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Became persianate and persianate are not the same. -- Bejnar ( talk) 23:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Even the Seljuks are Persianate for wiki. What a shame. What a massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.98.141.60 ( talk) 11:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I would have to agree with the person above. Whenever I read wikipedia articles about Central Asia and Turkic history it always is in someway distorted to include either persian culture or language or anything. If you look at list of persian scientists on wikipedia they listed Ulug'bek as persian. Of course the cyber editing attack by tajiks and iranians is not just a bunch of minors sitting behind the computer and writing their pathetic opinions. It's an active attempt by iranian, afghan, and tajik groups (both private and public). Ultimately, wikipedia has never been considered a reliable source of information, especially for history and all universities automatically fail students who cite wikipedia. For example in the article Uzbekistan, almost the entire Turkic history of Transoxania which began in the 4th century happened to not even be mentioned, but the sasanid dynasty which was supposedly persian (although in reality islamic and they did not identity with nationalities of persian or arab). It's a damn shame that wikipedia let's this kind of behavior persist.Whenever I correct persian tampering with articles (and citing sources such as encyclopedia iranica) some persian people who obviously spend their twilight hours on wikipedia change thing back and administrators don't even bother to think that this is all part of a puny persian nationalist attempt to distort history. Rest assure however that scholars know history much better than these people who edit wikipedia, and scholars unquestionably have concluded that Iranian and Central Asia history have been dominated by Turkic elites since the 4th century AD.
Because turkic dynasties adoptet local customs and traditions and identified themself with Iranians and their myths. That was for Karachanids, Timurids, Mughals, Ghaznavids, Ilkhanids (Mongols) etc. Urbane and domisticated cultures were always dominante to nomadic people.-- 188.97.9.183 ( talk) 14:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
User:Nickzlapeor has been removing Category:History of Pakistan without explanation, telling me on my Talk page that it needs none. As the Ghaznavids empire covered a large part of what is now Pakistan, it seems to me to belong in that category (as well as in Category:History of Iran etc. If anyone believes otherwise, can we please have an explanation here? -- Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 11:00, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
"It is not only about this page, I want to put forward a view that History of Pakistan should only include pages belonging to the region of Pakistan, beginning from 1947 to present. This is because Pakistan was only created in that year, and so the category should be related to such pages only, since the country came into existence then." Nickzlapeor ( talk) 11:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
In the article, instead of using the term Slave, it's better to use Mamluk. BozokluAdam ( talk) 11:42, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
The introduction was written very unencyclopedic and very poorly/badly cited. The lead sentence was describing the dynasty's unimportant adoption of the Persian culture instead of highlighting the more important points. The introduction needed to highlight what the Ghaznavids accomplished during their rule and where their main capital(s) was located. I have listed the book references in one citation, restructured the sentences and added information from a neutral point and I wish it remains that way.-- Nasir Ghobar ( talk) 03:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
“ | The Ghaznavids (r. 977-1186 CE) established the largest empire in the eastern Muslim world since the 'Abbasids. The dynasty was of Turkish slave origin................. | ” |
“ | ............The Ghaznavids inherited Samanid administrative, political, and cultural traditions and laid the foundation for a Persianate state in northern India....... | ” |
“ | The Ghaznavid sultans were ethnically Turkish, but the sources, all in Arabic or Persian, do not allow us to estimate the persistence of Turkish practices and ways of thought amongst them. Yet given the fact that the essential basis of the Ghaznavids’ military support always remained their Turkish soldiery, there must always have been a need to stay attuned to their troops’ needs and aspirations; also, there are indications of the persistence of some Turkish literary culture under the early Ghaznavids (Köprülüzade, pp. 56-57). The sources do make it clear, however, that the sultans’ exercise of political power and the administrative apparatus which gave it shape came very speedily to be within the Perso-Islamic tradition of statecraft and monarchical rule, with the ruler as a distant figure, buttressed by divine favor, ruling over a mass of traders, artisans, peasants, etc., whose prime duty was obedience in all respects but above all in the payment of taxes. The fact that the personnel of the bureaucracy which directed the day-to-day running of the state, and which raised the revenue to support the sultans’ life-style and to finance the professional army, were Persians who carried on the administrative traditions of the Samanids, only strengthened this conception of secular power. The offices of vizier, treasurer, chief secretary, head of the war department, etc., were the preserves of Persians, and no Turks are recorded as ever having held them. It was not for nothing that the great Saljuq vizier Ḵᵛāja Neẓām-al-Molk held up Maḥmūd and the early Ghaznavids as exemplars of firm rule (Neẓām-al-Molk, passim; Barthold, Turkestan3, pp. 291-93; Bosworth, Ghaznavids, pp. 55-97). | ” |
“ | "The Ghaznavid sultans were ethnically Turkish, but the sources, all in Arabic or Persian, do not allow us to estimate the persistence of Turkish practices and ways of thought amongst them. Yet given the fact that the essential basis of the Ghaznavids’ military support always remained their Turkish soldiery', there must always have been a need to stay attuned to their troops’ needs and aspirations; also, there are indications of the persistence of some Turkish literary culture under the early Ghaznavids (Köprülüzade, pp. 56-57). The sources do make it clear, however, that the sultans’ exercise of political power and the administrative apparatus which gave it shape came very speedily to be within the Perso-Islamic tradition of statecraft and monarchical rule, with the ruler as a distant figure, buttressed by divine favor, ruling over a mass of traders, artisans, peasants, etc., whose prime duty was obedience in all respects but above all in the payment of taxes. The fact that the personnel of the bureaucracy which directed the day-to-day running of the state, and which raised the revenue to support the sultans’ life-style and to finance the professional army, were Persians who carried on the administrative traditions of the Samanids, only strengthened this conception of secular power. The offices of vizier, treasurer, chief secretary, head of the war department, etc., were the preserves of Persians, and no Turks are recorded as ever having held them....." | ” |
I noticed that there's a statement in the lead which has 8 citations, and several which have three. Look at WP:OVERCITE. In general, there should be the maximum number of three consecutive citations, but it should be as small as possible. The lead in particular should summarize the article's contents, so it shouldn't normally require citations at all. I'd advise editors to review the citations and select the best and most reliable ones. Thanks. Jesse V. ( talk) 19:09, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree that there are too many citations, however, I do not agree with Nasir Ghobar's general anti-Persian and anti-Iranian stance. He is trying to impose modern political thinking and ideology on a dynasty that existed 1000 years ago. That is in fact very unencyclopedic. His attempt to "Afghanize" this dynasty is wrong in both historical and political sense, because a) the ethno-linguistic term "Iranian" in this case has nothing to do with the modern country Iran (the relationship is the same as with "Germanic" and "Germany" or "Romanic" and "Romanian"), b) Afghanistan was created more than 750 years later (and took its name some 900 years later), c) it is undeniable that the Ghaznavids were thoroughly Persianized (or as Bertold Spuler and Bernard Lewis put it: "[...] the Ghaznavids were also Persianized and thereby became a Persian dynasty."; see: B. Spuler: The Disintegration of the Caliphate in the East; in: P.M. Holt, Ann K.S. Lambton, Bernard Lewis (Ed.): The Central Islamic Lands from Pre-Islamic Times to the First World War; The Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. Ia; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1970; p. 147) It is true that most Ghaznawid sultans lived and ruled in what 750 years later became Afghanistan, but that does not mean that it makes them "Afghans" or "Anti-Iranians" or "Anti-Persians" (a ridiculous claim, keeping in mind that most of the Ghaznavid sultans had Persian mothers and wives and bore Persian names). That's like claiming that Genghis Khan was not a Mongol, but a Russian and "anti-Mongol" because he was most-likely born in what is now Russian Siberia near Lake Baikal. Or that the Greek writer Homer was not Greek, but a Turk, because he was most likely born in Ionia which is now part of Turkey. Nasir Ghobar's point of view is ridiculed by the fact that in Ghaznavid sources - most notable in the writings of al-Biruni - the Afghans (Pashtuns; who back then lived further south in what is now Pakistan) are named as Non-Muslim enemies of the Ghaznavids, allied with the related Rajputs. It was only after their defeat that some of them joined the Ghaznavid army as mercenaries - a small and unimportant number, compared to the thousands of Turkic slave-soldiers or the hords of Arab, Persian, and Kurdish ghazis who made up the bulk of the Ghaznavid army during their Indian campaign. This article should definitly be edited and optimized. But not by revisionism and factual falacity. The German version could serve as a model. -- Lysozym ( talk) 07:04, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
After reading through this book, [15] I do not believe the information, regarding the Ghaznavid's "Sasanian" ancestry on page 112, is verifiable. A Sasanian family tree listing Yazdegerd III followed by a "?" then a Firuz i Barsinjan(who is subsequently followed by Kara Naman, Kara Millat, Kara Arslan, Huk and finally Sabak Tegin), is hardly evidence. The relating information about the Ghaznavids, found on pages 114-115, make no mention of Firuz-i-Barsinjan, Kara Naman, Kara Millat, Kara Arslan nor Huk. The Ghaznavid genealogical tree on page 116 also makes no mention of the individuals in question. Therefore, I am removing this reference as it does not have the required information to source this statement, "The Ghaznavids were also descended from the kings of the Sassanid Empire from Yazdegerd III's line". -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 00:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
The paragraph: They occupied Bukhara in 992, establishing in Transoxania the Qarakhanid, or Ilek Khanid, dynasty. After Alp Tigin's death in 993, Ishaq ibn Alptigin followed by Sebuktigin took to the throne. seems to have incorrect dates, since Alp Tigin died in 963. -- Bejnar ( talk) 19:48, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
If Alp Tigin founded the Ghaznavid dynasty at Ghazna (modern Ghazni Province) in 962, why is he not the first Ghaznavid ruler? -- Bejnar ( talk) 19:48, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
On Iranica it says that the start date for the Ghaznavids is 977. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 20:07, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Future Perfect at Sunrise requested a citation for the Ghaznavid flag. When a citation to Persian Heritage (magazine) was provided, Future Perfect at Sunrise removed the flag, indicating that Persian Heritage (magazine) was not a reliable source. The magazine's recent issues can be viewed at their website. Now it is true that a publication can be a reliable source for some things and not for others, but I fail to see why Persian Heritage (magazine) is not, in general, a reliable source for its non-editorial content, especially on a non-controversial point. Issue taken to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Persian Heritage (magazine). -- Bejnar ( talk) 08:31, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Although listed in the infobox as a predescessor dynasty, the Buyids (934-1055) were primarily a contemporaneous dynasty to the west of the Ghaznavids. They started their conquests about thirty years before Alp Tigin began his, but they both were the result of the Samanid decline. The eastern Buyid lands were eventually incorporated into the Ghaznavid empire which lasted about a hundred years longer than the Buyids. (Buyids lasted ~120 years; Ghaznavids lasted ~220 years.) -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:12, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
The source which you used [17], states that it was Mahmud who became the first independent Ghaznavid ruler, not Böritigin who was not even the founder of the dynasty.
Here is what the source says:
He secured from the ʿAbbasid caliph al-Qāder legitimation of his independent power and a string of honorific titles, including the one by which he became best known, Yamīn al-Dawla (Bosworth, 1962a, pp. 215-18). He divided up the former Samand dominions with the Ileg Naṣr (Gardīzī, ed. Ḥabībī, p. 175), who took over all the lands north of the Oxus for the Qarakhanids, and began a reign of thirty-two years, lengthy by contemporary standards.
It is funny you missed this but not the other thing on the source, misuse of source to suit your own agenda maybe?
Furthermore, according to the Cambridge history of Iran 4, Ismail and Sabuktigin were vassals of the Samanids, and it was Mahmud who declared independence (page 165-166). -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 14:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Sigh... sorry but did you write on the Ghaznavid article with closed eyes? in the article you wrote that these governors of Ghazna (which ended after the reign of Böritigin) were the only ones who were the vassals of the Samanids, but you have made the Ghaznavid rulers from Sabuktigin independent and then a vassal of the Seljuqs until a wrong period. And don't revert my edit when we are not discussing, that's not how it works, or are you running out of things to say?
And don't think you can hide from me by saying ”i know you don't agree with me then we must ask others”, since this is not how works here, we haven't even begun a proper discussion and you are already trying to leave? Well then next time think before you edit. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 17:22, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
How is that a personal attack? well then go ahead and try to report me and lets see who is right :).
Bad excuse, this is not about agreement, this is about using a reliable source which agrees with the things you write - you will have to answer, or else i would have to do what this says [18]. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 12:09, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps an addition to the Samanid Empire article concerning the governors of Ghazni?
That sounds great. Plus this article also needs some fixing, since the Ghaznavid rulers were more or less vassals of the Samanids until the reign of Mahmud. But instead of trying to make a argument for his edits, Qara Khan chooses to ignore me. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 22:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
It's super sweet you found a manuscript, but this a primary source and you are doing OR. Ogress smash! 04:04, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
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Please change "The use of these elephants in other regions that the Ghaznavids fought in, particularly in Central Asia, to which the elephant was a foreign weapon." to "The use of these elephants was a foreign weapon in other regions that the Ghaznavids fought in, particularly in Central Asia" Big kush daddy 420 ( talk) 19:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Why Ghaznavids and not Ghaznavid dynasty? The second one is more common for this kind of states. Aryzad ( talk) 14:28, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
The infobox has a map of the Ghaznavid empire, but I couldn't find the source for it. It wrongly includes Kashmir in the empire, whereas it is well known that Kashmir repelled their invasions. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Anyone knows which Turkic? Karluk? Sounds a bit vague. Beshogur ( talk) 12:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The term Persianate itself is flawed as it is very narrow. Japan was influenced by Chinese culture probably a lot more than the Ghaznavid Empire was influenced by Persian culture but we don't call the Japanese Empire as Sinate or Chineseate. It is a misleading term. It should not be in the lede. The Ghaznavids also had influences from various other cultures. Not to mention that Persian culture itself has been highly influenced by Arab culture. Let's avoid such narrow terms. Historynerdboy ( talk) 04:53, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
The military and tactic section must be edited and freed from errors and some POVs. Unfortunately, editing is not possible due unknown reasons. -- 88.215.91.49 ( talk) 10:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Good evening, HistoryifIran,
thanks brother for responding. Wasn't sure if anyone would read that. The POVs I mean in the article are a) the claim Ghaznavid army was mainly or overwhelming Turkic which was not that case. In fact, it was very multi-ethnical and multi-racial (Arabs, Kurds, eastern and western Iranians and to some extent and more royal to Ghaznavids than Turks, Indians). While Turks formed most of the royal guards, the overwhelming majority in the army were Iranians (local Khorasanians, Kurds and western Persians). Take a look at his commanders and their ethnic composition b) the claim Ghaznavids army was composed largely of Afghans. First of all, then the term 'Afghan' had most-likely another meaning, taking from Bactrian Hephtalithe language 'Afganano': [lands in possession in the far] /[lands in possession out of )(regional) reach] (N. Sims-Williams and Cheon), describing all ancestors of modern Nuristanis, Chitralis, Kashmiris, Pashtuns, Avans ... for further references al-Biruni on habitat of Afghans while describing the ancestors of modern Nuristanis, Kalach, Chitralis and Burushko (savages) c) the article suggests in that section that then Afghans in the modern meaning of Pashtuns did live in southern Afghanistan (modern political entity) while there is not a single reference to that, neither previously provided by Saffarids and nor by later dynasties like Kart Maliks and Ghurds or even Mughals calling southern Hindukush as Afghanistan. The sub-rulers Miranshahs and Merab Shahs who ruled the southern region still after 450years of Saffarid demise, never provided anything in this regard, while Juzjani clearly mentions the Ghurids took military action against the people of Shinvara and Karamiyya (Shinwara, obviously ancestors of modern Pashtunized Shinwari tribe, originally a dardic group and the people of Kurram Agency and Mastung, center of modern Pashtuns and most likely heardland of ancient Pashtuns) and so later their successors and sons-in-law, the Kart Maliks d) Mahmud Ghaznavi in fact, when invading India, killed tens of thousands Afghans fighting the Raja union of Multan and other localities, who were masters of the Afghan subjects. At the end, Mahmud brought between 7000 and 11000 Afghan slaves to Ghazna of whom ca 5000 were used and taught in military. The bigger? remaining served as personal slaves (water-bearers, groom, ...). Just the number of Arabs in the Ghaznavid army made about 20,000. That number is obviously outnumbering Afghan soldiers in the military of Ghaznavids. It wouldn't be correct but by far more realistic if you put ethnic Arab soldiers instread of Afghans forming with Turks in/from southern Afghanistan the Ghaznavid military. I have enough academic sources and references to fill that POV section with content and academic value. Let me know. Wish you a nice weekend 82.113.106.191 ( talk) 18:50, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
No brother, with all respect to you and your awesome amibition here, which I appreciate, but they are my references and I would like to write them down as part of the article. To be honest, actually the whole Ghaznavid article must be updated and re-written and better structured. I mean look at the introduction. Unbelievable long with too much information that could have been put in the main part of the article. In that view, the German articles with their short but concise are much a better.
A theoretical question. Mahmud Ghazni, according to Firdowsi, had a eastern Iranian Persian mother from Sistan (Dehqan). So he was half-Iranian. He married to Iranian women. The children were considered as Turks or Iranians and how much Turkishness they had after 3 generations? Ibrahim, who had tens of wifes had more than 30 daughters. All of them were married to local Iranian nobles. Such an information is very important to mention because it shows the integrity of the Ghaznavid Turks within the Iranian society or that they claimed for themselves to be descendants of Bahram Chobin, the Parthian and Sassanian General. Within the royal family, despite people calling Ghaznavids as Turks, they had the rule not to marry outside the Iranian ethnogenesis. Nothing of these important points and many more I read in this article. 212.161.68.146 ( talk) 02:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
This article deals more with a polity founded and ruled by the Ghaznavid dynasty than the dynasty itself, so my proposal is pretty logical. Even the infobox contradicts the title of this page. Any thoughts, Kansas Bear, Beshogur, Kautilya3, Ogress, HistoryofIran, BerkBerk68, Bejnar, Boing! said Zebedee? Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire 13:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
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Mention the descendents of the Ghaznivids. The Hazaras being 99% of Ghazni with the same Turkic features has not even been mentioned once In the Wikipedia page and needs to be added.
The modern day Ghaznavids are the Hazaras that live in Ghazni and the Hazaras are the descendents of the Ghaznivids that lived in that era. There has been no mention of them In the Wikipedia page and i request that the Wikipedia team writes about them and the inhabitants of Ghazni (the Hazaras) with the same Turkic features and DNA as the Ghaznivids. Their religion Is now prodominantly Shiite Islam due to the force conversions of Shah Ismail I during the Safavi era. General313 ( talk) 14:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Kansas Bear they were sold as slaves in the Middle East and trained there (Mamluks) Then Sabugtigin went back to the Samanid empire to and after the death of the ruler, he went to Ghazni and established the Ghaznavid empire HazaraHistorian ( talk) 00:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
@ Kansas Bear @ HistoryofIran Hey just wanted to ping you guys per my recent addition since you guys seem to edit these topics a lot -- [20]
I added a phrase that states the Ghaznavids of Turko-Afghan origin. If you wish to revert it, I am fine with that completely. If it's possible discuss it on the page here, that would be nice. The reason for the addition was that while subsequently researching on the Khiljis of Malwa, I stumbled upon a common reference term in books stated as the "Turko-Afghan period", which usually considers to have been started at the Ghaznavids and Ghurids, and extends to the Delhi Sultanates. I added some sources here on this page for the reference of "Turko-Afghan origin", but scrolling up on this talk page I see it has been a clear sign of dispute in the past.
I hope that this is clear that the term Afghan here should not be considered synonymous with Pashtun in this example. And I think adding a note would fix that (if this origin idea to be implemented in the lead and later is even agreed upon). Noorullah ( talk) 22:41, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
The slave dynasty 154.80.104.114 ( talk) 09:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
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Became persianate and persianate are not the same. -- Bejnar ( talk) 23:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Even the Seljuks are Persianate for wiki. What a shame. What a massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.98.141.60 ( talk) 11:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I would have to agree with the person above. Whenever I read wikipedia articles about Central Asia and Turkic history it always is in someway distorted to include either persian culture or language or anything. If you look at list of persian scientists on wikipedia they listed Ulug'bek as persian. Of course the cyber editing attack by tajiks and iranians is not just a bunch of minors sitting behind the computer and writing their pathetic opinions. It's an active attempt by iranian, afghan, and tajik groups (both private and public). Ultimately, wikipedia has never been considered a reliable source of information, especially for history and all universities automatically fail students who cite wikipedia. For example in the article Uzbekistan, almost the entire Turkic history of Transoxania which began in the 4th century happened to not even be mentioned, but the sasanid dynasty which was supposedly persian (although in reality islamic and they did not identity with nationalities of persian or arab). It's a damn shame that wikipedia let's this kind of behavior persist.Whenever I correct persian tampering with articles (and citing sources such as encyclopedia iranica) some persian people who obviously spend their twilight hours on wikipedia change thing back and administrators don't even bother to think that this is all part of a puny persian nationalist attempt to distort history. Rest assure however that scholars know history much better than these people who edit wikipedia, and scholars unquestionably have concluded that Iranian and Central Asia history have been dominated by Turkic elites since the 4th century AD.
Because turkic dynasties adoptet local customs and traditions and identified themself with Iranians and their myths. That was for Karachanids, Timurids, Mughals, Ghaznavids, Ilkhanids (Mongols) etc. Urbane and domisticated cultures were always dominante to nomadic people.-- 188.97.9.183 ( talk) 14:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
User:Nickzlapeor has been removing Category:History of Pakistan without explanation, telling me on my Talk page that it needs none. As the Ghaznavids empire covered a large part of what is now Pakistan, it seems to me to belong in that category (as well as in Category:History of Iran etc. If anyone believes otherwise, can we please have an explanation here? -- Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 11:00, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
"It is not only about this page, I want to put forward a view that History of Pakistan should only include pages belonging to the region of Pakistan, beginning from 1947 to present. This is because Pakistan was only created in that year, and so the category should be related to such pages only, since the country came into existence then." Nickzlapeor ( talk) 11:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
In the article, instead of using the term Slave, it's better to use Mamluk. BozokluAdam ( talk) 11:42, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
The introduction was written very unencyclopedic and very poorly/badly cited. The lead sentence was describing the dynasty's unimportant adoption of the Persian culture instead of highlighting the more important points. The introduction needed to highlight what the Ghaznavids accomplished during their rule and where their main capital(s) was located. I have listed the book references in one citation, restructured the sentences and added information from a neutral point and I wish it remains that way.-- Nasir Ghobar ( talk) 03:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
“ | The Ghaznavids (r. 977-1186 CE) established the largest empire in the eastern Muslim world since the 'Abbasids. The dynasty was of Turkish slave origin................. | ” |
“ | ............The Ghaznavids inherited Samanid administrative, political, and cultural traditions and laid the foundation for a Persianate state in northern India....... | ” |
“ | The Ghaznavid sultans were ethnically Turkish, but the sources, all in Arabic or Persian, do not allow us to estimate the persistence of Turkish practices and ways of thought amongst them. Yet given the fact that the essential basis of the Ghaznavids’ military support always remained their Turkish soldiery, there must always have been a need to stay attuned to their troops’ needs and aspirations; also, there are indications of the persistence of some Turkish literary culture under the early Ghaznavids (Köprülüzade, pp. 56-57). The sources do make it clear, however, that the sultans’ exercise of political power and the administrative apparatus which gave it shape came very speedily to be within the Perso-Islamic tradition of statecraft and monarchical rule, with the ruler as a distant figure, buttressed by divine favor, ruling over a mass of traders, artisans, peasants, etc., whose prime duty was obedience in all respects but above all in the payment of taxes. The fact that the personnel of the bureaucracy which directed the day-to-day running of the state, and which raised the revenue to support the sultans’ life-style and to finance the professional army, were Persians who carried on the administrative traditions of the Samanids, only strengthened this conception of secular power. The offices of vizier, treasurer, chief secretary, head of the war department, etc., were the preserves of Persians, and no Turks are recorded as ever having held them. It was not for nothing that the great Saljuq vizier Ḵᵛāja Neẓām-al-Molk held up Maḥmūd and the early Ghaznavids as exemplars of firm rule (Neẓām-al-Molk, passim; Barthold, Turkestan3, pp. 291-93; Bosworth, Ghaznavids, pp. 55-97). | ” |
“ | "The Ghaznavid sultans were ethnically Turkish, but the sources, all in Arabic or Persian, do not allow us to estimate the persistence of Turkish practices and ways of thought amongst them. Yet given the fact that the essential basis of the Ghaznavids’ military support always remained their Turkish soldiery', there must always have been a need to stay attuned to their troops’ needs and aspirations; also, there are indications of the persistence of some Turkish literary culture under the early Ghaznavids (Köprülüzade, pp. 56-57). The sources do make it clear, however, that the sultans’ exercise of political power and the administrative apparatus which gave it shape came very speedily to be within the Perso-Islamic tradition of statecraft and monarchical rule, with the ruler as a distant figure, buttressed by divine favor, ruling over a mass of traders, artisans, peasants, etc., whose prime duty was obedience in all respects but above all in the payment of taxes. The fact that the personnel of the bureaucracy which directed the day-to-day running of the state, and which raised the revenue to support the sultans’ life-style and to finance the professional army, were Persians who carried on the administrative traditions of the Samanids, only strengthened this conception of secular power. The offices of vizier, treasurer, chief secretary, head of the war department, etc., were the preserves of Persians, and no Turks are recorded as ever having held them....." | ” |
I noticed that there's a statement in the lead which has 8 citations, and several which have three. Look at WP:OVERCITE. In general, there should be the maximum number of three consecutive citations, but it should be as small as possible. The lead in particular should summarize the article's contents, so it shouldn't normally require citations at all. I'd advise editors to review the citations and select the best and most reliable ones. Thanks. Jesse V. ( talk) 19:09, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree that there are too many citations, however, I do not agree with Nasir Ghobar's general anti-Persian and anti-Iranian stance. He is trying to impose modern political thinking and ideology on a dynasty that existed 1000 years ago. That is in fact very unencyclopedic. His attempt to "Afghanize" this dynasty is wrong in both historical and political sense, because a) the ethno-linguistic term "Iranian" in this case has nothing to do with the modern country Iran (the relationship is the same as with "Germanic" and "Germany" or "Romanic" and "Romanian"), b) Afghanistan was created more than 750 years later (and took its name some 900 years later), c) it is undeniable that the Ghaznavids were thoroughly Persianized (or as Bertold Spuler and Bernard Lewis put it: "[...] the Ghaznavids were also Persianized and thereby became a Persian dynasty."; see: B. Spuler: The Disintegration of the Caliphate in the East; in: P.M. Holt, Ann K.S. Lambton, Bernard Lewis (Ed.): The Central Islamic Lands from Pre-Islamic Times to the First World War; The Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. Ia; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1970; p. 147) It is true that most Ghaznawid sultans lived and ruled in what 750 years later became Afghanistan, but that does not mean that it makes them "Afghans" or "Anti-Iranians" or "Anti-Persians" (a ridiculous claim, keeping in mind that most of the Ghaznavid sultans had Persian mothers and wives and bore Persian names). That's like claiming that Genghis Khan was not a Mongol, but a Russian and "anti-Mongol" because he was most-likely born in what is now Russian Siberia near Lake Baikal. Or that the Greek writer Homer was not Greek, but a Turk, because he was most likely born in Ionia which is now part of Turkey. Nasir Ghobar's point of view is ridiculed by the fact that in Ghaznavid sources - most notable in the writings of al-Biruni - the Afghans (Pashtuns; who back then lived further south in what is now Pakistan) are named as Non-Muslim enemies of the Ghaznavids, allied with the related Rajputs. It was only after their defeat that some of them joined the Ghaznavid army as mercenaries - a small and unimportant number, compared to the thousands of Turkic slave-soldiers or the hords of Arab, Persian, and Kurdish ghazis who made up the bulk of the Ghaznavid army during their Indian campaign. This article should definitly be edited and optimized. But not by revisionism and factual falacity. The German version could serve as a model. -- Lysozym ( talk) 07:04, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
After reading through this book, [15] I do not believe the information, regarding the Ghaznavid's "Sasanian" ancestry on page 112, is verifiable. A Sasanian family tree listing Yazdegerd III followed by a "?" then a Firuz i Barsinjan(who is subsequently followed by Kara Naman, Kara Millat, Kara Arslan, Huk and finally Sabak Tegin), is hardly evidence. The relating information about the Ghaznavids, found on pages 114-115, make no mention of Firuz-i-Barsinjan, Kara Naman, Kara Millat, Kara Arslan nor Huk. The Ghaznavid genealogical tree on page 116 also makes no mention of the individuals in question. Therefore, I am removing this reference as it does not have the required information to source this statement, "The Ghaznavids were also descended from the kings of the Sassanid Empire from Yazdegerd III's line". -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 00:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
The paragraph: They occupied Bukhara in 992, establishing in Transoxania the Qarakhanid, or Ilek Khanid, dynasty. After Alp Tigin's death in 993, Ishaq ibn Alptigin followed by Sebuktigin took to the throne. seems to have incorrect dates, since Alp Tigin died in 963. -- Bejnar ( talk) 19:48, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
If Alp Tigin founded the Ghaznavid dynasty at Ghazna (modern Ghazni Province) in 962, why is he not the first Ghaznavid ruler? -- Bejnar ( talk) 19:48, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
On Iranica it says that the start date for the Ghaznavids is 977. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 20:07, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Future Perfect at Sunrise requested a citation for the Ghaznavid flag. When a citation to Persian Heritage (magazine) was provided, Future Perfect at Sunrise removed the flag, indicating that Persian Heritage (magazine) was not a reliable source. The magazine's recent issues can be viewed at their website. Now it is true that a publication can be a reliable source for some things and not for others, but I fail to see why Persian Heritage (magazine) is not, in general, a reliable source for its non-editorial content, especially on a non-controversial point. Issue taken to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Persian Heritage (magazine). -- Bejnar ( talk) 08:31, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Although listed in the infobox as a predescessor dynasty, the Buyids (934-1055) were primarily a contemporaneous dynasty to the west of the Ghaznavids. They started their conquests about thirty years before Alp Tigin began his, but they both were the result of the Samanid decline. The eastern Buyid lands were eventually incorporated into the Ghaznavid empire which lasted about a hundred years longer than the Buyids. (Buyids lasted ~120 years; Ghaznavids lasted ~220 years.) -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:12, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
The source which you used [17], states that it was Mahmud who became the first independent Ghaznavid ruler, not Böritigin who was not even the founder of the dynasty.
Here is what the source says:
He secured from the ʿAbbasid caliph al-Qāder legitimation of his independent power and a string of honorific titles, including the one by which he became best known, Yamīn al-Dawla (Bosworth, 1962a, pp. 215-18). He divided up the former Samand dominions with the Ileg Naṣr (Gardīzī, ed. Ḥabībī, p. 175), who took over all the lands north of the Oxus for the Qarakhanids, and began a reign of thirty-two years, lengthy by contemporary standards.
It is funny you missed this but not the other thing on the source, misuse of source to suit your own agenda maybe?
Furthermore, according to the Cambridge history of Iran 4, Ismail and Sabuktigin were vassals of the Samanids, and it was Mahmud who declared independence (page 165-166). -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 14:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Sigh... sorry but did you write on the Ghaznavid article with closed eyes? in the article you wrote that these governors of Ghazna (which ended after the reign of Böritigin) were the only ones who were the vassals of the Samanids, but you have made the Ghaznavid rulers from Sabuktigin independent and then a vassal of the Seljuqs until a wrong period. And don't revert my edit when we are not discussing, that's not how it works, or are you running out of things to say?
And don't think you can hide from me by saying ”i know you don't agree with me then we must ask others”, since this is not how works here, we haven't even begun a proper discussion and you are already trying to leave? Well then next time think before you edit. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 17:22, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
How is that a personal attack? well then go ahead and try to report me and lets see who is right :).
Bad excuse, this is not about agreement, this is about using a reliable source which agrees with the things you write - you will have to answer, or else i would have to do what this says [18]. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 12:09, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps an addition to the Samanid Empire article concerning the governors of Ghazni?
That sounds great. Plus this article also needs some fixing, since the Ghaznavid rulers were more or less vassals of the Samanids until the reign of Mahmud. But instead of trying to make a argument for his edits, Qara Khan chooses to ignore me. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 22:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
It's super sweet you found a manuscript, but this a primary source and you are doing OR. Ogress smash! 04:04, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
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Please change "The use of these elephants in other regions that the Ghaznavids fought in, particularly in Central Asia, to which the elephant was a foreign weapon." to "The use of these elephants was a foreign weapon in other regions that the Ghaznavids fought in, particularly in Central Asia" Big kush daddy 420 ( talk) 19:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Why Ghaznavids and not Ghaznavid dynasty? The second one is more common for this kind of states. Aryzad ( talk) 14:28, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
The infobox has a map of the Ghaznavid empire, but I couldn't find the source for it. It wrongly includes Kashmir in the empire, whereas it is well known that Kashmir repelled their invasions. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Anyone knows which Turkic? Karluk? Sounds a bit vague. Beshogur ( talk) 12:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The term Persianate itself is flawed as it is very narrow. Japan was influenced by Chinese culture probably a lot more than the Ghaznavid Empire was influenced by Persian culture but we don't call the Japanese Empire as Sinate or Chineseate. It is a misleading term. It should not be in the lede. The Ghaznavids also had influences from various other cultures. Not to mention that Persian culture itself has been highly influenced by Arab culture. Let's avoid such narrow terms. Historynerdboy ( talk) 04:53, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
The military and tactic section must be edited and freed from errors and some POVs. Unfortunately, editing is not possible due unknown reasons. -- 88.215.91.49 ( talk) 10:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Good evening, HistoryifIran,
thanks brother for responding. Wasn't sure if anyone would read that. The POVs I mean in the article are a) the claim Ghaznavid army was mainly or overwhelming Turkic which was not that case. In fact, it was very multi-ethnical and multi-racial (Arabs, Kurds, eastern and western Iranians and to some extent and more royal to Ghaznavids than Turks, Indians). While Turks formed most of the royal guards, the overwhelming majority in the army were Iranians (local Khorasanians, Kurds and western Persians). Take a look at his commanders and their ethnic composition b) the claim Ghaznavids army was composed largely of Afghans. First of all, then the term 'Afghan' had most-likely another meaning, taking from Bactrian Hephtalithe language 'Afganano': [lands in possession in the far] /[lands in possession out of )(regional) reach] (N. Sims-Williams and Cheon), describing all ancestors of modern Nuristanis, Chitralis, Kashmiris, Pashtuns, Avans ... for further references al-Biruni on habitat of Afghans while describing the ancestors of modern Nuristanis, Kalach, Chitralis and Burushko (savages) c) the article suggests in that section that then Afghans in the modern meaning of Pashtuns did live in southern Afghanistan (modern political entity) while there is not a single reference to that, neither previously provided by Saffarids and nor by later dynasties like Kart Maliks and Ghurds or even Mughals calling southern Hindukush as Afghanistan. The sub-rulers Miranshahs and Merab Shahs who ruled the southern region still after 450years of Saffarid demise, never provided anything in this regard, while Juzjani clearly mentions the Ghurids took military action against the people of Shinvara and Karamiyya (Shinwara, obviously ancestors of modern Pashtunized Shinwari tribe, originally a dardic group and the people of Kurram Agency and Mastung, center of modern Pashtuns and most likely heardland of ancient Pashtuns) and so later their successors and sons-in-law, the Kart Maliks d) Mahmud Ghaznavi in fact, when invading India, killed tens of thousands Afghans fighting the Raja union of Multan and other localities, who were masters of the Afghan subjects. At the end, Mahmud brought between 7000 and 11000 Afghan slaves to Ghazna of whom ca 5000 were used and taught in military. The bigger? remaining served as personal slaves (water-bearers, groom, ...). Just the number of Arabs in the Ghaznavid army made about 20,000. That number is obviously outnumbering Afghan soldiers in the military of Ghaznavids. It wouldn't be correct but by far more realistic if you put ethnic Arab soldiers instread of Afghans forming with Turks in/from southern Afghanistan the Ghaznavid military. I have enough academic sources and references to fill that POV section with content and academic value. Let me know. Wish you a nice weekend 82.113.106.191 ( talk) 18:50, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
No brother, with all respect to you and your awesome amibition here, which I appreciate, but they are my references and I would like to write them down as part of the article. To be honest, actually the whole Ghaznavid article must be updated and re-written and better structured. I mean look at the introduction. Unbelievable long with too much information that could have been put in the main part of the article. In that view, the German articles with their short but concise are much a better.
A theoretical question. Mahmud Ghazni, according to Firdowsi, had a eastern Iranian Persian mother from Sistan (Dehqan). So he was half-Iranian. He married to Iranian women. The children were considered as Turks or Iranians and how much Turkishness they had after 3 generations? Ibrahim, who had tens of wifes had more than 30 daughters. All of them were married to local Iranian nobles. Such an information is very important to mention because it shows the integrity of the Ghaznavid Turks within the Iranian society or that they claimed for themselves to be descendants of Bahram Chobin, the Parthian and Sassanian General. Within the royal family, despite people calling Ghaznavids as Turks, they had the rule not to marry outside the Iranian ethnogenesis. Nothing of these important points and many more I read in this article. 212.161.68.146 ( talk) 02:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
This article deals more with a polity founded and ruled by the Ghaznavid dynasty than the dynasty itself, so my proposal is pretty logical. Even the infobox contradicts the title of this page. Any thoughts, Kansas Bear, Beshogur, Kautilya3, Ogress, HistoryofIran, BerkBerk68, Bejnar, Boing! said Zebedee? Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire 13:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
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Mention the descendents of the Ghaznivids. The Hazaras being 99% of Ghazni with the same Turkic features has not even been mentioned once In the Wikipedia page and needs to be added.
The modern day Ghaznavids are the Hazaras that live in Ghazni and the Hazaras are the descendents of the Ghaznivids that lived in that era. There has been no mention of them In the Wikipedia page and i request that the Wikipedia team writes about them and the inhabitants of Ghazni (the Hazaras) with the same Turkic features and DNA as the Ghaznivids. Their religion Is now prodominantly Shiite Islam due to the force conversions of Shah Ismail I during the Safavi era. General313 ( talk) 14:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Kansas Bear they were sold as slaves in the Middle East and trained there (Mamluks) Then Sabugtigin went back to the Samanid empire to and after the death of the ruler, he went to Ghazni and established the Ghaznavid empire HazaraHistorian ( talk) 00:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
@ Kansas Bear @ HistoryofIran Hey just wanted to ping you guys per my recent addition since you guys seem to edit these topics a lot -- [20]
I added a phrase that states the Ghaznavids of Turko-Afghan origin. If you wish to revert it, I am fine with that completely. If it's possible discuss it on the page here, that would be nice. The reason for the addition was that while subsequently researching on the Khiljis of Malwa, I stumbled upon a common reference term in books stated as the "Turko-Afghan period", which usually considers to have been started at the Ghaznavids and Ghurids, and extends to the Delhi Sultanates. I added some sources here on this page for the reference of "Turko-Afghan origin", but scrolling up on this talk page I see it has been a clear sign of dispute in the past.
I hope that this is clear that the term Afghan here should not be considered synonymous with Pashtun in this example. And I think adding a note would fix that (if this origin idea to be implemented in the lead and later is even agreed upon). Noorullah ( talk) 22:41, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
The slave dynasty 154.80.104.114 ( talk) 09:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)