- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. RL0919 ( talk) 11:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Lakewood Football
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Non notable article of high school sports team.
Last AFD closed as withdrawn and WP:G12 tagged, but the creator is going through OTRS to donate the material, so bringing it back here. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete There are a large number of issues with this article, including WP:PROMO, and with WP:YOUNGATH I don't think we typically include articles about youth school sports clubs. SportingFlyer T· C 10:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Keep My article merely discusses the history of a football team and its accomplishments. I don't understand how this may be considered advertising or promoting. As for notoriety, there are several references listed to prove the validity of my article. A comment was made about generally not hosting material about "youth sports." My article focuses on the sport of football, regardless of its level of competition. Please reconsider instating my article. Another interesting fact, it is my understanding that this website is in need of art or graphic designs. I can contribute a vast amount of this work through my article, if given the opportunity. Is history not one of the top subjects on this site? That is all I wanted to share in this community. BigRed66 ( talk) 16:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete We don't even have an article for the dominant Oak Hill Academy basketball or Mater Dei football programs; just another high school football team. The non-PR copy and donated pictures should go into Lakewood High School (California). Nate • ( chatter) 23:26, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete,
*Redirect to Lakewood High School (California), whereand instead place a brief paragraph covering the team at the Lakewood High School (California) page to adequately cover the team in the main school article. Ejgreen77 ( talk) 23:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC) - Delete. Perhaps a few sentences can be merged into the main article. I'm not confident a redirect is even necessary. tedder ( talk) 09:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Promotional piece, not notable separate from Lakewood High School. Grand'mere Eugene ( talk) 10:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete Not notable sports team. WP:PROMO also applies. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete clearly non-notable team. The sentence "The purpose of this newest web site is to bring to the forefront the proud tradition and history of Lancer football" also suggests a lack of understanding of the concept/purpose of Wikipedia -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 14:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment "Notability" here is defined as accomplishment recognition, and clearly there are notable professional alumni listed in the article. This is far from a promotional piece. It merely focuses on the history and achievements of a football team. If it's a simple phrase about a proud tradition, it can be removed. BigRed66 ( talk) 02:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, almost the entire article is full of weasel words and promotional language, it would need a full rewrite to conform to Wikipedia's writing standards. The fact that notable professional athletes played for this team when they were children is not enough to merit inclusion on this website (per WP:NTEAM). Eagles 24/7 (C) 02:21, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Eagles247: Would you mind directing me to an example of what is an acceptable sports team article? Almost all of the current football articles hosted here mention an enormous amount of history, which is what I'm trying to do with my piece. BigRed66 ( talk) 02:32, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- The history isn't the problem, it's the notability of the actual subject being described as well as the language used in general. Maryland Terrapins football, 1892–1946 is recognized as a good article on Wikipedia if you are looking for an example of encyclopedic writing practices. I've also added some templates in this article to highlight sentences that use weasel words. Eagles 24/7 (C) 02:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Eagles247: I noticed the highlights. Thanks for pointing them out. I'll have a look at Maryland's page for more insite. BigRed66 ( talk) 03:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Just to make clear, simply re-writing the article (and, as commented above, it would require a near-total re-write if kept) will not in and of itself resolve the major problem, which is the notability of the subject. WP's notability guidelines specifically state the following: "High school and pre-high school athletes are notable only if they have received substantial and prolonged coverage that is (1) independent of the subject and (2) clearly goes beyond routine coverage." So you would need to be able to demonstrate that the team has received extensive coverage in independent news media, books, etc, which goes beyond simply noting the team's results. If such coverage doesn't exist then I don't think there's any chance of the article being kept -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 19:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:YOUNGATH. Best, GPL93 ( talk) 15:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
@ ChrisTheDude: You mentioned media coverage. I've listed several references to validate that point. Can you clarify what you mean by "routine coverage?" The updated article mentions extensive coverage of the team's coach, which is independent of the subject I would say. BigRed66 ( talk) 21:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- To which reference(s) do you refer? I can't see any references currently in the article which contain "extensive coverage of the team's coach". And to answer your question, routine coverage in the context of sport essentially mentions reporting on games. So if a newspaper runs a short report on each of the team's games the following morning, that's routine coverage. So there needs to be evidence of coverage more in-depth than that --
ChrisTheDude (
talk) 22:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment@ BigRed66: You have clearly spent lots of time researching and writing about the Lakewood football team, and your passion for your subject is obvious. I respect your sportscaster perspective, with the history laid out almost like a play-by-play report. For Wikipedia writing, however, it fails on several important counts: first, and most importantly, the subject matter fails at the elemental level because we do not publish articles about young athletes unless their coverage in reliable sources is beyond routine. Think sources like Sports Illustrated,Sporting News. ESPN Magazine, and not just mentions on a list, but significant coverage. When was the last time any of those publications covered a high school team? They might cover an outstanding individual high schooler, such as LeBron James, or other prep-to-pro player, but high school teams very rarely will make the cut. Secondly, the article lacks an encyclopedic tone, because it reflects your passion for your team, written almost like the second broadcaster in the booth who provides interesting commentary on the action. By contrast, the tone of the encyclopedia is more subdued, less flashy, less hyperbolic. Think dull as dirt, without any promotional verbiage whatsoever. If you want to contribute to Lakewood High School (California), consider adding an "External link" to your website at the bottom of that article. As writers and editors, we appreciate your effort, but in this instance you have just missed the mark entirely. — Grand'mere Eugene ( talk) 00:45, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete, and do not redirect. The creator of this clearly worked very hard on this and should look to finding a host, but we are specifically not a website host. Oh, and Grand'mere Eugene, we specially discourage adding links to pages like this in school article guidelines. Sorry. An encyclopedia article is built of information paraphrased from reliable secondary sources. There are only a couple articles on high school football programs in the US. These cover schools that have programs 125 + years old that have been the subject of multiple full length books. John from Idegon ( talk) 20:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails notability. No Great Shaker ( talk) 07:05, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. RL0919 ( talk) 11:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Lakewood Football
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Lakewood Football ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non notable article of high school sports team.
Last AFD closed as withdrawn and WP:G12 tagged, but the creator is going through OTRS to donate the material, so bringing it back here. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete There are a large number of issues with this article, including WP:PROMO, and with WP:YOUNGATH I don't think we typically include articles about youth school sports clubs. SportingFlyer T· C 10:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Keep My article merely discusses the history of a football team and its accomplishments. I don't understand how this may be considered advertising or promoting. As for notoriety, there are several references listed to prove the validity of my article. A comment was made about generally not hosting material about "youth sports." My article focuses on the sport of football, regardless of its level of competition. Please reconsider instating my article. Another interesting fact, it is my understanding that this website is in need of art or graphic designs. I can contribute a vast amount of this work through my article, if given the opportunity. Is history not one of the top subjects on this site? That is all I wanted to share in this community. BigRed66 ( talk) 16:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete We don't even have an article for the dominant Oak Hill Academy basketball or Mater Dei football programs; just another high school football team. The non-PR copy and donated pictures should go into Lakewood High School (California). Nate • ( chatter) 23:26, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete,
*Redirect to Lakewood High School (California), whereand instead place a brief paragraph covering the team at the Lakewood High School (California) page to adequately cover the team in the main school article. Ejgreen77 ( talk) 23:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC) - Delete. Perhaps a few sentences can be merged into the main article. I'm not confident a redirect is even necessary. tedder ( talk) 09:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Promotional piece, not notable separate from Lakewood High School. Grand'mere Eugene ( talk) 10:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete Not notable sports team. WP:PROMO also applies. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete clearly non-notable team. The sentence "The purpose of this newest web site is to bring to the forefront the proud tradition and history of Lancer football" also suggests a lack of understanding of the concept/purpose of Wikipedia -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 14:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment "Notability" here is defined as accomplishment recognition, and clearly there are notable professional alumni listed in the article. This is far from a promotional piece. It merely focuses on the history and achievements of a football team. If it's a simple phrase about a proud tradition, it can be removed. BigRed66 ( talk) 02:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, almost the entire article is full of weasel words and promotional language, it would need a full rewrite to conform to Wikipedia's writing standards. The fact that notable professional athletes played for this team when they were children is not enough to merit inclusion on this website (per WP:NTEAM). Eagles 24/7 (C) 02:21, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Eagles247: Would you mind directing me to an example of what is an acceptable sports team article? Almost all of the current football articles hosted here mention an enormous amount of history, which is what I'm trying to do with my piece. BigRed66 ( talk) 02:32, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- The history isn't the problem, it's the notability of the actual subject being described as well as the language used in general. Maryland Terrapins football, 1892–1946 is recognized as a good article on Wikipedia if you are looking for an example of encyclopedic writing practices. I've also added some templates in this article to highlight sentences that use weasel words. Eagles 24/7 (C) 02:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Eagles247: I noticed the highlights. Thanks for pointing them out. I'll have a look at Maryland's page for more insite. BigRed66 ( talk) 03:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Just to make clear, simply re-writing the article (and, as commented above, it would require a near-total re-write if kept) will not in and of itself resolve the major problem, which is the notability of the subject. WP's notability guidelines specifically state the following: "High school and pre-high school athletes are notable only if they have received substantial and prolonged coverage that is (1) independent of the subject and (2) clearly goes beyond routine coverage." So you would need to be able to demonstrate that the team has received extensive coverage in independent news media, books, etc, which goes beyond simply noting the team's results. If such coverage doesn't exist then I don't think there's any chance of the article being kept -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 19:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:YOUNGATH. Best, GPL93 ( talk) 15:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
@ ChrisTheDude: You mentioned media coverage. I've listed several references to validate that point. Can you clarify what you mean by "routine coverage?" The updated article mentions extensive coverage of the team's coach, which is independent of the subject I would say. BigRed66 ( talk) 21:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- To which reference(s) do you refer? I can't see any references currently in the article which contain "extensive coverage of the team's coach". And to answer your question, routine coverage in the context of sport essentially mentions reporting on games. So if a newspaper runs a short report on each of the team's games the following morning, that's routine coverage. So there needs to be evidence of coverage more in-depth than that --
ChrisTheDude (
talk) 22:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment@ BigRed66: You have clearly spent lots of time researching and writing about the Lakewood football team, and your passion for your subject is obvious. I respect your sportscaster perspective, with the history laid out almost like a play-by-play report. For Wikipedia writing, however, it fails on several important counts: first, and most importantly, the subject matter fails at the elemental level because we do not publish articles about young athletes unless their coverage in reliable sources is beyond routine. Think sources like Sports Illustrated,Sporting News. ESPN Magazine, and not just mentions on a list, but significant coverage. When was the last time any of those publications covered a high school team? They might cover an outstanding individual high schooler, such as LeBron James, or other prep-to-pro player, but high school teams very rarely will make the cut. Secondly, the article lacks an encyclopedic tone, because it reflects your passion for your team, written almost like the second broadcaster in the booth who provides interesting commentary on the action. By contrast, the tone of the encyclopedia is more subdued, less flashy, less hyperbolic. Think dull as dirt, without any promotional verbiage whatsoever. If you want to contribute to Lakewood High School (California), consider adding an "External link" to your website at the bottom of that article. As writers and editors, we appreciate your effort, but in this instance you have just missed the mark entirely. — Grand'mere Eugene ( talk) 00:45, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete, and do not redirect. The creator of this clearly worked very hard on this and should look to finding a host, but we are specifically not a website host. Oh, and Grand'mere Eugene, we specially discourage adding links to pages like this in school article guidelines. Sorry. An encyclopedia article is built of information paraphrased from reliable secondary sources. There are only a couple articles on high school football programs in the US. These cover schools that have programs 125 + years old that have been the subject of multiple full length books. John from Idegon ( talk) 20:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails notability. No Great Shaker ( talk) 07:05, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.