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A couple of editors have been edit warring over some specific wording in the lead of Alger Hiss. For the most part it appears the content dispute relates to the reliability of and weight to be given to specific sources. The editors are now trying to craft an RFC to address the content dispute in a rational manner. Input from interested parties in this project would be useful. -- Mike Cline ( talk) 15:08, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
At Climatic Research Unit email controversy article, better known as Climategate, we have a dispute regarding the reliability of three proposed sources. There was another posting of CRU emails by "Mr. FOIA" in the middle of March, 2013. Two months later there's no mention of this event in the article mainspace, and one comment by an IP editor on the Talk page. This is the third such posting by Mr. FOIA. The first two are already covered in the article mainspace; and the first one (with its reaction) makes up the bulk of the controversy, and the article. The third posting has been reported by at least three sources I believe to be reliable:
ALl three of these sources take a climate-skeptical view, which might be why I've run into such resistance on the article Talk page. I only intend to use the Delingpole blog from The Daily Telegraph the CFACT website, and the Larry Bell op-ed column in Forbes, and only to establish that "Mr. FOIA" sent a final message in March, along with a password to an online cache containing what were purported to be more CRU e-mails. Maybe a few other details. But I do not plan to use these as sources for the authors' opinions about the content of those emails. Thoughts and comments, please. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow ( talk) 12:28, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd like some guidance to help understand when, if ever, material from WikiLeaks can be used. I just saw a discussion that stated that it could not be used in BLP on the grounds that it amounted to being original research. That surprised me, as just reporting what's in the documents does not to me seem to be research. But if that's so, would the ban also apply beyond BLP?-- Perplexed566 ( talk) 15:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi, is Ancestry.com an acceptable source for a deceased person, bearing in mind WP:BLPPRIMARY? Article is Harry Noon, I have an IP who says he is the subject's son-in-law wanting to use it to verify date of death. Giant Snowman 15:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
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17:21, 29 May 2013 (UTC)Ancestry.com is not reliable because the information is uploaded by users. Regarding the sidebar about notability, the lack of a reliably sourced death date does not reduce an already-established notability. Binksternet ( talk) 17:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
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01:44, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps just to give all these angry people something else to focus on, here is something I posted a long time ago re Ancestry, public records, and so on. Someone once complimented me on it, so maybe it's worth something. EEng ( talk) 01:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I knew this ( Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites) had to exist somewhere on wiki, and someone just mentioned it in a thread below. Should this website be added to that page since it has been discussed here at RSN so many times? A quick pointer to this would be handy. He iro
Is A Columbine Site reliable for information in the Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold article regarding their biographies and the events of the Columbine Massacre? An editor on that article's talk page stated, " I'm skeptical about the journal entries from a questionable source and copied across a handful of blogs. Is there any evidence these are the real entries instead of fictional writings?". I don't know if it's reliable or not, so I tried addressing this by replacing some of the citations of that source with better ones, or removing them altogether instances where they were not needed. But not all of them.
At present, however, five different pages on that site are still being used to support a number of passages in the article, which are a bit difficult to find replacements for:
Is it reliable? Nightscream ( talk) 19:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
This website appears to be in the spam filter. Are we to assume that eHow can never be used as a citation for an article then or is this a mistake? Thanks. Naapple ( Talk) 20:12, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a discussion happening here regarding material allegedly from a little known publication known as Zoom magazine. An editor is repetitively adding a quotation from this publication and offering only "Zoom, 1979" as the citation. He admittedly does not know what issue, if any, the material originates from. He has been confronted by multiple editors on the basis that this material is not properly sourced but he is obstinately refusing to acknowledge that Wikipedia:Verifiability is not being met. ChakaKong talk 16:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump: thank you for locating the disputed source
Paul B: thank you for your support
Pigsonthewing: thank you for your robust defence
Jason: thank you for your attempts to reach a fair resolution
Chaka: I appreciate that in the first instance you were simply applying your interpretation of Wikipedia's rules on citation. I bear no hard feelings and hope that feeling is mutual
Let's all move on and enjoy the sunshine!
best wishes Bruno MacDonald BrunoMacDonald ( talk) 21:07, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. On the Bob's Burgers (season 4) page, me and User:Archcaster were involved in a dispute. At one point, he reverted an edit of mine, which sourced a start date of the season to the show's writers official blog, back and reported me. Eventually, I managed to explain myself and he seems to be okay with my explanations, so conflict resolved there. I added it back to the page.
However, the reliability of the blog came into question by several other people, who stated the blog is not reliable. Seeing as how the official Twitter has noted the page, which confirms it is an official blog used by the writers, I am stumped. So is the blog reliable?
Here is the official Bob's Burgers Twitter and here is the site in question. Beerest355 Talk 01:44, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
As a newbie to WP conflict, I did not know to come here earlier. It has been suggested Oct 2012 - Apr 2013 that the following sources are deliberately misread by me to push my agenda to include islanders, "civilized and savage" in the US for the 'United States' article, but I do not mean to distract or dissemble, I sincerely restate my understanding. Here it is: “The US is a federal republic of 50 states, DC and five organized territories.” [note] The United Nations monitors Guam, American Samoa and US Virgin Islands as non-self governing territories of former colonial peoples, 18 Dec 2012. Viewed June 3, 2013.
The challenge of my interpretation of sources begins with the Congressional statute defining the term “state” in the law to include DC, Guam, US Virgin Islands, Northern Marianas and Puerto Rico. I am said to misread the definition to include territories in the official US, but it really means to exclude them from the US? The unrelenting critique without exception ends with the quote from Bartholomew Sparrow, who says, "The US now includes" territories; but he really means the US excludes them, today?
Primary sources. By the Montvideo Convention, Articles 1 and 2, the US is a "sole person" in its federal republic as represented in Congress: 50 states, DC and 5 territories of citizens. There are three other "States in free association". By Congressional statute, " Aliens and nationality", “Definitions. 29. American Samoa (AS) is an "outlying possession". 36. State includes [DC], Puerto Rico, Guam, US Virgin Islands, and Northern Mariana Islands (MP). [p.22-23]. This definition is reiterated throughout US Code.
Secondary USG. US Foreign Affairs Manual says the term ‘US’ geographically includes four territories (PR, GM, VI, MP), and 'outlying possession' (AS) [p.18,22]. Insular Affairs, Application of the US Constitution reports all with self-government. [p.8] “Native-born Americans” are citizens (PR, GM, MP, VI) or nationals and citizens (AS). Territory residents enjoy rights of citizenship, due process and equal protections. [p.33, 35] The Executive interprets 'US', to include five territories." Native-born American" include those born in five US territories. Welcome, a guide for immigrants citizenship, p.7, “The US now consists of 50 states, the District, [five] territories."
Scholarly sources. Lawson and Sloane in the Boston College Law Review, “Regardless of how Puerto Rico looked in 1901 when The Insular Cases were decided or in 1922, today, Puerto Rico seems to be the paradigm of an incorporated territory as modern jurisprudence understands that legal term of art.” [p.1175] Political scientist Bartholomew Sparrow summarizes, the US has always had territories… “At present, the US includes the Caribbean and Pacific territories, [DC] and of course the fifty states.” ( Levinson and Sparrow, 2005, p.232).
This is a sampling, there are over 20 others. Any review or critique of these sources by WP criteria would be sincerely appreciated. I am repeatedly asked why I would bring up this subject at all. My sole purpose is to contribute knowledge to the article from reliable sources, as I believe the US to be competent to define its international geographic extent. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
In this as in most things you will find Golbez infinitely more reasonable than others in opposition to islanders being admitted to WP.USA. There is no scholar to say, "Modern US territories are not a part of the US politically". The Foreign Affairs Manual does not, as others have speculated, --- the federal republic is treated as a "sole individual" in the eyes of International law according to the Montevideo Convention referenced -- not states (50), territories (5) and municipalities (DC). There are notable distinctions between states and not-states; DC and territories are not states but both are still a part of the federal republic by citizenship and territory Members of Congress. If DC is in the first sentence, the territories should be. Consider presidential vote, federal courts and House membership.
A constitutional amendment was passed for DC to vote three electoral votes, regardless of its population, whereas states have electoral votes apportioned by population. Territories have Article III constitutional federal courts as do states, they are superior to DC's Article I congressional courts. Both DC and territories have Members of Congress with privilege of floor debate, but not voting in House meeting as H. of R. -- just as all previous politically incorporated continental territories.
In what way can a territory be "unincorporated" since the Supreme Court invented the term without Congress? By judicial holding that a territory is not subject to the Uniformity Clause required of states, for the purposes of discriminatory tax regimes favoring substantially poorer territories over states. [see Legal scholar Krishanti Vignarajah in the U. of Chicago Law Review p.789-790.] The political branch Congress, determines citizenship, and that citizenship "incorporates" the territories politically. But territories (unlike their citizens protected by due process) are not equal to states in tax regimes, or proportionate presidential electors, or proportionate representation in the House. Sources report the 5 territories are included in the US, the political scientist as referenced can be safely assumed to be speaking of things political as well as geographic.
Generally, Wikipedia cannot be used as a source on Wikipedia. The link to wikipedia Unincorporated territories of the United States leads off with an error asserting that all judicially ‘unincorporated’ territories are unorganized; there are nine unorganized territories, --- none are the five under discussion with full US citizenship, fundamental constitutional rights, local three-branch self government, Article III courts, and territorial Member of Congress --- just as every previously politically incorporated territory has enjoyed for 220 years of US constitutional practice.
The lead should report 50 states or 50 stats, DC and 5 territories within the federal republic. But regardless, I do like that suggestion to document the discrepancies between states versus the territories and DC. It could lead to a section of the statehood movements in DC and Puerto Rico, which are especially important in contemporary US. Puerto Rico territorial legislature has petitioned Congress for statehood for the first time -- it is larger than the smallest 20 states. The statehood movement in DC has resulted in all license plates reading, "No taxation without representation." -- meaning in the Senate, as DC has more population than Wyoming. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 05:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC) 09:11, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
GRuban was kind enough to repeat Golbez language, and Golbez was kind enough to correct him based on our agreed discussion since October 2012. I would like another opinion, even if the conclusion is the same as Golbez again, perhaps without wikipedia sourcing wikipedia.
Is there a second opinion other than Golbez, again? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC) 08:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Another editor and I are having a disagreement that I think could benefit from some help from this noticeboard. The issue centers on determining the official name of a TV-game-console combo set produced by the Sharp Corporation. The other editor has strenuously argued that the official name of the TV is "SF1" and his evidence for this consists of the box that the TV came shipped in, the TV set itself, and possibly promotional advertisements and fliers. He hasn't offered any links to the images he's referring to, but a Google image search gives you a rough idea. From images of the TV set itself (e.g. 1) as well as from a number of third-party RSes (considered RS by WP:VG/RS anyway) (e.g. 2, 3, 4)) I've drawn a different conclusion regarding the official name of the TV. I think it's called the "Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1". The other editor acknowledges that my version does appear on the TV set and in the third party sources, but he has determined that the first half of the name "Super Famicom Naizou TV" is a descriptor term and not part of the official name of the TV. His evidence for this consists of the same TV box, same TV set, and the same promotional advertisements and fliers. I've been making the point that box art and promotional advertisements' use of a term is not the same thing as their making a claim regarding the "official" status of the term, but the other editor disagrees. He believes that the box art is the highest form of source for the official name and that the box makes the claim that other terms (e.g. those used by the third-party reliable sources) are incorrect. Who's right here?
In addition, could you please help us settle once and for all whether or not box art, TV sets, and promotional materials are considered self-published at Wikipedia or not? Because this article concerns the product of the company I believe that any actual claims of SPSes may properly be used in the article, but the other editor is adamant that irrespective of anything else, they are definitely not self-published. So are they self-published or are they third-party or are they some different kind of source completely? Could you provide us with a brief explanation of what would be an SPS in this context because one of us is clearly quite confused.
This issue has been going on for days and we're going through an RfC now here in case anyone is interested in participating. But I've linked this RSN thread from the RfC so if you prefer you can limit your response to just the two RS-related questions: (1) May shipping box art be understood to be making a claim regarding the official name of a product? and (2) Are box art, TV sets, and promotional materials SPSes or not?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give us. - Thibbs ( talk) 21:08, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
As part of its translation algorithm, Google Translate analyzes patterns in documents that have already been translated by human translators, so basically its translation to "C1 NES TV" is most likely due to the fact that this is the term used by the majority of sources it checks. That seems to agree with the fact that "C1 NES TV" is the only term used by our third-party RSes. Omitting this term from the article due to speculation that it is not "official" misses the point of WP:UCN entirely. Even if it isn't official, there's no denying that it's the common name used by the majority of English-language sources and that it should thus appear in the article. - Thibbs ( talk) 15:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Somewhere in the maze of pages about WP:N and WP:RS I thought I saw something about travel magazines and travel guides not being reliable sources. I can't find it now, been looking hard. A particular notability guideline for hotels and resorts and WP:TRAVEL/WP:TOURISM pages doesn't yet exist. I'm thinking, if the "no travel mags/guides" restriction is correct - and I can see the issue with regular articles - it's not really "fair" to hotel and resort articles. If some fact about them is in such guides that's not in other sources, or if a Conde Nast or Travel Magazine or the New York Times travel magazine or other "calibre" travel publication has done a feature on them - not just a mention or a directory listing - that would seem to me to be in the "notable" ballpark, depending on the nature of the content cited and what's in the cite. Just being listed in travel guides of course isn't enough in any way. According to what's on the lede of List of hotels, any four or five star, anything of architectural or other special mention or that's a landmark or notable skyscraper, or has been the site of notable events (from world conferences or scenes of war - the Independence Hotel in Sihanoukville, Cambodia is both - to David Carradine hanging himself in what is now the Swissôtel on Wireless Road in Bangkok) are notable enough; that's not a formal guideline that I can find. I've queried at WP:WikiProject Hotels but as yet no response. Anyone here know the guideline passage I'm referring to? I'm also scouting around WP:HOTELS for examples of GA for hotels and anything else relevant to the making of good hotel/resort articles. Many WP:WikiProject Ski resort articles seem to have a lot of COI/PEACOCK issues and....dicey sources maybe. Skookum1 ( talk) 11:05, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a video recording of a speech that is of great public interest and is quoted in 2013 Woolwich attack. This has been done by incorporating a transcript of same. There are perhaps one or two full-length transcripts from what could be classified as reliable sources (actually I'm not very sure about the second one); there is another one, one we all agree to be accurate, sourced to a blog. There is agreement that, other than the blog, the transcripts quoting the full speech are not 100% accurate.
There are currently disagreements as to which version of transcript should be used in the article. The " reliability" of the blog has been challenged, and this has not been robustly defended. I and the challenger believe it's more important to cite a "wrong" transcript from The Telegraph, a RS, and attribute the content correctly, which would allow for easy verification and seems to be the standard approach. There is the feeling among some editors unhappy with the transcription errors that we should go directly to the primary source (the video), citing WP:IAR, and eliminate the error (which has now been done).
Of course, much of the problem could be circumvented if we merely excerpted the speech like most news articles have done, as I pushed for, but quite a few editors strongly insist that the speech must be in full. There is currently a full-scale tag-team edit war at the article. But instead of seizing ANI, I'm requesting intervention from anyone with experience of how a similar situation has been resolved in the past. Thanks, -- Ohc ¡digame!¿que pasa? 15:20, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
When it comes to quotations, my rule of thumb is this: When in doubt, cite the original primary source (or as close to the original as you can get). If the choice is a potentially flawed transcript of what someone said, or a video/audio recording of the person actually saying it... the second is a better, more reliable source.
That said, Ohconfuscius makes a valid point about the potential for doctored videos/audio files. The reliability of the "publisher" is just as important as the reliability of the "author". In the case of on line video/audio files, the "publisher" is the person who uploaded the video/audio to the file-sharing web site. I will leave it to those who know the specific video in question to say whether the publisher is reliable in this specific case.
Blueboar (
talk) 12:49, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
You should not report statements made by reliable sources that you know to be wrong. You know them to be wrong if you have played the video as hosted by another reliable source and there is no doubt what the person in the video said and it is different from the transcript published by a reliable source. This is nothing to do with interpretation. You are not interpreting if an incorrect transcript says "one horse" but you clearly hear the speaker in the video say "three dogs". If there is no reliable source publishing a correct transcript, refrain from quoting from an incorrect transcript. Instead put a link to the video so that readers can go there and play the video for themselves. You may still quote or paraphrase portions of transcripts published by reliable sources that are not blatantly, obviously wrong. Just ask yourself this: In the bygone era when "encyclopedia editor" was a profession and the people doing this job were getting paid, would an encyclopedia editor knowingly have published false information even if it came from a "reliable source"? 89.204.135.241 ( talk) 14:31, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
A Wikipedia editor wants the article on PRISM (surveillance program) to include the material highlighted in the box below, which cites a posting at www.ZeroHedge.com from yesterday, in which the poster is writing under the apparent pseudonym "George Washington":
On June 8, 2013 questioned regarding PRISM, highly placed NSA intelligence official , turned whistleblower William Binney confirmed and clarified U.S Senators Mark Udall and Ron Wyden 2011 allegation[40] by stating "the government is using a secret interpretation of Section 215 of the Patriot Act which allows the government to obtain any data in any third party, like any service provider… any third party… any commercial company – like a telecom or internet service provider, libraries, medical companies – holding data about anyone, any U.S. citizen or anyone else. In other words, the government was using the antiquated, bogus legal argument that it was not acting color of law using governmental powers, and that it was private companies just doing their thing (which the government happened to order all of the private companies to collect and fork over)".[41]
The ZeroHedge.com contributor wrote in the post, "Last December, top NSA whistleblower William Binney – a 32-year NSA veteran with the title of senior technical director, who headed the agency’s global digital data gathering program (featured in a New York Times documentary, and the source for much of what we know about NSA spying) – said that the government is using a secret interpretation of Section 215 of the Patriot Act which allows the government to obtain: 'Any data in any third party, like any commercial data that’s held about U.S. citizens ....' I called Binney to find out what he meant." From there, the post describes the interview.
I am not familiar with ZeroHedge.com. Does ZeroHedge.com follow the kinds of editorial content practices that would distinguish a widely respected media outlet like, say, the Washington Post from a self-published blog or online discussion board? Is it a reliable source for the material the Wikipedia editor wants to include? Dezastru ( talk) 01:21, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Are sports governing bodies considered reliable sources in regard to the titles of articles on their players? Powers T 20:05, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
A couple of months ago I posted a couple of message templates looking for an expert on "non-violence" to advise on two citations in an article on Pornography in the United States (the Anti-pornography movement section). I also started two discussion threads here and here.
Thinking about it since, the matter is probably more of a reliable sources issue concerning:
Content (refs 45 and 46)
Anti-pornography movement
(a) The so-called "Sex Wars" of the late 1970s[43] challenged the traditional understanding of the gender role. Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon became well-known often-cited anti-pornography authors. Many debates have attended their political intervention into the law by way of their advocacy of anti-pornography ordinances in several midwestern cities. Other notable American anti-pornography activists to belong to this camp are Robin Morgan and Susan Griffin. Ordinary libertarians, who separate sex and violence, take MacKinnon and Dworkin to task for their refusal to leave sexual expression alone.[44] This was done particularly by Gillian Rodgerson and Elizabeth Wilson in Pornography and Feminism: The Case Against Censorship: "Yet this theoretical cocktail of biologism and behaviorism is lethal. To see men as naturally programmed for violence is to endorse the most conservative views on human nature, and to see it as unchanging and unchangeable". Rodgerson and Wilson argue that pornography plays a relatively minor role in the wider regime of sexist practices pervading women's lives.[45]Pornography in the United States.
(b) Another matter, which frequently circulates in American anti-pornography movement is a close bond of pornography with rape. According to a 2006 paper, Porn Up, Rape Down, by Northwestern University Law Professor Anthony D’amato, "the incidence of rape in the United States has declined 85 per cent in the past 25 years while access to pornography has become freely available to teenagers and adults".Recognizing that the Nixon and Reagan Commissions tried to show that exposure to pornographic materials produced social violence, D'amato concludes that "the reverse may be true: that pornography has reduced social violence". D'amato suggests there are two predominant reasons why an increase in the availability of pornography has led to a reduction in rape. First, using pornographic material provides an easy avenue for the sexually desirous to "get it out of their system". Second, D'amato points to the so-called "Victorian effect". It dates back to the British Victorian era where people covered up their bodies with an immense amount of clothing, generating a greater mystery as to what they looked like naked. D'amato suggests that the free availability of pornography since the 1970s, and the recent bombardment of internet pornography, has de-mystified sex, thus satisfying the sexually curious.[46]
Both quotes make up the entirety of the Anti-pornography movement section of the article on Pornography in the United States. (Although to me it reads like a "Criticism of the anti-pornography movement".)
I would be grateful if other editors would take a look. -- The Vintage Feminist ( talk) 08:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I would like to invite broader discussion on whether it's appropriate to use primary sources from the company to report on revenue [11] and employee counts [12] for the infobox (see discussion here). A longtime contributor to the article feels he does not trust the sources, since the organization is private and there is no third-party to validate the accuracy of their numbers. I felt it was common (even preferred) for us to use up-to-date primary sources for infobox data. There appears to be enough different opinions on the Talk page to warrant opening it up for further discussion. I won't raise a fuss either way - just figured I would advertise for a few more opinions so we could move on to other more important issues with the article's general quality and poor use of sources. CorporateM ( Talk) 21:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I found the figures below at http://www.zoominfo.com/c/Publishers-Clearing-House/69583362.
$50 mil. - $100 mil.in Revenue 250 - 500 Employees
While not saying this is an authoritative source, the large discrepancy in revenue ($50 - $100 million versus the proposed $500 million), and broad range in number of employees would indicate that additional sources/verification should be obtained. Bilbobag ( talk) 16:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me that Persian Heritage (magazine) is reasonably reliable on non-controversial aspects of Persian history. The magazine's recent issues can be viewed at their website. Opinions? See also Talk:Ghaznavids#Flag. -- Bejnar ( talk) 08:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I would like to know if this source is reliable, because I would like to add "hard rock" on this Wikipedia page, to show the song is a hard rock song, but according to another user I talked with, it's not as reliable as it seems. Here's the content which talks about the song :
Like any great rock band Led Zeppelin was firmly rooted in the blues. “Nobody’s Fault But Mine” is a traditional gospel song made famous in 1927 by blues legend Blind Willie Johnson. This is a relentless rocker built behind a delta blues-based riff. “Nobody’s Fault But Mine” features Robert Plant playing a bluesy harmonica solo and Jimmy Page’s famous slide guitar intro. This is a song full of swagger and it shows Zeppelin’s ability to turn a traditional gospel/blues song into an all out blues jam mixed with a good dose of hard rock.
86.214.54.113 ( talk) 20:58, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
In fact it's a hard rock song which borrows blues elements from the original song. 86.214.54.113 ( talk) 21:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Please take a look at Allegations of CIA drug trafficking and specifically this diff: [13]. The editor has introduced three unreliable sources into the article and I am at 3RR. The sources are:
Thanks, GabrielF ( talk) 16:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
A request was made to the WikiProject Ireland to reassess the Brickens article but I am rather wary to give advise until I determine some issues. The article uses various maps as citations even though they don't actually state the facts alluded to. Can these be acceptable as reliable sources? I personally doubt it. I also find it very odd to see embedded links to external images, especially as their copyright status is unknown, which I though was also discouraged. Any comments and advise happily taken. ww2censor ( talk) 16:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Diff: [16] Rahul Jain ( talk) 03:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I just wanted to make a brief note, for future reference, of a message thread in the Jimbo Wales talk page in which he states that this encyclopedia deliberately inserts incorrect information to ensnare plagiarists. That's pretty shocking. That encyclopedia should not be used as a source, and if it is used that needs to stop. See [17]. This may not be new, but I did a search and found no record of it. Coretheapple ( talk) 21:31, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I think we may have some concrete examples of such copies without factual verification in this area, not necessarily by this encyc. Articles in question insofar are Vera Renczi and Bela Kiss. 86.121.18.17 ( talk) 07:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Are his books such as A Plague of Murder authoritative? I have some doubts given the complete lack of sources/footnotes etc. in that book. The same info is basically found in a web of "crime libraries" and other dubious encyclopedias, with more or less detail. 86.121.18.17 ( talk) 07:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi! From the talk page of Talk:PRISM_(surveillance_program)#Did_the_NSA_stop_Najibullah_Zazi.3F a Wikipedia user argued that an Associated Press article is not a reliable source because it does not show that the journalist did due diligence in doing research.
The article in question is this:
The Wikipedian argues that because the article lacks"93 wn app 154 "quotes by legal experts, law enforcement experts, prosecutors, or defense attorneys" the journalists did not do their due diligence and this article should not be considered a reliable source for the statement that "The FBI suspected that Zazi was a terrorist so they could have gotten a warrant and there was no need to use PRISM." Also he argued that it does not give an opportunity for the US government to respond to the claims made. WhisperToMe ( talk) 21:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I am having a problem with an editor at the Woman article where an editor refuses to use any of three online dictionaries for information on the origin of the word "woman" and instead insists on using his own dictionary which is not online and, according to the editor, has a different origin than the online dictionaries. Could I get some help? The discussion is on the talk page. Thanks. Gandydancer ( talk) 11:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Please see this site. I removed the source because it is from a self-made website without even basic information that reliable websites have. Also, the information it is used to source can be easily found elsewhere, and it appears the website is added wherever possible to direct more people to this page. I would like an outside opinion, as I am a bit suspicious of whether this site should be even on Wikipedia to begin with. Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 01:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
There is also this quote on the bottom of the page, which is a bit odd if it is supposed to be considered reliable: "Notice: The materials on this site represent the opinions of Dr. Edward Peters and do not necessarily reflect the views of others with whom he might be associated. Materials offered here are for informational and educational purposes only and are not intended as civil or canonical advice." Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 01:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I am bringing this back for discussion - I feel that the player profiles section of Transfermarkt (that is all we are discussing!) is not reliable, as the content is user-generated and there does not look to be any kind of moderation or checking. If I recall correctly, the website was used by notorious vandal Zombie433 ( talk · contribs) to introduce false statistics into Wikipedia. I feel that there are plenty of other reliable football database websites so there is no need to use Transfermarkt. Thoughts welcome, let's try and get some solid consensus this time! Giant Snowman 14:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
So are we agreed that this is not a RS? Giant Snowman 10:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The Local Coordination Committees of Syria (LCC) and Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) are two news outlets clearly affiliated to the Syrian opposition against the Assad regime. They publish daily death tolls which are usually unconfirmed by independent sources and which have been used, inter alia, in the Timeline of the Syrian civil war on a very regular basis. I have raised the issue of their use in two different venues ( Neutrality board and AfD for Timeline of the Syrian civil war (from May 2013)), but I feel we need a solution which covers WP.EN in its entirety. So, do you feel the LCC and SOHR are reliable sources which can be cited in WP or do you think these two groups are fundamentally unreliable sources and material relying on them should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion? Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 17:08, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is a non-partisan, neutral organisation. It routinely criticises both the government and the opposition for human rights violations. Show how it is biased?! Jafar Saeed ( talk) 14:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Schaefer, Carol (2006). Grandmothers counsel the world: women elders offer their vision for our planet. Boston: Trumpeter/ Shambhala Publications. ISBN 9781590302934.
This book is being used as a source for International Council of 13 Indigenous Grandmothers and biographies of the members (see at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/the remaining members of the council of grandmothers). I and various others who have looked parts of this book, and especially the prefatory material, do not believe that this is a reliable source, for the following reasons:
Weaving the voices of the Thirteen Grandmothers, such powerful and holy women, has been an enormous privilege and has changed forever the way I see life and how I want to be in the world. I am profoundly inspired by their passion and their dedication toward helping this planet become a sacred home for humanity and all of Creation. (from the "Acknowledgements")
It has been a great honor to work closely with the International Council of Thirteen Indigenous Grandmothers in crafting this book. [....] I have done my best to express what I have heard and learned from the Grandmothers, but my ability to act as a bridge or translator to a wider audience is, to a certain extent, hindered by the limits of my own understanding and experience. [....] Finally, though my name appears on the cover of this book, the words of wisdom expressed within it are not mine, and I do not lay claim to them. (from "A Note to the Reader")
My understanding of this is that she considers herself something of an amanuensis to the grandmothers; I cannot discern the exact nature of her relationship to them, but her attitude is adoring and lacking in anything resembling third party detachment. Therefore I do not think this can in any way be considered a reliable or really even a secondary source. Considering the continual reference to it in discussion I find myself in need of ratification or refutation of this assessment. Mangoe ( talk) 17:29, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
There are some RfCs going on at Talk:Creation Museum, and some of the issues under discussion are the appropriateness of Wikipedia referring to it as a "museum" versus as a "tourist attraction". I would like to ask here whether or not there is reliable sourcing for calling it both a "museum" and a "tourist attraction". I think that there is, but some other editors dispute that, saying instead that only "museum" is reliably sourced, and that "tourist attraction" is not reliably sourced (in the Los Angeles Times and USA Today). I have summarized all of the sources with links to each of them at Talk:Creation Museum#tourist attraction sources (above the header for another RfC), and I would appreciate uninvolved feedback as to whether or not my analysis of sources there is correct according to WP:RS. Thanks! -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:30, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a very narrow issue regarding a chart in an article which has been lost sight of among a lot of soapbox (and 1 RfC) on other topics, so hopefully this noticeboard can help.
Hopefully people will stick to this narrow issue. Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 21:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I am wondering if this PBS video which says is made in cooperation with Center for Investigative Reporting is reliable enough to back claims of rape in this article. Kazemita1 ( talk) 22:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a notice, not a question. Just wanted to add it to the archives for future searchers.
A DYK nominator was looking to cite a fact using Starpulse, but the site's "review" ended up being a direct copy of the lede of a Wikipedia article. Add that to the Archive 50 Starpulse thread: the website isn't trustworthy. czar · · 04:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
This source was being used as a genre citation on the 30 Seconds to Mars page, but an editor keeps removing it, insisting that it's not a reliable source. It looks like a reliable source to me since it appears to be a news website with professional writers. Thoughts?
Are book reviews like this one from the pro-socialism website The Point is To Change It! reliable for inclusion in articles on those books (In this case, Dan Brown's recent novel, Inferno? Nightscream ( talk) 14:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Is this webpage a reliable source for the question whether Dr. A P J Abdul Kalam, former president of India, is a follower of the guru Sathya Sai Baba. The article contains a list of followers and Dr. Kalam is included. http://www.international.to/index.php?option=com_content&id=8211:sri-satya-sai-baba-and-dr-a-p-j-abdul-kalam&Itemid=78
The picture of Dr. Kalam and Sathya Sai Baba together is real: it is a well-known undisputed fact that Dr. Kalam has visited Sathya Sai Baba's ashram.
I am not sure whether I am allowed to post here. Because my topic ban on this subject was lifted by the arbcom on probation. Andries ( talk) 17:31, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
We could use some neutral editors at List of Freemasons (A - D) ... that article lists Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and we have given multiple sources for the listing... However, all of them are being challenged. I would like to know if the challenges are valid:
For complete discussion see Talk:List of Freemasons (A - D)#Atatürk?. Blueboar ( talk) 19:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Since free masonry in particular regarding alleged or real membership of famous person is a popular fringe subject it seems justified to expect reputable sources being beyond any doubt. In that context I can understand that these sources are challenged including Jasper Ridley, since at first glance non of them seem to amount to the status of a reliable scholarly source. Though Ridley has a number of written books on historical subject, he is not a history scholar and his publisher doesn't seem to be a reputable academic publisher either. It seems to be a similar situation for the 2nd book and the website is primary source that hardly appropriate here.
An acceptable source here would be a scholarly biography of Atatürk or some reputable scholarly work on freemasonry. Moreover there should be plenty of reputable scholarly sources on Atatürk, if none of them mentions him as freemason, the claims of three given sources would appear to rather dubious fringe having no place WP.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 22:35, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
There is absolutely NO verified affiliation whatsoever. More piling evidence against your claims: Marc D. Baer gives a history of the links between CUP and freemasonry, with explicit mentions to both Macedonia Risorta and Veritas, includes a list of prominent members. No mention is made of Ataturk among the members. Was it an incredible case of forgetfulness? Could be, let's try another source: Marta Petricioli (Professor of History of International Relations at the Faculty of Political Sciences), again a list of prominent members of late-Ottoman masonic lodges is given, again Ataturk doesn't appear in the list. I have evidence from his three main biographers Hanioğlu, Kinross and Mango. I have provided university-press sources. Can you provide us better sources than 'Freemasonry Today' or 'The Complete Idiot's Guide to Freemasonry'? Do you have any scholarly sources whatsoever to back your claims?-- eh bien mon prince ( talk) 11:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
What about this as a source: Harold Courtenay Armstrong (1939). Grey Wolf, Mustafa Kemal: an intimate study of a dictator. Methuen. p. 276. Retrieved 17 June 2013. – "Sarraut was an outstanding figure in the Orient Lodges of Freemasons. He had appealed to Mustafa Kemal as a brother-mason of the craft"? The author seems to be well published. Mojoworker ( talk) 22:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Here is the best I can find. Andrew Mango, Atatürk, John Murray 1999. On page 93: "Mustafa Kemal appears to have joined the masons,29 probably at this stage [in Salonica], although, according to one account, the initiation ceremony took place in Istanbul.30 It would have been a sensible move by an ambitious military conspirator." Reference 29 says: "According to the Grand Lodge of the State of New York, quoted in the New York Times, 29 March 1998, 5." However neither the archive on the NYT site nor a different NYT archive I have access to has such an article. There is an article about Ataturk on page 15, but it doesn't mention masons. Can anyone else find it? Maybe it was redacted (that is rare but can happen). Reference 30 refers to the memoirs of Atatürk’s waiter Cemal Granda: "at a party in İzmir Atatürk described how he had been taken by a friend to a masonic lodge in Beyoğlu (Pera) in Istanbul. He was initiated as a member, but he claimed never to have visited the lodge again or encountered any of the men he had met there (Granda, 294). According to the account, he walked under crossed swords during the initiation. This suggests that he was enrolled as a military member. In the words attributed to him, Atatürk played down the incident, which, he said, he had found boring." Zero talk 06:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
User:Gekritzl insists that NASA engineer Paulkovich, Michael 2012 book No Meek Messiah, Spillix Publishing is a reliable source. He has discussed this on my talk page [21] where two other users, User:Dbachmann and User:Mangoe have agreed with me. The edit it supports in the article John Remsburg simply says " This Remsburg List was improved upon in 2012 with the book No Meek Messiah, augmenting the number of "Silent Writers" to 146." This also looks promotional. The article itself is a mess, eg "It must be mentioned", the choice of others from this 'Remsburg' list which includes some well-known ones but also one self-published author with an article and one with no article who published via Authorhouse. Dougweller ( talk) 11:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Source: Janusz Radziejowski. (1976, English translation 1983) The Communist Party of Western Ukraine: 1919-1929. Toronto: Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies Press at the University of Toronto: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0920862241/ref=dp_proddesc_1?ie=UTF8&n=283155 (The translation is not a revised edition)
Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland
Content:
"In the 1920s, the situation of the Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities was generally worse than in neighboring countries...in Transcarpathian Ukraine the first Ukrainian school system was only in 1918, when this area was incorporated into the new Czechoslovakian state. But already by 1921-1922 89% of Ukrainian children were attending Ukrainian schools"
, pg.7
An editor insists on using Soviet era Communist propaganda that life was better generally in the USSR than in Poland, and education of Ukrainians was specifically better. It distorts the history the Second Polish Republic as part of “the defilement of everything Polish” and reducing education to communist propaganda under communism. (The Soviet Occupation of Poland , Free Europe Pamphlet #3, (1940) edited by Casimir Smogorzewski. http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id15.html) See also Marc Ferro, The Use and Abuse of History, or, How the Past is Taughtafter the Great Fire (2003) Chapter 8, Aspects and variations of Soviet history.
The comment is out of a larger context, but it appears to be used only as introductory or background information by the author, and is simply repeating Communist era propaganda against the Second Polish Republic. It was not the focus of the work. Nothing published under communism can be considered a reliable source unless it is independently confirmed. The fall of communism has allowed modern historians to reexamine the history of the era. Some here don't want to move away from the official Communist version of history.
According to the quote from Faustian, life was better for Ukrainians in the Soviet Union than it was in the Second Polish Republic. Now better is a subjective term, but considering the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor occurred in the Ukrainian S.S.R., it defies belief from anyone other than a communist apologist. So did the Holodomor not occur, or was there a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported? You will note the response, or lack thereof, from the editor presently holding the page hostage to his POV.
Jan Gross also disagrees and note that Poles saw "in the marketplace how these Soviet people ate eggs, shell and all, horseradish, beets, and other produce. Country women rolled with laughter" Jan Gross, Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia (2002), pg. 46 We have other contemporary accounts:
The women," writes an eye-witness, " wore rags wrapped round their feet or felt slippers, instead of shoes: they brought all their family belongings in one battered suitcase, and sometimes even an iron bedstead. Bedding was not known to them and the luxury of fresh linen was never dreamed of in the Soviet Republic, even by dignitaries and important women commissars. The pick of the Soviets sent out for display to this bourgeois country were ignorant of the simplest arrangements of everyday life. Accustomed to being herded together, they did not understand the superfluous habit of enjoying individual lodgings: bathrooms and kitchens they considered as uncanny inventions, and their way of feeding and housekeeping could - by its extreme misery and primitivity - only make one think of the simplicity of requirements attributed to cave-dwellers." The Soviet Occupation of Poland , Free Europe Pamphlet #3, (1940) edited by Casimir Smogorzewski. http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id15.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.44.15.214 ( talk • contribs)
So here is the rest of the quote from Janusz Radziejowski: "In the 1920s, the situation of the Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities was generally worse than in neighboring countries; in terms of employment and wages, Ukrainians and Belarussians were even worse off than they had been in tsarist Russia...”
For this statement to have been true, for Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities to have been worse than in neighboring countries in terms of employment and wages, this would mean that Ukrainians and Belarussians in the Second Polish Republic would have been worse off than those it the Soviet Union. So I have asked Faustian this question: “So did the Holodomor not occur, or was there a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported?”
He has not answered that question. He has given us a link to a discussion about how many died in the Holodomor, from which we may assume that he is now acknowledging that it did occur. Therefore, we must demand that he provide us evidence of a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported. We are waiting...
Lastly, even a respected academic is limited by the information which is available to him. When all that is available to him is official government propaganda, the conclusions which he tdraws from that information are unreliable. This should be obvious to anyone with any common sense, but those who have an agenda refuse to consider common sense.
Garbage in, Garbage out.
Would the official website of an organization be reliable for saying that someone was a member of the organization? Specifically, would http://www.freemason.org - the official website of the Grand Lodge of California (and related sub-pages) be a reliable source for saying that someone is/was a Freemason? Blueboar ( talk) 16:57, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. I might be able to get hold of the DD Form 214 of Armando Torres III, a disappeared US Marine in Mexico. I wanted to know if a scanned form document of the DD 214 is considered a reliable source? I'll simply use it to expand his career section and add details if he had any awards, medals, and all that stuff. ComputerJA ( talk) 17:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
There's a pop music TV program called Pops in Seoul on Arirang World. It was uploaded to YouTube officially by Arirang. Here, on their official YouTube channel: [22]. As I understand it, the TV program is a reliable source, the fact that it is available on YouTube provides easy verifiability, and there's no copyright infringement either.
However, another aditor argued that YouTube was not a reliable source [23] and pointed me to here to ask for your opinion.
The information that needs to be added to the article is Nine Muses members' birth dates. The dates are shown on screen from 5:39 to 6:03: [24]. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 19:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Someone off-wiki brought this to my attention yesterday: there's something odd about FamousLogos.net
Consider this page: LG Corp. It cites famouslogos.net/lg-logo as a source. But FamousLogos doesn't name their authors or describe in any way their editorial process. Are the people who write the articles trusted, reliable writers on the subject of the history of logos? Not sure. Thoughts welcome. — Tom Morris ( talk) 05:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. I working on Lock and Key (Rush song) to be a good article. I was wondering if songfacts.com would be a reliable source for this article. The songfacts source [28] is being used to described used to say that Lee used a 5-string bass for the song, and there also a quote about it by Geddy from the source that is used here. Thanks. EditorE ( talk) 13:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
AlJazeera.com I think was not Al Jazeera's website for a long time, as I understand things, but I don't remember where I read this (and see the WP:RS/N archive). The *.com website I think was registered by a party disagreeing with the TV network, which eventually got its own site, AlJazeera.net. That could make the old *.com website unreliable. However, the *.com website is now officially Al Jazeera's, as I verified through a Whois search today, while the *.net website, which may or may not be theirs through proxy ownership (as I interpret the Whois entry), links to the *.com website via a link for English. I'm not now questioning the reliability of any AlJazeera-named websites not controlled at the time by Al Jazeera, but, until that's closed as reliable, we should be wary of links to old pages via <archive.org> or other archiving services. Nick Levinson ( talk) 15:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC) (Corrected a substantial stupid error of mine and clarified statements: 15:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC))
If a subject is a speaker at an event, and on the event website they have a list of speakers... Can this be used as a citation? I don't see why it couldn't. Cap020570 ( talk) 21:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I would like to use this source in Bank of Lucas, Turner & Co., specifically for the image of the plaque attached to the building; however the site itself doesn't seem reliable. Is it acceptable to use this one part for this article? -- TKK bark ! 20:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
There is an RFC that may be of interest to this group at Talk:Gun_control#RFC. Subject of the RFC is "Is the use of gun restriction legislation or other confiscations by totalitarian governments (Nazi, Communist etc) accurately described as "Gun Control". Are such instances appropriate for inclusion in the Gun Control article. (Details at RFC in article)" Gaijin42 ( talk) 15:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a dispute at Citizenship Clause over whether or not this New York Times article is a reliable source for the following statement about the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: "There are varying interpretations of the original intent of Congress, based on statements made during the congressional debate over the amendment." The NYT piece discusses recent proposals to abolish US citizenship at birth for US-born children of illegal immigrants, and it talks about different opinions raised in Congress during the original debate over what eventually became the 14th Amendment. One IP editor has deleted this reference twice (see here and here), over my objection, stating in an edit summary that "these sources are editorials and, therefore, do not pass the requirements of a reliable source regardless of any other feature". I disagree over whether this is an appropriate interpretation of WP:NEWSORG in this situation, but I would like to hear other people's opinions. — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 01:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
The following has been disputed:
Modern scholars now believe the Papias tradition to be fairly trustworthy and usually interpret the tradition to mean Jesus' disciple Matthew had assembled a collection of Jesus' sayings in Hebrew or Aramaic. Blackwell 2010 p 301-302 Maurice Casey states that it is "genuinely true" that the apostle Matthew compiled the sayings of Jesus in a Hebrew dialect, Casey, 2010 pp 87-88 as the testimony of Papias explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves. Ehrman 2012 pp 98-101 Edwards 2009. pp 2-3
Therefore we need to know if any of the following are reliable sources?
Thanks, Ret.Prof ( talk) 12:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I am adding the two sources below to the list to take care of this problem all at once:
I also have a separate request in process at WP:Notability/Noticeboard#George Howard (Hebraist). Thank you. Ignocrates ( talk) 13:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
A Hebrew text of Matthew was published by the Spanish Jewish polemicist Ibn Shaprut in the 14th century. Although it has usually been considered to be his own translation, there are various signs pointing to the possibility that he was using a preexisting text based on something older than our present Greek text.
Above is the relevant content in the article based on Howard's work. Ignocrates ( talk) 14:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Would someone else who can see the rest of the above sources comment on those as well? Thank you. Ignocrates ( talk) 17:03, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
To follow up on the problem using Aune
Blackwell 2010 p 301-302, in the ( WP:RS, without possible dispute). Aune does not even say that the Papias tradition is reliable, the notice is on the reliability of the INTERPRETATION of what Eusebius says. The very next section (and the previous as well) definitively say that modern scholars have some sort of consensus that Matthew was originally written in Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic. The small section on Eusebius' seemingly contradictory note is there to support but to debunk. --
Anonymous209.6 (
talk) 16:14, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Just as a point of clarification about Blackwell above, here is the complete citation:
Duling is the author of the chapter being cited; David E. Aune is the editor of Blackwell. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
There were no comments on Persian Heritage (magazine) except for the two parties.
Party comments at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive_150#Persian Heritage_(magazine). -- Bejnar ( talk) 00:14, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 145 | ← | Archive 148 | Archive 149 | Archive 150 | Archive 151 | Archive 152 | → | Archive 155 |
A couple of editors have been edit warring over some specific wording in the lead of Alger Hiss. For the most part it appears the content dispute relates to the reliability of and weight to be given to specific sources. The editors are now trying to craft an RFC to address the content dispute in a rational manner. Input from interested parties in this project would be useful. -- Mike Cline ( talk) 15:08, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
At Climatic Research Unit email controversy article, better known as Climategate, we have a dispute regarding the reliability of three proposed sources. There was another posting of CRU emails by "Mr. FOIA" in the middle of March, 2013. Two months later there's no mention of this event in the article mainspace, and one comment by an IP editor on the Talk page. This is the third such posting by Mr. FOIA. The first two are already covered in the article mainspace; and the first one (with its reaction) makes up the bulk of the controversy, and the article. The third posting has been reported by at least three sources I believe to be reliable:
ALl three of these sources take a climate-skeptical view, which might be why I've run into such resistance on the article Talk page. I only intend to use the Delingpole blog from The Daily Telegraph the CFACT website, and the Larry Bell op-ed column in Forbes, and only to establish that "Mr. FOIA" sent a final message in March, along with a password to an online cache containing what were purported to be more CRU e-mails. Maybe a few other details. But I do not plan to use these as sources for the authors' opinions about the content of those emails. Thoughts and comments, please. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow ( talk) 12:28, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd like some guidance to help understand when, if ever, material from WikiLeaks can be used. I just saw a discussion that stated that it could not be used in BLP on the grounds that it amounted to being original research. That surprised me, as just reporting what's in the documents does not to me seem to be research. But if that's so, would the ban also apply beyond BLP?-- Perplexed566 ( talk) 15:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi, is Ancestry.com an acceptable source for a deceased person, bearing in mind WP:BLPPRIMARY? Article is Harry Noon, I have an IP who says he is the subject's son-in-law wanting to use it to verify date of death. Giant Snowman 15:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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15:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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15:26, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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15:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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15:43, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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17:21, 29 May 2013 (UTC)Ancestry.com is not reliable because the information is uploaded by users. Regarding the sidebar about notability, the lack of a reliably sourced death date does not reduce an already-established notability. Binksternet ( talk) 17:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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18:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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01:44, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps just to give all these angry people something else to focus on, here is something I posted a long time ago re Ancestry, public records, and so on. Someone once complimented me on it, so maybe it's worth something. EEng ( talk) 01:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I knew this ( Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites) had to exist somewhere on wiki, and someone just mentioned it in a thread below. Should this website be added to that page since it has been discussed here at RSN so many times? A quick pointer to this would be handy. He iro
Is A Columbine Site reliable for information in the Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold article regarding their biographies and the events of the Columbine Massacre? An editor on that article's talk page stated, " I'm skeptical about the journal entries from a questionable source and copied across a handful of blogs. Is there any evidence these are the real entries instead of fictional writings?". I don't know if it's reliable or not, so I tried addressing this by replacing some of the citations of that source with better ones, or removing them altogether instances where they were not needed. But not all of them.
At present, however, five different pages on that site are still being used to support a number of passages in the article, which are a bit difficult to find replacements for:
Is it reliable? Nightscream ( talk) 19:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
This website appears to be in the spam filter. Are we to assume that eHow can never be used as a citation for an article then or is this a mistake? Thanks. Naapple ( Talk) 20:12, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a discussion happening here regarding material allegedly from a little known publication known as Zoom magazine. An editor is repetitively adding a quotation from this publication and offering only "Zoom, 1979" as the citation. He admittedly does not know what issue, if any, the material originates from. He has been confronted by multiple editors on the basis that this material is not properly sourced but he is obstinately refusing to acknowledge that Wikipedia:Verifiability is not being met. ChakaKong talk 16:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump: thank you for locating the disputed source
Paul B: thank you for your support
Pigsonthewing: thank you for your robust defence
Jason: thank you for your attempts to reach a fair resolution
Chaka: I appreciate that in the first instance you were simply applying your interpretation of Wikipedia's rules on citation. I bear no hard feelings and hope that feeling is mutual
Let's all move on and enjoy the sunshine!
best wishes Bruno MacDonald BrunoMacDonald ( talk) 21:07, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. On the Bob's Burgers (season 4) page, me and User:Archcaster were involved in a dispute. At one point, he reverted an edit of mine, which sourced a start date of the season to the show's writers official blog, back and reported me. Eventually, I managed to explain myself and he seems to be okay with my explanations, so conflict resolved there. I added it back to the page.
However, the reliability of the blog came into question by several other people, who stated the blog is not reliable. Seeing as how the official Twitter has noted the page, which confirms it is an official blog used by the writers, I am stumped. So is the blog reliable?
Here is the official Bob's Burgers Twitter and here is the site in question. Beerest355 Talk 01:44, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
As a newbie to WP conflict, I did not know to come here earlier. It has been suggested Oct 2012 - Apr 2013 that the following sources are deliberately misread by me to push my agenda to include islanders, "civilized and savage" in the US for the 'United States' article, but I do not mean to distract or dissemble, I sincerely restate my understanding. Here it is: “The US is a federal republic of 50 states, DC and five organized territories.” [note] The United Nations monitors Guam, American Samoa and US Virgin Islands as non-self governing territories of former colonial peoples, 18 Dec 2012. Viewed June 3, 2013.
The challenge of my interpretation of sources begins with the Congressional statute defining the term “state” in the law to include DC, Guam, US Virgin Islands, Northern Marianas and Puerto Rico. I am said to misread the definition to include territories in the official US, but it really means to exclude them from the US? The unrelenting critique without exception ends with the quote from Bartholomew Sparrow, who says, "The US now includes" territories; but he really means the US excludes them, today?
Primary sources. By the Montvideo Convention, Articles 1 and 2, the US is a "sole person" in its federal republic as represented in Congress: 50 states, DC and 5 territories of citizens. There are three other "States in free association". By Congressional statute, " Aliens and nationality", “Definitions. 29. American Samoa (AS) is an "outlying possession". 36. State includes [DC], Puerto Rico, Guam, US Virgin Islands, and Northern Mariana Islands (MP). [p.22-23]. This definition is reiterated throughout US Code.
Secondary USG. US Foreign Affairs Manual says the term ‘US’ geographically includes four territories (PR, GM, VI, MP), and 'outlying possession' (AS) [p.18,22]. Insular Affairs, Application of the US Constitution reports all with self-government. [p.8] “Native-born Americans” are citizens (PR, GM, MP, VI) or nationals and citizens (AS). Territory residents enjoy rights of citizenship, due process and equal protections. [p.33, 35] The Executive interprets 'US', to include five territories." Native-born American" include those born in five US territories. Welcome, a guide for immigrants citizenship, p.7, “The US now consists of 50 states, the District, [five] territories."
Scholarly sources. Lawson and Sloane in the Boston College Law Review, “Regardless of how Puerto Rico looked in 1901 when The Insular Cases were decided or in 1922, today, Puerto Rico seems to be the paradigm of an incorporated territory as modern jurisprudence understands that legal term of art.” [p.1175] Political scientist Bartholomew Sparrow summarizes, the US has always had territories… “At present, the US includes the Caribbean and Pacific territories, [DC] and of course the fifty states.” ( Levinson and Sparrow, 2005, p.232).
This is a sampling, there are over 20 others. Any review or critique of these sources by WP criteria would be sincerely appreciated. I am repeatedly asked why I would bring up this subject at all. My sole purpose is to contribute knowledge to the article from reliable sources, as I believe the US to be competent to define its international geographic extent. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
In this as in most things you will find Golbez infinitely more reasonable than others in opposition to islanders being admitted to WP.USA. There is no scholar to say, "Modern US territories are not a part of the US politically". The Foreign Affairs Manual does not, as others have speculated, --- the federal republic is treated as a "sole individual" in the eyes of International law according to the Montevideo Convention referenced -- not states (50), territories (5) and municipalities (DC). There are notable distinctions between states and not-states; DC and territories are not states but both are still a part of the federal republic by citizenship and territory Members of Congress. If DC is in the first sentence, the territories should be. Consider presidential vote, federal courts and House membership.
A constitutional amendment was passed for DC to vote three electoral votes, regardless of its population, whereas states have electoral votes apportioned by population. Territories have Article III constitutional federal courts as do states, they are superior to DC's Article I congressional courts. Both DC and territories have Members of Congress with privilege of floor debate, but not voting in House meeting as H. of R. -- just as all previous politically incorporated continental territories.
In what way can a territory be "unincorporated" since the Supreme Court invented the term without Congress? By judicial holding that a territory is not subject to the Uniformity Clause required of states, for the purposes of discriminatory tax regimes favoring substantially poorer territories over states. [see Legal scholar Krishanti Vignarajah in the U. of Chicago Law Review p.789-790.] The political branch Congress, determines citizenship, and that citizenship "incorporates" the territories politically. But territories (unlike their citizens protected by due process) are not equal to states in tax regimes, or proportionate presidential electors, or proportionate representation in the House. Sources report the 5 territories are included in the US, the political scientist as referenced can be safely assumed to be speaking of things political as well as geographic.
Generally, Wikipedia cannot be used as a source on Wikipedia. The link to wikipedia Unincorporated territories of the United States leads off with an error asserting that all judicially ‘unincorporated’ territories are unorganized; there are nine unorganized territories, --- none are the five under discussion with full US citizenship, fundamental constitutional rights, local three-branch self government, Article III courts, and territorial Member of Congress --- just as every previously politically incorporated territory has enjoyed for 220 years of US constitutional practice.
The lead should report 50 states or 50 stats, DC and 5 territories within the federal republic. But regardless, I do like that suggestion to document the discrepancies between states versus the territories and DC. It could lead to a section of the statehood movements in DC and Puerto Rico, which are especially important in contemporary US. Puerto Rico territorial legislature has petitioned Congress for statehood for the first time -- it is larger than the smallest 20 states. The statehood movement in DC has resulted in all license plates reading, "No taxation without representation." -- meaning in the Senate, as DC has more population than Wyoming. TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 05:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC) 09:11, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
GRuban was kind enough to repeat Golbez language, and Golbez was kind enough to correct him based on our agreed discussion since October 2012. I would like another opinion, even if the conclusion is the same as Golbez again, perhaps without wikipedia sourcing wikipedia.
Is there a second opinion other than Golbez, again? TheVirginiaHistorian ( talk) 08:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC) 08:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Another editor and I are having a disagreement that I think could benefit from some help from this noticeboard. The issue centers on determining the official name of a TV-game-console combo set produced by the Sharp Corporation. The other editor has strenuously argued that the official name of the TV is "SF1" and his evidence for this consists of the box that the TV came shipped in, the TV set itself, and possibly promotional advertisements and fliers. He hasn't offered any links to the images he's referring to, but a Google image search gives you a rough idea. From images of the TV set itself (e.g. 1) as well as from a number of third-party RSes (considered RS by WP:VG/RS anyway) (e.g. 2, 3, 4)) I've drawn a different conclusion regarding the official name of the TV. I think it's called the "Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1". The other editor acknowledges that my version does appear on the TV set and in the third party sources, but he has determined that the first half of the name "Super Famicom Naizou TV" is a descriptor term and not part of the official name of the TV. His evidence for this consists of the same TV box, same TV set, and the same promotional advertisements and fliers. I've been making the point that box art and promotional advertisements' use of a term is not the same thing as their making a claim regarding the "official" status of the term, but the other editor disagrees. He believes that the box art is the highest form of source for the official name and that the box makes the claim that other terms (e.g. those used by the third-party reliable sources) are incorrect. Who's right here?
In addition, could you please help us settle once and for all whether or not box art, TV sets, and promotional materials are considered self-published at Wikipedia or not? Because this article concerns the product of the company I believe that any actual claims of SPSes may properly be used in the article, but the other editor is adamant that irrespective of anything else, they are definitely not self-published. So are they self-published or are they third-party or are they some different kind of source completely? Could you provide us with a brief explanation of what would be an SPS in this context because one of us is clearly quite confused.
This issue has been going on for days and we're going through an RfC now here in case anyone is interested in participating. But I've linked this RSN thread from the RfC so if you prefer you can limit your response to just the two RS-related questions: (1) May shipping box art be understood to be making a claim regarding the official name of a product? and (2) Are box art, TV sets, and promotional materials SPSes or not?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give us. - Thibbs ( talk) 21:08, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
As part of its translation algorithm, Google Translate analyzes patterns in documents that have already been translated by human translators, so basically its translation to "C1 NES TV" is most likely due to the fact that this is the term used by the majority of sources it checks. That seems to agree with the fact that "C1 NES TV" is the only term used by our third-party RSes. Omitting this term from the article due to speculation that it is not "official" misses the point of WP:UCN entirely. Even if it isn't official, there's no denying that it's the common name used by the majority of English-language sources and that it should thus appear in the article. - Thibbs ( talk) 15:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Somewhere in the maze of pages about WP:N and WP:RS I thought I saw something about travel magazines and travel guides not being reliable sources. I can't find it now, been looking hard. A particular notability guideline for hotels and resorts and WP:TRAVEL/WP:TOURISM pages doesn't yet exist. I'm thinking, if the "no travel mags/guides" restriction is correct - and I can see the issue with regular articles - it's not really "fair" to hotel and resort articles. If some fact about them is in such guides that's not in other sources, or if a Conde Nast or Travel Magazine or the New York Times travel magazine or other "calibre" travel publication has done a feature on them - not just a mention or a directory listing - that would seem to me to be in the "notable" ballpark, depending on the nature of the content cited and what's in the cite. Just being listed in travel guides of course isn't enough in any way. According to what's on the lede of List of hotels, any four or five star, anything of architectural or other special mention or that's a landmark or notable skyscraper, or has been the site of notable events (from world conferences or scenes of war - the Independence Hotel in Sihanoukville, Cambodia is both - to David Carradine hanging himself in what is now the Swissôtel on Wireless Road in Bangkok) are notable enough; that's not a formal guideline that I can find. I've queried at WP:WikiProject Hotels but as yet no response. Anyone here know the guideline passage I'm referring to? I'm also scouting around WP:HOTELS for examples of GA for hotels and anything else relevant to the making of good hotel/resort articles. Many WP:WikiProject Ski resort articles seem to have a lot of COI/PEACOCK issues and....dicey sources maybe. Skookum1 ( talk) 11:05, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a video recording of a speech that is of great public interest and is quoted in 2013 Woolwich attack. This has been done by incorporating a transcript of same. There are perhaps one or two full-length transcripts from what could be classified as reliable sources (actually I'm not very sure about the second one); there is another one, one we all agree to be accurate, sourced to a blog. There is agreement that, other than the blog, the transcripts quoting the full speech are not 100% accurate.
There are currently disagreements as to which version of transcript should be used in the article. The " reliability" of the blog has been challenged, and this has not been robustly defended. I and the challenger believe it's more important to cite a "wrong" transcript from The Telegraph, a RS, and attribute the content correctly, which would allow for easy verification and seems to be the standard approach. There is the feeling among some editors unhappy with the transcription errors that we should go directly to the primary source (the video), citing WP:IAR, and eliminate the error (which has now been done).
Of course, much of the problem could be circumvented if we merely excerpted the speech like most news articles have done, as I pushed for, but quite a few editors strongly insist that the speech must be in full. There is currently a full-scale tag-team edit war at the article. But instead of seizing ANI, I'm requesting intervention from anyone with experience of how a similar situation has been resolved in the past. Thanks, -- Ohc ¡digame!¿que pasa? 15:20, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
When it comes to quotations, my rule of thumb is this: When in doubt, cite the original primary source (or as close to the original as you can get). If the choice is a potentially flawed transcript of what someone said, or a video/audio recording of the person actually saying it... the second is a better, more reliable source.
That said, Ohconfuscius makes a valid point about the potential for doctored videos/audio files. The reliability of the "publisher" is just as important as the reliability of the "author". In the case of on line video/audio files, the "publisher" is the person who uploaded the video/audio to the file-sharing web site. I will leave it to those who know the specific video in question to say whether the publisher is reliable in this specific case.
Blueboar (
talk) 12:49, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
You should not report statements made by reliable sources that you know to be wrong. You know them to be wrong if you have played the video as hosted by another reliable source and there is no doubt what the person in the video said and it is different from the transcript published by a reliable source. This is nothing to do with interpretation. You are not interpreting if an incorrect transcript says "one horse" but you clearly hear the speaker in the video say "three dogs". If there is no reliable source publishing a correct transcript, refrain from quoting from an incorrect transcript. Instead put a link to the video so that readers can go there and play the video for themselves. You may still quote or paraphrase portions of transcripts published by reliable sources that are not blatantly, obviously wrong. Just ask yourself this: In the bygone era when "encyclopedia editor" was a profession and the people doing this job were getting paid, would an encyclopedia editor knowingly have published false information even if it came from a "reliable source"? 89.204.135.241 ( talk) 14:31, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
A Wikipedia editor wants the article on PRISM (surveillance program) to include the material highlighted in the box below, which cites a posting at www.ZeroHedge.com from yesterday, in which the poster is writing under the apparent pseudonym "George Washington":
On June 8, 2013 questioned regarding PRISM, highly placed NSA intelligence official , turned whistleblower William Binney confirmed and clarified U.S Senators Mark Udall and Ron Wyden 2011 allegation[40] by stating "the government is using a secret interpretation of Section 215 of the Patriot Act which allows the government to obtain any data in any third party, like any service provider… any third party… any commercial company – like a telecom or internet service provider, libraries, medical companies – holding data about anyone, any U.S. citizen or anyone else. In other words, the government was using the antiquated, bogus legal argument that it was not acting color of law using governmental powers, and that it was private companies just doing their thing (which the government happened to order all of the private companies to collect and fork over)".[41]
The ZeroHedge.com contributor wrote in the post, "Last December, top NSA whistleblower William Binney – a 32-year NSA veteran with the title of senior technical director, who headed the agency’s global digital data gathering program (featured in a New York Times documentary, and the source for much of what we know about NSA spying) – said that the government is using a secret interpretation of Section 215 of the Patriot Act which allows the government to obtain: 'Any data in any third party, like any commercial data that’s held about U.S. citizens ....' I called Binney to find out what he meant." From there, the post describes the interview.
I am not familiar with ZeroHedge.com. Does ZeroHedge.com follow the kinds of editorial content practices that would distinguish a widely respected media outlet like, say, the Washington Post from a self-published blog or online discussion board? Is it a reliable source for the material the Wikipedia editor wants to include? Dezastru ( talk) 01:21, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Are sports governing bodies considered reliable sources in regard to the titles of articles on their players? Powers T 20:05, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
A couple of months ago I posted a couple of message templates looking for an expert on "non-violence" to advise on two citations in an article on Pornography in the United States (the Anti-pornography movement section). I also started two discussion threads here and here.
Thinking about it since, the matter is probably more of a reliable sources issue concerning:
Content (refs 45 and 46)
Anti-pornography movement
(a) The so-called "Sex Wars" of the late 1970s[43] challenged the traditional understanding of the gender role. Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon became well-known often-cited anti-pornography authors. Many debates have attended their political intervention into the law by way of their advocacy of anti-pornography ordinances in several midwestern cities. Other notable American anti-pornography activists to belong to this camp are Robin Morgan and Susan Griffin. Ordinary libertarians, who separate sex and violence, take MacKinnon and Dworkin to task for their refusal to leave sexual expression alone.[44] This was done particularly by Gillian Rodgerson and Elizabeth Wilson in Pornography and Feminism: The Case Against Censorship: "Yet this theoretical cocktail of biologism and behaviorism is lethal. To see men as naturally programmed for violence is to endorse the most conservative views on human nature, and to see it as unchanging and unchangeable". Rodgerson and Wilson argue that pornography plays a relatively minor role in the wider regime of sexist practices pervading women's lives.[45]Pornography in the United States.
(b) Another matter, which frequently circulates in American anti-pornography movement is a close bond of pornography with rape. According to a 2006 paper, Porn Up, Rape Down, by Northwestern University Law Professor Anthony D’amato, "the incidence of rape in the United States has declined 85 per cent in the past 25 years while access to pornography has become freely available to teenagers and adults".Recognizing that the Nixon and Reagan Commissions tried to show that exposure to pornographic materials produced social violence, D'amato concludes that "the reverse may be true: that pornography has reduced social violence". D'amato suggests there are two predominant reasons why an increase in the availability of pornography has led to a reduction in rape. First, using pornographic material provides an easy avenue for the sexually desirous to "get it out of their system". Second, D'amato points to the so-called "Victorian effect". It dates back to the British Victorian era where people covered up their bodies with an immense amount of clothing, generating a greater mystery as to what they looked like naked. D'amato suggests that the free availability of pornography since the 1970s, and the recent bombardment of internet pornography, has de-mystified sex, thus satisfying the sexually curious.[46]
Both quotes make up the entirety of the Anti-pornography movement section of the article on Pornography in the United States. (Although to me it reads like a "Criticism of the anti-pornography movement".)
I would be grateful if other editors would take a look. -- The Vintage Feminist ( talk) 08:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I would like to invite broader discussion on whether it's appropriate to use primary sources from the company to report on revenue [11] and employee counts [12] for the infobox (see discussion here). A longtime contributor to the article feels he does not trust the sources, since the organization is private and there is no third-party to validate the accuracy of their numbers. I felt it was common (even preferred) for us to use up-to-date primary sources for infobox data. There appears to be enough different opinions on the Talk page to warrant opening it up for further discussion. I won't raise a fuss either way - just figured I would advertise for a few more opinions so we could move on to other more important issues with the article's general quality and poor use of sources. CorporateM ( Talk) 21:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I found the figures below at http://www.zoominfo.com/c/Publishers-Clearing-House/69583362.
$50 mil. - $100 mil.in Revenue 250 - 500 Employees
While not saying this is an authoritative source, the large discrepancy in revenue ($50 - $100 million versus the proposed $500 million), and broad range in number of employees would indicate that additional sources/verification should be obtained. Bilbobag ( talk) 16:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me that Persian Heritage (magazine) is reasonably reliable on non-controversial aspects of Persian history. The magazine's recent issues can be viewed at their website. Opinions? See also Talk:Ghaznavids#Flag. -- Bejnar ( talk) 08:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I would like to know if this source is reliable, because I would like to add "hard rock" on this Wikipedia page, to show the song is a hard rock song, but according to another user I talked with, it's not as reliable as it seems. Here's the content which talks about the song :
Like any great rock band Led Zeppelin was firmly rooted in the blues. “Nobody’s Fault But Mine” is a traditional gospel song made famous in 1927 by blues legend Blind Willie Johnson. This is a relentless rocker built behind a delta blues-based riff. “Nobody’s Fault But Mine” features Robert Plant playing a bluesy harmonica solo and Jimmy Page’s famous slide guitar intro. This is a song full of swagger and it shows Zeppelin’s ability to turn a traditional gospel/blues song into an all out blues jam mixed with a good dose of hard rock.
86.214.54.113 ( talk) 20:58, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
In fact it's a hard rock song which borrows blues elements from the original song. 86.214.54.113 ( talk) 21:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Please take a look at Allegations of CIA drug trafficking and specifically this diff: [13]. The editor has introduced three unreliable sources into the article and I am at 3RR. The sources are:
Thanks, GabrielF ( talk) 16:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
A request was made to the WikiProject Ireland to reassess the Brickens article but I am rather wary to give advise until I determine some issues. The article uses various maps as citations even though they don't actually state the facts alluded to. Can these be acceptable as reliable sources? I personally doubt it. I also find it very odd to see embedded links to external images, especially as their copyright status is unknown, which I though was also discouraged. Any comments and advise happily taken. ww2censor ( talk) 16:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Diff: [16] Rahul Jain ( talk) 03:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I just wanted to make a brief note, for future reference, of a message thread in the Jimbo Wales talk page in which he states that this encyclopedia deliberately inserts incorrect information to ensnare plagiarists. That's pretty shocking. That encyclopedia should not be used as a source, and if it is used that needs to stop. See [17]. This may not be new, but I did a search and found no record of it. Coretheapple ( talk) 21:31, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I think we may have some concrete examples of such copies without factual verification in this area, not necessarily by this encyc. Articles in question insofar are Vera Renczi and Bela Kiss. 86.121.18.17 ( talk) 07:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Are his books such as A Plague of Murder authoritative? I have some doubts given the complete lack of sources/footnotes etc. in that book. The same info is basically found in a web of "crime libraries" and other dubious encyclopedias, with more or less detail. 86.121.18.17 ( talk) 07:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi! From the talk page of Talk:PRISM_(surveillance_program)#Did_the_NSA_stop_Najibullah_Zazi.3F a Wikipedia user argued that an Associated Press article is not a reliable source because it does not show that the journalist did due diligence in doing research.
The article in question is this:
The Wikipedian argues that because the article lacks"93 wn app 154 "quotes by legal experts, law enforcement experts, prosecutors, or defense attorneys" the journalists did not do their due diligence and this article should not be considered a reliable source for the statement that "The FBI suspected that Zazi was a terrorist so they could have gotten a warrant and there was no need to use PRISM." Also he argued that it does not give an opportunity for the US government to respond to the claims made. WhisperToMe ( talk) 21:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I am having a problem with an editor at the Woman article where an editor refuses to use any of three online dictionaries for information on the origin of the word "woman" and instead insists on using his own dictionary which is not online and, according to the editor, has a different origin than the online dictionaries. Could I get some help? The discussion is on the talk page. Thanks. Gandydancer ( talk) 11:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Please see this site. I removed the source because it is from a self-made website without even basic information that reliable websites have. Also, the information it is used to source can be easily found elsewhere, and it appears the website is added wherever possible to direct more people to this page. I would like an outside opinion, as I am a bit suspicious of whether this site should be even on Wikipedia to begin with. Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 01:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
There is also this quote on the bottom of the page, which is a bit odd if it is supposed to be considered reliable: "Notice: The materials on this site represent the opinions of Dr. Edward Peters and do not necessarily reflect the views of others with whom he might be associated. Materials offered here are for informational and educational purposes only and are not intended as civil or canonical advice." Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 01:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I am bringing this back for discussion - I feel that the player profiles section of Transfermarkt (that is all we are discussing!) is not reliable, as the content is user-generated and there does not look to be any kind of moderation or checking. If I recall correctly, the website was used by notorious vandal Zombie433 ( talk · contribs) to introduce false statistics into Wikipedia. I feel that there are plenty of other reliable football database websites so there is no need to use Transfermarkt. Thoughts welcome, let's try and get some solid consensus this time! Giant Snowman 14:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
So are we agreed that this is not a RS? Giant Snowman 10:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The Local Coordination Committees of Syria (LCC) and Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) are two news outlets clearly affiliated to the Syrian opposition against the Assad regime. They publish daily death tolls which are usually unconfirmed by independent sources and which have been used, inter alia, in the Timeline of the Syrian civil war on a very regular basis. I have raised the issue of their use in two different venues ( Neutrality board and AfD for Timeline of the Syrian civil war (from May 2013)), but I feel we need a solution which covers WP.EN in its entirety. So, do you feel the LCC and SOHR are reliable sources which can be cited in WP or do you think these two groups are fundamentally unreliable sources and material relying on them should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion? Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 17:08, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is a non-partisan, neutral organisation. It routinely criticises both the government and the opposition for human rights violations. Show how it is biased?! Jafar Saeed ( talk) 14:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Schaefer, Carol (2006). Grandmothers counsel the world: women elders offer their vision for our planet. Boston: Trumpeter/ Shambhala Publications. ISBN 9781590302934.
This book is being used as a source for International Council of 13 Indigenous Grandmothers and biographies of the members (see at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/the remaining members of the council of grandmothers). I and various others who have looked parts of this book, and especially the prefatory material, do not believe that this is a reliable source, for the following reasons:
Weaving the voices of the Thirteen Grandmothers, such powerful and holy women, has been an enormous privilege and has changed forever the way I see life and how I want to be in the world. I am profoundly inspired by their passion and their dedication toward helping this planet become a sacred home for humanity and all of Creation. (from the "Acknowledgements")
It has been a great honor to work closely with the International Council of Thirteen Indigenous Grandmothers in crafting this book. [....] I have done my best to express what I have heard and learned from the Grandmothers, but my ability to act as a bridge or translator to a wider audience is, to a certain extent, hindered by the limits of my own understanding and experience. [....] Finally, though my name appears on the cover of this book, the words of wisdom expressed within it are not mine, and I do not lay claim to them. (from "A Note to the Reader")
My understanding of this is that she considers herself something of an amanuensis to the grandmothers; I cannot discern the exact nature of her relationship to them, but her attitude is adoring and lacking in anything resembling third party detachment. Therefore I do not think this can in any way be considered a reliable or really even a secondary source. Considering the continual reference to it in discussion I find myself in need of ratification or refutation of this assessment. Mangoe ( talk) 17:29, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
There are some RfCs going on at Talk:Creation Museum, and some of the issues under discussion are the appropriateness of Wikipedia referring to it as a "museum" versus as a "tourist attraction". I would like to ask here whether or not there is reliable sourcing for calling it both a "museum" and a "tourist attraction". I think that there is, but some other editors dispute that, saying instead that only "museum" is reliably sourced, and that "tourist attraction" is not reliably sourced (in the Los Angeles Times and USA Today). I have summarized all of the sources with links to each of them at Talk:Creation Museum#tourist attraction sources (above the header for another RfC), and I would appreciate uninvolved feedback as to whether or not my analysis of sources there is correct according to WP:RS. Thanks! -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:30, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a very narrow issue regarding a chart in an article which has been lost sight of among a lot of soapbox (and 1 RfC) on other topics, so hopefully this noticeboard can help.
Hopefully people will stick to this narrow issue. Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 21:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I am wondering if this PBS video which says is made in cooperation with Center for Investigative Reporting is reliable enough to back claims of rape in this article. Kazemita1 ( talk) 22:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a notice, not a question. Just wanted to add it to the archives for future searchers.
A DYK nominator was looking to cite a fact using Starpulse, but the site's "review" ended up being a direct copy of the lede of a Wikipedia article. Add that to the Archive 50 Starpulse thread: the website isn't trustworthy. czar · · 04:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
This source was being used as a genre citation on the 30 Seconds to Mars page, but an editor keeps removing it, insisting that it's not a reliable source. It looks like a reliable source to me since it appears to be a news website with professional writers. Thoughts?
Are book reviews like this one from the pro-socialism website The Point is To Change It! reliable for inclusion in articles on those books (In this case, Dan Brown's recent novel, Inferno? Nightscream ( talk) 14:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Is this webpage a reliable source for the question whether Dr. A P J Abdul Kalam, former president of India, is a follower of the guru Sathya Sai Baba. The article contains a list of followers and Dr. Kalam is included. http://www.international.to/index.php?option=com_content&id=8211:sri-satya-sai-baba-and-dr-a-p-j-abdul-kalam&Itemid=78
The picture of Dr. Kalam and Sathya Sai Baba together is real: it is a well-known undisputed fact that Dr. Kalam has visited Sathya Sai Baba's ashram.
I am not sure whether I am allowed to post here. Because my topic ban on this subject was lifted by the arbcom on probation. Andries ( talk) 17:31, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
We could use some neutral editors at List of Freemasons (A - D) ... that article lists Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and we have given multiple sources for the listing... However, all of them are being challenged. I would like to know if the challenges are valid:
For complete discussion see Talk:List of Freemasons (A - D)#Atatürk?. Blueboar ( talk) 19:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Since free masonry in particular regarding alleged or real membership of famous person is a popular fringe subject it seems justified to expect reputable sources being beyond any doubt. In that context I can understand that these sources are challenged including Jasper Ridley, since at first glance non of them seem to amount to the status of a reliable scholarly source. Though Ridley has a number of written books on historical subject, he is not a history scholar and his publisher doesn't seem to be a reputable academic publisher either. It seems to be a similar situation for the 2nd book and the website is primary source that hardly appropriate here.
An acceptable source here would be a scholarly biography of Atatürk or some reputable scholarly work on freemasonry. Moreover there should be plenty of reputable scholarly sources on Atatürk, if none of them mentions him as freemason, the claims of three given sources would appear to rather dubious fringe having no place WP.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 22:35, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
There is absolutely NO verified affiliation whatsoever. More piling evidence against your claims: Marc D. Baer gives a history of the links between CUP and freemasonry, with explicit mentions to both Macedonia Risorta and Veritas, includes a list of prominent members. No mention is made of Ataturk among the members. Was it an incredible case of forgetfulness? Could be, let's try another source: Marta Petricioli (Professor of History of International Relations at the Faculty of Political Sciences), again a list of prominent members of late-Ottoman masonic lodges is given, again Ataturk doesn't appear in the list. I have evidence from his three main biographers Hanioğlu, Kinross and Mango. I have provided university-press sources. Can you provide us better sources than 'Freemasonry Today' or 'The Complete Idiot's Guide to Freemasonry'? Do you have any scholarly sources whatsoever to back your claims?-- eh bien mon prince ( talk) 11:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
What about this as a source: Harold Courtenay Armstrong (1939). Grey Wolf, Mustafa Kemal: an intimate study of a dictator. Methuen. p. 276. Retrieved 17 June 2013. – "Sarraut was an outstanding figure in the Orient Lodges of Freemasons. He had appealed to Mustafa Kemal as a brother-mason of the craft"? The author seems to be well published. Mojoworker ( talk) 22:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Here is the best I can find. Andrew Mango, Atatürk, John Murray 1999. On page 93: "Mustafa Kemal appears to have joined the masons,29 probably at this stage [in Salonica], although, according to one account, the initiation ceremony took place in Istanbul.30 It would have been a sensible move by an ambitious military conspirator." Reference 29 says: "According to the Grand Lodge of the State of New York, quoted in the New York Times, 29 March 1998, 5." However neither the archive on the NYT site nor a different NYT archive I have access to has such an article. There is an article about Ataturk on page 15, but it doesn't mention masons. Can anyone else find it? Maybe it was redacted (that is rare but can happen). Reference 30 refers to the memoirs of Atatürk’s waiter Cemal Granda: "at a party in İzmir Atatürk described how he had been taken by a friend to a masonic lodge in Beyoğlu (Pera) in Istanbul. He was initiated as a member, but he claimed never to have visited the lodge again or encountered any of the men he had met there (Granda, 294). According to the account, he walked under crossed swords during the initiation. This suggests that he was enrolled as a military member. In the words attributed to him, Atatürk played down the incident, which, he said, he had found boring." Zero talk 06:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
User:Gekritzl insists that NASA engineer Paulkovich, Michael 2012 book No Meek Messiah, Spillix Publishing is a reliable source. He has discussed this on my talk page [21] where two other users, User:Dbachmann and User:Mangoe have agreed with me. The edit it supports in the article John Remsburg simply says " This Remsburg List was improved upon in 2012 with the book No Meek Messiah, augmenting the number of "Silent Writers" to 146." This also looks promotional. The article itself is a mess, eg "It must be mentioned", the choice of others from this 'Remsburg' list which includes some well-known ones but also one self-published author with an article and one with no article who published via Authorhouse. Dougweller ( talk) 11:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Source: Janusz Radziejowski. (1976, English translation 1983) The Communist Party of Western Ukraine: 1919-1929. Toronto: Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies Press at the University of Toronto: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0920862241/ref=dp_proddesc_1?ie=UTF8&n=283155 (The translation is not a revised edition)
Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland
Content:
"In the 1920s, the situation of the Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities was generally worse than in neighboring countries...in Transcarpathian Ukraine the first Ukrainian school system was only in 1918, when this area was incorporated into the new Czechoslovakian state. But already by 1921-1922 89% of Ukrainian children were attending Ukrainian schools"
, pg.7
An editor insists on using Soviet era Communist propaganda that life was better generally in the USSR than in Poland, and education of Ukrainians was specifically better. It distorts the history the Second Polish Republic as part of “the defilement of everything Polish” and reducing education to communist propaganda under communism. (The Soviet Occupation of Poland , Free Europe Pamphlet #3, (1940) edited by Casimir Smogorzewski. http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id15.html) See also Marc Ferro, The Use and Abuse of History, or, How the Past is Taughtafter the Great Fire (2003) Chapter 8, Aspects and variations of Soviet history.
The comment is out of a larger context, but it appears to be used only as introductory or background information by the author, and is simply repeating Communist era propaganda against the Second Polish Republic. It was not the focus of the work. Nothing published under communism can be considered a reliable source unless it is independently confirmed. The fall of communism has allowed modern historians to reexamine the history of the era. Some here don't want to move away from the official Communist version of history.
According to the quote from Faustian, life was better for Ukrainians in the Soviet Union than it was in the Second Polish Republic. Now better is a subjective term, but considering the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor occurred in the Ukrainian S.S.R., it defies belief from anyone other than a communist apologist. So did the Holodomor not occur, or was there a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported? You will note the response, or lack thereof, from the editor presently holding the page hostage to his POV.
Jan Gross also disagrees and note that Poles saw "in the marketplace how these Soviet people ate eggs, shell and all, horseradish, beets, and other produce. Country women rolled with laughter" Jan Gross, Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia (2002), pg. 46 We have other contemporary accounts:
The women," writes an eye-witness, " wore rags wrapped round their feet or felt slippers, instead of shoes: they brought all their family belongings in one battered suitcase, and sometimes even an iron bedstead. Bedding was not known to them and the luxury of fresh linen was never dreamed of in the Soviet Republic, even by dignitaries and important women commissars. The pick of the Soviets sent out for display to this bourgeois country were ignorant of the simplest arrangements of everyday life. Accustomed to being herded together, they did not understand the superfluous habit of enjoying individual lodgings: bathrooms and kitchens they considered as uncanny inventions, and their way of feeding and housekeeping could - by its extreme misery and primitivity - only make one think of the simplicity of requirements attributed to cave-dwellers." The Soviet Occupation of Poland , Free Europe Pamphlet #3, (1940) edited by Casimir Smogorzewski. http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id15.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.44.15.214 ( talk • contribs)
So here is the rest of the quote from Janusz Radziejowski: "In the 1920s, the situation of the Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities was generally worse than in neighboring countries; in terms of employment and wages, Ukrainians and Belarussians were even worse off than they had been in tsarist Russia...”
For this statement to have been true, for Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities to have been worse than in neighboring countries in terms of employment and wages, this would mean that Ukrainians and Belarussians in the Second Polish Republic would have been worse off than those it the Soviet Union. So I have asked Faustian this question: “So did the Holodomor not occur, or was there a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported?”
He has not answered that question. He has given us a link to a discussion about how many died in the Holodomor, from which we may assume that he is now acknowledging that it did occur. Therefore, we must demand that he provide us evidence of a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported. We are waiting...
Lastly, even a respected academic is limited by the information which is available to him. When all that is available to him is official government propaganda, the conclusions which he tdraws from that information are unreliable. This should be obvious to anyone with any common sense, but those who have an agenda refuse to consider common sense.
Garbage in, Garbage out.
Would the official website of an organization be reliable for saying that someone was a member of the organization? Specifically, would http://www.freemason.org - the official website of the Grand Lodge of California (and related sub-pages) be a reliable source for saying that someone is/was a Freemason? Blueboar ( talk) 16:57, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. I might be able to get hold of the DD Form 214 of Armando Torres III, a disappeared US Marine in Mexico. I wanted to know if a scanned form document of the DD 214 is considered a reliable source? I'll simply use it to expand his career section and add details if he had any awards, medals, and all that stuff. ComputerJA ( talk) 17:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
There's a pop music TV program called Pops in Seoul on Arirang World. It was uploaded to YouTube officially by Arirang. Here, on their official YouTube channel: [22]. As I understand it, the TV program is a reliable source, the fact that it is available on YouTube provides easy verifiability, and there's no copyright infringement either.
However, another aditor argued that YouTube was not a reliable source [23] and pointed me to here to ask for your opinion.
The information that needs to be added to the article is Nine Muses members' birth dates. The dates are shown on screen from 5:39 to 6:03: [24]. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 19:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Someone off-wiki brought this to my attention yesterday: there's something odd about FamousLogos.net
Consider this page: LG Corp. It cites famouslogos.net/lg-logo as a source. But FamousLogos doesn't name their authors or describe in any way their editorial process. Are the people who write the articles trusted, reliable writers on the subject of the history of logos? Not sure. Thoughts welcome. — Tom Morris ( talk) 05:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. I working on Lock and Key (Rush song) to be a good article. I was wondering if songfacts.com would be a reliable source for this article. The songfacts source [28] is being used to described used to say that Lee used a 5-string bass for the song, and there also a quote about it by Geddy from the source that is used here. Thanks. EditorE ( talk) 13:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
AlJazeera.com I think was not Al Jazeera's website for a long time, as I understand things, but I don't remember where I read this (and see the WP:RS/N archive). The *.com website I think was registered by a party disagreeing with the TV network, which eventually got its own site, AlJazeera.net. That could make the old *.com website unreliable. However, the *.com website is now officially Al Jazeera's, as I verified through a Whois search today, while the *.net website, which may or may not be theirs through proxy ownership (as I interpret the Whois entry), links to the *.com website via a link for English. I'm not now questioning the reliability of any AlJazeera-named websites not controlled at the time by Al Jazeera, but, until that's closed as reliable, we should be wary of links to old pages via <archive.org> or other archiving services. Nick Levinson ( talk) 15:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC) (Corrected a substantial stupid error of mine and clarified statements: 15:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC))
If a subject is a speaker at an event, and on the event website they have a list of speakers... Can this be used as a citation? I don't see why it couldn't. Cap020570 ( talk) 21:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I would like to use this source in Bank of Lucas, Turner & Co., specifically for the image of the plaque attached to the building; however the site itself doesn't seem reliable. Is it acceptable to use this one part for this article? -- TKK bark ! 20:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
There is an RFC that may be of interest to this group at Talk:Gun_control#RFC. Subject of the RFC is "Is the use of gun restriction legislation or other confiscations by totalitarian governments (Nazi, Communist etc) accurately described as "Gun Control". Are such instances appropriate for inclusion in the Gun Control article. (Details at RFC in article)" Gaijin42 ( talk) 15:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a dispute at Citizenship Clause over whether or not this New York Times article is a reliable source for the following statement about the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: "There are varying interpretations of the original intent of Congress, based on statements made during the congressional debate over the amendment." The NYT piece discusses recent proposals to abolish US citizenship at birth for US-born children of illegal immigrants, and it talks about different opinions raised in Congress during the original debate over what eventually became the 14th Amendment. One IP editor has deleted this reference twice (see here and here), over my objection, stating in an edit summary that "these sources are editorials and, therefore, do not pass the requirements of a reliable source regardless of any other feature". I disagree over whether this is an appropriate interpretation of WP:NEWSORG in this situation, but I would like to hear other people's opinions. — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 01:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
The following has been disputed:
Modern scholars now believe the Papias tradition to be fairly trustworthy and usually interpret the tradition to mean Jesus' disciple Matthew had assembled a collection of Jesus' sayings in Hebrew or Aramaic. Blackwell 2010 p 301-302 Maurice Casey states that it is "genuinely true" that the apostle Matthew compiled the sayings of Jesus in a Hebrew dialect, Casey, 2010 pp 87-88 as the testimony of Papias explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves. Ehrman 2012 pp 98-101 Edwards 2009. pp 2-3
Therefore we need to know if any of the following are reliable sources?
Thanks, Ret.Prof ( talk) 12:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I am adding the two sources below to the list to take care of this problem all at once:
I also have a separate request in process at WP:Notability/Noticeboard#George Howard (Hebraist). Thank you. Ignocrates ( talk) 13:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
A Hebrew text of Matthew was published by the Spanish Jewish polemicist Ibn Shaprut in the 14th century. Although it has usually been considered to be his own translation, there are various signs pointing to the possibility that he was using a preexisting text based on something older than our present Greek text.
Above is the relevant content in the article based on Howard's work. Ignocrates ( talk) 14:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Would someone else who can see the rest of the above sources comment on those as well? Thank you. Ignocrates ( talk) 17:03, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
To follow up on the problem using Aune
Blackwell 2010 p 301-302, in the ( WP:RS, without possible dispute). Aune does not even say that the Papias tradition is reliable, the notice is on the reliability of the INTERPRETATION of what Eusebius says. The very next section (and the previous as well) definitively say that modern scholars have some sort of consensus that Matthew was originally written in Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic. The small section on Eusebius' seemingly contradictory note is there to support but to debunk. --
Anonymous209.6 (
talk) 16:14, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Just as a point of clarification about Blackwell above, here is the complete citation:
Duling is the author of the chapter being cited; David E. Aune is the editor of Blackwell. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
There were no comments on Persian Heritage (magazine) except for the two parties.
Party comments at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive_150#Persian Heritage_(magazine). -- Bejnar ( talk) 00:14, 23 June 2013 (UTC)