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I trired to re-read the discussion above and the policy itself, it comes to my mind that a good deal of confusion is the disparity of the policy title and its main point/nutshell: " To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. "
It other words, it does not matter how we graded the views that differ from mainstream: what matters is that they are non-mainstream. Clearly, there is a continuous spectrum and some ideas may float within this range. (For example a bold mainstream hypothesis may become dubious in view of new data, but the proponent will jealously defend it. While he does decent science, it may be called "minority view", when he slips into adding unjustified assumptions, mainstream starts dismissing him altogether, thus shifting into "fringe" area; and at the extreme the proponent may even go full crackpot.)
Therefore I will suggest to rename the policy into Wikipedia:Non-mainstream views (NB: not "theories") and focus more on the WP:DUE aspect, rather than on splitting hairs about the term, which is mostly pejorative indeed: I quickly browsed Google Books and most of them who refer to "fringe" actually focus on pseudo-science. In other words, we must focus on a reasonable classification/recognition of the degree of acceptance, rather on the degree of fringeness of a claim/view/theory, i.e., avoid sticking to label-sticking. Staszek Lem ( talk) 20:19, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
References
There are arguments that are constructed to look like science, but aren't. To determine whether something is pseudoscientific or merely an alternative theoretical formulation, consider that:
Pseudoscience usually relies on attacking mainstream scientific theories and methodology while lacking a critical discourse itself. Watch specifically for:
An example of the latter is climate change. Obviously the Earth's climate has changed drastically over its history, but the phrase in its scientific meaning refers to recent rapid unprecedented changes (at least unprecedented within human time on Earth). A highly motivated lobby [1] present the scientific consensus or dominant paradigm as having some problem, but it has proven impossible to disprove either global warming as an overall trend or the narrower anthropogenic global warming or the even narrower CAGW. While all the alternative theories of warming are "fringe" and studies citing them or claiming to support them have all proven irreproducible (as with parapsychology). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017
Often pseudoscience theories are proliferated as part of a crapflood - a tactic in information warfare whereby a truth in plain sight can be rendered hard to believe by dilution. If the percentage of people believing the science motivates action can be reduced below some critical supermajority, it becomes easy to delay such action, and profits continue. It is not necessary for any new theory to emerge, only to prevent adoption of - and action on - the dominant one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017
Be careful to differentiate consensus from fringe status, to find answers to the fringe objections in the consensus, and to be especially watchful of WP:COI problems among sources. It can be useful to just enter the name of the theory with "debunked" in a search engine and see who has directly responded to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017
Consider medicine as the best analogy for differentiating between science & policy: No matter how many fringe theorists claim that arsenic is good for you, it is still illegal to dump it in your well, and you are entitled to defend yours based on the medical consensus that it is harmful. An argument about how scientific consensus may change is not an argument to ignore policy based on the current consensus.
In any given decade, less than 1% of scientific consensus from the previous decade is typically challenged at all, so it would be entirely wrong and dangerous to claim that safety critical policy is ever dependent on scientific total certainty. It literally never is, policy decisions (as in medicine) are made based on best known science, and if that changes, then, it changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017
Please see Wikipedia_talk:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia#Is_Warsaw_number_a_hoax?. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:34, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Regarding this, the Wikipedia:Based upon essay is about what articles should be based upon rather than what any individual statement should be based upon. Of course, the essay can be expanded to address statements in addition to what type of sources an article is primarily or half based upon. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 01:56, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Please see: Talk:List of reportedly haunted locations#Requested move 1 June 2020. Some of the more circular debate there involves interpretation of MOS:WTW with WP:FRINGE. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:01, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia talk:Tendentious editing#POVFIGHTER. Summary: A provision has been added to WP:TE that appears to have implications for this page and editorial activity relating to it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Currently we have a single shortcut to the Wikipedia:Fringe theories#Spectrum of fringe theories section: WP:FRINGE/PS. However, there are three broad categories listed in the section: Pseudoscience (PS), Questionable science, and Alternative theoretical formulations. Our single shortcut seems to refer specifically only to the first category, pseudoscience.
In conversations on topics where there is potential for miscategorization of distinct theories that either overlap or are commonly grouped together in the vernacular, this leads to significant debate about whether or not a certain idea is fringe or not.
For instance, this has come up multiple times regarding COVID-19 and theories about laboratory origins. Generally people think of the pseudoscientific conspiracy theories regarding bioengineering, but this isn't the only topic. There's also some questionable/junk science, either from those without relevant experience or far outside the norms of peer review and open transparency. Generally the problem comes with the alternative theoretical formulations, specifically an unknown collection and inadvertent exposure to a bat virus in a lab environment. This is very clearly an area of legitimate scientific inquiry (as the joint China-WHO team evaluated it, but not the bioengineering theory), but also arguably fringe for being the apparent minority opinion. I can refer to WP:FRINGE regarding any of these topics, but this can be misinterpreted in multiple ways.
My proposal is to add two additional shortcuts, WP:FRINGE/QUES (or similar) and WP:FRINGE/ALT (or similar). This would allow easier distinction when used on talk pages, avoiding the potential baggage of implying valid scientific inquiry of a minority perspective is pseudoscience, and vice-vers-a. Bakkster Man ( talk) 16:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I missed the discussion in January and wanted to add an additional view.
Conspiracy theory has a clear meaning in academic literature. It is an alternative explanation of events that involves an all-knowing, all-powerful and totally evil group whose actions are unreported in mainstream sources. Such theories are not falsifiable, because any evidence against them is dismissed as obfuscation by the conspirators. Much of conspiracy theory writing uses dubious or false facts and faulty logic.
As an article in The Conversation says, "Conspiracy theories are deliberately complex and reflect an all-encompassing worldview. Instead of trying to explain one thing, a conspiracy theory tries to explain everything, discovering connections across domains of human interaction that are otherwise hidden – mostly because they do not exist." [2]
9/11 Truth fits all the elements of a conspiracy theory. It claims that the U.S. government murdered 1,000s of its own citizens as a false flag operation to justify the war in Iraq. In order to do that, it would have been able to carry out an elaborate covert action and keep it secret, despite the fact that hundreds or even thousands of people would have been in on the secret. The adherents explain the findings of experts by claiming they are part of the conspiracy.
In my opinion this is similar to the case of terrorism. It is a concept studied by experts and we expect expert opinion before we use the term. We don't expect that a reporter has sufficient expertise.
There is a clear distinction between conspiracy theories and plausible if unlikely alternative explanations which may elude news reporters, although conspiracy theorists may adopt alternative explanations and add in the elements of a conspiracy theory. In fact, Wikipedia draws a clear distinction between pseudoscience and alternative explanations in its Fringe theories|.
To use a current example, conspiracy theorists have seized on the Wuhan lab leak theory which fits in with their pre-existing views on Communism, the U.S. government, the globalists, and xenophobia. Yet the WHO and Dr. Fauci see it as a possible if unlikely source that has not been ruled out.
TFD ( talk) 23:31, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Lunatic charlatans, which is about a wikipedia that is within the scope of this WikiProject. Bangalamania ( talk) 20:31, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
It might be useful for WP:PARITY to mention WP:MEDRS. The fact is that editors do not require an "ideal" source to add information about notable quackery. We can say that Chromotherapy is quackery without producing a peer-reviewed review article published within the last five years in a reputable journal; it's enough to produce any reliable source to describe such obvious nonsense. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 20:58, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Over the past few months, there have been several discussions about instances of WP:FRINGE being misused as a justification to disregard other policies and guidelines. The most important of these was the Skepticism and coordinated editing arbitration case, in which Rp2006 was topic banned from all skepticism related BLPs for (among other things) editing with a conflict of interest, and excessively negative editing of BLP articles about individuals associated with fringe topics. [3] During that case, one of the workshop proposals was for a principle which would have clarified that WP:FRINGE must be used in a way that is consistent with other policies and guidelines, [4] but this principle was not incorporated into the final decision.
In a discussion about this issue at the village pump a few months ago,
Masem made an insightful
comment about how WP:FRINGE also has been used to circumvent RS policy: While I agree that we should still be relying on quality RSes for discussion of the state of a fringe theory without legitimizing, the issue that has been the core of this entire thread has been about how editors with a strong anti-fringe stance seem to go out of their way to knock any type of legitimacy of sources that would be the appropriate type to use in these cases that happen to give a bit of support or non-stigmatizing coverage of fringe, and then thus claim there's no coverage of the fringe view in RSes and thus no need to cover it - a line of circular logic.
WP:FRINGEBLP already makes it clear that the usage of WP:FRINGE cannot supersede the requirements of BLP policy. I suggest that the WP:FRINGE guideline should contain a similar clarification about its relation to other Wikipedia policies and guidelines: namely, that WP:FRINGE also cannot supersede the requirements of WP:COI, WP:RS, or WP:V. 2600:1004:B110:A468:C55C:DD85:8E2:95C5 ( talk) 19:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
The policies are not in competition with each other. (I am by default dubious of any proposal that tries to "clarify" proper editing by playing acronyms against one another, as in my experience, these tend either to be bikeshedding or an attempt to push a pet cause by cloaking it in wiki-jargon. I'm not presuming anything about the motives of anyone in this discussion, just saying that for me personally, any such proposal will be an uphill battle.) I also concur with Ad Orientem that
PROFRINGE editing is by far a greater problem than the occasionally over-zealous behavior of those attempting to curb these pernicious POV editors(in fact, I would italicize by far). I don't find the argument about "circular reasoning" to be persuasive; to me, it reads as a slippery slope down to a worst-case hypothetical. Moreover, and perhaps I am echoing jps here, one could make the same accusation about editing on any topic. (Nor does it really seem connected with the ArbCom case that prompted this discussion, as that was principally about COI editing, not demarcating fringe from non-fringe or insisting that a particular source must be reliable because it toed some imagined party line about fringe topics.) The problem with trying to tweak the words in any one guideline to prevent abuse is that there's always another guideline, always some other way to wiki-lawyer, always another argument to drag out and delay until the editors standing in your way have had to move on to the next crisis. Words can only do so much when it's people who are the problem. XOR'easter ( talk) 20:43, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, I would say the danger is at least as great as it has ever been--though yes, perhaps it is better filtered here than it was fifteen years ago.Expanding on this, I'd suggest the primary reason such perspectives are well controlled today is because of FRINGE, not a sign that it's no longer necessary. Bakkster Man ( talk) 15:10, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
The world, and our contributors, has changed. The dangerous social movements of our time are not represented significantly in Wikipedia, at least the English Wikipedia. Our problem now is just the opposite: making sure that the varied world of human opinion, sensible and not, is fully explained and represented.This feels wholly at odds with the current state of things, both the world and Wikipedia. It may not be Scientology anymore, but now it's Ivermectin and Trump and Russian Disinformation, on top of older topics that never went away like sex/gender and race/intelligence.
the first step towards of this would be a contents rule, that we never say something is fringe, or false, or true, or controversial.Why do we need to nuke FRINGE to 'never say something is false or true'? That's already what FRINGE says: we should
put into context with respect to the mainstream perspective. Saying true/false is an issue of application, not of the guideline itself. Same with the potentially loaded word "fringe", particularly in article space.
We all know what we think today, but we can not tell if we will still think it tomorrow; how can we dare enshrine it as a judgment in a work of reference?I strongly disagree with the idea that we shouldn't identify current mainstream and non-mainstream ideas as such, as the alternative would result in a failure to function as an encyclopedia. We should not attempt to preemptively WP:RGW by assuming the currently accepted mainstream view might change in the future. We're a WP:WIP, and it's better for us to err on the side of, for instance, mainstream published meta-analysis scientific consensus, rather than presenting one person's pre-print papers funded by political activists as if they have an equal weight purely on the off-chance that this one person got it right. While they're non-mainstream, we should say so. When they become mainstream, we should say so. Bakkster Man ( talk) 14:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I don’t think anyone objects to calling out fringe as fringeDGG seems to advocate for precisely this in his comment above. Bakkster Man ( talk) 17:46, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
If those deeds obtrude into fringe areas and Wikipedia airs them it needs to call out the fringe-as-fringe. This is baked into NPOV and is non-negotiable core policy.This right here is exactly why we need to clarify FRINGE. FRINGE is not a license to "call out the fringe-as-fringe" anywhere and everywhere nor is it "baked into NPOV" The FRINGE page itself clearly states "(fringe theories) must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea" and that in articles about a fringe theory to maintain "the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints must be made clear." What it does not say is to go out and shout loudly anywhere and everywhere you can how wrong those theories are. As an example, i give you Nicholas Wade wherein it was argued by multiple editors that Wade's biography must include multiple paragraphs of criticism of his work but not Wade's response to those critics:
a genetic link exists between race and intelligence." :::: here Using FRINGE to coatrack the biography "
Again, i want to emphasize, this is not an article about race and genetics, its an article about Nicholas Wade.Again, I want to emphasize that this argument is a non-sequitur. Our policies on WP:FRINGE and WP:DUE apply to the whole project, just like WP:V, WP:BLP and WP:MPOV do." :::: here "Why on earth would we want to use this BLP as a platform to uncritically present Wade's fringe view that the scientific consensus on race is an
anti-evolutionary myth?"
What we are in danger from, is those who reject the serious consideration of testable theories because they do not like the implications, or the supporters.Bonewah ( talk) 18:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia calls out bonkers ideas out as bonkersEven if it were possible to reliably separate bonkers ideas from merely unpopular ones, you are still incorrect. Wikipedia isnt here to "call out ideas" one way or the other, but to present verifiable information in a neutral fashion. Bonewah ( talk) 19:20, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I do not offer any comments lest it be construed as a PA and redacted. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)It's too early to settle that question. Research in human biology will decide.
include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world(emphasis added). Bakkster Man ( talk) 15:58, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
In other words, fringe material is only included when contextualized properly: fringe-as-fringe. Alexbrn ( talk) 16:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world. [my emphasis]
some editors have misused WP:FRINGE as a justification to violate other Wikipedia policies. I think we all are aware this happens, and there have been several recent discussions about it, including the request to Arbcom in October. Checking that ArbCom request again [6], I do not see any supposed instances of this sort of violation you listed there that weren't thoroughly debunked. I don't doubt that such violations have occurred somewhere, at some point, but citing this embarrassing episode as evidence to support your characterization of what "we are all aware" of shows that your assessment of the issue is untrustworthy. Unless you can come up with a convincing argument that there is a legitimate problem here to be addressed, the impression will remain that this proposal is just another obsessive attempt to find a pretext for reinserting PROFRINGE content into the R&I topic area. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Ferahgo, my earnest suggestion is to drop the stick, because every bit I read from your copious messages just make me think it was a mistake to ever unban you.[10] I’ll leave aside any argument over what CaptainEek and Barkeep49 are referring to in their comments, except to note that neither of them at any point singled me or my edits out for criticism, and indeed neither gave any indication that they had even read my comments. Generalrelative ( talk) 02:49, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Travis Walton UFO incident § Polygraph. Sundayclose ( talk) 00:38, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Both Wikipedia articles and the talk pages here wrestle with the complexities and misuses of the term. This page basically covers "fringe theories" which is a specific subset of "fringe" yet the redirect from the much more heavily used term WP:fringe plus wording in the page itself conflates the two. And so in Wikipedia WP:Fringe often means many things besides fringe theories. A wiki-useful taxonomy of "fringe" might be:
1. Fringe Theories Minority-view statements about potential objective facts
2. Fringe subjective views Anything from action advocacy "we should segregate the USA" to matters of interpretation, e.g. the word "good" in "Hitler was a good person" to widely held views which are out of favor in the current venue
3. Beliefs, legends etc. which are treated as such and not subjected to any scrutiny E.G. "The spirits of our ancestors live in that mountain" or most of religion, or what Santa Claus does and where he lives.
One really can't deal with them without first acknowledging the fundamentally different situations. North8000 ( talk) 20:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Version 2: one response prompted me to clarify a point on rights.
Many new editors including myself have realized that when we bring up certain views or points they are immediately struck down, and I have after reading Arbitration Statement by Cla68 on American Politics 2, @ Cla68, I have been convinced that there needs to be room for minority views as well for WP not to lose new competent editors who want to add value to WP.
Recent good, helpful and insightful conversations with several editors @ Newslinger, @ Doug Weller, @ Dronebogus, @ BusterD, @ Mvbaron, and some naive responses from my side early on, and after also reading Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources I have concluded that wikipedia is only a site for majority views or majority supported views. Especially the Wikipedia:Notability only opens for majority views, or by nature historically research, either governmental funded or journalistic funded, on minority views that has been given enough attention by established institutions would be considered for wikipedia. Maybe I am ignorant here and maybe more criteria apply, please bear with me for my lack of WP understanding. I may propose that WP should not only have room for majority views but also minority views. I will bring up some examples where this has been enshrined in United States law and in United Nations's Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Wikimedia Foundation is incorporated in the US and has to respect to some degree US law and US has also ratified some the human rights [11] of UDHR.
Why is this important, in this topic, because the world is pluralistic, that is one reason EU for instance have adopt conscience laws that grants a mid-wife to exempt from abortions [12] out of conscience, and another reason that in the US military personnel can opt out from certain mandatory medical practices that goes against “Sincerely Held Religious Beliefs” [13], so that the authority often in majority cannot enforce everything they want for various reasons.
Similarly, that people with minority views are respected during some form and some practices in their fields to be able to cooperate with the majority. Recruitment of competent personnel is needed in medical and military fields to sustain fruitfulness and people with very opposing views needs to cooperate for the field to be fruitful which would otherwise suffer.
V2: These points just serve as examples of minority views that has been set by law to make a workplace, here military and medicine examples, open and available for more than the majority. The points shall not be interpreted as the minority has a clear right to propose mandatory content on WP. The aim of the points is to convey that accommodating both views "better" reflect that the world is pluralistic, and that many times the minority view often is less funded and often has less skilled representation since the majority by nature attracts more capital and resources.
Maybe, considering above point and as a proposal then, there should be sections on every article where minority opinions/references should be accommodated to reflect that there are two or more opposing viewpoints on the same article. Those sections should be clearly tagged that they are minority or fringe viewpoints but they still exist. Galileo had at one point in time a minority/fringe view point that the world was round and he paid a heavy price for that. Maybe there are minority viewpoints in WP that are meaningful and attract a large/engaged audience, maybe not the majority, but a large/engaged audience and they should also be accommodated in a meaningful fashion to avoid decreasing editor recruitment. I also believe that not all newcomers can make the points I have just made and if there are other editors that may recognize or identify with these points it would be appreciated if you would let yourself be known.
This text does not claim full saturation or understanding of the problem identified but is an effort to maybe make WP more attractive to a greater editing and reader audience with differing viewpoints.
Now I just added this topic on this talk page where this has been heavily and lengthily discussed already. If this should be put somewhere else please advice me. Edotor ( talk) 13:16, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Claims derived from fringe theories should be carefully attributed to an appropriate source and located within a context—e.g. "There are extreme academic views such as those of Jacques Halbronn, suggesting at great length and with great complexity that Nostradamus's Prophecies are antedated forgeries written by later hands with a political axe to grind." Such claims may contain or be followed by qualifiers to maintain neutrality—e.g. "Although Halbronn possibly knows more about the texts and associated archives than almost anybody else alive (he helped dig out and research many of them), most other specialists in the field reject this view."—but restraint should be used with such qualifiers to avoid giving the appearance of an overly harsh or overly critical assessment. This is particularly true within articles dedicated specifically to fringe ideas: Such articles should first describe the idea clearly and objectively, then refer the reader to more accepted ideas, and avoid excessive use of point-counterpoint style refutations. It is also best to avoid hiding all disputations in an end criticism section, but instead work for integrated, easy to read, and accurate article prose.
a separate WP needs to be created that can accommodate both majority and minority views. Anyone can create an online encyclopaedia, promoting whatever views they like. They can even, subject to following the necessary licensing requirements, copy Wikipedia article content to it. It would not however be Wikipedia, which has long-established policies, established after much debate, about how and when 'minority views' are included in content. And if you wish to argue for a change in such core policies, you will have to come up with more than vague arguments waffling on about 'human rights', which under no circumstances I am aware of include the right to impose specific content on websites you don't own or control. That isn't a 'right', it is an infringement of other peoples rights to determine for themselves what they chose to say for themselves. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 14:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Could we add a sentence in Wikipedia:Fringe theories#Spectrum of fringe theories that says something to the effect that being mistaken isn't the definition of pseudoscience? I worry that editors read this and conclude that bad science (e.g., choosing a bad experimental design, making the all-too-human mistake of over-interpreting your results, being unaware of some critical fact) is pseudoscience. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 00:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
On the imagined scale that has excellent science at one end and then slides through good science, mediocre science (the vast majority of what is done), poor science, to bad science on the other end, it is not the case that pseudoscience lies somewhere on this continuum. It is off the grid altogether.😁 Tewdar 17:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
I am wondering if it may be worthwhile to document a general principle akin to WP:PARITY here about rejoinders. Sometimes I see arguments made that if we include the WP:MAINSTREAM explanation of a WP:FRINGE theory then there is something like a right of reply that the fringe theory advocates have. I am rather of the opinion that if a rejoinder has not been well-cited, it probably does not belong in Wikipedia. This is related to WP:MANDY but it also goes towards a secondary WP:NFRINGE point about replies and replies to replies and replies to replies to replies, etc.
Here's the problem as I see it: Fringe idea is published and gets enough traction to cause a mainstream expert to comment on the topic -- maybe even offer a decent debunking. This, unsurprisingly, riles up the supporters of the idea and they shoot off a reply that often nitpicks about certain details while missing the substantive point of the rejoinder. [[WP:PROFRINGE}] editor insists that we include the reply as a "last word" even as it is unlikely there will be a counter-counter-counterpoint because, well, mainstream experts are typically uninterested in prolonging spats of this nature.
A single sentence about how fringe-inspired rejoinders of debunkings might be worthy of inclusion only if they've been noticed by independent sources would be great. I know it seems like it's already sorta in the guideline, but it's surprising how often this seems to come up.
jps ( talk) 00:38, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Proposed sentence to add to WP:FRIND:
I am trying to stay positive here, describing what generally can be used to source content about fringe theories as opposed to prohibitions. I feel, however, that this sentence makes it clear that if independent sources have not taken notice of a particular source, it's probably not one Wikipedia should use.
jps ( talk) 13:15, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
[16] "Hypotheses which have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect". What is meant by saying that a hypothesis "may contain information"? I would guess that it means the article may contain that information, but simply tacking on "Articles about" at the beginning would make for an awkward sentence. I don't think it's overly bold to try to fix a clear problem with the phrasing. DefThree ( talk) 14:25, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
which have a substantial following. Removing that doesn't just change the readability of the statement but also the substantive advice it's offering. I'm also not convinced that there's anything especially difficult to understand about the sentence as currently written. Yes, it's a bit awkward, but I don't think anyone who understands English will have real trouble discerning its meaning. That said, if you want to offer alternative wordings here on the talk page that improve clarity without interfering with the substance of the guideline, I'd welcome that. Generalrelative ( talk) 14:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
I think that there should be a different treatments for different disciplines. While Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Physiology, Astronomy, etc, are rightful sciences, in the sense that they allow to carry out experiments or observations in a controlled way or with a limited number of parameters, disciplines such as Psychology, Anthropology, Sociology and Economics don't have an equal standing. They are rather "practical philosophies", that have adopted some aspects of the scientific method but which aren't actual sciences because the systems they study are too complex and cannot be studied in isolation. When judged with the standards of actual Sciences, research papers in those disciplines hardly pass the exam. I think that a good test to spot a practical philosophy disguising as science is to check whether there are different "Schools". 2001:B07:ADD:C4B2:444B:5AB9:46AF:46C0 ( talk) 09:16, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
I think fundamentally, all the issues about Fringe Theory articles come down to the tension between the desire to write about the material facts about a given event, and the desire to describe the beliefs that certain people have about those events. I think that to this end, we should try to hammer out a few style and prose guidlines on the subject. Here are my initial inputs and I would like to hear what others have to say.
Collapse lengthy proposal
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Guiding Principles 1.) The article is first and foremost about the beliefs not the events, if the events themselves are noteworthy they should be the name of the article. 2.) The accepted convention should be described in statements of fact, and immediately after the introduction of the idea. 3.) The debunked status of a fringe theory is a matter of opinion, which describes whether or not people believes something. A reliable source which provides counter evidence does not constitute proof that something is debunked. Only the lack of people believing in something can make it debunked. The existence of a persistent group of "believers" means its no debunked. Example, heliocentrism is debunked, flat earth isn't. (Yes I realize that heliocentrism is sometimes a sub-belief of some flat earth cosmologies) 4.) Avoid excessively hypothetical tone. If you can not write about something as a sequence of statements, then don't write about it. Its either a bad thing to write about or too hard for you to write about. 5.) The purpose of the article is not to point and laugh at people who believe silly things. The purpose of the article is to accurately describe what those things are AND WHY THEY BELIEVE THEM. 6.) Descriptions of why people believe something is not, and should not be treated like an argument in its favor. Example: "Some people believe in God because they have personally experienced miracles" should not be followed by a screed about a bunch of hoax miracles. Thats not even a good argument, and its DEFINITELY bad Wikipedia 7.) Do not go out of your way to make it seem any more quackish than it already is. 8.) Conspiracy theorist has become a dirty word, and we should avoid repeating it using more neutral language like "proponents of the theory" etc. This does not mean its not okay to discuss articles or counter claims which refer to these people as conspiracy theorists To that end, I have come up with a hypothetical example. This article is about "Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism" which is a conspiracy about adding cow brains to cheese products to make the consumers more susceptible to mind control. Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism Bovine Cerebro-Dairyism is the belief that commercially available dairy products, particularly cheese, are completely or partially synthesized from the brain matter of cows, rather than their milk. Motivations for doing so vary, though largely relate to altering the protein composition, hormone balance, or psychic susceptibility of the consumer as a means to make the general population more receptive to centralized control. Bovine Cerebro-Dairyism began to circulate in online message board communities in the early 1980's. Estimated figures for views and interactions suggest that approximately 3,000 people regularly participated in online conversations about the topic by 1992 across forums such as chan4, YourSpace, and Yeehaw. In 2004, notable proponents Jackstein Mars and Hannah Banana began appearing on day time television programs, discussing concerns about the general health implications of dairy products on intelligence and life span. By 2005, both figures were publicly associated with Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism, with Mr Mars mentioning his advocacy in a televised interview with NNC on June 14, 2005. In the aftermath of Mr Mars's public appearance, interest and conversation about Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism increased considerably, and discussion became prominent on more mainstream platforms where users other than those at the inception of the internet were more common. The theory, along with a large volume of media circulated heavily. Examples of the circulated media include edited photographs where dairy products and marketing materials were replaced with cow brains, such as Suadeta Mac and Cheese made of yellow brains. As these images began to circulate outside their previously insular communities, they attracted the attention of internet users who appropriated the media for usage in memes and other humorous purposes, which typically featured increasingly graphic, absurd, and surreal depictions of the original theme. Several of these memes were in turned circulated through genuine Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism communities online, thought to be genuine. In 2007, XYZ Television did a brief expose on Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism, as part of a larger series on online dis- and misinformation campaigns. The docu-series received above average critical reviews, though faced criticism from outspoke members of the Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism community for their use of memes which had originated outside the community. These criticism came despite the indistinguishable circulation of these same memes within the criticizing communities. Related Publications In 2006, in response to public sensation, the FDA commissioned and investigation into the safety, sanitation, and processing standards in dairy facilities across the United States. The study concluded that with isolated exceptions of above average euthanasia rates at dairy farms as opposed to meat farms, there was no indication of a general failure to preserve the safety and quality of dairy products in the United States. The publication by the FDA is frequently cited by proponents of Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism as evidence of a general conspiracy to suppress information and conceal the truth about American dairy products. In the study, a sampling of the protein composition of 37 different cheese manufacturers are made, doing mass-spectrograms. This data was revealed to have been borrowed from a study three years prior, which documented the nutritional value of 263 different dairy products. In 59 of these mention is made of a compound listed as BCO, with no further explanation. BCO does not appear on the spectragram data for any of the products in the FDA report, including those from facilities which do list in the prior study. The FDA released a statement several month after the initial releasing, addressing the discrepancy. BCO is an abbreviation for the discontinued anti-clumping agent benzocollaic oliate. BCO was discontinued in 2001 due to its interference with certain preservatives. Due to some of the data being collected prior to 2001, even though the basis study was published in 2003, and the FDA report in 2006, the FDA removed the data points form their report in order to prevent confusion about the presence of the discontinued food additive. Proponents of Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism cite this discrepancy as evidence the FDA is doctoring results and that BCO never existed as all other additive names are spelled out in the report data section. Instead the abbreviation is alleged to be an industry standard meaning "Brains of Cowlike Origin". Food safety experts, and other scientists working outside the FDA and not associated with the Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism community have largely panned the FDA study, referring to it as lazy, unorganized, and in the case of Dr Friedrich Farnes "unconvincing". These public criticism have been cited as evidence that Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism has mainstream scientific support, despite public statements from Dr Farnes stating that this is a misappropriation of his words. In the aftermath of Dr Farnes's public humiliation, general reticence to discuss the study in a critical manner has been cited as a conspiracy to silence the allegedly significant cohort of scientists who support Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism. |
Conclusion
Let me know if you this is a good template for tone and structure for discussing conspiracy theories
> Azeranth ( talk) Azeranth ( talk) 00:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
The existence of a persistent group of "believers" means its not debunked.(I fixed the typo in the quote rather than insert a "sic".) Schazjmd (talk) 00:19, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Schazjmd, you beat me to it. This humdinger defies all logic:
This seems to be an attempt to create a logical wormhole for nonsense to claim legitimacy. That's not going to work. Our PAG are good enough. (I'm really getting tired of this timesink.) -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 05:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Only the lack of people believing in something can make it debunked.This is only true in the Metaverse. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 14:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Azeranth, you "hope that the article would be constructed in such a way..."
Right there we find a conflict between your imagined perfect article and Wikipedia's requirements for article construction.
Editors can read all sources available and construct a complete and perfect article, but for fringe topics it will definitely violate our policies and guidelines.
We are limited to what RS tell us about the fringe POV and thinking, and then what the mainstream POV and thinking are.
We present the subject from the mainstream POV. We do not present the selling points and arguments from the fringe POV. Instead, we present only as much knowledge of that as is revealed by RS.
If you examine several articles on fringe topics, for example pseudoscience and conspiracy theories, you will find widely differing styles, formats, and coverage. That should reflect how RS have covered each topic.
My point? Drop any ideas of the perfect article. Lay out everything RS say about the topic on a table (figuratively) and make the best presentation you can. Keep in mind that advocacy of fringe POV is forbidden. We are not Conservapedia or Fringeapedia. We are a mainstream encyclopedia. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 03:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
References
There is a discussion at RSN that relates to this page; see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Can sources that state that religious miracles actually occurred be reliable sources? BilledMammal ( talk) 13:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Currently,
Wikipedia:FRINGE/PS declares: the universal scientific view is that
perpetual motion is impossible
. This appears to conflate the motion with the machines that are purported to exploit it. As a result, it seems to declare "fringe" such concepts as
inertia (aka
Newton's First Law of Motion), the
eternal inflation of the universe, and
time crystals. This is as ridiculous a claim as the fabled
rockets can't fly in space because there's nothing to push against. –
.Raven
.talk 04:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Interesting source from vice about fringe going mainstream, with the initial subject about JP Sears but goes on to cover others such as Alex Jones, etc. Jtbobwaysf ( talk) 09:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Looks a bit fringey to me. Publications in Medical Hypotheses, involvement with cold fusion. Guy ( help! - typo?) 15:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
It seems to me that Wikipedia science and medicine editors are quite stringent in their interpretation of wp:MEDRS and wp:FRINGE, usually the effect that if a single RS characterizes something as pseudoscientific this is noted in the lede, often in the first sentence or paragraph.
On the whole this is better than the alternative of failing to note questionable practices, but I wonder if it might sometimes mislead lay-readers. Many "alternative" medicine treatments are based on things that are obviously discredited (like "chi" in acupuncture), whereas other things are in the experimental stage, but sources claim are plausible hypotheses inferred from available scientific data (see abductive reasoning).
I am not suggesting that Wikipedia promote mere hypotheses. But I am wondering what policies are in place to distinguish evidence of absence vs. absence of evidence, because these tend to get conflated by laypeople. A good example of this would be the start of the Covid pandemic, when many public health officials stated there was "no good evidence" that mask-wearing was effective (even though it was a reasonable inference based on what we know of viral transmission), and many wrongly concluded from this that masks were not effective. AtavisticPillow ( talk) 14:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What steps do we take to ensure that we do not prevent a modern Galileo from being as badly treated as Galileo was in his time?
If the only theories of quark motion are fringe theories should we not still present the best one as a starting point. Bill field pulse ( talk) 19:15, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
What steps do we takeWell, to begin with, we do not threaten anyone with torture. Second, we do not forbid anyone to publish their theories under threat of death, and third, we do not put anyone under house arrest. Those are pretty efficient in preventing that sort of thing, don't you think? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 09:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
By any chance, does this rule apply to the status of a name? Someone said, "To have North Korea as the title of a document is to treat 'North Korea' as if it were on par with the fact that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is an official country name, which violates the Wikipedia talk: Fringe theories" Mamiamauwy ( talk) 08:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Fringe theories page. |
|
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 |
This page is for discussion of the wording of the
Wikipedia:Fringe theories guideline, not for discussion of specific theories. To discuss problems with specific theories, articles, and users, please go to the Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard, thank you. |
|
Copied from Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard
I trired to re-read the discussion above and the policy itself, it comes to my mind that a good deal of confusion is the disparity of the policy title and its main point/nutshell: " To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. "
It other words, it does not matter how we graded the views that differ from mainstream: what matters is that they are non-mainstream. Clearly, there is a continuous spectrum and some ideas may float within this range. (For example a bold mainstream hypothesis may become dubious in view of new data, but the proponent will jealously defend it. While he does decent science, it may be called "minority view", when he slips into adding unjustified assumptions, mainstream starts dismissing him altogether, thus shifting into "fringe" area; and at the extreme the proponent may even go full crackpot.)
Therefore I will suggest to rename the policy into Wikipedia:Non-mainstream views (NB: not "theories") and focus more on the WP:DUE aspect, rather than on splitting hairs about the term, which is mostly pejorative indeed: I quickly browsed Google Books and most of them who refer to "fringe" actually focus on pseudo-science. In other words, we must focus on a reasonable classification/recognition of the degree of acceptance, rather on the degree of fringeness of a claim/view/theory, i.e., avoid sticking to label-sticking. Staszek Lem ( talk) 20:19, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
References
There are arguments that are constructed to look like science, but aren't. To determine whether something is pseudoscientific or merely an alternative theoretical formulation, consider that:
Pseudoscience usually relies on attacking mainstream scientific theories and methodology while lacking a critical discourse itself. Watch specifically for:
An example of the latter is climate change. Obviously the Earth's climate has changed drastically over its history, but the phrase in its scientific meaning refers to recent rapid unprecedented changes (at least unprecedented within human time on Earth). A highly motivated lobby [1] present the scientific consensus or dominant paradigm as having some problem, but it has proven impossible to disprove either global warming as an overall trend or the narrower anthropogenic global warming or the even narrower CAGW. While all the alternative theories of warming are "fringe" and studies citing them or claiming to support them have all proven irreproducible (as with parapsychology). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017
Often pseudoscience theories are proliferated as part of a crapflood - a tactic in information warfare whereby a truth in plain sight can be rendered hard to believe by dilution. If the percentage of people believing the science motivates action can be reduced below some critical supermajority, it becomes easy to delay such action, and profits continue. It is not necessary for any new theory to emerge, only to prevent adoption of - and action on - the dominant one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017
Be careful to differentiate consensus from fringe status, to find answers to the fringe objections in the consensus, and to be especially watchful of WP:COI problems among sources. It can be useful to just enter the name of the theory with "debunked" in a search engine and see who has directly responded to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017
Consider medicine as the best analogy for differentiating between science & policy: No matter how many fringe theorists claim that arsenic is good for you, it is still illegal to dump it in your well, and you are entitled to defend yours based on the medical consensus that it is harmful. An argument about how scientific consensus may change is not an argument to ignore policy based on the current consensus.
In any given decade, less than 1% of scientific consensus from the previous decade is typically challenged at all, so it would be entirely wrong and dangerous to claim that safety critical policy is ever dependent on scientific total certainty. It literally never is, policy decisions (as in medicine) are made based on best known science, and if that changes, then, it changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017
Please see Wikipedia_talk:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia#Is_Warsaw_number_a_hoax?. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:34, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Regarding this, the Wikipedia:Based upon essay is about what articles should be based upon rather than what any individual statement should be based upon. Of course, the essay can be expanded to address statements in addition to what type of sources an article is primarily or half based upon. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 01:56, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Please see: Talk:List of reportedly haunted locations#Requested move 1 June 2020. Some of the more circular debate there involves interpretation of MOS:WTW with WP:FRINGE. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:01, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia talk:Tendentious editing#POVFIGHTER. Summary: A provision has been added to WP:TE that appears to have implications for this page and editorial activity relating to it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Currently we have a single shortcut to the Wikipedia:Fringe theories#Spectrum of fringe theories section: WP:FRINGE/PS. However, there are three broad categories listed in the section: Pseudoscience (PS), Questionable science, and Alternative theoretical formulations. Our single shortcut seems to refer specifically only to the first category, pseudoscience.
In conversations on topics where there is potential for miscategorization of distinct theories that either overlap or are commonly grouped together in the vernacular, this leads to significant debate about whether or not a certain idea is fringe or not.
For instance, this has come up multiple times regarding COVID-19 and theories about laboratory origins. Generally people think of the pseudoscientific conspiracy theories regarding bioengineering, but this isn't the only topic. There's also some questionable/junk science, either from those without relevant experience or far outside the norms of peer review and open transparency. Generally the problem comes with the alternative theoretical formulations, specifically an unknown collection and inadvertent exposure to a bat virus in a lab environment. This is very clearly an area of legitimate scientific inquiry (as the joint China-WHO team evaluated it, but not the bioengineering theory), but also arguably fringe for being the apparent minority opinion. I can refer to WP:FRINGE regarding any of these topics, but this can be misinterpreted in multiple ways.
My proposal is to add two additional shortcuts, WP:FRINGE/QUES (or similar) and WP:FRINGE/ALT (or similar). This would allow easier distinction when used on talk pages, avoiding the potential baggage of implying valid scientific inquiry of a minority perspective is pseudoscience, and vice-vers-a. Bakkster Man ( talk) 16:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I missed the discussion in January and wanted to add an additional view.
Conspiracy theory has a clear meaning in academic literature. It is an alternative explanation of events that involves an all-knowing, all-powerful and totally evil group whose actions are unreported in mainstream sources. Such theories are not falsifiable, because any evidence against them is dismissed as obfuscation by the conspirators. Much of conspiracy theory writing uses dubious or false facts and faulty logic.
As an article in The Conversation says, "Conspiracy theories are deliberately complex and reflect an all-encompassing worldview. Instead of trying to explain one thing, a conspiracy theory tries to explain everything, discovering connections across domains of human interaction that are otherwise hidden – mostly because they do not exist." [2]
9/11 Truth fits all the elements of a conspiracy theory. It claims that the U.S. government murdered 1,000s of its own citizens as a false flag operation to justify the war in Iraq. In order to do that, it would have been able to carry out an elaborate covert action and keep it secret, despite the fact that hundreds or even thousands of people would have been in on the secret. The adherents explain the findings of experts by claiming they are part of the conspiracy.
In my opinion this is similar to the case of terrorism. It is a concept studied by experts and we expect expert opinion before we use the term. We don't expect that a reporter has sufficient expertise.
There is a clear distinction between conspiracy theories and plausible if unlikely alternative explanations which may elude news reporters, although conspiracy theorists may adopt alternative explanations and add in the elements of a conspiracy theory. In fact, Wikipedia draws a clear distinction between pseudoscience and alternative explanations in its Fringe theories|.
To use a current example, conspiracy theorists have seized on the Wuhan lab leak theory which fits in with their pre-existing views on Communism, the U.S. government, the globalists, and xenophobia. Yet the WHO and Dr. Fauci see it as a possible if unlikely source that has not been ruled out.
TFD ( talk) 23:31, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Lunatic charlatans, which is about a wikipedia that is within the scope of this WikiProject. Bangalamania ( talk) 20:31, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
It might be useful for WP:PARITY to mention WP:MEDRS. The fact is that editors do not require an "ideal" source to add information about notable quackery. We can say that Chromotherapy is quackery without producing a peer-reviewed review article published within the last five years in a reputable journal; it's enough to produce any reliable source to describe such obvious nonsense. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 20:58, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Over the past few months, there have been several discussions about instances of WP:FRINGE being misused as a justification to disregard other policies and guidelines. The most important of these was the Skepticism and coordinated editing arbitration case, in which Rp2006 was topic banned from all skepticism related BLPs for (among other things) editing with a conflict of interest, and excessively negative editing of BLP articles about individuals associated with fringe topics. [3] During that case, one of the workshop proposals was for a principle which would have clarified that WP:FRINGE must be used in a way that is consistent with other policies and guidelines, [4] but this principle was not incorporated into the final decision.
In a discussion about this issue at the village pump a few months ago,
Masem made an insightful
comment about how WP:FRINGE also has been used to circumvent RS policy: While I agree that we should still be relying on quality RSes for discussion of the state of a fringe theory without legitimizing, the issue that has been the core of this entire thread has been about how editors with a strong anti-fringe stance seem to go out of their way to knock any type of legitimacy of sources that would be the appropriate type to use in these cases that happen to give a bit of support or non-stigmatizing coverage of fringe, and then thus claim there's no coverage of the fringe view in RSes and thus no need to cover it - a line of circular logic.
WP:FRINGEBLP already makes it clear that the usage of WP:FRINGE cannot supersede the requirements of BLP policy. I suggest that the WP:FRINGE guideline should contain a similar clarification about its relation to other Wikipedia policies and guidelines: namely, that WP:FRINGE also cannot supersede the requirements of WP:COI, WP:RS, or WP:V. 2600:1004:B110:A468:C55C:DD85:8E2:95C5 ( talk) 19:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
The policies are not in competition with each other. (I am by default dubious of any proposal that tries to "clarify" proper editing by playing acronyms against one another, as in my experience, these tend either to be bikeshedding or an attempt to push a pet cause by cloaking it in wiki-jargon. I'm not presuming anything about the motives of anyone in this discussion, just saying that for me personally, any such proposal will be an uphill battle.) I also concur with Ad Orientem that
PROFRINGE editing is by far a greater problem than the occasionally over-zealous behavior of those attempting to curb these pernicious POV editors(in fact, I would italicize by far). I don't find the argument about "circular reasoning" to be persuasive; to me, it reads as a slippery slope down to a worst-case hypothetical. Moreover, and perhaps I am echoing jps here, one could make the same accusation about editing on any topic. (Nor does it really seem connected with the ArbCom case that prompted this discussion, as that was principally about COI editing, not demarcating fringe from non-fringe or insisting that a particular source must be reliable because it toed some imagined party line about fringe topics.) The problem with trying to tweak the words in any one guideline to prevent abuse is that there's always another guideline, always some other way to wiki-lawyer, always another argument to drag out and delay until the editors standing in your way have had to move on to the next crisis. Words can only do so much when it's people who are the problem. XOR'easter ( talk) 20:43, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, I would say the danger is at least as great as it has ever been--though yes, perhaps it is better filtered here than it was fifteen years ago.Expanding on this, I'd suggest the primary reason such perspectives are well controlled today is because of FRINGE, not a sign that it's no longer necessary. Bakkster Man ( talk) 15:10, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
The world, and our contributors, has changed. The dangerous social movements of our time are not represented significantly in Wikipedia, at least the English Wikipedia. Our problem now is just the opposite: making sure that the varied world of human opinion, sensible and not, is fully explained and represented.This feels wholly at odds with the current state of things, both the world and Wikipedia. It may not be Scientology anymore, but now it's Ivermectin and Trump and Russian Disinformation, on top of older topics that never went away like sex/gender and race/intelligence.
the first step towards of this would be a contents rule, that we never say something is fringe, or false, or true, or controversial.Why do we need to nuke FRINGE to 'never say something is false or true'? That's already what FRINGE says: we should
put into context with respect to the mainstream perspective. Saying true/false is an issue of application, not of the guideline itself. Same with the potentially loaded word "fringe", particularly in article space.
We all know what we think today, but we can not tell if we will still think it tomorrow; how can we dare enshrine it as a judgment in a work of reference?I strongly disagree with the idea that we shouldn't identify current mainstream and non-mainstream ideas as such, as the alternative would result in a failure to function as an encyclopedia. We should not attempt to preemptively WP:RGW by assuming the currently accepted mainstream view might change in the future. We're a WP:WIP, and it's better for us to err on the side of, for instance, mainstream published meta-analysis scientific consensus, rather than presenting one person's pre-print papers funded by political activists as if they have an equal weight purely on the off-chance that this one person got it right. While they're non-mainstream, we should say so. When they become mainstream, we should say so. Bakkster Man ( talk) 14:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I don’t think anyone objects to calling out fringe as fringeDGG seems to advocate for precisely this in his comment above. Bakkster Man ( talk) 17:46, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
If those deeds obtrude into fringe areas and Wikipedia airs them it needs to call out the fringe-as-fringe. This is baked into NPOV and is non-negotiable core policy.This right here is exactly why we need to clarify FRINGE. FRINGE is not a license to "call out the fringe-as-fringe" anywhere and everywhere nor is it "baked into NPOV" The FRINGE page itself clearly states "(fringe theories) must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea" and that in articles about a fringe theory to maintain "the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints must be made clear." What it does not say is to go out and shout loudly anywhere and everywhere you can how wrong those theories are. As an example, i give you Nicholas Wade wherein it was argued by multiple editors that Wade's biography must include multiple paragraphs of criticism of his work but not Wade's response to those critics:
a genetic link exists between race and intelligence." :::: here Using FRINGE to coatrack the biography "
Again, i want to emphasize, this is not an article about race and genetics, its an article about Nicholas Wade.Again, I want to emphasize that this argument is a non-sequitur. Our policies on WP:FRINGE and WP:DUE apply to the whole project, just like WP:V, WP:BLP and WP:MPOV do." :::: here "Why on earth would we want to use this BLP as a platform to uncritically present Wade's fringe view that the scientific consensus on race is an
anti-evolutionary myth?"
What we are in danger from, is those who reject the serious consideration of testable theories because they do not like the implications, or the supporters.Bonewah ( talk) 18:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia calls out bonkers ideas out as bonkersEven if it were possible to reliably separate bonkers ideas from merely unpopular ones, you are still incorrect. Wikipedia isnt here to "call out ideas" one way or the other, but to present verifiable information in a neutral fashion. Bonewah ( talk) 19:20, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I do not offer any comments lest it be construed as a PA and redacted. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)It's too early to settle that question. Research in human biology will decide.
include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world(emphasis added). Bakkster Man ( talk) 15:58, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
In other words, fringe material is only included when contextualized properly: fringe-as-fringe. Alexbrn ( talk) 16:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world. [my emphasis]
some editors have misused WP:FRINGE as a justification to violate other Wikipedia policies. I think we all are aware this happens, and there have been several recent discussions about it, including the request to Arbcom in October. Checking that ArbCom request again [6], I do not see any supposed instances of this sort of violation you listed there that weren't thoroughly debunked. I don't doubt that such violations have occurred somewhere, at some point, but citing this embarrassing episode as evidence to support your characterization of what "we are all aware" of shows that your assessment of the issue is untrustworthy. Unless you can come up with a convincing argument that there is a legitimate problem here to be addressed, the impression will remain that this proposal is just another obsessive attempt to find a pretext for reinserting PROFRINGE content into the R&I topic area. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Ferahgo, my earnest suggestion is to drop the stick, because every bit I read from your copious messages just make me think it was a mistake to ever unban you.[10] I’ll leave aside any argument over what CaptainEek and Barkeep49 are referring to in their comments, except to note that neither of them at any point singled me or my edits out for criticism, and indeed neither gave any indication that they had even read my comments. Generalrelative ( talk) 02:49, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Travis Walton UFO incident § Polygraph. Sundayclose ( talk) 00:38, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Both Wikipedia articles and the talk pages here wrestle with the complexities and misuses of the term. This page basically covers "fringe theories" which is a specific subset of "fringe" yet the redirect from the much more heavily used term WP:fringe plus wording in the page itself conflates the two. And so in Wikipedia WP:Fringe often means many things besides fringe theories. A wiki-useful taxonomy of "fringe" might be:
1. Fringe Theories Minority-view statements about potential objective facts
2. Fringe subjective views Anything from action advocacy "we should segregate the USA" to matters of interpretation, e.g. the word "good" in "Hitler was a good person" to widely held views which are out of favor in the current venue
3. Beliefs, legends etc. which are treated as such and not subjected to any scrutiny E.G. "The spirits of our ancestors live in that mountain" or most of religion, or what Santa Claus does and where he lives.
One really can't deal with them without first acknowledging the fundamentally different situations. North8000 ( talk) 20:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Version 2: one response prompted me to clarify a point on rights.
Many new editors including myself have realized that when we bring up certain views or points they are immediately struck down, and I have after reading Arbitration Statement by Cla68 on American Politics 2, @ Cla68, I have been convinced that there needs to be room for minority views as well for WP not to lose new competent editors who want to add value to WP.
Recent good, helpful and insightful conversations with several editors @ Newslinger, @ Doug Weller, @ Dronebogus, @ BusterD, @ Mvbaron, and some naive responses from my side early on, and after also reading Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources I have concluded that wikipedia is only a site for majority views or majority supported views. Especially the Wikipedia:Notability only opens for majority views, or by nature historically research, either governmental funded or journalistic funded, on minority views that has been given enough attention by established institutions would be considered for wikipedia. Maybe I am ignorant here and maybe more criteria apply, please bear with me for my lack of WP understanding. I may propose that WP should not only have room for majority views but also minority views. I will bring up some examples where this has been enshrined in United States law and in United Nations's Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Wikimedia Foundation is incorporated in the US and has to respect to some degree US law and US has also ratified some the human rights [11] of UDHR.
Why is this important, in this topic, because the world is pluralistic, that is one reason EU for instance have adopt conscience laws that grants a mid-wife to exempt from abortions [12] out of conscience, and another reason that in the US military personnel can opt out from certain mandatory medical practices that goes against “Sincerely Held Religious Beliefs” [13], so that the authority often in majority cannot enforce everything they want for various reasons.
Similarly, that people with minority views are respected during some form and some practices in their fields to be able to cooperate with the majority. Recruitment of competent personnel is needed in medical and military fields to sustain fruitfulness and people with very opposing views needs to cooperate for the field to be fruitful which would otherwise suffer.
V2: These points just serve as examples of minority views that has been set by law to make a workplace, here military and medicine examples, open and available for more than the majority. The points shall not be interpreted as the minority has a clear right to propose mandatory content on WP. The aim of the points is to convey that accommodating both views "better" reflect that the world is pluralistic, and that many times the minority view often is less funded and often has less skilled representation since the majority by nature attracts more capital and resources.
Maybe, considering above point and as a proposal then, there should be sections on every article where minority opinions/references should be accommodated to reflect that there are two or more opposing viewpoints on the same article. Those sections should be clearly tagged that they are minority or fringe viewpoints but they still exist. Galileo had at one point in time a minority/fringe view point that the world was round and he paid a heavy price for that. Maybe there are minority viewpoints in WP that are meaningful and attract a large/engaged audience, maybe not the majority, but a large/engaged audience and they should also be accommodated in a meaningful fashion to avoid decreasing editor recruitment. I also believe that not all newcomers can make the points I have just made and if there are other editors that may recognize or identify with these points it would be appreciated if you would let yourself be known.
This text does not claim full saturation or understanding of the problem identified but is an effort to maybe make WP more attractive to a greater editing and reader audience with differing viewpoints.
Now I just added this topic on this talk page where this has been heavily and lengthily discussed already. If this should be put somewhere else please advice me. Edotor ( talk) 13:16, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Claims derived from fringe theories should be carefully attributed to an appropriate source and located within a context—e.g. "There are extreme academic views such as those of Jacques Halbronn, suggesting at great length and with great complexity that Nostradamus's Prophecies are antedated forgeries written by later hands with a political axe to grind." Such claims may contain or be followed by qualifiers to maintain neutrality—e.g. "Although Halbronn possibly knows more about the texts and associated archives than almost anybody else alive (he helped dig out and research many of them), most other specialists in the field reject this view."—but restraint should be used with such qualifiers to avoid giving the appearance of an overly harsh or overly critical assessment. This is particularly true within articles dedicated specifically to fringe ideas: Such articles should first describe the idea clearly and objectively, then refer the reader to more accepted ideas, and avoid excessive use of point-counterpoint style refutations. It is also best to avoid hiding all disputations in an end criticism section, but instead work for integrated, easy to read, and accurate article prose.
a separate WP needs to be created that can accommodate both majority and minority views. Anyone can create an online encyclopaedia, promoting whatever views they like. They can even, subject to following the necessary licensing requirements, copy Wikipedia article content to it. It would not however be Wikipedia, which has long-established policies, established after much debate, about how and when 'minority views' are included in content. And if you wish to argue for a change in such core policies, you will have to come up with more than vague arguments waffling on about 'human rights', which under no circumstances I am aware of include the right to impose specific content on websites you don't own or control. That isn't a 'right', it is an infringement of other peoples rights to determine for themselves what they chose to say for themselves. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 14:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Could we add a sentence in Wikipedia:Fringe theories#Spectrum of fringe theories that says something to the effect that being mistaken isn't the definition of pseudoscience? I worry that editors read this and conclude that bad science (e.g., choosing a bad experimental design, making the all-too-human mistake of over-interpreting your results, being unaware of some critical fact) is pseudoscience. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 00:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
On the imagined scale that has excellent science at one end and then slides through good science, mediocre science (the vast majority of what is done), poor science, to bad science on the other end, it is not the case that pseudoscience lies somewhere on this continuum. It is off the grid altogether.😁 Tewdar 17:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
I am wondering if it may be worthwhile to document a general principle akin to WP:PARITY here about rejoinders. Sometimes I see arguments made that if we include the WP:MAINSTREAM explanation of a WP:FRINGE theory then there is something like a right of reply that the fringe theory advocates have. I am rather of the opinion that if a rejoinder has not been well-cited, it probably does not belong in Wikipedia. This is related to WP:MANDY but it also goes towards a secondary WP:NFRINGE point about replies and replies to replies and replies to replies to replies, etc.
Here's the problem as I see it: Fringe idea is published and gets enough traction to cause a mainstream expert to comment on the topic -- maybe even offer a decent debunking. This, unsurprisingly, riles up the supporters of the idea and they shoot off a reply that often nitpicks about certain details while missing the substantive point of the rejoinder. [[WP:PROFRINGE}] editor insists that we include the reply as a "last word" even as it is unlikely there will be a counter-counter-counterpoint because, well, mainstream experts are typically uninterested in prolonging spats of this nature.
A single sentence about how fringe-inspired rejoinders of debunkings might be worthy of inclusion only if they've been noticed by independent sources would be great. I know it seems like it's already sorta in the guideline, but it's surprising how often this seems to come up.
jps ( talk) 00:38, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Proposed sentence to add to WP:FRIND:
I am trying to stay positive here, describing what generally can be used to source content about fringe theories as opposed to prohibitions. I feel, however, that this sentence makes it clear that if independent sources have not taken notice of a particular source, it's probably not one Wikipedia should use.
jps ( talk) 13:15, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
[16] "Hypotheses which have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect". What is meant by saying that a hypothesis "may contain information"? I would guess that it means the article may contain that information, but simply tacking on "Articles about" at the beginning would make for an awkward sentence. I don't think it's overly bold to try to fix a clear problem with the phrasing. DefThree ( talk) 14:25, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
which have a substantial following. Removing that doesn't just change the readability of the statement but also the substantive advice it's offering. I'm also not convinced that there's anything especially difficult to understand about the sentence as currently written. Yes, it's a bit awkward, but I don't think anyone who understands English will have real trouble discerning its meaning. That said, if you want to offer alternative wordings here on the talk page that improve clarity without interfering with the substance of the guideline, I'd welcome that. Generalrelative ( talk) 14:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
I think that there should be a different treatments for different disciplines. While Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Physiology, Astronomy, etc, are rightful sciences, in the sense that they allow to carry out experiments or observations in a controlled way or with a limited number of parameters, disciplines such as Psychology, Anthropology, Sociology and Economics don't have an equal standing. They are rather "practical philosophies", that have adopted some aspects of the scientific method but which aren't actual sciences because the systems they study are too complex and cannot be studied in isolation. When judged with the standards of actual Sciences, research papers in those disciplines hardly pass the exam. I think that a good test to spot a practical philosophy disguising as science is to check whether there are different "Schools". 2001:B07:ADD:C4B2:444B:5AB9:46AF:46C0 ( talk) 09:16, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
I think fundamentally, all the issues about Fringe Theory articles come down to the tension between the desire to write about the material facts about a given event, and the desire to describe the beliefs that certain people have about those events. I think that to this end, we should try to hammer out a few style and prose guidlines on the subject. Here are my initial inputs and I would like to hear what others have to say.
Collapse lengthy proposal
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Guiding Principles 1.) The article is first and foremost about the beliefs not the events, if the events themselves are noteworthy they should be the name of the article. 2.) The accepted convention should be described in statements of fact, and immediately after the introduction of the idea. 3.) The debunked status of a fringe theory is a matter of opinion, which describes whether or not people believes something. A reliable source which provides counter evidence does not constitute proof that something is debunked. Only the lack of people believing in something can make it debunked. The existence of a persistent group of "believers" means its no debunked. Example, heliocentrism is debunked, flat earth isn't. (Yes I realize that heliocentrism is sometimes a sub-belief of some flat earth cosmologies) 4.) Avoid excessively hypothetical tone. If you can not write about something as a sequence of statements, then don't write about it. Its either a bad thing to write about or too hard for you to write about. 5.) The purpose of the article is not to point and laugh at people who believe silly things. The purpose of the article is to accurately describe what those things are AND WHY THEY BELIEVE THEM. 6.) Descriptions of why people believe something is not, and should not be treated like an argument in its favor. Example: "Some people believe in God because they have personally experienced miracles" should not be followed by a screed about a bunch of hoax miracles. Thats not even a good argument, and its DEFINITELY bad Wikipedia 7.) Do not go out of your way to make it seem any more quackish than it already is. 8.) Conspiracy theorist has become a dirty word, and we should avoid repeating it using more neutral language like "proponents of the theory" etc. This does not mean its not okay to discuss articles or counter claims which refer to these people as conspiracy theorists To that end, I have come up with a hypothetical example. This article is about "Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism" which is a conspiracy about adding cow brains to cheese products to make the consumers more susceptible to mind control. Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism Bovine Cerebro-Dairyism is the belief that commercially available dairy products, particularly cheese, are completely or partially synthesized from the brain matter of cows, rather than their milk. Motivations for doing so vary, though largely relate to altering the protein composition, hormone balance, or psychic susceptibility of the consumer as a means to make the general population more receptive to centralized control. Bovine Cerebro-Dairyism began to circulate in online message board communities in the early 1980's. Estimated figures for views and interactions suggest that approximately 3,000 people regularly participated in online conversations about the topic by 1992 across forums such as chan4, YourSpace, and Yeehaw. In 2004, notable proponents Jackstein Mars and Hannah Banana began appearing on day time television programs, discussing concerns about the general health implications of dairy products on intelligence and life span. By 2005, both figures were publicly associated with Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism, with Mr Mars mentioning his advocacy in a televised interview with NNC on June 14, 2005. In the aftermath of Mr Mars's public appearance, interest and conversation about Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism increased considerably, and discussion became prominent on more mainstream platforms where users other than those at the inception of the internet were more common. The theory, along with a large volume of media circulated heavily. Examples of the circulated media include edited photographs where dairy products and marketing materials were replaced with cow brains, such as Suadeta Mac and Cheese made of yellow brains. As these images began to circulate outside their previously insular communities, they attracted the attention of internet users who appropriated the media for usage in memes and other humorous purposes, which typically featured increasingly graphic, absurd, and surreal depictions of the original theme. Several of these memes were in turned circulated through genuine Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism communities online, thought to be genuine. In 2007, XYZ Television did a brief expose on Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism, as part of a larger series on online dis- and misinformation campaigns. The docu-series received above average critical reviews, though faced criticism from outspoke members of the Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism community for their use of memes which had originated outside the community. These criticism came despite the indistinguishable circulation of these same memes within the criticizing communities. Related Publications In 2006, in response to public sensation, the FDA commissioned and investigation into the safety, sanitation, and processing standards in dairy facilities across the United States. The study concluded that with isolated exceptions of above average euthanasia rates at dairy farms as opposed to meat farms, there was no indication of a general failure to preserve the safety and quality of dairy products in the United States. The publication by the FDA is frequently cited by proponents of Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism as evidence of a general conspiracy to suppress information and conceal the truth about American dairy products. In the study, a sampling of the protein composition of 37 different cheese manufacturers are made, doing mass-spectrograms. This data was revealed to have been borrowed from a study three years prior, which documented the nutritional value of 263 different dairy products. In 59 of these mention is made of a compound listed as BCO, with no further explanation. BCO does not appear on the spectragram data for any of the products in the FDA report, including those from facilities which do list in the prior study. The FDA released a statement several month after the initial releasing, addressing the discrepancy. BCO is an abbreviation for the discontinued anti-clumping agent benzocollaic oliate. BCO was discontinued in 2001 due to its interference with certain preservatives. Due to some of the data being collected prior to 2001, even though the basis study was published in 2003, and the FDA report in 2006, the FDA removed the data points form their report in order to prevent confusion about the presence of the discontinued food additive. Proponents of Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism cite this discrepancy as evidence the FDA is doctoring results and that BCO never existed as all other additive names are spelled out in the report data section. Instead the abbreviation is alleged to be an industry standard meaning "Brains of Cowlike Origin". Food safety experts, and other scientists working outside the FDA and not associated with the Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism community have largely panned the FDA study, referring to it as lazy, unorganized, and in the case of Dr Friedrich Farnes "unconvincing". These public criticism have been cited as evidence that Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism has mainstream scientific support, despite public statements from Dr Farnes stating that this is a misappropriation of his words. In the aftermath of Dr Farnes's public humiliation, general reticence to discuss the study in a critical manner has been cited as a conspiracy to silence the allegedly significant cohort of scientists who support Bovine Cerebro-Dariyism. |
Conclusion
Let me know if you this is a good template for tone and structure for discussing conspiracy theories
> Azeranth ( talk) Azeranth ( talk) 00:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
The existence of a persistent group of "believers" means its not debunked.(I fixed the typo in the quote rather than insert a "sic".) Schazjmd (talk) 00:19, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Schazjmd, you beat me to it. This humdinger defies all logic:
This seems to be an attempt to create a logical wormhole for nonsense to claim legitimacy. That's not going to work. Our PAG are good enough. (I'm really getting tired of this timesink.) -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 05:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Only the lack of people believing in something can make it debunked.This is only true in the Metaverse. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 14:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Azeranth, you "hope that the article would be constructed in such a way..."
Right there we find a conflict between your imagined perfect article and Wikipedia's requirements for article construction.
Editors can read all sources available and construct a complete and perfect article, but for fringe topics it will definitely violate our policies and guidelines.
We are limited to what RS tell us about the fringe POV and thinking, and then what the mainstream POV and thinking are.
We present the subject from the mainstream POV. We do not present the selling points and arguments from the fringe POV. Instead, we present only as much knowledge of that as is revealed by RS.
If you examine several articles on fringe topics, for example pseudoscience and conspiracy theories, you will find widely differing styles, formats, and coverage. That should reflect how RS have covered each topic.
My point? Drop any ideas of the perfect article. Lay out everything RS say about the topic on a table (figuratively) and make the best presentation you can. Keep in mind that advocacy of fringe POV is forbidden. We are not Conservapedia or Fringeapedia. We are a mainstream encyclopedia. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 03:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
References
There is a discussion at RSN that relates to this page; see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Can sources that state that religious miracles actually occurred be reliable sources? BilledMammal ( talk) 13:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Currently,
Wikipedia:FRINGE/PS declares: the universal scientific view is that
perpetual motion is impossible
. This appears to conflate the motion with the machines that are purported to exploit it. As a result, it seems to declare "fringe" such concepts as
inertia (aka
Newton's First Law of Motion), the
eternal inflation of the universe, and
time crystals. This is as ridiculous a claim as the fabled
rockets can't fly in space because there's nothing to push against. –
.Raven
.talk 04:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Interesting source from vice about fringe going mainstream, with the initial subject about JP Sears but goes on to cover others such as Alex Jones, etc. Jtbobwaysf ( talk) 09:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Looks a bit fringey to me. Publications in Medical Hypotheses, involvement with cold fusion. Guy ( help! - typo?) 15:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
It seems to me that Wikipedia science and medicine editors are quite stringent in their interpretation of wp:MEDRS and wp:FRINGE, usually the effect that if a single RS characterizes something as pseudoscientific this is noted in the lede, often in the first sentence or paragraph.
On the whole this is better than the alternative of failing to note questionable practices, but I wonder if it might sometimes mislead lay-readers. Many "alternative" medicine treatments are based on things that are obviously discredited (like "chi" in acupuncture), whereas other things are in the experimental stage, but sources claim are plausible hypotheses inferred from available scientific data (see abductive reasoning).
I am not suggesting that Wikipedia promote mere hypotheses. But I am wondering what policies are in place to distinguish evidence of absence vs. absence of evidence, because these tend to get conflated by laypeople. A good example of this would be the start of the Covid pandemic, when many public health officials stated there was "no good evidence" that mask-wearing was effective (even though it was a reasonable inference based on what we know of viral transmission), and many wrongly concluded from this that masks were not effective. AtavisticPillow ( talk) 14:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What steps do we take to ensure that we do not prevent a modern Galileo from being as badly treated as Galileo was in his time?
If the only theories of quark motion are fringe theories should we not still present the best one as a starting point. Bill field pulse ( talk) 19:15, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
What steps do we takeWell, to begin with, we do not threaten anyone with torture. Second, we do not forbid anyone to publish their theories under threat of death, and third, we do not put anyone under house arrest. Those are pretty efficient in preventing that sort of thing, don't you think? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 09:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
By any chance, does this rule apply to the status of a name? Someone said, "To have North Korea as the title of a document is to treat 'North Korea' as if it were on par with the fact that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is an official country name, which violates the Wikipedia talk: Fringe theories" Mamiamauwy ( talk) 08:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)