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Hi all,
as part of a discussion at Talk:Augmentative_and_alternative_communication#Rate_enhancement_strategies we're having a reliable sources question (and we probably want high value sources because we're also discussing an FA nomination).
Central question is - are the proceedings of a peer-reviewed conference article (computer science conference) a reliable source? and there's a broader supplemental question which would be - in the field of computer science is there an unusual number of prestigious conferences compared to other fields, and does this affect the relative weight of conferences and journals. The added text specific to the discussion is [1]
Thank you in advance,
Failedwizard ( talk) 07:43, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Tucker454 is unable to see that what he has written on the page under the section "Police scandal" are his opinions and not FACTS that he can attribute to reliable (or any) sources. The comments are libelous.
I have deleted the section three times now. I have asked him to provide attributions. He does not understand what an attribution is.
Perhaps someone else is willing to take a shot at it.
Are Wrestleview.com or LordsofPain.net reliable sources regarding wrestlers? Could they be used for WP:BLP information about them? Jayjg (talk) 00:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Just wondering if there is a guideline regarding the use of fan sites to source information in articles. I am currently reviewing an article ( Talk:Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things/GA1#Reference details) for good status that uses information from fan sites. One source is an interview conducted by the fan site of the writer of a TV series, while another is a FAQ detailing among other things the locations used during filming. I feel that the interview may be alright and the locations not. There is another reference to Suvudu, which I feel could be used, but am not completely sure of. Thanks in advance. AIRcorn (talk) 02:52, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Is the book written by this 19th century gentleman considered primary or secondary source in the field of history? Do you consider it reliable by itself in that field? Kazemita1 ( talk) 05:10, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
"Die Araber stürmten sogleich auf alle Bücher los, nach ihrer Ansicht nur überflüssige oder schädliche Schreibereien; sie zerstörten alle Denkmale der Literatur, so dass kaum die geringsten Bruchstücke zu uns gelangen konnten. Die sogleich eingeführte arabische Sprache verhinderte jede Wiederherstellung dessen, was nationell heißen konnte."
You see, it is not only a collection of poetry. It has a quite magnificent "Notes and Clarifications" section which is the fruit of years of studying Persian history and literature by Goethe.
--
94.182.109.155 (
talk) 18:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter, whether this particular piece of text stems from essay or poetry by Goethe in neither case it is an acceptable source for historic statements. Even if Goethe were an eminent historic scholar of his time (which he was not), his 200 year old claim would not be considered a reliable source.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 20:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
The Parity section of the WP:FRINGE guidelines is a favorite of fringe apologists, who interpret it as carte blanche to use just about any sourcing they please to support OR and SYNTH in articles on fringe topics. It is also misused to present a fringe topic from the in-universe persepective fringe topic in articles on the topic.
I've started a discussion of the talk page of the WP:FRINGE guidelines. This isn't a formal RfC, but a request for open-ended input on the question whether the Parity section needs to be re-worded for clarity. To keep the discussion centralized, please comment on the talk page of the article, here: [ [5]]. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 20:27, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I was looking at the article about Ellie Nesler. There are some factual errors I would like to correct. I have in my personal/professional archives a rather complete set of the actual Court documents. I testified in the matter as an expert. Most of these materials became public during the trial. They are not published anywhere (this was before the www). Is it ok to cite a personal collection or professional archive as a source? There are news accounts, but many are themselves inaccurate ... it was complicated. The primary correction I want to make has to do with the trial outcome and the decision on appeal. Pgm8693 ( talk) 21:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Nesler "fired five shots into Driver's head", that's sourceable to the MSNBC article, but if it weren't sourceable, the simple solution would be to remove it, since anything not sourced is fair game for deletion. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 11:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
In general, Wikipedia discourages links to primary sources such as court documents. WP:BLP states that they should not be used in any biography of a living person specifying in clear language: Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Cheers - find secondary sources for sure. Collect ( talk) 21:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Hey Thanks! to everybody who discussed this. It was useful and interesting, and I think History2007 nailed the answer in the first response: If you let me cite some old Court documents, I'm going to want to reference the letter J. Edgar Hoover sent me about the Occupy Wall Street movement's connection to Occupy Sesame Street agitators. What I realized is that I should just raise the issues on the talk page and see if someone wants to source it. Or I can wait until I have time myself. -- Pgm8693 ( talk) 18:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Done -- Senra ( Talk) 20:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Is the Letters, Samantha (2010) Online Gazetteer of Markets in England and Wales to 1516 a reliable source (as I suspect it is)? This Centre for Metropolitan History web site is linked to by the National Archives in the Markets and Fairs section -- Senra ( Talk) 19:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I mean reliable for a statement such as " Ely has had a market since at least 1224 and fairs were granted from as early as 1189" -- Senra ( Talk) 19:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I have purchased software that I'm trying to re download to a new computer. My code key won't register. I lost all software with the exception of email confirmation. -- 74.175.98.99 ( talk) 20:09, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I have two questions:
Hopefully I explained sufficiently. If not, the discussion thread is here, and the diff in question is here. Thanks. -- Airborne84 ( talk) 18:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I started a discussion in Talk about linking to RSN in citations, for sources which have been challenged and passed by RSN. Discuss there, please. -- Lexein ( talk) 20:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Under dispute is this sentence:
"Although accepted by the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses, a minority does not endorse this doctrine. [ref:] Lee Elder, The Associated Jehovah's Witnesses for Reform on Blood, "Why some Jehovah's Witnesses accept blood and conscientiously reject official Watchtower Society blood policy", Journal of Medical Ethics, 2000, Vol 26, pages 375-380.[/ref]"
At the article's talk page, one side claims that "The source is a peer-reviewed medical journal, which meets Wikipedia standards as a reliable source." The other says that "it was simply an article written by one such person with no proof this minority is in any way significant." Does that article meet WP:RS for that statement? StandFirm ( talk) 23:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
This book: Dempsey, Daniel V, A Tradition of Excellence - Canada's Airshow Team Heritage, High Flight Enterprises, Victoria, BC, 2007, ISBN 978-0-9687817-1-5 is used as an extensive ref in a number of Wikipedia articles, including:
At first glance the book looks reliable. It is over 750 pages long and has over 1800 photos and obviously took a lot of work to compile as it weighs about 20 lbs, being printed on clay paper in full colour. The author was a two-tour pilot with the Snowbirds and former Commanding Officer of the team, so obviously has expertise in the field. However the author is also the publisher and the president of the publishing company, High Flight Enterprises. High Flight's business address is 1174 Sloan Terrace, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, which is a residential address listed to DV and RH Dempsey. The listed editorial staff consists of Vic Johnson, an air force colleague of the author and Ruth Dempsey, the author's spouse. Clearly this work is WP:SPS. The author does not have other non-SPS works in print that I am aware of (but I am pleased to be corrected if this is not right) and so misses WP:USERGENERATED "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". Of further concern, while the massive book does provide a very detailed history of just about every Canadian military flying team throughout history, it is very promotional in tone, has a list of acknowledged people, but no footnotes for sources, minimizes accidents and controversies and, most critically, finishes with a titular chapter that is a clear lobbying effort by the author to convince the public and government decision makers to not disband the Snowbirds and instead procure BAe Hawks for the team, even going so far as to provide paintings of how Hawks would look in Snowbirds livery.
The book contains ringing jacket endorsements from such people as Christopher Terry, President and CEO of the Canadian Science and Technology Museums Corporation, James Boutilier, Professor of Military History and a forward by Fred Sutherland, LGEN (retired), former head of Canada's Air Force and Honorary Colonel of the Snowbirds.
Overall, while this is a very large, and obviously passionately-written book, I am not at all convinced that it meets WP:RS and especially WP:SPS, but I would like to gather some learned opinions here. - Ahunt ( talk) 16:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Without going into the "back story" of this book and intimating personal knowledge, it was originally intended to be published as an authoritative and heavily researched/cited historical work but the economics of the book publishing industry gravitated against this approach in the period in which the manuscript was being created. Other massive failures of the coffee table weight "desk reference" books were testament to a very bleak outlook for the work. With no publishing house behind the book, and with a reluctance to pare it down for a more popular audience in order to find a sympathetic publisher, the heady decision to go into a self-publishing venture was the result. The effort to provide a substantive work met head-on with the economics of producing a massive tone and finding any receptive market/audience. Despite some of the concerns mentioned above, the research that was done was consistent with that of any authoritative work, the author having access to source material that was both unique and reliable. I consider A Tradition of Excellence as a valuable resource and have found it accurate in the limited field in which I work, as all statements that were scrutinized, after comparison, were found to be verifiable. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 17:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC).
The author is also Team Historian for Hawk One and in that position, has been published in various aviation trade journals including AviNation as well as more popular aviation-themed magazines. For example, I have this electronic source: < http://history.aviation.ca/content/view/475/75/> . FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 17:54, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
All good points. I think we have to go back to the intent of not using SPS's. As I see it, the main rationale is meant to minimize problems associated with information accuracy, deception, and POV. Definitely there is a POV issue as you describe (the "lobbying" toward the end of the book), but in general, I would say the book is accurate in the information that's presented, and does not deceive. No doubt there is information left out, such as several accidents, but I don't think this minimizing was intentional. Major crashes are indeed described, however. Most of the book consists of first-hand accounts related by former team members - Dempsey compiled the information - and they seem to remember what they feel is relevant and important to them. Dempsey does not fill in the information gaps except for the historical context (mostly at the beginning of the book). If he did, this tome would not be able to be lifted. Much of the information included in the book is not available elsewhere, and I have to hand it to Dan for the work that he did do. Yes, it has shortcomings, but what book doesn't. Indeed no sources are given except for a long list of acknowledgements, but very few books do, unless they are of a "scholarly" nature. Another point is that, although it is self-published, it is of a quality that it could easily have been published elsewhere. No doubt if the book was published by a publisher other than High Flight Enterprises, it would probably have cut back on the POV issue, but all-in-all I think it is close to a quality that could have been published by a third-party publisher.
So, my opinion is that, yes it is a SPS, but we have to look beyond WP:SPS and look at the intent of the book. It was not written to deceive; it was written to inform and educate, and indeed, most of the book is a compilation of memories provided by others rather than Dempsey himself.
There are lots of authors who are "established experts" who have not previously had their work published by "reliable third-party publications". Should they be penalized?
Just some food for thought.- BC talk to me 19:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Regardless of whether it is "official" history or not of Canada's air demonstration teams, the book remains a very valuable resource and is unmatched by any other resource available. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 00:41, 12 November 2011 (UTC).
Since this material was found originally on the High Flight Enterprises website and no longer exists, all I have is an archival copy of the 2002 reviews and testimonials that accompany the release of the first edition and a fraction of the same for the revised 2007 edition. In perusing the statements, you will note that many were published in other sources such as newspapers, media outlets and websites which I have highlighted. Nonetheless, here is the translated document:
This is the text from the site that provides a number of testimonials regarding the book: A Tradition of Excellence ..."'
Book Reviews & Testimonials A Tradition of Excellence - Canada's Airshow Team Heritage Second Edition - the first reviews are in ...
♦ Amazing stuff, Dan, and congratulations hardly begin to give you the recognition you deserve for this accomplishment. It is magnificent, all the way. Your first 27 pages (of the updated section) just blow me away. Don't miss this one! Former Snowbird Lead, Dan Dempsey, has revised his world-class book A Tradition of Excellence: Canada's Airshow Team Heritage. By far the grandest, most in-depth and magnificently-produced Canadian aviation book ever published, this is a treasure that deserves a place of honour in any aviation fan's library. Full coverage 1918 to 2007 of such great Canadian teams as the Siskins of 1930, the Blue Devils of 1950, such later teams as Gray Ghosts, Golden Hawks and Golden Centennaires, and today's Snowbirds. Many other teams fly across the pages of this astounding publication, whether Canadian or such visitors from abroad as the Red Arrows, Frecci Tricolori, Blue Angels or Thunderbirds. Airshow planes covered include everything from the WWI Fokker D.VII to the Siskin, Seafire, Harvard, Mustang, Vampire, Banshee, Sabre, T-33, CF-100, CF-101, CF-104, Tutor, Musketeer, CF-5, CF-18, Kiowa, even the Argus, Neptune, Tracker and Sea King! Many warbirds (Spitfire, Hurricane, Lancaster, etc.) and other civilian types also pop up as you turn the pages of this masterpiece. Stunning original paintings by the great Peter Mossman and other artists complement the photos, many of which are from the lenses of the world's top aviation photographers. With 1000s of photos and weighing 4 kg, you'll need a sturdy coffee table for this beauty, but you'll revel in every page. Publishing perfectionist that he is, author Dempsey has been sure to include a full appendix, bibliography and index. 766pp, hc, 9.5x12 in. $125.00 CANAV Price $110.00 + $8.50 shipping + GST. (USA US$135pp, Overseas US$165.00pp)Larry Milberry CANAV Books Review August 4, 2007
♦ I would like to congratulate you on your book release ... Great job! The book is interesting and filled with fantastic photographs. Paul Houle Toronto , Ontario September 8, 2007 We've received our book and WOW!! It is definitely going to be one of the most enjoyable reads and keepsakes in our household. My husband is a helicopter pilot and an avid aviation buff. I haven't seen him since the book arrived but know he's hunkered down somewhere in the house. He'll surface every once in a while to show me some pictures and very excitedly explain what he just read. The detail, the history, the pictures! Thanks for sharing this remarkable, well written, well researched documentation of Canadian aerobatics history. Vicki & Phil Clay October 5, 2007
♦ It is a tome of extraordinary information, well written and presented ... it is one of my treasures ... Gerry Gelley Florida October 17, 2007 Wow, what a book! Mark Tibbetts Puslinch, Ontario October 16, 2007
HIGH FLIGHT ENTERPRISES LTD. _________________________________________________ 2 The following book reviews and testimonial messages were received following the publication of the first edition of A Tradition of Excellence - Canada's Airshow Team Heritage: Media Reviews
♦ This is not just a splendid book, it is a spectacular one ... It can only be described as a labour of love, a fastidiously researched and profusely illustrated account of the history of Canadian air force and navy aerobatic teams over the years ... Dr . James A. Boutilier Professor of Military History Veritas Magazine, RMC Club of Canada
♦ Canada's Aviation Blockbuster of the Year - A Spectacular Presentation ... Airforce Magazine ♦ The quality of Dempsey "s book lives up to the Snowbirds" tradition of excellence ... A monumental book sure to gladden the heart of any aircraft buff ... Sidney Allinson, Victoria Times Colonist
♦ Magnificent ... Clearly a labour of love ... Mary Lou Finlay As it Happens - CBC Radio
♦ For aviation enthusiasts, nothing matches the thrill of an airshow: the precision flying, the daring aerobatic manoeuvres and the powerful machinery have drawn thousands of people to Canada's airshows for over 80 years. Of course, the Snowbirds are a household name, but their excellence is drawn from a long tradition of other Canadian teams, from the RCAF's Blue Devils, Golden Hawks and the Golden Centennaires. Former Snowbird Lieutenant Colonel Dan Dempsey's thorough compilation of the history of Canadian air military and civilian teams is collected in 700 pages that are rich in detail of text and enlivened with 1,700 fabulous photographs that make this hefty book a page turner as well as a collector's item ... The Globe and Mail source
♦ It's a wonderful book ... a gap in our history now superbly covered. A Tradition of Excellence is a well-researched, well-written, beautifully illustrated book to delight all those who have, over the past 70 years, thrilled to the flawless aerial ballets at countless airshows. For older readers, it will bring back some stirring memories of fast, noisy aircraft doing incredible things close to the ground. For younger readers, it will be an opportunity to delve into the past to see how the air force established those traditions of airshow excellence ... Bob Merrick, COPA Flight
♦ Outstanding ... Highly recommended to our listeners ... Sterling Faux, Corus Radio Network 3
♦ This book is unarguably the definitive history of Canada's airshow demonstration teams ... Dempsey has left no stone unturned researching this book, and the collective stories are all backed up with hundreds of gorgeous illustrations and photographs ... This book goes a long way towards promoting the continued tradition of aerial demonstration in Canadian aviation and is an essential addition to the library of any Canadian aviation aficionado ... Aviator Magazine
♦ This book was well publicized before hand and a long time coming, but the lengthy gestation period was worth the wait and the results are spectacular. It weighs in at over eight pounds, so strengthen your coffee table. The author is an ex Snowbirds leader and obviously a devotee of excellence in the publishing field as well. The book is well researched, reads well, and is replete with quality images. Photos and avart illustrations abound. For example, there are over two dozen repros of works by nine CAAA members alone, many in large scale format, and an exceptionally fine set of colour profiles by Peter Mossman (some 42, covering 14 pages). The narrative runs from the earliest days of the RCAF up to the present, and much of the knowledgeable commentary is provided by airmen who were part of the numerous teams, and by the solo performers as well. This gives the reader a rare insight into the technical and highly professional side of demonstration flying; it also conveys equally well the immense pride these people took in their work and the emotions of patriotism and camaraderie that inspired them and which still stir memories of what was for many "the best years of our lives". The book was printed by Friesens of Manitoba, and apparently no expense was spared in the production standards. While the price of this opulent offering is necessarily high, it definitely delivers full value for the cost. And, hey, what keen aviation artist wouldn "t gladly forsake a night of fine wining and dining with a companion just to have such a volume in his / her library? In a year of outstanding aviation books, this one stands out most strongly - but don "t waste time in obtaining one, because it is not likely to ever be found on a "remainders" table and is surely destined to become a collector "s item. Don Connolly - Aerial Views Canadian Aviation Artists" Association
♦ Rich in spectacular photography, wonderful illustrations, and detailed research, the book is exceptional in every way. It's a collector's item for young and old alike ... It's no exaggeration to say that Dempsey has done a flawless job in his first book. His enthusiasm, dedication and professionalism shine through on every page. He finishes with an eloquent appeal for the preservation of the Snowbirds and the replacement of the 1960s-vintage Tutors with new aircraft ... The book is an excellent investment. It will provide many hours of enjoyment and a new appreciation of why the Snowbirds and their predecessors should justifiably be regarded as national treasures. Gord McNulty The Hamilton Spectator 4
♦ A Tradition of Excellence Canada's Airshow Team Heritage Reviewed by Mark Proulx 10 "X12" Hard Cover 734 Pages ISBN 0-9687817-0-5
Canada has had a long and proud tradition associated with its military precision aerobatics teams, which began over 80 years ago. In 1919, WW I flying ace LCol. William Barker lead the first public display of formation flying in Toronto using "war trophy" Fokker D. VII 's. Today, Canada's Snowbirds continue to amaze millions of spectators around the world in their 9-ship formation of CT-114 Tutors. This new book, entitled A Tradition of Excellence, brings that history to life as it explores the past. Daniel V. Dempsey, who is uniquely qualified to undertake such a massive task, writes this extensive work. He flew with The Snowbirds in 1980 and 1981 as Snowbird 9, one of the team's two solos. He would go on to lead the team in 1989 and 1990 through their 20th anniversary and 1000th official performance. The book has taken almost six years to complete and is the first work to completely detail scores of Canadian military demonstration teams. To ensure total historical accuracy sources were contacted throughout Canada, the United States and Europe. Countless hours were spent gathering photos, locating and interviewing dozens of former team members about their experiences. The hard cover book, published by High Flight Enterprises, is printed on thick, high quality glossy paper. Slightly more than 700 pages are lavishly illustrated with over 1700 black and white and color photographs, many never before seen. Photos abound of F-86's, CF-101s, CF-104's and CF-5's just to name a few. Peter Mossman, an illustrator from Toronto, Canada, provides the color profiles for 42 different aircraft near the books center section. The profiles are superbly done, depicting each aircraft in their highly polished state, as would be the norm for an airshow aircraft. Many of the aerial manoeuvres are illustrated from such famous groups as the Golden Hawks and Golden Centennaires. Various Snowbird formations have been flown through the years, with each being shown in overhead views. The book includes complete photo coverage of all prints currently completed. 5 This book is a perfect blend of photography and text. The author gives a history of each group chronicled with photos of pilots, groundcrew, squadron crests, patches and aircraft. I am sure that this book will offer months of pleasurable reading as there is so much information supplied to the reader. It contains an extensive listing of each of Canada's military airshow teams. Information includes the years and aircraft flown with serial number, base location and each pilot with their assigned positions. Of course, praise is also given to the ground crews that have kept the Snowbirds flying throughout the years with a listing of each of their names and the duties they performed. I feel confident stating that this book has resulted in the most complete history ever written on Canada's airshow teams. For anyone interested in Canada's flying history or military precision aerobatics in general, this high quality book as an absolute must for your reference library . I highly recommend it without hesitation. Modellers will find the color photos and side 6 profiles extremely helpful. Lieutenant Colonel (Ret'd) Dan Dempsey is to be complimented for undertaking such a huge task and writing a book in what I am sure is a true labour of love. © Mark Proulx 2002, CAHS Journal
Individual Testimonials
♦ Fabulous ... Two days of skimming and now I've got to start reading. I can't imagine the time & effort this has taken. The finest aviation book I've seen ... Congratulations, many times over. Bob Hallowell Comox, British Columbia 25 Oct 2002
♦ What a monster!!! I'm overwhelmed, she's a thing of beauty ... James W. Jones Ottawa, Ontario 28 Oct 2002
♦ Received the "package" today. In a word: WOW!!! Vic Johnson Ottawa, Ontario 28 Oct 2002
♦ The book is truly magnificent!! Congratulations once again on the wonderful achievement represented in "A Tradition of Excellence." FR Sutherland, LGen (Ret'd ) Bath, Ontario 30 Oct 2002
♦ I'm totally blown away at the whole book ... Brilliant effort! Graham Wragg CAHS Gibson's Landing, British Columbia 30 Oct 2002
♦ I received my copy this afternoon and have been scanning through it for the past two hours . It's going to take a lot of reading ... It was well worth the wait. Please accept my congratulations on a superb effort. Ernie Saunders Abbotsford, British Columbia 28 Oct 2002 7
♦ Let me add to, what I am sure, are the many congratulatory messages on your achievement. It really is a magnificent book. It should be compulsory reading for today "s Air Force so they can appreciate what a tradition they have to live up to & realize what it was like to serve in the heyday ... Once again, congratulations on a wonderful achievement. Bill Gladders Comox, British Columbia 26 Oct 2002
♦ Great job Dan! I'm going to have to bring it home from work before I get fired. My boss keeps catching me reading it. I can ' t stop. I'm sure you are glad it's over but it's obvious from the final product that it was a labour of love. JR Roulston Comox, British Columbia 28 Oct 2002
♦ Congratulations, it is a magnificent piece of work - I love it . I can almost smell my cockpit again when looking at all those pictures; and so many that I have never seen before. This is going to give me many happy hours of perusing. It was worth the wait. Tony Brett Royston, British Columbia 29 Oct 2002
♦ All I can say is "Wow" ... I knew it was going to be good but this masterpiece is wonderful by each and every standard. It's such a superb effort ... in keeping with your own "tradition of excellence "BZ! Col Terry Leversedge Ottawa, Ontario 1 Nov 2002 RCAF Official Historian
♦ The book is fantastic beyond my wildest dreams. The depth of the material and wonderful story told is something you must truly be commended for. Never have I seen such a complete work on such a complex subject ... How you managed to do such a great job while still maintaining your flight schedule is beyond me ... Kudos, kudos, kudos on your magnificent work. David O'Malley Ottawa, Ontario 1 Nov 2002
♦ I received my copy of your book in excellent condition. What can I say? You must be feeling a sense of pride and accomplishment. Really well done! Garth Dingman Bath, Ontario 3 Nov 2002 8
♦ Just wanted to send a note to let you know that I received the book and what a book it is. You have done a fantastic job and should be very proud, it will be something I treasure forever ... Wade Konecsni Manotick, Ontario 4 Nov 2002
♦ Received my copy a couple of hours ago and haven't been able to put it down. It is superb. Even with the rave pre-publication comments I had received from people such as Dave O'Malley, it is still more than I expected. You can be justifiably proud of your work. Russell Bennett Halifax, Nova Scotia 4 Nov 2002
♦ Wow! What a fantastic book ... It took a few evenings just to work through the pictures. Now I am starting on the narrative. It is obvious so far that it was a labour of love for you. Kevin Psutka, COPA Flight Ottawa, Ontario 5 Nov 2002
♦ We received your book today. We dropped everything and sat down to leaf through it and before we knew it 2 hours had passed. It is absolutely awesome ... the pictures are fabulous ... What a monumental achievement. .. You and Ruth must be so proud of this valuable resource which you have so cleverly and beautifully put together. Every aviation enthusiast must have this marvellous book. Congratulations ... Rich & Jay Thistle (Aviation Historian and renown Aviation artist) Rich Thistle website Wasaga Beach, Ontario 5 Nov 2002
♦ Have received and reviewed what can only be described as the most fantastic tome of aviation history that I have had the privilege to own. I attended a mess dinner last night at the RCAF Mess and it was the topic of discussion from the top down. Dave Thom Manotick, Ontario 6 Nov 2002
♦ You have done an outstanding, fantastic, incredible job on the book. I can't believe the amount of research you must have done. When did you find time to do anything else in 7 years? You must have needed a huge staff as proof readers, layouts etc. (I'm sure your wife must have been a part of this work). There are so many names of old jocks I have known. Sure brings back a lot of memories of the good times and achievements. I never realized there were so many aero and demo teams in existence over the years ... Again congratulations on a magnificent job. There will be a lot of reading and reminiscing this winter. Thanks for the memories ... Chuck Keating Red Deer, Alberta, 6 Nov 2002 9
♦ Words fail me ... You have set a new standard Dan. There is NOTHING like this in existence. Anywhere. Period ... Please accept my most sincere congratulations on an absolutely magnificent accomplishment. Christopher J. Terry, President & CEO Canada Science and Technology Museum Corporation Ottawa, Canada. 8 November 2002
♦ Congratulations Dan - A truly magnificent book. Jack Phillips, White Rock, British Columbia 9 Nov 2002
FWiW, I have probably neglected to mention that I am also an accredited Official RCAF Historian. Bzuk ( talk) 12:19, 13 November 2011 (UTC).
Foreward by Lieutenant General Fred R. Sutherland, CMM, CD. Honorary Colonel - 431 Air Demonstration Squadron
"Now look straight ahead for the nine twinkling lights as the Team Lead calls for the Snowbirds to check in." With these words, the ensuing pull-up of the 'trademark' nine-plane formation and the stirring sounds of Steven Vitali's musical tribute, In Flight, another Snowbird show begins.
For the next 30 minutes, audiences ranging in size from a few hundred in Canada's Far North, to several hundred thousand at other major showsites across Canada and the United States, will be treated to a display of aerial skill and professionalism by Canada's world famous air demonstration team. The show is, in every sense of the word, a virtual aerial ballet, choreographed with a precision in time and space that knows few equals.
Members of today's Snowbird team shoulder a significant responsibility - one which is subliminal, and thus unspoken, but which is very real. That responsibility is threefold. First, it is to execute the team's primary mission - specifically to demonstrate the professionalism of each member of the Canadian Forces. Second, it is one of 'stewardship,' that is, to maintain the very high reputation established by all those aircrew and groundcrew members who have preceded them in the team's proud history. Finally, it is to preserve the 'tradition of excellence' established by such eminent predecessors as the Siskins, Blue Devils, Golden Hawks and Golden Centennaires in a legacy that dates back over eight decades in Canada. Even today, these teams still evoke powerful memories from those fortunate enough to have seen them fly - each of them an integral part of Canada's proud aviation heritage.
Through his book, Dan Dempsey makes an invaluable contribution to the preservation of this 'tradition of excellence.' Only someone who has been there and who has established such credibility within the airshow team community, both past and present, could have elicited so many rich first-hand accounts of their experiences from members of that unique fraternity. Coupled with outstanding collections of photographs and art work, this book provides a truly superb chronicle of the distinguished history and proud legacy of Canada's aerial demonstration teams.
This wonderful book must and will serve as a constant and vivid reminder, to both the people of Canada and to our country's civilian and military decision makers, that the Snowbirds are the visible and very popular custodians of our airshow heritage. By discharging their role with such singular excellence during their 32-year history, and by touching millions of lives in such a positive way, they have become, in every sense of the word, a national treasure - a treasure which simply must be preserved for future generations of Canadians to see.
F.R. Sutherland, CMM, CD Lieutenant-General (Ret'd) Honorary Colonel 431 (AD) Sqn ♦ Received the book today - truly magnificent!! The CD Rom simply can't do it justice. F.R. Sutherland LGen (Ret’d), Bath, Ontario, 30 Oct 2002. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 13:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC).
... and further, the author has been a contributor to academic and trade journals as a historian, and fulfills that role with a flight team, historical association and private museum/collection. The above statements are examples of the book being reviewed by independent and reputable media and history-based sources, and should not be considered "irrelevant"; rather, they fulfill the requirement of having a peer review.
At the same time, one of the aspects that is missing in an academic work is the documentation which likely exists but is not provided within the book (likely because of a choice of limiting the already large amount of text rather than choosing to create a popular-vein approach or worse, having a less than authentic account). The other aspect that is present is a perceived "boosterism" for the home team.
Given the excellent points already raised, is A Tradition of Excellence: Canada's Airshow Team Heritage accurate? Difficult to assess by outsiders, but "insiders" conclude that it is an accurate historical record of Canada's air teams. Was it written by an experte or knowledgeable subject matter specialist? Yes Was due care and academic standards met? Yes and no here, as the attributable reference sources are not present but in many cases, can be verified by other sources. Is it a valuable resource? Again, yes for most of the "curate's egg" but obviously, the other part of the "curate's egg" is inclusion of opinions by the author that must be tempered by a more jaundiced view of having a lobbying effort appear within an otherwise, historical treatise. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 16:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC).
This discussion seems to have come to an end, so I thought I would summarize it before it gets archived. In re-reading all the comments it seems that the general consensus is that this book can be used as a source for factual information, but, because of its self-published nature and unabashed Snowbirds lobbying, should not be used for opinion or mistaken for an objective academic-style history book. Please do correct me if anyone thinks this is not an accurate summary. - Ahunt ( talk) 20:59, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Is Genocide Watch a suitable source for including one of their statements in a BLP? Do goverments and other civil society organisations pay serious attention to what Genocide Wach has to say or is it a fringe organisation with little credibility? A statement by the organisation is being used in Julius Malema#Genocide Watch Place South Africa at Stage 6 on Countries at Risk Chart. In the light of the strict sourcing rules regarding negative information in BLPs, I'm not sure if the section should be in the article. The subject of the BLP is currently a hot topic in South Africa. Roger ( talk) 09:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
(I originally asked this over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Psychology)
What's the procedure for dealing with sources that become dubious? Are any of our articles affected by this (alleged) data manipulation?
( University of Tilburg report, Science Magazine article via The Chronicle of Higher Education via Reddit) -- Lexein ( talk) 19:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Is this site reliable for its South Park reviews?
Someone has used his book in this article as the main source of book burning by Arabs in Persia. This is while besides being a primary source, the translator of this book to English Dr. Franz Rosenthal, calls this story a legend here
Is it acceptable as a reliable source?-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 04:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I am currently having an issue getting this direct quote in to the Weston Price article:
In his 1939 Nutrition and Physical Degeneration book Price made one passing comment about his 1923 work:
In my search for the cause of degeneration of the human face and the dental organs I have been unable to find an approach to the problem through the study of affected individuals and diseased tissues. In my two volume work on "Dental Infections," Volume I, entitled "Dental Infections, Oral and Systemic," and Volume II, entitled "Dental Infections and the Degenerative Diseases," (PRICE, W. A. Dental Infections, Oral and Systemic. Cleveland, Penton, 1923) I reviewed at length the researches that I had conducted to throw light on this problem. The evidence seemed to indicate clearly that the forces that were at work were not to be found in the diseased tissues, but that the undesirable conditions were the result of the absence of something, rather than of the presence of something. This strongly indicated the need for finding groups of individuals so physically perfect that they could be used as controls. In order to discover them, I determined to search out primitive racial stocks that were free from the degenerative processes with which we are concerned in order to note what they have that we do not have."
(Price, Weston (1939) Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: A Comparison of Primitive and Modern Diets and Their Effects Paul B. Hoeber, Inc; Medical Book Department of Harper & Brothers)
Several things here:
First, given Price had to vet through Paul B. Hoeber, Inc; Medical Book Department of Harper & Brothers is the source reliable regarding Price's own view of Dental Infections and the Degenerative Diseases?
Second, just where does the work as a whole fall? Secondary source because it was vetted through Paul B. Hoeber, Inc; Medical Book Department of Harper & Brothers or a Primary source because it was written by Price? (See Princeton University's classification of What is a Primary Source?)
Third, even if the passage itself qualifies as a Primary source is it reliable regarding Price's own view of his earlier 1923 work?
Right now I am going for reliability not NPOV so don't waste our time with that. Once the RS of this source is confirmed or denied we can work on the NPOV issues.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 10:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
It might be helpful to make a list of all the discussions on this, so we're not wasting time. -- Ronz ( talk) 21:39, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
There is an argument about whether a blog on newsbusters.org is a reliable source to claim that Muller admitted believing in man-made global warming at least as far back as the early 1980. Here is the blog [6]. Here is the section of interest Richard_A._Muller#Hockey_stick_graph_controversy. Here is the diff of the addition [7]. IRWolfie- ( talk) 12:32, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I am going to make a strong claim on why these sources are reliable.
Now lets talk about what kind of sources could establish notablility for an electronic sports player.
Is it possible for an experience source checker to look into this? Thank You.
Redefining history (
talk) 04:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Wheres Dan ( talk · contribs) seems to have a faulty understanding of WP:RS and WP:VERIFY if I understand what he's said at Talk:Tribe of Dan correctly (also see his talk page). Here [9] he insists he can use [10] which is a "Third grade text-book in the Lutheran graded system for intermediate Sunday-schools". I'll let him know I've raised this issue. Dougweller ( talk) 21:34, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
LNot actually ludicrous as a claim, howevewr. See the 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia [11] 31:6) to work with Bezaleel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, in the construction of the Tabernacle (ib. xxxv. 34; xxxvi. 1, 2). Oholiab was "an engraver, and a cunning workman, and an embroiderer in blue, and in purple, and in scarlet, and fine linen" (ib. xxxviii. 23). E. G. H, and a bunch of Masonic and Catholic cites as well. Is there a reason for deeming this contentious in some way? Cheers. Collect ( talk) 22:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
In this edit I added a print source regarding the master of RMS Titanic's delivery voyage. An editor reverted it, describing the addition as "vandalism". I reinstated it, with a quote, here. Contributor removed it again, describing it as an "obvious error". Requesting an assessment of the validity of the print source, please.
Previous talk page discussion here—the contributor explains that he/she has been "...studying the disaster on my own as a hobby since the Titanic was discovered in 1985, I've learned never to trust or take for granted any information as fact...". It seems from this that the print source is challenged only from the contributor's original research.
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 18:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Undeadly is a news site with extensive coverage of OpenBSD, its developers and related projects. As I write on OpenBSD-related projects, I would like to know, does Undeadly on its own count as a reliable source in terms of WP:RS. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 15:04, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I have never posted here before so please excuse any deviation from proper procedure. It would be inadvertent.
1.Questioned Text:
Ou, George; New tools to combat thieves online;Daily Caller 10/25/2011
2. http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/25/new-tools-to-combat-thieves-online/
3. Appears in Protect IP Act
4. Context:
Five Internet engineers, Steve Crocker, David Dagon, Dan Kaminsky, Danny McPherson and Paul Vixie have prepared a whitepaper[34] suggesting that the DNS filtering provisions in the bill "raise serious technical and security concerns" and would "break the Internet", while other engineers and proponents of the act have called those concerns groundless and without merit.[35][36][37][38][39][40]
By the way
The footnotes in that paragraph link, in the following order, to:
http://www.circleid.com/pdf/PROTECT-IP-Technical-Whitepaper-Final.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/59599226/Debunking-DNS-Filtering-Concerns
http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/25/new-tools-to-combat-thieves-online/
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/393667/engineers_protect_ip_act_would_break_dns/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/dns-filtering/#more-26745
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20069824-281/protect-ip-copyright-bill-faces-growing-criticism/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/18/opinion/l18internet.html?_r=2
Thank you for your thoughts. Elinruby ( talk) 16:50, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
A kind user ( 66.183.40.56) recently contributed edits to several dozen articles to provide ridership numbers on the Vancouver transit system. It is the Passengers (2009) statistic in each of those articles' info boxes that is in question here. These are relevant and useful contributions to the articles. Unfortunately, I struggle to verify these facts due to the complex procedure required to do so. The user offers the verification instructions on their talk page. I have a couple of questions, and would like to hear others' thoughts.
Hoping to find a way for the new facts to remain in the articles, so appreciate any insight or suggestions... -- Ds13 ( talk) 18:12, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
"
Fare evasion on SkyTrain and Canada Line" Vancouver Sun provides: cskelton [pseudonym] (2010 Nov 7, 02:42 pm)
Fare Paid - Ross.twbx (Tableaux Public data file) using within Tableaux Public Data="Matched (Fare Paid by Skytrain Station - Matched.xlsx)"; Dimension added to sheet "Abc Station"; Measure added to sheet "Boardings 2009"; The simple calculated sum Boardings 2009 is 78,845,243.
--— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Fifelfoo (
talk •
contribs) 00:49, 17 November 2011 "
Fare evasion on SkyTrain and Canada Line" Vancouver Sun provides: cskelton [pseudonym] (2010 Nov 7, 02:42 pm)
"Fare Paid - Ross.twbx" (Tableaux Public data file) used within
Tableau Public; Data="Fare Paid by Skytrain Station - Matched.xlsx"; Dimensions "Abc Station" added to sheet; Measures "Boardings 2009" added to sheet; The simple calculated sum "Boardings 2009" is 78,845,243.
--
Lexein (
talk) 01:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)How do people see blogs at The Economist? For example, can this be used as a source?
Also, what about opinion pieces such as this in say The New York Times or other major newspapers? Be——Critical 20:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Can you tell me about this source? As far as I can tell, it is in the name of Forbes, by a staff writer, but not really designated as an opinion piece. Can factual information for WP be drawn from the following quote?
Since 2008, national unemployment rates have remained above 9% with much higher rates for African Americans and youth—16% and 24.6% respectively. An estimated 10.4 million mortgages could default this year. Income inequality, with concentrated wealth at the top and flat incomes or impoverishment for the vast majority of the country’s population, has increased precipitously since the 1960s. The well known facts are worth reciting again: the top one percent of the country owns 34.6% of the wealth in total net worth; the next 19% owns 50.5%; the bottom 80% owns 15%. In financial wealth, the figures are even more startling: 42.7%, 50.3%, and 7.0% respectively. And these statistics from UC-Santa Barbara Sociology Professor G. William Domhoff are from 2007, the most recent complete data available for analysis. Domhoff cites economist Edward Wolff, who concludes that the Great Recession has meant a whopping drop of 36.1% in median household wealth as compared to 11.1% for the top one percent, further widening the gulf between the obscenely rich and the rest of us—the 99%.
(more source links in original) Be——Critical 22:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Is http://www.frogkick.nl/ a reliable source for an encyclopedic description of scuba gear configuration?
Any outside opinions would be most welcome. -- RexxS ( talk) 14:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Is the Guardian datablog a reliable source for statements of fact in Wikipedia, if posted by a Guardian news editor? I'm talking about data points, not opinions. Be——Critical 06:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Is Marlborough News considered to be reliable? They abide by the editors code of practice and The Press Complaints Commission so would appear to be perfectly acceptable, though an IP editor on the Rachel Reeves article claims the site is a blog. Their site is here: http://www.marlboroughnewsonline.co.uk/about-us
http://hamraaz.org/ as a source for accurate research on Indian music? Shahid • Talk2me 10:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Are the reviews on this website reliable/notable enough to be added to articles on artistic works like Habibi? Of the 17 contributors listed under "Contributors" on that site, two have their own Wikipedia articles, Marguerite Van Cook and James Romberger. But Nadim Damluji, the author of the review of Habibi that one editor added to the Habibi article, is not. Is it acceptable? Nightscream ( talk) 19:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Just came across this publication [14] being used as a source in George McConnell Davison. It's the first source and is supporting a highly flattering quote in the lead. Reading the article, and browsing some of the rest of the publication, it looks like a PR piece which doesn't necessarily make it "unreliable" per se, just not "independent of the subject of the article". Anyone got any info on this publication? GDallimore ( Talk) 17:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
This a Spanish-language site. [15] While I was searching for an album (Bachata Rosa), I've come across forums that claim that the album was certified 7x in Spain, but since forums are user-generated content, I've searched through Google to look for a reliable source that can verify the claim. The above site was the only one I could find and it sources Los 40 Principales as the source of the certifications for those albums, but I do not know it is legitimate to use it. Erick ( talk) 21:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Another one of those "I seriously can't believe I'm making this thread, but the opinions of others compel me to..." threads...
Is Time magazine a reliable source? Users at Talk:Catholicism and abortion claim that it cannot be used in a paragraph on comments made by the Pope in 2007 because it is not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church, describing opinions other than the official RCC hierarchy opinion as those of "random other people," and that instead of including its interpretation of events (that this statement applies to pro-choice Catholic politicians generally) as we are specifically asked to do by WP:PRIMARY, we should instead include only the pope's quote (which these users wish to interpret to suggest that it only refers to a few specific politicians). Incidentally, the AP source that they left in also discusses the statement's broader relevance (as do the NYT, etc.), which however appears nowhere in the version to which these users reverted.
It's also worth mentioning that one of these users removed the source to make a point about my removing an anti-abortion advocacy website, but I thought I'd assume good faith and bring it here as though it were a real dispute.
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 19:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
It looks to me in this case that Time has not made a misinterpretation of any quote. I has made what appears to be a fairly straightforward interpretation of the words "they are excommunicated". The article does also include the view of a Vatican spokesperson that the words should not be taken to mean that anyone was excommunicated. It seem clear to me that the Pope mis-spoke on this occasion. It probably doesn't reflect the official position of Roman Catholicism, but the fact that it was said by the Pope is probably noteworthy for inclusion in the article, with clarification if and as appropriate. -- FormerIP ( talk) 20:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
"Do you agree with the excommunications given to legislators in Mexico City on the question?" a reporter asked. "Yes. The excommunication was not something arbitrary. It is part of the (canon law) code. It is based simply on the principle that the killing of an innocent human child is incompatible with going in Communion with the body of Christ. Thus, they (the bishops) didn't do anything new or anything surprising. Or arbitrary."
Could people share their opinions on whether the following sources are to be considered RS for information on the family background of John of Damascus? More information on the crux of the dispute can be found in the discussion on the talk page at Talk:John of Damascus#sources on his origins.
A edit war has been going on for sometime at Moor see [16] (not involving this editor - for once). The area of principle disagreement is with this statement. " Moors" are not a distinct or self-defined people. Medieval and early modern Europeans applied the name primarily to Berbers, but also at various times to Arabs, Muslim Iberians and West Africans from Mali and Niger who had been absorbed into the Almoravid dynasty (section in bold) is the area of dispute the reference being given is Ivan Van Sertima and the book [17] also Amazon Book. Some have noted that Van Sertima is not an expert on Moorish history (due to other non-related historical mistakes he made) but I think the real question is can that particular opinion from him be trusted for inclusion? Is it so radical that merits a Fringe notice or is it acceptable? I will wait for feedback b4 i give my opinion.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 07:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source for claiming that Mount Hermon is in Israel? nableezy - 19:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Does this website qualify RS?
Joyson Noel Holla at me! 14:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
A number of facts at KAI T-50 Golden Eagle have been referenced using images of display boards taken at an exhibition. These images have been hosted on blogs and image hosts then used as a source for the information. Are images of display material a reliable source, and if they are can we link to blogs and image hosts as references? I presume they cant be uploaded to wikipedia as they would probably be copyrighted material, thanks. MilborneOne ( talk) 15:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
It should be duly noted that these display boards pertaining to T-50 have been set up by the manufacturers of T-50 itself (or its components) in some of the largest aerospace exhibitions and air shows in the country, such as the ADEX. I'll provide some example images here:
F-50 proposed next-generation fighter: http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL085/upload/2007/07/f-50_1.jpg
Flightglobal news on KAI's proposal of an F-50 variant: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/south-korea-gets-t-50-work-as-kai-studies-fighter-variant-169416/
Weapons fit for armed T-50 variants:
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL105/upload/2005/10/A-50%20%B9%AB%C0%E5%20%281%29_1.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL105/upload/2005/10/A-50%20%B9%AB%C0%E5%20%284%29_1.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10040/upfile/201009/20100925140812_2.jpg
Supplementary DefenseIndustryDaily news on FA-50's weapons fit: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/koreas-t-50-spreads-its-wings-04004/
Avionics components for T-50, and their manufacturers: http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=cutysio&logNo=40127916907&viewDate=¤tPage=1&listtype=0
Website of the event's host: http://www.rndkorea.or.kr/
I've already known for a long time that 'blogs' are deemed unreliable sources in Wikipedia if they are used as direct references. But I'm not directly referring to blogs to verify some important information regarding T-50, such as proposed variants, armaments, and component producers; I only want to refer to the legitimate exhibition materials made and presented by manufacturers regarding T-50 design proposals, armament specifications, components content, etc., and I'd totally do I way with blogs whenever I could; it's just that there are no convenient way I can see of showing these materials in Wikipedia unless by using image hosting sites, which could sometimes be blogs. I'm of the opinion that we should find a mutually agreed means to rate the credibility of these exhibition materials not by the blog nature of the image hosting site but by who made and presented them (KAI, Lockheed Martin, MDS Technology, etc), and where they were hosted (the biannual ADEX, or other regular technology R&D accomplishment exhibition, etc). The direct attribution should be given to the manufacturers themselves who made and presented the exhibition materials, and to the hosts of such official exhibition events, but as I've said, I myself have found no way of linking Wikipedia to these materials unless I use image hosting sites. A small suggestion to the OP: maybe instead of preemptively accusing me of being purposefully disruptive and deleting what I intend to be good faith edits without even discussing the matter with the community first, you can actually help me get the exhibition materials properly attributed to their creators (the manufacturers themselves) and their hosts (Ministry of Knowledge and Economy and other government branches) by suggesting alternatives to blogs and other unrelated commercial sites for image hosting. Desagwan ( talk) 16:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I think images like the T-50 avionics operating system having the IEEE POSIX certification and who produces what is not really aimed at advertisement; they are merely stating educational facts about T-50 to an audience that's unlikely to ever personally buy T-50's avionics components, kinda like museum exhibitions (are museums going to be considered unreliable sources, then?). Your concern about the potential advertising nature of the display boards in other exhibitions like ADEX has its merit, though I tend to think that if KAI really thought its T-50 couldn't deliver the capabilities that it says it could (like F-50 having next-generational capabilities compared to present T-50, if developed), it wouldn't have exhibited the models and display boards in such a blatant and outright way (which will have severe ethical implications should the claims prove false) to such a large audience in one of the biggest aerospace exhibitions in the world. I think KAI, as the largest and flagship aerospace company in Korea, has plenty of obligations to state facts about their aircraft in such an important PR event where the business-ethical image of the company itself (and perhaps of Korea's entire aerospace industry) may be directly at stake. In any case, the claims made in the images over time were proven by secondary non-manufacturer sources (some even before, like the existence of F-50 by Flightglobal and by others if we search long enough), but this article's editorial progress is so slow due to the small number of editors dedicated to T-50, with only a few select people like me (perhaps only me, at this moment) to process the disproportionately large amount of information and defend the editions made against an outnumbering opposing side, and such slow dissemination of information about T-50 can sometimes sow unnecessary disputes about T-50's capabilities, design, service history, etc that otherwise doesn't need to exist (like how some readers couldn't accept that FA-50, in fact, can be comparable to other fighters like F-16, Saab Gripen; we also have much simpler disputes about the different looks between T-50, T-50B, and TA-50, as well as their ID). Desagwan ( talk) 04:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I am Jewish and the mother of 4 children. One of my children was in a private school which approached my husband and me with the name of Marina von Prutzmann ...they wanted her to come and live with us. I did not know how to rsearch the family of this girl and accepted her in the summer of 1975 for the coming school year. She was 16. She did nothing wrong in our house but our children did not "take" to her and she was hard on the people of German extraction in Milwaukee.... saying things to their faces such as, "My that is a funny German name...." and thus displaying an arrogant attitude on the part of a genuine German to a transplanted one whose famiy probably had been in the US for at least 100 years at that point... and may have come to the USA as poor people with peasant type names. Because of her standoffishness, I wrote to her parents and said that she really was not adapting well and either that the school had to place her elsewhere in the USA or in Milwaukee OR she had to go home. THey asked to meet us in Holland and I met General Von Prutzmann's eldest son, who never saw his father after he went to war. The son was a fine man with a terrific limp; he had suffered a deep injury. He was married to a beautiful woman, Marina's mother. It was Marina's mother who said, "Oh the General never fought against the USA, he fought on the Eastern Front with the Waffen SS." As if fighting on the Eastern front made his efforts part of a different war. I said, "My son found out he was in Riga as a leader." "Oh, yes by that time in Latvia, he held a high position. Very high," she said, "but still he never fought with the western armies." My husband said, "The Russians by that time had ceased being your allies and had become ours. It was the same war and it was not supposed to be fought against civilians." "They needed food..... " and we decided to stop talking about it. I later found out how he was the head of the ghetto-concentration camp in Riga which was infamous after a while for the mass murders performed there and at Baba Yar.
The son was a kind man who made no defense for his father. He just loved him and missed him as a child. The son was terribly affected by everything in his past. His wife was not, and Marina not at all. There is a possibility that at 16 she was just acting up in our house and 'acting out' as they say today... prehaps because she could not do so at home. Certainly she talked about there being fewer opportunities to go to University in Germany than there were in the USA because there were no gradations of qualities in the colleges there. Either you qualified or you did not. So I think she may have been thinking of taking her University training in the USA and was nervous about suggesting this path to her parents. She left out house without finishing out the year; I do not know what happened to any of her family. I could not pursue the relationship not only because of the grandfather and his crimes but also because the only person I was comfortable with was the son and that would have been improper in those days. Perhaps today if a friendship developed between the wife of one man and the husband of another woman it could flourish but in those days, for me at any rate such a friendship would have not been acceptable..... putting aside the history of the German or Jewish heritage or if I were American or not.... just the factors of his being married to a woman and me being the wife of someone else... we could not develop the friendship we both felt. Last night on the Military Channel I saw the photos of Riga and the filling of the Ghetto, pictures of the previous 10,000 practice murders and then the 30,000 at Baba Yar and got upset all over again. How on earth could a general like that have such a fine son.....somethings are not given to us to understand. I hope this is helpful to those studying the subject of Gen. Von Pruztmann and his participation in RIGA in 1941 or so. He was there. He fought the eastern front.... which is the same as fighting in the west. It was the same war. Goldie Kossow age 73 American born — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.9.20.82 ( talk)
The UK news/satire magazine Private_Eye has fairly recently starting putting stories on it's website - for example [19], and so I suspect that wikipedia is likely to find a lot more citations pointing to private-eye. I think it would be sensible to get consensus on the reliability of such citations (personally I believe them to be as valid as any other newspaper website) before, rather than after. (there's been some previous chat about citing the paper version at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_27#UK_news_magazine_Private_Eye).
Are people happy with this as a source?
Failedwizard ( talk) 11:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I've just edited a page in passing called Maghoh is the Reference section acceptable? Apart from the very old EB1911 entry the only other link does not work and there are no translations on the the talk page. I also looked at the first entry in the See also section it too has what I would consider to be similar problems. -- PBS ( talk) 05:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Adnan Oktar ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
An IP requested the deletion of certain material in the Oktar article cited to the above source ( [20]). I looked at the article material and the source and tended to agree with the IP that the source is not a reliable source for the assertion, but I also felt it wasn't a reliable source period. Then, I noticed that the article cites the source 16 times! So, I could remove the material the IP objects to, but it wouldn't solve the continuous sourcing to something that describes itself as "the London based magazine of the Rationalist Association" that "has distinguished itself as a world leader in supporting and promoting humanism and rational inquiry and opposing religious dogma, irrationalism and bunkum wherever it is found."
Does anyone have any comments on whether the source can be used for anything, or is it necessary to analyze each assertion in the WP article? By the way, the WP article cites to just one article at the source's website, which is essentially an attack piece.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 01:16, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
this site is used on hundreds of articles, as far as I can tell it's simply user-generated content and not a RS - anyone come across it. -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 12:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I asked this 2 months ago, and didn't get any response then so will try rewording it in order to improve the article in question I would appreciate knowing if forgetomori.com would be a reliable source for the following statements in Modern man at 1941 bridge opening.
Further research suggests that the modern appearance of the man may not have been so modern. The style of sunglasses first appeared in the 1920s, and in fact Barbara Stanwyck can be seen wearing a similar pair in the film Double Indemnity three years later. On first glance the man is taken by many to be wearing a modern printed T-shirt, but on closer inspection it seems to be a sweater with a sewn-on emblem, the kind of clothing often worn by sports teams of the period. The remainder of his clothing would appear to have been available at the time, though his clothes are far more casual than those worn by the other individuals in the photograph.
and
Debate centers on whether the image genuinely shows a time traveler, has been photomanipulated, or is simply being mistaken as anachronistic.
Forgetomori does appear to be self published, but has been cited as reliable by magazines and journals on both sides of the Pseudo Science debate. More importantly Knowyourmeme cites it as an important source in both debunking the myth and bringing it to wider public attention, and Fortean Times (normally regarded as an RS, but used with care) not only cites forgetomori but repeats the conclusions that forgetomori draws (issue 263, May 2010, "Future Imperfect", Bob Rickard). Finally a published research paper into the myth (Harkness, D., et al., The Mystery of the "1940s Time Traveller": The Changing Face of Online Brand Monitoring. In J. Trant and D. Bearman [eds]. Museums and the Web 2011: Proceedings. Toronto: Archives & Museum Informatics. Published March 31, 2011. Consulted March 31, 2011.) specifically cites Forgetomori as authoritative about the subject in question. From this I would consider that the site is considered expert per the allowances of the self published sources section of Verifiability. The source is only being used to reference the fact that the items regarded as anachronistic in the my dthid actually exist at the time, it does this by citing primary sources from the period which we cannot directly use without engaging in original research and we repeat no hard (fringe or otherwise) conclusions about the case from forgetomori. So can it be considered reliable for this purpose? Stuart.Jamieson ( talk) 14:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
In our article CETI Patterson Power Cell, a claim that " George H. Miley has conducted research on nuclear transmutations in thin films of metals, including thin films in the Patterson Power Cell" is being cited by this source: [21]. I do not think this is a valid citation because infinite-energy.com isn't the sort of mainstream peer-reviewed scientific journal one would require to validate claims of "nuclear transmutations". It looks to me to be an attempt to use the article on the Patterson Cell (which seems only to have survived deletion back in 2007 because it received media attention - see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/CETI_Patterson_Power_Cell) as a coatrack for Miley's research. While Miley may well be a notable physicist in Wikipedia terms, that is no reason to attach undue credibility to particular research he may well have engaged in, but which has not been published in sources of merit. In particular, we should not be asserting that he (and Patterson) have achieved cold fusion or the like - extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 02:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
A reliable source mentioning that Miley did work on the Patterson cell would be "What if cold fusion is real?" by Charles Platt (Wired Nov 1998) [23] -- POVbrigand ( talk) 18:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
In an attempt to impress the !voters at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CETI Patterson Power Cell (2nd nomination) the article has become stuffed overnight with citations to what may be characterised as "doubtful" sources. In an effort to remove any doubt, would contributors please indicate whether the following sources are reliable? I've appended some sample text of what is being claimed:
There's another dozen or more listed at Talk:CETI Patterson Power Cell#Importance of reliable sourcing and verifiability if anybody has the strength to examine those as well. -- RexxS ( talk) 10:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, im currently reveiwing Love, Blactually and would like to know if a couple of the sources currently in the article are reliable. Hope its okay, thanks;
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)Once again- Thanks Mayhem Mario 19:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Are old (circa 1924) United States passports normally available for verification? An editor uses an old passport as source for biographical information in Haviland H. Lund, but doesn't answer when I ask him where this passport can be checked. [25] So is such information available somewhere? Fram ( talk) 15:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I remember seeing in this noticeboard, people talking about pre-Ranke history books (who do not meet his standard definition) as primary source and not secondary. I wonder if this classification is just an inside-wiki thing or there are actually scholarly sources supporting it. Your consideration is appreciated. Kazemita1 ( talk) 19:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Is this wired 1998 article reliable for the figure of $2 million dollars spent on research of the CETI_Patterson_Power_Cell that is mentioned? Considering the wired article author met the owner etc in the way mentioned is it still an independent source? Much of the article is written about their face to face meetings and the tours he was given. [26]. IRWolfie- ( talk) 20:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Here's a good one. There's been an ongoing fight at Demi Moore regarding her birth name. Multiple reliable sources (three mainstream newspapers and People Magazine) state that her birth name was Demetria Guynes. Another editor says that Moore's Twitter feed is a reliable source and since it's (allegedly) her, and the feed says that "Demi is her full name" (not that it doesn't say her birth name wasn't Demetria), that this means her birth name was not Demetria and that the WP:RSes should be ignored. I've been threatened with being taken before the BLPN noticeboard. So, what say you? Is a Twitter feed considered a reliable source? Is it more reliable than the established mainstream press? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 21:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
This is already being discussed at WP:BLPN - it is inappropriate to carry on two different conversations on the same subject. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 22:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to learn whether
the document made by Norwegian National Television [NRK] (
[27],
[28]) dedicated to scholars each having own page at Wikipedia (
Fred Hoyle,
Halton Arp,
Geoffrey Burbidge,
Margaret Burbidge,
Jayant Narlikar,
Hermann Bondi,
Eric Lerner,
John Dobson (amateur astronomer),
M. Lopez-Corredoira scholars from
Los Alamos National Laboratory such as
Anthony L. Peratt, Ph.D, including some Nobel Price winner(s)
Karry Mullis,
Irving Langmuir is regarded for reliable source or not.
Norwegian National Televised Broadcast of Universe The Cosmology Quest. Episode 1: 15 March and 21 March; Episode 2: 22 March and 28 March 2004.
Please advise.
Contested edit:
[29]
The part relevant for this inquiry:
Last sentence in the given edit.
Discussion:
[30]
Thanks
--
Stephfo (
talk) 23:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
NOTE: This user has been topic banned from editing in this subject area. Warning issued Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 23:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Just to let you know. After talking to an informed source via Derek Gallegos( band manager), After Midnight Project has been disbanded.
Are either of these reliable for the article on the UK social stereotype?
I'm saying not, given that there are many sources in the mainstream press and also some academic sources, but someone disagrees suggested it be raised here. Many thanks for further opinions. Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
There has been a kerfuffle at Yui (singer) over reliable sources concerning the individual's legal name. There are no reliable sources in the subject's native language (Japanese) that suggest that she has a publicly known surname or that we have the written Japanese form (kanji) of her legal name.
This has not stopped some editors from using English, French, and German language sources (including the AP and French Cosmo) as citations for this alleged surname, and this has not stopped them from assuming that a Japanese tabloid that published a primary school yearbook photo with this name written in Japanese is also a reliable source. As it is very clear that a Tabloid is not a reliable source, what do we do when the sources in the subject's language honor her request not to publish her full legal name, but foreign sources publish this full name that we cannot corroborate with any sources in the native language? The sources (used on the talk page to support the fact that the surname is a particular name) are as follows:
There is also an old official website of some band that has a young woman who has Yui's alleged full name (in the first section, the photo that is alleged to be Yui is the "Pic 6" link), and her name given in kanji is also nearby.
So what is done in this situation? Do we go with the English (and French and German) sources, or do we go with the subject's privacy that the Japanese press (barring a 4 year old tabloid article) respects? Or is this a matter for another board entirely?— Ryulong ( 竜龙) 20:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
So we can say that her name is "Yui Yoshioka", but we have no real source to say that is written in Japanese as 吉岡唯 outside of the vague mention of a "Yui Yoshioka" on the band website?— Ryulong ( 竜龙) 21:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Ryulong has added the information about the latin alphabet transliteration, although I think it's a little too apologetic, and it would be better to put it in the infobox with a footnote explaining that her real name does not appear in Japanese media. We have a similar situation with Becky. Talent agencies in Japan are revoltingly powerful; they appear to be able to keep people's real names out of the press even when their property is on our screens all the bloody time. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 13:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 105 | ← | Archive 107 | Archive 108 | Archive 109 | Archive 110 | Archive 111 | → | Archive 115 |
Hi all,
as part of a discussion at Talk:Augmentative_and_alternative_communication#Rate_enhancement_strategies we're having a reliable sources question (and we probably want high value sources because we're also discussing an FA nomination).
Central question is - are the proceedings of a peer-reviewed conference article (computer science conference) a reliable source? and there's a broader supplemental question which would be - in the field of computer science is there an unusual number of prestigious conferences compared to other fields, and does this affect the relative weight of conferences and journals. The added text specific to the discussion is [1]
Thank you in advance,
Failedwizard ( talk) 07:43, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Tucker454 is unable to see that what he has written on the page under the section "Police scandal" are his opinions and not FACTS that he can attribute to reliable (or any) sources. The comments are libelous.
I have deleted the section three times now. I have asked him to provide attributions. He does not understand what an attribution is.
Perhaps someone else is willing to take a shot at it.
Are Wrestleview.com or LordsofPain.net reliable sources regarding wrestlers? Could they be used for WP:BLP information about them? Jayjg (talk) 00:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Just wondering if there is a guideline regarding the use of fan sites to source information in articles. I am currently reviewing an article ( Talk:Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things/GA1#Reference details) for good status that uses information from fan sites. One source is an interview conducted by the fan site of the writer of a TV series, while another is a FAQ detailing among other things the locations used during filming. I feel that the interview may be alright and the locations not. There is another reference to Suvudu, which I feel could be used, but am not completely sure of. Thanks in advance. AIRcorn (talk) 02:52, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Is the book written by this 19th century gentleman considered primary or secondary source in the field of history? Do you consider it reliable by itself in that field? Kazemita1 ( talk) 05:10, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
"Die Araber stürmten sogleich auf alle Bücher los, nach ihrer Ansicht nur überflüssige oder schädliche Schreibereien; sie zerstörten alle Denkmale der Literatur, so dass kaum die geringsten Bruchstücke zu uns gelangen konnten. Die sogleich eingeführte arabische Sprache verhinderte jede Wiederherstellung dessen, was nationell heißen konnte."
You see, it is not only a collection of poetry. It has a quite magnificent "Notes and Clarifications" section which is the fruit of years of studying Persian history and literature by Goethe.
--
94.182.109.155 (
talk) 18:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter, whether this particular piece of text stems from essay or poetry by Goethe in neither case it is an acceptable source for historic statements. Even if Goethe were an eminent historic scholar of his time (which he was not), his 200 year old claim would not be considered a reliable source.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 20:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
The Parity section of the WP:FRINGE guidelines is a favorite of fringe apologists, who interpret it as carte blanche to use just about any sourcing they please to support OR and SYNTH in articles on fringe topics. It is also misused to present a fringe topic from the in-universe persepective fringe topic in articles on the topic.
I've started a discussion of the talk page of the WP:FRINGE guidelines. This isn't a formal RfC, but a request for open-ended input on the question whether the Parity section needs to be re-worded for clarity. To keep the discussion centralized, please comment on the talk page of the article, here: [ [5]]. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 20:27, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I was looking at the article about Ellie Nesler. There are some factual errors I would like to correct. I have in my personal/professional archives a rather complete set of the actual Court documents. I testified in the matter as an expert. Most of these materials became public during the trial. They are not published anywhere (this was before the www). Is it ok to cite a personal collection or professional archive as a source? There are news accounts, but many are themselves inaccurate ... it was complicated. The primary correction I want to make has to do with the trial outcome and the decision on appeal. Pgm8693 ( talk) 21:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Nesler "fired five shots into Driver's head", that's sourceable to the MSNBC article, but if it weren't sourceable, the simple solution would be to remove it, since anything not sourced is fair game for deletion. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 11:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
In general, Wikipedia discourages links to primary sources such as court documents. WP:BLP states that they should not be used in any biography of a living person specifying in clear language: Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Cheers - find secondary sources for sure. Collect ( talk) 21:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Hey Thanks! to everybody who discussed this. It was useful and interesting, and I think History2007 nailed the answer in the first response: If you let me cite some old Court documents, I'm going to want to reference the letter J. Edgar Hoover sent me about the Occupy Wall Street movement's connection to Occupy Sesame Street agitators. What I realized is that I should just raise the issues on the talk page and see if someone wants to source it. Or I can wait until I have time myself. -- Pgm8693 ( talk) 18:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Done -- Senra ( Talk) 20:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Is the Letters, Samantha (2010) Online Gazetteer of Markets in England and Wales to 1516 a reliable source (as I suspect it is)? This Centre for Metropolitan History web site is linked to by the National Archives in the Markets and Fairs section -- Senra ( Talk) 19:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I mean reliable for a statement such as " Ely has had a market since at least 1224 and fairs were granted from as early as 1189" -- Senra ( Talk) 19:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I have purchased software that I'm trying to re download to a new computer. My code key won't register. I lost all software with the exception of email confirmation. -- 74.175.98.99 ( talk) 20:09, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I have two questions:
Hopefully I explained sufficiently. If not, the discussion thread is here, and the diff in question is here. Thanks. -- Airborne84 ( talk) 18:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I started a discussion in Talk about linking to RSN in citations, for sources which have been challenged and passed by RSN. Discuss there, please. -- Lexein ( talk) 20:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Under dispute is this sentence:
"Although accepted by the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses, a minority does not endorse this doctrine. [ref:] Lee Elder, The Associated Jehovah's Witnesses for Reform on Blood, "Why some Jehovah's Witnesses accept blood and conscientiously reject official Watchtower Society blood policy", Journal of Medical Ethics, 2000, Vol 26, pages 375-380.[/ref]"
At the article's talk page, one side claims that "The source is a peer-reviewed medical journal, which meets Wikipedia standards as a reliable source." The other says that "it was simply an article written by one such person with no proof this minority is in any way significant." Does that article meet WP:RS for that statement? StandFirm ( talk) 23:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
This book: Dempsey, Daniel V, A Tradition of Excellence - Canada's Airshow Team Heritage, High Flight Enterprises, Victoria, BC, 2007, ISBN 978-0-9687817-1-5 is used as an extensive ref in a number of Wikipedia articles, including:
At first glance the book looks reliable. It is over 750 pages long and has over 1800 photos and obviously took a lot of work to compile as it weighs about 20 lbs, being printed on clay paper in full colour. The author was a two-tour pilot with the Snowbirds and former Commanding Officer of the team, so obviously has expertise in the field. However the author is also the publisher and the president of the publishing company, High Flight Enterprises. High Flight's business address is 1174 Sloan Terrace, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, which is a residential address listed to DV and RH Dempsey. The listed editorial staff consists of Vic Johnson, an air force colleague of the author and Ruth Dempsey, the author's spouse. Clearly this work is WP:SPS. The author does not have other non-SPS works in print that I am aware of (but I am pleased to be corrected if this is not right) and so misses WP:USERGENERATED "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". Of further concern, while the massive book does provide a very detailed history of just about every Canadian military flying team throughout history, it is very promotional in tone, has a list of acknowledged people, but no footnotes for sources, minimizes accidents and controversies and, most critically, finishes with a titular chapter that is a clear lobbying effort by the author to convince the public and government decision makers to not disband the Snowbirds and instead procure BAe Hawks for the team, even going so far as to provide paintings of how Hawks would look in Snowbirds livery.
The book contains ringing jacket endorsements from such people as Christopher Terry, President and CEO of the Canadian Science and Technology Museums Corporation, James Boutilier, Professor of Military History and a forward by Fred Sutherland, LGEN (retired), former head of Canada's Air Force and Honorary Colonel of the Snowbirds.
Overall, while this is a very large, and obviously passionately-written book, I am not at all convinced that it meets WP:RS and especially WP:SPS, but I would like to gather some learned opinions here. - Ahunt ( talk) 16:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Without going into the "back story" of this book and intimating personal knowledge, it was originally intended to be published as an authoritative and heavily researched/cited historical work but the economics of the book publishing industry gravitated against this approach in the period in which the manuscript was being created. Other massive failures of the coffee table weight "desk reference" books were testament to a very bleak outlook for the work. With no publishing house behind the book, and with a reluctance to pare it down for a more popular audience in order to find a sympathetic publisher, the heady decision to go into a self-publishing venture was the result. The effort to provide a substantive work met head-on with the economics of producing a massive tone and finding any receptive market/audience. Despite some of the concerns mentioned above, the research that was done was consistent with that of any authoritative work, the author having access to source material that was both unique and reliable. I consider A Tradition of Excellence as a valuable resource and have found it accurate in the limited field in which I work, as all statements that were scrutinized, after comparison, were found to be verifiable. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 17:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC).
The author is also Team Historian for Hawk One and in that position, has been published in various aviation trade journals including AviNation as well as more popular aviation-themed magazines. For example, I have this electronic source: < http://history.aviation.ca/content/view/475/75/> . FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 17:54, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
All good points. I think we have to go back to the intent of not using SPS's. As I see it, the main rationale is meant to minimize problems associated with information accuracy, deception, and POV. Definitely there is a POV issue as you describe (the "lobbying" toward the end of the book), but in general, I would say the book is accurate in the information that's presented, and does not deceive. No doubt there is information left out, such as several accidents, but I don't think this minimizing was intentional. Major crashes are indeed described, however. Most of the book consists of first-hand accounts related by former team members - Dempsey compiled the information - and they seem to remember what they feel is relevant and important to them. Dempsey does not fill in the information gaps except for the historical context (mostly at the beginning of the book). If he did, this tome would not be able to be lifted. Much of the information included in the book is not available elsewhere, and I have to hand it to Dan for the work that he did do. Yes, it has shortcomings, but what book doesn't. Indeed no sources are given except for a long list of acknowledgements, but very few books do, unless they are of a "scholarly" nature. Another point is that, although it is self-published, it is of a quality that it could easily have been published elsewhere. No doubt if the book was published by a publisher other than High Flight Enterprises, it would probably have cut back on the POV issue, but all-in-all I think it is close to a quality that could have been published by a third-party publisher.
So, my opinion is that, yes it is a SPS, but we have to look beyond WP:SPS and look at the intent of the book. It was not written to deceive; it was written to inform and educate, and indeed, most of the book is a compilation of memories provided by others rather than Dempsey himself.
There are lots of authors who are "established experts" who have not previously had their work published by "reliable third-party publications". Should they be penalized?
Just some food for thought.- BC talk to me 19:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Regardless of whether it is "official" history or not of Canada's air demonstration teams, the book remains a very valuable resource and is unmatched by any other resource available. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 00:41, 12 November 2011 (UTC).
Since this material was found originally on the High Flight Enterprises website and no longer exists, all I have is an archival copy of the 2002 reviews and testimonials that accompany the release of the first edition and a fraction of the same for the revised 2007 edition. In perusing the statements, you will note that many were published in other sources such as newspapers, media outlets and websites which I have highlighted. Nonetheless, here is the translated document:
This is the text from the site that provides a number of testimonials regarding the book: A Tradition of Excellence ..."'
Book Reviews & Testimonials A Tradition of Excellence - Canada's Airshow Team Heritage Second Edition - the first reviews are in ...
♦ Amazing stuff, Dan, and congratulations hardly begin to give you the recognition you deserve for this accomplishment. It is magnificent, all the way. Your first 27 pages (of the updated section) just blow me away. Don't miss this one! Former Snowbird Lead, Dan Dempsey, has revised his world-class book A Tradition of Excellence: Canada's Airshow Team Heritage. By far the grandest, most in-depth and magnificently-produced Canadian aviation book ever published, this is a treasure that deserves a place of honour in any aviation fan's library. Full coverage 1918 to 2007 of such great Canadian teams as the Siskins of 1930, the Blue Devils of 1950, such later teams as Gray Ghosts, Golden Hawks and Golden Centennaires, and today's Snowbirds. Many other teams fly across the pages of this astounding publication, whether Canadian or such visitors from abroad as the Red Arrows, Frecci Tricolori, Blue Angels or Thunderbirds. Airshow planes covered include everything from the WWI Fokker D.VII to the Siskin, Seafire, Harvard, Mustang, Vampire, Banshee, Sabre, T-33, CF-100, CF-101, CF-104, Tutor, Musketeer, CF-5, CF-18, Kiowa, even the Argus, Neptune, Tracker and Sea King! Many warbirds (Spitfire, Hurricane, Lancaster, etc.) and other civilian types also pop up as you turn the pages of this masterpiece. Stunning original paintings by the great Peter Mossman and other artists complement the photos, many of which are from the lenses of the world's top aviation photographers. With 1000s of photos and weighing 4 kg, you'll need a sturdy coffee table for this beauty, but you'll revel in every page. Publishing perfectionist that he is, author Dempsey has been sure to include a full appendix, bibliography and index. 766pp, hc, 9.5x12 in. $125.00 CANAV Price $110.00 + $8.50 shipping + GST. (USA US$135pp, Overseas US$165.00pp)Larry Milberry CANAV Books Review August 4, 2007
♦ I would like to congratulate you on your book release ... Great job! The book is interesting and filled with fantastic photographs. Paul Houle Toronto , Ontario September 8, 2007 We've received our book and WOW!! It is definitely going to be one of the most enjoyable reads and keepsakes in our household. My husband is a helicopter pilot and an avid aviation buff. I haven't seen him since the book arrived but know he's hunkered down somewhere in the house. He'll surface every once in a while to show me some pictures and very excitedly explain what he just read. The detail, the history, the pictures! Thanks for sharing this remarkable, well written, well researched documentation of Canadian aerobatics history. Vicki & Phil Clay October 5, 2007
♦ It is a tome of extraordinary information, well written and presented ... it is one of my treasures ... Gerry Gelley Florida October 17, 2007 Wow, what a book! Mark Tibbetts Puslinch, Ontario October 16, 2007
HIGH FLIGHT ENTERPRISES LTD. _________________________________________________ 2 The following book reviews and testimonial messages were received following the publication of the first edition of A Tradition of Excellence - Canada's Airshow Team Heritage: Media Reviews
♦ This is not just a splendid book, it is a spectacular one ... It can only be described as a labour of love, a fastidiously researched and profusely illustrated account of the history of Canadian air force and navy aerobatic teams over the years ... Dr . James A. Boutilier Professor of Military History Veritas Magazine, RMC Club of Canada
♦ Canada's Aviation Blockbuster of the Year - A Spectacular Presentation ... Airforce Magazine ♦ The quality of Dempsey "s book lives up to the Snowbirds" tradition of excellence ... A monumental book sure to gladden the heart of any aircraft buff ... Sidney Allinson, Victoria Times Colonist
♦ Magnificent ... Clearly a labour of love ... Mary Lou Finlay As it Happens - CBC Radio
♦ For aviation enthusiasts, nothing matches the thrill of an airshow: the precision flying, the daring aerobatic manoeuvres and the powerful machinery have drawn thousands of people to Canada's airshows for over 80 years. Of course, the Snowbirds are a household name, but their excellence is drawn from a long tradition of other Canadian teams, from the RCAF's Blue Devils, Golden Hawks and the Golden Centennaires. Former Snowbird Lieutenant Colonel Dan Dempsey's thorough compilation of the history of Canadian air military and civilian teams is collected in 700 pages that are rich in detail of text and enlivened with 1,700 fabulous photographs that make this hefty book a page turner as well as a collector's item ... The Globe and Mail source
♦ It's a wonderful book ... a gap in our history now superbly covered. A Tradition of Excellence is a well-researched, well-written, beautifully illustrated book to delight all those who have, over the past 70 years, thrilled to the flawless aerial ballets at countless airshows. For older readers, it will bring back some stirring memories of fast, noisy aircraft doing incredible things close to the ground. For younger readers, it will be an opportunity to delve into the past to see how the air force established those traditions of airshow excellence ... Bob Merrick, COPA Flight
♦ Outstanding ... Highly recommended to our listeners ... Sterling Faux, Corus Radio Network 3
♦ This book is unarguably the definitive history of Canada's airshow demonstration teams ... Dempsey has left no stone unturned researching this book, and the collective stories are all backed up with hundreds of gorgeous illustrations and photographs ... This book goes a long way towards promoting the continued tradition of aerial demonstration in Canadian aviation and is an essential addition to the library of any Canadian aviation aficionado ... Aviator Magazine
♦ This book was well publicized before hand and a long time coming, but the lengthy gestation period was worth the wait and the results are spectacular. It weighs in at over eight pounds, so strengthen your coffee table. The author is an ex Snowbirds leader and obviously a devotee of excellence in the publishing field as well. The book is well researched, reads well, and is replete with quality images. Photos and avart illustrations abound. For example, there are over two dozen repros of works by nine CAAA members alone, many in large scale format, and an exceptionally fine set of colour profiles by Peter Mossman (some 42, covering 14 pages). The narrative runs from the earliest days of the RCAF up to the present, and much of the knowledgeable commentary is provided by airmen who were part of the numerous teams, and by the solo performers as well. This gives the reader a rare insight into the technical and highly professional side of demonstration flying; it also conveys equally well the immense pride these people took in their work and the emotions of patriotism and camaraderie that inspired them and which still stir memories of what was for many "the best years of our lives". The book was printed by Friesens of Manitoba, and apparently no expense was spared in the production standards. While the price of this opulent offering is necessarily high, it definitely delivers full value for the cost. And, hey, what keen aviation artist wouldn "t gladly forsake a night of fine wining and dining with a companion just to have such a volume in his / her library? In a year of outstanding aviation books, this one stands out most strongly - but don "t waste time in obtaining one, because it is not likely to ever be found on a "remainders" table and is surely destined to become a collector "s item. Don Connolly - Aerial Views Canadian Aviation Artists" Association
♦ Rich in spectacular photography, wonderful illustrations, and detailed research, the book is exceptional in every way. It's a collector's item for young and old alike ... It's no exaggeration to say that Dempsey has done a flawless job in his first book. His enthusiasm, dedication and professionalism shine through on every page. He finishes with an eloquent appeal for the preservation of the Snowbirds and the replacement of the 1960s-vintage Tutors with new aircraft ... The book is an excellent investment. It will provide many hours of enjoyment and a new appreciation of why the Snowbirds and their predecessors should justifiably be regarded as national treasures. Gord McNulty The Hamilton Spectator 4
♦ A Tradition of Excellence Canada's Airshow Team Heritage Reviewed by Mark Proulx 10 "X12" Hard Cover 734 Pages ISBN 0-9687817-0-5
Canada has had a long and proud tradition associated with its military precision aerobatics teams, which began over 80 years ago. In 1919, WW I flying ace LCol. William Barker lead the first public display of formation flying in Toronto using "war trophy" Fokker D. VII 's. Today, Canada's Snowbirds continue to amaze millions of spectators around the world in their 9-ship formation of CT-114 Tutors. This new book, entitled A Tradition of Excellence, brings that history to life as it explores the past. Daniel V. Dempsey, who is uniquely qualified to undertake such a massive task, writes this extensive work. He flew with The Snowbirds in 1980 and 1981 as Snowbird 9, one of the team's two solos. He would go on to lead the team in 1989 and 1990 through their 20th anniversary and 1000th official performance. The book has taken almost six years to complete and is the first work to completely detail scores of Canadian military demonstration teams. To ensure total historical accuracy sources were contacted throughout Canada, the United States and Europe. Countless hours were spent gathering photos, locating and interviewing dozens of former team members about their experiences. The hard cover book, published by High Flight Enterprises, is printed on thick, high quality glossy paper. Slightly more than 700 pages are lavishly illustrated with over 1700 black and white and color photographs, many never before seen. Photos abound of F-86's, CF-101s, CF-104's and CF-5's just to name a few. Peter Mossman, an illustrator from Toronto, Canada, provides the color profiles for 42 different aircraft near the books center section. The profiles are superbly done, depicting each aircraft in their highly polished state, as would be the norm for an airshow aircraft. Many of the aerial manoeuvres are illustrated from such famous groups as the Golden Hawks and Golden Centennaires. Various Snowbird formations have been flown through the years, with each being shown in overhead views. The book includes complete photo coverage of all prints currently completed. 5 This book is a perfect blend of photography and text. The author gives a history of each group chronicled with photos of pilots, groundcrew, squadron crests, patches and aircraft. I am sure that this book will offer months of pleasurable reading as there is so much information supplied to the reader. It contains an extensive listing of each of Canada's military airshow teams. Information includes the years and aircraft flown with serial number, base location and each pilot with their assigned positions. Of course, praise is also given to the ground crews that have kept the Snowbirds flying throughout the years with a listing of each of their names and the duties they performed. I feel confident stating that this book has resulted in the most complete history ever written on Canada's airshow teams. For anyone interested in Canada's flying history or military precision aerobatics in general, this high quality book as an absolute must for your reference library . I highly recommend it without hesitation. Modellers will find the color photos and side 6 profiles extremely helpful. Lieutenant Colonel (Ret'd) Dan Dempsey is to be complimented for undertaking such a huge task and writing a book in what I am sure is a true labour of love. © Mark Proulx 2002, CAHS Journal
Individual Testimonials
♦ Fabulous ... Two days of skimming and now I've got to start reading. I can't imagine the time & effort this has taken. The finest aviation book I've seen ... Congratulations, many times over. Bob Hallowell Comox, British Columbia 25 Oct 2002
♦ What a monster!!! I'm overwhelmed, she's a thing of beauty ... James W. Jones Ottawa, Ontario 28 Oct 2002
♦ Received the "package" today. In a word: WOW!!! Vic Johnson Ottawa, Ontario 28 Oct 2002
♦ The book is truly magnificent!! Congratulations once again on the wonderful achievement represented in "A Tradition of Excellence." FR Sutherland, LGen (Ret'd ) Bath, Ontario 30 Oct 2002
♦ I'm totally blown away at the whole book ... Brilliant effort! Graham Wragg CAHS Gibson's Landing, British Columbia 30 Oct 2002
♦ I received my copy this afternoon and have been scanning through it for the past two hours . It's going to take a lot of reading ... It was well worth the wait. Please accept my congratulations on a superb effort. Ernie Saunders Abbotsford, British Columbia 28 Oct 2002 7
♦ Let me add to, what I am sure, are the many congratulatory messages on your achievement. It really is a magnificent book. It should be compulsory reading for today "s Air Force so they can appreciate what a tradition they have to live up to & realize what it was like to serve in the heyday ... Once again, congratulations on a wonderful achievement. Bill Gladders Comox, British Columbia 26 Oct 2002
♦ Great job Dan! I'm going to have to bring it home from work before I get fired. My boss keeps catching me reading it. I can ' t stop. I'm sure you are glad it's over but it's obvious from the final product that it was a labour of love. JR Roulston Comox, British Columbia 28 Oct 2002
♦ Congratulations, it is a magnificent piece of work - I love it . I can almost smell my cockpit again when looking at all those pictures; and so many that I have never seen before. This is going to give me many happy hours of perusing. It was worth the wait. Tony Brett Royston, British Columbia 29 Oct 2002
♦ All I can say is "Wow" ... I knew it was going to be good but this masterpiece is wonderful by each and every standard. It's such a superb effort ... in keeping with your own "tradition of excellence "BZ! Col Terry Leversedge Ottawa, Ontario 1 Nov 2002 RCAF Official Historian
♦ The book is fantastic beyond my wildest dreams. The depth of the material and wonderful story told is something you must truly be commended for. Never have I seen such a complete work on such a complex subject ... How you managed to do such a great job while still maintaining your flight schedule is beyond me ... Kudos, kudos, kudos on your magnificent work. David O'Malley Ottawa, Ontario 1 Nov 2002
♦ I received my copy of your book in excellent condition. What can I say? You must be feeling a sense of pride and accomplishment. Really well done! Garth Dingman Bath, Ontario 3 Nov 2002 8
♦ Just wanted to send a note to let you know that I received the book and what a book it is. You have done a fantastic job and should be very proud, it will be something I treasure forever ... Wade Konecsni Manotick, Ontario 4 Nov 2002
♦ Received my copy a couple of hours ago and haven't been able to put it down. It is superb. Even with the rave pre-publication comments I had received from people such as Dave O'Malley, it is still more than I expected. You can be justifiably proud of your work. Russell Bennett Halifax, Nova Scotia 4 Nov 2002
♦ Wow! What a fantastic book ... It took a few evenings just to work through the pictures. Now I am starting on the narrative. It is obvious so far that it was a labour of love for you. Kevin Psutka, COPA Flight Ottawa, Ontario 5 Nov 2002
♦ We received your book today. We dropped everything and sat down to leaf through it and before we knew it 2 hours had passed. It is absolutely awesome ... the pictures are fabulous ... What a monumental achievement. .. You and Ruth must be so proud of this valuable resource which you have so cleverly and beautifully put together. Every aviation enthusiast must have this marvellous book. Congratulations ... Rich & Jay Thistle (Aviation Historian and renown Aviation artist) Rich Thistle website Wasaga Beach, Ontario 5 Nov 2002
♦ Have received and reviewed what can only be described as the most fantastic tome of aviation history that I have had the privilege to own. I attended a mess dinner last night at the RCAF Mess and it was the topic of discussion from the top down. Dave Thom Manotick, Ontario 6 Nov 2002
♦ You have done an outstanding, fantastic, incredible job on the book. I can't believe the amount of research you must have done. When did you find time to do anything else in 7 years? You must have needed a huge staff as proof readers, layouts etc. (I'm sure your wife must have been a part of this work). There are so many names of old jocks I have known. Sure brings back a lot of memories of the good times and achievements. I never realized there were so many aero and demo teams in existence over the years ... Again congratulations on a magnificent job. There will be a lot of reading and reminiscing this winter. Thanks for the memories ... Chuck Keating Red Deer, Alberta, 6 Nov 2002 9
♦ Words fail me ... You have set a new standard Dan. There is NOTHING like this in existence. Anywhere. Period ... Please accept my most sincere congratulations on an absolutely magnificent accomplishment. Christopher J. Terry, President & CEO Canada Science and Technology Museum Corporation Ottawa, Canada. 8 November 2002
♦ Congratulations Dan - A truly magnificent book. Jack Phillips, White Rock, British Columbia 9 Nov 2002
FWiW, I have probably neglected to mention that I am also an accredited Official RCAF Historian. Bzuk ( talk) 12:19, 13 November 2011 (UTC).
Foreward by Lieutenant General Fred R. Sutherland, CMM, CD. Honorary Colonel - 431 Air Demonstration Squadron
"Now look straight ahead for the nine twinkling lights as the Team Lead calls for the Snowbirds to check in." With these words, the ensuing pull-up of the 'trademark' nine-plane formation and the stirring sounds of Steven Vitali's musical tribute, In Flight, another Snowbird show begins.
For the next 30 minutes, audiences ranging in size from a few hundred in Canada's Far North, to several hundred thousand at other major showsites across Canada and the United States, will be treated to a display of aerial skill and professionalism by Canada's world famous air demonstration team. The show is, in every sense of the word, a virtual aerial ballet, choreographed with a precision in time and space that knows few equals.
Members of today's Snowbird team shoulder a significant responsibility - one which is subliminal, and thus unspoken, but which is very real. That responsibility is threefold. First, it is to execute the team's primary mission - specifically to demonstrate the professionalism of each member of the Canadian Forces. Second, it is one of 'stewardship,' that is, to maintain the very high reputation established by all those aircrew and groundcrew members who have preceded them in the team's proud history. Finally, it is to preserve the 'tradition of excellence' established by such eminent predecessors as the Siskins, Blue Devils, Golden Hawks and Golden Centennaires in a legacy that dates back over eight decades in Canada. Even today, these teams still evoke powerful memories from those fortunate enough to have seen them fly - each of them an integral part of Canada's proud aviation heritage.
Through his book, Dan Dempsey makes an invaluable contribution to the preservation of this 'tradition of excellence.' Only someone who has been there and who has established such credibility within the airshow team community, both past and present, could have elicited so many rich first-hand accounts of their experiences from members of that unique fraternity. Coupled with outstanding collections of photographs and art work, this book provides a truly superb chronicle of the distinguished history and proud legacy of Canada's aerial demonstration teams.
This wonderful book must and will serve as a constant and vivid reminder, to both the people of Canada and to our country's civilian and military decision makers, that the Snowbirds are the visible and very popular custodians of our airshow heritage. By discharging their role with such singular excellence during their 32-year history, and by touching millions of lives in such a positive way, they have become, in every sense of the word, a national treasure - a treasure which simply must be preserved for future generations of Canadians to see.
F.R. Sutherland, CMM, CD Lieutenant-General (Ret'd) Honorary Colonel 431 (AD) Sqn ♦ Received the book today - truly magnificent!! The CD Rom simply can't do it justice. F.R. Sutherland LGen (Ret’d), Bath, Ontario, 30 Oct 2002. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 13:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC).
... and further, the author has been a contributor to academic and trade journals as a historian, and fulfills that role with a flight team, historical association and private museum/collection. The above statements are examples of the book being reviewed by independent and reputable media and history-based sources, and should not be considered "irrelevant"; rather, they fulfill the requirement of having a peer review.
At the same time, one of the aspects that is missing in an academic work is the documentation which likely exists but is not provided within the book (likely because of a choice of limiting the already large amount of text rather than choosing to create a popular-vein approach or worse, having a less than authentic account). The other aspect that is present is a perceived "boosterism" for the home team.
Given the excellent points already raised, is A Tradition of Excellence: Canada's Airshow Team Heritage accurate? Difficult to assess by outsiders, but "insiders" conclude that it is an accurate historical record of Canada's air teams. Was it written by an experte or knowledgeable subject matter specialist? Yes Was due care and academic standards met? Yes and no here, as the attributable reference sources are not present but in many cases, can be verified by other sources. Is it a valuable resource? Again, yes for most of the "curate's egg" but obviously, the other part of the "curate's egg" is inclusion of opinions by the author that must be tempered by a more jaundiced view of having a lobbying effort appear within an otherwise, historical treatise. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 16:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC).
This discussion seems to have come to an end, so I thought I would summarize it before it gets archived. In re-reading all the comments it seems that the general consensus is that this book can be used as a source for factual information, but, because of its self-published nature and unabashed Snowbirds lobbying, should not be used for opinion or mistaken for an objective academic-style history book. Please do correct me if anyone thinks this is not an accurate summary. - Ahunt ( talk) 20:59, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Is Genocide Watch a suitable source for including one of their statements in a BLP? Do goverments and other civil society organisations pay serious attention to what Genocide Wach has to say or is it a fringe organisation with little credibility? A statement by the organisation is being used in Julius Malema#Genocide Watch Place South Africa at Stage 6 on Countries at Risk Chart. In the light of the strict sourcing rules regarding negative information in BLPs, I'm not sure if the section should be in the article. The subject of the BLP is currently a hot topic in South Africa. Roger ( talk) 09:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
(I originally asked this over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Psychology)
What's the procedure for dealing with sources that become dubious? Are any of our articles affected by this (alleged) data manipulation?
( University of Tilburg report, Science Magazine article via The Chronicle of Higher Education via Reddit) -- Lexein ( talk) 19:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Is this site reliable for its South Park reviews?
Someone has used his book in this article as the main source of book burning by Arabs in Persia. This is while besides being a primary source, the translator of this book to English Dr. Franz Rosenthal, calls this story a legend here
Is it acceptable as a reliable source?-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 04:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I am currently having an issue getting this direct quote in to the Weston Price article:
In his 1939 Nutrition and Physical Degeneration book Price made one passing comment about his 1923 work:
In my search for the cause of degeneration of the human face and the dental organs I have been unable to find an approach to the problem through the study of affected individuals and diseased tissues. In my two volume work on "Dental Infections," Volume I, entitled "Dental Infections, Oral and Systemic," and Volume II, entitled "Dental Infections and the Degenerative Diseases," (PRICE, W. A. Dental Infections, Oral and Systemic. Cleveland, Penton, 1923) I reviewed at length the researches that I had conducted to throw light on this problem. The evidence seemed to indicate clearly that the forces that were at work were not to be found in the diseased tissues, but that the undesirable conditions were the result of the absence of something, rather than of the presence of something. This strongly indicated the need for finding groups of individuals so physically perfect that they could be used as controls. In order to discover them, I determined to search out primitive racial stocks that were free from the degenerative processes with which we are concerned in order to note what they have that we do not have."
(Price, Weston (1939) Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: A Comparison of Primitive and Modern Diets and Their Effects Paul B. Hoeber, Inc; Medical Book Department of Harper & Brothers)
Several things here:
First, given Price had to vet through Paul B. Hoeber, Inc; Medical Book Department of Harper & Brothers is the source reliable regarding Price's own view of Dental Infections and the Degenerative Diseases?
Second, just where does the work as a whole fall? Secondary source because it was vetted through Paul B. Hoeber, Inc; Medical Book Department of Harper & Brothers or a Primary source because it was written by Price? (See Princeton University's classification of What is a Primary Source?)
Third, even if the passage itself qualifies as a Primary source is it reliable regarding Price's own view of his earlier 1923 work?
Right now I am going for reliability not NPOV so don't waste our time with that. Once the RS of this source is confirmed or denied we can work on the NPOV issues.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 10:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
It might be helpful to make a list of all the discussions on this, so we're not wasting time. -- Ronz ( talk) 21:39, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
There is an argument about whether a blog on newsbusters.org is a reliable source to claim that Muller admitted believing in man-made global warming at least as far back as the early 1980. Here is the blog [6]. Here is the section of interest Richard_A._Muller#Hockey_stick_graph_controversy. Here is the diff of the addition [7]. IRWolfie- ( talk) 12:32, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I am going to make a strong claim on why these sources are reliable.
Now lets talk about what kind of sources could establish notablility for an electronic sports player.
Is it possible for an experience source checker to look into this? Thank You.
Redefining history (
talk) 04:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Wheres Dan ( talk · contribs) seems to have a faulty understanding of WP:RS and WP:VERIFY if I understand what he's said at Talk:Tribe of Dan correctly (also see his talk page). Here [9] he insists he can use [10] which is a "Third grade text-book in the Lutheran graded system for intermediate Sunday-schools". I'll let him know I've raised this issue. Dougweller ( talk) 21:34, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
LNot actually ludicrous as a claim, howevewr. See the 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia [11] 31:6) to work with Bezaleel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, in the construction of the Tabernacle (ib. xxxv. 34; xxxvi. 1, 2). Oholiab was "an engraver, and a cunning workman, and an embroiderer in blue, and in purple, and in scarlet, and fine linen" (ib. xxxviii. 23). E. G. H, and a bunch of Masonic and Catholic cites as well. Is there a reason for deeming this contentious in some way? Cheers. Collect ( talk) 22:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
In this edit I added a print source regarding the master of RMS Titanic's delivery voyage. An editor reverted it, describing the addition as "vandalism". I reinstated it, with a quote, here. Contributor removed it again, describing it as an "obvious error". Requesting an assessment of the validity of the print source, please.
Previous talk page discussion here—the contributor explains that he/she has been "...studying the disaster on my own as a hobby since the Titanic was discovered in 1985, I've learned never to trust or take for granted any information as fact...". It seems from this that the print source is challenged only from the contributor's original research.
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 18:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Undeadly is a news site with extensive coverage of OpenBSD, its developers and related projects. As I write on OpenBSD-related projects, I would like to know, does Undeadly on its own count as a reliable source in terms of WP:RS. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 15:04, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I have never posted here before so please excuse any deviation from proper procedure. It would be inadvertent.
1.Questioned Text:
Ou, George; New tools to combat thieves online;Daily Caller 10/25/2011
2. http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/25/new-tools-to-combat-thieves-online/
3. Appears in Protect IP Act
4. Context:
Five Internet engineers, Steve Crocker, David Dagon, Dan Kaminsky, Danny McPherson and Paul Vixie have prepared a whitepaper[34] suggesting that the DNS filtering provisions in the bill "raise serious technical and security concerns" and would "break the Internet", while other engineers and proponents of the act have called those concerns groundless and without merit.[35][36][37][38][39][40]
By the way
The footnotes in that paragraph link, in the following order, to:
http://www.circleid.com/pdf/PROTECT-IP-Technical-Whitepaper-Final.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/59599226/Debunking-DNS-Filtering-Concerns
http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/25/new-tools-to-combat-thieves-online/
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/393667/engineers_protect_ip_act_would_break_dns/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/dns-filtering/#more-26745
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20069824-281/protect-ip-copyright-bill-faces-growing-criticism/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/18/opinion/l18internet.html?_r=2
Thank you for your thoughts. Elinruby ( talk) 16:50, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
A kind user ( 66.183.40.56) recently contributed edits to several dozen articles to provide ridership numbers on the Vancouver transit system. It is the Passengers (2009) statistic in each of those articles' info boxes that is in question here. These are relevant and useful contributions to the articles. Unfortunately, I struggle to verify these facts due to the complex procedure required to do so. The user offers the verification instructions on their talk page. I have a couple of questions, and would like to hear others' thoughts.
Hoping to find a way for the new facts to remain in the articles, so appreciate any insight or suggestions... -- Ds13 ( talk) 18:12, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
"
Fare evasion on SkyTrain and Canada Line" Vancouver Sun provides: cskelton [pseudonym] (2010 Nov 7, 02:42 pm)
Fare Paid - Ross.twbx (Tableaux Public data file) using within Tableaux Public Data="Matched (Fare Paid by Skytrain Station - Matched.xlsx)"; Dimension added to sheet "Abc Station"; Measure added to sheet "Boardings 2009"; The simple calculated sum Boardings 2009 is 78,845,243.
--— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Fifelfoo (
talk •
contribs) 00:49, 17 November 2011 "
Fare evasion on SkyTrain and Canada Line" Vancouver Sun provides: cskelton [pseudonym] (2010 Nov 7, 02:42 pm)
"Fare Paid - Ross.twbx" (Tableaux Public data file) used within
Tableau Public; Data="Fare Paid by Skytrain Station - Matched.xlsx"; Dimensions "Abc Station" added to sheet; Measures "Boardings 2009" added to sheet; The simple calculated sum "Boardings 2009" is 78,845,243.
--
Lexein (
talk) 01:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)How do people see blogs at The Economist? For example, can this be used as a source?
Also, what about opinion pieces such as this in say The New York Times or other major newspapers? Be——Critical 20:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Can you tell me about this source? As far as I can tell, it is in the name of Forbes, by a staff writer, but not really designated as an opinion piece. Can factual information for WP be drawn from the following quote?
Since 2008, national unemployment rates have remained above 9% with much higher rates for African Americans and youth—16% and 24.6% respectively. An estimated 10.4 million mortgages could default this year. Income inequality, with concentrated wealth at the top and flat incomes or impoverishment for the vast majority of the country’s population, has increased precipitously since the 1960s. The well known facts are worth reciting again: the top one percent of the country owns 34.6% of the wealth in total net worth; the next 19% owns 50.5%; the bottom 80% owns 15%. In financial wealth, the figures are even more startling: 42.7%, 50.3%, and 7.0% respectively. And these statistics from UC-Santa Barbara Sociology Professor G. William Domhoff are from 2007, the most recent complete data available for analysis. Domhoff cites economist Edward Wolff, who concludes that the Great Recession has meant a whopping drop of 36.1% in median household wealth as compared to 11.1% for the top one percent, further widening the gulf between the obscenely rich and the rest of us—the 99%.
(more source links in original) Be——Critical 22:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Is http://www.frogkick.nl/ a reliable source for an encyclopedic description of scuba gear configuration?
Any outside opinions would be most welcome. -- RexxS ( talk) 14:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Is the Guardian datablog a reliable source for statements of fact in Wikipedia, if posted by a Guardian news editor? I'm talking about data points, not opinions. Be——Critical 06:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Is Marlborough News considered to be reliable? They abide by the editors code of practice and The Press Complaints Commission so would appear to be perfectly acceptable, though an IP editor on the Rachel Reeves article claims the site is a blog. Their site is here: http://www.marlboroughnewsonline.co.uk/about-us
http://hamraaz.org/ as a source for accurate research on Indian music? Shahid • Talk2me 10:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Are the reviews on this website reliable/notable enough to be added to articles on artistic works like Habibi? Of the 17 contributors listed under "Contributors" on that site, two have their own Wikipedia articles, Marguerite Van Cook and James Romberger. But Nadim Damluji, the author of the review of Habibi that one editor added to the Habibi article, is not. Is it acceptable? Nightscream ( talk) 19:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Just came across this publication [14] being used as a source in George McConnell Davison. It's the first source and is supporting a highly flattering quote in the lead. Reading the article, and browsing some of the rest of the publication, it looks like a PR piece which doesn't necessarily make it "unreliable" per se, just not "independent of the subject of the article". Anyone got any info on this publication? GDallimore ( Talk) 17:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
This a Spanish-language site. [15] While I was searching for an album (Bachata Rosa), I've come across forums that claim that the album was certified 7x in Spain, but since forums are user-generated content, I've searched through Google to look for a reliable source that can verify the claim. The above site was the only one I could find and it sources Los 40 Principales as the source of the certifications for those albums, but I do not know it is legitimate to use it. Erick ( talk) 21:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Another one of those "I seriously can't believe I'm making this thread, but the opinions of others compel me to..." threads...
Is Time magazine a reliable source? Users at Talk:Catholicism and abortion claim that it cannot be used in a paragraph on comments made by the Pope in 2007 because it is not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church, describing opinions other than the official RCC hierarchy opinion as those of "random other people," and that instead of including its interpretation of events (that this statement applies to pro-choice Catholic politicians generally) as we are specifically asked to do by WP:PRIMARY, we should instead include only the pope's quote (which these users wish to interpret to suggest that it only refers to a few specific politicians). Incidentally, the AP source that they left in also discusses the statement's broader relevance (as do the NYT, etc.), which however appears nowhere in the version to which these users reverted.
It's also worth mentioning that one of these users removed the source to make a point about my removing an anti-abortion advocacy website, but I thought I'd assume good faith and bring it here as though it were a real dispute.
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 19:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
It looks to me in this case that Time has not made a misinterpretation of any quote. I has made what appears to be a fairly straightforward interpretation of the words "they are excommunicated". The article does also include the view of a Vatican spokesperson that the words should not be taken to mean that anyone was excommunicated. It seem clear to me that the Pope mis-spoke on this occasion. It probably doesn't reflect the official position of Roman Catholicism, but the fact that it was said by the Pope is probably noteworthy for inclusion in the article, with clarification if and as appropriate. -- FormerIP ( talk) 20:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
"Do you agree with the excommunications given to legislators in Mexico City on the question?" a reporter asked. "Yes. The excommunication was not something arbitrary. It is part of the (canon law) code. It is based simply on the principle that the killing of an innocent human child is incompatible with going in Communion with the body of Christ. Thus, they (the bishops) didn't do anything new or anything surprising. Or arbitrary."
Could people share their opinions on whether the following sources are to be considered RS for information on the family background of John of Damascus? More information on the crux of the dispute can be found in the discussion on the talk page at Talk:John of Damascus#sources on his origins.
A edit war has been going on for sometime at Moor see [16] (not involving this editor - for once). The area of principle disagreement is with this statement. " Moors" are not a distinct or self-defined people. Medieval and early modern Europeans applied the name primarily to Berbers, but also at various times to Arabs, Muslim Iberians and West Africans from Mali and Niger who had been absorbed into the Almoravid dynasty (section in bold) is the area of dispute the reference being given is Ivan Van Sertima and the book [17] also Amazon Book. Some have noted that Van Sertima is not an expert on Moorish history (due to other non-related historical mistakes he made) but I think the real question is can that particular opinion from him be trusted for inclusion? Is it so radical that merits a Fringe notice or is it acceptable? I will wait for feedback b4 i give my opinion.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 07:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source for claiming that Mount Hermon is in Israel? nableezy - 19:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Does this website qualify RS?
Joyson Noel Holla at me! 14:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
A number of facts at KAI T-50 Golden Eagle have been referenced using images of display boards taken at an exhibition. These images have been hosted on blogs and image hosts then used as a source for the information. Are images of display material a reliable source, and if they are can we link to blogs and image hosts as references? I presume they cant be uploaded to wikipedia as they would probably be copyrighted material, thanks. MilborneOne ( talk) 15:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
It should be duly noted that these display boards pertaining to T-50 have been set up by the manufacturers of T-50 itself (or its components) in some of the largest aerospace exhibitions and air shows in the country, such as the ADEX. I'll provide some example images here:
F-50 proposed next-generation fighter: http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL085/upload/2007/07/f-50_1.jpg
Flightglobal news on KAI's proposal of an F-50 variant: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/south-korea-gets-t-50-work-as-kai-studies-fighter-variant-169416/
Weapons fit for armed T-50 variants:
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL105/upload/2005/10/A-50%20%B9%AB%C0%E5%20%281%29_1.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL105/upload/2005/10/A-50%20%B9%AB%C0%E5%20%284%29_1.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10040/upfile/201009/20100925140812_2.jpg
Supplementary DefenseIndustryDaily news on FA-50's weapons fit: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/koreas-t-50-spreads-its-wings-04004/
Avionics components for T-50, and their manufacturers: http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=cutysio&logNo=40127916907&viewDate=¤tPage=1&listtype=0
Website of the event's host: http://www.rndkorea.or.kr/
I've already known for a long time that 'blogs' are deemed unreliable sources in Wikipedia if they are used as direct references. But I'm not directly referring to blogs to verify some important information regarding T-50, such as proposed variants, armaments, and component producers; I only want to refer to the legitimate exhibition materials made and presented by manufacturers regarding T-50 design proposals, armament specifications, components content, etc., and I'd totally do I way with blogs whenever I could; it's just that there are no convenient way I can see of showing these materials in Wikipedia unless by using image hosting sites, which could sometimes be blogs. I'm of the opinion that we should find a mutually agreed means to rate the credibility of these exhibition materials not by the blog nature of the image hosting site but by who made and presented them (KAI, Lockheed Martin, MDS Technology, etc), and where they were hosted (the biannual ADEX, or other regular technology R&D accomplishment exhibition, etc). The direct attribution should be given to the manufacturers themselves who made and presented the exhibition materials, and to the hosts of such official exhibition events, but as I've said, I myself have found no way of linking Wikipedia to these materials unless I use image hosting sites. A small suggestion to the OP: maybe instead of preemptively accusing me of being purposefully disruptive and deleting what I intend to be good faith edits without even discussing the matter with the community first, you can actually help me get the exhibition materials properly attributed to their creators (the manufacturers themselves) and their hosts (Ministry of Knowledge and Economy and other government branches) by suggesting alternatives to blogs and other unrelated commercial sites for image hosting. Desagwan ( talk) 16:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I think images like the T-50 avionics operating system having the IEEE POSIX certification and who produces what is not really aimed at advertisement; they are merely stating educational facts about T-50 to an audience that's unlikely to ever personally buy T-50's avionics components, kinda like museum exhibitions (are museums going to be considered unreliable sources, then?). Your concern about the potential advertising nature of the display boards in other exhibitions like ADEX has its merit, though I tend to think that if KAI really thought its T-50 couldn't deliver the capabilities that it says it could (like F-50 having next-generational capabilities compared to present T-50, if developed), it wouldn't have exhibited the models and display boards in such a blatant and outright way (which will have severe ethical implications should the claims prove false) to such a large audience in one of the biggest aerospace exhibitions in the world. I think KAI, as the largest and flagship aerospace company in Korea, has plenty of obligations to state facts about their aircraft in such an important PR event where the business-ethical image of the company itself (and perhaps of Korea's entire aerospace industry) may be directly at stake. In any case, the claims made in the images over time were proven by secondary non-manufacturer sources (some even before, like the existence of F-50 by Flightglobal and by others if we search long enough), but this article's editorial progress is so slow due to the small number of editors dedicated to T-50, with only a few select people like me (perhaps only me, at this moment) to process the disproportionately large amount of information and defend the editions made against an outnumbering opposing side, and such slow dissemination of information about T-50 can sometimes sow unnecessary disputes about T-50's capabilities, design, service history, etc that otherwise doesn't need to exist (like how some readers couldn't accept that FA-50, in fact, can be comparable to other fighters like F-16, Saab Gripen; we also have much simpler disputes about the different looks between T-50, T-50B, and TA-50, as well as their ID). Desagwan ( talk) 04:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I am Jewish and the mother of 4 children. One of my children was in a private school which approached my husband and me with the name of Marina von Prutzmann ...they wanted her to come and live with us. I did not know how to rsearch the family of this girl and accepted her in the summer of 1975 for the coming school year. She was 16. She did nothing wrong in our house but our children did not "take" to her and she was hard on the people of German extraction in Milwaukee.... saying things to their faces such as, "My that is a funny German name...." and thus displaying an arrogant attitude on the part of a genuine German to a transplanted one whose famiy probably had been in the US for at least 100 years at that point... and may have come to the USA as poor people with peasant type names. Because of her standoffishness, I wrote to her parents and said that she really was not adapting well and either that the school had to place her elsewhere in the USA or in Milwaukee OR she had to go home. THey asked to meet us in Holland and I met General Von Prutzmann's eldest son, who never saw his father after he went to war. The son was a fine man with a terrific limp; he had suffered a deep injury. He was married to a beautiful woman, Marina's mother. It was Marina's mother who said, "Oh the General never fought against the USA, he fought on the Eastern Front with the Waffen SS." As if fighting on the Eastern front made his efforts part of a different war. I said, "My son found out he was in Riga as a leader." "Oh, yes by that time in Latvia, he held a high position. Very high," she said, "but still he never fought with the western armies." My husband said, "The Russians by that time had ceased being your allies and had become ours. It was the same war and it was not supposed to be fought against civilians." "They needed food..... " and we decided to stop talking about it. I later found out how he was the head of the ghetto-concentration camp in Riga which was infamous after a while for the mass murders performed there and at Baba Yar.
The son was a kind man who made no defense for his father. He just loved him and missed him as a child. The son was terribly affected by everything in his past. His wife was not, and Marina not at all. There is a possibility that at 16 she was just acting up in our house and 'acting out' as they say today... prehaps because she could not do so at home. Certainly she talked about there being fewer opportunities to go to University in Germany than there were in the USA because there were no gradations of qualities in the colleges there. Either you qualified or you did not. So I think she may have been thinking of taking her University training in the USA and was nervous about suggesting this path to her parents. She left out house without finishing out the year; I do not know what happened to any of her family. I could not pursue the relationship not only because of the grandfather and his crimes but also because the only person I was comfortable with was the son and that would have been improper in those days. Perhaps today if a friendship developed between the wife of one man and the husband of another woman it could flourish but in those days, for me at any rate such a friendship would have not been acceptable..... putting aside the history of the German or Jewish heritage or if I were American or not.... just the factors of his being married to a woman and me being the wife of someone else... we could not develop the friendship we both felt. Last night on the Military Channel I saw the photos of Riga and the filling of the Ghetto, pictures of the previous 10,000 practice murders and then the 30,000 at Baba Yar and got upset all over again. How on earth could a general like that have such a fine son.....somethings are not given to us to understand. I hope this is helpful to those studying the subject of Gen. Von Pruztmann and his participation in RIGA in 1941 or so. He was there. He fought the eastern front.... which is the same as fighting in the west. It was the same war. Goldie Kossow age 73 American born — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.9.20.82 ( talk)
The UK news/satire magazine Private_Eye has fairly recently starting putting stories on it's website - for example [19], and so I suspect that wikipedia is likely to find a lot more citations pointing to private-eye. I think it would be sensible to get consensus on the reliability of such citations (personally I believe them to be as valid as any other newspaper website) before, rather than after. (there's been some previous chat about citing the paper version at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_27#UK_news_magazine_Private_Eye).
Are people happy with this as a source?
Failedwizard ( talk) 11:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I've just edited a page in passing called Maghoh is the Reference section acceptable? Apart from the very old EB1911 entry the only other link does not work and there are no translations on the the talk page. I also looked at the first entry in the See also section it too has what I would consider to be similar problems. -- PBS ( talk) 05:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Adnan Oktar ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
An IP requested the deletion of certain material in the Oktar article cited to the above source ( [20]). I looked at the article material and the source and tended to agree with the IP that the source is not a reliable source for the assertion, but I also felt it wasn't a reliable source period. Then, I noticed that the article cites the source 16 times! So, I could remove the material the IP objects to, but it wouldn't solve the continuous sourcing to something that describes itself as "the London based magazine of the Rationalist Association" that "has distinguished itself as a world leader in supporting and promoting humanism and rational inquiry and opposing religious dogma, irrationalism and bunkum wherever it is found."
Does anyone have any comments on whether the source can be used for anything, or is it necessary to analyze each assertion in the WP article? By the way, the WP article cites to just one article at the source's website, which is essentially an attack piece.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 01:16, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
this site is used on hundreds of articles, as far as I can tell it's simply user-generated content and not a RS - anyone come across it. -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 12:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I asked this 2 months ago, and didn't get any response then so will try rewording it in order to improve the article in question I would appreciate knowing if forgetomori.com would be a reliable source for the following statements in Modern man at 1941 bridge opening.
Further research suggests that the modern appearance of the man may not have been so modern. The style of sunglasses first appeared in the 1920s, and in fact Barbara Stanwyck can be seen wearing a similar pair in the film Double Indemnity three years later. On first glance the man is taken by many to be wearing a modern printed T-shirt, but on closer inspection it seems to be a sweater with a sewn-on emblem, the kind of clothing often worn by sports teams of the period. The remainder of his clothing would appear to have been available at the time, though his clothes are far more casual than those worn by the other individuals in the photograph.
and
Debate centers on whether the image genuinely shows a time traveler, has been photomanipulated, or is simply being mistaken as anachronistic.
Forgetomori does appear to be self published, but has been cited as reliable by magazines and journals on both sides of the Pseudo Science debate. More importantly Knowyourmeme cites it as an important source in both debunking the myth and bringing it to wider public attention, and Fortean Times (normally regarded as an RS, but used with care) not only cites forgetomori but repeats the conclusions that forgetomori draws (issue 263, May 2010, "Future Imperfect", Bob Rickard). Finally a published research paper into the myth (Harkness, D., et al., The Mystery of the "1940s Time Traveller": The Changing Face of Online Brand Monitoring. In J. Trant and D. Bearman [eds]. Museums and the Web 2011: Proceedings. Toronto: Archives & Museum Informatics. Published March 31, 2011. Consulted March 31, 2011.) specifically cites Forgetomori as authoritative about the subject in question. From this I would consider that the site is considered expert per the allowances of the self published sources section of Verifiability. The source is only being used to reference the fact that the items regarded as anachronistic in the my dthid actually exist at the time, it does this by citing primary sources from the period which we cannot directly use without engaging in original research and we repeat no hard (fringe or otherwise) conclusions about the case from forgetomori. So can it be considered reliable for this purpose? Stuart.Jamieson ( talk) 14:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
In our article CETI Patterson Power Cell, a claim that " George H. Miley has conducted research on nuclear transmutations in thin films of metals, including thin films in the Patterson Power Cell" is being cited by this source: [21]. I do not think this is a valid citation because infinite-energy.com isn't the sort of mainstream peer-reviewed scientific journal one would require to validate claims of "nuclear transmutations". It looks to me to be an attempt to use the article on the Patterson Cell (which seems only to have survived deletion back in 2007 because it received media attention - see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/CETI_Patterson_Power_Cell) as a coatrack for Miley's research. While Miley may well be a notable physicist in Wikipedia terms, that is no reason to attach undue credibility to particular research he may well have engaged in, but which has not been published in sources of merit. In particular, we should not be asserting that he (and Patterson) have achieved cold fusion or the like - extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 02:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
A reliable source mentioning that Miley did work on the Patterson cell would be "What if cold fusion is real?" by Charles Platt (Wired Nov 1998) [23] -- POVbrigand ( talk) 18:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
In an attempt to impress the !voters at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CETI Patterson Power Cell (2nd nomination) the article has become stuffed overnight with citations to what may be characterised as "doubtful" sources. In an effort to remove any doubt, would contributors please indicate whether the following sources are reliable? I've appended some sample text of what is being claimed:
There's another dozen or more listed at Talk:CETI Patterson Power Cell#Importance of reliable sourcing and verifiability if anybody has the strength to examine those as well. -- RexxS ( talk) 10:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, im currently reveiwing Love, Blactually and would like to know if a couple of the sources currently in the article are reliable. Hope its okay, thanks;
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)Once again- Thanks Mayhem Mario 19:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Are old (circa 1924) United States passports normally available for verification? An editor uses an old passport as source for biographical information in Haviland H. Lund, but doesn't answer when I ask him where this passport can be checked. [25] So is such information available somewhere? Fram ( talk) 15:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I remember seeing in this noticeboard, people talking about pre-Ranke history books (who do not meet his standard definition) as primary source and not secondary. I wonder if this classification is just an inside-wiki thing or there are actually scholarly sources supporting it. Your consideration is appreciated. Kazemita1 ( talk) 19:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Is this wired 1998 article reliable for the figure of $2 million dollars spent on research of the CETI_Patterson_Power_Cell that is mentioned? Considering the wired article author met the owner etc in the way mentioned is it still an independent source? Much of the article is written about their face to face meetings and the tours he was given. [26]. IRWolfie- ( talk) 20:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Here's a good one. There's been an ongoing fight at Demi Moore regarding her birth name. Multiple reliable sources (three mainstream newspapers and People Magazine) state that her birth name was Demetria Guynes. Another editor says that Moore's Twitter feed is a reliable source and since it's (allegedly) her, and the feed says that "Demi is her full name" (not that it doesn't say her birth name wasn't Demetria), that this means her birth name was not Demetria and that the WP:RSes should be ignored. I've been threatened with being taken before the BLPN noticeboard. So, what say you? Is a Twitter feed considered a reliable source? Is it more reliable than the established mainstream press? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 21:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
This is already being discussed at WP:BLPN - it is inappropriate to carry on two different conversations on the same subject. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 22:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to learn whether
the document made by Norwegian National Television [NRK] (
[27],
[28]) dedicated to scholars each having own page at Wikipedia (
Fred Hoyle,
Halton Arp,
Geoffrey Burbidge,
Margaret Burbidge,
Jayant Narlikar,
Hermann Bondi,
Eric Lerner,
John Dobson (amateur astronomer),
M. Lopez-Corredoira scholars from
Los Alamos National Laboratory such as
Anthony L. Peratt, Ph.D, including some Nobel Price winner(s)
Karry Mullis,
Irving Langmuir is regarded for reliable source or not.
Norwegian National Televised Broadcast of Universe The Cosmology Quest. Episode 1: 15 March and 21 March; Episode 2: 22 March and 28 March 2004.
Please advise.
Contested edit:
[29]
The part relevant for this inquiry:
Last sentence in the given edit.
Discussion:
[30]
Thanks
--
Stephfo (
talk) 23:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
NOTE: This user has been topic banned from editing in this subject area. Warning issued Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 23:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Just to let you know. After talking to an informed source via Derek Gallegos( band manager), After Midnight Project has been disbanded.
Are either of these reliable for the article on the UK social stereotype?
I'm saying not, given that there are many sources in the mainstream press and also some academic sources, but someone disagrees suggested it be raised here. Many thanks for further opinions. Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
There has been a kerfuffle at Yui (singer) over reliable sources concerning the individual's legal name. There are no reliable sources in the subject's native language (Japanese) that suggest that she has a publicly known surname or that we have the written Japanese form (kanji) of her legal name.
This has not stopped some editors from using English, French, and German language sources (including the AP and French Cosmo) as citations for this alleged surname, and this has not stopped them from assuming that a Japanese tabloid that published a primary school yearbook photo with this name written in Japanese is also a reliable source. As it is very clear that a Tabloid is not a reliable source, what do we do when the sources in the subject's language honor her request not to publish her full legal name, but foreign sources publish this full name that we cannot corroborate with any sources in the native language? The sources (used on the talk page to support the fact that the surname is a particular name) are as follows:
There is also an old official website of some band that has a young woman who has Yui's alleged full name (in the first section, the photo that is alleged to be Yui is the "Pic 6" link), and her name given in kanji is also nearby.
So what is done in this situation? Do we go with the English (and French and German) sources, or do we go with the subject's privacy that the Japanese press (barring a 4 year old tabloid article) respects? Or is this a matter for another board entirely?— Ryulong ( 竜龙) 20:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
So we can say that her name is "Yui Yoshioka", but we have no real source to say that is written in Japanese as 吉岡唯 outside of the vague mention of a "Yui Yoshioka" on the band website?— Ryulong ( 竜龙) 21:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Ryulong has added the information about the latin alphabet transliteration, although I think it's a little too apologetic, and it would be better to put it in the infobox with a footnote explaining that her real name does not appear in Japanese media. We have a similar situation with Becky. Talent agencies in Japan are revoltingly powerful; they appear to be able to keep people's real names out of the press even when their property is on our screens all the bloody time. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 13:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)