This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
There are other, equally reliable academics cited in the references to this article who dispute this. That is why representing a single point of view in the introductory paragraph counts as POV under wikipedia guidelines. Furthermore, the article you cite refers to *historical* discussions of devadasi status. *NOBODY debates the fact that in post-independence India Devadasis are basically prostitutes*, which is what the introductory paragraph correctly states. This is a clearly recorded fact, which is why the governments of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu etc. are working to stamp out this practice. It is clear from your editing history that you are a high-caste south Indian. Hence perhaps you feel ashamed about the statement you keep removing. I am British (although I live in India, pay Indian taxes and my partner is Indian). Depsite feeling ashamed about the activities of British people under colonialism, this does not give me the right to remove references to crimes committed by the British under the colonial regime. Please grow up. If you change this again, I will request mediation. Jez Humble 10:51am, 15 January 2007 (IST).
This is laughable. Are you accusing the governments of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu and a host of Indian Hindu academics of anti-Hindu bias? Devadasis are Hindus too. Are you accusing them of anti-Hindu bias? This is an encyclopedia of facts. You need to provide evidence of your view, not resort to name-calling. Unless you can provide evidence that in post-independence India it is not the case thet "upper-caste men have sexual intercourse with [Devadasis] for a price" then you should restore the statement. I repeat that *nobody* disputes this, and there are numberous references to this practice by Hindu human rights activists and in contemporary Indian newspapers. I have requested mediation for this article.
<Added by Rumpelstiltskin223> This is how the debate REALLY went down:
I have reverted the following change from the introduction: "Then, upper-caste men can have sexual intercourse with them for a price" was changed to "European colonialists associated this function with prostitution. However, notable scholars and feminist groups have largely debunked this assertion", since this is blatant POV. This sentence removed represents the "Revivalist" point of view, which is described at length in the article. I added the (single) reference given to the references section. This reference in any case cannot be used to justify "notable scholars and feminist groups" since it represents the view of a single person and the page referenced cites only a single source which is itself already referenced in this article. It should be noted that a great deal of modern academic work (referenced in this article) has been done by Indians, including Hindus, who are certainly not under the influence of European colonialists which demonstrate that in modern times "upper-caste men have sexual intercourse with [Devadasis] for a price" Jez Humble 12:31, 15 January 2007 (IST)
There are other, equally reliable academics cited in the references to this article who dispute this. That is why representing a single point of view in the introductory paragraph counts as POV under wikipedia guidelines. Furthermore, the article you cite refers to *historical* discussions of devadasi status. *NOBODY debates the fact that in post-independence India Devadasis are basically prostitutes*, which is what the introductory paragraph correctly states. This is a clearly recorded fact, which is why the governments of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu etc. are working to stamp out this practice. It is clear from your editing history that you are a high-caste south Indian. Hence perhaps you feel ashamed about the statement you keep removing. I am British (although I live in India, pay Indian taxes and my partner is Indian). Depsite feeling ashamed about the activities of British people under colonialism, this does not give me the right to remove references to crimes committed by the British under the colonial regime. Please grow up. If you change this again, I will request mediation. Jez Humble 10:51am, 15 January 2007 (IST).
This is laughable. Are you accusing the governments of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu and a host of Indian Hindu academics of anti-Hindu bias? Devadasis are Hindus too. Are you accusing them of anti-Hindu bias? This is an encyclopedia of facts. You need to provide evidence of your view, not resort to name-calling. Unless you can provide evidence that in post-independence India it is not the case thet "upper-caste men have sexual intercourse with [Devadasis] for a price" then you should restore the statement. I repeat that *nobody* disputes this, and there are numberous references to this practice by Hindu human rights activists and in contemporary Indian newspapers. I have requested mediation for this article.
Please do me the favour of reading what I say. I am saying, as is the article, that CURRENTLY, POST-INDEPENDENCE, Devadasis are bought for sex. This is well documented and uncontroversial, and is what the sentence you keep removing in the introduction states. If you would like to add the words "Currently, post-independence" then this would be an acceptable expansion of that statement. The SEPARATE question of whether HISTORICALLY Devadasis were prostitutes is the subject of the bulk of this article. Viewpoints for and against this view are presented in the article. Your presentation as one of these viewpoints as fact in the introduction of this article directly controvenes Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Wikipedia is NOT a forum for political debate. It is an encyclopedia. You can't just go removing things you don't like because they don't support your political agenda. Your viewpoint is represented and documented thoroughly in the article. However you can't claim as a fact in the introduction that the viewpoint you support is correct and that the others are wrong. Can I suggest for now we remove both controversial statements from the introduction pending mediation? Jez Humble 12:19am, 15 January 2007 (IST). NB the following returned from a five second search of Google: http://www.hindu.com/2005/04/29/stories/2005042912820300.htm http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/19/stories/2006031905890300.htm http://www.thehindu.com/2006/12/31/stories/2006123113110500.htm
This is even more hilarious. You have indeed now made some attempt at restoring balance to the introduction of the article, which is good. Please note that I have not added a single thing to this article - I just restored a deletion you made, which I have cited several sources to support. So you cannot accuse me of any kind of POV. If you have any knowledge of Indian culture you know exactly what the sources in the Hindu are referring to, although clearly it's convenient for you to pretend ignorance. For other readers, here's some more articles for Rumpelstiltskin to accuse of "Anti-Hindu bias": http://www.ashanet.org/library/articles/devadasis.199812.html, http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring02/Chattaraj/index2.html, even though they are both written by Hindus (not that this is of any relevance). Until you are able to quote factual sources that discuss the Devadasi system in *modern India* which claim it has nothing to do with sex work, please refrain from launching ad hominem attacks on me. Firstly they make you look ignorant, and secondly I really couldn't care less because I am able to back up my position with citations and you are not. Jez Humble 1:47pm, 15 January 2007 (IST)
Addition:
Jezhumble 05:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)Jezhumble Agree.
A member of the Mediation Committee will indicate acceptance/rejection/other relevant notes in this section. Non-mediators should not edit this section.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Rejected. This is not a case for mediation. After quick look at the situation, it appears that Nightstallion is correct, per WP:NC. I also recommend you take a look at WP:OWN, Gndawydiak.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Rejected. Parties do not agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Reject: Parties do not agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Reject: Parties fail to agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Today I added 6 more relevant quotes from reliable sources to Talk:Zionist Occupation Government#More evidence of ZOG as antisemitic canard supporting my position, in addition to ample evidence presented earlier in the article and in Talk:Zionist Occupation Government#Anti-Semetic Canard Cat (sic). I believe that it is beneath my dignity to participate in this case. This is the only statement I will make here. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 11:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Reject: Parties fail to agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
N/A
Rejected: Parties do not all agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Rejected, improperly filed, as it only lists one party to the dispute, then the "Example" user.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
This is a bipartisan off-Wiki dispute brought to Wikipedia. Dean Hinnen claims to be the legal representative of one of the parties involved. His actions are seen by a number of admins as problematic, and that includes those who were a party to the discussions on the unblock list. I have no doubt that you will not be fooled by the slant that Hinnen puts on the dispute in his summary above, but he does appear to have forgotten to mention the off-Wiki dispute and his conflict of interest, so in fairness they need to be stated. Guy ( Help!) 16:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
This section is for the other party to add any issues that are not included above. User bullet points to add additional issues. This is not a response to the issues set out above, nor is it an opportunity to make a statment of the party's opinion, describe another user's actions, or state the history of the dispute. Only issues are to be added; as above, commentary on persons, rather than issues, will be removed by a member of the Mediation Committee. Excessive or spurrious commentary will also be removed. (Once again, only committee members may remove text from the RfM page.)
This section is for the other party to add any issues that are not included above. User bullet points to add additional issues. This is not a response to the issues set out above, nor is it an opportunity to make a statment of the party's opinion, describe another user's actions, or state the history of the dispute. Only issues are to be added; as above, commentary on persons, rather than issues, will be removed by a member of the Mediation Committee. Excessive or spurrious commentary will also be removed. (Once again, only committee members may remove text from the RfM page.)
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Reject: My reason is twofold. First and foremost, I do not see mediation as being a good venue for this. I honestly do not think anything productive would come of it, and I am of the opinion that we'd merely be rehasing arguments that have already been made. This came after reading into the dispute itself, and the failed MedCab request. Secondly, and of equal importance, I do not believe that Mediation is a place where something as mission-critical as policy can be decided/debated on. I suggest a much more public forum, such as a request for comment or on the village pump. In addition to this, I can answer your first and last questions here.
Buddhism processed through Taoism became Zen.
Buddhism processed through Taoism became Zen.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
There are other, equally reliable academics cited in the references to this article who dispute this. That is why representing a single point of view in the introductory paragraph counts as POV under wikipedia guidelines. Furthermore, the article you cite refers to *historical* discussions of devadasi status. *NOBODY debates the fact that in post-independence India Devadasis are basically prostitutes*, which is what the introductory paragraph correctly states. This is a clearly recorded fact, which is why the governments of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu etc. are working to stamp out this practice. It is clear from your editing history that you are a high-caste south Indian. Hence perhaps you feel ashamed about the statement you keep removing. I am British (although I live in India, pay Indian taxes and my partner is Indian). Depsite feeling ashamed about the activities of British people under colonialism, this does not give me the right to remove references to crimes committed by the British under the colonial regime. Please grow up. If you change this again, I will request mediation. Jez Humble 10:51am, 15 January 2007 (IST).
This is laughable. Are you accusing the governments of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu and a host of Indian Hindu academics of anti-Hindu bias? Devadasis are Hindus too. Are you accusing them of anti-Hindu bias? This is an encyclopedia of facts. You need to provide evidence of your view, not resort to name-calling. Unless you can provide evidence that in post-independence India it is not the case thet "upper-caste men have sexual intercourse with [Devadasis] for a price" then you should restore the statement. I repeat that *nobody* disputes this, and there are numberous references to this practice by Hindu human rights activists and in contemporary Indian newspapers. I have requested mediation for this article.
<Added by Rumpelstiltskin223> This is how the debate REALLY went down:
I have reverted the following change from the introduction: "Then, upper-caste men can have sexual intercourse with them for a price" was changed to "European colonialists associated this function with prostitution. However, notable scholars and feminist groups have largely debunked this assertion", since this is blatant POV. This sentence removed represents the "Revivalist" point of view, which is described at length in the article. I added the (single) reference given to the references section. This reference in any case cannot be used to justify "notable scholars and feminist groups" since it represents the view of a single person and the page referenced cites only a single source which is itself already referenced in this article. It should be noted that a great deal of modern academic work (referenced in this article) has been done by Indians, including Hindus, who are certainly not under the influence of European colonialists which demonstrate that in modern times "upper-caste men have sexual intercourse with [Devadasis] for a price" Jez Humble 12:31, 15 January 2007 (IST)
There are other, equally reliable academics cited in the references to this article who dispute this. That is why representing a single point of view in the introductory paragraph counts as POV under wikipedia guidelines. Furthermore, the article you cite refers to *historical* discussions of devadasi status. *NOBODY debates the fact that in post-independence India Devadasis are basically prostitutes*, which is what the introductory paragraph correctly states. This is a clearly recorded fact, which is why the governments of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu etc. are working to stamp out this practice. It is clear from your editing history that you are a high-caste south Indian. Hence perhaps you feel ashamed about the statement you keep removing. I am British (although I live in India, pay Indian taxes and my partner is Indian). Depsite feeling ashamed about the activities of British people under colonialism, this does not give me the right to remove references to crimes committed by the British under the colonial regime. Please grow up. If you change this again, I will request mediation. Jez Humble 10:51am, 15 January 2007 (IST).
This is laughable. Are you accusing the governments of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu and a host of Indian Hindu academics of anti-Hindu bias? Devadasis are Hindus too. Are you accusing them of anti-Hindu bias? This is an encyclopedia of facts. You need to provide evidence of your view, not resort to name-calling. Unless you can provide evidence that in post-independence India it is not the case thet "upper-caste men have sexual intercourse with [Devadasis] for a price" then you should restore the statement. I repeat that *nobody* disputes this, and there are numberous references to this practice by Hindu human rights activists and in contemporary Indian newspapers. I have requested mediation for this article.
Please do me the favour of reading what I say. I am saying, as is the article, that CURRENTLY, POST-INDEPENDENCE, Devadasis are bought for sex. This is well documented and uncontroversial, and is what the sentence you keep removing in the introduction states. If you would like to add the words "Currently, post-independence" then this would be an acceptable expansion of that statement. The SEPARATE question of whether HISTORICALLY Devadasis were prostitutes is the subject of the bulk of this article. Viewpoints for and against this view are presented in the article. Your presentation as one of these viewpoints as fact in the introduction of this article directly controvenes Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Wikipedia is NOT a forum for political debate. It is an encyclopedia. You can't just go removing things you don't like because they don't support your political agenda. Your viewpoint is represented and documented thoroughly in the article. However you can't claim as a fact in the introduction that the viewpoint you support is correct and that the others are wrong. Can I suggest for now we remove both controversial statements from the introduction pending mediation? Jez Humble 12:19am, 15 January 2007 (IST). NB the following returned from a five second search of Google: http://www.hindu.com/2005/04/29/stories/2005042912820300.htm http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/19/stories/2006031905890300.htm http://www.thehindu.com/2006/12/31/stories/2006123113110500.htm
This is even more hilarious. You have indeed now made some attempt at restoring balance to the introduction of the article, which is good. Please note that I have not added a single thing to this article - I just restored a deletion you made, which I have cited several sources to support. So you cannot accuse me of any kind of POV. If you have any knowledge of Indian culture you know exactly what the sources in the Hindu are referring to, although clearly it's convenient for you to pretend ignorance. For other readers, here's some more articles for Rumpelstiltskin to accuse of "Anti-Hindu bias": http://www.ashanet.org/library/articles/devadasis.199812.html, http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring02/Chattaraj/index2.html, even though they are both written by Hindus (not that this is of any relevance). Until you are able to quote factual sources that discuss the Devadasi system in *modern India* which claim it has nothing to do with sex work, please refrain from launching ad hominem attacks on me. Firstly they make you look ignorant, and secondly I really couldn't care less because I am able to back up my position with citations and you are not. Jez Humble 1:47pm, 15 January 2007 (IST)
Addition:
Jezhumble 05:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)Jezhumble Agree.
A member of the Mediation Committee will indicate acceptance/rejection/other relevant notes in this section. Non-mediators should not edit this section.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Rejected. This is not a case for mediation. After quick look at the situation, it appears that Nightstallion is correct, per WP:NC. I also recommend you take a look at WP:OWN, Gndawydiak.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Rejected. Parties do not agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Reject: Parties do not agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Reject: Parties fail to agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Today I added 6 more relevant quotes from reliable sources to Talk:Zionist Occupation Government#More evidence of ZOG as antisemitic canard supporting my position, in addition to ample evidence presented earlier in the article and in Talk:Zionist Occupation Government#Anti-Semetic Canard Cat (sic). I believe that it is beneath my dignity to participate in this case. This is the only statement I will make here. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 11:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Reject: Parties fail to agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
N/A
Rejected: Parties do not all agree to mediation.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Rejected, improperly filed, as it only lists one party to the dispute, then the "Example" user.
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
This is a bipartisan off-Wiki dispute brought to Wikipedia. Dean Hinnen claims to be the legal representative of one of the parties involved. His actions are seen by a number of admins as problematic, and that includes those who were a party to the discussions on the unblock list. I have no doubt that you will not be fooled by the slant that Hinnen puts on the dispute in his summary above, but he does appear to have forgotten to mention the off-Wiki dispute and his conflict of interest, so in fairness they need to be stated. Guy ( Help!) 16:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
This section is for the other party to add any issues that are not included above. User bullet points to add additional issues. This is not a response to the issues set out above, nor is it an opportunity to make a statment of the party's opinion, describe another user's actions, or state the history of the dispute. Only issues are to be added; as above, commentary on persons, rather than issues, will be removed by a member of the Mediation Committee. Excessive or spurrious commentary will also be removed. (Once again, only committee members may remove text from the RfM page.)
This section is for the other party to add any issues that are not included above. User bullet points to add additional issues. This is not a response to the issues set out above, nor is it an opportunity to make a statment of the party's opinion, describe another user's actions, or state the history of the dispute. Only issues are to be added; as above, commentary on persons, rather than issues, will be removed by a member of the Mediation Committee. Excessive or spurrious commentary will also be removed. (Once again, only committee members may remove text from the RfM page.)
This is a hard copy of a request for mediation which was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Rejected requests are substituted to these archives of rejected requests, then deleted. Please do not remove this tag or edit this request for any reason. To request mediation of this dispute, please submit a new request. |
Reject: My reason is twofold. First and foremost, I do not see mediation as being a good venue for this. I honestly do not think anything productive would come of it, and I am of the opinion that we'd merely be rehasing arguments that have already been made. This came after reading into the dispute itself, and the failed MedCab request. Secondly, and of equal importance, I do not believe that Mediation is a place where something as mission-critical as policy can be decided/debated on. I suggest a much more public forum, such as a request for comment or on the village pump. In addition to this, I can answer your first and last questions here.
Buddhism processed through Taoism became Zen.
Buddhism processed through Taoism became Zen.