This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kilgour–Matas report article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 |
Kilgour–Matas report has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
Falun Gong, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
The most glaring example of this is the use of the graph for organ wait times from the Kilgour Mattas report. The article is using the subject of the article as a reference for the subject of the subject... Sorry if that sounds convoluted but that's basically what's happening here. I'll be honest, I've got WP:DUE issues with having an entire article devoted to what is effectively a fringe document. I would advise against giving it a "good article" standing in its current condition and I think it's a tall hill to climb for this article to ever achieve it. Simonm223 ( talk) 00:25, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
I noticed Ohconfucius remove the estimate that tens of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners were imprisoned because it's not cited in Ian Johnson's article. But you were the one who changed the sentence around in the first place.
Here's what it used to read:
The 'tens of thousands' figure is best supported by the U.S. State Department reference that was provided, which states "some foreign observers estimated that Falun Gong adherents constituted at least half of the 250,000 officially recorded inmates in RTL camps." Other reliable sources are more unambiguous -- for instance, Freedom House states simply that hundreds of thousands of Falun Gong have been imprisoned since 1999.
But you then changed it to this, falsely ascribing the figure to Ian Johnson [1]:
And then minutes later you edited again on the basis that Ian Johnson's article doesn't mention tens of thousands of detentions [2]:
Maybe you missed the State Department reference. Anyway, I added some more references to eliminate any remaining confusion. Also suggest keeping death estimates more general - Amnesty reported on 77 deaths way back in 2000, but that doesn't tell us anything about more recent trends (e.g. Amnesty also reported on over 100 Falun Gong deaths in 2008 calendar year alone; the NYT reported 2,000 deaths as of 2009). TheBlueCanoe 04:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
The ref [1]
Home > Topics > Outlawing Falun Gong Cult "Exposing the Lies of 'Falun Gong' Cult". http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/t263446.htm
is not listed under
Home > Topics http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/
In this case it seems that the CCP is not keen to publicize its own information. This statement is incorrect "However, the cult remains rampant in the U.S. and a handful of other countries." as on http://en.falundafa.org/falun-dafa-global-contacts.html there are over 70 countries listed. So the information on this page referenced is unreliable and inaccessible. I suggest this reference is deleted. There are other references accessible from embassy websites, which directly attempt to refute both versions of this report. References to those pages should be included rather than inaccessible and unreliable references. Aaabbb11 ( talk) 20:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
References
from Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Introductory material
"Good articles start with a brief lead section introducing the topic."
The current version fails to adhere to this policy. Aaabbb11 ( talk) 20:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Appendix 14. Transcript of Telephone Investigations http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report0701/report20070131.htm#_Toc158023107 has transcripts of 15 conversations where hospitals or other institutions in China admitted using organs from Falun Gong practitioners. The is direct evidence rather than circumstantial evidence. So to state the report is "based on circumstantial evidence" is incorrect. Aaabbb11 ( talk) 20:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Questions about the Matas-Kilgour report went beyond the allegations about Sujiatun. A paper prepared by the U.S. Congressional Research Service concluded that the report for the most part "does not bring forth new or independently-obtained testimony and relies largely upon the making of logical inferences." It also questioned the transcripts of telephone calls, in which Chinese officials are said to admit using Falun Gong organs. Some argue that such apparent candour would seem unlikely given Chinese government controls over sensitive information, which may raise questions about the credibility of the telephone recordings," the research service paper said.
— Ottawa Citizen, Former MP pushes for Beijing Games boycott, AUGUST 9, 2007
"Its common for transplant professionals and others to refer to the Kilgour–Matas report. " That's because there is no other source that can be referenced! The Kilgour-Matas turns out to be the ONLY report that makes those speculations, without any independent sources supporting its claims. This in turn proves the shakiness of those claims.
When we talk about direct evidence (smoking gun), we mean something that can be independently verified, something physical and objective whose presence definitively proves the claims one were to make. The telephone transcripts claimed by the report itself counts at most circumstantial evidence, if not just claims, since its veracity cannot be independently corroborated. One thing that baffles me is that, TEN YEARS after the release of the report, still NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE was found to prove any claims made, which tells you a lot about how credible the report actually was. - CharlieOQ ( talk) 07:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
It's not clear to me why this should be deleted? I agree we shouldn't make a big thing of it (I heard the LGF changed their attitude??) but mentioning the contention here seems to make sense. Unless i'm missing something? Happy monsoon day 23:47, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Kilgour–Matas report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kilgour–Matas report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
The authors qualified their findings by noting the difficulties in verifying the alleged crimes, such as: independent bodies were not allowed to investigate conditions in China, eyewitness evidence was difficult to obtain, official information about organ transplantation was often withheld, and Kilgour and Matas themselves were denied visas to go to China to investigate.
So... They actually did not go to China at all? Raintwoto ( talk) 22:46, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Kilgour–Matas report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Kilgour–Matas report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=69292{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kilgour–Matas report article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 |
Kilgour–Matas report has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
Falun Gong, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
The most glaring example of this is the use of the graph for organ wait times from the Kilgour Mattas report. The article is using the subject of the article as a reference for the subject of the subject... Sorry if that sounds convoluted but that's basically what's happening here. I'll be honest, I've got WP:DUE issues with having an entire article devoted to what is effectively a fringe document. I would advise against giving it a "good article" standing in its current condition and I think it's a tall hill to climb for this article to ever achieve it. Simonm223 ( talk) 00:25, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
I noticed Ohconfucius remove the estimate that tens of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners were imprisoned because it's not cited in Ian Johnson's article. But you were the one who changed the sentence around in the first place.
Here's what it used to read:
The 'tens of thousands' figure is best supported by the U.S. State Department reference that was provided, which states "some foreign observers estimated that Falun Gong adherents constituted at least half of the 250,000 officially recorded inmates in RTL camps." Other reliable sources are more unambiguous -- for instance, Freedom House states simply that hundreds of thousands of Falun Gong have been imprisoned since 1999.
But you then changed it to this, falsely ascribing the figure to Ian Johnson [1]:
And then minutes later you edited again on the basis that Ian Johnson's article doesn't mention tens of thousands of detentions [2]:
Maybe you missed the State Department reference. Anyway, I added some more references to eliminate any remaining confusion. Also suggest keeping death estimates more general - Amnesty reported on 77 deaths way back in 2000, but that doesn't tell us anything about more recent trends (e.g. Amnesty also reported on over 100 Falun Gong deaths in 2008 calendar year alone; the NYT reported 2,000 deaths as of 2009). TheBlueCanoe 04:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
The ref [1]
Home > Topics > Outlawing Falun Gong Cult "Exposing the Lies of 'Falun Gong' Cult". http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/t263446.htm
is not listed under
Home > Topics http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/
In this case it seems that the CCP is not keen to publicize its own information. This statement is incorrect "However, the cult remains rampant in the U.S. and a handful of other countries." as on http://en.falundafa.org/falun-dafa-global-contacts.html there are over 70 countries listed. So the information on this page referenced is unreliable and inaccessible. I suggest this reference is deleted. There are other references accessible from embassy websites, which directly attempt to refute both versions of this report. References to those pages should be included rather than inaccessible and unreliable references. Aaabbb11 ( talk) 20:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
References
from Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Introductory material
"Good articles start with a brief lead section introducing the topic."
The current version fails to adhere to this policy. Aaabbb11 ( talk) 20:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Appendix 14. Transcript of Telephone Investigations http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report0701/report20070131.htm#_Toc158023107 has transcripts of 15 conversations where hospitals or other institutions in China admitted using organs from Falun Gong practitioners. The is direct evidence rather than circumstantial evidence. So to state the report is "based on circumstantial evidence" is incorrect. Aaabbb11 ( talk) 20:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Questions about the Matas-Kilgour report went beyond the allegations about Sujiatun. A paper prepared by the U.S. Congressional Research Service concluded that the report for the most part "does not bring forth new or independently-obtained testimony and relies largely upon the making of logical inferences." It also questioned the transcripts of telephone calls, in which Chinese officials are said to admit using Falun Gong organs. Some argue that such apparent candour would seem unlikely given Chinese government controls over sensitive information, which may raise questions about the credibility of the telephone recordings," the research service paper said.
— Ottawa Citizen, Former MP pushes for Beijing Games boycott, AUGUST 9, 2007
"Its common for transplant professionals and others to refer to the Kilgour–Matas report. " That's because there is no other source that can be referenced! The Kilgour-Matas turns out to be the ONLY report that makes those speculations, without any independent sources supporting its claims. This in turn proves the shakiness of those claims.
When we talk about direct evidence (smoking gun), we mean something that can be independently verified, something physical and objective whose presence definitively proves the claims one were to make. The telephone transcripts claimed by the report itself counts at most circumstantial evidence, if not just claims, since its veracity cannot be independently corroborated. One thing that baffles me is that, TEN YEARS after the release of the report, still NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE was found to prove any claims made, which tells you a lot about how credible the report actually was. - CharlieOQ ( talk) 07:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
It's not clear to me why this should be deleted? I agree we shouldn't make a big thing of it (I heard the LGF changed their attitude??) but mentioning the contention here seems to make sense. Unless i'm missing something? Happy monsoon day 23:47, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Kilgour–Matas report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kilgour–Matas report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
The authors qualified their findings by noting the difficulties in verifying the alleged crimes, such as: independent bodies were not allowed to investigate conditions in China, eyewitness evidence was difficult to obtain, official information about organ transplantation was often withheld, and Kilgour and Matas themselves were denied visas to go to China to investigate.
So... They actually did not go to China at all? Raintwoto ( talk) 22:46, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Kilgour–Matas report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Kilgour–Matas report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=69292{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)