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The result was no consensus. no comment on plagarism/copyvio MBisanz ^talk 03:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Gauge gravitation theory

Gauge gravitation theory (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Cut-and-paste of arXiv: gr-qc/0512115. Probably a copyvio of the journal reference obtained from ArXiV: Int.J.Geom.Methods Mod.Phys., v.3, N1 (2006) pp.v-xx. It is quite possible that the author User:Gsard is the author of this published article, but unless the author retains all copyrights, the rights would need to be licensed under the GFDL by the publisher in order to appear here. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 00:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

*Comment. Closer examination reveals that only the first 21 or so words are directly lifted from the source indicated above. Still not sure what to do, especially given that there is a reasonable likelihood that the original author is also the author of the article. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 00:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

More examples of copy-pasting are given below. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 03:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I think it's reasonable to keep this article, although it will need work. By presenting the historical and current attempts to describe gravity as a guage field it balances Kaluza–Klein theory, which attempts to describe gauge fields as part of gravity with higher dimensions. It's a well established research program and deserves an article. We might also consider a merge and/or partial inclusion with MacDowell-Mansouri action. Scientryst ( talk) 01:40, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• There's a note on this AfDs talk page from User:Gsard. Beeblebrox ( talk) 07:29, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Speedy Keep Concept is legit and I don't see what the copyvio is. Headbomb { ^ταλκ _{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment. The sentence "The first gauge model of gravity was suggested by R. Utiyama in 1956 just two years after birth of the gauge theory itself." appears word-for-word on the first page of the linked article. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 16:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment. The sentence "At the same time, given a linear frame ${\displaystyle \vartheta _{a}}$, the decomposition ${\displaystyle \theta =\vartheta ^{a}\otimes \vartheta _{a}}$ motivates many authors to treat a coframe ${\displaystyle \vartheta ^{a}}$ as a translation gauge field." appears word-for-word on page 4 of the ArXiV article. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 17:01, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

This would not appear sufficient to rise to the level of copyright violation. By the way, the ArXiV publication is not an article but the preface to a special journal issue on gauge gravitation theory. It addresses the geometry underlying these theories. The article under discussion here presents an introductory overview of these theories in general, not just from a geometric pov--although the latter appears in the last paragraph. If the editor is the author of that preface ( Gennadi A. Sardanashvily), his participation on Wikipedia should be encouraged. 88.234.1.171 ( talk) 15:20, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment. The quotes are unattributed. Is there some rule governing the number of words that can be copied directly from a copyrighted source under which the plagiarism is not considered a copyright violation? I fail to see what the rest of your post has to do with the substance of my objection to this article. Also, I have provided two examples of ostensible word-for-word copying. It is difficult to find these, and I have no doubt that there are more of them in the article. How many more words are necessary to establish copyright violation? siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 15:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Two more sentences are substantially identical: "General covariant transformations are sufficient in order to restart Einstein's General Relativity and metric-affine gravitation theory as the gauge ones." and "These sections are treated as classical Higgs fields." A few more sentences, although reworded, show a strong commonality. I am not an intellectual-property lawyer, but considering the factors mentioned under Fair use#Fair use under United States laws, I am convinced this is all well on the safe side. If not, it should be easy enough to tweak the wording of these three sentences; in any case, AfD is not the best process for dealing with this. If the authors were different persons, this might be considered plagiarism--an entirely different issue--but apparently they are not. 88.234.1.171 ( talk) 18:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

if the sentences are of particularly important wording, we would normally quote them, & that would be fair use. They do not seem to be, so the obvious course is to rewrite them somewhat--they are in legal terms fair use, but we usually none the less avoid it. As for plagiarism, even if one is quoting from one's own previously published works, they must be attributed. There have been some other instances of this, where people have republished their textbooks or papers on WP--sometimes where no copyright is involved, because the books have been PD or GFDL-equivalent. Usually the writing style for a scientific paper -- or for a textbook--is not really appropriate herein any case. DGG ( talk) 22:20, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Keep The article, of course, needs much work. However the topic itself is legit, supported by the large body of scientific literature, and, hence, notable. Ruslik ( talk) 12:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment. Your !vote of keep fails to address the substance of the reason for nomination, which is that the article was copied substantially from another source in likely violation of the copyright owner. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 01:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• More copyvios. Portions of the article are also copied from G. Sardanashvily, "Classical gauge theory of gravity," Theoretical and Mathematical Physics, 132(2): 1163-1171 (2002). The paragraph:

"The idea of the pseudo-Riemannian metric as a Higgs field appeared while constructing non-linear (induced) representations of the general linear group ${\displaystyle GL(4,\mathbb {R} )}$, of which the Lorentz group is a Cartan subgroup. ^[1] The geometric equivalence principle postulating the existence of a reference frame in which Lorentz invariants are defined on the whole world manifold is the theoretical justification of that the structure group ${\displaystyle GL(4,\mathbb {R} )}$ of the linear frame bundle ${\displaystyle FX}$ is reduced to the Lorentz group."

Is identical, apart from some trivial changes, to a paragraph appearing on p. 1164 of the above referenced article. Before the next keep vote, could someone please answer the question posed above: How many words can be directly copy-pasted into a new article, without attribution or fair-use rationale, before that article is fair game for deletion? So far we have four sentences copied from one source, and an entire paragraph from another. I thought that such blatant copyright infringement was grounds for speedy deletion ( WP:CSG#G12). If not, I would ask that someone please point me to the place in policy that indicates that it is acceptable for a new article to contain wholesale unattributed cut-pastes from previously published resources. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 01:38, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

the rule of thumb for plagarism is seven consecutive words without quotation marks or attribution. I don't know of a hard and fast rule for copyright violations at the 'length of text' level. Wikipedia's rule for "copyvio" deletions (ones which go to {{ Db-g12}}) is that the text be copied almost in whole, in one edit and there doesn't exists a 'clean' revision to return the page to. For less clear violations (such as this one), Wikipedia:Copyright_problems is a good venue. AfD works as well, but copyright problems has some dedicated editors. Protonk ( talk) 03:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 02:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Paul Croft

Paul Croft (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Contested prod. If notable at all then purely passing notability, a one event. Unusual? Quite ^TalkQu 23:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete. Non-notable, faint whiff of hate crime. Franciscrot ( talk) 23:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete. not notable, sound very POV. -- Empire3131 ( talk) 23:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete. Notability entirely transient. Deb ( talk) 23:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Can't we like userfy? Transwiki to Uncy? Meta as cautionary tale? If not, sadly delete I mean, this is hilarious, if not notable. Thanks!-- Cerejota ( talk) 11:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep Evidently notable. Note that that notability does not expire and WP:ONEEVENT requires a separate article on the event to be applicable. Colonel Warden ( talk) 12:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Which means the event was far too minor to be worth an article--which given that's all the subject is known for, doesn't exactly help your case.

• Delete. A Sun story disguised as an article. -- CalendarWatcher ( talk) 13:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Comment. Croft=Cruft. Also, this article might be a BLP issue. Are you ready for IPv6? ( talk) 13:17, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Merge. To Dumbledore. 85.92.130.47 ( talk) 17:27, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete on humanitarian grounds as well as maintaining the standards of the place. Probably created as an act of attempted vandalism. The creator is probably laughing his socks off at this serious discussion resulting from his actions. (Deliberate wording there?) Peridon ( talk) 18:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Merge to Dumbledore. There's at least 2 reliable sources and while giving the whole incident an article of its own, putting it in perspective, would explain more about the effects of JKR's announcement about Dumbledore. - Mgm| ^(talk) 19:30, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Question?: People have voted delete here to avoid harm to the subject of the article but is it really all that bad to add a sentence or two in the Dumbledore article about this incident and point the subjects name to Dumbledore? Consider that the subject already willingly went to the press on his own I can't see it all that bad for the subject. - RhadamanthNemesis —Preceding unsigned comment added by RhadamanthNemesis ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Speedy Deleteas BLP violation. The true essence of ONEEVENT--repeating trivialities that do not reflect well on anyone from the worst levels of the UK tabloid press. As a general rule, any article where the most reliable of the sources is the Sun is probable unsuitable for Wikipedia. In any case, i removed a sentence with the names of his children, as an application of Do no harm. I am not happy with the way we often employ our BLP policy, which I think we often misuse to remove information about matters that are of significance, but we do need BLP, and this article show why. I invite some other admin to concur with me and speedy delete. I would think exactly the same of this content if added to any other WP article. DGG ( talk) 22:34, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• It's the duty of The Sun to avoid BLP violations. It's their problem, not Wikipedia's. Wikipedia articles should only be proxying their content, in a sense, per the WP:NOR policy.-- ProvidentialPrudence ( talk) 00:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment. Amazing how an AfD for such a minor article written by a blocked user is so inspirational that it encourages two new editors register accounts and post here first. Unusual? Quite ^TalkQu 18:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete per DGG. John254 22:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to Nemesis (Sri Lankan band). MBisanz ^talk 03:25, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Mihindu Ariyaratne

Mihindu Ariyaratne (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Fails WP:MUSICBIO. Canniba loki 22:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Delete as fails WP:MUSICBIO. Jo7hs2 ( talk) 00:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Merge and or redirect. He's a member of what appears to be a notable band (Nemesis) so he should be covered there, though not neccesarily in a separate article like this. - Mgm| ^(talk) 19:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete: insufficient notability WP:MUSICBIO. JamesBurns ( talk) 02:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was speedy keep. per WP:SNOW, editing has addressed the nom's concerns. Mgm| ^(talk) 19:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

SLUG Magazine

SLUG Magazine (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Article on an underground magazine which lacks a single independent source and has not been fixed despite being tagged for improvement since July 2007. Guy ( Help!) 22:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Keep. It is indeed almost 20 years old. I'll work on it. Cool Hand Luke 00:30, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep AFD is not cleanup. See WP:NOEFFORT. Colonel Warden ( talk) 12:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep. Longstanding magazine. Article already improved. -- Michig ( talk) 14:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep — looks good enough to establish notability, now. MuZemike ( talk) 17:51, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. – Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 22:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Brooks O'Hea

Brooks O'Hea (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Non-notable. Google search reveals no immediate information, same for news search. Award listed appears to be a local non-notable competition. LH ( talk) 22:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Delete advert for non-notable martial artist 1 hit mentions him as part of the 'Black belt centre' not mention of his record for kicks or other claims out side the centre site on a search, meaning claims to notability are unsupported -- Nate 14 81 10:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

See also the Martial arts project essay on notability -- Nate 14 81 10:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete these accomplishments are not notable. JJL ( talk) 19:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 22:39, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Quadruple bluff

Quadruple bluff (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Standard Triple-N: Non-notable neologism. Also, Wikipedia is not a dictionary, let alone of the aforementioned. Vianello ( talk) 22:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete due to lack of notability, lack of common use, and non-encyclopedic content. Try http://www.wiktionary.org/, although I doubt it merits inclusion there, as it seems to be a non-notable neologism. Jo7hs2 ( talk) 00:17, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Strong Delete - Wikipedia is not a dictionary and is not for things made up one day, which AFAICT is what this is. 2 D ^C 00:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• KEEP As the origonal auther of this article I have updated it sighting 4 aditional sources; A TV review, A book, an article from one of the UK's most respected newspapers "The Guardian", and a transcript of a cermon given by The Bishop of Sherborne in Salsbury Cathederal. as these all cover a large period of time and geographical location, I feel it would be inproper to delete this article. Stew9021 ( talk) 08:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. These would indeed seem to address the allegations of it being a non-notable neologism and/or made-up. Unfortunately, the dictionary definition issue still looms. - Vianello ( talk) 09:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
    • Comment.Whilst I would agree that this appears to be a mere dictionary definition, my inclusion of an example of usage and links to other definitions, e.g. poker, for background on the origin of bluffing make it a valid entry. Stew9021 ( talk) 09:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
      • You haven't actually added anything that isn't part of a dictionary article. The quotations showing this phrase in use are classic dictionary article material, for example. So are the language, part of speech, and inflection lines. And you haven't cited a single source that supports the descriptions of what quadruple bluffs are. So what we have is a dictionary article padded with original research, apparently. Uncle G ( talk) 15:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply
      • quadruple bluff is what your dictionary article looks like when properly formatted, by the way. Uncle G ( talk) 15:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete - per WP:NEO there need to be independent reliable sources that are about this term, not just that use the term. Otto4711 ( talk) 12:06, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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The result was merge to Clear Brook High School. — Aitias //  discussion 23:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Clear Brook Wolverines football

Clear Brook Wolverines football (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

NN local highschool football team. Would be okay with merging into the article for the relevant school. roux    21:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Weak delete — I do not think there is anything verifiable here to merge into Clear Brook High School. However, if someone wishes to redirect or smerge, I won't object. MuZemike ( talk) 22:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Merge to Clear Brook High School. I know, high school football is a bigger deal in Texas than in many places, but even state championship teams are mentioned as part of the school, not in their own right. There's nothing here that can't be mentioned in the article about the high school. Mandsford ( talk) 00:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Merge to Clear Brook High School; no particular reason to delete. TerriersFan ( talk) 01:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Merge as proposed above. Deb ( talk) 14:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Merge per nom, and per WP:BEFORE. Neier ( talk) 05:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Closing per obvious consensus. — Aitias //  discussion 00:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Esteghlal Scorers in 2008-09 season

Esteghlal Scorers in 2008-09 season (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Unnecessary list. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and I feel a list of 2008-2009 season scorers is completely unnecessary. Scapler ( talk) 21:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Delete per WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE. Didn't we have something like this for Esteghlal before? пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 13:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete per nom & Number57. Giant Snowman 16:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Delete Per nom. Govvy ( talk) 17:40, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete per nom. This information also appears in a parent article; Esteghlal F.C. season 2008-09. Author had deleted AfD note from article (twice). Similar article Persepolis Scorers in 2008-09 season tagged speedy (notice removed by author but now re-instated), also in a parent article speedy deleted in the time it took me to add this!. Author notified on both counts--ClubOranje ^Talk 22:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 03:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Blair House (disambiguation)

Blair House (disambiguation) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

First of all, I'm not sure if this even belongs at AFD. I couldn't find anything as far as policies or guidelines go about nominating disambiguation pages for deletion, and was on the fence about whether to list here or on MFD, but since dab pages technically live in mainspace, I placed it here.

That said, I nominate this article for deletion because it is unnecessary. There are currently two "Blair House" articles - one for Washington DC, which takes the primary topic, and one in Montgomery, Ohio that takes a parenthetical in its title. The main topic has a direct link to the other as a hatnote, and the second topic is already unambiguous. Thus this dab page is quite unnecessary, and ripe for deletion. SchuminWeb ( Talk) 21:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Comment. My understanding is that NRHP generally does not do hatnotes. WP:MOSDAB says that 2-article dab pages are unnecessary but harmless. • Gene93k ( talk) 21:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete The Blair House is a famous Washington landmark. I don't even know where Montgomery, Ohio is, nor do I particularly care that it has a "Blair House" on the National Register of Historic Places. There is no ambiguity to be resolved here. Mandsford ( talk) 00:41, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Strong keep such figures as the former British prime minister tony blair are believed to live in buildings called houses. -- Balloholic ( talk) 01:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

  And if it ain't 10 Downing Street, it probably ain't notable. Mandsford ( talk) 02:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

  Agreed. Nothing has been made to show that anything other than 10 Downing Street is notable as a residence of Tony Blair's. SchuminWeb ( Talk) 04:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete. Hatnote on Blair House suffices. This dab page, as Gene93k noted, is unnecessary but harmless. If they are nominated for deletion, then they should be deleted. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete. The hatnotes are sufficient. - Mgm| ^(talk) 19:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. MBisanz ^talk 22:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Runa Akasaka

Runa Akasaka (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Does not meet wp:PORN BIO - Omarcheeseboro ( talk) 21:08, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Keep She is notable. I intended to work on this article later, and, before this AfD was started, I left a note stating this on the talk page of the article's creator. Japanese erotic cinema is a notoriously difficult area in which to work, and this article was created today. AfDing this within hours of its creation without first putting templates of concern over notability/sourcing is an abuse of AfD process. Dekkappai ( talk) 21:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Keep for the same reasons as above. Makitomoda ( talk) 21:52, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Keep per the reasons from the article creator and WP:BEFORE.  Esradekan Gibb  ^"Talk" 22:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Question: And the subject meets wp:PORN BIO in what way? -- Omarcheeseboro ( talk) 23:17, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment: wp:PORN BIO are not criteria that have to be met - they are additional criteria for adding someone - I quote from that section: "Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included". Notability should be gauged against peers in the subject area, the DMM website ( http://dmm.co.jp) lists more than 20,000 Japanese AV actresses, Akasaka is definitely notable among this group. Cherryblossom1982 ( talk) 18:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep Her notability is shown by her extensive career and filmography while working for major Japanese AV studios. Cherryblossom1982 ( talk) 23:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)Cherryblossom1982 reply
• Question The nominator began attempting to delete this article-- in a subject area in which he has up until now shown no interest or knowledge that I am aware of-- within two minutes of its creation. After Prodding it and AfDing it, now he puts a "Notability" tag on it. Here's my question: Huh? Dekkappai ( talk) 23:57, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: The notability tag was placed on after examining WP:BEFORE. Ideally I would've put in on beforehand, but I figure now is better than never. Also I did not know you had to be an subject matter expert to edit a Wikipedia article. In addition I'm still wondering how this meets wp:PORN BIO. -- Omarcheeseboro ( talk) 00:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
    • Comment I guess it's just a weakness of mine. I don't like to barge into areas on subjects, in languages, and in cultures in which I have not edited, am apparently totally unfamiliar, and start saying, "This goes, this stays," before asking those who have some experience in the area. But that's me-- I'm here to contribute, not gain status by deleting. An increasingly minority attitude here. Dekkappai ( talk) 00:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment I've added a little to the article which shows that this actress is a performer in the jukujo ( 熟女) "mature woman" genre who has broken out of that niche to appear in at least one mainstream theatrical release, and the mainstream men's entertainment magazine Weekly Playboy. Dekkappai ( talk) 20:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete . She does not meet any of the three criteria listed at WP:PORN BIO. NoVomit ( talk) 06:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment These are Additional criteria FOR including someone, NOT rules for exclusion. Notability is not strictly defined by a set of rules and no failure to meet one rule or another should be grounds for exclusion. Cherryblossom1982 ( talk) 07:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment There is a huge problem with Wikipedia's notability criteria which I hope will be realized and adressed some day. In direct contradiction to article-editing policies requiring reliable, secondary sources, our definition of "notability" is a purely home-made, Original Research mess. This is why they are constantly changing, this is why they so miserably fail to address any subject which is outside the interest of the average Wikipedian editor demographic, and this is why applying them literally to any and all cases-- regardless of country, culture, time period, genre, etc.-- results in bias. As the discussion to create WP:PORNBIO shows, these "notability" criteria are created by pure Original Research with no regard to reliable sources in the subject. One editor comes in with hand raised, "Ooh! Ooh! I have an idea, let's say they're notable if..." other editors chip in with personal opinions, and all the biases that may include and the policy is set. So, how about we follow Wikipedia editing requirements, and look at what the reliable, secondary sources say about Japanese erotic entertainment? First: Erotic entertainers such as Akasaka have a much higher profile (i.e., are more "notable") within Japanese society than are there U.S. counterparts. In The Australian Journal of Media & Culture, Rosemary Iwamura wrote, "In Japan there is not the same line drawn between pornography and family entertainment that there is in the West. Here in Japan, a more liberated view about sex blurs that line." [1] Second, to determine what a "notable" Japanese AV actress is, let's see what a reliable, secondary source defines an "average" Japanese AV actress. In the Tokyo Journal, author and Japan-correspondent, Kjell Fornander [2] wrote, that the average AV career lasts one year, and produces between five and ten videos. [3] So, has Akasaka appeared in mainstream Japanese media? Almost certainly. However the policy of the Japanese media of constantly removing good sources from the web, and blocking their archiving, makes this extremely difficult to prove. (see: Mainichi_Shimbun#WaiWai_controversy_and_cancellation for one high-profile example of this-- "tabloid" includes not only the sensationalist drivel which offended the readers, but also occasional reliable interviews and articles on subjects in the field of erotic entertainment.) Nevertheless, we see that Akasaka-- a niche-genre performer-- has appeared in mainstream media such as pink film, V-cinema and Weekly Playboy. Also, she clearly exceeds the "average" AV actress career in length of career-- exceeding the outside limit (one year) by at least three time), and by number of starring videos (the outside being 10) by over six times. Clearly, when judged against the average Japanese AV actress, she is notable. Dekkappai ( talk) 20:00, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment: I'm sure Runa is flattered that she's elicited so much passion, but isn't your argument for another page? It doesn't seem right to fault/debate other editors for following guidelines, confessed deletionist or not. -- Omarcheeseboro ( talk) 21:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment: I don't see the "passion" in the argument, and I've only recently worked on this article. I don't want notable subjects deleted, and if you cared about the good of Wikipedia, neither would you. I simply quoted from a definition of notability from reliable secondary sources on the subject of Japanese erotic entertainment, and compared this subject to them. The only "passion" I see is in the blind loyalty to a group of rules set up by pure original research, given a false stamp of legitimacy through a "consensus" based in personal opinion. Dekkappai ( talk) 22:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete Doesn't meet WP:PORNBIO. The sources found either don't mention her, or look like database or retail sites. Epbr123 ( talk) 21:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Comment: WP:PORNBIO seems to be hopelessly biased towards how the AV industry works in the West, to the point that attempting to apply it to Asian actors seems to be not a good idea. Avoiding that notability shortcut and resorting to the general notability requirements would be in order. — Quasirandom ( talk) 23:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Note: Every source listed at the article mentions Akasaka, except for the Weisser reference, which describes the long-running pink film series in which she appeared, and the Fornander source which is used to compare Akasaka's career to that of an average AV performer. Dekkappai ( talk) 00:34, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep. This seems to meet GNG and seems well-written for being several days old. I'm willing to assume good faith in our editors on this one. Consider sending to DYK as well. -- Banjeboi 03:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Weak Keep - Even though I nominated this for AFD, the article has been expanded nicely to show a bit of mainstream coverage, and like the above poster, I'm assuming good faith about the references and more improvement. -- Omarcheeseboro ( talk) 03:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep--Nomination withdraw.-- Jmundo ( talk) 17:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 03:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

1994 Hindi movie songs

1994 Hindi movie songs (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Unremarkable orphaned article with little content. JaGa ^talk 20:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Delete as this list has the potential of being one of the largest in Wiki history and yet has only 2 songs. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:04, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep but significantly enlarge... flaming lawye r ^c 17:39, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Would there be enough information to write an article on any of these songs (assuming the author writing them knows Hindi?- Mgm| ^(talk) 19:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete Good point. flaming lawye r ^c 22:17, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Question: Is the a list of Hindi movie songs to which this can be merged? Perhaps someone from Cinema of India knows. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete: non-notable listcruft. JamesBurns ( talk) 02:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. – Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 22:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Buhdumtsh

Buhdumtsh (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

• Delete Notability, spam, etc. Trying not to be sarcastic here, but a whole application that contains a single audio file, plays it and quits... that's it? Granted the article was written by the author of the application, but how has this article managed to last for over a month? AlistairMcMillan ( talk) 20:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete. Application is not notable and no citations are referenced to support any claims. NoVomit ( talk) 20:42, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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The result was no consensus. MBisanz ^talk 22:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

List of Jewish American actors in television

List of Jewish American actors in television (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Was PRODed and removed for irrelevant reason. This is a three-way intersection of trivial and unsubstantiated (for two years) factoids. There are, and never were, any predecessors to lists like this List of Christian actors in television, list of Irish American actors in television, etc... To say "then source it" is not an argument for keeping. Time has proven that this list is either unsourcable or of no interest to anyone to source - either way, it's not a list that would be on wikipedia. JJPennyson ( talk) 20:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC)— JJPennyson ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

• Comment I'm not sure if this is keepable or not, but a.) the nominator is an apparent SPA, b.) their argument is basically "other stuff does not exist", which doesn't hold up very well, and c.) this seems sourceable enough to me. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{( Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 20:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete Apart from any other considerations, the list appears to be organised by programme (should I say program as this is an American list?) rather than being a list of actors. Peridon ( talk) 20:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Comment As much as I fail to see the purpose of this list as opposed to the purpose of Category:Jewish actors, I see the main problem with the organization of Lists of people and its sublists, which remind me very much of the ill-fated List of people by name, see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/List of people by name from 1.5 years ago. Although I'd recommend deletion per nom, it's unwise to single out this list here as the only "culprit". – sgeureka ^{t• c} 22:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete this, and also List of Italian American actors and list of Irish American actors as listcruft. Also delete everything in Category:American actors by ethnic or national origin as categorycruft. Scaldi ( talk) 22:04, 26 December 2008 (UTC) — Scaldi ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

• Anyone think this is a sock? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{( Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 22:08, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• It is. Scaldi was blocked for sockpuppetry. - Mgm| ^(talk) 17:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep. Probably a bad faith nomination.   LinguistAt Large  22:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Speedy keep as a bad-faith nomination. I think the list can be reliably sourced in one way, shape, or form. I also smell something from a sock drawer, as new users normally do not come on here knowing how to nominate and participate in AFDs. MuZemike ( talk) 22:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete Accusing people of sockpuppetry does not distract from the basic problems here. The article is thoroughly lacking in references, which is a major turnoff. It is sloppily researched and missing major names (no mention of Milton Berle, Bud Abbott, Buddy Hackett, Jack Benny, George Burns, Jerry Lewis, Sammy Davis Jr. and other prominent TV stars of the 1950s and 1960s). To have a seriously encyclopedic overhaul would require intensive research with confirmation that the people on the list are active members of the Jewish faith. This article, however, doesn't make the grade. Ecoleetage ( talk) 00:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep per above. In an age where people still remark, "I didn't know he was Jewish!", the list serves as a good counterpart to the (yawn) category. It reminds me of Adam Sandler's line, "You can spin the dreidel with Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock, both Jewish!" Mandsford ( talk) 00:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

But Eco is right that this needs a source (voice of Jerry Stiller: "It would kill you to tell how you know this?"). Mandsford ( talk) 00:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep- As the remover of the prod, I hardly think my reasoning was "irrelevant". As I stated, the problem with the article is that it was unsourced, not that it is unsourceable. Any problems with an article that CAN be sourced, and ISN'T, is not a problem for AFD. Now, whether or not you think the list is worthy of keeping, that's another discussion. I personally, think its worth keeping, since I feel it meets the criteria set forth by the appropriate policy. I won't shed a tear if the final vote is delete however. That said, I also deleted the prod because, last i checked, prod's were for deletions that the prodder thinks won't be disputed. As shown by the fact that there are other keep votes, its obvious that I was right in thinking that. Umbralcorax ( talk) 01:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep - I mean, seriously. However, please people, WP:AGF????? Thanks!-- Cerejota ( talk) 13:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep A notable intersection, per common sense and a knowledge of the role of jewish American actors in television, and the abundant available sourcing. The reason for the "in television" intersection is the extensive nature of the material. If there's enough for Irish ... and Italian... I'd do just the same for them. DGG ( talk) 22:39, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete per MuZemike and then burn the sock drawer. JBsupreme ( talk) 02:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep per withdrawal. ( WP:NAC) flaming lawye r ^c 22:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Dave Page (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Non-notable cobbler. The one RS from the Dallas Star does not meet the criteria for multiple third-party sources. Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 19:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)WITHDRAWN: Yep, the improvements to RS satisfy notability requirements, IMO. Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 20:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• delete - non-notable. google search turned up his shoe store. Jason Quinn ( talk) 22:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Weak delete: Would need more than one RS reference to show notability. This might be an interesting, quirky life story but encyclopaedic notability has yet to be proved. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 23:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Keep. Certainly does not qualify as notable under WP:PROF. But has enough independent media coverage to justify keeping under WP:BIO, in my opinion.-- Eric Yurken ( talk) 16:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I created a reflist section and added a few more references to the article. I also reorganized the text a little bit to highlight the main notability claim.-- Eric Yurken ( talk) 16:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep The article has been improved and is now sufficiently interesting to fall under WP:BIO. He is certainly no longer an academic and should not be judged by that standard.-- RandomHumanoid^{( ⇒)} 20:01, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was Speedy close "Confusing" is not a reason to delete and no other reason was given. Non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{( Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 20:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Stone functor

Stone functor (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Stub article that is very difficult to understand by the general audience of Wikipedia and the general public. Therefore Delete. Andy ( talk) 18:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep. This is not a reason to delete, unless it gets so confusing that nobody can even tell what the article is about, which is not the case here. Tagged with a {{ confusing}} template. -- Blanchardb - ^{Me• MyEars• MyMouth}- timed 18:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment. Thanks for that Blancharb. The tag has been put on the article. Andy ( talk) 19:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. MBisanz ^talk 03:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Cross and flame

Cross and flame (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

The United Methodist Church is clearly notable, and has its own article. However, there is no suggestion that its Cross and flame logo is notable in its own right. Have any reliable, third party sources written about it in detail? Papa November ( talk) 18:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Merge to United Methodist Church. Athough this could stand on its own, there is really very little to say. It would be better as a section in the other article. Northwestgnome ( talk) 20:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Keep and improve - there is a memoir here [4] and news of the death of the creator here [5] - Google for "edward j mikula" cross and flameand similar. eg: United Methodist Women have taken the mark and created their own stylized version to remind them of the opportunities and obligations of discipleship. The Women's Program Division's reproduction of the insignia always appears within a teardrop-shaped outline. Too much to add to United Methodist Church. P.S.: I am worried about losing my Deletionist leanings - is this old age? Springnuts ( talk) 00:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Both those links appear to be United Methodist publications. Is there anything from independent sources? Papa November ( talk) 00:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I don't think that there is anything wrong with United Methodist sources here. No one else is likely to write something on the topic. But that doesn't make it non-notable. You can see one in almost any American town. I voted to delete because it would be an interesting addition to the main article and would never be much on its own, not because it's not notable. Northwestgnome ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC). reply

• Keep per Springnuts' suggestions and sources brought up. I think the current United Methodist Church is pretty long already and probably wouldn't have much room for this, but it is a common and recognizable symbol and is notable enough to be mentioned. I don't know if the article title is good or not; is "cross and flame" the typical name of the symbol? — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 18:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep and expand per sources included above in this discussion. Jclemens ( talk) 06:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep and expand--major religious logos like this usually do have a significance and justify an article. DGG ( talk) 22:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. MBisanz ^talk 03:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Michael Jenkins (Unification Church)

Michael Jenkins (Unification Church) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Not notable. No significant, independent, reliable coverage cited in article. In the six months since this article's original nomination, none of the WP:RSes whose existence were asserted in that first AfD have eventuated. Although he is apparently the president of the Unification Church of the United States (although the cited source only says "Moon's top church official in North America"), his notability in that position is apparently so slight that (as of time of nomination) he is not even mentioned in that article. Hrafn ^Talk _Stalk 17:56, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete This is another of those "person with a job" articles. It also should be added the the president of the Unification Church has more of a role as a public relations type person rather than executive or administrative responsibilities. This is not made clear in the article. Northwestgnome ( talk) 20:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Comment. Nomination rationale is largely WP:DEADLINE. I will look at the article again, but I'm still inclined to stick by my keep vote in the first AfD. • Gene93k ( talk) 21:52, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment: Gene93k, I would suggest that you read WP:DEADLINE more closely. It also states a view that: "We can afford to take our time, to consider matters, to wait before creating a new article until its significance is unambiguously established." This would seem to work against this article existing at this point. And I do not think that it is unreasonable to expect that, if any purported RSes that were raised in an AfD had any significance, and were going to be added into the article, that this would have occured well before six months were up. As to your 'keep' vote in the first AfD, it was simply WP:GOOGLEHITS. Hrafn ^Talk _Stalk 03:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete no claim to notablity and no sources to prove otherside. Tgreach ( talk) 23:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Comment I don't want to vote on the article about a personal friend. However Mike has, and does play an important role, and yes it is in part a PR role, in the process which moved the Unification Church to more normal relations with mainstream American society. However the story has not been written up yet, even by church sources. Steve Dufour ( talk) 02:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Redirect to Unification Church of the United States and mention Jenkins in the Unification Church#Future church leadership section. His job is a pretty notable one, but I don't see any media coverage right now of what he's done in his job (as Steve Dufour says, it hasn't been written up yet in any good sources) so there's not much to make an article out of, but he's notable enough that his name should at least exist as a redirect. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 18:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment: why redirect to Unification Church, rather than Unification Church of the United States? It also seems unlikely, given the small size of the US church, relative to the South Korean branch, that an American would assume "Future church leadership" of the worldwide church (plus we'd need a WP:RS for such a speculation) -- so mentioning him in that section would seem problematic. Hrafn ^Talk _Stalk 19:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• You're correct. Sorry, I hadn't noticed that there was a separate article just for the church in the US. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 19:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep Even the snippets available at Google News show Jenkins' position and role cited by plenty of reliable sources over the years. Nomination shows no evidence of having attempted to satisfy WP:BEFORE. Jclemens ( talk) 22:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment: these WP:GOOGLEHITS seem to be simply for Jenkins acting as a spokesman for the UC, not coverage on him. WP:BEFORE has been met. Hrafn ^Talk _Stalk 23:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• WP:GOOGLEHITS is inapplicable; the argument is regarding the quality of the Google news sources, not simply the number of hits. I've added a couple of the freely accessible ones and essentially doubled the article's coverage. Jclemens ( talk) 07:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep The person, as the leader of a significant religion, is worthy of note in a stand-alone article. 24.21.105.252 ( talk) 00:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

As was mentioned above Mr. Jenkins is not the leader of the American Unification Church. He doesn't make decisions or tell people what to do. Northwestgnome ( talk) 06:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment I've added several independent RS citations to the article--unfortunately, several of them are not freely available on the web, but all are described adequately that any major library should be able to locate them. I'd appreciate it if the delete !voters could reexamine the article, let me know if it meets WP:HEY and, if not, what additional demonstration of notability would be needed. Cheers, Jclemens ( talk) 22:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep -- the references provided in Michael_Jenkins_(Unification_Church)#References indicate sufficient coverage of this person in third-party reliable sources to establish a presumption of his notability per the general notability guideline. John254 22:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep. Noatable and sources exist - the rest is clean-up. -- Banjeboi 02:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Closing per obvious consensus. — Aitias //  discussion 17:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Nicholas Berubé

Nicholas Berubé (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Contested PROD, with reason given that it should be discussed at WP:AFD. My original reason for deletion remains the same: there is no evidence of non-trivial coverage in multiple, reliable sources that would satisfy WP:N or allow a full, neutral biography to be written about this individual. The sole provided reference is not about Berubé at all, but about an organization that preserved some of the information that he compiled (if my understanding of this is correct). If there is anything verifiable, then perhaps it could be merged into Stazi, but even that might be a stretch. I am aware that, as a member of a secret organization, I shouldn't expect volumes of information, but if he was a notable figure, then he should have received at least some non-trivial coverage in multiple, reliable, third-party sources. Cheers, CP 17:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete. No hint of notability for this person, just for the projects he worked on. -- Blanchardb - ^{Me• MyEars• MyMouth}- timed 18:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete I can't even verify he existed by searching on his name, or berube & stasi; the site provided has no mention of him. John Z ( talk) 21:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Delete per WP:V. No evidence without WP:RS that this individual or his actions were notable. Is being an informant in a police state all that remarkable? • Gene93k ( talk) 22:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Comment-- Notification was not given to the editors of the article about this discussion. -- Jmundo ( talk) 15:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • I notified the others now; thanks for pointing this out. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 17:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete I respect Jmundo's judgment and agree with him that this article should go to AfD...but I see no evidence that this individual did anything important in his role as a clerk in the French underground. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 17:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete--Internet search comes empty, the stazi secret police did a good job of concealing his death or maybe I watch too many Hollywood movies.-- Jmundo ( talk) 17:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete as an unsourced negative biography of a possibly living person. I would also point out that any statements in this discussion that assume the subject's guilt are in breach of BLP policy. Phil Bridger ( talk) 16:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The Detroit Lions Radio Network

The result was Keep per WP:KEEP / WP:SNOW. ( non-admin closure) flaming lawye r ^c 17:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

The Detroit Lions Radio Network (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Unnotable group of broadcasters that a football team syndicates stuff to. This can easily be covered in the main article.

And no, I am not nominating this because the Lions did horrible this year, I just see no notability. ViperSnake151 17:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Very strong keep This article is even more notable since several Lions game have been blacked out this season and loyal fans who can't afford to go to the game must listen on the radio. TomCat4680 ( talk) 18:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

The fact that a page is useful is not an good argument for keeping the page. ViperSnake151 19:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

you had your say Viper, now let other people have theirs and don't argue with people. TomCat4680 ( talk) 00:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• strong keep Sports-teams affiliated media networks is well established, absent any specific guidelines for establishing notability of a media network I see nothing in WP:N that would support a delete. Raitchison ( talk) 19:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Merge Would be better off as a subsection of the Detroit Lions. Emarsee ^{( Talk • Contribs)} 19:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep This article and the other one appear to have been nominated following an edit war on the main article. [6]. It makes no difference "who started it". Nobody wins in a battl of reversions. Generally, a network of radio and television affiliates for sports broadcasting would be considered notable, and it does not appear that the article about the team would accomodate the information at this time. Mandsford ( talk) 19:29, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep as the broadcast network of a major sports team is generally notable, as a spinoff of the main article it does inherit some notability from the parent, and it easily clears the verifiability threshold based on a quick Google News search. The article could use some improvement (including a history section) and I'm always happy to see better sourcing but it's good enough to keep as is. - Dravecky ( talk) 20:17, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Strong Keep: Per Dravecky. - NeutralHomer • Talk • December 27, 2008 @ 00:28
• Keep Inherently notable. Needs references though.-- Rtphokie ( talk) 02:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Merge per Emarsee. All I see is a paragraph and a lovely example of WP:NOT#DIR. In it's current form, it doesn't warrant a separate article. JPG-GR ( talk) 14:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The Detroit Lions Television Network

The result was Keep per WP:KEEP / WP:SNOW. flaming lawye r ^c 22:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

The Detroit Lions Television Network (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Unnotable group of broadcasters that a football team syndicates stuff to. This can easily be covered in the main article. And no, I am not nominating this because the Lions did horrible this year, I just see no notability. ViperSnake151 17:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Very strong keep Deleting this article is like saying there's no Lions fans left, and that's clearly not true. Just because they're not doing good doesn't mean you should remove anything that gives loyal fans the information they need to watch them. TomCat4680 ( talk) 18:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• strong keep Sports-teams affiliated media networks is well established, absent any specific guidelines for establishing notability of a media network I see nothing in WP:N that would support a delete. Raitchison ( talk) 19:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep This article and the other one appear to have been nominated following an edit war on the main article. [7]. It makes no difference "who started it". Nobody wins in a battle of reversions. Generally, a network of radio and television affiliates for sports broadcasting would be considered notable, and it does not appear that the article about the team would accomodate the information at this time. Mandsford ( talk) 19:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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The result was no consensus. article has significantly changed during the AFD rendering some of the comments inapplicable, there consensus cannot be determined. MBisanz ^talk 03:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Tweener Generation

Tweener Generation (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Contested prod. No source attesting that the first sentence of the article, which says "commonly referred to" is true. At best, it is a term whose use is marginal. Delete.  Blanchardb - ^{Me• MyEars• MyMouth}- timed 16:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment. There are a few good google news hits. There are many many more google hits, but their quality is difficult to judge. I am neutral on the question of whether it should be kept, but if it is, then it desperately needs cleanup and more reliable references. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 16:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• KEEP: Read the 1996 cover article written by Andrea Stone who I believe coined the term. I am checking with her now. URL http://www.tweeners.org/usatoday.htm) I have added quite a few sources. I will also add the NIH statistics for birth rates. archiemartin Archie Martin ( talk) 17:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep The term is in use although it is not as common as Boomer or Gen X. The article could use some work but its noteworthy. NoVomit ( talk) 17:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment Change to redirect. An article by the name of Generation Jones already covers this generation. NoVomit ( talk) 17:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• • Comment The Generation Jones article states that it comes just before this one, albeit with one year of possible overlap. Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 21:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep A. Generation Jones Does not cover this topic in the least. Redirect would negate the entire purpose of article and said definition which needs correction in the first place. Generation Jones only discusses years up to 1965 and covers social , economoic and politcal areas without relation to etymology and birth rates. It does not even attempt to cover birth rates, which are at the academic fundamental core of the Baby Boom by literal definition. Further, the term, "Generation Jones" is not widely used. This article does not relate to the Tweener Generation as these years of birth rate drops from 1964 - 1968 are not covered nor is the American use terminology or definition.

• Delete This article certainly should be deleted, the term "Tweener" is a term commonly used to refer to those who are between childhood and adolescence, and is almost never used to describe those between Boomers and Xers. The only real basis for this mistaken claim is that there was one article (in USAToday) in 1996 using this term, but it never caught on at all. Claiming current common usage for a term because it was used once 12 years ago is laughable, and a slap in the face of Wikipedia. Its very rare usage in this context now certainly doesn not warrent a an article in this or any encyclopedia. There is a term which did catch on to describe those "between" the Boomers and Xers--Generation Jones, which is absolutely commonly used now. Of course the Generation Jones article covers this topic. Birth rates have nothing to do with generations. The only generation ever defined by birth rates was the original flawed defintion of the Baby Boom Generation. The reason that so many generational experts no longer use that orignial flawed definition of the Boomer generation was specifically because of this realization that demographic boom in births included two distinct generations. Generations are about formative experiences, not birth rates. This completely misinformed Tweener article should be deleted or re-directed to Generation Jones page. TreadingWater ( talk) 17:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Further, read original archive from USA TODAY - see link below and abstract.

Title: Stuck between generations Not boomers, not Xers, they are Tweeners [FINAL Edition] USA TODAY (pre-1997 Fulltext) - McLean, Va. Author: Andrea Stone Date: Mar 22, 1996 Start Page: 01.A Section: NEWS Text Word Count: 1333 Abstract (Document Summary)

Baby boomers were born from 1946 through 1964. But the spotlight has always seemed focused on older boomers, those 40 to 50 now. In the mid-'90s, they're starting to fret about retirement and aging. Tweeners, a few of whom even have parents who are boomers, just can't relate.

Despite such differences, the more than 20 million Tweeners aren't recognized as a separate generation. They are counted among the 75 million baby boomers. Yet many are closer in age to Generation Xers who were born from 1965 through 1976. But that designation doesn't feel right, either.

Like the oldest boomers, Tweeners ``are a transitional group, [Walker] Smith says. Those born in the late 1940s share a sense of duty and community with the G.I. generation. But, like other boomers, they also stress individuality. That combination of values leaves many older boomers torn about balancing family and career, even though their generation launched the women's movement. Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction or distribution is prohibited without permission

LINK for USA TODAY Archive for March 22, 1996: http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/access/16394756.html?dids=16394756:16394756&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Mar+22%2C+1996&author=Andrea+Stone&pub=USA+TODAY+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&edition=&startpage=01.A&desc=Stuck+between+generationsNot+boomers%2C+not+Xers%2C+they+are+Tweeners —Preceding unsigned comment added by Archiemartin ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

archiemartin Archie Martin ( talk) 17:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment - I've heard of the term "tweener" before but only as a marketing demographic, not as a generation. Jason Quinn ( talk) 22:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep and rename (maybe to Tweener (age group)). The article needs major cleanup, but I believe it meets inclusion requirements. The article contains material that deserve to be in its own article rather than the Preteen one, since this article can focus specifically on the term "tweener" as opposed to the group in general. The current name is not appropriate because, as Jason Quinn points out, tweeners are an age group, not a single generation—you can remain a "baby boomer" or a "gen-Xer" for your whole life, but you can only be a tweener for a couple years. I think the article needs to be cleaned up, renamed, and given a prominent link (either a hatnote, or a link in the first sentence, such as "Tweener is a term used to refer to children in the preadolescent stage of development]]" or whatever. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 17:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete Further, this article was written with bad faith and isn't even close to meeting Wikipedia's inclusion requirements. The article was written trying to claim that

1) this is a commonly used term for those between Boomers and Xers (truth: almost no one uses this term that way) 2) the term is used to describe those born 1964-1968 (truth: I couldn't find one such use ever anywhere on Google) 3) that this cohort is also called "Genex-Boomers" (truth: not one reference to Genex-Boomers anywhere ever on Google) In other words, this was written by someone who had his own unusual ideas about a use of a term that he'd like to see, so he writes a Wikipedia article pretending that the term is used that way, and fills it with clearly false information and claims. Bad faith. If you want to start using a term this way, go ahead and use it this way; for example, find a small blog who will repeat your views. But don't undermine the credibility of a great resource like Wikipedia with this nonsense. I resent people who exploit Wikipedia's open editing approach by trying to introduce a new usage of a term by pretending it already is used that way. The best answer to bad faith efforts like this is to delete such articles promptly. TreadingWater ( talk) 19:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Strong Delete per Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms and Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Transwiki to Wikitionary is acceptable. This only defines the word, but doesn't do much else. It is only a duplication of information in Preadolescence, and Tween is a disambiguation page that lists wikitionary. Not appropriate for Wikipedia. Ottava Rima ( talk) 04:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete. Not a commonly used term. Examining the article sources for "common usage"; one of the sources is from 1996, and of the two modern ones one is some guy's celebrity gossip blog. not a reliable source. It obviously hasn't caught on; back to the sociology drawing board, then. Ironholds ( talk) 04:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep and expand Tweeners They're Just Yuppies Who Live the Sensible Life. Los Angeles Times, 1988. The concept tweener has a history that should be included in Wikipedia. -- Jmundo ( talk) 06:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

  I'm sorry, but this is not for "tweener", this is for "tweener generation". Tweener has already been deemed as a neologism. And that is a different use of the term "tweener" than the current use, which would cause even more problems. Hence, Wiktionary allows for the organization of different definitions. Ottava Rima ( talk) 16:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Easy, rename to Tweener (age group). The article already talks about the different use of the term. The source talks about the term, not just use the term, per WP:NEO.-- Jmundo ( talk) 17:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• A few sources does not pass the criteria under WP:NEO, especially when there are already other terms (such as preadolescent). Ottava Rima ( talk) 17:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Merge/delete/whatever: this AfD is a mess. Prior to the start of this AfD, this article was about a purported generation between the baby boom generation and generation X, for which there are a few links (although as indicated above, the article Generation Jones would already seem substantially to cover that). Now the article is about an age group between childhood and adolescence. Of course, the new makeover is no longer about the "Tweener generation" which is the subject of this AfD. The current content should be merged to preadolescence, and the old content should (if sourcing supports this) be mentioned in Generation Jones. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 17:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment. I agree . . . the AfD was about a different article from the one that now exists. Someone who disagreed with the facts as presented on the initial page and came behind and edited it to suit his/her whims, but calling adolescents a "generation" seems odd to me. As it stands now, it seems it deserves a vote of delete as I don't see many sources for the initial claims. NoVomit ( talk) 12:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

What's wrong with editing the article? It seems that AfD initial claims are not longer valid, because the article is different.-- Jmundo ( talk) 16:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Nothing wrong with editing the article, except for the fact that this debate is now essentially about a different article than now exists. There seems little relationship between those born in the 1950s and a group of tweens. NoVomit ( talk) 00:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Indeed, now the article should be deleted because the topic it addresses doesn't match the topic of the article (Tweener Generation). The existing content, that sometimes someone of such an age is called a "tweener" can be merged to preadolescence. Otherwise the article is little more than a dicdef, and certainly is not notable (even amid the confusion of this particular AfD). siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 01:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. – Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 22:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Keats McFarland & Wilson

Keats McFarland & Wilson (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

The only reason that this firm would be notable is because they (supposedly) assisted Yahoo! in a clickfraud lawsuit. That wouldn't have been very notable for that anyway. But even further than that, the only reference(s) they had for that were a forum and a blog (and the blog said nothing of the firm). So, non-notability is the thing here. flaming lawye r ^c 16:36, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Delete no assertion of notability, nothing worth salvaging. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 17:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete Arguable notability even if the claims were true, but the sources don't even guarantee that. – Alex43223 ^{T | C | E} 08:44, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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Non-admin closure, the result was snowball keep. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 17:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Photomatix Pro

Photomatix Pro (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Software with no assertion of notability. PROD contested in June.  Sandstein  16:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete per notability concerns. flaming lawye r ^c 16:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Keep but seriously, if it's notable, say it is. It's very misleading when it doesn't. flaming lawye r ^c 00:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Strong keep I use it and it works. Software does not assert anything, the user base does. NVO ( talk) 16:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • It doesn't matter if it works; what matters is if it's notable (which, as pointed out by me and Sandstein, it isn't). flaming lawye r ^c 17:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
    • Leaving Sandstein aside, how would you know? What makes it non-notable while PTgui Pro apparently is? Isn't it time to delete CS4 as well, as it is still cannot beat specialized tools in HDR? NVO ( talk) 17:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• That's not the kind of argument suitable for a deletion discussion; see WP:WAX.  Sandstein  17:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep. Although the article does not say so, this software does meet our minimum notability requirements. Your pick. -- Blanchardb - ^{Me• MyEars• MyMouth}- timed 19:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Search results are not reliable sources. Which coverage, specifically, makes this software notable as defined in WP:N?  Sandstein  08:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Keep, but rework. Article fails notability requirement, software really doesn't. Jo7hs2 ( talk) 00:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep and improve. The software is notable. Reviews in 3rd party publications: macuser.com, PC World, Macworld. -- George100 ( talk) 13:07, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Closing per obvious consensus. — Aitias //  discussion 17:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Lucy Allan

Lucy Allan (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

No assertion of notability, no mention of anything other than role as as producer of a single show, and no mention of what she has done in that role. No sources (I found this and this which mention her a tiny bit, and might help, although I still don't believe those sources are enough to assuage notability concerns). — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 15:36, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete Not notable. There is only one item of information in the article. I wish that people would not start articles that say, "Such and such person holds such and such job." Northwestgnome ( talk) 15:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete No assertion of notability. A Gsearch didn't turn up any sources supporting notability.   LinguistAt Large  16:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete--No sources to establish notability or mention of her accomplishments. -- Jmundo ( talk) 19:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Delete blatantly non notable. JBsupreme ( talk) 00:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. – Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 22:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Phptransformer

Phptransformer (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

With the official site being in Arabic and no references to English-language sources it seems this may not meet notability requirements, at least among English Wikipedia's audience. No assertion of notability. —Largo Plazo ( talk) 15:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete or merge (to whatever "list of extensions," or something like that, would would be appropriate); agree that notability has not established, found very few non-Wikipedia hits on Google. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 15:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete. I can find no evidence that this is a notable Content management system.   LinguistAt Large  16:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 03:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

List of Taichung bus routes

List of Taichung bus routes (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

This page has lingered for six months at WP:PNT's cleanup section. It is nothing but a list of bus routes in a suburb of Taipei, and probably not up-to-date either. Delete.  Blanchardb - ^{Me• MyEars• MyMouth}- timed 15:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete; I was going to suggest condense and then merge into Taichung bus, but that article is already so terrible (clearly just a lazy, bad translation of zh:台中市公车) that I doubt that would help anything either. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 15:52, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete Article serves no purpose. Out of date list of bus routes. Enigma ^message 17:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Comment Taichung is not a suburb of Taipei, but a city of 1 million+ in the center of Taiwan. John Z ( talk) 21:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete listcruft, like list of bus routes in Baltimore but with funny boxes. Scaldi ( talk) 22:10, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Strong keep. Can't see anything wrong here. Translation from a foreign language too. Out of date lists are called history, not deletion. -- Balloholic ( talk) 01:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • But is it notable history? — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 04:49, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Trusilver 02:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep. Describes an important part of a major city's infrastructure. If we can have 400 articles about individual London bus routes (and that's not a WP:WAX argument, because some of these articles have been kept at AfD), then why not one about all of Taichung's routes? Phil Bridger ( talk) 17:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment. It sounded to me a whole lot like you just claimed you weren't giving an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument right before you gave an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument. Trusilver 01:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete per WP:INDISCRIMINATE - Snappy ( talk) 01:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was merge to List of characters in The Nightmare Before Christmas. MBisanz ^talk 02:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Lock, Shock, and Barrel

Lock, Shock, and Barrel (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Non-notable characters from The Nightmare Before Christmas. A basic Google search [8] for "Lock, Shock, and Barrel" mostly just returns things like fan artwork, fan fiction, merchandise, and plot summaries of TNBC. A Google News search [9] returns only two results, both of which contain only trivial mentions of these characters. A Google Books search [10] returns only trivial mentions in larger works, mostly on subject such as TNBC and Tim Burton. As such, no reliable, published sources have been found, and this article fails the general Notability guideline, as well as the proposed Notability guideline for fiction. Unscented ( talk) 14:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Merge to List of characters in The Nightmare Before Christmas, and do major cleanup and condensing. I think the question mostly hingest on the fact that they appeared in the Kingdom Hearts video game, and whether or not that makes them more deserving of their own article; but after looking at that section in this article and seeing that it's mostly useless plot summary, I think the whole thing could be condensed to a single sentence (along the lines of "they have also appeared in the Kingdom Hearts video game series" or whatever) at the end of the usual description they would get in the List of... article. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 15:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete. I am glad that they are only fictional! This article shows some of the problems with articles about fictional creations. The author, although a good writer, has watched a cartoon movie and projected human characteristics on the made-up characters. A lot of WP:Original research in other words. Northwestgnome ( talk) 15:58, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with Northwestgnome's comments about the article's problems; I have modified my "merge" vote to express that the article also needs a lot of cleanup, and shouldn't just be copy-and-pasted into the list. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 16:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Merge with the list of characters, per notability. flaming lawye r ^c 16:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Merge, and this shouldn't have been brought here. (That is, merge, with preservation of a reasonable mount of the content.) This is a single show, and the material will fir just fine in the main article. DGG ( talk) 02:11, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Merge as the character do seem notable for the sake of the film, but not notable enough to have their own article. – Dream out loud ( talk) 18:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Closing per obvious consensus. — Aitias //  discussion 17:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Einar Riis

Einar Riis (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Unsourced, Google doesn't unearth anything and the article is slanted and clearly there to promote a particular position. Since this doesn't appear to have generated any press coverage this clearly isn't notable. Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete I can't even tell what the article is trying to say. If someone can do the needed cleanup quickly then I might change my mind (as far as I can tell, it's impossible to even start thinking about the subject's notability and stuff until the article is put into a legible and comprehensible form) but otherwise I would agree with nom. — Politizer  ^talk/ _contribs 15:58, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete I will take nom's word that Google hits do not exist. Then the article is probably a hoax. If this person were real he would seem to be notable by what the article says. Northwestgnome ( talk) 16:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete as a hoax or simply as a non-notable person. After some digging in Google, I couldn't find anything that wasn't derived from this Wikipedia article.   LinguistAt Large  16:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Closing per obvious consensus. — Aitias //  discussion 17:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Shannon Mirels

Shannon Mirels (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Possible hoax / exaggerated article. I am unable to verify claims of playing for Australian national and domestic soccer teams. This link (a school newsletter) indicates he maybe a school-boy player representing in age group competition, but that's all I can find. THEN WHO WAS PHONE? ( talk) 13:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• comment I too was unable to easily find any supportive info for this article. I have done a basic re-write removing the worst of it.-- Alf ^melmac 13:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete Cannot find anything to say she was a national player -- Lawe ( talk) 14:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete suspected hoax, certainly not notable. Doesn't appear in Australian players database, doesn't appear in rsssf, FIFA, any of the club wbsites. Google search on "Shannon Mirels" only gives wiki scrapes, a facebook page and the newletter mentioned above.--ClubOranje ^Talk 22:37, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete, smells hoaxy, if it's true, it would appear to be unverifiable at the present time. Lankiveil ^{( speak to me)} 04:41, 27 December 2008 (UTC). reply
• Comment: An editor, who had previously added a large amount of text to the article here, has removed most of the apparently unverifiable claims in this edit. I don't feel the need to restore it given the circumstances. THEN WHO WAS PHONE? ( talk) 06:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete I was thinking what the heck, a member of the Australian football team must be notable surely (and I'm a deletionist!)? Except that Shannon Mirels obviously isn't a member of the Australia football team since else there would be more information. Particularly for one who joined the team at the age of 17 (and joined the Orlando Pirates at age 14) Nil Einne ( talk) 14:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete per nom. Giant Snowman 16:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was speedy keep. nominator withdrawn. Issues can be addressed by editing. Mgm| ^(talk) 19:07, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Pope Pius XII: Illness and death

Pope Pius XII: Illness and death (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Initial proposal for deletion removed and denoted an "objection." Reasons for initial proposal were given as: "The subject of any notable person's "illness and death" should be covered in a biographical article on the person. If there is something significant about the illness and death of a public figure-- significant enough that it merits extended discussion on its own (e.g., the Kennedy assassination), then that should be made clear. Otherwise, a separate page is unwarranted." Objector states that the article is fine because "its cited and there are many others like it." These are not sufficient conditions to warrant addition of this article. The objector also jumped straight to removing the proposal for deletion, for which reasons were given, to removing the tag without providing an adequate response. Jlg4104 ( talk) 12:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete Even if the author has stated that there are many other articles like this, this level of detail about the last days of any historical figure is unnecessary. Pope Pius XII was over 80 years old when he passed away and there seems to be no controversy over his death from natural causes. There are numerous, readily accessible biographies of him [11], any of which can be linked, that deal with this aspect of his life. Mandsford ( talk) 14:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep This is an appropriate daughter article, created to include well-referenced information that would otherwise create undo emphasis in the main article given article size targets. I might suggest that the illness and death of a religious figure is slightly more notable than most; for example, the manner of death of a pope may implicate his cause for canonization and the following papal conclave. As the objector, I removed the template because prod should not be used for contested deletions, which this is. Savidan 21:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Strong Keep I do not buy the "this level of detail about the last days of any historical figure is unnecessary" argument. What prompts the deletion of facts here? Lack of disk space on Wikipedia servers? Many talk pages on Wikipedia take more space than this article and if one were to refer to books in libraries, what is the use of "online" material. Hence I do not agree with the unnecessary assessment at all. No one is forcing anyone to read this link, but as a matter of historical fact, it enriches Wikipedia. In fact, given the combination of the rare photo and the detailed facts, this is the type of article that elevates Wikipedia to the level of a serious encyclopedia. I think Britannica etc. simply do not have this level of depth of information within them. But, this article should not be merged into the Pius XII article itself because that article is already pretty large. So this article should stay, i.e. let it be. Thanks. History2007 ( talk) 22:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I'm more concerned about the precedent that it sets for other persons who wish to venerate their heroes by writing articles the person's illnesses. I suppose one could write an article about the final brave days of Gerald Ford or Mother Teresa or Mickey Mantle, but to what end? Mandsford ( talk) 00:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I would be very interested in reading about the final days of Mother Teresa. If you know someone who can write it, please suggest it. That is the strength of online, hyper-text info: someone will find it interesting and it does not get in the way by getting the physical encyclopedia too heavy to carry around. History2007 ( talk) 00:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep The main article, despite numerous other sub-articles, is extremely long, and this seems an appropriate sub-article per the policy; the nom does not address the length issue. That the nominator thinks there is something wrong with the removal of the prod suggests he may not be too familiar with policy & procedure in this area. Johnbod ( talk) 23:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep Yes, I am new. I'm the nominator but am now persuaded by the "keep" arguments above. The article in question is problematic, in my view, probably more because it seems like an overly-detailed story that suffers from an informal style. But that was already addressed. I do see the point of the one "delete" argument above, and to some extent agree with it. But ultimately, I think it's probably better to let things improve rather than go around recommending deletions without very good reason. My Wikipedia philosophy is only just developing as I read through the "About" docs, and at the moment I see no need to hold my ground. Jlg4104 ( talk) 04:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

And that sounds like "nomination withdrawn". Looks like I need to move along-- I see a snowball rolling down the hill toward me! :) Mandsford ( talk) 13:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

No worries, it is not a snowball moving towards you, it is just a friendly discussion about improving a page. And all participants wn or lose nothing, so no big deal. But I suggest that we declare this issue closed. Cheers History2007 ( talk) 14:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Closing per obvious consensus. — Aitias //  discussion 02:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Summary deletion

Summary deletion (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Unreferenced dictionary definition full of original research. Reason given for contesting prod was: "It's Christmas Day". Songs of ts steiner ( talk) 22:14, 25 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete as WP:OR. Could not find any useful source. Salih (talk) 12:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete per nominator. I found that the page author added this to his user page on 13 November, only three days before he created the article: "If you enjoy summarily deleting or wholesale editing my input, it will only take you a moment longer but why not let me know your motivation? It may have taken me a lot longer to write it.". [12] I wonder if he has had another page deleted and was just expressing his disappointment? Maybe userfy as a courtesy if this is meant to be a personal essay? Llamasharmafarmerdrama ( talk) 14:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete or Userfy Sounds a lot like the author had an article deleted and is writing this in frustration. The tying of "summary deletion" to censorship by dictatorships is clever, but does not make the article any more valuable to the encyclopedia. This page is a candidate for summary deletion. I also suggest invoking the snowball clause as this article stands no chance of surviving this AFD. Theseeker4 ( talk) 14:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete Not an article at all. Just a rant whose author will probably cool down soon and hopefully make constructive contributions to WP. Northwestgnome ( talk) 16:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete — clearly an axe being ground. – Kieran T ^{( talk)} 19:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete per kierant. This is an attempt to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point (see Special:Contributions/Redashhope, even though I cannot view deleted contribs; the user is clearly miffed that a recent article he created was deleted). Please take your axe to the hardware store for grinding — not here. MuZemike ( talk) 19:37, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Closing per obvious consensus. — Aitias //  discussion 17:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

HUNGRY KIDS OF HUNGARY

HUNGRY KIDS OF HUNGARY (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

NN band: Unsourced, limited google depth. Oliver Twisted ^(Talk) (Stuff) 10:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete Non-notable Myspace band. Lugnuts ( talk) 11:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete - nothing to establish notability. Cordless Larry ( talk) 11:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Well, one recent mention in a newspaper. WP:MUSIC requires multiple mentions. Cordless Larry ( talk) 12:02, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
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• Delete - even the bands they've "shared the stage with" are mostly non-notable. Deb ( talk) 14:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was no consensus. — Aitias //  discussion 05:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Y2J

Y2J (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

The band has won a singing competition and has signed up for a music label. It does not meet the notiability guidelines -- Lawe ( talk) 10:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Along with the deletion of this page are articles for the two singers Jane Huang and Yuming Lai. The notibility of these band members is limited to being in this musical act which does not meet the notibility guidelines. Therefore I am also nominating the following related pages because they refer to the members of this act:

Jane Huang (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Yuming Lai (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Delete -- Lawe ( talk) 10:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Restore redirect to Chris Jericho as one of his nicknames, as it had been done before determined editors hijacked it to this unnotable act. Nate • ( chatter) 10:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Restore redirect and delete hijack edits, per Nate. Lugnuts ( talk) 11:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Restore redirect for now until the group releases its second album. WP:MUSIC does state that notability is established iff an artist "has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable)." Universal Music is, of course, notable, so if and only if the group releases a second album, the article can be re-created. Pandacomics ( talk) 16:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• That's just one of the criteria. There are at least 10 others it could meet to qualify. - Mgm| ^(talk) 19:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep. Meets WP:MUSIC number 9: "Has won or placed in a major music competition." - Mgm| ^(talk) 19:02, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Well, Yuming was the only one who won, so going by that guideline, only he would fit notability standards. Jane Huang, who placed seventh, would not. To say placing seventh counts as "placing" by those guidelines is too much of a stretch. Pandacomics ( talk) 20:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Keep, they have appeared in multiple independent news stories, although most of them are rather lighthearted (the guy needs to lose weight or they got wet filming a video). A couple of relatively sensible ones: This one [13] is about the hidden tracks on their album being taken for a flaw in the CD. This one [14] is about them participating in an international song contest in the PRC. Juzhong ( talk) 13:50, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • I should clarify my feelings: merge Jane Huang into Y2J, optionally merge Yuming Lai as well (I can't be bothered to look for independent notability for either of them). Juzhong ( talk) 05:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep. If Yuming Lai passes WP:MUSIC criterion 9, then Y2J passes criterion 6. Wikilawyering apart, it seems that Juzhong has found enough sources to get them through the general notability guideline anyway. Phil Bridger ( talk) 17:51, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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Sucker punch

The result was keep per WP:KEEP / WP:SNOW. ( WP:NAC) flaming lawye r ^c 22:49, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Sucker punch (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

WP:NOTDICDEF, fails WP:RS GateKeeper^{( X)} @ 08:04, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Keep I have rewritten this as a stub per fixing bad stubs. Colonel Warden ( talk) 12:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• delete weak keep - How can such an article even be expanded in an encyclopedic way? There doesn't appear to be much more to say besides the definition, therefore the article fails [[WP:NOTDICDEF]. I suppose you could list examples of sucker punches but that is not worthwhile content. I don't think there are any medical statistics regarding injuries from sucker punches and even if there were, I still don't think it would justify an article. Jason Quinn ( talk) 15:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Perhaps you read the article before Colonel Warden's complete rewrite and addition of reliable sources?   LinguistAt Large  16:58, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I only now saw the update. It's better but still a border line call, in my opinion. The street fighting section I guess is worthwhile. I will change my vote to weak keep. Jason Quinn ( talk) 17:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Strong Keep This has the potential to be developed into a full article as clearly shown by Colonel Warden.   LinguistAt Large  16:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep or merge into other places. Scaldi ( talk) 22:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep By saying keep, I am sucker punching the nom in a snowball! (Erm, yeah, what Major Guard or whatever his name is said) Thanks!-- Cerejota ( talk) 13:15, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Make sure there is not a rock in that snowball :) MuZemike ( talk) 17:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. – Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 22:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Ivan Hrvatska

Ivan Hrvatska (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Singer with very little notability; ghits point mainly to blogs/MySpace/social networking sites. Gnews has one mention in a listing of performances. Doesn't seem to pass WP:ENTERTAINER. Delete Mr. Vernon ( talk) 07:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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• Comment – I'm not the original author, but I've added a couple of references just now, including a feature piece about this comic singer in The Vancouver Sun. I've heard his songs on CBC Radio 3 from time to time. Paul Erik ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep per Paul Erik and evidence of notability. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 08:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Further improvement wouldn't hurt, but keep per Paul Erik's reference improvements. I can also vouch for having heard him on R3 — he makes my ears and brain hurt, so I usually flip the channel when he comes on, but he's on their playlist nonetheless. Bearcat ( talk) 14:01, 29 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Stifle ( talk) 09:38, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Class of '05 problem

Class of '05 problem (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Non-notable problem. At most, deserves 2-3 lines of text in Iraqi insurgency. DonaldDuck ( talk) 07:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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Endorse. Delete/Merge. Buckshot06( prof) 17:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete per nom. Nick-D ( talk) 22:05, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Aitias //  discussion 00:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete. This is nothing more than a thesis from an article in a journal of opinion. Why should I delete thee? Let me count the ways. Un sch ool 06:38, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was speedy delete as G4 - word for word recreation of previous article deleted at AFD under a different capitalisation. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christopher Gutierrez (2nd nomination) Nancy ^talk 07:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Christopher gutierrez

Christopher gutierrez (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Author, but nothing he's published appears on Amazon, except for one book which is listed as self-published [15]; written like a long PR blurb, not a biographical article. Delete Mr. Vernon ( talk) 07:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Speedy delete (as I originally nominated). Article is mainly a promotional piece, likely written by the subject or someone working for him. References are all sites under his direct control. Nothing to indicate notability by Wikipedia standards. - Realkyhick ( Talk to me) 07:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete as failing WP:CREATIVE. Would appear to be a self-published author with no wider notability outside his small fanbase. Nancy ^talk 07:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

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The result was no consensus. MBisanz ^talk 03:19, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

SimSig

SimSig (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ( delete) – ( View AfD)

Non-notable website/software/forum. All sources are to the website. Little Red Riding Hood talk 06:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

As stated below, the above assertion is untrue. Jezhotwells ( talk) 03:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Er, where? Little Red Riding Hood talk 03:05, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

1 "WineHQ - SimSig 2.103". Wine HQ. http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=7495. Retrieved on 2008-12-26.

2 a b c "Dazrah's SimSig page". britishrailwaysboard.co.uk. http://britishrailwaysboard.co.uk/simsig/. Retrieved on 2008-12-26.

3 Raymond Keattch (18 April 2007). "SimSig Training". http://www.drivershed.com/UK-Drivers.s13.html. (Web link). Retrieved on 27 December 2008.

4 RSN Associates and Risk Solutions (February 2003), "Rail education framework for secondary schools (S1 – S2) in Scotland - Guidance for Teachers" (PDF), Development of rail safety material for teachers and schools, RSSB, pp. 103 http://www.rssb.co.uk/pdf/reports/Research/Development%20of%20rail%20safety%20material%20for%20teachers%20and%20schools.pdf

5 Marshall, Alan (September, 2006). "Dipping a toe into Signalling" (PDF). North London Society of Model Engineers Newsletter (London: NLSME) (673): 21. http://www.nlsme.co.uk/Newsletters/NLSME-September-2006.pdf. Retrieved on 27 December 2008.

6 "Signalling Simulations". District Dave. http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/signalling_simulations.html. Retrieved on 2008-12-27.

7 "Sundry Strategy Titles". TRANSPORT SIMULATION UK. http://www.transportsim.co.uk/sundrystrat.html. Retrieved on 2008-12-27.

8 "The Language of Electronics - Dictionary and Research Guide". 123Explore!. http://www.123exp-technology.com/t/03881298238/. Retrieved on 2008-12-27.

9 "SimSig". Clive Feather. http://www.davros.org/rail/simsig/. Retrieved on 2008-12-26.

I have removed those referring to the SimSig website or forum. I request that fallacious and untrue assertions are removed from this debate. Jezhotwells ( talk) 03:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• • I have not yet reviewed those links (I will, but probably later), but at the time that I placed this AfD, they were not in the article. I will not remove any such assertion, as it was true at the time, and may be yet, though I don't know yet as I have not read the links. Little Red Riding Hood talk 03:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Oppose - Keep this article Actually the external links: SimSig; The Railway Engineering Company, the suppliers of TRESIM; SimSig at www.train-sim.com; SimSig at WineHQ; SimSig at carmont.com; SimSig at trainweb.org; SimSig at britishrailwaysboard.co.uk = show mentions at five other websites not associated with the software maker, so the above assertion is not true. The article has been neutralized and expanded. The software is notable as it is the only realistic simulation of UK railway signalling available. I oppose this recommendation for deletion. Jezhotwells ( talk) 10:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 08:59, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep per Jezhotwells. Passes WP:CORP. Tevildo ( talk) 13:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep. SimSig itself is most definitely notable - you only have to read the article to see that. Jezhotwells' comment above also says much the same as I would about the notability of the subject. -- Ciaran H ( talk) 19:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep I do not believe this article should be deleted. I have some concerns that part of it could be see as an advert but this should be discussed on the talk page. ZoeL ( talk) 19:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete — notability not established. Forum postings and links to websites are not considered reliable (secondary) sources. Nor could I find any such significant coverage thereof in a cursory Google search (no hits in gNews). MuZemike ( talk) 20:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

A cursory seacrh of Google or Google News produces no hits for Zombie Nation (video game), so I don't really see that as a revelant argument. Jezhotwells ( talk) 22:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Please refrain from stalking on my contributions. Thank you, MuZemike ( talk) 23:10, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Just because other crap exists doesn't mean an article should be kept. So MuZemike's argument has relevance. Unusual? Quite ^TalkQu 23:17, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Comment—I've cleaned up the article to try to see what's going on. The nominator is correct that the sources used in the article do not prove notability. Please note that in Wikipedia, the "External links" section of the article by definition contains links that were not used as sources for the article. If some of those links will help to establish notability, please work them into the article as sources. The text of the article makes it sound like this might be notable, so I'm not saying keep or delete at the moment. I'll willing to give the authors some time to convince me that this product is notable by providing reliable secondary sources. Pagra shtak 20:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I think some of your concerns have been addressed. I would welcome input on the talk page. Jezhotwells ( talk) 21:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Your new sources have raised additional concerns. I've listed some on the talk page. Pagra shtak 21:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I hope that I have answered them adeqautely there. Jezhotwells ( talk) 22:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Delete—I have to switch to delete after the discussion at the article talk page. While the article sounds like it holds the promise for notability, the sources turned up so far are personal websites, self-published material, and forum posts. It appears that we simply don't have the reliable secondary sources needed to construct an article here. If SimSig grows in popularity and begins receiving coverage in reliable secondary sources, this article can be undeleted or recreated. There may be other wikis for which this article is suitable. If so, this article can be transwikied. Pagra shtak 17:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep - I cannot believe that this article has been marked for deletion. As far as I can see there is nothing wrong with it, the links are all correct, maybe the wording maybe slightly wrong, but that can easily be changed, the pictures are accurate as well as picture descriptions, the simulations and website are made by Geoff Mayo. I say KEEP. manadude2 ( talk) 21:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
  • The problem is that Wikipedia has a notability guideline, and the nominator has a concern that SimSig does not meet it. It has nothing to do with incorrect links or wording, but the subject matter itself. Pagra shtak 21:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Keep - This is a notable simulation of UK railway signalling. I agree, however, that it would be helpful if better references can be found. Dtaylor1984 ( talk) 23:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Delete. It may be a notable simulation of signaling, but it doesn't meet the overall WP:N guideline for Wikipedia notability. As can be seen from the, presumably, best references (i.e., those listed in the article) all the references are to personal pages and forums which are not reliable sources. I can't find anything else that is more reliable. Personally I feel it is time to look again at the standards for web sites, shareware and freeware because they are very rarely WP notable even when they are widely known in the on-line community. But an AfD isn't the place to discuss that. Unusual? Quite ^TalkQu 23:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. -- MuZemike ( talk) 00:01, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. -- MuZemike ( talk) 00:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply
• Comment. The program is _notable_ because it was an amateur piece of freeware that was adopted by Railtrack to train their signalmen with, because they didn't have a simulator. If it fails WP:N, it's _solely_ because WP:RS is fifteen - nay, twenty - years behind the times. However, I agree that one AfD isn't the right place for this debate; if this article _is_ deleted, though, it might provide an incentive to change our policies... Tevildo ( talk) 04:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

  Or it might goad people who claim that it's notable to provide reliable sources, which so far do not exist. Little Red Riding Hood talk 05:17, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comment.

reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. How reliable a source is depends on context.

This is the nub of it. In relation to the page for a quite well known video game SimCity in fact there are no working links in the references that are not fan sites or forums. This is likely as the original game is long out of production and is supported by a volunteer user community. The end implication of this is that only articles about commercial software produced by companies who can buy advertising space in major magazines and periodicals will ever have pages in Wikipedia. The key words in the quote above are How reliable a source is depends on context. Do a thousand comments made on volunteer fan sites and user forums equal one paragraph in a newspaper of repute? Jezhotwells ( talk) 14:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Discussion of SimCity has no bearing on the discussion of this article, however [16] seems like a reliable source that isn't a fan site or a user forum. It could be argued that [17] is also reliable. As is this. Little Red Riding Hood talk 06:01, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Just trying to establish what is meant by reliable sources - two of the three examples quoted by you are in fact references to later versions of the game and the NY Times article disappered off screen after a moment as I am not a registered user of that site. Jezhotwells ( talk) 22:05, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply