-
Chuck Garcia (
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Promotional page for non-notable engineer and public speaker. I couldn't find any reliable sources via Google News or Newsbank Database (wider and deeper than Google). Fails
WP:ANYBIO,
WP:NPROF,
WP:AUTHOR.
Cabrils (
talk)
00:15, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
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Radio,
Engineering, and
New York.
WCQuidditch
☎
✎
05:27, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. Notability not apparent yet.
Xxanthippe (
talk)
06:26, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. The only thing in the article that looks like it could plausibly lead to notability is authorship of two books, The Moment That Defines Your Life and A Climb to the Top. But my searches of the web, news, and scholarly sources failed to find any reliably published reviews of either book, so I don't think he passes
WP:AUTHOR. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:43, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete for failing to meet any relevant notability standard and reeking of promotionalism. The second book was published through "Advantage Media Group", which ticks a lot of boxes for being a vanity press, starting with
a "book publishing services" website full of "synergize your brand potentialities" language that makes me want to gouge out my eyes with a rusty spoon. Even a self-published book could contribute to notability if it were reliably reviewed, of course, but that is not the case here. Wikipedia is not LinkedIn.
XOR'easter (
talk)
22:19, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
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Iyke Nathan Uzorma (
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If all of the unsourced claims of supernatural abilities were removed from this article, I'm not sure what would be left. Until recently, this was a redirect to a book but has become the focus of a single purpose editor.
Counterfeit Purses (
talk)
21:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Biographical Information and Publications: Key details about his early life that are supported by verifiable sources such as books can be found online from Google Books.
Geswith (
talk)
23:19, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Biographical Information and Publications: Key details about his early life that are supported by verifiable sources such as books can be found online from Google Books and credible news from Nigeria such as Punch newspapers.
Geswith (
talk)
23:22, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - A
WP:BEFORE search does not reveal significant coverage in reliable sources. The current sourcing of the article is not enough to meet notability criteria for
WP:GNG,
WP:NACADEMIC, nor
WP:NAUTHOR. The three book citations were all written by him, and about him and are self-published by Xlibris Corporation, not a reliable publisher. One source is a wikipedia mirror wiki (user submitted content) and the "All Christian Quotes" website is also user-submitted content. There is one possible reliable source (Punch) but that is not enough to pass WP standards for notability. The article is
WP:PROMO and largely unsourced, it may contain original research or possibly be a COI creation.
Netherzone (
talk)
23:36, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete: Completely fails
WP:NAUTHOR and
WP:BASIC. Haven't found a single independent source about him. A7 may apply here because I do not see a credible claim of significance.
C F A
💬
23:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- these are independent sources.
- kindly check this one:
- Okeke, Chukwuemeka. (2018). Spiritual Leaders of Modern Africa. African Scholars Press. ISBN 978-978-12345-6-7.
- Offers insights into the lives and influences of contemporary African spiritual leaders, including Iyke Nathan Uzorma. [Reference to specific pages: p. 102-110 for discussion on Uzorma’s influence.]
- Nwankwo, Stella. (2021). The Role of Charitable Works in Modern Christianity. Faith and Hope Publications. ISBN 978-987-65432-1-0.
- Discusses Uzorma’s philanthropic efforts through Mercy Store House. [Reference to specific pages: p. 78-85 for information on his charity work.]
- Johnson, Elizabeth. (2019). Biographical Profiles of Notable Nigerian Figures. Lagos Publishing House. ISBN 978-978-43210-9-8.
- Contains a biographical profile of Iyke Nathan Uzorma, including his early life and career. [Reference to specific pages: p. 56-65 for detailed biography.]
- Adeyemi, Solomon. (2022). Religious Transformations in Nigeria. West African Press. ISBN 978-978-87654-3-2.
- Examines religious figures and transformations in Nigeria, including Uzorma’s role in the broader context. [Reference to specific pages: p. 90-100 for context on Uzorma’s religious journey.]
-
Geswith (
talk)
23:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- @
Geswith: How do you know of
Iyke Nathan Uzorma?
C F A
💬
23:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- i have been researching him for a long time. most of his claims have been substantiated by people all over the world.
Geswith (
talk)
23:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- @
Geswith, it seems from the portrait of him in the article - your "own work", that you do have some connection to him deeper than just researching him. Please explain.
Netherzone (
talk)
02:27, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- @
Geswith, I can't find any of those books in an online search. I tried searching by title, and by author and by ISBN number but came up cold. Could you please provide links so that they can be verified. Thank you.
Netherzone (
talk)
01:50, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- @
Netherzone: I don't think these are real books. Look at the ISBNs: "978-978-12345-6-7", "978-987-65432-1-0", "978-978-87654-3-2", "978-978-43210-9-8". I also can't find anything about their publishers. They look like hallucinations by ChatGPT or something similar.
C F A
💬
01:55, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I agree, @
CFA, I could not find any of these publishing houses either. Do you think this is a hoax article or just a lot of AI hallucinations?
Netherzone (
talk)
01:58, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Well, the person seems to
exist, but I have no clue if the information is accurate or not because there are no references aside from the "books" above. I imagine the creator has some sort of conflict of interest and most of it is original research. Regardless, it is safe to say they are not notable.
C F A
💬
02:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- You mean you can't confirm his "encounters with what he describes as advanced extraterrestrial intelligences or angelic beings of light"?
Counterfeit Purses (
talk)
02:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- sorry for the late response. i will definitely get you the proof you require.
Geswith (
talk)
05:48, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete, obviously or per
WP:V if I have to provide a rationale. I found this AfD through the academic deletion sorting list so I was curious how in particular he qualified as an academic. I find it interesting that the supposed "St Thomas-a-Becket University, Canterbury, England" that our article claims him to be a professor of has greater evidence of existing in Nigeria than in England. But I suppose that's far from the sketchiest part of this story. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
06:18, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - clear COI here and serious lack of notability. The two universities that he is supposedly associated with don't seem to exist outside of self-published sources about Uzorma himself. There is nothing here to justify a Wikipedia article.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider)
09:48, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. Not enough
WP:SIGCOV from reliable sources to meet
WP:GNG. The article is presently undergoing editing, only 1 source remains as of this time, punchng.com, which may be the only source that may have some claim to reliability.
Prof.PMarini (
talk)
10:27, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Punch is listed as generally reliable in
Wikipedia:WikiProject Nigeria/Nigerian sources but the article is essentially a long extended quote from the subject; it has no depth of coverage about the subject. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:33, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
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Eric Sink (
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A
WP:BEFORE search failed to find any significant coverage of this
biography article to meet
WP:NBASIC. The most I could find were blog reviews of his books and interviews, which fail the threshold of significant independent sourcing.
-1ctinus📝
🗨
15:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
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Ronald S. Mangum (
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The main notability claim here that I see is signing the open letter about Biden's health but his role isn't that large in that event
WP:ONEEVENT
Everything else is fairly
run-of-the-mill
Then of course there is the admitted CoI editing and page creation.
D1551D3N7 (
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23:04, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
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D1551D3N7 (
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23:04, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
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WCQuidditch
☎
✎
04:22, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. We have no evidence of the depth of independent coverage that would be needed for
WP:GNG, the scholarly impact or recognition that would be needed for
WP:PROF, or the reviews of his books that would be needed for
WP:AUTHOR, and my searches failed to turn up anything else. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
Janet Frost (
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Fails to pass the
notability guidelines for academics. While the article says that she was a 'Distinguished Professor', none of the sources nor the Capital Community College website match that.
Sgubaldo (
talk)
11:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete: All sources are either published by the subject or close relatives. A cursory google search did not turn up more either.
JackTheSecond (
talk)
12:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. A few minutes ago I indicated in the discussion of two dissertations why I didn't think she was notable enough for an article.
Athel cb (
talk)
13:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. I don't think distinguished professor at a community college should count for
WP:PROF#C5 and we have no documentation of that title, nor evidence of any other form of notability. Searching Google Scholar for her publications found nothing of note, instead mostly finding publications by some five other people named Janet Frost (themselves not cited heavily enough for WP:PROF). —
David Eppstein (
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17:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
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WCQuidditch
☎
✎
19:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- 'Delete per above at this point, tbdesu.
jp×
g
🗯️
16:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete I could not substantiate the "Distinguished Professor" title, or indeed find any evidence that the college in question even awards that title. That claim may well have been
"AI" bullshitting. None of the other
WP:PROF criteria appear to be met, either.
XOR'easter (
talk)
22:02, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
Douglas Jones (physician) (
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Creator blocked for UPE. No coverage of the subject easily found and cited sources don't seem to say anything about the subject but I'm out of my depth assessing notability in this field but none of the clams in the article seem extraordinary.
HJ Mitchell |
Penny for your thoughts?
17:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per nom, Qflib. Further, in a search via Newsbank (wider and deeper than Google) I did find some 20 articles in the Ogden, Utah, regional paper The Standard-Examiner that reference and/or quote Jones' opinion in relation to allergies, but to me they seem very much ROTM for a community doctor. Nothing to meet
WP:PROF. I neither could find any book reviews that would meet
WP:AUTHOR. That the page creator has been blocked for UPE leaves an unpleasant taste too.
Cabrils (
talk)
00:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
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Alyy Patel (
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WP:BLP of an activist and writer, not
properly referenced as passing inclusion criteria for activists or writers. As always, people are not "inherently" notable just because they exist, and have to be shown to pass
WP:GNG on third-party coverage about their work in
reliable sources independent of themselves. That is, you do not make a writer notable by sourcing her writing to itself as proof that it exists, you make a writer notable by sourcing her writing to coverage and analysis about her writing, such as news articles about her, analytical reviews of her writing in newspapers or magazines or academic journals, and on and so forth -- and you don't make an activist notable by sourcing her activism to the
self-published websites of the organizations she has been directly affiliated with, you make an activist notable by sourcing her activism to third-party coverage about it, such as news articles about her, book content about her, and on and so forth. But this is supported entirely by primary sources with absolutely no evidence of GNG-worthy coverage shown at all: 11 of the footnotes are just the publication details of her own writing, and a 12th is just the publication details of an anthology that one of her pieces was in; one is a Q&A interview in which she's talking about herself in the first person, which would be acceptable for use if the other sourcing around it were better but does not help to get her over GNG in and of itself per
WP:INTERVIEWS; another is just a YouTube video clip of her speaking, which she self-published to her own YouTube channel; and all of the rest is content self-published by non-media organizations she's directly connected to -- which means absolutely none of the footnotes are GNG-compliant at all. Again, the notability test doesn't reside in the things she did, it resides in the amount of GNG-worthy coverage she has or hasn't received about the things she did, and nothing stated here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt her from having to be referenced better than this. Also note that normally I would just have sandboxed this in draftspace as improperly sourced, but another editor has already done that and the creator just immediately unsandboxed it right back into mainspace without actually improving the sourcing.
Bearcat (
talk)
15:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Keep:
- - more Sources got added, below are two more Interviews
- -
https://www.friesenpress.com/blog/2023/6/27/alyy-patel-author-interview
- -
https://urbanasian.com/crown-the-brown/2020/02/valentines-pride-praanee-and-alyy-were-desi-gender-fluid-in-love/
Cupkake4Yoshi (
talk)
10:41, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Interviews are not
WP:GNG-building sourcing. A source has to represent somebody else talking about her in the third person, not her talking about herself or something else in the first.
Bearcat (
talk)
16:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
Nori Bunasawa (
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The article seems to have started out as draft created by
110347nbtough in November 2020, who subsequently seemed to claim they were Bunasawa himself over on Wikimedia Commons
here and
here. The draft was then approved by
DN27ND about a month later, even though the DN27ND account was only four days old and seems to have no experience as an
WP:AFC reviewer. Moreover, DN27ND is an
WP:SPA whose primary focus on
English Wikipedia,
Wikimedia Commons and
Japanese Wikipedia has been creating/editing content about Bunasawa; in other words, it seems that the account was specifically and only created for that purpose.I wasn't sure about the subject's Wikipedia notablity per
WP:BIO and asked about the article at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts#Nori Bunasawa. DN27ND was pinged into the discussion but never responded. It was then suggested on my
user talk page that the article be nominated for deletion. I tried some more
WP:BEFORE but found nothing resembling significant coverage. I also tried looking at the Japanese Wikipedia article
ja:樗沢憲昭 and the Egyptian Arabic Wikiepdia article
arz:نورى_بوناساوا but found nothing resembling significant coverage being cited in either of them. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
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Marchjuly (
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12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
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Marchjuly (
talk)
12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Keep Potential COI issues aside, the subject evidently seems to be a notable coach at Olympic and World Championship level, and for US colleges. Other pursuits as a magazine publisher/author and film consultant (?) would probably not rise to notability themselves, but the coverage for all three careers being mostly in 50+ year old newspapers – paired with the subject being otherwise covered by not only non-English, but non-Latin-alphabet, media – would be the AGF reason for fewer substantial sources (which is satisfactory here). The article could do with some clean-up, but from a glancing view I would also say it is not short on sources for its coverage, and that the coverage generally indicates notability.
Kingsif (
talk)
13:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
Collapsing a large amount of bludgeoning content from an editor now pblocked from the discussion (as well as a smaller number of replies from other editors to the bludgeoning).
Daniel (
talk)
06:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- There is no conflict of interest. I'm not getting paid by Bunasawa. In order to get leads on sources and information, we do have a working relationship (as a reporter would on their subject) where I could reach out and obtain information. I do have drafts of other judokas in the works but am working on securing their contact information in order to get additional leads to sources and information.
- There are multiple sources online in various languages (English, Japanese, Russian, etc.) which indicates notability.
- Bunasawa's involvement as a leader of judo in the USA
-
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/may/12/ichiban-sports-complex-shares-strange-s/
-
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=qNUDAAAAMBAJ&q=bunasawa&pg=PA38&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=bunasawa&f=false
- Bunasawa as a co-novelist
-
https://www.abebooks.com/9780964898424/Toughest-Man-Who-Lived-Nori-096489842X/plp#:~:text=A%20book%20about%20Conde%20Koma,force%20in%20the%20martial%20arts.
- Bunasawa's involvement in "Dead or Alive"
-
https://www.judoinside.com/judoka/90786/Noriaki_Bunasawa/judo-career
- Bunasawa and José Padilha
-
https://www.instagram.com/p/Crg9KAmBek5/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
- José Padilha as the director on the BJJ-Judo movie project
-
https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62362469/
-
https://about.netflix.com/en/news/jos%C3%A9-padilha-attached-to-write-and-direct-feature-film-dead-or-alive-with-greg-silvermans-stampede-for-netflix
-
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/narcos-director-jose-padilha-tackling-netflix-jiu-jitsu-movie-dead-alive-1181926/
- Nori Bunasawa's involvement in the movie industry
-
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm12094236/
- Russian sources on Bunasawa's movies
-
https://www.kinopoisk.ru/film/4294861/?utm_referrer=www.google.com
-
https://en.kinorium.com/2680888/cast/
- Japanese sources on Bunasawa's accomplishment and career
- Shindo, Kenichi (October 3, 2020). "青春スクロール 市立浦和高校". Asahi Shimbun.
- Kudo, Raisuke (September 10, 1969). "日本代表決まる". The Judo Shimbun.
-
https://www.judo-ch.jp/result/ajsc/men1970.shtml
- Russian news media company reporting on Bunasawa's comments and opinions
-
https://sputniknews.jp/20190902/6634165.html
- Bunasawa is notable for his involvement in the sport of judo and for his involvement in the movie industry.
- There are no COI issues and I sent him a draft on the article as a courtesy, in order to have a working relationship with him for leads on additional sources and for information regarding judo sports figures of which there will be wiki articles published in the future.
DN27ND (
talk)
05:03, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I also advised Bunasawa and his newspaper/magazine publishing team to create a wikipedia account in order for them to release some of the photos that they own to wikimedia commons.
DN27ND (
talk)
05:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I received information that Nori Bunasawa and his newspaper/magazine publishing company owns the photos that he uploaded and that were deleted off of wikimedia commons.
DN27ND (
talk)
06:00, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- And that he is in the process of consulting with his lawyers based in the USA.
DN27ND (
talk)
06:02, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Being paid is not the only criterion for conflict of interest. See
WP:EXTERNALREL. I think the fact that you have a working relationship with this person and especially that you showed the subject of the article a draft itself (presumably for feedback, considering you asked for leads on missing info) is concerning.
- The tone in the article has issues with
WP:WTW; "dream team", "talented group", "further his education" are unencyclopedic and lean towards
WP:PUFFERY.
- Whether or not there actually is a COI is debatable, but even the scent of one can ruin your credibility on Wikipedia. You really should be more cautious in future.
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
09:33, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- "dream team" is a common phrase that was originally used to describe the 1992 Basketball Olympic team which swept the competition, and then has been adapted by culture to apply to various sports and teams to mean a team that has won by a large margin over opponents. Given the context and the results of the 1969 World Judo Championships in Mexico city, (this only happed twice in the history of the sport) this is an appropriate phrase to use to describe the events.
- The phrase is also used in other wikipedia articles
-
/info/en/?search=1992_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
-
/info/en/?search=United_States_men%27s_national_basketball_team#Dream_Team_II
-
/info/en/?search=1996_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
-
/info/en/?search=FIFA_World_Cup_Dream_Team
-
/info/en/?search=Iran_men%27s_national_sitting_volleyball_team
- and the list goes on:
-
/info/en/?search=Dream_Team
- Would it be puffery to describe the 1992 US Olympic dream team as "talented"? Or would it be appropriate to describe any other sports team as talented on wikipedia?
-
/info/en/?search=1992_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
- "Opposing teams were nonetheless overwhelmed by the talent of the American roster, losing by an average of 43.8 points per game"
-
/info/en/?search=United_States_men%27s_national_basketball_team#Dream_Team_II
- "The team assembled by USA Basketball for the tournament in Barcelona in 1992 was one of the most illustrious collections of talent assembled in the history of international sport"
-
/info/en/?search=1996_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
- "USA Basketball officials sought to construct the team dubbed Dream Team III (Dream Team II was the moniker of the lesser-known 1994 FIBA World Championship team) with a winning combination of veteran players from the 1992 Dream Team that won the gold medal in Barcelona and some of the league's best young talent."
- "When the first ten players of the 1996 United States Men's national basketball team roster were announced in the summer of 1995, that young talent, and first-time Olympians, included the likes of Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Shaquille O'Neal, and Gary Payton"
- Regarding the phrase "further his education", there are sources that Bunasawa attended these universities after receiving a bachelors degree. If that isn't further one's education, then what is?
- Are you saying that journalists never show their subjects a draft to ensure the correct sequence of events?
- Please advise.
DN27ND (
talk)
11:33, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- We're not journalists. Wikipedia is
WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. We're actually allowed to describe people as talented, but not in Wikipedia's voice per
WP:NPOV. You have to attribute those kinds of opinions to notable people, like "journalist x described y as talented".
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
13:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Also "Dream Team" I can concede on, but other flowery wordings I'm relatively confident in. When you're already bordering on having a COI, you should be paranoid about writing stuff that borders on excessively flattering or flowery, but you're not doing adequate due diligence.
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
13:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- The selection of the word "talent" in that context was to summarize the accomplishments of those selected to be on the 1969 Japan World Judo team and in that particular year. How else would you summarize a collection of people that had multiple world titles, and had multiple Olympic gold medals? In retrospect, even most of the alternatives selected as backups went on to win world titles in subsequent championships. To choose the "talented" word, is this not appropriate considering the results that these players had?
- Considering the results of sporting competitions, is it "flowery" to describe Lebron James, Michael Jordan, Tom Brady, Cristiano Ronaldo, Lionel Messi, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, etc., as talented without having to say "journalist x described y as talented".?These sporting figures have won multiple world and Olympic titles in their respective sport.
- At the end of the day, we are not journalist but the human aspect still applies. Courtesy and respect towards one's subject goes a long way. Just because a writer chooses to show courtesy and respect towards the subject he is writing about, it doesn't mean there is a COI.
- If a person chooses to take more college courses after achieving a Bachelor's degree, how would you describe that if not "furthering his education" ? There is newspaper evidence that Bunasawa was taking more university level courses while simultaneously coaching the varsity judo team.
- Could you give other examples of "flowery" wording from the article?
DN27ND (
talk)
18:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- There is also no "personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial" COI. It is common in journalism to keep good relationships (ie protection of anonymity of whistleblowers) with one's subjects/sources in order to further obtain information from them. There is precedence (especially in sports) of subjects denying access of information to journalists who may be rude, disrespectful, etc. Some of the information taken from newspaper sources, sports media sources (ie ESPN) require journalists to be able to contact sports figures for information.
DN27ND (
talk)
11:44, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Per above, we're not journalists
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
13:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- We are not journalists. The info on wikipedia articles are not primary sources (birth certificates, actual signed contracts, actual college diplomas, identity cards, actual competition brackets etc). These are citations to newspapers and magazines, which are written by sports journalists or reporters. These are secondary and tertiary sources.
- If wikipedia contributors are able to use primary sources, it would make writing these articles easier and actually more accurate (since I could just upload the proof)
- Even though we are not journalist, having courtesy and respect towards one's subject could yield leads to information which would make summarizing events easier and more accurate.
DN27ND (
talk)
18:38, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Since wikipedia contributors aren't allowed to upload primary sources, in essence we are using journalist's opinions (ie journalist from the NY times, OC register, People magazine, Asahi Shimbun, Wall Street Journal, etc) as sources of evidence. Do you think the vetting process to obtain a journalist / reporter pass from these companies is strenuous?
- In essence, it would be way easier, "neutral", and encyclopedic if wikipedia contributers were able to use primary sources as evidence rather than secondary, or tertiary sources written by "experts" hired by these media companies.
DN27ND (
talk)
18:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Check out the results of the 1969 Judo World Championships
-
/info/en/?search=1969_World_Judo_Championships
- Is that not a podium sweep where one team had a decisive victory over the other teams? That is the time of only 2 times this has happened in the sports history. If the phrases "dream team" or "talented group" is not appropriate to describe the sporting results. Perhaps those words need to be censored from all other wikipedia articles about sports where these words have been used to describe competition results.
DN27ND (
talk)
12:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- That 1969 World Judo team had multiple World and Olympic champions on them. In the sport of judo, the World Championships are regarded as a more difficult achievement than the Olympics due to their respective qualification processes.
DN27ND (
talk)
12:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- You have been updating many articles on wikipedia regarding Korean poltics. Everyone knows about the history of the Japanese-Korean rivalry. This is not the thread to hold a grudge.
- This is the article is for the sport of judo. You are biased and you have a political agenda.
DN27ND (
talk)
22:30, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- There are also many other newspaper and magazine articles that show Bunasawa's notability on the wikipedia article.
- Rezell, John (March 3, 1988). "Top Judo Instructor comes to the defense of self-defense". Orange County Register.
- "Judo". Orange Network. 385: 7. April 2023.
- New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975
- "Instructor on Show". Rogers Daily News. April 1975.
- I could scan these newspaper articles and send them to you. Or you can go into the library archives and look them up yourself.
DN27ND (
talk)
12:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Notice: I didn't question the person's notability. I'm questioning COI and your understanding of Wikipedia's editing style. These walls of text and excessive bolding are not necessary; I can read.
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
13:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Yes, but the original poster (Marchjuly) did question notability and it is part of this page's discussion
- "I wasn't sure about the subject's Wikipedia notablity per
WP:BIO and asked about the article at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts#Nori Bunasawa. DN27ND was pinged into the discussion but never responded"
- People have occupations, other obligations, and commenting on wikipedia doesn't pay the bills. I'm not sure if Marchjuly was expecting an immediate response or what?
DN27ND (
talk)
18:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- You're doubling down on the walls of text and bolding. I can read. I'm still confident in what I said, will not engage anymore. Good luck.
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
23:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Whether the "working relationship" described by DN27ND consitutes a conflict (at least in regard to Wikipedia editing) per
WP:COI is porbably something that needs to be further discussed at
WP:COIN. I will start a discusison about it sometime within the next few days. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
04:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Please don't scan any newspaper articles and then upload them to either Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons because doing so is likely going to be considered a copyright violation. Please also don't reproduce verbatim any of these sources are any Wikipedia page, except perhaps as short and properly attributed quotes in accordance with
MOS:QUOTE because that too will almost certainly be considered a copyright violation. If you can find these sources online somewhere (perhaps a site like
Newspapers.com), you can perhaps posts links them as long as there are no
WP:COPYLINK issues. You can also summarize these sources in your own words at
Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Nori Bunasawa (the link is
WP:RED because the page doesn't exist yet). I will ask at
Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request to see whether anyone might be able to find the Orange County Register, Indiana Evening Gazette, Orange Network and Rogers Daily News articles and provide either a link or an assessment of them. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
04:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- For the sources that are online, I've already linked them to the page.
- '''Orange County Register, Indiana Evening Gazette, Orange Network and Rogers Daily News'''
- These sources are not online and some of the Japanese sources are not online either. I received them as newspaper clippings. The dates and issues are included. You could try to call the local libraries in those counties and can talk to the librarian about sending you those papers.
- Orange County Register has a webpage. Perhaps they might have online achieves. I have photographs of the newspaper clippings.
- The Indiana Evening Gazette has online achieves. I have not looked at it because I have access to the scanned newspaper clippings.
- The Orange Network is associated with the Orange County Japanese American Association. You can give them a call or search their website to see if they keep their old issues on pdf.
- Rogers Daily News is the local paper from Rogers, Ark. that was published from 1927-1981. You can try to call the local library in that city, perhaps they have archives
- I have them as clippings, scans, and photos taken by a camera phone.
- There are actually much more newspaper articles that were written about Bunasawa in the newspapers, such as a time one of his teen students used judo in self defense against an assault, and many much more. Just because some of the sources are from 25 to 35 years ago, and before the time of the internet, doesn't make Bunasawa a less "notable" sport and martial arts figure.
- The information is all there if you want to do the research and look hard enough. Also finding people (through connections) who have saved these newspaper clippings, especially for people who existed before the internet does wonders when writing up a biography.
- Have fun on your search
DN27ND (
talk)
18:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- There are also a few other english language papers in California stating that Bunasawa was a pre-medical student while coaching Judo. I haven't included all the sources and kept it general via "furthering his education" as some papers cited stated that he was a uni student in the USA.
- If its THAT important to you, you can call Bunsawa's assistants to see if you can obtain his university diploma at Waseda University, then cross reference the dates of the newspaper sources that stated that he was a student in the USA, then voilà, you have inferred that he "furthered his education"
- You can look in the biographical section of his book as well
- Bunasawa, Nori; Murray, John (2007). The Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. Nevada:
Innovations, Inc. and
Judo Journal. p. 299.
ISBN
978-0-9648984-1-7.
DN27ND (
talk)
18:27, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
DN27ND, to be blunt, no one is going to read through all of this confusing content you posted, it's overwhelming. You need to be concise. There are a lot of AFDs to look through and this is just one. Editors are much likely to rely on the source analysis table below, which concisely presents information in a way everyone can understand.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
05:29, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- No problem
- Just added a new source that reinstates all the info already cited in the article
- Fears, Randy (October 1975). "U.S. Judo team". Rogers Daily News
DN27ND (
talk)
18:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I'll enjoy following the source analysis table
DN27ND (
talk)
19:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- Keep The subject of the articles is notable as a US coach at the Olympic, World, and collegiate levels. He is also involved in the movie industry and has multiple credits. His The Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. Is in the process of being adapted into a motion picture.
- Citations on his coaching career
- Rezell, John (March 3, 1988). "Top Judo Instructor comes to the defense of self-defense". Orange County Register.
- "Judo". Orange Network. 385: 7. April 2023.
- New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975
- "Instructor on Show". Rogers Daily News. April 1975.
- Citations & evidence on his involvement in the motion picture industry
-
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm12094236/
- Bunasawa's involvement in "Dead or Alive"
-
https://www.judoinside.com/judoka/90786/Noriaki_Bunasawa/judo-career
- José Padilha as the director on the BJJ-Judo movie project
-
https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62362469/
-
https://about.netflix.com/en/news/jos%C3%A9-padilha-attached-to-write-and-direct-feature-film-dead-or-alive-with-greg-silvermans-stampede-for-netflix
-
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/narcos-director-jose-padilha-tackling-netflix-jiu-jitsu-movie-dead-alive-1181926/
-
DN27ND (
talk)
23:34, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I have added the following source assessment table for many of the additional sources cited above by DN27ND. It doesn't cover all of the sources DN27ND mentioned, but I'll keep searching online for links for those not in the table. I used Google translate for the one Russian source since I don't understand Russian, but am able to read the Japanese sources unassisted. The assessments are mine and I tried to give detailed explanations as to the reasons why I made them. The table's last column "Count source toward GNG?" is an assessment done by the table itself. An explanation of it's computed can be found at
Template:Source assess#"Overall" assessment.
|
Source
|
Independent?
|
Reliable?
|
Significant coverage?
|
Count source toward
GNG?
|
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/may/12/ichiban-sports-complex-shares-strange-s/
|
Independently published newspaper article
|
2016 article in
Arkansas Democrat Gazette
|
Bunasawa in mentioned by name twice, but the main focus of the article is Willard Robertson and the Ichiban Sports Complex. Bunasawa is mentioned as being won of several "experts" Robertson brought in to work at the complex. Doesn't meet
WP:SIGCOV but might be OK to use as a RS for certain article content.
|
✘ No
|
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=qNUDAAAAMBAJ&q=bunasawa&pg=PA38&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=bunasawa&f=false
|
Independently published magazine article
|
Four-page article titled "Title techniques" in the July 1978 issue of
Black Belt (magazine)
|
? Three of the four pages are photos of Bunsawa demonstrating some technique, but the first page is part interview and part biographical material. Not sure this qualifies as sigcov per se, but it seems enough of a RS to support some article content. The quoted parts of the article though probably need to be treated as
WP:ABOUTSELF.
|
? Unknown
|
https://www.abebooks.com/9780964898424/Toughest-Man-Who-Lived-Nori-096489842X/plp#:~:text=A%20book%20about%20Conde%20Koma,force%20in%20the%20martial%20arts
|
?
AbeBooks page about the book Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. The paragraph on the book appears to be
WP:UGC content
|
? Could possibly be used to support Bunasawa co-writing the book
|
Not close to being sigcov for either
WP:GNG or
WP:NAUTHOR
|
✘ No
|
https://www.judoinside.com/judoka/90786/Noriaki_Bunasawa/judo-career
|
? Has a fansite feel to it.
|
? Niche website which looks like UGC content, but might be conisdered a RS for Judo.
|
Brief profile blurb that might be OK as a RS for certain article content but isn't close to being sigcov.
|
✘ No
|
https://www.instagram.com/p/Crg9KAmBek5/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D
|
Instagram account that appears to be connected to Bunasawa.
|
? UGC and
WP:SPS type of source that only could be used per
WP:ABOUTSELF
|
Not close to being sigcov
|
✘ No
|
https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62362469/
|
IMDb blurb about
this 2019
The Hollywood Reporter article
|
? Original article is probably a good source for content about the movie, but there's nothing in the article about Bunasawa; so, trying to use this to support content about Bunasawa's involvement with the film seems to be
WP:SYN.
|
Not close to being signcov
|
✘ No
|
https://about.netflix.com/en/news/jos%C3%A9-padilha-attached-to-write-and-direct-feature-film-dead-or-alive-with-greg-silvermans-stampede-for-netflix
|
?
Netflix PR blurb about film
|
? Like the above source, might be for content about the film as
WP:PRIMARY source, but makes no mention of Bunasawa.
|
Not close to being sigcov
|
✘ No
|
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm12094236/
|
Bunasawa's IMDb page
|
IMDb pages are generally not considered RS per
WP:IMDB
|
Not close ot being sigcov
|
✘ No
|
https://www.kinopoisk.ru/film/4294861/
|
? Russian language movie website
|
? Looks to be similar to IMDb, and bascially just a cast/crew list for the 1990 film
Martial Marshal (seems to also be called Judo Justice). Bunasawa isn't mentioned at all
|
Not close to being sigcov
|
✘ No
|
https://en.kinorium.com/2680888/cast/
|
? Another movie database type site
|
? Appear to be an IMDb type site. Bunasawa in listed by name in the "Cast" section as playing "Gonji Tamashita" but nothing more.
|
? Not close to being sigcov
|
? Unknown
|
https://4kou.jp/news/434/ (link is to high school's alumni association's website which scanned and reposted the article. An April 2021 archived version of the article from the Asahi Shimbun website can be found
here.)
|
September 2020 article/feature in the Saitama edition of the Japanese newspaper
Asahi Shimbun
|
The Asahi Shimbun is certainly a RS, but this seems to have appeared only in a local edition of the paper for
Saitama Prefecture. It's also primarily about the one of the area's local high school's and the school's alumni. There are five half-pages and Bunasawa is mentioned (there's a photo of him as well) on the fifth half-page along with others (including his older brother) who were involved in the school's judo club. This could be a RS to support article content about Bunasawa having a brother, going to this particular high school, or some other associated article content.
|
? There's more converage about Bunasawa in this particular article than there's is in perhaps many of the other sources mentioned above, but it doesn't seem to be sigcov.
|
? Unknown
|
https://www.judo-ch.jp/result/ajsc/men1970.shtml
|
? Database-like site of judo competition results
|
? Appears to be a UGC type of site, but might be considered reliable for articles about judo competitions。Bunsawa is mentioned by name once for finishing runner up in the light-weight class of a 1969 judo tournament in Fukuoka, Japan.
|
Not close to being sigcov
|
✘ No
|
https://sputniknews.jp/20190902/6634165.html
|
? August 2019 piece by
Sputnik (news agency)
|
Site isn't considered reliable per
WP:SPUTNIK but not clear whether that applies to judo. The Wikipedia article about the site states it's frequently described as a "propaganda outlet" that's currently banned in the EU. This might have more to do with other things than judo though. The article is only a few paragraphs long and quotes Bunasawa a couple of times (as an "expert" perhaps) on how non-Japanese judokas can prepare to beat their Japanese counterparts at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.
|
Not close to being sigcov
|
✘ No
|
https://www.ocjaa.org/orange-network
|
Piece in the April 2023 issue of a magazine/newsletter put out by the
Orange County Japanese American Association.
|
? This would appear to be UGC content with very little if any kind of rigorous editorial control. I don't think the OCJAA would knowingly post anything false, but they might not have the capability to the type of strenuous fact checking expected of a RS. It's certainly doesn't seem to be a major news publication; it doesn't even seem to be close to the level of the
Rafu Shimpo. It's published in Japanese and its target audience is most likely Japanese-Americans, Japanese nationals or other Japanese speakers living/working in the area. The April 2023 issue in which the the article "Judo" is supposed to appear isn't available any longer on the OCJAA website, but the cover can be seen
here. I tried to see if I could find an archived version of of the issue from an archived version of the main page like
this one from June 2023 or
this one from April 2024 and work backwards, but had no luck.
|
? Hard to assess whether the article is sigcov, but from looking at some recent issues still available online like
july 2024,
June 2024,
May 2024 and
April 2024, the "magazine" appears to be mainly advertisements and event listing with a few stories/interviews thrown in. There's a good chance the "Judo" article was an part interview and part general interest piece that had some biographical information about Bunasawa but nothing resembling the sigcov to help establish Wikipedia notability.
|
? Unknown
|
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{
source assess table}}.
|
--
Marchjuly (
talk)
03:07, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Lean delete per table above, unless it is updated with other sources. The COI is a contributing factor. DN27ND, please do not try to convince me otherwise of COI, you had several essays worth of space to do so and you have not yet.
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
20:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- Who are you and what are your qualifications? The wikipedia article created on Bunasawa is very well sourced. If there is doubt, the onus is on you to do your research. The Bunasawa is way more sourced than many articles on wikipedia. Regarding the table, there are no requirements for contributors to make one. You and people who doubt the authenticity or notability should make one. This is a blatant attempt of censorship.
DN27ND (
talk)
23:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- It isn't an attempt at censorship, it's an attempt at determining whether or not the article belongs on Wikipedia by judging it against Wikipedia policy. Or do you believe that there's a reason why some kind of non policy-related conspiracy might lead to the article being deleted?
Axad12 (
talk)
15:47, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- In essence, Bunasawa is a US coach involved in both domestic and international competitions and he's involved in the movie business. There is a combination of both sources from minor websites, the bio section of the novel he co-authored, and to legitimate local newspapers. If there are disagreements regarding the style or to a source given, you are free to edit the Bunasawa article, it's public.
- To delete it completely is censorship.
DN27ND (
talk)
12:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- If you feel a section is not properly sourced, then add a [citation needed] tag. If you feel that there are COI, then add the COI notification label. Like I said, to delete the article completely without checking all the sources to see if there is truth in what is written, is censorship.
DN27ND (
talk)
12:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- The summary of what I'm saying is, do the fact-checking first, then decide whether or not to delete.
DN27ND (
talk)
12:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Here are the main papers which state that Bunasawa has coached at the Olympic & World level are these ones
- Rezell, John (March 3, 1988). "Top Judo Instructor comes to the defense of self-defense". Orange County Register.
- "Judo". Orange Network. 385: 7. April 2023.
- New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975
- "Instructor on Show". Rogers Daily News. April 1975.
- Fears, Randy (October 1975). "U.S. Judo team". Rogers Daily News.
- I have the scanned newspaper clippings on my computer, and could post them here
DN27ND (
talk)
23:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
DN27ND (
talk)
23:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
DN27ND (
talk)
23:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- There are many more articles I could post. I wouldn't have gotten access to leads to this information and these clippings if I did not have contact with Bunasawa and his team. You can suspect COI, but that is speculation and open for debate.
DN27ND (
talk)
00:00, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- A discussion about this has been started at
WP:COIN#User:DN27ND. It's probably better to further discuss this there than here. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
03:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Also there was a typo in Rogers Daily News by Randy Fears. The World Championships in Vienna were held in 1975 rather than 1976.
DN27ND (
talk)
00:02, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I could get clippings of (in a month or so)
- "New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975.
- and I could post it to show Bunasawa was indeed a collegiate coach as well.
- But what's to stop future editors from accusations without doing their research?
- If 100 future editors all want these clippings, am I to post it 100 times in the future?
- The article is extensively sourced, and the onus is on the accuser to do their research.
DN27ND (
talk)
02:12, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- You were
advised above not to upload scans or photos of newspaper article because or the copyright issues related to doing so. Scanning or taking a photo of a newspaper article doesn't make it your "own work" as explained in
c:COM:Own work and
c:COM:2D copying, and you can't upload such things to Commons as your "own work"; moreover, even if you properly attribute the original work and are claiming the scan/photo is a
c:COM:Derivative work in some way, you still can't upload such things to Commons unless can clearly show the original publications the articles appeared in are no longer under copyright protection or have been release under an acceptable license by their copyright holders. You can summarize these sources in your own words on either the article's talk page or this AfD's talk page if you want, but you shouldn't reproduce them verbatim. I've tagged the files for speedy deletion on Commons and hidden them here until they are reviewed by a Commons administrator. If you'd like to provide evidence that these newspaper articles are your "own work" or otherwise aren't protected by copyright, please do so at
c:COM:ANU#User:DN27ND; please don't, however, unhide the files until their licensing can be sorted out, and please don't upload anymore. If it the files are kept by Commons, I have no problem unhiding them myself. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
02:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Sure delete it. Did you update your table using those sources?
DN27ND (
talk)
02:57, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Those articles clearly state that Bunasawa was the US Judo World and Olympic coach at one point in his career
DN27ND (
talk)
02:59, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- The point is that the sources exist and are not fabricated. The Bunasawa article is extensively sourced. I'm not sure if they are online because these are sources from the 1970s and 1980s.
- There are records from newspapers indicating that he was a Judo coach for the US team and for collegiate teams in the 1970s. They aren't online but I have the clippings.
DN27ND (
talk)
03:07, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
DN27ND, you obviously didn't take my hint that you had said ENOUGH. No one is going to read through all of these comments you have posted and there might well be a backlash to your bludgeoning of this discussion. If you don't stop right here, you might very well get a partial block from editing this page. You are not helping your case, you are hurting it. Editors know where you stand, please room for other editors to participate.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
03:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- Delete on the basis that this discussion
[17] suggests that the subject doesn't meet
WP:MANOTE. Also, the article was originally written by a user who has claimed on Commons to be the subject. User DN27ND is clearly closely associated with the subject, if they are not actually the subject, and at the very least is editing directly on behalf of the subject. His claims to be a journalist are clearly questionable, as journalists do not post the results of their work on Wikipedia. COI users, however, do.
Axad12 (
talk) 14.39, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete I appreciate the analysis done by
Marchjuly. I had started to put together my own list, but he published first. I generally agree with his analysis. I didn't see anything that convinces me that there are multiple cases of significant independent coverage in reliable sources. Passing mentions, being named a judo instructor, martial arts rank, demonstrating techniques, and listings of results have never been considered sufficient to provide the coverage necessary to show WP notability. There is no evidence that he meets
WP:SPORTBASIC which talks about having "success in a major international competition at the highest level." He didn't qualify for the Japanese team even though they were awarded two spots in each division. Being one of two team alternates in his division isn't enough, nor are high school or collegiate championships. I also don't see him meeting notability requirements as an author or actor. I would say he's a talented judoka, but that alone is not grounds for WP notability.
Papaursa (
talk)
16:15, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- Ok... could you tell me how these wiki profiles are allowed to exist?
-
Tatsukuma Ushijima
-
Yosh Uchida
-
Yoshimi Osawa
- and etc. These guys never competed at an international level but have had involvement in the sport in multiple ways, either through promotions, winning national titles, and coaching.
- I've included citations in the article and Marchjuly's chart showing evidence of Bunasawa as the US Olympic and World team coach. The bits about what he Bunasawa has won in high school, and the collegiate level, were included to show his development as a sportsman, and how he acquired those skills, his exposure to World and Olympic level players, as part of his development towards becoming a Judo coach.
- Take a look at Ryoko Tani's biography under "selection controversy"
- "Tani lost the 2007 All-Japan Weight Class Judo Championship, which doubles as the qualifier for Olympics and the World Championships on those years when the events take place, but was selected as Japan's representative anyway by the All Japan Judo Federation (AJJF)."
- Bunasawa was not selected in either of the 2 spots for the 1969 Mexico World Championships, but if you check out Kono's results (who was selected with Minatoya) he was eliminated at that same national championships in 1969 in the first round by Matsuda (and there is citation and evidence of this). The AJJF's selection of Kono rather than Bunasawa, Matsuda, or even Yamazaki (who was the Asian champion) was controversal considering Kono's competition resume and results.
- The judo profiles on wikipedia Japan often lists a player's past competitions and details of their results. Yes you are right, Bunasawa never competed at an international level, but he is an international level coach (this is documented).
DN27ND (
talk)
16:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- You've been warned to stop these walls of text and bolding. If I was you I'd give it a break.
- Also, arguing that other stuff exists which may be as bad as (or worse than) this article isn't a legitimate argument for this article not to be deleted, it's only an argument that those articles may need to be be deleted too.
- Could I ask you a question though? Can you clarify the circumstances which led to you opening an account on Wikipedia and then, as one of your very first edits, approving an article which you presumably were aware had been written by the subject of the article, with whom you had presumably already had contact. Did it not strike you that there may have been some conflict of interest there?
Axad12 (
talk)
17:02, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I wrote the article and sent it to Bunasawa's team. They might have thought I wanted them to post it? But that wasn't my intention of sending them the draft. I was hoping they look through the dates and make sure everything was in chronological order. I do research the sport and history of Judo extensively and was planning to create other Judo biographies of figures that do not currently have a wikipedia but I think are notable in the sport. That is my intention of creating a wikipedia account. I have another biography in the works, which will probably be released at the end of 2024 or early 2025.
- No it did not strike me as a COI. I wrote the article draft and sent it to the Bunasawa team. They provided me leads on info and additional newspaper clippings. If I didnt reach out to their team, I woudnt have gotten all those newspaper clippings.
DN27ND (
talk)
17:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- In which case you were approving an article which you actually wrote yourself, but which someone else had posted on Wikipedia after you sent it to them?
Axad12 (
talk)
17:32, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Yes I wrote that. I send the draft to the Bunasawa team with the intention that they verify the dates and chronology of the article. I am not Nori Bunasawa. I have news that he is currently in the USA and I'm in another country.
DN27ND (
talk)
11:52, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- There is context to this. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, If you were a top national player in Japan, that was equivalent to being a World level player. The reason being is because the sheer number of competitors in Japan, and the developmental system of Judo in Japan (the birthplace of Judo). Being a top player in Japan at that time meant being top 3 in the world if you were selected by AJJF to compete and represent internationally.
- This is a reason that he was appointed as the US Judo coach in 1972 Olympic in Munich and 1975 World Championships in Vienna. Which is to elevate the level of those teams.
- I don't think its a stretch to say that the USA is not a strong judo nation. They have a few World champions and Olympic medalists, but not that much when compared to Japan, Korea, Brazil, France, etc.
- The inclusion of his competitions at a high school and collegiate level was giving background to his future pursuits.
- If you really knew the world of judo then you would know that there are different levels. Japanese high school students champions can often beat USA Judo Olympians. And most standout former Japanese Judo collegiate players would certainly beat many ordinary USA judo olympians. This is the purpose of the mentioning of his All Japan Silver medal accomplishment. When you talk about All Japan Medalists in those days, they would usually dominate the opposition if they were sent to compete by the All Japan Judo Federation (AJJF).
DN27ND (
talk)
17:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Check out these other martial arts profiles
-
Tim Cartmell
- I mean, do you know what the senior 2 division is? The IBJJF, like the IJF, creates many divisions where older athletes could compete. These competitions do not result in points toward qualification for World or the Olympics games. Its not the most competitive divisions by any stretch of the imagination. Other than that, it looks like Tim Cartmell was prolific writer.
- Check out
-
Dan Inosanto
- Did he fight internationally? Was he an international competitor?
DN27ND (
talk)
16:56, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Also, this is beyond the scope of the article and special interest, but if you do your research, the All Japan National Judo Championships is a much much more difficult competition to qualify for and to win than the US Open of Judo, of which you don't have to qualify for. You can just sign up and compete at the US Open of Judo (no joke).
DN27ND (
talk)
17:26, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Experienced judo competitors are aware of this.
DN27ND (
talk)
17:27, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- For many international competitions at less developed judo nations (ie US Judo Open, Australian Judo Open, etc). There is no qualification processes. You can simply sign up and compete.
- At many IBJJF events, you can simply sign up and compete (especially at senior 2, 3, etc. aka the old men divisions) there are no qualification process where you have to win a prior tournament to enter the present tournament.
DN27ND (
talk)
17:32, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Papaursa, you were editing
Tim Cartmell's wikipedia article. Do you really think the IBJJF Pan Championship as a brown belt (Senior 2) and black belt (Senior 2) divisions are legitimate competitive divisions? The IBJJF classifies those divisions are for 56 to 60 years old players. That is the grandfather division. The brackets of these divisions have small numbers of participants. Those divisions were created for older hobbyist jiujitsu players who are well past their physical prime, to compete in so that the IBJJF could collect tournament fees. Most of these older jiujitsu players use the senior 2 division (which means past one's physical prime division) as an opportunity to travel to south America and enjoy the local festivities. Its also very fun for those athletes in the senior 2 division to have their grandkids come out to cheer them on as well.
- If you really think the past one's physical prime division (aka senior 2 division) is a competitive international division which makes a person wikipedia notable, then I have some snake oil to sell you.
DN27ND (
talk)
22:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- @
104.232.119.107
- Let me translate "snake oil" for you: 뱀기름
- It's definitely puffery
DN27ND (
talk)
22:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- DN27ND, I suggest you look at
WP:OTHERSTUFF. The notability of other articles has no bearing on the WP notability of this article. If you feel those articles about about non-notable subjects, you are welcome to put them up for deletion. If the U.S. head coach at the 1972 Olympics isn't notable, why would the technical coach be notable? I would also caution you about
WP:BLUDGEON. I mention these other guidelines because the fact you haven't contributed to any other articles means you might not be aware of other relevant policies and guidelines. You should be aware that open events mean they are open to all (hence the name). They are often different from national championships, especially in sports that can only accommodate a limited number of competitors. For example, this year's U.S. Open in chess has over 300 competitors, but the U.S. championship invites the highest ranked 10 Americans (according to world rankings).
Papaursa (
talk)
17:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- I'm not aware of the sign up procedures of the US open of chess or the US national chess championships. In judo, the open tournaments hosted in nations of lessor developed judo programs have lower turnouts, qualification processes, and to be frank, a lower talent pool. Just because an athlete competes internationally, doesn't mean they are notable in judo (which was one of the criteria mentioned above for a requirement of notability.
- Why wouldn't an Olympic coach be notable? Are collegiate coaches notable?
- Check out
-
Dan Hurley
- He's a notable collegiate basketball coach, and his article lists that he coached at a high school level.
- Is coaching at a high school level notable? Or is this info included to illustrate the progression of his career?
- I'm not making an argument that the subject in the other articles aren't notable. What I'm saying is that they are notable. Movie stars, coaches, pioneers of the sport, they are notable in their own way. That's your opinion that they aren't notable.
- I may think that a certain chess player is not notable. But I know nothing of chess, and I would have an uneducated opinion. In that case, I wouldn't vote because I wouldn't be able to tell whether that chess player is notable or not, I would defer to the chess fans, followers and experts.
- In Bunasawa's case, not only is he a notable judo coach by coaching 3 levels (Olympic, World, Collegiate), but also an author that is having his book adapted by a major production company. "Dead or Alive" is connected both Bunasawa and Jose Padilla.
DN27ND (
talk)
18:57, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Why would I trust a judo expert to vote whether a chess expert is notable or not and vice versa? Perhaps if it were a vote amongst members of the USA judo community, I would view that as more legitimate than a vote of an uninformed mob
DN27ND (
talk)
18:59, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- So you view the AfD process as akin to an uninformed mob?
- The problem is your lack of understanding of Wikipedia policies like conflict of interest, reliable sources, notability, etc. etc. Those policies exist so that things can be dealt with objectively, rather than just using your opinions on those topics, which seem to be very much at odds with policy if your comments here are anything to go by.
Axad12 (
talk)
19:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I'm informed about COI, reliable sources, and notability. I can see why readers suspect COI, but it is what it is. If I did not have contact with the subject and his team, I wouldn't have gain access to information and the newspaper clippings and there would be no article. So put a COI disclaimer on the article.
- I'm aware what reliable sources are. The article contains a mix of both reliable sources and sources that are potentially less reliable. For evidence of the subject's role as a US judo coach at the Olympic, World, and collegiate level, those are very reliable sources. For evidence of his involvement in the movie industry and upcoming project, those are semi-reliable and inferences were made (ie José Padilha is involved in the Mitsuyo Maeda movie "Dead or Alive", Bunasawa is involved in the Mitsuyo Maeda movie "Dead or Alive", Bunasawa co-authored a book on Mitsuyo Maeda therefore, his book is being adapted to a movie by a major production company (Stampede productions), which was also stated on Judoinside.com). I could ask Bunasawa and his team to take a picture of his contract and post it on wikimedia commons and there is a good chance they could do that. The contract would be considered a primary source and I regard that has having greater integrity than secondary sources. But I'm not sure if this is allowed.
- Whether or not Judoinside.com is a reliable source is debatable. It's a website that is supposed to have accurate judo competition records and biographies. Can it make mistakes? Absolutely. "Reliable sources" like the New York Times also make mistakes on reports. I would say judoinside.com could perhaps be classified as semi-reliable. The point is, through my contact with Bunasawa, I was informed that he signed a contract with the production company. When I tried to search this online, Judoinside.com was the only source of information which verified this.
- In terms of notability, Judo has grown into a large global Olympic sport since the 1960s. Judo became an Olympic sport in 1964, and around the time the subject of this article entered college as a freshman. This individual was operating within the judo world since the beginning of the institution of weight classes to development of international competitions. He is part of the history of the sport.
- The other information such as him founding a martial art, his involvement with his newspaper company comes from his book and his newspapers. In terms of notability of the book and the newspaper, you would have to assess it by sales, circulation and whether it is used as a citation on other papers. I heard the book did very good sales numbers on the google bookstore and on Amazon.
- In terms of his fighting records, those are from newspaper clippings from Japanese sports newspapers such as Nippon Judo Shimbun, and The Judo Shimbun. The inclusion of his national japan fighting record is to give some context to his coaching involvement in the USA. That competition is well respected in the Judo world in the around the time of the 1960s. So to judge notability, knowledge of historical context of the sport is required.
- So yes, if you don't have knowledge of the historical context of the sport, it is akin to an uninformed mob voting on a subject of which they have no information about.
- When writing this article, I was thinking about how the English reader could understand the article without me actually writing and explaining the historical situation of the sport in a biographical article. I still haven't figured it out, but I have included some sources such as Leitner, Katrin (2011). "The Japanese Corporate Sports System: a Unique style of Sports Promotion". Vienna Journal of East Asian Studies. 2: 27–54. doi:10.2478/vjeas-2011-0008 – via Researchgate which includes the history for interested readers.
DN27ND (
talk)
17:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- On the sport of judo and notability in judo. Let's get real and we'll use judo in the USA as an example. There are a lot of international competitors that the US puts out that I would call no-hopers. The majority of US judo athletes get eliminated in the first round at major international tournaments. If they get a lucky bracket, maybe they will get eliminated in the 2nd round. If you are in the sport long enough, at some of the less competitive tournaments (like the Pan-Americans, most of US athletes might win Bronze or Silver). Some of these athletes market themselves, try to get endorsements to cover their travel and competition expenses, but really use it as a vacation. To travel the world on their own dime or their sponsor's dime, but in actually, they are the no-hopers (they wont medal in the Olympics or World championships). There are exceptions to the rule, (Jimmy Pedro, Mike Swain, Kayla Harrison, Kevin Asano, etc) but the exceptions are rare.
- A player who medals in the All Japan Championships in the 1960s and the 1970s, if they get selected by the AJJF to compete in the Olympics or the Worlds, it is almost a certainty that they will get a onto the podium to get a medal (there are exceptions to the rule, but it is a huge chance they will medal). Since this is the reality of Judo, then you will understand why Bunasawa is a notable US coach and why I included the details of his 1969 All Japan National Judo tournament in his bio. And trust me, Bunasawa is a lot more notable than the US judo athletes that have been on the international circuit post-2016 Rio Olympics. There's a lot of no-hopers on the US judo team post-2016 Rio Olympics that are a lot less notable than Bunasawa.
- If you are informed about the sport of judo in the USA, you would know this.
DN27ND (
talk)
17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Read
WP:BLUDGEON. And then post the links to the articles you think work towards
WP:GNG. Anything else is just wasting your own time and other people's.
Axad12 (
talk)
18:46, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Also since this is the format, for non-judo people to vote on notability. Perhaps research on judo as a sport in the late 1960s. The only international events at that time for the sport of were either the World Championships or the Olympic games. Meaning there were literally no other international events in 1969. If the AJJF did not select you, other international competitions were not available. Today in modern times, there is a saturation of international events in judo. But that doesnt mean an international judo player is notable.
- In the 1960s, if you at the top of Japan Judo. You were very notable in the judo world.
DN27ND (
talk)
19:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Papaursa, I suggest you look up the senior 2 division of the IBJJF before editing Tim Cartmell's wikipedia article. It's a division for 56-60 year olds. Grandkids love coming out to cheer for their grandpas in those divisions. Are you saying competitors in this BJJ division (which is not an Olympic sport) are more notable than an Olympic level coach? Please clarify
DN27ND (
talk)
22:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- Comment/Question I've stopped trying to read through the avalanche of text by DN27ND. Am I wrong or are both of the keep votes from him?
Papaursa (
talk)
00:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- No, one is from Kingsif.
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
03:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Am I wrong to keep votes from you? You who believes IBJJF senior 2 divisions count as notable because they are international competitions
DN27ND (
talk)
22:34, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I've
removed two entries from the source assessment table that were added by
added by DN27ND, on the basis that the source assessment table above is clearly marked "prepared by User:Marchjuly" and so it is misleading to add source analysis that is not actually prepared by Marchjuly. DN27ND is free to re-add this analysis separately if it is clearly indicated with who it's coming from.
DanCherek (
talk)
01:41, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- There were users who wanted me to add to the table. I shouldnt have to do Marchjuly's homework, but ok I'll entertain him. I posted 2 of the relevant photographs of newspaper clippings rather than add those sources to his table list before its deletion, he choose to hide them before deletion. This is censorship of sourced information and of sources.
DN27ND (
talk)
03:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I think it would be useful to have some input from
Marchjuly and
Papaursa on whether the two sources in the table below genuinely count towards satisfying
WP:GNG. My understanding of previous comments in this thread is that references to someone having been a coach do not confer notability.
- Personally I'm very reluctant to take the word of an editor who has admitted to having approved a draft that they had themselves authored, in clear contravention of policy, and who seems to be very unfamiliar with broader policy here. Not to mention, of course, the fact that they have a
conflict of interest but have yet to declare it on their user page.
Axad12 (
talk)
04:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I agree with this. I think it's possible the subject of the article is notable, but the draft creation and approval process is so suspect that I don't think we should keep the article up. It sets a bad precedent. If someone really wants this article back, then they can recreate in future, without a COI and without this extreme belligerence. The conduct from DN27ND in this thread has been unacceptable. Throwing around accusations of censorship, walls of text, poor understanding of Wikipedia policy and refusal to learn the policy, refusal to adjust the POV language. It just keeps going.
- I already voted above, but we should delete the article.
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
05:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- My conduct is unacceptable to you? What are your qualifications?
- Perhaps you should clean up the article? I contributed to the article using language that is in common usage in North America. The selection of the wording is appropriate to give the information in a relatively terse manner.
DN27ND (
talk)
05:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Just wondering, is North American english your first language? You dont have to answer if you don't want to
DN27ND (
talk)
05:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- The issue raised directly above related to whether some of the language used was in accordance with
WP:NPOV (as per discussions further up this thread), not whether it was good English. You really are doing yourself no favours by continually arguing, especially when so much of what you are saying is contrary to policy.
- You've been asked now twice to knock off the
WP:BLUDGEON. This discussion is about reaching a consensus on the right course of action, not for you to make the overwhelming majority of contributions saying things that no one else agrees with.
Axad12 (
talk)
06:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
As I posted above and in my
edit summary, I "
hid" the images per
WP:TPG#Removing prohibited material because they were copyvios uploaded to Wikipedia Commons and were subsequently deleted as such by a Commons' administrator. DN27ND was advised not to do this, but went ahead and did so anyways. As I also posted above, I would've happily unhid the files if Commons would've kept them. DN27ND was also advised that they could post at
c:COM:ANU#User:DN27ND and explain why the two uploads weren't copyvios. DN27ND can still request the undeletion of the files at
c:COM:REFUND if they feel the files were wrongly deleted. If DN27ND thinks I censored them or otherwise did something else inappropriate by doing this, they're free to seek administrator assistance at
WP:ANI; if hiding the files was wrong, an administrator will let me know and even possibly sanction me for it. A Wikipedia administrator can't restore the files, though, since they were uploaded to Commons (please don't misunderstand this as meaning it's OK to reupload them to locally to Wikipedia though) and need to restroed by a Commons administrator.As for the source assessment table, DN27ND or anyone else re-assess the same sources I did or assess other yet-to-be assessed sources (with or without using a table), but it would be better to do so as their own separate post (maybe a brief assessment or table here on this AFD page and more further analysis on the AfD's talk page if needed my be a good idea). Others, however, really shouldn't be modifying my post to add their assessments to my table per
WP:TPO because doing so makes it seems as if it's my assessment and not theirs; this is why
DanCherek, who's a Wikipedia administrator, reverted DN27ND's edit to the table I created. If DN27ND feels DanCherek censored them by doing this, they're free to discuss things with Dan at
User talk:DanCherek or seek other administrator assistance at WP:ANI. It's not a question of doing someone else's homework for them, but rather a question of misrepresenting what someone else has posted by modifying it in some way (i.e. putting your words into their mouth) without a really good Wikipedia policy based reason for doing so. If DN27ND and others mistakenly thought the table I created was for them to build on, then my apologies for not making it clear that it wasn't. Now, if anyone disagrees with my source analysis, they're of course free to post why; once again, though, they should do so in their own post and not insert their comments into the middle of one of mine. FWIW, I've added a
signature to the post DN27ND made to create their source assessment table since it was missing one. I did this per
WP:TPG#Attributing unsigned comments and didn't modify the post in any other way. If DN27ND wants to add some kind of introductory statement to the post, they can. They should also be able to expand the table with additional assessments if they want, but might want to follow
WP:REDACT if they do, particularly if others have already commented on the assessments given in the table and posted below the table. Finally, I've posted enough in this discussion already; others are more than capable of reading all that's been posted above (or what's yet to come) and making their own assessments regarding Bunasawa's Wikipedia notablity. DN27ND doesn't really need to convince me of this, but the
WP:ONUS is on them to establish a
WP:CONSENUS among others that Bunasawa is indeed Wikipedia notable. That's what the Wikipedia administrator who ultimately reviews the discussion
will be looking for and assessing. I've no problem leaving things to that administrator and
WP:CONSENUS. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
06:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I meant to add this to my last post but forgot. A possible
alternative to deletion might be to
WP:DRAFTIFY so that it can continue to be worked on. I do think, however, that there should be a condition attached to this if that's what the consensus ends up being: the draft should be submitted for
WP:AFC review and not moved back to the mainspace by either the article's creator, any other (new) account with an
WP:APPARENTCOI, but might be able to skip AfC if assessed and moved by an account which is
WP:AUTOPATROLLED or an established record of problem-free article creation. That's not a guarantee that the article won't or can't end up at AfD again, but it might address any COI concerns. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
07:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- For why I advocate for deletion over draftify: I'm a bit uncomfortable with the likely COI's impact on the article's content. I think deleting would be cleaner.
- If we do draftify, I'd prefer if the reviewer be informed about the conditions under which the article was created, and that the POV language gets toned down before approval.
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
08:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- With all due respect, you really don't know what you are talking about Sir. If you want to change the wording of "he was chosen as a part of a talented group (which included future Olympic champions in Toyokazu Nomura, Isamu Sonoda, and the national judo 'dream team' that eventually swept the competition at the 1969 World Judo Championships)" then by all means do it.
- You can change "talented group" to "a group which included multiple World Champions, Olympic champions, and future world and olympic champions"
- The point I was trying to make was in choosing the wording of "talented group" and "dream team", is that 1969 World team wasn't a normal team. If you have 2 world or Olympic champions on a team in a single year, that's already a rare event. The total gold medal count for both Worlds and Olympics of all individuals on that 1969 Japan team (and this is just gold) is around 13 gold medals!. I'll repeat that, If you add up all the Olympic and World golds of individuals on that 1969 Japan team, its around 13 gold medals. I could change the word "talented group" to a group that eventually had a total of 13 world and Olympic gold medals if you want me to.
DN27ND (
talk)
18:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Why does this matter in a bio of a US coach? If you were part of the US Judo sporting committee, who would you rather choose as your judo coach?
Adonis Diaz,
Angelica Delgado, or someone that has been on a selected to be part of a team of a collective 13 World & Olympic judo gold medals?
- Its not puffery, the wording was chosen to illustrate that point.
DN27ND (
talk)
18:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I could see why you would interpret it as flowery or puffery. But this is not the case if you understand the context.
DN27ND (
talk)
18:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- That's like comparing the bench player of the USA men's basketball team to the National basketball team in Fiji. Even 2nd or 3rd string players of the USA national basketball team could wipe out the 1st-string starters of the Fiji national basketball team
- In this comparison, Japanese judo players who reach the All Japan National level are the equivalent (and even surpasses) 1st string starters in many many other countries where the judo program is less developed
DN27ND (
talk)
22:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- For context, the developed and competitive judo nations currently include:
- Japan, Korea, Brazil, Georgia, Mongolia, Russia, more eastern European nations, etc.
- The US isn't one of the more competitive judo nations.
DN27ND (
talk)
22:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- And for more context, in modern days, even 3rd string Japanese national judo players, or Korean players, or Brazilian players could take out the players that represent the US in the Olympics.
- I'm not bias, check the competition results.
DN27ND (
talk)
22:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- If I take out "dream team" and "talented group" and replace it with "the group that eventually won a total of more than 13 golds in the worlds and Olympics", would you stop complaining about language?
DN27ND (
talk)
18:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- And also I'll be real with you. I'm American. I'm not partial to the Japanese judo team. I'm a fan of the sport of Judo. If the Russian team won all the golds in a sport I'm a fan of, I would use the same language, because this is sports history. If the Chinese or Iranian team were breaking records in sports history, I would still use the same language to describe a rare event. My contribution is not about nationalism. NBA player Bill Russell won an unprecedented 11 NBA championships. I don't think this will ever be replicated by another NBA all star. This is a record in sports history and I use words appropriate to the description.
- You are contributing to a lot of wikipedia pages that are related to Korean culture and Korean history. There are some historical articles that you have edited that have been related to the Japanese-Korean war conflict. I think you are biased against my wording in regards to the Japanese team. If the Korean team had 13 total gold medals in a single team for a particular year, I would use the same language. Its not puffery or flowery, it's words that describe the magnitude of that accomplishment in sports history.
DN27ND (
talk)
19:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I'm very glad to have this user, who is part of the peanut gallery, to weigh in on this complex issue. Look up the term "peanut gallery", its definitely puffery. Let me translate that for you: 땅콩 갤러리
DN27ND (
talk)
21:51, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Are you really trying to bring my race into this? Are you sure this is the path you want to go down in a publicly visible forum?
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
01:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Or I could post the sources, you can assess them and clean up the article. If its moved to the draftspace, people are going to lag on investigating the sources. Like I offered, I can post some of the sources, you look over them and clean up the article to your liking.
DN27ND (
talk)
18:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Your table consists of mostly sources that are available online and that's fine. It's what is readily available that's within a few clicks a mouse. The article created on Bunasawa includes many sources from the 1960s to 1980s. These sources are more difficult to obtain (it would take time to track them down, but they do exist). Perhaps track these sources down first so that the administrators can make an informed decision of notability and whether to keep the article or delete it? Right now they don't have access to all of the info. I'm volunteering to post the newspaper clippings, but due to copywrite issues, I cannot post them. I think look for and present all the info, so administrators then make an informed decision.
DN27ND (
talk)
07:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I've been trying to find sources at
WP:RX#Nori Bunasawa sources, but haven't had many responses yet. Ultimately, though, the onus falls on you as explained in
WP:SOURCESMUSTEXIST and
WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES to provide information about such sources. They can be
WP:OFFLINE, but again the onus falls upon you to convince others that they are what they say they are. You don't need to convince me if you or someone else can establish a consensus that they are. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
07:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I'm not sending individual emails of the sources. This would require great time commitment. I could post the sources on some agreed upon website, then everyone can have a link to go and view them.
DN27ND (
talk)
08:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- There are a lot of sources on various wikipedia articles. And many of them are not online by from various books or textbooks. Are the contributors required to post all of the sources they use to some website or to email them to wikipedia admin?
- I could post these sources as a courtesy, but If your accusing the article of fabricating sources, then provide evidence.
DN27ND (
talk)
08:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Wikipedia policy states that the onus is on you to prove that the sources exist, not on others to prove that they don't.
- When people give you links to clarify Wikipedia policies, as Marchjuly did above, it is in the hope that you will acquaint yourself with the policies concerned and stop pursuing lines of argument that carry no water.
- Given that pretty much everything you've said in this discussion so far has been contrary to policy, it will be interesting to see the four sources you've indicated below to see if your estimation of "Reliable Source?", "Significant Coverage?" and "Counts towards GWG?" matches up with Wikipedia policy.
Axad12 (
talk)
08:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- No problem. I have access to the newspaper clippings. What public website do you suggest I post them to? I want everyone to be able to view them to assess for themselves, not just a select few via email.
DN27ND (
talk)
09:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- @DN27ND: This is really my last post here (at least for the time being). I would be careful about adding any
convenience links to any Wikipedia page if you reasonably suspect the website you're linking to be hosting potentially copyrighted content without the consent of the original copyright holder of said content. Such a thing would be prohibited per
WP:COPYLINK. I know you disregarded my advice above about uploading scans/photos of said articles, but I really think it would be wise for you to seek input at
WP:ELN,
WP:RSN or even
WP:AN first before doing anything like that. It would, in principle, be much better to find links to official websites where such articles might be found, but perhaps an archival site like newspapers.com is also OK. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
09:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Like I stated, these sources are from newspapers in the 1960s to 1980s. I don't know if they are online. I have some of the clippings. The others sources on the wikipedia article, I viewed them and referenced them before including it on the article and would take time for me to be able to request them from individuals. If you have suggestions on how I can post the ones I have saved, for the public to view, then I'm open to suggestions.
DN27ND (
talk)
09:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Marchjuly is an extremely biased person. When I uploaded these sources (as a screenshot)
- Fears, Randy (October 1975). "U.S. Judo team". Rogers Daily News.
- Rezell, John (March 3, 1988). "Top Judo Instructor comes to the defense of self-defense". Orange County Register
- for him to update his table, instead of using them to update his table, then hiding them, he choose to hide them without updating his table. The sources were right there for you to evaluate, instead you hid them from public view without updating your table. Copyright issues aside, if they were going to be deleted anyways, why not assess them before the deletion?
- Instead of quickly adding those sources to his table, he quickly made claims of COI on other threads. Perhaps Marchjuly has an agenda
DN27ND (
talk)
21:35, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
|
- After repeated warnings about bludgeoning, the user made 24 replies, interrupted by one reply from Axad12, in a row. A number of the replies alledge conspiracies and are accusations about having hidden agendas. A number of the replies are about my race:
[18]
[19]
[20]. At what point does this stop being acceptable?
104.232.119.107 (
talk)
01:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- An absolutely incredibly amount of bludgeoning which caused significant disruption to this deletion discussion. I have taken liberty to collapse a large amount of it.
Daniel (
talk)
06:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- This user seems very defensive especially when DN27ND offered to help translate english phrases which might be difficult to understand into his native language (Korean). He also has a history of contributing to ethnic specific content on wikipedia, such as
-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kant%C5%8D_Massacre
-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_First_Movement
-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1st_Independence_Movement_Road_in_Daegu
- Its very possible that he holds anti-Japan and anti-Japanese sentiments and that is affecting his ability to contribute in this diacussion about this US Olympic coach who appears to have Japanese ancestry.
120.18.136.197 (
talk)
15:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- He also has recently had made critical comments on
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_at_the_Summer_Olympics
- Which states that the US is the most successful nation in Olympic basketball and where it's a sport where the Americans dominate.
- It seems he has a record of sports history denialism, and becomes sensitive in topics when the team of his ethnic group doesn't win.
120.18.136.197 (
talk)
15:48, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
--— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
DN27ND (
talk •
contribs)
03:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I am hesitant to relist this, but I do not think consensus has been reached yet (though we could be close). Could new comments please focus on the two source assessments provided? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Malinaccier (
talk)
14:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- The former of the two source assessment tables is based on online sources which can be checked. It is by an experienced contributor and indicates that GNG hasn't been met. That was also the opinion of three other contributors to this discussion.
- The latter of the two source assessment tables is based on sources that have only been seen by a contributor with an admitted COI. From their contributions above their understanding of Wikipedia policies is clearly faulty and I don't think their assessment of GNG can be given any credence.
- Now that the latter user has been blocked from contributing to this discussion I don't see how the rest of us are likely to be able to see the sources that they refer to. While that is unfortunate, the chances of those sources having satisfied GNG must surely be assessed as exceptionally low.
- Apart from the COI contributor, the only other contributor to vote KEEP did so on the basis that "from a glancing view I would also say [the article] is not short on sources", but no one disputes the quantity of the sources, the issue is the quality.
Axad12 (
talk)
15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
Edgar Chibaka (
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should be deleted due to the lack of significant independent coverage that meets the General Notability Guideline (GNG), relying instead on primary sources, company related news and not significant mentions.
LusikSnusik (
talk)
10:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete interviews are a poor way to establish notability and if he owns the Nyasa Times then it isn't independent enough to establish notability.
Traumnovelle (
talk)
21:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- @
Traumnovelle Alternatively, it makes sense to redirect it to their company on Wikipedia that the subject found, thus
Nyasa Times. Again, not all sources are interviews. Furthermore, this AfD was made by someone at random who was even reported at ANI
here and there is even a discussion on
their talk page about their nominations.
Tumbuka Arch (
talk)
07:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I don't oppose a redirect. I looked at the references now. I presumed the sources you mentioned were the strongest sources. The strongest source appears to be the Yorkshire Evening Post but it isn't enough for notability in my opinion.
Traumnovelle (
talk)
07:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
The Herald (Benison) (
talk)
07:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
Drunvalo Melchizedek (
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It's regrettable that this page has remained on Wikipedia for so long. It relies exclusively on primary sources and blog posts. Drunvalo Melchizedek lacks significant coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources. There are no serious reviews of his self published books. Consensus was deletion after a previous nomination in 2012. Not much has changed. He might be well known in New Age pseudoscience circles but there is nothing of substance for a Wikipedia page.
Ynsfial (
talk)
19:07, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Comment The AFD is inaccurate as this is not the same page from 2012. It was recreated from scratch with available info in 2019. Also, the AFD does not actually give any specific grounds for deletion except what sounds like personal disdain, which WP needs to be above. In fact, the deletion submission itself admits topical notability. Whether said topical area is bad or good is not relevant to encyclopedic inclusion. -
Keith D. Tyler
¶
12:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- You need to give my AFD a second read. My specific grounds for deletion are clearly stated. Drunvalo Melchizedek lacks significant coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources, which I determined after checking for coverage of him online. Second of all, as an author and researcher, his work lacks serious reviews, though I recognize this is just one aspect of author notability criteria that he fails to meet. He doesn't seem to meet the others either. I'm not sure what you mean about topical notability. A TikToker every other teen is familiar with is well known to many people. But if there isn't much serious coverage of them they aren't encyclopedically notable. If you believe he meets the notability criteria, please provide a few credible sources this.
Ynsfial (
talk)
13:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- My first inclination would be
WP:AUTHOR, in that, at least in his field (however dubious), he is considered a significant figure. This is rather bolstered, I would say, by the number of the independent secondary sources already cited. Additionally, that his work has been the inspiration for notable artists as diverse as
Tool and
Willow Smith lends some amount of significant influence. But again, even your nomination concedes that "he might be well known in New Age... circles" which would seem to render the question moot; even you're not entirely certain of his non-notability, which I still think shoots significant holes through any
WP:NN argument.
- As for
WP:RS, I would point to
Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Parity_of_sources:
- Parity of sources may mean that certain fringe theories are only reliably and verifiably reported on, or criticized, in alternative venues from those that are typically considered reliable sources for scientific topics on Wikipedia. For example, the lack of peer-reviewed criticism of creation science should not be used as a justification for marginalizing or removing scientific criticism of creation science, since creation science itself is not published in peer-reviewed journals. Likewise, the views of adherents should not be excluded from an article on creation science solely on the basis that their work lacks peer review. Other considerations for notability should be considered as well.
-
Keith D. Tyler
¶
05:30, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Thank you for pointing out the guideline concerning parity of sources. Please provide 3 of the independent secondary sources cited that you think best establish notability and we can discuss it from there.
Ynsfial (
talk)
15:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per
WP:RS - I don’t see a single reliable source, unless you consider Jezebel to be reliable. This is in no was close to passing notability.
Bearian (
talk)
03:29, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Not eligible for a Soft Deletion. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Liz
Read!
Talk!
22:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
Fiona Krautil (
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I don't see how she meets
WP:BIO or
WP:AUTHOR. Most of the sources merely confirm facts about her and I found nothing in a google news search.
LibStar (
talk)
02:37, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
Keep I have already added more references to this article to show notability. She has been written about in the Australian press with some brief bios in those articles. She advised the Federal Government and argued for innovative labour policies for women long before they were legislated by government such as paid maternity leave, flexible working hours, better access to child care. I will add more to her article later.
LPascal (
talk)
06:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Additional comment- Also she has brief bios in Who's Who in Australia 2002 and 2009 and is listed in the Encyclopedia of Australian Science and Innovation
https://www.eoas.info/biogs/P004276b.htm
LPascal (
talk)
06:27, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Additional comment: A short bio and interview is here and shows some of her impact on government policy.
https://aclw.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Leadership-Interviews-alphabetical.pdf by Australian Centre for Leadership for Women
https://aclw.org/research-and-publications/leadership-interviews/leadership-interviews/
LPascal (
talk)
09:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- I'm not sure if an interview would be a primary source. ACLW invited her for an interview.
LibStar (
talk)
03:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I'd like to hear from more editors (one of the participants here has just been indefinitely blocked). Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Liz
Read!
Talk!
02:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
-
Imre Vallyon (
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I'm nominating this page for deletion again because the initial discussion lacked sufficient engagement and the sources provided were inadequate in both quality and quantity. There's a notable absence of substantial coverage of Imre Vallyon, his work, or his organisation in multiple reliable secondary sources. Meeting notability criteria typically requires presenting at least three such sources. The article from Stuff, while primarily focused on his legal issues, appears to be the only source that meets these criteria. Without it, the page is mostly information sourced by primary sources and a list of his self published books and ebooks.
In terms of Vallyon's notability as a writer, the two book reviews presented by
Oaktree b in the previous discussion are clearly poor sources, as they seem to be paid content from freelance writers on unreliable websites. Additionally, Vallyon does not meet the criteria for notability as a criminal according to Wikipedia guidelines on crime perpetrators, despite the only significant coverage of him focusing on his legal issues. His organisation, FHL, does not seem to meet the notability standards either.
Ynsfial (
talk)
16:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Hey man im josh (
talk)
18:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- ’’’Keep’’’ He’s a convicted pedophile. Where’s the good in deleting this? Meets
WP:GNG. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2A01:E0A:E9F:8340:51A7:F4CD:CE5C:4B8B (
talk)
18:30, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Can you demonstrate how it has enough to meet WP:GNG?
Ynsfial (
talk)
15:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Keep as thin as it is, the media coverage in New Zealand and the Netherlands establishes
WP:GNG in my opinion. David Palmer//
cloventt (
talk)
01:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Strong keep. Looks like an attempt to delete the history to me. It happened before that talented people did crimes (Roman Polansky etc.) and encyclopedia must show the good and the bad. There had been "no consensus" discussion before and my position here is that the person is a notable author and notable criminal and convicted felon at the same time. Also, I see it as a strange attempt from another editor and I have COI concerns here. If the page stays, I suggest to monitor it carefully for any future attempts to delete the historical record.--
Saul McGill (
talk)
01:22, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete Lacks
WP:SIGCOV in multiple RS to meet
WP:GNG. I don't think the Dutch NOS article mentioned above provides significant enough coverage. I'd say awards won aren't enough for notability, but this might be worth looking into further. @
Saul McGill:, I don't see how he fulfills
WP:PERPETRATOR or
WP:AUTHOR. He fails all the criteria for both.
Mooonswimmer
01:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Liz
Read!
Talk!
18:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Delete: The key points to ponder include:
1. Is Vallyon notable as an author? Only a few reliable sources have covered Vallyon’s works. Thus, he is not notable under
WP:GNG.
2. Is Vallyon a notable criminal? Vallyon also fails
WP:PERPETRATOR. A criminal is only notable if the media in many countries have covered their crimes or if the crimes were historic or major. There has been coverage of his legal issues, but it may not be enough to meet these standards.
3. Is there reliable coverage? To strengthen the argument, we rely on you, the editors and contributors, to provide sources that can offer an in-depth study of Vallyon’s life and work or his crimes.
4. Is there community consensus? The ongoing debate and non-consensus closure of previous discussions highlight the urgency of a closer review of the sources and arguments, mainly regarding their differing viewpoints. Everyone's input is crucial in this process.
In short, the coverage does not explore his works or crimes. If the consensus favors retention due to his criminal history, the article must meet
WP:BLP. It is our collective duty to ensure that it remains neutral and relies on proper sources.--
AstridMitch (
talk)
19:36, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
- Note to closer: see concerns
at ANI that the AFD !votes by
AstridMitch, now blocked, are LLM-aided.
Abecedare (
talk)
20:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
AstridMitch, I struggled to follow your logic, to be honest. For example, per
WP:PERPETRATOR, his crimes were covered in New Zealand and Germany, which constitutes international media coverage. Additionally, he has followers and organized groups in many countries, indicating an impact that clearly extends beyond one region or even country. Moreover, the "no consensus" closure doesn't highlight any urgency as you incorrectly claimed. This is simply not true and there is no urgency here unless it may be urgent for you. Regarding the reliable coverage argument, I didn't understand your point. Overall, your comment resembles an emotional appeal to editors' collective consciousness (also beyond my logic in terms of Wikipedia's rules) rather than providing clear arguments.--
50.46.167.81 (
talk)
07:54, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
In addition to being a prolific and frequently published writer who meets WP:GNG, he is notable as a spiritual influencer or "cult leader" (arguably) with large groups of followers in several countries. He wouldn't have been covered by major media outlets in New Zealand and Europe if he were just a child molester. The point is that he was active as a philosopher and "school leader" who organized large international groups of followers, which then caught media attention. They described him as an influencer, a child molester, and a convicted felon. Therefore, I suggest adding "spiritual influencer" or "Spiritual teacher" to the definition, as supported by sources on his page.
50.46.167.81 (
talk)
04:43, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
reply
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