on Wikipedia and he has no notability. That page should be deleted.
Khademhussain (
talk) 19:16, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Maybe, but that is irrelevant here.
Slatersteven (
talk) 19:21, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Definitely, agreed. What do you think of the
Zoe Ansari added references now?
Khademhussain (
talk) 19:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
In reverse order
A WIND OF CHANGE, cannot check.
"The Debate on Amir Khusrau's "Inventions" in Hindustani Music", Journal of the Indian Musicological Society cannot check.
Music and Society in North India: From the Mughals to the Mutiny. cannot check
But as they are not about him, and you give the full article page numbers (and in one case the fist page does not mention him) I cannot help but wonder of these are all just passing mentions.
http://nyazamana.com is a review, so might be OK, but I see no byline by anyone whose view might be notable, and may be a comments page.
Youtube is not an RS.
Can you link to two in depth RS about him here on the AFD?
Slatersteven (
talk) 09:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment I am finding a lot of academic peer reviewed journal articles, doctoral theses, and academic books that cite Zoe Ansari. I am not finding any sources about Zoe Ansari. The number of publications citing the author though make me wonder if he might pass
WP:NACADEMIC.
4meter4 (
talk) 22:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep I just did a cursory search through Google Books. This writer is mentioned many times in scholarly texts related to the literature and politics of South Asia. This article definitely needs to be re-worked, preferably by an expert on the subject.
Lovelylinda1980 (
talk) 22:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
Edit: all of the sources I can access have been put in the table. Still not seeing the significant coverage required to be considered notable. SITH(talk) 12:30, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
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Fails
WP:NALBUM, having no sources at all, and no reliable sources found online, just the usual non-RS sites for metal bands such as Spirit of Metal and Metal Archives. All the articles related to the band were recently created by a SPA and have borderline notability, but this fails outright without any sources. Redirect not really an option as the EP name is the same as the band.
Richard3120 (
talk) 15:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete due to a lack of coverage in third-party, reliable sources. I agree that a redirect would probably be quite silly as a person who starts to enter the title into the search bar would easily be able to find the article on the band before they type out the (EP) part.
Aoba47 (
talk) 15:42, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete This article clearly fails the notability test for albums but also general notability. There just isn't anything here to make an encyclopedia article out of.
Lovelylinda1980 (
talk) 22:13, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete Trivial. No independent sources.
Lard Almighty (
talk) 15:05, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Consensus that content is purely in-universe without showing notability, as well as being an unneeded content fork from the individual/series articles.
Nosebagbear (
talk) 15:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Non-notable collection of in-universe
WP:PLOT only details. The details about one planet being in the top ten of naming a celestial body are completely trivial. There is a main series article and five novel articles, so there should be no issue describing the necessary context of the relevant locations in each individual page.
TTN (
talk) 13:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete Before looking at the state of the article I was thinking that maybe one or two of these had potential, but not after looking at it. I don't see anything that can be rescued to the series pages' that isn't already covered there in the narrative. --
Masem (
t) 14:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: No one will take up the challenge to repair this should it be deleted. The legacy of this deletion will be a swarm of redlinks. Serendipodous 11:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
It would need a full rewrite regardless to comply with Wikipedia standards. But surely fine details about the planets of a fictional work are not super necessary to understand that work.ZXCVBNM (
TALK) 12:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:38, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
List of in-universe
WP:PLOT only details with no sources to establish notability. There's some 40+ novels in these series, along with three individual series pages. That is plenty to summarize the proper context of the main locations of each setting and the relevant locations of each individual novel.
TTN (
talk) 13:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete- I actually quite like the Foundation series, but this is vast, sprawling, unsourced fancruft that belongs on a Wikia.
ReykYO! 18:15, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete Per nom and Reyk.ZXCVBNM (
TALK) 19:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Enough with the fictional planets lists already!
Clarityfiend (
talk) 08:10, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect to the article for the series. Some of the information might be merged over there if not already.
DreamFocus 15:32, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was Draftify.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 03:26, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
PROD contested by article creator, no reason given. Fails
WP:GNG (no significant coverage) and
WP:NFOOTBALL (has never played in a
fully-professional league and doesn't look like doing so any time soon). Article should be deleted; can be restored if/when he is notable.
GiantSnowman 12:13, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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GiantSnowman 12:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Drinan is on a professional contract in a professional league in Sweden at the moment. He's on loan from Ipswich Town where he's also on a professional contract and has been on other pro contracts at Waterford and Cork. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Supersaints2014 (
talk •
contribs)
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Drafity He might be in a professional team which doesn't mean automatically make it as a Wikipedia page. Looking through the references, I see that most of them are basically the norm with transfers and match reports so you can't really deemed to be notable there. For me I would say to move it to draft as the Superettan season is finishing up and we will see what Ipswich Town do with this player.
HawkAussie (
talk) 23:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Clarification Requested: This person seems to have appeared in games for teams in the League of Ireland and in Superettan. This would seem to qualify under NFOOTBALL, assuming those leagues count as "fully professional". Are these leagues not "fully professional"?
Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 01:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: @
Eggishorn:WP:FPL states that the Superettan and the League of Ireland is not a professional league which would have the player fail due to that. But because they are contracted to Ipswich Town which is in the English Championship that is why I voted for drafity.
HawkAussie (
talk) 02:00, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
In that case, I agree that Draftify is the correct action. Thank you, @
HawkAussie:, for the information.
Eggishorn(talk)(contrib) 02:08, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Little-known film with no remarkable actors. Questionable sources also found within article, not sure if the award is good enough to prove notability? Suspected originally created by film creator as a way of self-promotion. Nightfury 10:01, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. I wish the folks behind this film the best of luck, but there's just not sufficient coverage for notability (as Wikipedia defines it). Neither of the film festival awards are sufficient to confer notability. They are both small, recently established festivals (2 years each), with little external attention. CIFF in particular openly advertises the large number of award categories as a draw for filmmakers to enter films into competition there (because that makes a larger percentage of the field into winners, of course), and the award at Fameus is effectively a third place award. These do not satisfy
NFILM #3. And beyond the minor festivals, the closest thing to a reliable source is
this snippet of an article, which is really just a vehicle for the trailer. I can't find any full reviews in the industry media, just a scant handful of user-submitted opinions that don't meet project standards.
Squeamish Ossifrage (
talk) 21:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
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Delete - I see a lot of press releases and routine industry coverage, but not much of the sort needed for
WP:CORPDEPTH. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 02:36, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. MBisanztalk 02:37, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment:
Meeanaya what is your
WP:BEFORE assessment of the discussion and the sources identified in the previous AfD which led to its Keep conclusion?
AllyD (
talk) 17:33, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't see why this AfD should succeed where the last one failed. The sourcing is decent enough. Keep.
Drmies (
talk) 20:55, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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article has been tagged with "may not meet notability guideline" since 2012. So let's have the discussion - what makes him notable enough for a Wikipedia article?
Quakewoody (
talk) 15:05, 8 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep - easily passes
my standards for notable lawyers: lauded in a
reliable source as a "having a reputation" in his field, trustee of major charities, "service on a major bar association committee or section", etc. I found
this list that mentions his bar presidency.
Bearian (
talk) 19:26, 9 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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feminist (
talk) 02:07, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak keep a bit more work is needed it references--
Dreerwin (
talk) 03:42, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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RL0919 (
talk) 12:10, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak keep Obituaries do count as RS when they are journalist written and unpaid for, which is the case here. The substantial obit in the Los Angeles Times is compelling, and the fact that other newspapers chose to print the obit or write their own on a national scale is further evidence that this is a notable person. This is enough coverage to just barely meet
WP:GNG.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:58, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was merge to
Nivedita Menon. This is, as
Madness points out, a difficult nomination to close. XfD, though seeking a generation of consensus, is not a vote, and assertions of notability that fall short of the requirement of in-depth coverage in multiple independent sources, or assertions that notability will be discovered in the future can not be weighed in favor of a subject. With respect to
WBG's concern that BLPs should not point to other BLPs, that is a valid concern, but the subject in this case is already mentioned in the proposed target article, and asserted familial relationship between the BLPs does not appear to be in controversy. Even if there were no discussion here, the proposed target article would be the natural redirect target for the term. Of course, this close is without prejudice to the article being restored should sufficient sources be found.
bd2412T 20:24, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete does not meet the general notability guidelines.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep I added a little more information about her activism and her artistic work (film and standup). She passes GNG.
Megalibrarygirl (
talk) 20:54, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
GNG necessitates multiple instances of significant coverage. She gets a host of trivial mentions (mainly as general acknowledgments of help in scholarly publications) but barring an interview over a city-supplementary of the Hindu (
which FWIW, are almost always paid-for), am not seeing remotely anything like that. FWIW, Plainspeak ain't a RS. You are requested to provide the specific sources that lends to GNG and quote the exact passages.
∯WBGconverse 06:38, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
LiveMint is an RS. The Hindu is an RS (and unless you can definitively show this one was paid, then don't say it was.) Why do you feel that Plainspeak not an RS? It's a digital magazine with submission guidelines, etc. It's not a blog. All of her "mentions" in scholarly publications are pretty significant indicating a person that's respected in her field. All put together add up to GNG.
Megalibrarygirl (
talk) 23:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
You can't ever definitely prove that something was paid (follow the link, in case you thought that it was just me!) but interviews/coverage in metro supplements are almost-always paid (and they don't really carry colorful banners proclaiming they are paid).
Pray provide some of those significant mentions in scholarly sources. (Quote the paragraphs, please.)
The Mint (merely) has a review of their work.
∯WBGconverse 13:18, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Preferably Merge to
Nivedita Menon and mention there in the family section. The problem here is largely because the few articles in (reliable) Indian media are all interviews. Not that I have anything against interviews, but I think we should not use them for notability since it is not really a third person's view. Some of the other sources like Plainspeak are not really reliable sources, it is actually the website of an NGO. I have known about Pramada Menon's work since a while and she has done some good work; unfortunately most of it is behind the scenes which is perhaps not flashy or sensational enough to be covered in media. There is a good chance though that in the coming years there could be coverage about their work. Perhaps a good solution right now would be to merge some of the information into the article of
Nivedita Menon under the family section and not outright delete the article. I cannot support an outright keep here, so a merge would be best--
DreamLinker (
talk) 08:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Agree on all aspects. But, am very skeptical about redirecting BLPs to other BLPs ...
∯WBGconverse 13:27, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak keep per the work done by Megalibrarygirl, which seems to point a bit more towards notability. DreamLinker's points, too, are solid, making this a close and difficult decision. MadnessDarkness 23:11, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep It may not fulfill the notability issues for now, but it can improved in the coming days. It can be further expanded and the article is available in other languages as well. Despite the issues, I would still prefer to keep this.
Abishe (
talk) 14:19, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
You might take a look at
WP:AADD. Thanks for saying It may not fulfill the notability issues for now; once she fulfills, we can recreate her article
for we are not a crystal-ball.
∯WBGconverse 15:07, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Consensus that individual isn't notable, including a !vote after the addition of more info
Nosebagbear (
talk) 11:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Subject is a American rapper. A
WP:BEFORE found only sources from Pinterest, Soundcrowd, Spotify, social media and noting about her on indepedent, reliable sources to indicate she passes
WP:GNG or
WP:MUSICBIO.
CASSIOPEIA(
talk) 10:55, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
RL0919 (
talk) 11:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Last AFD closed as withdrawn and
WP:G12 tagged, but the creator is going through OTRS to donate the material, so bringing it back here. ~~ OxonAlex- talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete There are a large number of issues with this article, including
WP:PROMO, and with
WP:YOUNGATH I don't think we typically include articles about youth school sports clubs.
SportingFlyerT·C 10:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep My article merely discusses the history of a football team and its accomplishments. I don't understand how this may be considered advertising or promoting. As for notoriety, there are several references listed to prove the validity of my article. A comment was made about generally not hosting material about "youth sports." My article focuses on the sport of football, regardless of its level of competition. Please reconsider instating my article. Another interesting fact, it is my understanding that this website is in need of art or graphic designs. I can contribute a vast amount of this work through my article, if given the opportunity. Is history not one of the top subjects on this site? That is all I wanted to share in this community.
BigRed66 (
talk) 16:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Create a fan website page for it on your own or ask the school if you can contribute to their website.
tedder (
talk) 09:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment Not optimum at all; there are nine other Lakewood High Schools in the United States, and we aren't going to redirect to one while cutting those other nine out. Nate•(
chatter) 20:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Good point. With such a common school name, I guess there's no logical redirect target.
Ejgreen77 (
talk) 06:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. Perhaps a few sentences can be merged into the main article. I'm not confident a redirect is even necessary.
tedder (
talk) 09:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. Promotional piece, not notable separate from Lakewood High School.
Grand'mere Eugene (
talk) 10:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete Not notable sports team.
WP:PROMO also applies.
...William, is the complaint department really on
the roof? 13:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete clearly non-notable team. The sentence "The purpose of this newest web site is to bring to the forefront the proud tradition and history of Lancer football" also suggests a lack of understanding of the concept/purpose of Wikipedia --
ChrisTheDude (
talk) 14:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment "Notability" here is defined as accomplishment recognition, and clearly there are notable professional alumni listed in the article. This is far from a promotional piece. It merely focuses on the history and achievements of a football team. If it's a simple phrase about a proud tradition, it can be removed.
BigRed66 (
talk) 02:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately, almost the entire article is full of
weasel words and promotional language, it would need a full rewrite to conform to Wikipedia's writing standards. The fact that notable professional athletes played for this team when they were children is not enough to merit inclusion on this website (per
WP:NTEAM). Eagles24/7(C) 02:21, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Eagles247: Would you mind directing me to an example of what is an acceptable sports team article? Almost all of the current football articles hosted here mention an enormous amount of history, which is what I'm trying to do with my piece.
BigRed66 (
talk) 02:32, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The history isn't the problem, it's the notability of the actual subject being described as well as the language used in general.
Maryland Terrapins football, 1892–1946 is recognized as a
good article on Wikipedia if you are looking for an example of encyclopedic writing practices. I've also added some templates in this article to highlight sentences that use
weasel words. Eagles24/7(C) 02:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Eagles247: I noticed the highlights. Thanks for pointing them out. I'll have a look at Maryland's page for more insite.
BigRed66 (
talk) 03:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Just to make clear, simply re-writing the article (and, as commented above, it would require a near-total re-write if kept) will not in and of itself resolve the major problem, which is the notability of the subject. WP's notability guidelines specifically state the following: "High school and pre-high school athletes are notable only if they have received substantial and prolonged coverage that is (1) independent of the subject and (2) clearly goes beyond routine coverage." So you would need to be able to demonstrate that the team has received extensive coverage in independent news media, books, etc, which goes beyond simply noting the team's results. If such coverage doesn't exist then I don't think there's any chance of the article being kept --
ChrisTheDude (
talk) 19:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
ChrisTheDude: You mentioned media coverage. I've listed several references to validate that point. Can you clarify what you mean by "routine coverage?" The updated article mentions extensive coverage of the team's coach, which is independent of the subject I would say.
BigRed66 (
talk) 21:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
To which reference(s) do you refer? I can't see any references currently in the article which contain "extensive coverage of the team's coach". And to answer your question, routine coverage in the context of sport essentially mentions reporting on games. So if a newspaper runs a short report on each of the team's games the following morning, that's routine coverage. So there needs to be evidence of coverage more in-depth than that --
ChrisTheDude (
talk) 22:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment@
BigRed66: You have clearly spent lots of time researching and writing about the Lakewood football team, and your passion for your subject is obvious. I respect your sportscaster perspective, with the history laid out almost like a play-by-play report. For Wikipedia writing, however, it fails on several important counts: first, and most importantly, the subject matter fails at the elemental level because we do not publish articles about young athletes unless their coverage in reliable sources is beyond routine. Think sources like Sports Illustrated,Sporting News. ESPN Magazine, and not just mentions on a list, but significant coverage. When was the last time any of those publications covered a high school team? They might cover an outstanding individual high schooler, such as
LeBron James, or other
prep-to-pro player, but high school teams very rarely will make the cut. Secondly, the article lacks an encyclopedic tone, because it reflects your passion for your team, written almost like the second broadcaster in the booth who provides interesting commentary on the action. By contrast, the tone of the encyclopedia is more subdued, less flashy, less hyperbolic. Think dull as dirt, without any promotional verbiage whatsoever. If you want to contribute to
Lakewood High School (California), consider adding an "External link" to your website at the bottom of that article. As writers and editors, we appreciate your effort, but in this instance you have just missed the mark entirely. —
Grand'mere Eugene (
talk) 00:45, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, and do not redirect. The creator of this clearly worked very hard on this and should look to finding a host, but we are specifically
not a website host. Oh, and
Grand'mere Eugene, we specially discourage adding links to pages like this in
school article guidelines. Sorry. An encyclopedia article is built of information paraphrased from reliable secondary sources. There are only a couple articles on high school football programs in the US. These cover schools that have programs 125 + years old that have been the subject of multiple full length books.
John from Idegon (
talk) 20:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 10:16, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Al-Anwar Club, I don't know if a redirect is necessary, seems rather generic in name.
Govvy (
talk) 10:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep it's too early to delete it . I already add source and i will adding more media just waiting to visit the place.
Slayym (
talk) 16:23, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete.
RL0919 (
talk) 11:53, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Poorly sourced BLP. Fails GNG, BASIC, ANYBIO, and BLP. Also, may be a
WP:COATRACK to publicize negative information. I removed poorly sourced negative BLP material - see diff here -
[1]Steve Quinn (
talk) 09:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. MBisanztalk 02:35, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Notability is questionable, most of the appearance are special guests, lacks significant discussion of the subject in multiple reliable sources, fails
WP:GNG.
Meeanaya (
talk) 06:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: I never know what to do about articles on Colombian radio and TV "personalities"... most of them are similar to this one, in that you can find sources for the university studies and internship mentioned in the lead
[2] her two husbands and children, and living and working in Miami
[3],
[4] or her entry into the world of YouTubers
[5]. All the sources in the article are reliable ones, mostly well-established national newspapers. Ms. Maya is certainly a well known personality in Colombia, but I understand the nominator's concerns that despite the sources the article just adds up to a lot of fluff – sadly, this is exactly the depth of reporting you will get in Colombia for most people involved in the entertainment business, and there are dozens of articles on Colombian TV presenters and soap opera stars which will never be any better than this one, because it's all on the level of Hello! magazine. But there's no question that the sources in the article and mentioned above are reliable ones.
Richard3120 (
talk) 12:22, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep as there is significant reliable sources coverage directly about her as detailed above. While she does not pass
WP:NACTOR she found fame as a model and that is where the main claims of significance are, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 18:18, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep per Atlantic306.
4meter4 (
talk) 20:12, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. While there is a lack of clarity as to the existence of the film, there is clear consensus that it lacks notability
Nosebagbear (
talk) 11:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, I think? This is a weird one. It
completed production in 2011. Varietyannounced plans in 2012 to package distribution with another Cameron Romero / Tom Sizemore film, Auteur. And then... not much. Auteur was picked up for distribution and
released in 2014, although I'm not super confident that it's notable either. My guess is that the package deal with Radical didn't get traction with the eventual Auteur distributor (Music Video Distributors). IMDb claims a 2017 release date for Radical without any sort of sourcing or confirmation; FilmAffinity claims a 2011 release date with no more evidence... but I'm pretty sure that one is just wrong. In any case, and despite the obnoxiously false-positive-laden title, I can't find any reliable reviews of this film or other reportage following the 2011 quick takes. I think the nominator was right to suspect that this was never actually released, and I think equally correct that it isn't notable. It might be worth a redirect and quick mention in
Cameron Romero's article, except we don't have one of those.
Squeamish Ossifrage (
talk) 21:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete as whether or not it has been released there is a lack of coverage, for example there are no external reviews at IMDb and no entry at all at Rotten Tomatoes, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 18:13, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was keep. MBisanztalk 02:35, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep Plenty of
WP:RS, significantly covering the subject to pass
WP:GNG. Just look at the list of references. I cleaned up the page a while ago so it is less promotional, but I don't see why this fails
WP:NCORP. Thanks,
Willbb234Talk (please {{
ping}} me in replies) 08:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: I made up my mind to write an article about Armoured One after seeing its team being invited on many News shows to discuss on school shootings and how to deal with it. The article is thoroughly cited and meets the
WP:GNG,
WP:RS — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Abdul.kanchwala (
talk •
contribs) 14:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. Not sure why this was nominated for deletion under this rationale as the article contains plenty of sources to meet
WP:SIGCOV.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete as original research.
Mccapra (
talk) 11:34, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge to the article on the town. The information will need a source; ref 2 would appearto be suchasource. The links do not work, but that does not mean that plain information such as this is not sourceable. We do not remove articles because of dead links unless we are sure there is no other possible source . . DGG (
talk ) 21:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge to the article on the town per DGG.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Delete original research.
Mccapra (
talk) 11:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete I would have voted merge to the village but the article is Original Research without any reference. Appears that squares with this name are in several Gujarati cities.
[6] In any case this does not appear to merit a seperate article, at best a paragraph in the village article, but a reliable source will still be needed. --DBigXrayᗙ 16:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge. thei nformation will need sourcing, but there is no deadline. DGG (
talk ) 21:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Merge per DGG.
4meter4 (
talk) 19:50, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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How Geoland applies here? It’s not disputed territory or any type of the legally recognised place. If you can see the source then it’s of district authority office and you’ll find no mention of it except name of village. Read
WP:JUSTA.—Harshil want to talk? 11:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I think
Mccapra means the GEOLAND statement of "Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc." §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 15:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes thank you that’s what I meant.
Mccapra (
talk) 17:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
But clearly it’s not provided here. The lake is not famous to have significant coverage in books or news about its history or geography. —Harshil want to talk? 17:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
As a geographical feature it doesn’t need significant coverage. Many articles about lakes, reservoirs etc. on Wikipedia don’t.
Mccapra (
talk) 19:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. The lake exists, so the criteria listed on
WP:GEOLAND apply.
Utopes (
talk) 01:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. a geographical feature does not have to be famousto be notable, ; the assumption is that if it has sources for more than a map reference or a population figure, that it is notable . Thebasis for this is the statement in the most fundamental of all our rules,
WP:5, that WP has some of the characteristics of a gazetteer. DGG (
talk ) 09:12, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
DGG: here’s simple
google search. Most of the results are of wiki mirror site. No references has been found about this lake. I’m resident of the near by place and just living 10 kms near and I even never heard it. If you can find it in any book then you can cite it here.—Harshil want to talk? 09:35, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Harshil169,
WP:OUTCOMES is interesting reading - it's a breakdown of typical outcomes of deletion discussions.
WP:MAPOUTCOMES covers geographical features, and it's fairly widely accepted that articles about lakes are kept, even if they aren't notable in a GNG sort of way. I also think this is a keep, based on what I'm seeing at the article. Cheers
GirthSummit (blether) 11:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete as the information in the article cannot be verified as expected in
WP:V. I am not able to find any information about this lake (despite trying "Moti lake", "Moti talao", "Moti talav"). There are a bunch of other lakes in India with the same name. Other than Google maps, I don't see any mention of this lake. I suspect that the lake is not an officially named lake. I understand that many others are invoking
WP:GEOLAND, however information has to be verifiable. If I cannot even verify the name of the lake, I don't see why Wikipedia should keep what could be a potentially incorrect article.--
DreamLinker (
talk) 18:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Exactly
DreamLinker! That’s what I was saying to the people who wrote keep. Here’re key points of WP:GEOLAND and here’s how it fails
Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist.
Is any information about this lake is available in public domain? N
Are statistics even available with us? N
The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article.
Is there any verifiable content available in books or newspapers? N
Do locals living near the place are aware of this lake? N
Do Google shows any result about the place and information in reliable sources? N
Comment: I’m pinging @
Nizil Shah,
Gazal world, and
KartikMistry: as they’re residents of Gujarat and can have idea of notability of this place and comment well. In extra, pinging
DBigXray as he commented on my consecutive AfDs in which articles were created by same createor. You can read the above comments to know more about issue. —Harshil want to talk? 03:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment If you follow the coordinates given in the article you can see the lake on Google maps. If you search for ‘Moti talav’ you’ll see pictures of it, (there are pics on Wikipedia Commons) plus
1,
2,
3 and plenty of others. Thanks.
Mccapra (
talk) 03:58, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Mccapra: I can just laugh at these search results. These are for Sawantwadi, Maharashtra not for Bhat, Gujarat for which article is nominated for deletion. If you can google then distance between them is 1042 kilometers which is more than distance between Chicago to NY. Please do proper search. --Harshil want to talk? 04:07, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
ok that deserves a laugh.
Mccapra (
talk) 04:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Well I’ve thought about that and decided not to. When I search for Moti Lake in Gujarat I get one passing mention in a research paper and not much else, but my keep !vote was not based on a misidentification of this lake with another - I only went and searched just now. My keep !vote was based on Wikipedia being a gazetteer of geographical features. I’ve spent many happy hours deorphaning articles about lakes of the same size as this in France and Germany. There are hundreds of them, and for most we have no more by way of sourcing than we have for Moti Lake. On this basis I’ve decided to leave my !vote as it is.
Mccapra (
talk) 04:36, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete and information merged in village article. According to
WP:GEOLAND, Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes... lakes... The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the feature can instead be included in a more general article on local geography. I tried hard in English and local Gujarati language. Only information I can find is there is a reservoir lake (અનુશ્રવણ તળાવ) in Bhat village with size of 0.16 cubic and 2 metere depth Source:
Ahmedabad district site No. 103 in list. In Google Maps, I can see two other lakes (one being tagged Vasdar Talav and other not tagged). The listed reservoir lake could any one of these three lakes. The person who created the article created many articles on Bhat village for each and every small feature of the village. There is also a serious chance that the lake does not have any name and the creator himself named it Moti lake. Or at best the people living near it calling it Moti lake. There no sources available for Moti lake and is unlikely to expand beyond a sentence in future. There is no point in keeping this article only because it is a lake. Regards,-
Nizil (
talk) 06:20, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
CommentHarshil169 First, can I check whether you're familiar with the guidelines on
canvassing? I'm not saying you've broken them with your pings above, since it could be argued that you pinged the people you did because they are known for their expertise in this field, which would be appropriate notification, I'm merely mentioning it in case it wasn't something you were aware of - pinging specific editors from deletion discussions is sometimes interpreted as an attempt to improperly affect the outcome of the discussion.
You'll see that I've struck my keep vote above, based on the arguments you've put forward, and on Nizil's comments above. I have not done an exhaustive search for sourcing myself, but based on what Nizil is saying the best option might be to Mergewhat content we can into an article about the region or area the lake is in, and redirect this title to that article. Users with better local knowledge than me would be better placed than I am to suggest which article that should be -
Bhat seems like a possible candidate, a short line about this lake might be added to the 'Geography' section there, perhaps referenced to the research paper that
Mccapra identified (a passing reference should be enough to support an assertion that the lake exists). Cheers
GirthSummit (blether) 09:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Changing mind again per latest discussion
No, I know about canvassing and thus, I pinged three users who are living in near place like I am so that their opinion matters. And I pinged all of those first who voted here. And article you’ve linked is of community not of village. Best article is
Bhat, Daskroi. —Harshil want to talk? 10:53, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Harshil169, OK, no probs - just wanted to make sure you were aware. You're much better placed than me to determine the best redirect target, I'll bow to your judgement there. Cheers
GirthSummit (blether) 11:53, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't think I can support a merge/redirect because the name of the lake itself is unreferenced.--
DreamLinker (
talk) 18:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
DreamLinker, I think Mccapra said further up that they had found a source that mentioned it (albeit in passing) -
Mccapra, could you post a link to that so we can see whether it would support a merge?
GirthSummit (blether) 17:10, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Girth Summit: here’s what Mccapra has to say for their source. ok that deserves a laugh. Revisit convo. —Harshil want to talk? 17:42, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Harshil169, No, it was later in the conversation, they said it mentioned a Lake Moti in Ghujarat. It would be worth checking that.
GirthSummit (blether) 17:46, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment yes I found
this (see page 4 just above figure 2) though on rereading it, although it’s in Gujarat, I’m not completely sure it’s the same place.
Mccapra (
talk) 02:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Mccapra: Again, I’ll mildly these time laugh at your search result.😁
Pavagadh is 167.4 kilometres away from the place which is mentioned here. And the word “Moti Lake” literally means “Big lake” in Gujarati. So, Motu talav, Moti talav are in many villages of Gujarat. You should trust locals that no information about place is available. Regards,—Harshil want to talk? 02:21, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Ok well, if that source is also a dud, and we literally don't have any source that attests to the name even, then there's nothing to merge - striking the above.
GirthSummit (blether) 20:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. A lake that is only verified to exist is NOT by default notable. The province of Quebec has more than 500,000 lakes. These all presumably can be seen in maps. But we do not want articles for all of these, with merely location and name of lake information. Here it sounds like the lake is relatively unknown even locally, and there do not exist sources to meet wp:GNG. --
Doncram (
talk) 23:58, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Incomprehensibility questions aside it seems like there are notability concerns as well.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk,
contributions) 07:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy delete as
WP:CSD § A1. It is a very short article lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article. We write articles to give information, not to encourage people to disregard them go find said information elsewhere. Sending it to the draft namespace is another alternative.
flowing dreams (
talk page) 09:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment There are countless mainspace articles I can't understand because they're too technical for me or because I don't know enough about proteins or fluid mechanics. That's not a reason for deleting them.
Mccapra (
talk) 11:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Agreed. And I would like to emphasize that not understanding this article was not a factor in my recommendation of "speedy delete".
flowing dreams (
talk page) 14:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete I don't think that
A1 applies, because the article does establish a context: this thing is a variant of this other kind of thing that computer people study. But there doesn't appear to be enough discussion of it in the academic literature to establish it as wiki-notable.
XOR'easter (
talk) 16:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete I also don't think that
A1 applies, because from the references and prose it is clear that this is a topic in computer security regarding regarding a type of digital signature. Puncturable coding/encryption is a topic in computer security, but in my search, there are few papers that cite this particular aspect, and only the Zhang, et al, paper goes into any depth or shows impact of the topic. It is not enough to pass
WP:GNG notability guidelines. Since this work was published in 2016, it may be
WP:TOOSOON to have developed RS about it. Hence, my recommendation is to delete with with no prejudice to re-creation if and when sufficient RS become available. --{{u|
Mark viking}} {
Talk} 18:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Not notable place to have article on Wikipedia. Didn't find any coverage in reliable secondary sources. Harshil want to talk? 06:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
merge information in
Bhat, Daskroi and delete article, no redirect needed. A square in a small village and no reference. -
Nizil (
talk) 06:31, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
merge as suggested. I note the nom of this article has recently removed most of the information from the article on the village without giving a reason. I assume the reaso nwas the lack of an inline source, but such sources are required only for blp. If links do not work, that does not mean that plain information such as this is not sourceable. We do not remove content because of dead links unlesswe are sure there is no other possible source . DGG (
talk ) 21:29, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The obvious COI and sockpuppetry aside, the article fails
WP:GNG and
WP:NMUSIC. Sources are blogs and/or download referrers, so reliability and independence are unlikely. Key statements about his early life and education are not verifiable by the sources.
WP:A7 may just about be out of scope, but
WP:G11 may be entertained given the promotional sources. pseudonymJake Brockmantalk 05:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete I was going to suggest keep, but then looked at kubilive.com and discovered that it's a very slick site by one blogger. I cannot find any reliable sources that discuss the subject. Apparently
WP:TOOSOON.
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 05:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. I draftified this article previously, and it failed the AfC criteria. It appears the original creator went ahead and added it to namespace anyway. Fails WP:NMUSIC.
Utopes (
talk) 00:59, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:33, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. The whole article appears self-promotional, and despite all
peacock and
weasel words, there is no real claim to notability. There are only claims to being a family that is "highly regarded (weasel) for their superior wisdom and prestige (peacock)" There is much reason to believe that this article was written by a person who was close to the source, or by the source.
Utopes (
talk) 02:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
RL0919 (
talk) 03:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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No apparent claim of notability in the article, the sources present are weak and nothing reliable and verifiable could be found in a Google search.
Alansohn (
talk) 03:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete no actual claim to notability. When an article details placement in Who's Who in America, we are substituting paid for honors for the real thing.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete -- apparently a one-man ministry. We regularly delete local churches as NN and free-lance ministers are often less notable.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 21:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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Nominated for deletion in Persian Wikipedia, the article contains not much more than definitions, improper for Wikipedia. Mohammad 03:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom.
Mccapra (
talk) 05:02, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete as written this is a dictionary not an encyclopedia article.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. Redirects can be added at editorial discretion.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk,
contributions) 07:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
As a band member of
The Trews, he is already discussed in the band's article. There are no sources indicating notability for single performances that would justify a separate article, per
BAND, and therefore this page should be deleted. JGHowes talk 03:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - Looks to be a
WP:NMUSICIAN failure. As noted by the nom, the subject does not seem to have accrued significant enough coverage needed to separate them from their band—this is also in the spirit of
WP:NOTINHERITED, as subjects must be shown to be individually notable to be considered for a standalone article.--
SamHolt6 (
talk) 02:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, without prejudice against the recreation of a redirect to
The Trews. Band members are not automatically entitled to have their own standalone
WP:BLP separately from being discussed in the band's article, unless they can be
reliably sourced as having standalone notability for some substantive reason (e.g. solo albums) outside of the band context. But this literally just states that he exists as a band member, the end, which is not enough. And there's no substantive reason why we would need to retain the edit history behind a redirect, so we should delete and then redirect rather than just immediately redirecting with the edit history intact.
Bearcat (
talk) 12:02, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect to The Trews as not independently notable from the band, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 20:20, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
As a band member of
The Trews, he is already discussed in the band's article. There are no sources indicating notability for single performances that would justify a separate article, per
BAND, and therefore this page should be deleted. JGHowes talk 02:59, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, without prejudice against the recreation of a redirect to
The Trews. Band members are not automatically entitled to have their own standalone
WP:BLP separately from being discussed in the band's article, unless they can be
reliably sourced as having standalone notability for some substantive reason (e.g. solo albums) outside of the band context. But this literally just states that he exists as a band member, the end, which is not enough. And there's no substantive reason why we would need to retain the edit history behind a redirect, so we should delete and then redirect rather than just immediately redirecting with the edit history intact.
Bearcat (
talk) 12:02, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Redirect as not independently notable, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 20:18, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Those advocating deletion suggest that this article's topic is not studied by Philosophers in a way that would convey notability and/or that it serves as a POVFORK/COATRACK from
Conspiracy theory. Those advocating keep suggest that there are enough philosophical works in reliable sources to support the article topic's existence. This AfD's closure is complicated by the posting to the Fringe Noticeboard. A neutrally worded message on a noticeboard is not CANVASSING however the posting in this instance was hardly neutral. While it did not directly mention this AfD merely the article, it seems to have drawn attention in the sense that the AfD had been open for two weeks prior to that posting and the majority of participation, including nearly all delete !voters, followed that notice. However, as CANVASS is a behavioral policy and there was a split in the vote of those who came following the FRINGE posting I have given full weight to all editors views expressed here. As such there is no consensus.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 03:46, 2 November 2019 (UTC)reply
I've consulted the NOR page and the section on synthesis, and I don't think this article has these problems. I've removed one paragraph anyway, which might be objectionable on notability grounds. And I changed the introduction to be a simple straightforward statement of the topic.
I would note that the content is largely, though not exclusively, a summary of summaries, as can be seen by looking at the references. For example, in one section, I repeatedly cite David Coady's introduction to his book Conspiracy Theories: The Philosophical Debate, in which he summarizes the published articles on this topic up until 2006. Isn't that exactly what I'm supposed to do?
Keep Summarizes a topic from the academic literature without advancing a new thesis about it. It might need a going-over with the encyclopedic-tone-alizer, but the subject is legitimate and the sourcing is OK.
XOR'easter (
talk) 17:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Isn't that the purpose of the
Conspiracy Theory article? To summarize the credible, scholarly literature on the topic? I would expect a "Philosophy of" article to be a good deal more "meta" and to focus on the history and impact of the scholarship itself.
ApLundell (
talk) 21:31, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. There is no branch of
philosophy,
per sources, that is called "Philosophy of conspiracy theories." This is a blatantly false claim. There's a plethora of work on conspiracy theories, in general or about particular ones, their origins, their effect on society and people, and so on. (The text looks like a student's paper, by the way, one of the avalanche of papers that are trying to find their way onto Wikipedia lately.) At best, this text needs to be draftified and get a serious make over. -
The Gnome (
talk) 18:50, 22 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
78.26(
spin me /
revolutions) 02:57, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. (I assume I can vote for a page I originated, although my support is already implicit.) It seems The Gnome is suggesting that one of the sources is illegitimate because it, apparently, characterized the philosophy of conspiracy theory as a "branch" of philosophy. The Gnome calls this a "blatantly false claim." It is not clear which source is the offending one, so that makes checking the context difficult. In any case, I'm not sure it is quite fair to call this a "blatantly false claim." Personally, I would prefer to describe the philosophy of conspiracy theory as a subfield of applied epistemology, which is a subfield (or perhaps "branch") of applied philosophy, which may be considered a branch of philosophy. However, I think there is some ambiguity regarding what counts as a "branch" and that the word may legitimately be used in a loose way in this circumstance. The Gnome may disagree. But I don't think this criticism amounts to much, as there can be little question that it refers to a distinct, albeit small, subfield of philosophy.
Knuteson (
talk) 13:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Knuteson, could you then please name a few philosophers of conspiracy theories? Philosophers, please, and not sociologists, psychologists, analysts, reporters, critics, and so on. Additionally, could we locate any philosophy studies taught anywhere with Conspiracy Theories as their subject? All philosophical schools and subjects are taught somewhere. But, first, let's identify the philosophers, which denotes something quite specific. -
The Gnome (
talk) 14:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
P.S. : There is nothing "loose" or vague about the term "
philosophy", or its derivatives, i.e. "philosopher". We may be saying in everyday parlance, "Paul is being philosophical about his misfortune", but that is a metaphorical, colloquial use. -
The Gnome (
talk) 14:50, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Bona fide philosophers who have written at least a couple articles on the subject include: Charles Pigden, David Coady, Steve Clarke, Quassim Cassam, Matthew Dentith, Lee Basham, Kurtis Hagen, Brian Keeley, Patrick Stokes and Juha Räikkä. Other philosophers who have written at least one article include on the topic include: Keith Harris, Neil Levy, Pete Mandik, Philippe Huneman and Marion Vorms (jointly), and Joel Buenting and Jason Taylor (jointly). Other notable scholars who are not philosophers, such as Cass Sunstein and Adrien Vermeule, have contributed to the discussion in philosophy venues (such as the Journal of Political Philosophy). As to whether it is taught at universities: According to Google, “Epistemology of Conspiracy Theories” has been taught as a philosophy course, by Professor of Philosophy Aaron James, at the University of California, Irvine. I imagine it has been taught elsewhere to some degree, perhaps by some of the philosophers who publish in that area, though I don’t know the extent.
Knuteson (
talk) 16:19, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I should add that the Companion to Applied Philosophy (Wiley Blackwell, 2017) contains a chapter, “Are Conspiracy Theories Epistemically Vicious?” by Charles Pigden. This suggests that such questions are regarded as relatively representative of applied philosophy.
Knuteson (
talk) 19:03, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I should also add that the Routledge Handbook of Applied Epistemology (2019) has a chapter called ‘The applied epistemology of conspiracy theories: An overview’ by M. R. X. Dentith and Brian Keeley. (And I seem to have missed the work of philosopher Susan Feldman. I have probably missed others as well.)
Knuteson (
talk) 23:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Epistemology is the branch of
philosophy concerned with knowledge. When a subject, e.g. conspiracy theories, is discussed and taught in classes of epistemology, that on its own does not make those subjects part of philosophy! Epistemology addresses such questions as, "What makes justified beliefs justified?", "What does it mean to say that we know something?", etc? In the course of epistemological analysis one may focus on
superstitions,
delusions, or
cults. But this does not make any of them part of philosophy! An expert in
astrology or a
conspiracy theorist would hardly be called a "philosopher." Therefore, all that stuff about epistemology is irrelevant.
The fact that, in philosophy classes, the epistemology of conspiracy theories is (sometimes) taught, and not conspiracy theories per se, should be edifying - and enough.
The
poetRoger Angell writes regularly, and one would dare say gloriously, about
baseball. Yet, this does not make the game part of the
poetrycanon.
Baseball can only be denoted as "poetry" metaphorically. Same goes for all those "philosophers who have written at least a couple articles on the subject" of conspiracy theories, whom you brought forth as evidence of your argument. If you'd care to read what they have written, you'd see that they're treating the subject as a social phenomenon; not as part of some philosophical endeavor. Random samples: Charles Pigden
here;
Quassim Cassamhere;
Patrick Stokeshere; Brian L. Keeley
here (quote "An analysis of the alleged explanatory virtues of unwarranted conspiracies suggests some reasons for their current popularity, while at the same time providing grounds for their rejection"); and so on.)
You cite the existence of a chapter titled “Are Conspiracy Theories Epistemically Vicious?” in a book for philosophy classes. But this is simply part of various issues in life that philosophers also examine, as I explained above. It does not mean, as you assert, that "questions [such as conspiracy theories] are regarded as relatively representative of applied philosophy."
Applied philosophy has nothing to do with the plethora of unsupported, insane beliefs that are out there, nor is is "represented" by them! It merely offers an elementary warning against them; end of story. The effort to establish that there exists some kind of philosophy of conspiracy theories is both
groundlessand a serious liguistic mistake. -
The Gnome (
talk) 13:44, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
This is getting a little tiring. You had asked questions, and I answered them. Now you seem to be moving the goal post. I thought the question was whether bona fide philosophers have discussed the epistemic merits of conspiracy theories in philosophical venues, including philosophy journals and philosophy classes. They have. But now you are turning it into a question of whether this really counts as philosophy of that subject.
It is not that conspiracy theories are part of philosophy, it is that treating them philosophically is part of philosophy. The same can be said of religion and science (see point 2 below). In any case, I suppose we could trade examples and give competing arguments by analogy regarding the meaning of “philosophy of …” But the important fact is that the phrase “the epistemology of conspiracy theories” has been used in philosophical circles (as cited above) to refer to the philosophical exploration of the epistemic merits and demerits of conspiracy theories, and the phrase “the philosophy of conspiracy theories” has been used to indicate the same terrain while also being inclusive of ethical issues. (I have not yet included a section on the ethics of conspiracy theorizing, but I plan to). Is your objection that the page has been improperly titled? In that case the solution is not deletion, but simply changing the title. (Any suggestions?) Or is it that you think philosophers discussing conspiracy theories in the philosophical literature is not a topic that should be permitted on Wikipedia? If so, on what basis?
A “philosophy of science” class would not involve science, but rather philosophical discussions about science; a “philosophy of religion” would not teach religion, but rather involve a philosophical discussion about issues related to religion. Similarly, the philosophy of conspiracy theories involves philosophical considerations regarding ethical and epistemological issues related to conspiracy theories. (The epistemology of conspiracy theories covers the subset of epistemological considerations.)
In point 3 you seem to suggest that philosophers who discuss conspiracy theories in philosophy forums are somehow not doing philosophy when they do so. They are like, you seem to suggest, philosophers who happen to be talking about baseball, rather than discussing philosophical issues involved in baseball. (There is, in fact, a book called “The Philosophy of Baseball,” by a philosopher, which is presumably a work of philosophy.) In fact, if they are treating the matter philosophically, they are doing the kind of philosophy called “applied philosophy,” and it does count as philosophy—philosophy departments count this work as research in philosophy relevant to tenure and promotion. (It is unclear why the papers by Stokes and Keeley, in particular, are supposed to be examples of “not philosophy.” They most certainly count as philosophy. Whether they treat conspiracy theories as “a social phenomenon” is totally irrelevant. Of course conspiracy theorizing is a social phenomenon. One can philosophize about social phenomena—and I’m not using the word “philosophize” loosely here.)
Point 4 seems to reflect multiple misunderstandings (some of which have been discussed above), as well as lack of familiarity with the material. Also, your understanding of “conspiracy theory” seems highly skewed. In the philosophical literature, at least, the meaning that you imply has been largely repudiated. Coincidently, I have just finished, and will be adding, a new section on the discussion of the definition of conspiracy theory. Perhaps the fact that most academic philosophers who write on this subject don’t share your perspective rubs you the wrong way. But that is not a good reason to delete the page. (Since this is Wikipedia, anyone is free to check the references and make adjustments if something seems to be mischaracterized, or to add bits or sections, if one thinks I’ve given a skewed account.)
Although I am just learning the ways of Wikipedia, I have done the reading on this topic (everything I’ve cited, and more, but not everything written by everybody), and I have had some training in philosophy. I do know what I’m talking about, and I’d appreciate it if you did not insinuate otherwise.
Knuteson (
talk) 20:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I would agree that continuing the discussion is tiring, and, I'd add, fruitless. You seem to have a very loose definition of philosophy, whereby the use of the term perforce renders a subject part of philosopy, through the back door of the "applied" term. So be it. I will only state here that
I do not engage in personal invective, so your reference to insinuations is unfounded. All in all, I have presented my viewpoint, as you have yours, so
it's high time I take my leave. Cheers. -
The Gnome (
talk) 22:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Okay. Thank you. I do have to make some final remarks about all this, just for the record: The comment, “If you'd care to read what they have written, you'd see …” seems to imply that the person addressed had not read the works in question. I leave it to others to judge whether or not the inference, on my part, given the full context, was unfounded. But perhaps you just mean that, on your part, it was unintended. Fair enough.
As for the looseness of the definition, William James famously defined philosophy as the “uncommonly stubborn attempt to think clearly.” It may be that James and I, and the many philosophers who list unusual projects on their university websites, and the committees that recommend them for tenure and promotion, have a loose definition of philosophy. But I don’t think that makes the most sense of the situation. And I don’t think applied philosophy is some sort of “back door,” as though it isn’t fully legitimate. I suspect philosophy faculty members who contribute to journals such as the Journal of Applied Philosophy, and the International Journal of Applied Philosophy would concur with me on this.
Knuteson (
talk) 13:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment This one is rather difficult to judge. @
A loose necktie: I would suggest asking neutrally for participation at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy to get some feedback from editors who regularly work in this content area. I personally am finding it difficult to parse out whether this is an actual field of study in and of itself, or whether it's just putting a philosophy lens through which to view conspiracy theories. This is one of those things where it requires some prior knowledge of the field to really properly assess. Good luck.
4meter4 (
talk) 17:03, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I appreciate the call for feedback. I hope that this issue can come to a resolution relatively quickly. I must say that I don’t see what is so difficult to judge about it. Questions and challenges have been presented, and they have all been answered. Further, there are Wikipedia pages for the philosophy of suicide, philosophy of space and time, philosophy of self, and philosophy of the social sciences—and that is just for areas that start with “s” (chosen at random). There are lots and lots such pages. In any case, philosophers have been interacting in a debate that has been going for two decades and has been commented on by historians. Surely the phenomenon is noteworthy. Is it just a problem with the title? Or is there some sort of bias against what these philosophers are saying? What exactly is the substance of the complaint? I feel like I've been playing whack a mole.
Knuteson (
talk) 14:01, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I think it's more difficult to parse out abstract concepts as to whether they are accurate to the source material or an original synthesis supported by the source material. I haven't the background in philosophy (beyond what everyone takes in Philosophy 101 in college) to feel like I can form an opinion. I left a neutral note at the WikiProject to come here. I myself am not voting, Best.
4meter4 (
talk) 18:40, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment I'll bet you anything that you won't find such a page in any other Wikipedia other than the English one. This is because "conspiracy theories" are a meme and and obsession of American culture since the assassination of President Kennedy, in 1963, which to my view is basically just still an unresolved mystery. But leaving that aside, there is a Conspiracy Theory page in the English Wikipedia in which these issues are all debated quite frequently. To my view, there in no need for an additional page on the "philosophy" of this meme and American cultural obsession.
warshy(¥¥) 20:17, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
It not true that this issue is not discussed in other countries. But that point is not relevant anyway. If it did have relevance it would suggest that the “conspiracy theory” page ought to be deleted too. As for “these issues” being debated quite frequently on the conspiracy theory page, please point me to the best examples of these discussions you’ve had about the philosophical literature on conspiracy theories.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete Our
conspiracy theory article contains a plethora of philosophical opinions reflecting mainstream discourse on the subject. This article focuses primary weight on opinions that suggest some (unspecified) conspiracy theories shouldn't be dismissed because some are likely true. At best, it's a
WP:POVFORK, and at worst, a
WP:COATRACK. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 22:25, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
What exactly are you referring to? The article itself contains no significant discussion of the work of bona fide philosophers.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Although this is new to me, I see that there are various different kind of COATRACKing. Which kind are you alleging? And what exactly is your evidence?
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
By the way, Guy Macon, LuckyLouie, and warshy, I have a question for you three. Before you recommended that this page be deleted, had you read any of the literature in question? What exactly had you read?
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Question - I would agree that many academic scholars have studied the generalized topic of “conspiracy theory” (certainly many historians have done so) and I accept that philosophers might have explored the topic from a philosophical perspective... but does anyone actually use the phrase “philosophy of conspiracy theory” to describe what they are doing? Is it the title of a university course somewhere?
Blueboar (
talk) 23:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Clever class, but it doesn't represent a coherent research community or discourse. Instead, it's simply an offshoot of other skeptical Phil. 101-type classes.
jps (
talk) 12:23, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
There has also been a book on the topic with that title. But I don’t think the title is really that important. There have been at least a couple courses on the “epistemology of conspiracy theories.” But that label leaves out the related ethical issues. There is a special issue of the journal Argumenta titled, “The Ethics and the Epistemology of Conspiracy Theories.” We could call it that. There is a book called “Conspiracy Theories: The Philosophical Debate,” we could call it that. A book chapter called, “The History of Conspiracy Theory Research,” has a section called, “The Debate in Analytical Philosophy on Warranted and Unwarranted Conspiracy Believes (Mid-1990s to the Present).” That’s a bit unwieldy. “Philosophy of conspiracy theories” is more succinct. But let’s not confuse the issue of whether there is something noteworthy, which legitimates its inclusion on Wikipedia, with the separate issue of what it should be called.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. POVFORK/COATRACK as others have said. Any material on the "philosophy" of conspiracy theories should be included in the main
Conspiracy theory article to make better sense in context, per
WP:NOPAGE.
Alexbrn (
talk) 06:41, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
I have no objection to this suggestion. Let us not confuse reasons to move this material with reasons to delete it.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
WEAK Delete Looks like a POVFORK/COATRACK to avoid the definition question.
Slatersteven (
talk) 10:27, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
I don’t see how I’ve avoided the definition question. It is addressed at the top of the page. If you think this material is better suited for the “conspiracy theory” page, I’m fine with including it there. After all, what discipline concerns itself with careful analysis of concepts? Is it the social sciences? No, their discussions of definitions are usually perfunctory. It is philosophy. It is in the philosophical literature where one actually finds a rigorous scholarly debate going on about how best to understand the concept "conspiracy theory."
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. This is an
original essay not backed up by
WP:SECONDARY sources. The narrative being spun is that there is some coherent group of "philosophers of conspiracy theories" when, instead, we simply have some philosophers who have written about conspiracy theories in various contexts.
jps (
talk) 12:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
I’ve used secondary sources as much as possible. The introduction to a volume of previously published essays that summarizes them is a secondary source. Further, it is not the case that only secondary sources may be used. And there is, in fact, a coherent group of philosophers writing about these issues and engaging each other in the process. Have you looked at the cited material?
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Now, let’s not lose focus. These are the issues, as I see them:
Does this page describe a genuine and distinct phenomenon that is noteworthy? I have argued that it does. There are books written about it, special issues of philosophy journals, and it is commented on by historians. Though I think “philosophy of conspiracy theories” is a good label, I don’t particularly care what you call it.
Does the page represent a POV, rather than faithfully describing the content? No one has yet provided any evidence that it is anything less than a fair and accurate description of the field (at least up through 2007, it is not yet complete). If one wants a reasonably easy way to check, just look at the introductions to the books or special issues on the topic (note that only the second half of the essays in the special issue of Argumenta are by philosophers, and that the contrast with the first half is striking).
Is this material redundant? It has been suggested that there already exists something equivalent on the “conspiracy theory” page. But this does not seem to be true.
If the material is noteworthy, accurate, and not redundant, then the question becomes: Where should it be located? Regarding this question, I don’t really care. I thought it made sense as a stand-alone page, especially since the “conspiracy theory” page is already long, and I intend to add more to this page. At some point it makes sense to separate topics. And there are, as mentioned above, countless “philosophy of …” pages. But if it is thought best to incorporate this material into the main “conspiracy theory” page, that is fine with me. Indeed, one could argue that the philosophical discussion of the definition should be prominent, for reasons mentioned above.
Knuteson (
talk) 15:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Note to closing admin. The recent influx of votes have appeared after a somewhat
non-neutrally worded notification about this AFD posted at
WP:FTN by
LuckyLouie (as well as a neutrally worded one at
WT:WPP by
4meter4 for full disclosure). I have no opinion on the outcome of this discussion itself, but I wanted to point out the potential issue with
WP:CANVASS. –
Deacon Vorbis (
carbon •
videos) 14:25, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep At least given the arguments so far. Seems to fairly plainly just summarize the sources cited. So whatever the POV in this "POVFORK", I'm not sure I see exactly what it is, unless it is the POV of the sources cited, which is the POV we're supposed to be presenting. As to the FORK bit:
Philosophy of mind/
Mind,
Philosophy of education/
Education,
Philosophy of happiness/
Happiness,
Philosophy of religion/
Religion, I could continue if anyone really needs me to. Seems we fairly regularly fork off examinations specifically of the philosophy of the subject from main articles dealing with the subject as a whole.
GMGtalk 15:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
User:Deacon Vorbis's note,
User:Knuteson's responses to all the criticism raised above, and
User:GreenMeansGo latest comments above, have all made me rethink my position regarding
User:Knuteson's creation. I believe
User:Knuteson does know the epistemological basis of the subject matter, and he has been able to weave a good enough WP article on it, which I've now added to my watchlist. He also knows how to write and how to argue on Wikipedia very well. Kudos! I now believe the article will be retained by Wikipedia in the end. I will change my "Delete" vote above, to a simple "Comment." Thank you,
warshy(¥¥) 16:43, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep While I have some reservations I think this topic could potentially be a worthwhile addition. I intend to read the extensive list of references and will try to address the concerns about the article. --
mikeutalk 17:52, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep This seems like a good start to an article on an interesting topic.
Simonm223 (
talk) 18:37, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Two additional notes: 1 - I found about the RfC through
WP:FRINGE/N and not through the method mentioned by Deacon Vorbis. 2 - I would also support a move of this content to the principal article; however I believe there is probably enough novel content in the article as it stands to support a stand-alone article.
Simonm223 (
talk) 18:41, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep The issue is that articles like this, however well they may begin, are in danger of being taken over by POV edits over a longer period. But as long as enough people are interested in this topic - and I think there are - to keep an eye on it, it should be possible to even it out into something acceptable.
Deb (
talk) 18:47, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete (Merge anything useful) Other "philosophy of" articles describe an actual field of study. They describe the history of schools of thought on the topic, the describe how different movements among philosophers have held different amounts of academic sway over time. In short, they are articles about the significant history of the scholarship itself. Not so with this article. There's no real discussion about the philosophy as its own thing or the philosophy's impact on society. It's is just a handful of "A specific academic once said this", which is the sort of thing that should be rolled into the main article as ordinary citations.
ApLundell (
talk) 21:21, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
1) The existence of other articles is not particularly relevant to a deletion discussion. 2) We are discussing the topic of this article, not its content. FromAnUnnamedUser(open talk page) 21:31, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
1)I am familiar with
WP:OTHERSTUFF, but as OTHERSTUFF arguments are being made by "keep" !voters, I think it's valid to point out that those articles are very different than the article under discussion.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. MBisanztalk 02:32, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
A notable film and television producer? That's rare. I don't see anything at Google News that would make this guy qualify as meeting our
WP:GNG. He is the co-founder of an Indian production company called Rashmi Sharma Telefilms Limited, whose article, I notice, was deleted as the result of
this AFD. So if his company is not deemed notable, he certainly wouldn't be by default.
Cyphoidbomb (
talk) 00:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - You could make an argument for him meeting
WP:FILMMAKER #3, given the substantial body of work, much of which appears to be at least notable enough to have Wikipedia articles. However, that only creates a presumption of notability that still needs to be supported by reliable sources and I simply can't find sufficient sources. He doesn't even get close to meeting the
WP:GNG and, given this is a BLP and needs to be meticulously sourced, there simply isn't enough to support an article.
Hugsyrup 09:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. There just aren't any good sources out there on Pawan Kumar Marut (although there are on the films he has worked on). We can't make an article on a topic that just isn't covered anywhere. Fails
WP:SIGCOV.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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The result was keep,
WP:SNOW, should not have been nominated--
Ymblanter (
talk) 16:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep - Sounds like a
WP:IDONTLIKEIT nomination. (Extremely) quick Google search suggests a GNG pass anyway:
[8],
[9],
[10] - that's without speaking the language, very likely more out there for those who are experienced with Russian/Ukrainian. Also, I believe articles regarding subjects from the pre-internet age are given a pass anyway - at least that's the case with historic British players at NFOOTY.
R96Skinner (
talk) 00:36, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep A quick - nay, even cursory - glance at the Ukrainian-language page shows plenty of
WP:GNG coverage. Needs to be expanded, not deleted.
SportingFlyerT·C 02:10, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.
GiantSnowman 09:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
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talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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The result was Draftify. --
RoySmith(talk) 22:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Contested PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails
WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. PROD was contested on the grounds that he has played for Iran's U-17 and U-20 national teams. This does not satisfy
WP:NFOOTBALL.
Sir Sputnik (
talk) 00:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.
GiantSnowman 09:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Draftify Persepolis are a major club (2018 AFC runners up) so he is likely (but not certainly) notable if he's on their squad.
SportingFlyerT·C 12:21, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep i agree with both of users above.the player and the article must be remain.when footballer sign with popular team at age 17,he can be notable.he's also be known of iran's national team,he played and scored in
2018_AFC_U-16_Championship#Group_C and you can see the squad
here with number 18.if it will be deleted,it will be created soon! so keep the article like many youth player in this range and case.--
Mojtaba2361 (
talk) 16:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Mojtaba2361: Just because they notable due to the fact that they competed in the
AFC U-16 Championship. An example would be
Alex Popović from Australia as he is signed to Adelaide United youth team but he isn't eligible for a page as he has not played in a
WP:FPL league yet. It's the same with this player, yeah he has signed for a team that is eligible via
WP:FPL but due to the fact that he hasn't played in a professional game yet, the best cause of action would be either to delete or at least move it to draft.
HawkAussie (
talk) 00:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete or Draftify- fails
WP:GNG and
WP:NFOOTBALL. If he becomes notable later for future activities the article can always be recreated.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Draftiy - Signed for
Persepolis F.C. which is a club that is eligible due to
WP:FPL. But because he hasn't played in a league match yet, it's best if this was moved to a draft until we see him play in a professional league game.
HawkAussie (
talk) 00:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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The result was keep. The discussion of them being a predatory publisher or other negative allegations are irrelevant at AfD. While promotionalism is a reason that an article may be deleted at AfD that is not the argument here. Instead there seems to be general consensus that this article is about a notable company and there is no policy based explanation for deletion of a notable topic advanced. As such there is a clear keep consensus.
Barkeep49 (
talk) 03:32, 31 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - Half the references are sourced to the organisation's own website, and the remainder are primary sources (an open access and copyright policy as a source? Really?). Not a single one would qualify as a
reliable source. Likewise, I cannot find any better sources from my own searching.
Hugsyrup 09:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I have no opinion as yet on keeping or deleting, but must note that this publisher has been listed as possibly predatory at
doi:
10.1016/j.neuroscience.2017.04.014 and
doi:
10.3346/jkms.2016.31.12.1874, although it now claims to follow the code of the
Committee on Publication Ethics. The possibly predatory nature seems to be the aspect of this publisher that has attracted the most attention in reliable sources, so, per
WP:WEIGHT, should be mentioned in the article if it is kept.
Phil Bridger (
talk) 12:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete - As above, not notable, poorly sourced and little SIGCOV. Note: previously deleted CSD A7
here. Seems little, if any, improvement... I came across this as a draft and although I tried to find more sources, I could not do so. I noted it, but it slipped down my list of tasks and the next I saw, it had been accepted, which surprised me and brought here.
Eagleash (
talk) 13:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Ah yes, it was accepted by @
DGG: - courtesy ping in case they have a different perspective on this.
Hugsyrup 13:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep. They publish 17 journals that are in web of science or scopus, which is notability for those journals. This doesn't imply it for the company, but 17 out of its 49 that meet those standards is characteristic of a notable publisher. it is so extrordinarily difficult to find sources that meet our standards for publishers of all sorts especially those who are not trade publishers, that I tend to be quite liberal in interpretation here. This is especially true of those not in the major science-article-producing countries. This company is in Iran, and most of its journalsspecialize in that region. So we also need to consider systematic bias, (FWIW, the standard for accepting at AfC isn't that it is certain to pass AfD, but that it probably will; this does not mean a bare 51%, but most reviewers use somewhere around 80% chance of passing.). DGG (
talk ) 20:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks for commenting - it’s useful to understand better why you accepted the draft. FWIW, I’m sticking with delete. I’m afraid I don’t quite buy the argument that we should lower our standards for a topic simply because it’s too difficult to find sources. They’re almost certainly hard to find because they don’t exist (unless anyone can convince me that they are actually out there, which doesn’t seem to be your argument), and if they don’t exist then it’s not notable by our standard. One could equally argue that it’s extraordinarily difficult to find sources for ‘garage bands that have never released an album’, or ‘new actors with only a single credit to their name’, or any of the other categories of article that are regularly deleted as non-notable.
Hugsyrup 06:36, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment, it's been flagged as predatory by Beall, btw. Headbomb {
t ·
c ·
p ·
b} 06:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm enclined to keep per DGG though. Headbomb {
t ·
c ·
p ·
b} 06:20, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep, per
DGG, as the subject is notable as a publisher of scientific journals. The article, however, could use some improvement. -
AuthorAuthor (
talk) 19:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep - This publisher is notable because of predatory claims and for a
high retraction rate. It also publishes multiple indexed journals. Indexed journals are generally considered notable. I appreciate that notability is not inherited but also appreciate
DGG's point that it is difficult to find sources for publishers and, yes, we do shortcut
WP:GNG for important subjects (
WP:NPROF,
WP:NTV,
WP:GEOLAND, for instance) that don't tend to get the mass-media attention that would give them the internet search hits. ~
Kvng (
talk) 21:49, 24 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep, per DGG. And, yes, we do have independent sources. Beall's blog is not online any more, but still accessible in the Internet Archive and can be used as a reference and the same goes for the RetractionWatch mentioned by Kvng. It's not ideal, but it's two independent sources all the same. Given that they now have multiple journals in the Science Citation Index Expanded and Scopus, it looks like they are cleaning up their act. If Beall still maintained his list, he might have removed them by now (no way to know for certain, of course). But thanks to
Frontiers Media, Beall's list is not updated any more (and Frontiers shot themselves in the foot big time, because now there never will be a mention in their article that Beall took them off his list...) --
Randykitty (
talk) 05:13, 25 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Question Are they a
predatory publisher and have they been named in
Beall's List? If so, I'd argue for speedy delete. Otherwise, my vote is indifferent to keep or delete.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 01:06, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Kvng, you beat me to it, I had the same question for
Dmehus. Since when is the quality (or lack thereof) of a subject a reason to keep or delete? If we do away with this one because it's a bad publisher, then why not also do away with
Charles Manson, because he's a bad person? --
Randykitty (
talk) 16:21, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
In the same, or similar, way in which we purge
non-notable companies. If the publisher is not a credible publisher of academic journals, does not complete any peer review, or the like, how is it any better than, say, a quasi-spammy blog like BuzzFeed?
Doug Mehus (
talk) 16:27, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
But we do have an article on
BuzzFeed... We should base our !votes on policy, not opinions. --
Randykitty (
talk) 16:53, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Randykitty: But I am basing my !vote on policy, specifically,
WP:SIGCOV and, crucially,
WP:CORPDEPTH. There are some blogs and journal articles that raise questions of this publisher's publication quality and peer review processes, so it may pass
WP:SIGCOV but it fails
WP:CORPDEPTH. There simply isn't enough
reliable sources to write more than a
permastub with a second, possibly a third, short paragraph on the publisher's apparent lack of editorial control. --
Doug Mehus (
talk) 17:14, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
DeleteorDraftify without prejudice to re-creation in the future. The factual accuracy of this article is in question, including whether the fact this publisher's journals undergo
peer review as it is named on
Beall's List. When you strip out that and its
puffery, there is nothing worth salvaging in this article. If someone wants to work on this article, I wouldn't be opposed to Draftify, but as written, it's a delete.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 16:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
"Puffery" is a reason to clean up an article, not to delete it. Beall's list is a source, as is the fact that several of their journals are in Scopus and Clarivate Analytics databases. I urge you to get more familiar with how AfD is supposed to work. --
Randykitty (
talk) 16:53, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
I think
puffery can be used to explain that an article is written like an advertisement, which is a reason to delete. Nevertheless, it's not the main argument for deleting this. I think many people on here argue for keeping articles to preserve editing history and contributions, but Wikipedia does not have bylines. We're unattributed poor slugs who edit anonymously (well, some of us use our real names, like me, but what I mean is, attribution is not to us). Like I said, I see your point that an illegitimate journal publisher can still be
notable, so that's why I suggested deleting without prejudice to re-creation in the future or to draftifying the article for someone to take action on. A lot of companies use Wikipedia for SEO purposes and our "no time limit" policy, with respect, is a mistake, because companies can essentially let editor inattention work in their favour.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 17:07, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
WP:NODEADLINES is an important part of Wikipedia. Like most of us, I've got a lot of other things going on and I would not be able about to volunteer here were it not for this. Similarly
WP:NOTCLEANUP is also important, as is
WP:IMPERFECT. Sure there are those inside and outside Wikipedia who take advantage of this chill for their gain. I understand that can emotionally upsetting to someone with a zero-sum outlook. I understand (but don't buy into) the arguments that it reflects poorly on Wikipedia. ~
Kvng (
talk) 17:57, 26 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep per DGG and Kvng.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:45, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment and Opposition to using
Web of Science as Keep rationales - While this company may be
notable based
WP:SIGCOV (likely still fails
WP:CORPDEPTH), has anyone checked out
Clarivate Analytics (owner of Web of Science) financials lately? Declining revenues, increasing losses, piling debt—this thing is a
corporate dung heap I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole from an investment standpoint. I see trends emerging in this space where one
private equity firm passes off an investment to another
private equity firm or a
willing sucker until the
rodeo ends. So, in short, I won't change my vote on the basis of this company likely still failing
WP:CORPDEPTH, I feel compelled to make this important observation re: Web of Science (a corporate product) and Clarivate.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 17:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment Sorry, but this must rank among the weirdest rationales that I've ever seen at an AfD debate. Clarivate's finances have absolutely nothing to do with whether we consider its indexes reliable sources (note that WoS is not an index, it's only a platform to access Clarivate's indexes, a perhaps subtle but nonetheless important distinction). --
Randykitty (
talk) 17:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Randykitty, I agree, but note my opposition is to listing
Web of Science, a Clarivate platform, as a deletion rationale. I agree with you that WoS is not an index but a corporate platform. Thus, I don't see how that's helpful in justifying a keep as
DGG et al. said above and in reply to his comment. This company may well meet
WP:SIGCOV, so that's a potential keep reason, but, similarly, potentially failing
WP:CORPDEPTH is a potential delete reason. Trying to say their journals are listed in a corporate knowledge platform for the sciences is not a keep reason, in my view.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 19:02, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment The indexing is in the
Science Citation Index Expanded (accessible through WoS), which is one of the more selective indexes around. Inclusion in the SCIE is generally accepted as evidence that a journal is notable, because such an inclusion only comes after a commission of specialists has evaluated the journal. It is also significant coverage, because inclusion in the SCIE means also inclusion in the
Journal Citation Reports, which publishes detailed yearly evaluations of a journal's citation history. --
Randykitty (
talk) 19:12, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Randykitty, I, for one, welcome the day when
Crossref,
ORCID,
Google Scholar, and
Microsoft Academic are collectively the preeminent sources for journal citations. It seems overly anachronistic and stodgy to rely, in a migratory trend of scholarly journals to migrate to digital-first or digital-only, on a printed scholarly journal which publishes citation statistics. Nevertheless, I appreciate your reply and expanded commentary.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 19:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
None of those are selective indices. Those aim to be comprenhensive. Headbomb {
t ·
c ·
p ·
b} 20:57, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep - in addition to the rationale given by DGG, Headbomb has expanded the article and generally cleaned it up to an acceptable shape. I don't really see why something being a load of rubbish is a reason per se to delete an article, otherwise we wouldn't have a page on Plan 9 from Outer Space.
Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 17:35, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Ritchie333, lack of sourcing is the reason why I nominated this article for deletion, and the improvements to the article do not include enough sourcing in my opinion. –
Muboshgu (
talk) 17:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Ritchie333, Agree with you that this publisher's questioned editorial and peer review process are not, themselves, deletion rationale, but I do think, though this company may pass
WP:SIGCOV, there's not sufficient
WP:RS which allow it to pass
WP:CORPDEPTH. We should not be aiming for mediocrity on Wikipedia. Every article should have potential to become, at minimum, a C-class article (that is, not, start- or stub-class articles).
Doug Mehus (
talk) 19:06, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Doug, your interpretation of
WP:CORPDEPTH is a valid opinion, but it is not what that consensus-agreed guideline says, which is that the coverage in independent reliable sources "makes it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization". That is a lesser standard than just being able to write a stub in general. If you want to argue for a stricter standard then this is not the place to do so.
Phil Bridger (
talk) 19:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Phil Bridger, So what the heck is
WP:CORPDEPTH saying, in your opinion? Or, what's the current consensus, assuming one exists? My understanding is the test can be two-part, depending on the context of the article and the prevailing consensus of the AfD at that time. For example, many AfD discussions will see articles pass
WP:SIGCOV but fail
WP:CORPDEPTH and be kept. Others will fail both (the strongest deletes, arguably).
Doug Mehus (
talk) 19:53, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
As I said, the fact, not just my opinion, is that
WP:CORPDEPTH is saying exactly what I quoted it as saying. If you want it to say something else, like that there has to be enough coverage to justify a C-class article, then discuss the issue at
Wikipedia talk:Notability (organizations and companies), but don't claim that it says something that it doesn't.
Phil Bridger (
talk) 20:00, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
Phil Bridger, Oh, I thought you were quoting what I said. To me, my interpretation of "makes it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization" means there needs to be enough
WP:RS to write more than, or at least substantiate the
WP:PRIMARY-sourced material, to wrote more than a stub-class article. I added start-class because, in my view, start-class is a variant on stub-class and the two are not demonstrably different.
Doug Mehus (
talk) 21:03, 30 October 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.