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Again Andrew Andersen is the only source for the claims that Kazakh was transfered to Azerbaijan in 1931. I would suggest to get a confirmation from another source. Grandmaster 12:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I don’t think the information of Andersen on transfer of Kazakh rayon to Azerbaijan in 1931 is credible for a simple reason – it was part of Yelizavetpol governorate, which you said was assigned to Azerbaijan. How come then that one of the uyezds of Yelizavetpol with predominant Azeri population became part of Armenia?
Here’s the article on Kazakh uyezd from Brokhauz: [1] Grandmaster 09:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
No references provided to legitimate journal articles. This "PhD" does not hold water. Atabek 02:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm apologize for not noticing the Armenian source. Still, non of these sources appear to confirm your point. Before 1931, the uyezd was in partial possession of Georgia so the phrase "part of Kazakh uezd" can easily be read to mean that. What other sources do I have proving that the borders did not change until 1931? How about maps made before 1931 and maps showing the area before 1931? Two maps here are from Konstantin Bazilevich's book:
I also doubt that "someone mistyped 1931 for 1921." All the best, Aivazovsky 12:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for forgetting sign in. Andersen's website which is given as a basis for information is very dubious as it was pointed out previously. He does not cite any soutces in the body of his text (research). All assumption on such matters should be referred properly to original sources of that period.-- Dacy69 20:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there are many webisites which don't cite their sources. And in this case such research is dubious, unless this sites are not about well-known facts. Here we have the disputable case. Andersen makes several mistakes. Moreover, this one man site - it is not of reputable instituion, encyclopedia, etc. If I tomorrow create website - what it means - information there is blessed as by the only truth?-- Dacy69 21:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
While Andersen does not cite his sources we have the following: 1. Qazakh uezd was 5,908 sq. km according to Caucasian Calendar of 1903 printed in Tiflis (p.30) (Tbilisi) - Кавказский календарь на 1903 год. Статистические сведения. Типография А.В.Кутеладзе, Тифлис. 2. Azerbaijan Communist Central Committee (AзЦИК) (mostly comprised by non-Azeri) on its meeting on 22 April 1922 (after Azerbaijan was incorporated into Transcaucasian Federation) decided, after the hearing of the report of "the Committe on administrative re-arrangement of Azerbaijan": "Leave Qazakh uezd in its former administrative borders without any changes" (Казахский уезд оставить в старых административных границах и в отношении этих границ не вносить никаких изменений") - State Archive of Azerbaijan's Political Parties and Public Movements (Former Soviet Communist Party Archive) ГАППОДАР. ф.1, оп. 74, д. 127, л.160-161
So if it were a part of Armenia, as Andersen claims, the desicion would have had different language. Yes, Qazakh uezd was a part of ADR-DRA dispute but was not in the possesion of Dashnaks. However after 1922 incrementally, piece by piece certain part of Qazakh uezd (rayon) was given to Armenia.-- Dacy69 22:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh wait nevermind! The mistake was on my part! The territorial adjustments weren't made in 1931, they were actually made between 1923 and 1928. Here's a direct quote from Andersen's website:
I'll fix this now. -- Aivazovsky 01:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, the attached map is from J.H.M. Cornwall. "The Russo-Turkish Boundary and the Territory of Nakhchivan",The Geographical Journal, Vol. 61, No. 6. (Jun., 1923), pp. 446
Now take a careful look at the Eastern border of Armenia, and provide further proofs that Kazakh uyezd ever belonged to Armenia prior to 1931. My grandparents were born in Kazakh uyezd in 1920s, and no one ever remembers Kazakh belonging to Armenian SSR, but indeed Western part of it was ceded to Armenian SSR under Soviet regime, in form of Karvansaray (which was renamed to Ijevan), Allahverdi (Alaverdi), Noyemberyan raions, etc. But apart from those, based on the map presented, you should denounce your claims to both Karabakh and Kazakh uyezd altogether. Atabek 01:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Gokcha (Goycha) is the historic name of the lake, predating Russian control.
However, once again, the problems with Andersen's Original Research and essentially a POV, is that he does not cite any sources at all, he is not a well-published historian, his research is hosted only on some unauthoritative websites, and he is contradicting both evidence and simple logic. Moreover, none of the maps and counter-arguments you have presented in his defense withstand a simple factual and historic test, and in fact, appear to have been manipulated by being misrepresented (e.g., when maps clearly say they are from 1921-22, they are mislabeled as for 1931). The old version of the page, as written and maintained by Aivazovsky, is incorrect and has been edited to make it NPOV. Aivazovsky, you had time since August 2006, when first questions of the reliability started to be pondered, to either re-write he article and make it NPOV, or present more authoritative, solid, third-party sources in defense of your postulates. Since none has happened, please don't engage in Revert war, don't violate the 3RR rule which you already did violate massively, and don't undo NPOV changes. Thanks. P.S. And not sure where you took yet another date, 1928, from. The borders were settled by the end of 1921, although gradual changes continued, by having Azerbaijani lands in Zangezur (well, whatever remained of it after its transfer was done in 1921), Qazakh and Naxcivan (stopped in 1930) being transferred to Armenia until 1969, and then once more again in 1982. -- AdilBaguirov 02:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
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help)Alright, with the help of my local library's website, I can now access the Geographical Journal references recommended by Kober and Atabek. I'll comment on these later. Unfortunately, I still can't get to Central Asian Survey's "Caucasian Boundaries. Documents and Maps. 1802–1946" which I'm eager to have access to, because it will give us even more insight into the borders of the Caucasus at this time. All the best, Aivazovsky 15:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, so let's finalize the problems with Aivazovsky's version of history and editing of the page, which he has been misrepresenting since August of 2006, despite repeated objections and appeals to do more research and edit the page in a NPOV way:
1) Andrew Andersen is not an authoritative scholar on the issue, his writing is available only at an amateur website;
2) Andersen fails to cite even a single source regarding his thesis;
3) The date "1931", which was the claimed date until which all of Qazakh was allegedly part of Armenia, after repeated objections and evidence to the contrary, has been acknowledged by Aivazovsky as mistaken, and now a new date, 1928, has been placed instead;
4) Not a single map has been presented which would show any of the claims, especially regarding Qazakh being part of Armenia from about 1922 until 1928 (and before, until 1931), true;
5) All maps shown by Aivazovsky as "evidence" of Qazakh, and other territories, being "Armenian", until first 1931, and now 1928, have been mislabeled and misrepresented, as they all show borders at most until 1922, although most likely summer of 1921 (one map was supposedly done in 1924, but shows completely wrong borders for Crimea, Ajaria, South Ossetia, NKAO);
6) In fact, a fully referenced scholarly map of 1921 shows Qazakh in Azerbaijan [10]
7) Another archival evidence also shows that Armenia only had (and has to this day) only part of the former Qazakh uezd (the other part became what is known as Qazakh region (rayon) of Azerbaijan):
"after which on 2 December [1920] by the plenipotentiary representative of RSFSR [Soviet Russia] in Armenia, comrade Legran there was an agreement signed with the representaive of Dashnak Armenia about announcing Armenia as the independent Soviet Socialist Republic [SSRA]. According to this agreement, until the call up of the Assembly of Soviet [Parliament] of Armenia, a temporary Military-revolutionary committee is formed, to which the entire power in Armenia is being passed. The territory of SSRA is being defined: Erivan guberniya, part of Kars oblast, Zangezur uezd, part of Kazakh uezd and those part of Tiflis guberniya, which were in possession of Armenia before 28 September 1920." [11]
8) The date 28 September 1920 is named for a reason -- after years of attacks and occupation of parts of Eastern Turkey, the Turkish army under the command of Gen. Kazim Karabekir Pasha defeated Dashnak Armenia in a barely two month campaign, and the Alexandropol Treaty was signed.
9) Prior to that, during the initial negotiations over the founding of ADR and DDR in May 28, 1918, ADR actually ceeded its territory of former Erivan guberniya (where majority of population were Muslim Azerbaijanis) to newly founded Armenia. This was announed the PM Khan Khoyski of ADR in his 29 May 1918 telegram. ЦГАОР Аз. ССР, ф. 970, оп. 1, ед. хр. 1, л. 51.
10) As of mid-1918, even Armenian sources acknowledge that the whole territory of DDR was only consisting of Erivan guberniya: "от 4 июня 1918 г. территория Армении составляла всего 12 тыс. кв. км.... В таких условиях Армения была отрезана от Карабаха и не могла оказать ему действенную помошь." (from 4 June 1918, territory of Armenia totaled only 12 thousand square kilometers... In such conditions, Armenia was cut off from Karabakh and could not provide it with tangible assistance." (Suren Zolyan, "Nagorno-Karabakh: Problem and Conflic." // "Chapter 2. Nagorno-Karabakh in years 1918-1920." Yerevan: Lingva, 2001, http://www.armenianhouse.org/zolyan/nf-ru/karabakh/2.html)
11) Qazakh uezd was 5,908 sq. km according to Caucasian Calendar of 1903 printed in Tiflis (p.30) (Tbilisi) - Кавказский календарь на 1903 год. Статистические сведения. Типография А.В.Кутеладзе, Тифлис. Meanwhile, the Azerbaijan Communist Central Committee (AзЦИК) (mostly comprised by non-Azeri) on its meeting on 22 April 1922 (after Azerbaijan was incorporated into Transcaucasian Federation) decided, after the hearing of the report of "the Committe on administrative re-arrangement of Azerbaijan": "Leave Qazakh uezd in its former administrative borders without any changes" (Казахский уезд оставить в старых административных границах и в отношении этих границ не вносить никаких изменений") - State Archive of Azerbaijan's Political Parties and Public Movements (Former Soviet Communist Party Archive) ГАППОДАР. ф.1, оп. 74, д. 127, л.160-161
So if it were a part of Armenia, as Andersen claims, the desicion would have had different language. Yes, Qazakh uezd was a part of ADR-DRA dispute but was not in the possession of Dashnaks. However after 1922 incrementally, piece by piece certain part of Qazakh uezd (rayon) was given to Armenia.
12) See: The Geographical Journal, Vol. 69, No. 6. (Jun., 1927), read pages 436-437, Kazakh District - Azerbaijan.
13) Aivazovsky refuses to scan and make available the subsequent (after 1921) maps from the Tsutsiev atlas, which would show borders for Azerbaijan and Armenia to correspond more or less to present-day borders, and thus Qazakh region firmly inside Azerbaijan.
14) there are many more archival documents and references showing that neither the Andersen's writings, nor the position taken by Aivazovsky is corresponding to the historic reality. -- AdilBaguirov 20:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky - would you agree for mediation on this? If yes, we can file a request and let third party help with this-- Dacy69 22:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, you are stalling and sabotaging the constructive work, you've had time since August 2006 (!) and have refused to change the POV. This is unacceptable.
Here's the additional source, that Kober mentioned, "New Political Boundaries in the Caucasus", W.E.D. Allen, The Geographical Journal, Vol. 69, No. 5. (May, 1927), pp. 430-441. Before I provide quotes, it should be noted that WED Allen has reviewed all the major official publications and books in Russian about the new Soviet boundaries, and listed them in his article, but they are too lengthy to reproduce. However, this assures that he has done an expert job and scrupolou research. Also important, at the end of the article, he includes a folding map of Caucasus, produced by the Royal Geographical Society, which has borders almost same as today's, with Qazakh city and part of Qazakh region inside Azerbaijan, and another part of the former Qakakh uezd, inside Armenia. Also, Armenia does not touch Kura river. Hence, once more, all insinuations and allegations to the contrary have once again been disproven. The Qazakh page must be changed as soon as possible to reflect the historic reality, not the POV of some ideologically motivated editor and his unscholarly and unacademic amateur websites.
"Boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics
GEORGIA S.S.R. (capital Tiflis, which is also the capital of the TSFSR) comprises the former Government (Guberniya) of Tiflis [with the exception of the Circuit (okrug) of Zakatali and part of the District (uezd) of Borchalu] and the whole of the former Government of Kutais. There are three lesser units either united with or included in the Republic." (p. 433)
"The eastern boundary of Georgia with Azerbaijan follows the old local boundaries of the Districts of Signakh and Tiflis; and that with Armenia follows the former boundaries between the Governments of Tiflis and Erivan, with the exception that the Circuit of Lori, formerly in the Georgian District of Borchalu, is now part of the Armenian District of Bambak." (p. 434)
"AZERBAIJAN S.S.R. (capital Baku) comprises the whole of the former Government of Baku and the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), with the exception of the District of Zangezur, and part of that of Kazakh, and includes the Zakatali Circuit of the former Government of Tiflis." (p. 436)
"The southern frontier of Azerbaijan follows the old Russo-Persian forntier of 1914: the river Astara, the Talish chain - Belyasuvar - whence it cuts due north-west across the Mughan Steppe, to its junction with the Araxes, which it follows to the Armenian boundary, where the small district of megrin alone separates Azerbaijan from its autonomous protectorate of Nakhichevan." (p. 437)
"ARMENIA S.S.R. (capital Erivan) includes the former Government of Erivan, with the exception of the Districs of Surmali (Turkish) and of Nakhichevan. It includes also, from the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), the District of Zangezur, and part of the District of Kazakh, formed by the Region of Delijan. The Lori Region, formerly part of the government of Tiflis, is also included in Armenia." (p. 437).
-- AdilBaguirov 13:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have been doing some research trying to find the identity of this "historian" Andrew Andersen "PhD", find which university, school, college, publication, conference, etc. he is associated with, so that to check the credibility. So far I found none! Except for the amateurs website: http://www.conflicts.rem33.com the so called "historian" has absolutely no teaching or scientific publication reference. Where is his CV? Where is his publication list? How is it comparable to expert scholarly works such as those by Firuz Kazemzadeh, W.A.D. Allen, etc. Andersen's work as it's now serves nothing more than fueling baseless ethnic and territorial claims of one country to another, and he has neither credibility nor references to support that. Atabek 17:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I think that this has gone on for far too long and I'm tired of Adil attacking me as "sabotaging the constructive work".
I still hold that Andersen is a credible source. I've given you his biography showing you that he indeed has a PhD and even Kober entered this debate to uphold his reputation. I don't think that his work "serves nothing more than fueling baseless ethnic and territorial claims of one country to another." I'm sorry if you believe that the only reason why he's included here is to assert some sort of Armenian claim over Qazakh. The Armenians don't even want Qazakh. The Armenian government never even expressed an interest in it.
Anyway, the root of the problem is who administered the region after the collapse of the Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic and before Sovietization. I haven't had much time to really investigate Andersen's claims (I didn't neglect this article on purpose as Adil states), though, it should be noted that it is incredibly difficult to find any objective source about the Caucasus from this period. Still, I think the best solution, for the sake of compromise, would be to do this:
Under the Russian Empire, the rayon was part of the Kazakh uyezd of the Elisavetpol guberniya. With the fall of the Russian Empire, dispute over the region arose between the Armenians (who made up 39% of the population) and the Azerbaijanis (who comprised 57%). When the South Caucasus came under British occupation, Sir John Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus, decided that assigning the Erivan and Kars guberniyas to Democratic Republic of Armenia (DRA) and the Elisavetpol and Baku guberniyas to the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) would solve the region's outstanding disputes. However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians (who did not wish to give up their claims to Kazakh, Zangezur (today Syunik), and Nagorno-Karabakh) and Azerbaijanis (who found it unacceptable to give up their claims to Nakhichevan). As conflict broke out between the two groups, the British left the region in mid-1919.
After the British left and more fighting between Armenians and Azeris ensued, Bolshevik forces gained control of the region and annexed it to the Soviet Union. During the process of Sovietization, the borders of the Transcaucasian republics were redrawn several times. By 1927, the territory of the former Kazakh uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines. The northern region, including the town of Qazakh itself was given to Azerbaijan while the southern portion, roughly corresponding to the present-day Armenian province Tavush was given to Armenia. Neither country has disputed this boundary since.
So we're basically just saying that after the Wardrop proposal fell through, the region became disputed and the Bolsheviks took over and divided it along ethnic and sectarian lines (part was given to Armenia, part was given to Azerbaijan). As you can see, the St. Petersburg source and the first Andersen source will be retained. The second Andersen and the Azerbaijan State Archive sources shall be removed and in their place will be New Political Boundaries in the Caucasus, W.E.D. Allen, The Geographical Journal. Sound good? All the best, Aivazovsky 17:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, I'm not sure why would you misinterpret my (and everyone's) endorsement of WED Allen's article and somehow twist it to make seem like your statement: "By 1927, the territory of the former Kazakh uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines" would be satisfactory and true. Your date of 1927 (first, your preferred date was 1931, as we all remember) is misinterpreted, since you've already been presented more than enough sources such as W.E.D. Allen's. He PUBLISHED his article in May 1927 in a prestigious journal, after familiarizing himself and properly citing all other relevant publications -- something Mr. Andersen has not done at all. Obviously years are needed, especially in turbulent 1920s, for all official publications to appear, and he is especially proud to note that he familiarized himself with the official Soviet maps of 1925 (and another official July 1923 map), based on which his map in the article is drawn, on Soviet Constitution, on the British official documents, etc. I.e., he is a historian who writes about the past, not a journalist who writes about the present. Reflecting in 1927 about events of 1920-21 is very appropriate, as enough materials appear. Thus make no mistake, W.E.D. Allen wrote primarily about 1920-21, the time when Soviets were actually drawing most of the borders, particularly Qazakhs. Here's EXACTLY what he wrote in the section "Boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics":
"AZERBAIJAN S.S.R. (capital Baku) comprises the whole of the former Government of Baku and the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), with the exception of the District of Zangezur, and part of that of Kazakh, and includes the Zakatali Circuit of the former Government of Tiflis." (p. 436)
"ARMENIA S.S.R. (capital Erivan) includes the former Government of Erivan, with the exception of the Districs of Surmali (Turkish) and of Nakhichevan. It includes also, from the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), the District of Zangezur, and part of the District of Kazakh, formed by the Region of Delijan. The Lori Region, formerly part of the government of Tiflis, is also included in Armenia." (p. 437).
Obviously, there were no major border changes in 1927, and indeed, none since summer of 1921 -- so his "boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics" is clearly reflecting that.
Also, he makes an important statement about March 1922 meeting of 3 republics and wanting to join USSR, a request which was approved on December 1922. He then reminds the important treaties of Moscow and Kars, both signed in 1921, and then writes: "The frontiers of the Federation with the Russian S.F.S.R. and with Turkey may be considered in conjunction with the specific boundaries of the different Republics". In other words, by March 1922, and indeed, by October 1921 (Kars Treaty), all 3 republics had stable borders and joined USSR with such stable borders, and had stable outside borders too. The first phase of Soviet border drawing ended in 1921.
Anyhow, calm down, you can cite Andersen elsewhere if you want, as long as his writings comply with elementary scholarly rules. As of your proposal on removal of history section, quite the contrary, it should be expanded. Here's the start: map from Great Soviet Encyclopedia, entitled "Struggle for Soviet power in Azerbaijan (October 1917-August 1918) [12] (where you can see Qazakh and how large the uezd was as opposed to the rayon, and Turkish army and Azerbaijani army marched through it in 1918), and from same source, "Azerbaijan and neighboring regions in the first half of 19th century", which shows that Qazakh was made part of Russian Empire in 1801, like Aghstafa region and Eastern Georgia. [13]. We can then cite Movses Dasxuranci (Moisey Kalankatuyski) and even Movses Khorenatsi about borders of Caucasian Albania extending to the Khnarakert castle. But far more pressing is fixing the unfortunate mistakes and misrepresentations in this article that have gone unfixed since August 2006 despite repeated friendly appeals to fix it. -- AdilBaguirov 19:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky asked me to have a look at this, so here goes. The dispute is regarding Andersen, right? What we can do is still include him, but also include a source with an opposing POV, and state the two viewpoints, both Armenian and Azeri. Another option is to only include Armenian and Azeri sources, showing what both sides think. Khoi khoi 08:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I personally don’t think that Andersen can be used as a source for this or any other article in Wikipedia. According to the rules:
Self-published sources (online and paper) Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.
Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so. [14]
I don’t think that whatever information Andersen placed on his personal website has previously been published by any reputable publisher. Therefore, Andersen cannot be accepted as a source. Grandmaster 07:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I second Grandmaster opinion. I checked Calgary University. His credibility for the purposes in this page is under question.-- Dacy69 14:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, I looked at the website that you provided, which comes from archiving service and yet to be proven that the archived page belonged to university. Moreover, if you have familiarized yourself with works of Andersen and use them as scholarly reference in discussion, please, provide us not with his bio but with his curriculum vitae, consisting of list of publications at conferences or in journals, his books. Also, please, quote the particular source/article/book/page number of Andersen's work, where you have obtained the indicated map as well as the opinion that Kazakh was controlled by Armenia until 1931. Since you quickly replaced your quote to 1927 recently, I also want you to provide precise quotes saying it was between 1923 and 1927 that Armenia controlled Kazakh town and rayon of modern Azerbaijan. If you're, however, unable to provide such references, we should request the attention of administrators to have independent investigation and lift the block and remove the POV from this particular Wiki page. Atabek 22:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
First of all I strongly suspect that Andrew Andersen is not the person's birth name, see his bio here: Andrew Andersen was born in the USSR and grew up in Siberia and Latvia. He received his Master's degree from Moscow State University in 1980 where he later taught. I am quite sure there was no "Andrew Anderson" among professors in Moscow State University.
Second, the bio says "Andersen has written a number of books", but I failed to find any. The conflicts.rem33.com website doesn't mention any either.
There was a fuss in UVic about accusations of prof Andersen in racism and having been fired on these grounds in 2003, which contradicts to the opinion of user:Ldingley about his reputation. In any case, I would expect user:Ldingley to provide some solid proof of his opinion, if he wants it to be taken seriously.
Third, as I see the website www.conflicts.rem33.com is quite notable of not providing any references where data for all these maps came from. I am strongly inclined to move for removal of all his maps from wikipedia as unreliable. `' mikka 23:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazosky, it's clear that you have failed to provide references either in support of credibility of Andrew Andersen, or in support of the argument that Kazakh uyezd was "administered by Armenia till 1931" (as your initial edit claimed) or till 1927 as you claim now yet again without references. Pending these explanations, the page will need to be unblocked, and I will request third party arbitration on this page if necessary. Atabek 15:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
http://www.turan.info/forum/archive/index.php/index.php?t-301.html (in Russian) , forum, with extensive quotations. `' mikka 00:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to thank User:Mikkalai for the reference to UVic stories about Andersen. Here is an interesting quotes at [ [17]]:
Sufficient to say that "Dr." Andersen, a sessional professor, is not only a POV, but is also dismissed for racism against Muslims. So it's difficult to imagine how his made-up maps or quotes could reflect the reality with fairness to Muslim people of Caucasus. Atabek 01:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Under the Russian Empire, the rayon was a north-eastern part of the Kazakh uyezd of the Elisavetpol guberniya. With the fall of the Russian Empire, dispute over the region arose between the Armenians (who made up 39% of the population) and the Azerbaijanis (who comprised 57%). [18] When the South Caucasus came under British occupation, Sir John Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus, decided that assigning the Erivan and Kars guberniyas to Democratic Republic of Armenia (DRA) and the Elisavetpol and Baku guberniyas to the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) would solve the region's outstanding disputes. However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians (who did not wish to give up their claims to Kazakh, Zangezur (today Syunik), and Nagorno-Karabakh) and Azerbaijanis (who found it unacceptable to give up their claims to Nakhichevan). As conflict broke out between the two groups, the British left the region in mid-1919.
After the British left and more fighting between Armenians and Azeris ensued, Bolshevik forces gained control of the region and annexed it to Bolshevist Russia. During the process of Sovietization, the borders of the Transcaucasian republics were redrawn several times. By 1927, the territory of the former Kazakh uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines. [1] The northern region, including the town of Qazakh itself was given to Azerbaijan while the southern portion, roughly corresponding to the present-day Armenian province Tavush was given to Armenia. During the Nagorno-Karabakh War, Armenia gained control/occupied Yukhari Askipara and Barkhudarli, the two exclaves of Qazakh. Besides this, neither country has disputed the boundary since.
Khoi khoi 22:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The statement doesn't reflect the historical facts and the dates, such as 1927, are arbitrary and from nowhere. WED Allen's article is quite good and makes it clear that Azerbaijan SSR included part of the Kazakh uezd. Also, other maps and historical accounts make clear that Dashnak Armenia was invaded by Bolsheviks from Kazakh, thus making it clear that it was not Armenian or part of Armenia. Also, undue weight it given to British, who were masters in the region for less than a year.
As such, the statement: "By 1927, the territory of the former Kazakh uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines" is not satisfactory and not based on facts. WED Allen published his article in May 1927 in a prestigious journal, after familiarizing himself and properly citing all other relevant publications -- something Mr. Andersen, for example, has not done at all. Obviously years are needed, especially in turbulent 1920s, for all official publications to appear, and he is especially proud to note that he familiarized himself with the official Soviet maps of 1925 (and another official July 1923 map), based on which his map in the article is drawn, on Soviet Constitution, on the British official documents, etc. I.e., he is a historian who writes about the past, not a journalist who writes about the present. Reflecting in 1927 about events of 1920-21 is very appropriate, as enough materials appear. Thus make no mistake, W.E.D. Allen wrote primarily about 1920-21, the time when Soviets were actually drawing most of the borders, particularly Qazakhs. Here's EXACTLY what he wrote in the section "Boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics":
"AZERBAIJAN S.S.R. (capital Baku) comprises the whole of the former Government of Baku and the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), with the exception of the District of Zangezur, and part of that of Kazakh, and includes the Zakatali Circuit of the former Government of Tiflis." (p. 436)
"ARMENIA S.S.R. (capital Erivan) includes the former Government of Erivan, with the exception of the Districs of Surmali (Turkish) and of Nakhichevan. It includes also, from the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), the District of Zangezur, and part of the District of Kazakh, formed by the Region of Delijan. The Lori Region, formerly part of the government of Tiflis, is also included in Armenia." (p. 437).
Obviously, there were no major border changes in 1927, and indeed, none since summer of 1921 -- so his "boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics" is clearly reflecting that.
Also, he makes an important statement about March 1922 meeting of 3 republics and wanting to join USSR, a request which was approved on December 1922. He then reminds the important treaties of Moscow and Kars, both signed in 1921, and then writes: "The frontiers of the Federation with the Russian S.F.S.R. and with Turkey may be considered in conjunction with the specific boundaries of the different Republics". In other words, by March 1922, and indeed, by October 1921 (Kars Treaty), all 3 republics had stable borders and joined USSR with such stable borders, and had stable outside borders too. The first phase of Soviet border drawing ended in 1921.
The historical background of the article should be expanded, including perhaps map from Great Soviet Encyclopedia, entitled "Struggle for Soviet power in Azerbaijan (October 1917-August 1918) [19] (where you can see Qazakh and how large the uezd was as opposed to the rayon, and Turkish army and Azerbaijani army marched through it in 1918), and from same source, "Azerbaijan and neighboring regions in the first half of 19th century", which shows that Qazakh was made part of Russian Empire in 1801, like Aghstafa region and Eastern Georgia. [20]. We can then cite Movses Dasxuranci (Moisey Kalankatuyski) and even Movses Khorenatsi about borders of Caucasian Albania extending to the Khnarakert castle. Anyhow, Qazakh town and region was part of ADR and was part of Azerbaijan SSR, with only time to be in a limbo or occupied from around April 1920 (fall of ADR) to 1921. That's it. In other periods this region was part of Azerbaijan, legally and physically. -- AdilBaguirov 22:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, saying that "nobody knows exactly in what year" is an overstatement -- WED Allen makes clear the borders of both Armenian SSR and Azerbaijani SSR. Since both were firmly part of USSR by January 1, 1921, and since the Moscow Treaty and Kars Treaty were concluded on March 1921 and October 1921 respectively, and NK was decided upon by July 1921, we can firmly state that 1921 was a year when most borderland questions were settled. Hence, both 1927 and 1920s would be misleading -- the city of Qazakh, and the Qazakh region were part of Caucasian Albania, and have joined Russian Empire as Muslim lands in 1801, then formed part of ADR, and after some changes in favor of Armenia in 1920-21, once again became part of Azerbaijan. Likewise, Ijevan and the western portion of the Qazakh uezd was part of Armenian SSR. -- AdilBaguirov 23:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
While I am preparing a compromise version of the article, here's some more from Armenian and other sources to remember, which proves once again that Qazakh town and region (eastern half of the former Qazakh uezd) was firmly part of Azerbaijan from 1918 until March/April 1920, and then again from middle of 1921 on.
As of mid-1918, even Armenian sources acknowledge that the whole territory of DDR was only consisting of Erivan guberniya: "от 4 июня 1918 г. территория Армении составляла всего 12 тыс. кв. км.... В таких условиях Армения была отрезана от Карабаха и не могла оказать ему действенную помошь." (English translation: "from 4 June 1918, territory of Armenia totaled only 12 thousand square kilometers... In such conditions, Armenia was cut off from Karabakh and could not provide it with tangible assistance." (Suren Zolyan, "Nagorno-Karabakh: Problem and Conflict." // "Chapter 2. Nagorno-Karabakh in years 1918-1920." Yerevan: Lingva, 2001, http://www.armenianhouse.org/zolyan/nf-ru/karabakh/2.html )
In fact, here's from an Armenian website that makes clear that there was no question of the entire former Kazakh uezd, but only part of it, that is today part of Armenia: "после чего 2 декабря полномочным представителем РСФСР в Армении т. Леграном было подписано соглашение с представителями дашнакской Армении об объявлении Армении независимой Социалистической Советской Республикой. По этому соглашению до созыва Съезда Советов Армении образуется временный Военно-революционный комитет, к которому переходит вся власть в Армении. Определяется территория ССРА: Эриванская губерния, часть Карсской области, Зангезурский уезд, часть Казахского уезда и те части Тифлисской губернии, которые находились в обладании Армении до 28 сентября 1920 г." [21]
Translation into English: "after which on 2 December [1920] by the plenipotentiary representative of RSFSR [Soviet Russia] in Armenia, comrade Legran there was an agreement signed with the representaive of Dashnak Armenia about announcing Armenia as the independent Soviet Socialist Republic [SSRA]. According to this agreement, until the call up of the Assembly of Soviet [Parliament] of Armenia, a temporary Military-revolutionary committee is formed, to which the entire power in Armenia is being passed. The territory of SSRA is being defined: Erivan guberniya, part of Kars oblast, Zangezur uezd, part of Kazakh uezd and those part of Tiflis guberniya, which were in possession of Armenia before 28 September 1920." [22]
So as you see, it clearly mentions "part of Kazakh uezd", that is the western half of the former Kazakh uezd. Also, see the map from J.H.M. Cornwall. "The Russo-Turkish Boundary and the Territory of Nakhchivan",The Geographical Journal, Vol. 61, No. 6. (Jun., 1923), pp. 446, which also shows Qazakh as part of Azerbaijan. -- AdilBaguirov 00:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Compromise version:
According to medieval chroniclers (e.g., Movses Khorenatsi, Moisey Kalankatuyski), in ancient and medieval times, the region was part of Caucasian Albania. In 1801, the region was made part of the Russian Empire. Under the Russian Empire, the region was a north-eastern part of the Kazakh (Qazakh) uyezd of the Elisavetpol guberniya. With the fall of the Russian Empire, the region, where Azerbaijanis made up 57% and Armenians 39% of the population [23], became part of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR). Throughout their independent existence in 1918-1920, Armenia and Azerbaijan were in dispute over Qazakh region. When the South Caucasus came under British occupation in December 1918, Sir John Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus, decided that affirming the Erivan and Kars guberniyas as part of Democratic Republic of Armenia (DRA) and the Elisavetpol and Baku guberniyas as part of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) would solve the region's outstanding disputes. However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians and Azerbaijanis, and soon the British withdrew from the region in August 1919.
After the British left and more fighting between Armenians and Azerbaijanis ensued, Bolshevik Soviet forces occupied Azerbaijan in April 1920 and Armenia in November 1920. During the process of Sovietization, the borders of the Transcaucasian republics were redrawn several times. By the end of 1921, the territory of the former Kazakh (Qazakh) uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines. [1] The northeastern region, including the town of Qazakh itself was left in Azerbaijan, while the southwestern portion, roughly corresponding to the present-day Armenian province Tavush, was left to Armenia. During the Nagorno-Karabakh War, Armenia gained control/occupied Yukhari Askipara and Barkhudarli, the two exclaves of Qazakh region of Azerbaijan. Besides this, neither country has disputed the boundary since.
-- AdilBaguirov 02:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I have tried hard to make my version unbiased and NPOV, but user Aivazovsky seems to be interested only in what he has been doing best since
August 2006 -- stalling and stonewalling the process! He has taken us all hostage since last August, where even on this small article, he
has been constantly stonewalling and damaging the process of presenting a normal, NPOV version of the article, that has been for far too
long filled with ridiculous, indeed, outrageous errors and Armenian POV. Enough is enough, have the decency to stop these tricks, they are
counterproductive and will not result in me "forgetting" about this page and just going away.
Now, let's review the so-called "problem" that Aivazovsky claims are with the compromise version: 1) the reference to Movses Khorenatsi and Moisey Kalankatuyski, the two medieval chroniclers, Armenian and Caucasian Albanian respectively, who testify that Qazakh region was part of Caucasian Albania.
2) and the statement that Qazakh became part of ADR in 1918, and remained part of Azerbaijan SSR (way before 1931, or 1927, or any other made-up dates of Aivazovsky's mind)
OK, let's tackle both of those made-up "problems" one-by-one (although it has been done already before, most of the evidence will not be new, all "thanks" to Aivazovsky's "strategy" to just ignoring facts and pretending he doesn't see them -- just like he didn't see the made-up 1931 date and many other things already discussed at length above).
Point (1) Moses Khorenatsi, who wrote about the borders of ancient Albania: [first Albanian ruler, Arran] "inherited the Albanian plain with its looking towards mountains side, beginning from the river of Yeraskh [Araxes] till the fortress called Khnarakert..." Here's the fuller excerpt from Book 2, Chapter 8 of Movses Khorenatsi, "History of Armenia", translation from ancient Armenian by G.Sarkisyan, Hayastan Publishing House: Yerevan, 1990, in Russian [24]: "Вслед за тем он учреждает наместничество в великом и, славном, многолюдном северо-восточном крае, вдоль большой реки по названию Кур 47, что прорезает обширную равнину, (назначив) Арана 48, мужа именитого, первого во всех делах мудрости и разума. Узнай, однако, и о людях Сисака,— ибо это великое и именитое племя мы забыли упомянуть в Первой книге,— которые унаследовали Алванскую равнину, включая ее обращенную к горам сторону, от реки Ерасх до крепости, называемой Хнаракерт 49; страна же получила название Алвании из-за его кроткого нрава, ибо его называли «алу» 50. И вот, один из его потомков, упомянутый именитый и доблестный Драя, и был назначен парфянином Валаршаком наместником-десятитысячником. Говорят, что племя утийцев и княжества гардманцев, цавдейцев и гаргарцев происходят от его отпрысков 51."
An additional confirmation of Khnarakert as the border castle can be found in later Armenian historian's as well, such as Hovaness Draskhanakertci's "History of Armenia", Chapter XXXI [25]. Same proof is available in Book I, Chapter IV of Moisey Kalankatuyski's "History of Caucasian Albanians" (published in Yerevan, 1984, translation into Russian by Sh.V.Smbatyan) [26]: “Здесь начинается [история] княжества страны Алуанк. От начала сотворения человеческого рода до царя армянского Валаршака о проживающих близ высоких гор Кавказа мы не можем ничего достоверного рассказать слушателям. При установлении порядка у жителей северных он созвал [представителей] пришлых диких племен, живущих в северной равнине и у подножия Кавказских гор, в долинах и ущельях к югу, до того места, где начинается равнина, и приказал им прекратить разбой и вероломство, платить покорно царские подати. Затем [царь] назначил им вождей и правителей, во главе которых по приказу Валаршака был поставлен некто из рода Сисака, одного из потомков Иафета, по имени Аран, который унаследовал долины и горы страны Алуанк, от реки Ерасх до крепости hЫнаракерт [Ðݳñ³Ï»ñï]. Из-за его [Арана] мягкого нрава страна эта была названа Алуанк, ибо из-за мягкого нрава звали его Алу. Многие храбрые и знатные из потомков этого Арана, говорят, были назначены Валаршаком Партевом наместниками и тысячниками. От его [Арана] сына, произошли племена [½³·ë] Утийского, Гардманского, Цавдейского, Гаргарского княжеств. До сих пор указание о родословной."
So, then where is this Khnarakert castle? The answer we can find, for example, in Anania Shirakatsi's "Ashkharatsuyts" (Armenian Geography) or in the abovementioned Hovaness Draskhanakertci's "History of Armenia" book published in Armenia (and residing on Armenian server): [27]
"Хунаракерт (а также Хнаракерт) — древняя крепость и город с епископской резиденцией, расположенный там, где смыкаются границы Армении, Алванка и Грузии, недалеко от устья р. Храм, близ современной Кызкала. (Армения по «Ашхарацуйц»-у, с. 63; Крепости Армении, с. 485—486)."
Translation: "Khunarakert (also Khnarakert) -- ancient castle and city with episcopal residency, located there, where borders of Armenia, Albania and Georgia come together, not far from the mouth of Khram river, near modern Qizqala (Armenia according to "Ashkharatsuyts", p. 63; Castles of Armenia, pp. 485-486)".
OK, then where is this Qizqala village? It is the modern village Akhchkaberd of the former Ijevan rayon of Armenia (currently Tavush marz, near the mouth of the Akstafa river. That is Armenians changed the Azerbaijani name of Qizqala to Akhchkaberd.
For proof about geography (to save you time from looking on the maps, hoping to prove me wrong at least once), again from Hovaness Draskhanakertci's book published in Armenia (and residing on Armenian server):
[28] "140. Кайеан (также Кайан, Кайен) — крепость, была построена в начале Х в. Впервые в армянской книжности была упомянута в Истории Иов. Драсх. Как полагает Р. Матевосян, крепость Кайеан можно отождествить с Ахчкабердом (Кызкала) в совр. Иджеван,ском р-не Арм. ССР, которая занимала стратегически очень выгодное положение на одном из ответвлений хребта Ховк и доминировала над долиной р. Акстев. (См.: Матевосян. Р. Ташир-Дзорагет (X—начало XII вв.). Ер., 1982, с. 21—38, на арм. яз.)."
Translating the applicable part: "Akhchkaberd (Qizqala) in modern Ijevan rayon of Armenian SSR, which occupied a very advantageous location from the strategic point of view, on one of the branches of the Khovk ridge and dominated over the valley of the river Akstev [Armenian for Akstafa].
Hence, we prove that all medieval chroniclers unanimously agreed that Khnarakert was part of Caucasian Albania, and that Khnarakert actually is located not only in the former Kazakh uezd, but in Ijevan/Tavush region of Armenia -- that is not only all of the modern Qazakh rayon/region was part of Caucasian Albania, but in fact most of the former Qazakh uezd was.
Now let's move on to Point (2). How can one object to Qazakh being part of ADR, when:
a) As of mid-1918, even Armenian sources acknowledge that the whole territory of DDR was only consisting of Erivan guberniya, per the June 4, 1918 Treaty with Turkey: "от 4 июня 1918 г. территория Армении составляла всего 12 тыс. кв. км.... В таких условиях Армения была отрезана от Карабаха и не могла оказать ему действенную помошь." (English translation: "from 4 June 1918, territory of Armenia totaled only 12 thousand square kilometers... In such conditions, Armenia was cut off from Karabakh and could not provide it with tangible assistance." (Suren Zolyan, "Nagorno-Karabakh: Problem and Conflict." // "Chapter 2. Nagorno-Karabakh in years 1918-1920." Yerevan: Lingva, 2001, http://www.armenianhouse.org/zolyan/nf-ru/karabakh/2.html )
b) In fact, here's from an Armenian website that makes clear that there was no question of the entire former Kazakh uezd, but only part of it, that is today part of Armenia: "после чего 2 декабря полномочным представителем РСФСР в Армении т. Леграном было подписано соглашение с представителями дашнакской Армении об объявлении Армении независимой Социалистической Советской Республикой. По этому соглашению до созыва Съезда Советов Армении образуется временный Военно-революционный комитет, к которому переходит вся власть в Армении. Определяется территория ССРА: Эриванская губерния, часть Карсской области, Зангезурский уезд, часть Казахского уезда и те части Тифлисской губернии, которые находились в обладании Армении до 28 сентября 1920 г." [29] Translation into English: "after which on 2 December [1920] by the plenipotentiary representative of RSFSR [Soviet Russia] in Armenia, comrade Legran there was an agreement signed with the representaive of Dashnak Armenia about announcing Armenia as the independent Soviet Socialist Republic [SSRA]. According to this agreement, until the call up of the Assembly of Soviet [Parliament] of Armenia, a temporary Military-revolutionary committee is formed, to which the entire power in Armenia is being passed. The territory of SSRA is being defined: Erivan guberniya, part of Kars oblast, Zangezur uezd, part of Kazakh uezd and those part of Tiflis guberniya, which were in possession of Armenia before 28 September 1920." [30]
c) So as you see, it clearly mentions "part of Kazakh uezd", that is the western half of the former Kazakh uezd. Also, see the map from J.H.M. Cornwall. "The Russo-Turkish Boundary and the Territory of Nakhchivan",The Geographical Journal, Vol. 61, No. 6. (Jun., 1923), pp. 446, which also shows Qazakh as part of Azerbaijan.
d) Here's another quote from yet another Armenian source, the Armenica encyclopedia: [31], Chapter: ОКТЯБРЬСКАЯ РЕВОЛЮЦИЯ И УСТАНОВЛЕНИЕ СОВЕТСКОЙ ВЛАСТИ В АРМЕНИИ
"Еще в июне 1920 г. завершилось организационное оформление Коммунистической партии Армении, которая возглавила революционные выступления трудящихся против правительства дашнаков. В сентябре 1920 г. Кавказское бюро ЦК РКП (б) утвердило состав Центрального Комитета Коммунистической партии Армении. В середине ноября 1920 г. в Баку был образован Военно-Революционный комитет Армении—Саркис Касьян (председатель), Аскаяаз Мравян, Саак Тер-Габриелян, Александр Бекзадян и др. В конце ноября Военно-Революционный Комитет Армении перебрался в Казах—на границу с Арменией. Здесь же находился Армянский полк, который был сформирован из повстанцев, отступивших на территорию Советского Азербайджана после поражения Майского восстания. Ранним утром 29 ноября 1920 г. Революционный Комитет Армении вместе с армянским повстанческим отрядом пересек границу и вступил в Иджеван. Пограничные части дашнакской армии не только не оказали сопротивления, но и перешли на сторону революционных сил. Трудящиеся Иджеванского района восторженно встретили повстанцев, в Иджеване была установлена Советская власть. В тот же день Революционный Комитет Армении опубликовал в Иджеване свою декларацию о провозглашении Армении Советской Социалистической Республикой.
Translation of bold parts, my CAPS: "In the middle of November 1920, in Baku, the Military-Revolutionary Committee of Armenia was established -- Sarkis KAsyan (chairman), Askayaz Mravyan, Saak Ter-Gabriyelyan, Alexander Bekzadyan, and others. In the end of November, the Military-Revolutionary Committee of Armenia relocated to Qazakh - ON THE BORDER WITH Armenia. Here the Armenian regiment, which was formed from insurgents, who RETREATED TO THE TERRITORY OF Soviet Azerbaijan after the defeat of May insurgency, was located. Early in the morning of 29 November 1920, the Revolutionary Committee of Armenia together with Armenian insurgents force CROSSED THE BORDER and came into Ijevan. BORDER troops of Dashnak army not only didn't resist, but switched to the side of revolutionary forces."
e) This is also confirmed by none other than the Dashnak Prime Minister, Hovhanes Kachaznuni in his book: "The Turks had already occupied Alexandropol. In the meantime the Armenian Bolsheviks at the head of the Red troops entered Itchevan and Dilijan".
(source: H.Kachaznuni. "Dashnaktsutsyun has nothing to do anymore". Originally published by Mhitaryan Publishing House, Vienna, 1923, in Armenian languaguage, translated into English, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, re-published in 2006, p. 52)
f) We should also note that both ADR and Georgia were the FIRST one's to be de facto recognized by the League of Nations on January 12, 1920 because they had more legitimacy and more stable borders -- Armenia was recognized LATER, and despite existing some 7 months longer than ADR, never achieved de jure recognition (which ADR would have had it been independent in November 1920). Here's from a Georgian historian Avtandil Menteshashvili [www.georgianweb.com/history/rus/avtandil/chapter2.html]:
"Министр иностранных дел Англии Дж. Керзон подчеркивал тогда: «Вопрос о признании Грузии связан и с признанием других закавказских республик, что в свою очередь связано с решением всего русского вопроса и, хоть и в меньшей степени, с условиями мирного договора с Турцией» (*73). В меморандуме МИД Великобритании от 24 декабря 1919 г. давались рекомендации своему правительству «продолжать воздерживаться от признания независимости Грузии и Азербайджана до тех пор, пока не определится окончательно положение генерала Деникина» (*74). 12 января 1920 г., когда стал ясен крах деникинцев, Верховный совет Антанты (за исключением США) признал де-факто независимость Грузии и Азербайджана, а впоследствии и Армении. Эти три республики по плану Антанты должны были служить буферами между РСФСР и другими странами Востока. 10 февраля 1920 г. главы делегаций Грузии и Азербайджана в Париже направили послу США во Франции пиьсмо. В нем говорилось: «Две закавказские республики – Грузия и Азербайджан получили как независимые государства признание «де-факто» Верховным советом союзнических держав в Париже, то есть Францией, Великобританией и Италией, а затем и Японией. Это признание «де-факто», безусловно, официальное и определенное, до сих пор не было подтверждено державой, которая в глазах народов закавказских республик является воплощением великих принципов свободы и справедливости, – Соединенными Штатами Америки. Американские миссии за последнее время множество раз посещали эти республики, получив всемерную информацию. Федеральному правительству хорошо известно желание закавказских народов наладить прочные связи с великой американской демократией». В заключение выражалось сожалиение по поводу такого непризнания со стороны США независимых Грузии и Азербайджана (*75).
So, here once again, we see that Armenia, from its foundation in May 1918, was a weak and small state, that could only dream and claim regions such as Qazakh, but not have any control over it. The only time Armenia received full control over Qazakh was temporarily, after ethnic cleansing and massacres of Azerbaijanis, from the end of March 1920 for a few months -- by September 1920, when it declared war on Turkey (and was quickly defeated by Kazim Karabekir Pasha by November 1920) and by which time Soviets had a fairly strong control over the entire Azerbaijan as far as Naxcivan (do you need proof of that?), Armenia must have relinquished its occupation. So here, even if we are generous, Armenia occupied all of Qazakh for about 5-6 months in 1920, that's it. By November 1920 -- when even Georgia occupied Lori region of Armenia (and Aivazovsky admitted that) -- and signed a humiliating Alexandropol Treaty with Turkey, Armenia was in no position to occupy anyone or anything. Hence, as all the evidence, most of it from ARMENIAN sources, proves, Qazakh was Azerbaijan's BEFORE 1920, and AFTER 1920.
Aivazovsky, if even after this definitive asnwer to your stonewalling you still do not agree to my compromise version, then you should just remove yourself from all future debates. -- AdilBaguirov 07:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
How much evidences should be presented to move ahead over obstacle created by Aivazovsky who presented only one source - Andersen, which is now obvious quite questionable. Adil have tens of sources.--
Dacy69 14:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is it important to have the Armenian version of the city's name in the introduction? Parishan 05:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Per our discussion, which was so nicely archived by Aivazovsky, I've modified the article to better reflect tonns of evidence I have presented. I am not quoting all the sources I have presented, but if needed to, can.
According to medieval chroniclers (e.g., Movses Khorenatsi [1], Hovaness Draskhanakertci, [2] and Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) [3]), in ancient and medieval times, the region was part of Caucasian Albania. In 1801, the region was made part of the Russian Empire. Under the Russian Empire, the region was a northeastern part of the Kazakh (Qazakh) uyezd of the Elisavetpol Guberniya. With the fall of the Russian Empire, the region, where Azerbaijanis made up 57% and Armenians 39% of the population Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary. "Kazakh". St. Petersburg, 1890-1907, became part of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR). Throughout their independent existence in 1918-1920, Armenia and Azerbaijan were in dispute over Qazakh region. When the South Caucasus came under British occupation in December 1918, Sir John Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus, decided that affirming the Erivan Governorate and the Kars Oblast to Democratic Republic of Armenia (DRA) and the Elisavetpol Governorate and Baku Governorate to the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) would solve the region's outstanding disputes. However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians and Azerbaijanis, and soon the British withdrew from the region in August 1919.
After the British evacuation and more fighting between Armenians and Azerbaijanis ensued, the Soviet Eleventh Army led by Grigoriy Ordzhonikidze occupied Azerbaijan on April 28, 1920 and Armenia by December 1, 1920. During the process of Sovietization, the borders of the Transcaucasian republics were redrawn several times. By the end of 1921, the territory of the former Kazakh (Qazakh) uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines. [4] The northeastern region, including the town of Qazakh itself was left in Azerbaijan, while the southwestern portion, roughly corresponding to the present-day Armenian province Tavush, was left to Armenia. [5] During the Nagorno-Karabakh War, Armenia gained control/occupied Yukhari Askipara and Barkhudarli, the two exclaves of Qazakh region of Azerbaijan. Besides this, neither country has disputed the boundary since.
-- adil 06:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's a new interesting quote I recently found, that is of ethnographic importance: When describing the events leading to the Turkmanchay Treaty, a contemporary military historian notes the following ethnographic detail: "Abbas Mirza's route lay through the country of the great tribe of the Casaks, which is extremely strong and thickly wooded." He further notes that: "These have no connection with the Russian Cossacks. They are descended from men of the Kirgis Casaks, left by Genghis Khan, and are Mahomedans of the Soonnie [Sunni Muslims] sect. They are frequently called Kara Papaks, from wearing black sheep-skin caps." [6] -- adil 06:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, you are right that I didn't provide neutral sources -- instead, I stuck mostly to Armenian sources. :) I definitely want to mention the ancient history, and if anyone wants to debate the facts I've presented -- let them go ahead, they don't have any chance against primary sources -- and I provided not one, not two, but three primary sources, of which two are Armenian. I will start inserting more info about the Azerbaijani khanates and dynasties that ruled it too, such as Atabeks, Safavids, Afshars, Qajars, if needed, too, as well as Seljuks, Shaddadids, Mongols and Arabs. For now I don't to avoid debates. About the 1921 see the extensive facts presented -- in any case, by 1922 USSR formation, Azerbaijan entered with Qazakh, and as facts show, Qazakh was part of ADR without any Armenian occupation or claims at least until the beginning of 1919. You simply don't have any sources that dispute the fact that by USSR's and Transcaucasian Fed formation, Qazakh was not part of Azerbaijan. -- adil 16:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Aside from other disputes, can anyone please explain why the following quote was removed:
When describing the events leading to the Turkmanchay Treaty, a contemporary military historian notes the following ethnographic detail: "Abbas Mirza's route lay through the country of the great tribe of the Casaks, which is extremely strong and thickly wooded." He further notes that: "These have no connection with the Russian Cossacks. They are descended from men of the Kirgis Casaks, left by Genghis Khan, and are Mahomedans of the Soonnie [Sunni Muslims] sect. They are frequently called Kara Papaks, from wearing black sheep-skin caps."
ref: Lt-Gen. William Monteith, Kars and Erzeroum: With the Campaigns of Prince Paskiewitch, in 1828 and 1829; and an Account of the conquests of Russia beyond the Caucasus, from the time of Peter the Great to the Treaty of Turcoman Chie and Adrianople, London: Longman, 1856, p. 60
In my opinion, it is verifiable info and should remain in the article. Grandmaster 05:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Adil's edit is also well-referenced. Khoikhoi who reverted it - would be good to explain this motion. What is wrong with those sources?-- Dacy69 05:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, thus far no one put forward reasonable objection. Let's wait for some time. I believe that edit in Wikipedia should be removed if there is strong and well-explained objection produced. But, taking into account the long debate on this page, we can wait for certain time.-- Dacy69 06:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Khoikhoi, with due respect, it is not understandable your eager here. Aivazovsky, Euaptor or someone else failed to make reasanoble opposition to last edit and references brought by Adil but you are still reverting. Euaptor just said that it is not serious which should be further explained. The same with Aivazovsky. Removal of text should be accompanied by explanation either.-- Dacy69 15:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, it was me who approached you on that and later I have seen to what it was turned into. About edit - I don't see well grounded explanation why we should not write thoroughly Qazakh history or use ancient sources about Qazakh. It obviously might not fit someone opinion. Again - total failure to object in essence to citations and references. Blind removal of 6 references and at at the same time - how it comes - it is ok to leave your reference? maybe we can resolve this issue through mediation? -- Dacy69 15:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
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Again Andrew Andersen is the only source for the claims that Kazakh was transfered to Azerbaijan in 1931. I would suggest to get a confirmation from another source. Grandmaster 12:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I don’t think the information of Andersen on transfer of Kazakh rayon to Azerbaijan in 1931 is credible for a simple reason – it was part of Yelizavetpol governorate, which you said was assigned to Azerbaijan. How come then that one of the uyezds of Yelizavetpol with predominant Azeri population became part of Armenia?
Here’s the article on Kazakh uyezd from Brokhauz: [1] Grandmaster 09:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
No references provided to legitimate journal articles. This "PhD" does not hold water. Atabek 02:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm apologize for not noticing the Armenian source. Still, non of these sources appear to confirm your point. Before 1931, the uyezd was in partial possession of Georgia so the phrase "part of Kazakh uezd" can easily be read to mean that. What other sources do I have proving that the borders did not change until 1931? How about maps made before 1931 and maps showing the area before 1931? Two maps here are from Konstantin Bazilevich's book:
I also doubt that "someone mistyped 1931 for 1921." All the best, Aivazovsky 12:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for forgetting sign in. Andersen's website which is given as a basis for information is very dubious as it was pointed out previously. He does not cite any soutces in the body of his text (research). All assumption on such matters should be referred properly to original sources of that period.-- Dacy69 20:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there are many webisites which don't cite their sources. And in this case such research is dubious, unless this sites are not about well-known facts. Here we have the disputable case. Andersen makes several mistakes. Moreover, this one man site - it is not of reputable instituion, encyclopedia, etc. If I tomorrow create website - what it means - information there is blessed as by the only truth?-- Dacy69 21:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
While Andersen does not cite his sources we have the following: 1. Qazakh uezd was 5,908 sq. km according to Caucasian Calendar of 1903 printed in Tiflis (p.30) (Tbilisi) - Кавказский календарь на 1903 год. Статистические сведения. Типография А.В.Кутеладзе, Тифлис. 2. Azerbaijan Communist Central Committee (AзЦИК) (mostly comprised by non-Azeri) on its meeting on 22 April 1922 (after Azerbaijan was incorporated into Transcaucasian Federation) decided, after the hearing of the report of "the Committe on administrative re-arrangement of Azerbaijan": "Leave Qazakh uezd in its former administrative borders without any changes" (Казахский уезд оставить в старых административных границах и в отношении этих границ не вносить никаких изменений") - State Archive of Azerbaijan's Political Parties and Public Movements (Former Soviet Communist Party Archive) ГАППОДАР. ф.1, оп. 74, д. 127, л.160-161
So if it were a part of Armenia, as Andersen claims, the desicion would have had different language. Yes, Qazakh uezd was a part of ADR-DRA dispute but was not in the possesion of Dashnaks. However after 1922 incrementally, piece by piece certain part of Qazakh uezd (rayon) was given to Armenia.-- Dacy69 22:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh wait nevermind! The mistake was on my part! The territorial adjustments weren't made in 1931, they were actually made between 1923 and 1928. Here's a direct quote from Andersen's website:
I'll fix this now. -- Aivazovsky 01:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, the attached map is from J.H.M. Cornwall. "The Russo-Turkish Boundary and the Territory of Nakhchivan",The Geographical Journal, Vol. 61, No. 6. (Jun., 1923), pp. 446
Now take a careful look at the Eastern border of Armenia, and provide further proofs that Kazakh uyezd ever belonged to Armenia prior to 1931. My grandparents were born in Kazakh uyezd in 1920s, and no one ever remembers Kazakh belonging to Armenian SSR, but indeed Western part of it was ceded to Armenian SSR under Soviet regime, in form of Karvansaray (which was renamed to Ijevan), Allahverdi (Alaverdi), Noyemberyan raions, etc. But apart from those, based on the map presented, you should denounce your claims to both Karabakh and Kazakh uyezd altogether. Atabek 01:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Gokcha (Goycha) is the historic name of the lake, predating Russian control.
However, once again, the problems with Andersen's Original Research and essentially a POV, is that he does not cite any sources at all, he is not a well-published historian, his research is hosted only on some unauthoritative websites, and he is contradicting both evidence and simple logic. Moreover, none of the maps and counter-arguments you have presented in his defense withstand a simple factual and historic test, and in fact, appear to have been manipulated by being misrepresented (e.g., when maps clearly say they are from 1921-22, they are mislabeled as for 1931). The old version of the page, as written and maintained by Aivazovsky, is incorrect and has been edited to make it NPOV. Aivazovsky, you had time since August 2006, when first questions of the reliability started to be pondered, to either re-write he article and make it NPOV, or present more authoritative, solid, third-party sources in defense of your postulates. Since none has happened, please don't engage in Revert war, don't violate the 3RR rule which you already did violate massively, and don't undo NPOV changes. Thanks. P.S. And not sure where you took yet another date, 1928, from. The borders were settled by the end of 1921, although gradual changes continued, by having Azerbaijani lands in Zangezur (well, whatever remained of it after its transfer was done in 1921), Qazakh and Naxcivan (stopped in 1930) being transferred to Armenia until 1969, and then once more again in 1982. -- AdilBaguirov 02:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
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help)Alright, with the help of my local library's website, I can now access the Geographical Journal references recommended by Kober and Atabek. I'll comment on these later. Unfortunately, I still can't get to Central Asian Survey's "Caucasian Boundaries. Documents and Maps. 1802–1946" which I'm eager to have access to, because it will give us even more insight into the borders of the Caucasus at this time. All the best, Aivazovsky 15:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, so let's finalize the problems with Aivazovsky's version of history and editing of the page, which he has been misrepresenting since August of 2006, despite repeated objections and appeals to do more research and edit the page in a NPOV way:
1) Andrew Andersen is not an authoritative scholar on the issue, his writing is available only at an amateur website;
2) Andersen fails to cite even a single source regarding his thesis;
3) The date "1931", which was the claimed date until which all of Qazakh was allegedly part of Armenia, after repeated objections and evidence to the contrary, has been acknowledged by Aivazovsky as mistaken, and now a new date, 1928, has been placed instead;
4) Not a single map has been presented which would show any of the claims, especially regarding Qazakh being part of Armenia from about 1922 until 1928 (and before, until 1931), true;
5) All maps shown by Aivazovsky as "evidence" of Qazakh, and other territories, being "Armenian", until first 1931, and now 1928, have been mislabeled and misrepresented, as they all show borders at most until 1922, although most likely summer of 1921 (one map was supposedly done in 1924, but shows completely wrong borders for Crimea, Ajaria, South Ossetia, NKAO);
6) In fact, a fully referenced scholarly map of 1921 shows Qazakh in Azerbaijan [10]
7) Another archival evidence also shows that Armenia only had (and has to this day) only part of the former Qazakh uezd (the other part became what is known as Qazakh region (rayon) of Azerbaijan):
"after which on 2 December [1920] by the plenipotentiary representative of RSFSR [Soviet Russia] in Armenia, comrade Legran there was an agreement signed with the representaive of Dashnak Armenia about announcing Armenia as the independent Soviet Socialist Republic [SSRA]. According to this agreement, until the call up of the Assembly of Soviet [Parliament] of Armenia, a temporary Military-revolutionary committee is formed, to which the entire power in Armenia is being passed. The territory of SSRA is being defined: Erivan guberniya, part of Kars oblast, Zangezur uezd, part of Kazakh uezd and those part of Tiflis guberniya, which were in possession of Armenia before 28 September 1920." [11]
8) The date 28 September 1920 is named for a reason -- after years of attacks and occupation of parts of Eastern Turkey, the Turkish army under the command of Gen. Kazim Karabekir Pasha defeated Dashnak Armenia in a barely two month campaign, and the Alexandropol Treaty was signed.
9) Prior to that, during the initial negotiations over the founding of ADR and DDR in May 28, 1918, ADR actually ceeded its territory of former Erivan guberniya (where majority of population were Muslim Azerbaijanis) to newly founded Armenia. This was announed the PM Khan Khoyski of ADR in his 29 May 1918 telegram. ЦГАОР Аз. ССР, ф. 970, оп. 1, ед. хр. 1, л. 51.
10) As of mid-1918, even Armenian sources acknowledge that the whole territory of DDR was only consisting of Erivan guberniya: "от 4 июня 1918 г. территория Армении составляла всего 12 тыс. кв. км.... В таких условиях Армения была отрезана от Карабаха и не могла оказать ему действенную помошь." (from 4 June 1918, territory of Armenia totaled only 12 thousand square kilometers... In such conditions, Armenia was cut off from Karabakh and could not provide it with tangible assistance." (Suren Zolyan, "Nagorno-Karabakh: Problem and Conflic." // "Chapter 2. Nagorno-Karabakh in years 1918-1920." Yerevan: Lingva, 2001, http://www.armenianhouse.org/zolyan/nf-ru/karabakh/2.html)
11) Qazakh uezd was 5,908 sq. km according to Caucasian Calendar of 1903 printed in Tiflis (p.30) (Tbilisi) - Кавказский календарь на 1903 год. Статистические сведения. Типография А.В.Кутеладзе, Тифлис. Meanwhile, the Azerbaijan Communist Central Committee (AзЦИК) (mostly comprised by non-Azeri) on its meeting on 22 April 1922 (after Azerbaijan was incorporated into Transcaucasian Federation) decided, after the hearing of the report of "the Committe on administrative re-arrangement of Azerbaijan": "Leave Qazakh uezd in its former administrative borders without any changes" (Казахский уезд оставить в старых административных границах и в отношении этих границ не вносить никаких изменений") - State Archive of Azerbaijan's Political Parties and Public Movements (Former Soviet Communist Party Archive) ГАППОДАР. ф.1, оп. 74, д. 127, л.160-161
So if it were a part of Armenia, as Andersen claims, the desicion would have had different language. Yes, Qazakh uezd was a part of ADR-DRA dispute but was not in the possession of Dashnaks. However after 1922 incrementally, piece by piece certain part of Qazakh uezd (rayon) was given to Armenia.
12) See: The Geographical Journal, Vol. 69, No. 6. (Jun., 1927), read pages 436-437, Kazakh District - Azerbaijan.
13) Aivazovsky refuses to scan and make available the subsequent (after 1921) maps from the Tsutsiev atlas, which would show borders for Azerbaijan and Armenia to correspond more or less to present-day borders, and thus Qazakh region firmly inside Azerbaijan.
14) there are many more archival documents and references showing that neither the Andersen's writings, nor the position taken by Aivazovsky is corresponding to the historic reality. -- AdilBaguirov 20:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky - would you agree for mediation on this? If yes, we can file a request and let third party help with this-- Dacy69 22:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, you are stalling and sabotaging the constructive work, you've had time since August 2006 (!) and have refused to change the POV. This is unacceptable.
Here's the additional source, that Kober mentioned, "New Political Boundaries in the Caucasus", W.E.D. Allen, The Geographical Journal, Vol. 69, No. 5. (May, 1927), pp. 430-441. Before I provide quotes, it should be noted that WED Allen has reviewed all the major official publications and books in Russian about the new Soviet boundaries, and listed them in his article, but they are too lengthy to reproduce. However, this assures that he has done an expert job and scrupolou research. Also important, at the end of the article, he includes a folding map of Caucasus, produced by the Royal Geographical Society, which has borders almost same as today's, with Qazakh city and part of Qazakh region inside Azerbaijan, and another part of the former Qakakh uezd, inside Armenia. Also, Armenia does not touch Kura river. Hence, once more, all insinuations and allegations to the contrary have once again been disproven. The Qazakh page must be changed as soon as possible to reflect the historic reality, not the POV of some ideologically motivated editor and his unscholarly and unacademic amateur websites.
"Boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics
GEORGIA S.S.R. (capital Tiflis, which is also the capital of the TSFSR) comprises the former Government (Guberniya) of Tiflis [with the exception of the Circuit (okrug) of Zakatali and part of the District (uezd) of Borchalu] and the whole of the former Government of Kutais. There are three lesser units either united with or included in the Republic." (p. 433)
"The eastern boundary of Georgia with Azerbaijan follows the old local boundaries of the Districts of Signakh and Tiflis; and that with Armenia follows the former boundaries between the Governments of Tiflis and Erivan, with the exception that the Circuit of Lori, formerly in the Georgian District of Borchalu, is now part of the Armenian District of Bambak." (p. 434)
"AZERBAIJAN S.S.R. (capital Baku) comprises the whole of the former Government of Baku and the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), with the exception of the District of Zangezur, and part of that of Kazakh, and includes the Zakatali Circuit of the former Government of Tiflis." (p. 436)
"The southern frontier of Azerbaijan follows the old Russo-Persian forntier of 1914: the river Astara, the Talish chain - Belyasuvar - whence it cuts due north-west across the Mughan Steppe, to its junction with the Araxes, which it follows to the Armenian boundary, where the small district of megrin alone separates Azerbaijan from its autonomous protectorate of Nakhichevan." (p. 437)
"ARMENIA S.S.R. (capital Erivan) includes the former Government of Erivan, with the exception of the Districs of Surmali (Turkish) and of Nakhichevan. It includes also, from the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), the District of Zangezur, and part of the District of Kazakh, formed by the Region of Delijan. The Lori Region, formerly part of the government of Tiflis, is also included in Armenia." (p. 437).
-- AdilBaguirov 13:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have been doing some research trying to find the identity of this "historian" Andrew Andersen "PhD", find which university, school, college, publication, conference, etc. he is associated with, so that to check the credibility. So far I found none! Except for the amateurs website: http://www.conflicts.rem33.com the so called "historian" has absolutely no teaching or scientific publication reference. Where is his CV? Where is his publication list? How is it comparable to expert scholarly works such as those by Firuz Kazemzadeh, W.A.D. Allen, etc. Andersen's work as it's now serves nothing more than fueling baseless ethnic and territorial claims of one country to another, and he has neither credibility nor references to support that. Atabek 17:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I think that this has gone on for far too long and I'm tired of Adil attacking me as "sabotaging the constructive work".
I still hold that Andersen is a credible source. I've given you his biography showing you that he indeed has a PhD and even Kober entered this debate to uphold his reputation. I don't think that his work "serves nothing more than fueling baseless ethnic and territorial claims of one country to another." I'm sorry if you believe that the only reason why he's included here is to assert some sort of Armenian claim over Qazakh. The Armenians don't even want Qazakh. The Armenian government never even expressed an interest in it.
Anyway, the root of the problem is who administered the region after the collapse of the Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic and before Sovietization. I haven't had much time to really investigate Andersen's claims (I didn't neglect this article on purpose as Adil states), though, it should be noted that it is incredibly difficult to find any objective source about the Caucasus from this period. Still, I think the best solution, for the sake of compromise, would be to do this:
Under the Russian Empire, the rayon was part of the Kazakh uyezd of the Elisavetpol guberniya. With the fall of the Russian Empire, dispute over the region arose between the Armenians (who made up 39% of the population) and the Azerbaijanis (who comprised 57%). When the South Caucasus came under British occupation, Sir John Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus, decided that assigning the Erivan and Kars guberniyas to Democratic Republic of Armenia (DRA) and the Elisavetpol and Baku guberniyas to the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) would solve the region's outstanding disputes. However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians (who did not wish to give up their claims to Kazakh, Zangezur (today Syunik), and Nagorno-Karabakh) and Azerbaijanis (who found it unacceptable to give up their claims to Nakhichevan). As conflict broke out between the two groups, the British left the region in mid-1919.
After the British left and more fighting between Armenians and Azeris ensued, Bolshevik forces gained control of the region and annexed it to the Soviet Union. During the process of Sovietization, the borders of the Transcaucasian republics were redrawn several times. By 1927, the territory of the former Kazakh uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines. The northern region, including the town of Qazakh itself was given to Azerbaijan while the southern portion, roughly corresponding to the present-day Armenian province Tavush was given to Armenia. Neither country has disputed this boundary since.
So we're basically just saying that after the Wardrop proposal fell through, the region became disputed and the Bolsheviks took over and divided it along ethnic and sectarian lines (part was given to Armenia, part was given to Azerbaijan). As you can see, the St. Petersburg source and the first Andersen source will be retained. The second Andersen and the Azerbaijan State Archive sources shall be removed and in their place will be New Political Boundaries in the Caucasus, W.E.D. Allen, The Geographical Journal. Sound good? All the best, Aivazovsky 17:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, I'm not sure why would you misinterpret my (and everyone's) endorsement of WED Allen's article and somehow twist it to make seem like your statement: "By 1927, the territory of the former Kazakh uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines" would be satisfactory and true. Your date of 1927 (first, your preferred date was 1931, as we all remember) is misinterpreted, since you've already been presented more than enough sources such as W.E.D. Allen's. He PUBLISHED his article in May 1927 in a prestigious journal, after familiarizing himself and properly citing all other relevant publications -- something Mr. Andersen has not done at all. Obviously years are needed, especially in turbulent 1920s, for all official publications to appear, and he is especially proud to note that he familiarized himself with the official Soviet maps of 1925 (and another official July 1923 map), based on which his map in the article is drawn, on Soviet Constitution, on the British official documents, etc. I.e., he is a historian who writes about the past, not a journalist who writes about the present. Reflecting in 1927 about events of 1920-21 is very appropriate, as enough materials appear. Thus make no mistake, W.E.D. Allen wrote primarily about 1920-21, the time when Soviets were actually drawing most of the borders, particularly Qazakhs. Here's EXACTLY what he wrote in the section "Boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics":
"AZERBAIJAN S.S.R. (capital Baku) comprises the whole of the former Government of Baku and the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), with the exception of the District of Zangezur, and part of that of Kazakh, and includes the Zakatali Circuit of the former Government of Tiflis." (p. 436)
"ARMENIA S.S.R. (capital Erivan) includes the former Government of Erivan, with the exception of the Districs of Surmali (Turkish) and of Nakhichevan. It includes also, from the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), the District of Zangezur, and part of the District of Kazakh, formed by the Region of Delijan. The Lori Region, formerly part of the government of Tiflis, is also included in Armenia." (p. 437).
Obviously, there were no major border changes in 1927, and indeed, none since summer of 1921 -- so his "boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics" is clearly reflecting that.
Also, he makes an important statement about March 1922 meeting of 3 republics and wanting to join USSR, a request which was approved on December 1922. He then reminds the important treaties of Moscow and Kars, both signed in 1921, and then writes: "The frontiers of the Federation with the Russian S.F.S.R. and with Turkey may be considered in conjunction with the specific boundaries of the different Republics". In other words, by March 1922, and indeed, by October 1921 (Kars Treaty), all 3 republics had stable borders and joined USSR with such stable borders, and had stable outside borders too. The first phase of Soviet border drawing ended in 1921.
Anyhow, calm down, you can cite Andersen elsewhere if you want, as long as his writings comply with elementary scholarly rules. As of your proposal on removal of history section, quite the contrary, it should be expanded. Here's the start: map from Great Soviet Encyclopedia, entitled "Struggle for Soviet power in Azerbaijan (October 1917-August 1918) [12] (where you can see Qazakh and how large the uezd was as opposed to the rayon, and Turkish army and Azerbaijani army marched through it in 1918), and from same source, "Azerbaijan and neighboring regions in the first half of 19th century", which shows that Qazakh was made part of Russian Empire in 1801, like Aghstafa region and Eastern Georgia. [13]. We can then cite Movses Dasxuranci (Moisey Kalankatuyski) and even Movses Khorenatsi about borders of Caucasian Albania extending to the Khnarakert castle. But far more pressing is fixing the unfortunate mistakes and misrepresentations in this article that have gone unfixed since August 2006 despite repeated friendly appeals to fix it. -- AdilBaguirov 19:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky asked me to have a look at this, so here goes. The dispute is regarding Andersen, right? What we can do is still include him, but also include a source with an opposing POV, and state the two viewpoints, both Armenian and Azeri. Another option is to only include Armenian and Azeri sources, showing what both sides think. Khoi khoi 08:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I personally don’t think that Andersen can be used as a source for this or any other article in Wikipedia. According to the rules:
Self-published sources (online and paper) Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.
Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so. [14]
I don’t think that whatever information Andersen placed on his personal website has previously been published by any reputable publisher. Therefore, Andersen cannot be accepted as a source. Grandmaster 07:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I second Grandmaster opinion. I checked Calgary University. His credibility for the purposes in this page is under question.-- Dacy69 14:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, I looked at the website that you provided, which comes from archiving service and yet to be proven that the archived page belonged to university. Moreover, if you have familiarized yourself with works of Andersen and use them as scholarly reference in discussion, please, provide us not with his bio but with his curriculum vitae, consisting of list of publications at conferences or in journals, his books. Also, please, quote the particular source/article/book/page number of Andersen's work, where you have obtained the indicated map as well as the opinion that Kazakh was controlled by Armenia until 1931. Since you quickly replaced your quote to 1927 recently, I also want you to provide precise quotes saying it was between 1923 and 1927 that Armenia controlled Kazakh town and rayon of modern Azerbaijan. If you're, however, unable to provide such references, we should request the attention of administrators to have independent investigation and lift the block and remove the POV from this particular Wiki page. Atabek 22:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
First of all I strongly suspect that Andrew Andersen is not the person's birth name, see his bio here: Andrew Andersen was born in the USSR and grew up in Siberia and Latvia. He received his Master's degree from Moscow State University in 1980 where he later taught. I am quite sure there was no "Andrew Anderson" among professors in Moscow State University.
Second, the bio says "Andersen has written a number of books", but I failed to find any. The conflicts.rem33.com website doesn't mention any either.
There was a fuss in UVic about accusations of prof Andersen in racism and having been fired on these grounds in 2003, which contradicts to the opinion of user:Ldingley about his reputation. In any case, I would expect user:Ldingley to provide some solid proof of his opinion, if he wants it to be taken seriously.
Third, as I see the website www.conflicts.rem33.com is quite notable of not providing any references where data for all these maps came from. I am strongly inclined to move for removal of all his maps from wikipedia as unreliable. `' mikka 23:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Aivazosky, it's clear that you have failed to provide references either in support of credibility of Andrew Andersen, or in support of the argument that Kazakh uyezd was "administered by Armenia till 1931" (as your initial edit claimed) or till 1927 as you claim now yet again without references. Pending these explanations, the page will need to be unblocked, and I will request third party arbitration on this page if necessary. Atabek 15:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
http://www.turan.info/forum/archive/index.php/index.php?t-301.html (in Russian) , forum, with extensive quotations. `' mikka 00:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to thank User:Mikkalai for the reference to UVic stories about Andersen. Here is an interesting quotes at [ [17]]:
Sufficient to say that "Dr." Andersen, a sessional professor, is not only a POV, but is also dismissed for racism against Muslims. So it's difficult to imagine how his made-up maps or quotes could reflect the reality with fairness to Muslim people of Caucasus. Atabek 01:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Under the Russian Empire, the rayon was a north-eastern part of the Kazakh uyezd of the Elisavetpol guberniya. With the fall of the Russian Empire, dispute over the region arose between the Armenians (who made up 39% of the population) and the Azerbaijanis (who comprised 57%). [18] When the South Caucasus came under British occupation, Sir John Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus, decided that assigning the Erivan and Kars guberniyas to Democratic Republic of Armenia (DRA) and the Elisavetpol and Baku guberniyas to the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) would solve the region's outstanding disputes. However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians (who did not wish to give up their claims to Kazakh, Zangezur (today Syunik), and Nagorno-Karabakh) and Azerbaijanis (who found it unacceptable to give up their claims to Nakhichevan). As conflict broke out between the two groups, the British left the region in mid-1919.
After the British left and more fighting between Armenians and Azeris ensued, Bolshevik forces gained control of the region and annexed it to Bolshevist Russia. During the process of Sovietization, the borders of the Transcaucasian republics were redrawn several times. By 1927, the territory of the former Kazakh uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines. [1] The northern region, including the town of Qazakh itself was given to Azerbaijan while the southern portion, roughly corresponding to the present-day Armenian province Tavush was given to Armenia. During the Nagorno-Karabakh War, Armenia gained control/occupied Yukhari Askipara and Barkhudarli, the two exclaves of Qazakh. Besides this, neither country has disputed the boundary since.
Khoi khoi 22:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The statement doesn't reflect the historical facts and the dates, such as 1927, are arbitrary and from nowhere. WED Allen's article is quite good and makes it clear that Azerbaijan SSR included part of the Kazakh uezd. Also, other maps and historical accounts make clear that Dashnak Armenia was invaded by Bolsheviks from Kazakh, thus making it clear that it was not Armenian or part of Armenia. Also, undue weight it given to British, who were masters in the region for less than a year.
As such, the statement: "By 1927, the territory of the former Kazakh uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines" is not satisfactory and not based on facts. WED Allen published his article in May 1927 in a prestigious journal, after familiarizing himself and properly citing all other relevant publications -- something Mr. Andersen, for example, has not done at all. Obviously years are needed, especially in turbulent 1920s, for all official publications to appear, and he is especially proud to note that he familiarized himself with the official Soviet maps of 1925 (and another official July 1923 map), based on which his map in the article is drawn, on Soviet Constitution, on the British official documents, etc. I.e., he is a historian who writes about the past, not a journalist who writes about the present. Reflecting in 1927 about events of 1920-21 is very appropriate, as enough materials appear. Thus make no mistake, W.E.D. Allen wrote primarily about 1920-21, the time when Soviets were actually drawing most of the borders, particularly Qazakhs. Here's EXACTLY what he wrote in the section "Boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics":
"AZERBAIJAN S.S.R. (capital Baku) comprises the whole of the former Government of Baku and the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), with the exception of the District of Zangezur, and part of that of Kazakh, and includes the Zakatali Circuit of the former Government of Tiflis." (p. 436)
"ARMENIA S.S.R. (capital Erivan) includes the former Government of Erivan, with the exception of the Districs of Surmali (Turkish) and of Nakhichevan. It includes also, from the former Government of Elisavetpol (Ganja), the District of Zangezur, and part of the District of Kazakh, formed by the Region of Delijan. The Lori Region, formerly part of the government of Tiflis, is also included in Armenia." (p. 437).
Obviously, there were no major border changes in 1927, and indeed, none since summer of 1921 -- so his "boundaries of the Transcaucasian Republics" is clearly reflecting that.
Also, he makes an important statement about March 1922 meeting of 3 republics and wanting to join USSR, a request which was approved on December 1922. He then reminds the important treaties of Moscow and Kars, both signed in 1921, and then writes: "The frontiers of the Federation with the Russian S.F.S.R. and with Turkey may be considered in conjunction with the specific boundaries of the different Republics". In other words, by March 1922, and indeed, by October 1921 (Kars Treaty), all 3 republics had stable borders and joined USSR with such stable borders, and had stable outside borders too. The first phase of Soviet border drawing ended in 1921.
The historical background of the article should be expanded, including perhaps map from Great Soviet Encyclopedia, entitled "Struggle for Soviet power in Azerbaijan (October 1917-August 1918) [19] (where you can see Qazakh and how large the uezd was as opposed to the rayon, and Turkish army and Azerbaijani army marched through it in 1918), and from same source, "Azerbaijan and neighboring regions in the first half of 19th century", which shows that Qazakh was made part of Russian Empire in 1801, like Aghstafa region and Eastern Georgia. [20]. We can then cite Movses Dasxuranci (Moisey Kalankatuyski) and even Movses Khorenatsi about borders of Caucasian Albania extending to the Khnarakert castle. Anyhow, Qazakh town and region was part of ADR and was part of Azerbaijan SSR, with only time to be in a limbo or occupied from around April 1920 (fall of ADR) to 1921. That's it. In other periods this region was part of Azerbaijan, legally and physically. -- AdilBaguirov 22:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, saying that "nobody knows exactly in what year" is an overstatement -- WED Allen makes clear the borders of both Armenian SSR and Azerbaijani SSR. Since both were firmly part of USSR by January 1, 1921, and since the Moscow Treaty and Kars Treaty were concluded on March 1921 and October 1921 respectively, and NK was decided upon by July 1921, we can firmly state that 1921 was a year when most borderland questions were settled. Hence, both 1927 and 1920s would be misleading -- the city of Qazakh, and the Qazakh region were part of Caucasian Albania, and have joined Russian Empire as Muslim lands in 1801, then formed part of ADR, and after some changes in favor of Armenia in 1920-21, once again became part of Azerbaijan. Likewise, Ijevan and the western portion of the Qazakh uezd was part of Armenian SSR. -- AdilBaguirov 23:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
While I am preparing a compromise version of the article, here's some more from Armenian and other sources to remember, which proves once again that Qazakh town and region (eastern half of the former Qazakh uezd) was firmly part of Azerbaijan from 1918 until March/April 1920, and then again from middle of 1921 on.
As of mid-1918, even Armenian sources acknowledge that the whole territory of DDR was only consisting of Erivan guberniya: "от 4 июня 1918 г. территория Армении составляла всего 12 тыс. кв. км.... В таких условиях Армения была отрезана от Карабаха и не могла оказать ему действенную помошь." (English translation: "from 4 June 1918, territory of Armenia totaled only 12 thousand square kilometers... In such conditions, Armenia was cut off from Karabakh and could not provide it with tangible assistance." (Suren Zolyan, "Nagorno-Karabakh: Problem and Conflict." // "Chapter 2. Nagorno-Karabakh in years 1918-1920." Yerevan: Lingva, 2001, http://www.armenianhouse.org/zolyan/nf-ru/karabakh/2.html )
In fact, here's from an Armenian website that makes clear that there was no question of the entire former Kazakh uezd, but only part of it, that is today part of Armenia: "после чего 2 декабря полномочным представителем РСФСР в Армении т. Леграном было подписано соглашение с представителями дашнакской Армении об объявлении Армении независимой Социалистической Советской Республикой. По этому соглашению до созыва Съезда Советов Армении образуется временный Военно-революционный комитет, к которому переходит вся власть в Армении. Определяется территория ССРА: Эриванская губерния, часть Карсской области, Зангезурский уезд, часть Казахского уезда и те части Тифлисской губернии, которые находились в обладании Армении до 28 сентября 1920 г." [21]
Translation into English: "after which on 2 December [1920] by the plenipotentiary representative of RSFSR [Soviet Russia] in Armenia, comrade Legran there was an agreement signed with the representaive of Dashnak Armenia about announcing Armenia as the independent Soviet Socialist Republic [SSRA]. According to this agreement, until the call up of the Assembly of Soviet [Parliament] of Armenia, a temporary Military-revolutionary committee is formed, to which the entire power in Armenia is being passed. The territory of SSRA is being defined: Erivan guberniya, part of Kars oblast, Zangezur uezd, part of Kazakh uezd and those part of Tiflis guberniya, which were in possession of Armenia before 28 September 1920." [22]
So as you see, it clearly mentions "part of Kazakh uezd", that is the western half of the former Kazakh uezd. Also, see the map from J.H.M. Cornwall. "The Russo-Turkish Boundary and the Territory of Nakhchivan",The Geographical Journal, Vol. 61, No. 6. (Jun., 1923), pp. 446, which also shows Qazakh as part of Azerbaijan. -- AdilBaguirov 00:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Compromise version:
According to medieval chroniclers (e.g., Movses Khorenatsi, Moisey Kalankatuyski), in ancient and medieval times, the region was part of Caucasian Albania. In 1801, the region was made part of the Russian Empire. Under the Russian Empire, the region was a north-eastern part of the Kazakh (Qazakh) uyezd of the Elisavetpol guberniya. With the fall of the Russian Empire, the region, where Azerbaijanis made up 57% and Armenians 39% of the population [23], became part of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR). Throughout their independent existence in 1918-1920, Armenia and Azerbaijan were in dispute over Qazakh region. When the South Caucasus came under British occupation in December 1918, Sir John Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus, decided that affirming the Erivan and Kars guberniyas as part of Democratic Republic of Armenia (DRA) and the Elisavetpol and Baku guberniyas as part of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) would solve the region's outstanding disputes. However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians and Azerbaijanis, and soon the British withdrew from the region in August 1919.
After the British left and more fighting between Armenians and Azerbaijanis ensued, Bolshevik Soviet forces occupied Azerbaijan in April 1920 and Armenia in November 1920. During the process of Sovietization, the borders of the Transcaucasian republics were redrawn several times. By the end of 1921, the territory of the former Kazakh (Qazakh) uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines. [1] The northeastern region, including the town of Qazakh itself was left in Azerbaijan, while the southwestern portion, roughly corresponding to the present-day Armenian province Tavush, was left to Armenia. During the Nagorno-Karabakh War, Armenia gained control/occupied Yukhari Askipara and Barkhudarli, the two exclaves of Qazakh region of Azerbaijan. Besides this, neither country has disputed the boundary since.
-- AdilBaguirov 02:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I have tried hard to make my version unbiased and NPOV, but user Aivazovsky seems to be interested only in what he has been doing best since
August 2006 -- stalling and stonewalling the process! He has taken us all hostage since last August, where even on this small article, he
has been constantly stonewalling and damaging the process of presenting a normal, NPOV version of the article, that has been for far too
long filled with ridiculous, indeed, outrageous errors and Armenian POV. Enough is enough, have the decency to stop these tricks, they are
counterproductive and will not result in me "forgetting" about this page and just going away.
Now, let's review the so-called "problem" that Aivazovsky claims are with the compromise version: 1) the reference to Movses Khorenatsi and Moisey Kalankatuyski, the two medieval chroniclers, Armenian and Caucasian Albanian respectively, who testify that Qazakh region was part of Caucasian Albania.
2) and the statement that Qazakh became part of ADR in 1918, and remained part of Azerbaijan SSR (way before 1931, or 1927, or any other made-up dates of Aivazovsky's mind)
OK, let's tackle both of those made-up "problems" one-by-one (although it has been done already before, most of the evidence will not be new, all "thanks" to Aivazovsky's "strategy" to just ignoring facts and pretending he doesn't see them -- just like he didn't see the made-up 1931 date and many other things already discussed at length above).
Point (1) Moses Khorenatsi, who wrote about the borders of ancient Albania: [first Albanian ruler, Arran] "inherited the Albanian plain with its looking towards mountains side, beginning from the river of Yeraskh [Araxes] till the fortress called Khnarakert..." Here's the fuller excerpt from Book 2, Chapter 8 of Movses Khorenatsi, "History of Armenia", translation from ancient Armenian by G.Sarkisyan, Hayastan Publishing House: Yerevan, 1990, in Russian [24]: "Вслед за тем он учреждает наместничество в великом и, славном, многолюдном северо-восточном крае, вдоль большой реки по названию Кур 47, что прорезает обширную равнину, (назначив) Арана 48, мужа именитого, первого во всех делах мудрости и разума. Узнай, однако, и о людях Сисака,— ибо это великое и именитое племя мы забыли упомянуть в Первой книге,— которые унаследовали Алванскую равнину, включая ее обращенную к горам сторону, от реки Ерасх до крепости, называемой Хнаракерт 49; страна же получила название Алвании из-за его кроткого нрава, ибо его называли «алу» 50. И вот, один из его потомков, упомянутый именитый и доблестный Драя, и был назначен парфянином Валаршаком наместником-десятитысячником. Говорят, что племя утийцев и княжества гардманцев, цавдейцев и гаргарцев происходят от его отпрысков 51."
An additional confirmation of Khnarakert as the border castle can be found in later Armenian historian's as well, such as Hovaness Draskhanakertci's "History of Armenia", Chapter XXXI [25]. Same proof is available in Book I, Chapter IV of Moisey Kalankatuyski's "History of Caucasian Albanians" (published in Yerevan, 1984, translation into Russian by Sh.V.Smbatyan) [26]: “Здесь начинается [история] княжества страны Алуанк. От начала сотворения человеческого рода до царя армянского Валаршака о проживающих близ высоких гор Кавказа мы не можем ничего достоверного рассказать слушателям. При установлении порядка у жителей северных он созвал [представителей] пришлых диких племен, живущих в северной равнине и у подножия Кавказских гор, в долинах и ущельях к югу, до того места, где начинается равнина, и приказал им прекратить разбой и вероломство, платить покорно царские подати. Затем [царь] назначил им вождей и правителей, во главе которых по приказу Валаршака был поставлен некто из рода Сисака, одного из потомков Иафета, по имени Аран, который унаследовал долины и горы страны Алуанк, от реки Ерасх до крепости hЫнаракерт [Ðݳñ³Ï»ñï]. Из-за его [Арана] мягкого нрава страна эта была названа Алуанк, ибо из-за мягкого нрава звали его Алу. Многие храбрые и знатные из потомков этого Арана, говорят, были назначены Валаршаком Партевом наместниками и тысячниками. От его [Арана] сына, произошли племена [½³·ë] Утийского, Гардманского, Цавдейского, Гаргарского княжеств. До сих пор указание о родословной."
So, then where is this Khnarakert castle? The answer we can find, for example, in Anania Shirakatsi's "Ashkharatsuyts" (Armenian Geography) or in the abovementioned Hovaness Draskhanakertci's "History of Armenia" book published in Armenia (and residing on Armenian server): [27]
"Хунаракерт (а также Хнаракерт) — древняя крепость и город с епископской резиденцией, расположенный там, где смыкаются границы Армении, Алванка и Грузии, недалеко от устья р. Храм, близ современной Кызкала. (Армения по «Ашхарацуйц»-у, с. 63; Крепости Армении, с. 485—486)."
Translation: "Khunarakert (also Khnarakert) -- ancient castle and city with episcopal residency, located there, where borders of Armenia, Albania and Georgia come together, not far from the mouth of Khram river, near modern Qizqala (Armenia according to "Ashkharatsuyts", p. 63; Castles of Armenia, pp. 485-486)".
OK, then where is this Qizqala village? It is the modern village Akhchkaberd of the former Ijevan rayon of Armenia (currently Tavush marz, near the mouth of the Akstafa river. That is Armenians changed the Azerbaijani name of Qizqala to Akhchkaberd.
For proof about geography (to save you time from looking on the maps, hoping to prove me wrong at least once), again from Hovaness Draskhanakertci's book published in Armenia (and residing on Armenian server):
[28] "140. Кайеан (также Кайан, Кайен) — крепость, была построена в начале Х в. Впервые в армянской книжности была упомянута в Истории Иов. Драсх. Как полагает Р. Матевосян, крепость Кайеан можно отождествить с Ахчкабердом (Кызкала) в совр. Иджеван,ском р-не Арм. ССР, которая занимала стратегически очень выгодное положение на одном из ответвлений хребта Ховк и доминировала над долиной р. Акстев. (См.: Матевосян. Р. Ташир-Дзорагет (X—начало XII вв.). Ер., 1982, с. 21—38, на арм. яз.)."
Translating the applicable part: "Akhchkaberd (Qizqala) in modern Ijevan rayon of Armenian SSR, which occupied a very advantageous location from the strategic point of view, on one of the branches of the Khovk ridge and dominated over the valley of the river Akstev [Armenian for Akstafa].
Hence, we prove that all medieval chroniclers unanimously agreed that Khnarakert was part of Caucasian Albania, and that Khnarakert actually is located not only in the former Kazakh uezd, but in Ijevan/Tavush region of Armenia -- that is not only all of the modern Qazakh rayon/region was part of Caucasian Albania, but in fact most of the former Qazakh uezd was.
Now let's move on to Point (2). How can one object to Qazakh being part of ADR, when:
a) As of mid-1918, even Armenian sources acknowledge that the whole territory of DDR was only consisting of Erivan guberniya, per the June 4, 1918 Treaty with Turkey: "от 4 июня 1918 г. территория Армении составляла всего 12 тыс. кв. км.... В таких условиях Армения была отрезана от Карабаха и не могла оказать ему действенную помошь." (English translation: "from 4 June 1918, territory of Armenia totaled only 12 thousand square kilometers... In such conditions, Armenia was cut off from Karabakh and could not provide it with tangible assistance." (Suren Zolyan, "Nagorno-Karabakh: Problem and Conflict." // "Chapter 2. Nagorno-Karabakh in years 1918-1920." Yerevan: Lingva, 2001, http://www.armenianhouse.org/zolyan/nf-ru/karabakh/2.html )
b) In fact, here's from an Armenian website that makes clear that there was no question of the entire former Kazakh uezd, but only part of it, that is today part of Armenia: "после чего 2 декабря полномочным представителем РСФСР в Армении т. Леграном было подписано соглашение с представителями дашнакской Армении об объявлении Армении независимой Социалистической Советской Республикой. По этому соглашению до созыва Съезда Советов Армении образуется временный Военно-революционный комитет, к которому переходит вся власть в Армении. Определяется территория ССРА: Эриванская губерния, часть Карсской области, Зангезурский уезд, часть Казахского уезда и те части Тифлисской губернии, которые находились в обладании Армении до 28 сентября 1920 г." [29] Translation into English: "after which on 2 December [1920] by the plenipotentiary representative of RSFSR [Soviet Russia] in Armenia, comrade Legran there was an agreement signed with the representaive of Dashnak Armenia about announcing Armenia as the independent Soviet Socialist Republic [SSRA]. According to this agreement, until the call up of the Assembly of Soviet [Parliament] of Armenia, a temporary Military-revolutionary committee is formed, to which the entire power in Armenia is being passed. The territory of SSRA is being defined: Erivan guberniya, part of Kars oblast, Zangezur uezd, part of Kazakh uezd and those part of Tiflis guberniya, which were in possession of Armenia before 28 September 1920." [30]
c) So as you see, it clearly mentions "part of Kazakh uezd", that is the western half of the former Kazakh uezd. Also, see the map from J.H.M. Cornwall. "The Russo-Turkish Boundary and the Territory of Nakhchivan",The Geographical Journal, Vol. 61, No. 6. (Jun., 1923), pp. 446, which also shows Qazakh as part of Azerbaijan.
d) Here's another quote from yet another Armenian source, the Armenica encyclopedia: [31], Chapter: ОКТЯБРЬСКАЯ РЕВОЛЮЦИЯ И УСТАНОВЛЕНИЕ СОВЕТСКОЙ ВЛАСТИ В АРМЕНИИ
"Еще в июне 1920 г. завершилось организационное оформление Коммунистической партии Армении, которая возглавила революционные выступления трудящихся против правительства дашнаков. В сентябре 1920 г. Кавказское бюро ЦК РКП (б) утвердило состав Центрального Комитета Коммунистической партии Армении. В середине ноября 1920 г. в Баку был образован Военно-Революционный комитет Армении—Саркис Касьян (председатель), Аскаяаз Мравян, Саак Тер-Габриелян, Александр Бекзадян и др. В конце ноября Военно-Революционный Комитет Армении перебрался в Казах—на границу с Арменией. Здесь же находился Армянский полк, который был сформирован из повстанцев, отступивших на территорию Советского Азербайджана после поражения Майского восстания. Ранним утром 29 ноября 1920 г. Революционный Комитет Армении вместе с армянским повстанческим отрядом пересек границу и вступил в Иджеван. Пограничные части дашнакской армии не только не оказали сопротивления, но и перешли на сторону революционных сил. Трудящиеся Иджеванского района восторженно встретили повстанцев, в Иджеване была установлена Советская власть. В тот же день Революционный Комитет Армении опубликовал в Иджеване свою декларацию о провозглашении Армении Советской Социалистической Республикой.
Translation of bold parts, my CAPS: "In the middle of November 1920, in Baku, the Military-Revolutionary Committee of Armenia was established -- Sarkis KAsyan (chairman), Askayaz Mravyan, Saak Ter-Gabriyelyan, Alexander Bekzadyan, and others. In the end of November, the Military-Revolutionary Committee of Armenia relocated to Qazakh - ON THE BORDER WITH Armenia. Here the Armenian regiment, which was formed from insurgents, who RETREATED TO THE TERRITORY OF Soviet Azerbaijan after the defeat of May insurgency, was located. Early in the morning of 29 November 1920, the Revolutionary Committee of Armenia together with Armenian insurgents force CROSSED THE BORDER and came into Ijevan. BORDER troops of Dashnak army not only didn't resist, but switched to the side of revolutionary forces."
e) This is also confirmed by none other than the Dashnak Prime Minister, Hovhanes Kachaznuni in his book: "The Turks had already occupied Alexandropol. In the meantime the Armenian Bolsheviks at the head of the Red troops entered Itchevan and Dilijan".
(source: H.Kachaznuni. "Dashnaktsutsyun has nothing to do anymore". Originally published by Mhitaryan Publishing House, Vienna, 1923, in Armenian languaguage, translated into English, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, re-published in 2006, p. 52)
f) We should also note that both ADR and Georgia were the FIRST one's to be de facto recognized by the League of Nations on January 12, 1920 because they had more legitimacy and more stable borders -- Armenia was recognized LATER, and despite existing some 7 months longer than ADR, never achieved de jure recognition (which ADR would have had it been independent in November 1920). Here's from a Georgian historian Avtandil Menteshashvili [www.georgianweb.com/history/rus/avtandil/chapter2.html]:
"Министр иностранных дел Англии Дж. Керзон подчеркивал тогда: «Вопрос о признании Грузии связан и с признанием других закавказских республик, что в свою очередь связано с решением всего русского вопроса и, хоть и в меньшей степени, с условиями мирного договора с Турцией» (*73). В меморандуме МИД Великобритании от 24 декабря 1919 г. давались рекомендации своему правительству «продолжать воздерживаться от признания независимости Грузии и Азербайджана до тех пор, пока не определится окончательно положение генерала Деникина» (*74). 12 января 1920 г., когда стал ясен крах деникинцев, Верховный совет Антанты (за исключением США) признал де-факто независимость Грузии и Азербайджана, а впоследствии и Армении. Эти три республики по плану Антанты должны были служить буферами между РСФСР и другими странами Востока. 10 февраля 1920 г. главы делегаций Грузии и Азербайджана в Париже направили послу США во Франции пиьсмо. В нем говорилось: «Две закавказские республики – Грузия и Азербайджан получили как независимые государства признание «де-факто» Верховным советом союзнических держав в Париже, то есть Францией, Великобританией и Италией, а затем и Японией. Это признание «де-факто», безусловно, официальное и определенное, до сих пор не было подтверждено державой, которая в глазах народов закавказских республик является воплощением великих принципов свободы и справедливости, – Соединенными Штатами Америки. Американские миссии за последнее время множество раз посещали эти республики, получив всемерную информацию. Федеральному правительству хорошо известно желание закавказских народов наладить прочные связи с великой американской демократией». В заключение выражалось сожалиение по поводу такого непризнания со стороны США независимых Грузии и Азербайджана (*75).
So, here once again, we see that Armenia, from its foundation in May 1918, was a weak and small state, that could only dream and claim regions such as Qazakh, but not have any control over it. The only time Armenia received full control over Qazakh was temporarily, after ethnic cleansing and massacres of Azerbaijanis, from the end of March 1920 for a few months -- by September 1920, when it declared war on Turkey (and was quickly defeated by Kazim Karabekir Pasha by November 1920) and by which time Soviets had a fairly strong control over the entire Azerbaijan as far as Naxcivan (do you need proof of that?), Armenia must have relinquished its occupation. So here, even if we are generous, Armenia occupied all of Qazakh for about 5-6 months in 1920, that's it. By November 1920 -- when even Georgia occupied Lori region of Armenia (and Aivazovsky admitted that) -- and signed a humiliating Alexandropol Treaty with Turkey, Armenia was in no position to occupy anyone or anything. Hence, as all the evidence, most of it from ARMENIAN sources, proves, Qazakh was Azerbaijan's BEFORE 1920, and AFTER 1920.
Aivazovsky, if even after this definitive asnwer to your stonewalling you still do not agree to my compromise version, then you should just remove yourself from all future debates. -- AdilBaguirov 07:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
How much evidences should be presented to move ahead over obstacle created by Aivazovsky who presented only one source - Andersen, which is now obvious quite questionable. Adil have tens of sources.--
Dacy69 14:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is it important to have the Armenian version of the city's name in the introduction? Parishan 05:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Per our discussion, which was so nicely archived by Aivazovsky, I've modified the article to better reflect tonns of evidence I have presented. I am not quoting all the sources I have presented, but if needed to, can.
According to medieval chroniclers (e.g., Movses Khorenatsi [1], Hovaness Draskhanakertci, [2] and Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) [3]), in ancient and medieval times, the region was part of Caucasian Albania. In 1801, the region was made part of the Russian Empire. Under the Russian Empire, the region was a northeastern part of the Kazakh (Qazakh) uyezd of the Elisavetpol Guberniya. With the fall of the Russian Empire, the region, where Azerbaijanis made up 57% and Armenians 39% of the population Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary. "Kazakh". St. Petersburg, 1890-1907, became part of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR). Throughout their independent existence in 1918-1920, Armenia and Azerbaijan were in dispute over Qazakh region. When the South Caucasus came under British occupation in December 1918, Sir John Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus, decided that affirming the Erivan Governorate and the Kars Oblast to Democratic Republic of Armenia (DRA) and the Elisavetpol Governorate and Baku Governorate to the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) would solve the region's outstanding disputes. However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians and Azerbaijanis, and soon the British withdrew from the region in August 1919.
After the British evacuation and more fighting between Armenians and Azerbaijanis ensued, the Soviet Eleventh Army led by Grigoriy Ordzhonikidze occupied Azerbaijan on April 28, 1920 and Armenia by December 1, 1920. During the process of Sovietization, the borders of the Transcaucasian republics were redrawn several times. By the end of 1921, the territory of the former Kazakh (Qazakh) uyezd was divided between the Armenian and Azerbaijani republics along ethnic and sectarian lines. [4] The northeastern region, including the town of Qazakh itself was left in Azerbaijan, while the southwestern portion, roughly corresponding to the present-day Armenian province Tavush, was left to Armenia. [5] During the Nagorno-Karabakh War, Armenia gained control/occupied Yukhari Askipara and Barkhudarli, the two exclaves of Qazakh region of Azerbaijan. Besides this, neither country has disputed the boundary since.
-- adil 06:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's a new interesting quote I recently found, that is of ethnographic importance: When describing the events leading to the Turkmanchay Treaty, a contemporary military historian notes the following ethnographic detail: "Abbas Mirza's route lay through the country of the great tribe of the Casaks, which is extremely strong and thickly wooded." He further notes that: "These have no connection with the Russian Cossacks. They are descended from men of the Kirgis Casaks, left by Genghis Khan, and are Mahomedans of the Soonnie [Sunni Muslims] sect. They are frequently called Kara Papaks, from wearing black sheep-skin caps." [6] -- adil 06:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Aivazovsky, you are right that I didn't provide neutral sources -- instead, I stuck mostly to Armenian sources. :) I definitely want to mention the ancient history, and if anyone wants to debate the facts I've presented -- let them go ahead, they don't have any chance against primary sources -- and I provided not one, not two, but three primary sources, of which two are Armenian. I will start inserting more info about the Azerbaijani khanates and dynasties that ruled it too, such as Atabeks, Safavids, Afshars, Qajars, if needed, too, as well as Seljuks, Shaddadids, Mongols and Arabs. For now I don't to avoid debates. About the 1921 see the extensive facts presented -- in any case, by 1922 USSR formation, Azerbaijan entered with Qazakh, and as facts show, Qazakh was part of ADR without any Armenian occupation or claims at least until the beginning of 1919. You simply don't have any sources that dispute the fact that by USSR's and Transcaucasian Fed formation, Qazakh was not part of Azerbaijan. -- adil 16:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Aside from other disputes, can anyone please explain why the following quote was removed:
When describing the events leading to the Turkmanchay Treaty, a contemporary military historian notes the following ethnographic detail: "Abbas Mirza's route lay through the country of the great tribe of the Casaks, which is extremely strong and thickly wooded." He further notes that: "These have no connection with the Russian Cossacks. They are descended from men of the Kirgis Casaks, left by Genghis Khan, and are Mahomedans of the Soonnie [Sunni Muslims] sect. They are frequently called Kara Papaks, from wearing black sheep-skin caps."
ref: Lt-Gen. William Monteith, Kars and Erzeroum: With the Campaigns of Prince Paskiewitch, in 1828 and 1829; and an Account of the conquests of Russia beyond the Caucasus, from the time of Peter the Great to the Treaty of Turcoman Chie and Adrianople, London: Longman, 1856, p. 60
In my opinion, it is verifiable info and should remain in the article. Grandmaster 05:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Adil's edit is also well-referenced. Khoikhoi who reverted it - would be good to explain this motion. What is wrong with those sources?-- Dacy69 05:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, thus far no one put forward reasonable objection. Let's wait for some time. I believe that edit in Wikipedia should be removed if there is strong and well-explained objection produced. But, taking into account the long debate on this page, we can wait for certain time.-- Dacy69 06:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Khoikhoi, with due respect, it is not understandable your eager here. Aivazovsky, Euaptor or someone else failed to make reasanoble opposition to last edit and references brought by Adil but you are still reverting. Euaptor just said that it is not serious which should be further explained. The same with Aivazovsky. Removal of text should be accompanied by explanation either.-- Dacy69 15:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, it was me who approached you on that and later I have seen to what it was turned into. About edit - I don't see well grounded explanation why we should not write thoroughly Qazakh history or use ancient sources about Qazakh. It obviously might not fit someone opinion. Again - total failure to object in essence to citations and references. Blind removal of 6 references and at at the same time - how it comes - it is ok to leave your reference? maybe we can resolve this issue through mediation? -- Dacy69 15:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
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