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An RfC has started on whether the word "terrorism" can be mentioned and discussed in the article space of several articles, and the question of whether or not the sourcing is adequate. Editors knowledgeable about WP:RS would be welcome at Talk:Weatherman (organization)/Terrorism RfC]. Many sources have been provided in the article, most recently at the top and bottom of the RfC page. Articles affected are Bill Ayers, Weatherman (organization), Bernardine Dohrn, and Obama-Ayers controversy. Please comment there, not here. -- Noroton ( talk) 18:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Besides Lew Rockwell, more than 350 of our articles link to lewrockwell.com (list at User:Tom harrison/rockwell-links.) How many of these are appropriate and useful? Tom Harrison Talk 14:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Some of the articles linking to lewrockwell.com include Winston Churchill, Zora Neal Hurston, Inoculation, Elvis Presley, and Caffeine. Tom Harrison Talk 17:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I gather that The Comics Journal is generally considered reliable. Is it a problem when they put Wikipedia in their bibliography for an article? In "Stop, My Butt Hurts!" The Yaoi Invasion (NSFW), they cite perhaps this version of Yuri and this version of Yaoi. Is it okay to selectively use parts of the TCJ article which don't bear resemblance to those old article versions? - Malkinann ( talk) 02:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Is a documentary by Phoenix TV on Reports of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China reliable source? This is disputed on that article as the transcript was originally hosted on a so-called Chinese propaganda site by FLG practitioners but is verifiable that such programme exists (heck you could download the whole documentary from the net) and I have personally verified the transcript (accurate, although the translation is a bit shoddy). Please also see Talk:Reports of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China#Phoenix Television for the full (and lengthy) discussion we've had. -- antilived T | C | G 22:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the question itself was phrased in a misleading manner. There is a widely documented, ongoing propaganda campaign against Falun Gong practitioners in China. The so called "pheonix TV video" being used as a source here is a video distributed by chinese consulates - the only thing is that it seems they had it aired on pheonix TV too. A major concern here is that the source itself is engaged in a big propaganda campaign. US Congress Resolution No. 188, Unanimously Passed, states : "propaganda from state-controlled media in the People's Republic of China has inundated the public in an attempt to breed hatred and discrimination[against Falun Gong]" Another analysis worth considering is the RSF report on CCP Propaganda.
In specific, There are two aspects to consider:
WP:RS states:
Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as extremist should be used only as sources about themselves and in articles about themselves or their activities, or where they are necessary to explain other groups or events; any information used must be directly relevant to the subject. The material taken from such sources should not be contentious, and it should not involve claims made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources. Articles should not be based primarily on such sources.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 06:20, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Do we agree that the source of the video is not the TV stations? It sounds like the stations merely aired it, so the context on how they aired it is probably worth explaining. i.e. which TV program was it aired during? Dilip rajeev is saying that is distributed by the Chinese consulates? Who created the video? John Vandenberg ( chat) 09:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Kindly allow me to point out the concerns I have with the particular piece. The section below, am copying from my discussion on the page's talk:
Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as extremist should be used only as sources about themselves and in articles about themselves or their activities, or where they are necessary to explain other groups or events; any information used must be directly relevant to the subject. The material taken from such sources should not be contentious, and it should not involve claims made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources. Articles should not be based primarily on such sources. - WP:RS
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 18:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Also kindly take into consideration these pages where Kilgour and Matas present evidence demonstrating the propagandistic nature of the video.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 18:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Is he a valid source for citing? Why or why not? JJ4sad6 ( talk) 13:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
The documentary The Other Side of AIDS received reviews in Variety and The Hollywood Reporter but people in the AFD discussion are saying that they are not reliable sources!! What would be a relaible source for films if not these newspapers?? miniluv ( talk) 18:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Back in July I asked if Vevmo was a reliable source, and it was resolved that it was not. Then in August, I asked if the MM Agency was reliable, and it was resolved that it was, though not for contentious claims or notability issues. Now, an editor added some info to The Real World: Brooklyn article. The source was MM, but MM indicated that its source was Vevmo. What do we do? Nightscream ( talk) 06:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Is members.aol.com a reliable source? Specifically this? Yes or No & why or why not please. Thanks. Jasynnash2 ( talk) 08:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. I didn't think it was but, was trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Thanks. Jasynnash2 ( talk) 10:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to edit the article on James D. Watson to include the fact that when he attempted to clarify his controversial comments about race and intelligence, his clarification was misreported by several media sources. For example, the journal Nature reported
Watson has apologized and retracted the outburst... He acknowledged that there is no evidence for what he claimed about racial differences in intelligence.
However, if one reads the original text of Watson's apology, it is quite clear that Watson did not state that there was no evidence for his opinion about race and intelligence. The closest he came to saying this was that there was no support for the notion that Africans were inferior in general, which is not what he had meant with his original comments. Since it is a very common misconception that Watson said what Nature claimed that he did, I would like the article about him to make mention of the fact that Nature's reporting on this was inaccurate.
This is not original research or original synthesis, because a number of well-known science blogs have covered this misreporting. The best-known of them is Gene Expression, arguably the most widely-respected blog that exists about genetics. However, the user Hardyplants has twice reverted my edit about this, saying that blogs cannot be considered a reliable source. I know that in most cases, information from blogs cannot be verified, but here the contradiction between Watson's apology and what Nature reported about it is visible to any observer. Can a well-known science blog such as Gene Expression be used as a source for something like this which is independently verifiable?
Captain Occam ( talk) 05:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
To those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologise unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief.
Comment - It seems a very odd policy that an article cannot accurately, truthfully and verifiably point out that the printed media is misrepresenting the subject of the article, when a well-respected source already points this out, but cannot be cited because it's a blog. Odder still that the basis for this is a heightened scrutiny for biographies of living persons, in part because such persons may have an action for defamation. So instead, we republish and perpetuate the misrepresentation, all in the service of a policy that's supposed to prevent exactly that. TJRC ( talk) 06:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
If the subject ( David Copperfield (illusionist)) of an article links from his website to [3] (the memorial site for Copperfield's father), would material in the rememberly site be considered a reliable source?-- The Red Pen of Doom 10:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
In Cyrus cylinder (concerning an ancient Babylonian artifact), I have quoted an explanatory text that the British Museum displays in front of the artifact in room 52 of the museum. I've verified this personally at the museum. The text is not officially online but a copy can be seen on Flickr (see [4]). Another editor, Tundrabuggy ( talk · contribs), is disputing the use of this source on grounds that are not entirely clear (he calls it "anecdotal" and "poorly sourced"). As far as I'm concerned, it's eminently reliable - it's from the institution which actually owns the artifact, it's published, it's on public display, and I would think it reasonable to consider the British Museum a source "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". What do other people think? -- ChrisO ( talk) 10:44, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Clarification of my position on this issue. ChrisO is using this text to assert that the British Museum is calling the Cyrus Cylinder "propaganda." I, on the other hand, have found three sources presumably from the British Museum in relation to the Cylinder (the first one appears to be the catalog comment) -- [5] [6] [7] and not one of these references use the term "propaganda." My problem is with linking the British Museum to the concept of "propaganda" which is later expanded upon at great length in the article, thus giving the impression that the interpretation given below in the "Propaganda" section is somehow sanctioned by the BM (pardon the abbreviation, no offense intended ;)) -- Tundrabuggy ( talk) 20:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Please stop this current line of discussion on this page -- the above digression is not an RS issue. Take it to the talk page. PelleSmith ( talk) 21:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This specifically involves the 'blurbs' here [8]. There is an ongoing dispute at Kaveh Farrokh and Shadows in the Desert: Persia at War about whether these can be included in the article as book reviews. Some editors including myself say no, others keep reinstating them. My argument is that we actually need to be able to verify them, and that means seeing the original sources. This is particularly important as they are selective and at the moment there is no way of knowing what the rest of the statement was. I see this as similar to the way critics' reviews are used on billboards for plays, etc. The rest of the comment may have been very negative, but Amazon is after all a commercial venture trying to sell books - another reason not to use these I think. Unless our readers can actually see the entire source, I don't think these are verifiable and thus should not be used. (No one is accusing Amazon of lying, by the way, although one editor seems to have thought that was being done). Ironically, I was involved in a disagreement about this in another article recently, where I was able to find the original source. Part of the problem here is that there seem to be no published scholarly reviews of the book, which is probably why some editors are so keen to include these (unless you count, as several editors have, the book's introduction as a review).Thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 08:34, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Daniel Pipes,just as an example, writes book reviews in Amazon for books he has read [11]. His opinion carries some weight, good or bad. Wouldn't the fact of a well-known historian or academic reviewing another's work be valid in speaking to notability? I would not make a blanket "no-cite" ....even blurbs are not usually offered by people who do not respect another's work. It's an issue of intellectual integrity. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 05:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an outgrowth of a discussion I had recently. I'm wondering if book or music reviews (assume that they are printed in reputable publications) are themselves RS for purposes other than saying in the article on the book or movie what kind of reviews they got. For example, [15]here I removed a matter sourced to a book review. Thoughts?-- Wehwalt ( talk) 22:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
What is the consensus on interviews that are conducted by a normally non reliable source? Specifically this interview for Kevjumba. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) ( contribs) 02:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
http://www.tvbythenumbers.com is a website that tracks Nielsen Ratings like no other website on the Internet that is open to the public. In August alone, The New York Times had it in their sources list, quoted one of its editors, as did The NY Post, TV Week and the Fox Broadcasting Company and listed-in-Google News-websites Broadcasting Engineering, NewTeeVee and Contact Music. Why can't I just use other websites for ratings? Because their numbers are less precise, get archived or do not have specific ratings. e.g. At http://www.abcmedianet.com, preliminary ratings are released to the nearest ten thousand television viewers, whereas TV by the Numbers releases the numbers to the nearest thousand and they upload the final ratings a few weeks later. This is rarely done on other websites and when it is, the numbers match those on TV by the Numbers, so it has been proven that they are not pulling our legs. This is the second time that this has been posted (see above: "In August…"), but last time, no one responded and I need this tro pass to take an article back to FAC. For an example of how TV by the Numbers is cited in an article, see the first two sentences in The Other Woman (Lost)#Reception. Thanks, – thedemonhog talk • edits 18:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
the sources listed did not state any specific survey that these percentages are associated with nor did they cite the number of participants in said survey
example of article
One book estimated that 24% of men and 36% of women have had a rape fantasy, and 10% of women report this to be their favorite type of fantasy.[2]
example of sources 1. ^ Rape fantasy or domination and submission desires? | Scarleteen 2.^ mentalhelp.net 3.^ Crépault C, Couture M (1980). "Men's erotic fantasies". Arch Sex Behav 9 (6): 565–81. doi:10.1007/BF01542159. PMID 7458662. 4.^ a b c Ravenstone, Desmond. Ravishment: The Dark Side of Erotic Fantasy (2005) ISBN 1-4116-5547-8
none of the sources above include said survey
I am interested in whether a newspaper in a country without a free press can be considered a RS on news events? Specifically, I would ask about the Jordan Times, a newspaper that Freedom House considers "partly free" for the year in question. However I am more interested in the broader question. Thanks for any thoughts. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 14:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Note that free=/=reliable and unfree=/=unreliable. I would think this is obvious. I also think that Freedom House rankings are full of shit, personally. Last year, IIRC, Pakistan's noisily critical press was declared as unfree as China's, and India -- with draconian freedom of speech regulations and a very active press council -- was declared "partly free". Load of rot. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 20:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the Jordan Times is controlled by the government. That makes it absolutely off limits, except when it is referencing itself or it has something to do with official Jordanian government policy. In general, non-free presses should be avoided, especially on controversial issues. IronDuke 23:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Another perspective: there is no one-size-fits-all answer to this question. Hugo Chavez got a law installed in Venezuela prohibiting criticism of *him* in the press, and has gotten television stations not favorable towards him shut down, while there remains a large state-dominated media machine. The press is not free in Venezuela; specifically, private enterprises cannot criticize Hugo Chavez, and leading private newspapers now often avoid identifying journalists in bylines. Do these restrictions mean that Venezuelan press articles aren't reliable on every other score, excepting that they aren't allowed to criticize Chavez? No, it just means that non-Venezuelan sources have to be used to complement what Venezuelan sources aren't allowed to report, and we have to use editorial judgment in interpreting Venezuelan sources, wrt 1) the state-owned enterprises and 2) limits on privately owned press freedom. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Press sources that are not independent or are arms of the government like Granma should be used only to express the opinion of the controling entity, and sparingly at that. They should never be used for facts. Freedom House's rankings are a good place to start in evaluating media outlets. CENSEI ( talk) 22:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
It's hard to see IronDuke's approach as being anything other than a way of excluding media sources from countries which you don't like. If you want to describe a particular country's point of view about an issue, then of course media from that country is likely to be the best source. Your approach simply assumes that everything published in the media of a country such as Jordan is inherently inaccurate. Of course, coverage of certain topics may be biased or incomplete due to ideological preferences about the topic in question. You would not necessarily look to the Russian press for unbiased coverage of the war in Georgia, for instance. But it's taking it to a ridiculous extreme to apply this sort of caution to every story in every media outlet in a particular country. Are Jordanian sports reports off-limits? How about reports on cultural or economic affairs? What about political matters involving countries outside the Middle East?
As well as that, the "IronDuke standard" is ridiculously ill-defined. What counts as "censored media"? Israel's media are heavily censored about issues to do with security matters; does that make it off-limits? Many consider Britain's media to be muzzled by very strict libel laws. India has a very active press commission. Thailand's media is distorted by political ownership and subject to drastic limitations in certain areas. In fact, if you look at Reporters without Borders' list of press freedom for 2007, Jordan is actually ranked higher than many "westernised" countries, including Thailand, the Philippines, Mexico and so on. It's in a roughly equal position with India. How about it, IronDuke - are you going to argue that the whole of the Mexican and Indian media should be excluded? Where do you draw the line? Considering who's brought this up, it's clear that this whole thing is just an attempt to exclude the reporting of one side in the Arab-Israeli conflict; nobody should take it seriously. -- ChrisO ( talk) 01:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I know this has probably been brought up before but what is the reliability of a myspace blog? (The situation: The birth year of Alex O'Loughlin has never been reliably pinned down but on what is presumably his myspace page he blogged clarifying his birth year.) My first thought is to say no to the use of myspace personally, but the section on 'self-published and questionable sources about themselves' makes me hesitant on this. Should/can this be used as a source or not? -- ImmortalGoddezz ( t/ c) 19:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Here are some links and quotes calling into question the reliability of NBA list heights Sports Illustrated - Heights of Hilarity Sporting News - Predraft height hype is out of hand NYtimes - When Height Becomes a Tall Tale Draft Express - A historical look at Pre Draft Measurements
From Sporting News "A sampling of current NBA players measured by the league in advance of the annual draft shows their teams have doctored the heights for 12 of 15 -- 80 percent. Only one of the names I picked at random -- Kevin Durant -- is listed precisely at his barefoot height (6-9). Chris Paul's height is rounded up from 5-11 3/4 to 6-0, which counts as a square deal. "
From Sports Illustrated "It was in the run-up to the 1992 Olympics that the world finally learned what the cognoscenti had long suspected -- that Charles Barkley was more like 6-4 5/8 than 6-6, and Magic Johnson closer to 6-7 than 6-9. Likewise, it was a measurement in 1988 before the Games (citius, altius -- but not unduly altius) that exposed Danny Manning, who had been a 6-11 freshman at Kansas, as a 6-9 NBA draftee-to-be. "
From NY Times " “They lie,” said Charles Barkley, a basketball commentator for TNT. “I’ve been measured at 6-5, 6-4 ¾. But I started in college at 6-6.” Even the N.B.A. lies, apparently. According to Barkley’s biography on NBA.com, he is 6-6." and "Sam Smith, a longtime N.B.A. writer who recently retired from The Chicago Tribune, said: “We sort of know the heights, because after camp, the sheet comes out. But you use that height, and the player gets mad. And then you hear from his agent. Or you file your story with the right height, and the copy desk changes it because they have the ‘official’ N.B.A. media guide, which is wrong. So you sort of go along with the joke.”"
From Draftexpress "A human’s height does not include the addition of shoes, so it’s misleading when a player chooses to be listed at their in shoes height. The NBA has also done a poor job listing players consistently across the board. Many players are listed at their height in shoes, but some are listed at their barefoot height, and some are listed above their in shoes height (John Starks) or an inch below their barefoot height (Kevin Garnett, Desmond Mason)."
I think I've made a strong case of showing that the NBA does not list heights accurately - and that draftcamp measurements (which are generally freely available) are a much more reliable source (since the NBA official guides have a poor record for fact checking and accuracy from sports journalists in relation to height), feel free to look up your favorite players' heights here DraftExpress Pre Draft Measurements and compare to their official team roster height. Zzmang ( talk) 12:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
One more source Many players in NBA are telling tall stories Quotes " The NBA doesn't measure players, which is probably why 1993 Most Valuable Player Charles Barkley got away with being listed at 6-foot- 6. Many who played against Barkley said he was, at most, 6- 4. "
" NBA spokesman Tim Frank said the league counts on its teams to give accurate measurements of their players"
" The NBA's top official isn't about to call for league-mandated measurements of players. Commissioner David Stern, whose height isn't listed in the NBA guide but was once estimated at 5-foot-9, said the disparity between reality and hype only adds to the intrigue of the game. " Zzmang ( talk) 00:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Pursuant to this discussion over these edits, is a screencap of a source appropriate, as User:70.108.115.9 suggests? My guess is that it isn't, but I said I'd ask here. If so, how would it be used? Uploaded to a site like ImageShack and then linked to? Nightscream ( talk) 22:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
On the page about the Israel Supreme Court building there is a picture of this building that shows CLEARLY a pyramid with an circular window at the top of each face. This picture was considered as verified.
I just added a note below the picture to point to the presence of this pyramid. My note was erased on the pretext that it is not verifiable. To be honest I consider this the same as the well documented Zionist media control that we all know but refuse to discuss about.
The picture used to be at the top right in poor resolution was improved and brought away from immediate view. Another disinformation tactic or a chance event ? 911allo ( talk) 12:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the contradictions between the Luzon Empire and Ancient Tondo articles, I'd like to solicit comment about the source used by the Luzon Empire to say:
"Some contemporary Philippine historians[6] agree with their Chinese counterparts, and are willing to speculate further that after the fall of Nan Song (南宋國, "Southern Song Empire"), Zhang Shijie's fleet and the last Song emperor may have escaped to pre-colonial Philippines and established the Luzon Empire or the Lesser Song Empire (呂宋國)."
The reference says
"Pangilinan, et al on the initial translations of DongXi Yanggao<!-- is this the same as ''A study of the Eastern and Western Oceans''?--> ( 東西洋考, Book 5.)"
The article has no other reference by Pangilinan, whose interpretation of the DongXi Yanggao reference is supposed to be the argument referred to. My question is whether this source is sufficient to merit the continued existence of Luzon Empire when Ancient Tondo, which sticks to the more orthodox interpretation, already exists. I'm sorry if this also happens to be an Original Research question, but I've raised the matter there already and what I'm asking for here specifically is whether this source justifies the existence of the Luzon Empire article. Thanks. Alternativity ( talk) 18:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
How should ETC [www.etc.se] be used in articles? I can hardly find any info on the magazine, but it seems to be a partisan publication of the socialist left in Sweden. Troopedagain ( talk) 02:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Would articles that appear on E! Online be considered reliable for news about celebrity and reality TV stars? BaldPete ( talk) 17:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Is the NGO Zochrot, or "Nakba in Hebrew" a RS? From their web-site: "Zochrot ["Remembering"] is a group of Israeli citizens working to raise awareness of the Nakba, the Palestinian catastrophe of 1948". I encounter edits like this: [18], [19]. Again; this NGO has never AFAIK been discussed here before, so I would very much like to hear your opinion. Regards, Huldra ( talk) 17:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Are chronicles from the 1600s and 1700s reliable sources? In my opinion, even quoting from such an old source directly (i.e. without a secondary source acting as a filter) is original research, because words change their meaning over such long periods of time (either by losing some of their original meanings or being enriched with new meanings the original author never intended to use). Of course, if the meaning is undisputed within the community then that isn't a problem, but what's the proper course of action if the meaning is disputed? -- Gutza T T+ 13:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Follow-up question: if the quotation of such a source is disputed by other editors, is it reasonable to seek consensus by eliminating said source in favor of a secondary source, or is that an unacceptable proposal? -- Gutza T T+ 23:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
It all depends on availability of reliable academic interpretations. Once you dig into a relatively small academic field with plenty of nationalist agendas, they become a dying breed. However, the 1600s-1700s sources are too recent to cause any misunderstanding to present-day native Romanians, just like an average Englishman can keep the track of a Hamlet play. Plus, Costin was not a monk so his mind was not as rigidly indoctrinated as that of a monastic chrohist and he apparently did not insert biblical riddles in the text (the first thing to remember reading older Eastern European chronicles). To me, translation/interpretation of his statement is not a problem at all. It's all about presentation - whether it's a one man's opinion or something larger. I would take his words for what they are worth: that, in Costin's opinion at the time of writing ... then follow his point. Nothing more. NVO ( talk) 22:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
p.s. I think that naming a 17th-century politician and pamphletist a chronist is itself a cause of conflict. Chronist invokes medieval standards of passing (copying, altering, synthesizing) knowledge of past centuries through compiled chronicles; a 17th century text is quite different, it's an original work. NVO ( talk) 22:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Is this considered a reliable enough source for Wikipedia's purposes. NanohaA'sYuri Talk, My master 02:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Can The Electronic Intifada be used as a reliable source? I am working on Cinema of Palestine, and there is one editor there that disagree: [20] I cannot see that EI has been discussed here before, (see: Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Links to reliable sources discussions), therefor I would very much like to hear your opinion. Regards, Huldra ( talk) 17:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, some of the UFO-enthusiasts who have been stymied by the original research rule have gone over to WikiNews and begun "reporting" on UFO sightings. Then they come back here and add their sighting to List of UFO sightings with a citation to Wikinews. I think this is very smelly. Does anyone else? How should I handle the removal of Wikinews-cited UFO sightings. Also, can someone alert Wikinews people that they are being used in this way?
(Cross posted to WP:NORN.)
ScienceApologist ( talk) 13:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
This section "Claims of Korean ancestry" at Hibari Misora contains no reliable references. The edit summary shows that most edits have tried to remove it for that reason. The article has not had many editors, so I decided to improve it. This user "Caspian_blue" [21] directly added that one section back into the article. I find that odd, because the user has the article of their watch list, but they have not edited the article before.
I tried to create a discussion with the user, and for them to explain how the references are reliable. However the user deletes my posts, makes rude comments, and ignores the question. Stating the references are "RELIABLE" and that I am page blanking, creating dishonest edit summaries, falsely labeling, and leaves me numerous warnings, and threats of being blocked. This was after I included many notable references to update the article.
The section in general is just nonsense, as none of the references are notable. However the book reference in particular is misleading, as this book "美空ひばり時代を歌う" does not mention anything about such a topic. It is impossible to find any information relating to the "weekly newspapers" which apparently wrote about it. The Korean newspaper isn't even named. The English reference is just a personal website about Japanese music, last updated in May 2007. The final references are from a Korean site, and using googles web translator, it appears the title says that 70% of the Japanese entertainment industry is actually Korean. It seems to be an anti-nationality statement, and an opinionated editorial. In addition, the user "Casbian Blue" appears to have an anti-Japanese persona, judging from this users activity.
I don't feel it belongs in the article, and that it is bait for prejudice vandalism. Trying to find any source relating to such a thing is almost impossible. 220.253.40.233 ( talk) 20:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Is a University Thesis by someone about another person that is passed away considered to be a reliable source? Vivaldi27 ( talk) 19:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
(out indent, EC)
Example of an unacceptable PhD. I just searched googlebooks for sources and found a full-text rendition of a PhD thesis that looked like a thoroughly researched, spot-on source on topic... until I found that it cites guess what - wikipedia - and on a gregarious scale ( go figure). At page 387 the author even argues that wikipedia has more or less quality than paper encyclopedias. Why in the world a thesis needs to cite encyclopedias? beats me. This one is from Oslo School of Engineering and Design. NVO ( talk) 15:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like to bring attention to various maps of Caucasus region (Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan), which are apparently made by a blogger named Andrew Andersen, who claims to be a PhD. Here is the list of images, all sourced from the same so called "Atlas of Conflicts" website of his, which are rather frivolous and unsubstantiated by any scholarly source on the subject. There are many other available historical maps of the region, which can be used with much better, established, reference base.
There might be some others from the same source, that I can find in Wikipedia.
According to WP:VERIFIABILITY, in particular section on self published sources: "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable."
In fact, according to these sources [22], [23] from University of Victoria newspaper, Andrew Andersen is known as formerly sessional professor at the University of Victoria, who was removed from his position for "racism and prejudice against minorities, Muslims in particular in May 2003". There is a substantial body of past discussion on the subject here, and this is some interesting input/info from an administrator back then [24].
I think provided how much edit warring conflicts these maps have led to all across Wikipedia, it's time to find less controversial and truly scholarly sources. Removal of some of these controversial and baseless maps may greatly assist in lowering tensions in Armenia-Azerbaijan editing conflicts. Thanks. Atabəy ( talk) 17:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It should be pointed out that neither Atabek or Grandmaster have said what they think is inaccurate about all these maps. In fact, they have deliberately avoided doing it. They attack the source of the content rather than the content itself. A discussion of one of the maps took place here Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Dubious_map_by_dubious_Andersen. I gave an analysis of the accuracy of the map there, neither of them bothered to reply. That was probably because the real reason for their objection is not that the maps are in any substantial way inaccurate for their purpose here, but that certain of the maps indicate borders or regions which disagree with their POV warring aims. The Andersen maps do not seem to disagree substantially with similar maps published in other sources. The difference is that, because of their licensing, the Andersen maps are available to be used within Wikipedia articles but those from the other sources can't be used. In essence, Atabek is attempting to manipulate Wikipedia procedures in order to censor Wikipedia. Meowy 18:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Interesting as Meowy feels that he is qualified to determine who has or does not have certain rights... Anyways, I would like to request a third party opinion regarding maps of blogger-claiming-to-be-scholar Andersen "PhD". These maps seriously fuel conflicts on Caucasus subjects, are not neutral and need to be removed and replaced with maps by legitimate established scholars. Thanks. Atabəy ( talk) 17:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
We have a small conflict on List of Heroes episodes where someone adds titles sourced to Netflix. Problem is, it's a paid subscrubtion site. Unlike (subscription) magazines, where you can walk into a shop or library to verify the source, Netflix only allows access to their catalogue if you are a paying member, making it impossible for ayone else to verify the source. This is why I keep removing those title, but other pose that Netflix is a usable source, even if it is payed access only. Opinions? — Edokter • Talk • 13:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Would Thesmokinggun.com be considered reliable, particularly with regard to their supposed speciality, the legal troubles of celebrities?
If not, two further questions.
Would it be fair to include information from the web site if is confirmed by the copies they have of court and arrests records?
Would it be fair to include information from an accepted reliable source such as the Associated Press if AP article was based on what appeared on Thesmokinggun.com? BaldPete ( talk) 16:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Is WikiPilipinas considered a reliable source for a) in-text references, or b) External Links sections? I noticed a lot of links to various pages on it, and such a large collection needs some community input rather than one editor making any potentially damaging decisions. Orpheus ( talk) 06:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
There's a dispute on Cyrus cylinder about the use of http://www.savepasargad.com, the website of the "International Committee to Save the Archeological Sites of Pasarga", as a source. It sticks out like a sore thumb, as literally every one of the other 59 sources used in the article is an academic work. Specifically, two pieces by a Canadian-Iranian linguist are being cited (see [25] and [26]). The problems I perceive with the website are:
Any thoughts? -- ChrisO ( talk) 08:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
-- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 08:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I'm coordinating an educational project ( North of the Río Grande), and for one of the articles, on the Chilean-Canadian writer Carmen Rodriguez, my students have shown the immense initiative of getting in touch with the author herself. They therefore met her, and interviewed her at length (three hours), an interview which they recorded. Thanks to that interview, they therefore have a number of sources that we want to ask about. They include:
These sources are not needed to establish the author's notability, but as the intent is to take this article to GAN, and hopefully even FAC, we would like the article to be as comprehensive as possible. Obviously, these unconventional sources are a goldmine. Can the students use them, and if so how? Or if not, are there any precedents or workarounds? Many thanks. -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 22:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent, copied over from User talk:SandyGeorgia:) Yes, I feared as much. In fact, mind you, I think the taboo that's being broken here is less WP:V than WP:OR. After all, research (particularly historical and scientific research) for instance, relies precisely on primary sources: letters, interviews, diaries, as well as experiments, lab notes, and so on. It's not that the students are drawing on personal experience--per the example of an eyewitness report of an accident--let alone a waking dream. In fact, they are being suitably scholarly in searching out primary and unpublished sources. It's just that when scholars do this, their reputation and training is what provides verifiability. Here on Wikipedia, because these are sources that nobody else can access, they are regarded on unreliable.
NB the use of primary sources would not make Wikipedia a primary source; it would make it a secondary source, along the lines of the sources that Wikipedia itself uses. But Wikipedia's goal is to be a tertiary source, that relies on (usually scholarly or journalistic) secondary sources.
I do wonder, however, how much leeway is provided by the final paragraph at WP:PSTS: "Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are more suitable on any given occasion is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on article talk pages." -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
This diff here is what I'm referencing. A blog has been cited previously, and now the editor is citing another article on Wiki after I informed him that the blog wasn't reliable. I have objections to including the information about how Colby Donaldson should have been kicked off of the show based on these rules (that so far haven't been properly sourced) when it seems to be original research and we don't know what went on behind the scenes. Any thoughts on this from users or admins more experienced? Atlantabravz ( talk) 01:11, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Considering it's gained awards, reputation and is editored. Is there a point where a serious professional blog site becomes reliable? Are these sites any less reliable than a newspaper? --neon white talk 10:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
there are no citations for putting this disorder in gender categories or links that show any symptom differentiality in patients due to gender
In females Women with HPD are described as self-centered, self-indulgent, and intensely dependent on others. They are emotionally labile and cling to others in the context of immature relationships. As well, they over-identify with others; they project their own unrealistic, fantasized intentions onto people with whom they are involved. They are emotionally shallow to avoid distress and have difficulty understanding themselves or others in any depth. Selection of marital or sexual partners is often highly inappropriate. The majority of the time their partners will have symptoms of personality disorders, equal to, or far worse than their own. Women with HPD often tend to enter into abusive relationships with partners who increase the abuse as time wears on. Pathology increases with the level of intimacy in relationships, which is exactly the same for males. Women may show inappropriate and intense anger masking their internal battle between the quest for intimacy and avoiding pathology. Women with borderline tendencies often form entirely negative convictions towards the male gender and treat them like pawns as a defense mechanism concealing their own inadequacies. They may engage in self-mutilation and/or manipulative suicide threats as one aspect of general manipulative interpersonal behavior.[2]
In males
Males with HPD usually present problems of identity crisis, disturbed relationships, and lack of impulse control. They have antisocial tendencies and are inclined to exploit physical symptoms as a method of false control. These men are emotionally immature (although they tend to believe the exact opposite), dramatic (although many are adept at covering it up), and shallow (although they tend to believe their feelings are so deep that no other single person could ever understand). Men with HPD may dwell on their own emotions and create a false sense of reality, effectively convincing themselves of whatever they need to believe to feel comfortable in their relationships. HPD males with antisocial tendencies shift between periods of isolation and those of extreme social conquest (each shift can last a matter of days to periods lasting several years). They may require isolated retreats in order to obtain a comfortable level of understanding and acceptable functioning. HPD antisocial males are dependent upon no one in particular, but crave the dependence of others. Although males often have chameleon-like social skills (similar to HPD females), they tend to have trouble keeping lengthy friendships afloat as their paranoia (real and imagined) may eventually lead to a near complete and permanent disposal of all interpersonal relationships at a given time, effectively eliminating any emotional responsibility and accountability. They tend to genuinely search for intimacy (many believe in "the one") while remaining unable to regulate their perceived level of intimacy for any given interpersonal relationship, making it very difficult to build anything other than turbulent relations. Males with HPD may believe in the supernatural, such as fortune telling or telepathy, including the belief that there are many hidden messages and notions in public works that are specifically meant for them. When HPD antisocial males believe they are being manipulated, they may morph into sociopathic relations with their perceived enemies, yet remain overtly loyal to perceived friends. HPD men are oftentimes intensely driven by their quest to conquer life, despite having no real sense of direction or control, resulting in frequent changes of overly passionate interests. [2] Both men and women with HPD engage in disinhibited behavior, such as promiscuity and substance abuse.[3]
Now, I understand that the website Japanreview.net has significant connections to Debito Arudou. I have the feeling that citing it is appropriate in Arudou's case because Arudou let an editor from the website look at his rough draft; another editor from the site gave a negative review his final book. Also I read C S and JReadings rationale. Anyway, I just want to triple check that the source can be used, so please look at the talk page and confirm or deny the rationale here. Thanks WhisperToMe ( talk) 04:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
How is a self-published book review from a credible author any worse than a book review from an equally credible author published in a newspaper? If we can't allow something because it is someone's stated opinion, then does the article not have undue weight by having only book reviews which praise? If there is no criticism, there shouldn't necessarily be any praise in the article either, even if that source is deemed reliable. The359 ( talk) 20:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Japanreview.net is not a real source under Wikipedia rules, no matter how you try to dress it up (it's a website, and a defunct one at that). The Japan Times is a real source (it's a major newspaper in Japan that's been around for more than a century). Let's stop trying to put lipstick on a pig.
Moreover, are we arguing with a straight face that we cannot allow praise unless criticism exists? This also falls foul of Wikipedia rules. Arudoudebito ( talk) 22:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have added a request for comment section about this: Talk:Debito_Arudou#Request_for_Comment:_Should_Japanreview.net_be_used_as_a_source.3F - After this, if there is a consensus, it will stick. WhisperToMe ( talk) 19:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that a lot of articles refer to the old Catholic Encyclopedia (published, I think, around 1913). Like the 1911 ed of the Encyclopedia Britanica, the old CE is noted for its high scholarship and depth of coveage on topics. However, like the 1911 EB, it is dated. This leads to a problem... In many cases the old CE is being used as a citation for statements about modern Catholic scholarship or opinion. I think we need some discussion about how reliable such old encyclopediae are. My personal view is that, while they can be reliable, their reliability is limited. We need to develop a consensus about when they should, and when they should not be used. Blueboar ( talk) 18:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
At Kaveh Farrokh there is an attempt to use a news report on a film World: Oliver Stone's 'Alexander' Stirs Up Controversy by Golnaz Esfandiari as a reliable source to say that the subject is an expert in the fields of history and linguistics. This diff [28] is the one in question. Ignoring the fact that RFE is a private organisation but government funded, I don't see how this specific article is a reliable source for his expertise. Particularly as his PhD is from a Department of Educational and Counselling Psychology, he works as an educational counsellor, his professional writing is about dyslexia and his PhD I think about language acquisition, to call him an expert in linguistics on the basis of newspaper articles doesn't work for me, although it obviously works for other editors. He has no qualfications in history or linguistics, although he has written 2 books on history. I hesitated bringing it here because this is also being discussed at [29] where I posted this morning, but as my edit was reverted on the grounds RFE is a RS for this claim, I've brought it here as the issue is whether this article can be used for these specific claims. Thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 16:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently working on HIStory and it's corresponding singles and album tracks that have their own article. I plan to get them all to featured or good states so every detail available is important. Jackson gave a very rare but informative interview to MTV here. Unfortunately it's just the video and I haven't been able to find a transcript of the interview. Could I still use it as a source, since it's an official interview with MTV and if so, how would I go about sourcing it? Cheers. — Realist 2 18:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
One of the issues I have in articles is Ad hominem quotes like this one in the Jesus myth article: "No reputable scholar today questions that a Jew named Jesus son of Joseph lived; most readily admit that we now know a considerable amount about his actions and basic teachings ..." (Charlesworth, James H. (ed.) (2006). Jesus and Archaeology. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.) There are several problems with this quote in particular: possible Wikipedia:Libel as it basically states that anyone that questions the idea "Jew named Jesus son of Joseph lived" is not reputable scholar (even among the Historical Jesus group there are those who dispute the 'son of Joseph' part so are they somehow unreliable scholars? The logic here is circular in any case: anyone who supports this theory is not a "reputable scholar" because no "reputable scholar" would support this theory), Wikipedia:Neutral point of view issues as the statement is an Ad hominem attack and doesn't really add anything to an encyclopedia article, WP:V issues as Charlesworth is the editor of the very book in which his comment appears and Eerdmans presents themselves as "Publisher of religious books, from academic works in theology, biblical studies, religious history and reference to popular titles in spirituality, social and cultural criticism, and literature." creating COI concerns. The quote has been put back in with claims that Charlesworth is an "expert in biblical archaeology" failing to explain what supports this and later that Eerdmans is "reputable academic publisher" something not even claimed at Eerdmans' own web site. More troubling is this review by Jonathan Reed from University of La Verne in Review of Biblical Literature 10/2007: "One minor criticism must be raised: scattered throughout the book are numerous illustrations, mostly from Charlesworth’s collection, which, although at times helpful, at other times seem misplaced or could be replaced with something more appropriate. So we see, for example, a bichrome Canaanite decanter in Klassen’s article on Sidonian Greek-inscribed glass, or the excavations at Cana in Kloppenborg’s article, but none at all of the Theodotos inscription whose letters are analyzed in a way that is hard to visualize without a picture. Of course by using his own photos, Charlesworth was able to keep the cost down, so that at $50.00 for over seven hundred pages, we should be thankful." When an editor is given this kind of free reign one has a right to call the work "self published" especially when you have things like a Canaanite decanter picture being used in a Sidonian Greek-inscribed glass article. Good grief, that is insane as even a courtesy investigation by John Q Surfer shows the Canaanite culture extending a far greater range in both time and region than the Sidonian culture. That is almost akin to using a picture of an Olmec artifact in an article on the Zapotecs and makes one again wonder about the "reputable academic publisher" claim.
On a more general level I would like to see Ad hominem quotes forbidden regardless of subject matter or source as I can not see any reasonable use for one in any article. They don't really add anything to an article, they serve as a lightning rod preventing article improvement, and they may have other issues as well. The fact you don't see such quotes in articles on other fringe theories like Flat Earth, Creationism, or New Chronology (Fomenko-Nosovsky) raises the question of why are Ad hominem quotes in the Jesus myth article and why editors are fighting to keep them in when better quotes exist. Even in the heated issue of Holocaust denial you have "reputable historian" used in the context of methodology rather than regarding people who hold to Holocaust denial itself.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 08:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Several dozen rugby league articles, such as Gareth Ellis, have been edited to include a blog source from this site. Other reliable third party sources such as this from a news outlet are available to support the same information for the same player. Is the user-generated blog acceptable when other sources are available? Thanks, • Florrie• leave a note• 12:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
There is some disagreement at Kaveh Farrokh on whether a bio published in a conference program constitutes a reliable independent source. An edit I made in which I called this an "autobiography" was reverted as being " WP:OR, because the bio does not mention by whom it was written. However, nobody will tell you that you're doing OR if you call a bio posted on someones own webpage an autobio, even if the author isn't mentioned. I don't know of any conference (and certainly not one of modest means such as this one seems to be - their website does not even have its own URL, but is hosted on a university server) that will research someone's bio themselves. Conference organizers invariably ask participants to send a short bio themselves (which they then may or may not edit, for instance to fit a page). In the present case, the item cited from this bio constitutes a high school award, hardly something that a conference organizer would go to great lengths to uncover (disregarding the fact that I have not been able to find this award anywhere, except on the original conference site and in Wikipedia and mirror sites). Anyway, the case boils down to whether a biography published in a conference program is a reliable independent source for anything. I would appreciate the opinion of the community on this. Thanks. -- Crusio ( talk) 21:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
So I've encountered a user who has argued that an IMDB page, a myspace page and a personal website are reliable/verifiable sources for a living person biography Kristen Aldridge. I had been citing WP:SPS and WP:SELFPUB # 3 as why they don't apply I have this guy and an admin who seems to know the other saying they don't apply. I've reached my 3 edit limit for the article but was hoping some more experienced editors could chime in. Are these sources considered reliable? Tmore3 ( talk) 23:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Personal websites are definitely self-published. The non-user contributed parts of IMDB are probably OK. lk ( talk) 09:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I've taken the position that such sources are usable under WP:SELFPUB with use of inline citations.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 17:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I'm working on Casu marzu, and there's a ref left over from another editor here. Is it reliable? It's from the The Ohio Naturalist, from 1914. Thanks. Intothewoods29 ( talk) 03:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Let's say one book quotes and sources another book to which I don't have access. May that quoted information be presumed to be reliable and if so, should it be sourced to the original book, sourced to the book by way of the source that quotes it or sourced to the RS to which I have access? I relaize that reads a bit confusing; I've confused myself just writing it. For example, Smith page 50 quotes Jones page 10. Can I include the information and if so should the cite be <ref>Jones p. 10</ref>, <ref>Jones p. 10 quoted on Smith p. 50</ref>, <ref>Smith p. 50</ref> or something I haven't thought of? And in the bibliography section, should Jones and Smith be listed separately, should Jones be mentioned as included in Smith or should it just be Smith? Otto4711 ( talk) 08:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
That seems fine to me. It is common enough to cite direct quotes in this fashion (where one published work is quoting another). In both of those instances it is expected that the intermediate work be cited per WP:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. Both the original and the intermediate work are expected to be reliable (or the original is a primary work that the intermediate work interprets). The APA style guide mentions basically how to do it. That can easily be adapted for WP footnote style. Protonk ( talk) 13:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Semitransgenic ( talk) 14:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
According to my analysis, the article lists 201 different source locations. Of these, 35 (not 93) are pages in Fox. However, it is true that some of these pages have multiple citations. Overall, the article has, according to my reckoning, 347 individual source citations. Of those, 98 are to Fox. So there would seem to be some potential justification in raising the question of undue weight. To check if this is borne out by the facts, let us look at what is actually cited to Fox, taking each citation in turn, from the beginning.
This covers the first 33 citations to Fox. As the article grew, I used Fox as a convenience cite for several reasons: Her book is short and contains the essential outline of Osho's life. Second, it is, unlike FitzGerald or Carter, strictly choronological, making it easy to find things. Third, having been written quite recently, it is one of the few books that covers all of Osho's life, from his birth to his death. Fourth, along with FitzGerald, Fox was one of the first sources I bought for working on this article.
There is nothing cited to Fox in the above that could not just as easily be cited to Carter, FitzGerald, Joshi, or Gordon.
CESNUR is an organisation of mainstream scholars of religion. According to this Oxford University Press publication, CESNUR is a recommended source of objective information on new religious movements. The same publication also mentions that Massimo Introvigne lectures at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome.
"Judith Fox (= Judith Thompson, = Judith Coney) holds a doctorate in the sociology of religion from the London School of Economics, University of London. For more than twenty years, she has researched new religions, culminating in such books as The Way of the Heart: A Study of Rajneeshism and Sahaja Yoga. She edits a series on new religions from Curzon Press." [31] Cheers, Jayen 466 16:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I have hidden the above discussion. Please continue this discussion on the NPOV noticeboard (where I notice it is cross-posted) or else rephrase your question to be about source reliability. Undue weight and NPOV are not issues for this board. PelleSmith ( talk) 20:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
An RfC has started on whether the word "terrorism" can be mentioned and discussed in the article space of several articles, and the question of whether or not the sourcing is adequate. Editors knowledgeable about WP:RS would be welcome at Talk:Weatherman (organization)/Terrorism RfC]. Many sources have been provided in the article, most recently at the top and bottom of the RfC page. Articles affected are Bill Ayers, Weatherman (organization), Bernardine Dohrn, and Obama-Ayers controversy. Please comment there, not here. -- Noroton ( talk) 18:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Besides Lew Rockwell, more than 350 of our articles link to lewrockwell.com (list at User:Tom harrison/rockwell-links.) How many of these are appropriate and useful? Tom Harrison Talk 14:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Some of the articles linking to lewrockwell.com include Winston Churchill, Zora Neal Hurston, Inoculation, Elvis Presley, and Caffeine. Tom Harrison Talk 17:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I gather that The Comics Journal is generally considered reliable. Is it a problem when they put Wikipedia in their bibliography for an article? In "Stop, My Butt Hurts!" The Yaoi Invasion (NSFW), they cite perhaps this version of Yuri and this version of Yaoi. Is it okay to selectively use parts of the TCJ article which don't bear resemblance to those old article versions? - Malkinann ( talk) 02:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Is a documentary by Phoenix TV on Reports of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China reliable source? This is disputed on that article as the transcript was originally hosted on a so-called Chinese propaganda site by FLG practitioners but is verifiable that such programme exists (heck you could download the whole documentary from the net) and I have personally verified the transcript (accurate, although the translation is a bit shoddy). Please also see Talk:Reports of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China#Phoenix Television for the full (and lengthy) discussion we've had. -- antilived T | C | G 22:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the question itself was phrased in a misleading manner. There is a widely documented, ongoing propaganda campaign against Falun Gong practitioners in China. The so called "pheonix TV video" being used as a source here is a video distributed by chinese consulates - the only thing is that it seems they had it aired on pheonix TV too. A major concern here is that the source itself is engaged in a big propaganda campaign. US Congress Resolution No. 188, Unanimously Passed, states : "propaganda from state-controlled media in the People's Republic of China has inundated the public in an attempt to breed hatred and discrimination[against Falun Gong]" Another analysis worth considering is the RSF report on CCP Propaganda.
In specific, There are two aspects to consider:
WP:RS states:
Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as extremist should be used only as sources about themselves and in articles about themselves or their activities, or where they are necessary to explain other groups or events; any information used must be directly relevant to the subject. The material taken from such sources should not be contentious, and it should not involve claims made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources. Articles should not be based primarily on such sources.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 06:20, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Do we agree that the source of the video is not the TV stations? It sounds like the stations merely aired it, so the context on how they aired it is probably worth explaining. i.e. which TV program was it aired during? Dilip rajeev is saying that is distributed by the Chinese consulates? Who created the video? John Vandenberg ( chat) 09:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Kindly allow me to point out the concerns I have with the particular piece. The section below, am copying from my discussion on the page's talk:
Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as extremist should be used only as sources about themselves and in articles about themselves or their activities, or where they are necessary to explain other groups or events; any information used must be directly relevant to the subject. The material taken from such sources should not be contentious, and it should not involve claims made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources. Articles should not be based primarily on such sources. - WP:RS
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 18:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Also kindly take into consideration these pages where Kilgour and Matas present evidence demonstrating the propagandistic nature of the video.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 18:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Is he a valid source for citing? Why or why not? JJ4sad6 ( talk) 13:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
The documentary The Other Side of AIDS received reviews in Variety and The Hollywood Reporter but people in the AFD discussion are saying that they are not reliable sources!! What would be a relaible source for films if not these newspapers?? miniluv ( talk) 18:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Back in July I asked if Vevmo was a reliable source, and it was resolved that it was not. Then in August, I asked if the MM Agency was reliable, and it was resolved that it was, though not for contentious claims or notability issues. Now, an editor added some info to The Real World: Brooklyn article. The source was MM, but MM indicated that its source was Vevmo. What do we do? Nightscream ( talk) 06:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Is members.aol.com a reliable source? Specifically this? Yes or No & why or why not please. Thanks. Jasynnash2 ( talk) 08:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. I didn't think it was but, was trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Thanks. Jasynnash2 ( talk) 10:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to edit the article on James D. Watson to include the fact that when he attempted to clarify his controversial comments about race and intelligence, his clarification was misreported by several media sources. For example, the journal Nature reported
Watson has apologized and retracted the outburst... He acknowledged that there is no evidence for what he claimed about racial differences in intelligence.
However, if one reads the original text of Watson's apology, it is quite clear that Watson did not state that there was no evidence for his opinion about race and intelligence. The closest he came to saying this was that there was no support for the notion that Africans were inferior in general, which is not what he had meant with his original comments. Since it is a very common misconception that Watson said what Nature claimed that he did, I would like the article about him to make mention of the fact that Nature's reporting on this was inaccurate.
This is not original research or original synthesis, because a number of well-known science blogs have covered this misreporting. The best-known of them is Gene Expression, arguably the most widely-respected blog that exists about genetics. However, the user Hardyplants has twice reverted my edit about this, saying that blogs cannot be considered a reliable source. I know that in most cases, information from blogs cannot be verified, but here the contradiction between Watson's apology and what Nature reported about it is visible to any observer. Can a well-known science blog such as Gene Expression be used as a source for something like this which is independently verifiable?
Captain Occam ( talk) 05:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
To those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologise unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief.
Comment - It seems a very odd policy that an article cannot accurately, truthfully and verifiably point out that the printed media is misrepresenting the subject of the article, when a well-respected source already points this out, but cannot be cited because it's a blog. Odder still that the basis for this is a heightened scrutiny for biographies of living persons, in part because such persons may have an action for defamation. So instead, we republish and perpetuate the misrepresentation, all in the service of a policy that's supposed to prevent exactly that. TJRC ( talk) 06:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
If the subject ( David Copperfield (illusionist)) of an article links from his website to [3] (the memorial site for Copperfield's father), would material in the rememberly site be considered a reliable source?-- The Red Pen of Doom 10:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
In Cyrus cylinder (concerning an ancient Babylonian artifact), I have quoted an explanatory text that the British Museum displays in front of the artifact in room 52 of the museum. I've verified this personally at the museum. The text is not officially online but a copy can be seen on Flickr (see [4]). Another editor, Tundrabuggy ( talk · contribs), is disputing the use of this source on grounds that are not entirely clear (he calls it "anecdotal" and "poorly sourced"). As far as I'm concerned, it's eminently reliable - it's from the institution which actually owns the artifact, it's published, it's on public display, and I would think it reasonable to consider the British Museum a source "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". What do other people think? -- ChrisO ( talk) 10:44, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Clarification of my position on this issue. ChrisO is using this text to assert that the British Museum is calling the Cyrus Cylinder "propaganda." I, on the other hand, have found three sources presumably from the British Museum in relation to the Cylinder (the first one appears to be the catalog comment) -- [5] [6] [7] and not one of these references use the term "propaganda." My problem is with linking the British Museum to the concept of "propaganda" which is later expanded upon at great length in the article, thus giving the impression that the interpretation given below in the "Propaganda" section is somehow sanctioned by the BM (pardon the abbreviation, no offense intended ;)) -- Tundrabuggy ( talk) 20:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Please stop this current line of discussion on this page -- the above digression is not an RS issue. Take it to the talk page. PelleSmith ( talk) 21:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This specifically involves the 'blurbs' here [8]. There is an ongoing dispute at Kaveh Farrokh and Shadows in the Desert: Persia at War about whether these can be included in the article as book reviews. Some editors including myself say no, others keep reinstating them. My argument is that we actually need to be able to verify them, and that means seeing the original sources. This is particularly important as they are selective and at the moment there is no way of knowing what the rest of the statement was. I see this as similar to the way critics' reviews are used on billboards for plays, etc. The rest of the comment may have been very negative, but Amazon is after all a commercial venture trying to sell books - another reason not to use these I think. Unless our readers can actually see the entire source, I don't think these are verifiable and thus should not be used. (No one is accusing Amazon of lying, by the way, although one editor seems to have thought that was being done). Ironically, I was involved in a disagreement about this in another article recently, where I was able to find the original source. Part of the problem here is that there seem to be no published scholarly reviews of the book, which is probably why some editors are so keen to include these (unless you count, as several editors have, the book's introduction as a review).Thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 08:34, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Daniel Pipes,just as an example, writes book reviews in Amazon for books he has read [11]. His opinion carries some weight, good or bad. Wouldn't the fact of a well-known historian or academic reviewing another's work be valid in speaking to notability? I would not make a blanket "no-cite" ....even blurbs are not usually offered by people who do not respect another's work. It's an issue of intellectual integrity. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 05:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an outgrowth of a discussion I had recently. I'm wondering if book or music reviews (assume that they are printed in reputable publications) are themselves RS for purposes other than saying in the article on the book or movie what kind of reviews they got. For example, [15]here I removed a matter sourced to a book review. Thoughts?-- Wehwalt ( talk) 22:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
What is the consensus on interviews that are conducted by a normally non reliable source? Specifically this interview for Kevjumba. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) ( contribs) 02:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
http://www.tvbythenumbers.com is a website that tracks Nielsen Ratings like no other website on the Internet that is open to the public. In August alone, The New York Times had it in their sources list, quoted one of its editors, as did The NY Post, TV Week and the Fox Broadcasting Company and listed-in-Google News-websites Broadcasting Engineering, NewTeeVee and Contact Music. Why can't I just use other websites for ratings? Because their numbers are less precise, get archived or do not have specific ratings. e.g. At http://www.abcmedianet.com, preliminary ratings are released to the nearest ten thousand television viewers, whereas TV by the Numbers releases the numbers to the nearest thousand and they upload the final ratings a few weeks later. This is rarely done on other websites and when it is, the numbers match those on TV by the Numbers, so it has been proven that they are not pulling our legs. This is the second time that this has been posted (see above: "In August…"), but last time, no one responded and I need this tro pass to take an article back to FAC. For an example of how TV by the Numbers is cited in an article, see the first two sentences in The Other Woman (Lost)#Reception. Thanks, – thedemonhog talk • edits 18:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
the sources listed did not state any specific survey that these percentages are associated with nor did they cite the number of participants in said survey
example of article
One book estimated that 24% of men and 36% of women have had a rape fantasy, and 10% of women report this to be their favorite type of fantasy.[2]
example of sources 1. ^ Rape fantasy or domination and submission desires? | Scarleteen 2.^ mentalhelp.net 3.^ Crépault C, Couture M (1980). "Men's erotic fantasies". Arch Sex Behav 9 (6): 565–81. doi:10.1007/BF01542159. PMID 7458662. 4.^ a b c Ravenstone, Desmond. Ravishment: The Dark Side of Erotic Fantasy (2005) ISBN 1-4116-5547-8
none of the sources above include said survey
I am interested in whether a newspaper in a country without a free press can be considered a RS on news events? Specifically, I would ask about the Jordan Times, a newspaper that Freedom House considers "partly free" for the year in question. However I am more interested in the broader question. Thanks for any thoughts. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 14:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Note that free=/=reliable and unfree=/=unreliable. I would think this is obvious. I also think that Freedom House rankings are full of shit, personally. Last year, IIRC, Pakistan's noisily critical press was declared as unfree as China's, and India -- with draconian freedom of speech regulations and a very active press council -- was declared "partly free". Load of rot. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 20:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the Jordan Times is controlled by the government. That makes it absolutely off limits, except when it is referencing itself or it has something to do with official Jordanian government policy. In general, non-free presses should be avoided, especially on controversial issues. IronDuke 23:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Another perspective: there is no one-size-fits-all answer to this question. Hugo Chavez got a law installed in Venezuela prohibiting criticism of *him* in the press, and has gotten television stations not favorable towards him shut down, while there remains a large state-dominated media machine. The press is not free in Venezuela; specifically, private enterprises cannot criticize Hugo Chavez, and leading private newspapers now often avoid identifying journalists in bylines. Do these restrictions mean that Venezuelan press articles aren't reliable on every other score, excepting that they aren't allowed to criticize Chavez? No, it just means that non-Venezuelan sources have to be used to complement what Venezuelan sources aren't allowed to report, and we have to use editorial judgment in interpreting Venezuelan sources, wrt 1) the state-owned enterprises and 2) limits on privately owned press freedom. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Press sources that are not independent or are arms of the government like Granma should be used only to express the opinion of the controling entity, and sparingly at that. They should never be used for facts. Freedom House's rankings are a good place to start in evaluating media outlets. CENSEI ( talk) 22:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
It's hard to see IronDuke's approach as being anything other than a way of excluding media sources from countries which you don't like. If you want to describe a particular country's point of view about an issue, then of course media from that country is likely to be the best source. Your approach simply assumes that everything published in the media of a country such as Jordan is inherently inaccurate. Of course, coverage of certain topics may be biased or incomplete due to ideological preferences about the topic in question. You would not necessarily look to the Russian press for unbiased coverage of the war in Georgia, for instance. But it's taking it to a ridiculous extreme to apply this sort of caution to every story in every media outlet in a particular country. Are Jordanian sports reports off-limits? How about reports on cultural or economic affairs? What about political matters involving countries outside the Middle East?
As well as that, the "IronDuke standard" is ridiculously ill-defined. What counts as "censored media"? Israel's media are heavily censored about issues to do with security matters; does that make it off-limits? Many consider Britain's media to be muzzled by very strict libel laws. India has a very active press commission. Thailand's media is distorted by political ownership and subject to drastic limitations in certain areas. In fact, if you look at Reporters without Borders' list of press freedom for 2007, Jordan is actually ranked higher than many "westernised" countries, including Thailand, the Philippines, Mexico and so on. It's in a roughly equal position with India. How about it, IronDuke - are you going to argue that the whole of the Mexican and Indian media should be excluded? Where do you draw the line? Considering who's brought this up, it's clear that this whole thing is just an attempt to exclude the reporting of one side in the Arab-Israeli conflict; nobody should take it seriously. -- ChrisO ( talk) 01:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I know this has probably been brought up before but what is the reliability of a myspace blog? (The situation: The birth year of Alex O'Loughlin has never been reliably pinned down but on what is presumably his myspace page he blogged clarifying his birth year.) My first thought is to say no to the use of myspace personally, but the section on 'self-published and questionable sources about themselves' makes me hesitant on this. Should/can this be used as a source or not? -- ImmortalGoddezz ( t/ c) 19:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Here are some links and quotes calling into question the reliability of NBA list heights Sports Illustrated - Heights of Hilarity Sporting News - Predraft height hype is out of hand NYtimes - When Height Becomes a Tall Tale Draft Express - A historical look at Pre Draft Measurements
From Sporting News "A sampling of current NBA players measured by the league in advance of the annual draft shows their teams have doctored the heights for 12 of 15 -- 80 percent. Only one of the names I picked at random -- Kevin Durant -- is listed precisely at his barefoot height (6-9). Chris Paul's height is rounded up from 5-11 3/4 to 6-0, which counts as a square deal. "
From Sports Illustrated "It was in the run-up to the 1992 Olympics that the world finally learned what the cognoscenti had long suspected -- that Charles Barkley was more like 6-4 5/8 than 6-6, and Magic Johnson closer to 6-7 than 6-9. Likewise, it was a measurement in 1988 before the Games (citius, altius -- but not unduly altius) that exposed Danny Manning, who had been a 6-11 freshman at Kansas, as a 6-9 NBA draftee-to-be. "
From NY Times " “They lie,” said Charles Barkley, a basketball commentator for TNT. “I’ve been measured at 6-5, 6-4 ¾. But I started in college at 6-6.” Even the N.B.A. lies, apparently. According to Barkley’s biography on NBA.com, he is 6-6." and "Sam Smith, a longtime N.B.A. writer who recently retired from The Chicago Tribune, said: “We sort of know the heights, because after camp, the sheet comes out. But you use that height, and the player gets mad. And then you hear from his agent. Or you file your story with the right height, and the copy desk changes it because they have the ‘official’ N.B.A. media guide, which is wrong. So you sort of go along with the joke.”"
From Draftexpress "A human’s height does not include the addition of shoes, so it’s misleading when a player chooses to be listed at their in shoes height. The NBA has also done a poor job listing players consistently across the board. Many players are listed at their height in shoes, but some are listed at their barefoot height, and some are listed above their in shoes height (John Starks) or an inch below their barefoot height (Kevin Garnett, Desmond Mason)."
I think I've made a strong case of showing that the NBA does not list heights accurately - and that draftcamp measurements (which are generally freely available) are a much more reliable source (since the NBA official guides have a poor record for fact checking and accuracy from sports journalists in relation to height), feel free to look up your favorite players' heights here DraftExpress Pre Draft Measurements and compare to their official team roster height. Zzmang ( talk) 12:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
One more source Many players in NBA are telling tall stories Quotes " The NBA doesn't measure players, which is probably why 1993 Most Valuable Player Charles Barkley got away with being listed at 6-foot- 6. Many who played against Barkley said he was, at most, 6- 4. "
" NBA spokesman Tim Frank said the league counts on its teams to give accurate measurements of their players"
" The NBA's top official isn't about to call for league-mandated measurements of players. Commissioner David Stern, whose height isn't listed in the NBA guide but was once estimated at 5-foot-9, said the disparity between reality and hype only adds to the intrigue of the game. " Zzmang ( talk) 00:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Pursuant to this discussion over these edits, is a screencap of a source appropriate, as User:70.108.115.9 suggests? My guess is that it isn't, but I said I'd ask here. If so, how would it be used? Uploaded to a site like ImageShack and then linked to? Nightscream ( talk) 22:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
On the page about the Israel Supreme Court building there is a picture of this building that shows CLEARLY a pyramid with an circular window at the top of each face. This picture was considered as verified.
I just added a note below the picture to point to the presence of this pyramid. My note was erased on the pretext that it is not verifiable. To be honest I consider this the same as the well documented Zionist media control that we all know but refuse to discuss about.
The picture used to be at the top right in poor resolution was improved and brought away from immediate view. Another disinformation tactic or a chance event ? 911allo ( talk) 12:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the contradictions between the Luzon Empire and Ancient Tondo articles, I'd like to solicit comment about the source used by the Luzon Empire to say:
"Some contemporary Philippine historians[6] agree with their Chinese counterparts, and are willing to speculate further that after the fall of Nan Song (南宋國, "Southern Song Empire"), Zhang Shijie's fleet and the last Song emperor may have escaped to pre-colonial Philippines and established the Luzon Empire or the Lesser Song Empire (呂宋國)."
The reference says
"Pangilinan, et al on the initial translations of DongXi Yanggao<!-- is this the same as ''A study of the Eastern and Western Oceans''?--> ( 東西洋考, Book 5.)"
The article has no other reference by Pangilinan, whose interpretation of the DongXi Yanggao reference is supposed to be the argument referred to. My question is whether this source is sufficient to merit the continued existence of Luzon Empire when Ancient Tondo, which sticks to the more orthodox interpretation, already exists. I'm sorry if this also happens to be an Original Research question, but I've raised the matter there already and what I'm asking for here specifically is whether this source justifies the existence of the Luzon Empire article. Thanks. Alternativity ( talk) 18:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
How should ETC [www.etc.se] be used in articles? I can hardly find any info on the magazine, but it seems to be a partisan publication of the socialist left in Sweden. Troopedagain ( talk) 02:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Would articles that appear on E! Online be considered reliable for news about celebrity and reality TV stars? BaldPete ( talk) 17:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Is the NGO Zochrot, or "Nakba in Hebrew" a RS? From their web-site: "Zochrot ["Remembering"] is a group of Israeli citizens working to raise awareness of the Nakba, the Palestinian catastrophe of 1948". I encounter edits like this: [18], [19]. Again; this NGO has never AFAIK been discussed here before, so I would very much like to hear your opinion. Regards, Huldra ( talk) 17:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Are chronicles from the 1600s and 1700s reliable sources? In my opinion, even quoting from such an old source directly (i.e. without a secondary source acting as a filter) is original research, because words change their meaning over such long periods of time (either by losing some of their original meanings or being enriched with new meanings the original author never intended to use). Of course, if the meaning is undisputed within the community then that isn't a problem, but what's the proper course of action if the meaning is disputed? -- Gutza T T+ 13:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Follow-up question: if the quotation of such a source is disputed by other editors, is it reasonable to seek consensus by eliminating said source in favor of a secondary source, or is that an unacceptable proposal? -- Gutza T T+ 23:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
It all depends on availability of reliable academic interpretations. Once you dig into a relatively small academic field with plenty of nationalist agendas, they become a dying breed. However, the 1600s-1700s sources are too recent to cause any misunderstanding to present-day native Romanians, just like an average Englishman can keep the track of a Hamlet play. Plus, Costin was not a monk so his mind was not as rigidly indoctrinated as that of a monastic chrohist and he apparently did not insert biblical riddles in the text (the first thing to remember reading older Eastern European chronicles). To me, translation/interpretation of his statement is not a problem at all. It's all about presentation - whether it's a one man's opinion or something larger. I would take his words for what they are worth: that, in Costin's opinion at the time of writing ... then follow his point. Nothing more. NVO ( talk) 22:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
p.s. I think that naming a 17th-century politician and pamphletist a chronist is itself a cause of conflict. Chronist invokes medieval standards of passing (copying, altering, synthesizing) knowledge of past centuries through compiled chronicles; a 17th century text is quite different, it's an original work. NVO ( talk) 22:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Is this considered a reliable enough source for Wikipedia's purposes. NanohaA'sYuri Talk, My master 02:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Can The Electronic Intifada be used as a reliable source? I am working on Cinema of Palestine, and there is one editor there that disagree: [20] I cannot see that EI has been discussed here before, (see: Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Links to reliable sources discussions), therefor I would very much like to hear your opinion. Regards, Huldra ( talk) 17:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, some of the UFO-enthusiasts who have been stymied by the original research rule have gone over to WikiNews and begun "reporting" on UFO sightings. Then they come back here and add their sighting to List of UFO sightings with a citation to Wikinews. I think this is very smelly. Does anyone else? How should I handle the removal of Wikinews-cited UFO sightings. Also, can someone alert Wikinews people that they are being used in this way?
(Cross posted to WP:NORN.)
ScienceApologist ( talk) 13:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
This section "Claims of Korean ancestry" at Hibari Misora contains no reliable references. The edit summary shows that most edits have tried to remove it for that reason. The article has not had many editors, so I decided to improve it. This user "Caspian_blue" [21] directly added that one section back into the article. I find that odd, because the user has the article of their watch list, but they have not edited the article before.
I tried to create a discussion with the user, and for them to explain how the references are reliable. However the user deletes my posts, makes rude comments, and ignores the question. Stating the references are "RELIABLE" and that I am page blanking, creating dishonest edit summaries, falsely labeling, and leaves me numerous warnings, and threats of being blocked. This was after I included many notable references to update the article.
The section in general is just nonsense, as none of the references are notable. However the book reference in particular is misleading, as this book "美空ひばり時代を歌う" does not mention anything about such a topic. It is impossible to find any information relating to the "weekly newspapers" which apparently wrote about it. The Korean newspaper isn't even named. The English reference is just a personal website about Japanese music, last updated in May 2007. The final references are from a Korean site, and using googles web translator, it appears the title says that 70% of the Japanese entertainment industry is actually Korean. It seems to be an anti-nationality statement, and an opinionated editorial. In addition, the user "Casbian Blue" appears to have an anti-Japanese persona, judging from this users activity.
I don't feel it belongs in the article, and that it is bait for prejudice vandalism. Trying to find any source relating to such a thing is almost impossible. 220.253.40.233 ( talk) 20:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Is a University Thesis by someone about another person that is passed away considered to be a reliable source? Vivaldi27 ( talk) 19:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
(out indent, EC)
Example of an unacceptable PhD. I just searched googlebooks for sources and found a full-text rendition of a PhD thesis that looked like a thoroughly researched, spot-on source on topic... until I found that it cites guess what - wikipedia - and on a gregarious scale ( go figure). At page 387 the author even argues that wikipedia has more or less quality than paper encyclopedias. Why in the world a thesis needs to cite encyclopedias? beats me. This one is from Oslo School of Engineering and Design. NVO ( talk) 15:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like to bring attention to various maps of Caucasus region (Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan), which are apparently made by a blogger named Andrew Andersen, who claims to be a PhD. Here is the list of images, all sourced from the same so called "Atlas of Conflicts" website of his, which are rather frivolous and unsubstantiated by any scholarly source on the subject. There are many other available historical maps of the region, which can be used with much better, established, reference base.
There might be some others from the same source, that I can find in Wikipedia.
According to WP:VERIFIABILITY, in particular section on self published sources: "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable."
In fact, according to these sources [22], [23] from University of Victoria newspaper, Andrew Andersen is known as formerly sessional professor at the University of Victoria, who was removed from his position for "racism and prejudice against minorities, Muslims in particular in May 2003". There is a substantial body of past discussion on the subject here, and this is some interesting input/info from an administrator back then [24].
I think provided how much edit warring conflicts these maps have led to all across Wikipedia, it's time to find less controversial and truly scholarly sources. Removal of some of these controversial and baseless maps may greatly assist in lowering tensions in Armenia-Azerbaijan editing conflicts. Thanks. Atabəy ( talk) 17:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It should be pointed out that neither Atabek or Grandmaster have said what they think is inaccurate about all these maps. In fact, they have deliberately avoided doing it. They attack the source of the content rather than the content itself. A discussion of one of the maps took place here Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Dubious_map_by_dubious_Andersen. I gave an analysis of the accuracy of the map there, neither of them bothered to reply. That was probably because the real reason for their objection is not that the maps are in any substantial way inaccurate for their purpose here, but that certain of the maps indicate borders or regions which disagree with their POV warring aims. The Andersen maps do not seem to disagree substantially with similar maps published in other sources. The difference is that, because of their licensing, the Andersen maps are available to be used within Wikipedia articles but those from the other sources can't be used. In essence, Atabek is attempting to manipulate Wikipedia procedures in order to censor Wikipedia. Meowy 18:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Interesting as Meowy feels that he is qualified to determine who has or does not have certain rights... Anyways, I would like to request a third party opinion regarding maps of blogger-claiming-to-be-scholar Andersen "PhD". These maps seriously fuel conflicts on Caucasus subjects, are not neutral and need to be removed and replaced with maps by legitimate established scholars. Thanks. Atabəy ( talk) 17:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
We have a small conflict on List of Heroes episodes where someone adds titles sourced to Netflix. Problem is, it's a paid subscrubtion site. Unlike (subscription) magazines, where you can walk into a shop or library to verify the source, Netflix only allows access to their catalogue if you are a paying member, making it impossible for ayone else to verify the source. This is why I keep removing those title, but other pose that Netflix is a usable source, even if it is payed access only. Opinions? — Edokter • Talk • 13:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Would Thesmokinggun.com be considered reliable, particularly with regard to their supposed speciality, the legal troubles of celebrities?
If not, two further questions.
Would it be fair to include information from the web site if is confirmed by the copies they have of court and arrests records?
Would it be fair to include information from an accepted reliable source such as the Associated Press if AP article was based on what appeared on Thesmokinggun.com? BaldPete ( talk) 16:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Is WikiPilipinas considered a reliable source for a) in-text references, or b) External Links sections? I noticed a lot of links to various pages on it, and such a large collection needs some community input rather than one editor making any potentially damaging decisions. Orpheus ( talk) 06:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
There's a dispute on Cyrus cylinder about the use of http://www.savepasargad.com, the website of the "International Committee to Save the Archeological Sites of Pasarga", as a source. It sticks out like a sore thumb, as literally every one of the other 59 sources used in the article is an academic work. Specifically, two pieces by a Canadian-Iranian linguist are being cited (see [25] and [26]). The problems I perceive with the website are:
Any thoughts? -- ChrisO ( talk) 08:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
-- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 08:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I'm coordinating an educational project ( North of the Río Grande), and for one of the articles, on the Chilean-Canadian writer Carmen Rodriguez, my students have shown the immense initiative of getting in touch with the author herself. They therefore met her, and interviewed her at length (three hours), an interview which they recorded. Thanks to that interview, they therefore have a number of sources that we want to ask about. They include:
These sources are not needed to establish the author's notability, but as the intent is to take this article to GAN, and hopefully even FAC, we would like the article to be as comprehensive as possible. Obviously, these unconventional sources are a goldmine. Can the students use them, and if so how? Or if not, are there any precedents or workarounds? Many thanks. -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 22:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent, copied over from User talk:SandyGeorgia:) Yes, I feared as much. In fact, mind you, I think the taboo that's being broken here is less WP:V than WP:OR. After all, research (particularly historical and scientific research) for instance, relies precisely on primary sources: letters, interviews, diaries, as well as experiments, lab notes, and so on. It's not that the students are drawing on personal experience--per the example of an eyewitness report of an accident--let alone a waking dream. In fact, they are being suitably scholarly in searching out primary and unpublished sources. It's just that when scholars do this, their reputation and training is what provides verifiability. Here on Wikipedia, because these are sources that nobody else can access, they are regarded on unreliable.
NB the use of primary sources would not make Wikipedia a primary source; it would make it a secondary source, along the lines of the sources that Wikipedia itself uses. But Wikipedia's goal is to be a tertiary source, that relies on (usually scholarly or journalistic) secondary sources.
I do wonder, however, how much leeway is provided by the final paragraph at WP:PSTS: "Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are more suitable on any given occasion is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on article talk pages." -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
This diff here is what I'm referencing. A blog has been cited previously, and now the editor is citing another article on Wiki after I informed him that the blog wasn't reliable. I have objections to including the information about how Colby Donaldson should have been kicked off of the show based on these rules (that so far haven't been properly sourced) when it seems to be original research and we don't know what went on behind the scenes. Any thoughts on this from users or admins more experienced? Atlantabravz ( talk) 01:11, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Considering it's gained awards, reputation and is editored. Is there a point where a serious professional blog site becomes reliable? Are these sites any less reliable than a newspaper? --neon white talk 10:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
there are no citations for putting this disorder in gender categories or links that show any symptom differentiality in patients due to gender
In females Women with HPD are described as self-centered, self-indulgent, and intensely dependent on others. They are emotionally labile and cling to others in the context of immature relationships. As well, they over-identify with others; they project their own unrealistic, fantasized intentions onto people with whom they are involved. They are emotionally shallow to avoid distress and have difficulty understanding themselves or others in any depth. Selection of marital or sexual partners is often highly inappropriate. The majority of the time their partners will have symptoms of personality disorders, equal to, or far worse than their own. Women with HPD often tend to enter into abusive relationships with partners who increase the abuse as time wears on. Pathology increases with the level of intimacy in relationships, which is exactly the same for males. Women may show inappropriate and intense anger masking their internal battle between the quest for intimacy and avoiding pathology. Women with borderline tendencies often form entirely negative convictions towards the male gender and treat them like pawns as a defense mechanism concealing their own inadequacies. They may engage in self-mutilation and/or manipulative suicide threats as one aspect of general manipulative interpersonal behavior.[2]
In males
Males with HPD usually present problems of identity crisis, disturbed relationships, and lack of impulse control. They have antisocial tendencies and are inclined to exploit physical symptoms as a method of false control. These men are emotionally immature (although they tend to believe the exact opposite), dramatic (although many are adept at covering it up), and shallow (although they tend to believe their feelings are so deep that no other single person could ever understand). Men with HPD may dwell on their own emotions and create a false sense of reality, effectively convincing themselves of whatever they need to believe to feel comfortable in their relationships. HPD males with antisocial tendencies shift between periods of isolation and those of extreme social conquest (each shift can last a matter of days to periods lasting several years). They may require isolated retreats in order to obtain a comfortable level of understanding and acceptable functioning. HPD antisocial males are dependent upon no one in particular, but crave the dependence of others. Although males often have chameleon-like social skills (similar to HPD females), they tend to have trouble keeping lengthy friendships afloat as their paranoia (real and imagined) may eventually lead to a near complete and permanent disposal of all interpersonal relationships at a given time, effectively eliminating any emotional responsibility and accountability. They tend to genuinely search for intimacy (many believe in "the one") while remaining unable to regulate their perceived level of intimacy for any given interpersonal relationship, making it very difficult to build anything other than turbulent relations. Males with HPD may believe in the supernatural, such as fortune telling or telepathy, including the belief that there are many hidden messages and notions in public works that are specifically meant for them. When HPD antisocial males believe they are being manipulated, they may morph into sociopathic relations with their perceived enemies, yet remain overtly loyal to perceived friends. HPD men are oftentimes intensely driven by their quest to conquer life, despite having no real sense of direction or control, resulting in frequent changes of overly passionate interests. [2] Both men and women with HPD engage in disinhibited behavior, such as promiscuity and substance abuse.[3]
Now, I understand that the website Japanreview.net has significant connections to Debito Arudou. I have the feeling that citing it is appropriate in Arudou's case because Arudou let an editor from the website look at his rough draft; another editor from the site gave a negative review his final book. Also I read C S and JReadings rationale. Anyway, I just want to triple check that the source can be used, so please look at the talk page and confirm or deny the rationale here. Thanks WhisperToMe ( talk) 04:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
How is a self-published book review from a credible author any worse than a book review from an equally credible author published in a newspaper? If we can't allow something because it is someone's stated opinion, then does the article not have undue weight by having only book reviews which praise? If there is no criticism, there shouldn't necessarily be any praise in the article either, even if that source is deemed reliable. The359 ( talk) 20:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Japanreview.net is not a real source under Wikipedia rules, no matter how you try to dress it up (it's a website, and a defunct one at that). The Japan Times is a real source (it's a major newspaper in Japan that's been around for more than a century). Let's stop trying to put lipstick on a pig.
Moreover, are we arguing with a straight face that we cannot allow praise unless criticism exists? This also falls foul of Wikipedia rules. Arudoudebito ( talk) 22:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have added a request for comment section about this: Talk:Debito_Arudou#Request_for_Comment:_Should_Japanreview.net_be_used_as_a_source.3F - After this, if there is a consensus, it will stick. WhisperToMe ( talk) 19:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that a lot of articles refer to the old Catholic Encyclopedia (published, I think, around 1913). Like the 1911 ed of the Encyclopedia Britanica, the old CE is noted for its high scholarship and depth of coveage on topics. However, like the 1911 EB, it is dated. This leads to a problem... In many cases the old CE is being used as a citation for statements about modern Catholic scholarship or opinion. I think we need some discussion about how reliable such old encyclopediae are. My personal view is that, while they can be reliable, their reliability is limited. We need to develop a consensus about when they should, and when they should not be used. Blueboar ( talk) 18:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
At Kaveh Farrokh there is an attempt to use a news report on a film World: Oliver Stone's 'Alexander' Stirs Up Controversy by Golnaz Esfandiari as a reliable source to say that the subject is an expert in the fields of history and linguistics. This diff [28] is the one in question. Ignoring the fact that RFE is a private organisation but government funded, I don't see how this specific article is a reliable source for his expertise. Particularly as his PhD is from a Department of Educational and Counselling Psychology, he works as an educational counsellor, his professional writing is about dyslexia and his PhD I think about language acquisition, to call him an expert in linguistics on the basis of newspaper articles doesn't work for me, although it obviously works for other editors. He has no qualfications in history or linguistics, although he has written 2 books on history. I hesitated bringing it here because this is also being discussed at [29] where I posted this morning, but as my edit was reverted on the grounds RFE is a RS for this claim, I've brought it here as the issue is whether this article can be used for these specific claims. Thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 16:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently working on HIStory and it's corresponding singles and album tracks that have their own article. I plan to get them all to featured or good states so every detail available is important. Jackson gave a very rare but informative interview to MTV here. Unfortunately it's just the video and I haven't been able to find a transcript of the interview. Could I still use it as a source, since it's an official interview with MTV and if so, how would I go about sourcing it? Cheers. — Realist 2 18:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
One of the issues I have in articles is Ad hominem quotes like this one in the Jesus myth article: "No reputable scholar today questions that a Jew named Jesus son of Joseph lived; most readily admit that we now know a considerable amount about his actions and basic teachings ..." (Charlesworth, James H. (ed.) (2006). Jesus and Archaeology. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.) There are several problems with this quote in particular: possible Wikipedia:Libel as it basically states that anyone that questions the idea "Jew named Jesus son of Joseph lived" is not reputable scholar (even among the Historical Jesus group there are those who dispute the 'son of Joseph' part so are they somehow unreliable scholars? The logic here is circular in any case: anyone who supports this theory is not a "reputable scholar" because no "reputable scholar" would support this theory), Wikipedia:Neutral point of view issues as the statement is an Ad hominem attack and doesn't really add anything to an encyclopedia article, WP:V issues as Charlesworth is the editor of the very book in which his comment appears and Eerdmans presents themselves as "Publisher of religious books, from academic works in theology, biblical studies, religious history and reference to popular titles in spirituality, social and cultural criticism, and literature." creating COI concerns. The quote has been put back in with claims that Charlesworth is an "expert in biblical archaeology" failing to explain what supports this and later that Eerdmans is "reputable academic publisher" something not even claimed at Eerdmans' own web site. More troubling is this review by Jonathan Reed from University of La Verne in Review of Biblical Literature 10/2007: "One minor criticism must be raised: scattered throughout the book are numerous illustrations, mostly from Charlesworth’s collection, which, although at times helpful, at other times seem misplaced or could be replaced with something more appropriate. So we see, for example, a bichrome Canaanite decanter in Klassen’s article on Sidonian Greek-inscribed glass, or the excavations at Cana in Kloppenborg’s article, but none at all of the Theodotos inscription whose letters are analyzed in a way that is hard to visualize without a picture. Of course by using his own photos, Charlesworth was able to keep the cost down, so that at $50.00 for over seven hundred pages, we should be thankful." When an editor is given this kind of free reign one has a right to call the work "self published" especially when you have things like a Canaanite decanter picture being used in a Sidonian Greek-inscribed glass article. Good grief, that is insane as even a courtesy investigation by John Q Surfer shows the Canaanite culture extending a far greater range in both time and region than the Sidonian culture. That is almost akin to using a picture of an Olmec artifact in an article on the Zapotecs and makes one again wonder about the "reputable academic publisher" claim.
On a more general level I would like to see Ad hominem quotes forbidden regardless of subject matter or source as I can not see any reasonable use for one in any article. They don't really add anything to an article, they serve as a lightning rod preventing article improvement, and they may have other issues as well. The fact you don't see such quotes in articles on other fringe theories like Flat Earth, Creationism, or New Chronology (Fomenko-Nosovsky) raises the question of why are Ad hominem quotes in the Jesus myth article and why editors are fighting to keep them in when better quotes exist. Even in the heated issue of Holocaust denial you have "reputable historian" used in the context of methodology rather than regarding people who hold to Holocaust denial itself.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 08:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Several dozen rugby league articles, such as Gareth Ellis, have been edited to include a blog source from this site. Other reliable third party sources such as this from a news outlet are available to support the same information for the same player. Is the user-generated blog acceptable when other sources are available? Thanks, • Florrie• leave a note• 12:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
There is some disagreement at Kaveh Farrokh on whether a bio published in a conference program constitutes a reliable independent source. An edit I made in which I called this an "autobiography" was reverted as being " WP:OR, because the bio does not mention by whom it was written. However, nobody will tell you that you're doing OR if you call a bio posted on someones own webpage an autobio, even if the author isn't mentioned. I don't know of any conference (and certainly not one of modest means such as this one seems to be - their website does not even have its own URL, but is hosted on a university server) that will research someone's bio themselves. Conference organizers invariably ask participants to send a short bio themselves (which they then may or may not edit, for instance to fit a page). In the present case, the item cited from this bio constitutes a high school award, hardly something that a conference organizer would go to great lengths to uncover (disregarding the fact that I have not been able to find this award anywhere, except on the original conference site and in Wikipedia and mirror sites). Anyway, the case boils down to whether a biography published in a conference program is a reliable independent source for anything. I would appreciate the opinion of the community on this. Thanks. -- Crusio ( talk) 21:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
So I've encountered a user who has argued that an IMDB page, a myspace page and a personal website are reliable/verifiable sources for a living person biography Kristen Aldridge. I had been citing WP:SPS and WP:SELFPUB # 3 as why they don't apply I have this guy and an admin who seems to know the other saying they don't apply. I've reached my 3 edit limit for the article but was hoping some more experienced editors could chime in. Are these sources considered reliable? Tmore3 ( talk) 23:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Personal websites are definitely self-published. The non-user contributed parts of IMDB are probably OK. lk ( talk) 09:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I've taken the position that such sources are usable under WP:SELFPUB with use of inline citations.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 17:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I'm working on Casu marzu, and there's a ref left over from another editor here. Is it reliable? It's from the The Ohio Naturalist, from 1914. Thanks. Intothewoods29 ( talk) 03:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Let's say one book quotes and sources another book to which I don't have access. May that quoted information be presumed to be reliable and if so, should it be sourced to the original book, sourced to the book by way of the source that quotes it or sourced to the RS to which I have access? I relaize that reads a bit confusing; I've confused myself just writing it. For example, Smith page 50 quotes Jones page 10. Can I include the information and if so should the cite be <ref>Jones p. 10</ref>, <ref>Jones p. 10 quoted on Smith p. 50</ref>, <ref>Smith p. 50</ref> or something I haven't thought of? And in the bibliography section, should Jones and Smith be listed separately, should Jones be mentioned as included in Smith or should it just be Smith? Otto4711 ( talk) 08:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
That seems fine to me. It is common enough to cite direct quotes in this fashion (where one published work is quoting another). In both of those instances it is expected that the intermediate work be cited per WP:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. Both the original and the intermediate work are expected to be reliable (or the original is a primary work that the intermediate work interprets). The APA style guide mentions basically how to do it. That can easily be adapted for WP footnote style. Protonk ( talk) 13:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Semitransgenic ( talk) 14:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
According to my analysis, the article lists 201 different source locations. Of these, 35 (not 93) are pages in Fox. However, it is true that some of these pages have multiple citations. Overall, the article has, according to my reckoning, 347 individual source citations. Of those, 98 are to Fox. So there would seem to be some potential justification in raising the question of undue weight. To check if this is borne out by the facts, let us look at what is actually cited to Fox, taking each citation in turn, from the beginning.
This covers the first 33 citations to Fox. As the article grew, I used Fox as a convenience cite for several reasons: Her book is short and contains the essential outline of Osho's life. Second, it is, unlike FitzGerald or Carter, strictly choronological, making it easy to find things. Third, having been written quite recently, it is one of the few books that covers all of Osho's life, from his birth to his death. Fourth, along with FitzGerald, Fox was one of the first sources I bought for working on this article.
There is nothing cited to Fox in the above that could not just as easily be cited to Carter, FitzGerald, Joshi, or Gordon.
CESNUR is an organisation of mainstream scholars of religion. According to this Oxford University Press publication, CESNUR is a recommended source of objective information on new religious movements. The same publication also mentions that Massimo Introvigne lectures at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome.
"Judith Fox (= Judith Thompson, = Judith Coney) holds a doctorate in the sociology of religion from the London School of Economics, University of London. For more than twenty years, she has researched new religions, culminating in such books as The Way of the Heart: A Study of Rajneeshism and Sahaja Yoga. She edits a series on new religions from Curzon Press." [31] Cheers, Jayen 466 16:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I have hidden the above discussion. Please continue this discussion on the NPOV noticeboard (where I notice it is cross-posted) or else rephrase your question to be about source reliability. Undue weight and NPOV are not issues for this board. PelleSmith ( talk) 20:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)