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Archive 100 | ← | Archive 103 | Archive 104 | Archive 105 | Archive 106 | Archive 107 | → | Archive 110 |
-- Takabeg ( talk) 15:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
There is a dispute at the dispute resolution noticeboard about the Haven (TV series) article, in particular the references to the works of Steven King that are found in it. At the moment syfy.com is being used to source many of these claims. For instance, " http://www.syfy.com/haven/stephenking" [2], "Derry and the titular Haven are both fictional cities in Maine previously used in the author's stories" [3], and "one of the main characters receives a copy of a novel written by a character from King's novel, Misery". [4] The videos on these pages are being used to back up the claims. From our article on Syfy, it seems that Syfy.com is more notable for publishing original science fiction than for journalism, although I think the fact that Syfy also runs Sci Fi Magazine is a good sign that they have an editorial board which checks facts. I can't find anything about the editorial process at their website though. I would be very grateful for other editors' input on this. Regards — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 10:44, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Two traditional german online music magazines: whiskey-soda [7] and laut.de [8] a reliable source for Tarja Turunen: "This deeper "rock"-sounding voice on Once—as well as on the song "In the Picture" of the album Into the Light—was welcomed by critics as a refreshing change."? -- Pass3456 ( talk) 19:24, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Any help in explaining self-pub problems on Talk:Marian_apparition#Our_Lady_of_Good_Success will be appreciated. I am getting tired of reading policy pages to newbies. Thanks. History2007 ( talk) 08:28, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Is an article from Change.org considered to be a reliable source? The specific article in question is [9]. Angryapathy ( talk) 16:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Is anthonyflood.com a reliable source for this content:
Somedifferentstuff ( talk) 20:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Is the Oxford University Press's Academic Insights for the Thinking World blog acceptable as a reliable source? In particular, content from this contribution which is being discussed at Talk:Teribus ye teri odin. 91.5.39.201 ( talk) 21:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Political Research Associates (Website)seems to be a WP:SPS by Chip Berlet. While his work may be WP:RS when published by a third party, his site is another story. I am somewhat dubious about his reliability when one of the pages labels an individual as a "Fascist Demagogue." Usually highly derogatory labels like that indicate unreliable opinionated websites with agendas. That being said... Looking through the archives here at RSN, there seems be some Wikipedia politics here as well. It seems Mr. Berlett was a Wikipedian at one point and previous discussions in 2007 [10] [11] either included him or a certain banned user. Needless to say Berlett found his site reliable and the banned user found it dubious.
Neither discussion seemed conclusive on the Political Research Associates and mentioned them tangentially rather than specifically. Since 2007, We have tightened many policies involving living person and both editors have left thus the topic seem relevant to raise again. I have ask ya'll is it reliable for our purposes in general and specifically BLPs? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 01:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Someone please remind the editors of The Dating Guy about WP:SPS and claims about third parties. Elizium23 ( talk) 04:10, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Eliziun23, your behavior has been unacceptable and a complaint has now been filed against you at WP:ANI for violations of WP:BITE, WP:BEAR, WP:CANVAS, deliberately filing false allegations of vandalism at WP:AIV, tendentious editing, and inappropriate refusal to behave in a collegial manner in talkpage discussions. HAND.
For My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, the key maintainers of the show's largest fan blog/news site Equestria Daily secured two exclusive interviews with the show's director and associate director. As an SPS, I would normally consider the site unreliable in regards to news posts even though they are accurate (I tried to find collaborating info from more reliable, non-fan sites), but here is material that likely is not going to be found elsewhere (we're talking about a cable show normally for kids that has found a strange internet following, not something on broadcast prime time) and would be useful for expanding the show's development. The interviews as given by the site do have some facts that we know to collaborate with other sites (for example, the interview with creative director Lauren Faust has her tell of how she got involved with the show, which matches 100% in accuracy from a similar statement she made to another, more reliable interviewer/news source several months ago. There is no reason to doubt the ED folks themselves (eg: I don't think they faked the interview, as they have been trustworthy of info in the past, marking rumors/speculation as such, but that's it for their history of fact checking). -- MASEM ( t) 11:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
In this edit 86.135.240.243 has restored a section which shows conversions between the Hebrew calendar and Exigian calendar (whatever that is). There is no citation showing that the Exigian exists, or if it exists, that it is sufficiently widely used to preferred over the Gregorian calendar as a target for conversion. Jc3s5h ( talk) 17:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I want to add content to the above article. I am asking advice on Source A and Source B. Note that both sources cover the same article by the same person, but they are given as two sources because it is published in two different media. Source A is an online forum subject to editor control and discretion. It offers scope for interaction through editor moderated comments and verifiability and fact checking through links and citations. Source B is a mainstream leading newspaper without the extra scope offered by the online source.
Michael Roberts (31 August 2011)"Forbidden Fruits: Niromi de Soyza’s “Tamil Tigress”, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko?", Groundviews
Forbidden Fruits: Niromi de Soyza’s “Tamil Tigress”, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko?
Michael Roberts (September 2011) "Forbidden Fruits? Niromi de Soyza, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko?", The Island.
Source A and B cite and quote two primary sources, Title at Allen and Unwin and, With Niromi de Soyza Thursday 21 July2011 and I have used those quotes too(with inline citations) in order to clearly summarize the relevant arguements contained in Sources A and B.
Market Pitch, Fundamental Error
The dramatic beginning via “The Ambush” is geared to the book’s market pitch. Both the back cover and the cyber-world notices advertising the book tell us that “two days before Christmas 1987, at the age of 17, Niromi de Soyza found herself in an ambush as part of a small platoon of militant Tamil Tigers fighting the government forces that was to engulf Sri Lanka for decades (emphasis mine).”[x] The appeal here highlights the pathos of her journey in life by underlining her youthfulness and placing the encounter just prior to the natal day of Jesus Christ.
But within this little tale within a biographical tale lies a fundamental error. Once the uneasy relationship of ‘alliance’ between the LTTE and the Indian government (the LTTE’s ‘mentor’) unravelled in September-October 1987, the Tigers were engaged in a guerrilla war with the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) in the northern and eastern parts of the island. As the details below reveal, the armed services of the Sri Lankan state (GoSL) were not directly engaged in this war and did not have joint operations with the Indians on the ground. In brief, the December skirmish could NOT have been against Sri Lankan soldiers.
It is not an Allen & Unwin mistake. When de Soyza was interviewed by Margaret Throsby, she remarks “when I joined, the Indian forces had arrived and the Tigers had chosen to fight the Indian forces as well as the Sri Lankan forces.”[xi] Such profound ignorance suggests that she was not in Sri Lanka then and that her tale is a fabrication fashioned without adequate homework.
Dramatic Shifts in the Year 1987
...
Implications
The setting that I have traced above is pertinent to the embellishments in Tamil Tigress, notably the use of Thileepan’s photograph with Muralie beside him – both prominently highlighted in the book as the Tiger officers who enlisted Niromi (Tigress, 66-69), while Muralie was the platoon leader during her first experience of battle. These touches in turn provide a possible explanation for the reasons that induced de Soyza to obscure the fact that this fire-fight was against the IPKF. The alleged autobiography was finalized in 2010/11 in a context where the Western media has targeted Sri Lanka as an Ogre guilty of war crimes. To place Indian troops behind the guns that threatened her platoon would tarnish her goals. These goals include an explicit desire to show Australians that the boat people who had begun to arrive off the coast of their continent were not economic refugees, but worthy asylum seekers fleeing persecution. She told Throsby that her tale was in line with the revelations provided by the Channel Four documentary Killing Fields and the Moon Panel of Experts. “I knew that when the Tamil Tigers were caught by the soldiers those things would happen they would be shot in the head, raped, tortured all of those things …It was nothing new.”[xxii] To complicate this propaganda pitch by placing the IPKF in the first chapter would spoil her intent.
Trivial Errors? Ethnographic Howlers of Profound Import?
While it was the foundational error in describing the context of her first battle experience that raised questions in my mind about the authenticity of de Soyza’s autobiography, there are other tell-tale signs that added to these doubts – as I have remarked in my initial essay on this topic.[xxix] These were minutiae. Again, a range of minute points of error are listed by Arun Ambalavanar when he recently made the suggestion that Tamil Tigress was a “farce.”[xxx] ...
Some of the questions from Ambalavanar which the publishers may regard as trivial objections have the character of “ethnographic queries” in an anthropological sense.
Then another Sri lankan born Australian academic further questioned the appropriateness of classifying Tamil Tigress as Autobiography
The book's classification as Memoir is challenged on ethnographic grounds as well as on the grounds of a foundational error.The foundational error consists of the author's apparent ignorance, persisting to date,of the identity of her adversaries in Combat during the fighting tenure(late 1987 to 1988) attributed to herself in Tamil Tigress. From late July 1987 to early 1990, the signing of the Indo-Sri Lanka Accord and the consequent arrival of the IPKF ensured the withdrawal of the Sri Lankan troops from the Battlefield.
That the Sri Lankan forces stayed clear of direct combat with the LTTE during this period, apart from the limited operations undertaken at sea by the Sri Lankan Navy,is a basic fact, that would have been known to contemporary Tiger fighters of all ranks.
In contrast the blurb of Tamil Tigress announces, “Two days before Christmas in 1987, at the age of 17, Niromi de Soyza found herself in an ambush as part of a small platoon of militant Tamil Tigers fighting government forces in the bloody civil war that was to engulf Sri Lanka for decades…”
In her Margaret Throsby Interview(between 18.45 and 19.02)Niromi says; “…when I joined, the Indian forces had arrived and the tigers had chosen to fight the Indian forces as well as the Sri Lankan forces”
In the same interview(between 35.56 and 36.23),she responds to a question regarding a film, which claims to be a documentary covering the atrocities committed by the Sri Lankan Government Forces during the final stages of the Elam War ;
“Were you able to watch the four corners documentary? “
“I watched it. I forced myself to watch it… It distressed the whole time….I couldn’t sleep that night… but at the same time it wasn’t new. This was something that I knew had happened. I mean I had witnessed much of it and I knew when… the Tamil tigers were caught by the soldiers those things would happen …they would be shot in the head, raped, tortured all of those things. It was nothing new.”
There is thus an attempted projection of Sri Lankan Forces into her fighting experiences, from which they should in reality have been absent. A possible motive for creating this imagined context is given by by Niromi in her Throsby interview(between 35.21 and 35.54);
“…in 2009 when the war …had ended in Sri Lanka and Tamil refugees were still arriving in Australian Shores by the boat and there was a complete misunderstanding , everyone labeling them as economic refugees because, the war had ended. But I knew different… So I thought somebody has to say something… At that time… the UN panel report wasn’t there…, the four corners documentary hadn’t been shown so I thought I needed to put this story out …despite the fact I didn’t want to...I’d felt there was a need….”
my reverted revision diff from current
I hope this is enough information or that it's not too much. Gettingthere ( talk) 08:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Paul B But I no longer want to make a case for Michael Roberts under WP:SPS. Because the self published source which was challenged Roberts Michael, 21August2011, Another Demidenko? Niromi de Soyza as a Tiger Fighter, Thuppahi's Blog has now been rendered unnecessary as that article is now available as a reliable source, in Roberts Michael, 27August2011, A Captivating Fiction with a Political Slant? Niromi de Soyza as Tiger Fighter, Sri Lanka Guardian. It is at present available in Tamil Tigress as a reference. Perhaps as an embellishment I will use Roberts Michael, 21August2011, Another Demidenko? Niromi de Soyza as a Tiger Fighter, Thuppahi's Blog as an external link.
But my querry was not about that. To develop Tamil Tigress further , adding a Controversy section, I claim the following as reliable secondary sources, which analyses the statements contained in the Throsby interview and Tamil Tigress blurb, contrasts them with the actual circumstances prevailing in Sri Lanka due to the Indo Lanka Accord and and forms conclusions i.e.;Market pitch/Fundamental Error, profound ignorance suggestive of non-residence in SL during the relevant period, a fabrication fashioned without adequate homework.
The word "source" in Wikipedia has three meanings: the work itself (a document, article, paper, or book), the creator of the work (for example, the writer), and the publisher of the work (for example, The New York Times). All three can affect reliability.
Policy WP:SOURCES
The word "source" as used on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book), the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work (for example The New York Times, Cambridge University Press, etc.). All three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both.
Guideline WP:IRS
According to the above policy and guideline, A and B count as two sources, because even though it's the same article by the same author two different publishers are involved.
There is some confusion about these sources. Roscelese and Loonymonkey have accused me of original research and synthesis, of using personal analysis of interviews with author to prove she is lying. I think they only went through Roberts Michael, 21August2011, Another Demidenko? Niromi de Soyza as a Tiger Fighter, Thuppahi's Blog, saw no interview excerpts or analysis there and assumed OR.
Since, "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both", let me estasblish Michael Roberts as an authority or expert on the subject. Specially as in accordance with "When taking information from opinion pieces, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint. If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact."- WP:NEWSORG guideline, I want to present his arguements as authoritative statements, not merely as intext attributions.
Michael Roberts [1] [2] was educated at St. Aloysius College, Galle and his B.A degree with honours in History at the University of Ceylon at Peradeniya. He received a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford and attended Merton College while completing his D.Phil in History. [2] He taught at the Department of History at Peradeniya in 1961-62 and from 1966-75. He was Director Dogsbody of the Ceylon Studies Seminar during its halcyon days and one part of the engine room for Modern Ceylon Studies in its early years. [1] He secured an Alexander von Humboldt Fellowship to Germany in 1975 [1] and subsequently joined the Department of Anthropology at the University of Adelaide in 1977, where he is now an Adjunct Associate Professor. He was the founding Editor of Social Analysis in 1979. His Major works include Elites, Nationalisms and the Nationalist Movement in British Ceylon(Colombo: Department of National Archives, 1977); [2] Caste Conflict and Elite Formation: The Rise of a Karava Elite in Sri Lanka, 1500-1931(Cambridge University Press, 1982); [3] [4] People Inbetween: The Burghers and the Middle Class in the Transformations within Sri Lanka, 1790s-1980s, Vol 1 (Colombo:Sarvodaya Press, 1989); [5] Exploring Confrontation. Sri Lanka: Politics, Culture and History(Reading:Harwood Academic Publishers, 1994); [6] Crosscurrents: Sri Lanka and Australia at Cricket, (Sydney: Walla Walla Press, 1998) [7]…
-Taken from the book jacket of Sinhala consciousness in the Kandyan period, 1590s to 1815 [8] [9] with inline citations added by me where appropriate.
While Roberts can be described as a historical anthropologist, the fact remains that all his work engages the political relations of power and that he straddles the disciplines of Politics, Sociology, Anthropology and History. [10]He is a prolific writer and contemporary political commentator on a wide range of subjects.
...Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both
-Guideline WP:IRS
Accordingly I claim A-Michael Roberts (September 2011) Forbidden Fruits? Niromi de Soyza, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko? The Island Part 1, Part 2 . as a source which is reliable on both counts(author+publication) and B- Michael Roberts (31 August 2011) Forbidden Fruits: Niromi de Soyza’s “Tamil Tigress”, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko?, Groundviews as a source which assumes reliablity beacause of the author.
Roscelese has wrongly represented Groundviews as a source falling within WP:NOTRELIABLE
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or which lack meaningful editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional, or which rely heavily on rumor and personal opinion. Questionable sources should be used only as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves; see below. They are unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties.
Groundviews Funding and support
Groundviews was set up under the Voices of Reconciliation Project, conducted by the Centre for Policy Alternatives (CPA) from 2005 – 2006 and funded by CIDA and AusAID. From February 2007 to late 2009, Groundviews did not receive any funding from local or international sources. From late 2010 to date, core operational costs are met by funding from Ford Foundation. The Centre for Policy Alternatives is the institutional anchor for Groundviews, since its inception.
In December 2007, Groundviews was awarded an Award of Excellence in New Communications from the Society for New Communications Research. It is the first and to date only civil society and media web initiative in Sri Lanka to have won a competitive international award for excellence in journalism and media. “Groundviews exemplifies the mission of this awards program: the successful and innovative use of new communications solutions and social media practices to enhance communications and relationships” commented Mike Manuel, SNCR Best Practices committee chairman.
In 2009, Groundviews won the prestigious Manthan Award South Asia. The grand jury’s evaluation of the site noted, “What no media dares to report, Groundviews publicly exposes. It’s a new age media for a new Sri Lanka… Free media at it’s very best!” oops forgot to sign Gettingthere ( talk) 07:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
The prior discussion on this board about the Daily Dot can be found here.
I'm bringing this subject up again not to comment on the news site itself, which has blossomed since the prior section about it into a full news resource for online topics. No, I would like to instead revisit whether the author of certain articles, specifically ones on Encyclopedia Dramatica, can still be considered independent enough to be secondary and whether they might be slightly biased by fraternization. The author in question is Fruzsina Eordogh, who recently made a new article about ED.ch, which can be found here. One of Eordogh's IRC chats on ED.ch was recently unearthed (for full disclosure, by Eric Barbour on Wikipedia Review) and can be found here. Note: Eordogn is the user Zardoz in that IRC chat.
The issue I have with it is that one would expect some amount of professionalism from a reporter trying to write a news story. At some points in that IRC discussion (which appears to not have all comments from other parties in it) she does seem to have that respectability, but at many other points, she seems to be acting rather unprofessional and close to the subjects she's interviewing. It's one thing to be making a joke here and there while conducting an interview, which journalists do a lot of the time, but this seems to be a step beyond that.
What do the editors of RSN think? Silver seren C 15:07, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Silver seren: What sort of outcome are you looking for from this discussion? Are you requesting that articles written for Daily Dot by Fruzsina Eordogh are not reliable? -- Odie5533 ( talk) 04:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I can make neither head nor tail of this discussion, and I find it astonishing that anyone can draw conclusions from the (apparently incomplete -- maybe Zardoz replied publicly to private messages?) IRC log. So I looked at the ED article and searched for the name Brandt. I was shocked to find the server name of a blog mentioned there that contains crass outing information which at least borders on the criminal. There seem to be no explicit rules for dealing with this situation, but IMO this is little better than a link to the blog. I am therefore going to remove it per the spirit of WP:BLP. Hans Adler 06:40, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be many issues here, most outside the scope of this board. I don't see the IRC log as having much, if any, bearing here. Wikipedia editors digging into the primary sources used by secondary sources reeks of WP:OR. If a reporter acting chummy with the locals to get information is all that has been found, this newspaper would seem to be well within the boundaries of ethical behavior. It seems more that the problems here lies in how the source is used on Wikipedia rather than the source itself. The overly detailed coverage of events seems to fall under both WP:WEIGHT (the level of detail gives undue weight to one event within the article) and WP:NOT (the level of detail borders on WP:INDISCRIMINATE and the echoing of hearsay clashes with both WP:GOSSIP and WP:SOAP) as well as WP:BLP issues with hearsay and accusations against named individuals. Siawase ( talk) 11:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
The only reason the article doesn't have both parties is because Daniel Brandt refused to get back to them in time for publishing. Daniel Brandt is blackmailing us, stalking us and even harassing our families. Everything written in the DailyDot article is 100% truth. Brandy spends his days stalking and digging private information on other people, but when someone mentions his name on the Internet suddenly it is a violation of privacy. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander. He uses sites like Hivemind, Josephevers.blogspot and others to publicly invade the privacy of others and has been doing so for years. I can be reached using the email user function if anyone wants to know more. The Daily Dot is a reputable source, they just use a more humorous approach at journalism that is appealing to the Internet generation, while keeping the facts straight. This whole discussion is because Brandt didn't like the facts that were written in the article, so he asked silversion or whatever his name is to dispute it. It's all on Wikipedia Revue (Or at least it was, I am sure it has been deleted by now, as that is Brandts MO). -- Zaiger ( talk) 03:17, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to ensure that this is a reliable source. - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 19:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
It is WP:RS. That said, I find almost so source which is always reliable when it comes to "celebrity gossip" etc. - even the New York Times is errant on such fluff. In fact, I think "sensational gossip' in toto whould be bareed from any BLP articles. Period. Collect ( talk) 21:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to take a moment and ask you to look at this poll concerning the use of Equestria Daily as a legitmate source.
Thanks, Rainbow Dash !xmcuvg2MH 00:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
The author in question is the late Russian-American journalist Paul Klebnikov who wrote a highly critical article in Forbes about the Jewish-Russian tycoon Boris Berezovsky entitled 'Godfather of the Kremlin?' with the kicker 'Power. Politics. Murder. Boris Berezovsky could teach the guys in Sicily a thing or two.' In response, Berezovsky sued Forbes in the UK. The case was settled after Forbes agreed to publish the following retraction: 'On 6 March 2003 the resolution of the case was announced in the High Court in London. FORBES stated in open court that (1) it was not the magazine's intention to state that Berezovsky was responsible for the murder of Listiev, only that he had been included in an inconclusive police investigation of the crime; (2) there is no evidence that Berezovsky was responsible for this or any other murder; (3) in light of the English court's ruling, it was wrong to characterize Berezovsky as a mafia boss.( http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0331/022.html )
When Klebnikov was murdered in 2004 obituaries in the Guardian ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/jul/16/guardianobituaries.pressandpublishing ) and Independent ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/paul-klebnikov-550099.html ) noted a strain of anti-semitism in his reporting of prominent Jewish figures such as Berezovsky. Anna Isakova wrote in Haaretz: 'In Klebnikov's book, Berezovsky is depicted as a leech that depleted the homeland of all its riches. He represents absolute evil and is the primary enemy of the people... Klebnikov sees malicious damage in Berezovsky's every action. Although Klebnikov assiduously avoids the word "Jew," an aroma of old, almost religious, anti-Semitism emerges from each page in the book.'( http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/ogling-the-moguls-1.144261)
The question, which has been hotly debated in the talk page of the Berezovsky article and led to an edit war and the article being locked, is whether Klebnikov's writings can be considered to be a RS on Berezovsky.-- Kolokol1 ( talk) 16:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
comment: If the article was retracted, I would be very careful about citing significant content to it. It's not up to us to sift through the reasons for retraction and determine that such was done for illegitimate reasons. If the content in the article is worthy of inclusion, there should be other secondary sources which discuss it. Those should generally be used instead. If there are no such other sources, it may be possible to include the fact that such an article was written and retracted, with a one sentence description of what the content covered. aprock ( talk) 17:09, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
In response to the matters raised:
BTW, I should say that I am connected to Berezovsky and, since the libel issue is involved, at the request of a WP administrator I have declared that I have no intention of taking any legal actionAgainst WP or its editors over this matter, per WP:NLT#Perceived legal threats.-- Kolokol1 ( talk) 10:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Now i have brought this here because not every author on both websites list their credentials, the four above are reliable but I'm not sure if their credentials are enough to deem both websites reliable. They cross promote each other because one is a pop website and the other is rock. I also brought this here because they are self published, they have no backing like The New York Times as their publisher. So with all that said, please share your thoughts and lets get a consensus. (FYI these sources need to meet WP:GA standard if you agree with me that they are reliable.) - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 07:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Is ChannelAPA.com a reliable source, particularly http://www.channelapa.com/2011/04/to-whom-it-may-concern-ka-shens-journey-nancy-kwan-documentary.html? Cunard ( talk) 09:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
This source is given in the The Galloping Ghost (airplane) article, along with another one from the same website. I can find no reason why this website would be considered reliable, unless it's somehow a primary source for the Air Show, which I missed somehow? Silver seren C 17:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I think this site is nothing but unconfirmed speculation, and should not be used as it was used here. Jasper Deng (talk) 03:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
The site is run jointly by Everton and Martin:
EVERTON BLAIR
Everton is based in London and has worked in the internet and mobile space for over ten years now, and before that worked in corporate strategy and consulting. He has a degree in Economics from Cambridge University, and currently runs the Portal and online operations for one of the largest ISPs in the UK. He also writes for Windows 7 News, Connected Internet and One Tip A Day.
You can read all of Everton’s posts here.
MARTIN BRINKMANN
Martin Brinkmann is an Online Journalist from Germany who discovered his love for technology in high school. He is currently working as a freelancer for several publications and runs his own Internet website Ghacks
You can read all of Martin’s posts here.
An editor has deleted the information that I added from these sources, saying they are all "self published".
Yes, my statement that the sources were under SPS may have been in error, however, sources that 'guess' about the respondent's statements is the real issue. Dreadstar ☥ 06:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Based on a recent change of the year when Prof. Feigenbaum received his Ph.D in the article on Edward Feigenbaum, I found some conflicting references. So I send an email to the Mathematics Genealogy Project how they came to their year 1960, although different other good references mentioned 1959. I received a confirmation from their source that "Prof. Feigenbaum received his degree in 1960 although he completed and likely defended his thesis in 1959", based on checking the two copies the Hunt library has of the Ph.D dissertation of Prof. Feigenbaum.
Dougweller ( talk) suggested to check here if the used sources are ok. Mitch Keller from the Mathematics Genealogy Project was mentioning in his email the primary sources ProQuest Dissertations and Theses and the Carnegie Mellon University Library Catalog. Both are telling 1960 as the year for Feigenbaum's Ph.D. Are this considered reliable sources for Wikipedia? If yes, has somebody of you access to the ProQuest database to provide me the full reference details? I have no access :( So I can update the article. -- SchreyP ( messages) 18:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Is Galili, Shooky (July 4, 2007). "Falafel fact sheet". Ynet News. Retrieved February 6, 2011 considered to be a reliable source to support and conclude the statement, “Israeli entrepreneurs brought falafel to Europe and the United States sometime in the 1970s”, found in the article Falafel? The source itself does not cite any studies, scholarly consensus, or historical fact. Moreover, the writer of the article has no expertise in the field of the expansion of cuisine into other counties. From Galili, Shooky‘s own bio, he is rather a Content Specialist & SEO Consultant with a background in IT and a BA, Bsc, in Political Science & Computer Science. This concerns a discussion to strike the sentence from the article as argued in the discussion page Talk:Falafel - Subheading "Dispute over statement, "Israeli entrepreneurs brought falafel to Europe and the United States sometime in the 1970s.[7]" and citation". Please weigh in. Thanks. Veritycheck ( talk) 12:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I know, IMDB is sometimes reliable and sometimes not. So, specifically, an editor wants to use this IMDB entry to add info to the Dustin Diamond article to verify that he released a sex tape. My feeling is that this particular IMDB entry is so sloppy and incomplete it's not good enough, especially given that this is a BLP. The editor provided other sources, but the rest all seem to be blogs and wikis; you can see them in this diff. For me, none of those sources rise to the level needed to include negative info in a BLP. But I invite other eyes. Qwyrxian ( talk) 23:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi folks. I'm working on an article for the new library in Surrey, British Columbia and I came across an article on the above site that has a lot of good info. Was hoping to get some input on "ArchDaily" before I used it, perhaps someone is familiar. Article: [17] About page: [18] Thanks, The Interior (Talk) 22:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
One editor claimed to me that VentureBeat, though it describes itself as a blog, qualifies more as a "news blog". Specifically, the question is whether it is okay as a reliable source for reviewing the quality of another website (see this edit, where I self-reverted my removal of the source). I found a discussion in the RSN archives from March 2011 that indicated that it may be reliable in some cases. Any opinions? Qwyrxian ( talk) 03:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I just restored an edit of a critisim section regarding a California Jewish day school. The section sources to the series of articles on the blog of a rabbi in that community. As a prominent community leader I think that Fisher's statements regarding the school are notable but I'm unsure of the use of his blog as the source. What are thoughts here? Joe407 ( talk) 04:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
In July 2010 Rabbi Dov Fischer, in his role as Assistant Director of the David Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies , published an extensive analysis criticizing the school's academic program. In his analysis, Fischer continued expressing the deep dismay he published in 2008 regarding the school's "institutional failure to achieve the results charted at leaner, more modestly funded Jewish Day Schools operated throughout America under Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox auspices." Fischer's critique criticized the school's ongoing track record, claiming that it does not meet its mission as a community Jewish Day School because of failures in inculcating grade-appropriate Hebrew reading-and-writing skills, meaningful student acquaintance with the Jewish prayer book, and a foundational knowledge in Chumash and Bible studies.
Is there some reason why, after asking an initial question or starting a discussion on this board, some editors just disappear, and follow-up questions don't get answered before the discussion is shuffled off to the archives? Can someone please respond to my question from September 7 above? The discussion is not closed, and it's been two weeks. Nightscream ( talk) 13:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Going by Wikipedia:NEWSBLOG, blogs can be varying in their reliability. How should this apply to New York Times blogs? It's coming up for me now with Paul Krugman's blog. Certainly, most of his blog posts should be considered opinion pieces, and referenced as such if they're used at all. But, are they under the editorial control of the NYT, or does the NYT just provide the platform that Krugman uses? I don't see an easy way to identify that on the blog page itself. CRETOG8( t/ c) 20:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
An editor who joined a talk page discussion through a request for a third opinion has suggested that the reliable sourcing guidelines for medical articles is appropriate for Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence (see talk page discussion here: [20]). In particular, the editor is suggesting that WP:RSMED#Use_up-to-date_evidence is applicable. That guideline states: "Here are some rules of thumb for keeping an article up-to-date, while maintaining the more-important goal of reliability. These instructions are appropriate for actively researched areas with many primary sources and several reviews and may need to be relaxed in areas where little progress is being made or few reviews are being published." The subject area of Jewish IQ is generally a sparsely studied one with significant papers on the topic being published at a rate of 1-3 per decade.
It seems to me that this is not an appropriate use of WP:RSMED. Do others agree? aprock ( talk) 21:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
This book, is written by David Dean Shulman who is an academic and the book is published by an academic press. But it is written as a first person memoir, not an academic work with citations and footnotes, and is not in Shulman's academic area of expertise. Can it be used unattributed for statements of fact? The relevant article is Ezra Nawi. No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 08:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
'Can it be used for statements of fact?'
According to Shulman, Palestinians at Um al-Kheir, which lies a few meters from rows of red-roofed settler villas at Carmel, require building permits for any house construction or extensions to their tents or shacks. Such permits are almost impossible to obtain since on average, in the West Bank area administered by Israel, Area C, only one is released per month by the Israeli Civil Administration for the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian residents there.
User MehranVB and user In_fact, have been trying to add questionable and self-published sources to Mohammad Ala entry, which is also nominated for deletion. Please remind them that websites such as persiangulfstudies.com and www.stiltij.nl are not reliable sources. One is a shady "martial arts" / "meditation" site and the other is a questionable, self-published site. Thanks. -- Marmoulak ( talk) 18:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I am seeking clarification re: a BLP. A google search of "Skip Hollandsworth" resulted in 8,940 results, one of which is this result: http://www.elliscountyobserver.com/2011/08/22/texas-monthly-editor-skip-hollandsworth-pleads-guilty-to-dwi-receives-probation/
The editor of the Ellis County Observer (above) states that "this was actually Brandon P. Reed and The Daily Phalanx‘ story originally."
The article above provides this link http://www.dallascounty.org/criminalBackgroundSearch/ which when the name Hollandsworth is entered leads to a public record providing details about this person's DWI-2nd guility plea.
The individual co-wrote the upcoming Jack Black, Matt McConahay (sp?) film "Bernie," and won the National Magazine Award, the most prestigious award in magazine journalism in 2010.
Having established that he is a national celebrity, I verified the information about the DWI-2nd, not in an effort to do original research, but to verify the public information pubished in the Ellis County Observer.
Is this a violation of BLP? If so, my apologies. My opinion is that if the information is published elsewhere and then verified by an editor, then this is not a violation of the BLP policy. But I am not as knowledgeable about the issues.
Thank you.
The article List of avant-garde films of the 1990s uses the website http://www.allrovi.com/ as its only source. Is this site considered reliable for determining film genres? In particular, is it a reliable enough source to justify calling Delicatessen a "surrealist film"? Is it a reliable source for defining what is and is not an avant-garde film? --- RepublicanJacobite TheFortyFive 16:59, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
There is a source cited that puts the percentage of Christians in Egypt at 18%, which contradicts numerous other sources which puts it at a maximum of 10%.
From the Egypt article:
There is a significant Christian minority in Egypt, who make up between 5% and 18%[110][111] of the population.
The source cited: David B. Barret, ed. World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Study of Churches and Religions in the Modern World (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1982), p. 2740.
I tried to search for it, but all i could find is that apparently the World Christian Encyclopedia does not even contain 2740 pages.
Can anyone help?
There is currently a discussion on the Nazism talk page in were I am being told the following sources are A - No good. Or B - I am quoting out of context. Are the following sources reliable? And am I correct in my quotes?
Andrew Lancaster has, I believe, put his finger on the problem. The 'socialism' the Nazis practiced essentially destroyed the key doctrine of socialism as classically understood and practiced, since it excluded whole sectors of the community, homosexuals, the crippled, the foreigner, the internal communities of Jew and gypsy. 'Socialism' embraced differences where Nazism repudiated them on behalf of a corporativist race. By this logic, since Roosevelt's New Deal, as indeed Hoover charged, would bes fascist (interchangeable with Nazist later on). These fine distinctions are widely discussed in the historical literature, and to ignore contexts and tamper with language is to risk seeding a variety of American right-wing anti-state rhetoric (liberalism=socialism= communism= nazism=totalitarianism) and the dull thud of its concocted verbal drumbeat into articles. Nishidani ( talk) 19:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Use of Business Insider has been questioned before, reinforcing these concerns Marco.org (blog) indicates that Business Insider commonly recycles blogs while giving the impression that these are staff articles: obviously unreliable and something to watch out for. Of course the original linked blogs themselves might be usable if they're by a recognised expert, subject to the usual restrictions on using blogs, but citations to Business Insider should evidently be treated with caution. An AP blog comments on its recycling of other stories. . dave souza, talk 17:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Editors are removing reliably sourced information from the Boris Berezovsky article, and on the talk page seem to indicate that it is a WP:BLP violation. Can uninvolved editors take a look at Talk:Boris_Berezovsky_(businessman)#Use_of_libel_tourism.2Fterrorism and opine over there. There appears to be gaming going on to keep relevant information out of an article. Appreciate any input on the talk page. Thanks, Russavia Let's dialogue 20:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
The issue appears to be one related to whether material not directly related to the person should be in his BLP - " Libel tourism" might be a separate article at some point, and the material is clearly relevant to such an article. The issue, moreover, is not one of "reliable sources" but whether an article saying that a libel suit (won by the person) should be deprecated as being won due to something somehow improper in choosing a venue. The clear consensus of editors at the page, moreover, runs contrary to Russavia's assertions, now made on a great many noticeboards. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
In this discussion, accomplished real life historian User:Rjensen makes the assertion that because American Heritage magazine isn't a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, and because one author asserting a point within is a journalist and novelist (not a professional historian like himself), the source is "dubious." I'd like opinions on the subject. I certainly agree the journal isn't as scholarly as it used to be under Bruce Catton, but can't see it as a dubious source unworthy of use on Wikipedia. BusterD ( talk) 21:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I believe that writers for the American Heritage Magazine are reliable. However, I am for Wikipedia editor consensus on how much weight a particular article writer has at American Heritage Magazine and in the general academic community. If Wikipedia editors, not one editor, are not in consensus over a source from American Heritage Magazine, then I agree that the source, even if reliable, could be excluded from a Wikipedia article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 23:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
When used as a secondary source for reporting (as opposed to opinion pieces), American Heritage Magazine is generally reliable. aprock ( talk) 01:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
from this section of the article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory#Extension_to_Zionism_and_Noahidism
currently source #26
it looks like a webpage that someone knocked up in their bedroom. Vexorg ( talk) 02:59, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
What is the policy regarding sport commentators as reliable sources? The case in question involves the match commentators for the Canberra Roller Derby League who did the 24 September match between the Brindabelters, and the Black and Blue Belles. They did the stadium commentary, and their commentary is what will be used when the match is replayed on local television. They provided information about team records, when they came into existence, new skaters, etc. Would the match commentators be reliable sources about the league, the teams, the players and the referees? -- LauraHale ( talk) 11:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Note also strong copyright claims made by almost every sports league that the commentary is provided "solely for the entertainment of viewers only and may not be redistributed in any way" or the like. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:07, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
(
edit conflict) :No such commentary appears on on televised rebroadcast of matches on ChannelVision and no such claims were made in person. There were no statements regarding things being copyrighted and people were encouraged to take a lot of pictures. No such claim appears in the program guides. Given both, does that impact the reliable source issues as it pertains to my specific situation of wanting to use match official match commentary, which will be rebroadcast in full on television and in part on ChannelVision's website, as a source on the
Canberra Roller Derby League article? --
LauraHale (
talk) 12:15, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Is this source "Boldur-Lăţescu, Gheorghe (2005) The communist genocide in Romania Nova Science Publishers ISBN 978-1594542510" reliable for this content inclusion?
The Piteşti Experiment has been described as a crime against humanity.
The editor who has removed it has not used the talk page although I have started a section for this [24] The Last Angry Man ( talk) 12:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
WP:RS does not say "only approved correct articles are reliable" that I can find. Academic press = reliable source. Nor does WP:RS state "books printed in the wrong country are not reliable" either. Rather than exclude the source, those who dispute its words should find other reliable sources per WP:NPOV. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 14:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
[31] seems fairly clear - comparing the acts to executions. [32] does not view it favourably either. [33] etc .... I find not a single cite which could conceivably be used to attach any "nice" adjectives to the experiment. But heck -- the NYT is generally accepted as RS [34]. The final report is long and occasionally lurid. One chapter recounts the chilling Pitesti experiment, in which young political prisoners were systematically tortured and subjected to brainwashing techniques by other prisoners in order to destroy their sense of self and replace it with loyalty to the state. The report charges the Communist authorities with crimes against humanity and puts responsibility for the misdeeds primarily on the party and its secret service, the Securitate. Seems that would be a nice item to insert in the article, no? Cheers. Collect ( talk) 23:49, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Let me point your attention at the fact that the Crime against humanity, like genocide is a legal term, therefore, we can speak about some misdeed as about this type of crime only if some court will make such a decision. This is a difference between this term and, for instance, the term "atrocity", or "torture". Therefore, the statement we discuss is incomplete. It is supposed to contain a name of some concrete court that come to such a conclusion. In other words, the statement should look like this:
In connection to that, does the source we discuss contain the reference to any court decision? --
Paul Siebert (
talk) 00:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Is there a list of possible unreliable sources available for editors to use so they can be aware of website citations they may want to double check for credibility? I've created http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Flagged_sources as a sample of what an idea like this might start out as. Eventually, there would be a browser gadget, like "Proveit", or added onto "Proveit" to notify an editor when they are citing a site which may not be reliable or credible. This gives the editor a hint to check it over before submitting it. We will never keep up with all the self-published SEO content sites, but we may be able to make editor's lives easier if we can catch some of the larger ones.
If the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Flagged_sources page is not in the right place, please move it. Jjk ( talk) 01:15, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
[ [35]] It is stated "Fatou K. Camara, such statics are misleading. In her papers "Secularity & Freedom of Religion in Senegal Between a Constitutional Rock and a Hard Reality" and "Moving from Teaching African Customary Laws to Teaching African Indigenous Law", she provides a different statics" Is this person in a position to be included in an article on stats when she is the only one completely re-representing stats? I think their is too much weight to be used. It is also a FRINGE sentiment unique to her.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 09:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
In this article there is a section sourced exclusively to a blog. [37] I removed this section per WP:RS but it was reverted back in. Does the blog Pharyngula qualify as a reliable source. Note it is also used to support this statement about BLP`s "it isn't a real science journal at all, but is the ginned-up website of a small group of crank academics" It strikes me as a BLP violation to use a blog to call people cranks. Darkness Shines ( talk) 20:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
And whilst here is this a reliable source? [38] Darkness Shines ( talk) 20:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Thong Media seems like a web-2.0-ified press release agency focusing on television shows and particularly reality television shows. Their about page makes this clear. I'm a little concerned that thong seems to be being used on pages like The Apprentice New Zealand (season one) as the sole source of information. (a) Am I right in thinking that Thong neither third party for the purposes of notability? (b) Am I right in thinking that articles in other places with textual similarity (i.e. cut and paste) to Thong articles are also not third party for the purposes of notability? (c) Am I right in thinking that the other places carrying the articles with textual similarity don't count as third party for the purposes of notability, by virtue of carry the articles with textual similarity? Stuartyeates ( talk) 23:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Is http://persianempire.info/ a reliable source to be used in Surena? Thanks. In fact ( contact ) 12:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Iranian.com has a blog section and a regular section with articles in it. Are the articles in its Op-Ed section [41] considered reliable sources? They divide things into "news" which just links to a different site with a summary of a news item, "blogs" which are personal blogs apparently anyone can post whatever they want in, and "articles" which I believe should count as reliable sources. Someone has to approve these, so it has editorial oversight, and the people chosen seem to have backgrounds in their field of expertise. Note, the other sections on the site aren't in English so I'm not bothering asking about them. Dream Focus 02:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
The article on the English Defence League contains several references from the Searchlight Magazine I don't feel this is appropriate as the magazine on its own website that it is the magazine of Hope not Hate and that it also states on one of it articles "It’s time to act against the EDL" which I would say it is not a NPV C. 22468 ( talk) 17:17, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
( edit conflict):::::::We get the point, you don't like it, no need to bold. A lot of sites we use are pov in their reporting, eg many newspapers have a political leaning. I presume you mean contentious claims, but I don't see why a contentious claim should rule them out just because no other source are making them, we'd need to take that case by case. Dougweller ( talk) 20:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
For undoubted fact - maybe. Opinions (which dominate the article) are, however, only opinions, and should, as always, be clearly marked as such. O2rr is correct. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 20:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I have just been told that this source, Edwards, Lee (2000) The collapse of communism Hoover Institution Press (2000) ISBN 978-0817998127 ppXIII is not a reliable source for the statement that 100 million died under communism as the author did not provide a citation for this. "Communism, the dark tyranny that controlled more than forty nations and was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 100 million victims during the twentieth century" Does an obviously reliable source really need it`s own reliable source? The Last Angry Man ( talk) 00:24, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
It's quite another to ascribe a death toll to an ideology. How does one attribute a death to "communism"? Were the people killed in the Russian Civil War, or the Spanish, victims of "Communism" (as opposed to a struggle between Communism and other ideologies)? If one applied similar metrics, how many victims would be attributable to "free-market capitalism", or even "libertarianism"?
It's an inherently arbitrary and politicized question - and the Hoover Institution is political. It's a retirement home for old Cold Warriors, with a strong and overarching conservative ideology. That certainly doesn't invalidate it as a reliable source, but it does argue in favor of in-text attribution. MastCell Talk 20:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I essentially agree MastCell. Even if you consider the book formally as RS for most of its content, it should be obvious that there are better sources for such claims, that can and should be used instead. Hoover Institution Press hardly looks like anything you'd call a reputable publisher, instead use well known academic publishers such as Springer, Wiley, Kluwer etc. or some university press as far as books are concerned. Or use some peer reviewed academic journal articles that have dealt with this particular question in detail.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 01:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the use of fringe sources to debunk mainstream research. Correlation is the main point of concern. What do you folks think of its reliability and usability in terms of WP:UNDUE. -- Daniel 20:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
People, be aware of off-site recruitment regarding the astrology articles in general and the Carlson study in specific. [44] Since last spring there has been a steady influx of single-purpose editors. The article has slowly turned into a lengthy apology for Western astrology. Skinwalker ( talk) 23:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing in the article to suggest that astrology is an actual science. You are confusing the terminology applied to the subject, and the description made of it, with the terminology applied to the statistically analysis that has been made of it. The article reports those studies objectively, as it should, presenting the criticisms of both sides. The results are not persuasive one way or another. In your desire to ensure that the claims of astrologers are not given any coverage in this article about astrology, you removed the entire section relating to the studies of Gauquelin. Though these make no major claims in favour of astrology at the end of the day, the story and the details of Gauquelin's work, the controversy attached to it and the discussions that extend from it, are of pivotal interest to the modern history of astrology. Wikipedia would become a laughing stock to censure such highly relevant content as this.
And sorry, but nothing has been appropriately restored. In the space of a few hours, with this request for noticeboard clarification not yet half a day old, and with less than 300 words of discussion on the talk-page, Dominus Vobisdu and 3 other editors have removed almost 1000 words of highly significant content supported by 30 reliable references. Not discriminately or critically - just deleting whole passages with their accompanying references. This is content that has been developed cautiously by a wide-ranging team of editors, with great regard to the relevant WP policies. It is clearly marked on the talk page that the subject of the page is controversial and substantial changes should be undergo discussion and evaluation before being introduced on the main page. This is the policy that the contributing editors inherited and have been restrained by.
As I mentioned earlier, this is NOT constructive editing. I have recommended that the content be restored to what it was before these policy-breaking edits, so that any point that has been ruthlessly erased, is subject to the proper process that the policy of the page dictates. -- Zac Δ talk! 05:54, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I am the current editor of Correlation, the journal of research in astrology that has been referred to as a fringe journal because, it is alleged, it is a journal of pseudo-science as defined by Wikipedia. Correlation is a journal of research in astrology and publishes material that has been peer reviewed by mainstream academics with a good understanding of astrology as applied to science and the humanities where the material submitted applies astrology to that particular academic’s specialist field of interest. The journal also publishes reports from researchers about ongoing projects. It publishes comments from readers on papers that have appeared within its pages and it has a Letters page for critical comment of any part of its published content and to encourage objective intellectual exchange. It has also published material of a philosophical nature in order to encourage scientific and sociological research, which includes statistical analysis, and new approaches in thinking to the ever-present challenge of designing good studies that are appropriate to the research question. The journal aims to inform its readers on research matters and to encourage its readers to express their opinions within the journal in order to promote balanced and informed thinking in any issue that relates to research in astrology. The peer review process seeks to ensure a high standard is maintained within the journal pages where these matters are concerned. That which is defined as pseudo is that which is false, counterfeit, pretended or spurious as in the case of scientific claims, for example. The journal, Correlation is, therefore, not a pseudoscientific journal.
Pat Harris, PhD, MSc., DFAstrolS., Editor, Correlation.
Correlation does not publish religious articles. Articles are sent to peer reviewers with an understanding of astrology in their specialist field of interest. Peer reviewers hold a neutral outlook with regard to the potential value of astrology in the sciences and the humanities. A list of consultant editors who contribute to the peer review process is published on the inside cover of every issue of the journal. Pat Harris, Editor, Correlation.
My PhD was awarded in 2006 but completed in 2005 and the ceremony took place at the University of Southampton in 2007. I was supervised within the Deparmtent of Social Statistics and my examiners were situated there and also in the Department of Social Work Studies. This is not relevant to the discussion, here, but I hope you find the information helpful. Correlation is available on line at the website of the Astrological Association which publishes the journal. You will find the list of the consultant editors within its pages. Perhas you would now like to provide some information about yourself? Pat Harris, Editor, Correlation.
People are reverting the changes, and I can see where they would be disturbed by wholesale deletion. I would suggest that we focus more on attribution and less on deletion (I deleted things wholesale too, but maybe that isn't the right approach). I'm sure some things will get deleted, but I'm also not sure if some of the deleting editors were acknowledging that astrological sources are RS for astrological beliefs. Be——Critical__ Talk 14:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
It was another deletion that flounced WP policy. This should be clear enough to anyone who contributes to the discussion page (see Talk:Astrology#Achieving Neutrality).
The original request concerned the appropriateness of quoting from Correlation. The hoped for clarity on that point got waylaid by uncritical deletions which didn’t distinguish whether real problems existed, and if they did, whether they concerned neutrality, objectivity, undue weight, or the reliability of the sources. The point made in this notice board is that reliability is often dependent upon context. The editors that have contributed to the astrology article have been working to a plan (established in earlier discussions that have now rolled off the discussion page), to have the content critically reviewed. Though the article is not ready for that formal request, sceptical editors have had an involvement in the process of development, and even invited to comment when they have gone quiet, because there is an objective to resolve long term problems and develop the article to FA status. It’s not the case that a group of editors are trying to push a position, but if you consider how evocative this subject is, you might appreciate how much work has to go into getting the balance of the content right.
In response to the controversies this discussion triggered, I’ve initiated a procedure on the talk page to ensure that all of the passages that drew attention are systematically analysed and rewritten, if and where necessary, to achieve a robust consensus on neutrality. This will help to distinguish between criticisms based on what the content is saying and those which concern reliability of sources. I believe it is only the latter that is of direct relevance to this particular board, so it doesn't seem helpful to confuse various issues here. Therefore, I am recommending that this particular discussion is brought to a close, so attention can be focussed on the necessary analysis. If the criticism of any comment ultimately hinges on doubts concerning the reliability of its source – then that particular source should be brought for review here, so it can be specifically discussed, in context, without having to carry the weight of non-essential side-issues that range from the existence of angels to where and when the editor of Correlation received a PhD. -- Zac Δ talk! 22:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 100 | ← | Archive 103 | Archive 104 | Archive 105 | Archive 106 | Archive 107 | → | Archive 110 |
-- Takabeg ( talk) 15:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
There is a dispute at the dispute resolution noticeboard about the Haven (TV series) article, in particular the references to the works of Steven King that are found in it. At the moment syfy.com is being used to source many of these claims. For instance, " http://www.syfy.com/haven/stephenking" [2], "Derry and the titular Haven are both fictional cities in Maine previously used in the author's stories" [3], and "one of the main characters receives a copy of a novel written by a character from King's novel, Misery". [4] The videos on these pages are being used to back up the claims. From our article on Syfy, it seems that Syfy.com is more notable for publishing original science fiction than for journalism, although I think the fact that Syfy also runs Sci Fi Magazine is a good sign that they have an editorial board which checks facts. I can't find anything about the editorial process at their website though. I would be very grateful for other editors' input on this. Regards — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 10:44, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Two traditional german online music magazines: whiskey-soda [7] and laut.de [8] a reliable source for Tarja Turunen: "This deeper "rock"-sounding voice on Once—as well as on the song "In the Picture" of the album Into the Light—was welcomed by critics as a refreshing change."? -- Pass3456 ( talk) 19:24, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Any help in explaining self-pub problems on Talk:Marian_apparition#Our_Lady_of_Good_Success will be appreciated. I am getting tired of reading policy pages to newbies. Thanks. History2007 ( talk) 08:28, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Is an article from Change.org considered to be a reliable source? The specific article in question is [9]. Angryapathy ( talk) 16:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Is anthonyflood.com a reliable source for this content:
Somedifferentstuff ( talk) 20:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Is the Oxford University Press's Academic Insights for the Thinking World blog acceptable as a reliable source? In particular, content from this contribution which is being discussed at Talk:Teribus ye teri odin. 91.5.39.201 ( talk) 21:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Political Research Associates (Website)seems to be a WP:SPS by Chip Berlet. While his work may be WP:RS when published by a third party, his site is another story. I am somewhat dubious about his reliability when one of the pages labels an individual as a "Fascist Demagogue." Usually highly derogatory labels like that indicate unreliable opinionated websites with agendas. That being said... Looking through the archives here at RSN, there seems be some Wikipedia politics here as well. It seems Mr. Berlett was a Wikipedian at one point and previous discussions in 2007 [10] [11] either included him or a certain banned user. Needless to say Berlett found his site reliable and the banned user found it dubious.
Neither discussion seemed conclusive on the Political Research Associates and mentioned them tangentially rather than specifically. Since 2007, We have tightened many policies involving living person and both editors have left thus the topic seem relevant to raise again. I have ask ya'll is it reliable for our purposes in general and specifically BLPs? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 01:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Someone please remind the editors of The Dating Guy about WP:SPS and claims about third parties. Elizium23 ( talk) 04:10, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Eliziun23, your behavior has been unacceptable and a complaint has now been filed against you at WP:ANI for violations of WP:BITE, WP:BEAR, WP:CANVAS, deliberately filing false allegations of vandalism at WP:AIV, tendentious editing, and inappropriate refusal to behave in a collegial manner in talkpage discussions. HAND.
For My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, the key maintainers of the show's largest fan blog/news site Equestria Daily secured two exclusive interviews with the show's director and associate director. As an SPS, I would normally consider the site unreliable in regards to news posts even though they are accurate (I tried to find collaborating info from more reliable, non-fan sites), but here is material that likely is not going to be found elsewhere (we're talking about a cable show normally for kids that has found a strange internet following, not something on broadcast prime time) and would be useful for expanding the show's development. The interviews as given by the site do have some facts that we know to collaborate with other sites (for example, the interview with creative director Lauren Faust has her tell of how she got involved with the show, which matches 100% in accuracy from a similar statement she made to another, more reliable interviewer/news source several months ago. There is no reason to doubt the ED folks themselves (eg: I don't think they faked the interview, as they have been trustworthy of info in the past, marking rumors/speculation as such, but that's it for their history of fact checking). -- MASEM ( t) 11:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
In this edit 86.135.240.243 has restored a section which shows conversions between the Hebrew calendar and Exigian calendar (whatever that is). There is no citation showing that the Exigian exists, or if it exists, that it is sufficiently widely used to preferred over the Gregorian calendar as a target for conversion. Jc3s5h ( talk) 17:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I want to add content to the above article. I am asking advice on Source A and Source B. Note that both sources cover the same article by the same person, but they are given as two sources because it is published in two different media. Source A is an online forum subject to editor control and discretion. It offers scope for interaction through editor moderated comments and verifiability and fact checking through links and citations. Source B is a mainstream leading newspaper without the extra scope offered by the online source.
Michael Roberts (31 August 2011)"Forbidden Fruits: Niromi de Soyza’s “Tamil Tigress”, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko?", Groundviews
Forbidden Fruits: Niromi de Soyza’s “Tamil Tigress”, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko?
Michael Roberts (September 2011) "Forbidden Fruits? Niromi de Soyza, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko?", The Island.
Source A and B cite and quote two primary sources, Title at Allen and Unwin and, With Niromi de Soyza Thursday 21 July2011 and I have used those quotes too(with inline citations) in order to clearly summarize the relevant arguements contained in Sources A and B.
Market Pitch, Fundamental Error
The dramatic beginning via “The Ambush” is geared to the book’s market pitch. Both the back cover and the cyber-world notices advertising the book tell us that “two days before Christmas 1987, at the age of 17, Niromi de Soyza found herself in an ambush as part of a small platoon of militant Tamil Tigers fighting the government forces that was to engulf Sri Lanka for decades (emphasis mine).”[x] The appeal here highlights the pathos of her journey in life by underlining her youthfulness and placing the encounter just prior to the natal day of Jesus Christ.
But within this little tale within a biographical tale lies a fundamental error. Once the uneasy relationship of ‘alliance’ between the LTTE and the Indian government (the LTTE’s ‘mentor’) unravelled in September-October 1987, the Tigers were engaged in a guerrilla war with the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) in the northern and eastern parts of the island. As the details below reveal, the armed services of the Sri Lankan state (GoSL) were not directly engaged in this war and did not have joint operations with the Indians on the ground. In brief, the December skirmish could NOT have been against Sri Lankan soldiers.
It is not an Allen & Unwin mistake. When de Soyza was interviewed by Margaret Throsby, she remarks “when I joined, the Indian forces had arrived and the Tigers had chosen to fight the Indian forces as well as the Sri Lankan forces.”[xi] Such profound ignorance suggests that she was not in Sri Lanka then and that her tale is a fabrication fashioned without adequate homework.
Dramatic Shifts in the Year 1987
...
Implications
The setting that I have traced above is pertinent to the embellishments in Tamil Tigress, notably the use of Thileepan’s photograph with Muralie beside him – both prominently highlighted in the book as the Tiger officers who enlisted Niromi (Tigress, 66-69), while Muralie was the platoon leader during her first experience of battle. These touches in turn provide a possible explanation for the reasons that induced de Soyza to obscure the fact that this fire-fight was against the IPKF. The alleged autobiography was finalized in 2010/11 in a context where the Western media has targeted Sri Lanka as an Ogre guilty of war crimes. To place Indian troops behind the guns that threatened her platoon would tarnish her goals. These goals include an explicit desire to show Australians that the boat people who had begun to arrive off the coast of their continent were not economic refugees, but worthy asylum seekers fleeing persecution. She told Throsby that her tale was in line with the revelations provided by the Channel Four documentary Killing Fields and the Moon Panel of Experts. “I knew that when the Tamil Tigers were caught by the soldiers those things would happen they would be shot in the head, raped, tortured all of those things …It was nothing new.”[xxii] To complicate this propaganda pitch by placing the IPKF in the first chapter would spoil her intent.
Trivial Errors? Ethnographic Howlers of Profound Import?
While it was the foundational error in describing the context of her first battle experience that raised questions in my mind about the authenticity of de Soyza’s autobiography, there are other tell-tale signs that added to these doubts – as I have remarked in my initial essay on this topic.[xxix] These were minutiae. Again, a range of minute points of error are listed by Arun Ambalavanar when he recently made the suggestion that Tamil Tigress was a “farce.”[xxx] ...
Some of the questions from Ambalavanar which the publishers may regard as trivial objections have the character of “ethnographic queries” in an anthropological sense.
Then another Sri lankan born Australian academic further questioned the appropriateness of classifying Tamil Tigress as Autobiography
The book's classification as Memoir is challenged on ethnographic grounds as well as on the grounds of a foundational error.The foundational error consists of the author's apparent ignorance, persisting to date,of the identity of her adversaries in Combat during the fighting tenure(late 1987 to 1988) attributed to herself in Tamil Tigress. From late July 1987 to early 1990, the signing of the Indo-Sri Lanka Accord and the consequent arrival of the IPKF ensured the withdrawal of the Sri Lankan troops from the Battlefield.
That the Sri Lankan forces stayed clear of direct combat with the LTTE during this period, apart from the limited operations undertaken at sea by the Sri Lankan Navy,is a basic fact, that would have been known to contemporary Tiger fighters of all ranks.
In contrast the blurb of Tamil Tigress announces, “Two days before Christmas in 1987, at the age of 17, Niromi de Soyza found herself in an ambush as part of a small platoon of militant Tamil Tigers fighting government forces in the bloody civil war that was to engulf Sri Lanka for decades…”
In her Margaret Throsby Interview(between 18.45 and 19.02)Niromi says; “…when I joined, the Indian forces had arrived and the tigers had chosen to fight the Indian forces as well as the Sri Lankan forces”
In the same interview(between 35.56 and 36.23),she responds to a question regarding a film, which claims to be a documentary covering the atrocities committed by the Sri Lankan Government Forces during the final stages of the Elam War ;
“Were you able to watch the four corners documentary? “
“I watched it. I forced myself to watch it… It distressed the whole time….I couldn’t sleep that night… but at the same time it wasn’t new. This was something that I knew had happened. I mean I had witnessed much of it and I knew when… the Tamil tigers were caught by the soldiers those things would happen …they would be shot in the head, raped, tortured all of those things. It was nothing new.”
There is thus an attempted projection of Sri Lankan Forces into her fighting experiences, from which they should in reality have been absent. A possible motive for creating this imagined context is given by by Niromi in her Throsby interview(between 35.21 and 35.54);
“…in 2009 when the war …had ended in Sri Lanka and Tamil refugees were still arriving in Australian Shores by the boat and there was a complete misunderstanding , everyone labeling them as economic refugees because, the war had ended. But I knew different… So I thought somebody has to say something… At that time… the UN panel report wasn’t there…, the four corners documentary hadn’t been shown so I thought I needed to put this story out …despite the fact I didn’t want to...I’d felt there was a need….”
my reverted revision diff from current
I hope this is enough information or that it's not too much. Gettingthere ( talk) 08:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Paul B But I no longer want to make a case for Michael Roberts under WP:SPS. Because the self published source which was challenged Roberts Michael, 21August2011, Another Demidenko? Niromi de Soyza as a Tiger Fighter, Thuppahi's Blog has now been rendered unnecessary as that article is now available as a reliable source, in Roberts Michael, 27August2011, A Captivating Fiction with a Political Slant? Niromi de Soyza as Tiger Fighter, Sri Lanka Guardian. It is at present available in Tamil Tigress as a reference. Perhaps as an embellishment I will use Roberts Michael, 21August2011, Another Demidenko? Niromi de Soyza as a Tiger Fighter, Thuppahi's Blog as an external link.
But my querry was not about that. To develop Tamil Tigress further , adding a Controversy section, I claim the following as reliable secondary sources, which analyses the statements contained in the Throsby interview and Tamil Tigress blurb, contrasts them with the actual circumstances prevailing in Sri Lanka due to the Indo Lanka Accord and and forms conclusions i.e.;Market pitch/Fundamental Error, profound ignorance suggestive of non-residence in SL during the relevant period, a fabrication fashioned without adequate homework.
The word "source" in Wikipedia has three meanings: the work itself (a document, article, paper, or book), the creator of the work (for example, the writer), and the publisher of the work (for example, The New York Times). All three can affect reliability.
Policy WP:SOURCES
The word "source" as used on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book), the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work (for example The New York Times, Cambridge University Press, etc.). All three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both.
Guideline WP:IRS
According to the above policy and guideline, A and B count as two sources, because even though it's the same article by the same author two different publishers are involved.
There is some confusion about these sources. Roscelese and Loonymonkey have accused me of original research and synthesis, of using personal analysis of interviews with author to prove she is lying. I think they only went through Roberts Michael, 21August2011, Another Demidenko? Niromi de Soyza as a Tiger Fighter, Thuppahi's Blog, saw no interview excerpts or analysis there and assumed OR.
Since, "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both", let me estasblish Michael Roberts as an authority or expert on the subject. Specially as in accordance with "When taking information from opinion pieces, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint. If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact."- WP:NEWSORG guideline, I want to present his arguements as authoritative statements, not merely as intext attributions.
Michael Roberts [1] [2] was educated at St. Aloysius College, Galle and his B.A degree with honours in History at the University of Ceylon at Peradeniya. He received a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford and attended Merton College while completing his D.Phil in History. [2] He taught at the Department of History at Peradeniya in 1961-62 and from 1966-75. He was Director Dogsbody of the Ceylon Studies Seminar during its halcyon days and one part of the engine room for Modern Ceylon Studies in its early years. [1] He secured an Alexander von Humboldt Fellowship to Germany in 1975 [1] and subsequently joined the Department of Anthropology at the University of Adelaide in 1977, where he is now an Adjunct Associate Professor. He was the founding Editor of Social Analysis in 1979. His Major works include Elites, Nationalisms and the Nationalist Movement in British Ceylon(Colombo: Department of National Archives, 1977); [2] Caste Conflict and Elite Formation: The Rise of a Karava Elite in Sri Lanka, 1500-1931(Cambridge University Press, 1982); [3] [4] People Inbetween: The Burghers and the Middle Class in the Transformations within Sri Lanka, 1790s-1980s, Vol 1 (Colombo:Sarvodaya Press, 1989); [5] Exploring Confrontation. Sri Lanka: Politics, Culture and History(Reading:Harwood Academic Publishers, 1994); [6] Crosscurrents: Sri Lanka and Australia at Cricket, (Sydney: Walla Walla Press, 1998) [7]…
-Taken from the book jacket of Sinhala consciousness in the Kandyan period, 1590s to 1815 [8] [9] with inline citations added by me where appropriate.
While Roberts can be described as a historical anthropologist, the fact remains that all his work engages the political relations of power and that he straddles the disciplines of Politics, Sociology, Anthropology and History. [10]He is a prolific writer and contemporary political commentator on a wide range of subjects.
...Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both
-Guideline WP:IRS
Accordingly I claim A-Michael Roberts (September 2011) Forbidden Fruits? Niromi de Soyza, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko? The Island Part 1, Part 2 . as a source which is reliable on both counts(author+publication) and B- Michael Roberts (31 August 2011) Forbidden Fruits: Niromi de Soyza’s “Tamil Tigress”, Noumi Kouri and Helen Demidenko?, Groundviews as a source which assumes reliablity beacause of the author.
Roscelese has wrongly represented Groundviews as a source falling within WP:NOTRELIABLE
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or which lack meaningful editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional, or which rely heavily on rumor and personal opinion. Questionable sources should be used only as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves; see below. They are unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties.
Groundviews Funding and support
Groundviews was set up under the Voices of Reconciliation Project, conducted by the Centre for Policy Alternatives (CPA) from 2005 – 2006 and funded by CIDA and AusAID. From February 2007 to late 2009, Groundviews did not receive any funding from local or international sources. From late 2010 to date, core operational costs are met by funding from Ford Foundation. The Centre for Policy Alternatives is the institutional anchor for Groundviews, since its inception.
In December 2007, Groundviews was awarded an Award of Excellence in New Communications from the Society for New Communications Research. It is the first and to date only civil society and media web initiative in Sri Lanka to have won a competitive international award for excellence in journalism and media. “Groundviews exemplifies the mission of this awards program: the successful and innovative use of new communications solutions and social media practices to enhance communications and relationships” commented Mike Manuel, SNCR Best Practices committee chairman.
In 2009, Groundviews won the prestigious Manthan Award South Asia. The grand jury’s evaluation of the site noted, “What no media dares to report, Groundviews publicly exposes. It’s a new age media for a new Sri Lanka… Free media at it’s very best!” oops forgot to sign Gettingthere ( talk) 07:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
The prior discussion on this board about the Daily Dot can be found here.
I'm bringing this subject up again not to comment on the news site itself, which has blossomed since the prior section about it into a full news resource for online topics. No, I would like to instead revisit whether the author of certain articles, specifically ones on Encyclopedia Dramatica, can still be considered independent enough to be secondary and whether they might be slightly biased by fraternization. The author in question is Fruzsina Eordogh, who recently made a new article about ED.ch, which can be found here. One of Eordogh's IRC chats on ED.ch was recently unearthed (for full disclosure, by Eric Barbour on Wikipedia Review) and can be found here. Note: Eordogn is the user Zardoz in that IRC chat.
The issue I have with it is that one would expect some amount of professionalism from a reporter trying to write a news story. At some points in that IRC discussion (which appears to not have all comments from other parties in it) she does seem to have that respectability, but at many other points, she seems to be acting rather unprofessional and close to the subjects she's interviewing. It's one thing to be making a joke here and there while conducting an interview, which journalists do a lot of the time, but this seems to be a step beyond that.
What do the editors of RSN think? Silver seren C 15:07, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Silver seren: What sort of outcome are you looking for from this discussion? Are you requesting that articles written for Daily Dot by Fruzsina Eordogh are not reliable? -- Odie5533 ( talk) 04:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I can make neither head nor tail of this discussion, and I find it astonishing that anyone can draw conclusions from the (apparently incomplete -- maybe Zardoz replied publicly to private messages?) IRC log. So I looked at the ED article and searched for the name Brandt. I was shocked to find the server name of a blog mentioned there that contains crass outing information which at least borders on the criminal. There seem to be no explicit rules for dealing with this situation, but IMO this is little better than a link to the blog. I am therefore going to remove it per the spirit of WP:BLP. Hans Adler 06:40, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be many issues here, most outside the scope of this board. I don't see the IRC log as having much, if any, bearing here. Wikipedia editors digging into the primary sources used by secondary sources reeks of WP:OR. If a reporter acting chummy with the locals to get information is all that has been found, this newspaper would seem to be well within the boundaries of ethical behavior. It seems more that the problems here lies in how the source is used on Wikipedia rather than the source itself. The overly detailed coverage of events seems to fall under both WP:WEIGHT (the level of detail gives undue weight to one event within the article) and WP:NOT (the level of detail borders on WP:INDISCRIMINATE and the echoing of hearsay clashes with both WP:GOSSIP and WP:SOAP) as well as WP:BLP issues with hearsay and accusations against named individuals. Siawase ( talk) 11:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
The only reason the article doesn't have both parties is because Daniel Brandt refused to get back to them in time for publishing. Daniel Brandt is blackmailing us, stalking us and even harassing our families. Everything written in the DailyDot article is 100% truth. Brandy spends his days stalking and digging private information on other people, but when someone mentions his name on the Internet suddenly it is a violation of privacy. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander. He uses sites like Hivemind, Josephevers.blogspot and others to publicly invade the privacy of others and has been doing so for years. I can be reached using the email user function if anyone wants to know more. The Daily Dot is a reputable source, they just use a more humorous approach at journalism that is appealing to the Internet generation, while keeping the facts straight. This whole discussion is because Brandt didn't like the facts that were written in the article, so he asked silversion or whatever his name is to dispute it. It's all on Wikipedia Revue (Or at least it was, I am sure it has been deleted by now, as that is Brandts MO). -- Zaiger ( talk) 03:17, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to ensure that this is a reliable source. - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 19:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
It is WP:RS. That said, I find almost so source which is always reliable when it comes to "celebrity gossip" etc. - even the New York Times is errant on such fluff. In fact, I think "sensational gossip' in toto whould be bareed from any BLP articles. Period. Collect ( talk) 21:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to take a moment and ask you to look at this poll concerning the use of Equestria Daily as a legitmate source.
Thanks, Rainbow Dash !xmcuvg2MH 00:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
The author in question is the late Russian-American journalist Paul Klebnikov who wrote a highly critical article in Forbes about the Jewish-Russian tycoon Boris Berezovsky entitled 'Godfather of the Kremlin?' with the kicker 'Power. Politics. Murder. Boris Berezovsky could teach the guys in Sicily a thing or two.' In response, Berezovsky sued Forbes in the UK. The case was settled after Forbes agreed to publish the following retraction: 'On 6 March 2003 the resolution of the case was announced in the High Court in London. FORBES stated in open court that (1) it was not the magazine's intention to state that Berezovsky was responsible for the murder of Listiev, only that he had been included in an inconclusive police investigation of the crime; (2) there is no evidence that Berezovsky was responsible for this or any other murder; (3) in light of the English court's ruling, it was wrong to characterize Berezovsky as a mafia boss.( http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0331/022.html )
When Klebnikov was murdered in 2004 obituaries in the Guardian ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/jul/16/guardianobituaries.pressandpublishing ) and Independent ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/paul-klebnikov-550099.html ) noted a strain of anti-semitism in his reporting of prominent Jewish figures such as Berezovsky. Anna Isakova wrote in Haaretz: 'In Klebnikov's book, Berezovsky is depicted as a leech that depleted the homeland of all its riches. He represents absolute evil and is the primary enemy of the people... Klebnikov sees malicious damage in Berezovsky's every action. Although Klebnikov assiduously avoids the word "Jew," an aroma of old, almost religious, anti-Semitism emerges from each page in the book.'( http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/ogling-the-moguls-1.144261)
The question, which has been hotly debated in the talk page of the Berezovsky article and led to an edit war and the article being locked, is whether Klebnikov's writings can be considered to be a RS on Berezovsky.-- Kolokol1 ( talk) 16:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
comment: If the article was retracted, I would be very careful about citing significant content to it. It's not up to us to sift through the reasons for retraction and determine that such was done for illegitimate reasons. If the content in the article is worthy of inclusion, there should be other secondary sources which discuss it. Those should generally be used instead. If there are no such other sources, it may be possible to include the fact that such an article was written and retracted, with a one sentence description of what the content covered. aprock ( talk) 17:09, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
In response to the matters raised:
BTW, I should say that I am connected to Berezovsky and, since the libel issue is involved, at the request of a WP administrator I have declared that I have no intention of taking any legal actionAgainst WP or its editors over this matter, per WP:NLT#Perceived legal threats.-- Kolokol1 ( talk) 10:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Now i have brought this here because not every author on both websites list their credentials, the four above are reliable but I'm not sure if their credentials are enough to deem both websites reliable. They cross promote each other because one is a pop website and the other is rock. I also brought this here because they are self published, they have no backing like The New York Times as their publisher. So with all that said, please share your thoughts and lets get a consensus. (FYI these sources need to meet WP:GA standard if you agree with me that they are reliable.) - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 07:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Is ChannelAPA.com a reliable source, particularly http://www.channelapa.com/2011/04/to-whom-it-may-concern-ka-shens-journey-nancy-kwan-documentary.html? Cunard ( talk) 09:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
This source is given in the The Galloping Ghost (airplane) article, along with another one from the same website. I can find no reason why this website would be considered reliable, unless it's somehow a primary source for the Air Show, which I missed somehow? Silver seren C 17:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I think this site is nothing but unconfirmed speculation, and should not be used as it was used here. Jasper Deng (talk) 03:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
The site is run jointly by Everton and Martin:
EVERTON BLAIR
Everton is based in London and has worked in the internet and mobile space for over ten years now, and before that worked in corporate strategy and consulting. He has a degree in Economics from Cambridge University, and currently runs the Portal and online operations for one of the largest ISPs in the UK. He also writes for Windows 7 News, Connected Internet and One Tip A Day.
You can read all of Everton’s posts here.
MARTIN BRINKMANN
Martin Brinkmann is an Online Journalist from Germany who discovered his love for technology in high school. He is currently working as a freelancer for several publications and runs his own Internet website Ghacks
You can read all of Martin’s posts here.
An editor has deleted the information that I added from these sources, saying they are all "self published".
Yes, my statement that the sources were under SPS may have been in error, however, sources that 'guess' about the respondent's statements is the real issue. Dreadstar ☥ 06:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Based on a recent change of the year when Prof. Feigenbaum received his Ph.D in the article on Edward Feigenbaum, I found some conflicting references. So I send an email to the Mathematics Genealogy Project how they came to their year 1960, although different other good references mentioned 1959. I received a confirmation from their source that "Prof. Feigenbaum received his degree in 1960 although he completed and likely defended his thesis in 1959", based on checking the two copies the Hunt library has of the Ph.D dissertation of Prof. Feigenbaum.
Dougweller ( talk) suggested to check here if the used sources are ok. Mitch Keller from the Mathematics Genealogy Project was mentioning in his email the primary sources ProQuest Dissertations and Theses and the Carnegie Mellon University Library Catalog. Both are telling 1960 as the year for Feigenbaum's Ph.D. Are this considered reliable sources for Wikipedia? If yes, has somebody of you access to the ProQuest database to provide me the full reference details? I have no access :( So I can update the article. -- SchreyP ( messages) 18:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Is Galili, Shooky (July 4, 2007). "Falafel fact sheet". Ynet News. Retrieved February 6, 2011 considered to be a reliable source to support and conclude the statement, “Israeli entrepreneurs brought falafel to Europe and the United States sometime in the 1970s”, found in the article Falafel? The source itself does not cite any studies, scholarly consensus, or historical fact. Moreover, the writer of the article has no expertise in the field of the expansion of cuisine into other counties. From Galili, Shooky‘s own bio, he is rather a Content Specialist & SEO Consultant with a background in IT and a BA, Bsc, in Political Science & Computer Science. This concerns a discussion to strike the sentence from the article as argued in the discussion page Talk:Falafel - Subheading "Dispute over statement, "Israeli entrepreneurs brought falafel to Europe and the United States sometime in the 1970s.[7]" and citation". Please weigh in. Thanks. Veritycheck ( talk) 12:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I know, IMDB is sometimes reliable and sometimes not. So, specifically, an editor wants to use this IMDB entry to add info to the Dustin Diamond article to verify that he released a sex tape. My feeling is that this particular IMDB entry is so sloppy and incomplete it's not good enough, especially given that this is a BLP. The editor provided other sources, but the rest all seem to be blogs and wikis; you can see them in this diff. For me, none of those sources rise to the level needed to include negative info in a BLP. But I invite other eyes. Qwyrxian ( talk) 23:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi folks. I'm working on an article for the new library in Surrey, British Columbia and I came across an article on the above site that has a lot of good info. Was hoping to get some input on "ArchDaily" before I used it, perhaps someone is familiar. Article: [17] About page: [18] Thanks, The Interior (Talk) 22:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
One editor claimed to me that VentureBeat, though it describes itself as a blog, qualifies more as a "news blog". Specifically, the question is whether it is okay as a reliable source for reviewing the quality of another website (see this edit, where I self-reverted my removal of the source). I found a discussion in the RSN archives from March 2011 that indicated that it may be reliable in some cases. Any opinions? Qwyrxian ( talk) 03:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I just restored an edit of a critisim section regarding a California Jewish day school. The section sources to the series of articles on the blog of a rabbi in that community. As a prominent community leader I think that Fisher's statements regarding the school are notable but I'm unsure of the use of his blog as the source. What are thoughts here? Joe407 ( talk) 04:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
In July 2010 Rabbi Dov Fischer, in his role as Assistant Director of the David Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies , published an extensive analysis criticizing the school's academic program. In his analysis, Fischer continued expressing the deep dismay he published in 2008 regarding the school's "institutional failure to achieve the results charted at leaner, more modestly funded Jewish Day Schools operated throughout America under Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox auspices." Fischer's critique criticized the school's ongoing track record, claiming that it does not meet its mission as a community Jewish Day School because of failures in inculcating grade-appropriate Hebrew reading-and-writing skills, meaningful student acquaintance with the Jewish prayer book, and a foundational knowledge in Chumash and Bible studies.
Is there some reason why, after asking an initial question or starting a discussion on this board, some editors just disappear, and follow-up questions don't get answered before the discussion is shuffled off to the archives? Can someone please respond to my question from September 7 above? The discussion is not closed, and it's been two weeks. Nightscream ( talk) 13:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Going by Wikipedia:NEWSBLOG, blogs can be varying in their reliability. How should this apply to New York Times blogs? It's coming up for me now with Paul Krugman's blog. Certainly, most of his blog posts should be considered opinion pieces, and referenced as such if they're used at all. But, are they under the editorial control of the NYT, or does the NYT just provide the platform that Krugman uses? I don't see an easy way to identify that on the blog page itself. CRETOG8( t/ c) 20:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
An editor who joined a talk page discussion through a request for a third opinion has suggested that the reliable sourcing guidelines for medical articles is appropriate for Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence (see talk page discussion here: [20]). In particular, the editor is suggesting that WP:RSMED#Use_up-to-date_evidence is applicable. That guideline states: "Here are some rules of thumb for keeping an article up-to-date, while maintaining the more-important goal of reliability. These instructions are appropriate for actively researched areas with many primary sources and several reviews and may need to be relaxed in areas where little progress is being made or few reviews are being published." The subject area of Jewish IQ is generally a sparsely studied one with significant papers on the topic being published at a rate of 1-3 per decade.
It seems to me that this is not an appropriate use of WP:RSMED. Do others agree? aprock ( talk) 21:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
This book, is written by David Dean Shulman who is an academic and the book is published by an academic press. But it is written as a first person memoir, not an academic work with citations and footnotes, and is not in Shulman's academic area of expertise. Can it be used unattributed for statements of fact? The relevant article is Ezra Nawi. No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 08:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
'Can it be used for statements of fact?'
According to Shulman, Palestinians at Um al-Kheir, which lies a few meters from rows of red-roofed settler villas at Carmel, require building permits for any house construction or extensions to their tents or shacks. Such permits are almost impossible to obtain since on average, in the West Bank area administered by Israel, Area C, only one is released per month by the Israeli Civil Administration for the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian residents there.
User MehranVB and user In_fact, have been trying to add questionable and self-published sources to Mohammad Ala entry, which is also nominated for deletion. Please remind them that websites such as persiangulfstudies.com and www.stiltij.nl are not reliable sources. One is a shady "martial arts" / "meditation" site and the other is a questionable, self-published site. Thanks. -- Marmoulak ( talk) 18:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I am seeking clarification re: a BLP. A google search of "Skip Hollandsworth" resulted in 8,940 results, one of which is this result: http://www.elliscountyobserver.com/2011/08/22/texas-monthly-editor-skip-hollandsworth-pleads-guilty-to-dwi-receives-probation/
The editor of the Ellis County Observer (above) states that "this was actually Brandon P. Reed and The Daily Phalanx‘ story originally."
The article above provides this link http://www.dallascounty.org/criminalBackgroundSearch/ which when the name Hollandsworth is entered leads to a public record providing details about this person's DWI-2nd guility plea.
The individual co-wrote the upcoming Jack Black, Matt McConahay (sp?) film "Bernie," and won the National Magazine Award, the most prestigious award in magazine journalism in 2010.
Having established that he is a national celebrity, I verified the information about the DWI-2nd, not in an effort to do original research, but to verify the public information pubished in the Ellis County Observer.
Is this a violation of BLP? If so, my apologies. My opinion is that if the information is published elsewhere and then verified by an editor, then this is not a violation of the BLP policy. But I am not as knowledgeable about the issues.
Thank you.
The article List of avant-garde films of the 1990s uses the website http://www.allrovi.com/ as its only source. Is this site considered reliable for determining film genres? In particular, is it a reliable enough source to justify calling Delicatessen a "surrealist film"? Is it a reliable source for defining what is and is not an avant-garde film? --- RepublicanJacobite TheFortyFive 16:59, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
There is a source cited that puts the percentage of Christians in Egypt at 18%, which contradicts numerous other sources which puts it at a maximum of 10%.
From the Egypt article:
There is a significant Christian minority in Egypt, who make up between 5% and 18%[110][111] of the population.
The source cited: David B. Barret, ed. World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Study of Churches and Religions in the Modern World (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1982), p. 2740.
I tried to search for it, but all i could find is that apparently the World Christian Encyclopedia does not even contain 2740 pages.
Can anyone help?
There is currently a discussion on the Nazism talk page in were I am being told the following sources are A - No good. Or B - I am quoting out of context. Are the following sources reliable? And am I correct in my quotes?
Andrew Lancaster has, I believe, put his finger on the problem. The 'socialism' the Nazis practiced essentially destroyed the key doctrine of socialism as classically understood and practiced, since it excluded whole sectors of the community, homosexuals, the crippled, the foreigner, the internal communities of Jew and gypsy. 'Socialism' embraced differences where Nazism repudiated them on behalf of a corporativist race. By this logic, since Roosevelt's New Deal, as indeed Hoover charged, would bes fascist (interchangeable with Nazist later on). These fine distinctions are widely discussed in the historical literature, and to ignore contexts and tamper with language is to risk seeding a variety of American right-wing anti-state rhetoric (liberalism=socialism= communism= nazism=totalitarianism) and the dull thud of its concocted verbal drumbeat into articles. Nishidani ( talk) 19:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Use of Business Insider has been questioned before, reinforcing these concerns Marco.org (blog) indicates that Business Insider commonly recycles blogs while giving the impression that these are staff articles: obviously unreliable and something to watch out for. Of course the original linked blogs themselves might be usable if they're by a recognised expert, subject to the usual restrictions on using blogs, but citations to Business Insider should evidently be treated with caution. An AP blog comments on its recycling of other stories. . dave souza, talk 17:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Editors are removing reliably sourced information from the Boris Berezovsky article, and on the talk page seem to indicate that it is a WP:BLP violation. Can uninvolved editors take a look at Talk:Boris_Berezovsky_(businessman)#Use_of_libel_tourism.2Fterrorism and opine over there. There appears to be gaming going on to keep relevant information out of an article. Appreciate any input on the talk page. Thanks, Russavia Let's dialogue 20:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
The issue appears to be one related to whether material not directly related to the person should be in his BLP - " Libel tourism" might be a separate article at some point, and the material is clearly relevant to such an article. The issue, moreover, is not one of "reliable sources" but whether an article saying that a libel suit (won by the person) should be deprecated as being won due to something somehow improper in choosing a venue. The clear consensus of editors at the page, moreover, runs contrary to Russavia's assertions, now made on a great many noticeboards. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
In this discussion, accomplished real life historian User:Rjensen makes the assertion that because American Heritage magazine isn't a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, and because one author asserting a point within is a journalist and novelist (not a professional historian like himself), the source is "dubious." I'd like opinions on the subject. I certainly agree the journal isn't as scholarly as it used to be under Bruce Catton, but can't see it as a dubious source unworthy of use on Wikipedia. BusterD ( talk) 21:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I believe that writers for the American Heritage Magazine are reliable. However, I am for Wikipedia editor consensus on how much weight a particular article writer has at American Heritage Magazine and in the general academic community. If Wikipedia editors, not one editor, are not in consensus over a source from American Heritage Magazine, then I agree that the source, even if reliable, could be excluded from a Wikipedia article. Cmguy777 ( talk) 23:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
When used as a secondary source for reporting (as opposed to opinion pieces), American Heritage Magazine is generally reliable. aprock ( talk) 01:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
from this section of the article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory#Extension_to_Zionism_and_Noahidism
currently source #26
it looks like a webpage that someone knocked up in their bedroom. Vexorg ( talk) 02:59, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
What is the policy regarding sport commentators as reliable sources? The case in question involves the match commentators for the Canberra Roller Derby League who did the 24 September match between the Brindabelters, and the Black and Blue Belles. They did the stadium commentary, and their commentary is what will be used when the match is replayed on local television. They provided information about team records, when they came into existence, new skaters, etc. Would the match commentators be reliable sources about the league, the teams, the players and the referees? -- LauraHale ( talk) 11:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Note also strong copyright claims made by almost every sports league that the commentary is provided "solely for the entertainment of viewers only and may not be redistributed in any way" or the like. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:07, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
(
edit conflict) :No such commentary appears on on televised rebroadcast of matches on ChannelVision and no such claims were made in person. There were no statements regarding things being copyrighted and people were encouraged to take a lot of pictures. No such claim appears in the program guides. Given both, does that impact the reliable source issues as it pertains to my specific situation of wanting to use match official match commentary, which will be rebroadcast in full on television and in part on ChannelVision's website, as a source on the
Canberra Roller Derby League article? --
LauraHale (
talk) 12:15, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Is this source "Boldur-Lăţescu, Gheorghe (2005) The communist genocide in Romania Nova Science Publishers ISBN 978-1594542510" reliable for this content inclusion?
The Piteşti Experiment has been described as a crime against humanity.
The editor who has removed it has not used the talk page although I have started a section for this [24] The Last Angry Man ( talk) 12:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
WP:RS does not say "only approved correct articles are reliable" that I can find. Academic press = reliable source. Nor does WP:RS state "books printed in the wrong country are not reliable" either. Rather than exclude the source, those who dispute its words should find other reliable sources per WP:NPOV. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 14:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
[31] seems fairly clear - comparing the acts to executions. [32] does not view it favourably either. [33] etc .... I find not a single cite which could conceivably be used to attach any "nice" adjectives to the experiment. But heck -- the NYT is generally accepted as RS [34]. The final report is long and occasionally lurid. One chapter recounts the chilling Pitesti experiment, in which young political prisoners were systematically tortured and subjected to brainwashing techniques by other prisoners in order to destroy their sense of self and replace it with loyalty to the state. The report charges the Communist authorities with crimes against humanity and puts responsibility for the misdeeds primarily on the party and its secret service, the Securitate. Seems that would be a nice item to insert in the article, no? Cheers. Collect ( talk) 23:49, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Let me point your attention at the fact that the Crime against humanity, like genocide is a legal term, therefore, we can speak about some misdeed as about this type of crime only if some court will make such a decision. This is a difference between this term and, for instance, the term "atrocity", or "torture". Therefore, the statement we discuss is incomplete. It is supposed to contain a name of some concrete court that come to such a conclusion. In other words, the statement should look like this:
In connection to that, does the source we discuss contain the reference to any court decision? --
Paul Siebert (
talk) 00:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Is there a list of possible unreliable sources available for editors to use so they can be aware of website citations they may want to double check for credibility? I've created http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Flagged_sources as a sample of what an idea like this might start out as. Eventually, there would be a browser gadget, like "Proveit", or added onto "Proveit" to notify an editor when they are citing a site which may not be reliable or credible. This gives the editor a hint to check it over before submitting it. We will never keep up with all the self-published SEO content sites, but we may be able to make editor's lives easier if we can catch some of the larger ones.
If the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Flagged_sources page is not in the right place, please move it. Jjk ( talk) 01:15, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
[ [35]] It is stated "Fatou K. Camara, such statics are misleading. In her papers "Secularity & Freedom of Religion in Senegal Between a Constitutional Rock and a Hard Reality" and "Moving from Teaching African Customary Laws to Teaching African Indigenous Law", she provides a different statics" Is this person in a position to be included in an article on stats when she is the only one completely re-representing stats? I think their is too much weight to be used. It is also a FRINGE sentiment unique to her.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 09:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
In this article there is a section sourced exclusively to a blog. [37] I removed this section per WP:RS but it was reverted back in. Does the blog Pharyngula qualify as a reliable source. Note it is also used to support this statement about BLP`s "it isn't a real science journal at all, but is the ginned-up website of a small group of crank academics" It strikes me as a BLP violation to use a blog to call people cranks. Darkness Shines ( talk) 20:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
And whilst here is this a reliable source? [38] Darkness Shines ( talk) 20:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Thong Media seems like a web-2.0-ified press release agency focusing on television shows and particularly reality television shows. Their about page makes this clear. I'm a little concerned that thong seems to be being used on pages like The Apprentice New Zealand (season one) as the sole source of information. (a) Am I right in thinking that Thong neither third party for the purposes of notability? (b) Am I right in thinking that articles in other places with textual similarity (i.e. cut and paste) to Thong articles are also not third party for the purposes of notability? (c) Am I right in thinking that the other places carrying the articles with textual similarity don't count as third party for the purposes of notability, by virtue of carry the articles with textual similarity? Stuartyeates ( talk) 23:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Is http://persianempire.info/ a reliable source to be used in Surena? Thanks. In fact ( contact ) 12:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Iranian.com has a blog section and a regular section with articles in it. Are the articles in its Op-Ed section [41] considered reliable sources? They divide things into "news" which just links to a different site with a summary of a news item, "blogs" which are personal blogs apparently anyone can post whatever they want in, and "articles" which I believe should count as reliable sources. Someone has to approve these, so it has editorial oversight, and the people chosen seem to have backgrounds in their field of expertise. Note, the other sections on the site aren't in English so I'm not bothering asking about them. Dream Focus 02:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
The article on the English Defence League contains several references from the Searchlight Magazine I don't feel this is appropriate as the magazine on its own website that it is the magazine of Hope not Hate and that it also states on one of it articles "It’s time to act against the EDL" which I would say it is not a NPV C. 22468 ( talk) 17:17, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
( edit conflict):::::::We get the point, you don't like it, no need to bold. A lot of sites we use are pov in their reporting, eg many newspapers have a political leaning. I presume you mean contentious claims, but I don't see why a contentious claim should rule them out just because no other source are making them, we'd need to take that case by case. Dougweller ( talk) 20:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
For undoubted fact - maybe. Opinions (which dominate the article) are, however, only opinions, and should, as always, be clearly marked as such. O2rr is correct. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 20:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I have just been told that this source, Edwards, Lee (2000) The collapse of communism Hoover Institution Press (2000) ISBN 978-0817998127 ppXIII is not a reliable source for the statement that 100 million died under communism as the author did not provide a citation for this. "Communism, the dark tyranny that controlled more than forty nations and was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 100 million victims during the twentieth century" Does an obviously reliable source really need it`s own reliable source? The Last Angry Man ( talk) 00:24, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
It's quite another to ascribe a death toll to an ideology. How does one attribute a death to "communism"? Were the people killed in the Russian Civil War, or the Spanish, victims of "Communism" (as opposed to a struggle between Communism and other ideologies)? If one applied similar metrics, how many victims would be attributable to "free-market capitalism", or even "libertarianism"?
It's an inherently arbitrary and politicized question - and the Hoover Institution is political. It's a retirement home for old Cold Warriors, with a strong and overarching conservative ideology. That certainly doesn't invalidate it as a reliable source, but it does argue in favor of in-text attribution. MastCell Talk 20:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I essentially agree MastCell. Even if you consider the book formally as RS for most of its content, it should be obvious that there are better sources for such claims, that can and should be used instead. Hoover Institution Press hardly looks like anything you'd call a reputable publisher, instead use well known academic publishers such as Springer, Wiley, Kluwer etc. or some university press as far as books are concerned. Or use some peer reviewed academic journal articles that have dealt with this particular question in detail.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 01:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the use of fringe sources to debunk mainstream research. Correlation is the main point of concern. What do you folks think of its reliability and usability in terms of WP:UNDUE. -- Daniel 20:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
People, be aware of off-site recruitment regarding the astrology articles in general and the Carlson study in specific. [44] Since last spring there has been a steady influx of single-purpose editors. The article has slowly turned into a lengthy apology for Western astrology. Skinwalker ( talk) 23:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing in the article to suggest that astrology is an actual science. You are confusing the terminology applied to the subject, and the description made of it, with the terminology applied to the statistically analysis that has been made of it. The article reports those studies objectively, as it should, presenting the criticisms of both sides. The results are not persuasive one way or another. In your desire to ensure that the claims of astrologers are not given any coverage in this article about astrology, you removed the entire section relating to the studies of Gauquelin. Though these make no major claims in favour of astrology at the end of the day, the story and the details of Gauquelin's work, the controversy attached to it and the discussions that extend from it, are of pivotal interest to the modern history of astrology. Wikipedia would become a laughing stock to censure such highly relevant content as this.
And sorry, but nothing has been appropriately restored. In the space of a few hours, with this request for noticeboard clarification not yet half a day old, and with less than 300 words of discussion on the talk-page, Dominus Vobisdu and 3 other editors have removed almost 1000 words of highly significant content supported by 30 reliable references. Not discriminately or critically - just deleting whole passages with their accompanying references. This is content that has been developed cautiously by a wide-ranging team of editors, with great regard to the relevant WP policies. It is clearly marked on the talk page that the subject of the page is controversial and substantial changes should be undergo discussion and evaluation before being introduced on the main page. This is the policy that the contributing editors inherited and have been restrained by.
As I mentioned earlier, this is NOT constructive editing. I have recommended that the content be restored to what it was before these policy-breaking edits, so that any point that has been ruthlessly erased, is subject to the proper process that the policy of the page dictates. -- Zac Δ talk! 05:54, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I am the current editor of Correlation, the journal of research in astrology that has been referred to as a fringe journal because, it is alleged, it is a journal of pseudo-science as defined by Wikipedia. Correlation is a journal of research in astrology and publishes material that has been peer reviewed by mainstream academics with a good understanding of astrology as applied to science and the humanities where the material submitted applies astrology to that particular academic’s specialist field of interest. The journal also publishes reports from researchers about ongoing projects. It publishes comments from readers on papers that have appeared within its pages and it has a Letters page for critical comment of any part of its published content and to encourage objective intellectual exchange. It has also published material of a philosophical nature in order to encourage scientific and sociological research, which includes statistical analysis, and new approaches in thinking to the ever-present challenge of designing good studies that are appropriate to the research question. The journal aims to inform its readers on research matters and to encourage its readers to express their opinions within the journal in order to promote balanced and informed thinking in any issue that relates to research in astrology. The peer review process seeks to ensure a high standard is maintained within the journal pages where these matters are concerned. That which is defined as pseudo is that which is false, counterfeit, pretended or spurious as in the case of scientific claims, for example. The journal, Correlation is, therefore, not a pseudoscientific journal.
Pat Harris, PhD, MSc., DFAstrolS., Editor, Correlation.
Correlation does not publish religious articles. Articles are sent to peer reviewers with an understanding of astrology in their specialist field of interest. Peer reviewers hold a neutral outlook with regard to the potential value of astrology in the sciences and the humanities. A list of consultant editors who contribute to the peer review process is published on the inside cover of every issue of the journal. Pat Harris, Editor, Correlation.
My PhD was awarded in 2006 but completed in 2005 and the ceremony took place at the University of Southampton in 2007. I was supervised within the Deparmtent of Social Statistics and my examiners were situated there and also in the Department of Social Work Studies. This is not relevant to the discussion, here, but I hope you find the information helpful. Correlation is available on line at the website of the Astrological Association which publishes the journal. You will find the list of the consultant editors within its pages. Perhas you would now like to provide some information about yourself? Pat Harris, Editor, Correlation.
People are reverting the changes, and I can see where they would be disturbed by wholesale deletion. I would suggest that we focus more on attribution and less on deletion (I deleted things wholesale too, but maybe that isn't the right approach). I'm sure some things will get deleted, but I'm also not sure if some of the deleting editors were acknowledging that astrological sources are RS for astrological beliefs. Be——Critical__ Talk 14:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
It was another deletion that flounced WP policy. This should be clear enough to anyone who contributes to the discussion page (see Talk:Astrology#Achieving Neutrality).
The original request concerned the appropriateness of quoting from Correlation. The hoped for clarity on that point got waylaid by uncritical deletions which didn’t distinguish whether real problems existed, and if they did, whether they concerned neutrality, objectivity, undue weight, or the reliability of the sources. The point made in this notice board is that reliability is often dependent upon context. The editors that have contributed to the astrology article have been working to a plan (established in earlier discussions that have now rolled off the discussion page), to have the content critically reviewed. Though the article is not ready for that formal request, sceptical editors have had an involvement in the process of development, and even invited to comment when they have gone quiet, because there is an objective to resolve long term problems and develop the article to FA status. It’s not the case that a group of editors are trying to push a position, but if you consider how evocative this subject is, you might appreciate how much work has to go into getting the balance of the content right.
In response to the controversies this discussion triggered, I’ve initiated a procedure on the talk page to ensure that all of the passages that drew attention are systematically analysed and rewritten, if and where necessary, to achieve a robust consensus on neutrality. This will help to distinguish between criticisms based on what the content is saying and those which concern reliability of sources. I believe it is only the latter that is of direct relevance to this particular board, so it doesn't seem helpful to confuse various issues here. Therefore, I am recommending that this particular discussion is brought to a close, so attention can be focussed on the necessary analysis. If the criticism of any comment ultimately hinges on doubts concerning the reliability of its source – then that particular source should be brought for review here, so it can be specifically discussed, in context, without having to carry the weight of non-essential side-issues that range from the existence of angels to where and when the editor of Correlation received a PhD. -- Zac Δ talk! 22:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)