I request assistance with regard to the threatening and near obsessional approach from this person towards me. It is quite clear that there is a level of hostility that is neither good for Wikipedia nor healthy for the person herself. I am concerned that this situation is about to spiral out of control to the detriment of all. - Robert the Bruce 22:04, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone comment on the edits by Rudi Dierick to that page? He is posting some quotes but not giving the source. I am not saying he is wrong (he might be right), but I want to see the source and direct quotes. He hasn't provided any. I also noticed some other quotes on the page but sources are not given. This doesn't make any sense OneGuy 15:42, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
RickK banned a user, solely over an edit dispute at Larry Sanger. The three-reverts rule did not apply, vandalism was clearly not occurring. Wert
(note: Wert appears to have left Wikipedia -- sannse (talk) 19:45, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC))
User:RaffiKojian and I ( User:Ato) are engaged in a revert war (now ceased thanks to User:AndyL's protection of the page, per my request) in History of Turkey article. Raffi wants to make a reference to Armenian Genocide article in this article, and formulates it in a way that disregards the dispute surrounding this issue. I am opposing this on two grounds: 1) At this level of detail in the article this reference makes it imbalanced. We neglect a lot of important parts of prerepublic history of Turkey, this inclusion gives the impression its importance exceeds many other events 2) The way Raffi wants it to be included: "Ottoman Empire carried out Armenian Genocide", which incidentally is the way it is included in the protected article, does not mention the context in which the referred events happened and disregards the majority of Turkish population's view, namely that these events do not deserve to be called genocide. I would like to point out that this is not the same as denying the deaths, or the order of deportation etc. so saying something like "Turkey denies it happened" gives quite a wrong impression, a detailed explanation is necessary if a reference will be made. I have taken a break from editing the article and asked for third party opinion, in particular from User:Jerzy. He responded but Raffi and I still failed to come to an agreement. I proposed a comprimise: leaving the article in a form which makes both of us unhappy [1] (I object to the reference at this level of detail, Raffi objects to the form of the reference) and work on a draft (see: talk:History of Turkey/Draft), which Raffi has so far ignored. I asked Raffi to ask for mediation together, but he did not respond (even though he was swiftly reverting my changes), so I am asking for mediation by myself. If anybody wants to discuss this issue, I would be happy to provide more details. Even if you are not a mediator or do not want to mediate but has things to say, please feel free to leave messages on my talk page, e.g., for pointing out what could have I done differently and why. at 0 21:28, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I didn't notice Ato's message to me about mediation on the 12th. No matter, I agree on the request for mediation. I feel like my whole exchange with Ato has been a waste, despite my attempts for discussion and compromise. I went along with his request not to include it in the Turkey article at all. I went along with his request for user Jerzy to give his thoughts on whether it belonged on the History of Turkey page at all (Jerzy thought definitely so). I replied to why the wording he was reverting to was completely false and he ignored my explanations, comments on that. So I feel like all I can agree with on this is that we need a third party to step in here. His unilateral decision to create a new draft is fine, but I am just watching it to see how it develops. I certainly have the feeling anything I wrote on there would be removed, just like before. I would be happy to have Jerzy write the Armenian Genocide reference. To say that he was did not like the one small sentence genocide reference because it was so prominent in a short article seems ridiculous to me. First it is so brief, primarily serving as a link. Second it is natural for an article to develop in one place then another. Third, I think in general when he says things like "this inclusion gives the impression its importance exceeds many other", it just shows his attitude that the genocide was not a big deal. Not important enough to warrant space. Then he goes on after saying it takes up too much space, that there should be more background/explanation. His denial that it was genocide is even one thing, but his attempt to characterize this as "Armenian view vs. Turkish" even is not a fair one. Virtually serious scholars not getting funding from the Turkish government - including a number of Turkish scholars agree it was genocide. It is a truth vs. the Turkish Government battle, and the massive efforts of Turkey to prevent discussion and censor the suject in Turkey that have led to this. Anyway - I feel like there is no way I can convince Ato with facts when trying to find proper wording, so let me know what is needed from me on mediation. -- RaffiKojian 03:40, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm happy to act as a mediator here, if neither party objects to my presence. Ambi 03:20, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would welcome it. Where should we discuss this issue? You may want to leave a message on Raffi's talk page and/or History of Turkey article's talk page. I will copy this message to your talk page as well. at 0 21:28, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Mediation requested with Boraczek. He obviously doesn't understand, despite valiant efforts by me and others to explain things to him in simple terms, that these articles are supposed to be NPOV, that facts are needed rather than opinions, and that he cannot destroy documented statements and replace them with opinions or even factually incorrect information. Discussion with him borders on the impossible: he refuses to answer direct questions, preferring instead to push his POV over and over à la VeryVerily. See, for example, Joseph Stalin, Kulak, Collectivisation in the USSR, Ludo Martens, Free world, Great Purge, and Communism, just to name seven, and their associated talk pages.
Lately Boraczek has also taken to following me around and spitefully reverting changes to articles that he never would have seen had I not edited them. See, for example, Weathermen and Boricua Popular Army.
I have very little confidence that mediation with this person will succeed, but let's give it a try anyway. Shorne 10:34, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is (once more) a dispute arising at Talk:Atheism. I am satisfied that multiple POVs should brought into the article, but some regulars such as Adraeus and Bryan et al. are particularly interested in brow-beating the issue. Particularly, I find remarks such as "Sorry, bub. You're wrong." particularly intolerant of POVs that differ from their author. Last time the issue was raised, there was just one voice (Sam Spade in a sockpuppet) who disagreed with them, and his viewpoint was considered solitary. Now there is a multiplicity of views and arguments, that appear to be split on the issue of whether or not atheism/theism is an exclusive dichotomy. My position regarding the article is that both POV (exclusive/non-exclusive) are legitimate views, but I have been told by Atreus "If you edit the article to suit your view, I'll consider your edit vandalism and act appropriately." Help! ( 20040302 07:54, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC))
Then, unless you want to make a specific request Sam - I think this is not a suitable case for mediation at this point, and I will archive this request -- sannse (talk) 22:04, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
HistoryBuffEr has consistently insisted on completely re-writing stable articles in a highly POV way, in particular and most recently) the Yasser Arafat, Ariel Sharon, Rachel Corrie, Sabra and Shatila massacre articles. As a simple example of POV, he has insisted that the only NPOV way of describing Israeli settlements (the generally accepted term) is as "occupation colonies", going so far as to removing direct links to the Wikipedia article. This is a long-standing pattern with him, present from his very first edits on Wikipedia. Even more significantly, in spite of dozens or perhaps hundreds of contested edits on these pages, HistoryBuffEr has refused to discuss any of them on the relevant Talk: pages, and in most cases has never even edited the Talk: pages, ignoring many invitations and requests to do so. As well, on the few articles where he does use the Talk: pages, his comments are often highly abusive, violating Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility policies. Finally, as he has stated as policy that he will not respond to me at all, I have not approached him on this matter, but come directly here. Jayjg 18:42, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Update: I have "taken the plunge" and informed him on his Talk: page. Jayjg 16:24, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) Update: I request mediation to work out these issues with HistoryBuffEr. Jayjg 19:53, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It appears that Jayjg is confusing Mediation with a Soapbox or a Request for Comments:
All this suggests that Jayjg is not proposing mediation in good faith, but merely as another tool to smear opponents and promote his POV. This RfM should be withdrawn or put on hold until Jayjg states something that goes beyond the soapbox/RfC level and shows that he is ready for mediation. HistoryBuffEr 19:36, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)
Jayjg has just confirmed above that he considers his RfM not a means to negotiate but merely a tool to impose his POV. This is my final post here: Invalid RfM, remove. HistoryBuffEr 17:48, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)
From WP:RFC a few days ago:
History of Article:
Background to the article:
Resolution measures undertaken to date:
There is broad consensus amongst all contributors that this behaviour is against policy and Wiki-quette, and the user seems to have no grasp of NPOV despite many explanations and much patience.
Yet the article speaks positively about bestiality and uses the term zoophilia, which was created by bestials to make it more acceptable. The souces used for the argument have many pro-bestial sources, such as books like "Dearest pet." It is in no way npov. Its no more unbiased than the infamous boylover article wikipedia also hosts. -- Ciz 02:25, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Books
Mediation or advice please. FT2 21:09, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
Has Ciz been invited to take part in mediation? If not that's your first step. There seem to be a lot of people involved in this dispute, is one person prepared to work with Ciz and the mediator in this matter? Perhaps FT2? The next question for both Ciz and the representative for the others involved is whether you have any preferences as to the mediator. There is a list of mediators at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee. Please let us know of any preferences. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 22:45, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
air...his last edit being on November the 4th. PMC 00:27, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to ask everyone, including Ciz, to stop the debate here for now. Let's concentrate on getting the mediation up and running - and then the issues can be discussed within the mediation.
Ciz - the question for you at the moment is whether you are prepared to try mediation with the people you are in dispute with. Please read Wikipedia:What is mediation? for more information on what this is all about, then let me know if you are willing to give mediation a go.
Others - I think, for the first part of the mediation at least, it would be useful to restrict the mediation to being between Ciz and one other person (who can then represent the rest of you). More people is possible if you would prefer that, but I believe it better to start with a smaller scale discussion. It seems to me that you are all in general agreement as to the problems here. So, if that's agreeable to you all, please let me know who will represent you.
Thanks all -- sannse (talk) 15:38, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The following is a highly edited version of the discussion so far. All comments except those relating directly to setting up the mediation have been removed. This includes removing statements from both sides that will be useful as part of the mediation, but can be put aside until then (they are, of course, preserved in the history and can be restored for archiving). Any attributed comments have not been edited - except where clearly indicated. Removal of comments is not meant to imply any opinion about them - it's just an attempt to concentrate on seeing if we can set this up. -- sannse (talk) 00:07, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Mediation was requested by FT2 at 21:09, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
Since Oct 21 the following users have posted to Talk:Zoophilia: Ciz, PMC, Ralesk, FT2, FOo, Schnee (sysop), ContiE (sysop)
Has Ciz been invited to take part in mediation? If not that's your first step. There seem to be a lot of people involved in this dispute, is one person prepared to work with Ciz and the mediator in this matter? Perhaps FT2? The next question for both Ciz and the representative for the others involved is whether you have any preferences as to the mediator. There is a list of mediators at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee. Please let us know of any preferences. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 22:45, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think both FT2 and I are willing to work with Ciz and the mediator here, at least. As for mediator preferences, I'd like to respectfully request that it be someone else than Ed Poor (who I think I would not be able to work with well, due to personal reasons). Angela seems like a good choice to me. That being said, I'll add a note to the talk page asking Ciz and everyone else to join the mediation process. -- Schnee 15:48, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to ask everyone, including Ciz, to stop the debate here for now. Let's concentrate on getting the mediation up and running - and then the issues can be discussed within the mediation.
Ciz - the question for you at the moment is whether you are prepared to try mediation with the people you are in dispute with. Please read Wikipedia:What is mediation? for more information on what this is all about, then let me know if you are willing to give mediation a go.
Others - I think, for the first part of the mediation at least, it would be useful to restrict the mediation to being between Ciz and one other person (who can then represent the rest of you). More people is possible if you would prefer that, but I believe it better to start with a smaller scale discussion. It seems to me that you are all in general agreement as to the problems here. So, if that's agreeable to you all, please let me know who will represent you.
Thanks all -- sannse (talk) 15:38, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Mediation can be very flexible - it's a case of what works rather than any set process. Whether others can observe, what information on progress is made public, how many people are directly involved - all these will be up to the participants and the mediator. -- sannse (talk) 10:33, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The following comment is directed to Ciz. Sniped and moved to the end of the discussion:
[...] this is not the place to discuss the zoophilia issue. Please stop debating here and tell us if you are willing to mediate with (one of) us (see Wikipedia:What is mediation? if you haven't already). Thank you. -- Conti| ✉ 23:14, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
I'd rather not have FT2 do it, as I believe his opinion on the subject matter is not neutral. -- Ciz 00:27, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't the mediator be neutral? FT2's opinion on the subject are not neutral. -- Ciz 05:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thank you Ciz. The next question is who should be your mediator. I am available - will you accept me as mediator? If not, please look at the list of mediators at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee and I can ask if they would be willing to help. Please let me know what you decide. -- sannse (talk) 20:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
From User talk:Ciz: You can be the mediator.--Ciz 01:33, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the response Ciz.
FT2: you said you have no preference - are you OK with me as mediator? -- sannse (talk) 12:33, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks FT2.
OK the first thing I’m going to ask you both to do is to hold off on discussing this at Talk:Zoophilia for a while, just let that page go for now, and we will move all discussion to within the mediation. I’d also ask other participants on that page to postpone discussion there as much as possible. Let your representative discuss for you within the mediation.
FT2 and Ciz. Perhaps we can start by both of you emailing me explaining what you want from each other. My address is sannse(at)tiscali.co.uk I will keep your email address confidential – neither of you will see the other's address at any time. If you want to, you could create a throw-away account for this rather than use your regular address.
Please read Wikipedia:Confidentiality_during_mediation before writing to me – this sets out the confidentiality rules I work by and what I would expect from you. Please let me know if you are happy with this and agree to your part within them - or if you have any concerns about them.
Many thanks -- sannse (talk) 18:27, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As documented at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Ranamim, User:Ranamim has repeatedly and egregiously insulted at least three Wikipedians, including myself. Other dubious conduct is also detailed there and on Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Ranamim. I was hoping that just raising a request for comment would get him to back off, but apparently all it is getting him to do is hide behind an anonymous IP address. I am asking for mediation (I'm not sure if any of the other people he has insulted want to join me; if so they can sign themselves up here). I will accept mediation by any member of the mediation committee. Given his behavior so far I can't imagine he will accept mediation, but I'm giving him the chance. If he does not I will certainly ask for arbitration, regardless of whether he will participate in the process or not. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:29, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
What do you want? I don't understand. I can no longer edit with my old username because your friend, rrickK, who I wouldn't say anything about banned my IP (strangely, it happens so often, there is another request about him on this very page). He did me a favor because I don't wish to spend too much time here. (I wish I were at Edinburgh University to have more time to do so, though) And frankly, like I pointed earlier, communicating with you is not worth my time. If this is insulting to you, I am sorry. This is not a perfect world. We all make decisions based on some rationales. Simply put, I prefer to optimally allocate my time among activites that benefit me the most. That includes not communicating with people to whom I have to constantly explain my logic or actions which seem transparent to people of the level of intelligence that I normally surround myself with. A sufficient number of your comments have solidified my opinion about you. At some point your called that "hatred" or whatnot...well, yes, I do not like dumb people. Your web page's profile added additional evidence to my suspicions. So, that's it. You are Ranamim-free. Go, make the world ....a "better" place. And all the people who I commented about (according to you "insulted") happened to be graduates of the same university over a dispute for pages of THAT university. It is called conflict of interest. I think it is now resolved, so I am back to contributing where I normally do and you to whatever makes you happy. And if you prefer to waste with some requests for mediations and whatever else you like...go ahead. In economics (game theory), it is called Signalling. I take it to be a reflection of the almost non-existent opportunity cost of your time which only strengthens my opinions about you as noted above. But don't expect me to engage in some kind of lengthy polemic about numerous issues. It won't happen.
Hmm, I'm trying to explain to Feloniousmonk that
And hmm well,
I don't really intend to attack him on any of these points, I'd just like to point out that he should improve on them. He keeps misunderstanding me for some reason though, right now he probably thinks I'm out for his blood.
I've already tried talking with him on User Talk:FeloniousMonk. I've tried asking Jwrosenzweig for advice and I'd also asked Jimbo Wales (who is known to remain very cool headed :-) ) if maybe he could have a chat with FeloniousMonk, though this discussion was distorted by misunderstandings again, and I don't think Jimbo even got the message.
I have not attempted RFC, because I think the pattern would repeat there, making it harder to reconcile. (Though I'd certainly do so if people really insist.)
Perhaps a mediator acting as a filter would prevent further misunderstandings from occurring, I certainly hope so. So I'd like to officially ask for mediation in this matter.
Kim Bruning 21:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I decline this particular mediation for three reasons:
Instead, I make this counter-offer (again)- that Kim and I agree to assume the other's good faith, shake hands, and go our separate ways to leave the other to contribute unmolested.-- FeloniousMonk 16:10, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
FeloniousMonk, I want to reassure you that any mediation would look at both sides of the dispute and try to resolve your concerns as well as Kim's. That said, it is also a completely voluntary process, and if you choose not to participate that is entirely up to you. If you do choose not to participate, Kim may choose to ask for arbitration – although I would strongly urge both of you to consider that a last resort and try to see if you can resolve your differences amicably – whether that is within the mediation process or not. -- sannse (talk) 17:48, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It can be very difficult for both sides to trust the intent of the other, but I have had the experience within mediation of that trust developing over time. From a mediator's point of view, I consider it important for me to start with the assumption that both sides are acting in good faith - although my views on that may change over time, and if I became convinced otherwise I would end a mediation attempt. For your other concern - I think the main thing here is careful choice of mediator. If you can choose someone who you both feel comfortable with, that is ideal. All the current mediators are also admins, but that covers a wide range of styles and opinions. If you choose to try mediation, hopefully you can decide on a mediator that you feel you can trust. -- sannse (talk) 20:46, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've reconsidered, and I agree to this mediation with Kim Bruning as long as it is understood and agreed that the mediation process will also address my concerns over the following issues and will give equal time to their consideration with the purpose being to resolve them and to stop Kim Bruning from continuing as described below should they be determined to be well-founded.
Specifically, my claims to be addressed in mediation are that Kim Bruning has:
-- FeloniousMonk 20:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thank you FeloniousMonk.
The next stage is to choose your mediator. I am available, or we can ask another mediator from the list at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee. The main thing is to find one that you can both agree on. The other question is where mediation should take place. This can be on the old mediation bulletin board, on IRC, by email - or in any other way agreed by you both and your mediator. My own belief is that email is a good way to start. Please both let me know your opinions on these two questions. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 20:41, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For ease I've grouped these two together, and for respect I've kept them separate below the above heading as they were posted by those seeking mediation. FT2 22:31, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)
Several days ago Cultural and historical background of Jesus because CheeseDream and I had begun an edit war. Since then there have been mounds of discussion about the various issues. Although CheeseDreams and Amgine often call for votes on specific points and claim to represent a consensus version, these votes are generally on matters of content, and follow inadequate discussion. I find it practically impossible to have a civil, productive discussion with these two contributors, and feel that the process has been hijacked.
There are two major substantive concerns. One -- which has been discussed various times with mixed results -- is the nature of the article. CheeseDream considers it a violation of POV to assume Jesus existed, and has claimed that the article should simply be about Roman Palestine between 1 and 33 CE; most others believe it is legitimate to include Jesus in the title and article; I have pointed out that this article began as a daughter article from the Jesus page when that page became too long. The original purpose of the page was to provide an account of how academic critical historians and Bible scholars view Jesus' life (the bulk of the Jesus article provides an account from a Christian point of view).
The second concerns verifiability. CheeseDream and Amgine have proposed and called for votes on various passages that include assertions of fact that I believe are flat out wrong and do not reflect any of a range of views of current academic researchers. I have asked each of them, several times, to provide evidence and sources. Both have refused. Instead, they have demanded I provide sources for my claims. I have provided my sources, and they have dismissed my research. At one point, user:Mpolo asked a question and I gave a well-researched answer -- which CheeseDream dismissed by saying "someone Jewish is best placed to find out the answers. CheeseDreams 10:11, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)" (the entire exchange is now in Talk:Cultural and historical background of Jesus/Archive 2.
I admit that the talk page, with two archived pages, is now very long and it would take a long time for a mediator to go through the whole thing. Alas, the length of the discussion is in part evidence of the problem -- and I believe it is largely caused by CheeseDream and a few others, most recently Amgine's, lengthy but utterly uninformed arguments. However, I have a specific request: one section of the discussion, "the new messiah paragraph" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cultural_and_historical_background_of_Jesus#New_Messiah_paragraph illustrates all of the problems I am having with CheeseDream and Amgine. This very long section (which CheeseDream recently divided, a little arbitrarily, into several parts) is basically a debate over two proposed revised sections of the article, one by Amgine, and one by me. After proposing his version, Amgine wrote "this is only a first attempt, so go ahead and rip on it." Along with other users, I pointed out various problems almost all of which were dismissed. I asked several times for sources and proof and was ignored or rebuked. I then proposed my version and it was dismissed out of hand. I asked what was wrong with my version and the answer was basically that it wasn't Amgine's.
The following (and, surrently, last) section -- CheeseDream's paragraph on Messianic Movements -- also provides a very clear example of my difficulty communicating (working productively on the article, via the talk page) with CheeseDreams.
The effect of all of this is that any question I ask is brushed off, and any suggestion I make is brushed off. It is as if Amgine and CheeseDream want to ban me from working on this article. This is especially upsetting to me as I have done considerable research on this topic, and with every comment of theirs, it becomes clearer and clearer to me that CheeseDream and Amgine have done none. I thought Danny would be a well-situated mediator, but see he has resigned. I think Bcorr would be a good mediator as well. Slrubenstein 17:20, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly accept this request for mediation.
- Amgine 22:58, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The following includes Quotes from Slrubenstein.
Issues of civility (from a single article talk page, in a single fortnight):
(from his talk page)
(from Amgine's talk page)
Issues of debating behaviour
I think we are on very shaky ground, rejecting good research because we don't like the researcher. (when I objected to personal research based on the Wikipedia:No personal research policy, and his own statement that We should rely on research done by others, and that Most historians see Hinduism as coming into existence in the 19th century as a result of English colonialism (which is blatently not true))
Call me a snob, but if it isn't in a peer-reviewed publication or a book published by an academic press, or by an established scholar, I do not think it should be described as "historical evidence." (this would discount the tomb of tutankhamun being "historical evidence", since it was found by a camel herder)
Further I object to the manner in which, as a (protected page) debate clearly approaches consensus (predominantly against his POV), Slrubenstein opens up an entirely new issue about what the nature and title of the page ought to be. When consensus on this new issue was predominanly reached against him, he opened up a new debate on all the original issues that we had just reached consensus on.
In addition, when the debate went to voting, I noted (by looking at his contributions list) that Slrubenstein had sent comments to people who appear to support his POV (from their edit history), but not to those who didn't. To me, this seems unethical, and Gerrymandering. From his talk page, User:Eloquence objected to the behaviour as well.
In addition, Slrubenstein proposing his own version of a paragraph for an article, when a consensus paragraph was otherwise being hammered out. The paragraph he propose completely ignored the problems raised during the consensus paragraph's creation, and in fact completely ignored the consensus paragraph. The exact response by Amgine to him on this issue was My specific objection was you chose to discard an extent compromise text without attempcting to improve it, and instead substitute your own.
Further, re-raising slurs when the other contributers had moved away from that issue as it was not relevant.
In addition, going to mediation without notifying either myself, or Amgine. CheeseDreams 21:41, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Comment on CheeseDreams and SIRubenstein:
It seems from what's been said here, that FT2 has been doing a good job of mediating. I wonder whether it might be better to continue with him as mediator rather than introducing a new person to learn all the complicated aspects of this case. While he is not an official mediator, I see no reason why he shouldn't continue to work with you if that is likely to give the best result. Whether you continued on the talk page, or move to a private venue for this would be up to you. However, if this is unacceptable to some or all of you, then we could look for a mediation committee member to help instead. -- sannse (talk) 13:11, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is true that I have treated FT2 as another editor and contributor, not as an official mediator with special authority. It is true that I have objected to a number of his statements, but only because I think the reflect a misunderstanding of the history and historiography of 1st century Judea and Galilee, and because he supported statements of fact that I believe to be wrong and unverifiable. These are substantive issues that bear on the accuracy of the article, and I think every editor has an obligation to raise these issues on talk pages. If we are to have a mediator whose task it is to mediate disputes over content -- substantive claims over Jewish/Christian history, that person has to have some basic understanding of historiography and the standards of historical research and scholarship. In this case I would prefer a mediator other than FT2 (BUT I must emphasize that I mean no disrespect to FT2 as a member of the Wikipedia community, and wlecome his continued comments on the page in question). My request for mediation is motivated by a more "meta" concern, which has to do with the way I, Amgine, and CheeseDream interact, and the process that has evolved on the talk page. I do not think that simply voting on issues is an adequate or appropriate solution. It doesn't matter whether 100 people vote for my version, or 100 people vote for Amgine's version, if the two versions are unverifiable and inaccurate. We need a way to address the issue of verifiability and accuracy. I thought Danny would be a well-situated mediator, but see he has resigned. I think Bcorr would be a good mediator as well. Slrubenstein
I think there may be a misunderstanding about the role of the mediator here. Mediation is not arbitration and the mediator will not made decisions on content. Nor are we able to make policy decisions on issues such as how consensus should be measured. What we can do is try to guide the discussion, promote understanding and try and find areas of compromise to soothe disputes. But that said, mediation is still a useful process, and if you prefer an official mediator, that's fine.
I think Danny may still be available (the mediator list may be out of date) and Bcorr is still around too.
Amgine and CheeseDreams - do you have any preferences as to mediator? Please don't disregard Danny and Bcorr because Slrubenstein suggested them. The choice of mediator needs to be someone both sides can agree to - so it will have to be someone that Slrubenstein trusts, as well as someone you can trust. I suggest looking at Danny and Bcorr's user pages and contributions to see either is someone you could work with. I can recommend both of them as non-biased and effective mediators. -- sannse (talk) 19:15, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we cannot have User:Sannse then, What about User:Angela? I think she would be above suspicion.
I think
User:Llywrch,
User:Dante Alighieri, and
User:Cimon Avaro would be neutral too. I have chosen these as they have not been terribly involved in religion based articles, and therefore are unlikely to have strong POV on the subject matter.
CheeseDreams 23:38, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
More seriously, this is too long. It has become an extension to the debate, and thats not what RfM is for. Neither party is majorly "at fault", both are anxious not to be blamed for things they didn't do, and fear the other is guilty of bad faith. But I think from the outside I can speak for all those involved and say to both, you are not seen as "the villains", either of you, by others. You both care a lot for this article, you haven't figured out how to work or trust together, and thats why we are willing and hopeful to help you fix that. You have to do a few things to make that possible though, and here they are:
To be frank, I think CheeseDreams puts me in a bad position. He asks three questions, and I have already ansewered (b) by naming two people. What if I had asked these three questions? CheeseDreams has already answered: his answers to (a) and (c) are "no." This is how things stand right now -- he really doesn't want to know my preferences because he rejects them out of hand. What is left to me? I could be petulant and simply imitate CheeseDreams and say that I reject anyone he nominates out of hand. Or I could just let CheeseDreams pick the mediator -- which seems unfair and counter to the whole notion of mediation. I am in an impossible position. HIs refusal to consider my suggestions, and his insistence on having his own way (albeit through a vote!) is emblematic of why I felt we needed mediation in the first place.
I would prefer that the mediators suggested decide among themseleves who has the time, interest, and confidence that they can handle the different threads of this. I'll accept whatever choice the mediation committee makes. Slrubenstein
So, when you said you were just waiting for the third party, what exactly were you waiting for? Slrubenstein
Just to note: Angela (CheeseDreams' first choice) is not currently available. llywrch has written above to offer his help. -- sannse (talk) 14:21, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Llywrch, if you are willing to slog through the history of this dispute, I will be very grateful. From an earlier comment I believe CheeseDream would prefer you to start looking at the talk page starting November 1. I have no objection to that, I realize it means looking over a large part of this history. Personally, I think if you start with "The New Messaih Paragraph" around November 12, and read everything that followed, you would get a fair sense of the different people and their positions. Frankly, I have been working on this article every day and every day I think it gets bgetter and better -- more informative more NPOV, more verifiable. Yet my experience on the tlak page is increasingly depressing. I honestly feel like I can no longer communicate with FT2, CheeseDream, and Amgine. One question: do you see your task as mediating on content, or on process? Do you see your task as helping us understand one another better, on helping us communicate and work togehter more effectively, or to mediate an actual rewrite of the article? Well, I can't wait for your help, Slrubenstein
I have been contacted by all 3 parties in this case. I would like to conduct this mediation in email, because I think that might help simplify matters. Does anyone have objections? -- llywrch 04:24, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
On the basis the mediator has become involved in the editing of the article in question, and is determining the correctness or incorrectness of edits offered by individuals involved in the mediation, I feel it is unlikely this mediation will result in a mediated end to conflict. Therefore I am withdrawing from the mediation. - 19:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Dr Zen has been harassing me for the past few days, making personal attacks and libelous statements about me on
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/LGagnon and
Talk:Stephen King. The former page is an a more serious matter, since he is trying to sway the vote on that page by lying about my actions and words. Action to solve this dispute is needed immediately, as he is making the election process unfair by convincing voters to vote against me on the grounds of his lies.
I would contact Dr Zen himself to agree to this mediation, but he has refused to listen to anything I post on his talk page. -- [[User:LGagnon|
LGagnon]] 01:27, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
There are more, and you shouldn't have difficulty finding them.
Might I add, I don't think it's fair for you, a user who already has biases against me, to be deciding this; after all, a mediator is supposed to be unbiased. -- [[User:LGagnon|
LGagnon]] 03:44, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
Please assist us in Aisha. OneGuy is insisting that his apologetic view on Aisha should get first mention before the more mainstream views. (unsigned by 168.209.97.34 - sig added by sannse)
I am ready to recognise that my action was not the best on the AC election procedure page. And it is absolutely okay for anyone to restore other people comments. However, I do not think my edit deserved to be called vandalism and I really strongly resent it. Xed is calling me removing other people comments vandalism, but his removing my comments are apparently not vandalism. Xed refuses to put back my comments for the reason I am a vandal and my comments are only acceptable on the talk page. I do not see why other people comments are acceptable on the page while mine should only be in the talk page. I think that whatever the actions done by other editors, we should try to consider they were acting in good faith and Xed is not offering me this. I would like that people talk to him and try to find an agreement about this. I would like first either that my comments are restored by Xed himself, second that he agrees I am not a vandal (even if of course he may completely disagree with me removing other people comments). If I am a vandal for this action, so is he in removing mine. I think his behavior is totally unwikilove, and meant to preserve a very unwikilove page, and it is really upsetting me. SweetLittleFluffyThing 18:37, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have now been told that Xed is widely considered a troll; so I guess calling people he disagrees with "vandals" is a pretty normal behavior for someone such as Xed, and pretty much nothing should be expected from him. This request is consequently bogus and I will from now adopt toward Xed the proper behavior suitable with trolls.
I kinda hope the future arbitration committee will find ways to clean up the english wikipedia of some of these impleasant personalities.
- Ant
I request assistance with regard to the threatening and near obsessional approach from this person towards me. It is quite clear that there is a level of hostility that is neither good for Wikipedia nor healthy for the person herself. I am concerned that this situation is about to spiral out of control to the detriment of all. - Robert the Bruce 22:04, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone comment on the edits by Rudi Dierick to that page? He is posting some quotes but not giving the source. I am not saying he is wrong (he might be right), but I want to see the source and direct quotes. He hasn't provided any. I also noticed some other quotes on the page but sources are not given. This doesn't make any sense OneGuy 15:42, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
RickK banned a user, solely over an edit dispute at Larry Sanger. The three-reverts rule did not apply, vandalism was clearly not occurring. Wert
(note: Wert appears to have left Wikipedia -- sannse (talk) 19:45, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC))
User:RaffiKojian and I ( User:Ato) are engaged in a revert war (now ceased thanks to User:AndyL's protection of the page, per my request) in History of Turkey article. Raffi wants to make a reference to Armenian Genocide article in this article, and formulates it in a way that disregards the dispute surrounding this issue. I am opposing this on two grounds: 1) At this level of detail in the article this reference makes it imbalanced. We neglect a lot of important parts of prerepublic history of Turkey, this inclusion gives the impression its importance exceeds many other events 2) The way Raffi wants it to be included: "Ottoman Empire carried out Armenian Genocide", which incidentally is the way it is included in the protected article, does not mention the context in which the referred events happened and disregards the majority of Turkish population's view, namely that these events do not deserve to be called genocide. I would like to point out that this is not the same as denying the deaths, or the order of deportation etc. so saying something like "Turkey denies it happened" gives quite a wrong impression, a detailed explanation is necessary if a reference will be made. I have taken a break from editing the article and asked for third party opinion, in particular from User:Jerzy. He responded but Raffi and I still failed to come to an agreement. I proposed a comprimise: leaving the article in a form which makes both of us unhappy [1] (I object to the reference at this level of detail, Raffi objects to the form of the reference) and work on a draft (see: talk:History of Turkey/Draft), which Raffi has so far ignored. I asked Raffi to ask for mediation together, but he did not respond (even though he was swiftly reverting my changes), so I am asking for mediation by myself. If anybody wants to discuss this issue, I would be happy to provide more details. Even if you are not a mediator or do not want to mediate but has things to say, please feel free to leave messages on my talk page, e.g., for pointing out what could have I done differently and why. at 0 21:28, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I didn't notice Ato's message to me about mediation on the 12th. No matter, I agree on the request for mediation. I feel like my whole exchange with Ato has been a waste, despite my attempts for discussion and compromise. I went along with his request not to include it in the Turkey article at all. I went along with his request for user Jerzy to give his thoughts on whether it belonged on the History of Turkey page at all (Jerzy thought definitely so). I replied to why the wording he was reverting to was completely false and he ignored my explanations, comments on that. So I feel like all I can agree with on this is that we need a third party to step in here. His unilateral decision to create a new draft is fine, but I am just watching it to see how it develops. I certainly have the feeling anything I wrote on there would be removed, just like before. I would be happy to have Jerzy write the Armenian Genocide reference. To say that he was did not like the one small sentence genocide reference because it was so prominent in a short article seems ridiculous to me. First it is so brief, primarily serving as a link. Second it is natural for an article to develop in one place then another. Third, I think in general when he says things like "this inclusion gives the impression its importance exceeds many other", it just shows his attitude that the genocide was not a big deal. Not important enough to warrant space. Then he goes on after saying it takes up too much space, that there should be more background/explanation. His denial that it was genocide is even one thing, but his attempt to characterize this as "Armenian view vs. Turkish" even is not a fair one. Virtually serious scholars not getting funding from the Turkish government - including a number of Turkish scholars agree it was genocide. It is a truth vs. the Turkish Government battle, and the massive efforts of Turkey to prevent discussion and censor the suject in Turkey that have led to this. Anyway - I feel like there is no way I can convince Ato with facts when trying to find proper wording, so let me know what is needed from me on mediation. -- RaffiKojian 03:40, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm happy to act as a mediator here, if neither party objects to my presence. Ambi 03:20, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would welcome it. Where should we discuss this issue? You may want to leave a message on Raffi's talk page and/or History of Turkey article's talk page. I will copy this message to your talk page as well. at 0 21:28, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Mediation requested with Boraczek. He obviously doesn't understand, despite valiant efforts by me and others to explain things to him in simple terms, that these articles are supposed to be NPOV, that facts are needed rather than opinions, and that he cannot destroy documented statements and replace them with opinions or even factually incorrect information. Discussion with him borders on the impossible: he refuses to answer direct questions, preferring instead to push his POV over and over à la VeryVerily. See, for example, Joseph Stalin, Kulak, Collectivisation in the USSR, Ludo Martens, Free world, Great Purge, and Communism, just to name seven, and their associated talk pages.
Lately Boraczek has also taken to following me around and spitefully reverting changes to articles that he never would have seen had I not edited them. See, for example, Weathermen and Boricua Popular Army.
I have very little confidence that mediation with this person will succeed, but let's give it a try anyway. Shorne 10:34, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is (once more) a dispute arising at Talk:Atheism. I am satisfied that multiple POVs should brought into the article, but some regulars such as Adraeus and Bryan et al. are particularly interested in brow-beating the issue. Particularly, I find remarks such as "Sorry, bub. You're wrong." particularly intolerant of POVs that differ from their author. Last time the issue was raised, there was just one voice (Sam Spade in a sockpuppet) who disagreed with them, and his viewpoint was considered solitary. Now there is a multiplicity of views and arguments, that appear to be split on the issue of whether or not atheism/theism is an exclusive dichotomy. My position regarding the article is that both POV (exclusive/non-exclusive) are legitimate views, but I have been told by Atreus "If you edit the article to suit your view, I'll consider your edit vandalism and act appropriately." Help! ( 20040302 07:54, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC))
Then, unless you want to make a specific request Sam - I think this is not a suitable case for mediation at this point, and I will archive this request -- sannse (talk) 22:04, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
HistoryBuffEr has consistently insisted on completely re-writing stable articles in a highly POV way, in particular and most recently) the Yasser Arafat, Ariel Sharon, Rachel Corrie, Sabra and Shatila massacre articles. As a simple example of POV, he has insisted that the only NPOV way of describing Israeli settlements (the generally accepted term) is as "occupation colonies", going so far as to removing direct links to the Wikipedia article. This is a long-standing pattern with him, present from his very first edits on Wikipedia. Even more significantly, in spite of dozens or perhaps hundreds of contested edits on these pages, HistoryBuffEr has refused to discuss any of them on the relevant Talk: pages, and in most cases has never even edited the Talk: pages, ignoring many invitations and requests to do so. As well, on the few articles where he does use the Talk: pages, his comments are often highly abusive, violating Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility policies. Finally, as he has stated as policy that he will not respond to me at all, I have not approached him on this matter, but come directly here. Jayjg 18:42, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Update: I have "taken the plunge" and informed him on his Talk: page. Jayjg 16:24, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) Update: I request mediation to work out these issues with HistoryBuffEr. Jayjg 19:53, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It appears that Jayjg is confusing Mediation with a Soapbox or a Request for Comments:
All this suggests that Jayjg is not proposing mediation in good faith, but merely as another tool to smear opponents and promote his POV. This RfM should be withdrawn or put on hold until Jayjg states something that goes beyond the soapbox/RfC level and shows that he is ready for mediation. HistoryBuffEr 19:36, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)
Jayjg has just confirmed above that he considers his RfM not a means to negotiate but merely a tool to impose his POV. This is my final post here: Invalid RfM, remove. HistoryBuffEr 17:48, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)
From WP:RFC a few days ago:
History of Article:
Background to the article:
Resolution measures undertaken to date:
There is broad consensus amongst all contributors that this behaviour is against policy and Wiki-quette, and the user seems to have no grasp of NPOV despite many explanations and much patience.
Yet the article speaks positively about bestiality and uses the term zoophilia, which was created by bestials to make it more acceptable. The souces used for the argument have many pro-bestial sources, such as books like "Dearest pet." It is in no way npov. Its no more unbiased than the infamous boylover article wikipedia also hosts. -- Ciz 02:25, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Books
Mediation or advice please. FT2 21:09, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
Has Ciz been invited to take part in mediation? If not that's your first step. There seem to be a lot of people involved in this dispute, is one person prepared to work with Ciz and the mediator in this matter? Perhaps FT2? The next question for both Ciz and the representative for the others involved is whether you have any preferences as to the mediator. There is a list of mediators at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee. Please let us know of any preferences. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 22:45, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
air...his last edit being on November the 4th. PMC 00:27, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to ask everyone, including Ciz, to stop the debate here for now. Let's concentrate on getting the mediation up and running - and then the issues can be discussed within the mediation.
Ciz - the question for you at the moment is whether you are prepared to try mediation with the people you are in dispute with. Please read Wikipedia:What is mediation? for more information on what this is all about, then let me know if you are willing to give mediation a go.
Others - I think, for the first part of the mediation at least, it would be useful to restrict the mediation to being between Ciz and one other person (who can then represent the rest of you). More people is possible if you would prefer that, but I believe it better to start with a smaller scale discussion. It seems to me that you are all in general agreement as to the problems here. So, if that's agreeable to you all, please let me know who will represent you.
Thanks all -- sannse (talk) 15:38, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The following is a highly edited version of the discussion so far. All comments except those relating directly to setting up the mediation have been removed. This includes removing statements from both sides that will be useful as part of the mediation, but can be put aside until then (they are, of course, preserved in the history and can be restored for archiving). Any attributed comments have not been edited - except where clearly indicated. Removal of comments is not meant to imply any opinion about them - it's just an attempt to concentrate on seeing if we can set this up. -- sannse (talk) 00:07, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Mediation was requested by FT2 at 21:09, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
Since Oct 21 the following users have posted to Talk:Zoophilia: Ciz, PMC, Ralesk, FT2, FOo, Schnee (sysop), ContiE (sysop)
Has Ciz been invited to take part in mediation? If not that's your first step. There seem to be a lot of people involved in this dispute, is one person prepared to work with Ciz and the mediator in this matter? Perhaps FT2? The next question for both Ciz and the representative for the others involved is whether you have any preferences as to the mediator. There is a list of mediators at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee. Please let us know of any preferences. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 22:45, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think both FT2 and I are willing to work with Ciz and the mediator here, at least. As for mediator preferences, I'd like to respectfully request that it be someone else than Ed Poor (who I think I would not be able to work with well, due to personal reasons). Angela seems like a good choice to me. That being said, I'll add a note to the talk page asking Ciz and everyone else to join the mediation process. -- Schnee 15:48, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to ask everyone, including Ciz, to stop the debate here for now. Let's concentrate on getting the mediation up and running - and then the issues can be discussed within the mediation.
Ciz - the question for you at the moment is whether you are prepared to try mediation with the people you are in dispute with. Please read Wikipedia:What is mediation? for more information on what this is all about, then let me know if you are willing to give mediation a go.
Others - I think, for the first part of the mediation at least, it would be useful to restrict the mediation to being between Ciz and one other person (who can then represent the rest of you). More people is possible if you would prefer that, but I believe it better to start with a smaller scale discussion. It seems to me that you are all in general agreement as to the problems here. So, if that's agreeable to you all, please let me know who will represent you.
Thanks all -- sannse (talk) 15:38, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Mediation can be very flexible - it's a case of what works rather than any set process. Whether others can observe, what information on progress is made public, how many people are directly involved - all these will be up to the participants and the mediator. -- sannse (talk) 10:33, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The following comment is directed to Ciz. Sniped and moved to the end of the discussion:
[...] this is not the place to discuss the zoophilia issue. Please stop debating here and tell us if you are willing to mediate with (one of) us (see Wikipedia:What is mediation? if you haven't already). Thank you. -- Conti| ✉ 23:14, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
I'd rather not have FT2 do it, as I believe his opinion on the subject matter is not neutral. -- Ciz 00:27, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't the mediator be neutral? FT2's opinion on the subject are not neutral. -- Ciz 05:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thank you Ciz. The next question is who should be your mediator. I am available - will you accept me as mediator? If not, please look at the list of mediators at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee and I can ask if they would be willing to help. Please let me know what you decide. -- sannse (talk) 20:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
From User talk:Ciz: You can be the mediator.--Ciz 01:33, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the response Ciz.
FT2: you said you have no preference - are you OK with me as mediator? -- sannse (talk) 12:33, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks FT2.
OK the first thing I’m going to ask you both to do is to hold off on discussing this at Talk:Zoophilia for a while, just let that page go for now, and we will move all discussion to within the mediation. I’d also ask other participants on that page to postpone discussion there as much as possible. Let your representative discuss for you within the mediation.
FT2 and Ciz. Perhaps we can start by both of you emailing me explaining what you want from each other. My address is sannse(at)tiscali.co.uk I will keep your email address confidential – neither of you will see the other's address at any time. If you want to, you could create a throw-away account for this rather than use your regular address.
Please read Wikipedia:Confidentiality_during_mediation before writing to me – this sets out the confidentiality rules I work by and what I would expect from you. Please let me know if you are happy with this and agree to your part within them - or if you have any concerns about them.
Many thanks -- sannse (talk) 18:27, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As documented at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Ranamim, User:Ranamim has repeatedly and egregiously insulted at least three Wikipedians, including myself. Other dubious conduct is also detailed there and on Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Ranamim. I was hoping that just raising a request for comment would get him to back off, but apparently all it is getting him to do is hide behind an anonymous IP address. I am asking for mediation (I'm not sure if any of the other people he has insulted want to join me; if so they can sign themselves up here). I will accept mediation by any member of the mediation committee. Given his behavior so far I can't imagine he will accept mediation, but I'm giving him the chance. If he does not I will certainly ask for arbitration, regardless of whether he will participate in the process or not. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:29, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
What do you want? I don't understand. I can no longer edit with my old username because your friend, rrickK, who I wouldn't say anything about banned my IP (strangely, it happens so often, there is another request about him on this very page). He did me a favor because I don't wish to spend too much time here. (I wish I were at Edinburgh University to have more time to do so, though) And frankly, like I pointed earlier, communicating with you is not worth my time. If this is insulting to you, I am sorry. This is not a perfect world. We all make decisions based on some rationales. Simply put, I prefer to optimally allocate my time among activites that benefit me the most. That includes not communicating with people to whom I have to constantly explain my logic or actions which seem transparent to people of the level of intelligence that I normally surround myself with. A sufficient number of your comments have solidified my opinion about you. At some point your called that "hatred" or whatnot...well, yes, I do not like dumb people. Your web page's profile added additional evidence to my suspicions. So, that's it. You are Ranamim-free. Go, make the world ....a "better" place. And all the people who I commented about (according to you "insulted") happened to be graduates of the same university over a dispute for pages of THAT university. It is called conflict of interest. I think it is now resolved, so I am back to contributing where I normally do and you to whatever makes you happy. And if you prefer to waste with some requests for mediations and whatever else you like...go ahead. In economics (game theory), it is called Signalling. I take it to be a reflection of the almost non-existent opportunity cost of your time which only strengthens my opinions about you as noted above. But don't expect me to engage in some kind of lengthy polemic about numerous issues. It won't happen.
Hmm, I'm trying to explain to Feloniousmonk that
And hmm well,
I don't really intend to attack him on any of these points, I'd just like to point out that he should improve on them. He keeps misunderstanding me for some reason though, right now he probably thinks I'm out for his blood.
I've already tried talking with him on User Talk:FeloniousMonk. I've tried asking Jwrosenzweig for advice and I'd also asked Jimbo Wales (who is known to remain very cool headed :-) ) if maybe he could have a chat with FeloniousMonk, though this discussion was distorted by misunderstandings again, and I don't think Jimbo even got the message.
I have not attempted RFC, because I think the pattern would repeat there, making it harder to reconcile. (Though I'd certainly do so if people really insist.)
Perhaps a mediator acting as a filter would prevent further misunderstandings from occurring, I certainly hope so. So I'd like to officially ask for mediation in this matter.
Kim Bruning 21:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I decline this particular mediation for three reasons:
Instead, I make this counter-offer (again)- that Kim and I agree to assume the other's good faith, shake hands, and go our separate ways to leave the other to contribute unmolested.-- FeloniousMonk 16:10, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
FeloniousMonk, I want to reassure you that any mediation would look at both sides of the dispute and try to resolve your concerns as well as Kim's. That said, it is also a completely voluntary process, and if you choose not to participate that is entirely up to you. If you do choose not to participate, Kim may choose to ask for arbitration – although I would strongly urge both of you to consider that a last resort and try to see if you can resolve your differences amicably – whether that is within the mediation process or not. -- sannse (talk) 17:48, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It can be very difficult for both sides to trust the intent of the other, but I have had the experience within mediation of that trust developing over time. From a mediator's point of view, I consider it important for me to start with the assumption that both sides are acting in good faith - although my views on that may change over time, and if I became convinced otherwise I would end a mediation attempt. For your other concern - I think the main thing here is careful choice of mediator. If you can choose someone who you both feel comfortable with, that is ideal. All the current mediators are also admins, but that covers a wide range of styles and opinions. If you choose to try mediation, hopefully you can decide on a mediator that you feel you can trust. -- sannse (talk) 20:46, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've reconsidered, and I agree to this mediation with Kim Bruning as long as it is understood and agreed that the mediation process will also address my concerns over the following issues and will give equal time to their consideration with the purpose being to resolve them and to stop Kim Bruning from continuing as described below should they be determined to be well-founded.
Specifically, my claims to be addressed in mediation are that Kim Bruning has:
-- FeloniousMonk 20:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thank you FeloniousMonk.
The next stage is to choose your mediator. I am available, or we can ask another mediator from the list at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee. The main thing is to find one that you can both agree on. The other question is where mediation should take place. This can be on the old mediation bulletin board, on IRC, by email - or in any other way agreed by you both and your mediator. My own belief is that email is a good way to start. Please both let me know your opinions on these two questions. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 20:41, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For ease I've grouped these two together, and for respect I've kept them separate below the above heading as they were posted by those seeking mediation. FT2 22:31, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)
Several days ago Cultural and historical background of Jesus because CheeseDream and I had begun an edit war. Since then there have been mounds of discussion about the various issues. Although CheeseDreams and Amgine often call for votes on specific points and claim to represent a consensus version, these votes are generally on matters of content, and follow inadequate discussion. I find it practically impossible to have a civil, productive discussion with these two contributors, and feel that the process has been hijacked.
There are two major substantive concerns. One -- which has been discussed various times with mixed results -- is the nature of the article. CheeseDream considers it a violation of POV to assume Jesus existed, and has claimed that the article should simply be about Roman Palestine between 1 and 33 CE; most others believe it is legitimate to include Jesus in the title and article; I have pointed out that this article began as a daughter article from the Jesus page when that page became too long. The original purpose of the page was to provide an account of how academic critical historians and Bible scholars view Jesus' life (the bulk of the Jesus article provides an account from a Christian point of view).
The second concerns verifiability. CheeseDream and Amgine have proposed and called for votes on various passages that include assertions of fact that I believe are flat out wrong and do not reflect any of a range of views of current academic researchers. I have asked each of them, several times, to provide evidence and sources. Both have refused. Instead, they have demanded I provide sources for my claims. I have provided my sources, and they have dismissed my research. At one point, user:Mpolo asked a question and I gave a well-researched answer -- which CheeseDream dismissed by saying "someone Jewish is best placed to find out the answers. CheeseDreams 10:11, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)" (the entire exchange is now in Talk:Cultural and historical background of Jesus/Archive 2.
I admit that the talk page, with two archived pages, is now very long and it would take a long time for a mediator to go through the whole thing. Alas, the length of the discussion is in part evidence of the problem -- and I believe it is largely caused by CheeseDream and a few others, most recently Amgine's, lengthy but utterly uninformed arguments. However, I have a specific request: one section of the discussion, "the new messiah paragraph" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cultural_and_historical_background_of_Jesus#New_Messiah_paragraph illustrates all of the problems I am having with CheeseDream and Amgine. This very long section (which CheeseDream recently divided, a little arbitrarily, into several parts) is basically a debate over two proposed revised sections of the article, one by Amgine, and one by me. After proposing his version, Amgine wrote "this is only a first attempt, so go ahead and rip on it." Along with other users, I pointed out various problems almost all of which were dismissed. I asked several times for sources and proof and was ignored or rebuked. I then proposed my version and it was dismissed out of hand. I asked what was wrong with my version and the answer was basically that it wasn't Amgine's.
The following (and, surrently, last) section -- CheeseDream's paragraph on Messianic Movements -- also provides a very clear example of my difficulty communicating (working productively on the article, via the talk page) with CheeseDreams.
The effect of all of this is that any question I ask is brushed off, and any suggestion I make is brushed off. It is as if Amgine and CheeseDream want to ban me from working on this article. This is especially upsetting to me as I have done considerable research on this topic, and with every comment of theirs, it becomes clearer and clearer to me that CheeseDream and Amgine have done none. I thought Danny would be a well-situated mediator, but see he has resigned. I think Bcorr would be a good mediator as well. Slrubenstein 17:20, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly accept this request for mediation.
- Amgine 22:58, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The following includes Quotes from Slrubenstein.
Issues of civility (from a single article talk page, in a single fortnight):
(from his talk page)
(from Amgine's talk page)
Issues of debating behaviour
I think we are on very shaky ground, rejecting good research because we don't like the researcher. (when I objected to personal research based on the Wikipedia:No personal research policy, and his own statement that We should rely on research done by others, and that Most historians see Hinduism as coming into existence in the 19th century as a result of English colonialism (which is blatently not true))
Call me a snob, but if it isn't in a peer-reviewed publication or a book published by an academic press, or by an established scholar, I do not think it should be described as "historical evidence." (this would discount the tomb of tutankhamun being "historical evidence", since it was found by a camel herder)
Further I object to the manner in which, as a (protected page) debate clearly approaches consensus (predominantly against his POV), Slrubenstein opens up an entirely new issue about what the nature and title of the page ought to be. When consensus on this new issue was predominanly reached against him, he opened up a new debate on all the original issues that we had just reached consensus on.
In addition, when the debate went to voting, I noted (by looking at his contributions list) that Slrubenstein had sent comments to people who appear to support his POV (from their edit history), but not to those who didn't. To me, this seems unethical, and Gerrymandering. From his talk page, User:Eloquence objected to the behaviour as well.
In addition, Slrubenstein proposing his own version of a paragraph for an article, when a consensus paragraph was otherwise being hammered out. The paragraph he propose completely ignored the problems raised during the consensus paragraph's creation, and in fact completely ignored the consensus paragraph. The exact response by Amgine to him on this issue was My specific objection was you chose to discard an extent compromise text without attempcting to improve it, and instead substitute your own.
Further, re-raising slurs when the other contributers had moved away from that issue as it was not relevant.
In addition, going to mediation without notifying either myself, or Amgine. CheeseDreams 21:41, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Comment on CheeseDreams and SIRubenstein:
It seems from what's been said here, that FT2 has been doing a good job of mediating. I wonder whether it might be better to continue with him as mediator rather than introducing a new person to learn all the complicated aspects of this case. While he is not an official mediator, I see no reason why he shouldn't continue to work with you if that is likely to give the best result. Whether you continued on the talk page, or move to a private venue for this would be up to you. However, if this is unacceptable to some or all of you, then we could look for a mediation committee member to help instead. -- sannse (talk) 13:11, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is true that I have treated FT2 as another editor and contributor, not as an official mediator with special authority. It is true that I have objected to a number of his statements, but only because I think the reflect a misunderstanding of the history and historiography of 1st century Judea and Galilee, and because he supported statements of fact that I believe to be wrong and unverifiable. These are substantive issues that bear on the accuracy of the article, and I think every editor has an obligation to raise these issues on talk pages. If we are to have a mediator whose task it is to mediate disputes over content -- substantive claims over Jewish/Christian history, that person has to have some basic understanding of historiography and the standards of historical research and scholarship. In this case I would prefer a mediator other than FT2 (BUT I must emphasize that I mean no disrespect to FT2 as a member of the Wikipedia community, and wlecome his continued comments on the page in question). My request for mediation is motivated by a more "meta" concern, which has to do with the way I, Amgine, and CheeseDream interact, and the process that has evolved on the talk page. I do not think that simply voting on issues is an adequate or appropriate solution. It doesn't matter whether 100 people vote for my version, or 100 people vote for Amgine's version, if the two versions are unverifiable and inaccurate. We need a way to address the issue of verifiability and accuracy. I thought Danny would be a well-situated mediator, but see he has resigned. I think Bcorr would be a good mediator as well. Slrubenstein
I think there may be a misunderstanding about the role of the mediator here. Mediation is not arbitration and the mediator will not made decisions on content. Nor are we able to make policy decisions on issues such as how consensus should be measured. What we can do is try to guide the discussion, promote understanding and try and find areas of compromise to soothe disputes. But that said, mediation is still a useful process, and if you prefer an official mediator, that's fine.
I think Danny may still be available (the mediator list may be out of date) and Bcorr is still around too.
Amgine and CheeseDreams - do you have any preferences as to mediator? Please don't disregard Danny and Bcorr because Slrubenstein suggested them. The choice of mediator needs to be someone both sides can agree to - so it will have to be someone that Slrubenstein trusts, as well as someone you can trust. I suggest looking at Danny and Bcorr's user pages and contributions to see either is someone you could work with. I can recommend both of them as non-biased and effective mediators. -- sannse (talk) 19:15, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we cannot have User:Sannse then, What about User:Angela? I think she would be above suspicion.
I think
User:Llywrch,
User:Dante Alighieri, and
User:Cimon Avaro would be neutral too. I have chosen these as they have not been terribly involved in religion based articles, and therefore are unlikely to have strong POV on the subject matter.
CheeseDreams 23:38, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
More seriously, this is too long. It has become an extension to the debate, and thats not what RfM is for. Neither party is majorly "at fault", both are anxious not to be blamed for things they didn't do, and fear the other is guilty of bad faith. But I think from the outside I can speak for all those involved and say to both, you are not seen as "the villains", either of you, by others. You both care a lot for this article, you haven't figured out how to work or trust together, and thats why we are willing and hopeful to help you fix that. You have to do a few things to make that possible though, and here they are:
To be frank, I think CheeseDreams puts me in a bad position. He asks three questions, and I have already ansewered (b) by naming two people. What if I had asked these three questions? CheeseDreams has already answered: his answers to (a) and (c) are "no." This is how things stand right now -- he really doesn't want to know my preferences because he rejects them out of hand. What is left to me? I could be petulant and simply imitate CheeseDreams and say that I reject anyone he nominates out of hand. Or I could just let CheeseDreams pick the mediator -- which seems unfair and counter to the whole notion of mediation. I am in an impossible position. HIs refusal to consider my suggestions, and his insistence on having his own way (albeit through a vote!) is emblematic of why I felt we needed mediation in the first place.
I would prefer that the mediators suggested decide among themseleves who has the time, interest, and confidence that they can handle the different threads of this. I'll accept whatever choice the mediation committee makes. Slrubenstein
So, when you said you were just waiting for the third party, what exactly were you waiting for? Slrubenstein
Just to note: Angela (CheeseDreams' first choice) is not currently available. llywrch has written above to offer his help. -- sannse (talk) 14:21, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Llywrch, if you are willing to slog through the history of this dispute, I will be very grateful. From an earlier comment I believe CheeseDream would prefer you to start looking at the talk page starting November 1. I have no objection to that, I realize it means looking over a large part of this history. Personally, I think if you start with "The New Messaih Paragraph" around November 12, and read everything that followed, you would get a fair sense of the different people and their positions. Frankly, I have been working on this article every day and every day I think it gets bgetter and better -- more informative more NPOV, more verifiable. Yet my experience on the tlak page is increasingly depressing. I honestly feel like I can no longer communicate with FT2, CheeseDream, and Amgine. One question: do you see your task as mediating on content, or on process? Do you see your task as helping us understand one another better, on helping us communicate and work togehter more effectively, or to mediate an actual rewrite of the article? Well, I can't wait for your help, Slrubenstein
I have been contacted by all 3 parties in this case. I would like to conduct this mediation in email, because I think that might help simplify matters. Does anyone have objections? -- llywrch 04:24, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
On the basis the mediator has become involved in the editing of the article in question, and is determining the correctness or incorrectness of edits offered by individuals involved in the mediation, I feel it is unlikely this mediation will result in a mediated end to conflict. Therefore I am withdrawing from the mediation. - 19:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Dr Zen has been harassing me for the past few days, making personal attacks and libelous statements about me on
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/LGagnon and
Talk:Stephen King. The former page is an a more serious matter, since he is trying to sway the vote on that page by lying about my actions and words. Action to solve this dispute is needed immediately, as he is making the election process unfair by convincing voters to vote against me on the grounds of his lies.
I would contact Dr Zen himself to agree to this mediation, but he has refused to listen to anything I post on his talk page. -- [[User:LGagnon|
LGagnon]] 01:27, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
There are more, and you shouldn't have difficulty finding them.
Might I add, I don't think it's fair for you, a user who already has biases against me, to be deciding this; after all, a mediator is supposed to be unbiased. -- [[User:LGagnon|
LGagnon]] 03:44, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
Please assist us in Aisha. OneGuy is insisting that his apologetic view on Aisha should get first mention before the more mainstream views. (unsigned by 168.209.97.34 - sig added by sannse)
I am ready to recognise that my action was not the best on the AC election procedure page. And it is absolutely okay for anyone to restore other people comments. However, I do not think my edit deserved to be called vandalism and I really strongly resent it. Xed is calling me removing other people comments vandalism, but his removing my comments are apparently not vandalism. Xed refuses to put back my comments for the reason I am a vandal and my comments are only acceptable on the talk page. I do not see why other people comments are acceptable on the page while mine should only be in the talk page. I think that whatever the actions done by other editors, we should try to consider they were acting in good faith and Xed is not offering me this. I would like that people talk to him and try to find an agreement about this. I would like first either that my comments are restored by Xed himself, second that he agrees I am not a vandal (even if of course he may completely disagree with me removing other people comments). If I am a vandal for this action, so is he in removing mine. I think his behavior is totally unwikilove, and meant to preserve a very unwikilove page, and it is really upsetting me. SweetLittleFluffyThing 18:37, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have now been told that Xed is widely considered a troll; so I guess calling people he disagrees with "vandals" is a pretty normal behavior for someone such as Xed, and pretty much nothing should be expected from him. This request is consequently bogus and I will from now adopt toward Xed the proper behavior suitable with trolls.
I kinda hope the future arbitration committee will find ways to clean up the english wikipedia of some of these impleasant personalities.
- Ant