The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Patar knight - ^chat/ _{contributions} 00:18, 19 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Immigration and crime in Germany

Immigration and crime in Germany (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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I have tried very hard to bring this article into line with NPOV but I see how that it is a hopeless struggle. As long as the article is present, certain editors will use it as an opportunity to peddle their view that crime in Germany is caused by immigration. Any historical facts that I've tried to introduce have been removed in favour of a long list of crimes committed by immigrants in recent years. As has been pointed out in the discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Immigration_and_crime_in_Germany, there is no real need for this additional article rather than just a subsection of Immigration to Germany or Crime in Germany. The very linking of the two in the article's title is synthesis, with the clear implication that there is a direct connection between immigration and crime. It has also been suggested that the topic is, in itself not notable because "the article ... used to establish notability of the topic, the Federal Situation Report on Crime in the Context of Immigration for years 2015 and 2016, is specifically about the immigration in 2015 and 2016, when the government allowed one million immigrants to arrive, not about earlier waves of immigration such as Turkish guest workers". I'm afraid I can see no way of avoiding this turning into another POV disaster except by deleting it so that we can at least keep all the questionable material in one place. Deb ( talk) 15:52, 11 October 2018 (UTC) reply

• Your efforts are in vain because you have tried to add material that is not about immigrants in Germany. Nor do I see any editors peddling "their view that crime in Germany is caused by immigration" (and this is a PA, and I ask you to strike it). I will add you have already managed to poison this AFD. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:00, 11 October 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment The German Federal Agency for Civic Education has a page named Ausländerkriminalität. The German name of this institution is Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung (BpB). The BpB page lists a number of further sources from the 1990s 2000s and 2010s and therefore the topic of this article lives up to WP:SIGCOV. While the article does have POV problems they are fixable. AadaamS ( talk) 19:53, 11 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Also this 1991 report from Munich University supports the long-term notability of the topic. AadaamS ( talk) 08:02, 13 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 22:20, 11 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 22:20, 11 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 22:20, 11 October 2018 (UTC) reply

• Retain. There are newspaper reports that can be used. It's a Notable subject. https://www.newspapers.com/image/193366967/?terms=immigrants%2Bcrime%2Bgermany BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 22:31, 11 October 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep - Controversial article I guess. But I see plenty of good sources. I can not really see a reason for deletion. More so a clean-up or possibly re-write certain sections. WP:GNG. BabbaQ ( talk) 22:33, 11 October 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep. This a legitimate subject simply because it was discussed in a lot of RS. If the research concluded there is no connection between Immigration and crime in Germany, this should be stated on the page. Basically, whatever sources about it tell. My very best wishes ( talk) 00:09, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep Article on a significant topic that is central to the contemporary German political and media conversation, article is well supported by WP:RS and has had dozens of editors over the years. Nomination is WP:FORUMSHOPPING by an editor whose arguments were rejected on article's talk page. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 06:01, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep. Clearly notable topic with ongoing coverage of various aspects. In as much as there is a POV issue - deletion is not cleanup. Icewhiz ( talk) 07:53, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment - the paragraph about Nazi period spreads Nazi propaganda.

That paragraph was about German interwar racism, not about immigrants, so I removed it. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 09:46, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Sorry about my English, but I mean Forced labour under German rule. The crimes included consensual sex with German women (hanging), no bending toward German people, any protests caused by bad conditions. Xx236 ( talk) 10:08, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply

• I concur and have deleted this material which is about forced labour, not about immigrants, see my comments at article's talk page. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 10:23, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Crime in Germany describes also criminality of immigrants. The two pages should be integrated. Xx236 ( talk) 08:07, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Crime in Germany is an article in need of improvement, not least because it fails to even address the most salient aspect of the topic, which is that Germany has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Nevertheless, it it should serve as an overall summary of the topic, not least because with almost 300 articles in Category:Crime in Germany we can hardly redirect everything form everything from Human trafficking in Germany, Rape in Germany, and Corruption in Germany to Crime in Germany, which is the logic of your proposal. What might make sense would be to redirect some of the material on organized crime in immigrant groups ("Russian mafia," "Albanian mafia," and so forth,) which feels like WP:UNDUE overemphasis on the page Crime in Germany to this page on "Immigration and crime in Germany." Caveat: sourcing for some of these organized crime groups looks pretty thin, and page Crime in Germany has not received much editorial attention, and little improvement in sourcing in the years it has existed. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 10:13, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep - per RS. Stefka Bulgaria ( talk) 10:50, 12 October 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep per above. Apply for a lock and do God's work. – ♠Vami _IV†♠ 12:08, 14 October 2018 (UTC) reply
• Snow Keep already - An excellent, well-sourced article with very solid WP:RS. Can it be improved? Sure, what Wikipedia article can't? XavierItzm ( talk) 11:46, 15 October 2018 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.