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Archived discussions (starting from September 2007) may be found at:
Does not meet
WP:GNG. Has had a {{notability}} tag for eight months with no improvements. References are either company listings, articles hosted by Hashtag Pop itself, or other news sources re-reporting their stories. A
WP:BEFORE search in Portuguese doesn't yield any reliable sources with significant coverage.
Jonathan Deamer (
talk) 16:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The article has a promotional feel. I wasn't able to find significant coverage of the subject (or, frankly, any coverage). There is a reference in the article, but it's just album liner notes.
toweli (
talk) 13:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
speedy delete as a copyvio of [
[1]]. The promotional reek of this article about a nn musician is exolained.
TheLongTone (
talk) 14:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment. Wow... that's a huge body of work. The list feels strongly in
WP:NOT territory. The lede is irrelevant to the topic of concerts, and the list thus lacks an explanation of why this is a relevant list. It's certainly not because such concerts are rare. The listed concerts are certainly vastly different in size too. Also, if the idea is to handle Japanese penetration of other music markets, why limit it to J-pop and exclude J-rock, metal etc.? Why even limit it to non-Asian countries, seeing as a concert in Lebanon would be just as "exotic" as one in Cyprus?
Geschichte (
talk) 14:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment. I'm indifferent to whether the article should be kept or deleted (though the latter would save me a buttload of work), but I'd like to point out there is a similar article titled
List of K-pop concerts held outside Asia, for which this discussion should also apply.
DragonFury (
talk) 15:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Proposing a draftify or merge to
C418 as an
alternative to deletion. Unfortunately I think this album is
non-notable for several reasons: (1) The album does not 'exist' yet per se; as it has not been announced, and most of the evidence relating to potential release or more information are primary interview sources that are several years old; (2) the album has not reached a point where sourcing provides any concrete details about its content at all, making it fall short of
notability guidelines for unreleased material and
too soon to justify an article; (3) as such, the article makes inaccurate or speculative assessments about the album, such as assuming the runtime will be >199:40 from a 2017 tweet or implying that the release will contain the songs packaged for the Update Aquatic version; and (4) the article's content is currently more a coalescence of things that Rosenfeld has said or done after the sale of Minecraft to Microsoft, which may be better covered as a section under
C418.
VRXCES (
talk) 22:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Obvious
WP:NOTCRYSTALdelete, especially since if released it will have a real title and this will be an inappropriate redirect.
Mangoe (
talk) 02:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm fine with a delete here. The album is already brought up on C418's article and most of the sources used here are unrelated to the album itself or are somewhat poor. Has a lot of issues relating to fan speculation that I don't think can be solved since the album appears to be dead.
Neo Purgatorio (
talk) 02:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
the article appears to be very promotional. I also searched up the name, and it appears to plagarize his youtube channel's description.
Gaismagorm (
talk) 20:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi; this is my first time both using Twinkle and participating in the AfD process, so try not to flame me too hard if I make a mistake here. This article has somewhat poor sourcing and I've done a check for his name to try and find anything on him but I've come up short. If anyone can find better sources for this, that would be great, but I'm unable to on my end.
Neo Purgatorio (
talk) 00:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: nothing in the article suggests notability per
WP:MUSICBIO and I'm unable to find any significant coverage online.
InDimensional (
talk) 11:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Doesn't meet WP:NCORP. No primary sources, no reliable sources. There is one article about this label signing a part with SM Entertainment, but that alone doesn't subject to notability.
𝓡𝔂𝓭𝓮𝔁 08:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
Delete: We had this about a year ago, here we are again, still not notable. The source chart is overly generous with a few sources, but I agree it's a !delete, this is PROMO.
Oaktree b (
talk) 23:52, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete looks like promotion per sources provided. No deep coverage by independent sources.
Tumbuka Arch (
talk) 11:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete. The subject of this article has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources. Some of the sources (ThisDay) cited in the article are not independent of him and others (The Nation newspaper) are promotional to say the least. The awards he has won or been nominated for aren't notable.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 17:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Fails
WP:GNG/
WP:NBIO, and I do not believe being a producer for a notable band is an automatic
WP:NMUSIC pass either. I could not locate sources with substantial coverage of Ratcliff. All sources cover him only peripherally, as a producer for a-Ha. The article is now primarily an autobiography. Would accept a redirect to
a-Ha as an alternative to deletion.
Jfire (
talk) 03:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I not only re- produced the final masters of 8 of the tracks on a-ha’s 15 million selling first album Hunting High and Low but I also discovered them in 1983 and kept them, gave them £thousands and helped secure a record deal with Warners. I managed them under contract from 1983 to 1993 and without my financial and creative input they would have returned to Norway and never been heard of again! How dare you propose to delete this article. I have nearly completed my autobiography which inevitably contains the entire story of how I rescued them when they had no money left and put them in my recording studio for 2 years without any return for another 12 months.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 01:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
agree that REDIRECT to
a-Ha is appropriate. Most sources are primary references. The only third party references are more about a-Ha with this subject being mentioned tangentially. Otherwise, this article seems more promotional than anything else.
ShelbyMarion (
talk) 18:27, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
How dare you presume! You know nothing. In 1983 a-ha came into my studio but ran out of money after 2 weeks. For the next 2 years I covered every housing cost., food cost and leisure costs out of my own pocket because I believed in their talent.I also let them have free studio time for 2 years during which we recorded and produced nearly all of the tracks on their first album. I became their manager in 1983 and their contract lasted with me until 1993!Their best 10 years to date.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 01:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I.will take legal action if you have the cheek to remove this article. My autobiography is almost finished detailing my entire 10 years managing the band and the consequences for both a-ha and myself. 200 million record sales for a start! If you want a copy of my management contract with a-ha just ask. I lost my house and marriage while supporting the band before their success. Buy my autobiography next year and you can read every detail. Nobody, nobody knows the ‘a-ha’ history better than I do.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 01:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Get your facts right. I discovered the band when they came into my studio and spent 2 weeks recording. I liked what I heard and when they ran out of time and money I supported them for 2 years before Take on Me became a bestseller.I was contractually their Manager from 1983 to 1993. I re-produced 8 out of 10 tracks on their first and most popular album Hunting high and Low.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 02:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: There are two decent sources on the article, both telling the story of the recording of "Take On Me": "
Talking Away: A-Ha On The Making Of Take On Me" on The Quietus, and "
Classic Tracks: A-ha 'Take On Me'" on Sound on Sound. There may be some claim to notability. However, the article subject badgering us and making legal threats on this deletion discussion makes it difficult for me to vote keep.
Toughpigs (
talk) 02:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
If you are not going to allow this article to remain then you are ignoring the truth of the matter. I thought the truth was a basic necessity of a site that should only provide fact.I am only writing as a matter of principle. My lawyers will only reveal their legal expertise. Buy the album…my name is all over the sleeve. More times than the band members themselves
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 02:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
To toughpig. I don’t give a damn - oh sorry..is that blasphemy? In this day and age? I am in no way making threats! I am merely standing up for myself and the truth.Who is your superior? Put him/her on to it before I wake up my lawyer and we can sort this out legally and properly.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 02:47, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I now understand the reason for your username. Well I am tough too but my lawyer is tougher, and very expensive as you will discover should this minuscule matter not be resolved satisfactorily.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 02:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
To tough pig. It says you have ‘2 decent sources’. What better ‘source’ could you have but myself. I discovered, produced and managed ‘a-ha’ for 10 years from 1983 to 1993. I think my knowledge of this entire matter is inevitably going to be seen as the most accurate. Your organisation obviously listens hardest to those names you recognise. You don’t realise that it’s the people behind the names who have a far greater knowledge and understanding for detail than you ever will. Change your username….or is it your real name? I do apologise.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 03:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It will be very easy for me to find out who you really are.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 03:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
217.137.18.193, stop your threats.
WP:NLT and
WP:OUTING are policies here. You can vent, and you can argue for this article to be kept, but you can't harass people.
Jfire (
talk) 04:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Read my opening statements from the top again.
Johnratcliff (
talk) 04:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I am not harassing anyone. I am merely pointing out that I am not ‘just’ their producer. I discovered them in 1983, kept, housed, fed and gave them my studio for 2 years,signed them to an extremely lucrative management contract for 5 years and then to a major deal with Warners. That is an awful lot more than ‘producing’ a track don’t you think?
Johnratcliff (
talk) 04:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I was their manager from 1983 to 1993.I still get royalties!
Why am I having to justify facts that are common knowledge in my industry?
Johnratcliff (
talk) 04:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I saw your opening statement and I believe you when you say you've done all those things for the band and were important to their success. But saying things like "I will take legal action if you have the cheek to remove this article", "My lawyers will only reveal their legal expertise", "before I wake up my lawyer and we can sort this out legally", and "It will be very easy for me to find out who you really are" is not okay here. You need to avoid making statements that can be construed as legal threats or threats to reveal someone's identity.
"Why am I having to justify facts that are common knowledge in my industry?" is a valid question. The answer is that one of the pillars of Wikipedia is that information here is
verifiable: readers must be able to check that any information is not just made up. That means we can't rely on what's "common knowledge" in any industry unless it's been published in
reliable sources somewhere. When your autobiography is published, we may be able to use it as a source in
a-ha (depending on whether it is
self-published or not). But we can't just rely on your own personal statements here, even if we believe them.
Jfire (
talk) 04:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I apologise if you feel I was harassing you. ‘a-ha’ is a very sensitive subject for me. I gave up my home and lost my wife and young child on account of my involvement with a-ha. So it is a passionate and sensitive subject.
Redirect to
a-ha (with merging in of any useful information) pending publication of the autobiography referred to by the 217 IP (who appears to be the same person as
Johnratcliff?). If it gets reviews in reliable sources, the article can then be reinstated based on those in addition to the few good sources currently present. Notability is borderline at present, since it can't be
inherited from the band (and since our criterion for an independent page is notability, not admiration). The article is an under-referenced BLP and the last paragraph is stylistically inappropriate: "PS ... John". But it may be rewritable from sources a year from now.
Yngvadottir (
talk) 08:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect per above, does not seem independently notable.
Slatersteven (
talk) 09:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect per Yngvadottir. I removed a lot of recent COI additions that were entirely unsourced. Those should not be in a BLP. What remains are 4 sources that I will throw into a source analysis table:
A primary source that says nothing about Ratcliffe in any case
✘No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
However the redirect is reasonable as this is clearly someone who gets a mention regarding a-ha and is borderline notable. Although the above assessment covers what is in the page, there could be more secondary sources on him. However the name is quite common and searching is complicated by finding other notable Jonh Ratcliffes. I was not able to find any suitable coverage, but if multiple independent reliable secondary sources with sigificant coverage can be found, then, of course, this would be a notable subject for a page.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk) 10:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
a-ha: Not enough notability outside of a-ha to warrant an individual page.
InDimensional (
talk) 11:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
a-ha. I haven't been able to find sources to support
WP:GNG beyond those mentioned here, and none of those support a stand-alone article.
Schazjmd(talk) 16:33, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - Three of the citations presented (2 Farsi and
1 Enlglish) seem to be OK. The
Persian version of this has 17 citations and I saw some Ok ones there, such as
1,
2. We can't just assume because something is in a foreign language, it is unreliable. He seems to be well known in his country.
Yolandagonzales (
talk) 09:09, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Most of the coverage I found relates to her being married to cricketer
Ed Cowan so
WP:NOTINHERITED applies. Found no significant coverage of her or her career to meet
WP:BIO.
LibStar (
talk) 02:42, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete –The article has been around for 15 years and yet is struggling to justify notability. Add content about her to her husband's page. Should she satisfy
WP:GNG at a later date, cross this bridge then.
MaskedSinger (
talk) 06:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Cannot locate any
in-depth,
significant coverage to demonstrate that this nightclub passes
WP:GNG. Some passing mentions, but that's all I can locate. -- Mike🗩 19:03, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
KEEP it's a good article.
Evangp (
talk) 17:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC) — Note to closing admin:
Evangp (
talk •
contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this
AfD.
Richard3120 (
talk) 21:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Note to closing adminRichard3120 is a person that wants to delete this article.
Evangp (
talk) 00:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
no, that is plenty sufficient as a basis to keep this article.
Evangp (
talk) 00:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 23:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
KEEP it's a good article.Evangp (
talk) 00:41, 28 April 2024 (UTC) Duplicate vote stricken. -- Mike🗩 20:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: fails
WP:GNG,
WP:ORGCRIT and
WP:ORGDEPTH. The only thing that can be verfied is that this was a venue in Fern Park, Florida – everything else is original research by the article creator. Setlist.fm fails
WP:USERG and is not a reliable source, and for some reason a picture of a T-shirt with the venue's logo is considered evidence of notability. That leaves two very brief passing mentions in the local newspaper, which tell you nothing about the venue.
Richard3120 (
talk) 21:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment if we can verify the article's claim that it is the second largest record label in Indonesia, it's definitely worthy of inclusion.
Chubbles (
talk) 14:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk) 03:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Zero inline sources in entire article, no evidence of significant notability online. The article is of significant length, but there are few sources and none inline. 2003LN6 05:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: Highly promotional and is practically a list of accomplishments without sourcing.
Shadow311 (
talk) 15:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. There are
hundreds of reviews of his work, and he has directed and/or choreographed numerous
West End musicals. Obviously, no one did the research to add references to this article, but that is not a justification for deletion at AfD. I agree that the massive list of credits should be severely culled, but that is a task for another day. --
Ssilvers (
talk) 17:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep Strong news coverage exists as stated by
Ssilvers. He seems to have some awards as well. IMO, it should not have been nominated.
Perfectstrangerz (
talk) 01:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Desertarun (
talk) 08:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep definitely meets
WP:GNG although article needs clean up.
Orange sticker (
talk) 10:49, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep Yes the writing is crummy needing a rewrite but notability is met here.
X (
talk) 13:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
There are no references in the article and I can't find any reliable sources online covering the band.
XabqEfdg (
talk) 01:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment I see plenty of non-RS, looks like they last put anything out in 2005, and their albums are still available via eBay. Not my area of expertise, but I suspect this might be saveable if someone can find reviews.
Jclemens (
talk) 06:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep as they do have a staff written AllMusic bio
here which states that their first album was released in 16 countries to considerable acclaim. Haven't done a full search yet,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 22:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete. I dug for sources and did not find any reliable ones. I unfortunately think an Allmusic bio is not enough when not coupled with reviews. According to
this page, there exists one review in HM Magazine (formerly Heaven's Metal Magazine), but that's a bit thin as well. Scene-wise, the lack of coverage is not unexpected either, seeing as thrash metal was long out of favour when this band started releasing.
Geschichte (
talk) 19:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk) 06:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per Gechichte. I also cannot find anything sufficint to demonstrate notability. Fails
WP:NBAND
This article on a USA-based record label, created in 2010, is unreferenced. Per
WP:Before no sigcov found including in searches in both the wikipedia library and standard search engine, except a passing mention in Billboard (
[6]). Subject fails to meet notability guidelines. As there aren't guidelines in place for record labels - I expect
WP:NORG applies. Resonant
Distortion 16:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk) 18:11, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: The newspapers used now in the article for sourcing are all there is for this person; I don't see notability beyond the local level. I can't find any mention of them otherwise.
Oaktree b (
talk) 19:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete The fact she has been seen on multiple movies which has a wikipedia page doesn't qualify her to have a wikipedia page. This is just like the case of
Lucy Grantham (2nd nomination). The subject Mehr Hassan fails
WP:GNG. Her first AFD which was keep was just a two vote of keep which was still saying because she appeared in a movie. No independent reliable source, No award won or being nominated as an actress or dancer. I really don't see anything notable. --
Meligirl5 (
talk) 17:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Does having just one reliable source qualifies a person of having a Wikipedia page?
Hassan started her dancing career as a stage performer in the United States.
How do we believe such statement with no reliable source.?--
Meligirl5 (
talk) 00:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. Meets
WP:NACTOR, which is clearly the applicable guideline.
rspεεr (
talk) 14:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 23:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Soft Keep.
WP:NACTOR appears to hold here for now, although perhaps the articles for the films she starred should be reviewed for their notability. The bottom line is that long as those films are notable, she is, if barely.
Stefen Towers among the rest!Gab •
Gruntwerk 16:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I'm familiar with a "Soft Delete" but can anyone define a "Soft Keep" for me? Do you mean "Weak Keep"? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 22:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Unreferenced article since 2011. Searching for refs is difficult as there is a more successful band called "The Wallflowers", but even after including band members names into the search it seems like they received no coverage. Nothing in the article writeup suggests Wikipedia notability.
InDimensional (
talk) 11:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I’m the original article author. Happy to have article deleted. Band came to an end in 1998 with little notable activity.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 06:31, 20 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk) 08:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Unreferenced article. I couldn't find any significant coverage on the web; it's tough to search for them as their name is shared with a few other groups, but by including band members I found only a very brief Q&A on sfgate.com and an album review on aural-innovations.com, neither of these seem like
WP:SIGCOV and nothing in the article suggests notability per
WP:BANDInDimensional (
talk) 22:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep as they do have a staff written AllMusic bio
here which states that they had a nationwide tour which is one of the criteria at
WP:NMUSIC. Haven't done a full search yet,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 22:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 22:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 00:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I think this is a non-existent term and there are not many related reference materials in the article. Meets the criteria of Delete policy 6. Neologisms, it is recommended to delete.
SU YIQI (
talk) 05:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete. I suggested this to be deleted a few months back, saying sourcing is poor and article is confusing. Folks said 'sources exist in Chinese', without citing any or improving the article. At best I think we should move it to a draftspace or userspace if someone wants to work on this; otherwise, deleting this is no big loss, given how poorly written this is - it can be recreated from scratch if someone cares, with proper sources (
WP:TNT) later. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 09:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. I don't think anything has really changed since the last nomination. There's extensive sourcing at
zh:春哥 which seems to be enough to meet GNG. As I said last time, the article could certainly use work, but it's an okay starting point and doesn't need TNT. —
Mx. Granger (
talk·contribs) 23:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 07:28, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Hey man im josh (
talk) 12:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This particular music genre fails
WP:GNG,
WP:NMUSIC and
WP:SUBNOT. It has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources, and there isn't a single reliable source that discusses the genre in detail. All of the article's sources involve artists self-describing their music as Afro-fusion via press releases and interviews. The page creator gathered tons of random sources that mention the term "Afro fusion" and piece them together to create the article. Note to closing administrator: This discussion needs adequate time and my hope is that enough participants contribute to the discussion. Let me also add that the article contains false information. The page creator claims that the genre was "developed in South Africa" and "universalized by Freshlyground". However,
the source cited to support this info doesn't state any of this. As a matter of fact, the source states that Freshlyground's style of music is unofficially called Afro fusion and that it "contains elements of traditional South African music with blues, jazz and a spoonful of indie rock".
Here are a few sources from the article. I created the table below to show that none of the article's sources discuss the music genre. The table isn't complete but if you go through each source, you will see that none of them discuss the music genre.
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
Comment: Afrofusion is a
fusion genre "Fusion music, also known as crossover music, is a genre that blends various musical styles together to create unique and innovative compositions. It often combines elements of different genres such as jazz, rock, classical, or world music to create a new sound that transcends traditional boundaries. The essence of fusion music lies in its experimental nature and the exploration of new musical horizons." (
[1]) which by definition and explicit demonstration is the style of music associated-acts of afrofusion, illustrate.
A Google books search on "afro fusion" retains over 1000 results. (
[8])
"The band is known for its eclectic sound that combines elements of South African traditional music, jazz, blues, and indie rock. Freshlyground's music often features a mix of languages, including English, Xhosa, Zulu, and French, and their lyrics often address social and political issues such as poverty, inequality, and corruption."
[9] (
Freshlyground) (
African Music Library Org)
"their sound is equally diverse, dipping into
kwaito,
folk, blues and jazz" (Freshlyground)
[10] (
Mail & Guardian, 2006)
"There have always been
rock,
reggae, jazz and Afro-fusion bands in South Africa", "A brief profile of
Laka's Afro fusion band image" - (Gavin Steingo, Kwaito's Promise Music and the Aesthetics of Freedom in South Africa,
JSTOR - ISBN:9780226362687, 022636268X)
"Kenyan afrofusion arrived on the scene soon after the turn of the of the twenty-first century..." - (
Georgina Born , Music and Digital Media A planetary anthropology, ISBN:9781800082434, 1800082436)
Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Africa and
Nigeria. dxneo (
talk) 19:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: So
Versace1608 and
Qaqaamba have an
open discussion at
WP:ANI complaining about content dispute/edit warring on "
Khona" and related articles, use of foul language and breaking the
WP:3RR rule just to mention a few. The discussion hasn't been concluded yet but here you are again on AfD. dxneo (
talk) 19:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: The article lacks clarity regarding the specific stylistic elements or
rhythmic patterns that distinguish Afro-fusion as a distinct genre
[11]. The article conflates afro fusion a term used in describing different genres of music as one specific genre of music
[12][13][14]. For example, artists such as
Burna boy,
BNXN, and
Omah Lay are used within the article and the sources of the article. These artists are mostly
Afrobeats artists
[15][16][17] with the name Afro-Fusion being used to describe their style of music as an offshoot or
subgenre of
afrobeats[18][19]. Also, it is very important to note that the existence of the term afro fusion being used by multiple different sources on google books or jstor is not a good enough example of the existence of this genre especially considering that when these sources are reviewed one by one each of them are talking about different genres of music that often has nothing to do with each other, with some sources using the term afro fusion in referring to the fusion of foods.
Bernadine okoro (
talk) 18:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: Per above, the problem is not that "afro-fusion" as a term doesn't exist, because it obviously does. The problem is that various artists in different places (e.g Nigeria, South Africa) have used the name "Afro-fusion" to refer to /completely different things. This article, however, conflates them as some sort of connected, unified, related movement, which simply isn't the case and sources do not suggest as much. It's quite clear, for example, that what "Burna Boy" calls afro-fusion is simply an extension of
Afrobeats, which is completely different to what, say, Sakaki Mango is calling "afro-fusion". This ultimately stems from the belief from the creator of the article that genre-names cannot be re-used by unrelated sounds. The result of this is a synthesis of various sources to suggest unrelated topics are all related to each-other.
HarrySONofBARRY (
talk) 20:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: I took a short wiki-break. As per Versace1608's stipulations at ANI prior to this AfD, Versace1608's main concerns appeared to be whether the genre originated in South Africa or not and that "Burna Boy coined the term afrofusion" - which has/have been answered/established via sources in the article. As per the purpose of this AfD does the particluar article fail WP:GNG, WP:NMUSIC, WP:SUBNOT and has it been discussed in reliable secondary sources?
HarrySONofBARRY - as per
/info/en/?search=Talk:Afroswing#Third_opinion you agreed that any re-directs for "afrofusion" to
afrobeats should be edited/deleted. Other editors appear to have edited multiple re-directs however it appears there is still a current re-direct from afrofusion to afrobeats,remainder/apparent. The stylistic origins/(influences) have been updated. In addition to previous listed stylistic origins ;
world music,
worldbeat,
crossover music →
traditional African music,
Afropop and
experimental music have been added as per sources , primary as well as secondary and context of the dance genre and musical style. In regards to Afro fusion as a
cuisine, I believe that is a completely different topic and would hypothetically speaking be article: afro fusion (cuisine).
Qaqaamba (
talk) 22:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I have removed the Omah Lay, (now,previous) citation
[20]
I have removed Burna Boy paragraphs/mentions from the article as per taking an in-depth look as well as , as per
Talk:Burna Boy#Removal of Afrofusion discussion, although the artist claims he has pioneered Afro fusion as a
genre, that proves to be false as per the article, in addition as per
afrobeats' stylistic origins, the musical genres the musician has been blending up to date appear to be in fact the genres which indeed , make up afrobeats' (if I am not mistaken) and not afrofusion's true stylistic origins nor influences as per combined sources.
I have removed BXN's, (now previous) citation
[21], although he blends an additional "non-afrobeats stylistic origin" genre
Drill which is illustrative of the afrofusion musical style, in itself - the source stipulated previous contradictory information in regards to "it sees BNXN put his own stamp on Afrofusion – a term coined by Burna Boy to describe his own genreless style." As per afro-fusion article, sources and above we have established that Burna Boy did not coin the term.
@
Versace1608 as per
Talk:Burna Boy#Removal of Afrofusion discussion and HarrySONofBarry's concerns will you still add a section inclusive of a hatnote in the afrobeats article differentiating in regards to afrofusion as an evidential term/ hypernym/idiom and the actual afrofusion dance genre and musical style?
Question: Should afrobeats be added as a regional scene in the afrofusion article i.e. "regional scene: {{hlist| [[afrobeats]]| Nigeria]]?
But then the issue isn't just about removing artists whose style of music have been described with the term Afro fusion the issue is whether Afro fusion exists as a
musical style of its own hereby needing a standalone article. To classify Afro fusion as a musical style of its own it means it must have a
rhythmic pattern of its own because all music has rhythmic pattern even noise has rhythmic patterns.
[22][23] For example, afrobeats has the
Clave (rhythm) as a rhythmic pattern, rock music has
four-on-the-floor pattern while house music has a four-by-four beat pattern with a bass drum kick hitting on every beat from the article afro fusion seems to not have one.
[24][25][26]The article dates the genre as early as the 1970s but it seems that there is already another musical style that has been described as Afro fusion dating to the 1950s
[27]. Also, I find this statement broad
“By definition of a fusion genre and illustration of the afro-fusion musical style by associated-acts it is a genre and musical compositional form which incorporates traditional African music as well as Afropop, additionally spans between and blends various genres in a crossover-like style.”
For one
Afropop is not a specific style of music, most often Afropop is used in describing any genre of music that is popular within the African continent or simply any African music. The afropop article talks about this
[28]
Secondly if this style of music is the blending of any style of music with African traditional music, then that alone makes multiple different fusion styles of music that are within the
continent to be afro fusion. But if that's what this article is about then the mentioning of 1970s South Africa as the cultural origins of this style of music will confuse readers because all fusion genres within the African continent didn't begin in South Africa. Also, there are fusion styles in Africa that predates the 1970s
[29][30].
So basically, the problem is that the article is not specific on what Afro fusion is as regards to it being a specific musical standalone style.The article, at its most effective, appears to gather every and any references to afrofusion in music without providing a clear definition of the genre itself.
Bernadine okoro (
talk) 00:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A musical style describes techniques and methodologies definied as or identified by composers of music and/or theorist of music. .
"but it seems that there is already another musical style that has been described as Afro fusion dating to the 1950s" - if I am not mistaken and this is the source and specific sentence you are referring to
[31] " ...Ace Afrofusion pioneers one cannot forget to mention the ace Ghanian drummer
Kofi Ghanaba (years active 1950s to 2008) whose late 1950s and early 1960s Afro-jazz style influenced
Tony Allen (years active 1960s/1970s to 2020) and predated the afro-fusion music of
Fela Kuti (years active 1960s to 1990s) by a decade" published by John Collins, in 2015 ( after the release of afrofusion and soca song "
Waka Waka (This Time for Africa) (2010), which accelerated the usage of the term to describe both former historical as well as present day illustrations of fusing African music with Western music. It appears the author used it as an
adjective, additionally the author is referring to Afro-jazz (which appears to be a fusion of African music and jazz) which numerous African countries , claim or label and appear to have "pioneers" of e.g.
Hugh Masekela ( years active 1950s to 2018) "Masekela began to hone his, now signature, Afro-Jazz sound in the late 1950s during a period of intense creative collaboration"
[32] or
Manu Dibango ( years active 1968 to 2020). Google infobox for "Afro-jazz" -
[33]. Furthermore
African Jazz Pioneers (also Afro-jazz ) (Years active:1950s -present) stipulates the origin as "still", Johannesburg,
South Africa. African Jazz pioneers was also inclusive of
Dudu Pukwana a member of
Assagai an
afrorock band. Afrorock blends elements of rock music with African influences which would hypethically speaking , if not by sources also be described as or make useage of the term "an afrofusion band/ genre". The fact that the term was coined by South African/(s) Sylvia Glasser and Vincent Mantsoe has already been confirmed and established via numerous reliable primary and secondary sources years prior to the publishing of the specific book and source you are referencing
[34].
Marabi , which combines numerous musical styles including
jazz emerged and evolved from the 1890s to 1920s and beyond in, South Africa.
Afrofusion as a musical style and clear evidential
fusion genre as per stylistic origins/ influences such as traditional African music or
afropop genres and the technique, the rhythmic pattern of the song(s) would be and depend on which genre(s) are used at that specific time or point (from the perspective of a fusion genre that would mean , 100s if not 1000s of evidential
rhythms ot as you've linked to display "rhythmic patterns" i.e.
Freshlyground's musical compositions for instance often blended
kwaito with
indie-rock. A song released in this musical style's rhythmic patterns would then be
four on the floor ,
strumming pattern,
ride cymbal and
clave., if not more.
The fact is that there is a plethora of both reliable primary and secondary sources confirming the musical style's definite, existence additionally as a distinct dance and musical style, (particulary, afrofusion).
I believe anything else, if necessary and of factual notable importance or significance could/ would be edited accordingly. The notion for this AfD is that "This particular music genre fails
WP:GNG,
WP:NMUSIC and
WP:SUBNOT. It has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources, and there isn't a single reliable source that discusses the genre in detail."
As per reliable primary and secondary sources, afrofusion as both a dance and musical style emerged during the
apartheid era, a period marked by limited access to well-recorded and easily shareable information.
"Also, there are fusion styles in Africa that predates the 1970s
[22][23]". It is simply indicative of
precursors possibly even for
afrobeat or afrobeats.
The emergence of a musical genre involves a specific time period, reflecting the state of the world, country, or city at that time, along with distinct stylistic origins, influences, and locations. For instance,
Tsapiky fused South African pop with native
Malagasy traditions in the 1970s, indicative of the musical landscape and cultural influences of that era. While afrofusion originated in the 1970s to 1980s, it remains relevant, unlike Tsapiky, which has waned in popularity.
Musical instruments,
compositional techniques, and cultural influences evolve over time, shaping fusion genres differently across various periods and regions in African music history before the 1970s, various African fusion genres existed, each characterized by distinct time periods, stylistic origins, influences, locations, and cultural contexts within the diverse musical landscape of the continent.
Worldbeat, a genre blending
pop or rock with world music, differs from afro-fusion, which originated in the 1970s in South Africa, blending various specifically
African pop genres. Worldbeat emerged in the mid-1980s in the UK and US, reflecting integrated cultural influences. Afrofusion, being a progressive and living genre opposed to "dead genre" which would've meant did not regain or maintain mainstream popularity, incorporates elements from worldbeat and other styles, suggesting a stylistic connection. Artists like
Miriam Makeba[35], prominent in afrofusion's early years, were influential figures in
world music/ worldbeat as well. Although it diverges from the main topic, it seems possible that worldbeat could perhaps be considered a subgenre or derivative form of afrofusion, given the timeline and historical context.
As an umbrella term, afro-fusion does not negate the existence of precursors, it remains distinct from them. Its origins are firmly established in the 1970s to 1980s, supported by abundant reliable primary and secondary sources.
Bernadine okoro's claim that "To classify Afro fusion as a musical style of its own it means it must have a
rhythmic pattern of its own" seems like an unreasonable standard.
Heavy metal music and
Punk rock are different styles but share the same basic rhythmic pattern. I know of at least one black metal song in 3/4 time, but that doesn't mean that it's in the same musical style as
The Blue Danube. There are other elements that define a musical style. --
Slashme (
talk) 09:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Right, there are other elements that define musical styles. The reason why I picked rhythmic patterns is because they’re a little bit more of an easier signifier of a musical style. However, I feel I didn't properly convey what i meant, i was trying to get to the very fact that every music has a rhythmic pattern the Afro-fusion article doesn't list any much signifier. So basically I'm trying to understand the style of music this genre of Afro-fusion is because multiple different musical styles use the term Afro-fusion to define their style of music like in the case of
Burna boy using Afro-fusion to describe his unique style of afrobeats or
Magixx who have also been described as an afro-fusion artist i.e.
Afrobeats artist same with
Maleek Berry[36][37][38][39][40][41]. The article is not clear for example it uses a source of the 2019 Pearl Rhythm Festival which was hosted in Uganda there aren't any sources that could back up the very fact as to regards whether the Afro-fusion mentioned in the source is the same as the one from South Africa
[42]. In all honesty, the article seems to amalgamate online articles or books that mention Afro-fusion into one single Wikipedia article, especially in the history section. And again this is faulty because there are multiple different styles of music that the term Afro-fusion has been used in describing
[43]. It is not one style of music stemming from South Africa and if it is, then the article needs to be a little bit more descriptive about that or leave a note at the top that conveys to readers that the afro fusion musical style practiced in uganda or nigeria is not the same as this south african one.
Bernadine okoro (
talk) 20:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Emphasizing on stipulating rhythmic patterns seems irrelevant additionally it is inherent that any piece of music, be it a song or album, inherently contains
rhythm. The mere act of afrofusion musical style assosciated-acts, composing and publishing music inherently involves incorporating rhythm. Without rhythm a song or album would not be possible or realistically exist, which indicates you are indirectly insisting on the non-existence of afrofusion as a musical style/ afrofusion published bodies of work.
[44][45][46]
Afrofusion, as per reiterated numerous times, is a
fusion genre,musical style. A musical style encompasses a range of techniques and methodologies defined or identified by composers and music theorists, which in this case is afrofusion, a fusion genre, musical style. This fusion genre incorporates elements from multiple genres in a predominantly
experimental[47][48] and
crossover[49][50][51][52] manner , resulting in a diverse array of rhythms evident in published works . e.g. afrofusion trio,
Tananas' music fused jazz, ragtime, township jive, Mozambican salsa, and Spanish music., therefore the rhythmic patterns would be
four on the floor, 2/4, 3/2, 2/3 and
strumming pattern.
[53]
If my memory serves me correctly were you not the editor that previously linked
Freshlyground and genre "afrofusion" to
afrobeats in the bands music infobox although numerous sources clearly stipulate(s)/ed the bands genres being somewhat hyperly distinct from that of afrobeats as well as afrobeats being explicitly titled "afrobeats" and not afrofusion?
Afrofusion's title is explicitly, "Afrofusion" not e.g. Brazilian afrofusion or Chinese afrofusion, thus if a musician releases a body of work, as explicitly afrofusion and more importantly to highlight - not as a term to describe another fusion genre or musical style- it is in all probablity afrofusion.
Georgina Born described afrofusion as "Kenyan" afrofusion in like 3 sentences in her book and throughout the rest of the book, over 5 other pages, if not more, it is explicity and simply, "afrofusion"
[54]. Another book , "Kenya is home to a diverse range of music styles, ranging from imported popular music, afro-fusion and benga music to traditional folk songs."
[55]. Additionally, there is already a paragraph in the article that clearly stipulates "regional scenes" and if I am not mistaken as well as "music scenes."
As per Magixx's paragraph in the article and source "
"Get to know Magixx, Nigeria's next big afro-fusion star" ,the musician fused
trap, which is not a stylistic origin of
afrobeats - (
afrobeat,
Igbo highlife,
dancehall,
fuji,
hiplife,
highlifekpanlogo ,
hip hop,
jùjú,
R&B,
soca,
house), the source does not make any mention of afrobeats whatsoever. "Magixx's debut EP blends
Afropop (literally 100s, if not more of African popular music genres), trap and dancehall production", In 2019, after struggling to pay for studio sessions in uni, Magixx released ‘
Problem’, a succinct amalgamation of Afropop and Afro R&B sounds he was experimenting with at that time".
In the case of
Maleek Berry's mention in the paragraph in the afrofusion article as well as , as per sources
[49][50]. It is not surprising nor weird that it may be mistaken as
afrobeats given the Afro-Fusion redirect to Afrobeats etc., article. Maleek Berry featured in American rapper,
GoldLink's, Diaspora album. Maleek Berry and
Bibi Bourelly featured on the song, "Zulu Screams" in constrast to the song's title, "Zulu Screams" included Bibi Bourelly singing in
Lingala[51]. Additionally, one of the other characteristics that make up afrofusion is and/or
multilingualism, moreover not solely African languages. Which is not a characteristic of afrobeats
[52][53][54][55].
The notes you are proposing appear to be irrelevant, misleading and non-constructive especially as this is an AfD nor is this a
WP:DISPUTE. The most important notes/hatnotes would be one in the afrobeats article stipulating that Burna Boy is not the pioneer of afrofusion and is in fact making afrobeats as per yourself, Versace1608 and HarrySONofBarry stipulations as well as the usage of it as a term/hypernym.
The reason why I asked for the rhythmic patterns goes back to what I have been saying in my replies which is that there are different styles of music that the term afrofusion has been used in describing. Now in order to differentiate which musical style you maybe referring to it all partly boils down to how each musical style is arranged in i.e. characteristics that define this style of music from other musical styles that has been referred to as afro-fusion. Rhythmic patterns are much easier to identify hence why I asked and by rhythmic patterns I mean the beat pattern that this style of music often follows and not occasionally follows
[56]. From what you are saying it seems as though you are insinuating that this style of music follows all available rhythmic patterns which can be confusing because I don't think there is a genre that encompasses all rhythmic patterns just because it’s a fusion genre. This further broadens this style of music making it harder to identify. Although various genres of music allow for the fusion of different rhythmic patterns, they all have unique or specific patterns they all follow It is important to note that this doesn’t mean it can’t share a specific pattern with other genres of music like in the case of
rock music and
EdM[57]
As regards to
Magixx, that specific source might not make any mention of Afrobeats but other articles refer to his music as Afrobeats in fact he even said he is”…looking to leave an unforgettable imprint on Afrobeats” now if his style of Afro-fusion was the south African version he would have made that clear because it doesn’t seem like the song problem has anything to do with Zulu harmony
[58][59][60] Herein lies the problem with this article if afropop and African rhythm and blues are what makes the songs released by Magixx a style of afro-fusion that you are describing what stops any fusion style from Africa from being classified as afro-fusion? For example, although
highlife music is part of the stylistic origins of afrobeats a simple fusion of highlife and amapiano, does not make a song afrobeats but by your description with a few sources one can make an argument that the simple fusion of these styles of music can be classified as afro-fusion since it incorporates traditional African music and other genres of music.
Maleek Berry’s style of music has been referred to as afrobeats one article classifying him as afro fusionist doesn’t make him an artist that does South African afro fusion
[61][62][63].
Also from the
afrobeats article, the genre is shared between Ghana and Nigeria, and Afrobeats artists from other countries apart from these two countries sing in their native languages as a result technically making
multilingualism a part of Afrobeats.
[64][65][66] What am saying is that if you can describe a little bit more of the characteristics of this specific style of music it can help readers to differentiate what afro fusion is and what it is not when listening to it. Also, the notes/hatnotes should be in both the
Afrobeats article and in this one too. And, I am not the editor that previously linked Freshly ground “afro-fusion" to afrobeats in the band’s music infobox. I do not know what this is about, you are going to have to figure out which editor this is as it has nothing to do with me.
Bernadine okoro (
talk) 02:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Most music's base
rhythm is
four on the floor, however all distinct from one another because of stylistic/cultural origins, typical instruments and other elements (
rock,
blues,
house etc.)
There are not "different terms" of music Afro-fusion was used to describe. There's afrofusion as a
crossover,
experimentalfusion genre,musical style[67][68][69][70], specifically yourself and HarrySONofBarry adding(ed) "afrofusion" as "other name", in the body,lede and creating(ed) redirects for "Afro-Fusion/Afrofusion" to
afrobeats which obviously misleads, misinforms readers and is damaging to the purpose of the encyclopedia, and it being used as a term/hypernym
ISBN9780819575401.
You appear to be insinuating that because an artist is Nigerian or not South African, it is impossible for them to publish afro-fusion bodies of work. Additionally, it is not odd for a musician to dabble in different/various musical styles or genres and regional scenes/ music scenes are stipulated in paragraphs. Both implied points are illogical and not how music or art for that matter works, at all.
Repeatedly emphasized, the distinctiveness of a musical style stems from its stylistic origins, cultural roots (both geographical and literal), the prevailing global context and the circumstances surrounding its emergence, including the how and why behind its development. Most if not, all forms of music and art have
precursors.
Highlife emerged in the 19th century, its stylistic origins are ; (
Palm-wine music,
Akan music, Akan folklore,
African music) and incorporated jazz in the 1920s.
Marabi's roots are a fusion of European
hymnology and
spirituals during the late 19th to early 20th centuries as it developed from Makwaya, incorporating elements of jazz, ragtime, Pedi and Tswana bass traditions, alongside adaptations of Xhosa folk melodies into keyboard arrangements etc. (Both highlife and marabi evolved and emerged incorporating jazz 'round about the same time, although possible , South Africa "first" and then Ghana "followed"-
[71]). I am not certain why you're stipulating notes or hatnotes should be made for possible precursors,
hip hop does not need to be differientated from
talking blues or
rhythm and blues for numerous, obvious reasons.
Multilingualism is not included in the afrobeats article's characteristics. Afrofusion incorporated multilingualism as far back as the 80s
[72],
[73][74] , if not prior to, this would also be more evident or prominent, since South Africa is not solely close-national/descent homogenous (
ethnic groups in South Africa) like that of for instance China or Nigeria.
Afrikaans , an official language of South Africa , in itself emerged during the
Dutch Cape Colony from
Dutch dialects. Many Afrofusion bands are multi-cultural/national/racial/ethnic, contributing to the "fusion" and multilingual aspect by incorporating diverse cultural influences
[75][76][77] , "Tananas, a multiracial five-piece group from Cape Town, reflected that city's mixed heritage" - Billboard ,18 Feb 1995, p. 43
Even after excluding musicians from the article who might have mistakenly been labeled as afro-fusion due to the reasons stated earlier etc., I find it puzzling, why you continue to bring up and focus on afrobeats, making comparisons and fixating on it as a central topic.The point of this AfD was/is "that music genre fails
WP:GNG,
WP:NMUSIC and
WP:SUBNOT. It has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources, and there isn't a single reliable source that discusses the genre in detail."
To be clear, I agreed to a compromise solution so we could move forward with our conversation and ultimately deduced that a redirect is not as important as the other issues we were discussing.
As I raised there and on the Afrobeats talk page, I ultimately disagreed with your changes and wished to discuss it at a later date.
HarrySONofBARRY (
talk) 15:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A redirect plays a crucial role in guiding readers to related and, most importantly, accurate articles.
As per numerous discussions elsewhere, I repeatedly stipulated that musical genre/styles cannot explicity share the exact name and that differentiations are always/have to be made, e.g.
Hip hop and
Hipco both rap genres, however distinct from one another in regards to predominant location of origin, culture as well as stylistic origins/influences. Both yourself and Bernadine Okoro appear to insistently oppose this methodology and logic. Furthermore, hypothetically speaking introducing
Hip Hop vs. explicitly titled
Hip Hop (actually, Liberian Hip Hop/rap) into the encyclopedia is not only misleading as well as confusing to readers however damaging to the encyclopedia. Versace 1608, indirectly stipulated this amongst viewpoints in discussion
Talk:Burna Boy#Removal of Afrofusion, in regards to the fact that afrofusion shouldn't be linked in Burna Boy's article and once more as per above, a hatnote needed to be included in the afrobeats article.
It has been consistently established through numerous discussions that
Afrofusion (1970s - 1980s/2000s) does not explicitly ≠
Afrobeats (2000s/2010s), as well as obvious as per times of emergence and stipulated stylistic origins/influences. To conclude and addressing you as the most probable editor to possibly do this since you created the afrobeats article this aspect, the "undeletable/ ongoing" re-direct should be be deleted. Additionally, one cannot explicitly title afrobeats as afrofusion and even as other name in the infobox parameter, too would be confusing/misleading to readers. The hatnote appears to be the best solution.
Neutral:The first impression I had about this article was it will be notable but on looking at the sources I began to disagree with myself. I found sources that speak about the struggles of some supposedly "Afrofusion artists",
top artists claiming their musical genre was Afrofusion (even though critics address them as Afrobeats), and a few mentions of this supposed musical genre. What I didn't see were sources dedicated to analyzing the musical genre which I believe is fundamental to establishing it as one. If it is not deleted, it should probably be listed as a derivative of
Afrobeats.
HandsomeBoy (
talk) 15:10, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Based on the article, reliable primary and secondary sources, and the preceding discussion, to reiterate, it's apparent that while some artists may use "afrofusion" as a hypernym or term, the musical style itself predates the emergence of afrobeats in the 2000s to 2010s. It experienced a period of relative obscurity during apartheid but regained mainstream popularity in the 2000s. Categorizing afrofusion solely as a derivative of afrobeats would be illogical and misleading to readers, given its established existence prior to the rise of afrobeats.
Qaqaamba (
talk) 16:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I have watched videos of Fela telling international journalists that his brand of music is Afrobeats, and he died in the 90s. Fela is also regarded as the initiator of Afrobeats, so you are very wrong to say Afrobeats started in the 2000s or 2010s. Perhaps, you should allow others participate freely in the AFD. No need reacting to all the votes with incorrect info.
HandsomeBoy (
talk) 00:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
HandsomeBoy, please provide sources. dxneo (
talk) 00:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I should provide sources for what exactly?? Someone countered some aspects of my comment with incorrect information WITHOUT SOURCES, and you are fine with that. But you aren't fine with my isolated points. Well for the sake of others, please read
Fela Kuti you will see many sources there that talks about his connection with Afrobeats and the time he died. If you need something more concrete, please read his
Britanica page that calls him "Pioneer of Afrobeats". Please leave me alone. No one is obligated to use my !vote in closing the discussion.
HandsomeBoy (
talk) 18:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
HandsomeBoy, relax I didn't mean to step on your toe, your comment caught my eye and I thought if you provided sources to back your claims then this would be over. Another thing, we are discussing "Afro fusion" not
afrobeats, so
Fela Kuti is relevant how? dxneo (
talk) 20:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Dxneo, I believe you didn't read his comments. Handsomeboy meant that most of the supposedly afro fusion artists are always derivative of the main genre Afrobeats, which is most to everyone. Infact, their music is afro beats and there is neither a reason why there should be some wrong claim of those artists' music being called afro fusion. We're here to build an Encyclopedia and it must be "just" as neutral as possible. — Safari ScribeEdits!Talk! 06:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Africa and
Kenya. dxneo (
talk) 21:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: To hear from more independent editors please Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
StarMississippi 00:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: since this AfD was raised, the sourcing has greatly improved. For example, Georgina Born's book, (Born, Georgina (2022). Music and Digital Media A planetary anthropology.
UCL Press (published 12 September 2022). p. 67.
ISBN9781800082434.), which discusses the genre and its history in good detail, and a lot of newspaper and magazine articles which show that the term is used consistently and widely. --
Slashme (
talk) 09:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Slashme: Can you please provide a link to page 67? I believe you have access to this book since you've read page 67. I am trying to read the page you claimed discusses the genre in "good detail". I can't access it on my end without paying a fee.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 22:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the link. I disagree with your claim that the book discusses the genre in good detail. As a matter of fact, the genre isn't discussed at all. The four paragraphs that make up the section "Developing Afro fusion" is primarily about GidiGidi MajiMaji and Eric Wainanina's respective albums (Ismarwa and Sawa Sawa). The author also stated that those two acts are significant figures in Kenya's Afro fusion scene.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 17:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I disagree with your statement that "the genre isn't discussed at all". It talks about the institutional sponsors of Afro Fusion, the way that it's rooted in local culture, and the annual music festivals surrounding the genre. Saying that it's primarily about those two albums seems to me to be a strange mischaracterisation of the content. In fact, in the opening paragraph, the author says "Fostered by Nairobi's NGO sector and cosmopolitan middle class, and linked to the global 'world music' circuit, Kenyan Afro-fusion is marked by an aesthetic emphasis on live instrumentation over digitally programmed accompaniments, and the attempt to 'fuse' African aesthetics with Western popular music. It has thrived, as I will describe, on patronage from nongovernmental cultural institutions that find value in its underlying aim of cultivating a more modern 'Kenyan' sound." She then goes on to talk about these aspects in detail. This goes way beyond a simple mention of the topic, and absolutely supports the notability claim. Also, that section isn't the only part of the book that mentions the topic. It's referred to over and over again in discussions of the work of other artists. --
Slashme (
talk) 13:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Well, we can both agree to disagree. The section titled "Developing Afro fusion" does not discuss Afro fusion. It talks about GidiGidi MajiMaji and Eric Wainanina's respective albums (Ismarwa and Sawa Sawa) and highlighted both artists for being significant figures in Kenya's Afro fusion scene. I challenge anyone here to click on the link provided by Slashme and see for yourself.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 14:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Versace1608, please see the last two votes from
ANairobian and myself on why this shouldn't have even made it to AfD. dxneo (
talk) 14:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Your opinion is your opinion and isn't superior to mines. I've read all of the keep votes in this AFD and they aren't convincing in my opinion. I will not lose sleep if the article is kept or deleted. I have participated in tons of AFD in the past that did not end up the way I wanted it to end.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 15:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ToadetteEdit! 16:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: This is an article about music. However, looking at the discussion per se, it looks like the normal "Nigeria vs Ghana", ..vs South Africa", etc. On a note, Afro fusion does exist but for the article, it has so many claims even the ones removed and it alleges or neither shows it was written from a personal point of view (just like fans of Cristiano Ronaldo and fans of Lionel Messi will do to both article). There is only one way out: deletion to neutrality and a fundamental rewrite which should pass AFC and being to NPP. Safari ScribeEdits!Talk! 17:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep per Slashme. There is sufficient coverage in
WP:RS as per the sources cited by other editors, and the article meets our
notability guidelines. However, I would suggest renaming to
Afro fusion (music) to differentiate it from
Afro fusion (cuisine) when created, as an editor noted above.
Tamsier (
talk) 18:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Tamsier, renaming will be discussed separately after this AfD is closed and if/when the cuisine is created. dxneo (
talk) 19:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Tamsier, even if this should be closed as keep, it remains the primary topic and I can't find much research of the "cuisine". Until then, let's focus on AFD. — Safari ScribeEdits!Talk! 06:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Per
Slashme, why should it be deleted just so it can be recreated?
SafariScribe? If it isn't neutral then {{
clean up}} and {{
re-write}} is required. dxneo (
talk) 10:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: While this article may still have potential for improvement, it is sufficiently referenced in
WP:RS to meet
WP:GNG. It also seems to be generally written in a
WP:NPOV. Hence, the discussion should be about how to improve it, rather than whether to keep it.
ANairobian (
talk) 12:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
No notability evident in the article per
WP:BAND, mainly just states that they're straight edge and played some concerts. Additionally, I can't find any real coverage on them on the web.
InDimensional (
talk) 09:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. I don't know how the nom looked for sources, but they managed to miss and ignore the source cited in the article, from
Onet.pl, which meets SIGCOV and is reliable. So that's one - and it calls this band "legendary". Pl wiki lists two more sources, from a notable NGO, which calls one of its albums "cult" (
[78]). The band is mentioned in academic works, including in English, ex
[79] "most of the best Polish punk bands such as Apatia...". Other Polish sources:
[80] (onet again),
[81] (
Gazeta Wyborcza - Polish main newspaper of record),
[82] (
Życie Warszawy) I am not going to list more sources, but plenty exist even in English. The nominator deserves a
WP:TROUT for terrible execution of
WP:BEFORE, since finding sources does not even require speaking Polish (not that these days, with solid machine translation built into most browsers, this should be much of an excuse). PS. That said, the claim about them being mentioned in PWN I could not verify. The article needs improvement, here and on pl wiki, but this is no reason to nuke it. Sources I found here should be enough for anyone who cares to improve this article to get it to DYK level... maybe even I'll do it one day if I find the time. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 02:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 11:22, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 11:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep due to the multiple reliable sources coverage identified in this discussion by Piotrus that together show a pass of
WP:GNG so that deletion is unnecessary in my view,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 19:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep per above, preferably with at least pasting the mentioned sources into the article.
Geschichte (
talk) 15:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Tagged as unreferenced since 2009 but was actually unreferenced since 2006. No good hits on GNews and GBooks. GNews archives only turned out two ads related to it.
Alternatively,Redirect to
List of programs broadcast by ABS-CBN. --
Lenticel(
talk) 02:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 03:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 01:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete.
✗plicit 00:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This article has no sources and no indication of notability. It was nominated for deletion nearly 20 years ago and has not been improved since it was created in 2005. The subject does not meet any of the guidelines listed in
WP:NMUSIC nor
WP:NBIO.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Aneirinn (
talk •
contribs) 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete - It is important to note that the
WP:NMUSICIAN requirements have gotten much tougher since 2006, when this article survived an AfD discussion pretty much because the gentleman was visible on the Internet. Meanwhile, the current version of the article could possibly be speedy deleted under
WP:A7 because it makes no attempt to say how/if he is notable. At any rate, the gentleman is a perennial sideman and local performer who is surely good at what he does, but he has not received the in-depth media coverage that is necessary here, and is only visible in typical streaming and promotional services. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (
TALK|
CONTRIBS) 14:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Byron Berline: I searched but could not find in-depth coverage about Moore. It's not an easy search because of his name and he's played at many bluegrass festivals so a lot hot hits to wade through but I did add a couple sources at least for verification. He was in Berline's band California which won International Bluegrass Music Association Instrumental Group of the Year three years in a row and Moore is mentioned in article. He also taught mandolin to
Nickel Creek's
Chris Thile and
Sean Watkins which might qualify for
WP:NMUSICOTHER #3 or #5 but I think that's a weak claim.
S0091 (
talk) 16:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per my comments below.
S0091 (
talk) 18:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Shadow311 (
talk) 18:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Shadow311 (
talk) 19:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment - I voted to delete above, but if this keeps getting relisted with no further progress then we will probably end up with a pointless "no consensus". Therefore I would support the Redirect suggestion above if nobody else votes. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (
TALK|
CONTRIBS) 12:34, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete.
S0091 has made a valiant effort but I don't think this is a good redirect. If you searched for John Moore and were redirected to this article, I think you'd feel more confused than informed. (Sorry, Doomsdayer520, but I think even "no consensus" would be better than this confusing redirect.) --
asilvering (
talk) 03:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
My first choice is still Delete and will I stick with it now that I have some support. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (
TALK|
CONTRIBS) 16:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
No
backsies @
Doomsdayer520. :) Actually, I agree with @
Asilvering it's not a great redirect as there is no content to preserve in the event sources become available and a weak target so flipping my vote to delete.
S0091 (
talk) 18:02, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Fails
WP:NMUSIC. Just because we have several articles about music produced by him does not make him notable, I find that he is not notable as a musician or a producer.
Nagol0929 (
talk) 15:59, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: I haven't looked closely yet as to whether his article deserves to stay, but it seems to me a redirect to
Souls of Mischief might be a better option than outright deletion... yes, I know he is part of
Hieroglyphics (group) as well and therefore
WP:XY may be considered here, but Hieroglyphics is all of Souls of Michief plus four other people, so he's still a part of Hieroglyphics as a member of Souls of Mischief.
Richard3120 (
talk) 16:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: He clearly passes
WP:NMUSIC#C6 if he's part of two notable production groups. That doesn't mean we have to have a standalone article on him, just noting a discrepancy in the nom statement.
Mach61 20:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or merge to
Souls of Mischief as he does have some individual reliable sources coverage such as an AllMusic staff bio
here and a review of one of his 3 solo albums
here,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 21:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete Other than the 2 sources provided by above editor, there are not enough reliable coverage and 2 of the sources are interviews.
Bradelykooper (
talk) 08:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Shadow311 (
talk) 16:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect. None of the sources appear to be reliable, but a search of his name would go to the band's article, a compromise that we do sometimes.
Bearian (
talk) 14:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Shadow311 (
talk) 18:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Bearian: AllMusic is a reliable source as per [
[83]] and the bio and album review are not interviews as someone else claimed,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 22:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Atlantic306: the only problem is that AllMusic isn’t being used as a reference and all 3 of the references are interviews. Of those only 1 is about A-Plus.
Nagol0929 (
talk) 03:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Have added the AllMusic sources as references,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 14:00, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep There's a ton of sourcing (yes, from reliable sources) available on this guy in Google News and Books searches, over a period of decades. It's true that most of them are brief mentions, but with all of the info available, surely the article could be built out and sourced better than it is now. I had to get a little creative in looking for sources since "A plus" is such a generic term, but combining his name with "Hieroglyphics" or "Souls of Mischief" yields many good results.
Fred Zepelin (
talk) 19:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Final relist. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Daniel (
talk) 05:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Music. It is one of many
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Archived discussions (starting from September 2007) may be found at:
Does not meet
WP:GNG. Has had a {{notability}} tag for eight months with no improvements. References are either company listings, articles hosted by Hashtag Pop itself, or other news sources re-reporting their stories. A
WP:BEFORE search in Portuguese doesn't yield any reliable sources with significant coverage.
Jonathan Deamer (
talk) 16:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The article has a promotional feel. I wasn't able to find significant coverage of the subject (or, frankly, any coverage). There is a reference in the article, but it's just album liner notes.
toweli (
talk) 13:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
speedy delete as a copyvio of [
[1]]. The promotional reek of this article about a nn musician is exolained.
TheLongTone (
talk) 14:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment. Wow... that's a huge body of work. The list feels strongly in
WP:NOT territory. The lede is irrelevant to the topic of concerts, and the list thus lacks an explanation of why this is a relevant list. It's certainly not because such concerts are rare. The listed concerts are certainly vastly different in size too. Also, if the idea is to handle Japanese penetration of other music markets, why limit it to J-pop and exclude J-rock, metal etc.? Why even limit it to non-Asian countries, seeing as a concert in Lebanon would be just as "exotic" as one in Cyprus?
Geschichte (
talk) 14:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment. I'm indifferent to whether the article should be kept or deleted (though the latter would save me a buttload of work), but I'd like to point out there is a similar article titled
List of K-pop concerts held outside Asia, for which this discussion should also apply.
DragonFury (
talk) 15:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Proposing a draftify or merge to
C418 as an
alternative to deletion. Unfortunately I think this album is
non-notable for several reasons: (1) The album does not 'exist' yet per se; as it has not been announced, and most of the evidence relating to potential release or more information are primary interview sources that are several years old; (2) the album has not reached a point where sourcing provides any concrete details about its content at all, making it fall short of
notability guidelines for unreleased material and
too soon to justify an article; (3) as such, the article makes inaccurate or speculative assessments about the album, such as assuming the runtime will be >199:40 from a 2017 tweet or implying that the release will contain the songs packaged for the Update Aquatic version; and (4) the article's content is currently more a coalescence of things that Rosenfeld has said or done after the sale of Minecraft to Microsoft, which may be better covered as a section under
C418.
VRXCES (
talk) 22:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Obvious
WP:NOTCRYSTALdelete, especially since if released it will have a real title and this will be an inappropriate redirect.
Mangoe (
talk) 02:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm fine with a delete here. The album is already brought up on C418's article and most of the sources used here are unrelated to the album itself or are somewhat poor. Has a lot of issues relating to fan speculation that I don't think can be solved since the album appears to be dead.
Neo Purgatorio (
talk) 02:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
the article appears to be very promotional. I also searched up the name, and it appears to plagarize his youtube channel's description.
Gaismagorm (
talk) 20:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi; this is my first time both using Twinkle and participating in the AfD process, so try not to flame me too hard if I make a mistake here. This article has somewhat poor sourcing and I've done a check for his name to try and find anything on him but I've come up short. If anyone can find better sources for this, that would be great, but I'm unable to on my end.
Neo Purgatorio (
talk) 00:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: nothing in the article suggests notability per
WP:MUSICBIO and I'm unable to find any significant coverage online.
InDimensional (
talk) 11:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Doesn't meet WP:NCORP. No primary sources, no reliable sources. There is one article about this label signing a part with SM Entertainment, but that alone doesn't subject to notability.
𝓡𝔂𝓭𝓮𝔁 08:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
Delete: We had this about a year ago, here we are again, still not notable. The source chart is overly generous with a few sources, but I agree it's a !delete, this is PROMO.
Oaktree b (
talk) 23:52, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete looks like promotion per sources provided. No deep coverage by independent sources.
Tumbuka Arch (
talk) 11:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete. The subject of this article has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources. Some of the sources (ThisDay) cited in the article are not independent of him and others (The Nation newspaper) are promotional to say the least. The awards he has won or been nominated for aren't notable.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 17:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Fails
WP:GNG/
WP:NBIO, and I do not believe being a producer for a notable band is an automatic
WP:NMUSIC pass either. I could not locate sources with substantial coverage of Ratcliff. All sources cover him only peripherally, as a producer for a-Ha. The article is now primarily an autobiography. Would accept a redirect to
a-Ha as an alternative to deletion.
Jfire (
talk) 03:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I not only re- produced the final masters of 8 of the tracks on a-ha’s 15 million selling first album Hunting High and Low but I also discovered them in 1983 and kept them, gave them £thousands and helped secure a record deal with Warners. I managed them under contract from 1983 to 1993 and without my financial and creative input they would have returned to Norway and never been heard of again! How dare you propose to delete this article. I have nearly completed my autobiography which inevitably contains the entire story of how I rescued them when they had no money left and put them in my recording studio for 2 years without any return for another 12 months.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 01:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
agree that REDIRECT to
a-Ha is appropriate. Most sources are primary references. The only third party references are more about a-Ha with this subject being mentioned tangentially. Otherwise, this article seems more promotional than anything else.
ShelbyMarion (
talk) 18:27, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
How dare you presume! You know nothing. In 1983 a-ha came into my studio but ran out of money after 2 weeks. For the next 2 years I covered every housing cost., food cost and leisure costs out of my own pocket because I believed in their talent.I also let them have free studio time for 2 years during which we recorded and produced nearly all of the tracks on their first album. I became their manager in 1983 and their contract lasted with me until 1993!Their best 10 years to date.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 01:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I.will take legal action if you have the cheek to remove this article. My autobiography is almost finished detailing my entire 10 years managing the band and the consequences for both a-ha and myself. 200 million record sales for a start! If you want a copy of my management contract with a-ha just ask. I lost my house and marriage while supporting the band before their success. Buy my autobiography next year and you can read every detail. Nobody, nobody knows the ‘a-ha’ history better than I do.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 01:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Get your facts right. I discovered the band when they came into my studio and spent 2 weeks recording. I liked what I heard and when they ran out of time and money I supported them for 2 years before Take on Me became a bestseller.I was contractually their Manager from 1983 to 1993. I re-produced 8 out of 10 tracks on their first and most popular album Hunting high and Low.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 02:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: There are two decent sources on the article, both telling the story of the recording of "Take On Me": "
Talking Away: A-Ha On The Making Of Take On Me" on The Quietus, and "
Classic Tracks: A-ha 'Take On Me'" on Sound on Sound. There may be some claim to notability. However, the article subject badgering us and making legal threats on this deletion discussion makes it difficult for me to vote keep.
Toughpigs (
talk) 02:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
If you are not going to allow this article to remain then you are ignoring the truth of the matter. I thought the truth was a basic necessity of a site that should only provide fact.I am only writing as a matter of principle. My lawyers will only reveal their legal expertise. Buy the album…my name is all over the sleeve. More times than the band members themselves
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 02:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
To toughpig. I don’t give a damn - oh sorry..is that blasphemy? In this day and age? I am in no way making threats! I am merely standing up for myself and the truth.Who is your superior? Put him/her on to it before I wake up my lawyer and we can sort this out legally and properly.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 02:47, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I now understand the reason for your username. Well I am tough too but my lawyer is tougher, and very expensive as you will discover should this minuscule matter not be resolved satisfactorily.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 02:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
To tough pig. It says you have ‘2 decent sources’. What better ‘source’ could you have but myself. I discovered, produced and managed ‘a-ha’ for 10 years from 1983 to 1993. I think my knowledge of this entire matter is inevitably going to be seen as the most accurate. Your organisation obviously listens hardest to those names you recognise. You don’t realise that it’s the people behind the names who have a far greater knowledge and understanding for detail than you ever will. Change your username….or is it your real name? I do apologise.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 03:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It will be very easy for me to find out who you really are.
217.137.18.193 (
talk) 03:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
217.137.18.193, stop your threats.
WP:NLT and
WP:OUTING are policies here. You can vent, and you can argue for this article to be kept, but you can't harass people.
Jfire (
talk) 04:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Read my opening statements from the top again.
Johnratcliff (
talk) 04:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I am not harassing anyone. I am merely pointing out that I am not ‘just’ their producer. I discovered them in 1983, kept, housed, fed and gave them my studio for 2 years,signed them to an extremely lucrative management contract for 5 years and then to a major deal with Warners. That is an awful lot more than ‘producing’ a track don’t you think?
Johnratcliff (
talk) 04:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I was their manager from 1983 to 1993.I still get royalties!
Why am I having to justify facts that are common knowledge in my industry?
Johnratcliff (
talk) 04:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I saw your opening statement and I believe you when you say you've done all those things for the band and were important to their success. But saying things like "I will take legal action if you have the cheek to remove this article", "My lawyers will only reveal their legal expertise", "before I wake up my lawyer and we can sort this out legally", and "It will be very easy for me to find out who you really are" is not okay here. You need to avoid making statements that can be construed as legal threats or threats to reveal someone's identity.
"Why am I having to justify facts that are common knowledge in my industry?" is a valid question. The answer is that one of the pillars of Wikipedia is that information here is
verifiable: readers must be able to check that any information is not just made up. That means we can't rely on what's "common knowledge" in any industry unless it's been published in
reliable sources somewhere. When your autobiography is published, we may be able to use it as a source in
a-ha (depending on whether it is
self-published or not). But we can't just rely on your own personal statements here, even if we believe them.
Jfire (
talk) 04:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I apologise if you feel I was harassing you. ‘a-ha’ is a very sensitive subject for me. I gave up my home and lost my wife and young child on account of my involvement with a-ha. So it is a passionate and sensitive subject.
Redirect to
a-ha (with merging in of any useful information) pending publication of the autobiography referred to by the 217 IP (who appears to be the same person as
Johnratcliff?). If it gets reviews in reliable sources, the article can then be reinstated based on those in addition to the few good sources currently present. Notability is borderline at present, since it can't be
inherited from the band (and since our criterion for an independent page is notability, not admiration). The article is an under-referenced BLP and the last paragraph is stylistically inappropriate: "PS ... John". But it may be rewritable from sources a year from now.
Yngvadottir (
talk) 08:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect per above, does not seem independently notable.
Slatersteven (
talk) 09:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect per Yngvadottir. I removed a lot of recent COI additions that were entirely unsourced. Those should not be in a BLP. What remains are 4 sources that I will throw into a source analysis table:
A primary source that says nothing about Ratcliffe in any case
✘No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
However the redirect is reasonable as this is clearly someone who gets a mention regarding a-ha and is borderline notable. Although the above assessment covers what is in the page, there could be more secondary sources on him. However the name is quite common and searching is complicated by finding other notable Jonh Ratcliffes. I was not able to find any suitable coverage, but if multiple independent reliable secondary sources with sigificant coverage can be found, then, of course, this would be a notable subject for a page.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk) 10:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
a-ha: Not enough notability outside of a-ha to warrant an individual page.
InDimensional (
talk) 11:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
a-ha. I haven't been able to find sources to support
WP:GNG beyond those mentioned here, and none of those support a stand-alone article.
Schazjmd(talk) 16:33, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - Three of the citations presented (2 Farsi and
1 Enlglish) seem to be OK. The
Persian version of this has 17 citations and I saw some Ok ones there, such as
1,
2. We can't just assume because something is in a foreign language, it is unreliable. He seems to be well known in his country.
Yolandagonzales (
talk) 09:09, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Most of the coverage I found relates to her being married to cricketer
Ed Cowan so
WP:NOTINHERITED applies. Found no significant coverage of her or her career to meet
WP:BIO.
LibStar (
talk) 02:42, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete –The article has been around for 15 years and yet is struggling to justify notability. Add content about her to her husband's page. Should she satisfy
WP:GNG at a later date, cross this bridge then.
MaskedSinger (
talk) 06:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Cannot locate any
in-depth,
significant coverage to demonstrate that this nightclub passes
WP:GNG. Some passing mentions, but that's all I can locate. -- Mike🗩 19:03, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
KEEP it's a good article.
Evangp (
talk) 17:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC) — Note to closing admin:
Evangp (
talk •
contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this
AfD.
Richard3120 (
talk) 21:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Note to closing adminRichard3120 is a person that wants to delete this article.
Evangp (
talk) 00:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
no, that is plenty sufficient as a basis to keep this article.
Evangp (
talk) 00:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 23:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
KEEP it's a good article.Evangp (
talk) 00:41, 28 April 2024 (UTC) Duplicate vote stricken. -- Mike🗩 20:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: fails
WP:GNG,
WP:ORGCRIT and
WP:ORGDEPTH. The only thing that can be verfied is that this was a venue in Fern Park, Florida – everything else is original research by the article creator. Setlist.fm fails
WP:USERG and is not a reliable source, and for some reason a picture of a T-shirt with the venue's logo is considered evidence of notability. That leaves two very brief passing mentions in the local newspaper, which tell you nothing about the venue.
Richard3120 (
talk) 21:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment if we can verify the article's claim that it is the second largest record label in Indonesia, it's definitely worthy of inclusion.
Chubbles (
talk) 14:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk) 03:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Zero inline sources in entire article, no evidence of significant notability online. The article is of significant length, but there are few sources and none inline. 2003LN6 05:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: Highly promotional and is practically a list of accomplishments without sourcing.
Shadow311 (
talk) 15:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. There are
hundreds of reviews of his work, and he has directed and/or choreographed numerous
West End musicals. Obviously, no one did the research to add references to this article, but that is not a justification for deletion at AfD. I agree that the massive list of credits should be severely culled, but that is a task for another day. --
Ssilvers (
talk) 17:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep Strong news coverage exists as stated by
Ssilvers. He seems to have some awards as well. IMO, it should not have been nominated.
Perfectstrangerz (
talk) 01:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Desertarun (
talk) 08:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep definitely meets
WP:GNG although article needs clean up.
Orange sticker (
talk) 10:49, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep Yes the writing is crummy needing a rewrite but notability is met here.
X (
talk) 13:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
There are no references in the article and I can't find any reliable sources online covering the band.
XabqEfdg (
talk) 01:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment I see plenty of non-RS, looks like they last put anything out in 2005, and their albums are still available via eBay. Not my area of expertise, but I suspect this might be saveable if someone can find reviews.
Jclemens (
talk) 06:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep as they do have a staff written AllMusic bio
here which states that their first album was released in 16 countries to considerable acclaim. Haven't done a full search yet,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 22:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete. I dug for sources and did not find any reliable ones. I unfortunately think an Allmusic bio is not enough when not coupled with reviews. According to
this page, there exists one review in HM Magazine (formerly Heaven's Metal Magazine), but that's a bit thin as well. Scene-wise, the lack of coverage is not unexpected either, seeing as thrash metal was long out of favour when this band started releasing.
Geschichte (
talk) 19:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk) 06:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per Gechichte. I also cannot find anything sufficint to demonstrate notability. Fails
WP:NBAND
This article on a USA-based record label, created in 2010, is unreferenced. Per
WP:Before no sigcov found including in searches in both the wikipedia library and standard search engine, except a passing mention in Billboard (
[6]). Subject fails to meet notability guidelines. As there aren't guidelines in place for record labels - I expect
WP:NORG applies. Resonant
Distortion 16:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk) 18:11, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: The newspapers used now in the article for sourcing are all there is for this person; I don't see notability beyond the local level. I can't find any mention of them otherwise.
Oaktree b (
talk) 19:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete The fact she has been seen on multiple movies which has a wikipedia page doesn't qualify her to have a wikipedia page. This is just like the case of
Lucy Grantham (2nd nomination). The subject Mehr Hassan fails
WP:GNG. Her first AFD which was keep was just a two vote of keep which was still saying because she appeared in a movie. No independent reliable source, No award won or being nominated as an actress or dancer. I really don't see anything notable. --
Meligirl5 (
talk) 17:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Does having just one reliable source qualifies a person of having a Wikipedia page?
Hassan started her dancing career as a stage performer in the United States.
How do we believe such statement with no reliable source.?--
Meligirl5 (
talk) 00:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. Meets
WP:NACTOR, which is clearly the applicable guideline.
rspεεr (
talk) 14:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 23:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Soft Keep.
WP:NACTOR appears to hold here for now, although perhaps the articles for the films she starred should be reviewed for their notability. The bottom line is that long as those films are notable, she is, if barely.
Stefen Towers among the rest!Gab •
Gruntwerk 16:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I'm familiar with a "Soft Delete" but can anyone define a "Soft Keep" for me? Do you mean "Weak Keep"? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 22:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Unreferenced article since 2011. Searching for refs is difficult as there is a more successful band called "The Wallflowers", but even after including band members names into the search it seems like they received no coverage. Nothing in the article writeup suggests Wikipedia notability.
InDimensional (
talk) 11:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I’m the original article author. Happy to have article deleted. Band came to an end in 1998 with little notable activity.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 06:31, 20 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk) 08:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Unreferenced article. I couldn't find any significant coverage on the web; it's tough to search for them as their name is shared with a few other groups, but by including band members I found only a very brief Q&A on sfgate.com and an album review on aural-innovations.com, neither of these seem like
WP:SIGCOV and nothing in the article suggests notability per
WP:BANDInDimensional (
talk) 22:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep as they do have a staff written AllMusic bio
here which states that they had a nationwide tour which is one of the criteria at
WP:NMUSIC. Haven't done a full search yet,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 22:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 22:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 00:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I think this is a non-existent term and there are not many related reference materials in the article. Meets the criteria of Delete policy 6. Neologisms, it is recommended to delete.
SU YIQI (
talk) 05:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete. I suggested this to be deleted a few months back, saying sourcing is poor and article is confusing. Folks said 'sources exist in Chinese', without citing any or improving the article. At best I think we should move it to a draftspace or userspace if someone wants to work on this; otherwise, deleting this is no big loss, given how poorly written this is - it can be recreated from scratch if someone cares, with proper sources (
WP:TNT) later. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 09:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. I don't think anything has really changed since the last nomination. There's extensive sourcing at
zh:春哥 which seems to be enough to meet GNG. As I said last time, the article could certainly use work, but it's an okay starting point and doesn't need TNT. —
Mx. Granger (
talk·contribs) 23:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 07:28, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Hey man im josh (
talk) 12:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This particular music genre fails
WP:GNG,
WP:NMUSIC and
WP:SUBNOT. It has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources, and there isn't a single reliable source that discusses the genre in detail. All of the article's sources involve artists self-describing their music as Afro-fusion via press releases and interviews. The page creator gathered tons of random sources that mention the term "Afro fusion" and piece them together to create the article. Note to closing administrator: This discussion needs adequate time and my hope is that enough participants contribute to the discussion. Let me also add that the article contains false information. The page creator claims that the genre was "developed in South Africa" and "universalized by Freshlyground". However,
the source cited to support this info doesn't state any of this. As a matter of fact, the source states that Freshlyground's style of music is unofficially called Afro fusion and that it "contains elements of traditional South African music with blues, jazz and a spoonful of indie rock".
Here are a few sources from the article. I created the table below to show that none of the article's sources discuss the music genre. The table isn't complete but if you go through each source, you will see that none of them discuss the music genre.
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
Comment: Afrofusion is a
fusion genre "Fusion music, also known as crossover music, is a genre that blends various musical styles together to create unique and innovative compositions. It often combines elements of different genres such as jazz, rock, classical, or world music to create a new sound that transcends traditional boundaries. The essence of fusion music lies in its experimental nature and the exploration of new musical horizons." (
[1]) which by definition and explicit demonstration is the style of music associated-acts of afrofusion, illustrate.
A Google books search on "afro fusion" retains over 1000 results. (
[8])
"The band is known for its eclectic sound that combines elements of South African traditional music, jazz, blues, and indie rock. Freshlyground's music often features a mix of languages, including English, Xhosa, Zulu, and French, and their lyrics often address social and political issues such as poverty, inequality, and corruption."
[9] (
Freshlyground) (
African Music Library Org)
"their sound is equally diverse, dipping into
kwaito,
folk, blues and jazz" (Freshlyground)
[10] (
Mail & Guardian, 2006)
"There have always been
rock,
reggae, jazz and Afro-fusion bands in South Africa", "A brief profile of
Laka's Afro fusion band image" - (Gavin Steingo, Kwaito's Promise Music and the Aesthetics of Freedom in South Africa,
JSTOR - ISBN:9780226362687, 022636268X)
"Kenyan afrofusion arrived on the scene soon after the turn of the of the twenty-first century..." - (
Georgina Born , Music and Digital Media A planetary anthropology, ISBN:9781800082434, 1800082436)
Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Africa and
Nigeria. dxneo (
talk) 19:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: So
Versace1608 and
Qaqaamba have an
open discussion at
WP:ANI complaining about content dispute/edit warring on "
Khona" and related articles, use of foul language and breaking the
WP:3RR rule just to mention a few. The discussion hasn't been concluded yet but here you are again on AfD. dxneo (
talk) 19:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: The article lacks clarity regarding the specific stylistic elements or
rhythmic patterns that distinguish Afro-fusion as a distinct genre
[11]. The article conflates afro fusion a term used in describing different genres of music as one specific genre of music
[12][13][14]. For example, artists such as
Burna boy,
BNXN, and
Omah Lay are used within the article and the sources of the article. These artists are mostly
Afrobeats artists
[15][16][17] with the name Afro-Fusion being used to describe their style of music as an offshoot or
subgenre of
afrobeats[18][19]. Also, it is very important to note that the existence of the term afro fusion being used by multiple different sources on google books or jstor is not a good enough example of the existence of this genre especially considering that when these sources are reviewed one by one each of them are talking about different genres of music that often has nothing to do with each other, with some sources using the term afro fusion in referring to the fusion of foods.
Bernadine okoro (
talk) 18:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: Per above, the problem is not that "afro-fusion" as a term doesn't exist, because it obviously does. The problem is that various artists in different places (e.g Nigeria, South Africa) have used the name "Afro-fusion" to refer to /completely different things. This article, however, conflates them as some sort of connected, unified, related movement, which simply isn't the case and sources do not suggest as much. It's quite clear, for example, that what "Burna Boy" calls afro-fusion is simply an extension of
Afrobeats, which is completely different to what, say, Sakaki Mango is calling "afro-fusion". This ultimately stems from the belief from the creator of the article that genre-names cannot be re-used by unrelated sounds. The result of this is a synthesis of various sources to suggest unrelated topics are all related to each-other.
HarrySONofBARRY (
talk) 20:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: I took a short wiki-break. As per Versace1608's stipulations at ANI prior to this AfD, Versace1608's main concerns appeared to be whether the genre originated in South Africa or not and that "Burna Boy coined the term afrofusion" - which has/have been answered/established via sources in the article. As per the purpose of this AfD does the particluar article fail WP:GNG, WP:NMUSIC, WP:SUBNOT and has it been discussed in reliable secondary sources?
HarrySONofBARRY - as per
/info/en/?search=Talk:Afroswing#Third_opinion you agreed that any re-directs for "afrofusion" to
afrobeats should be edited/deleted. Other editors appear to have edited multiple re-directs however it appears there is still a current re-direct from afrofusion to afrobeats,remainder/apparent. The stylistic origins/(influences) have been updated. In addition to previous listed stylistic origins ;
world music,
worldbeat,
crossover music →
traditional African music,
Afropop and
experimental music have been added as per sources , primary as well as secondary and context of the dance genre and musical style. In regards to Afro fusion as a
cuisine, I believe that is a completely different topic and would hypothetically speaking be article: afro fusion (cuisine).
Qaqaamba (
talk) 22:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I have removed the Omah Lay, (now,previous) citation
[20]
I have removed Burna Boy paragraphs/mentions from the article as per taking an in-depth look as well as , as per
Talk:Burna Boy#Removal of Afrofusion discussion, although the artist claims he has pioneered Afro fusion as a
genre, that proves to be false as per the article, in addition as per
afrobeats' stylistic origins, the musical genres the musician has been blending up to date appear to be in fact the genres which indeed , make up afrobeats' (if I am not mistaken) and not afrofusion's true stylistic origins nor influences as per combined sources.
I have removed BXN's, (now previous) citation
[21], although he blends an additional "non-afrobeats stylistic origin" genre
Drill which is illustrative of the afrofusion musical style, in itself - the source stipulated previous contradictory information in regards to "it sees BNXN put his own stamp on Afrofusion – a term coined by Burna Boy to describe his own genreless style." As per afro-fusion article, sources and above we have established that Burna Boy did not coin the term.
@
Versace1608 as per
Talk:Burna Boy#Removal of Afrofusion discussion and HarrySONofBarry's concerns will you still add a section inclusive of a hatnote in the afrobeats article differentiating in regards to afrofusion as an evidential term/ hypernym/idiom and the actual afrofusion dance genre and musical style?
Question: Should afrobeats be added as a regional scene in the afrofusion article i.e. "regional scene: {{hlist| [[afrobeats]]| Nigeria]]?
But then the issue isn't just about removing artists whose style of music have been described with the term Afro fusion the issue is whether Afro fusion exists as a
musical style of its own hereby needing a standalone article. To classify Afro fusion as a musical style of its own it means it must have a
rhythmic pattern of its own because all music has rhythmic pattern even noise has rhythmic patterns.
[22][23] For example, afrobeats has the
Clave (rhythm) as a rhythmic pattern, rock music has
four-on-the-floor pattern while house music has a four-by-four beat pattern with a bass drum kick hitting on every beat from the article afro fusion seems to not have one.
[24][25][26]The article dates the genre as early as the 1970s but it seems that there is already another musical style that has been described as Afro fusion dating to the 1950s
[27]. Also, I find this statement broad
“By definition of a fusion genre and illustration of the afro-fusion musical style by associated-acts it is a genre and musical compositional form which incorporates traditional African music as well as Afropop, additionally spans between and blends various genres in a crossover-like style.”
For one
Afropop is not a specific style of music, most often Afropop is used in describing any genre of music that is popular within the African continent or simply any African music. The afropop article talks about this
[28]
Secondly if this style of music is the blending of any style of music with African traditional music, then that alone makes multiple different fusion styles of music that are within the
continent to be afro fusion. But if that's what this article is about then the mentioning of 1970s South Africa as the cultural origins of this style of music will confuse readers because all fusion genres within the African continent didn't begin in South Africa. Also, there are fusion styles in Africa that predates the 1970s
[29][30].
So basically, the problem is that the article is not specific on what Afro fusion is as regards to it being a specific musical standalone style.The article, at its most effective, appears to gather every and any references to afrofusion in music without providing a clear definition of the genre itself.
Bernadine okoro (
talk) 00:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A musical style describes techniques and methodologies definied as or identified by composers of music and/or theorist of music. .
"but it seems that there is already another musical style that has been described as Afro fusion dating to the 1950s" - if I am not mistaken and this is the source and specific sentence you are referring to
[31] " ...Ace Afrofusion pioneers one cannot forget to mention the ace Ghanian drummer
Kofi Ghanaba (years active 1950s to 2008) whose late 1950s and early 1960s Afro-jazz style influenced
Tony Allen (years active 1960s/1970s to 2020) and predated the afro-fusion music of
Fela Kuti (years active 1960s to 1990s) by a decade" published by John Collins, in 2015 ( after the release of afrofusion and soca song "
Waka Waka (This Time for Africa) (2010), which accelerated the usage of the term to describe both former historical as well as present day illustrations of fusing African music with Western music. It appears the author used it as an
adjective, additionally the author is referring to Afro-jazz (which appears to be a fusion of African music and jazz) which numerous African countries , claim or label and appear to have "pioneers" of e.g.
Hugh Masekela ( years active 1950s to 2018) "Masekela began to hone his, now signature, Afro-Jazz sound in the late 1950s during a period of intense creative collaboration"
[32] or
Manu Dibango ( years active 1968 to 2020). Google infobox for "Afro-jazz" -
[33]. Furthermore
African Jazz Pioneers (also Afro-jazz ) (Years active:1950s -present) stipulates the origin as "still", Johannesburg,
South Africa. African Jazz pioneers was also inclusive of
Dudu Pukwana a member of
Assagai an
afrorock band. Afrorock blends elements of rock music with African influences which would hypethically speaking , if not by sources also be described as or make useage of the term "an afrofusion band/ genre". The fact that the term was coined by South African/(s) Sylvia Glasser and Vincent Mantsoe has already been confirmed and established via numerous reliable primary and secondary sources years prior to the publishing of the specific book and source you are referencing
[34].
Marabi , which combines numerous musical styles including
jazz emerged and evolved from the 1890s to 1920s and beyond in, South Africa.
Afrofusion as a musical style and clear evidential
fusion genre as per stylistic origins/ influences such as traditional African music or
afropop genres and the technique, the rhythmic pattern of the song(s) would be and depend on which genre(s) are used at that specific time or point (from the perspective of a fusion genre that would mean , 100s if not 1000s of evidential
rhythms ot as you've linked to display "rhythmic patterns" i.e.
Freshlyground's musical compositions for instance often blended
kwaito with
indie-rock. A song released in this musical style's rhythmic patterns would then be
four on the floor ,
strumming pattern,
ride cymbal and
clave., if not more.
The fact is that there is a plethora of both reliable primary and secondary sources confirming the musical style's definite, existence additionally as a distinct dance and musical style, (particulary, afrofusion).
I believe anything else, if necessary and of factual notable importance or significance could/ would be edited accordingly. The notion for this AfD is that "This particular music genre fails
WP:GNG,
WP:NMUSIC and
WP:SUBNOT. It has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources, and there isn't a single reliable source that discusses the genre in detail."
As per reliable primary and secondary sources, afrofusion as both a dance and musical style emerged during the
apartheid era, a period marked by limited access to well-recorded and easily shareable information.
"Also, there are fusion styles in Africa that predates the 1970s
[22][23]". It is simply indicative of
precursors possibly even for
afrobeat or afrobeats.
The emergence of a musical genre involves a specific time period, reflecting the state of the world, country, or city at that time, along with distinct stylistic origins, influences, and locations. For instance,
Tsapiky fused South African pop with native
Malagasy traditions in the 1970s, indicative of the musical landscape and cultural influences of that era. While afrofusion originated in the 1970s to 1980s, it remains relevant, unlike Tsapiky, which has waned in popularity.
Musical instruments,
compositional techniques, and cultural influences evolve over time, shaping fusion genres differently across various periods and regions in African music history before the 1970s, various African fusion genres existed, each characterized by distinct time periods, stylistic origins, influences, locations, and cultural contexts within the diverse musical landscape of the continent.
Worldbeat, a genre blending
pop or rock with world music, differs from afro-fusion, which originated in the 1970s in South Africa, blending various specifically
African pop genres. Worldbeat emerged in the mid-1980s in the UK and US, reflecting integrated cultural influences. Afrofusion, being a progressive and living genre opposed to "dead genre" which would've meant did not regain or maintain mainstream popularity, incorporates elements from worldbeat and other styles, suggesting a stylistic connection. Artists like
Miriam Makeba[35], prominent in afrofusion's early years, were influential figures in
world music/ worldbeat as well. Although it diverges from the main topic, it seems possible that worldbeat could perhaps be considered a subgenre or derivative form of afrofusion, given the timeline and historical context.
As an umbrella term, afro-fusion does not negate the existence of precursors, it remains distinct from them. Its origins are firmly established in the 1970s to 1980s, supported by abundant reliable primary and secondary sources.
Bernadine okoro's claim that "To classify Afro fusion as a musical style of its own it means it must have a
rhythmic pattern of its own" seems like an unreasonable standard.
Heavy metal music and
Punk rock are different styles but share the same basic rhythmic pattern. I know of at least one black metal song in 3/4 time, but that doesn't mean that it's in the same musical style as
The Blue Danube. There are other elements that define a musical style. --
Slashme (
talk) 09:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Right, there are other elements that define musical styles. The reason why I picked rhythmic patterns is because they’re a little bit more of an easier signifier of a musical style. However, I feel I didn't properly convey what i meant, i was trying to get to the very fact that every music has a rhythmic pattern the Afro-fusion article doesn't list any much signifier. So basically I'm trying to understand the style of music this genre of Afro-fusion is because multiple different musical styles use the term Afro-fusion to define their style of music like in the case of
Burna boy using Afro-fusion to describe his unique style of afrobeats or
Magixx who have also been described as an afro-fusion artist i.e.
Afrobeats artist same with
Maleek Berry[36][37][38][39][40][41]. The article is not clear for example it uses a source of the 2019 Pearl Rhythm Festival which was hosted in Uganda there aren't any sources that could back up the very fact as to regards whether the Afro-fusion mentioned in the source is the same as the one from South Africa
[42]. In all honesty, the article seems to amalgamate online articles or books that mention Afro-fusion into one single Wikipedia article, especially in the history section. And again this is faulty because there are multiple different styles of music that the term Afro-fusion has been used in describing
[43]. It is not one style of music stemming from South Africa and if it is, then the article needs to be a little bit more descriptive about that or leave a note at the top that conveys to readers that the afro fusion musical style practiced in uganda or nigeria is not the same as this south african one.
Bernadine okoro (
talk) 20:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Emphasizing on stipulating rhythmic patterns seems irrelevant additionally it is inherent that any piece of music, be it a song or album, inherently contains
rhythm. The mere act of afrofusion musical style assosciated-acts, composing and publishing music inherently involves incorporating rhythm. Without rhythm a song or album would not be possible or realistically exist, which indicates you are indirectly insisting on the non-existence of afrofusion as a musical style/ afrofusion published bodies of work.
[44][45][46]
Afrofusion, as per reiterated numerous times, is a
fusion genre,musical style. A musical style encompasses a range of techniques and methodologies defined or identified by composers and music theorists, which in this case is afrofusion, a fusion genre, musical style. This fusion genre incorporates elements from multiple genres in a predominantly
experimental[47][48] and
crossover[49][50][51][52] manner , resulting in a diverse array of rhythms evident in published works . e.g. afrofusion trio,
Tananas' music fused jazz, ragtime, township jive, Mozambican salsa, and Spanish music., therefore the rhythmic patterns would be
four on the floor, 2/4, 3/2, 2/3 and
strumming pattern.
[53]
If my memory serves me correctly were you not the editor that previously linked
Freshlyground and genre "afrofusion" to
afrobeats in the bands music infobox although numerous sources clearly stipulate(s)/ed the bands genres being somewhat hyperly distinct from that of afrobeats as well as afrobeats being explicitly titled "afrobeats" and not afrofusion?
Afrofusion's title is explicitly, "Afrofusion" not e.g. Brazilian afrofusion or Chinese afrofusion, thus if a musician releases a body of work, as explicitly afrofusion and more importantly to highlight - not as a term to describe another fusion genre or musical style- it is in all probablity afrofusion.
Georgina Born described afrofusion as "Kenyan" afrofusion in like 3 sentences in her book and throughout the rest of the book, over 5 other pages, if not more, it is explicity and simply, "afrofusion"
[54]. Another book , "Kenya is home to a diverse range of music styles, ranging from imported popular music, afro-fusion and benga music to traditional folk songs."
[55]. Additionally, there is already a paragraph in the article that clearly stipulates "regional scenes" and if I am not mistaken as well as "music scenes."
As per Magixx's paragraph in the article and source "
"Get to know Magixx, Nigeria's next big afro-fusion star" ,the musician fused
trap, which is not a stylistic origin of
afrobeats - (
afrobeat,
Igbo highlife,
dancehall,
fuji,
hiplife,
highlifekpanlogo ,
hip hop,
jùjú,
R&B,
soca,
house), the source does not make any mention of afrobeats whatsoever. "Magixx's debut EP blends
Afropop (literally 100s, if not more of African popular music genres), trap and dancehall production", In 2019, after struggling to pay for studio sessions in uni, Magixx released ‘
Problem’, a succinct amalgamation of Afropop and Afro R&B sounds he was experimenting with at that time".
In the case of
Maleek Berry's mention in the paragraph in the afrofusion article as well as , as per sources
[49][50]. It is not surprising nor weird that it may be mistaken as
afrobeats given the Afro-Fusion redirect to Afrobeats etc., article. Maleek Berry featured in American rapper,
GoldLink's, Diaspora album. Maleek Berry and
Bibi Bourelly featured on the song, "Zulu Screams" in constrast to the song's title, "Zulu Screams" included Bibi Bourelly singing in
Lingala[51]. Additionally, one of the other characteristics that make up afrofusion is and/or
multilingualism, moreover not solely African languages. Which is not a characteristic of afrobeats
[52][53][54][55].
The notes you are proposing appear to be irrelevant, misleading and non-constructive especially as this is an AfD nor is this a
WP:DISPUTE. The most important notes/hatnotes would be one in the afrobeats article stipulating that Burna Boy is not the pioneer of afrofusion and is in fact making afrobeats as per yourself, Versace1608 and HarrySONofBarry stipulations as well as the usage of it as a term/hypernym.
The reason why I asked for the rhythmic patterns goes back to what I have been saying in my replies which is that there are different styles of music that the term afrofusion has been used in describing. Now in order to differentiate which musical style you maybe referring to it all partly boils down to how each musical style is arranged in i.e. characteristics that define this style of music from other musical styles that has been referred to as afro-fusion. Rhythmic patterns are much easier to identify hence why I asked and by rhythmic patterns I mean the beat pattern that this style of music often follows and not occasionally follows
[56]. From what you are saying it seems as though you are insinuating that this style of music follows all available rhythmic patterns which can be confusing because I don't think there is a genre that encompasses all rhythmic patterns just because it’s a fusion genre. This further broadens this style of music making it harder to identify. Although various genres of music allow for the fusion of different rhythmic patterns, they all have unique or specific patterns they all follow It is important to note that this doesn’t mean it can’t share a specific pattern with other genres of music like in the case of
rock music and
EdM[57]
As regards to
Magixx, that specific source might not make any mention of Afrobeats but other articles refer to his music as Afrobeats in fact he even said he is”…looking to leave an unforgettable imprint on Afrobeats” now if his style of Afro-fusion was the south African version he would have made that clear because it doesn’t seem like the song problem has anything to do with Zulu harmony
[58][59][60] Herein lies the problem with this article if afropop and African rhythm and blues are what makes the songs released by Magixx a style of afro-fusion that you are describing what stops any fusion style from Africa from being classified as afro-fusion? For example, although
highlife music is part of the stylistic origins of afrobeats a simple fusion of highlife and amapiano, does not make a song afrobeats but by your description with a few sources one can make an argument that the simple fusion of these styles of music can be classified as afro-fusion since it incorporates traditional African music and other genres of music.
Maleek Berry’s style of music has been referred to as afrobeats one article classifying him as afro fusionist doesn’t make him an artist that does South African afro fusion
[61][62][63].
Also from the
afrobeats article, the genre is shared between Ghana and Nigeria, and Afrobeats artists from other countries apart from these two countries sing in their native languages as a result technically making
multilingualism a part of Afrobeats.
[64][65][66] What am saying is that if you can describe a little bit more of the characteristics of this specific style of music it can help readers to differentiate what afro fusion is and what it is not when listening to it. Also, the notes/hatnotes should be in both the
Afrobeats article and in this one too. And, I am not the editor that previously linked Freshly ground “afro-fusion" to afrobeats in the band’s music infobox. I do not know what this is about, you are going to have to figure out which editor this is as it has nothing to do with me.
Bernadine okoro (
talk) 02:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Most music's base
rhythm is
four on the floor, however all distinct from one another because of stylistic/cultural origins, typical instruments and other elements (
rock,
blues,
house etc.)
There are not "different terms" of music Afro-fusion was used to describe. There's afrofusion as a
crossover,
experimentalfusion genre,musical style[67][68][69][70], specifically yourself and HarrySONofBarry adding(ed) "afrofusion" as "other name", in the body,lede and creating(ed) redirects for "Afro-Fusion/Afrofusion" to
afrobeats which obviously misleads, misinforms readers and is damaging to the purpose of the encyclopedia, and it being used as a term/hypernym
ISBN9780819575401.
You appear to be insinuating that because an artist is Nigerian or not South African, it is impossible for them to publish afro-fusion bodies of work. Additionally, it is not odd for a musician to dabble in different/various musical styles or genres and regional scenes/ music scenes are stipulated in paragraphs. Both implied points are illogical and not how music or art for that matter works, at all.
Repeatedly emphasized, the distinctiveness of a musical style stems from its stylistic origins, cultural roots (both geographical and literal), the prevailing global context and the circumstances surrounding its emergence, including the how and why behind its development. Most if not, all forms of music and art have
precursors.
Highlife emerged in the 19th century, its stylistic origins are ; (
Palm-wine music,
Akan music, Akan folklore,
African music) and incorporated jazz in the 1920s.
Marabi's roots are a fusion of European
hymnology and
spirituals during the late 19th to early 20th centuries as it developed from Makwaya, incorporating elements of jazz, ragtime, Pedi and Tswana bass traditions, alongside adaptations of Xhosa folk melodies into keyboard arrangements etc. (Both highlife and marabi evolved and emerged incorporating jazz 'round about the same time, although possible , South Africa "first" and then Ghana "followed"-
[71]). I am not certain why you're stipulating notes or hatnotes should be made for possible precursors,
hip hop does not need to be differientated from
talking blues or
rhythm and blues for numerous, obvious reasons.
Multilingualism is not included in the afrobeats article's characteristics. Afrofusion incorporated multilingualism as far back as the 80s
[72],
[73][74] , if not prior to, this would also be more evident or prominent, since South Africa is not solely close-national/descent homogenous (
ethnic groups in South Africa) like that of for instance China or Nigeria.
Afrikaans , an official language of South Africa , in itself emerged during the
Dutch Cape Colony from
Dutch dialects. Many Afrofusion bands are multi-cultural/national/racial/ethnic, contributing to the "fusion" and multilingual aspect by incorporating diverse cultural influences
[75][76][77] , "Tananas, a multiracial five-piece group from Cape Town, reflected that city's mixed heritage" - Billboard ,18 Feb 1995, p. 43
Even after excluding musicians from the article who might have mistakenly been labeled as afro-fusion due to the reasons stated earlier etc., I find it puzzling, why you continue to bring up and focus on afrobeats, making comparisons and fixating on it as a central topic.The point of this AfD was/is "that music genre fails
WP:GNG,
WP:NMUSIC and
WP:SUBNOT. It has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources, and there isn't a single reliable source that discusses the genre in detail."
To be clear, I agreed to a compromise solution so we could move forward with our conversation and ultimately deduced that a redirect is not as important as the other issues we were discussing.
As I raised there and on the Afrobeats talk page, I ultimately disagreed with your changes and wished to discuss it at a later date.
HarrySONofBARRY (
talk) 15:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A redirect plays a crucial role in guiding readers to related and, most importantly, accurate articles.
As per numerous discussions elsewhere, I repeatedly stipulated that musical genre/styles cannot explicity share the exact name and that differentiations are always/have to be made, e.g.
Hip hop and
Hipco both rap genres, however distinct from one another in regards to predominant location of origin, culture as well as stylistic origins/influences. Both yourself and Bernadine Okoro appear to insistently oppose this methodology and logic. Furthermore, hypothetically speaking introducing
Hip Hop vs. explicitly titled
Hip Hop (actually, Liberian Hip Hop/rap) into the encyclopedia is not only misleading as well as confusing to readers however damaging to the encyclopedia. Versace 1608, indirectly stipulated this amongst viewpoints in discussion
Talk:Burna Boy#Removal of Afrofusion, in regards to the fact that afrofusion shouldn't be linked in Burna Boy's article and once more as per above, a hatnote needed to be included in the afrobeats article.
It has been consistently established through numerous discussions that
Afrofusion (1970s - 1980s/2000s) does not explicitly ≠
Afrobeats (2000s/2010s), as well as obvious as per times of emergence and stipulated stylistic origins/influences. To conclude and addressing you as the most probable editor to possibly do this since you created the afrobeats article this aspect, the "undeletable/ ongoing" re-direct should be be deleted. Additionally, one cannot explicitly title afrobeats as afrofusion and even as other name in the infobox parameter, too would be confusing/misleading to readers. The hatnote appears to be the best solution.
Neutral:The first impression I had about this article was it will be notable but on looking at the sources I began to disagree with myself. I found sources that speak about the struggles of some supposedly "Afrofusion artists",
top artists claiming their musical genre was Afrofusion (even though critics address them as Afrobeats), and a few mentions of this supposed musical genre. What I didn't see were sources dedicated to analyzing the musical genre which I believe is fundamental to establishing it as one. If it is not deleted, it should probably be listed as a derivative of
Afrobeats.
HandsomeBoy (
talk) 15:10, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Based on the article, reliable primary and secondary sources, and the preceding discussion, to reiterate, it's apparent that while some artists may use "afrofusion" as a hypernym or term, the musical style itself predates the emergence of afrobeats in the 2000s to 2010s. It experienced a period of relative obscurity during apartheid but regained mainstream popularity in the 2000s. Categorizing afrofusion solely as a derivative of afrobeats would be illogical and misleading to readers, given its established existence prior to the rise of afrobeats.
Qaqaamba (
talk) 16:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I have watched videos of Fela telling international journalists that his brand of music is Afrobeats, and he died in the 90s. Fela is also regarded as the initiator of Afrobeats, so you are very wrong to say Afrobeats started in the 2000s or 2010s. Perhaps, you should allow others participate freely in the AFD. No need reacting to all the votes with incorrect info.
HandsomeBoy (
talk) 00:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
HandsomeBoy, please provide sources. dxneo (
talk) 00:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I should provide sources for what exactly?? Someone countered some aspects of my comment with incorrect information WITHOUT SOURCES, and you are fine with that. But you aren't fine with my isolated points. Well for the sake of others, please read
Fela Kuti you will see many sources there that talks about his connection with Afrobeats and the time he died. If you need something more concrete, please read his
Britanica page that calls him "Pioneer of Afrobeats". Please leave me alone. No one is obligated to use my !vote in closing the discussion.
HandsomeBoy (
talk) 18:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
HandsomeBoy, relax I didn't mean to step on your toe, your comment caught my eye and I thought if you provided sources to back your claims then this would be over. Another thing, we are discussing "Afro fusion" not
afrobeats, so
Fela Kuti is relevant how? dxneo (
talk) 20:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Dxneo, I believe you didn't read his comments. Handsomeboy meant that most of the supposedly afro fusion artists are always derivative of the main genre Afrobeats, which is most to everyone. Infact, their music is afro beats and there is neither a reason why there should be some wrong claim of those artists' music being called afro fusion. We're here to build an Encyclopedia and it must be "just" as neutral as possible. — Safari ScribeEdits!Talk! 06:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Africa and
Kenya. dxneo (
talk) 21:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: To hear from more independent editors please Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
StarMississippi 00:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: since this AfD was raised, the sourcing has greatly improved. For example, Georgina Born's book, (Born, Georgina (2022). Music and Digital Media A planetary anthropology.
UCL Press (published 12 September 2022). p. 67.
ISBN9781800082434.), which discusses the genre and its history in good detail, and a lot of newspaper and magazine articles which show that the term is used consistently and widely. --
Slashme (
talk) 09:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Slashme: Can you please provide a link to page 67? I believe you have access to this book since you've read page 67. I am trying to read the page you claimed discusses the genre in "good detail". I can't access it on my end without paying a fee.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 22:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the link. I disagree with your claim that the book discusses the genre in good detail. As a matter of fact, the genre isn't discussed at all. The four paragraphs that make up the section "Developing Afro fusion" is primarily about GidiGidi MajiMaji and Eric Wainanina's respective albums (Ismarwa and Sawa Sawa). The author also stated that those two acts are significant figures in Kenya's Afro fusion scene.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 17:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I disagree with your statement that "the genre isn't discussed at all". It talks about the institutional sponsors of Afro Fusion, the way that it's rooted in local culture, and the annual music festivals surrounding the genre. Saying that it's primarily about those two albums seems to me to be a strange mischaracterisation of the content. In fact, in the opening paragraph, the author says "Fostered by Nairobi's NGO sector and cosmopolitan middle class, and linked to the global 'world music' circuit, Kenyan Afro-fusion is marked by an aesthetic emphasis on live instrumentation over digitally programmed accompaniments, and the attempt to 'fuse' African aesthetics with Western popular music. It has thrived, as I will describe, on patronage from nongovernmental cultural institutions that find value in its underlying aim of cultivating a more modern 'Kenyan' sound." She then goes on to talk about these aspects in detail. This goes way beyond a simple mention of the topic, and absolutely supports the notability claim. Also, that section isn't the only part of the book that mentions the topic. It's referred to over and over again in discussions of the work of other artists. --
Slashme (
talk) 13:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Well, we can both agree to disagree. The section titled "Developing Afro fusion" does not discuss Afro fusion. It talks about GidiGidi MajiMaji and Eric Wainanina's respective albums (Ismarwa and Sawa Sawa) and highlighted both artists for being significant figures in Kenya's Afro fusion scene. I challenge anyone here to click on the link provided by Slashme and see for yourself.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 14:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Versace1608, please see the last two votes from
ANairobian and myself on why this shouldn't have even made it to AfD. dxneo (
talk) 14:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Your opinion is your opinion and isn't superior to mines. I've read all of the keep votes in this AFD and they aren't convincing in my opinion. I will not lose sleep if the article is kept or deleted. I have participated in tons of AFD in the past that did not end up the way I wanted it to end.
Versace1608Wanna Talk? 15:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ToadetteEdit! 16:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: This is an article about music. However, looking at the discussion per se, it looks like the normal "Nigeria vs Ghana", ..vs South Africa", etc. On a note, Afro fusion does exist but for the article, it has so many claims even the ones removed and it alleges or neither shows it was written from a personal point of view (just like fans of Cristiano Ronaldo and fans of Lionel Messi will do to both article). There is only one way out: deletion to neutrality and a fundamental rewrite which should pass AFC and being to NPP. Safari ScribeEdits!Talk! 17:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep per Slashme. There is sufficient coverage in
WP:RS as per the sources cited by other editors, and the article meets our
notability guidelines. However, I would suggest renaming to
Afro fusion (music) to differentiate it from
Afro fusion (cuisine) when created, as an editor noted above.
Tamsier (
talk) 18:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Tamsier, renaming will be discussed separately after this AfD is closed and if/when the cuisine is created. dxneo (
talk) 19:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Tamsier, even if this should be closed as keep, it remains the primary topic and I can't find much research of the "cuisine". Until then, let's focus on AFD. — Safari ScribeEdits!Talk! 06:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Per
Slashme, why should it be deleted just so it can be recreated?
SafariScribe? If it isn't neutral then {{
clean up}} and {{
re-write}} is required. dxneo (
talk) 10:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: While this article may still have potential for improvement, it is sufficiently referenced in
WP:RS to meet
WP:GNG. It also seems to be generally written in a
WP:NPOV. Hence, the discussion should be about how to improve it, rather than whether to keep it.
ANairobian (
talk) 12:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
No notability evident in the article per
WP:BAND, mainly just states that they're straight edge and played some concerts. Additionally, I can't find any real coverage on them on the web.
InDimensional (
talk) 09:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. I don't know how the nom looked for sources, but they managed to miss and ignore the source cited in the article, from
Onet.pl, which meets SIGCOV and is reliable. So that's one - and it calls this band "legendary". Pl wiki lists two more sources, from a notable NGO, which calls one of its albums "cult" (
[78]). The band is mentioned in academic works, including in English, ex
[79] "most of the best Polish punk bands such as Apatia...". Other Polish sources:
[80] (onet again),
[81] (
Gazeta Wyborcza - Polish main newspaper of record),
[82] (
Życie Warszawy) I am not going to list more sources, but plenty exist even in English. The nominator deserves a
WP:TROUT for terrible execution of
WP:BEFORE, since finding sources does not even require speaking Polish (not that these days, with solid machine translation built into most browsers, this should be much of an excuse). PS. That said, the claim about them being mentioned in PWN I could not verify. The article needs improvement, here and on pl wiki, but this is no reason to nuke it. Sources I found here should be enough for anyone who cares to improve this article to get it to DYK level... maybe even I'll do it one day if I find the time. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 02:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 11:22, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗plicit 11:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep due to the multiple reliable sources coverage identified in this discussion by Piotrus that together show a pass of
WP:GNG so that deletion is unnecessary in my view,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 19:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep per above, preferably with at least pasting the mentioned sources into the article.
Geschichte (
talk) 15:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Tagged as unreferenced since 2009 but was actually unreferenced since 2006. No good hits on GNews and GBooks. GNews archives only turned out two ads related to it.
Alternatively,Redirect to
List of programs broadcast by ABS-CBN. --
Lenticel(
talk) 02:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 03:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 01:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete.
✗plicit 00:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This article has no sources and no indication of notability. It was nominated for deletion nearly 20 years ago and has not been improved since it was created in 2005. The subject does not meet any of the guidelines listed in
WP:NMUSIC nor
WP:NBIO.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Aneirinn (
talk •
contribs) 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete - It is important to note that the
WP:NMUSICIAN requirements have gotten much tougher since 2006, when this article survived an AfD discussion pretty much because the gentleman was visible on the Internet. Meanwhile, the current version of the article could possibly be speedy deleted under
WP:A7 because it makes no attempt to say how/if he is notable. At any rate, the gentleman is a perennial sideman and local performer who is surely good at what he does, but he has not received the in-depth media coverage that is necessary here, and is only visible in typical streaming and promotional services. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (
TALK|
CONTRIBS) 14:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Byron Berline: I searched but could not find in-depth coverage about Moore. It's not an easy search because of his name and he's played at many bluegrass festivals so a lot hot hits to wade through but I did add a couple sources at least for verification. He was in Berline's band California which won International Bluegrass Music Association Instrumental Group of the Year three years in a row and Moore is mentioned in article. He also taught mandolin to
Nickel Creek's
Chris Thile and
Sean Watkins which might qualify for
WP:NMUSICOTHER #3 or #5 but I think that's a weak claim.
S0091 (
talk) 16:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per my comments below.
S0091 (
talk) 18:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Shadow311 (
talk) 18:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Shadow311 (
talk) 19:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment - I voted to delete above, but if this keeps getting relisted with no further progress then we will probably end up with a pointless "no consensus". Therefore I would support the Redirect suggestion above if nobody else votes. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (
TALK|
CONTRIBS) 12:34, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete.
S0091 has made a valiant effort but I don't think this is a good redirect. If you searched for John Moore and were redirected to this article, I think you'd feel more confused than informed. (Sorry, Doomsdayer520, but I think even "no consensus" would be better than this confusing redirect.) --
asilvering (
talk) 03:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
My first choice is still Delete and will I stick with it now that I have some support. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (
TALK|
CONTRIBS) 16:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
No
backsies @
Doomsdayer520. :) Actually, I agree with @
Asilvering it's not a great redirect as there is no content to preserve in the event sources become available and a weak target so flipping my vote to delete.
S0091 (
talk) 18:02, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Fails
WP:NMUSIC. Just because we have several articles about music produced by him does not make him notable, I find that he is not notable as a musician or a producer.
Nagol0929 (
talk) 15:59, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: I haven't looked closely yet as to whether his article deserves to stay, but it seems to me a redirect to
Souls of Mischief might be a better option than outright deletion... yes, I know he is part of
Hieroglyphics (group) as well and therefore
WP:XY may be considered here, but Hieroglyphics is all of Souls of Michief plus four other people, so he's still a part of Hieroglyphics as a member of Souls of Mischief.
Richard3120 (
talk) 16:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: He clearly passes
WP:NMUSIC#C6 if he's part of two notable production groups. That doesn't mean we have to have a standalone article on him, just noting a discrepancy in the nom statement.
Mach61 20:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or merge to
Souls of Mischief as he does have some individual reliable sources coverage such as an AllMusic staff bio
here and a review of one of his 3 solo albums
here,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 21:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete Other than the 2 sources provided by above editor, there are not enough reliable coverage and 2 of the sources are interviews.
Bradelykooper (
talk) 08:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Shadow311 (
talk) 16:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect. None of the sources appear to be reliable, but a search of his name would go to the band's article, a compromise that we do sometimes.
Bearian (
talk) 14:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Shadow311 (
talk) 18:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Bearian: AllMusic is a reliable source as per [
[83]] and the bio and album review are not interviews as someone else claimed,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 22:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Atlantic306: the only problem is that AllMusic isn’t being used as a reference and all 3 of the references are interviews. Of those only 1 is about A-Plus.
Nagol0929 (
talk) 03:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Have added the AllMusic sources as references,
Atlantic306 (
talk) 14:00, 19 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep There's a ton of sourcing (yes, from reliable sources) available on this guy in Google News and Books searches, over a period of decades. It's true that most of them are brief mentions, but with all of the info available, surely the article could be built out and sourced better than it is now. I had to get a little creative in looking for sources since "A plus" is such a generic term, but combining his name with "Hieroglyphics" or "Souls of Mischief" yields many good results.
Fred Zepelin (
talk) 19:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Final relist. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Daniel (
talk) 05:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply