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The editor of "The Gateway Pundit" entry is not neutral and has interpreted the sources sited from an extreme viewpoint, not neutral at all. This entry should be re-written with much less bias and accurate sources.
Wikipedia Policy Has Not Been Followed for "The Gateway Pundit" entry. All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. It is also one of Wikipedia's three core content policies; the other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles, and, because they work in harmony, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another. Editors are strongly encouraged to familiarize themselves with all three.
This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:40C1:1E00:F8E3:E051:6DEF:1AA9 ( talk) 05:23, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
See [1]. User:Genghis khan2846 first removed the maps because " there is no map in the articles "Shamanism" and "History of Christianity"". I thought them useful and the rationale wrong so reverted. He's reverted me because "We cannot accept this. This is very much insulting to our religions." This doesn't seem to be an RS or NOR problem, so bringing it here. Doug Weller talk 18:01, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
There's a fair amount of POV-pushing ( WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH) going on there, claiming it's responsable for a famine (which is equivocated to genocide). Can I please get a few eyes on this? Thanks. Kleuske ( talk) 11:54, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Kleuske: I thought I'd check this out, the article says this: 'A rigid belief in laissez-faire guided the government response in 1846–1849 to the Great Famine in Ireland, during which an estimated 1.5 million people died. The minister responsible for economic and financial affairs, Charles Wood, expected that private enterprise and free trade, rather than government intervention, would alleviate the famine.'
Well, I don't think it's too bad, even if a free market type might have emphasized that 'it was becoming obvious by the end of 1845, that the potato crisis in Ireland was being aggravated by the restrictions imposed by the Corn Laws.'
A few more remarks: There was a decision in 1847 to cut Treasury spending on public relief efforts during the Irish famine. And there are Robert Peel and Charles Wood's macroeconomic policies of the 1840s, including the gold standard (classical liberal institution), the Bank Charter Act, and corn law repeal. Prime Minister Robert Peel was forced to resign in 1846 over the Repeal of the Corn Laws -- that is, the triumph of free trade (classical liberal institution) in Britain with the repeal of the Corn Laws by parliment in 1846. Without trying here, to reveal the whole story behind the repeal of the Corn Laws, the dominant economic theory in mid-nineteenth century Britain was Laissez-faire. As long as this theory held sway, Coercion Acts and extra British troops enforced laissez-faire exports from Ireland at the point of a bayonet. The economic theories of Thomas Malthus were very popular in England at the time of the Famine. Anyways, it so happens, that the Irish potato famine coincided with the repeal of the Corn Laws by the existing Prime Minister Robert Peel. The protectionist laws had been enacted in 1815 to artificially keep up the price of British-grown grain by imposing heavy tariffs on all imported grain. Under the Corn Laws, the large amounts of cheap foreign grain now needed for Ireland would be prohibitively expensive. English gentry and politicians reacted with outrage at the mere prospect of losing their long-cherished price protections.
In sum, I think the article could delve into greater detail, but of course that would make it longer. It is my understanding that British government officials and administrators rigidly adhered to the popular theory of the day. Throughout the entire Famine period, the British government would never provide massive food aid to Ireland. The British government also did not interfere with the English-controlled export business in Irish-grown grains. Large quantities of native-grown wheat, barley, oats and oatmeal sailed out of places such as Limerick and Waterford for England, even though local Irish were dying of starvation, thoughout the Famine years. Shaky Irish relief effort!
Of course, one might say that the potato crop in Ireland had never failed for two consecutive years. British officials believed the 1845 food shortage would likely end with next year's harvest. Also interesting, that most of the Irish countryside was owned by an English and Anglo-Irish hereditary ruling class. They held titles to enormous tracts of land long ago confiscated from native Irish Catholics by British conquerors such as Oliver Cromwell. The average tenant farmer, these Catholic farmers were usually considered tenants-at-will. Irish peasants were actually healthier than peasants in England or Europe. DanLanglois ( talk) 07:41, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Seems to be a very pov title, given the lack of evidence that this is actually a political movement. See for instance this article [2] which discusses bots, as does this one and Snopes [3]. Doug Weller talk 15:03, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
There is a request for comment on this at Talk:Poodle#Request for comment on how to describe the dispute over the origin of the poodle. Doug Weller talk 08:28, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
This IP keeps claiming Middle Easterners were considered white in South Africa. This is fine if he can provide a source, but he can't. (The only source provided indicates that some people from the northern Levant, e.g. Lebanese and Syrians, were considered white; it does not follow from this that Egyptians, Yemeni, Sudanese, Kuwaitis, Saudis, and all people from the Middle East were considered white.)
Of course if he adds a source that's great, and he can re-add this content. But I am skeptical of his claims because anecdotally, I have read accounts of North Africans in South Africa who were classified as "coloured" (a broad category that included not only mixed-race black people, but various nonwhite groups). It's also true that the "test" for determining whiteness in south Africa were quite ad hoc and turned on skin color and hair texture. In practice there were even cases of southern European people who were classified as coloured because they had darker skin and frizzy hair. /info/en/?search=Pencil_test_(South_Africa) /info/en/?search=Sandra_Laing. Given the diversity in appearance of Middle Eastern and North African people, it would be strange to assume all of them were regarded as white in South Africa without a source.
A good compromise might be to add "Syrian and Lebanese" rather than "middle eastern" to the description of white south africans, since this is actually supported by a source. Steeletrap ( talk) 14:06, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
I would like to disclose that I was banned a few years ago for significantly disruptive joke edits involving sockpuppetry on topics that are somewhat linked to the issue. I was later unbanned after two standard offer unban requests. The community did not choose to impose any form of topic ban. I do not have significant strong feelings or political biases regarding the topic. I would also like to note that there are relevant arbitration cases relating to this issue, including Falun Gong 2.
There is an ongoing NPOV dispute on Talk:Falun Gong. A version not substantially different from the last consensus revision in terms of POV is currently being maintained. User:Unicornblood2018, User:TheBlueCanoe, and I are involved.
The locus of the dispute is the inclusion of certain beliefs attributed to Falun Gong (that may or may not actually be held by that group) that might, to many people, appear absurd, such as beliefs regarding aliens and the divine status of its founder.
On 28 August 2018, Unicornblood2018 added information to the lede that had the effect of making the POV more negative. The information appeared to be based on reliable sources, but making information that dramatically shifts the consensus POV part of the lede seemed an incorrect editorial judgement to me. Furthermore, the text added was substantively similar to one of the sources used by Unicornblood2018. I reverted the edit, took the issue to the talk page, and re-added some of the information to a body paragraph in order to avoid dramatically shifting the POV from previous consensus. TheBlueCanoe later reverted my edit and re-added some of the information included within the edit. Information relating to the primary locus of the dispute was not re-added.
Unicornblood2018 has provided sources and information appearing to demonstrate his view that Falun Gong "could be described as a cult". The user appears to question Wikipedia's neutrality on this issue, indicating "And why are their teaching being unconditionally immune to any criticism on Wikipedia today by using Orwellian tactics by subtly stating neutral bias must equate to always seeing falun gong positively and nothing less than that , despite there are known truths that ring alarm bells?"
I have noted that "it doesn't matter how convincingly you argue that Falun Gong is a cult here, since Wikipedia is not an avenue for original research and its content must instead be based on what reliable sources say" and that "While Chinese Government-linked sources do include a lot of information that places Falun Gong in a bad light, and some of that information may be verifiably correct, such sources might not be appropriate for judging due weight due to their bias. Most uninvolved mainstream sources characterize Falun Gong as a respectable religious movement." I have also noted that the current article is a product of compromise and consensus; if a user wishes to change it significantly in a way that would alter its POV dramatically, they had better have a very strong argument.
TheBlueCanoe has concurred with some of my ideas. The user's talk page posts might not represent the entirety of their thoughts on this issue, given that they have stated "I hope to give you a more fulsome reply when I have I have a bit more time." The user has stated that not all beliefs of Falun Gong merit inclusion and emphasis, and that Wikipedia must use sound editorial judgment based on the weighting suggested by reliable sources. -- Leugen9001 ( talk) 16:43, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
This not my area at all, but this article -- from its very title on down -- seems problematic. -- Calton | Talk 06:59, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Please join the discussion and give your needed opinion on whether to include China's stance in the article Hamas to give it NPOV. We need consensus one way or the other. Thanks for your input. Veritycheck✔️ ( talk) 19:55, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Should the article; Desperate Measures (musical) include a template box for the separate casts or is prose enough? Please help form a consensus for the neutral point of view at Talk:Desperate Measures (musical)#RFC on inclusion of cast template box. Thank you.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 02:32, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Normally criminal cases, such as murders, where the murderer is not notorious the Wikipedia page is titled The Murder of XXXX and not titled after the name of the murderer. With that in mind, Maria Butina is the person named in the lawsuit United States of America vs Butina. Previous to being named in the lawsuit she was likely not notorious enough to deserve a Wikipedia page, although that might have been an omission given she seems to have created, a possibly defunct, gun rights organization in Russia. The prosecution, the DOJ, alleges that Maria Butina was an important agent of the Russian Government and therefore should have registered as a foreign agent under 18 USC 951. Her defense claims she was not an important agent of the Russian government and therefore had no need to register with the DOJ. If the defense is to be believed Maria Butina is not noteworthy enough to deserve a Wikipedia page in her name so the WP should be named USA vs Butina and Maria Butina should redirect to USA vs Butina. If the prosecution is to be believed Maria Butina is an important 'secret' agent of the Russian government and is noteworthy on her own merit of a Wikipedia page. An issue is at this point Maria Butina should be considered not guilty and therefore not noteworthy on her own merits. Her status as an important agent of the Russian government has not been determined by the court so her Wikipedia page should be renamed USA vs Butina.
My question: Should the Maria Butina wikipedia page be renamed USA v Butina, and perhaps rewritten to be about the issues surrounding the lawsuit and not Maria Butina (as she is not determined to be noteworthy)?
Geo8rge (
talk) 17:19, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Close per request. Excellent comment by The Four Deuces: " Neutrality does not mean neutrality between racism and anti-racism, but representing views based on their degree of support in reliable sources." — Paleo Neonate – 05:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
"The slogan has been spread by neo-Nazis, and racist groups including white supremacists." is what is in the lead section on It's OK to be white. It fails MOS:LEAD, which states "[The lead] should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view." This is not a neutral point of view and should not belong in the lead. This should not be in the lead. Computer40 «» (talk) 06:34, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Someone uninvolved close this until the OP fully engages on the article talk. O3000 ( talk) 00:42, 7 September 2018 (UTC) |
The style of the article suicide implies by what "facts" are stated in the lede and infobox a moral imperative to prevent.
By implying rather than explicitly stating, the article offer no opinion about exceptions to that moral imperative.
Moreover, the opinion is expressed in wikipedia's editorial voice, as if it were the opinion of Wikipedia en masse.
Make no mistake, fellow wikipedians, all morals are opinions.
Talk:Suicide#RfC: Neutrality Challenged
2600:1702:1740:2CA0:6D5B:7F89:FF9:190 ( talk) 08:12, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
OP pinging potentially interested parties 03:38, 3 September 2018 (UTC) @ SMcCandlish: Having found you by your noticeboard post and discussion for Talk:Rape_myth#Improper_tone_and_approach this being a similar natured issue, also noticing you mention having schooling in Anthropology and Communication, I figured you might have at one point studied ethics regarding suicide in ancient civilizations. @ Arnoutf: Reading through Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_15#If_a_majority_(or_all)_of_the_sources_for_factual_claims_about_Jesus_are_Christian,_is_it_proper_to_mention_that?, your perspective was neutral on the over all topic while solely interested in the article covering bias necessary for research and, from my perspective, how it affects alternative views. Also, noticing mentions about experience as a behavioral researcher, that I imagine you could give expert input about the article in question here. @ RGloucester: You're a senior editor who according to your contributions and user_page doesn't find editing extremely politically charged topics on Wikipedia stressful. I officially challenge you with my non-existent personal authority to find a more stressful topic to dispute on all wikipedia.
Considerable activity from disclosed and previous activity from undisclosed paid editors (article creation) are influencing this article in a manner that is WP:UNDUE
It is important to remember that even disclosed contributions from paid editors risk violating WP:DUEWEIGHT. This holds also when acceptable sources are suggested, or when suggestions seem reasonable. The corollary is that these edits would not occur without suggestion by the editor, and when compared to the rest of Wikipedia the article is made to read as a puff piece. We lack the time to find and evaluate the sources that are intentionally excluded from suggestion by paid editors. Each second spent evaluating suggestions from paid editors hinders research into non-biased coverage. It is not enough to find your own sources if the suggested edit is from a paid source (see [6]). The relevant policy by which we can entirely ignore paid requests is WP:CONFLICTOFINTEREST.
Additional eyes needed to assess this.
Carl Fredrik talk 09:59, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
A question was brought to the fore on the Village Pump (see: QUESTION) where we had asked about the propriety of having two different distinctions for Israel and Jordan when it comes to their conquest of the West Bank, the one (Jordan) in 1948, and the other (Israel) in 1967, and where the one (Jordan) is universally referred to in Wikipedia articles as "rule over the West Bank," whereas the other (Israel) is referred to as "occupation of the West Bank." The reply given to us is that Wikipedia does not WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS... it merely chronicles what reliable sources say about a topic," and that 'occupation' is the term that is "used in the real world... by the overwhelming majority of reliable sources."
So, if we cannot expunge the fact that in the real world they do, indeed, use the term "occupation" with respect to Israel's hold of these territories, can we at least add as a supplement the lesser known view (as held by the majority here, in Israel, and even by the current government) that the Israeli government objects to its being labeled as "occupier" in the traditional sense, due to the absence of prior sovereignty? I call your attention to the following articles published by JSTOR, see: Why Is Israel's Presence in the Territories Still Called "Occupation"?, and The Need for Fundamental Change in the Law of Belligerent Occupation. In order to give a more neutral point of view - without expunging the word "occupation," is it permitted for editors in articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict to write in the sub-section "Post-1967" in pages such as Jab'a, Khirbet Beit Zakariyyah, Husan, Battir, Nahalin, Beit Fajjar, Beit Ummar, Tuqu', Nablus, Beitin, As-Sawiya, Beit Iba, al-Khader, Burin, Nablus, Jenin, al-Eizariya, etc., etc., etc., that "such-and-such a town is under Israeli occupation in the absence of prior sovereignty"? (emphasis mine, according to page 46, of article Why Is Israel's Presence in the Territories Still Called "Occupation"?). We have already seen its precedence in the past, where arbitrators have agreed on a neutral wording with respect to Israeli settlements in the West Bank (See text here). Perhaps another way of preserving WP:NPOV would be to add after the word "occupation" the following: "While Israel's Supreme Court has labeled Israel's presence in the West Bank as 'belligerent occupation,' many in Israel dispute the notion of occupation, on grounds of its presence in the country before 1948." Be well. Davidbena ( talk) 13:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
References
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"While Israel's Supreme Court has labeled Israel's presence in the West Bank as 'belligerent occupation,' many in Israel dispute the notion of occupation, on grounds of its presence in the country before 1948."Specifically, I'm asking permission to say this in the sub-section entitled "Post-1967" in articles treating on those Arab-villages named by me above, and those with similar sub-sections, where the village is always listed there as being under "Israeli occupation," and where in the sub-section entitled "Jordanian era" the same village is described as being under "Jordanian rule" (a clear POV distinction). I do believe that editors on Wikipedia should be passionate about what they do here, and since this falls under the scope of WP:NPOV the suggestion should not be seen as frivolous, strange or unusual. In fact, it is similar to what we've seen with respect to Israeli settlements in the West Bank here. In my humble opinion, this would bring a semblance of balance to our otherwise good articles. Davidbena ( talk) 03:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
"such-and-such a town is under Israeli occupation in the absence of prior sovereignty."This statement is very terse and incorporates complete balance in a most subtle way. The words "in the absence of prior sovereignty" will include several references, and which fact, by the way, is not disputed by anybody. It is not a minority POV claim as you have surmised to say. It simply adds balance to the articles named. Davidbena ( talk) 04:44, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
References
I've stumbled across Arun Pudur, an article about an mysterious maybe-billionaire. He was subject of controversy in 2016, when Forbes discovered they could not verify any sources of income that would account for this wealth. This link was included in the article, but in a very unobstrusive way at the end of the article, while the claims of incredible wealth stay in the first sentences.
Two years have gone and Dupur seems to have dropped from the news entirely. More: His companies have, too. The website of the Pudur corporation, which according to LinkedIn has 60 million costumers, arundupur.com is down. So is celframeoffice.com, the alleged source and his wealth and according to the Wikipedia article a close competitor to Microsoft office. celframe.com is still online, but does not show any signs of business activity. It seems pretty clear: This person is not the successfull entrepreneur, he claimed to be. But how do you incorporate a lack of sources into an article? -- 2A0A:A543:8471:0:76D4:35FF:FE03:2B7E ( talk) 08:44, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
RfC is here. petrarchan47 คุ ก 04:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Talk:Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party/Archive 7#RfC: Inclusion of expert opinions, views of pundits, activist groups, tweets, etc. may be of interest to board followers. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:33, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Purplebricks ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
A few IP and new editors have been removing sizable chunks of content and/or rewriting content on this article with an obviously positive tone. However, the article before the disruption started was very obviously negative in tone. Additionally, I have noticed at least one editor using "our" to describe the article, implying a possible COI. Requesting more eyes/help with this situation, as I don't have the time to do a more NPOV rewrite on my own right now. Aspening ( talk) 21:28, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Following up on a post at the Teahouse, it may be helpful to get more robust participation at this RfC in order to form a more solid consensus one way or the other. GMG talk 12:35, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to solicit comment on the edits Batreeq has made to Mujaddid. I don't think they reflect WP:NPOV and are basically anti-Ahmadiyya POV that go against extensive discussion of the article content. PepperBeast (talk) 02:51, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:St Paul's Church, Auckland#Various issues. — Marchjuly ( talk) 10:39, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
As discussed in the talk page, there is dissagrement on the content that is in the section about criticism. Comments are needed to reach consensus and achieve neutrality. Rupert Loup ( talk) 10:34, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Presidency of Rodrigo Duterte ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
A few IPs have been writing content with a very negative tone. Some of the statements even include possible opinions/OR and/or fake news. Here are some examples:
I've tried to make some changes (tried to be as neutral as possible) ( diff) but they've been undone ( diff here) by an IP. However I have managed removed some of the aforementioned statements so its not there anymore. Please read the entire article. Requesting some open eyes to help, because I don't have a lot of free time, however I'm trying to make an NPOV rewrite in my sandbox. ITSQUIETUPTOWN talk • contribs 13:49, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Our article on Repeal of Prohibition in the United States says that:
There are indeed some sources that support at least some of those claims, [7] [8] but a `quick web search also finds:
So which view is supported by the sources? Or could it be, as one source says, "In truth, nobody really knows exactly how much alcohol consumption increased or decreased during Prohibition. The reason was simple enough -- people like Al Capone didn't pay taxes on their product and thereby report their production to the government. Licensed saloons became illegal speakeasies, and many common citizens took advantage of the high sales price of illegal booze by secretly manufacturing booze in their own bathtubs."? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 04:40, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
See Talk:KosherSwitch#NPOV -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:18, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
An RfC regarding PSCI and FRINGE (components of NPOV) has beeen started here [11]. Tornado chaser ( talk) 21:36, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
An editor has claimed that including the material removed in this edit with this source and this source is a "clearly UNDUE" because in his words there is "scant coverage" in a "weak source" in the case of the Daily Beast. When the book published by Routeledge was brought the user continues to say that this is "clearly UNDUE". Would the inclusion of that material with those sources be UNDUE weight? nableezy - 20:25, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Since the comparison between the two trips is made in a single source...That is untrue. Aside from the Daily Beast, there is a secondary source making the connection here. And the reason it was brought to this board, of course, was because Icewhiz objected based on WP:UNDUE, which is a WP:NPOV objection, but declined to bring it here himself. While we're on the subject, I agree that the topic area would improve if some of the numerous "aggressive and pushy editors" involved in it would step back for a few months, or at least tone it down; but I think that such editors are more likely to listen to people who they perceive as generally agreeing with them rather than ones they've had frequent disagreements with in the past (so they trust that the concerns are good-faith efforts to keep them as productive editors, rather than just being an attempt to settle ongoing content disputes.) I think that if you wanted to get the ball rolling on that, there are a lot of editors who generally agree with you, involved in this topic area, who you could talk to yourself regarding being less aggressive and pushy. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:49, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
The lead sentence of the article Francisco Franco states, "Francisco Franco Bahamonde[a] (/ˈfræŋkoʊ/;[2] Spanish: [fɾanˈθisko ˈfɾaŋko]; 4 December 1892 – 20 November 1975) was a Spanish general who ruled over Spain as a military dictator". I revised that single word so that the sentence indicated "leader" instead of "dictator", but my edit was reverted. The problem is that no one else is described as a dictator, military or civilian, in the lead sentence of their respective articles. Not Stalin, not Khrushchev, not Ceaucescu, not Castro, not Duvalier, not Ataturk, not Kim Il-sung, not Kim Jong-un, etc.
In fact, very few, if any, are described as dictators at all. Hitler is described as a "dictator" in the third sentence of his lead paragraph. In his lead sentence, Stalin is described as a "revolutionary and politician", Mao as a "communist revolutionary", Kim Il-sung as a "Supreme Leader", Ataturk as an "army officer, revolutionary, and founder", Mussolini as a "politician and journalist who was the leader", etc. We have previously had deletions of categories and lists of dictators, such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dictators or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dictators currently in power. Views from editors on this subject would be welcome. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:47, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
It could be because right-wing dictators are de jure dictators while left-wing ones are not in most cases.Excellent point, makes sense to me. —DIYeditor ( talk) 02:24, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
"Stalin" "dictator"
returns over 2 million results, many of them RSes, and the top one is
our article on the man, so I wouldn't put too much weight in the notion.
ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants
Tell me all about it.
This is definitelly an extremelly interesting topic. My personal view is that we should not label anyone as "dictator" in the first sentence. Dictator has clearly a negative conotation, and by labeling someone as dictator we are taking sides thus breaking neutrality. Another aspect is how much of a dictator a leader has to be to deserve being labeled as one right in the presentation sentence? Also, we will inevitably end up finding some leaders in the grey area and it is utopical to make a strict separation point. My proposal would be to write the introducing first sentence without the labeling of dictator for all cases, and then point out next that by most historiographers (or which ones) they are considered or refered as dictators. FkpCascais ( talk) 17:33, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
The opening sentence should contain strictly the official titles for all politicians, without exception. President, PM, etc. As far as I know, there is no official title of "dictator" thus that description is always subjetive to the description of the nature of that leaders rule, and that should not be included in the opening sentence. Agreed? FkpCascais ( talk) 21:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
In the absence of a specific guideline, the decision on Wikipedia to use the term "dictator" is basically left to the random perspective of individual editors. As pointed out at the top of this thread, some form of consensus apparently existed to avoid the use of the term and to delete various lists of dictators past and present, but those discussions were held twelve years ago and WP:Consensus may change. For example, only the middle one has apparently been a dictator, as of this writing:
"s far as I know, there is no official title of "dictator""
Wrong. "Dictator" was a political office in the Roman Republic. The Roman dictator was a magistrate "entrusted with the full authority of the state to deal with a military emergency or to undertake a specific duty. All other magistrates were subordinate to his imperium, and the right of the plebeian tribunes to veto his actions or of the people to appeal from them was extremely limited."
We have a List of Roman dictators, starting with the original office-holder ( Titus Lartius) in 501 BC, and ending with the death of the last office-holder ( Julius Caesar) in 44 BC.
Dictator as a modern term derives from the Roman title, and comparies the supposed power of various leaders to the imperium of the actual dictators. Dimadick ( talk) 10:56, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Should any article mention that the subject was featured in a Google Doodle? There were some attempts to discuss at Talk:Google Doodle. A couple hundred articles seemingly unrelated to Google link to it, and there might be more mentions without a link, so I'm asking here to have some consensus. wumbolo ^^^ 21:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
There are a few editors trying to remove the article, or strip any significant references to left-wing identitarianism from the article- even to the point of removing dictionary definitions. Apparently, some feel that identitarianism is only possible by white nationalists. All of the edits which remove this content, of course, are explained to be perfectly within the rules of Wikipedia.
In particular, User:Grayfell has removed significant content, but only the content that opposes the idea that others aside from white nationalists can be identitarians. Also, User:Objective3000 has been especially hostile toward trying to keep the article balanced and resorted to banning my account after I reverted an edit which was very WP:POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidBailey ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
especially hostileis absurd. Please read WP:BRD and WP:CON. Attacking other editors rarely leads to consensus for your edits. O3000 ( talk) 18:28, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
"John Gross FRSL (12 March 1935 – 10 January 2011[1][2]) was an eminent English man of letters. A leading intellectual, writer, anthologist, and critic."
Someone who knows something of the topic may want to take a look, the article seems to be on the positive side. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 21:16, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to request input regarding the Blue Army (Poland) article and assess the possible lack of neutrality in the text, which results form undue weight [(Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight]] "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement...".
This is a rather controversial topic and this dispute has been going on for a couple of YEARS now, where one editor user:Faustian was the author of most of the critical text related to the Blue Army and reports of anit-Jewish violence (which takes up a very significant portion of the article), and now again this editor is blocking any changes from being made to this text. Yet, when you step back and objectively take into consideration the scale of the events in question, this in effect is a secondary issue — since, three years of conflict and an army of 68,000 soldiers resulted in only a portion of the 200-300 Jewish casualties (total not just for the Blue Army but all of Polish forces numbering 200,000) according to the official Anglo-American report (in comparison to thousands of Poles and Ukrainians who were killed). Not to mention examples of current ongoing conflicts where similar sized coalition forces inflicted considerable civilian casualties due to abuses, lack of discipline and collateral damage, and how such information is presented in Wikipedia articles and what portion of the article is dedicated to such information. Thus, in this case placing undue focus on just one ethnic group, through depth of detail and quantity of text.
Thus, I'd like to request assistance from as many editors as possible, to have a fresh and objective look at the text, review the content and provide input and recommendations on how to restore balance to the article given the very large amount of text on this one topic. -- E-960 ( talk) 07:56, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
"bias and sensationalist"(an odd assertion for murder, robbery, and abuse - which is rather technical) - this is the language used by academic sources - History professor/Dr. Alexander Victor Prusin in an academic book and the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust published by Routledge (edited by historians Dr Robert Rozett & Dr Shmuel Spector). Icewhiz ( talk) 11:34, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Also, pls consider depth of detail and quantity of text in article. The section on anti-Jewish violence should be re-named and trimmed, since much less Jews died, than Ukrainians as a result of the Blue Army's actions. Yet, most sourced don't even bother to reference Ukrainian casualties, which were in the thousands, another example of bias.-- E-960 ( talk) 12:13, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
"it took part in warfare on the Ukrainian front, where, aside from its fine military performance, it was also involved in some anti-Semitic actions"[18]. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:31, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I am not sure where, if anywhere, it is better to take this other than the talk page, but that didn't even exist before I created it ~1.5 hours ago, so I am not anticipating much traffic there. Regardless, this complex issue is ultimately a neutrality matter, so hopefully this is the appropriate place.
The article, Photonic curing, is an orphan article that was created in July 2011 by a single-purpose account (SPA) with a declared conflict of interest, apparently first as a user subpage which was then moved by another user who is likewise a conflicted SPA. According to their respective user pages, both of them work at the same company which apparently invented photonic curing. Since the article's creation, there have been a few more drive-by promotional edits from employees of other companies, including some significant expansion by an IP address owned by the same company where the two aforementioned SPAs work. All that information is documented in the talk page's {{ Connected contributor}} template.
As of this version, the contributions from those two conflicted SPAs and that conflicted IP user still comprise 71.8% of the article's authorship, even after my minor edits (amounting to 4.7% of authorship). Moreover, it appears (virtually) all the references in the article are not independent sources, some of which appear to be authored by one of the conflicted SPAs.
How should I best proceed? I am not sure if this article deserves to be deleted, but it very well may fail a deletion discussion. If it is to be kept, then the article needs significant work, perhaps even a complete rework. Due to this subject being well beyond my scope of competence (and interest), I doubt I will be very helpful in that regard; however, I do not want to simply leave this article to be neglected for another near-decade, either. I do not typically deal with these situations, so advice is appreciated.
Thank you. — Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 00:23, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
Note: Since these edits are stale, I initially thought I should not notify the editors; however, after some consideration, it is probably necessary as a procedural matter. Consequently, I have alerted the following users:
Their notifications are here, here, and here respectively. While notifying the IP user, I noticed that Gogo Dodo had deleted the user talk page in July 2011 on G6 grounds. Ironically, that appears to be the closest to administrative attention this whole situation has ever gotten. — Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 00:57, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
There is an ongoing discussion about the suitability and handling of developer slogans without independent sources in this article, specifically about this content. Rather than repeating all arguments, the differing positions are outlined at Talk:OpenBSD#Current slogan removed. For transparency: I am only requesting help regarding the content-related question itself (a 3RR complaint about alleged conduct is pending). Any additional input from uninvolved editors about the content-related issue in this stalled discussion would be appreciated. GermanJoe ( talk) 14:19, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
User:Boud and I have been trying to find some compromises for the Non-science article. (If you are unfamiliar with the demarcation problem, then non-science is whatever's leftover, after you've defined some things to be science. Generally, among scholars, that means things like fine arts, but it also includes things like fashion or e-mail spam.)
A few days ago, Boud added this sentence to the lead:
"Hansson considers metaphysics and religion to be non-science"
Sven Ove Hansson is a well-regarded mainstream philosopher who wrote an entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (a highly reputable source that is used widely on Wikipedia). However, I don't think that this more-or-less universally agreed-upon statement should be given WP:INTEXT attribution to any singe person. Pretty much everyone except the fringiest of fringey sources agrees that gods and prayers and rituals aren't scientific, and I'm concerned that using INTEXT attribution in this case would make it seem like this is a minority point of view. What do you think? Should we use INTEXT attribution for this kind of statement? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 21:01, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I see no problem in improving on my latest edit to the article based on the above discussion; it's quite credible that philosophers of science in most cultures mostly agree that religion is non-science (although Dawkins strongly disagrees in the sense that religion makes claims that to some degree are testable). Unfortunately, this 8 Oct 2018 revert reversed a whole lot of other improvements going in the direction of inline sourcing, RS and NPOV. An earlier (8 Sep 2018) revert also made it hard to progress in improving the article. Talking about religion as a non-science was not the main issue here, and the revert re-introduced plenty of POV (see the DYK discussion and the talk page: in particular, the en.wikipedia is supposed to be about world knowledge, but written in English, not an English-speaking-world POV). Anyway, I'm not going to try any more edits any time soon in a situation where there are reverts rather than edits. Boud ( talk) 19:50, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
I really don't like the way this article is shaping up. The title suggests a historical overview of the topic, but in fact the article concentrates heavily on the present migrant "crisis". I'm not even sure that the title isn't WP:Synthesis. I would like to hear other views. Deb ( talk) 21:41, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
It's definitely an article that needs more eyes. The editor AadaamS adds content that AFAIK exclusively reflects poorly on immigrants, often sourced to German-language sources (which I'm unable to verify). This coupled with repeated attempts to remove reliably sourced content on the relationship between immigration and crime (both for Germany and Sweden) that provides a more nuanced view suggests that there is cause for concern. The editor has for example argued that high-quality English-language RS shouldn't be used in these articles, and has intermittently started edit-wars to remove the same RS content again and again (presumably in the hopes that other editors have stopped patrolling pages such as Immigration and crime, Immigration and crime in Sweden and Immigration and crime in Germany). Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 12:08, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
The reason that there are no reports for 2014 or earlier is that the report is about crime and the refugees who arrived beginning in 2015. In any case it appears to be synthesis. A tally of crimes by immigrants is presented with no analysis, which implies that immigration leads to crime without actually saying so. And the term immigrant is used in a way that would not normally be used in English to include people whose grandparents had immigrated to the country. (We don't for example refer to Donald Trump as an immigrant to America just because his grandparents were immigrants.) TFD ( talk) 04:31, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
As suggested, I've created Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Immigration and crime in Germany, where you can all have your say. Deb ( talk) 15:55, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
I never heard of this guy, but he founded a sub-movement within Roman Catholicism which apparently has a lot of followers. He seems to have been controversial, and the article contains an unsourced assertion that he is now under consideration for canonization. The narrative is written in a strange form of present-tense prose which reads as if it might have been ineptly translated from another language, possibly German. The primary authors seem to be preparing a defense for the guy as a good candidate for sainthood. I sometimes use the term hagiography metaphorically in Wikipedia discussions, but this one seems to veer close to the real thing. -- Orange Mike | Talk 16:04, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Mateo is insisting on moving the Hitler entry to the "Disputed" section List of vegetarians. His argument for doing so is that there are accounts of Hitler eating meat up to the 1930s.
It is true that Hitler ate meat up until 1937, and these accounts have been used by skeptics to challenge the cnotion that Hitler was vegetarian. For a long while Hitler was classified under the "disputed" section of the list. However, the facts have changed in the last five years. As documented at Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism Hitler's food tester came forward in 2013 and confirmed that all the food she tested was indeed vegetarian. And then last year a forensic analysis of the tartar on Hitler's teeth revealed that there were no meat traces. Both pieces of evidence corroborate Hitler's claim in 1942 that he was vegetarian.
To use outdated accounts as Mateo is doing is factually incorrect and agenda driven IMO. The Hitler entry satisfies all the criteria that other list members satisfy. Could I please get some neutral feedback at Talk:List_of_vegetarians#Hitler_as_a_disputed_vegetarian. Betty Logan ( talk) 12:44, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
There's a long-running discussion at Talk:AR-15_style_rifle#opinions_on_why_mass_shooters_choose_the_AR-15 concerning the reasons that mass shooters choose AR-15 style rifles and which viewpoints should be presented. Some editors feel that only the opinions of firearms experts should be covered, while others support the inclusion of "lay opinions" written by journalists in sources such as The Atlantic, New York Times and other media outlets. It would be helpful to have more voices in the discussion as only a few editors are participating. – dlthewave ☎ 13:26, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Comment: Why wasn't the article talk page notified of this discussion? Springee ( talk) 14:06, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is best now if we allow new blood to comment. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:21, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Dr. Pete Blair a Professor of Criminal Justice at Texas State University’s Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center(ALERRT) "which studies mass murder". They train law enforcement personnel in how to respond to active shooter incidents, the FBI started a partnership with ALERRT in 2013. He is a world renowned expert on active shooter events and has published numerous books, articles, and reports on the topic. He has also presented his research on active shooter events to the FBI, PERF, police chiefs’ organizations, and internationally.A criminologist that our FBI listens to, and can speak to criminals intentions.
Dean Hazen a cop for 25 years as Field Training Officer, SWAT Team Munitions Specialist, Glock Armorer and SWAT Team Operator, and recognized as a gun expert.Not a gun expert as claimed for "even a firearm instructors" but a SWAT Munitions Specialist and Armorer for 25 years makes him a gun expert.
journalist James Fallows "What is this gun? Why is it the weapon that people who want to kill a lot of other people, in a hurry, mainly choose?"
Journalist Tim Dickinson "the AR-15’s emergence as the main implement of mass murder last year"
I would point out that compiled data and expert analysis show these statements are factually wrong.Umm, those first quote is a question, not a statement. The second quote is a statement, but one the gun experts you cited all agree with: that the AR-15 style rifle is the most popular among mass shooters. And that's something you don't need to be an expert. Now, you can point to claims about "lethality" (which is a BS term if ever I've heard one: trying to boil down penetration, tumble, fragmentation and deflection into a single term is an exercise in futility) as being contradicted by experts, but then I can go get an expert to opine that the 5.56 NATA has excellent performance characteristics for killing quickly, and thereby agree with them. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:03, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is ok to add some views of journalists and such, but they should not overwhelm the article. Coverage in the media is generally relevant for articles, but it is not reliable for facts or conclusions that a surgeon, criminologist, ballistics expert, etc. would make - unless it is reporting those conclusions. And as came up with regards to this before, there is always a question whether a particular doctor is actually a reliable source on this specific topic, or is just reporting anecdotes and opinions. To sum it up, I agree with Masem that the spirit of WP:MEDRS applies, and the article should be strongly weighted toward the views of experts, and that statements or speculation by journalists, or other people who have not done rigorous study of this topic and been published in it as an expert, should be attributed and in no way described as factual. Also I wish that people who are either strongly pro-gun or anti-gun, or have strong opinions on mass shootings (not saying anyone in particular is or does) would leave articles like this alone. —DIYeditor ( talk) 19:56, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
@Simonm223: Ok, so you are anti-AR-15...I own a Bushmaster XM-15 in .223, a Bushmaster Carbon-15 (5.56) and an LWRC Six8 in (predictably enough) 6.8SPC. In addition, though this was many years ago, I have used several military variants of the rifle, including the M4A1 (with a SOPMOD B2 rig), an Mk12 SPR and a bog-standard M16A4. I am absolutely not "anti-AR-15" in any way. I love the platform and think it is the best all-around assault and sporting rifle platform.
sensationalized journalist speculation of a then news cycleover compiled data and expert analysis and claim it is the
mainstream vieweven when facts show it is incorrect. - 72bikers ( talk) 20:45, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
This was supposed to be about fresh eyes, so can those of us already involved please shut up? Slatersteven ( talk) 12:38, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Regarding frequency of use for any particular purpose, there is also the math of prevalence. As bundled here ("AR-15 style") that bundle is the most prevalent type of rifle and general purpose rifle in the US. North8000 (
talk) 13:17, 3 October 2018 (UTC) Editor is topic banned. –
dlthewave
☎ 15:14, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Let me clarify what I said: I am only suggesting that we verify the amount of media coverage before including many references to journalism itself, not that it should definitely not be included. It may be relevant to telling the story of the AR-15 if we can say there has been strong controversy over it, or quite a number of allegations against the AR-15, or other coverage in the media related to this article. The proportions in article space for each position should be related to how many relevant and significant RSs there are - we should not try to give equal weight unless it exists. WP:DUE is important and perhaps a little tricky to apply. Some weight should be given to prominent media opinions and the opinions of other credible critics. —DIYeditor ( talk) 06:39, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
promotes a copycat effectand provokes a need to outdo. He does not state any specific weapon used in the copycatting, just that
the medias specific sensational speculative claims provoke specific copying. We have in the article this statement from other experts mentioned above Hazen and Blair.
think that mass shooters' gun choices have less to do with the AR-15's specific characteristics but rather with familiarity and a copycat effectI feel because of the medias AR weapon of choice speculative claim, shows reason to use foxes views to support the AR copying by Blair and Hazen who also states this in there sources.
"to be widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes"This statement is only supported by the
mediaand in the article it does not state this definitive. All of the compiled data and expert analysis say handguns are overwhelmingly the weapon of choice 62% of the time and more recent 70%. Being the facts clearly say this media claim is grossly incorrect, making it just sensationalized speculation.
(I am not saying it needs to be removed, but just that it should be put into perspective.)I feel that Dr. Fox's comment on the medias sensationalized speculation's could be that perspective.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'd like to seek help with NPOV issues in the parapsychology article please.
I have been trying to make the article more balanced with the addition of peer reviewed articles from reputable journals. However every edit I make is being reverted.
For instance - https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Parapsychology&diff=861993182&oldid=861987230
I tried to change "It is identified as pseudoscience by a vast majority of mainstream scientists." to "Although it has been identified as pseudoscience by a majority of mainstream scientists for many years a recent review of research by psychologist Etzel Cardeña has found that "The evidence for psi is comparable to that for established phenomena in psychology and other disciplines, although there is no consensual understanding of them." [2]
I also added some information about the researcher who wrote this paper to the relevant section but it was reverted. See https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Parapsychology&diff=next&oldid=862096145
I also replaced the outdated definition in the lede with one that was from a reliable source, but it was reverted. See https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Parapsychology&diff=next&oldid=862113087
It was
Parapsychology is the study of paranormal and psychic phenomena, including telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, near-death experiences, reincarnation, apparitional experiences, and other paranormal claims.
I changed it to
"a branch of psychology that studies a group of phenomena collectively known as psi, a term referring to the transfer of information or energy that cannot be explained by known physical or biological mechanisms". [3]
I have another reference for a very similar definition "Parapsychology can be defined as the study of purported psi phenomena using the scientific method" which is Cardeña, E. (2018). The experimental evidence for parapsychological phenomena: A review. American Psychologist, 73(5), 663-677. But I haven't added it as every time I try to make the slightest change now it just gets reverted, even things that are fixing broken references and info about researchers.
Now editors are trying to have the Psychology sidebar removed claiming that its presence is promoting fringe ideas and claiming that parapsychology is not even psychology, despite my pointing out that The American Psychological Association thinks it is ( https://www.apa.org/pubs/highlights/psyccritiques-spotlight/issue-11.aspx) and The wikipedia psychology project thinks it is ( /info/en/?search=Outline_of_psychology).
I am being accused of promoting fringe ideas even though everything I have added is from reliable sources. Most of the arguments are simply other editors opinions that parapsychology is not reputable. No one has addressed my actual edits or sources other than in very arm wavy terms. They just keep repeating that I am violating policy and trying to promote fringe ideas.
Please take a look at the talk page and see if you can help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Parapsychology&action=edit§ion=3
I have notified all participating editors.
Morgan Leigh | Talk 12:27, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
References
"The American Psychological Association thinks it is [psychology]"is completely unjustified. -- tronvillain ( talk) 12:53, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
"The American Psychological Association thinks it is"implies. -- tronvillain ( talk) 15:09, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
There is a name for scientists who don't convince the skeptics: losers.I am afraid you are mistaken. The proper name is "crank", though yours is a more or less accurate descriptive. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:06, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Related: Related: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Paranormal -- Guy Macon ( talk) 04:22, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I was reading the WP:COI page and it directs one here for those who are dealing with a suspected editor with financial stake in the subject matter that they are editing.
As an editor who works in the pharmaceutical sector, I hope everyone would find it wholly inappropriate to see me editing the articles on competitor products, or downplaying or disappearing the negative effects of our own products.
However this is in essence precisely what is going on with an editor.
Now a big song and dance is made about not "outing", so do I put their username here, or do I get directed to a secret coven? Or what exactly is the protocol for having their undisclosed financial gain, recorded and dealt with?
Boundarylayer ( talk) 03:31, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Alright thanks for the replies, they were definitely a window into the inner workings. However the take-away seems to (1) Contact the editor on their talk-page, asking if they're aware of the seriousness of undisclosed conflict of interest editing, but make sure to not mention anything we know from off-site? (2) If the issue continues, I contact arbcom privately? Who will then appraise the conflict of interest. Great ok. Though that still leaves the question, who at Arbcom should one contact privately? Is it just anyone at all?
It would be great if the whole protocol, specifically this reporting procedure was well-defined and coherently communicated. As I'm sure this matter comes up a lot? When establihed editors aren't exactly sure on the steps to take, or who to contact. What hope is there for IP editors, or anyone equally unfamiliarized, to put in the effort, to get things looked at? Boundarylayer ( talk) 19:06, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
An RfC has been started on the Military History project's Talk page regarding mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht ("Wehrmacht Report"), a daily communiqué from the Wehrmacht High Command. Since the discussion has centered on issues of due / undue weight, I'm posting this notification here. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 00:00, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 70 | Archive 71 | Archive 72 | Archive 73 | Archive 74 | Archive 75 | → | Archive 80 |
The editor of "The Gateway Pundit" entry is not neutral and has interpreted the sources sited from an extreme viewpoint, not neutral at all. This entry should be re-written with much less bias and accurate sources.
Wikipedia Policy Has Not Been Followed for "The Gateway Pundit" entry. All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. It is also one of Wikipedia's three core content policies; the other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles, and, because they work in harmony, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another. Editors are strongly encouraged to familiarize themselves with all three.
This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:40C1:1E00:F8E3:E051:6DEF:1AA9 ( talk) 05:23, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
See [1]. User:Genghis khan2846 first removed the maps because " there is no map in the articles "Shamanism" and "History of Christianity"". I thought them useful and the rationale wrong so reverted. He's reverted me because "We cannot accept this. This is very much insulting to our religions." This doesn't seem to be an RS or NOR problem, so bringing it here. Doug Weller talk 18:01, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
There's a fair amount of POV-pushing ( WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH) going on there, claiming it's responsable for a famine (which is equivocated to genocide). Can I please get a few eyes on this? Thanks. Kleuske ( talk) 11:54, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Kleuske: I thought I'd check this out, the article says this: 'A rigid belief in laissez-faire guided the government response in 1846–1849 to the Great Famine in Ireland, during which an estimated 1.5 million people died. The minister responsible for economic and financial affairs, Charles Wood, expected that private enterprise and free trade, rather than government intervention, would alleviate the famine.'
Well, I don't think it's too bad, even if a free market type might have emphasized that 'it was becoming obvious by the end of 1845, that the potato crisis in Ireland was being aggravated by the restrictions imposed by the Corn Laws.'
A few more remarks: There was a decision in 1847 to cut Treasury spending on public relief efforts during the Irish famine. And there are Robert Peel and Charles Wood's macroeconomic policies of the 1840s, including the gold standard (classical liberal institution), the Bank Charter Act, and corn law repeal. Prime Minister Robert Peel was forced to resign in 1846 over the Repeal of the Corn Laws -- that is, the triumph of free trade (classical liberal institution) in Britain with the repeal of the Corn Laws by parliment in 1846. Without trying here, to reveal the whole story behind the repeal of the Corn Laws, the dominant economic theory in mid-nineteenth century Britain was Laissez-faire. As long as this theory held sway, Coercion Acts and extra British troops enforced laissez-faire exports from Ireland at the point of a bayonet. The economic theories of Thomas Malthus were very popular in England at the time of the Famine. Anyways, it so happens, that the Irish potato famine coincided with the repeal of the Corn Laws by the existing Prime Minister Robert Peel. The protectionist laws had been enacted in 1815 to artificially keep up the price of British-grown grain by imposing heavy tariffs on all imported grain. Under the Corn Laws, the large amounts of cheap foreign grain now needed for Ireland would be prohibitively expensive. English gentry and politicians reacted with outrage at the mere prospect of losing their long-cherished price protections.
In sum, I think the article could delve into greater detail, but of course that would make it longer. It is my understanding that British government officials and administrators rigidly adhered to the popular theory of the day. Throughout the entire Famine period, the British government would never provide massive food aid to Ireland. The British government also did not interfere with the English-controlled export business in Irish-grown grains. Large quantities of native-grown wheat, barley, oats and oatmeal sailed out of places such as Limerick and Waterford for England, even though local Irish were dying of starvation, thoughout the Famine years. Shaky Irish relief effort!
Of course, one might say that the potato crop in Ireland had never failed for two consecutive years. British officials believed the 1845 food shortage would likely end with next year's harvest. Also interesting, that most of the Irish countryside was owned by an English and Anglo-Irish hereditary ruling class. They held titles to enormous tracts of land long ago confiscated from native Irish Catholics by British conquerors such as Oliver Cromwell. The average tenant farmer, these Catholic farmers were usually considered tenants-at-will. Irish peasants were actually healthier than peasants in England or Europe. DanLanglois ( talk) 07:41, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Seems to be a very pov title, given the lack of evidence that this is actually a political movement. See for instance this article [2] which discusses bots, as does this one and Snopes [3]. Doug Weller talk 15:03, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
There is a request for comment on this at Talk:Poodle#Request for comment on how to describe the dispute over the origin of the poodle. Doug Weller talk 08:28, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
This IP keeps claiming Middle Easterners were considered white in South Africa. This is fine if he can provide a source, but he can't. (The only source provided indicates that some people from the northern Levant, e.g. Lebanese and Syrians, were considered white; it does not follow from this that Egyptians, Yemeni, Sudanese, Kuwaitis, Saudis, and all people from the Middle East were considered white.)
Of course if he adds a source that's great, and he can re-add this content. But I am skeptical of his claims because anecdotally, I have read accounts of North Africans in South Africa who were classified as "coloured" (a broad category that included not only mixed-race black people, but various nonwhite groups). It's also true that the "test" for determining whiteness in south Africa were quite ad hoc and turned on skin color and hair texture. In practice there were even cases of southern European people who were classified as coloured because they had darker skin and frizzy hair. /info/en/?search=Pencil_test_(South_Africa) /info/en/?search=Sandra_Laing. Given the diversity in appearance of Middle Eastern and North African people, it would be strange to assume all of them were regarded as white in South Africa without a source.
A good compromise might be to add "Syrian and Lebanese" rather than "middle eastern" to the description of white south africans, since this is actually supported by a source. Steeletrap ( talk) 14:06, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
I would like to disclose that I was banned a few years ago for significantly disruptive joke edits involving sockpuppetry on topics that are somewhat linked to the issue. I was later unbanned after two standard offer unban requests. The community did not choose to impose any form of topic ban. I do not have significant strong feelings or political biases regarding the topic. I would also like to note that there are relevant arbitration cases relating to this issue, including Falun Gong 2.
There is an ongoing NPOV dispute on Talk:Falun Gong. A version not substantially different from the last consensus revision in terms of POV is currently being maintained. User:Unicornblood2018, User:TheBlueCanoe, and I are involved.
The locus of the dispute is the inclusion of certain beliefs attributed to Falun Gong (that may or may not actually be held by that group) that might, to many people, appear absurd, such as beliefs regarding aliens and the divine status of its founder.
On 28 August 2018, Unicornblood2018 added information to the lede that had the effect of making the POV more negative. The information appeared to be based on reliable sources, but making information that dramatically shifts the consensus POV part of the lede seemed an incorrect editorial judgement to me. Furthermore, the text added was substantively similar to one of the sources used by Unicornblood2018. I reverted the edit, took the issue to the talk page, and re-added some of the information to a body paragraph in order to avoid dramatically shifting the POV from previous consensus. TheBlueCanoe later reverted my edit and re-added some of the information included within the edit. Information relating to the primary locus of the dispute was not re-added.
Unicornblood2018 has provided sources and information appearing to demonstrate his view that Falun Gong "could be described as a cult". The user appears to question Wikipedia's neutrality on this issue, indicating "And why are their teaching being unconditionally immune to any criticism on Wikipedia today by using Orwellian tactics by subtly stating neutral bias must equate to always seeing falun gong positively and nothing less than that , despite there are known truths that ring alarm bells?"
I have noted that "it doesn't matter how convincingly you argue that Falun Gong is a cult here, since Wikipedia is not an avenue for original research and its content must instead be based on what reliable sources say" and that "While Chinese Government-linked sources do include a lot of information that places Falun Gong in a bad light, and some of that information may be verifiably correct, such sources might not be appropriate for judging due weight due to their bias. Most uninvolved mainstream sources characterize Falun Gong as a respectable religious movement." I have also noted that the current article is a product of compromise and consensus; if a user wishes to change it significantly in a way that would alter its POV dramatically, they had better have a very strong argument.
TheBlueCanoe has concurred with some of my ideas. The user's talk page posts might not represent the entirety of their thoughts on this issue, given that they have stated "I hope to give you a more fulsome reply when I have I have a bit more time." The user has stated that not all beliefs of Falun Gong merit inclusion and emphasis, and that Wikipedia must use sound editorial judgment based on the weighting suggested by reliable sources. -- Leugen9001 ( talk) 16:43, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
This not my area at all, but this article -- from its very title on down -- seems problematic. -- Calton | Talk 06:59, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Please join the discussion and give your needed opinion on whether to include China's stance in the article Hamas to give it NPOV. We need consensus one way or the other. Thanks for your input. Veritycheck✔️ ( talk) 19:55, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Should the article; Desperate Measures (musical) include a template box for the separate casts or is prose enough? Please help form a consensus for the neutral point of view at Talk:Desperate Measures (musical)#RFC on inclusion of cast template box. Thank you.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 02:32, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Normally criminal cases, such as murders, where the murderer is not notorious the Wikipedia page is titled The Murder of XXXX and not titled after the name of the murderer. With that in mind, Maria Butina is the person named in the lawsuit United States of America vs Butina. Previous to being named in the lawsuit she was likely not notorious enough to deserve a Wikipedia page, although that might have been an omission given she seems to have created, a possibly defunct, gun rights organization in Russia. The prosecution, the DOJ, alleges that Maria Butina was an important agent of the Russian Government and therefore should have registered as a foreign agent under 18 USC 951. Her defense claims she was not an important agent of the Russian government and therefore had no need to register with the DOJ. If the defense is to be believed Maria Butina is not noteworthy enough to deserve a Wikipedia page in her name so the WP should be named USA vs Butina and Maria Butina should redirect to USA vs Butina. If the prosecution is to be believed Maria Butina is an important 'secret' agent of the Russian government and is noteworthy on her own merit of a Wikipedia page. An issue is at this point Maria Butina should be considered not guilty and therefore not noteworthy on her own merits. Her status as an important agent of the Russian government has not been determined by the court so her Wikipedia page should be renamed USA vs Butina.
My question: Should the Maria Butina wikipedia page be renamed USA v Butina, and perhaps rewritten to be about the issues surrounding the lawsuit and not Maria Butina (as she is not determined to be noteworthy)?
Geo8rge (
talk) 17:19, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Close per request. Excellent comment by The Four Deuces: " Neutrality does not mean neutrality between racism and anti-racism, but representing views based on their degree of support in reliable sources." — Paleo Neonate – 05:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
"The slogan has been spread by neo-Nazis, and racist groups including white supremacists." is what is in the lead section on It's OK to be white. It fails MOS:LEAD, which states "[The lead] should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view." This is not a neutral point of view and should not belong in the lead. This should not be in the lead. Computer40 «» (talk) 06:34, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Someone uninvolved close this until the OP fully engages on the article talk. O3000 ( talk) 00:42, 7 September 2018 (UTC) |
The style of the article suicide implies by what "facts" are stated in the lede and infobox a moral imperative to prevent.
By implying rather than explicitly stating, the article offer no opinion about exceptions to that moral imperative.
Moreover, the opinion is expressed in wikipedia's editorial voice, as if it were the opinion of Wikipedia en masse.
Make no mistake, fellow wikipedians, all morals are opinions.
Talk:Suicide#RfC: Neutrality Challenged
2600:1702:1740:2CA0:6D5B:7F89:FF9:190 ( talk) 08:12, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
OP pinging potentially interested parties 03:38, 3 September 2018 (UTC) @ SMcCandlish: Having found you by your noticeboard post and discussion for Talk:Rape_myth#Improper_tone_and_approach this being a similar natured issue, also noticing you mention having schooling in Anthropology and Communication, I figured you might have at one point studied ethics regarding suicide in ancient civilizations. @ Arnoutf: Reading through Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_15#If_a_majority_(or_all)_of_the_sources_for_factual_claims_about_Jesus_are_Christian,_is_it_proper_to_mention_that?, your perspective was neutral on the over all topic while solely interested in the article covering bias necessary for research and, from my perspective, how it affects alternative views. Also, noticing mentions about experience as a behavioral researcher, that I imagine you could give expert input about the article in question here. @ RGloucester: You're a senior editor who according to your contributions and user_page doesn't find editing extremely politically charged topics on Wikipedia stressful. I officially challenge you with my non-existent personal authority to find a more stressful topic to dispute on all wikipedia.
Considerable activity from disclosed and previous activity from undisclosed paid editors (article creation) are influencing this article in a manner that is WP:UNDUE
It is important to remember that even disclosed contributions from paid editors risk violating WP:DUEWEIGHT. This holds also when acceptable sources are suggested, or when suggestions seem reasonable. The corollary is that these edits would not occur without suggestion by the editor, and when compared to the rest of Wikipedia the article is made to read as a puff piece. We lack the time to find and evaluate the sources that are intentionally excluded from suggestion by paid editors. Each second spent evaluating suggestions from paid editors hinders research into non-biased coverage. It is not enough to find your own sources if the suggested edit is from a paid source (see [6]). The relevant policy by which we can entirely ignore paid requests is WP:CONFLICTOFINTEREST.
Additional eyes needed to assess this.
Carl Fredrik talk 09:59, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
A question was brought to the fore on the Village Pump (see: QUESTION) where we had asked about the propriety of having two different distinctions for Israel and Jordan when it comes to their conquest of the West Bank, the one (Jordan) in 1948, and the other (Israel) in 1967, and where the one (Jordan) is universally referred to in Wikipedia articles as "rule over the West Bank," whereas the other (Israel) is referred to as "occupation of the West Bank." The reply given to us is that Wikipedia does not WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS... it merely chronicles what reliable sources say about a topic," and that 'occupation' is the term that is "used in the real world... by the overwhelming majority of reliable sources."
So, if we cannot expunge the fact that in the real world they do, indeed, use the term "occupation" with respect to Israel's hold of these territories, can we at least add as a supplement the lesser known view (as held by the majority here, in Israel, and even by the current government) that the Israeli government objects to its being labeled as "occupier" in the traditional sense, due to the absence of prior sovereignty? I call your attention to the following articles published by JSTOR, see: Why Is Israel's Presence in the Territories Still Called "Occupation"?, and The Need for Fundamental Change in the Law of Belligerent Occupation. In order to give a more neutral point of view - without expunging the word "occupation," is it permitted for editors in articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict to write in the sub-section "Post-1967" in pages such as Jab'a, Khirbet Beit Zakariyyah, Husan, Battir, Nahalin, Beit Fajjar, Beit Ummar, Tuqu', Nablus, Beitin, As-Sawiya, Beit Iba, al-Khader, Burin, Nablus, Jenin, al-Eizariya, etc., etc., etc., that "such-and-such a town is under Israeli occupation in the absence of prior sovereignty"? (emphasis mine, according to page 46, of article Why Is Israel's Presence in the Territories Still Called "Occupation"?). We have already seen its precedence in the past, where arbitrators have agreed on a neutral wording with respect to Israeli settlements in the West Bank (See text here). Perhaps another way of preserving WP:NPOV would be to add after the word "occupation" the following: "While Israel's Supreme Court has labeled Israel's presence in the West Bank as 'belligerent occupation,' many in Israel dispute the notion of occupation, on grounds of its presence in the country before 1948." Be well. Davidbena ( talk) 13:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
References
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"While Israel's Supreme Court has labeled Israel's presence in the West Bank as 'belligerent occupation,' many in Israel dispute the notion of occupation, on grounds of its presence in the country before 1948."Specifically, I'm asking permission to say this in the sub-section entitled "Post-1967" in articles treating on those Arab-villages named by me above, and those with similar sub-sections, where the village is always listed there as being under "Israeli occupation," and where in the sub-section entitled "Jordanian era" the same village is described as being under "Jordanian rule" (a clear POV distinction). I do believe that editors on Wikipedia should be passionate about what they do here, and since this falls under the scope of WP:NPOV the suggestion should not be seen as frivolous, strange or unusual. In fact, it is similar to what we've seen with respect to Israeli settlements in the West Bank here. In my humble opinion, this would bring a semblance of balance to our otherwise good articles. Davidbena ( talk) 03:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
"such-and-such a town is under Israeli occupation in the absence of prior sovereignty."This statement is very terse and incorporates complete balance in a most subtle way. The words "in the absence of prior sovereignty" will include several references, and which fact, by the way, is not disputed by anybody. It is not a minority POV claim as you have surmised to say. It simply adds balance to the articles named. Davidbena ( talk) 04:44, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
References
I've stumbled across Arun Pudur, an article about an mysterious maybe-billionaire. He was subject of controversy in 2016, when Forbes discovered they could not verify any sources of income that would account for this wealth. This link was included in the article, but in a very unobstrusive way at the end of the article, while the claims of incredible wealth stay in the first sentences.
Two years have gone and Dupur seems to have dropped from the news entirely. More: His companies have, too. The website of the Pudur corporation, which according to LinkedIn has 60 million costumers, arundupur.com is down. So is celframeoffice.com, the alleged source and his wealth and according to the Wikipedia article a close competitor to Microsoft office. celframe.com is still online, but does not show any signs of business activity. It seems pretty clear: This person is not the successfull entrepreneur, he claimed to be. But how do you incorporate a lack of sources into an article? -- 2A0A:A543:8471:0:76D4:35FF:FE03:2B7E ( talk) 08:44, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
RfC is here. petrarchan47 คุ ก 04:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Talk:Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party/Archive 7#RfC: Inclusion of expert opinions, views of pundits, activist groups, tweets, etc. may be of interest to board followers. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:33, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Purplebricks ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
A few IP and new editors have been removing sizable chunks of content and/or rewriting content on this article with an obviously positive tone. However, the article before the disruption started was very obviously negative in tone. Additionally, I have noticed at least one editor using "our" to describe the article, implying a possible COI. Requesting more eyes/help with this situation, as I don't have the time to do a more NPOV rewrite on my own right now. Aspening ( talk) 21:28, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Following up on a post at the Teahouse, it may be helpful to get more robust participation at this RfC in order to form a more solid consensus one way or the other. GMG talk 12:35, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to solicit comment on the edits Batreeq has made to Mujaddid. I don't think they reflect WP:NPOV and are basically anti-Ahmadiyya POV that go against extensive discussion of the article content. PepperBeast (talk) 02:51, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:St Paul's Church, Auckland#Various issues. — Marchjuly ( talk) 10:39, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
As discussed in the talk page, there is dissagrement on the content that is in the section about criticism. Comments are needed to reach consensus and achieve neutrality. Rupert Loup ( talk) 10:34, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Presidency of Rodrigo Duterte ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
A few IPs have been writing content with a very negative tone. Some of the statements even include possible opinions/OR and/or fake news. Here are some examples:
I've tried to make some changes (tried to be as neutral as possible) ( diff) but they've been undone ( diff here) by an IP. However I have managed removed some of the aforementioned statements so its not there anymore. Please read the entire article. Requesting some open eyes to help, because I don't have a lot of free time, however I'm trying to make an NPOV rewrite in my sandbox. ITSQUIETUPTOWN talk • contribs 13:49, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Our article on Repeal of Prohibition in the United States says that:
There are indeed some sources that support at least some of those claims, [7] [8] but a `quick web search also finds:
So which view is supported by the sources? Or could it be, as one source says, "In truth, nobody really knows exactly how much alcohol consumption increased or decreased during Prohibition. The reason was simple enough -- people like Al Capone didn't pay taxes on their product and thereby report their production to the government. Licensed saloons became illegal speakeasies, and many common citizens took advantage of the high sales price of illegal booze by secretly manufacturing booze in their own bathtubs."? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 04:40, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
See Talk:KosherSwitch#NPOV -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:18, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
An RfC regarding PSCI and FRINGE (components of NPOV) has beeen started here [11]. Tornado chaser ( talk) 21:36, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
An editor has claimed that including the material removed in this edit with this source and this source is a "clearly UNDUE" because in his words there is "scant coverage" in a "weak source" in the case of the Daily Beast. When the book published by Routeledge was brought the user continues to say that this is "clearly UNDUE". Would the inclusion of that material with those sources be UNDUE weight? nableezy - 20:25, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Since the comparison between the two trips is made in a single source...That is untrue. Aside from the Daily Beast, there is a secondary source making the connection here. And the reason it was brought to this board, of course, was because Icewhiz objected based on WP:UNDUE, which is a WP:NPOV objection, but declined to bring it here himself. While we're on the subject, I agree that the topic area would improve if some of the numerous "aggressive and pushy editors" involved in it would step back for a few months, or at least tone it down; but I think that such editors are more likely to listen to people who they perceive as generally agreeing with them rather than ones they've had frequent disagreements with in the past (so they trust that the concerns are good-faith efforts to keep them as productive editors, rather than just being an attempt to settle ongoing content disputes.) I think that if you wanted to get the ball rolling on that, there are a lot of editors who generally agree with you, involved in this topic area, who you could talk to yourself regarding being less aggressive and pushy. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:49, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
The lead sentence of the article Francisco Franco states, "Francisco Franco Bahamonde[a] (/ˈfræŋkoʊ/;[2] Spanish: [fɾanˈθisko ˈfɾaŋko]; 4 December 1892 – 20 November 1975) was a Spanish general who ruled over Spain as a military dictator". I revised that single word so that the sentence indicated "leader" instead of "dictator", but my edit was reverted. The problem is that no one else is described as a dictator, military or civilian, in the lead sentence of their respective articles. Not Stalin, not Khrushchev, not Ceaucescu, not Castro, not Duvalier, not Ataturk, not Kim Il-sung, not Kim Jong-un, etc.
In fact, very few, if any, are described as dictators at all. Hitler is described as a "dictator" in the third sentence of his lead paragraph. In his lead sentence, Stalin is described as a "revolutionary and politician", Mao as a "communist revolutionary", Kim Il-sung as a "Supreme Leader", Ataturk as an "army officer, revolutionary, and founder", Mussolini as a "politician and journalist who was the leader", etc. We have previously had deletions of categories and lists of dictators, such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dictators or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dictators currently in power. Views from editors on this subject would be welcome. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:47, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
It could be because right-wing dictators are de jure dictators while left-wing ones are not in most cases.Excellent point, makes sense to me. —DIYeditor ( talk) 02:24, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
"Stalin" "dictator"
returns over 2 million results, many of them RSes, and the top one is
our article on the man, so I wouldn't put too much weight in the notion.
ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants
Tell me all about it.
This is definitelly an extremelly interesting topic. My personal view is that we should not label anyone as "dictator" in the first sentence. Dictator has clearly a negative conotation, and by labeling someone as dictator we are taking sides thus breaking neutrality. Another aspect is how much of a dictator a leader has to be to deserve being labeled as one right in the presentation sentence? Also, we will inevitably end up finding some leaders in the grey area and it is utopical to make a strict separation point. My proposal would be to write the introducing first sentence without the labeling of dictator for all cases, and then point out next that by most historiographers (or which ones) they are considered or refered as dictators. FkpCascais ( talk) 17:33, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
The opening sentence should contain strictly the official titles for all politicians, without exception. President, PM, etc. As far as I know, there is no official title of "dictator" thus that description is always subjetive to the description of the nature of that leaders rule, and that should not be included in the opening sentence. Agreed? FkpCascais ( talk) 21:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
In the absence of a specific guideline, the decision on Wikipedia to use the term "dictator" is basically left to the random perspective of individual editors. As pointed out at the top of this thread, some form of consensus apparently existed to avoid the use of the term and to delete various lists of dictators past and present, but those discussions were held twelve years ago and WP:Consensus may change. For example, only the middle one has apparently been a dictator, as of this writing:
"s far as I know, there is no official title of "dictator""
Wrong. "Dictator" was a political office in the Roman Republic. The Roman dictator was a magistrate "entrusted with the full authority of the state to deal with a military emergency or to undertake a specific duty. All other magistrates were subordinate to his imperium, and the right of the plebeian tribunes to veto his actions or of the people to appeal from them was extremely limited."
We have a List of Roman dictators, starting with the original office-holder ( Titus Lartius) in 501 BC, and ending with the death of the last office-holder ( Julius Caesar) in 44 BC.
Dictator as a modern term derives from the Roman title, and comparies the supposed power of various leaders to the imperium of the actual dictators. Dimadick ( talk) 10:56, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Should any article mention that the subject was featured in a Google Doodle? There were some attempts to discuss at Talk:Google Doodle. A couple hundred articles seemingly unrelated to Google link to it, and there might be more mentions without a link, so I'm asking here to have some consensus. wumbolo ^^^ 21:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
There are a few editors trying to remove the article, or strip any significant references to left-wing identitarianism from the article- even to the point of removing dictionary definitions. Apparently, some feel that identitarianism is only possible by white nationalists. All of the edits which remove this content, of course, are explained to be perfectly within the rules of Wikipedia.
In particular, User:Grayfell has removed significant content, but only the content that opposes the idea that others aside from white nationalists can be identitarians. Also, User:Objective3000 has been especially hostile toward trying to keep the article balanced and resorted to banning my account after I reverted an edit which was very WP:POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidBailey ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
especially hostileis absurd. Please read WP:BRD and WP:CON. Attacking other editors rarely leads to consensus for your edits. O3000 ( talk) 18:28, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
"John Gross FRSL (12 March 1935 – 10 January 2011[1][2]) was an eminent English man of letters. A leading intellectual, writer, anthologist, and critic."
Someone who knows something of the topic may want to take a look, the article seems to be on the positive side. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 21:16, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to request input regarding the Blue Army (Poland) article and assess the possible lack of neutrality in the text, which results form undue weight [(Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight]] "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement...".
This is a rather controversial topic and this dispute has been going on for a couple of YEARS now, where one editor user:Faustian was the author of most of the critical text related to the Blue Army and reports of anit-Jewish violence (which takes up a very significant portion of the article), and now again this editor is blocking any changes from being made to this text. Yet, when you step back and objectively take into consideration the scale of the events in question, this in effect is a secondary issue — since, three years of conflict and an army of 68,000 soldiers resulted in only a portion of the 200-300 Jewish casualties (total not just for the Blue Army but all of Polish forces numbering 200,000) according to the official Anglo-American report (in comparison to thousands of Poles and Ukrainians who were killed). Not to mention examples of current ongoing conflicts where similar sized coalition forces inflicted considerable civilian casualties due to abuses, lack of discipline and collateral damage, and how such information is presented in Wikipedia articles and what portion of the article is dedicated to such information. Thus, in this case placing undue focus on just one ethnic group, through depth of detail and quantity of text.
Thus, I'd like to request assistance from as many editors as possible, to have a fresh and objective look at the text, review the content and provide input and recommendations on how to restore balance to the article given the very large amount of text on this one topic. -- E-960 ( talk) 07:56, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
"bias and sensationalist"(an odd assertion for murder, robbery, and abuse - which is rather technical) - this is the language used by academic sources - History professor/Dr. Alexander Victor Prusin in an academic book and the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust published by Routledge (edited by historians Dr Robert Rozett & Dr Shmuel Spector). Icewhiz ( talk) 11:34, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Also, pls consider depth of detail and quantity of text in article. The section on anti-Jewish violence should be re-named and trimmed, since much less Jews died, than Ukrainians as a result of the Blue Army's actions. Yet, most sourced don't even bother to reference Ukrainian casualties, which were in the thousands, another example of bias.-- E-960 ( talk) 12:13, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
"it took part in warfare on the Ukrainian front, where, aside from its fine military performance, it was also involved in some anti-Semitic actions"[18]. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:31, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I am not sure where, if anywhere, it is better to take this other than the talk page, but that didn't even exist before I created it ~1.5 hours ago, so I am not anticipating much traffic there. Regardless, this complex issue is ultimately a neutrality matter, so hopefully this is the appropriate place.
The article, Photonic curing, is an orphan article that was created in July 2011 by a single-purpose account (SPA) with a declared conflict of interest, apparently first as a user subpage which was then moved by another user who is likewise a conflicted SPA. According to their respective user pages, both of them work at the same company which apparently invented photonic curing. Since the article's creation, there have been a few more drive-by promotional edits from employees of other companies, including some significant expansion by an IP address owned by the same company where the two aforementioned SPAs work. All that information is documented in the talk page's {{ Connected contributor}} template.
As of this version, the contributions from those two conflicted SPAs and that conflicted IP user still comprise 71.8% of the article's authorship, even after my minor edits (amounting to 4.7% of authorship). Moreover, it appears (virtually) all the references in the article are not independent sources, some of which appear to be authored by one of the conflicted SPAs.
How should I best proceed? I am not sure if this article deserves to be deleted, but it very well may fail a deletion discussion. If it is to be kept, then the article needs significant work, perhaps even a complete rework. Due to this subject being well beyond my scope of competence (and interest), I doubt I will be very helpful in that regard; however, I do not want to simply leave this article to be neglected for another near-decade, either. I do not typically deal with these situations, so advice is appreciated.
Thank you. — Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 00:23, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
Note: Since these edits are stale, I initially thought I should not notify the editors; however, after some consideration, it is probably necessary as a procedural matter. Consequently, I have alerted the following users:
Their notifications are here, here, and here respectively. While notifying the IP user, I noticed that Gogo Dodo had deleted the user talk page in July 2011 on G6 grounds. Ironically, that appears to be the closest to administrative attention this whole situation has ever gotten. — Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 00:57, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
There is an ongoing discussion about the suitability and handling of developer slogans without independent sources in this article, specifically about this content. Rather than repeating all arguments, the differing positions are outlined at Talk:OpenBSD#Current slogan removed. For transparency: I am only requesting help regarding the content-related question itself (a 3RR complaint about alleged conduct is pending). Any additional input from uninvolved editors about the content-related issue in this stalled discussion would be appreciated. GermanJoe ( talk) 14:19, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
User:Boud and I have been trying to find some compromises for the Non-science article. (If you are unfamiliar with the demarcation problem, then non-science is whatever's leftover, after you've defined some things to be science. Generally, among scholars, that means things like fine arts, but it also includes things like fashion or e-mail spam.)
A few days ago, Boud added this sentence to the lead:
"Hansson considers metaphysics and religion to be non-science"
Sven Ove Hansson is a well-regarded mainstream philosopher who wrote an entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (a highly reputable source that is used widely on Wikipedia). However, I don't think that this more-or-less universally agreed-upon statement should be given WP:INTEXT attribution to any singe person. Pretty much everyone except the fringiest of fringey sources agrees that gods and prayers and rituals aren't scientific, and I'm concerned that using INTEXT attribution in this case would make it seem like this is a minority point of view. What do you think? Should we use INTEXT attribution for this kind of statement? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 21:01, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I see no problem in improving on my latest edit to the article based on the above discussion; it's quite credible that philosophers of science in most cultures mostly agree that religion is non-science (although Dawkins strongly disagrees in the sense that religion makes claims that to some degree are testable). Unfortunately, this 8 Oct 2018 revert reversed a whole lot of other improvements going in the direction of inline sourcing, RS and NPOV. An earlier (8 Sep 2018) revert also made it hard to progress in improving the article. Talking about religion as a non-science was not the main issue here, and the revert re-introduced plenty of POV (see the DYK discussion and the talk page: in particular, the en.wikipedia is supposed to be about world knowledge, but written in English, not an English-speaking-world POV). Anyway, I'm not going to try any more edits any time soon in a situation where there are reverts rather than edits. Boud ( talk) 19:50, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
I really don't like the way this article is shaping up. The title suggests a historical overview of the topic, but in fact the article concentrates heavily on the present migrant "crisis". I'm not even sure that the title isn't WP:Synthesis. I would like to hear other views. Deb ( talk) 21:41, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
It's definitely an article that needs more eyes. The editor AadaamS adds content that AFAIK exclusively reflects poorly on immigrants, often sourced to German-language sources (which I'm unable to verify). This coupled with repeated attempts to remove reliably sourced content on the relationship between immigration and crime (both for Germany and Sweden) that provides a more nuanced view suggests that there is cause for concern. The editor has for example argued that high-quality English-language RS shouldn't be used in these articles, and has intermittently started edit-wars to remove the same RS content again and again (presumably in the hopes that other editors have stopped patrolling pages such as Immigration and crime, Immigration and crime in Sweden and Immigration and crime in Germany). Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 12:08, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
The reason that there are no reports for 2014 or earlier is that the report is about crime and the refugees who arrived beginning in 2015. In any case it appears to be synthesis. A tally of crimes by immigrants is presented with no analysis, which implies that immigration leads to crime without actually saying so. And the term immigrant is used in a way that would not normally be used in English to include people whose grandparents had immigrated to the country. (We don't for example refer to Donald Trump as an immigrant to America just because his grandparents were immigrants.) TFD ( talk) 04:31, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
As suggested, I've created Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Immigration and crime in Germany, where you can all have your say. Deb ( talk) 15:55, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
I never heard of this guy, but he founded a sub-movement within Roman Catholicism which apparently has a lot of followers. He seems to have been controversial, and the article contains an unsourced assertion that he is now under consideration for canonization. The narrative is written in a strange form of present-tense prose which reads as if it might have been ineptly translated from another language, possibly German. The primary authors seem to be preparing a defense for the guy as a good candidate for sainthood. I sometimes use the term hagiography metaphorically in Wikipedia discussions, but this one seems to veer close to the real thing. -- Orange Mike | Talk 16:04, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Mateo is insisting on moving the Hitler entry to the "Disputed" section List of vegetarians. His argument for doing so is that there are accounts of Hitler eating meat up to the 1930s.
It is true that Hitler ate meat up until 1937, and these accounts have been used by skeptics to challenge the cnotion that Hitler was vegetarian. For a long while Hitler was classified under the "disputed" section of the list. However, the facts have changed in the last five years. As documented at Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism Hitler's food tester came forward in 2013 and confirmed that all the food she tested was indeed vegetarian. And then last year a forensic analysis of the tartar on Hitler's teeth revealed that there were no meat traces. Both pieces of evidence corroborate Hitler's claim in 1942 that he was vegetarian.
To use outdated accounts as Mateo is doing is factually incorrect and agenda driven IMO. The Hitler entry satisfies all the criteria that other list members satisfy. Could I please get some neutral feedback at Talk:List_of_vegetarians#Hitler_as_a_disputed_vegetarian. Betty Logan ( talk) 12:44, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
There's a long-running discussion at Talk:AR-15_style_rifle#opinions_on_why_mass_shooters_choose_the_AR-15 concerning the reasons that mass shooters choose AR-15 style rifles and which viewpoints should be presented. Some editors feel that only the opinions of firearms experts should be covered, while others support the inclusion of "lay opinions" written by journalists in sources such as The Atlantic, New York Times and other media outlets. It would be helpful to have more voices in the discussion as only a few editors are participating. – dlthewave ☎ 13:26, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Comment: Why wasn't the article talk page notified of this discussion? Springee ( talk) 14:06, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is best now if we allow new blood to comment. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:21, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Dr. Pete Blair a Professor of Criminal Justice at Texas State University’s Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center(ALERRT) "which studies mass murder". They train law enforcement personnel in how to respond to active shooter incidents, the FBI started a partnership with ALERRT in 2013. He is a world renowned expert on active shooter events and has published numerous books, articles, and reports on the topic. He has also presented his research on active shooter events to the FBI, PERF, police chiefs’ organizations, and internationally.A criminologist that our FBI listens to, and can speak to criminals intentions.
Dean Hazen a cop for 25 years as Field Training Officer, SWAT Team Munitions Specialist, Glock Armorer and SWAT Team Operator, and recognized as a gun expert.Not a gun expert as claimed for "even a firearm instructors" but a SWAT Munitions Specialist and Armorer for 25 years makes him a gun expert.
journalist James Fallows "What is this gun? Why is it the weapon that people who want to kill a lot of other people, in a hurry, mainly choose?"
Journalist Tim Dickinson "the AR-15’s emergence as the main implement of mass murder last year"
I would point out that compiled data and expert analysis show these statements are factually wrong.Umm, those first quote is a question, not a statement. The second quote is a statement, but one the gun experts you cited all agree with: that the AR-15 style rifle is the most popular among mass shooters. And that's something you don't need to be an expert. Now, you can point to claims about "lethality" (which is a BS term if ever I've heard one: trying to boil down penetration, tumble, fragmentation and deflection into a single term is an exercise in futility) as being contradicted by experts, but then I can go get an expert to opine that the 5.56 NATA has excellent performance characteristics for killing quickly, and thereby agree with them. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:03, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is ok to add some views of journalists and such, but they should not overwhelm the article. Coverage in the media is generally relevant for articles, but it is not reliable for facts or conclusions that a surgeon, criminologist, ballistics expert, etc. would make - unless it is reporting those conclusions. And as came up with regards to this before, there is always a question whether a particular doctor is actually a reliable source on this specific topic, or is just reporting anecdotes and opinions. To sum it up, I agree with Masem that the spirit of WP:MEDRS applies, and the article should be strongly weighted toward the views of experts, and that statements or speculation by journalists, or other people who have not done rigorous study of this topic and been published in it as an expert, should be attributed and in no way described as factual. Also I wish that people who are either strongly pro-gun or anti-gun, or have strong opinions on mass shootings (not saying anyone in particular is or does) would leave articles like this alone. —DIYeditor ( talk) 19:56, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
@Simonm223: Ok, so you are anti-AR-15...I own a Bushmaster XM-15 in .223, a Bushmaster Carbon-15 (5.56) and an LWRC Six8 in (predictably enough) 6.8SPC. In addition, though this was many years ago, I have used several military variants of the rifle, including the M4A1 (with a SOPMOD B2 rig), an Mk12 SPR and a bog-standard M16A4. I am absolutely not "anti-AR-15" in any way. I love the platform and think it is the best all-around assault and sporting rifle platform.
sensationalized journalist speculation of a then news cycleover compiled data and expert analysis and claim it is the
mainstream vieweven when facts show it is incorrect. - 72bikers ( talk) 20:45, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
This was supposed to be about fresh eyes, so can those of us already involved please shut up? Slatersteven ( talk) 12:38, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Regarding frequency of use for any particular purpose, there is also the math of prevalence. As bundled here ("AR-15 style") that bundle is the most prevalent type of rifle and general purpose rifle in the US. North8000 (
talk) 13:17, 3 October 2018 (UTC) Editor is topic banned. –
dlthewave
☎ 15:14, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Let me clarify what I said: I am only suggesting that we verify the amount of media coverage before including many references to journalism itself, not that it should definitely not be included. It may be relevant to telling the story of the AR-15 if we can say there has been strong controversy over it, or quite a number of allegations against the AR-15, or other coverage in the media related to this article. The proportions in article space for each position should be related to how many relevant and significant RSs there are - we should not try to give equal weight unless it exists. WP:DUE is important and perhaps a little tricky to apply. Some weight should be given to prominent media opinions and the opinions of other credible critics. —DIYeditor ( talk) 06:39, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
promotes a copycat effectand provokes a need to outdo. He does not state any specific weapon used in the copycatting, just that
the medias specific sensational speculative claims provoke specific copying. We have in the article this statement from other experts mentioned above Hazen and Blair.
think that mass shooters' gun choices have less to do with the AR-15's specific characteristics but rather with familiarity and a copycat effectI feel because of the medias AR weapon of choice speculative claim, shows reason to use foxes views to support the AR copying by Blair and Hazen who also states this in there sources.
"to be widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes"This statement is only supported by the
mediaand in the article it does not state this definitive. All of the compiled data and expert analysis say handguns are overwhelmingly the weapon of choice 62% of the time and more recent 70%. Being the facts clearly say this media claim is grossly incorrect, making it just sensationalized speculation.
(I am not saying it needs to be removed, but just that it should be put into perspective.)I feel that Dr. Fox's comment on the medias sensationalized speculation's could be that perspective.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'd like to seek help with NPOV issues in the parapsychology article please.
I have been trying to make the article more balanced with the addition of peer reviewed articles from reputable journals. However every edit I make is being reverted.
For instance - https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Parapsychology&diff=861993182&oldid=861987230
I tried to change "It is identified as pseudoscience by a vast majority of mainstream scientists." to "Although it has been identified as pseudoscience by a majority of mainstream scientists for many years a recent review of research by psychologist Etzel Cardeña has found that "The evidence for psi is comparable to that for established phenomena in psychology and other disciplines, although there is no consensual understanding of them." [2]
I also added some information about the researcher who wrote this paper to the relevant section but it was reverted. See https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Parapsychology&diff=next&oldid=862096145
I also replaced the outdated definition in the lede with one that was from a reliable source, but it was reverted. See https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Parapsychology&diff=next&oldid=862113087
It was
Parapsychology is the study of paranormal and psychic phenomena, including telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, near-death experiences, reincarnation, apparitional experiences, and other paranormal claims.
I changed it to
"a branch of psychology that studies a group of phenomena collectively known as psi, a term referring to the transfer of information or energy that cannot be explained by known physical or biological mechanisms". [3]
I have another reference for a very similar definition "Parapsychology can be defined as the study of purported psi phenomena using the scientific method" which is Cardeña, E. (2018). The experimental evidence for parapsychological phenomena: A review. American Psychologist, 73(5), 663-677. But I haven't added it as every time I try to make the slightest change now it just gets reverted, even things that are fixing broken references and info about researchers.
Now editors are trying to have the Psychology sidebar removed claiming that its presence is promoting fringe ideas and claiming that parapsychology is not even psychology, despite my pointing out that The American Psychological Association thinks it is ( https://www.apa.org/pubs/highlights/psyccritiques-spotlight/issue-11.aspx) and The wikipedia psychology project thinks it is ( /info/en/?search=Outline_of_psychology).
I am being accused of promoting fringe ideas even though everything I have added is from reliable sources. Most of the arguments are simply other editors opinions that parapsychology is not reputable. No one has addressed my actual edits or sources other than in very arm wavy terms. They just keep repeating that I am violating policy and trying to promote fringe ideas.
Please take a look at the talk page and see if you can help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Parapsychology&action=edit§ion=3
I have notified all participating editors.
Morgan Leigh | Talk 12:27, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
References
"The American Psychological Association thinks it is [psychology]"is completely unjustified. -- tronvillain ( talk) 12:53, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
"The American Psychological Association thinks it is"implies. -- tronvillain ( talk) 15:09, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
There is a name for scientists who don't convince the skeptics: losers.I am afraid you are mistaken. The proper name is "crank", though yours is a more or less accurate descriptive. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:06, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Related: Related: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Paranormal -- Guy Macon ( talk) 04:22, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I was reading the WP:COI page and it directs one here for those who are dealing with a suspected editor with financial stake in the subject matter that they are editing.
As an editor who works in the pharmaceutical sector, I hope everyone would find it wholly inappropriate to see me editing the articles on competitor products, or downplaying or disappearing the negative effects of our own products.
However this is in essence precisely what is going on with an editor.
Now a big song and dance is made about not "outing", so do I put their username here, or do I get directed to a secret coven? Or what exactly is the protocol for having their undisclosed financial gain, recorded and dealt with?
Boundarylayer ( talk) 03:31, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Alright thanks for the replies, they were definitely a window into the inner workings. However the take-away seems to (1) Contact the editor on their talk-page, asking if they're aware of the seriousness of undisclosed conflict of interest editing, but make sure to not mention anything we know from off-site? (2) If the issue continues, I contact arbcom privately? Who will then appraise the conflict of interest. Great ok. Though that still leaves the question, who at Arbcom should one contact privately? Is it just anyone at all?
It would be great if the whole protocol, specifically this reporting procedure was well-defined and coherently communicated. As I'm sure this matter comes up a lot? When establihed editors aren't exactly sure on the steps to take, or who to contact. What hope is there for IP editors, or anyone equally unfamiliarized, to put in the effort, to get things looked at? Boundarylayer ( talk) 19:06, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
An RfC has been started on the Military History project's Talk page regarding mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht ("Wehrmacht Report"), a daily communiqué from the Wehrmacht High Command. Since the discussion has centered on issues of due / undue weight, I'm posting this notification here. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 00:00, 22 October 2018 (UTC)