Case clerk: Dreamy Jazz ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: BDD ( Talk) & Primefac ( Talk) & Maxim ( Talk)
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User:Paradise Chronicle has repeatedly made the baseless claim that me and other users of showing: "tolerance towards ISIS" [1] [2]"ISIS-Erdogan or Assad POV pushing" [3].
At the first diff Paradise Chronicle was defending the sockpuppet User:Konli17 who was the one that started the entire disruption at the Syrian Kurdistan article. Without that sockpuppet there wouldn't be any arbitration case right now. "That they now want to oust Konli17, who really improved many articles" [4] the sockpuppet Konli17 adding fake maps into Wikipedia: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11](This is the fake map: [12]) removes well sourced historical info that Kurds migrated from Turkey into Syria: [13] [14]. There are many more diffs just like these by the sockpuppet Konli17 that Paradise Chronicle felt the need to defend while claiming the disruptive sock had "really improved many articles".
Expand: Take a look at this comment: [15] Not only does Paradise Chronicle once again claim me and others of having an ISIS POV but his comment seems like some kind of promotion or recruitment attempt. Does this look like someone that is here to build a neutral encyclopedia? -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 06:20, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Today's Kurdish nationalist claim is that part of Syria is "Kurdistan". They call this "Syrian Kurdistan" or "Western Kurdistan". There are historical sources that show that "Western Kurdistan" is not in Syria. These historical sources therefore exposes today's Kurdish nationalist claims as having no historical basis. Levich decides to remove the well source historical information from the article: [16] [17]
Valereee introduces source restriction [18] Valereee later clarified that it is "disputed" not because the content was disputed by another source, but because another editor disputed it: [19] Basically giving unprecedented veto power to Levivich and other users to remove sourced and undisputed content out of the article. This has now led to large amounts of undisputed and well sourced historical information and historical maps being removed from the article [20] [21] and no one dares to say anything against this in fear of getting blocked. I ask the arbitrators to please lift this newly implanted source restriction.
I would also like to bring attention to a comment made my an uninvolved Administrator at the AN where he perfectly described the situation: "You can easily see how this could be gamed, though: somebody finds a historical detail they don't like, appropriately cited to a pre-2000 source, edits it out and boom, now it's "disputed" and the bar for re-adding it is much stricter than projectwide policy supports." [22]
On 28 November Valereee blocked me because I said "cherry picked sources" [23] and said at my talkpage: "Talk about the edits, not the editor.". On 7 January Levivich accused me of "cherry picking" [24] Valereee did not give him a block, not even a warning at his talkpage. Even when i pointed this out to her: [25] So there is one type of rules that only I have to follow and I get blocked for but "the other side" does not have to follow those rules and they will not receive any block for saying the exact same thing.
These quotes above are all from one single discussion with GPinkerton at the Syrian kurdistan talkpage.
Take a look at this AN discussion to see the history of GPinkerton and all the disputes she has been involved in: [47]. That AN discussion was only closed because she was indeffed. Unfortunately an admin lifted her indef block. Her current topic ban is only temporally and she will return to the Syrian Kurdistan article. Look at the quotes I posted above, do we need more of those comments at the Syrian Kurdistan article?
Look how calm the Syrian Kurdistan article became as soon as GPinkerton and the sockupuppet Konli17 were removed from the article. 0% edit warring or disruption for several months now.-- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 14:41, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
GPinkertons "evidence" about me is really mostly a compilation of good edits on my part, but if anyone thought otherwise let me go in to detail:
Here: [48], GPinkerton claims: "Supreme Deliciousness misrepresents sources". Look at the diff: [49] I'm quoting academic scholarly sources.
Here: [50] GPinkerton claims: "Supreme Deliciousness eradicates mentions of (Iraqi) Kurdistan" The name of the country Hawler/Erbil is located in is Iraq, not Kurdistan. I was therefore correcting false text in Wikipedia. [51].
Here: [52] GPinkerton claims: "Supreme Deliciousness eradicates mentions of (Syrian) Kurdistan". My edit was a revert of the sockpuppet User:Konli17 after he got indefd. The sock who started the entire disruption at the Syrian Kurdistan article.
Here: [53] GPinkerton claims: "Supreme Deliciousness seeks to remove the names "Syrian Kurdistan" and "Rojava" altogether" She bring these comments from me: [54] [55] [56] [57] What exactly am I trying to "remove" ? I am trying to correctly describe what "Syrian Kurdistan" is. I stand by my comments 100%. They are 100% accurate. "Syrian Kurdistan" is not an official name for an area in Syria, and it is not a historical name for an area in Syria. "Syrian Kurdistan" is a conception held by some people. And this is not my personal pov, this is the words of academic scholars:
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Concerning the "Coda" Here: [58] I have removed "Israel" where Israeli-occupied territories are falsely described as being "in Israel". This includes the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Israeli-occupied Jerusalem and Israeli-occupied Golan Heights. My edits are in accordance with Wikipedia policy npov.
Concerning the block I received at commons, its was 7 years ago, and it was lifted immediately after.
Concerning my topic ban I received. 1. It was 12 years ago. 2 Both my "opponents" was a sockpuppeteer and his sockpuppet and they were later both indefed for abusing multiple accounts: [59] [60]. Had it not been for this sockpuppeteer and his sockpuppet that he controlled, I would never have been topic banned, because there would not have been any disruption. It was actually similar to this case, the sockpuppet User:Konli17 started the entire disruption at the Syrian Kurdistan article, and here we are now with an arbitration case. The Wikipedia system failed 12 years ago and let the socks win, do not repeat the same mistake now. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 14:41, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
I was asked by El_C [61] to summarize the general disruption I've seen in Kurdish-related articles, so here we go. I've seen an immense amount of POV-poshing, disruptive editing that almost always resulted in the editors getting blocked after not being able to argue for their edits and/or personally attacking me. I started cleaning Kurdish-related articles back in March 2019 and experienced daily sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, hounding, povforks, ANI-abuse and one editor impersonating me to get me banned. Ultimately many, many and many editors were banned indefinitely. Most of this took place from March to June 2019 and slowly ebbed out by the end of the year but the problem does flare up sometimes.
This entry is therefore about the general disruption seen in Kurdish-related topics since 2019. If I had to describe the disruption, it was definitely attempts to question the Kurdishness of the respective articles, but easy to counter since they were blatant POV-pushes.
This page was one of the articles experiencing a lot of disruption. Prior to my involvement, the article saw an attempt to disassociate this Kurdish dialect/language from Kurds. You can see how the word 'Kurdish' is being removed by this editor [62]. I then removed the blatant POV-push [63] (and general clean up) but was reverted and accused of conducting ethno-pov [64] by the same editor. This user would ultimately get blocked but the article continued to experience disruption and POV-pushing immediately after [65] which continued till June when it got indefinitely protected [66]. On October 25th, protection was lowered [67] but reinstated the next day [68].
Annoyed by my actions at the 'Kurmanji'-page, the same editor(s) chose to focus on the already-existing Povfork Kurmanjis which without any reference claimed that Kurmanji-speaking Kurds were in fact an ethnic group. [69] This was just another attempt to disassociate the Kurmanji vernacular from Kurds. They failed linguistically and now attempted ethnically. Nonetheless, they failed and the page was redirected to Kurds. [70]
Perhaps the best example of how ridiculous this vandalism is. This template is only used on one page [71] but has experienced a long-standing ping-pong between removing and adding the word 'Kurdish' after 'Kurmanji' [72].
The state of the article before I got involved [73]. The main issues were pushing for the notion that Ezidkhan was a geographically defined territory but also the attempt to portray the flag of the HPÊ as the flag of Yazidis. I removed the flag [74] and general clean up like removing blogs used as reference. I got called a Kurdish nationalist [75] and the editor was ultimately banned. I subsequently moved the article to List of Yazidi settlements [76] and made it into a page containing villages populated by Yazidis. I moreover cleaned up articles where Ezidkhan was portrayed as an autonomous entity in this fashion [77] and in total these articles included most of the articles included in this category.
Ultimately redirected to Persecution of Yazidis by Muslims, this page was just a 'let's find anything we can on Muslims of Kurdish origin oppressing Yazidis and add it here', despite the fact that scholars clearly stated that the oppression took place due to the religion and not the ethnicity of the perpetrators.
Editor Shadegan had for years and almost succeeded in their pov-push on various articles until I confronted them with references. Never have I experienced an editor so determined to their cause and any interaction was completely futile due to lack of a direct answer. Instead they would turn to personal attacks and start disrupting unrelated Kurdish articles just to annoy me. For example, they would request a name move for Flag of Kurdistan and Iranian Kurdistan which also attracted some of the disruptive editors and IPs from the Kurmanji/Yazidi group [78] [79].
The main pov-push from Shadegan was the attempt to question the Kurdishness of Kurdish tribes and dialects. Most of these pages had to be almost fully rewritten, so before and current urls of these articles is probably the best way to showcase the pov-push:
Disruptive editors from the Kurmanji/Yazidi group joined in in another dispute as well [80].
Back in October last year, I expanded these articles Kifri, Jalawla, Khanaqin and other similar articles. As I expanded these articles, one editor with various accounts kept rewording my edits (and thereby add OR) to suit their POV. Examples: [81] [82] [83] -- Semsûrî ( talk) 16:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
I have watching Gaziantep, in it there has been small edits to raise Kurdish points, sometimes clumsy, but in good faith. But they seem to be met with short, unhelpful responses. There is frustration, there is strong indication of "deeper issues" at play. The editors concerned though have not overstepped any lines of wiki-behaviour here, just an example of the problems around Kurds and things related to them. Brunswicknic ( talk) 03:28, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Just for the record, Special:Diff/991171223 is not me objecting to "cherry picking", although cherry picking is always objectionable. But my objection was to SD saying 'cherry picked sources that further pushes the debunked "Syrian kurdistan" fraud'. The cherry picking is bad, but it's the assertion of 'further pushes the debunked SK fraud' that was the problem. ETA: and SD is right, I should have been clearer that there were two specific problems in their statement I was objecting to. —valereee ( talk) 22:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Little opinion on Kurdistan or much of this case, but I dispute SD's timeline of events and presentation in the section about the page restriction.
I ask the arbitrators to please lift this newly implanted source restriction.I believe the only venue for appeal of community-authorised discretionary sanctions is to the community at AN, not ArbCom, and the discussion imposing the sanctions said as much.
any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)(emphasis mine).
The restriction is well-designed (perhaps not perfect, but we failed to come up with something better in the AN discussion) and quite proper in my view. It appears to have been intended to reduce disruption (and reduce it did), and upheld by the community for these reasons.
diff Removing Northern Kurdistan in the Category Turkish Kurdistan
diff Removing Iraqi Kurdistan in Kurds in Iraq for unsourced
diff Kurdistan is a secular idea. It doesn't exist because it has no reason to exist...,there isn't really such thing as a Kurdish name
in this very ArbCom Case on Kurds and Kurdistan
diff Removing Kurdistan from Kurmanji (the article about a Kurdish language)
diff Removing Turkish Kurdistan in the city Nusaybin (in Turkey) and it is noted that it is Kurdish majority city just before the mention of Turkish Kurdistan.
Often editors remove just the Kurdish name of the locality
diff removing Kurdish for unsourced, but leaving Arab unsourced at Jarabulus
diff Dilok at Gaziantep for unreliable source
diff again Dilok because they were apparently Wikipedia sources, one was a Kurdish source, the other a Turkish one.
diff this edit history happens sometimes.
diff at Ain Dara
No.3 is tricky, might be a misunderstanding, we could assume good faith for this edit, but they claim
diff there isn't really such thing as a Kurdish name
.
Amuda in the Jazira Region is a good example how it works with civility in Kurdish articles in Syrian Kurdistan diff
diff etc. Several removals of the Jazira Region in the pro-Kurdish AANES, and subsequent reverts, diff diff etc. then a diff of an uninvolved editor who states that Amuda actually is Governed in the Jazira region, then again revert for the reason that the category was created by a blocked editor.
at Al Malikyah, too
An editor asks for a move. No-one opposes for 10 days. He moves the page and an edit war begins. Today it is again Al Malikiyah.
diff literally I don't care what you think
about the WP article in a long discussion on Kurdish names and issues. Then report the editor for edit warring while edit warring the same amount (8 times) and even
managing to achieve a block by admin EdJohnston
Good example is Admin EdJohnston who closed the Move discussion where it was discussed on whether Syrian Kurdistan should be moved to Kurdish occupied Regions in Syrian or Rojava during the ISIL led Siege of Kobane in January 2015.
Later in May 2020 they blocked Konli17 for edit warring for making about the same amount of reverts like the filer of the report following a discussion in which Konli17 hoped for an admin worth his salt, EdJohnston mentioned his super powerful admin radar and their doubts on Konli17's edits and didn't answer anymore in the discussion. After I brought the block up on their talk page they later wished the ones still involved in the dispute good luck and only wanted to be involved again if a proper RfC is set up. I didn't know how to do that and seeing their past of closing the move discussion in 2015 and other interactions I had with them not concerning Kurdistan...
diff Guerillero blocked GPinkerton indef. for filing a report at the ANI insisting on a solution for the Syrian Kurdistan dispute on the 4 December 2020.
diff Swarm accused me of having called someone a sympathizer of a Terrorist organization for calling someone tolerant towards ISIL in a discussion relating to Kurds and Kurdistan
Seeming to classify areas liberated from ISIL (Like former ISIL stronghold Tell Abyad) as Kurdish or PYD occupied. (October 2016)
diff Being occupied by MILITARY FORCE...
diff The areas in your maps are occupied by military force
diff claiming Operation Euphrates Shield was directed mainly at ISIS
diff suggesting the Kurdish-YPG (who is supported by a global coalition fighting ISIL) and ISIL are just as bad
diff diff Wanting to move Syrian Kurdistan into Kurdish occupied regions in Syria in the midst of the very well known ISIL led Siege of Kobane
Turkish POV during the Siege of Sur
diff classify the attempts the Kurds made to receive autonomy as Kurdish Separatism (unsourced!) and removing Turkish Kurdistan
diff in List of assassinations of the Kurdish–Turkish conflict, removing Hevrin Khalaf, Hevrin Khalafs murder was sourced by WaPo.
diff We have a ton of evidence presented throughout the article and the Talk page that this is a term used/invented by Kurds
after someone just brought in ca 15 (WP:Overkill) sources, (most of them academic) for a Syrian Kurdistan.
diff only! removing academic sources for a Syrian Kurdistan.
I'd like to add that I am interested in general improvement of the civility in, the quality and the NPOV within the edits performed in Kurdish related articles.
There is no Turkish Kurdistan")
there’s no country called Kurdistan")
Please note, for example, today's action involving Special:Contributions/ShewanKara. With disruption beginning over 2 months ago. Indeffed by me today (a few minutes ago). Had there been better tools (like a DS/alert), for both editors and admins, much disruption and distress could have been avoided. This is par for the course. My hope, then, is that the Committee approves of ACDS measures to address this chronic, poorly-attended (from an enforcement perspective) problems that have been afflicting this topic area for so long. El_C 13:56, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
The complaining editors SD, Amr Ibn and ThePharoah17 have all shown a very surprising tolerance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) which appears not to be on the radar of the Admins.
If a request on a efficient and resilient pro-Kurdish editor is filed, admins were likely to T-Ban or block the editor. But I didn't find yet an admin who is willing to even address the issue of anyone calling the areas liberated from the Islamic State of the Levant or Jihadists (the best known UN classified Terror Organization in the world with countless front-page appearances in reliable sources, and a terrible women's rights record) Kurdish occupied, even if those are made in pages within the scope of the Wikipedia:General sanctions/Syrian Civil War and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
Eva Savelsberg is not a good source, but others are. ... She attends Forums organized by the SETA and listen how she talks about freedom of press in the AANES
Harun Yahya refutes Darwinsim and is accused of anti-semitism according to his Wikipedia article. Maybe not the best source for a controversial phrase on Wikipedia
User Paradise Chronicle ignored DRN case they opened and suggestion by volunteer user Nightenbelle, and decided to remove the SOURCED Washington Post material and Washington Institute material and continued to edit-war. They even removed the material during the DRN
User PC whitewashes certain militant groups such as the PYD here, despite having a consensus regarding that wording achieved with the help of user El C here.
... when I asked for the opinion about the ISIS issue of a candidate during the ArbCom elections ... The pro-Kurdish AANES, has democratic, gender-egalitarian, women empowering, multicultural policies and the SDF, which includes the YPG, are the armed forces of the AANES.
User Paradise Chronicle has used obscure websites as sources to push controversial POV edits. Examples here and here to claim the existence of a Kurdish name instead of the centuries-old name Aintab ( Antep).
Here Paradise Chronicle removed sourced content from the Washington Post and insertion of Citation needed" template instead. Their edit summary said "remove nonsense". They have done this several times at the same page.
On 8 Feb., PC just removed the EXACT same material for which they were blocked before by El C.
GPinkerton was blocked five times since last June.
Here is a series of warnings GPinkerton received from Valereee during their tban:
Ugh, GP, I think this probably violates your tban...why don't you strike your post, and Levivich and I will discuss somewhere else, where you're welcome to read but probably shouldn't comment, at least until you ask probably either Guerillero or EI C for advice. And shit...does this make me involved at SK? ...
GP, I think you need to stop. Special:Diff/997046884: is too much. Stop now, we're going to need to discuss further.
I'm telling you that your exemption from your topic ban is rescinded until further notice.
I've told GP to stop with the additions at that page. Really disappointed.
Did you or did you not write ....?
… What I care about it whether the language is confrontational. Why would you even consider posting this there after we urged you to be neutral?
. Rebuttal: That number is clearly presented at the bottom of the column for Arabs in that source.using OR to decide that not one of the 25,000 "nomads" listed in the totals is a Kurd.
Even when using the numbers they provided (in addition to the 25,000 they dropped), Kurds are 35% of al-Hasakah Province (using the sum numbers at the bottom of the table: 53,315 Kurds out of 152,150). Still GPinkerton has tendentiously and falsely kept arguing that Kurds represent the majority:
This has prompted Valereee to intervene and debunk GPinkerton's claim here
>50% is a majority. If there are three or more groups, one can instead have a plurality. 50% Kurds, if they're the largest single group, would form a plurality and are not correctly called a majority.
And they have been on WP:AN3 a lot too:
They have been on WP:ANI too:
in light of the contributions of others, the statements of Cullen328 and The Bushranger look faintly ridiculous.
Samples of WP:POV, WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:RGW mentality (there is a ton more):
The claim of the all-importance of the Treaty of Sevres is a lie ignorant of history and wilfully oblivious to the sources editors may peruse below. This user's insistence on claiming that
a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan"is exactly the kind of false narrative they have been bludgeoning people with for months (years?). Any look at any of the works will show that the editor's POV is divorced from the real world, and is apparently vocally, partisan as regards the al-Assad regime and its opponents.
You appear to be labouring under the false impression the wall of text you have posted above supports your claim that the majority of them (if not all) immigrated from Turkey, a claim which is rejected by reliable sources which all state was a lie invented by the racist Syrian government…
Nonsense. None of these claims are relevant here, and neither is this wall of text. No-one is going to let you openly push Arab nationalism, you can stop trying to claim neutral facts are Kurdish nationalist conspiracy. No-one believes this frantic pearl-clutching by the the Arab nationalists themselves
but as point of fact that article (which is Turkish state propaganda not fit for quotations of fact in any case, especially in an article dealing with their continued genocidal conduct in Syria)
Any look at any of the works will show that the editor's POV is divorced from the real world, and is apparently vocally, partisan as regards the al-Assad regime and its opponents.
Rank hypocrisy. I've expanded with quotes since you're too unwilling to lift a finger to pull the wool from your own eyes and read a book.
Can you read? Or do you only spew? Scroll up. Read
The idea the idea it didn't exist before 2011 is as laughable as the editor's understanding of epistemology.
This is the kind of incompetent comment that this editor has already repeatedly made. ... Make if that what you will. The perverse insistence that everyone pick up the fringe attitude of Damascus and Ankara towards (perhaps also Saddam?) against the continued existence of Kurdish people on the grounds that (like both Syria and Turkey) they did not have a state in the 1920s. This denialism flies in the face of what reliable sources have called the region for a half century or more. Indeed the source quoted above details in depth the long history of the term "Syrian Kurdistan", in stark contradiction of the shrill and either disingenuous or ignorant claims by this editor that it had never been used before 2011, and was cooked up by the west to embarrass the Dear Leader.
The claim that they were all imported there by the French is just a silly lie and not borne out by even the most cursory look at the sources advanced in favour of this POV.
a bizzare stricture.
Can you read?
a clear mark of someone who doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.
Is English your first language?
lobbyand then as
vandals who are involved in groupthinkand
an anti-blasphemy ringleader who is weaseling[scattered, among other insults, throughout their prolonged comment
and argues against its removal:
and for its supposedly reliability (... that is was a secret political document prepared for political purposes?) using nothing but OR and wishful thinking
and uses it to contest the reliability of sources 70 years newer and infinitely more academic and reliable, violating both SYNTH and OR as well as common sense
and to "disprove" the whole notion of Syrian Kurdistan:
Supreme Deliciousness desperately wants the world to believe the Ba'athist lie that Syrian Kurdistan has never been historically Kurdish (this was the subject of an ethnic cleansing effort in the 1960s) and to prove this racist dogma Supreme Deliciousness repeatedly cites a PhD thesis [203] and wrongly claims that the estimated 25,000 "nomads" mentioned in Table 3 are "Arabs". There is literally no suggestion of this in the source, and its only purpose is to prove the Ba'athist (and later Assadist) national socialist propaganda that, along with the ethnic cleansing programme of the "Arab Belt" policy, attempts to delegitimize Syrian Kurds and to prove the long-discredited claim that most or all of the population of Syrian Kurdistan is non-Kurd. here [204], [205] [206] [207] hilarious oxymoronic "largest minority"
infiltrating"!
[209] Part of Western Kurdistan being in modern Turkey cannot preclude another part of Western Kurdistan being in modern Syria. (See the fallacy of denying the antecedent, where
"this kind of false terminology can not be used in an encyclopedia"
"a 20th century concept of Syrian Kurdistan")
Added some background info and number)
"Who says northern Syria is Western kurdistan?")
"Updated regional coverage per established sources, not POV outlets")
Concerning Prof. Martin van Bruinessen:
scholar[he's actually a professor] whose book is now merely
personal opinionand tainted by association with the
Center for Kurdish Studies (sounds very neutral)[emphasis original] which, in the space of less than twenty-four hours, has now become unspeakably biased and unusable for reasons that remain unexplained. The statement concerning Kurdistan divided between four modern states in the professor's book is now neutralized as now
NOT an established fact. (The question of the reliability of arguments drawn ex silentio from the book's preface is not addressed ...)
"(sounds very neutral)" ... "Martin Dr Martin", the self-same Professor whose work عمرو بن كلثوم pooh-poohed before.
عمرو بن كلثوم desperately wants the world to believe the Ba'athist lie that Syrian Kurdistan has never been historically Kurdish (this was the subject of an ethnic cleansing effort in the 1960s) and to prove this racist dogma عمرو بن كلثوم repeatedly cites a PhD thesis [258] and wrongly claims that the estimated 25,000 "nomads" mentioned in Table 3 are "Arabs". There is literally no suggestion of this in the source, and its only purpose is to prove the Ba'athist (and later Assadist) national socialist propaganda that, along with the ethnic cleansing programme of the "Arab Belt" policy, attempts to delegitimize Syrian Kurds and to prove the long-discredited claim that most or all of the population of Syrian Kurdistan is non-Kurd. here on this page [259]
and this onethis should conclude our discussion about the origins of Kurds in northeastern Syria (i.e. the majority of them (if not all) immigrated from Turkey). When you claim these areas are "part of Kurdistan", what does that make of the native population (majority) living on their lands before Kurds arrived? Trespassers? Does that sound fair to you?
The people who oppose the free press are are meaningless minority and to describe them as such would be undue pandering to the extremists, who, naturally, are the only ones to oppose the images. Indeed, opposition to the images is ipso facto extreme.
@Vice regent: Are you joking? This supposed event, which labels the victims of Turkey's ongoing genocide in the region occupied by its armed forces and its allies "terrorists", presents as fact claims that happened in places presently occupied by forces loyal to Erdogan, one of the major proponents of the anti-free speech lobby. How can you suggest this has nothing to do with the civil war? In which reality would that be the case? Here on earth, claims of the opinion of the masses of an occupied territory cannot be reliably attributed to the sate media of an authoritarian Islamist occupier. It's really funny to read read your claims here, given your strenuous allegation about non-reliable sources in other discussions ... I wonder why that might be. The source cannot be used, and the events as described almost certainly never took place, given the usual reliability of wartime statements from official Turkish sources and their clear conflict of interest in reporting the latest genocide in their long history of genocide in the region.
Did you read the part of the source that says
Meanwhile, small anti-French protests were held in Libya, Gaza and northern Syria, where Turkish-backed militias exert control.? Or did you somehow read it and decide the occupation of the area in which these "protests" are said to have taken place by the armies of Erdogan's Islamists is somehownothing to do with the Turkish government? That's really quite a failure of logic, and contorting the interpretation of the Turkish propaganda coverage of an event non-corroborated by other sources (viz, the so called "attack" on the so-called "protest" by the so-called "terrorists") is well beyond, well, belief.
Case clerk: Dreamy Jazz ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: BDD ( Talk) & Primefac ( Talk) & Maxim ( Talk)
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User:Paradise Chronicle has repeatedly made the baseless claim that me and other users of showing: "tolerance towards ISIS" [1] [2]"ISIS-Erdogan or Assad POV pushing" [3].
At the first diff Paradise Chronicle was defending the sockpuppet User:Konli17 who was the one that started the entire disruption at the Syrian Kurdistan article. Without that sockpuppet there wouldn't be any arbitration case right now. "That they now want to oust Konli17, who really improved many articles" [4] the sockpuppet Konli17 adding fake maps into Wikipedia: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11](This is the fake map: [12]) removes well sourced historical info that Kurds migrated from Turkey into Syria: [13] [14]. There are many more diffs just like these by the sockpuppet Konli17 that Paradise Chronicle felt the need to defend while claiming the disruptive sock had "really improved many articles".
Expand: Take a look at this comment: [15] Not only does Paradise Chronicle once again claim me and others of having an ISIS POV but his comment seems like some kind of promotion or recruitment attempt. Does this look like someone that is here to build a neutral encyclopedia? -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 06:20, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Today's Kurdish nationalist claim is that part of Syria is "Kurdistan". They call this "Syrian Kurdistan" or "Western Kurdistan". There are historical sources that show that "Western Kurdistan" is not in Syria. These historical sources therefore exposes today's Kurdish nationalist claims as having no historical basis. Levich decides to remove the well source historical information from the article: [16] [17]
Valereee introduces source restriction [18] Valereee later clarified that it is "disputed" not because the content was disputed by another source, but because another editor disputed it: [19] Basically giving unprecedented veto power to Levivich and other users to remove sourced and undisputed content out of the article. This has now led to large amounts of undisputed and well sourced historical information and historical maps being removed from the article [20] [21] and no one dares to say anything against this in fear of getting blocked. I ask the arbitrators to please lift this newly implanted source restriction.
I would also like to bring attention to a comment made my an uninvolved Administrator at the AN where he perfectly described the situation: "You can easily see how this could be gamed, though: somebody finds a historical detail they don't like, appropriately cited to a pre-2000 source, edits it out and boom, now it's "disputed" and the bar for re-adding it is much stricter than projectwide policy supports." [22]
On 28 November Valereee blocked me because I said "cherry picked sources" [23] and said at my talkpage: "Talk about the edits, not the editor.". On 7 January Levivich accused me of "cherry picking" [24] Valereee did not give him a block, not even a warning at his talkpage. Even when i pointed this out to her: [25] So there is one type of rules that only I have to follow and I get blocked for but "the other side" does not have to follow those rules and they will not receive any block for saying the exact same thing.
These quotes above are all from one single discussion with GPinkerton at the Syrian kurdistan talkpage.
Take a look at this AN discussion to see the history of GPinkerton and all the disputes she has been involved in: [47]. That AN discussion was only closed because she was indeffed. Unfortunately an admin lifted her indef block. Her current topic ban is only temporally and she will return to the Syrian Kurdistan article. Look at the quotes I posted above, do we need more of those comments at the Syrian Kurdistan article?
Look how calm the Syrian Kurdistan article became as soon as GPinkerton and the sockupuppet Konli17 were removed from the article. 0% edit warring or disruption for several months now.-- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 14:41, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
GPinkertons "evidence" about me is really mostly a compilation of good edits on my part, but if anyone thought otherwise let me go in to detail:
Here: [48], GPinkerton claims: "Supreme Deliciousness misrepresents sources". Look at the diff: [49] I'm quoting academic scholarly sources.
Here: [50] GPinkerton claims: "Supreme Deliciousness eradicates mentions of (Iraqi) Kurdistan" The name of the country Hawler/Erbil is located in is Iraq, not Kurdistan. I was therefore correcting false text in Wikipedia. [51].
Here: [52] GPinkerton claims: "Supreme Deliciousness eradicates mentions of (Syrian) Kurdistan". My edit was a revert of the sockpuppet User:Konli17 after he got indefd. The sock who started the entire disruption at the Syrian Kurdistan article.
Here: [53] GPinkerton claims: "Supreme Deliciousness seeks to remove the names "Syrian Kurdistan" and "Rojava" altogether" She bring these comments from me: [54] [55] [56] [57] What exactly am I trying to "remove" ? I am trying to correctly describe what "Syrian Kurdistan" is. I stand by my comments 100%. They are 100% accurate. "Syrian Kurdistan" is not an official name for an area in Syria, and it is not a historical name for an area in Syria. "Syrian Kurdistan" is a conception held by some people. And this is not my personal pov, this is the words of academic scholars:
Academic scholarly sources |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Concerning the "Coda" Here: [58] I have removed "Israel" where Israeli-occupied territories are falsely described as being "in Israel". This includes the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Israeli-occupied Jerusalem and Israeli-occupied Golan Heights. My edits are in accordance with Wikipedia policy npov.
Concerning the block I received at commons, its was 7 years ago, and it was lifted immediately after.
Concerning my topic ban I received. 1. It was 12 years ago. 2 Both my "opponents" was a sockpuppeteer and his sockpuppet and they were later both indefed for abusing multiple accounts: [59] [60]. Had it not been for this sockpuppeteer and his sockpuppet that he controlled, I would never have been topic banned, because there would not have been any disruption. It was actually similar to this case, the sockpuppet User:Konli17 started the entire disruption at the Syrian Kurdistan article, and here we are now with an arbitration case. The Wikipedia system failed 12 years ago and let the socks win, do not repeat the same mistake now. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 14:41, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
I was asked by El_C [61] to summarize the general disruption I've seen in Kurdish-related articles, so here we go. I've seen an immense amount of POV-poshing, disruptive editing that almost always resulted in the editors getting blocked after not being able to argue for their edits and/or personally attacking me. I started cleaning Kurdish-related articles back in March 2019 and experienced daily sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, hounding, povforks, ANI-abuse and one editor impersonating me to get me banned. Ultimately many, many and many editors were banned indefinitely. Most of this took place from March to June 2019 and slowly ebbed out by the end of the year but the problem does flare up sometimes.
This entry is therefore about the general disruption seen in Kurdish-related topics since 2019. If I had to describe the disruption, it was definitely attempts to question the Kurdishness of the respective articles, but easy to counter since they were blatant POV-pushes.
This page was one of the articles experiencing a lot of disruption. Prior to my involvement, the article saw an attempt to disassociate this Kurdish dialect/language from Kurds. You can see how the word 'Kurdish' is being removed by this editor [62]. I then removed the blatant POV-push [63] (and general clean up) but was reverted and accused of conducting ethno-pov [64] by the same editor. This user would ultimately get blocked but the article continued to experience disruption and POV-pushing immediately after [65] which continued till June when it got indefinitely protected [66]. On October 25th, protection was lowered [67] but reinstated the next day [68].
Annoyed by my actions at the 'Kurmanji'-page, the same editor(s) chose to focus on the already-existing Povfork Kurmanjis which without any reference claimed that Kurmanji-speaking Kurds were in fact an ethnic group. [69] This was just another attempt to disassociate the Kurmanji vernacular from Kurds. They failed linguistically and now attempted ethnically. Nonetheless, they failed and the page was redirected to Kurds. [70]
Perhaps the best example of how ridiculous this vandalism is. This template is only used on one page [71] but has experienced a long-standing ping-pong between removing and adding the word 'Kurdish' after 'Kurmanji' [72].
The state of the article before I got involved [73]. The main issues were pushing for the notion that Ezidkhan was a geographically defined territory but also the attempt to portray the flag of the HPÊ as the flag of Yazidis. I removed the flag [74] and general clean up like removing blogs used as reference. I got called a Kurdish nationalist [75] and the editor was ultimately banned. I subsequently moved the article to List of Yazidi settlements [76] and made it into a page containing villages populated by Yazidis. I moreover cleaned up articles where Ezidkhan was portrayed as an autonomous entity in this fashion [77] and in total these articles included most of the articles included in this category.
Ultimately redirected to Persecution of Yazidis by Muslims, this page was just a 'let's find anything we can on Muslims of Kurdish origin oppressing Yazidis and add it here', despite the fact that scholars clearly stated that the oppression took place due to the religion and not the ethnicity of the perpetrators.
Editor Shadegan had for years and almost succeeded in their pov-push on various articles until I confronted them with references. Never have I experienced an editor so determined to their cause and any interaction was completely futile due to lack of a direct answer. Instead they would turn to personal attacks and start disrupting unrelated Kurdish articles just to annoy me. For example, they would request a name move for Flag of Kurdistan and Iranian Kurdistan which also attracted some of the disruptive editors and IPs from the Kurmanji/Yazidi group [78] [79].
The main pov-push from Shadegan was the attempt to question the Kurdishness of Kurdish tribes and dialects. Most of these pages had to be almost fully rewritten, so before and current urls of these articles is probably the best way to showcase the pov-push:
Disruptive editors from the Kurmanji/Yazidi group joined in in another dispute as well [80].
Back in October last year, I expanded these articles Kifri, Jalawla, Khanaqin and other similar articles. As I expanded these articles, one editor with various accounts kept rewording my edits (and thereby add OR) to suit their POV. Examples: [81] [82] [83] -- Semsûrî ( talk) 16:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
I have watching Gaziantep, in it there has been small edits to raise Kurdish points, sometimes clumsy, but in good faith. But they seem to be met with short, unhelpful responses. There is frustration, there is strong indication of "deeper issues" at play. The editors concerned though have not overstepped any lines of wiki-behaviour here, just an example of the problems around Kurds and things related to them. Brunswicknic ( talk) 03:28, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Just for the record, Special:Diff/991171223 is not me objecting to "cherry picking", although cherry picking is always objectionable. But my objection was to SD saying 'cherry picked sources that further pushes the debunked "Syrian kurdistan" fraud'. The cherry picking is bad, but it's the assertion of 'further pushes the debunked SK fraud' that was the problem. ETA: and SD is right, I should have been clearer that there were two specific problems in their statement I was objecting to. —valereee ( talk) 22:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Little opinion on Kurdistan or much of this case, but I dispute SD's timeline of events and presentation in the section about the page restriction.
I ask the arbitrators to please lift this newly implanted source restriction.I believe the only venue for appeal of community-authorised discretionary sanctions is to the community at AN, not ArbCom, and the discussion imposing the sanctions said as much.
any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)(emphasis mine).
The restriction is well-designed (perhaps not perfect, but we failed to come up with something better in the AN discussion) and quite proper in my view. It appears to have been intended to reduce disruption (and reduce it did), and upheld by the community for these reasons.
diff Removing Northern Kurdistan in the Category Turkish Kurdistan
diff Removing Iraqi Kurdistan in Kurds in Iraq for unsourced
diff Kurdistan is a secular idea. It doesn't exist because it has no reason to exist...,there isn't really such thing as a Kurdish name
in this very ArbCom Case on Kurds and Kurdistan
diff Removing Kurdistan from Kurmanji (the article about a Kurdish language)
diff Removing Turkish Kurdistan in the city Nusaybin (in Turkey) and it is noted that it is Kurdish majority city just before the mention of Turkish Kurdistan.
Often editors remove just the Kurdish name of the locality
diff removing Kurdish for unsourced, but leaving Arab unsourced at Jarabulus
diff Dilok at Gaziantep for unreliable source
diff again Dilok because they were apparently Wikipedia sources, one was a Kurdish source, the other a Turkish one.
diff this edit history happens sometimes.
diff at Ain Dara
No.3 is tricky, might be a misunderstanding, we could assume good faith for this edit, but they claim
diff there isn't really such thing as a Kurdish name
.
Amuda in the Jazira Region is a good example how it works with civility in Kurdish articles in Syrian Kurdistan diff
diff etc. Several removals of the Jazira Region in the pro-Kurdish AANES, and subsequent reverts, diff diff etc. then a diff of an uninvolved editor who states that Amuda actually is Governed in the Jazira region, then again revert for the reason that the category was created by a blocked editor.
at Al Malikyah, too
An editor asks for a move. No-one opposes for 10 days. He moves the page and an edit war begins. Today it is again Al Malikiyah.
diff literally I don't care what you think
about the WP article in a long discussion on Kurdish names and issues. Then report the editor for edit warring while edit warring the same amount (8 times) and even
managing to achieve a block by admin EdJohnston
Good example is Admin EdJohnston who closed the Move discussion where it was discussed on whether Syrian Kurdistan should be moved to Kurdish occupied Regions in Syrian or Rojava during the ISIL led Siege of Kobane in January 2015.
Later in May 2020 they blocked Konli17 for edit warring for making about the same amount of reverts like the filer of the report following a discussion in which Konli17 hoped for an admin worth his salt, EdJohnston mentioned his super powerful admin radar and their doubts on Konli17's edits and didn't answer anymore in the discussion. After I brought the block up on their talk page they later wished the ones still involved in the dispute good luck and only wanted to be involved again if a proper RfC is set up. I didn't know how to do that and seeing their past of closing the move discussion in 2015 and other interactions I had with them not concerning Kurdistan...
diff Guerillero blocked GPinkerton indef. for filing a report at the ANI insisting on a solution for the Syrian Kurdistan dispute on the 4 December 2020.
diff Swarm accused me of having called someone a sympathizer of a Terrorist organization for calling someone tolerant towards ISIL in a discussion relating to Kurds and Kurdistan
Seeming to classify areas liberated from ISIL (Like former ISIL stronghold Tell Abyad) as Kurdish or PYD occupied. (October 2016)
diff Being occupied by MILITARY FORCE...
diff The areas in your maps are occupied by military force
diff claiming Operation Euphrates Shield was directed mainly at ISIS
diff suggesting the Kurdish-YPG (who is supported by a global coalition fighting ISIL) and ISIL are just as bad
diff diff Wanting to move Syrian Kurdistan into Kurdish occupied regions in Syria in the midst of the very well known ISIL led Siege of Kobane
Turkish POV during the Siege of Sur
diff classify the attempts the Kurds made to receive autonomy as Kurdish Separatism (unsourced!) and removing Turkish Kurdistan
diff in List of assassinations of the Kurdish–Turkish conflict, removing Hevrin Khalaf, Hevrin Khalafs murder was sourced by WaPo.
diff We have a ton of evidence presented throughout the article and the Talk page that this is a term used/invented by Kurds
after someone just brought in ca 15 (WP:Overkill) sources, (most of them academic) for a Syrian Kurdistan.
diff only! removing academic sources for a Syrian Kurdistan.
I'd like to add that I am interested in general improvement of the civility in, the quality and the NPOV within the edits performed in Kurdish related articles.
There is no Turkish Kurdistan")
there’s no country called Kurdistan")
Please note, for example, today's action involving Special:Contributions/ShewanKara. With disruption beginning over 2 months ago. Indeffed by me today (a few minutes ago). Had there been better tools (like a DS/alert), for both editors and admins, much disruption and distress could have been avoided. This is par for the course. My hope, then, is that the Committee approves of ACDS measures to address this chronic, poorly-attended (from an enforcement perspective) problems that have been afflicting this topic area for so long. El_C 13:56, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
The complaining editors SD, Amr Ibn and ThePharoah17 have all shown a very surprising tolerance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) which appears not to be on the radar of the Admins.
If a request on a efficient and resilient pro-Kurdish editor is filed, admins were likely to T-Ban or block the editor. But I didn't find yet an admin who is willing to even address the issue of anyone calling the areas liberated from the Islamic State of the Levant or Jihadists (the best known UN classified Terror Organization in the world with countless front-page appearances in reliable sources, and a terrible women's rights record) Kurdish occupied, even if those are made in pages within the scope of the Wikipedia:General sanctions/Syrian Civil War and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
Eva Savelsberg is not a good source, but others are. ... She attends Forums organized by the SETA and listen how she talks about freedom of press in the AANES
Harun Yahya refutes Darwinsim and is accused of anti-semitism according to his Wikipedia article. Maybe not the best source for a controversial phrase on Wikipedia
User Paradise Chronicle ignored DRN case they opened and suggestion by volunteer user Nightenbelle, and decided to remove the SOURCED Washington Post material and Washington Institute material and continued to edit-war. They even removed the material during the DRN
User PC whitewashes certain militant groups such as the PYD here, despite having a consensus regarding that wording achieved with the help of user El C here.
... when I asked for the opinion about the ISIS issue of a candidate during the ArbCom elections ... The pro-Kurdish AANES, has democratic, gender-egalitarian, women empowering, multicultural policies and the SDF, which includes the YPG, are the armed forces of the AANES.
User Paradise Chronicle has used obscure websites as sources to push controversial POV edits. Examples here and here to claim the existence of a Kurdish name instead of the centuries-old name Aintab ( Antep).
Here Paradise Chronicle removed sourced content from the Washington Post and insertion of Citation needed" template instead. Their edit summary said "remove nonsense". They have done this several times at the same page.
On 8 Feb., PC just removed the EXACT same material for which they were blocked before by El C.
GPinkerton was blocked five times since last June.
Here is a series of warnings GPinkerton received from Valereee during their tban:
Ugh, GP, I think this probably violates your tban...why don't you strike your post, and Levivich and I will discuss somewhere else, where you're welcome to read but probably shouldn't comment, at least until you ask probably either Guerillero or EI C for advice. And shit...does this make me involved at SK? ...
GP, I think you need to stop. Special:Diff/997046884: is too much. Stop now, we're going to need to discuss further.
I'm telling you that your exemption from your topic ban is rescinded until further notice.
I've told GP to stop with the additions at that page. Really disappointed.
Did you or did you not write ....?
… What I care about it whether the language is confrontational. Why would you even consider posting this there after we urged you to be neutral?
. Rebuttal: That number is clearly presented at the bottom of the column for Arabs in that source.using OR to decide that not one of the 25,000 "nomads" listed in the totals is a Kurd.
Even when using the numbers they provided (in addition to the 25,000 they dropped), Kurds are 35% of al-Hasakah Province (using the sum numbers at the bottom of the table: 53,315 Kurds out of 152,150). Still GPinkerton has tendentiously and falsely kept arguing that Kurds represent the majority:
This has prompted Valereee to intervene and debunk GPinkerton's claim here
>50% is a majority. If there are three or more groups, one can instead have a plurality. 50% Kurds, if they're the largest single group, would form a plurality and are not correctly called a majority.
And they have been on WP:AN3 a lot too:
They have been on WP:ANI too:
in light of the contributions of others, the statements of Cullen328 and The Bushranger look faintly ridiculous.
Samples of WP:POV, WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:RGW mentality (there is a ton more):
The claim of the all-importance of the Treaty of Sevres is a lie ignorant of history and wilfully oblivious to the sources editors may peruse below. This user's insistence on claiming that
a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan"is exactly the kind of false narrative they have been bludgeoning people with for months (years?). Any look at any of the works will show that the editor's POV is divorced from the real world, and is apparently vocally, partisan as regards the al-Assad regime and its opponents.
You appear to be labouring under the false impression the wall of text you have posted above supports your claim that the majority of them (if not all) immigrated from Turkey, a claim which is rejected by reliable sources which all state was a lie invented by the racist Syrian government…
Nonsense. None of these claims are relevant here, and neither is this wall of text. No-one is going to let you openly push Arab nationalism, you can stop trying to claim neutral facts are Kurdish nationalist conspiracy. No-one believes this frantic pearl-clutching by the the Arab nationalists themselves
but as point of fact that article (which is Turkish state propaganda not fit for quotations of fact in any case, especially in an article dealing with their continued genocidal conduct in Syria)
Any look at any of the works will show that the editor's POV is divorced from the real world, and is apparently vocally, partisan as regards the al-Assad regime and its opponents.
Rank hypocrisy. I've expanded with quotes since you're too unwilling to lift a finger to pull the wool from your own eyes and read a book.
Can you read? Or do you only spew? Scroll up. Read
The idea the idea it didn't exist before 2011 is as laughable as the editor's understanding of epistemology.
This is the kind of incompetent comment that this editor has already repeatedly made. ... Make if that what you will. The perverse insistence that everyone pick up the fringe attitude of Damascus and Ankara towards (perhaps also Saddam?) against the continued existence of Kurdish people on the grounds that (like both Syria and Turkey) they did not have a state in the 1920s. This denialism flies in the face of what reliable sources have called the region for a half century or more. Indeed the source quoted above details in depth the long history of the term "Syrian Kurdistan", in stark contradiction of the shrill and either disingenuous or ignorant claims by this editor that it had never been used before 2011, and was cooked up by the west to embarrass the Dear Leader.
The claim that they were all imported there by the French is just a silly lie and not borne out by even the most cursory look at the sources advanced in favour of this POV.
a bizzare stricture.
Can you read?
a clear mark of someone who doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.
Is English your first language?
lobbyand then as
vandals who are involved in groupthinkand
an anti-blasphemy ringleader who is weaseling[scattered, among other insults, throughout their prolonged comment
and argues against its removal:
and for its supposedly reliability (... that is was a secret political document prepared for political purposes?) using nothing but OR and wishful thinking
and uses it to contest the reliability of sources 70 years newer and infinitely more academic and reliable, violating both SYNTH and OR as well as common sense
and to "disprove" the whole notion of Syrian Kurdistan:
Supreme Deliciousness desperately wants the world to believe the Ba'athist lie that Syrian Kurdistan has never been historically Kurdish (this was the subject of an ethnic cleansing effort in the 1960s) and to prove this racist dogma Supreme Deliciousness repeatedly cites a PhD thesis [203] and wrongly claims that the estimated 25,000 "nomads" mentioned in Table 3 are "Arabs". There is literally no suggestion of this in the source, and its only purpose is to prove the Ba'athist (and later Assadist) national socialist propaganda that, along with the ethnic cleansing programme of the "Arab Belt" policy, attempts to delegitimize Syrian Kurds and to prove the long-discredited claim that most or all of the population of Syrian Kurdistan is non-Kurd. here [204], [205] [206] [207] hilarious oxymoronic "largest minority"
infiltrating"!
[209] Part of Western Kurdistan being in modern Turkey cannot preclude another part of Western Kurdistan being in modern Syria. (See the fallacy of denying the antecedent, where
"this kind of false terminology can not be used in an encyclopedia"
"a 20th century concept of Syrian Kurdistan")
Added some background info and number)
"Who says northern Syria is Western kurdistan?")
"Updated regional coverage per established sources, not POV outlets")
Concerning Prof. Martin van Bruinessen:
scholar[he's actually a professor] whose book is now merely
personal opinionand tainted by association with the
Center for Kurdish Studies (sounds very neutral)[emphasis original] which, in the space of less than twenty-four hours, has now become unspeakably biased and unusable for reasons that remain unexplained. The statement concerning Kurdistan divided between four modern states in the professor's book is now neutralized as now
NOT an established fact. (The question of the reliability of arguments drawn ex silentio from the book's preface is not addressed ...)
"(sounds very neutral)" ... "Martin Dr Martin", the self-same Professor whose work عمرو بن كلثوم pooh-poohed before.
عمرو بن كلثوم desperately wants the world to believe the Ba'athist lie that Syrian Kurdistan has never been historically Kurdish (this was the subject of an ethnic cleansing effort in the 1960s) and to prove this racist dogma عمرو بن كلثوم repeatedly cites a PhD thesis [258] and wrongly claims that the estimated 25,000 "nomads" mentioned in Table 3 are "Arabs". There is literally no suggestion of this in the source, and its only purpose is to prove the Ba'athist (and later Assadist) national socialist propaganda that, along with the ethnic cleansing programme of the "Arab Belt" policy, attempts to delegitimize Syrian Kurds and to prove the long-discredited claim that most or all of the population of Syrian Kurdistan is non-Kurd. here on this page [259]
and this onethis should conclude our discussion about the origins of Kurds in northeastern Syria (i.e. the majority of them (if not all) immigrated from Turkey). When you claim these areas are "part of Kurdistan", what does that make of the native population (majority) living on their lands before Kurds arrived? Trespassers? Does that sound fair to you?
The people who oppose the free press are are meaningless minority and to describe them as such would be undue pandering to the extremists, who, naturally, are the only ones to oppose the images. Indeed, opposition to the images is ipso facto extreme.
@Vice regent: Are you joking? This supposed event, which labels the victims of Turkey's ongoing genocide in the region occupied by its armed forces and its allies "terrorists", presents as fact claims that happened in places presently occupied by forces loyal to Erdogan, one of the major proponents of the anti-free speech lobby. How can you suggest this has nothing to do with the civil war? In which reality would that be the case? Here on earth, claims of the opinion of the masses of an occupied territory cannot be reliably attributed to the sate media of an authoritarian Islamist occupier. It's really funny to read read your claims here, given your strenuous allegation about non-reliable sources in other discussions ... I wonder why that might be. The source cannot be used, and the events as described almost certainly never took place, given the usual reliability of wartime statements from official Turkish sources and their clear conflict of interest in reporting the latest genocide in their long history of genocide in the region.
Did you read the part of the source that says
Meanwhile, small anti-French protests were held in Libya, Gaza and northern Syria, where Turkish-backed militias exert control.? Or did you somehow read it and decide the occupation of the area in which these "protests" are said to have taken place by the armies of Erdogan's Islamists is somehownothing to do with the Turkish government? That's really quite a failure of logic, and contorting the interpretation of the Turkish propaganda coverage of an event non-corroborated by other sources (viz, the so called "attack" on the so-called "protest" by the so-called "terrorists") is well beyond, well, belief.