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Discussions relevant to this post can be found in various locations, but most recently on the BLP/N. User:Cirt is contending that Anson Shupe is not a reliable source for information on the Jason Scott case. The basis of this claim seems to be that one specific piece of information in a book of Shupe's, regarding the case, is inaccurate. It is unclear if Cirt thinks the particular book is an entirely unreliable source for anything or if s/he thinks Anson is an entirely unreliable source for any information on Rick Ross (consultant) or the Jason Scott case specifically. The relevant book is listed below:
{{
cite book}}
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ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)It has been suggested both on the BLP/N and on the various talk pages that Cirt has cross-posted his (un)reliability claim on [1], [2], [3] that he take the issue here. It has been my assertion that one inaccuracy does not make an otherwise reliable source unreliable, but clearly Cirt disagrees. A copy of Cirt's argument can be found here: Talk:Rick_Ross_(consultant)#Shupe_source_should_not_be_used. Any suggestions? I'm interested not only in this particular case but the precedent that following Cirt's logic would set more generally. Thanks. PelleSmith ( talk) 21:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
If we went by this, then in this case we'd have practically no sources left to use. There were two trials, one of criminal charges, the other, a civil suit.
Now, for the criminal trial and the basic matters of fact of the case:
Moving now from the criminal to the civil case:
That does not mean the "Phoenix New Times" and the "Seattle Times" are out as sources, because they got some facts wrong along the way. The proper method for dealing with such things is triangulation, and where a source is flatly contradicted by another,
As the editor mentioned repeatedly in this post by PelleSmith ( talk · contribs), I wish that I would have been informed at my talk page about this. Anson Shupe has repeatedly consulted with Church of Scientology lead attorney Kendrick Moxon, and he was a paid consultant during the Jason Scott case. This financial conflict of interest source should be avoided.
Jayen466 ( talk · contribs) used the Anson Shupe source to write that the criminal trial of Rick Ross (consultant) in the Jason Scott case resulted in a "hung jury" [4], [5]. This is a false statement. See this source (cited by Jayen466 himself for other info in the article and yet neglected in this instance) where it states: "On January 18, 1994, after just two hours of deliberations, a Greys Harbor jury acquitted Rick Ross of unlawful detainment."
The factual inaccuracy in the Anson Shupe source is much more significant - it is the main judgment in the criminal case involving Rick Ross (consultant), arguably one of the most important pieces of information in that entire section of the book - not simply a fact about whether someone was taken to a hotel or a beach-house. When this factual inaccuracy about such a crucial piece of information is taken into account - the most important piece of information in the case - coupled with the financial conflict of interest - we should really take care not to use this source, especially when we should have stricter standards about using sources in biographies of living persons. Cirt ( talk) 02:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Am I missing something? Regardless of the tone of the Shupe book, there seem to be plenty of definitely reliable sources that establish the following facts:
Is there any doubt about the factual accuracy of these statements? If not, is there any doubt about the relevance of these facts to the article in question? DaveApter ( talk) 16:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Rick_Ross_.28consultant.29. Jayen 466 16:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Kali#Origin -- please see the "origin" section for the kali article, I am uncertain how to sort this whole mess out. -- Kuzetsa ( talk) 16:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Should this picture be accepted without a confirming third party source? I never heard of "tens of thousands of Slovak children deported to Hungary for denationalization". Very controversial claim and this memorial raised by a government often linked to anti-Hungarian views is the only reference for this right now.
Squash Racket (
talk) 06:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for weighing in. Squash Racket ( talk) 06:33, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
DCEETA [6] "The US government position on the nature and classification of the site may have some merit, however the use of the source to articulate speculation was fairly explicit original research. The NYTs opinion on what the russians may or may not know is merely their opinion, using it to bolster the OR in the rest of the section is specious, to say the least. " so says user:ALR------- Dogue ( talk) 17:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
In the article Romani people national football team, this website is used as a reference. The website claims that several living persons (soccer players) are gypsies. Is this source sufficient for Wikipedia to make such a claim, or does the source fail Wikipedia:BLP#Reliable_sources? -- Kjetil r ( talk) 17:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The answer is no - BLP claims and Self-published = NOPE. --
Cameron Scott (
talk) 17:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
A number of biography pages have as a source and/or external link the (commercial) site BrainyQuote.com. The links generally take you to a page of quotes attributed to the person whose page had the link, but no citation information is given for the quotes. Is this a reliable source? Should it be present on all of the 200+ pages which currently link to it from special:search? (an example of it used as a reference: John Sexton (photographer))
Dialectric ( talk) 18:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I'm doing a GA review of Akshardham (Delhi), and a lot of the sources used are from travel agencies (like [7], [8], and [9], among others). Are these reliable? Thanks. Intothewoods29 ( talk) 19:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to clean up the page of List of best-selling music artists by tossing away the artists with unreliable sources. The artists on this page directly depend on sources which prove they've sold as many records the brackets indicate which the artists are place in. My question is about this source which claims that Oasis have sold more than 50 million records. Could we treat this source as reliable.-- Harout72 ( talk) 21:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Are review sites reliable sources for Wikipedia? I had always wondered about that... Like Amazon and all the other ones. I figured no because they just publish others opinions and summary, but can anyone give me a definite answer? Lady★ Galaxy 22:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
There is disagreement in an AfD discussion about whether the small business magazine Masigasig is a reliable source. In the case that we are looking at, it contains an in-depth article (pages 9–10) about a company, written by an freelance writer. It does not appear to be a reprint of a press release, although it does rely heavily on quotes from an employee. Any advice? Wronkiew ( talk) 22:49, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Is AccessMyLibrary.com an RS? And can Web.archive.org be used as a source when a source turns dead? Shahid • Talk2me 18:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
A news story from this publication is being used in biography of Gilad Atzmon. Two questions:
In this article, there has been a challenge as to whether testimony from a certain FBI informant is a reliable source. The informant, Larry Grathwohl, testified before the U.S. Senate in 1974, wrote a book in 1976, and appeared in a television documentary in 1982. I know of no one who has challenged his credibility. This seems like a slam dunk to me, but I would like to have additional opinions on the matter, as the facts have been clouded by politics. Informal mediation has gotten us no where in resolving the dispute. Thank you in advance for your help. Freedom Fan ( talk) 22:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
In a recent AfD discussion, when I pointed out that an "online technical forum" is not the same as a blog, another editor immediately linked "online technical forum" to " online forum" and said it "absolutely is in the same - unacceptable - category as a blog. This is policy", and then he pointed me (paradoxically) directly to Verifiabilty SPS, where it specifically says "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." In this particular instance the tech forum (archive of paper magazines) being quoted was over 20 years old and ones that took place between established and published experts in the field being discussed. So I wish clarification on this issue. Are 20-year-old technical forums between field experts, ALL "blogs" as this other editor asserts, or do they sometimes fall within the "some circumstances" caveat of Verifiabilty SPS Thank you, Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 19:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm having a dispute over a source used in the articles Wolfberry and Boxthorn. The book is published by BookSurge, a self-publishing house. It is used to source a section on the nutrient content of the berry, and is also but in the general bibliography. This book fails WP:V in my opinion, but not in the opinion of two other editors (one editor of the article, and one who arrived through a requested third opinion). However, I see nothing in their answers that indicates that this book is indeed a reliable source, only philosphical replies and unsourced statements. The book is not reviewed anywhere, not used as a source in any other reliable book or paper. The author is recognised as an expert on strokes and brain capillaries, not on the nutritional content of berries. Could people here either clearly explain to me why this book is a reliable source anyway, or head over to Talk:Wolfberry and explain things better than I am obvisouly able to do?
Gross, Paul M.; Xiaoping Zhang; and Richard Zhang (2006). Wolfberry: Nature's Bounty of Nutrition & Health. Charleston, South Carolina, United States: BookSurge Publishing. ISBN 1419620487. ISBN 9781419620485. Google Scholar [11], Google Books [12], Google [13]
Thanks. Fram ( talk) 15:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I have a question. Can certain sources that are considered reliable for one topic not be considered reliable for other topics. For instance, during the 2008 South Ossetian War, places such as CNN and NYT were going to say how Russia is returning as a superpower. But these are journalists, who have no formal education in the field of International relations. But then you look at the people who have an education and degree in International Relations, like Fareed Zakaria [15], Richard Haass [16] are just some examples, and both are well known in the field of International relations. So in this case, would the people who are considered experts in the field of International relations be considered reliable sources of what's considered a superpower over journalists, unless there was a specific article written by an expert in International Relations like this one [17], which is written by Parag Khanna, another expert in the field of International Relations? If the word of experts is to be considered over journalists, would this fall under the same for scientists like those with a degree in Physics saying what something like it the world won't get destroyed if they did a experiment, over journalists who would be saying that the world will get destroyed. Would we take the word of experts over the journalists instead? Thanks. Deavenger ( talk) 23:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I'd like to hear some thoughts on http://io9.com/ as a RS for a game review. Thanks! Hobit ( talk) 12:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Anyone else? Hobit ( talk) 18:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Anyone know if Haworth Press is a reliable publisher? Is their discontinued title Journal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome reliable? The editorial board info page is empty though in previous volumes it appeared to be quite extensive. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 13:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Would this webposting [19] be considered a reliable source by Wikipedia? Thank you.-- Slp1 ( talk) 00:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
The author of the paraphrased information is not Garret Luttrell. The author of the paraphrased statement was Glenn Sacks, a notable leader of the fathers' rights movement. The statement can be included with proper attribution. Michael H 34 ( talk) 15:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
I take back my assertion. I checked and I believe that Garret Lutrell is the author paraphrased statement. Michael H 34 ( talk) 19:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
I've been using [20] as a source for some of the articles I am working on, but in a peer review, someone posed a question about the site's reliability. I have found the site to be reliable myself, but can anyone else care to comment on the source? ThePointblank ( talk) 03:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
An editor has questioned the reliability of About.com as a reference in a peer review for list of awards and nominations received by Chris Brown. The sources that link to About.com are lists of award ceremonies, the nominations and winners. Would it be appropriate to keep About.com as a reliable source for this? DiverseMentality (Boo!) 03:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
So in this case, I'm assuming it's reliable, correct? DiverseMentality (Boo!) 21:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I would've added the links, but I was in class. Anywho, if the source only lists nominees and winners, and the writer doesn't put his/her two cents in, what's so unreliable about it? Aside from About.com, it's difficult to find reliable sources that list the nominees and winners (you should have seen the amount of time it took me to find a reliable source for the rest of them). DiverseMentality (Boo!) 02:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
The reliability of this reference was doubted at Vithoba FAC (closed). I had provided the following reasons why it is a RS, does this prove it is a RS?
-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 13:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia's collective ethos requires decent editors to spend time on this talk page to discuss how dated peerage sources compare with modern professional academic publications. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 16:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm getting a little tired of this one. We have a whole slew of templates for citing IMDb, and IMDb is cited, probably over a million times, in Wikipedia. Yet I keep running into people asserting (twice with regard to Rudolf Wanderone, for example, once on its talk page, once on its 2nd peer review page) that IMDb isn't a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. This really needs to get settled. Maybe have a referendum on this issue ( WP:RFC?), or whatever it takes, and either declare it a non-reliable source categorically or clarify the guideline that sites like this can be reliable for some things (titles, release dates, other basic information) and non-reliable for others (movie trivia, mostly contributed by readers). If it is deemed wholly unreliable, then we need to immediately TfD the IMDb templates and set up bots to remove (or, as with deleted images, comment out) IMDb citations that use them. This hemming and hawing on the issue, and ensuing general confusion, is making the WP:PR, WP:GA and WP:FA/ WP:FL processes much more painful than is necessary. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm GA-reviewing Flip-flop (politics) and am not sure whether FactCheck.org's Bush Ad Twists Kerry's Words on Iraq is a WP:RS. Can anyone help? -- Philcha ( talk) 10:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Are Quackwatch and Skeptic Report articles considered suitable sources for articles on pseudosciences? Fainites barley 23:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Would this be a reliable source for an article I am working on?
The reliability of this ref was doubted at Vithoba FAC. I gave the following reasons. Does it prove it is a RS?
-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 11:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
These organisations sponsor numerous awards and publications - Top 100 Writers, 2000 Outstanding Intellectuals of the 21st Century, International Man/Woman of the Year etc etc. According to the relevant wikipedia articles, and plenty of sources on the web, the publications by these organisations are (depending on your viewpoint) either scams or vanity publications (they also appear to be part owned by a rather dubious character). They seem, in short, entirely unreliable sources. However there are several dozen wikipedia articles which cite these "awards" see - [38] or [39]
Before I go through and systematically delete these citations, I wanted to check that others agree they are inappropriate! LeContexte ( talk) 16:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Thought I'd throw these in here for good measure. With regards using the below to cite "cultural references" in the article on South Park episode The China Probrem;
My thoughts were;
Southparkstuff is a fan site, Southparkstudios is the actual producers site for the show. Only the latter is the word of the creators, the former is fan opinion.
A blog, no quotes from the creators of the show.
Just another blog, even if it is featured in a newspaper website. No reference to having spoken to the creators of the show.
Southpark wikia is just another wiki, citing it is as good as citing another unreferenced wikipedia article. Copy their references by all means (if they have any), but remember they're subject to the rules about verifiability here too.
Alastairward ( talk) 23:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Justice Tawai Modibo Ocran died on October 27,2008 and not March 27, 2008 as reported on your website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.30.81.2 ( talk • contribs)
Could people here please look at Labor theory of value, and in particular at its external links section? Robert Vienneau's LTV FAQ and so forth seem like "some guys with websites" to me. — the Ghost of Adrian Mineha! hold seance at 09:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
One of the "guys with a website" keeps restoring the links when they are removed. [40] [41] After the second time, he gave an argument on the talk page, mostly that he thinks that the websites are good work and the article lacks things that they have. — the Ghost of Adrian Mineha! hold seance at 08:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Can we have more yes here, please? — the Ghost of Adrian Mineha! hold seance at 05:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Marjoe Gortner was a prominent child preacher known for his revival meetings and broadcasts. When he became an adult, and was in the process of leaving the field, he was the subject of an Oscar-winning, behind-the-scenes documentary. A couple of years later, 13-year-old Prem Rawat came to the United States and became known as the "boy guru". Meanwhile, to compete with Penthouse, Playboy launched Oui, which Time magazine described as having a "rambunctious editorial slant with uninhibited nudes pictured in the Penthouse mood." In 1973 Oui hired Marjoe to cover Millennium '73, a festival held at the Astrodome by Prem Rawat's mission, and which was promoted as the "most significant event in human history". Presumably the editors at Oui thought it would be clever to have a former boy preacher write about a contemporary boy guru.
A notable former follower later wrote a memoir in which she contrasted the two figures, "it is easy to assume that Maharaj Ji is just another Marjoe, bullied into preaching by his parents." Marjoe was enough of a celebrity that three journalists reported he was covering the event for Oui, and one of them interviewed him briefly. Those four sources directly establish the significance of Marjoe's viewpoint.
Millennium '73 uses two citations from Marjoe's article in Oui. One reference is to estimate the size of the crowd. There are a dozen source for the attendance but he alone estimates the change in audience from the first to the second day. As someone who had supported himself by organizing and addressing religious meetings, Gortner was used to estimating crowd sizes. The second use is for an attributed view. Four journalists expressed similar views, but he makes a unique point. Although it's just his point of view, his assessment of the audience's behavior was based on a lifetime of being in front of crowds of frenzied worshipers. Both of these citations were deleted by an editor, with the note "Not RS". [42] Is an article written by Gortner for Oui a reliable source for Gortner's views? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, folks, but look at the context:
Basically there are other reputable sources on the event attendance, and the article will not suffer from not having this source being mentioned. One of the quotes from this author, used in the article, was a mention of an announcement made at that event: You will sit in your assigned places, please What is the use of that stupid comment in an encyclopedic article? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
First a correction: it turns out the Marjoe article is used for four assertions in the article. Here is a list of each citation, as they'd been in the article last week. I've bolded the parts that are cited to Marjoe (I could fill in the cites but they can also be checked at the actual article.):
Only the last one is a real point of view, and if he were the only one saying it then it'd be different. But we have five independent sources making essentially the same assertion. As I wrote above, Gortner was accustomed to being in front of large audiences filled with frenzied worshipers and so he was capable of assessing the mood of the audience. Gortner does make some general observations about Prem Rawat. Those might be more suitable in the article on that person. I don't see any need to include the title of the Marjoe article, "Who Was Maharaj Ji? The world's most overweight midget", when it's cited. We don't do that for any other source, and it's well-known that editors, not writers, compose headlines. It appears to have been added to impeach the source. Like all citations, the article name is easily accessible in the reference section.
·:·
Will Beback
·:· 08:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Also: I don't see any BLP component here. None of these four assertions (appearance of a stage, a notice on the signboard, the size of the crowd, and the actions of the crowd) concern any identifiable living person.
·:·
Will Beback
·:· 09:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
This may already be asked and answered. If so, please provide a link. In the meantime, is the Southern Poverty Law Center a reliable source for labeling groups as "hate" groups? Yes, the definition of "hate" is an issue, but set that aside for now. For example, some wiki pages about certain organizations say the groups are "hate" groups and cite to the SPLC for a reliable source. Is this concordant with Wikipedia policy?
As to the definition of a "hate" group, is that defined by the SPLC? Is the SPLC's definition actually used on Wikipedia?
Thank you. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 23:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I was here a little while ago, [47]
Anyway. I've been working on the Potential Superpower pages. There, we're trying to get reliable sources for the page, (though, it's really hard when lots of IPs are trying to push their view and argue with us using news article when it discusses very little on the subject, and wikipedia policy states to use academic sources on topics like this).
Recently, I got two books that might help, [48] and [49]. But the problem is, Potential Superpower falls under the subject of International Relations/Political Science/Geopolitics. The authors of these two books from what I can tell are journalists, and don't have a degree in International Relations/Political Science/Geopolitics. Deavenger ( talk) 22:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Is a newspaper article, published by the Herald Sun in 2004 considered to be a verifiable source, even if copies of the article are not available for free on the web, but must be obtained via electronic newspaper archives such as Factiva or a trip to the library? -- Slp1 ( talk) 00:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Is Express Milwaukee [55] considered a reliable source, specifically for classifying a band's genre, and also when the exact author of the article in question is unknown? Prophaniti ( talk) 19:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
So general view would be that they can be used, but are iffy? Even taking into account that this particular article is anonymous? Prophaniti ( talk) 19:05, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know if this is considered to be a reliable source, as it is being used on a controversial article. Likewise, this book is also being used The B-Specials: A History of the Ulster Special Constabulary (1972) Sir Arthur Hazlett ISBN 0854682724. The reason I ask is according to the Telegraph The article states "Hezlet was commissioned to write a history of the Northern Irish police. However The "B" Specials, a History of the Ulster Special Constabulary (1972) was later dismissed as merely a defence of policing in the province." The commission was from the "B" Specials commanding officer. Thanks for the help, and advice, -- Domer48 'fenian' 17:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that, very helpful indeed. -- Domer48 'fenian' 20:42, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Answers.com includes content from 3rd-party publications, including various encyclopedias. Here are two examples.
Do any editors have any experience with the reliability of this hosted content? In other words, can we rely on Answers.com to quote the exact content of the encyclopedias concerned? The encyclopedias themselves are undoubtedly reliable sources. But verifying that what Answers.com hosts is exactly the same as the source given, without additions or deletions, is often a bit tricky. Some of these encyclopedias cost several hundred dollars to buy or are currently unavailable, plus Answers.com does not always make it clear which edition of the encyclopedia it is quoting. Any thoughts? Jayen 466 16:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
A newspaper from Taiwan has recently had it's reliability questioned based on an allegation (so far not backed up with any evidence) that the newspaper is partially funded by one of the political parties. The editor making the allegation has stated that according to Wikipedia rules, it is up to the person including a statement to "prove that the relevant sources are reliable and unbiased".
Is this true, that the person wishing to include the statement must "prove" the reliability and neutrality of the source?
If such proof is required, what is the standard of proof? And how does one go about proving such a thing? The article on Reliable sources provides the Washington Post as an example of a source whose input is welcome, yet plenty of people, including myself, dispute the "unbiased" nature of the Washington Post (I believe the post is pretty reliable on facts, but is not unbiased). Readin ( talk) 02:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add that, I am the editor who opposes the source being used. In this case, Readin extracted some statements from an article of a pro-independence leaning newspaper, reporting opinions of some pro-independence leaning experts "condemning" Taiwan's new pro-unification government of "serious violation of the rule of law and human rights abuse". As Taiwan is commonly considered to be democratic, I would consider these opinions as exceptional claims and the quality of the sources isn't high enough to justify these claims. No other newspapers in my knowledge have reported on these opinions.-- pyl ( talk) 07:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
In February 2008 experts on Taiwan from the US, Canada and Australia issued a joint statement condemning a wave of detentions of present and former Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) officials by the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) government of President Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九), calling them a serious violation of the rule of law and human rights.
<ref>{{cite news | last = Snyder | first = Charles | title = Experts on Taiwan slam recent detentions | publisher = Taipei Times | date = 06 November 2008 | url = http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/11/06/2003427868 | accessdate = 06 November 2008}} </ref>
Nothing in the rules says "if the entire newspaper fails as a reliable source, we can't use it for much of anything". The reliability of sources are decided on a case by case basis. Also, whether I agree with the POV of this report is beside the point. I have issues with this particular source being in this particular context because it fails Wikipedia's requirements. I will quote the relevant section of the rules so we can just focus on it. Under WP:REDFLAG, it says:-
As I pointed out above, as Taiwan is generally considered to be democratic, having an article taken from a newspaper reporting on a couple of experts "condemning" the government and calling the government's action "a serious violation of the rule of law and human rights" will be an exceptional claim according to my highlight section of the rules. To make the material available on Wikipedia, it will thus require high quality sources. As we have all agreed Taipei Times is a biased source against the government: It is a partly opposition owned newspaper, always reporting the opposition's POV. Some of these "experts" are biased if you check the credentials.
Further, this report is exaggerated. If you read the original text of the joint statement, it says "serious concerns", not "condemn". The statement never called the government's actions "a serious violation of the rule of law and human rights". Instead it says, "the procedures followed by the prosecutor’s offices are severely flawed", "This is a severe contravention of the writ of habeas corpus and a basic violation of due process, justice and the rule of law". In respect of human rights, it says "[w]e do firmly believe that any alleged wrongdoings must be dealt with in a fair and open manner in an impartial court. Justice through the rule of law is essential to Taiwan’s efforts to consolidate democracy and protect fundamental human rights". These "experts" never directly or indirectly described the government's actions as a serious violation of human rights. This fails Wikipedia's NPOV requirement as well as WP:SOURCES. The report does not "substantiate material within articles".
WP:SOURCES also says:-
This is a single POV taken in a biased newspaper reporting the opinions of a couple of biased people in an exaggerated manner. There are no opposing POVs being reported.
I am not saying that this story cannot be used for Wikipedia at all. That's another issue. But in this case on the reliable sources board, we are concerned with whether the sources cited are reliable. In this case, I am saying this source violates the Wikipedia rules which I cited above.
WP:BURDEN also says:-
Readin should be the person who establishes the sources are reliable. I shouldn't be the person who bears the onus of proof. The starting position should be, now the reliability is challenged, Readin should prove with evidence and show that the sources are reliable. At this stage, I do not see any evidence being shown.-- pyl ( talk) 01:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
"It is a partly opposition owned newspaper". This is plausible, but I still would like to see some evidence for this claim. Readin ( talk) 15:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
"condemning" the government and calling the government's action "a serious violation of the rule of law and human rights". Even before checking this page I recognized that the wording needed some fixing for NPOV concerns, and the statement in the article on Ma Ying-jeou has been modified.
"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."
This is actually my biggest concern. What standard of evidence is to be used?
User:Metropolitan90 has valid concerns about the NPOV of the statement due to lack of response from the government/KMT. As I said earlier, we should address those on the talk:Ma Ying-jeou page. Readin ( talk) 15:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The burden of proof that you cite is referring for the need for reliable sources. It says that the editor adding the data has the burden of providing a reliable source. It doesn't directly say that the editor has the burden of proving the source is reliable. I believe that in trying to apply that you are engaging in wp:wikilawyering, specifically
I'll ask at the wp:burden discussion page how to apply the "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation" statement." Although the footnote given at that page, "When content in Wikipedia requires direct substantiation, the established convention is to provide an inline citation to the supporting references. The rationale is that this provides the most direct means to verify whether the content is consistent with the references. Alternative conventions exist, and are acceptable if they provide clear and precise attribution for the article's assertions, but inline citations are considered 'best practice' under this rationale. For more details, please consult Wikipedia:Citing_sources#How to cite sources." seems to reinforce the idea that the burden is met by providing the citation, not that the editor has to also prove the source is reliable. Readin ( talk) 18:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Now I have shown that Liberty Times/Taipei Times is biased. Please let us know why Taipei Times is a reliable source? Why is Taipei Times a high quality source?-- pyl ( talk) 00:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Another quick question: could this [58] be used as a RS on Avenged Sevenfold's genre? My inclination would be towards no. It does have writers staff, but there's nothing to indicate whether the writer (in this case certainly) is any kind of expert, qualified or otherwise, and the very tone of the site (as seen here [59] outlining what they look for in their writers) doesn't exactly sound encouraging. But what do others say? Prophaniti ( talk) 19:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography#Reliable sources over the reliability of commonly used sources in porn star articles, such as AInews.com, XBiz.com, Rogreviews.com and XFanz.com. The WikiProject really needs some outside views on this. Thanks. Epbr123 ( talk) 00:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Full discussion here, short summary: a person's works (a book) is cited by several reliable scholars. It is however hard to find out any information about the person itself - we can't find out if he has any academic credentials, or any significant facts from his bio. Can this person (his works/books) be considered reliable? One one side he is, after all, cited by reliable scholars who presumably did their research. On the other - other than him being an author of some books and articles, and a website, we know nothing about him. Is he reliable? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that "Jam Base" is getting used a lot for citations here on Wikipedia in order to either show "Significant Coverage" or to verify facts. At first glance it seems ok but per Wikipedia policy on Self-published sources it seems to fall under open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources that are largely not acceptable. It is a combination of a social networking site and a fanzine/blog where fans of Jam Music can create an account and post stories either in a "article" form or in a "journal" form. From the sites "About Us" page it says, in part, "Established in 1998, JamBase has grown into a community of passionate live music fans over half a million strong." and "JamBase works closely with leading concert promoters and record labels like Live Nation, AEG-Live, Warner Brothers Records and Universal Records. Equally important is working closely with the best independent promoters, venues and labels worldwide." The FAQ section has information that points toward the "open wiki" scenario with answers such as "Since JamBase relies on user-generated content, no one person has control of artist pages. All of our users can submit content as long as they have a My JamBase account". This seems along the lines of the Wikipedia:Ownership of articles Policy. Soundvisions1 ( talk) 12:51, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, I cannot see how the book
Roman Catholicism: The Basics, by Michael Walsh can be considered a reliable source for the statement in the article
Roman Catholic Church: "In common usage 'catholic' refers to the body also known as Roman Catholic Church". On page 18, that book says: "'Catholic' is regularly also used in opposition to 'Protestant', and it is used also in opposition to the term 'Orthodox' ... In common usage, however, the matter is not quite so straightforward. ..." To me the book seems to disagree with the statement in support of which it is cited. But
User:NancyHeise affirms that the citation is valid support for the statement, and that a consensus declares it to be so. Am I indeed wrong? Note that I am not questioning the statement, but only the use of this source as support for it. It may well be that I am putting this question in the wrong place. If I am, please forgive me, and let me know where I should post it.
Soidi (
talk) 21:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC) Reasoning dialogue, rather than mere declarations that the matter is already settled, has begun. The problem is solved.
Soidi (
talk) 20:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Please see [60] - this paper has not yet been published although I expect it will be published. My point is that it might be changed before publication, and we should not use pre-publication papers. (This article is extremely hard to edit if you are not a fan of the subject, by the way). Comments? Thanks. dougweller ( talk) 06:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A brief question, should WorldNetDaily be used as RS? Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 12:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, is this a reliable source? If not can anyone suggest an alternative? Ϣere Spiel Chequers 07:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
How reliable is Linux.com? See usage in the OpenOffice.org Writer article. -- Joshua Issac ( talk) 19:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
There's some confusion about linux.com. Basically, they have a professional core editorial team, and they accept two types of submissions:
The latter can be considered quite reliable, as they are subject to a normal editorial process, and are not significantly different from other sites that publish articles from freelance writers/journalists, e.g. IBM developerworks, although the latter doesn't always pay a fee.
I have no idea about the Php site. VG ☎ 01:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a section near the bottom of the article on John Wilkes Booth called Booth Escaped Theories that has citations that do not meet wikipedias guidlines on verifiability. Although there are citations, the authors are very suspect and caution should be used in adding this particular theory as it does not meet wikipedias policies on Fringe theories nor weight as well. I have been attempting to add a refimprove tag to the section, but one editor has removed the tag twice. Of the three citations that support the theory, the oldest, The Escape and Suicide of John Wilkes Booth, is based on a death bed confession that only the author heard. The author heard the confession, then toured the country making money off of displaying the mummified remains. He only wrote the book, to support his claim. The next citation, The Lincoln Conspiracy was written by a movie producer who wanted to promote a movie he was making in the 70's. This same producer has also produced movies called The Search for Heaven, Encounters with the Unexplained, The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark, and Uncovering the Truth About Jesus. The third citation by a man named Theodore Nottingham, claiming to be a decendant of Booth and is based on information his grandfather told him. And not much more.
These authors hardly have a reputation for fact finding. With the verifiability problem, added to the problems of WP:Weight and WP:Fringe, this entire section needs to go, but I can't handle a stubborn editor who refuses to let me even add the refimprove tag. What do I do.-- Jojhutton ( talk) 00:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
An article by Alexander Litvinenko published by Chechenpress is being used in the Litvinenko article to engage in speculation by Litvinenko that Putin is a paedophile. I have removed the comments from the article, due to reasons which I have explained here and here. As I have explained in detail who Chechenpress is and who is behind it, it needs to be ascertained whether they can be regarded as a reliable source for purposes of WP, particularly when it involves a real, BLP issue. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 07:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Mosmof as a user and a few others are intent on destroying the bio of Ronn Torossian, a living person, and his firm 5W Public Relations. They abritarily say blogs arent reliable (when it comes to Sundance major celebrity events) and the richest man in Europe who 5WPR represents. When it comes to obscure Jewish issues, they cite bloggers endlessly. Pls. help and intervene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.103.203.218 ( talk • contribs) 22:43, November 9, 2008
Mosmof is the same person who on 5W page removed consistent sourcing from blogs, including that of the largest newspaper in the Ukraine, and E Entertainment. What is not inconsistent in that matter ? Goldberg is a political pundit, very far on the extreme left vis a vis Israel and wasnt under Atlantic Monthly's auspicies. That said, would one publish what Artutz 7 (a right leaning Israeli blog) publishes re Ronn ? -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.103.203.218 ( talk
guardian.co.uk is a reliable source. Are posts on guardian.co.uk blog by Tom Service ( home) such as this one also reliable? It is a blog, but published by a reliable source. Is it a usable source?-- LYKANTROP ✉ 23:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. Where a news organization publishes the opinions of a professional but claims no responsibility for the opinions, the writer of the cited piece should be attributed (e.g., "Jane Smith has suggested ..."). Posts left by readers may never be used as sources.
Tom Service was born in 1976 in Glasgow. He studied music at the University of York, took a Masters at the University of Southampton, and completed a doctorate there on the music of John Zorn. He writes about music for the Guardian, and is a regular contributor to the BBC Music Magazine, Opera, and Tempo. His articles have appeared in books and music dictionaries, and in journals in France and Germany. He teaches at Trinity College of Music, and has given pre-concert talks and written programme notes for many of the festivals, orchestras, and opera companies in the UK. He began broadcasting on Radio 3 on Hear and Now in 2001, becoming one of the show's regular presenters, and has presented Music Matters since the autumn of 2003.
To the extent permitted at law, we do not accept any responsibility for any statement in the material. You must not rely on any statement we have published on guardian.co.uk without first taking specialist professional advice. Nothing in the material is provided for any specific purpose or at the request of any particular person
Would the Flags of the World website be considered a reliable source? They list an editorial staff, display an ISSN identifier here, and feature an extensive bibliography section. I have used this website in an article that is currently a featured article candidate and the reliability of the source has been questioned. Thanks in advance. — Bellhalla ( talk) 02:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate wider community input on the permissibility of using self-published sources in the Rick Ross (consultant) article, specificially the section covering Mr Ross's involvement as a BATF and FBI consultant in the Waco Branch Davidian standoff. The self-published sources concerned are (1) a letter Mr Ross states he wrote as a rebuttal of assertions in a Department of Justice report, and (2) a critique by Mr Ross of various websites and scholars that have published criticism about him.
I provide some background below, for those editors who are not familiar with the history.
Jayen466 failed to mention an edit he did. The original text read "Nancy Ammerman insisted the FBI relied too much on Ross, a view which is not shared by the other three experts reporting to the Justice department." Out of 4 experts reporting to the Justice Department only Ammerman mentioned me as an issue. The others did not. She stood alone, 1 out of 4 experts, in her opinions about my role at Waco. None of the other 4 experts thought my involvement was noteworthy enough to even mention. Jayen466 knows this and he cut it out. This is an example of the way he has contrived to project his POV through editing.
Ammerman had her own political agenda regarding the issue of "cults," which she prefers to call "new religious movmentts." She and a relatively small group of academics attempted to use Waco as a means of discrediting those that disagreed with their opinions about cults and the potential dangers they often pose for society. These few academics tried to spin Waco to their ideological and professional advantage. But the facts about David Koresh and the Waco Davidians, as they were disclosed historically through two congressional investigations (one Republican and one by Democrats), the independent Danforth investigation, criminal trials, civil trials and the work of mental health professionals with Davidian children and others, discredited this group of academics. Ammerman and the other academics Jayen466 chose to quote would seemingly have us believe (1) David Koresh was not "a dangerous cult leader" (2) the Waco Davidians did not fit "the generalized pattern of a destructive cult." These are neither credible conclusions or reliable opinions given the facts established repeatedly and objectively about Waco historically. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 20:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
A 1993 Department of Justice report to the US Attorney General stated the following concerning Mr Ross's involvement in the Waco standoff:
The FBI did not solicit advice from any "cult experts" or "cult deprogrammers." The FBI did receive a number of unsolicited offers of assistance from former Branch Davidian member Marc Breault (who has since published a paperback book about Koresh and the Branch Davidians). The FBI also received input from two self-described cult experts, Rick Ross (who moved to a hotel in Dallas, and later to Waco, during the standoff and appeared on local television programs, as well as the CNN broadcast of March 10 that upset Dr. Dietz) ... Ross contacted the FBI on March 4, 1993 and requested that he be interviewed regarding his knowledge of cults in general and the Branch Davidians in particular. Ross said that he had been familiar with the Branch Davidians for several years, and had known several former Davidians. Ross provided information about Koresh to the Waco Tribune Herald for its series about the Branch Davidians. Ross also had been in contact with Steve Schneider's sister, who had asked him to help devise a strategy to "deprogram" Schneider. The ATF also contacted Ross in January 1993 for information about Koresh. Ross also telephoned the FBI on March 27 and March 28, offering advice about negotiation strategies. Ross suggested that the FBI attempt to embarrass Koresh by informing other members of the compound about Koresh's faults and failures in life, in order to convince them that Koresh was not the prophet they had been led to believe. The FBI did not "rely" on Ross for advice whatsoever during the standoff. The FBI interviewed Ross only at Ross' request, and politely declined his unsolicited offers of assistance throughout the standoff. The FBI treated the information Ross supplied as it would any other unsolicited information received from the public: it evaluated the credibility of the information and treated it accordingly.
Following the Waco tragedy, the US government commissioned reports from four scholars tasked with writing critical appraisals of law enforcement actions in the Waco siege. All four of these scholars criticised the authorities for failing to consult religious experts familiar with the belief system of the Branch Davidians. Nancy Ammerman, a professor of sociology of religion at Boston University, discussed Mr Ross's involvement specifically in her September 1993 report to the Treasury and Justice Departments:
Mr. Rick Ross, who often works in conjunction with the Cult Awareness Network (CAN), has been quoted as saying that he was "consulted" by the BATF. My suspicion is that he was merely one among many the BATF interviewed in its background checks on the group and on Koresh. However, it is unclear how information gained from him was evaluated. The Network and Mr. Ross have a direct ideological (and financial) interest in arousing suspicion and antagonism against what they call "cults". These same persons seem to have been major sources for the series of stories run by the Waco newspaper, beginning February 27. It seems clear that people within the "anti-cult" community had targeted the Branch Davidians for attention. Although these people often call themselves "cult experts," they are certainly not recognized as such by the academic community. The activities of the CAN are seen by the National Council of Churches (among others) as a danger to religious liberty, and deprogramming tactics have been increasingly found to fall outside the law. At the very least, Mr. Ross and any ex-members he was associated with should have been seen as questionable sources of information. Having no access to information from the larger social science community, however, BATF had no way to put in perspective what they may have heard from angry ex-members and eager deprogrammers.
[A week later, having received additional documentation, Ammerman provided an addendum in which she corrected some of the above suppositions:] The interview transcripts document that Mr. Rick Ross was, in fact, closely involved with both the ATF and the FBI. He supplied ATF with "all information he had regarding the Branch Davidian cult," including the name of an ex-member he believed would have important strategic information. He also supplied information to the Waco newspaper and talked with the FBI both in early March and in late March. He clearly had the most extensive access to both agencies of any person on the "cult expert" list, and he was apparently listened to more attentively. The ATF interviewed the persons he directed them to and evidently used information from those interviews in planning their February 28 raid. In late March, Ross recommended that agents attempt to publicly humiliate Koresh, hoping to drive a wedge between him and his followers. While Ross's suggestions may not have been followed to the letter, such embarrassment tactics were indeed tried.
The FBI interview report includes the note that Ross "has a personal hatred for all religious cults" and would willingly aid law enforcement in an attempt to "destroy a cult." The FBI report does not include any mention of the numerous legal challenges to the tactics employed by Mr. Ross in extricating members from the groups he hates.
Both the seriousness with which agents treated Ross and the lack of seriousness with which they treated various theologians demonstrate again the inability of agents on the scene to make informed judgements about the information to which they had access and their inability to seek out better information. It also demonstrates the preference given to anti-cult psychological tactics over strategies that would meet the group on grounds that took faith seriously.
As can be seen, Ammerman attributes a more significant role to Mr Ross than the official Department of Justice report to the Attorney General. To that extent, she is in agreement with Mr Ross, who claims in his letter that the FBI approached him for advice.
I have over the past few weeks significantly revised the Rick Ross (consultant) article. While the disputed question concerning the extent of Mr Ross's involvement was discussed in previous versions of this article section, the present version does not raise this issue. Here are the old and new versions, for comparison:
Mr Ross has posted on the talk page of the article, expressing disappointment with the changes, and has several times sought a return to the version of a month ago, including the statements from his self-published sources. In order to accommodate his wish to have content from these self-published sources reinstated, we have to look at whether their use would be in line with our policies and guidelines, which is where I would appreciate editors' input.
The self-published sources are located on Mr Ross's website, rickross.com. They are the following:
Given their status as self-published sources, their eligibility for use falls under WP:SPS and WP:SELFQUEST. WP:SPS and WP:SELFQUEST state, among other things:
Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources.
Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
1. the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject being discussed;
2. it is not contentious;
3. it is not unduly self-serving;
4. it does not involve claims about third parties;
5. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
6. there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it;
7. the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Editors may well wish to assess each of the two sources differently. I suggest therefore that editors comment in the two separate Comments subsections available at the very end of this post, outlining their thoughts on each.
The first of these sources is a letter by Mr Ross to the Attorney General and various cc recipients. No one to date has asserted that it has been published by a third-party source, and as far as I know, it is only available on rickross.com. It asserts, among other things, that the FBI did contact Ross for advice.
The question is, if we reintroduce the issue of the extent of Mr Ross's involvement (which would add considerably to the length of the section), should we incorporate this letter as an encyclopedic source, and if so, should we quote from it, or describe its content, or should we just include a mention that it exists, with a link in the reference?
Initially, my feeling was that this self-published source should not be used, as we don't usually cite personal correspondence unless published by a RS. In the interest of fairness, given that the facts as presented in the Department of Justice report are contradicted by both Mr Ross and Ammerman, I removed both the FBI assertions as to Mr Ross's more marginal role, i.e. having offered only unsolicited advice, and the rebuttal asserting a more substantial involvement sourced to this letter by Mr Ross. However, I would be interested in other editors' views, in particular the applicability of WP:SPS and WP:SELFQUEST to the use of this letter.
The "Flaming Web Sites" page (it also has a section on Wikipedia) has in the past been used to source the following content in the article, included after Wessinger's characterisation of Mr Ross as a "spurious self-styled expert[s]":
This rather long-winded "scholarly" review regarding media coverage of the Waco Davidian Standoff was written by cult apologist Catherine Wessinger. [...]. Ms. Wessinger snipes about "spurious self-styled experts" [...] getting too much media attention. The professor then stuffs her footnotes with what looks like a Scientologist's historical guide concerning my past. Could it be that she is angry that the press doesn't quote her more?
As I said, the reference to Wessinger's paper has been deleted (although a brief mention of a published book by her is still included), making this quote somewhat superfluous. However, apart from calling Catherine Wessinger a cult apologist, the Flaming Web Sites page also applies this label to the above-cited Nancy Ammerman, who was one of the government-appointed experts, as well as to Eileen Barker, James T. Richardson, Jeffrey K. Hadden, Gordon J. Melton, Anson Shupe, Massimo Introvigne, David Bromley and Dick Anthony. (For anyone not familiar with these names, they are some of the world's most prominent scholars in this field, with a long string of publications in peer-reviewed journals and books published by top university presses and academic publishers.)
In my estimation, the use of this self-published source to cast aspersions against these scholars is inappropriate as per WP:SPS ("Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources"), and inappropriate as per WP:SELFQUEST, specifically points 2 (contentious), 3 (unduly self-serving), 4 (involving claims about third parties), and possibly 5 (claims about events not directly related to the subject). It also fails WP:TONE.
Jayen has a conflict of interest as follows; (1) He is a devotee of a notorious guru, often called a "cult leader," by the name of Osho/Rajneesh. (2) Despite this bias he has become a primary editor at Wikipedia's Osho entry. His edits can be seen as essentially promoting the guru and subsequently the entry reads at times like an infomercial. (3) The Ross Institute Internet Archives, which is a nonprofit educational effort and an institutional member of the New Jersey Library Association, has an archive subsection about Osho/Rajaneesh that includes news reports from independent reliable media outlets that correctly reflects the guru's deeply troubled history. (4) Jayen466 has begun editing the entry about me in an apparent attempt to discredit online sources of critical information about Osho. If Jayen466 has in fact no association, personal interest or history with Osho/Rajneesh in any way, shape or form, perhaps he should make that clear right now, but that is my understanding. This represents a conflict of interest in my opinion. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 20:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Waco Branch Davidian subsection my comments appear below. Also, regarding the Jason Scott case. Admittedly Jayen466 is at times clever in parsing words and playing with edits, he knows how to play the political game here at Wikipedia. On the other hand I am not a Wikipedian. I am here as an individual because a bio about me that I didn't initiate or request has seemingly become a place for people angry at me and/or the Ross Institute to grind their ax. I am not included in any paper and ink encyclopedia that I am aware of anywhere and have requested that my bio be deleted from Wikipedia. It is sad that Wikipedia can be used this way by almost anyone anonymously editing an entry for the purpose of revenge or retaliation. The open source model has the potential to be both good and bad. In the interest of maintaining a reliable source of information with objective historical facts and accuracy, someone should reign in people like Jayen466. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 20:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
What do reliable independent sources say about it? If the content is written from primary sources - DoJ or Ross - then we may be violating multiple policies (V, BLP, UNDUE etc.) so I would step back and describe how the issue is presented in independent sources. Guy ( Help!) 11:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I have commented below regarding the bias and unreliable nature of the scholars Jayen466 has chosen to construct his POV in the Waco Davidian subsection, which isn't supported by the historical facts as gathered from multiple independent historical sources. Based upon the conflict of interest Jayen466 has as an editor concerning this entry he is not a reliable editor. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 20:11, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) To the extent other sources discuss Mr. Ross, he is entitled to rebut them with his own self-published sources, particularly in an article on him. This is the essential purpose of WP:SELFQUEST, which is there to enlarge the universe of sources, to modify the two sections above it that restrict the usage of selfpublished or questionable sources. ( I note this section is being modified and actively discussed at WP:V and has changed from the version above. ). This is in the spirit of, indeed essentially enjoined by WP:BLP. A person is a notable, usable source on himself. The question of reliability is not even appropriate. Reliability of Ross as a source begins to come up when he starts making claims about other persons or things which are distinguishable from "they are wrong about what they said about me, about what I said, did, where I was born, etc. This is what (I say) really happened." Ross calling someone an apologist is arguably a fact about him, not the other person. But his reasoning and facts that he bases such statements on probably does fall under illegitimate self-publication / questionability / reliability prohibitions; for even if his SPS were deemed reliable, it would not be good enough for BLP (of these other people).. John Z ( talk) 05:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
As above. Guy ( Help!) 11:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The article now reflects the POV of editor Jayen466, who is a person devoted to a notorious guru often called a cult leader named Osho/Rajneesh. That same guru has a critical archive subsection composed of news articles within the Ross Institute Internet Archives. So this complete re-editing represents a conflict of interest and the personal agenda of Jayen466. Having said that, the Waco section is now dominated by one POV without meaningful balance. That is, a relatively small group of academics known to be sympathetic to groups called "cults," which prefer to call them "new religious movements" (NRMs). The Waco subsection is now largely disconnected from reality, as established through government investigations, independent reports, court trials and records, eye witnesses that testified before congress and in cour and mental health professionals that treated Waco Davidian children and evaluated the erratic behavior of David Koresh. Specifically, history has concluded that David Koresh was a deeply disturbed psychopath and cult leader, and that the Waco Davidans were a destructive cult comparable and often listed with other destructive cults such as Jim Jones and Jonestown, another group that ended in a mass murder/suicide ordered by its leader. The "scholars" critical of me quoted in the current Wikipedia version edited by Jayen466 raise the issue that I "acting as an informant for government agencies and media journalists, was instrumental in establishing a simplified image of Koresh as a dangerous cult leader, using the generalized pattern of a destructive cult, and that [my] activities, along with those of apostates, significantly shaped the viewpoints of government parties acting in the case." Also called into question by these supposedly knowledgeable men is my "statements may be evaluated in the context of the financial and ideological stakes anticult workers...have in 'cultbusting.'" This is entire line of criticism patently ridiculous and raises serious questions about the entry and its current bias (1) are these scholars seriously positing the theory that David Koresh was not "a dangerous cult leader"? (2)That the Branch Davidians did not fit the "generalized pattern of a destructive cult"? The general historical consensus based upon the objective facts is that Koresh was a dangerous cult leader and the group did fit the generalized pattern of a destructive cult. Then these critics engage in name calling attempting to label me an "informant," which I was not, and rudely calling former members that came forward with testimony about the gross abuses within the cult "apostates." None of this belongs in an supposedly objective encyclopedia entry. Moreover the opinions of Nancy Ammerman were NOT shared by the three other experts reporting to the Justice Department, which was noted in the entry before Jayen466 edited this fact out. Specifically, the other reporting experts didn't even mention my role, let alone that I was somehow relied upon too much by the FBI. Ammerman who has been lauded for her opinions by the Church of Scientology in its publication "Freedom Magazine" and the other academics quoted such as Tabor, Wright and Lewis have been repeatedly recommended as "resources" or "experts" by Scientology. This has garnered them a reputation as "cult apologists." Moreover James Lewis who is quoted in the Waco section, once stupidly claimed that Aum, the notorious cult that gassed the Tokyo subway system, was not guilty and falsely accused. Aum paid for all of Lewis' travel expenses to come to Japan. Other scholars in the same camp ideologically as Lewis have also received financial funding, expenses etc. from groups called "cults." This calls into question "the financial and ideological stakes" they have regarding this subject. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 17:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The Jason Scott case entry has likewise been edited by Jayen466 to represent his POV. He uses edited comments from "jurors" that reportedly said, "prosecutors had not proved Ross participated in restraining Scott." In this way he hopes to minimize the "not guilty" verdict and narrow its scope, rather than admit that I was acquitted of all charges by a jury that only was out two hours. He wants readers to think I was escaped due a technicality, which is false and deliberately misleading. Jayen466 then goes on to attempt to present the POV that Jason Scott was subjected to "verbal abuse" in an effort to get him to "renounce his faith." This is based upon one-sided and very selective quoting of court testimony. Also, edited out significantly is the fact, which was previously included in the entry, that after Jason Scott settled the multi-million dollar judgment he had against me for only $5,000 and 200 hours of additional deprogramming time, the Scientology lawyer Jason fired (Kendrick Moxon) attempted to revoke the settlement on the grounds that Jason Scott was incompetent and unable to make decisions for himself. This is important because supposedly Moxon was fighting for Jason's right to make his own individual choices, which exposes the hypocrisy of the court case. Rick A. Ross ( talk)
Given the amount time Jayen466 devotes at Wikipedia to editing in a relatively narrow area of interest, i.e. Osho/Rajneesh, cults, cult critics and related subjecte it seems fair to ask the following question; Does he work for or derive any benefits from a group that has ever been referred to as a "cult" and/or someone that at any time has been called a "guru," spiritual mentor of some sort and/or "cult leader"? Again, this goes to his direct conflict of interest and bias as an editor. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 21:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
FinkeUpdate
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Gortner 1974
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Levine 1974
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Foss & Larkin
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Moritz 1974 p256
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).MacKaye 1973
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Kilday 11/9/73
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Gray 1973
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Kelley February 1974
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
Discussions relevant to this post can be found in various locations, but most recently on the BLP/N. User:Cirt is contending that Anson Shupe is not a reliable source for information on the Jason Scott case. The basis of this claim seems to be that one specific piece of information in a book of Shupe's, regarding the case, is inaccurate. It is unclear if Cirt thinks the particular book is an entirely unreliable source for anything or if s/he thinks Anson is an entirely unreliable source for any information on Rick Ross (consultant) or the Jason Scott case specifically. The relevant book is listed below:
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cite book}}
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ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)It has been suggested both on the BLP/N and on the various talk pages that Cirt has cross-posted his (un)reliability claim on [1], [2], [3] that he take the issue here. It has been my assertion that one inaccuracy does not make an otherwise reliable source unreliable, but clearly Cirt disagrees. A copy of Cirt's argument can be found here: Talk:Rick_Ross_(consultant)#Shupe_source_should_not_be_used. Any suggestions? I'm interested not only in this particular case but the precedent that following Cirt's logic would set more generally. Thanks. PelleSmith ( talk) 21:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
If we went by this, then in this case we'd have practically no sources left to use. There were two trials, one of criminal charges, the other, a civil suit.
Now, for the criminal trial and the basic matters of fact of the case:
Moving now from the criminal to the civil case:
That does not mean the "Phoenix New Times" and the "Seattle Times" are out as sources, because they got some facts wrong along the way. The proper method for dealing with such things is triangulation, and where a source is flatly contradicted by another,
As the editor mentioned repeatedly in this post by PelleSmith ( talk · contribs), I wish that I would have been informed at my talk page about this. Anson Shupe has repeatedly consulted with Church of Scientology lead attorney Kendrick Moxon, and he was a paid consultant during the Jason Scott case. This financial conflict of interest source should be avoided.
Jayen466 ( talk · contribs) used the Anson Shupe source to write that the criminal trial of Rick Ross (consultant) in the Jason Scott case resulted in a "hung jury" [4], [5]. This is a false statement. See this source (cited by Jayen466 himself for other info in the article and yet neglected in this instance) where it states: "On January 18, 1994, after just two hours of deliberations, a Greys Harbor jury acquitted Rick Ross of unlawful detainment."
The factual inaccuracy in the Anson Shupe source is much more significant - it is the main judgment in the criminal case involving Rick Ross (consultant), arguably one of the most important pieces of information in that entire section of the book - not simply a fact about whether someone was taken to a hotel or a beach-house. When this factual inaccuracy about such a crucial piece of information is taken into account - the most important piece of information in the case - coupled with the financial conflict of interest - we should really take care not to use this source, especially when we should have stricter standards about using sources in biographies of living persons. Cirt ( talk) 02:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Am I missing something? Regardless of the tone of the Shupe book, there seem to be plenty of definitely reliable sources that establish the following facts:
Is there any doubt about the factual accuracy of these statements? If not, is there any doubt about the relevance of these facts to the article in question? DaveApter ( talk) 16:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Rick_Ross_.28consultant.29. Jayen 466 16:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Kali#Origin -- please see the "origin" section for the kali article, I am uncertain how to sort this whole mess out. -- Kuzetsa ( talk) 16:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Should this picture be accepted without a confirming third party source? I never heard of "tens of thousands of Slovak children deported to Hungary for denationalization". Very controversial claim and this memorial raised by a government often linked to anti-Hungarian views is the only reference for this right now.
Squash Racket (
talk) 06:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for weighing in. Squash Racket ( talk) 06:33, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
DCEETA [6] "The US government position on the nature and classification of the site may have some merit, however the use of the source to articulate speculation was fairly explicit original research. The NYTs opinion on what the russians may or may not know is merely their opinion, using it to bolster the OR in the rest of the section is specious, to say the least. " so says user:ALR------- Dogue ( talk) 17:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
In the article Romani people national football team, this website is used as a reference. The website claims that several living persons (soccer players) are gypsies. Is this source sufficient for Wikipedia to make such a claim, or does the source fail Wikipedia:BLP#Reliable_sources? -- Kjetil r ( talk) 17:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The answer is no - BLP claims and Self-published = NOPE. --
Cameron Scott (
talk) 17:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
A number of biography pages have as a source and/or external link the (commercial) site BrainyQuote.com. The links generally take you to a page of quotes attributed to the person whose page had the link, but no citation information is given for the quotes. Is this a reliable source? Should it be present on all of the 200+ pages which currently link to it from special:search? (an example of it used as a reference: John Sexton (photographer))
Dialectric ( talk) 18:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I'm doing a GA review of Akshardham (Delhi), and a lot of the sources used are from travel agencies (like [7], [8], and [9], among others). Are these reliable? Thanks. Intothewoods29 ( talk) 19:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to clean up the page of List of best-selling music artists by tossing away the artists with unreliable sources. The artists on this page directly depend on sources which prove they've sold as many records the brackets indicate which the artists are place in. My question is about this source which claims that Oasis have sold more than 50 million records. Could we treat this source as reliable.-- Harout72 ( talk) 21:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Are review sites reliable sources for Wikipedia? I had always wondered about that... Like Amazon and all the other ones. I figured no because they just publish others opinions and summary, but can anyone give me a definite answer? Lady★ Galaxy 22:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
There is disagreement in an AfD discussion about whether the small business magazine Masigasig is a reliable source. In the case that we are looking at, it contains an in-depth article (pages 9–10) about a company, written by an freelance writer. It does not appear to be a reprint of a press release, although it does rely heavily on quotes from an employee. Any advice? Wronkiew ( talk) 22:49, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Is AccessMyLibrary.com an RS? And can Web.archive.org be used as a source when a source turns dead? Shahid • Talk2me 18:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
A news story from this publication is being used in biography of Gilad Atzmon. Two questions:
In this article, there has been a challenge as to whether testimony from a certain FBI informant is a reliable source. The informant, Larry Grathwohl, testified before the U.S. Senate in 1974, wrote a book in 1976, and appeared in a television documentary in 1982. I know of no one who has challenged his credibility. This seems like a slam dunk to me, but I would like to have additional opinions on the matter, as the facts have been clouded by politics. Informal mediation has gotten us no where in resolving the dispute. Thank you in advance for your help. Freedom Fan ( talk) 22:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
In a recent AfD discussion, when I pointed out that an "online technical forum" is not the same as a blog, another editor immediately linked "online technical forum" to " online forum" and said it "absolutely is in the same - unacceptable - category as a blog. This is policy", and then he pointed me (paradoxically) directly to Verifiabilty SPS, where it specifically says "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." In this particular instance the tech forum (archive of paper magazines) being quoted was over 20 years old and ones that took place between established and published experts in the field being discussed. So I wish clarification on this issue. Are 20-year-old technical forums between field experts, ALL "blogs" as this other editor asserts, or do they sometimes fall within the "some circumstances" caveat of Verifiabilty SPS Thank you, Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 19:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm having a dispute over a source used in the articles Wolfberry and Boxthorn. The book is published by BookSurge, a self-publishing house. It is used to source a section on the nutrient content of the berry, and is also but in the general bibliography. This book fails WP:V in my opinion, but not in the opinion of two other editors (one editor of the article, and one who arrived through a requested third opinion). However, I see nothing in their answers that indicates that this book is indeed a reliable source, only philosphical replies and unsourced statements. The book is not reviewed anywhere, not used as a source in any other reliable book or paper. The author is recognised as an expert on strokes and brain capillaries, not on the nutritional content of berries. Could people here either clearly explain to me why this book is a reliable source anyway, or head over to Talk:Wolfberry and explain things better than I am obvisouly able to do?
Gross, Paul M.; Xiaoping Zhang; and Richard Zhang (2006). Wolfberry: Nature's Bounty of Nutrition & Health. Charleston, South Carolina, United States: BookSurge Publishing. ISBN 1419620487. ISBN 9781419620485. Google Scholar [11], Google Books [12], Google [13]
Thanks. Fram ( talk) 15:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I have a question. Can certain sources that are considered reliable for one topic not be considered reliable for other topics. For instance, during the 2008 South Ossetian War, places such as CNN and NYT were going to say how Russia is returning as a superpower. But these are journalists, who have no formal education in the field of International relations. But then you look at the people who have an education and degree in International Relations, like Fareed Zakaria [15], Richard Haass [16] are just some examples, and both are well known in the field of International relations. So in this case, would the people who are considered experts in the field of International relations be considered reliable sources of what's considered a superpower over journalists, unless there was a specific article written by an expert in International Relations like this one [17], which is written by Parag Khanna, another expert in the field of International Relations? If the word of experts is to be considered over journalists, would this fall under the same for scientists like those with a degree in Physics saying what something like it the world won't get destroyed if they did a experiment, over journalists who would be saying that the world will get destroyed. Would we take the word of experts over the journalists instead? Thanks. Deavenger ( talk) 23:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I'd like to hear some thoughts on http://io9.com/ as a RS for a game review. Thanks! Hobit ( talk) 12:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Anyone else? Hobit ( talk) 18:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Anyone know if Haworth Press is a reliable publisher? Is their discontinued title Journal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome reliable? The editorial board info page is empty though in previous volumes it appeared to be quite extensive. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 13:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Would this webposting [19] be considered a reliable source by Wikipedia? Thank you.-- Slp1 ( talk) 00:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
The author of the paraphrased information is not Garret Luttrell. The author of the paraphrased statement was Glenn Sacks, a notable leader of the fathers' rights movement. The statement can be included with proper attribution. Michael H 34 ( talk) 15:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
I take back my assertion. I checked and I believe that Garret Lutrell is the author paraphrased statement. Michael H 34 ( talk) 19:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
I've been using [20] as a source for some of the articles I am working on, but in a peer review, someone posed a question about the site's reliability. I have found the site to be reliable myself, but can anyone else care to comment on the source? ThePointblank ( talk) 03:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
An editor has questioned the reliability of About.com as a reference in a peer review for list of awards and nominations received by Chris Brown. The sources that link to About.com are lists of award ceremonies, the nominations and winners. Would it be appropriate to keep About.com as a reliable source for this? DiverseMentality (Boo!) 03:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
So in this case, I'm assuming it's reliable, correct? DiverseMentality (Boo!) 21:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I would've added the links, but I was in class. Anywho, if the source only lists nominees and winners, and the writer doesn't put his/her two cents in, what's so unreliable about it? Aside from About.com, it's difficult to find reliable sources that list the nominees and winners (you should have seen the amount of time it took me to find a reliable source for the rest of them). DiverseMentality (Boo!) 02:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
The reliability of this reference was doubted at Vithoba FAC (closed). I had provided the following reasons why it is a RS, does this prove it is a RS?
-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 13:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia's collective ethos requires decent editors to spend time on this talk page to discuss how dated peerage sources compare with modern professional academic publications. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 16:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm getting a little tired of this one. We have a whole slew of templates for citing IMDb, and IMDb is cited, probably over a million times, in Wikipedia. Yet I keep running into people asserting (twice with regard to Rudolf Wanderone, for example, once on its talk page, once on its 2nd peer review page) that IMDb isn't a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. This really needs to get settled. Maybe have a referendum on this issue ( WP:RFC?), or whatever it takes, and either declare it a non-reliable source categorically or clarify the guideline that sites like this can be reliable for some things (titles, release dates, other basic information) and non-reliable for others (movie trivia, mostly contributed by readers). If it is deemed wholly unreliable, then we need to immediately TfD the IMDb templates and set up bots to remove (or, as with deleted images, comment out) IMDb citations that use them. This hemming and hawing on the issue, and ensuing general confusion, is making the WP:PR, WP:GA and WP:FA/ WP:FL processes much more painful than is necessary. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm GA-reviewing Flip-flop (politics) and am not sure whether FactCheck.org's Bush Ad Twists Kerry's Words on Iraq is a WP:RS. Can anyone help? -- Philcha ( talk) 10:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Are Quackwatch and Skeptic Report articles considered suitable sources for articles on pseudosciences? Fainites barley 23:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Would this be a reliable source for an article I am working on?
The reliability of this ref was doubted at Vithoba FAC. I gave the following reasons. Does it prove it is a RS?
-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 11:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
These organisations sponsor numerous awards and publications - Top 100 Writers, 2000 Outstanding Intellectuals of the 21st Century, International Man/Woman of the Year etc etc. According to the relevant wikipedia articles, and plenty of sources on the web, the publications by these organisations are (depending on your viewpoint) either scams or vanity publications (they also appear to be part owned by a rather dubious character). They seem, in short, entirely unreliable sources. However there are several dozen wikipedia articles which cite these "awards" see - [38] or [39]
Before I go through and systematically delete these citations, I wanted to check that others agree they are inappropriate! LeContexte ( talk) 16:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Thought I'd throw these in here for good measure. With regards using the below to cite "cultural references" in the article on South Park episode The China Probrem;
My thoughts were;
Southparkstuff is a fan site, Southparkstudios is the actual producers site for the show. Only the latter is the word of the creators, the former is fan opinion.
A blog, no quotes from the creators of the show.
Just another blog, even if it is featured in a newspaper website. No reference to having spoken to the creators of the show.
Southpark wikia is just another wiki, citing it is as good as citing another unreferenced wikipedia article. Copy their references by all means (if they have any), but remember they're subject to the rules about verifiability here too.
Alastairward ( talk) 23:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Justice Tawai Modibo Ocran died on October 27,2008 and not March 27, 2008 as reported on your website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.30.81.2 ( talk • contribs)
Could people here please look at Labor theory of value, and in particular at its external links section? Robert Vienneau's LTV FAQ and so forth seem like "some guys with websites" to me. — the Ghost of Adrian Mineha! hold seance at 09:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
One of the "guys with a website" keeps restoring the links when they are removed. [40] [41] After the second time, he gave an argument on the talk page, mostly that he thinks that the websites are good work and the article lacks things that they have. — the Ghost of Adrian Mineha! hold seance at 08:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Can we have more yes here, please? — the Ghost of Adrian Mineha! hold seance at 05:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Marjoe Gortner was a prominent child preacher known for his revival meetings and broadcasts. When he became an adult, and was in the process of leaving the field, he was the subject of an Oscar-winning, behind-the-scenes documentary. A couple of years later, 13-year-old Prem Rawat came to the United States and became known as the "boy guru". Meanwhile, to compete with Penthouse, Playboy launched Oui, which Time magazine described as having a "rambunctious editorial slant with uninhibited nudes pictured in the Penthouse mood." In 1973 Oui hired Marjoe to cover Millennium '73, a festival held at the Astrodome by Prem Rawat's mission, and which was promoted as the "most significant event in human history". Presumably the editors at Oui thought it would be clever to have a former boy preacher write about a contemporary boy guru.
A notable former follower later wrote a memoir in which she contrasted the two figures, "it is easy to assume that Maharaj Ji is just another Marjoe, bullied into preaching by his parents." Marjoe was enough of a celebrity that three journalists reported he was covering the event for Oui, and one of them interviewed him briefly. Those four sources directly establish the significance of Marjoe's viewpoint.
Millennium '73 uses two citations from Marjoe's article in Oui. One reference is to estimate the size of the crowd. There are a dozen source for the attendance but he alone estimates the change in audience from the first to the second day. As someone who had supported himself by organizing and addressing religious meetings, Gortner was used to estimating crowd sizes. The second use is for an attributed view. Four journalists expressed similar views, but he makes a unique point. Although it's just his point of view, his assessment of the audience's behavior was based on a lifetime of being in front of crowds of frenzied worshipers. Both of these citations were deleted by an editor, with the note "Not RS". [42] Is an article written by Gortner for Oui a reliable source for Gortner's views? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, folks, but look at the context:
Basically there are other reputable sources on the event attendance, and the article will not suffer from not having this source being mentioned. One of the quotes from this author, used in the article, was a mention of an announcement made at that event: You will sit in your assigned places, please What is the use of that stupid comment in an encyclopedic article? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
First a correction: it turns out the Marjoe article is used for four assertions in the article. Here is a list of each citation, as they'd been in the article last week. I've bolded the parts that are cited to Marjoe (I could fill in the cites but they can also be checked at the actual article.):
Only the last one is a real point of view, and if he were the only one saying it then it'd be different. But we have five independent sources making essentially the same assertion. As I wrote above, Gortner was accustomed to being in front of large audiences filled with frenzied worshipers and so he was capable of assessing the mood of the audience. Gortner does make some general observations about Prem Rawat. Those might be more suitable in the article on that person. I don't see any need to include the title of the Marjoe article, "Who Was Maharaj Ji? The world's most overweight midget", when it's cited. We don't do that for any other source, and it's well-known that editors, not writers, compose headlines. It appears to have been added to impeach the source. Like all citations, the article name is easily accessible in the reference section.
·:·
Will Beback
·:· 08:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Also: I don't see any BLP component here. None of these four assertions (appearance of a stage, a notice on the signboard, the size of the crowd, and the actions of the crowd) concern any identifiable living person.
·:·
Will Beback
·:· 09:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
This may already be asked and answered. If so, please provide a link. In the meantime, is the Southern Poverty Law Center a reliable source for labeling groups as "hate" groups? Yes, the definition of "hate" is an issue, but set that aside for now. For example, some wiki pages about certain organizations say the groups are "hate" groups and cite to the SPLC for a reliable source. Is this concordant with Wikipedia policy?
As to the definition of a "hate" group, is that defined by the SPLC? Is the SPLC's definition actually used on Wikipedia?
Thank you. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 23:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I was here a little while ago, [47]
Anyway. I've been working on the Potential Superpower pages. There, we're trying to get reliable sources for the page, (though, it's really hard when lots of IPs are trying to push their view and argue with us using news article when it discusses very little on the subject, and wikipedia policy states to use academic sources on topics like this).
Recently, I got two books that might help, [48] and [49]. But the problem is, Potential Superpower falls under the subject of International Relations/Political Science/Geopolitics. The authors of these two books from what I can tell are journalists, and don't have a degree in International Relations/Political Science/Geopolitics. Deavenger ( talk) 22:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Is a newspaper article, published by the Herald Sun in 2004 considered to be a verifiable source, even if copies of the article are not available for free on the web, but must be obtained via electronic newspaper archives such as Factiva or a trip to the library? -- Slp1 ( talk) 00:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Is Express Milwaukee [55] considered a reliable source, specifically for classifying a band's genre, and also when the exact author of the article in question is unknown? Prophaniti ( talk) 19:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
So general view would be that they can be used, but are iffy? Even taking into account that this particular article is anonymous? Prophaniti ( talk) 19:05, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know if this is considered to be a reliable source, as it is being used on a controversial article. Likewise, this book is also being used The B-Specials: A History of the Ulster Special Constabulary (1972) Sir Arthur Hazlett ISBN 0854682724. The reason I ask is according to the Telegraph The article states "Hezlet was commissioned to write a history of the Northern Irish police. However The "B" Specials, a History of the Ulster Special Constabulary (1972) was later dismissed as merely a defence of policing in the province." The commission was from the "B" Specials commanding officer. Thanks for the help, and advice, -- Domer48 'fenian' 17:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that, very helpful indeed. -- Domer48 'fenian' 20:42, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Answers.com includes content from 3rd-party publications, including various encyclopedias. Here are two examples.
Do any editors have any experience with the reliability of this hosted content? In other words, can we rely on Answers.com to quote the exact content of the encyclopedias concerned? The encyclopedias themselves are undoubtedly reliable sources. But verifying that what Answers.com hosts is exactly the same as the source given, without additions or deletions, is often a bit tricky. Some of these encyclopedias cost several hundred dollars to buy or are currently unavailable, plus Answers.com does not always make it clear which edition of the encyclopedia it is quoting. Any thoughts? Jayen 466 16:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
A newspaper from Taiwan has recently had it's reliability questioned based on an allegation (so far not backed up with any evidence) that the newspaper is partially funded by one of the political parties. The editor making the allegation has stated that according to Wikipedia rules, it is up to the person including a statement to "prove that the relevant sources are reliable and unbiased".
Is this true, that the person wishing to include the statement must "prove" the reliability and neutrality of the source?
If such proof is required, what is the standard of proof? And how does one go about proving such a thing? The article on Reliable sources provides the Washington Post as an example of a source whose input is welcome, yet plenty of people, including myself, dispute the "unbiased" nature of the Washington Post (I believe the post is pretty reliable on facts, but is not unbiased). Readin ( talk) 02:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add that, I am the editor who opposes the source being used. In this case, Readin extracted some statements from an article of a pro-independence leaning newspaper, reporting opinions of some pro-independence leaning experts "condemning" Taiwan's new pro-unification government of "serious violation of the rule of law and human rights abuse". As Taiwan is commonly considered to be democratic, I would consider these opinions as exceptional claims and the quality of the sources isn't high enough to justify these claims. No other newspapers in my knowledge have reported on these opinions.-- pyl ( talk) 07:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
In February 2008 experts on Taiwan from the US, Canada and Australia issued a joint statement condemning a wave of detentions of present and former Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) officials by the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) government of President Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九), calling them a serious violation of the rule of law and human rights.
<ref>{{cite news | last = Snyder | first = Charles | title = Experts on Taiwan slam recent detentions | publisher = Taipei Times | date = 06 November 2008 | url = http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/11/06/2003427868 | accessdate = 06 November 2008}} </ref>
Nothing in the rules says "if the entire newspaper fails as a reliable source, we can't use it for much of anything". The reliability of sources are decided on a case by case basis. Also, whether I agree with the POV of this report is beside the point. I have issues with this particular source being in this particular context because it fails Wikipedia's requirements. I will quote the relevant section of the rules so we can just focus on it. Under WP:REDFLAG, it says:-
As I pointed out above, as Taiwan is generally considered to be democratic, having an article taken from a newspaper reporting on a couple of experts "condemning" the government and calling the government's action "a serious violation of the rule of law and human rights" will be an exceptional claim according to my highlight section of the rules. To make the material available on Wikipedia, it will thus require high quality sources. As we have all agreed Taipei Times is a biased source against the government: It is a partly opposition owned newspaper, always reporting the opposition's POV. Some of these "experts" are biased if you check the credentials.
Further, this report is exaggerated. If you read the original text of the joint statement, it says "serious concerns", not "condemn". The statement never called the government's actions "a serious violation of the rule of law and human rights". Instead it says, "the procedures followed by the prosecutor’s offices are severely flawed", "This is a severe contravention of the writ of habeas corpus and a basic violation of due process, justice and the rule of law". In respect of human rights, it says "[w]e do firmly believe that any alleged wrongdoings must be dealt with in a fair and open manner in an impartial court. Justice through the rule of law is essential to Taiwan’s efforts to consolidate democracy and protect fundamental human rights". These "experts" never directly or indirectly described the government's actions as a serious violation of human rights. This fails Wikipedia's NPOV requirement as well as WP:SOURCES. The report does not "substantiate material within articles".
WP:SOURCES also says:-
This is a single POV taken in a biased newspaper reporting the opinions of a couple of biased people in an exaggerated manner. There are no opposing POVs being reported.
I am not saying that this story cannot be used for Wikipedia at all. That's another issue. But in this case on the reliable sources board, we are concerned with whether the sources cited are reliable. In this case, I am saying this source violates the Wikipedia rules which I cited above.
WP:BURDEN also says:-
Readin should be the person who establishes the sources are reliable. I shouldn't be the person who bears the onus of proof. The starting position should be, now the reliability is challenged, Readin should prove with evidence and show that the sources are reliable. At this stage, I do not see any evidence being shown.-- pyl ( talk) 01:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
"It is a partly opposition owned newspaper". This is plausible, but I still would like to see some evidence for this claim. Readin ( talk) 15:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
"condemning" the government and calling the government's action "a serious violation of the rule of law and human rights". Even before checking this page I recognized that the wording needed some fixing for NPOV concerns, and the statement in the article on Ma Ying-jeou has been modified.
"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."
This is actually my biggest concern. What standard of evidence is to be used?
User:Metropolitan90 has valid concerns about the NPOV of the statement due to lack of response from the government/KMT. As I said earlier, we should address those on the talk:Ma Ying-jeou page. Readin ( talk) 15:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The burden of proof that you cite is referring for the need for reliable sources. It says that the editor adding the data has the burden of providing a reliable source. It doesn't directly say that the editor has the burden of proving the source is reliable. I believe that in trying to apply that you are engaging in wp:wikilawyering, specifically
I'll ask at the wp:burden discussion page how to apply the "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation" statement." Although the footnote given at that page, "When content in Wikipedia requires direct substantiation, the established convention is to provide an inline citation to the supporting references. The rationale is that this provides the most direct means to verify whether the content is consistent with the references. Alternative conventions exist, and are acceptable if they provide clear and precise attribution for the article's assertions, but inline citations are considered 'best practice' under this rationale. For more details, please consult Wikipedia:Citing_sources#How to cite sources." seems to reinforce the idea that the burden is met by providing the citation, not that the editor has to also prove the source is reliable. Readin ( talk) 18:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Now I have shown that Liberty Times/Taipei Times is biased. Please let us know why Taipei Times is a reliable source? Why is Taipei Times a high quality source?-- pyl ( talk) 00:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Another quick question: could this [58] be used as a RS on Avenged Sevenfold's genre? My inclination would be towards no. It does have writers staff, but there's nothing to indicate whether the writer (in this case certainly) is any kind of expert, qualified or otherwise, and the very tone of the site (as seen here [59] outlining what they look for in their writers) doesn't exactly sound encouraging. But what do others say? Prophaniti ( talk) 19:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography#Reliable sources over the reliability of commonly used sources in porn star articles, such as AInews.com, XBiz.com, Rogreviews.com and XFanz.com. The WikiProject really needs some outside views on this. Thanks. Epbr123 ( talk) 00:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Full discussion here, short summary: a person's works (a book) is cited by several reliable scholars. It is however hard to find out any information about the person itself - we can't find out if he has any academic credentials, or any significant facts from his bio. Can this person (his works/books) be considered reliable? One one side he is, after all, cited by reliable scholars who presumably did their research. On the other - other than him being an author of some books and articles, and a website, we know nothing about him. Is he reliable? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that "Jam Base" is getting used a lot for citations here on Wikipedia in order to either show "Significant Coverage" or to verify facts. At first glance it seems ok but per Wikipedia policy on Self-published sources it seems to fall under open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources that are largely not acceptable. It is a combination of a social networking site and a fanzine/blog where fans of Jam Music can create an account and post stories either in a "article" form or in a "journal" form. From the sites "About Us" page it says, in part, "Established in 1998, JamBase has grown into a community of passionate live music fans over half a million strong." and "JamBase works closely with leading concert promoters and record labels like Live Nation, AEG-Live, Warner Brothers Records and Universal Records. Equally important is working closely with the best independent promoters, venues and labels worldwide." The FAQ section has information that points toward the "open wiki" scenario with answers such as "Since JamBase relies on user-generated content, no one person has control of artist pages. All of our users can submit content as long as they have a My JamBase account". This seems along the lines of the Wikipedia:Ownership of articles Policy. Soundvisions1 ( talk) 12:51, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, I cannot see how the book
Roman Catholicism: The Basics, by Michael Walsh can be considered a reliable source for the statement in the article
Roman Catholic Church: "In common usage 'catholic' refers to the body also known as Roman Catholic Church". On page 18, that book says: "'Catholic' is regularly also used in opposition to 'Protestant', and it is used also in opposition to the term 'Orthodox' ... In common usage, however, the matter is not quite so straightforward. ..." To me the book seems to disagree with the statement in support of which it is cited. But
User:NancyHeise affirms that the citation is valid support for the statement, and that a consensus declares it to be so. Am I indeed wrong? Note that I am not questioning the statement, but only the use of this source as support for it. It may well be that I am putting this question in the wrong place. If I am, please forgive me, and let me know where I should post it.
Soidi (
talk) 21:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC) Reasoning dialogue, rather than mere declarations that the matter is already settled, has begun. The problem is solved.
Soidi (
talk) 20:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Please see [60] - this paper has not yet been published although I expect it will be published. My point is that it might be changed before publication, and we should not use pre-publication papers. (This article is extremely hard to edit if you are not a fan of the subject, by the way). Comments? Thanks. dougweller ( talk) 06:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A brief question, should WorldNetDaily be used as RS? Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 12:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, is this a reliable source? If not can anyone suggest an alternative? Ϣere Spiel Chequers 07:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
How reliable is Linux.com? See usage in the OpenOffice.org Writer article. -- Joshua Issac ( talk) 19:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
There's some confusion about linux.com. Basically, they have a professional core editorial team, and they accept two types of submissions:
The latter can be considered quite reliable, as they are subject to a normal editorial process, and are not significantly different from other sites that publish articles from freelance writers/journalists, e.g. IBM developerworks, although the latter doesn't always pay a fee.
I have no idea about the Php site. VG ☎ 01:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a section near the bottom of the article on John Wilkes Booth called Booth Escaped Theories that has citations that do not meet wikipedias guidlines on verifiability. Although there are citations, the authors are very suspect and caution should be used in adding this particular theory as it does not meet wikipedias policies on Fringe theories nor weight as well. I have been attempting to add a refimprove tag to the section, but one editor has removed the tag twice. Of the three citations that support the theory, the oldest, The Escape and Suicide of John Wilkes Booth, is based on a death bed confession that only the author heard. The author heard the confession, then toured the country making money off of displaying the mummified remains. He only wrote the book, to support his claim. The next citation, The Lincoln Conspiracy was written by a movie producer who wanted to promote a movie he was making in the 70's. This same producer has also produced movies called The Search for Heaven, Encounters with the Unexplained, The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark, and Uncovering the Truth About Jesus. The third citation by a man named Theodore Nottingham, claiming to be a decendant of Booth and is based on information his grandfather told him. And not much more.
These authors hardly have a reputation for fact finding. With the verifiability problem, added to the problems of WP:Weight and WP:Fringe, this entire section needs to go, but I can't handle a stubborn editor who refuses to let me even add the refimprove tag. What do I do.-- Jojhutton ( talk) 00:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
An article by Alexander Litvinenko published by Chechenpress is being used in the Litvinenko article to engage in speculation by Litvinenko that Putin is a paedophile. I have removed the comments from the article, due to reasons which I have explained here and here. As I have explained in detail who Chechenpress is and who is behind it, it needs to be ascertained whether they can be regarded as a reliable source for purposes of WP, particularly when it involves a real, BLP issue. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 07:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Mosmof as a user and a few others are intent on destroying the bio of Ronn Torossian, a living person, and his firm 5W Public Relations. They abritarily say blogs arent reliable (when it comes to Sundance major celebrity events) and the richest man in Europe who 5WPR represents. When it comes to obscure Jewish issues, they cite bloggers endlessly. Pls. help and intervene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.103.203.218 ( talk • contribs) 22:43, November 9, 2008
Mosmof is the same person who on 5W page removed consistent sourcing from blogs, including that of the largest newspaper in the Ukraine, and E Entertainment. What is not inconsistent in that matter ? Goldberg is a political pundit, very far on the extreme left vis a vis Israel and wasnt under Atlantic Monthly's auspicies. That said, would one publish what Artutz 7 (a right leaning Israeli blog) publishes re Ronn ? -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.103.203.218 ( talk
guardian.co.uk is a reliable source. Are posts on guardian.co.uk blog by Tom Service ( home) such as this one also reliable? It is a blog, but published by a reliable source. Is it a usable source?-- LYKANTROP ✉ 23:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. Where a news organization publishes the opinions of a professional but claims no responsibility for the opinions, the writer of the cited piece should be attributed (e.g., "Jane Smith has suggested ..."). Posts left by readers may never be used as sources.
Tom Service was born in 1976 in Glasgow. He studied music at the University of York, took a Masters at the University of Southampton, and completed a doctorate there on the music of John Zorn. He writes about music for the Guardian, and is a regular contributor to the BBC Music Magazine, Opera, and Tempo. His articles have appeared in books and music dictionaries, and in journals in France and Germany. He teaches at Trinity College of Music, and has given pre-concert talks and written programme notes for many of the festivals, orchestras, and opera companies in the UK. He began broadcasting on Radio 3 on Hear and Now in 2001, becoming one of the show's regular presenters, and has presented Music Matters since the autumn of 2003.
To the extent permitted at law, we do not accept any responsibility for any statement in the material. You must not rely on any statement we have published on guardian.co.uk without first taking specialist professional advice. Nothing in the material is provided for any specific purpose or at the request of any particular person
Would the Flags of the World website be considered a reliable source? They list an editorial staff, display an ISSN identifier here, and feature an extensive bibliography section. I have used this website in an article that is currently a featured article candidate and the reliability of the source has been questioned. Thanks in advance. — Bellhalla ( talk) 02:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate wider community input on the permissibility of using self-published sources in the Rick Ross (consultant) article, specificially the section covering Mr Ross's involvement as a BATF and FBI consultant in the Waco Branch Davidian standoff. The self-published sources concerned are (1) a letter Mr Ross states he wrote as a rebuttal of assertions in a Department of Justice report, and (2) a critique by Mr Ross of various websites and scholars that have published criticism about him.
I provide some background below, for those editors who are not familiar with the history.
Jayen466 failed to mention an edit he did. The original text read "Nancy Ammerman insisted the FBI relied too much on Ross, a view which is not shared by the other three experts reporting to the Justice department." Out of 4 experts reporting to the Justice Department only Ammerman mentioned me as an issue. The others did not. She stood alone, 1 out of 4 experts, in her opinions about my role at Waco. None of the other 4 experts thought my involvement was noteworthy enough to even mention. Jayen466 knows this and he cut it out. This is an example of the way he has contrived to project his POV through editing.
Ammerman had her own political agenda regarding the issue of "cults," which she prefers to call "new religious movmentts." She and a relatively small group of academics attempted to use Waco as a means of discrediting those that disagreed with their opinions about cults and the potential dangers they often pose for society. These few academics tried to spin Waco to their ideological and professional advantage. But the facts about David Koresh and the Waco Davidians, as they were disclosed historically through two congressional investigations (one Republican and one by Democrats), the independent Danforth investigation, criminal trials, civil trials and the work of mental health professionals with Davidian children and others, discredited this group of academics. Ammerman and the other academics Jayen466 chose to quote would seemingly have us believe (1) David Koresh was not "a dangerous cult leader" (2) the Waco Davidians did not fit "the generalized pattern of a destructive cult." These are neither credible conclusions or reliable opinions given the facts established repeatedly and objectively about Waco historically. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 20:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
A 1993 Department of Justice report to the US Attorney General stated the following concerning Mr Ross's involvement in the Waco standoff:
The FBI did not solicit advice from any "cult experts" or "cult deprogrammers." The FBI did receive a number of unsolicited offers of assistance from former Branch Davidian member Marc Breault (who has since published a paperback book about Koresh and the Branch Davidians). The FBI also received input from two self-described cult experts, Rick Ross (who moved to a hotel in Dallas, and later to Waco, during the standoff and appeared on local television programs, as well as the CNN broadcast of March 10 that upset Dr. Dietz) ... Ross contacted the FBI on March 4, 1993 and requested that he be interviewed regarding his knowledge of cults in general and the Branch Davidians in particular. Ross said that he had been familiar with the Branch Davidians for several years, and had known several former Davidians. Ross provided information about Koresh to the Waco Tribune Herald for its series about the Branch Davidians. Ross also had been in contact with Steve Schneider's sister, who had asked him to help devise a strategy to "deprogram" Schneider. The ATF also contacted Ross in January 1993 for information about Koresh. Ross also telephoned the FBI on March 27 and March 28, offering advice about negotiation strategies. Ross suggested that the FBI attempt to embarrass Koresh by informing other members of the compound about Koresh's faults and failures in life, in order to convince them that Koresh was not the prophet they had been led to believe. The FBI did not "rely" on Ross for advice whatsoever during the standoff. The FBI interviewed Ross only at Ross' request, and politely declined his unsolicited offers of assistance throughout the standoff. The FBI treated the information Ross supplied as it would any other unsolicited information received from the public: it evaluated the credibility of the information and treated it accordingly.
Following the Waco tragedy, the US government commissioned reports from four scholars tasked with writing critical appraisals of law enforcement actions in the Waco siege. All four of these scholars criticised the authorities for failing to consult religious experts familiar with the belief system of the Branch Davidians. Nancy Ammerman, a professor of sociology of religion at Boston University, discussed Mr Ross's involvement specifically in her September 1993 report to the Treasury and Justice Departments:
Mr. Rick Ross, who often works in conjunction with the Cult Awareness Network (CAN), has been quoted as saying that he was "consulted" by the BATF. My suspicion is that he was merely one among many the BATF interviewed in its background checks on the group and on Koresh. However, it is unclear how information gained from him was evaluated. The Network and Mr. Ross have a direct ideological (and financial) interest in arousing suspicion and antagonism against what they call "cults". These same persons seem to have been major sources for the series of stories run by the Waco newspaper, beginning February 27. It seems clear that people within the "anti-cult" community had targeted the Branch Davidians for attention. Although these people often call themselves "cult experts," they are certainly not recognized as such by the academic community. The activities of the CAN are seen by the National Council of Churches (among others) as a danger to religious liberty, and deprogramming tactics have been increasingly found to fall outside the law. At the very least, Mr. Ross and any ex-members he was associated with should have been seen as questionable sources of information. Having no access to information from the larger social science community, however, BATF had no way to put in perspective what they may have heard from angry ex-members and eager deprogrammers.
[A week later, having received additional documentation, Ammerman provided an addendum in which she corrected some of the above suppositions:] The interview transcripts document that Mr. Rick Ross was, in fact, closely involved with both the ATF and the FBI. He supplied ATF with "all information he had regarding the Branch Davidian cult," including the name of an ex-member he believed would have important strategic information. He also supplied information to the Waco newspaper and talked with the FBI both in early March and in late March. He clearly had the most extensive access to both agencies of any person on the "cult expert" list, and he was apparently listened to more attentively. The ATF interviewed the persons he directed them to and evidently used information from those interviews in planning their February 28 raid. In late March, Ross recommended that agents attempt to publicly humiliate Koresh, hoping to drive a wedge between him and his followers. While Ross's suggestions may not have been followed to the letter, such embarrassment tactics were indeed tried.
The FBI interview report includes the note that Ross "has a personal hatred for all religious cults" and would willingly aid law enforcement in an attempt to "destroy a cult." The FBI report does not include any mention of the numerous legal challenges to the tactics employed by Mr. Ross in extricating members from the groups he hates.
Both the seriousness with which agents treated Ross and the lack of seriousness with which they treated various theologians demonstrate again the inability of agents on the scene to make informed judgements about the information to which they had access and their inability to seek out better information. It also demonstrates the preference given to anti-cult psychological tactics over strategies that would meet the group on grounds that took faith seriously.
As can be seen, Ammerman attributes a more significant role to Mr Ross than the official Department of Justice report to the Attorney General. To that extent, she is in agreement with Mr Ross, who claims in his letter that the FBI approached him for advice.
I have over the past few weeks significantly revised the Rick Ross (consultant) article. While the disputed question concerning the extent of Mr Ross's involvement was discussed in previous versions of this article section, the present version does not raise this issue. Here are the old and new versions, for comparison:
Mr Ross has posted on the talk page of the article, expressing disappointment with the changes, and has several times sought a return to the version of a month ago, including the statements from his self-published sources. In order to accommodate his wish to have content from these self-published sources reinstated, we have to look at whether their use would be in line with our policies and guidelines, which is where I would appreciate editors' input.
The self-published sources are located on Mr Ross's website, rickross.com. They are the following:
Given their status as self-published sources, their eligibility for use falls under WP:SPS and WP:SELFQUEST. WP:SPS and WP:SELFQUEST state, among other things:
Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources.
Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
1. the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject being discussed;
2. it is not contentious;
3. it is not unduly self-serving;
4. it does not involve claims about third parties;
5. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
6. there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it;
7. the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Editors may well wish to assess each of the two sources differently. I suggest therefore that editors comment in the two separate Comments subsections available at the very end of this post, outlining their thoughts on each.
The first of these sources is a letter by Mr Ross to the Attorney General and various cc recipients. No one to date has asserted that it has been published by a third-party source, and as far as I know, it is only available on rickross.com. It asserts, among other things, that the FBI did contact Ross for advice.
The question is, if we reintroduce the issue of the extent of Mr Ross's involvement (which would add considerably to the length of the section), should we incorporate this letter as an encyclopedic source, and if so, should we quote from it, or describe its content, or should we just include a mention that it exists, with a link in the reference?
Initially, my feeling was that this self-published source should not be used, as we don't usually cite personal correspondence unless published by a RS. In the interest of fairness, given that the facts as presented in the Department of Justice report are contradicted by both Mr Ross and Ammerman, I removed both the FBI assertions as to Mr Ross's more marginal role, i.e. having offered only unsolicited advice, and the rebuttal asserting a more substantial involvement sourced to this letter by Mr Ross. However, I would be interested in other editors' views, in particular the applicability of WP:SPS and WP:SELFQUEST to the use of this letter.
The "Flaming Web Sites" page (it also has a section on Wikipedia) has in the past been used to source the following content in the article, included after Wessinger's characterisation of Mr Ross as a "spurious self-styled expert[s]":
This rather long-winded "scholarly" review regarding media coverage of the Waco Davidian Standoff was written by cult apologist Catherine Wessinger. [...]. Ms. Wessinger snipes about "spurious self-styled experts" [...] getting too much media attention. The professor then stuffs her footnotes with what looks like a Scientologist's historical guide concerning my past. Could it be that she is angry that the press doesn't quote her more?
As I said, the reference to Wessinger's paper has been deleted (although a brief mention of a published book by her is still included), making this quote somewhat superfluous. However, apart from calling Catherine Wessinger a cult apologist, the Flaming Web Sites page also applies this label to the above-cited Nancy Ammerman, who was one of the government-appointed experts, as well as to Eileen Barker, James T. Richardson, Jeffrey K. Hadden, Gordon J. Melton, Anson Shupe, Massimo Introvigne, David Bromley and Dick Anthony. (For anyone not familiar with these names, they are some of the world's most prominent scholars in this field, with a long string of publications in peer-reviewed journals and books published by top university presses and academic publishers.)
In my estimation, the use of this self-published source to cast aspersions against these scholars is inappropriate as per WP:SPS ("Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources"), and inappropriate as per WP:SELFQUEST, specifically points 2 (contentious), 3 (unduly self-serving), 4 (involving claims about third parties), and possibly 5 (claims about events not directly related to the subject). It also fails WP:TONE.
Jayen has a conflict of interest as follows; (1) He is a devotee of a notorious guru, often called a "cult leader," by the name of Osho/Rajneesh. (2) Despite this bias he has become a primary editor at Wikipedia's Osho entry. His edits can be seen as essentially promoting the guru and subsequently the entry reads at times like an infomercial. (3) The Ross Institute Internet Archives, which is a nonprofit educational effort and an institutional member of the New Jersey Library Association, has an archive subsection about Osho/Rajaneesh that includes news reports from independent reliable media outlets that correctly reflects the guru's deeply troubled history. (4) Jayen466 has begun editing the entry about me in an apparent attempt to discredit online sources of critical information about Osho. If Jayen466 has in fact no association, personal interest or history with Osho/Rajneesh in any way, shape or form, perhaps he should make that clear right now, but that is my understanding. This represents a conflict of interest in my opinion. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 20:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Waco Branch Davidian subsection my comments appear below. Also, regarding the Jason Scott case. Admittedly Jayen466 is at times clever in parsing words and playing with edits, he knows how to play the political game here at Wikipedia. On the other hand I am not a Wikipedian. I am here as an individual because a bio about me that I didn't initiate or request has seemingly become a place for people angry at me and/or the Ross Institute to grind their ax. I am not included in any paper and ink encyclopedia that I am aware of anywhere and have requested that my bio be deleted from Wikipedia. It is sad that Wikipedia can be used this way by almost anyone anonymously editing an entry for the purpose of revenge or retaliation. The open source model has the potential to be both good and bad. In the interest of maintaining a reliable source of information with objective historical facts and accuracy, someone should reign in people like Jayen466. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 20:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
What do reliable independent sources say about it? If the content is written from primary sources - DoJ or Ross - then we may be violating multiple policies (V, BLP, UNDUE etc.) so I would step back and describe how the issue is presented in independent sources. Guy ( Help!) 11:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I have commented below regarding the bias and unreliable nature of the scholars Jayen466 has chosen to construct his POV in the Waco Davidian subsection, which isn't supported by the historical facts as gathered from multiple independent historical sources. Based upon the conflict of interest Jayen466 has as an editor concerning this entry he is not a reliable editor. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 20:11, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) To the extent other sources discuss Mr. Ross, he is entitled to rebut them with his own self-published sources, particularly in an article on him. This is the essential purpose of WP:SELFQUEST, which is there to enlarge the universe of sources, to modify the two sections above it that restrict the usage of selfpublished or questionable sources. ( I note this section is being modified and actively discussed at WP:V and has changed from the version above. ). This is in the spirit of, indeed essentially enjoined by WP:BLP. A person is a notable, usable source on himself. The question of reliability is not even appropriate. Reliability of Ross as a source begins to come up when he starts making claims about other persons or things which are distinguishable from "they are wrong about what they said about me, about what I said, did, where I was born, etc. This is what (I say) really happened." Ross calling someone an apologist is arguably a fact about him, not the other person. But his reasoning and facts that he bases such statements on probably does fall under illegitimate self-publication / questionability / reliability prohibitions; for even if his SPS were deemed reliable, it would not be good enough for BLP (of these other people).. John Z ( talk) 05:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
As above. Guy ( Help!) 11:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The article now reflects the POV of editor Jayen466, who is a person devoted to a notorious guru often called a cult leader named Osho/Rajneesh. That same guru has a critical archive subsection composed of news articles within the Ross Institute Internet Archives. So this complete re-editing represents a conflict of interest and the personal agenda of Jayen466. Having said that, the Waco section is now dominated by one POV without meaningful balance. That is, a relatively small group of academics known to be sympathetic to groups called "cults," which prefer to call them "new religious movements" (NRMs). The Waco subsection is now largely disconnected from reality, as established through government investigations, independent reports, court trials and records, eye witnesses that testified before congress and in cour and mental health professionals that treated Waco Davidian children and evaluated the erratic behavior of David Koresh. Specifically, history has concluded that David Koresh was a deeply disturbed psychopath and cult leader, and that the Waco Davidans were a destructive cult comparable and often listed with other destructive cults such as Jim Jones and Jonestown, another group that ended in a mass murder/suicide ordered by its leader. The "scholars" critical of me quoted in the current Wikipedia version edited by Jayen466 raise the issue that I "acting as an informant for government agencies and media journalists, was instrumental in establishing a simplified image of Koresh as a dangerous cult leader, using the generalized pattern of a destructive cult, and that [my] activities, along with those of apostates, significantly shaped the viewpoints of government parties acting in the case." Also called into question by these supposedly knowledgeable men is my "statements may be evaluated in the context of the financial and ideological stakes anticult workers...have in 'cultbusting.'" This is entire line of criticism patently ridiculous and raises serious questions about the entry and its current bias (1) are these scholars seriously positing the theory that David Koresh was not "a dangerous cult leader"? (2)That the Branch Davidians did not fit the "generalized pattern of a destructive cult"? The general historical consensus based upon the objective facts is that Koresh was a dangerous cult leader and the group did fit the generalized pattern of a destructive cult. Then these critics engage in name calling attempting to label me an "informant," which I was not, and rudely calling former members that came forward with testimony about the gross abuses within the cult "apostates." None of this belongs in an supposedly objective encyclopedia entry. Moreover the opinions of Nancy Ammerman were NOT shared by the three other experts reporting to the Justice Department, which was noted in the entry before Jayen466 edited this fact out. Specifically, the other reporting experts didn't even mention my role, let alone that I was somehow relied upon too much by the FBI. Ammerman who has been lauded for her opinions by the Church of Scientology in its publication "Freedom Magazine" and the other academics quoted such as Tabor, Wright and Lewis have been repeatedly recommended as "resources" or "experts" by Scientology. This has garnered them a reputation as "cult apologists." Moreover James Lewis who is quoted in the Waco section, once stupidly claimed that Aum, the notorious cult that gassed the Tokyo subway system, was not guilty and falsely accused. Aum paid for all of Lewis' travel expenses to come to Japan. Other scholars in the same camp ideologically as Lewis have also received financial funding, expenses etc. from groups called "cults." This calls into question "the financial and ideological stakes" they have regarding this subject. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 17:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The Jason Scott case entry has likewise been edited by Jayen466 to represent his POV. He uses edited comments from "jurors" that reportedly said, "prosecutors had not proved Ross participated in restraining Scott." In this way he hopes to minimize the "not guilty" verdict and narrow its scope, rather than admit that I was acquitted of all charges by a jury that only was out two hours. He wants readers to think I was escaped due a technicality, which is false and deliberately misleading. Jayen466 then goes on to attempt to present the POV that Jason Scott was subjected to "verbal abuse" in an effort to get him to "renounce his faith." This is based upon one-sided and very selective quoting of court testimony. Also, edited out significantly is the fact, which was previously included in the entry, that after Jason Scott settled the multi-million dollar judgment he had against me for only $5,000 and 200 hours of additional deprogramming time, the Scientology lawyer Jason fired (Kendrick Moxon) attempted to revoke the settlement on the grounds that Jason Scott was incompetent and unable to make decisions for himself. This is important because supposedly Moxon was fighting for Jason's right to make his own individual choices, which exposes the hypocrisy of the court case. Rick A. Ross ( talk)
Given the amount time Jayen466 devotes at Wikipedia to editing in a relatively narrow area of interest, i.e. Osho/Rajneesh, cults, cult critics and related subjecte it seems fair to ask the following question; Does he work for or derive any benefits from a group that has ever been referred to as a "cult" and/or someone that at any time has been called a "guru," spiritual mentor of some sort and/or "cult leader"? Again, this goes to his direct conflict of interest and bias as an editor. Rick A. Ross ( talk) 21:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
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