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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Lyncs ( talk) at 17:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Suspension of site ban: User:Justanother / User:Justallofthem
Your indefinite site ban is suspended subject to your unconditional acceptance of and compliance with the following restrictions:
Single account limitation
You may edit from one account only - currently Lyncs (talk · contribs) - with no exceptions for whatever reason. You may rename that account provided (i) you immediately notify the committee of the rename; (ii) the redirects from the prior account name remain in place; and (iii) you display a link to the previous account name on your user page.
Interaction ban Cirt
i) You may neither communicate with nor comment upon or make reference to either directly or indirectly to User:Cirt or their contributions on any page in the English Wikipedia. You may not edit Cirt's talk or user pages though you may, within reason, comment within other pages providing your comments do not relate directly or indirectly to Cirt or their edits. The sole exception to the interaction ban is that you may respond civilly on matters explicitly pertaining to you raised by Cirt or any other editor in any dispute resolution or enforcement context.
ii) Should you violate the letter or spirit of the restrictions above, you may be blocked without prior warning via the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard: on the first occasion for up to one week; on the second occasion for up to one month; and on the third occasion for up to three months. Appeal of any blocks is to the Arbitration Committee.
Topic banned from Scientology
You are indefinitely topic-banned from Scientology on the standard terms outlined here.
For the Arbitration Committee, Roger talk 13:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I was conditionally reinstated well over one year ago with the comment at the time that I could ask to have the restrictions lifted following some period of good behavior. I believe that statement was in an email from an arbitrator and can try to find it if needed.
It is now well over one year and I think that I have evidenced my good behavior and good intentions. I do not edit all that much but might edit more in the future. I would prefer to 1) have access to a subject, Scientology, that I am extremely conversant with and 2) not have any live mines that I might inadvertently step onto vis-a-vis interaction bans or the like.
It is not my intention to interact with Cirt and it is currently not my intention to edit Scientology articles but I do not think there is any need to bar me from either at this point. If I do edit in Scientology (which could happen) or interact with Cirt (which is unlikely), I would still be bound by the rules and norms of Wikipedia with the added factor that I will be subject to certain scrutiny so I think it is not inappropiate to grant this request. Thank you.
1. Response to Newyorkbrad: Lifting the one account restriction is the least of my concerns and if that is a deciding factor or a factor of concern then I have no problem continuing editing solely from this account. -- Lyncs ( talk) 12:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
2. Response to AGK: I could make argument on the merits of the original sanctions and possible injustices but I am not interesting in rehashing that nor, I imagine, is the committee. The fact that I have been back for well over one year and have not had any problems is indicative of the fact that I am not into causing problems. That is an important point. Troublemakers cause trouble. They do not stop because they are now excluded from one area or another. They make trouble where they are. That is not what I am about.
On second thought, I will say one thing of a general nature related to my sanctions. When I started editing here, I edited the Scientology articles as that was something I had been involved with for many years. If you are familiar with that territory prior to the arbitration, the Scientology articles were a battleground of anti-Scientology zealots warring with Scientology zealots with the antis well in control of the situation. But it was noisy nonetheless. I arrived as a non-zealot Scientologist just trying to add some balance and the benefit of my knowledge. While there were and are plenty of non-zealot folks that do not think highly of Scientology, few seemed to accept that there could be a Scientologist that was a not a zealot. To most, especially the antis, all Scientologists were programmed, brainwashed, and agents of the evil OSA. But that is how zealots see things. I made many thousands of edits. My edits were never much of an issue. What was the issue was that I screamed pretty loudly when getting stuck with pins. I think that the project is wiser now on the subject of Scientology. I hope it is wiser on the subject of wiki-bullying in general.
I could discretely canvass my wiki-friends and ask them to speak for me but I am not going to do that. They are, of course, welcome to speak on my behalf if they care to; I am just not going around asking anyone to do so.
I think the fact that no-one feels strongly enough about my request to come over here and object says something also. I think the fact that it is so quiet here speaks for my request, not against it.
In other words, I present the case that my request is almost a non-issue and I am simply looking for the sanctions to be lifted as "time served" with a warning to watch my step in the future or as appropriate. -- Lyncs ( talk) 00:55, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
3. Response to Roger Davies: All due respect, but I am not sure what more persuasive argument I can make regarding the two and third issues.
I think the fact that three years have elapsed since the end of the Scientology case and I have had next to zero interaction with Cirt and exhibited zero inclination to harass him in any manner should, IMO, be all the argument I need make. What more can I say? I have already stated that "it is not my intention to interact with Cirt". It is not my intention to interact with Cirt and certainly not my intention to cause him grief. I just do not feel that, based on my evidenced lack of intention to harass him, I need have concern about violating a sanction were our paths to cross in some innocuous fashion. Let me put it a bit more strongly; it is my intention to avoid crossing paths with Cirt where possible and to keep things civil if circumstance puts us on the same page.
Regarding the one account restriction, as I state above, that one I can live with but, again based on good behavior, I also would be fine with having it lifted and simply being reinstated in full. -- Lyncs ( talk) 16:10, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
4. Response to "Statement by Cirt": I think it is appropriate to respond to Cirt's points seeing as he posted them as arguments against my request. If the committee feels this is not appropriate then this edit can be undone. I do not think that his arguments against my request are compelling as outlined below:
Thank you. -- Lyncs ( talk) 23:47, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I took a quick look at Lyncs' 100 most recent article space edits. The edits seem to be fine, but they go back quite far (Aug 2011) and aren't incredibly substantial so there isn't a lot of history to examine. NW ( Talk) 03:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I've been informed by Arbitration Clerk AlexandrDmitri that I may respond to this request, diff.
I have to strongly oppose this request by Lyncs ( talk · contribs), for several reasons.
Thank you for your time, — Cirt ( talk) 14:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I count as a friend of Lyncs' (Justanother), which should be kept in mind when reading the following. But I guess not many people remember this stuff, so after some hesitation I decided to weigh in all the same.
Lyncs doesn't edit much, no. It's chilling to be under restrictions that express so much distrust in one's good will. His continued interest in Wikipedia is evidenced by his remaining a gnomish editor throughout this long period. To me it seems reasonable to believe him when he states that he doesn't harbour any intentions to interact with Cirt or — at present — to edit Scientology articles. I'd be really, really surprised if he even wanted to have anything to do with Cirt. This is not the place to criticise Cirt, but since the 2011 ArbCom desysopped him, the long-time campaign of his protector (who has left Wikipedia, so there's no reason to name her here) to discredit Justanother as an evil machiavellian harasser of the paragon Cirt has perhaps lost some credibility. This ANI thread from 2008, an attempt to get Justanother community banned, is a particularly egregious example. I'm happy to note that the community ban process has been cleaned up some since then. (My criticism of how it worked on this occasion is here, right at the end, in case you can't face reading the whole. It's a very colourful thread, though, especially the.. uh.. different culture evinced in the input from the two Wikinews editors.)
If Lyncs should return to Scientology on a large scale, and/or in a questionable manner, it would surely be easy to reinstate the restrictions. I suggest all the restrictions be removed (unless everybody including Lyncs is happy with the restriction to one account), perhaps with phrasing that provides for quick and simple reinstatement of them, if required. Bishonen | talk 15:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC).
With respect to Bishonen above, the topical and interpersonal disputes are in a separate league to the issue of inappropriate use of multiple accounts - the Community has always (to this day) expressed strong views on this issue, given how serious a breach of trust it is. A relevant question, I think, is what caused or tempted the user to the inappropriate use of multiple accounts - did it start off during a dispute in the topic (or with Cirt), did it start off as a matter of generality, or was it well-intentioned conduct that was inadvertantly disruptive (which has now been clarified and remedied)? Unless it is the latter, or this is a case where a single account restriction was completely unwarranted, I would not be comfortable with lending support to the removal of a single account restriction (even with a discretionary sanctions regime). If it did start off during a dispute in a topic or with an user, and that user has subsequently demonstrated there are no issues with his editing in that topic or with that user, then I would agree about the chilling effect - but we are not even at that point yet. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not at all sure why anyone thinks there's a need to remove the interaction ban. That seems to be doing its job quite well, and we have no evidence here that the user's behavior has improved in any substantial way. Even more strongly, I see no reason to remove the ban on scientology edits. We're dealing with someone who made a single purpose account to POV push and launch a "campaign"(ArbCom's word) against Cirt. [3] (I strongly suggest that people review that finding of fact and the evidence in the case). That was the finding of fact. So far, we've seen no reason to think that the user even is willing to say that maybe his actions were wrong or against policy. We have no reason to think he isn't going to go back to his usual disruption of Scientology articles. By all means let him edit, and let him do so far away from Cirt and far away from Scientology. JoshuaZ ( talk) 16:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
For reference, the current restrictions on Lyncs ( talk · contribs) (who previously edited as Justanother ( talk · contribs) and Justallofthem ( talk · contribs)) are:
Your indefinite site ban is suspended subject to your unconditional acceptance of and compliance with the following restrictions:
Single account limitation
You may edit from one account only - currently Lyncs ( talk · contribs) - with no exceptions for whatever reason. You may rename that account provided (i) you immediately notify the committee of the rename; (ii) the redirects from the prior account name remain in place; and (iii) you display a link to the previous account name on your user page.
i) You may neither communicate with nor comment upon or make reference to either directly or indirectly to User:Cirt or their contributions on any page in the English Wikipedia. You may not edit Cirt's talk or user pages though you may, within reason, comment within other pages providing your comments do not relate directly or indirectly to Cirt or their edits. The sole exception to the interaction ban is that you may respond civilly on matters explicitly pertaining to you raised by Cirt or any other editor in any dispute resolution or enforcement context.
ii) Should you violate the letter or spirit of the restrictions above, you may be blocked without prior warning via the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard: on the first occasion for up to one week; on the second occasion for up to one month; and on the third occasion for up to three months. Appeal of any blocks is to the Arbitration Committee.
You are indefinitely topic-banned from Scientology on the standard terms outlined here.
Proposed:
Proposed:
Proposed:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Case link: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images
Initiated by Anthonyhcole ( talk) at 06:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Since the closure of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images, where I was heavily involved as a party and not mentioned or sanctioned in the conclusions, and the subsequent Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Muhammad images I've edited Muhammad a few times:
and been engaged in significant constructive discussion on the talk page:
A couple of weeks ago I attempted to begin a discussion about image curation on the sub-page Talk:Muhammad/images#Query but dropped it when no one took it up. I was however advised by seven editors that I may not discuss that topic. This was not my reading of the arbitration conclusion.
A couple of days ago at Talk:Muhammad#Edit_request_on_15_June_2012 a new editor requested that pictures of Muhammad be removed from the article. Four editors responded:
- Mdann52: Please address your issues at Talk:Muhammad/Images
- Veritycheck: I'm sorry, unfortunately the Wikipedia community has decided that there is a consensus to keep pictures of Muhammad in the article. Apologies on my behalf and the other editors here who disagreed with the decision.
- Tarc: Yes, WP:NOTCENSORED is the applicable policy here. Thank you for your concern.
- Anthonyhcole: That policy, WP:NOTCENSORED, explains why Wikipedia doesn't have to remove those images, Huzaifah but I can't point you to a policy that says we have to include them, because there is no such policy. It is our free choice to include them or not in the article. We have a right to but no obligation. Unfortunately, Wikipedia's official stance toward you is that we don't care that it offends you. Even though most of the figurative depictions of the prophet (pbuh) in this article add nothing to the reader's understanding of his life, we have decided to include them, because we like to. No other valid reason. Despite the vast majority of us knowing that you'll be disaffected by them, and knowing that we can't tell you one thing that they add to the reader's understanding of the life of the prophet (pbuh), we want to, so we do, and we don't care that you're offended. That is, we don't care enough to remove these totally gratuitous images. On behalf of Wikipedia, I'd like to say sorry, but I can't because we're (as a community) not.
Tarc disagreed with my clarification of the situation for the new editor and threatened me with arbitration enforcement if I didn't strike or remove it at User_talk:Anthonyhcole#possible_AE_filing.
Could the committee please clarify for me whether there is a ban in place on discussing the curation of figurative depictions of Muhammad? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 06:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@Singularity. I can't trust you because I don't have a clue who you are. Have we ever edited the same page before this? I had you, and not only you, in mind when I used "most" rather than "all" in "...most are bitterly opposed to my view. Most of them have been attacking me..." Please don't be offended. I assume the arbitrators will be able to clarify this for me. I can't assume that about you. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 16:59, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@Mathsci, you accuse me of disrupting to make a point, a very serious charge, and cite (a) me removing an image of Muhammad from the article that had been added shortly beforehand without discussion, the removal of which everybody on the talk page has agreed was appropriate, and (b) my insertion of an image of Mahatma Gandhi to illustrate a large quote from Gandhi, which most editors agree was reasonable (though most disagree with the choice). Would you please withdraw the disruption assertion? This kind of mud sticks. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 20:53, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@Arbitrators. Mathsci is deliberately misleading you here. A few days ago I saw a figurative depiction of Muhammad going into the article without discussion, and accidentally removed the wrong image, which I restored 3 minutes later when I removed the correct image. Nomoskedasticity noticed the image removal today and, thinking I was being a dick deleting a long-standing image, restored it. After a little confusion, this was sorted out on the talk page at Talk:Muhammad/images#Image_removal and the thread was closed at 10:54. At 11:12 Mathsci said here "(Anthony's) edits currently give the appearance of disrupting wikipedia to make a point. Without seeking prior consensus, he removed this image of Muhammad [11] from the Islamic depictions section; he then attempted to remove another image [12] while accidentally (?) restoring the first removal." That is, 18 minutes after the talk page discussion closed, and we're all agreed I did the right thing in deleting the image but my edit summaries should have been clearer, and Nomo could have been more careful, and I've explained to everyone that the first image deletion was a mistake quickly corrected (obviously so, if you just look at the page history) Mathsci, seeing that on the surfaace my behaviour there could appear to be disruptive, knowing that it wasn't, but had the appearance of disruption, especially with his false and deceitful description, presented it to you as evidence for my disruptive behaviour. You're being conned.
This has nothing to do with this page, really. But am I meant to just let this stuff sit here? I'd actually appreciate it if an arb or clerk would delete all of the ad hominem, just leaving the question, what is and is not appropriate for discussion on Talk:Muhammad/images, but I guess that's not going to happen. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 22:17, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm unfamiliar with the protocols of this page but, if we're done, thank you. I'll try to avoid any behaviours that can reasonably be interpreted by an intelligent informed observer as disruptive. Since no one has taken up my offer to discuss the replacement of figurative depictions of Muhammad with equally valuable other types of image, the question at the heart of this thread is moot.
Just an observation, for what it's worth. When I entered this debate, the very notion that we, Wikipedia, should take account of the offense we may cause our readers was a taboo topic. The fundamentalist WP:NOTCENSORED cult, was strident and domineering, and was deferred to by the majority who didn't challenge their orthodoxy. The Foundation resolution on controversial images gave moral strength to now-banned Ludwigs2, now-retired Hans Adler, myself and others to stand up to the essential foolishness of the doctrine "we don't care about offense." Over that six months or so, I've seen more and more highly respected editors questioning the absolute supremacy of our right to offend.
Obviously, this autistic/psychopathic orientation toward our readers (and subjects, and often each other) is a long way from being resolved, but a change is afoot. I urge you to weigh our commitment to respect for our readers, subjects and peers against our commitment to openness in all of your dealings here.
When you banned Ludwigs2 and chastised Hans Adler, leading to his departure from the project, I felt betrayed and demoralised; so much so that I essentially abandoned the RfC on Muhammad images - both the discussion around its design and the RfC itself. I now believe I let the project down there. There should have been someone with the necessary corporate memory from my side of the debate involved there, but I just couldn't bring myself to it. It breaks my heart now to look over that RfC at the arrant shallow nonsense its findings were founded on. I have been wagging the tail of that debate a bit, and I apologise for that.
The blind right to offend has won in this case, and it's won by the very tactics I laid out for you above in Mathsci's lies about my motivations. Those tactics are all over Talk:Muhammad/images and the Arbitration evidence and workshop talk pages. They work because their authors fill such pages with such walls of text that no volunteer can reasonably be expected to grasp any more than a sense from them, a sense not justified by close scrutiny.
The only way around that tactic, that I can see, is fierce curation of all arbitration and admin pages for relevance and civility. This page is a disgrace in that respect. I do appreciate the work you all do, and suggest this not as a criticism but as a way to maximise the effectiveness of your precious time here. Efforts are being made at the Fae case, and I applaud that. Please don't be discouraged by criticisms, practice makes perfect. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 07:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken. I do not dispute the legitimacy of the committee's conclusions or the findings of the RfC triumvirate. In fact I am on record twice congratulating the latter on the excellent job they made of an extremely taxing task, and nothing I've said here indicates that I intend to continue arguing my position ad nauseam. As far as bald faced kicks in the groin to the community go, I'll continue to speak my mind on the project's dysfunctional stance towards offensive behaviour.
@PhilKnight. Autism is a disorder that features among other traits diminished ability to appreciate offensive behaviour. Autists frequently say the most appalling things and fail to recognise, at least in the usual immediate feeling way that normal people do, the offense, or the magnitude of the offense they cause. This is considered by most people to be a seriously socially disabling impairment. Psychopaths can usually recognise when they're offending others but, lacking empathy, don't care. This project, at least until recently proudly chanted the mantra, "we don't care if we offend our readers." I believe WP:NOTCENSORED still essentially says that. (I can't bear to read that document again.) That is, a large number of vocal Wikimedians proudly assume a stance toward our readers and subjects that socially functional people consider to be both detrimental to social integration and anti-social.
I've discussed this elsewhere, so one or two of your colleagues will have known what I was alluding to with "autistic/psychopathic." It's not a throw-away slur; it's a deeply- and long-considered critique of this project. I apologise for not taking the trouble to elaborate earlier. That was thoughtless of me. But, that said, everyone is entitled to their view and if you believe I pose a threat to the project I invite you to act according to your best lights. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 16:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Tarc knows that I believe you don't have to be mentally ill to go along with this crazy perspective, you just need to be persuaded it's sensible. Despite this, below he says that I dismiss those who support the principle of WP:NOTCENSORED as a bunch of feeble-minded autistics. He's doing what Mathsci did, taking something a bit complicated, that superficially looks bad for me and, knowing that the truth differs from the superficial appearance, nevertheless purveys the superficial version because it looks right on a superficial reading, and realistically, very few readers are going to grasp the more subtle explanation.
I am getting so tired of this. I came here for help in understanding my obligations with regard to Talk:Muhammad/images. Feel free to initiate whatever action you believe is appropriate but do it in an appropriate forum. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 18:27, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
@SilkTork, you assert that I am disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. I refute that. What do you base that on? I have asked Jimbo's opinion of the outcome of the Muhammad images business, tried to initiate a discussion on the curation of images at Talk:Muhammad/images, with no takers, so I dropped it, explained the situation wrt figurative depictions of Muhammad to a new editor, come here asking for guidance regarding the implications of the arbitration result for the discussion of image curation at Talk:Muhammad/images, and, while here, have recommended that you exert some discipline over the pages you control. If I've missed something, please tell me.
Is it disruptive to do those things? If so, how?
You assert that I am making comments that are intended to stir up discontent. I'm not doing that. Obviously some of what I say displeases some editors but that's an unintended byproduct. The intention of each of the abovementioned actions is as stated.You offend me by your assumption of bad faith there.
You say, "when a decision is made that we disagree with, we accept it and move on". I have come here to find out what that means. Does that mean that we're not permitted to discuss the curation of figurative depictions of Muhammad at Talk:Muhammad/images? If I read them correctly, at least one of your colleagues seems to think we are permitted. If that is so, what have I done wrong, exactly? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 14:35, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
@AGK and NewYorkBrad, thank you. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 20:55, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Article talk pages are to be used for discussion on how to edit/improve the article. Anthony wants to discuss Muhammad images without any intention to improve the article. This becomes clear in this section, in particular when he says So, just to be clear, I won't be proposing that an edit actually be made to the article". It is also clear in the sardonic and tendentious way he addresses other editors. Anthony's desire to discuss Muhammad images should be satisfied at some other location -- his own talk page, perhaps. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 07:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I have Muhammad on my watchlist and edited it and its talk page just prior to the edit from an account (not yet auto-confirmed) requesting the removal of all images. Requests (or demands) like that occur periodically. Anthonyhcole's reply to that request is posted above. It reflects his personal point of view and not the consensus summarised by the three administrators who closed the RfC set up as a result of the Muhammad images case. As indicated by Future Perfect at Sunrise, one of the administrators involved at WP:AE, if Anthonyhcole intends to reply similarly to future requests of that kind on what he terms "curation of images", he should probably restrict such statements to user talk pages. [13] My understanding is that the results of that RfC were intended to be considered as binding and not to be the subject of future discussion. Mathsci ( talk) 08:46, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@RogerDavies: Anthonycole is not doing what you are talking about. He's talking about raising, once again, the general issue of whether any images that depict the body/form of Muhammad are educational in value. He wants to reargue the RfC. He explicitly stated that he is not proposing discussion of specific images, but rather talking in general. This is not collegial editing. Note that I even agree with much, though not all, of Anthonycole's position...but the RfC results were clear, and I accept that. Qwyrxian ( talk) 10:38, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I was on the verge of filing an Arb Enforcement over this junk, but was advised that Anthony's actions may not be quite to the level of the discretionary sanctions. IMO they are verging on the vexatious and the pointy, particularly the response to that edit request. Pardon my French, but that response was one big fuck-you to the (sizable) majority at the RfC that found the article as it exists now conforms with the principles of the Wikipedia project.
As for "image curation", this line from Anthony's comment above
"I'm hoping to discuss on Talk:Muhammad/images whether, in principle, some of the figurative depictions of Muhammad could be replaced by images that are as attractive and relevant, but don't depict Muhammad."
says it all. How on earth can anyone think that they can reopen the same freakin argument that the RfC decided? The depictions of Muhammad presently in the article are set in stone for the forseeable future. I believe that is the interpretation that most have taken away from the RfC once it closed.
Apologies to Roger, but IMO there is no such thing as "routine replacement or updating of images" on this particular article. This is a landmine every time someone tries and it should just be left alone for a good while. Tarc ( talk) 14:31, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@note: IMO Anthonycole is insulting those who support the principle of WP:NOTCENSORED, e.g. the "diminished ability to appreciate offensive behaviour" line. Time and time again it has been explained that disagreeing with Anthony on how to deal with offensiveness is not the same as lacking the ability to recognize it. Tarc ( talk) 17:41, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
I think it's abundantly clear that Anthonyhcole's intent is to continue to discuss this until he achieves a result he agrees with. That kind of thinking is precisely why the case went to Arbcom and ultimately to an RFC. His perspective failed to achieve consensus, as did my diametrically opposed view. That doesn't matter. It's time for us all to be quiet now. At the very least, a "clarification" to Anthony that it's time to be quiet and time to stop changing the images is in order. If clarification isn't sufficient, a formal topic ban would be the next step.— Kww( talk) 14:05, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
Echoing Tarc and Kww. Related to the quote of Anthony's that Tarc posted above, Anthony now seems intent on discussing the merits of adding an image of Mahatma Gandhi to this article, simply because a Gandhi quote is contained. Obvious reason is obvious: The more irrelevant or tangental (and that is charitable int his case) images he stuffs onto an article about Muhammad, the fewer relevant images directly related to the article subject can be placed. He also chose to complain at Jimbo's talk page about how the RfC went against his position in a bid to start yet another an argument over the exact same things that were consistently rejected over the course of months of discussion, multiple RFCs and the previous arbitration case. It becomes obvious that Anthony will not voluntarily drop the stick, and that he will continue to waste everyone's time until he either gets his way or is forced out of the topic area. Reso lute 15:39, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I guess I was notified about this Request for Clarification because of this edit I made, where I (correctly, IMO) quoted WP:TALKEDABOUTIT to indicate that it may be considered disruptive to bring up a subject again so soon after consensus was determined. Generally, though, I haven't participated too much on the discussion on Talk:Muhammad and Talk:Muhammad/images, although both are on my watchlist.
That being said, from watching those pages I have made a few observations. Specifically, in relation to this Request for Clarification, I have observed the following recent behaviour from Anthonyhcole on the related talk pages:
In relation to the first issue, I believe WP:TALKEDABOUTIT is the applicable policy. The community had a very heated debate at the RFC, with many different proposals introduced and discussed. Ultimately, a consensus was determined on May 28th. Less than one week later, and Anthonyhcole was trying to debate the issue again. He says that he was just having a conversation, and other editors are free to ignore him, but that makes no sense. The image talk page is to discuss how to improve the Muhammad article, specifically in relation to the images. It is not a forum or a place to have non-specific conversations. If Anthonyhcole is not interested in re-determining the consensus, than why initiate the conversation? If he is trying to re-determine the consensus, than I think some time should be waited until after the RFC (i.e. not a few days).
In relation to the second issue, I have no problem with Anthonyhcole (or any editor for that matter) telling a new editor that they sympathize with the new editor's request to remove the images, but that the consensus is to keep them. Where I and other editors take issue is when Anthonyhcole posts a comment like this (which Anthonyhcole quoted in his statement at the top). What ends up happenening is that Anthonyhcole claims to speak on behalf of a consensus he does not agree with and then assigns that consensus with untrue motives and intentions:
When called out on these types of comments, Anthonyhcole's repeated claim is that his is just having a conversation, and we don't have to participate if we don't want to. Its this type of passive-aggresive comments that are keeping all of the other editors frustrated. Singularity42 ( talk) 15:53, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@ Anthonyhclole:
Wow, Anthonyhcole really wants to get topic-banned. I hope somebody obliges him soon.— Chowbok ☠ 17:00, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
This statment by Anthonyhcole, above, is significant:
When you banned Ludwigs2 and chastised Hans Adler, leading to his departure from the project, I felt betrayed and demoralised; so much so that I essentially abandoned the RfC on Muhammad images - both the discussion around its design and the RfC itself. I now believe I let the project down there. There should have been someone with the necessary corporate memory from my side of the debate involved there, but I just couldn't bring myself to it. It breaks my heart now to look over that RfC at the arrant shallow nonsense its findings were founded on. I have been wagging the tail of that debate a bit, and I apologise for that.
In this statement the committee can see that it is Anthonyhcole's position that the results of the RfC are not legitimate -- both because he did not participate, and because it did not return the outcome he desired -- and that he intends to re-litigate it ad nauseum until he gets the results he wants. This kind of bald-faced kick-in-the-groin to the community cannot stand, and should not be allowed to go un-sanctioned, lest this issue fester forever. Many people disagreed with the results of the RfC, to one extent or another, but are willing to compromise and accept the results for the sake of collegiality and community harmony. One person's intransigence cannot be allowed to continue to disrupt the peace, when so many others have suppressed their own disagreements in the face of a community-wide decision. (There can be no legitimate argument that this particular RfC did not represent the entire diversity of community opinions.)
The committee needs to take heed of WP:BURO and deal with this case as if were an instance of an AE filing. I know of no reason why the committee, administrators all, cannot enforce their own rulings. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 10:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Andries Andries ( talk) at 21:20, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request: No users except me.
Request to re-edit Sathya Sai Baba movement. I lost to a great extent interest in the subject and have little time. But I still have a lot of good sources on the subject on the shelf. I bought them because they were recommended in arbcom case Sathya Sai Baba 1. What a waste when they are on my book shelf and only very few people have access to the contents. The article was never controversial, unlike Sathya Sai Baba. But after I stopped editing the Sathya Sai Central Trust, an organization that is part of the movement, has received much criticism. I was the only substantial contributor. I promise that I will revert max. once per month. I will not get involved in lengthy discussions or dispute resolution, because I do not have time. Andries ( talk) 21:20, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Andries ( talk) 21:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nobody Ent at 12:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Since being topic banned from the Rfa talk page MF has periodically used the comments sections to aggressively engage other commenters; the most current example has resulted in Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Malleus_Fatuorum; A civil request to correct an edit of another editors signature [18] escalated unnecessarily [19]. Additional examples of comments not related to the candidate [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] Nobody Ent 8:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
ArbCom previously found ...his comments are derisive and belittling. The volume and consistency of his participation has affected the quality of discourse on the page.
The signature incident and reaction following were ridiculous. Fram should have simply fixed the signature glitch when they saw it, and Malleus should have looked at the diff provided and fixed it when it was pointed out. The resultant ANI thread turned out to be vehement, emotional, and unproductive. This suggests the situation described by Risker last December -- simply too divisive to continue as is -- remains essentially unchanged.
As a remedy to its prior finding, the committee topic banned Malleus from WT:RFA while explicitly " explicitly does not prevent him from !voting on RFA's."
Had the signature glitch occurred in the context of reasonable discussion, it most likely would have been dealt with appropriately. In fact, it occurred in the context of not of discussion of the merits of Ryan Vesey as a potential administrator, but rather following a demeaning statement regarding another editor Actually what's clear is that you have no idea what you're talking about, and are incapable of independent thought. To reduce the likelihood of future disruption, I'm suggesting the committee logically extend its current restriction of Malleus from the WT:RFA space to the WP:RFA space; specifically, that he limit he comments to the merits of the candidate rather than characterizations of the other participants in the discussion. Such characterizations:
I further suggest wording to the effect of Unnecessary comments in RFA discussions belittling Malleus Fatuorum may be removed by any administrator to minimize the probability of ongoing baiting.
All this is excessive nannyism and should not be necessary but evidence suggests that something is. Editors should interact with each other in a respectful and civil manner. is supposed to be a core Wikipedia policy. Nobody Ent 10:57, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The discussion of the WP:FRINGE guideline was germane to a question asked of the candidate. While ascertaining whether the questioner (as opposed to the candidate) fully understood the policy is a slight veer off-topic, it is far less off-topic than discussions in almost every other RfA. Plus it was interesting. A kerfuffle arose which had nothing to do with whether MF was discussing the candidate or someone else. If the Committee wants to rule that no one can ever engage in off-topic discussions, I have a tide I'd like them to order rolled back. If the committee entertains the notion that a specific editor should have the unique prohibition of staying narrowly on-topic, I think we need a far better argument than noting that a technical glitch turned into some harsh words elsewhere.-- SPhilbrick (Talk) 15:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I was one of the editors who offered evidence for this sanction
in the first place. Since it has been enacted, I have found that it is not fit for purpose. Specifically, it can be used to silence Malleus Fatuorum by moving discussions on a vote to the talk page - so long discussions sometimes remain on the RfA. The focus should be at
WT:RfA specifically, which is where (in my opinion) the disruption occurred, not the subpages. I should also note that no uninvolved administrator has yet topic banned Malleus from a specific RfA (to the best of my knowledge). I would propose shortening the remedy to
Malleus Fatuorum is indefinitely topic banned from Wikipedia talk:Requests for Adminship.
I do not see the rest of the remedy as useful.
WormTT(
talk) 15:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
As said on ANI, this was a case of Mally being baited by Fram.
I wanted to comment on this diff, that User:Br'er Rabbit brought above. I've had to fix a lot of edit conflict messes from other editors, as they generally result in text getting inserted into the header of a page. I've never seen anything end up erroneously within another person's comment. I accept Malleus' eventual explanation that this was indeed a technical error, but I don't think there was reason to assume anything either way when Fram contacted Malleus. My first thought on seeing an edit like Malleus' would have indeed been to see how the editor would explain it when confronted. Fram presented the matter without any accusatory demeanor, but simply asked that the edit be corrected. There was no baiting. Malleus nevertheless chose not to explain anything until the matter was brought to ANI, and instead responded with stonewalling and insults until then. Equazcion (talk) 18:37, 4 Jul 2012 (UTC)
@Parrot of Doom: I'll make you a deal: If consensus is that that comment of mine you linked to is indeed on the level of Malleus' behavior, I'll gun for an indefinite block for both Malleus and myself. Equazcion (talk) 21:12, 4 Jul 2012 (UTC)
@Volunteer Marek: If mirroring sanctions on another person from the other side should somehow make enacting them on Malleus easier, I hereby volunteer. I'd take a three-month ban, so long as Malleus gets it too. I'll gladly give up three months of my wiki-life to give three months of reprieve to the rest of Wikipedia from Malleus' vitriol. Yeah yeah, content creation, but I actually think maintaining the right environment is more important than retaining one good content creator. The former has the potential to retain more content creators and general positive contributions. Or you can ban us both from all corners of RfA, though admittedly I tend to stay away from there on my own already. Equazcion (talk) 18:54, 5 Jul 2012 (UTC)
@Ched: If it could be said that every time Malleus calls someone a twat it's because someone else prodded him into it, then this has happened enough times that we can say Malleus is far too easily prodded. It takes two to tango. Being prodded, if it has happened (and I'm definitely not saying it has), is not an excuse for the type of behavior Malleus exhibits. I get prodded all the time, as do others, and none of us react that way. We're under the impression that we're expected to control ourselves and not fly off the handle whenever an excuse comes along. Either we're all mistaken and are actually welcome to act like children when someone presents the opportunity, or we're not and Malleus needs a clear and broad edict to shape up or suffer a lasting consequence. Equazcion (talk) 00:02, 6 Jul 2012 (UTC)
@Pesky: Calling the other side the "out-to-get-Malleus brigade," in same post where you say you're sick of polarizing name-calling from us such as "fan club," etc, is pretty vexing. And in response to this exchange:
Malleus either actually needs to understand civility, or he needs further restrictions. As someone who regularly uses bad language (when appropriate) I find it increasingly difficult to understand why Malleus' behaviour hasn't started to improve to a level where we don't have to have an ANI thread about him every five minutes. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 18:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Lets also be clear that the diffs recently presented on ANI ( [26] [27]) aren't exactly borderline incivility. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 18:54, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
This was all precipitated by Malleus's argument with IRWolfie, specifically this response which not only suggested that IRWolfie should re-read the Earth article, but also managed to insert "In the past there were varying levels of belief in a flat Earth" in the middle of IRWolfie's sig in the previous comment. Now nobody is going to convince anybody that that is anything other than a glitch. In fact, reading on, Malleus clearly didn't even realise it had happened. It just isn't the sort of thing Malleus does. At that point I have no idea why on earth common sense didn't prevail and somebody simply didn't remove the sentence from the middle of IRWolfie's sig.
Even if we allow that Malleus needed to know it had happened, surely the way to approach it would be to ask him on his talk page why – or if he knew that – he had inserted a sentence in the middle of IRWolfie's sig? Once somebody goes to his page and takes this approach, with an assumption of the editing being "intentional", we know that common sense has been ditched again, and this is a trawling expedition expecting Malleus to respond sharply. Congratulations, he did. Why does anybody waste their time on moah dramah like this? Sometimes I despair for this project. -- RexxS ( talk) 19:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Here is the sequence of events for the current incident: I am an FTN regular and so I wished to determine how familiar with fringe guidelines the candidate was (I like to consider I am relatively familiar with them as I look at them and the related WP:NPOV often). The candidate answered the question, (whilst noting that he was not very familiar with them) and I was not entirely satisfied with the answer and I provided my reasoning whilst voting neutral. A simple two comment discussion between me and malleus about whether his answer was right or wrong resulted in this comment out of the blue: [28]. When I pointed out the example I gave was is in WP:UNDUE I got this hostile reply: [29]. This reply also changed my signature, presumably by accident and I fixed my signature here [30], and then went to his talk page to leave a comment on being WP:UNCIVIL, I noticed a thread related to my sig and commented there instead noting I had fixed it User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum#Editing_someone_else.27s_comment. After noting his incivility, I had this directed at me: "Just remind me, why should I give a fuck about what you think about anything?" directed at me so I posted to ANI (the notification of which resulted in [31]). As I noted at ANI, changing my sig by accident isn't the issue here, it's the insults etc [32].
To my knowledge I have not interacted with this editor before this incident: [33]. IRWolfie- ( talk) 09:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
@Boing! said Zebedee. It is not the same as poking a bear, At a normal discussion about policy & guidelines at Requests for adminship (related to an answer given by the nominee), Malleus disagreed with my interpretation, which then resulted in this [34] and this [35], with no provocation. IRWolfie- ( talk) 14:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
@Rexxs: "Why does the community act like a huge Petri dish and grow disputes like cultures" - Because when faced with entrenched viewpoints, the community is left paralyzed, and disputes go unresolved as a result. There is no other path left but escalation. And that, alas, is the problem we have with Malleus. I won't say whether today is that day, but Arbcom is ultimately going to have to make a choice between two significantly opposed camps. The first is that Malleus' editing contributions are enough to justify overlooking his behavioural problems. The second is that his behavioural problems represent a net negative to the project that outweighs his positive editing. We can quantify Malleus' productivity as an editor, but the damage he does through his behaviour is very subjective. That is why the community can't resolve the problem he represents, and that is why it will fall to Arbcom. I would suggest that the fact that more than one editor in the ANI thread has brought up the argument that "blocking is ineffective, so why bother?" is a good indication that the damage his attitude does has surpassed the good his editing does. No editor is irreplaceable, and it is well past time for Malleus' immunity to be ended. He needs to be told to either adjust his behaviour to match expectations, or he needs to be told to leave. Reso lute 20:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I've seen MF being highly uncivil for years. I also regularly see him ignoring or arguing against well-established concepts of our
WP:NPOV policy like
WP:UNDUE and
WP:FRINGE to advance particular (and peculiar) viewpoints. I might not be the most unbiased person here (certainly not the most biased either), but MF has a very serious problem of not respecting other editors, not respecting policy he disagrees with, and acting like a bully to try to get his way. His recent personal attacks on any editor who tried to talk to him about errors he made are unacceptable, but also just his standard operating procedure here. It has to stop.(*See below.)
Someone asked what can be done about it because nothing so far has worked. The answer is simple, and the one Wikipedia has successfully used for years: increasingly lengthy blocks as the behavior continues. Some people have argued that doesn't help anything, but I would offer myself up as an example of it having worked. I tried looking for a list of my blocks by length and date but couldn't figure it out, be the short version is this: When admins could start doubling the length of my blocks, I pitched a fit, I complained about it being unfair, but, you know, after a while I had to choose whether I wanted to start acting more in line with what the community wanted so I could continue to edit here or whether I was willing to stick to my guns and get forced out. And while I'm probably always going to be a bit terse with people who aren't following policy, I'm making the effort, which is something MF cannot say. More importantly, I've not been blocked again for I don't even know how long, and any complaints have been the standard boomerang back on the person complaining situations.
Furthermore, this is what I was expected to follow, and what other editors who found themselves in similar situations had to follow, so I really do not think it's fair that MF has been allowed to not be held to the same standards.
If someone knows how to look up my block stats and wants to post them below my comments in this section as proof, and add any relevant observations, please feel free. Enforcement works, as long as it is done so consistently and fairly. DreamGuy ( talk) 21:59, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Like so many processes here, the act of "seeking justice" is more disruptive than the act itself by a full factor or more. Being someone who has been on the receiving end of Malleus's disapproval at least twice (including my own RFA) I do seem to notice a double standard here. Malleus can be blunt, and frankly foul mouthed, so can other editors who would normally be warned instead of threatened to be blocked. We can talk of histories, but at some level each instance has to stand on its own. The problem is that his reputation preceeds him and is highly overstated. When he decides to vent and be rude enough to warrant a warning, everything seems to explode into a fury of activity focused on getting him blocked. This puts Malleus on the defensive, which doesn't bring out the best of him either, and the whole event spirals further down hill and pretty soon the "discussion" is more disruptive than anything he had done to begin with. It makes it impossible for any admin to take action or for him to get a fair review, and it ends up in a dogpile at ANI or here. It is the circumstance and not solely him that brings us to that point.
It is no secret that Malleus feels slighted by the system here, and there may be some merit to his claims as we are constantly reviewing and changing at Wikipedia, and there is always room for improvement, and for whatever reason, a crowd always follows. To be blunt, Malleus can be a pain in the ass at times, but he is worthwhile editor who may use crude language on talk pages but has done nothing but good in articles. It is difficult to get an objective action when he does something trout-worthy because there are so many eyes on his every move. We should be exceedingly careful when taking action to insure it isn't punitive. We should lead by example by being as neutal, civil and understanding as we are asking him and every other community member to be. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:18, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I was scared shitless when Malleus stepped in to do the GA review of Tom Johnson (bareknuckle boxer) and, guess what, that was because I had seen so much about that negative reputation but never really had any dealings with the man. He was brilliant then, has been since and, yes, he is a real person with real feelings. I am not going to divulge personal stuff here but this man is incredibly considerate and really does empathise and hold dear his own life experiences. (I have met him once, but we barely spoke on that occasion because everyone else wanted a chat with him!). He is not some sort of "my way or the high way" automaton. While the language can be colourful, if I was subjected to the sort of ganging-up that often follows some minor disagreement or misunderstanding then I too would be telling people to piss off etc. Dammit, I must have a dozen or more quite big disagreements here every week..
What is most needed here is for the "regulars" in the umpteen debates for and against him to back off. Which is why I said nothing in the ANI thread that led to this report. - Sitush ( talk) 00:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Heh, just refreshed this preliminary to putting my thoughts together. Hi Risker! :) May take a while, but on the way... Franamax ( talk) 01:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I feel the one comment made to Wolfe was a typical case of someone getting a bit too frustrated when engaging in a discussion. The rest appears to just be people poking at Malleus with a stick to see how he will react, which is never a good idea. While the initial parties to the dispute may have done this out of ignorance, several who came in later clearly knew with whom they were dealing and, as such, should have known better than to provoke him with comments about his maturity. As it regards the suggested amendment, I see no cause for expanding the restriction. It already clearly provides for banning Malleus from an RFA where he is found to be engaging in the discussion in a disruptive manner and that remedy could have been appropriately acted on in this case. Unless Ent can provide a substantive reason for why the current remedy is insufficient I see no cause for implementing this suggestion. The appropriate place for raising further issues concerning this dispute would seem to be AE.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 01:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Quite aside from the hypocrisy of Wikipedia's double standard in immunizing experienced editors from behavior that'd get anon IPs indef blocked a hundred times over, what is the point of WP:CIVIL if it is not enforced? I am not only sick and tired of MF and his ilk running roughshod over civility, I'm sick and tired of the hypocrisy of their supporters, who seem to have chosen sides more along the lines of "I like the guy so anyone asking him to follow Wikipedia rules is a HATER" than for any other consideration. That the very same people often are quite ready to jump on others for incivility, real or imagined, at places like ANI is doubly ironic. Either enforce WP:CIVIL or demote it to an essay, but don't for an instance fancy that it's a net gain to keep a hothead like MF on board, because we lose productive editors who either want no part of such antics, or want no part of a encyclopedia that falsely claims to have civility rules.
That being said, I'm militantly disinterested in the notion that he was "baited" and thus "had" to respond in kind. Quite aside that our rules forbid any such retaliation, quite aside that you'd think someone with such a long block log would have the basic foresight to make a particular effort to keep his nose clean, do some of you truly think that Wikipedia is a children's playground, in which it's de rigeur to respond to playground taunts in kind? Me, I'd rather believe that we are adults, who can be expected to behave in an adult fashion.
Finally, as far as PhilKnight's comments below are concerned, oh please. RfA is a "discussion," not a "vote?" Since when? Would Phil care to share with us the number of nominees who hit 75% and failed to be promoted, as well as the number of nominees who fell below 70% and gained the mop anyway? (If he doesn't, I'll be happy to do so.) This is entirely a headcount, and about as rigid as any Wikipedia has. Ravenswing 04:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure how these AE thingies work, but presumably I'm meant to reply here rather on each individual statement? I only have a few things to say anyway:
It would have been nice if anyone had dropped me a note that I was being discussed here, but oh well.
I did not bait Malleus Fatuorum in any way, I saw that Malleus Fatuorum had changed someone else's comment (willfully or not), and wanted to draw their attention to it and see their reaction. If their reaction had been "oops, edit conflict" or "weird, no idea how that happened", then we all could have moved along. Instead, I got a very defensive reply. I considered that very telling, and said as much. No idea what was supposed to be "defensive" about that comment, but Malleus Fatuorum did all he could to make the situation worse. Looking at his other contributions from the same day, this turned out to be the standard modus operandi. The only thing I would handle differently the next time is that I would have blocked him for his severe personal attacks (against others, not against me). And now I'm off to ANI to see what was said in that discussion since the time I stopped editing yesterday... Fram ( talk) 06:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
(by the way, the automated edit summary for this page starts incorrectly: "/* {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment|Requests for clarification and amendment|Requests for clarification and amendment}} */"
Isn't it obvious what happened here? Look at the relevant version of the RFA in question and scroll right down to the bottom (that text stuck in the signature makes no sense). Malleus's response that added that text included the line: "I suggest that you re-read the Earth article, which does link to flat Earth theories". It should come as no surprise that the bit of text that ended up in IRWolfie's signature is a direct copy and paste from the Earth article of the sentence that includes this link (the text is present in this version). Surely what happened here (as User:Br'er Rabbit said above somewhere) is that Malleus had copied the text intending to quote it, or had highlighted it in some way while reading the article and noticing that the article linked to flat Earth theories, and some inadvertent keypress ended up pasting the text? I've done that in e-mails where the cursor ended up somewhere strange and I've been typing and not noticed I was putting text in the wrong place. There is also a common keypress that pastes recently copied text, which I've hit accidentally in the past. What is depressing is how things spiralled out of control from there. All that was needed was to remove the inadvertent text inclusion, and not even notify anyone, it was so obvious it was not intentional. Whether arbitrators want to spend time working out why things went downhill after that is up to them. The original filer of the request may (or may not) have a case to be made about the other diffs presented, but that is mostly being ignored, it seems, in favour of the current drama. Carcharoth ( talk) 08:10, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Side topic
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One further point. Reading a couple of the comments here and on user talk pages, there does seem to be something of a generational and cultural conflict here. By that, I mean that some of the animosity seems to arise from attitudes of contempt that are openly expressed (towards those that contribute less content and those who are younger). Some of this seems to be motivated by a desire to 'reform' the community and prompt a change in attitudes, but there is fine line between that and fomenting conflict and battleground attitudes. It is better to write about such things in essays and consider how to gather support for changes that could help. Just sounding off about things in various locations in the middle of random discussions doesn't actually achieve anything. A prime example (and I apologise to Malleus for bringing it up here, but it needs to be said) is this. What exasperates me is the idea that any teenager (or the more impressionable of the early 20s university student demographic) reading that will be anything other than annoyed by that. You don't change attitudes in teenagers by railing at them. You just have to let them grow out of it. Ched in his statement below seems to be asking ArbCom to take the role of parents to teenage children, which is something that is completely unmanageable. Going back to what Malleus said on his user talk page, the image of someone on the internet telling 'kids' on Wikipedia to fuck off is laughable. It's like a red rag to a bull. You just have to learn how to handle yourself on Wikipedia, rather than trying to adapt Wikipedia to suit you (see the George Bernard Shaw quote Malleus provided in that diff). Carcharoth ( talk) 05:09, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
All of you, find something better to do. VolunteerMarek 08:23, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh screw it, I'll tell you what I really think.
As the guardians of The Wikipedia the ArbCom faces a trilemma. There's really only three possible ways out of this recurring nightmare. Ok, it's actually only a good ol' fashioned dilemma, since two of the options are simply mirror images of each other, but I always like describing a situation as a "trilemma" since that makes it sound a bit more sophisticated. So anyway, here's your options:
The mirror image options, call them Options Alpha and Omega involve slapping the people who do this hard enough so that it doesn't happen again, at least for awhile. The only difference is whom the mighty hand of the ArbCom decides to "admonish". If you choose to follow this path turn to page 68... wait no, if you choose to follow this path then in all honesty the best thing you can do is just flip a freakin' coin and then commence with the smackin'.
Option Alphas - get it over with and indef ban Malleus from The Wikipedia. There'll be gnashing of teeth, complaints about how Courcelles is the new Enver Hoxa (I'm being careful here to avoid violating Goodwin's Law), complaints to Jimbo, people ripping their clothes off in public and wailing like banshees about how The Wikipedia is now ruined for all eternity. But if you just put that little "Do not unblock without permission from ArbCom" (often used on many a less famous user) in the block summary then, after three months or so everyone on this site will be like "Malleus who?". The Wikipedia has short memory and given our current retention rate, as well as all them valiant efforts from Sue Gardner at recruiting new editors, at that point we'll probably have 90% new editors anyway.
Option Omega - go the other way, desysop the fuck (as in desysop them very very strongly) out of all the damn admins who keep bringing this nonsense up, as well as slap all the lesser peeps with a three month site ban. Wait, that's actually milktoasty. No, desysop every admin that has commented on this page so far, on whichever side, and three month site ban any of the lesser peeps.
In the first category this would mean desysopping (like fuck) User:Worm That Turned, User:Sphilbrick, User:Resolute, User:Nikkimaria (you don't get off easy just cuz you're replying to others' statements rather than posting one of your own. Revolutionary justice!), User:Dennis Brown, User:Franamax and User:Fram (I would appreciate it if any of the admins that have commented above would politely get in the appropriate de-sysopping que).
Additionally you would need to three month site ban User:Equazcion, User:Eraserhead1, User:HandThatFeeds, User:IRWolfie-, User:DreamGuy, User:The Devil's Advocate, User:Ravenswing, User:Br'er Rabbit as well as of course... well, myself since I'm in the process of being just as guilty as everyone else, and of course User:Malleus Fatuorum and User:Nobody Ent.
That kind of knocking of noggins' together should make it clear to everyone that creating this idiotic drama, on whichever side is just not worth. Of course if you think that this is too much of a purge you could just flip that coin (I know you guys have one, only way to explain past ArbCom decisions) again and desysop, say, 3 out of the 7 administrators, and three month ban 5 out of the 11 non-administrators above.
What would happen then? Well, his three month ban aside, Malleus would probably do a little jig and there'd be some talk on some talk pages about how Malleus fought the law and won or something, but the law is unjust anyway. But in, hell, not even three months, with anyone scared to try and get him blocked again, Malleus would either a) get bored and go back to content editing which is why The Wikipedia keeps him around in the first place, b) get bored and fade away from "the project" like many before him or c) keep talking to himself and his closest buddies in some corner of The Wikipedia that everyone else can safely ignore. Wait - in regard to outcome c)... why isn't this already happening?
Ok, those are the two mirror options but sometimes, having observed an ArbCom case or two I have a feeling neither is going to happen. So you can go with the other corner of the trilemma, the Option ü-lambda (yes, I am aware those two letters are not even in the same alphabet but I'm complicated like that), which stands for "Option Uber-Lame" for those of you who dislike diacritics or something.
Option Ü-Lambda involves the outcome that always occurs but being so brutally honest about what it involves so that the appeal of engaging in this drama is significantly decreased. Basically it means saying to everyone: "You know how the saying says that history repeats itself first as tragedy and then as a farce" (I think I got that wrong but whatevers). Well, what happens if it keeps repeating itself again after it's already been repeated as a farce? History, tragedy, farce... what happens after that? The stupid idiocy we're in that's what. "Farce" is far too noble of a word to describe it with.
So just say it. "We are not going to do crap to anybody because taking an actual stance on this insanely stupid controversy would endanger our chances in the next ArbCom election or might otherwise piss off too many people. Hence we will follow the usual way of The Wikipedia and make pronouncements and pontificate but otherwise do nothing. Thank you for playing, see you next time, but please try, just try to realize how pathetic all of this is". If the ArbCom can just take a leading messianic role in admitting it's ineffectualness and patheticness in the circumstances of this case, perhaps others will too, and sincere heartfelt chest beating mea culpas will result. And the sound of a thousand fists beating against a thousand guilty chest will drown out the wolf cries of the githyanki and usher in a new scarlet dawn of a new millen .... ah sorry, getting lost there. Basically, maybe it will be enough to make at least some of the people involved - Malleus and his friends, his enemies, random passerbys and the ArbCom itself, and hey, me too - stop and think "Wow! I'm being a petty idiotic shit here".
VolunteerMarek 09:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
So I'm looking through the diffs provided by the complainant above expecting to see cunt and fuck-bombs left and right, but instead see stuff like "Fix it yourself" and "I'm actually rather staggered that 25% of the currently active admins can even string two sentences together, never mind take an article through FAC", "You are either joking or innumerate", etc...
My first thought was, "what does innumerate mean?", followed by a trip to Webster, and then a second thought of "we're here for this?" This is milquetoast even by drag-Malleus-to-Arb/ANI standards. Tarc ( talk) 14:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Here we go again--the predictable ArbCom follow-up to an equally predictable ANI thread. Something goes wrong, Malleus Fatuorum says something wrong, next thing you know we're calling for his head. I read things like "[editor X is] sick and tired of MF and his ilk running roughshod over civility" and can only think "whatever". The generalization is unwarranted, and that MF's supporters are hypocrites is really a personal attack which will no doubt be overlooked. (If I, for instance, were such a hypocrite, it could be proven by my blocking non-MF editors for similar infractions--I challenge anyone to find such examples; the same goes, I have no doubt, for admins like John.) Whatever MF has said in this minor issue is within accepted limits, at least in my book, and if actions can speak louder than words I invite anyone to hear what's being said by starting these repetitive ANI threads: if anything's disruptive it's those escalations. As for this particular request: I do not consider this to have been filed in good faith, with the intent of improving the project or as a desperate attempt to try and resolve the situation, as it was phrased on my talk page. Drmies ( talk) 15:09, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
It's always someone else's fault when it comes to Malleus isn't it? He always gets away with blaming his immature inability to control himself on the other person / the system / the cabal. Nobody else gets away with this when it comes to 'civility enforcement'. At this point, his special treatment is so blatant you're just rubbing everyone else's nose in it now. I'm a wikiholic with many thousands of edits behind me - but I contribute here inspite of the daily examples of unfairness like this - the stats show that plenty of other experienced contributors who aren't as dumb as me and have voted with their keyboards, finding something else to give their time to. It's time arbitrators found an effective way to deal with Malleus. If that means changing policy so that everyone else has the freedom he does, then make it so. If that means banning him and putting a marker down to his enablers, make it so. But for the love of God, do something, before you kill the project through sheer inertia, depriving it of the very people who are needed to continue it. Cracker92 ( talk) 17:43, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Unnecessary distraction closed by clerk. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Armageddon Sikkahim!, the new production from The Wikiville Amateur Dramatic Society (WADS) now showing at the Arbcom Theatre, revisits the real-life vicissitudes of small-town writer Patrick O'Dingaugh whose habitual outspokenness brings him into conflict with the town's Civility Police and members of the local Community Church of Pollyanna. His past conviction for blunt speaking while editing an encyclopedia formed the basis for the tragicomic Beastly! Beastly! Beastly!, staged by WADS earlier this year to mixed reviews. In Armageddon Sikkahim! a connected but even more trivial incident is inflated into another screechingly silly melodrama in which O'Dingaugh is exposed as Satan, the townspeople flee, and the town dies. Rumored next in the O'Dingaugh series: O'Dingaugh Ate My Baby! Writegeist ( talk) 18:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
@PhilKnight, Newyorkbrad, et al: not acting on the requested modification preserves the status quo of no response to Malleus Fatuorum's latest incivilities. Discussion has been shut down three times on AN/I, twice [40] [41] by an administrator hostile to civility enforcement who accuses those asking for civility of disruption and acting in bad faith [42] [43] [44]), and finally by a nonadmin [45] because there will be no administrative response now that Arbcom is handling it.
Is Arbcom handling it?? What guidance does Arbcom have for the administrators and community when this happens again? Nothing? Malleus does not acknowledge that he should stop, and will surely call some other editor an asshole, worthless clown, waste of space, or idiot in the future. May he be blocked summarily? Only with consensus? May the block be overturned? Admins presumably had the discretion to block Malleus at the time to prevent disruption, but that's stale now. A block would have met opposition, likely a wider dispute, possibly wheel warring as in the past. We've reached a bizarre state where the very discussion of civility is summarily shut down, with participants accused of bad faith and threatened or chastised by partisan administrators who are supposed to be helping. Is the aggrieved editor tendentious and deserving a block for complaining? I urge Arbcom to say something, if only that this level of civility does not merit action (and why). Forget this particular modification proposal and how it was brought. What happens next time? Should the sanction be modified, or enforced at all?
To state my biases, Malleus and I don't cross paths but I have a strong civility expectation of the project. So I admire his contributions and shy from his name-calling from afar. Collegiality and support make it worth venturing from the more cordial environment at say Quora or Yelp, and fleeing the more chaotic blogs and news sites, to contribute hundreds of articles as I have. The occasional abuse I suffer and witness here make me question my commitment. NONE of these sites would condone name-calling of the sort Malleus indulges, not a one. They summarily delete abusive comments and after due warning block or ban the offending user, no drama, no hand-wringing, and no soul searching. Nor would any professionally run website accuse people of baiting, tag-teaming, or plotting for pointing out obvious violations of their abuse policy. Are we in such a la-la land where this is even a question? Even when directed at others, abuse poisons collaborative pages where we're trying to work.
ArbCom ought to weigh in because inaction in the face of trouble is probably the worst choice. When it does, I urge them to consider that the vast majority of users, those who write the articles but do not flock to the notice boards, probably value a civil place to contribute. It is after all one of our founding principles. - Wikidemon ( talk) 23:11, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
As long as the Arbitration Committee condones (by lack of asserting a firm hand) this childish behavior of provoking and prodding established editors then this type of drama can be expected to continue. I'll agree that Malleus could have easily turned the tide with a "wasn't intended, feel free to fix it" rather than the {{ sofixit}} approach. On the other hand; Fram is no N00b here .. he knew full well what he was doing, and the It turns out to be quite telling. comment was a direct and pointed bait of something that Malleus has said before. Br'er Rabbit and Drimes pretty much nailed the basics above here. And in a sense I agree with NY Brad in the "Not impressed" comment - except that I /AM/ impressed ... just not in a positive way. As long as the committee allows these children to run amok tormenting people who actually contribute valuable content to the project - then you'll have to be prepared to deal with this juvenile drivel from the "puling masses". If you cater to these immature editors rather than offering a firm guiding hand .. then expect to hold court to "Lord of the Flies". It's up to you folks .. I really don't care anymore. But if you're gonna sit "on high" and pass judgment, then ya damn well ought to step back and be objective. — Ched : ? 23:42, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
My sense is that Malleus's enemies are tag-teaming and baiting him in an effort to get him banned and that he hasn't quite figured out how to push back without fouling. He's such an intelligent guy, it's really not that hard. In any event, if discipline is merited it should be directed towards whomever brought this idiotic proceeding and for those who have been baiting Malleus on his talk page. My opinion. Carrite ( talk) 00:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Let's all go write articles. Malleus is damn good at it. We are here to write an encyclopedia, yes? Keilana| Parlez ici 00:17, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Dreamguy said, "I also regularly see him ignoring or arguing against well-established concepts of our WP:NPOV policy like WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE to advance particular (and peculiar) viewpoints." What!? I've never seen Malleus do that, nor do I think I've even seen that alleged about him before. Diffs are required for such a strong claim of wrongdoing. Ladyof Shalott 01:02, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Name-calling is incivility. And it's still incivility when the names are "enthusiast", "enabler", "fan club", "supporter", or anything else along those lines. And, personally, I'm sick of being called names like this by people who either don't "know", me or hardly "know" me, every time there's a conflict. Doesn't anyone accept the possibility that there are actually some good-faith editors in here who'd really like this stuff to be approached in a mature, reasonable, flexible-minded, mediated, think-outside-the-box, constructive (as opposed to destructive) way? So, Arbs, please take note of all the unwarranted personal attacks on the motives, credibility, and personality of the intellectually mature and constructive. And take a good hard look at this kind of incivility which is undermining the strengths of what is allegedly an intellectually-mature society. It's insidious. It's pervasive. It's contemptible. And it's increasing. Pesky ( talk) 10:14, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Somebody pokes the bear with a stick, the bear growls at them, and they go running and crying "Mommy, the nasty bear growled at me - shoot the bear, Mommy!" -- Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 10:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I have lost count of the number of times I've silently fixed somebody else's edit conflict, inadvertent misplaced text-paste or accidental rollback. That would have been a good approach to use here, instead of confronting someone on their talk page to "see how they might react." I would think that from Fram's extensive interactions with Rich Frambrough, he would know that people do not, in fact, react particularly well to being ordered to fix something.
Why anyone was motivated to start an AN/I thread over this utterly trivial argument – much less drag ArbCom into it – is a mystery to me. This can and should have been resolved entirely on the user talk pages of the editors concerned. I would love it if ArbCom were to give some guidance to that effect to the people who decided to escalate this dispute and spread it to AN/I and here. 28bytes ( talk) 14:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I don't have much to say, but I feel there is a relatively widely-held opinion (with which I agree) that Malleus' contributions to anything related to RfA are usually more disruptive than not. For whatever reason, he seems to have a problem with the majority of users who have an admin bit. I think the situation would be further simplified by extending Malleus' topic ban to any page starting with either "Wikipedia:Requests for adminship" or "Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship". In my opinion, the topic ban should have been that broad from the start. A quick look at his recent RfA edits shows a consistently combative and disruptive attitude (which is somewhat normal for Malleus, but not welcome at a place as sensitive as RfA). -Scottywong | talk _ 02:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nug ( talk) at 20:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Are Admins required to place the notice of discretionary sanction on IPs, particularly static IPs, and add them to WP:ARBEE#List_of_editors_placed_on_notice? In two recent 3RN cases [46] [47], User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise blocked both User:Jaan (and FPoS did not take into account there was no diff warning Jaan, unlike admin Kuru did in a subsequent case [48]) and User:16.120.84.244 for breaching the 3RR rule. He subsequently noticed Jaan [49] and added him to the log [50], but did not do the same for the static IP. I asked him why [51], but seems to be ignoring my question [52]. It seems other admins treat IPs equally, for example User_talk:184.36.234.102, but apparently not FPaS. Could the Committee give direction on this. Thanks. -- Nug ( talk) 20:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
This is about nothing. I gave two users a standard (and therefore unlogged) 3RR block. I gave one of them a standard (and properly logged) arb warning at the same time. This is not about formalities of logging stuff, nor about how to treat IPs. It's simply about the fact that Nug, POV ally of the editor I warned, is unhappy I didn't warn the other guy too. Well, so what? I didn't feel like it, because the IP editor was new to the area and I wasn't yet seeing a consistent pattern of problems. But I warned him now, because he resumed edit-warring in the same way immediately after coming back from the block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Gimmetoo ( talk) at 18:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
As a result of motions in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Date_delinking, Ohconfucius editing of date-related material is subject to the jurisdiction of the arbitration committee, though it is unclear what provisions could be used for enforcement.
This clarification concerns two issues.
First, I and others have attempted to get User:Ohconfucius to follow WP:DATERET and stop removing YYYY-MM-DD format dates. This has been ongoing for more than a year, involving ANI [54] [55] [56] and User talk:Ohconfucius. For a recent example: [57], where the accessdates were 100% consistent in YYYY-MM-DD format, and the references used a style directly listed by WP:MOSDATE#In references as acceptable. A pattern of similar edits amounts to an attempted Wikipedia:Fait accompli.
Second, User:Ohconfucius also uses a script that sometimes removes a number of accessdates. Ohconfucius was notified of this on 8 June 2012, and made similar edits after (See User talk:Ohconfucius#More editing problems. I noticed that this same behaviour is still ongoing. [58] [59] [60]
Could the commitee clarify the arbcom enforcement of these behaviours?
The principle behind DATERET (we have an acronym for that now?) was primarily focussed on dates with written months. The use of "ISO" dates has been discussed extensively, and it appears a number of otherwise sane and well-informed Wikipedians had never run across the format before, and were confused, mystified and dismayed by it. For myself this reduced my support for such dates for access date fields from firm to dubious. Nonetheless proper usability statistics should be gathered before coming to a firm conclusion on this, and in general it should be noted that OhConfucious' efforts in this sphere are reasonably well thought out and carefully implemented.
Rich
Farmbrough, 01:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC).
Ohconfucius seems to have retired. I suppose this request should be suspended or dropped. I strongly disagree with Rich's statement that OhConfucious's efforts are "reasonably well thought out and carefully implemented", but WP:DEADHORSE seems to apply here. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by — Rich wales at 06:29, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
This decision currently authorizes discretionary sanctions for "topics related to the Balkans, broadly interpreted". I am requesting a clarification, stating that Cyprus is included in the scope of this remedy. Although Cyprus is not geographically close to the Balkans, it is intimately tied (historically and culturally) to both Greece and Turkey. Thus, I propose that Cyprus-related articles naturally fall under this topic area.
Cyprus-related articles have been subjected to continual edit-warring for years from tendentious editors on both sides — including, in particular, the disruptive activities of the banned user Justice Forever ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and his long list of socks — and I believe further options should be made available to help administrators keep these articles better under control.
I am particularly concerned that the dominance of sockpuppet investigation as the primary tool for keeping this topic area under control not only limits enforcement activities to a relatively small group of users who are experienced and confident sock hunters, but it also creates a risk (level currently unknown and possibly unknowable) that opinionated (but innocent) editors who might decide to get involved in the Cyprus topic area could be mistaken for socks and chased away from the project.
Affected articles would include Northern Cyprus, Nicosia, North Nicosia, Turkish invasion of Cyprus, Makarios III, and presumably every other article in Category:Cyprus and its subcategories.
I'm not imagining that extending discretionary sanctions to this topic area will magically make all the problems go away. However, with a subject as contentious (IMO) as Kosovo, Northern Ireland, or Barack Obama's presidential eligibility, it seems to me that adding this additional level of supervision over the Cyprus topic area can't hurt and may very possibly help. — Rich wales 06:35, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
If (per Jclemens' suggestion) we were to have a wide-ranging "disputed territories" sanctions category, one additional region to which expanded sanctions could reasonably apply would be Georgia, due to ongoing editing disputes over the disputed territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. If the blanket sanctions idea doesn't fly, I may consider requesting something for Georgia after we're done here. — Rich wales 14:40, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Commenting on Future Perfect at Sunrise's comment: While the current (and probably the main ongoing) point of irritation at Northern Cyprus has indeed been the incessant disruptive socking by Justice Forever, there have been other incidents in the past — such as some low-level edit warring and lengthy talk-page arguments revolving around at least one pro-Greek editor — activity which did a lot of simmering without really coming to a full boil, but which (IMO) could easily have escalated out of control. I didn't bring this up earlier because the worst of it ended several months ago and it didn't result in any outside intervention at the time, but if ArbCom feels this additional material should be cited in order to give a larger view of the overall situation, I can supply diffs. — Rich wales 07:36, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
While it is undeniable that Cyprus is an area for contentious claims, it is also undeniable that it is not Balkan, and extending definitions to the breaking point could mean we should add a host of such areas to that same title <g>. If ArbCom decided to, it could, by motion, add Cyprus to almost any decision, I suppose, but I question the wisdom of doing so. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 11:21, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
The scope of Wikipedia rules, including Arbcom decisions, should be dictated not by the scope of this or that geographical concept out there, but by the necessities of Wikipedia-internal situations. Given the connectedness of conflict areas and the similarity of situations, I see no problem with treating Cyprus in the same context as Greece and Turkey, of whose overall historical conflict lines the Cyprus conflict is a mere appendix. This is no different than treating Slovak or Hungarian issues under WP:ARBEE. Geographically, both countries are not in Eastern Europe either, but in Central Europe by most definitions. But what counts for us are not these geographical delimitations, but the nature of the conflicts in question. WP:ARBEE is essentially for post-Soviet-era and post-WWII ethnic conflicts; WP:ARBMAC is essentially for post-Ottoman ethnic conflicts. As such, Cyprus falls naturally under the latter, if we want it to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
There are two reasons that I see why Cyprus should be included in the Balkans and the WP:ARBMAC discretionary sanctions: 1) The conflicting parties in Cyprus are Greece and Turkey, which are both also involved in Balkan disputes, and 2) many of the same editors who were active in the Macedonian decision, especially from the Greek perspective, are also involved in issues surrounding Cyprus. Dealing with the same group of editors in a similar conflict area argues for inclusion in the WP:ARBMAC discretionary world. (But I hasten to note that the Greek-oriented editors actively involved at Northern Cyprus, for example, are not the source of the typical problems at that page.) -- Taivo ( talk) 22:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
To SilkTork, Risker and all the rest saying we need an actual case before discretionary sanctions: You do realize this is exactly why editors like me would rather have our toenails pulled out than get involved in dealing with nationalist troll-infested areas? When it comes to an actual case, while the nationalists may get banned, you will also be desysopped. You guys taught me a lesson in ArbMac2: get involved in a nationalist dispute that makes it to ArbCom and you are at risk of desysopping, and I've learnt it well and not gotten involved in any more. Plenty of nationalistic areas of Wikipedia may have gone to hell because of the people you've driven away, but who gives a crap? Procedure's been followed! Yay us! Heimstern Läufer (talk) 16:24, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I firmly agree that there is a "Cyprus problem" in the same way that there is a "Macedonia problem", a "Kosovo problem", and so on - many of those problems are currently under the ARBMAC umbrella. Cyprus-related articles get exactly the same kind of problematic editing. However, looking at it from other angles, the problem is different (different articles are a battleground, different sources are used/abused, &c and most problematic editors are more focussed than Justice Forever). Roberts once wrote something clever about how several seemingly-separate national conflicts are arguably just fights over different parts of the Ottoman succession; I'd include Cyprus in that. ARBMAC is focussed on the problematic editing rather than on the other angles so in that sense it's sensible to stretch it a little and I strongly support RichWales' proposal. However, I would also be happy with responding under a different banner if other editors are unhappy with the geographical shift - as long as we can improve how we deal with the nationalist editwarring and pov-pushing, I'm happy. Sorry for the belated response; I realise it's probably a moot point by now. bobrayner ( talk) 13:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
For the purposes of enforcement action under this case, the discretionary sanctions shall apply to the Balkans, Turkey, Cyprus, and the generally unrecognized state of Northern Cyprus, all broadly construed.
For this motion, there are 13 active non-recused arbitrators, so 7 votes are a majority.
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 55 | ← | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 | Archive 63 | → | Archive 65 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Lyncs ( talk) at 17:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Suspension of site ban: User:Justanother / User:Justallofthem
Your indefinite site ban is suspended subject to your unconditional acceptance of and compliance with the following restrictions:
Single account limitation
You may edit from one account only - currently Lyncs (talk · contribs) - with no exceptions for whatever reason. You may rename that account provided (i) you immediately notify the committee of the rename; (ii) the redirects from the prior account name remain in place; and (iii) you display a link to the previous account name on your user page.
Interaction ban Cirt
i) You may neither communicate with nor comment upon or make reference to either directly or indirectly to User:Cirt or their contributions on any page in the English Wikipedia. You may not edit Cirt's talk or user pages though you may, within reason, comment within other pages providing your comments do not relate directly or indirectly to Cirt or their edits. The sole exception to the interaction ban is that you may respond civilly on matters explicitly pertaining to you raised by Cirt or any other editor in any dispute resolution or enforcement context.
ii) Should you violate the letter or spirit of the restrictions above, you may be blocked without prior warning via the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard: on the first occasion for up to one week; on the second occasion for up to one month; and on the third occasion for up to three months. Appeal of any blocks is to the Arbitration Committee.
Topic banned from Scientology
You are indefinitely topic-banned from Scientology on the standard terms outlined here.
For the Arbitration Committee, Roger talk 13:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I was conditionally reinstated well over one year ago with the comment at the time that I could ask to have the restrictions lifted following some period of good behavior. I believe that statement was in an email from an arbitrator and can try to find it if needed.
It is now well over one year and I think that I have evidenced my good behavior and good intentions. I do not edit all that much but might edit more in the future. I would prefer to 1) have access to a subject, Scientology, that I am extremely conversant with and 2) not have any live mines that I might inadvertently step onto vis-a-vis interaction bans or the like.
It is not my intention to interact with Cirt and it is currently not my intention to edit Scientology articles but I do not think there is any need to bar me from either at this point. If I do edit in Scientology (which could happen) or interact with Cirt (which is unlikely), I would still be bound by the rules and norms of Wikipedia with the added factor that I will be subject to certain scrutiny so I think it is not inappropiate to grant this request. Thank you.
1. Response to Newyorkbrad: Lifting the one account restriction is the least of my concerns and if that is a deciding factor or a factor of concern then I have no problem continuing editing solely from this account. -- Lyncs ( talk) 12:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
2. Response to AGK: I could make argument on the merits of the original sanctions and possible injustices but I am not interesting in rehashing that nor, I imagine, is the committee. The fact that I have been back for well over one year and have not had any problems is indicative of the fact that I am not into causing problems. That is an important point. Troublemakers cause trouble. They do not stop because they are now excluded from one area or another. They make trouble where they are. That is not what I am about.
On second thought, I will say one thing of a general nature related to my sanctions. When I started editing here, I edited the Scientology articles as that was something I had been involved with for many years. If you are familiar with that territory prior to the arbitration, the Scientology articles were a battleground of anti-Scientology zealots warring with Scientology zealots with the antis well in control of the situation. But it was noisy nonetheless. I arrived as a non-zealot Scientologist just trying to add some balance and the benefit of my knowledge. While there were and are plenty of non-zealot folks that do not think highly of Scientology, few seemed to accept that there could be a Scientologist that was a not a zealot. To most, especially the antis, all Scientologists were programmed, brainwashed, and agents of the evil OSA. But that is how zealots see things. I made many thousands of edits. My edits were never much of an issue. What was the issue was that I screamed pretty loudly when getting stuck with pins. I think that the project is wiser now on the subject of Scientology. I hope it is wiser on the subject of wiki-bullying in general.
I could discretely canvass my wiki-friends and ask them to speak for me but I am not going to do that. They are, of course, welcome to speak on my behalf if they care to; I am just not going around asking anyone to do so.
I think the fact that no-one feels strongly enough about my request to come over here and object says something also. I think the fact that it is so quiet here speaks for my request, not against it.
In other words, I present the case that my request is almost a non-issue and I am simply looking for the sanctions to be lifted as "time served" with a warning to watch my step in the future or as appropriate. -- Lyncs ( talk) 00:55, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
3. Response to Roger Davies: All due respect, but I am not sure what more persuasive argument I can make regarding the two and third issues.
I think the fact that three years have elapsed since the end of the Scientology case and I have had next to zero interaction with Cirt and exhibited zero inclination to harass him in any manner should, IMO, be all the argument I need make. What more can I say? I have already stated that "it is not my intention to interact with Cirt". It is not my intention to interact with Cirt and certainly not my intention to cause him grief. I just do not feel that, based on my evidenced lack of intention to harass him, I need have concern about violating a sanction were our paths to cross in some innocuous fashion. Let me put it a bit more strongly; it is my intention to avoid crossing paths with Cirt where possible and to keep things civil if circumstance puts us on the same page.
Regarding the one account restriction, as I state above, that one I can live with but, again based on good behavior, I also would be fine with having it lifted and simply being reinstated in full. -- Lyncs ( talk) 16:10, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
4. Response to "Statement by Cirt": I think it is appropriate to respond to Cirt's points seeing as he posted them as arguments against my request. If the committee feels this is not appropriate then this edit can be undone. I do not think that his arguments against my request are compelling as outlined below:
Thank you. -- Lyncs ( talk) 23:47, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I took a quick look at Lyncs' 100 most recent article space edits. The edits seem to be fine, but they go back quite far (Aug 2011) and aren't incredibly substantial so there isn't a lot of history to examine. NW ( Talk) 03:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I've been informed by Arbitration Clerk AlexandrDmitri that I may respond to this request, diff.
I have to strongly oppose this request by Lyncs ( talk · contribs), for several reasons.
Thank you for your time, — Cirt ( talk) 14:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I count as a friend of Lyncs' (Justanother), which should be kept in mind when reading the following. But I guess not many people remember this stuff, so after some hesitation I decided to weigh in all the same.
Lyncs doesn't edit much, no. It's chilling to be under restrictions that express so much distrust in one's good will. His continued interest in Wikipedia is evidenced by his remaining a gnomish editor throughout this long period. To me it seems reasonable to believe him when he states that he doesn't harbour any intentions to interact with Cirt or — at present — to edit Scientology articles. I'd be really, really surprised if he even wanted to have anything to do with Cirt. This is not the place to criticise Cirt, but since the 2011 ArbCom desysopped him, the long-time campaign of his protector (who has left Wikipedia, so there's no reason to name her here) to discredit Justanother as an evil machiavellian harasser of the paragon Cirt has perhaps lost some credibility. This ANI thread from 2008, an attempt to get Justanother community banned, is a particularly egregious example. I'm happy to note that the community ban process has been cleaned up some since then. (My criticism of how it worked on this occasion is here, right at the end, in case you can't face reading the whole. It's a very colourful thread, though, especially the.. uh.. different culture evinced in the input from the two Wikinews editors.)
If Lyncs should return to Scientology on a large scale, and/or in a questionable manner, it would surely be easy to reinstate the restrictions. I suggest all the restrictions be removed (unless everybody including Lyncs is happy with the restriction to one account), perhaps with phrasing that provides for quick and simple reinstatement of them, if required. Bishonen | talk 15:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC).
With respect to Bishonen above, the topical and interpersonal disputes are in a separate league to the issue of inappropriate use of multiple accounts - the Community has always (to this day) expressed strong views on this issue, given how serious a breach of trust it is. A relevant question, I think, is what caused or tempted the user to the inappropriate use of multiple accounts - did it start off during a dispute in the topic (or with Cirt), did it start off as a matter of generality, or was it well-intentioned conduct that was inadvertantly disruptive (which has now been clarified and remedied)? Unless it is the latter, or this is a case where a single account restriction was completely unwarranted, I would not be comfortable with lending support to the removal of a single account restriction (even with a discretionary sanctions regime). If it did start off during a dispute in a topic or with an user, and that user has subsequently demonstrated there are no issues with his editing in that topic or with that user, then I would agree about the chilling effect - but we are not even at that point yet. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not at all sure why anyone thinks there's a need to remove the interaction ban. That seems to be doing its job quite well, and we have no evidence here that the user's behavior has improved in any substantial way. Even more strongly, I see no reason to remove the ban on scientology edits. We're dealing with someone who made a single purpose account to POV push and launch a "campaign"(ArbCom's word) against Cirt. [3] (I strongly suggest that people review that finding of fact and the evidence in the case). That was the finding of fact. So far, we've seen no reason to think that the user even is willing to say that maybe his actions were wrong or against policy. We have no reason to think he isn't going to go back to his usual disruption of Scientology articles. By all means let him edit, and let him do so far away from Cirt and far away from Scientology. JoshuaZ ( talk) 16:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
For reference, the current restrictions on Lyncs ( talk · contribs) (who previously edited as Justanother ( talk · contribs) and Justallofthem ( talk · contribs)) are:
Your indefinite site ban is suspended subject to your unconditional acceptance of and compliance with the following restrictions:
Single account limitation
You may edit from one account only - currently Lyncs ( talk · contribs) - with no exceptions for whatever reason. You may rename that account provided (i) you immediately notify the committee of the rename; (ii) the redirects from the prior account name remain in place; and (iii) you display a link to the previous account name on your user page.
i) You may neither communicate with nor comment upon or make reference to either directly or indirectly to User:Cirt or their contributions on any page in the English Wikipedia. You may not edit Cirt's talk or user pages though you may, within reason, comment within other pages providing your comments do not relate directly or indirectly to Cirt or their edits. The sole exception to the interaction ban is that you may respond civilly on matters explicitly pertaining to you raised by Cirt or any other editor in any dispute resolution or enforcement context.
ii) Should you violate the letter or spirit of the restrictions above, you may be blocked without prior warning via the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard: on the first occasion for up to one week; on the second occasion for up to one month; and on the third occasion for up to three months. Appeal of any blocks is to the Arbitration Committee.
You are indefinitely topic-banned from Scientology on the standard terms outlined here.
Proposed:
Proposed:
Proposed:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Case link: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images
Initiated by Anthonyhcole ( talk) at 06:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Since the closure of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images, where I was heavily involved as a party and not mentioned or sanctioned in the conclusions, and the subsequent Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Muhammad images I've edited Muhammad a few times:
and been engaged in significant constructive discussion on the talk page:
A couple of weeks ago I attempted to begin a discussion about image curation on the sub-page Talk:Muhammad/images#Query but dropped it when no one took it up. I was however advised by seven editors that I may not discuss that topic. This was not my reading of the arbitration conclusion.
A couple of days ago at Talk:Muhammad#Edit_request_on_15_June_2012 a new editor requested that pictures of Muhammad be removed from the article. Four editors responded:
- Mdann52: Please address your issues at Talk:Muhammad/Images
- Veritycheck: I'm sorry, unfortunately the Wikipedia community has decided that there is a consensus to keep pictures of Muhammad in the article. Apologies on my behalf and the other editors here who disagreed with the decision.
- Tarc: Yes, WP:NOTCENSORED is the applicable policy here. Thank you for your concern.
- Anthonyhcole: That policy, WP:NOTCENSORED, explains why Wikipedia doesn't have to remove those images, Huzaifah but I can't point you to a policy that says we have to include them, because there is no such policy. It is our free choice to include them or not in the article. We have a right to but no obligation. Unfortunately, Wikipedia's official stance toward you is that we don't care that it offends you. Even though most of the figurative depictions of the prophet (pbuh) in this article add nothing to the reader's understanding of his life, we have decided to include them, because we like to. No other valid reason. Despite the vast majority of us knowing that you'll be disaffected by them, and knowing that we can't tell you one thing that they add to the reader's understanding of the life of the prophet (pbuh), we want to, so we do, and we don't care that you're offended. That is, we don't care enough to remove these totally gratuitous images. On behalf of Wikipedia, I'd like to say sorry, but I can't because we're (as a community) not.
Tarc disagreed with my clarification of the situation for the new editor and threatened me with arbitration enforcement if I didn't strike or remove it at User_talk:Anthonyhcole#possible_AE_filing.
Could the committee please clarify for me whether there is a ban in place on discussing the curation of figurative depictions of Muhammad? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 06:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@Singularity. I can't trust you because I don't have a clue who you are. Have we ever edited the same page before this? I had you, and not only you, in mind when I used "most" rather than "all" in "...most are bitterly opposed to my view. Most of them have been attacking me..." Please don't be offended. I assume the arbitrators will be able to clarify this for me. I can't assume that about you. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 16:59, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@Mathsci, you accuse me of disrupting to make a point, a very serious charge, and cite (a) me removing an image of Muhammad from the article that had been added shortly beforehand without discussion, the removal of which everybody on the talk page has agreed was appropriate, and (b) my insertion of an image of Mahatma Gandhi to illustrate a large quote from Gandhi, which most editors agree was reasonable (though most disagree with the choice). Would you please withdraw the disruption assertion? This kind of mud sticks. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 20:53, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@Arbitrators. Mathsci is deliberately misleading you here. A few days ago I saw a figurative depiction of Muhammad going into the article without discussion, and accidentally removed the wrong image, which I restored 3 minutes later when I removed the correct image. Nomoskedasticity noticed the image removal today and, thinking I was being a dick deleting a long-standing image, restored it. After a little confusion, this was sorted out on the talk page at Talk:Muhammad/images#Image_removal and the thread was closed at 10:54. At 11:12 Mathsci said here "(Anthony's) edits currently give the appearance of disrupting wikipedia to make a point. Without seeking prior consensus, he removed this image of Muhammad [11] from the Islamic depictions section; he then attempted to remove another image [12] while accidentally (?) restoring the first removal." That is, 18 minutes after the talk page discussion closed, and we're all agreed I did the right thing in deleting the image but my edit summaries should have been clearer, and Nomo could have been more careful, and I've explained to everyone that the first image deletion was a mistake quickly corrected (obviously so, if you just look at the page history) Mathsci, seeing that on the surfaace my behaviour there could appear to be disruptive, knowing that it wasn't, but had the appearance of disruption, especially with his false and deceitful description, presented it to you as evidence for my disruptive behaviour. You're being conned.
This has nothing to do with this page, really. But am I meant to just let this stuff sit here? I'd actually appreciate it if an arb or clerk would delete all of the ad hominem, just leaving the question, what is and is not appropriate for discussion on Talk:Muhammad/images, but I guess that's not going to happen. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 22:17, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm unfamiliar with the protocols of this page but, if we're done, thank you. I'll try to avoid any behaviours that can reasonably be interpreted by an intelligent informed observer as disruptive. Since no one has taken up my offer to discuss the replacement of figurative depictions of Muhammad with equally valuable other types of image, the question at the heart of this thread is moot.
Just an observation, for what it's worth. When I entered this debate, the very notion that we, Wikipedia, should take account of the offense we may cause our readers was a taboo topic. The fundamentalist WP:NOTCENSORED cult, was strident and domineering, and was deferred to by the majority who didn't challenge their orthodoxy. The Foundation resolution on controversial images gave moral strength to now-banned Ludwigs2, now-retired Hans Adler, myself and others to stand up to the essential foolishness of the doctrine "we don't care about offense." Over that six months or so, I've seen more and more highly respected editors questioning the absolute supremacy of our right to offend.
Obviously, this autistic/psychopathic orientation toward our readers (and subjects, and often each other) is a long way from being resolved, but a change is afoot. I urge you to weigh our commitment to respect for our readers, subjects and peers against our commitment to openness in all of your dealings here.
When you banned Ludwigs2 and chastised Hans Adler, leading to his departure from the project, I felt betrayed and demoralised; so much so that I essentially abandoned the RfC on Muhammad images - both the discussion around its design and the RfC itself. I now believe I let the project down there. There should have been someone with the necessary corporate memory from my side of the debate involved there, but I just couldn't bring myself to it. It breaks my heart now to look over that RfC at the arrant shallow nonsense its findings were founded on. I have been wagging the tail of that debate a bit, and I apologise for that.
The blind right to offend has won in this case, and it's won by the very tactics I laid out for you above in Mathsci's lies about my motivations. Those tactics are all over Talk:Muhammad/images and the Arbitration evidence and workshop talk pages. They work because their authors fill such pages with such walls of text that no volunteer can reasonably be expected to grasp any more than a sense from them, a sense not justified by close scrutiny.
The only way around that tactic, that I can see, is fierce curation of all arbitration and admin pages for relevance and civility. This page is a disgrace in that respect. I do appreciate the work you all do, and suggest this not as a criticism but as a way to maximise the effectiveness of your precious time here. Efforts are being made at the Fae case, and I applaud that. Please don't be discouraged by criticisms, practice makes perfect. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 07:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken. I do not dispute the legitimacy of the committee's conclusions or the findings of the RfC triumvirate. In fact I am on record twice congratulating the latter on the excellent job they made of an extremely taxing task, and nothing I've said here indicates that I intend to continue arguing my position ad nauseam. As far as bald faced kicks in the groin to the community go, I'll continue to speak my mind on the project's dysfunctional stance towards offensive behaviour.
@PhilKnight. Autism is a disorder that features among other traits diminished ability to appreciate offensive behaviour. Autists frequently say the most appalling things and fail to recognise, at least in the usual immediate feeling way that normal people do, the offense, or the magnitude of the offense they cause. This is considered by most people to be a seriously socially disabling impairment. Psychopaths can usually recognise when they're offending others but, lacking empathy, don't care. This project, at least until recently proudly chanted the mantra, "we don't care if we offend our readers." I believe WP:NOTCENSORED still essentially says that. (I can't bear to read that document again.) That is, a large number of vocal Wikimedians proudly assume a stance toward our readers and subjects that socially functional people consider to be both detrimental to social integration and anti-social.
I've discussed this elsewhere, so one or two of your colleagues will have known what I was alluding to with "autistic/psychopathic." It's not a throw-away slur; it's a deeply- and long-considered critique of this project. I apologise for not taking the trouble to elaborate earlier. That was thoughtless of me. But, that said, everyone is entitled to their view and if you believe I pose a threat to the project I invite you to act according to your best lights. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 16:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Tarc knows that I believe you don't have to be mentally ill to go along with this crazy perspective, you just need to be persuaded it's sensible. Despite this, below he says that I dismiss those who support the principle of WP:NOTCENSORED as a bunch of feeble-minded autistics. He's doing what Mathsci did, taking something a bit complicated, that superficially looks bad for me and, knowing that the truth differs from the superficial appearance, nevertheless purveys the superficial version because it looks right on a superficial reading, and realistically, very few readers are going to grasp the more subtle explanation.
I am getting so tired of this. I came here for help in understanding my obligations with regard to Talk:Muhammad/images. Feel free to initiate whatever action you believe is appropriate but do it in an appropriate forum. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 18:27, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
@SilkTork, you assert that I am disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. I refute that. What do you base that on? I have asked Jimbo's opinion of the outcome of the Muhammad images business, tried to initiate a discussion on the curation of images at Talk:Muhammad/images, with no takers, so I dropped it, explained the situation wrt figurative depictions of Muhammad to a new editor, come here asking for guidance regarding the implications of the arbitration result for the discussion of image curation at Talk:Muhammad/images, and, while here, have recommended that you exert some discipline over the pages you control. If I've missed something, please tell me.
Is it disruptive to do those things? If so, how?
You assert that I am making comments that are intended to stir up discontent. I'm not doing that. Obviously some of what I say displeases some editors but that's an unintended byproduct. The intention of each of the abovementioned actions is as stated.You offend me by your assumption of bad faith there.
You say, "when a decision is made that we disagree with, we accept it and move on". I have come here to find out what that means. Does that mean that we're not permitted to discuss the curation of figurative depictions of Muhammad at Talk:Muhammad/images? If I read them correctly, at least one of your colleagues seems to think we are permitted. If that is so, what have I done wrong, exactly? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 14:35, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
@AGK and NewYorkBrad, thank you. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 20:55, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Article talk pages are to be used for discussion on how to edit/improve the article. Anthony wants to discuss Muhammad images without any intention to improve the article. This becomes clear in this section, in particular when he says So, just to be clear, I won't be proposing that an edit actually be made to the article". It is also clear in the sardonic and tendentious way he addresses other editors. Anthony's desire to discuss Muhammad images should be satisfied at some other location -- his own talk page, perhaps. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 07:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I have Muhammad on my watchlist and edited it and its talk page just prior to the edit from an account (not yet auto-confirmed) requesting the removal of all images. Requests (or demands) like that occur periodically. Anthonyhcole's reply to that request is posted above. It reflects his personal point of view and not the consensus summarised by the three administrators who closed the RfC set up as a result of the Muhammad images case. As indicated by Future Perfect at Sunrise, one of the administrators involved at WP:AE, if Anthonyhcole intends to reply similarly to future requests of that kind on what he terms "curation of images", he should probably restrict such statements to user talk pages. [13] My understanding is that the results of that RfC were intended to be considered as binding and not to be the subject of future discussion. Mathsci ( talk) 08:46, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@RogerDavies: Anthonycole is not doing what you are talking about. He's talking about raising, once again, the general issue of whether any images that depict the body/form of Muhammad are educational in value. He wants to reargue the RfC. He explicitly stated that he is not proposing discussion of specific images, but rather talking in general. This is not collegial editing. Note that I even agree with much, though not all, of Anthonycole's position...but the RfC results were clear, and I accept that. Qwyrxian ( talk) 10:38, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I was on the verge of filing an Arb Enforcement over this junk, but was advised that Anthony's actions may not be quite to the level of the discretionary sanctions. IMO they are verging on the vexatious and the pointy, particularly the response to that edit request. Pardon my French, but that response was one big fuck-you to the (sizable) majority at the RfC that found the article as it exists now conforms with the principles of the Wikipedia project.
As for "image curation", this line from Anthony's comment above
"I'm hoping to discuss on Talk:Muhammad/images whether, in principle, some of the figurative depictions of Muhammad could be replaced by images that are as attractive and relevant, but don't depict Muhammad."
says it all. How on earth can anyone think that they can reopen the same freakin argument that the RfC decided? The depictions of Muhammad presently in the article are set in stone for the forseeable future. I believe that is the interpretation that most have taken away from the RfC once it closed.
Apologies to Roger, but IMO there is no such thing as "routine replacement or updating of images" on this particular article. This is a landmine every time someone tries and it should just be left alone for a good while. Tarc ( talk) 14:31, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@note: IMO Anthonycole is insulting those who support the principle of WP:NOTCENSORED, e.g. the "diminished ability to appreciate offensive behaviour" line. Time and time again it has been explained that disagreeing with Anthony on how to deal with offensiveness is not the same as lacking the ability to recognize it. Tarc ( talk) 17:41, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
I think it's abundantly clear that Anthonyhcole's intent is to continue to discuss this until he achieves a result he agrees with. That kind of thinking is precisely why the case went to Arbcom and ultimately to an RFC. His perspective failed to achieve consensus, as did my diametrically opposed view. That doesn't matter. It's time for us all to be quiet now. At the very least, a "clarification" to Anthony that it's time to be quiet and time to stop changing the images is in order. If clarification isn't sufficient, a formal topic ban would be the next step.— Kww( talk) 14:05, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
Echoing Tarc and Kww. Related to the quote of Anthony's that Tarc posted above, Anthony now seems intent on discussing the merits of adding an image of Mahatma Gandhi to this article, simply because a Gandhi quote is contained. Obvious reason is obvious: The more irrelevant or tangental (and that is charitable int his case) images he stuffs onto an article about Muhammad, the fewer relevant images directly related to the article subject can be placed. He also chose to complain at Jimbo's talk page about how the RfC went against his position in a bid to start yet another an argument over the exact same things that were consistently rejected over the course of months of discussion, multiple RFCs and the previous arbitration case. It becomes obvious that Anthony will not voluntarily drop the stick, and that he will continue to waste everyone's time until he either gets his way or is forced out of the topic area. Reso lute 15:39, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I guess I was notified about this Request for Clarification because of this edit I made, where I (correctly, IMO) quoted WP:TALKEDABOUTIT to indicate that it may be considered disruptive to bring up a subject again so soon after consensus was determined. Generally, though, I haven't participated too much on the discussion on Talk:Muhammad and Talk:Muhammad/images, although both are on my watchlist.
That being said, from watching those pages I have made a few observations. Specifically, in relation to this Request for Clarification, I have observed the following recent behaviour from Anthonyhcole on the related talk pages:
In relation to the first issue, I believe WP:TALKEDABOUTIT is the applicable policy. The community had a very heated debate at the RFC, with many different proposals introduced and discussed. Ultimately, a consensus was determined on May 28th. Less than one week later, and Anthonyhcole was trying to debate the issue again. He says that he was just having a conversation, and other editors are free to ignore him, but that makes no sense. The image talk page is to discuss how to improve the Muhammad article, specifically in relation to the images. It is not a forum or a place to have non-specific conversations. If Anthonyhcole is not interested in re-determining the consensus, than why initiate the conversation? If he is trying to re-determine the consensus, than I think some time should be waited until after the RFC (i.e. not a few days).
In relation to the second issue, I have no problem with Anthonyhcole (or any editor for that matter) telling a new editor that they sympathize with the new editor's request to remove the images, but that the consensus is to keep them. Where I and other editors take issue is when Anthonyhcole posts a comment like this (which Anthonyhcole quoted in his statement at the top). What ends up happenening is that Anthonyhcole claims to speak on behalf of a consensus he does not agree with and then assigns that consensus with untrue motives and intentions:
When called out on these types of comments, Anthonyhcole's repeated claim is that his is just having a conversation, and we don't have to participate if we don't want to. Its this type of passive-aggresive comments that are keeping all of the other editors frustrated. Singularity42 ( talk) 15:53, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
@ Anthonyhclole:
Wow, Anthonyhcole really wants to get topic-banned. I hope somebody obliges him soon.— Chowbok ☠ 17:00, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
This statment by Anthonyhcole, above, is significant:
When you banned Ludwigs2 and chastised Hans Adler, leading to his departure from the project, I felt betrayed and demoralised; so much so that I essentially abandoned the RfC on Muhammad images - both the discussion around its design and the RfC itself. I now believe I let the project down there. There should have been someone with the necessary corporate memory from my side of the debate involved there, but I just couldn't bring myself to it. It breaks my heart now to look over that RfC at the arrant shallow nonsense its findings were founded on. I have been wagging the tail of that debate a bit, and I apologise for that.
In this statement the committee can see that it is Anthonyhcole's position that the results of the RfC are not legitimate -- both because he did not participate, and because it did not return the outcome he desired -- and that he intends to re-litigate it ad nauseum until he gets the results he wants. This kind of bald-faced kick-in-the-groin to the community cannot stand, and should not be allowed to go un-sanctioned, lest this issue fester forever. Many people disagreed with the results of the RfC, to one extent or another, but are willing to compromise and accept the results for the sake of collegiality and community harmony. One person's intransigence cannot be allowed to continue to disrupt the peace, when so many others have suppressed their own disagreements in the face of a community-wide decision. (There can be no legitimate argument that this particular RfC did not represent the entire diversity of community opinions.)
The committee needs to take heed of WP:BURO and deal with this case as if were an instance of an AE filing. I know of no reason why the committee, administrators all, cannot enforce their own rulings. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 10:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Andries Andries ( talk) at 21:20, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request: No users except me.
Request to re-edit Sathya Sai Baba movement. I lost to a great extent interest in the subject and have little time. But I still have a lot of good sources on the subject on the shelf. I bought them because they were recommended in arbcom case Sathya Sai Baba 1. What a waste when they are on my book shelf and only very few people have access to the contents. The article was never controversial, unlike Sathya Sai Baba. But after I stopped editing the Sathya Sai Central Trust, an organization that is part of the movement, has received much criticism. I was the only substantial contributor. I promise that I will revert max. once per month. I will not get involved in lengthy discussions or dispute resolution, because I do not have time. Andries ( talk) 21:20, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Andries ( talk) 21:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nobody Ent at 12:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Since being topic banned from the Rfa talk page MF has periodically used the comments sections to aggressively engage other commenters; the most current example has resulted in Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Malleus_Fatuorum; A civil request to correct an edit of another editors signature [18] escalated unnecessarily [19]. Additional examples of comments not related to the candidate [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] Nobody Ent 8:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
ArbCom previously found ...his comments are derisive and belittling. The volume and consistency of his participation has affected the quality of discourse on the page.
The signature incident and reaction following were ridiculous. Fram should have simply fixed the signature glitch when they saw it, and Malleus should have looked at the diff provided and fixed it when it was pointed out. The resultant ANI thread turned out to be vehement, emotional, and unproductive. This suggests the situation described by Risker last December -- simply too divisive to continue as is -- remains essentially unchanged.
As a remedy to its prior finding, the committee topic banned Malleus from WT:RFA while explicitly " explicitly does not prevent him from !voting on RFA's."
Had the signature glitch occurred in the context of reasonable discussion, it most likely would have been dealt with appropriately. In fact, it occurred in the context of not of discussion of the merits of Ryan Vesey as a potential administrator, but rather following a demeaning statement regarding another editor Actually what's clear is that you have no idea what you're talking about, and are incapable of independent thought. To reduce the likelihood of future disruption, I'm suggesting the committee logically extend its current restriction of Malleus from the WT:RFA space to the WP:RFA space; specifically, that he limit he comments to the merits of the candidate rather than characterizations of the other participants in the discussion. Such characterizations:
I further suggest wording to the effect of Unnecessary comments in RFA discussions belittling Malleus Fatuorum may be removed by any administrator to minimize the probability of ongoing baiting.
All this is excessive nannyism and should not be necessary but evidence suggests that something is. Editors should interact with each other in a respectful and civil manner. is supposed to be a core Wikipedia policy. Nobody Ent 10:57, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The discussion of the WP:FRINGE guideline was germane to a question asked of the candidate. While ascertaining whether the questioner (as opposed to the candidate) fully understood the policy is a slight veer off-topic, it is far less off-topic than discussions in almost every other RfA. Plus it was interesting. A kerfuffle arose which had nothing to do with whether MF was discussing the candidate or someone else. If the Committee wants to rule that no one can ever engage in off-topic discussions, I have a tide I'd like them to order rolled back. If the committee entertains the notion that a specific editor should have the unique prohibition of staying narrowly on-topic, I think we need a far better argument than noting that a technical glitch turned into some harsh words elsewhere.-- SPhilbrick (Talk) 15:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I was one of the editors who offered evidence for this sanction
in the first place. Since it has been enacted, I have found that it is not fit for purpose. Specifically, it can be used to silence Malleus Fatuorum by moving discussions on a vote to the talk page - so long discussions sometimes remain on the RfA. The focus should be at
WT:RfA specifically, which is where (in my opinion) the disruption occurred, not the subpages. I should also note that no uninvolved administrator has yet topic banned Malleus from a specific RfA (to the best of my knowledge). I would propose shortening the remedy to
Malleus Fatuorum is indefinitely topic banned from Wikipedia talk:Requests for Adminship.
I do not see the rest of the remedy as useful.
WormTT(
talk) 15:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
As said on ANI, this was a case of Mally being baited by Fram.
I wanted to comment on this diff, that User:Br'er Rabbit brought above. I've had to fix a lot of edit conflict messes from other editors, as they generally result in text getting inserted into the header of a page. I've never seen anything end up erroneously within another person's comment. I accept Malleus' eventual explanation that this was indeed a technical error, but I don't think there was reason to assume anything either way when Fram contacted Malleus. My first thought on seeing an edit like Malleus' would have indeed been to see how the editor would explain it when confronted. Fram presented the matter without any accusatory demeanor, but simply asked that the edit be corrected. There was no baiting. Malleus nevertheless chose not to explain anything until the matter was brought to ANI, and instead responded with stonewalling and insults until then. Equazcion (talk) 18:37, 4 Jul 2012 (UTC)
@Parrot of Doom: I'll make you a deal: If consensus is that that comment of mine you linked to is indeed on the level of Malleus' behavior, I'll gun for an indefinite block for both Malleus and myself. Equazcion (talk) 21:12, 4 Jul 2012 (UTC)
@Volunteer Marek: If mirroring sanctions on another person from the other side should somehow make enacting them on Malleus easier, I hereby volunteer. I'd take a three-month ban, so long as Malleus gets it too. I'll gladly give up three months of my wiki-life to give three months of reprieve to the rest of Wikipedia from Malleus' vitriol. Yeah yeah, content creation, but I actually think maintaining the right environment is more important than retaining one good content creator. The former has the potential to retain more content creators and general positive contributions. Or you can ban us both from all corners of RfA, though admittedly I tend to stay away from there on my own already. Equazcion (talk) 18:54, 5 Jul 2012 (UTC)
@Ched: If it could be said that every time Malleus calls someone a twat it's because someone else prodded him into it, then this has happened enough times that we can say Malleus is far too easily prodded. It takes two to tango. Being prodded, if it has happened (and I'm definitely not saying it has), is not an excuse for the type of behavior Malleus exhibits. I get prodded all the time, as do others, and none of us react that way. We're under the impression that we're expected to control ourselves and not fly off the handle whenever an excuse comes along. Either we're all mistaken and are actually welcome to act like children when someone presents the opportunity, or we're not and Malleus needs a clear and broad edict to shape up or suffer a lasting consequence. Equazcion (talk) 00:02, 6 Jul 2012 (UTC)
@Pesky: Calling the other side the "out-to-get-Malleus brigade," in same post where you say you're sick of polarizing name-calling from us such as "fan club," etc, is pretty vexing. And in response to this exchange:
Malleus either actually needs to understand civility, or he needs further restrictions. As someone who regularly uses bad language (when appropriate) I find it increasingly difficult to understand why Malleus' behaviour hasn't started to improve to a level where we don't have to have an ANI thread about him every five minutes. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 18:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Lets also be clear that the diffs recently presented on ANI ( [26] [27]) aren't exactly borderline incivility. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 18:54, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
This was all precipitated by Malleus's argument with IRWolfie, specifically this response which not only suggested that IRWolfie should re-read the Earth article, but also managed to insert "In the past there were varying levels of belief in a flat Earth" in the middle of IRWolfie's sig in the previous comment. Now nobody is going to convince anybody that that is anything other than a glitch. In fact, reading on, Malleus clearly didn't even realise it had happened. It just isn't the sort of thing Malleus does. At that point I have no idea why on earth common sense didn't prevail and somebody simply didn't remove the sentence from the middle of IRWolfie's sig.
Even if we allow that Malleus needed to know it had happened, surely the way to approach it would be to ask him on his talk page why – or if he knew that – he had inserted a sentence in the middle of IRWolfie's sig? Once somebody goes to his page and takes this approach, with an assumption of the editing being "intentional", we know that common sense has been ditched again, and this is a trawling expedition expecting Malleus to respond sharply. Congratulations, he did. Why does anybody waste their time on moah dramah like this? Sometimes I despair for this project. -- RexxS ( talk) 19:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Here is the sequence of events for the current incident: I am an FTN regular and so I wished to determine how familiar with fringe guidelines the candidate was (I like to consider I am relatively familiar with them as I look at them and the related WP:NPOV often). The candidate answered the question, (whilst noting that he was not very familiar with them) and I was not entirely satisfied with the answer and I provided my reasoning whilst voting neutral. A simple two comment discussion between me and malleus about whether his answer was right or wrong resulted in this comment out of the blue: [28]. When I pointed out the example I gave was is in WP:UNDUE I got this hostile reply: [29]. This reply also changed my signature, presumably by accident and I fixed my signature here [30], and then went to his talk page to leave a comment on being WP:UNCIVIL, I noticed a thread related to my sig and commented there instead noting I had fixed it User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum#Editing_someone_else.27s_comment. After noting his incivility, I had this directed at me: "Just remind me, why should I give a fuck about what you think about anything?" directed at me so I posted to ANI (the notification of which resulted in [31]). As I noted at ANI, changing my sig by accident isn't the issue here, it's the insults etc [32].
To my knowledge I have not interacted with this editor before this incident: [33]. IRWolfie- ( talk) 09:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
@Boing! said Zebedee. It is not the same as poking a bear, At a normal discussion about policy & guidelines at Requests for adminship (related to an answer given by the nominee), Malleus disagreed with my interpretation, which then resulted in this [34] and this [35], with no provocation. IRWolfie- ( talk) 14:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
@Rexxs: "Why does the community act like a huge Petri dish and grow disputes like cultures" - Because when faced with entrenched viewpoints, the community is left paralyzed, and disputes go unresolved as a result. There is no other path left but escalation. And that, alas, is the problem we have with Malleus. I won't say whether today is that day, but Arbcom is ultimately going to have to make a choice between two significantly opposed camps. The first is that Malleus' editing contributions are enough to justify overlooking his behavioural problems. The second is that his behavioural problems represent a net negative to the project that outweighs his positive editing. We can quantify Malleus' productivity as an editor, but the damage he does through his behaviour is very subjective. That is why the community can't resolve the problem he represents, and that is why it will fall to Arbcom. I would suggest that the fact that more than one editor in the ANI thread has brought up the argument that "blocking is ineffective, so why bother?" is a good indication that the damage his attitude does has surpassed the good his editing does. No editor is irreplaceable, and it is well past time for Malleus' immunity to be ended. He needs to be told to either adjust his behaviour to match expectations, or he needs to be told to leave. Reso lute 20:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I've seen MF being highly uncivil for years. I also regularly see him ignoring or arguing against well-established concepts of our
WP:NPOV policy like
WP:UNDUE and
WP:FRINGE to advance particular (and peculiar) viewpoints. I might not be the most unbiased person here (certainly not the most biased either), but MF has a very serious problem of not respecting other editors, not respecting policy he disagrees with, and acting like a bully to try to get his way. His recent personal attacks on any editor who tried to talk to him about errors he made are unacceptable, but also just his standard operating procedure here. It has to stop.(*See below.)
Someone asked what can be done about it because nothing so far has worked. The answer is simple, and the one Wikipedia has successfully used for years: increasingly lengthy blocks as the behavior continues. Some people have argued that doesn't help anything, but I would offer myself up as an example of it having worked. I tried looking for a list of my blocks by length and date but couldn't figure it out, be the short version is this: When admins could start doubling the length of my blocks, I pitched a fit, I complained about it being unfair, but, you know, after a while I had to choose whether I wanted to start acting more in line with what the community wanted so I could continue to edit here or whether I was willing to stick to my guns and get forced out. And while I'm probably always going to be a bit terse with people who aren't following policy, I'm making the effort, which is something MF cannot say. More importantly, I've not been blocked again for I don't even know how long, and any complaints have been the standard boomerang back on the person complaining situations.
Furthermore, this is what I was expected to follow, and what other editors who found themselves in similar situations had to follow, so I really do not think it's fair that MF has been allowed to not be held to the same standards.
If someone knows how to look up my block stats and wants to post them below my comments in this section as proof, and add any relevant observations, please feel free. Enforcement works, as long as it is done so consistently and fairly. DreamGuy ( talk) 21:59, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Like so many processes here, the act of "seeking justice" is more disruptive than the act itself by a full factor or more. Being someone who has been on the receiving end of Malleus's disapproval at least twice (including my own RFA) I do seem to notice a double standard here. Malleus can be blunt, and frankly foul mouthed, so can other editors who would normally be warned instead of threatened to be blocked. We can talk of histories, but at some level each instance has to stand on its own. The problem is that his reputation preceeds him and is highly overstated. When he decides to vent and be rude enough to warrant a warning, everything seems to explode into a fury of activity focused on getting him blocked. This puts Malleus on the defensive, which doesn't bring out the best of him either, and the whole event spirals further down hill and pretty soon the "discussion" is more disruptive than anything he had done to begin with. It makes it impossible for any admin to take action or for him to get a fair review, and it ends up in a dogpile at ANI or here. It is the circumstance and not solely him that brings us to that point.
It is no secret that Malleus feels slighted by the system here, and there may be some merit to his claims as we are constantly reviewing and changing at Wikipedia, and there is always room for improvement, and for whatever reason, a crowd always follows. To be blunt, Malleus can be a pain in the ass at times, but he is worthwhile editor who may use crude language on talk pages but has done nothing but good in articles. It is difficult to get an objective action when he does something trout-worthy because there are so many eyes on his every move. We should be exceedingly careful when taking action to insure it isn't punitive. We should lead by example by being as neutal, civil and understanding as we are asking him and every other community member to be. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:18, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I was scared shitless when Malleus stepped in to do the GA review of Tom Johnson (bareknuckle boxer) and, guess what, that was because I had seen so much about that negative reputation but never really had any dealings with the man. He was brilliant then, has been since and, yes, he is a real person with real feelings. I am not going to divulge personal stuff here but this man is incredibly considerate and really does empathise and hold dear his own life experiences. (I have met him once, but we barely spoke on that occasion because everyone else wanted a chat with him!). He is not some sort of "my way or the high way" automaton. While the language can be colourful, if I was subjected to the sort of ganging-up that often follows some minor disagreement or misunderstanding then I too would be telling people to piss off etc. Dammit, I must have a dozen or more quite big disagreements here every week..
What is most needed here is for the "regulars" in the umpteen debates for and against him to back off. Which is why I said nothing in the ANI thread that led to this report. - Sitush ( talk) 00:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Heh, just refreshed this preliminary to putting my thoughts together. Hi Risker! :) May take a while, but on the way... Franamax ( talk) 01:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I feel the one comment made to Wolfe was a typical case of someone getting a bit too frustrated when engaging in a discussion. The rest appears to just be people poking at Malleus with a stick to see how he will react, which is never a good idea. While the initial parties to the dispute may have done this out of ignorance, several who came in later clearly knew with whom they were dealing and, as such, should have known better than to provoke him with comments about his maturity. As it regards the suggested amendment, I see no cause for expanding the restriction. It already clearly provides for banning Malleus from an RFA where he is found to be engaging in the discussion in a disruptive manner and that remedy could have been appropriately acted on in this case. Unless Ent can provide a substantive reason for why the current remedy is insufficient I see no cause for implementing this suggestion. The appropriate place for raising further issues concerning this dispute would seem to be AE.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 01:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Quite aside from the hypocrisy of Wikipedia's double standard in immunizing experienced editors from behavior that'd get anon IPs indef blocked a hundred times over, what is the point of WP:CIVIL if it is not enforced? I am not only sick and tired of MF and his ilk running roughshod over civility, I'm sick and tired of the hypocrisy of their supporters, who seem to have chosen sides more along the lines of "I like the guy so anyone asking him to follow Wikipedia rules is a HATER" than for any other consideration. That the very same people often are quite ready to jump on others for incivility, real or imagined, at places like ANI is doubly ironic. Either enforce WP:CIVIL or demote it to an essay, but don't for an instance fancy that it's a net gain to keep a hothead like MF on board, because we lose productive editors who either want no part of such antics, or want no part of a encyclopedia that falsely claims to have civility rules.
That being said, I'm militantly disinterested in the notion that he was "baited" and thus "had" to respond in kind. Quite aside that our rules forbid any such retaliation, quite aside that you'd think someone with such a long block log would have the basic foresight to make a particular effort to keep his nose clean, do some of you truly think that Wikipedia is a children's playground, in which it's de rigeur to respond to playground taunts in kind? Me, I'd rather believe that we are adults, who can be expected to behave in an adult fashion.
Finally, as far as PhilKnight's comments below are concerned, oh please. RfA is a "discussion," not a "vote?" Since when? Would Phil care to share with us the number of nominees who hit 75% and failed to be promoted, as well as the number of nominees who fell below 70% and gained the mop anyway? (If he doesn't, I'll be happy to do so.) This is entirely a headcount, and about as rigid as any Wikipedia has. Ravenswing 04:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure how these AE thingies work, but presumably I'm meant to reply here rather on each individual statement? I only have a few things to say anyway:
It would have been nice if anyone had dropped me a note that I was being discussed here, but oh well.
I did not bait Malleus Fatuorum in any way, I saw that Malleus Fatuorum had changed someone else's comment (willfully or not), and wanted to draw their attention to it and see their reaction. If their reaction had been "oops, edit conflict" or "weird, no idea how that happened", then we all could have moved along. Instead, I got a very defensive reply. I considered that very telling, and said as much. No idea what was supposed to be "defensive" about that comment, but Malleus Fatuorum did all he could to make the situation worse. Looking at his other contributions from the same day, this turned out to be the standard modus operandi. The only thing I would handle differently the next time is that I would have blocked him for his severe personal attacks (against others, not against me). And now I'm off to ANI to see what was said in that discussion since the time I stopped editing yesterday... Fram ( talk) 06:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
(by the way, the automated edit summary for this page starts incorrectly: "/* {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment|Requests for clarification and amendment|Requests for clarification and amendment}} */"
Isn't it obvious what happened here? Look at the relevant version of the RFA in question and scroll right down to the bottom (that text stuck in the signature makes no sense). Malleus's response that added that text included the line: "I suggest that you re-read the Earth article, which does link to flat Earth theories". It should come as no surprise that the bit of text that ended up in IRWolfie's signature is a direct copy and paste from the Earth article of the sentence that includes this link (the text is present in this version). Surely what happened here (as User:Br'er Rabbit said above somewhere) is that Malleus had copied the text intending to quote it, or had highlighted it in some way while reading the article and noticing that the article linked to flat Earth theories, and some inadvertent keypress ended up pasting the text? I've done that in e-mails where the cursor ended up somewhere strange and I've been typing and not noticed I was putting text in the wrong place. There is also a common keypress that pastes recently copied text, which I've hit accidentally in the past. What is depressing is how things spiralled out of control from there. All that was needed was to remove the inadvertent text inclusion, and not even notify anyone, it was so obvious it was not intentional. Whether arbitrators want to spend time working out why things went downhill after that is up to them. The original filer of the request may (or may not) have a case to be made about the other diffs presented, but that is mostly being ignored, it seems, in favour of the current drama. Carcharoth ( talk) 08:10, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Side topic
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One further point. Reading a couple of the comments here and on user talk pages, there does seem to be something of a generational and cultural conflict here. By that, I mean that some of the animosity seems to arise from attitudes of contempt that are openly expressed (towards those that contribute less content and those who are younger). Some of this seems to be motivated by a desire to 'reform' the community and prompt a change in attitudes, but there is fine line between that and fomenting conflict and battleground attitudes. It is better to write about such things in essays and consider how to gather support for changes that could help. Just sounding off about things in various locations in the middle of random discussions doesn't actually achieve anything. A prime example (and I apologise to Malleus for bringing it up here, but it needs to be said) is this. What exasperates me is the idea that any teenager (or the more impressionable of the early 20s university student demographic) reading that will be anything other than annoyed by that. You don't change attitudes in teenagers by railing at them. You just have to let them grow out of it. Ched in his statement below seems to be asking ArbCom to take the role of parents to teenage children, which is something that is completely unmanageable. Going back to what Malleus said on his user talk page, the image of someone on the internet telling 'kids' on Wikipedia to fuck off is laughable. It's like a red rag to a bull. You just have to learn how to handle yourself on Wikipedia, rather than trying to adapt Wikipedia to suit you (see the George Bernard Shaw quote Malleus provided in that diff). Carcharoth ( talk) 05:09, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
All of you, find something better to do. VolunteerMarek 08:23, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh screw it, I'll tell you what I really think.
As the guardians of The Wikipedia the ArbCom faces a trilemma. There's really only three possible ways out of this recurring nightmare. Ok, it's actually only a good ol' fashioned dilemma, since two of the options are simply mirror images of each other, but I always like describing a situation as a "trilemma" since that makes it sound a bit more sophisticated. So anyway, here's your options:
The mirror image options, call them Options Alpha and Omega involve slapping the people who do this hard enough so that it doesn't happen again, at least for awhile. The only difference is whom the mighty hand of the ArbCom decides to "admonish". If you choose to follow this path turn to page 68... wait no, if you choose to follow this path then in all honesty the best thing you can do is just flip a freakin' coin and then commence with the smackin'.
Option Alphas - get it over with and indef ban Malleus from The Wikipedia. There'll be gnashing of teeth, complaints about how Courcelles is the new Enver Hoxa (I'm being careful here to avoid violating Goodwin's Law), complaints to Jimbo, people ripping their clothes off in public and wailing like banshees about how The Wikipedia is now ruined for all eternity. But if you just put that little "Do not unblock without permission from ArbCom" (often used on many a less famous user) in the block summary then, after three months or so everyone on this site will be like "Malleus who?". The Wikipedia has short memory and given our current retention rate, as well as all them valiant efforts from Sue Gardner at recruiting new editors, at that point we'll probably have 90% new editors anyway.
Option Omega - go the other way, desysop the fuck (as in desysop them very very strongly) out of all the damn admins who keep bringing this nonsense up, as well as slap all the lesser peeps with a three month site ban. Wait, that's actually milktoasty. No, desysop every admin that has commented on this page so far, on whichever side, and three month site ban any of the lesser peeps.
In the first category this would mean desysopping (like fuck) User:Worm That Turned, User:Sphilbrick, User:Resolute, User:Nikkimaria (you don't get off easy just cuz you're replying to others' statements rather than posting one of your own. Revolutionary justice!), User:Dennis Brown, User:Franamax and User:Fram (I would appreciate it if any of the admins that have commented above would politely get in the appropriate de-sysopping que).
Additionally you would need to three month site ban User:Equazcion, User:Eraserhead1, User:HandThatFeeds, User:IRWolfie-, User:DreamGuy, User:The Devil's Advocate, User:Ravenswing, User:Br'er Rabbit as well as of course... well, myself since I'm in the process of being just as guilty as everyone else, and of course User:Malleus Fatuorum and User:Nobody Ent.
That kind of knocking of noggins' together should make it clear to everyone that creating this idiotic drama, on whichever side is just not worth. Of course if you think that this is too much of a purge you could just flip that coin (I know you guys have one, only way to explain past ArbCom decisions) again and desysop, say, 3 out of the 7 administrators, and three month ban 5 out of the 11 non-administrators above.
What would happen then? Well, his three month ban aside, Malleus would probably do a little jig and there'd be some talk on some talk pages about how Malleus fought the law and won or something, but the law is unjust anyway. But in, hell, not even three months, with anyone scared to try and get him blocked again, Malleus would either a) get bored and go back to content editing which is why The Wikipedia keeps him around in the first place, b) get bored and fade away from "the project" like many before him or c) keep talking to himself and his closest buddies in some corner of The Wikipedia that everyone else can safely ignore. Wait - in regard to outcome c)... why isn't this already happening?
Ok, those are the two mirror options but sometimes, having observed an ArbCom case or two I have a feeling neither is going to happen. So you can go with the other corner of the trilemma, the Option ü-lambda (yes, I am aware those two letters are not even in the same alphabet but I'm complicated like that), which stands for "Option Uber-Lame" for those of you who dislike diacritics or something.
Option Ü-Lambda involves the outcome that always occurs but being so brutally honest about what it involves so that the appeal of engaging in this drama is significantly decreased. Basically it means saying to everyone: "You know how the saying says that history repeats itself first as tragedy and then as a farce" (I think I got that wrong but whatevers). Well, what happens if it keeps repeating itself again after it's already been repeated as a farce? History, tragedy, farce... what happens after that? The stupid idiocy we're in that's what. "Farce" is far too noble of a word to describe it with.
So just say it. "We are not going to do crap to anybody because taking an actual stance on this insanely stupid controversy would endanger our chances in the next ArbCom election or might otherwise piss off too many people. Hence we will follow the usual way of The Wikipedia and make pronouncements and pontificate but otherwise do nothing. Thank you for playing, see you next time, but please try, just try to realize how pathetic all of this is". If the ArbCom can just take a leading messianic role in admitting it's ineffectualness and patheticness in the circumstances of this case, perhaps others will too, and sincere heartfelt chest beating mea culpas will result. And the sound of a thousand fists beating against a thousand guilty chest will drown out the wolf cries of the githyanki and usher in a new scarlet dawn of a new millen .... ah sorry, getting lost there. Basically, maybe it will be enough to make at least some of the people involved - Malleus and his friends, his enemies, random passerbys and the ArbCom itself, and hey, me too - stop and think "Wow! I'm being a petty idiotic shit here".
VolunteerMarek 09:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
So I'm looking through the diffs provided by the complainant above expecting to see cunt and fuck-bombs left and right, but instead see stuff like "Fix it yourself" and "I'm actually rather staggered that 25% of the currently active admins can even string two sentences together, never mind take an article through FAC", "You are either joking or innumerate", etc...
My first thought was, "what does innumerate mean?", followed by a trip to Webster, and then a second thought of "we're here for this?" This is milquetoast even by drag-Malleus-to-Arb/ANI standards. Tarc ( talk) 14:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Here we go again--the predictable ArbCom follow-up to an equally predictable ANI thread. Something goes wrong, Malleus Fatuorum says something wrong, next thing you know we're calling for his head. I read things like "[editor X is] sick and tired of MF and his ilk running roughshod over civility" and can only think "whatever". The generalization is unwarranted, and that MF's supporters are hypocrites is really a personal attack which will no doubt be overlooked. (If I, for instance, were such a hypocrite, it could be proven by my blocking non-MF editors for similar infractions--I challenge anyone to find such examples; the same goes, I have no doubt, for admins like John.) Whatever MF has said in this minor issue is within accepted limits, at least in my book, and if actions can speak louder than words I invite anyone to hear what's being said by starting these repetitive ANI threads: if anything's disruptive it's those escalations. As for this particular request: I do not consider this to have been filed in good faith, with the intent of improving the project or as a desperate attempt to try and resolve the situation, as it was phrased on my talk page. Drmies ( talk) 15:09, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
It's always someone else's fault when it comes to Malleus isn't it? He always gets away with blaming his immature inability to control himself on the other person / the system / the cabal. Nobody else gets away with this when it comes to 'civility enforcement'. At this point, his special treatment is so blatant you're just rubbing everyone else's nose in it now. I'm a wikiholic with many thousands of edits behind me - but I contribute here inspite of the daily examples of unfairness like this - the stats show that plenty of other experienced contributors who aren't as dumb as me and have voted with their keyboards, finding something else to give their time to. It's time arbitrators found an effective way to deal with Malleus. If that means changing policy so that everyone else has the freedom he does, then make it so. If that means banning him and putting a marker down to his enablers, make it so. But for the love of God, do something, before you kill the project through sheer inertia, depriving it of the very people who are needed to continue it. Cracker92 ( talk) 17:43, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Unnecessary distraction closed by clerk. |
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Armageddon Sikkahim!, the new production from The Wikiville Amateur Dramatic Society (WADS) now showing at the Arbcom Theatre, revisits the real-life vicissitudes of small-town writer Patrick O'Dingaugh whose habitual outspokenness brings him into conflict with the town's Civility Police and members of the local Community Church of Pollyanna. His past conviction for blunt speaking while editing an encyclopedia formed the basis for the tragicomic Beastly! Beastly! Beastly!, staged by WADS earlier this year to mixed reviews. In Armageddon Sikkahim! a connected but even more trivial incident is inflated into another screechingly silly melodrama in which O'Dingaugh is exposed as Satan, the townspeople flee, and the town dies. Rumored next in the O'Dingaugh series: O'Dingaugh Ate My Baby! Writegeist ( talk) 18:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
@PhilKnight, Newyorkbrad, et al: not acting on the requested modification preserves the status quo of no response to Malleus Fatuorum's latest incivilities. Discussion has been shut down three times on AN/I, twice [40] [41] by an administrator hostile to civility enforcement who accuses those asking for civility of disruption and acting in bad faith [42] [43] [44]), and finally by a nonadmin [45] because there will be no administrative response now that Arbcom is handling it.
Is Arbcom handling it?? What guidance does Arbcom have for the administrators and community when this happens again? Nothing? Malleus does not acknowledge that he should stop, and will surely call some other editor an asshole, worthless clown, waste of space, or idiot in the future. May he be blocked summarily? Only with consensus? May the block be overturned? Admins presumably had the discretion to block Malleus at the time to prevent disruption, but that's stale now. A block would have met opposition, likely a wider dispute, possibly wheel warring as in the past. We've reached a bizarre state where the very discussion of civility is summarily shut down, with participants accused of bad faith and threatened or chastised by partisan administrators who are supposed to be helping. Is the aggrieved editor tendentious and deserving a block for complaining? I urge Arbcom to say something, if only that this level of civility does not merit action (and why). Forget this particular modification proposal and how it was brought. What happens next time? Should the sanction be modified, or enforced at all?
To state my biases, Malleus and I don't cross paths but I have a strong civility expectation of the project. So I admire his contributions and shy from his name-calling from afar. Collegiality and support make it worth venturing from the more cordial environment at say Quora or Yelp, and fleeing the more chaotic blogs and news sites, to contribute hundreds of articles as I have. The occasional abuse I suffer and witness here make me question my commitment. NONE of these sites would condone name-calling of the sort Malleus indulges, not a one. They summarily delete abusive comments and after due warning block or ban the offending user, no drama, no hand-wringing, and no soul searching. Nor would any professionally run website accuse people of baiting, tag-teaming, or plotting for pointing out obvious violations of their abuse policy. Are we in such a la-la land where this is even a question? Even when directed at others, abuse poisons collaborative pages where we're trying to work.
ArbCom ought to weigh in because inaction in the face of trouble is probably the worst choice. When it does, I urge them to consider that the vast majority of users, those who write the articles but do not flock to the notice boards, probably value a civil place to contribute. It is after all one of our founding principles. - Wikidemon ( talk) 23:11, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
As long as the Arbitration Committee condones (by lack of asserting a firm hand) this childish behavior of provoking and prodding established editors then this type of drama can be expected to continue. I'll agree that Malleus could have easily turned the tide with a "wasn't intended, feel free to fix it" rather than the {{ sofixit}} approach. On the other hand; Fram is no N00b here .. he knew full well what he was doing, and the It turns out to be quite telling. comment was a direct and pointed bait of something that Malleus has said before. Br'er Rabbit and Drimes pretty much nailed the basics above here. And in a sense I agree with NY Brad in the "Not impressed" comment - except that I /AM/ impressed ... just not in a positive way. As long as the committee allows these children to run amok tormenting people who actually contribute valuable content to the project - then you'll have to be prepared to deal with this juvenile drivel from the "puling masses". If you cater to these immature editors rather than offering a firm guiding hand .. then expect to hold court to "Lord of the Flies". It's up to you folks .. I really don't care anymore. But if you're gonna sit "on high" and pass judgment, then ya damn well ought to step back and be objective. — Ched : ? 23:42, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
My sense is that Malleus's enemies are tag-teaming and baiting him in an effort to get him banned and that he hasn't quite figured out how to push back without fouling. He's such an intelligent guy, it's really not that hard. In any event, if discipline is merited it should be directed towards whomever brought this idiotic proceeding and for those who have been baiting Malleus on his talk page. My opinion. Carrite ( talk) 00:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Let's all go write articles. Malleus is damn good at it. We are here to write an encyclopedia, yes? Keilana| Parlez ici 00:17, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Dreamguy said, "I also regularly see him ignoring or arguing against well-established concepts of our WP:NPOV policy like WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE to advance particular (and peculiar) viewpoints." What!? I've never seen Malleus do that, nor do I think I've even seen that alleged about him before. Diffs are required for such a strong claim of wrongdoing. Ladyof Shalott 01:02, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Name-calling is incivility. And it's still incivility when the names are "enthusiast", "enabler", "fan club", "supporter", or anything else along those lines. And, personally, I'm sick of being called names like this by people who either don't "know", me or hardly "know" me, every time there's a conflict. Doesn't anyone accept the possibility that there are actually some good-faith editors in here who'd really like this stuff to be approached in a mature, reasonable, flexible-minded, mediated, think-outside-the-box, constructive (as opposed to destructive) way? So, Arbs, please take note of all the unwarranted personal attacks on the motives, credibility, and personality of the intellectually mature and constructive. And take a good hard look at this kind of incivility which is undermining the strengths of what is allegedly an intellectually-mature society. It's insidious. It's pervasive. It's contemptible. And it's increasing. Pesky ( talk) 10:14, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Somebody pokes the bear with a stick, the bear growls at them, and they go running and crying "Mommy, the nasty bear growled at me - shoot the bear, Mommy!" -- Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 10:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I have lost count of the number of times I've silently fixed somebody else's edit conflict, inadvertent misplaced text-paste or accidental rollback. That would have been a good approach to use here, instead of confronting someone on their talk page to "see how they might react." I would think that from Fram's extensive interactions with Rich Frambrough, he would know that people do not, in fact, react particularly well to being ordered to fix something.
Why anyone was motivated to start an AN/I thread over this utterly trivial argument – much less drag ArbCom into it – is a mystery to me. This can and should have been resolved entirely on the user talk pages of the editors concerned. I would love it if ArbCom were to give some guidance to that effect to the people who decided to escalate this dispute and spread it to AN/I and here. 28bytes ( talk) 14:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I don't have much to say, but I feel there is a relatively widely-held opinion (with which I agree) that Malleus' contributions to anything related to RfA are usually more disruptive than not. For whatever reason, he seems to have a problem with the majority of users who have an admin bit. I think the situation would be further simplified by extending Malleus' topic ban to any page starting with either "Wikipedia:Requests for adminship" or "Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship". In my opinion, the topic ban should have been that broad from the start. A quick look at his recent RfA edits shows a consistently combative and disruptive attitude (which is somewhat normal for Malleus, but not welcome at a place as sensitive as RfA). -Scottywong | talk _ 02:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nug ( talk) at 20:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Are Admins required to place the notice of discretionary sanction on IPs, particularly static IPs, and add them to WP:ARBEE#List_of_editors_placed_on_notice? In two recent 3RN cases [46] [47], User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise blocked both User:Jaan (and FPoS did not take into account there was no diff warning Jaan, unlike admin Kuru did in a subsequent case [48]) and User:16.120.84.244 for breaching the 3RR rule. He subsequently noticed Jaan [49] and added him to the log [50], but did not do the same for the static IP. I asked him why [51], but seems to be ignoring my question [52]. It seems other admins treat IPs equally, for example User_talk:184.36.234.102, but apparently not FPaS. Could the Committee give direction on this. Thanks. -- Nug ( talk) 20:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
This is about nothing. I gave two users a standard (and therefore unlogged) 3RR block. I gave one of them a standard (and properly logged) arb warning at the same time. This is not about formalities of logging stuff, nor about how to treat IPs. It's simply about the fact that Nug, POV ally of the editor I warned, is unhappy I didn't warn the other guy too. Well, so what? I didn't feel like it, because the IP editor was new to the area and I wasn't yet seeing a consistent pattern of problems. But I warned him now, because he resumed edit-warring in the same way immediately after coming back from the block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Gimmetoo ( talk) at 18:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
As a result of motions in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Date_delinking, Ohconfucius editing of date-related material is subject to the jurisdiction of the arbitration committee, though it is unclear what provisions could be used for enforcement.
This clarification concerns two issues.
First, I and others have attempted to get User:Ohconfucius to follow WP:DATERET and stop removing YYYY-MM-DD format dates. This has been ongoing for more than a year, involving ANI [54] [55] [56] and User talk:Ohconfucius. For a recent example: [57], where the accessdates were 100% consistent in YYYY-MM-DD format, and the references used a style directly listed by WP:MOSDATE#In references as acceptable. A pattern of similar edits amounts to an attempted Wikipedia:Fait accompli.
Second, User:Ohconfucius also uses a script that sometimes removes a number of accessdates. Ohconfucius was notified of this on 8 June 2012, and made similar edits after (See User talk:Ohconfucius#More editing problems. I noticed that this same behaviour is still ongoing. [58] [59] [60]
Could the commitee clarify the arbcom enforcement of these behaviours?
The principle behind DATERET (we have an acronym for that now?) was primarily focussed on dates with written months. The use of "ISO" dates has been discussed extensively, and it appears a number of otherwise sane and well-informed Wikipedians had never run across the format before, and were confused, mystified and dismayed by it. For myself this reduced my support for such dates for access date fields from firm to dubious. Nonetheless proper usability statistics should be gathered before coming to a firm conclusion on this, and in general it should be noted that OhConfucious' efforts in this sphere are reasonably well thought out and carefully implemented.
Rich
Farmbrough, 01:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC).
Ohconfucius seems to have retired. I suppose this request should be suspended or dropped. I strongly disagree with Rich's statement that OhConfucious's efforts are "reasonably well thought out and carefully implemented", but WP:DEADHORSE seems to apply here. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by — Rich wales at 06:29, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
This decision currently authorizes discretionary sanctions for "topics related to the Balkans, broadly interpreted". I am requesting a clarification, stating that Cyprus is included in the scope of this remedy. Although Cyprus is not geographically close to the Balkans, it is intimately tied (historically and culturally) to both Greece and Turkey. Thus, I propose that Cyprus-related articles naturally fall under this topic area.
Cyprus-related articles have been subjected to continual edit-warring for years from tendentious editors on both sides — including, in particular, the disruptive activities of the banned user Justice Forever ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and his long list of socks — and I believe further options should be made available to help administrators keep these articles better under control.
I am particularly concerned that the dominance of sockpuppet investigation as the primary tool for keeping this topic area under control not only limits enforcement activities to a relatively small group of users who are experienced and confident sock hunters, but it also creates a risk (level currently unknown and possibly unknowable) that opinionated (but innocent) editors who might decide to get involved in the Cyprus topic area could be mistaken for socks and chased away from the project.
Affected articles would include Northern Cyprus, Nicosia, North Nicosia, Turkish invasion of Cyprus, Makarios III, and presumably every other article in Category:Cyprus and its subcategories.
I'm not imagining that extending discretionary sanctions to this topic area will magically make all the problems go away. However, with a subject as contentious (IMO) as Kosovo, Northern Ireland, or Barack Obama's presidential eligibility, it seems to me that adding this additional level of supervision over the Cyprus topic area can't hurt and may very possibly help. — Rich wales 06:35, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
If (per Jclemens' suggestion) we were to have a wide-ranging "disputed territories" sanctions category, one additional region to which expanded sanctions could reasonably apply would be Georgia, due to ongoing editing disputes over the disputed territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. If the blanket sanctions idea doesn't fly, I may consider requesting something for Georgia after we're done here. — Rich wales 14:40, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Commenting on Future Perfect at Sunrise's comment: While the current (and probably the main ongoing) point of irritation at Northern Cyprus has indeed been the incessant disruptive socking by Justice Forever, there have been other incidents in the past — such as some low-level edit warring and lengthy talk-page arguments revolving around at least one pro-Greek editor — activity which did a lot of simmering without really coming to a full boil, but which (IMO) could easily have escalated out of control. I didn't bring this up earlier because the worst of it ended several months ago and it didn't result in any outside intervention at the time, but if ArbCom feels this additional material should be cited in order to give a larger view of the overall situation, I can supply diffs. — Rich wales 07:36, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
While it is undeniable that Cyprus is an area for contentious claims, it is also undeniable that it is not Balkan, and extending definitions to the breaking point could mean we should add a host of such areas to that same title <g>. If ArbCom decided to, it could, by motion, add Cyprus to almost any decision, I suppose, but I question the wisdom of doing so. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 11:21, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
The scope of Wikipedia rules, including Arbcom decisions, should be dictated not by the scope of this or that geographical concept out there, but by the necessities of Wikipedia-internal situations. Given the connectedness of conflict areas and the similarity of situations, I see no problem with treating Cyprus in the same context as Greece and Turkey, of whose overall historical conflict lines the Cyprus conflict is a mere appendix. This is no different than treating Slovak or Hungarian issues under WP:ARBEE. Geographically, both countries are not in Eastern Europe either, but in Central Europe by most definitions. But what counts for us are not these geographical delimitations, but the nature of the conflicts in question. WP:ARBEE is essentially for post-Soviet-era and post-WWII ethnic conflicts; WP:ARBMAC is essentially for post-Ottoman ethnic conflicts. As such, Cyprus falls naturally under the latter, if we want it to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
There are two reasons that I see why Cyprus should be included in the Balkans and the WP:ARBMAC discretionary sanctions: 1) The conflicting parties in Cyprus are Greece and Turkey, which are both also involved in Balkan disputes, and 2) many of the same editors who were active in the Macedonian decision, especially from the Greek perspective, are also involved in issues surrounding Cyprus. Dealing with the same group of editors in a similar conflict area argues for inclusion in the WP:ARBMAC discretionary world. (But I hasten to note that the Greek-oriented editors actively involved at Northern Cyprus, for example, are not the source of the typical problems at that page.) -- Taivo ( talk) 22:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
To SilkTork, Risker and all the rest saying we need an actual case before discretionary sanctions: You do realize this is exactly why editors like me would rather have our toenails pulled out than get involved in dealing with nationalist troll-infested areas? When it comes to an actual case, while the nationalists may get banned, you will also be desysopped. You guys taught me a lesson in ArbMac2: get involved in a nationalist dispute that makes it to ArbCom and you are at risk of desysopping, and I've learnt it well and not gotten involved in any more. Plenty of nationalistic areas of Wikipedia may have gone to hell because of the people you've driven away, but who gives a crap? Procedure's been followed! Yay us! Heimstern Läufer (talk) 16:24, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I firmly agree that there is a "Cyprus problem" in the same way that there is a "Macedonia problem", a "Kosovo problem", and so on - many of those problems are currently under the ARBMAC umbrella. Cyprus-related articles get exactly the same kind of problematic editing. However, looking at it from other angles, the problem is different (different articles are a battleground, different sources are used/abused, &c and most problematic editors are more focussed than Justice Forever). Roberts once wrote something clever about how several seemingly-separate national conflicts are arguably just fights over different parts of the Ottoman succession; I'd include Cyprus in that. ARBMAC is focussed on the problematic editing rather than on the other angles so in that sense it's sensible to stretch it a little and I strongly support RichWales' proposal. However, I would also be happy with responding under a different banner if other editors are unhappy with the geographical shift - as long as we can improve how we deal with the nationalist editwarring and pov-pushing, I'm happy. Sorry for the belated response; I realise it's probably a moot point by now. bobrayner ( talk) 13:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
For the purposes of enforcement action under this case, the discretionary sanctions shall apply to the Balkans, Turkey, Cyprus, and the generally unrecognized state of Northern Cyprus, all broadly construed.
For this motion, there are 13 active non-recused arbitrators, so 7 votes are a majority.