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I found what I thought were 9 non-trivial sources for an article about a company in an AfD disucssion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wrightsoft using the EBSCO database from my public library. They are from various trade journal from within that companies industry. Several other editors say that because they are trade journals they do not count as reliable sources. I could not find anything in WP:RS, WP:N, WP:CORP that specify that trade journals as not reliable sources. I realize that many trivial trivial articles can appear in trade journal. Has there been any consensus on trade journals as reliable sources? Here are the sources from the AfD discussion.
There is currently a discussion at Talk:7 World Trade Center concerning whether it is appropriate to describe a source as "peer reviewed". Any additional comments would be welcome. Hut 8.5 20:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I am aware another journal that calls itself peer-reviewed, but, in practice, accepts papers that the reviewers reject. Is there any documentation regarding your journal with regard to its impact factor, the proportion of submissions it rejects, or comments in higher ranking journals that documents problems with the Bentham Open Civil Engineering Journal?
My previous comment on this page here didn't get any comments so I'm hoping someone will take a look at this. Putting it simply,
Per WP:SPS I believe that it is not. It has been wrong in the past, although it was accurate for Miss Universe 2008 (of course we didn't know that until the official list came out). I've put notes on certain pages asking people not to source from there and it lead to this riot. I'd appreciate comments on whether it should be considered a reliable source or not. Thanks. PageantUpdater talk • contribs 20:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Is the site http://host17.hrwebservices.net/~atrl/trlarchive/no.html reliable? This is being used in an article I wrote that is currently cooked in FAC. -- Efe ( talk) 02:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
is this review allowed? http://www.amazon.com/Iowa-Slipknot/dp/B00005A46T. -- Efe ( talk) 00:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Seems OK to me. And I would consider user Amazon reviews reliable evidence for the fact that a certain sentiment exists, as well; if a book has 100 reviews with an average of 2 stars, that's pretty good evidence that it wasn't liked very much...but perhaps I'm radical in this belief. ImpIn | ( t - c) 00:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
You might want to check WP:ALBUM, I believe it prohibits using Amazon as a source for anything. indopug ( talk) 01:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Following a question here, I would like to ask if Human Rights Watch can be considered a reliable source on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Note that on the talk page in question, HRW is not used used as a source for a given statement, but a HRW report is mentioned.
Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 12.06.2008 14:34
I see nothing to suggest that Human Rights Watch is not an RS. Please do not let this devolve into a discussion of what is or is not accurately labeled as "anti-Israeli", because that is off topic. Despite the blanket accusation by pro-Israeli (and pro-Chinese, etc.) groups that they are biased I see no criticism that addresses reliability. As of now it is impossible not to side with those who believe it is an RS. Please only bring forth evidence that suggests it is NOT if you have it and keep the more general Israeli Palestine conflict banter in more appropriate forums. Regards. PelleSmith ( talk) 18:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
"Garlasco told Klifi during the meeting that he was impressed with the IDF's system of checks and balances concerning its artillery fire in the Gaza Strip and unlike Hamas which specifically targeted civilians in its rocket attacks, the Israelis, he said, invested a great amount of resources and efforts not to harm innocent civilians. "Lucy Mair - head of the HRW's Jerusalem office - said Klifi's team had conducted a thorough and professional investigation of the incident and made 'a good assessment' when ruling out the possibility that an errant IDF shell had killed the seven Palestinians on the Gaza beach." All of the sources and further explanation is [6].
I suggest this thread be closed and archived; it verges on frivolous. HRW is not only acceptable as a source; it is – with Amnesty International – the best possible source on human-rights violations, period. They've been criticized as "biased" by every country they've ever published reports on, which is pretty much the whole world; this, as others have pointed out, tends rather to enhance their credibility than to diminish it.-- G-Dett ( talk) 15:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if it's just me, but I'm having a hard time getting up to speed on WP:RSN issues; I often run down this page and realize that I have no idea what the answer is going to be until I see the experts weigh in. I'm wondering if that's going to hamper my ability to be a good reviewer at WP:GAN.
Anyway, my specific question is about http://www.jobfutures.ca/en, which includes the disclaimer: "Materials on this Web site were produced and/or compiled by the Department for the purpose of providing Canadians with direct access to information about the programs and services offered by the Government of Canada. ... Disclaimer: The material herein was prepared under the direction of the department. Although every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of its contents, the Government of Canada assumes no responsibility for the accuracy or reliability of the contents of this product." You'll see a list of organizations that they relied on for their information at the given link above. Reliable source? If not, where do I find this kind of employment information? (The article I'm reviewing is Mechanical engineering). - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 19:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Specifically, this one:
http://www.alicedreger.com/home.html
She's a professor in the
Department of Medical Humanities and Bioethics at Northwester University, has written books published by the Harvard University Press and the University Publishing Group, has recently received a
Guggenheim Fellowship award, has multiple publications in peer-reviewed journals, and is a columnist for the
Hasting's Center.
Any input would be appreciated about whether her blog regarding her field of expertise meets WP:RS.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk) 15:11, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
A recent discussion about renaming a historical geographical entity - Trakai Voivodeship - (not a single source has been found to support this name) - to a referenced Troki Voivodeship has generated a stalemate on talk and an edit war in the article (since a Lithuanian webpage is being added over and over to support the Trakai name version, despite the fact that it does not contain the English "Trakai Voivodeship"). Do note that the entity which was never named with Trakai (the historical name in official language of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - Polish - was województwo trockie). Since Trakai is a Lithuanian name (the city of Trakai is currently in Lithuania), and Troki is a Polish name variant, Lithuanian editors prefer Trakai despite no English source supporting this name, Polish support Polish and input of neutral editors is needed to break the stalemate.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
World Socialist Web Site is a site run by the International Committee of the Fourth International. There are nearly 700 links, many of them as sources for commentary in articles on living individuals. I found it because a lengthy diatribe was linked as a source for the uncontroversial fact that Ken Livingstone keeps newts, probably the single best-known fact about his private life. Is this actually a reliable source? Guy ( Help!) 11:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely a website like this is unreliable. The name itself screams bias. We disreguard conservative websites, some of which seem at first glance to be professional, because they have a right wing bias, and certianly we should not give marxist/socialist websites a double standard and call them reliable when they are just as bias in the opposite direction. YahelGuhan ( talk) 20:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Should we accept the web-site JAZ.com as RS to policy?
It is apparently published from within the Satmar community of c.120,000 Orthodox Jews in Williamsburg and Brooklyn, NY. They have a number of convincing contributors, I have been able to find Reuven Waxman, Jacob Dershowitz, Leizer Fishberg, Hersh Lowenthal making detailed contributions, more or less speaking for the the "organisation". A brief letter at Rense.com written by "M. Katz" on behalf of JAZ is apparently signed by Rabbi Joseph Dershowitz, Rabbi Meyer Weberman, Rabbi Menashe Filipe, Rabbi Joseph Schmilovitz, Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, Rabbi Jeremiah Teitelbaum and Mr. Russell Waxman. (At least one and possibly two self-identified members of their community editing here have stated it speaks for them all, though this is not confirmed).
Despite JAZ.com being anti-Zionist (on religious grounds) they were sharply critical of seven Neturei Karta members who went to Ahmandinejad's "Holocaust Conference". The differences between the two groups seems to depend on whether it would be right to wind up Israel immediately, whatever danger this presented to Israelis - JAZ does not want Israel abandoned like this. It is possible that NK could be dubbed "extreme" on these grounds, but I see nothing to indicate that JAZ has the same problem. (The NK has a similar web-site, JewsNotZionists.org - examining this, I see no reason to doubt their reliability on factual matters either).
JAZ claim to be speaking on behalf of c. 150,000 anti-Zionist and around 1 million non-Zionist Jews, and it looks as if their numbers add up. Depending on how you define it, this makes them a substantial proportion of practicing followers of Judaism in the world. They have been accused of being unreliable, extreme and publishing "hate-speech" - no evidence for this has ever been produced. (Three sources describe them as "fringe", whatever that means - it's not the same as WP:FRINGE). The most contentious single article from JAZ is a transcript of an interview by a 1929 Hebron survivor, Rabbi Baruch Kaplan (also published by the NK here). We are led to believe the original is at the Otzer Emunah Tape Library of Monsey, (845)426-6812 (I've not checked this myself). Kaplan went on to be a principal (headmaster?) of the Beis Yaakov Girls School in Brooklyn, in the 1980s he was adamant that this famous massacre was caused by something that Zionists were doing in Hebron. This version is at least partly confirmed by interviews and a film made of all (?) of the remaining survivors in 1999. If there is more than simple prejudice to stop us treating these people as reliable, I'm not seeing it. I think their carefully collected evidence deserves its place in articles. PR talk 19:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
From the limited feedback at this noticeboard, there seems nothing to indicate that JewsAgainstZionism are anything other than what they claim to be, a collaborative venture speaking for a major community of devout and anti-Zionist Jews. To what extent they speak for the other devout non-Zionist Jews (they claim there to be 1 million of these in existence) is not clear. Their POV is obvious, but their honesty and historical care is not in question and they pass all the tests at WP:RS. PR talk 20:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
(<-)JAZ is an internet-vocal fringe group that should not be used on anything outside their own articles or articles about their members. -- Avi ( talk) 06:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm Hersh Lowenthal, one of the editors at jewsagainstzionism.com. It looks like no one in this discussion doubts the demographic facts about the Satmar group: about 120,000 people. See the WP article on Satmar. The dispute seems to be about whether our group truly represents Satmar, or is a fringe group similar to or identical with Neturei Karta. The confusion is compounded by the fact that NK calls itself "Jews United Against Zionism", a name similar to ours.
With that in mind, I would like to direct the attention of anyone who understands Yiddish to the articles published on December 13, 2007 by Der Yid and Der Blatt, the two main Satmar newspapers, heartily endorsing our group Natruna a.k.a. True Torah Jews Against Zionism, and describing the annual dinner at which 1500 people attended and a few major Satmar rabbis spoke. These articles are available on our Hebrew site http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/deryid kinus.htm and http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/derblatt kinus.htm. Anyone who thinks we fabricated these articles can just call up those newspapers and check it with them.
As to the much-disputed Kaplan interview, it's true that the English version published by us and NK is a free translation, and we said so openly. The original Yiddish transcript is available at http://www.natrina.org/gedolim/kaplanyiddish.htm and a word-by-word Hebrew translation is at http://natrina.org/gedolim/kaplan.htm. Natsmith ( talk) 16:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, those links I gave to Der Yid and Der Blatt came out wrong. Here are the correct links: http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/deryid%20kinus.htm. http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/derblatt%20kinus.htm. Natsmith ( talk) 17:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
All of the discussion above about the reliability of the material on the site is pretty much irrelevant. As has been explained to PR multiple times, jewsagainstzionism.com is an anonymous personal website. The owner is unknown, and the "About us" page leads to a Post Office Box. Per Wikipedia:V#Self-published_sources, "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable." That's really all there is to say on the matter, and it's conclusive. Jayjg (talk) 01:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, just though I'd ask what people thought of this wiki being used as a reliable source. It is basically a repository of Subject-specific common knowledge so does that mean it is acceptable for referencing work about Go?-- ZincBelief ( talk) 19:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdenting) Even though it is likely that most of the information in Sensei's Library is accurate, it is still an open wiki and thus less subject to editorial control than a reliable source should be. Besides, if the information is common knowledge, whether general or subject-specific, then it should be easy to find a proper reliable source for it rather than using an unreliable source. If it's information that doesn't even need a reference, then using an unreliable source isn't going to improve the article.
To use an analogy, suppose that I needed to include in an article a statement that as of 2008, George W. Bush is the president of the United States. Well, that is common knowledge, so I could probably just leave it as a bare statement with no citation and it's unlikely anyone would make a citation needed demand. But suppose I decided that I should include a reference. So I call up my dad and say, "Dad, I need a reference for a Wikipedia article. Who's the current president of the United States?" My dad answers, "George W. Bush, of course." So I thank him and put the following reference into the article: "Personal interview with User:Metropolitan90's father, June 16, 2008." Now, my father is a well-informed person and his information about who is the current president of the United States is accurate. Yet citing "As of 2008, George W. Bush is the president of the United States" to a conversation with my father would make Wikipedia look silly, or at least it would make me look silly, because there are sources out there on this topic which are not only much more reliable but are also easy to find. By the same token, we shouldn't cite to open wikis if we can find more reliable sources, even for common knowledge. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate more people to look into a very complicated RS situation. There is a heated AfD debate about the List of groups referred to as cults, where on the one hand, PelleSmith is arguing that scholars in the sociology of religion consider popular media to cover the issue very poorly, see here for some background, and he is thus opposed to the current list as it indiscriminately collects references in popular media. On the other hand, Will Beback and Milo are arguing that if media coverage is bad, it's not our duty to right great wrongs; our job is merely to adequately reflect what reliable sources say. (Some of the debate is on the AfD talk page.)
The issue is further complicated by the fact that the word "cult" can mean many things, so we have all possible things from the Baha'i Faith to Wikipedia included there, allegedly people try to add mainstream religions in order to get the list deleted. This issue, however, is a red herring, as the more fundamental debate is the one I outlined above. Normally, when academia and popular coverage of an issue diverge, e.g. evolution, we side quite emphatically with academic sources. This is why I find this issue quite hard: is the list also siding with popular sources rather than heeding the criticism of academic sources?
Also, I don't know anything about the sociology of religion, so it may well be that my above description is wrong and I don't claim the above summary is neutral. I will write a note on the AfD to ask people to check if they want to amend this summary. In any case, it would be nice if people could give their informed opinion, so we don't get just keep/delete voting there on this very difficult issue. Thanks, Merzul ( talk) 15:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
...the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. .... Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications.
I would suggest that many of the sources that are currently being used as "media" sources are not high quality in the least. It truly seems that people have grabbed whatever is available to source as many groups as they can. In line with that, while the list claims to have distinct sections for "scholarship" and "the media" many of the sources for the media section are oddly references to books (scholarly and otherwise). Many others are news reports hosted, sometimes as "summaries" on websites like RickRoss.com, the X-Family wiki, Steven Hassan's website freedomofmind.org, etc. There are also a couple of originals from skeptictank.org. Also, used over and over, are static summaries about "cult" topics from washingtonpost.com, and religioustolerance.org. To this end, I had to remove sourcing to the Encarta online encyclopedia entry for "cult" from several listings. Another multiple usage source here is a SF Chronicle obituary of Margaret T. Singer hosted on the website of a "cult books" publisher. There is at least one use of Readers Digest as a source. It is my view that above and beyond the issues outlined above the current sourcing is also atrocious. PelleSmith ( talk) 12:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone tell if publications by David Horowitz Freedom Center qualify as reliable sources. There is a related discussion here. Note that one of the sides, User:Kallahan, filed a complaint to Arbcomm [12] instead of asking here. Biophys ( talk) 19:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
So, we have:
I don't see any evidence that Frontpagemag is any less polemical and opinionated than Horowitz's other sites. What should be done, here? Guy ( Help!) 14:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
unreliable FrontPageMag and this "Freedom Center" are both highly partisan, but the unreliability doesn't stem from that. If you search the archives, you'll find how FrontPageMag has a habit of making stuff up. I wouldn't be surprised if the center did the same. Ngchen ( talk) 20:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Would the Daily Mail be considered a reliable source for Romanian crime in Europe, given that it's purported to have an anti-immigration editorial bias? I haven't been able to find an unimpeachable source to support that bias. The one in the Daily Mail article points to [15]. New Statesman is considered to be a left-wing political magazine.
The only guidance I've found so far is at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 2#Daily Mail? (UK), which implies it should be fine for non-controversial topics, but this is definitely controversial. TransUtopian ( talk) 22:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Are blogs from The Nation (thenation.com), buzzflash.com or huffingtonpost.com reliable sources for controversial materical in the Sean Hannity BLP? I've reverted some controversial material included with these sources. The blogger at The Nation is Max Blumenthal who's bio there says he's a Media Matters Fellow. Thanks. -- PTR ( talk) 18:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Alex von Tunzelmann's Indian Summer: The Secret history of the end of an empire a reliable source on British policies in the British raj? Bless sins ( talk) 03:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Sources such as [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] are being used to prove that Russia is a current superpower. They keep on getting re-inserted into the page often cited as Good references. This has gotten the page protected twice now because of edit warring and it is still not resolved. Any assistance would be great. -- UKPhoenix79 ( talk) 06:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
It would be useful to be able to cite http://cometdaily.com, however it seems unlikely that it could be a reliable source as it's essentially a collection of blogs....the issue is further clouded by the fact that many of the people contributing to the Comet (programming) article are newly arrived wikipedians from cometdaily.com. So I've come here for clarification on the matter...the site does appear to have some sort of editor review to keep overly adverty/incorrect posts out. Any help would be...helpful Restepc ( talk) 16:10, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Quite a bit has gone on since June 15th regarding this (the article appeared on reddit.com and subsequently received much editing traffic). The source in contention, cometdaily.com houses postings from many community developers that are involved in Comet development. For example; The O'Reilly Media Open source-con [28] features speaker Michael Carter [29] a regular cometdaily contributer who "shares his expertise in bi-weekly articles for the technical publication Comet Daily. It appears, concerns specifically of conflict of interest and Jacobolus have spilled over into whether or not this source is reliable. While it's unfortunate that there are COI problems as a result of Jacobolus' contributions, it should be viewed as a separate issue. A quick google search will show that in the Comet development blogs refer to and link to cometdaily frequently and can be a source of information directly from comet developers AtaruMoroboshi ( talk) 19:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
An editor is claiming here that the fact that an interview given to the BBC and available on their website but that is only available to residents of the UK for copyright reasons is Unaccessable = unverifieble = invalid. That goes for subscription links too ' ( I had mentioned subscription links as being valid links ) . I know the information may be available from other sources as in this case but with the increase in geo-blocking of sites does this mean we will not be allowed to cite such sites in future if they are the only source . Garda40 ( talk) 15:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
At the Harry Trott FAC discussion, an inquiry mas made about the reliability of this source, a biography written by a person who is the caretaker of this site, an unofficial site dedicated to the Brighton Cemetery in Melbourne, Australia.
The source is used to support the cause of death, place of death, and place of burial of the subject. The source cites its own sources: the Australian Dictionary of Biography article on Trott (this source is used elsewhere in the Wikipedia article) and an article in the (now defunct) Argus newspaper, both of which I would consider more than reliable. I was concerned about how much faith one can place in such an "unofficial" site, but the site seems to me to be more than a "fan site" and has made an effort to acknowledge its sources. Given the reasonably non-controversial nature of the claims supported by the source, is this source suitable for use in a Featured Article. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 23:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
There has been an ongoing discussion about inclusion of an image ( Portal:Discrimination/Selected picture/5) in Portal:Discrimination. I would like some opinion as to whether the sources listed in the image caption are reliable enough that we can label the image as an example of discrimination. Apologies in advance for anyone who reads the whole discussion, it's been going on for a while. Kevin ( talk) 01:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
At Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories#Particular_attribution_POV A number of changes are being discussed that involve NPOV and it needs more heads to look into the arguments and come up with good consensus. Ward20 ( talk) 00:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source to cover events relating to China and the group Falun Gong? According to [34] [35] [36] it was founded by Falun Gong practitioners and has links with the organization. A US congressional report lists the Epoch Times as a Falun Gong-linked source [37]. Even Li Hongzhi, the founder of Falun Gong, has expressed links between Epoch Times and Falun Gong practitioners [38].
My problem is, if an event received large coverage by Epoch Times, and its associates NTDTV and Sound of Hope, but little from mainstream media, can it be considered significant coverage?-- PCPP ( talk) 04:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't talking about that. Quit following me.-- PCPP ( talk) 15:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
WP:NOTE: Works produced by the subject, or those with a strong connection to them, are unlikely to be strong evidence of interest by the world at large.-- PCPP ( talk) 15:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Before it was stubified, a new editor was editing Sukyo Mahikari using "Holy Words: Goseigen by Yoshikazu Okada ISBN 0971486301 / 9780971486300 / 0-9714863-0-1 Publisher Bishop of North American Region of Sukyo Mahikari Language". He says "it is available only to members" but that he can use it because he has a copy and it might be possible to buy it in a used book store -- "f you can find a used book I'm sure you can verify the statements". Or maybe a library but he admits not many might carry it. I think this means that the book is to all intents and purposes unverifiable by Wikipedia readers and can't be used, however valuable a source it might be for the article. Although 'demonstrably findable' doesn't seem explicit policy (yet), I think it is implicit in the policy and this book fails it. But I would like comment on this. Thanks. -- Doug Weller ( talk) 09:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate Itsmejudith's efforts to verify that this in fact is a legitimate source, despite DougWeller's persistent efforts to discredit my postings. Verbatim statements of Okada's teachings *should* be allowed from the Goseigen as they are verifiable--despite the other editors feelings about other content within my contributions. Showing Sukyo Mahikari's true statements in their teachings is factual information, and for people who are thinking of joining this cult, at least they will be able to read the cult's true beliefs instead of believing the recruiting brochures which lure unsuspecting members under false pretenses. Honestyisbestpolicy ( talk) 19:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I restored a paragraph here to the article Fatimah that two editors, User:Itaqallah and User:MezzoMezzo, seem determined to keep off Wikipedia, most probably y tbecause of the nature of the section as one of the main Shi'a- Sunni differences.
The section is supposed the represent the point of view of both Sunnis and Shias, and the paragraph starts with "There are two distinct views on the manner of her death between the Shias and Sunnis. Shias maintain[...]" The Shi'a point of view was both poorly represented and poorly sourced. User:Itaqallah, then User:MezzoMezzo kept reverting the edit contending that al-islam.org and Sistani's al-shia.com are polemical, unreliable and represent the Shi'a point of view (I later pointed out, referring to the beginning of the paragraph, that this is precisely what they're supposed to do), despite the fact that both are the main Shia websites on the internet, with the latter being run by the foremost authority in Shi'a Islam and the former being cited by the Columbia University here (as a main reference on Islam), the British Academy here, the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade here, the George Mason University here, Intute here, and is archived by the Library of Congress.
Again, the section is supposed the represent the Shi'a point of view so even if the websites were polemical, which they are not, they represent the Shi'a point of view which should be properly represented in the article. I personally think this just a case of POV-pushing by a couple of editors who want what's written in the article to comply with their beliefs. Enforcing Neutrality ( talk) 08:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I just wasted hours of my time searching for the books online and locating the passages to find that I didn't have to and every source al-islam.org referred to is correct. Now please don't undermine my efforts and stop wasting anymore of my time. Enforcing Neutrality ( talk) 14:16, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Itaqallah, I want to get this over with. I can see you speak Arabic, so you'll have no problem reading the sources. Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari's Tarikh is downloadable here. The text is located in the fourth word document. It reads:حدثنا ابن حميد ، قال : حدثنا جرير ، عن مغيرة ، عن زياد بن كليب ، قال : أتى عمر بن الخطاب منزل علي وفيه طلحة والزبير ورجال من المهاجرين ، فقال : والله .لأحرقن عليكم أو لنخرجن إلى البيعة . فخرج عليه الزبير مصلتا بالسيف ، فعثر فسقط السيف من يده ، فوثبوا عليه فأخذوه In english: Ibn Hamid told us: Jarir told us, from Mughirah, from Ziad ibn Kulaib: Umar ibn al Khattab came to the house of Ali and in it were Talha and Zubair and men of the Muhajirin. He said: By God I will burn it on you or you come out and swear allegiance. Zubair came out with his sword, he tripped and the sword fell from his hand, so they jumped on him and took him.
Ibn Abed Rabboh's al-Iqd ul-fareed is read here. It reads:فأما عليّ والعباس والزبير فقعدوا في بيت فاطمة حتى بَعث إليهم أبو بكر عمرَ ابن الخطاب ليُخرِجهم من بيت فاطمة وقال له: إِن أبوا فقاتِلْهم .فأقبل بقَبس من نار على أن يُضرم عليهم الدار فلقيته فاطمةُ فقالت: يا بن الخطاب أجئت لتُحرق دارنا قال: نعم أو تدخلوا فيمادخلتْ فيه الأمة In english As for Ali, Abbas and Zubair, they stayed in the house of Fatima until Abu Bakr sent Umar to get them out of Fatima's house and told him: if they refuse, fight them. He took a torch to burn the house and Fatima met him and told him: are you here to burn our house? He said: yes, or you enter what the Ummah has entered (i.e swear allegiance).
Al-Shahrastani's Al-Milal wa al-Nihal is read here. It reads: فقال: إن عمر ضرب بطن فاطمة يوم البيعة حتى ألقت الجنين من بطنها وكان يصيح: أحرقوا دارها بمن فيها وما كان في الدار غير علي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين In english: And he said: Umar kicked Fatima's stomach on the day of allegiance until she she miscarried and he yelled: Burn her house and whoever is in it except Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn.
Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani's Lisan al Mizan is read here. It reads on page 268: أن عمر رفس فاطمة حتى أسقطت بمحسن. In English: Umar kicked Fatima until she miscarried Muhsin.
Al-Baladhuri's Genealogies of the Nobles is read here. It reads: أن أبا بكر أرسل إلى عليّ يريد البيعة، فلم يبايع. فجاء عمر، ومعه قبس فتلقته فاطمةُ على الباب، فقالت فاطمة: يا بن الخطاب، أتراك محرّقاً علي بابي؟ قال: نعم، وذلك أقوى فيما جاء به أبوك. In english: Abu Bakr sent for Ali demanding allegiance, but he didn't give gim allegiance. Umar came with a torch and was met by Fatima at the door, she told him: Ibn al-Khattab, are you here at my door to burn the house(?)? He said: Yes, this is stronger than what your father has ever done.
Al-Safadi's al-Wafi bil-Wafiyyat is accessible here. It reads in the sixth volume, page 15: إنّ عمر ضرب بطن فاطمة (عليها السلام) يوم البيعة حتّى ألقت المحسن من بطنها In english: Umar kicked Fatima's stomach on the day of allegiance until she miscarried Muhsin.
Yusuf ibn Abd-al-Barr's al-Isti'ab is downloadable here and Ibn al-Athir's the Complete History is downloadable here. I didn't locate the texts because I already wasted too much time working on the others. Hopefully you wouldn't mind working on these to prove me wrong.
As for Ibn Qutaybah's Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa and al-Mas'udi's Ithbat ul-Wasiyyah, I couldn't find them on the internet so I will to a bookstore check if they're correct, but a Salafi quotes Mas'udi in his book accessible here as having said in his book Ithbat ul-Wasiyya: فهجموا عليه [ علي عليه السلام ] وأحرقوا بابه ، واستخرجوه كرها وضغطوا سيدة النساء بالباب حتى أسقطت محسنا or they attacked him (Ali), burned his door and took him out by force and pressed [Fatima] against the door until she miscarried Muhsin and calls him a Rafidi immediately after quoting him, so I doubt the source is misquoted.
Finally, I hope this can put an end to this dispute and I hope we could be on good terms after. Regards, Enforcing Neutrality ( talk) 22:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
The fact is that Shia and Sunnis have very different narrations of certain events and the distinction should be clearly specified. Technically speaking, Itaqallah is correct in removing material that are not sufficiently sourced, but I doubt that he is ignorant about the factuality of some of the sentences he is removing [43]. -- Be happy!! ( talk) 09:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a WP:REDFLAG article, claiming that all ancient history took place in the Middle Ages and that no history goes back beyond 800 AD. So "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" should apply. However, despite some of Fomenko's publications being in English, there are a number of references to works by Fomenko with the references entirely in Russian, so I have no idea what is being referenced and have no way of knowing what the actual text says or where the claim is vague, what the specifics are. It's my opinion what when the claim would so clearlyy "significantly alter mainstream assumptions" that Fomenko's claims should all be referenced by English language translations of his works. Doug Weller ( talk) 17:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I wish to inquire about the potential usage of citations from babylonjewry.org.il and in particular nahardea, the organization's magazine. babylonjewry is the most prominent NGO dealing with the history and heritage of iraqi jews, containing several of the most comprehensive archives on related subjects. furthermore, its research branch is staffed by several academic figures of expertise on the subject (such as prof. shmuel moreh and dr. yehuda zvi) and publishes its own academic journal as well. the problem is that the magazine is not peer reviewed (while the academic journal is) and that most of the material is in hebrew.
now, the questions:
MiS-Saath ( talk) 19:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Is United World Chart remain reliable despite being deleted? How about aCharts.us? -- Efe ( talk) 02:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Joshua project a reliable source to indicate population figures as it seemed to have been used in some articles. It is usful because some of the data is not available from national census figures as these ethnic groups are not recognized by some national governments for various reasons. Thanks Taprobanus ( talk) 21:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
What is the best source for the religious beliefs of a particular group (WHAT they believe, not the validity of those beliefs)? Is a website produced by the group an acceptable source to be used as a reference? Rev107 ( talk) 03:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Can I use commercial sites such as amazon.com to source a page like The Simpsons DVDs? -- Maitch ( talk) 12:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I just came across Manga Murder and am wondering if it really has reliable sources. At first glance, the answer appears to be a resounding "YES", however, of the 9 references this article lists, 7 refer right back to the same article, which I belive is a violation of WP:EL, 1 (ref link # 4) appears to be ok, it links to the animenewsnetwork.com, 1 final one ( link # 7) appears to link to a Flemmish magazine, with no translation given, however a still from the manga mentioned appears in this article. Without a translation it's hard to tell. I believe a translation is required according to policy. If I pare down the article to only the cited reference I know to be good (# 4) that leaves only one reference and one heck of a stubby article. I figured I should get some more eyes on this before I even attempt something that BOLD :), so..check the article and see if I'm on target or not. Thanks Just say "NO" to WP:FUR 19:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Just say "NO" to WP:FUR 13:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
There are several sources and external links on the above page about which I am dubious. These include:
Do the rest of you think that these pages meet the qualifications for RS and External links or not? John Carter ( talk) 17:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Anime Jump a reliable source? They review stuff and interview people. - Malkinann ( talk) 02:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Dr. Robert C. Fuller of Bradley University considered a reliable source on American religion topics? Are there any cautions in using his work for citations? Low Sea ( talk) 18:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
At the List of Mensans, I've provided what I believe are three very solid reliable sources: an article from the online version of the Sydney Morning Herald [44], a reprint of an Orlando Sentinel article (from the American Mensa website, noted there are a reprint and credited) [45], and an entertainment section article from CBS News online [46]. These sources all state that Jodie Foster is a member of Mensa. However, another editor insists that another source overrides all of these. This is a (mostly) Italian-language video from RAI, in which Foster apparently states that she isn't a member of Mensa [47]. The interview is almost entirely in Italian; Foster does speak in English for much of it, however this is mixed way down and an Italian language overdub obscures it. The video is extremely long and there is no specific indication of exactly when she makes this statement. So, are the first three references considered reliable and do they satisfy WP:V? And does the RAI source also satisfy the requirement and trump the first three? Nobody of Consequence ( talk) 03:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This is insane. Here we have the subject herself clearly saying she is not a member of Mensa (at 4m 23s) and we can't even use that because it is supposedly inaudible or in a foreign language? She's speaking in English and you can clearly hear what she says. A user has even provided a transcription on the Jodie Foster Talk page. ☆ CieloEstrellado 14:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
We're having a lot of issues with reliable sources at Talk:Taekwondo. I'd like to get an opinion on some I feel aren't reliable and later will ask about some I feel are reliable.
In Uk Heo: I've been arguing that this [48] isn't a reliable source as no one has been able to identify whether it refers to an article, book, essay, etc., and if the paragraph given there is an abstract, review, summary, etc. Currently only what appears in that web link is being used as the source--not the underlying document. See Talk:Taekwondo#Footnote_.237_.28In_Uk_Heo.29 for more discussion.
A Study on Shaping of the Taekwondo, In Uk Heo
David Cook: I've also argued that Cook, Doug (2006), "Chapter 3: The Formative Years of Taekwondo", Traditional Taekwondo: Core Techniques, History and Philosophy. Boston: YMAA Publication Center, p. 19. ISBN 978-1594390661 [49], is not a reliable source on TKD history as it's a photo book of TKD techniques by a TKD instructor without apparent academic training. See Talk:Taekwondo#Traditional_Taekwondo:_Core_Techniques.2C_History_and_Philosophy for more links, excerpts, and discussion.
There are also several TKD web sites being used as TKD history sources despitethe fact that they conflict with independent sources (see the most recent Talk archive there), and I hope to discuss those later. Any help would be appreciated. JJL ( talk) 15:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Vedda org a reliable source for articles about Vedda people ?. It is run by Living Heritage Trust. Associated people are
I've been arguing at Talk:Taekwondo that the following are highly reliable sources, at least in comparison to other available sources which in comparison lack independence and peer-review, and that these should be given relatively greater weight. I'd appreciate feedback on that. See Talk:Taekwondo/Archive_4#Sources_on_Japanese_origins and other parts of that page for further discussion and details.
Capener: Steven D. Capener, Ph.D. (formerly a professor at Ewha Womans University, Korea), "Problems in the Identity and Philosophy of T'aegwondo and Their Historical Causes"; in the (peer-reviewed, ISI--indexed) Korea Journal (Winter 1995 [50]) [51], also available here [52]. The article was written while he was completing his doctoral studies.
Burdick: Dakin Burdick, M.A., "People & Events of Taekwondo's Formative Years," volume 6, number 1 (1997) [53], in the respected, peer-reviewed Journal of Asian Martial Arts. The article contains a great deal of additional information. For more on JAMA see here [54], including the Library Journal recommendation of it. Expanded version of the article here [55].
Dohrenwend: Robert Dohrenwend, Ph.D., "The Truth about Taekwondo (Parts 1,2)", Dragon Times #22-23 [56] (continued in Classical Fighting Arts #1,2 [57]); excerpt here [58]. Dragon Times and its replacement Classical Fighting Arts are well-respected, serious magazines with academically-trained editorial boards. Classical Fighting Arts is endorsed by the The Library Journal [59].
Henning: Stanley Henning, M.A., "Traditional Korean Martial Arts", Journal of Asian Martial Arts Vol. 9, No. 1, (2000): On Prof. Henning's credentials and the regard in which his work is held see [60], [61], [62].
JJL ( talk) 16:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
According to WP:RS says,
According to WP:V says,
Point is... "Articles should not be based primarily on extremist sources." "fringe theories should only be used as sources about themselves" Manacpowers ( talk) 17:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
My Answer is Here. Here is not suitable place for discuss this topic. Manacpowers ( talk) 17:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Last, These sources are already used as source in main Article. so, it is worthless discuss at here.
this discussion is no need. JJL is a only one person who make this complain. Manacpowers ( talk) 11:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your message. You haven't said why you think that the sources the other user wishes to use are "fringe". A source can have a very strong point of view and not be fringe at all. The sources he mentioned appeared to be academic in nature - is that not your impression? Copying this exchange to the RS noticeboard. Itsmejudith ( talk) 11:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
According to WP:RS says,
I already proved that various counterpart academic source. by various sources and public trusted encyclopedia, His edit of original research by his favorites sources are identified as a depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view,conspiracy theories, no scientific data. and you must not forget, My edits supported by the various academic sources, too. Manacpowers ( talk) 14:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
If you think it can be main stream view, Please bring me ANY public trusted encyclopedia source. what public trusted encyclopedia say TKD is karate? In fact, There is no encyclopedia say TKD is karate. This is a common sense. (We don't need Karate affiliated sources & no scientific data.) I can prove that my point of view is a mainstream. Manacpowers ( talk) 15:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
According to another mediator Omnedon said [63], "JJL seem now to be arguing simply about what sources should be allowed to be cited in the article; but it already includes the essence of your position as one possibility. However, not everyone agrees with you on that, and not all sources support your position; so it is not stated as incontrovertible fact, and other positions are also described." Manacpowers ( talk) 15:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know if the following site: [64] is a reliable source. Thank you. JayJ47 ( talk) 09:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Would you say that this site, http://www.tvtonight.com.au/, is a reliable one? I know it is a blog, but note that it is "Australia's Leading TV Blog", (lol) and it does seem to be quite reliable. I am using it to source most of the information here: Underbelly (TV series), and this issue is stopping it from becoming a GA. Please help! Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 15:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that a source that can't be verified by current editors should be removed or perhaps placed on the talk page with a request for verification.
I'm posting this to request clarification. This is a general question, not about a particular instance.
What's the recommended way to handle references that are difficult or impossible to verify?
This can come about in various ways. Examples:
When a source like those is added by a current editor, the editor can provide a quote on the talk page or other assurance that it's been verified. If the editor is trusted, that resolves the concern.
But what about situations where the un-verifiable source was added long ago by an editor who is not currently active? Should we be using sources that we are not able to confirm? -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 18:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm involved in a discussion at Talk:Boing_Boing#Violet_Blue_Controversy. The issue is the already notable and wikified Violet Blue seems to have been expunged from the records at Boing Boing. While this initially kicked up a flurry of posts in the blogosphere about the matter, the issue was picked up at latimes.com (albeit in their Opinion / Blog section) and was even on their front page most of yesterday.
The other editors are putting up the rather perplexing argument that sources are only notable if they are "in print". Please see the last comment by BenBurch at the Talk:Page, where he says "Yeago, respectfully, I didn't make the "in print" rule, Norquist didn't make the "in print" rule. That rule was made here long ago and underpins this whole project." I haven't read anything asserting this in my 5 years here and I'm surprised that its made so casually from someone who's been here for 4 years, BenBurch.
At any rate, does http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/webscout/2008/06/violet-blue-scr.html do the job of presenting this issue as notable enough and worthy of mention in the related articles? Yeago ( talk) 20:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I've come across an editor who has continually added material from Urban Review, which appears to me to be a self-published, albeit clean, blog (although I don't know if this particular editor is the person who posts there). The editor has posted links to pages there that contain musical artists' videos, poster reviews and copied items from other webpages such as US Magazine. Is there any situation in which this blog would be an acceptable source that I don't know about? I've removed the references to these pages and posted two notes on the editor's page about the videos, and now one about the other sources. Am I correct to assume this is not an acceptable source? Wildhartlivie ( talk) 09:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
What makes the Blogger reputable, by nature of a blog, the blogger will want as many people as possible to read it. so he will make every effort to at least appear reputable, yet as you mentioned, it is still an opinion. so is an opinion actually a source at all? Agungsatu ( talk) 14:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
An editor on an article on which I'm working has identified a web video of a news report as a possible source. However, it seems to be a pirate copy (or at least there is no indication that it's an authorised copy), it's in a language I don't speak - although the uploader has added a translation as subtitles - and there's no indication of when it was broadcast. This obviously means I can't verify for myself whether the translation is accurate; it's clearly been edited by the uploader, given the addition of subtitles; and we couldn't link to it anyway because of its likely copyvio status. Does anyone think this is likely to be a reliable source? My instinct says no but I thought I would ask for some independent views. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
It also might be of assistance if you could at least tell us what language it might be. This would prevent editors from wasting time if they do not speak the language and would prompt multi-lingual editors that are proficient to examine it. Agungsatu ( talk) 14:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
There is currently a dispute at soy milk on whether or not a controversial claim made in a commercial advertisement is encyclopedic material. There is currently a RfC under progress concerning this issue among others. Please help resolve this dispute. Thank you. Cydevil38 ( talk) 00:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I believe that it makes an substantial controversy makes an impact on those who are accustom to making purchases of a particular product. and therefore I believe it should be included. while soy milk may not determine the course of nations, it is related to the health movement and important enough to a large group of people. Agungsatu ( talk) 15:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I am posting this to determine if a site that ranks professionals who have guru status by "he criteria for judging the TOP 30 focused on: Originality of ideas, practicality of ideas, presentation style, international outlook, impact of ideas, quality of publications and writings, dispersion of publications and writings, public opinion, guru factor."
there are 2 things that are wrong with the site. one, it has google ads, and 2 part of the ranking is done by the public.
the question is: since most of the gurus ranked on the site are also on wikipedia, should there guru awards be a part of their biographies?
there are 2 categories, leadership and communication
please refer to http://www.leadershipgurus.net and http://communicationgurus.net
Hotmarcie ( talk) 12:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
My boss was part of this survey last year, and he is pretty credible as the MD on Nestle Malaysia. Personally I find the site ok, not a great design but seems to have credible content specifically with the gurus list and my personal encounter with the original research. I also believe that would be the main draw. The rest seems like filler.
on another note, I cannot help but notice that Ckatz is not following the Wiki-guidelines of "assume good intentions", and has already labled this a "spamming" - perhaps a bit more objectivity would be in order. Agungsatu ( talk) 15:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
This [66] is the website of an amateur Egyptologist. I really don't know if it qualifies as a reliable source or not. In trying to decide I ran into INTUTE [67] "is a free online service providing you with access to the very best Web resources for education and research. The service is created by a network of UK universities and partners. Subject specialists select and evaluate the websites in our database and write high quality descriptions of the resources." Now that looks really useful as a guide. But, for this site, it says [68]"Absolute Egyptology is a site that is focussed on ancient Egyptian history. It contains sections with articles about the different dynasties and kings of ancient Egypt. The articles are fairly extensive and illustrated with images and drawings. There is a virtual tour of the mastaba at Beit Khallaf in Middle Egypt. Although the site is hosted by a commercial company that designs websites it is obviously a labour of love by the Swedish amateur Egyptologist Ottar Vendel. The site is easy to navigate and pleasant to look at and although the articles have no references the information is balanced and to the point. This site is a good introduction to Egyptology and especially ancient Egyptian history for students and anyone interested in the subject." It sounds like a nice site to me, but maybe not really good enough for Wikipedia. I'd like other people's opinions. Thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 12:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
this is obviously someone who has done their research, and done it well. The site seem to be filled with very useful and interesting information and I personally think it is a very credible source.
Agungsatu (
talk) 15:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Is the Quackwatch website a reliable source for the numbers of advisers to the organisation? More eyes on sourcing generally on this article and helping to call a stop to edit warring would be very welcome. Itsmejudith ( talk) 16:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
This site seems to be used as a reference in many articles. This quote "Read this site at your own risk. I make a lot of mistakes. I have no proof-reader and there are plenty of pages, like this one, which have been around since the 1990s and may no longer apply or be correct. I'm just one guy. No mater how stupid something may be, if I don't catch it, it gets out there anyway and stays wrong for years until someone points it out. I can't track everything; I've written thousand of pages and write a few more every day." from the about page suggests it is not reliable. I am inclined to remove all of these links when used as factual references. Kevin ( talk) 02:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
A quote about aerial bombing, circling the internet and attributed to East German author Wolfgang Schreyer, is used as source in several articles like Bombing of Frampol, Area bombardment. Its recent addition to Strategic bombing during World War II led to editwarring. Is this author, and especially "Augen am Himmel: Eine Piratenchronik" (aka "Eyes from the sky"), a reliable source? Can the quote be sourced in any way at all? -- Matthead Discuß 09:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
This query is about whether the works of Wolfgang Schreyer are considered a Reliable source for Wikipedia or not. So far, I haven't seen any evidence that they are. -- Matthead Discuß 16:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to get an article ( No Such Thing as Vampires) to FA status, but one user said that I had an unreliable ref. The site, Moonlight Information Archive, is a fan site for the show Moonlight, so it is not considered to be reliable, but what I am sourcing is an interview. The interview is with the series creator, and is one of the best interviews out there. I think that an interview is an interview, and even though the interview was with an unreliable website, the series creator still said those words. Thanks for your help - Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 07:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Is The Futon Critic considered to be reliable? Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 16:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if you could have a look at the article Sheylanli. I believe that the sources for that article are all unreliable and there is a very persistance user who keeps insisting that the sources remain and that no tags requesting better sources be added to the article. To summarize the problem I see with the sources in the article:
http://azerbaijanfoundation.org/cgi-bin/e-cms/vis/vis.pl?s=001&p=0114&n=000535&prev=yes is being used to show that the village is a Kurdish village. My concern is that it is an Azerbaijani propaganda site.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/07/eu http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=324193&apc_state=henh http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm#822 Are being used to show that the Armenian military controls the region when http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm#822 clearly says that it's the local ethnic Armenians in the region
http://www.worldcitydb.com/lachinskiy_in_azerbaijan_state.html is being used to show the distance from Azerbaijan's captal Baku. No where on that site does it state the distance from Azerbaijan's captal. It does not to be a seem reliable to me.
http://www.maplandia.com/azerbaijan/azerbaydzhan-territor/seylanli/ is being used to show the geographic coordinates. It does not seem to be a reliable source to me.
Sharafnameh, Moscow, 1967, page 370, in Russian http://www.pan-iranism.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1218 are being used to give the history of the village. It is a web forum.
'A. Alekberov “Esseys on the study of Kurdish culture” in Russian, Baku 1936, page 40-62' is being used to give a history of the village. This does not seem a reliable source to me.
http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/anti-terror/ater21eng.htm http://www.bvahan.com/ArmenianWay/AW/Eng/provinces/kashatagh/sheylani.html Are being used to give the history and some historical monuments of the village. They don't seem like reliable sources to me. The first seems like an Azerbaijani propaganda site.
Please advise. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 00:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, to simplify matters, let's discuss one source at a time.
To ask a more abstract question about original images. How could we verify that this picture isn't just taken in my back yard? Merzul ( talk) 17:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps, you guys could wait until someone looks into this. Unfortunately, this disputes seems a bit too complicated for me; hopefully someone will look into this soon enough. Until then, stay cool... meanwhile I'll check my back yard to make sure those pictures weren't taken there. ;) Merzul ( talk) 22:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that the article get temporarily stubbed and that we discuss here each source for inclusion one at a time before adding it to the article. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 00:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Meowy, you are right the village existed since it was destroyed during the NK war. I have also read Karapetian's book and there the author introduces new names, Armenian version of all names of villages in
Lachin. The author approximates the name of village Katos to be something in Armenian language like Gutuz. However, according to kurdish historian
Shamil Askerov and many other Azerbaijani scholars who did research on the names of kurdish villages in Azerbaijan (published in Azerbaijani), the name Katos doesn't have any relation with what is said to be Gutuz. The name Katos in
Kurmanji means Land of potatoes. The story behind is that in the late 18th century people from
Sheylanli realized that there was a land close by
Sheylanli (about 15 km to the southeast of the village) which was very productive for potatoes and a couple of families decided to settle in that place which later named as Katos -- Land of potatoes. That was the starting point of the history of Katos referred as historical Gutuz by Armenians.
Regarding the Armenian monasteries in Azerbaijan, before
Islam in
Caucasian Albania, where is now modern Azerbaijan, the religion was
Christianity. Since later the religion in Azerbaijan was changed to Islam, now Christian Armenians claim everything that has sign of Christianity, historically to be belong them which is obviously not true as one you mentioned above ...Armenian monastery near Katos....
And the last part of your comment, Lachin, and so villages in Lachin, was Azerbaijani region and occupied by Armenian. Above you are saying "under Azeri occupation" which is obviously propaganda according to the followings:
“ | Karabakh Armenian forces broke through to Armenia at the Azerbaijani town of Lachin, creating the so-called Lachin corridor. At Lachin, roughly ten kilometers separates Armenia from Karabakh. -- Human Rights Watch. Azerbaijan: Seven Years of Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. 1994. ISBN:1564321428. The biggest wave of IDPs came in 1993 as Armenian forces from Nagorno-Karabakh, with support from the Republic of Armenia, forced out the Azeri civilian population successively from seven provinces ( Lachin, Kelbajar, Agdam, Fizuli, Jibrail, Qubatli and Zangelan) adjacent to Nagorno-Karabakh. -- Roberta Cohen, Francis Mading Deng. The Forsaken People: Case Studies of the Internally Displaced. 1998. ISBN:0815715145. |
” |
Gülməmməd Talk 01:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I have added dubious and fact tags to all the unreliably sourced passages in this article. I'll give it some time for the author(s) to properly source these passages, after which they will be removed if they are not properly sourced. No need to keep beating a dead horse, either there are reliable sources for the passages or there aren't. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
No consensus on an AFD means that there is no consensus to keep or delete. It doesn't mean that the sources in the article are OK. Seriously instead of reverting back in unreliably sourced information, why don't you get images that are sourced and use some of the sources that are reliable? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 04:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
In a related article please see Sheylan (not to be confused with Sheylanli). user:Gulmammad has just reinserted a blog as a source. I'm really finding all of this incredibly frustrating. So much time and energy needs to be expended just to ensure that reliable sources need to be used. It is very frustrating that admins will tar both sides in this dispute with the same brush regardless of whether one side is tendentiously adding unreliable sources and the other is trying to build an encyclopedia with reliable sources. The way that this should be dealt with is that readdition of unreliable sources should be treated like vandalism. Sorry for the rant but I'm finding this really frustrating. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I completely agree with Seraphimblade but since you are one who is unsatisfied with sources, please first point out clearly why do you think sources are not reliable for a given fact. Then I'll respond. Gülməmməd Talk 04:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
To Answer Seraphims question above. I did a google search for both Sheylanli and for Seylanli (possibly the Azerbaijani spelling of the village if the village even exists) and could not find a single reliable source. I found some maplandia.com type user created maps I also found blogs and the advocacy/propaganda sites that Gulmammad has been using. These are not reliable sources because they don't undergo any type of verification or editorial review and might also be considered extremist sources. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 04:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Why do we need a source that the village is occupied by Armenia? It is pretty obvious. CIA World Factbook says: Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan; over 800,000 mostly ethnic Azerbaijanis were driven from the occupied lands and Armenia; [72] Lachin district of Azerbaijan, where the village is located, is one of those regions occupied by Armenia. I don't see here any issue that is worth lengthy discussion, the fact is pretty obvious. -- Grandmaster ( talk) 08:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Like I mentioned above, I think the best way is for Sheylanli and Sheylan to be stubbed and for the sources to be discussed in this noticeboard before adding them. I'm sure that a discussion of notability would also be prudent but right now the article contains only unreliable sources and I presume we don't want that in wikipedia so they should be removed. I also believe the article should be edit protected after stubbing and that new material be added using the edit protected request template (I forget the official name of it). Thoughts? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I still am having a difficult time following this discussion, as, I imagine, are many here. Might it be possible for both of you to restrict your comments to content matters, such as sources and article material, and refrain from commenting on one another? Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Since this discussion with the author of the articles is obviously a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT with regard to reliable sources. I ask the admins following this thread to act on my proposal to stub and protect the article and we can add later expand the article by discussing sources on this noticeboard. If anyone has any other suggestions please post them. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated Sheylanli tribe (né Sheylan) for deletion. If you wish to participate in the deletion debate please post here. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 16:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Could someone confirm whether these sources are reliable and whether they say what they claim to say in the article:
OK Gulmammad, you've shown that works with these titles exist. Now who can verify that the above claims are made in these works? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 19:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
I found what I thought were 9 non-trivial sources for an article about a company in an AfD disucssion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wrightsoft using the EBSCO database from my public library. They are from various trade journal from within that companies industry. Several other editors say that because they are trade journals they do not count as reliable sources. I could not find anything in WP:RS, WP:N, WP:CORP that specify that trade journals as not reliable sources. I realize that many trivial trivial articles can appear in trade journal. Has there been any consensus on trade journals as reliable sources? Here are the sources from the AfD discussion.
There is currently a discussion at Talk:7 World Trade Center concerning whether it is appropriate to describe a source as "peer reviewed". Any additional comments would be welcome. Hut 8.5 20:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I am aware another journal that calls itself peer-reviewed, but, in practice, accepts papers that the reviewers reject. Is there any documentation regarding your journal with regard to its impact factor, the proportion of submissions it rejects, or comments in higher ranking journals that documents problems with the Bentham Open Civil Engineering Journal?
My previous comment on this page here didn't get any comments so I'm hoping someone will take a look at this. Putting it simply,
Per WP:SPS I believe that it is not. It has been wrong in the past, although it was accurate for Miss Universe 2008 (of course we didn't know that until the official list came out). I've put notes on certain pages asking people not to source from there and it lead to this riot. I'd appreciate comments on whether it should be considered a reliable source or not. Thanks. PageantUpdater talk • contribs 20:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Is the site http://host17.hrwebservices.net/~atrl/trlarchive/no.html reliable? This is being used in an article I wrote that is currently cooked in FAC. -- Efe ( talk) 02:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
is this review allowed? http://www.amazon.com/Iowa-Slipknot/dp/B00005A46T. -- Efe ( talk) 00:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Seems OK to me. And I would consider user Amazon reviews reliable evidence for the fact that a certain sentiment exists, as well; if a book has 100 reviews with an average of 2 stars, that's pretty good evidence that it wasn't liked very much...but perhaps I'm radical in this belief. ImpIn | ( t - c) 00:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
You might want to check WP:ALBUM, I believe it prohibits using Amazon as a source for anything. indopug ( talk) 01:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Following a question here, I would like to ask if Human Rights Watch can be considered a reliable source on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Note that on the talk page in question, HRW is not used used as a source for a given statement, but a HRW report is mentioned.
Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 12.06.2008 14:34
I see nothing to suggest that Human Rights Watch is not an RS. Please do not let this devolve into a discussion of what is or is not accurately labeled as "anti-Israeli", because that is off topic. Despite the blanket accusation by pro-Israeli (and pro-Chinese, etc.) groups that they are biased I see no criticism that addresses reliability. As of now it is impossible not to side with those who believe it is an RS. Please only bring forth evidence that suggests it is NOT if you have it and keep the more general Israeli Palestine conflict banter in more appropriate forums. Regards. PelleSmith ( talk) 18:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
"Garlasco told Klifi during the meeting that he was impressed with the IDF's system of checks and balances concerning its artillery fire in the Gaza Strip and unlike Hamas which specifically targeted civilians in its rocket attacks, the Israelis, he said, invested a great amount of resources and efforts not to harm innocent civilians. "Lucy Mair - head of the HRW's Jerusalem office - said Klifi's team had conducted a thorough and professional investigation of the incident and made 'a good assessment' when ruling out the possibility that an errant IDF shell had killed the seven Palestinians on the Gaza beach." All of the sources and further explanation is [6].
I suggest this thread be closed and archived; it verges on frivolous. HRW is not only acceptable as a source; it is – with Amnesty International – the best possible source on human-rights violations, period. They've been criticized as "biased" by every country they've ever published reports on, which is pretty much the whole world; this, as others have pointed out, tends rather to enhance their credibility than to diminish it.-- G-Dett ( talk) 15:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if it's just me, but I'm having a hard time getting up to speed on WP:RSN issues; I often run down this page and realize that I have no idea what the answer is going to be until I see the experts weigh in. I'm wondering if that's going to hamper my ability to be a good reviewer at WP:GAN.
Anyway, my specific question is about http://www.jobfutures.ca/en, which includes the disclaimer: "Materials on this Web site were produced and/or compiled by the Department for the purpose of providing Canadians with direct access to information about the programs and services offered by the Government of Canada. ... Disclaimer: The material herein was prepared under the direction of the department. Although every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of its contents, the Government of Canada assumes no responsibility for the accuracy or reliability of the contents of this product." You'll see a list of organizations that they relied on for their information at the given link above. Reliable source? If not, where do I find this kind of employment information? (The article I'm reviewing is Mechanical engineering). - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 19:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Specifically, this one:
http://www.alicedreger.com/home.html
She's a professor in the
Department of Medical Humanities and Bioethics at Northwester University, has written books published by the Harvard University Press and the University Publishing Group, has recently received a
Guggenheim Fellowship award, has multiple publications in peer-reviewed journals, and is a columnist for the
Hasting's Center.
Any input would be appreciated about whether her blog regarding her field of expertise meets WP:RS.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk) 15:11, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
A recent discussion about renaming a historical geographical entity - Trakai Voivodeship - (not a single source has been found to support this name) - to a referenced Troki Voivodeship has generated a stalemate on talk and an edit war in the article (since a Lithuanian webpage is being added over and over to support the Trakai name version, despite the fact that it does not contain the English "Trakai Voivodeship"). Do note that the entity which was never named with Trakai (the historical name in official language of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - Polish - was województwo trockie). Since Trakai is a Lithuanian name (the city of Trakai is currently in Lithuania), and Troki is a Polish name variant, Lithuanian editors prefer Trakai despite no English source supporting this name, Polish support Polish and input of neutral editors is needed to break the stalemate.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
World Socialist Web Site is a site run by the International Committee of the Fourth International. There are nearly 700 links, many of them as sources for commentary in articles on living individuals. I found it because a lengthy diatribe was linked as a source for the uncontroversial fact that Ken Livingstone keeps newts, probably the single best-known fact about his private life. Is this actually a reliable source? Guy ( Help!) 11:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely a website like this is unreliable. The name itself screams bias. We disreguard conservative websites, some of which seem at first glance to be professional, because they have a right wing bias, and certianly we should not give marxist/socialist websites a double standard and call them reliable when they are just as bias in the opposite direction. YahelGuhan ( talk) 20:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Should we accept the web-site JAZ.com as RS to policy?
It is apparently published from within the Satmar community of c.120,000 Orthodox Jews in Williamsburg and Brooklyn, NY. They have a number of convincing contributors, I have been able to find Reuven Waxman, Jacob Dershowitz, Leizer Fishberg, Hersh Lowenthal making detailed contributions, more or less speaking for the the "organisation". A brief letter at Rense.com written by "M. Katz" on behalf of JAZ is apparently signed by Rabbi Joseph Dershowitz, Rabbi Meyer Weberman, Rabbi Menashe Filipe, Rabbi Joseph Schmilovitz, Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, Rabbi Jeremiah Teitelbaum and Mr. Russell Waxman. (At least one and possibly two self-identified members of their community editing here have stated it speaks for them all, though this is not confirmed).
Despite JAZ.com being anti-Zionist (on religious grounds) they were sharply critical of seven Neturei Karta members who went to Ahmandinejad's "Holocaust Conference". The differences between the two groups seems to depend on whether it would be right to wind up Israel immediately, whatever danger this presented to Israelis - JAZ does not want Israel abandoned like this. It is possible that NK could be dubbed "extreme" on these grounds, but I see nothing to indicate that JAZ has the same problem. (The NK has a similar web-site, JewsNotZionists.org - examining this, I see no reason to doubt their reliability on factual matters either).
JAZ claim to be speaking on behalf of c. 150,000 anti-Zionist and around 1 million non-Zionist Jews, and it looks as if their numbers add up. Depending on how you define it, this makes them a substantial proportion of practicing followers of Judaism in the world. They have been accused of being unreliable, extreme and publishing "hate-speech" - no evidence for this has ever been produced. (Three sources describe them as "fringe", whatever that means - it's not the same as WP:FRINGE). The most contentious single article from JAZ is a transcript of an interview by a 1929 Hebron survivor, Rabbi Baruch Kaplan (also published by the NK here). We are led to believe the original is at the Otzer Emunah Tape Library of Monsey, (845)426-6812 (I've not checked this myself). Kaplan went on to be a principal (headmaster?) of the Beis Yaakov Girls School in Brooklyn, in the 1980s he was adamant that this famous massacre was caused by something that Zionists were doing in Hebron. This version is at least partly confirmed by interviews and a film made of all (?) of the remaining survivors in 1999. If there is more than simple prejudice to stop us treating these people as reliable, I'm not seeing it. I think their carefully collected evidence deserves its place in articles. PR talk 19:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
From the limited feedback at this noticeboard, there seems nothing to indicate that JewsAgainstZionism are anything other than what they claim to be, a collaborative venture speaking for a major community of devout and anti-Zionist Jews. To what extent they speak for the other devout non-Zionist Jews (they claim there to be 1 million of these in existence) is not clear. Their POV is obvious, but their honesty and historical care is not in question and they pass all the tests at WP:RS. PR talk 20:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
(<-)JAZ is an internet-vocal fringe group that should not be used on anything outside their own articles or articles about their members. -- Avi ( talk) 06:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm Hersh Lowenthal, one of the editors at jewsagainstzionism.com. It looks like no one in this discussion doubts the demographic facts about the Satmar group: about 120,000 people. See the WP article on Satmar. The dispute seems to be about whether our group truly represents Satmar, or is a fringe group similar to or identical with Neturei Karta. The confusion is compounded by the fact that NK calls itself "Jews United Against Zionism", a name similar to ours.
With that in mind, I would like to direct the attention of anyone who understands Yiddish to the articles published on December 13, 2007 by Der Yid and Der Blatt, the two main Satmar newspapers, heartily endorsing our group Natruna a.k.a. True Torah Jews Against Zionism, and describing the annual dinner at which 1500 people attended and a few major Satmar rabbis spoke. These articles are available on our Hebrew site http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/deryid kinus.htm and http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/derblatt kinus.htm. Anyone who thinks we fabricated these articles can just call up those newspapers and check it with them.
As to the much-disputed Kaplan interview, it's true that the English version published by us and NK is a free translation, and we said so openly. The original Yiddish transcript is available at http://www.natrina.org/gedolim/kaplanyiddish.htm and a word-by-word Hebrew translation is at http://natrina.org/gedolim/kaplan.htm. Natsmith ( talk) 16:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, those links I gave to Der Yid and Der Blatt came out wrong. Here are the correct links: http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/deryid%20kinus.htm. http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/derblatt%20kinus.htm. Natsmith ( talk) 17:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
All of the discussion above about the reliability of the material on the site is pretty much irrelevant. As has been explained to PR multiple times, jewsagainstzionism.com is an anonymous personal website. The owner is unknown, and the "About us" page leads to a Post Office Box. Per Wikipedia:V#Self-published_sources, "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable." That's really all there is to say on the matter, and it's conclusive. Jayjg (talk) 01:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, just though I'd ask what people thought of this wiki being used as a reliable source. It is basically a repository of Subject-specific common knowledge so does that mean it is acceptable for referencing work about Go?-- ZincBelief ( talk) 19:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdenting) Even though it is likely that most of the information in Sensei's Library is accurate, it is still an open wiki and thus less subject to editorial control than a reliable source should be. Besides, if the information is common knowledge, whether general or subject-specific, then it should be easy to find a proper reliable source for it rather than using an unreliable source. If it's information that doesn't even need a reference, then using an unreliable source isn't going to improve the article.
To use an analogy, suppose that I needed to include in an article a statement that as of 2008, George W. Bush is the president of the United States. Well, that is common knowledge, so I could probably just leave it as a bare statement with no citation and it's unlikely anyone would make a citation needed demand. But suppose I decided that I should include a reference. So I call up my dad and say, "Dad, I need a reference for a Wikipedia article. Who's the current president of the United States?" My dad answers, "George W. Bush, of course." So I thank him and put the following reference into the article: "Personal interview with User:Metropolitan90's father, June 16, 2008." Now, my father is a well-informed person and his information about who is the current president of the United States is accurate. Yet citing "As of 2008, George W. Bush is the president of the United States" to a conversation with my father would make Wikipedia look silly, or at least it would make me look silly, because there are sources out there on this topic which are not only much more reliable but are also easy to find. By the same token, we shouldn't cite to open wikis if we can find more reliable sources, even for common knowledge. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate more people to look into a very complicated RS situation. There is a heated AfD debate about the List of groups referred to as cults, where on the one hand, PelleSmith is arguing that scholars in the sociology of religion consider popular media to cover the issue very poorly, see here for some background, and he is thus opposed to the current list as it indiscriminately collects references in popular media. On the other hand, Will Beback and Milo are arguing that if media coverage is bad, it's not our duty to right great wrongs; our job is merely to adequately reflect what reliable sources say. (Some of the debate is on the AfD talk page.)
The issue is further complicated by the fact that the word "cult" can mean many things, so we have all possible things from the Baha'i Faith to Wikipedia included there, allegedly people try to add mainstream religions in order to get the list deleted. This issue, however, is a red herring, as the more fundamental debate is the one I outlined above. Normally, when academia and popular coverage of an issue diverge, e.g. evolution, we side quite emphatically with academic sources. This is why I find this issue quite hard: is the list also siding with popular sources rather than heeding the criticism of academic sources?
Also, I don't know anything about the sociology of religion, so it may well be that my above description is wrong and I don't claim the above summary is neutral. I will write a note on the AfD to ask people to check if they want to amend this summary. In any case, it would be nice if people could give their informed opinion, so we don't get just keep/delete voting there on this very difficult issue. Thanks, Merzul ( talk) 15:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
...the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. .... Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications.
I would suggest that many of the sources that are currently being used as "media" sources are not high quality in the least. It truly seems that people have grabbed whatever is available to source as many groups as they can. In line with that, while the list claims to have distinct sections for "scholarship" and "the media" many of the sources for the media section are oddly references to books (scholarly and otherwise). Many others are news reports hosted, sometimes as "summaries" on websites like RickRoss.com, the X-Family wiki, Steven Hassan's website freedomofmind.org, etc. There are also a couple of originals from skeptictank.org. Also, used over and over, are static summaries about "cult" topics from washingtonpost.com, and religioustolerance.org. To this end, I had to remove sourcing to the Encarta online encyclopedia entry for "cult" from several listings. Another multiple usage source here is a SF Chronicle obituary of Margaret T. Singer hosted on the website of a "cult books" publisher. There is at least one use of Readers Digest as a source. It is my view that above and beyond the issues outlined above the current sourcing is also atrocious. PelleSmith ( talk) 12:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone tell if publications by David Horowitz Freedom Center qualify as reliable sources. There is a related discussion here. Note that one of the sides, User:Kallahan, filed a complaint to Arbcomm [12] instead of asking here. Biophys ( talk) 19:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
So, we have:
I don't see any evidence that Frontpagemag is any less polemical and opinionated than Horowitz's other sites. What should be done, here? Guy ( Help!) 14:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
unreliable FrontPageMag and this "Freedom Center" are both highly partisan, but the unreliability doesn't stem from that. If you search the archives, you'll find how FrontPageMag has a habit of making stuff up. I wouldn't be surprised if the center did the same. Ngchen ( talk) 20:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Would the Daily Mail be considered a reliable source for Romanian crime in Europe, given that it's purported to have an anti-immigration editorial bias? I haven't been able to find an unimpeachable source to support that bias. The one in the Daily Mail article points to [15]. New Statesman is considered to be a left-wing political magazine.
The only guidance I've found so far is at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 2#Daily Mail? (UK), which implies it should be fine for non-controversial topics, but this is definitely controversial. TransUtopian ( talk) 22:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Are blogs from The Nation (thenation.com), buzzflash.com or huffingtonpost.com reliable sources for controversial materical in the Sean Hannity BLP? I've reverted some controversial material included with these sources. The blogger at The Nation is Max Blumenthal who's bio there says he's a Media Matters Fellow. Thanks. -- PTR ( talk) 18:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Alex von Tunzelmann's Indian Summer: The Secret history of the end of an empire a reliable source on British policies in the British raj? Bless sins ( talk) 03:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Sources such as [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] are being used to prove that Russia is a current superpower. They keep on getting re-inserted into the page often cited as Good references. This has gotten the page protected twice now because of edit warring and it is still not resolved. Any assistance would be great. -- UKPhoenix79 ( talk) 06:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
It would be useful to be able to cite http://cometdaily.com, however it seems unlikely that it could be a reliable source as it's essentially a collection of blogs....the issue is further clouded by the fact that many of the people contributing to the Comet (programming) article are newly arrived wikipedians from cometdaily.com. So I've come here for clarification on the matter...the site does appear to have some sort of editor review to keep overly adverty/incorrect posts out. Any help would be...helpful Restepc ( talk) 16:10, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Quite a bit has gone on since June 15th regarding this (the article appeared on reddit.com and subsequently received much editing traffic). The source in contention, cometdaily.com houses postings from many community developers that are involved in Comet development. For example; The O'Reilly Media Open source-con [28] features speaker Michael Carter [29] a regular cometdaily contributer who "shares his expertise in bi-weekly articles for the technical publication Comet Daily. It appears, concerns specifically of conflict of interest and Jacobolus have spilled over into whether or not this source is reliable. While it's unfortunate that there are COI problems as a result of Jacobolus' contributions, it should be viewed as a separate issue. A quick google search will show that in the Comet development blogs refer to and link to cometdaily frequently and can be a source of information directly from comet developers AtaruMoroboshi ( talk) 19:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
An editor is claiming here that the fact that an interview given to the BBC and available on their website but that is only available to residents of the UK for copyright reasons is Unaccessable = unverifieble = invalid. That goes for subscription links too ' ( I had mentioned subscription links as being valid links ) . I know the information may be available from other sources as in this case but with the increase in geo-blocking of sites does this mean we will not be allowed to cite such sites in future if they are the only source . Garda40 ( talk) 15:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
At the Harry Trott FAC discussion, an inquiry mas made about the reliability of this source, a biography written by a person who is the caretaker of this site, an unofficial site dedicated to the Brighton Cemetery in Melbourne, Australia.
The source is used to support the cause of death, place of death, and place of burial of the subject. The source cites its own sources: the Australian Dictionary of Biography article on Trott (this source is used elsewhere in the Wikipedia article) and an article in the (now defunct) Argus newspaper, both of which I would consider more than reliable. I was concerned about how much faith one can place in such an "unofficial" site, but the site seems to me to be more than a "fan site" and has made an effort to acknowledge its sources. Given the reasonably non-controversial nature of the claims supported by the source, is this source suitable for use in a Featured Article. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 23:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
There has been an ongoing discussion about inclusion of an image ( Portal:Discrimination/Selected picture/5) in Portal:Discrimination. I would like some opinion as to whether the sources listed in the image caption are reliable enough that we can label the image as an example of discrimination. Apologies in advance for anyone who reads the whole discussion, it's been going on for a while. Kevin ( talk) 01:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
At Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories#Particular_attribution_POV A number of changes are being discussed that involve NPOV and it needs more heads to look into the arguments and come up with good consensus. Ward20 ( talk) 00:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source to cover events relating to China and the group Falun Gong? According to [34] [35] [36] it was founded by Falun Gong practitioners and has links with the organization. A US congressional report lists the Epoch Times as a Falun Gong-linked source [37]. Even Li Hongzhi, the founder of Falun Gong, has expressed links between Epoch Times and Falun Gong practitioners [38].
My problem is, if an event received large coverage by Epoch Times, and its associates NTDTV and Sound of Hope, but little from mainstream media, can it be considered significant coverage?-- PCPP ( talk) 04:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't talking about that. Quit following me.-- PCPP ( talk) 15:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
WP:NOTE: Works produced by the subject, or those with a strong connection to them, are unlikely to be strong evidence of interest by the world at large.-- PCPP ( talk) 15:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Before it was stubified, a new editor was editing Sukyo Mahikari using "Holy Words: Goseigen by Yoshikazu Okada ISBN 0971486301 / 9780971486300 / 0-9714863-0-1 Publisher Bishop of North American Region of Sukyo Mahikari Language". He says "it is available only to members" but that he can use it because he has a copy and it might be possible to buy it in a used book store -- "f you can find a used book I'm sure you can verify the statements". Or maybe a library but he admits not many might carry it. I think this means that the book is to all intents and purposes unverifiable by Wikipedia readers and can't be used, however valuable a source it might be for the article. Although 'demonstrably findable' doesn't seem explicit policy (yet), I think it is implicit in the policy and this book fails it. But I would like comment on this. Thanks. -- Doug Weller ( talk) 09:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate Itsmejudith's efforts to verify that this in fact is a legitimate source, despite DougWeller's persistent efforts to discredit my postings. Verbatim statements of Okada's teachings *should* be allowed from the Goseigen as they are verifiable--despite the other editors feelings about other content within my contributions. Showing Sukyo Mahikari's true statements in their teachings is factual information, and for people who are thinking of joining this cult, at least they will be able to read the cult's true beliefs instead of believing the recruiting brochures which lure unsuspecting members under false pretenses. Honestyisbestpolicy ( talk) 19:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I restored a paragraph here to the article Fatimah that two editors, User:Itaqallah and User:MezzoMezzo, seem determined to keep off Wikipedia, most probably y tbecause of the nature of the section as one of the main Shi'a- Sunni differences.
The section is supposed the represent the point of view of both Sunnis and Shias, and the paragraph starts with "There are two distinct views on the manner of her death between the Shias and Sunnis. Shias maintain[...]" The Shi'a point of view was both poorly represented and poorly sourced. User:Itaqallah, then User:MezzoMezzo kept reverting the edit contending that al-islam.org and Sistani's al-shia.com are polemical, unreliable and represent the Shi'a point of view (I later pointed out, referring to the beginning of the paragraph, that this is precisely what they're supposed to do), despite the fact that both are the main Shia websites on the internet, with the latter being run by the foremost authority in Shi'a Islam and the former being cited by the Columbia University here (as a main reference on Islam), the British Academy here, the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade here, the George Mason University here, Intute here, and is archived by the Library of Congress.
Again, the section is supposed the represent the Shi'a point of view so even if the websites were polemical, which they are not, they represent the Shi'a point of view which should be properly represented in the article. I personally think this just a case of POV-pushing by a couple of editors who want what's written in the article to comply with their beliefs. Enforcing Neutrality ( talk) 08:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I just wasted hours of my time searching for the books online and locating the passages to find that I didn't have to and every source al-islam.org referred to is correct. Now please don't undermine my efforts and stop wasting anymore of my time. Enforcing Neutrality ( talk) 14:16, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Itaqallah, I want to get this over with. I can see you speak Arabic, so you'll have no problem reading the sources. Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari's Tarikh is downloadable here. The text is located in the fourth word document. It reads:حدثنا ابن حميد ، قال : حدثنا جرير ، عن مغيرة ، عن زياد بن كليب ، قال : أتى عمر بن الخطاب منزل علي وفيه طلحة والزبير ورجال من المهاجرين ، فقال : والله .لأحرقن عليكم أو لنخرجن إلى البيعة . فخرج عليه الزبير مصلتا بالسيف ، فعثر فسقط السيف من يده ، فوثبوا عليه فأخذوه In english: Ibn Hamid told us: Jarir told us, from Mughirah, from Ziad ibn Kulaib: Umar ibn al Khattab came to the house of Ali and in it were Talha and Zubair and men of the Muhajirin. He said: By God I will burn it on you or you come out and swear allegiance. Zubair came out with his sword, he tripped and the sword fell from his hand, so they jumped on him and took him.
Ibn Abed Rabboh's al-Iqd ul-fareed is read here. It reads:فأما عليّ والعباس والزبير فقعدوا في بيت فاطمة حتى بَعث إليهم أبو بكر عمرَ ابن الخطاب ليُخرِجهم من بيت فاطمة وقال له: إِن أبوا فقاتِلْهم .فأقبل بقَبس من نار على أن يُضرم عليهم الدار فلقيته فاطمةُ فقالت: يا بن الخطاب أجئت لتُحرق دارنا قال: نعم أو تدخلوا فيمادخلتْ فيه الأمة In english As for Ali, Abbas and Zubair, they stayed in the house of Fatima until Abu Bakr sent Umar to get them out of Fatima's house and told him: if they refuse, fight them. He took a torch to burn the house and Fatima met him and told him: are you here to burn our house? He said: yes, or you enter what the Ummah has entered (i.e swear allegiance).
Al-Shahrastani's Al-Milal wa al-Nihal is read here. It reads: فقال: إن عمر ضرب بطن فاطمة يوم البيعة حتى ألقت الجنين من بطنها وكان يصيح: أحرقوا دارها بمن فيها وما كان في الدار غير علي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين In english: And he said: Umar kicked Fatima's stomach on the day of allegiance until she she miscarried and he yelled: Burn her house and whoever is in it except Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn.
Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani's Lisan al Mizan is read here. It reads on page 268: أن عمر رفس فاطمة حتى أسقطت بمحسن. In English: Umar kicked Fatima until she miscarried Muhsin.
Al-Baladhuri's Genealogies of the Nobles is read here. It reads: أن أبا بكر أرسل إلى عليّ يريد البيعة، فلم يبايع. فجاء عمر، ومعه قبس فتلقته فاطمةُ على الباب، فقالت فاطمة: يا بن الخطاب، أتراك محرّقاً علي بابي؟ قال: نعم، وذلك أقوى فيما جاء به أبوك. In english: Abu Bakr sent for Ali demanding allegiance, but he didn't give gim allegiance. Umar came with a torch and was met by Fatima at the door, she told him: Ibn al-Khattab, are you here at my door to burn the house(?)? He said: Yes, this is stronger than what your father has ever done.
Al-Safadi's al-Wafi bil-Wafiyyat is accessible here. It reads in the sixth volume, page 15: إنّ عمر ضرب بطن فاطمة (عليها السلام) يوم البيعة حتّى ألقت المحسن من بطنها In english: Umar kicked Fatima's stomach on the day of allegiance until she miscarried Muhsin.
Yusuf ibn Abd-al-Barr's al-Isti'ab is downloadable here and Ibn al-Athir's the Complete History is downloadable here. I didn't locate the texts because I already wasted too much time working on the others. Hopefully you wouldn't mind working on these to prove me wrong.
As for Ibn Qutaybah's Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa and al-Mas'udi's Ithbat ul-Wasiyyah, I couldn't find them on the internet so I will to a bookstore check if they're correct, but a Salafi quotes Mas'udi in his book accessible here as having said in his book Ithbat ul-Wasiyya: فهجموا عليه [ علي عليه السلام ] وأحرقوا بابه ، واستخرجوه كرها وضغطوا سيدة النساء بالباب حتى أسقطت محسنا or they attacked him (Ali), burned his door and took him out by force and pressed [Fatima] against the door until she miscarried Muhsin and calls him a Rafidi immediately after quoting him, so I doubt the source is misquoted.
Finally, I hope this can put an end to this dispute and I hope we could be on good terms after. Regards, Enforcing Neutrality ( talk) 22:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
The fact is that Shia and Sunnis have very different narrations of certain events and the distinction should be clearly specified. Technically speaking, Itaqallah is correct in removing material that are not sufficiently sourced, but I doubt that he is ignorant about the factuality of some of the sentences he is removing [43]. -- Be happy!! ( talk) 09:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a WP:REDFLAG article, claiming that all ancient history took place in the Middle Ages and that no history goes back beyond 800 AD. So "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" should apply. However, despite some of Fomenko's publications being in English, there are a number of references to works by Fomenko with the references entirely in Russian, so I have no idea what is being referenced and have no way of knowing what the actual text says or where the claim is vague, what the specifics are. It's my opinion what when the claim would so clearlyy "significantly alter mainstream assumptions" that Fomenko's claims should all be referenced by English language translations of his works. Doug Weller ( talk) 17:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I wish to inquire about the potential usage of citations from babylonjewry.org.il and in particular nahardea, the organization's magazine. babylonjewry is the most prominent NGO dealing with the history and heritage of iraqi jews, containing several of the most comprehensive archives on related subjects. furthermore, its research branch is staffed by several academic figures of expertise on the subject (such as prof. shmuel moreh and dr. yehuda zvi) and publishes its own academic journal as well. the problem is that the magazine is not peer reviewed (while the academic journal is) and that most of the material is in hebrew.
now, the questions:
MiS-Saath ( talk) 19:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Is United World Chart remain reliable despite being deleted? How about aCharts.us? -- Efe ( talk) 02:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Joshua project a reliable source to indicate population figures as it seemed to have been used in some articles. It is usful because some of the data is not available from national census figures as these ethnic groups are not recognized by some national governments for various reasons. Thanks Taprobanus ( talk) 21:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
What is the best source for the religious beliefs of a particular group (WHAT they believe, not the validity of those beliefs)? Is a website produced by the group an acceptable source to be used as a reference? Rev107 ( talk) 03:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Can I use commercial sites such as amazon.com to source a page like The Simpsons DVDs? -- Maitch ( talk) 12:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I just came across Manga Murder and am wondering if it really has reliable sources. At first glance, the answer appears to be a resounding "YES", however, of the 9 references this article lists, 7 refer right back to the same article, which I belive is a violation of WP:EL, 1 (ref link # 4) appears to be ok, it links to the animenewsnetwork.com, 1 final one ( link # 7) appears to link to a Flemmish magazine, with no translation given, however a still from the manga mentioned appears in this article. Without a translation it's hard to tell. I believe a translation is required according to policy. If I pare down the article to only the cited reference I know to be good (# 4) that leaves only one reference and one heck of a stubby article. I figured I should get some more eyes on this before I even attempt something that BOLD :), so..check the article and see if I'm on target or not. Thanks Just say "NO" to WP:FUR 19:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Just say "NO" to WP:FUR 13:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
There are several sources and external links on the above page about which I am dubious. These include:
Do the rest of you think that these pages meet the qualifications for RS and External links or not? John Carter ( talk) 17:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Anime Jump a reliable source? They review stuff and interview people. - Malkinann ( talk) 02:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Dr. Robert C. Fuller of Bradley University considered a reliable source on American religion topics? Are there any cautions in using his work for citations? Low Sea ( talk) 18:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
At the List of Mensans, I've provided what I believe are three very solid reliable sources: an article from the online version of the Sydney Morning Herald [44], a reprint of an Orlando Sentinel article (from the American Mensa website, noted there are a reprint and credited) [45], and an entertainment section article from CBS News online [46]. These sources all state that Jodie Foster is a member of Mensa. However, another editor insists that another source overrides all of these. This is a (mostly) Italian-language video from RAI, in which Foster apparently states that she isn't a member of Mensa [47]. The interview is almost entirely in Italian; Foster does speak in English for much of it, however this is mixed way down and an Italian language overdub obscures it. The video is extremely long and there is no specific indication of exactly when she makes this statement. So, are the first three references considered reliable and do they satisfy WP:V? And does the RAI source also satisfy the requirement and trump the first three? Nobody of Consequence ( talk) 03:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This is insane. Here we have the subject herself clearly saying she is not a member of Mensa (at 4m 23s) and we can't even use that because it is supposedly inaudible or in a foreign language? She's speaking in English and you can clearly hear what she says. A user has even provided a transcription on the Jodie Foster Talk page. ☆ CieloEstrellado 14:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
We're having a lot of issues with reliable sources at Talk:Taekwondo. I'd like to get an opinion on some I feel aren't reliable and later will ask about some I feel are reliable.
In Uk Heo: I've been arguing that this [48] isn't a reliable source as no one has been able to identify whether it refers to an article, book, essay, etc., and if the paragraph given there is an abstract, review, summary, etc. Currently only what appears in that web link is being used as the source--not the underlying document. See Talk:Taekwondo#Footnote_.237_.28In_Uk_Heo.29 for more discussion.
A Study on Shaping of the Taekwondo, In Uk Heo
David Cook: I've also argued that Cook, Doug (2006), "Chapter 3: The Formative Years of Taekwondo", Traditional Taekwondo: Core Techniques, History and Philosophy. Boston: YMAA Publication Center, p. 19. ISBN 978-1594390661 [49], is not a reliable source on TKD history as it's a photo book of TKD techniques by a TKD instructor without apparent academic training. See Talk:Taekwondo#Traditional_Taekwondo:_Core_Techniques.2C_History_and_Philosophy for more links, excerpts, and discussion.
There are also several TKD web sites being used as TKD history sources despitethe fact that they conflict with independent sources (see the most recent Talk archive there), and I hope to discuss those later. Any help would be appreciated. JJL ( talk) 15:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Vedda org a reliable source for articles about Vedda people ?. It is run by Living Heritage Trust. Associated people are
I've been arguing at Talk:Taekwondo that the following are highly reliable sources, at least in comparison to other available sources which in comparison lack independence and peer-review, and that these should be given relatively greater weight. I'd appreciate feedback on that. See Talk:Taekwondo/Archive_4#Sources_on_Japanese_origins and other parts of that page for further discussion and details.
Capener: Steven D. Capener, Ph.D. (formerly a professor at Ewha Womans University, Korea), "Problems in the Identity and Philosophy of T'aegwondo and Their Historical Causes"; in the (peer-reviewed, ISI--indexed) Korea Journal (Winter 1995 [50]) [51], also available here [52]. The article was written while he was completing his doctoral studies.
Burdick: Dakin Burdick, M.A., "People & Events of Taekwondo's Formative Years," volume 6, number 1 (1997) [53], in the respected, peer-reviewed Journal of Asian Martial Arts. The article contains a great deal of additional information. For more on JAMA see here [54], including the Library Journal recommendation of it. Expanded version of the article here [55].
Dohrenwend: Robert Dohrenwend, Ph.D., "The Truth about Taekwondo (Parts 1,2)", Dragon Times #22-23 [56] (continued in Classical Fighting Arts #1,2 [57]); excerpt here [58]. Dragon Times and its replacement Classical Fighting Arts are well-respected, serious magazines with academically-trained editorial boards. Classical Fighting Arts is endorsed by the The Library Journal [59].
Henning: Stanley Henning, M.A., "Traditional Korean Martial Arts", Journal of Asian Martial Arts Vol. 9, No. 1, (2000): On Prof. Henning's credentials and the regard in which his work is held see [60], [61], [62].
JJL ( talk) 16:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
According to WP:RS says,
According to WP:V says,
Point is... "Articles should not be based primarily on extremist sources." "fringe theories should only be used as sources about themselves" Manacpowers ( talk) 17:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
My Answer is Here. Here is not suitable place for discuss this topic. Manacpowers ( talk) 17:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Last, These sources are already used as source in main Article. so, it is worthless discuss at here.
this discussion is no need. JJL is a only one person who make this complain. Manacpowers ( talk) 11:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your message. You haven't said why you think that the sources the other user wishes to use are "fringe". A source can have a very strong point of view and not be fringe at all. The sources he mentioned appeared to be academic in nature - is that not your impression? Copying this exchange to the RS noticeboard. Itsmejudith ( talk) 11:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
According to WP:RS says,
I already proved that various counterpart academic source. by various sources and public trusted encyclopedia, His edit of original research by his favorites sources are identified as a depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view,conspiracy theories, no scientific data. and you must not forget, My edits supported by the various academic sources, too. Manacpowers ( talk) 14:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
If you think it can be main stream view, Please bring me ANY public trusted encyclopedia source. what public trusted encyclopedia say TKD is karate? In fact, There is no encyclopedia say TKD is karate. This is a common sense. (We don't need Karate affiliated sources & no scientific data.) I can prove that my point of view is a mainstream. Manacpowers ( talk) 15:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
According to another mediator Omnedon said [63], "JJL seem now to be arguing simply about what sources should be allowed to be cited in the article; but it already includes the essence of your position as one possibility. However, not everyone agrees with you on that, and not all sources support your position; so it is not stated as incontrovertible fact, and other positions are also described." Manacpowers ( talk) 15:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know if the following site: [64] is a reliable source. Thank you. JayJ47 ( talk) 09:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Would you say that this site, http://www.tvtonight.com.au/, is a reliable one? I know it is a blog, but note that it is "Australia's Leading TV Blog", (lol) and it does seem to be quite reliable. I am using it to source most of the information here: Underbelly (TV series), and this issue is stopping it from becoming a GA. Please help! Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 15:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that a source that can't be verified by current editors should be removed or perhaps placed on the talk page with a request for verification.
I'm posting this to request clarification. This is a general question, not about a particular instance.
What's the recommended way to handle references that are difficult or impossible to verify?
This can come about in various ways. Examples:
When a source like those is added by a current editor, the editor can provide a quote on the talk page or other assurance that it's been verified. If the editor is trusted, that resolves the concern.
But what about situations where the un-verifiable source was added long ago by an editor who is not currently active? Should we be using sources that we are not able to confirm? -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 18:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm involved in a discussion at Talk:Boing_Boing#Violet_Blue_Controversy. The issue is the already notable and wikified Violet Blue seems to have been expunged from the records at Boing Boing. While this initially kicked up a flurry of posts in the blogosphere about the matter, the issue was picked up at latimes.com (albeit in their Opinion / Blog section) and was even on their front page most of yesterday.
The other editors are putting up the rather perplexing argument that sources are only notable if they are "in print". Please see the last comment by BenBurch at the Talk:Page, where he says "Yeago, respectfully, I didn't make the "in print" rule, Norquist didn't make the "in print" rule. That rule was made here long ago and underpins this whole project." I haven't read anything asserting this in my 5 years here and I'm surprised that its made so casually from someone who's been here for 4 years, BenBurch.
At any rate, does http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/webscout/2008/06/violet-blue-scr.html do the job of presenting this issue as notable enough and worthy of mention in the related articles? Yeago ( talk) 20:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I've come across an editor who has continually added material from Urban Review, which appears to me to be a self-published, albeit clean, blog (although I don't know if this particular editor is the person who posts there). The editor has posted links to pages there that contain musical artists' videos, poster reviews and copied items from other webpages such as US Magazine. Is there any situation in which this blog would be an acceptable source that I don't know about? I've removed the references to these pages and posted two notes on the editor's page about the videos, and now one about the other sources. Am I correct to assume this is not an acceptable source? Wildhartlivie ( talk) 09:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
What makes the Blogger reputable, by nature of a blog, the blogger will want as many people as possible to read it. so he will make every effort to at least appear reputable, yet as you mentioned, it is still an opinion. so is an opinion actually a source at all? Agungsatu ( talk) 14:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
An editor on an article on which I'm working has identified a web video of a news report as a possible source. However, it seems to be a pirate copy (or at least there is no indication that it's an authorised copy), it's in a language I don't speak - although the uploader has added a translation as subtitles - and there's no indication of when it was broadcast. This obviously means I can't verify for myself whether the translation is accurate; it's clearly been edited by the uploader, given the addition of subtitles; and we couldn't link to it anyway because of its likely copyvio status. Does anyone think this is likely to be a reliable source? My instinct says no but I thought I would ask for some independent views. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
It also might be of assistance if you could at least tell us what language it might be. This would prevent editors from wasting time if they do not speak the language and would prompt multi-lingual editors that are proficient to examine it. Agungsatu ( talk) 14:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
There is currently a dispute at soy milk on whether or not a controversial claim made in a commercial advertisement is encyclopedic material. There is currently a RfC under progress concerning this issue among others. Please help resolve this dispute. Thank you. Cydevil38 ( talk) 00:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I believe that it makes an substantial controversy makes an impact on those who are accustom to making purchases of a particular product. and therefore I believe it should be included. while soy milk may not determine the course of nations, it is related to the health movement and important enough to a large group of people. Agungsatu ( talk) 15:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I am posting this to determine if a site that ranks professionals who have guru status by "he criteria for judging the TOP 30 focused on: Originality of ideas, practicality of ideas, presentation style, international outlook, impact of ideas, quality of publications and writings, dispersion of publications and writings, public opinion, guru factor."
there are 2 things that are wrong with the site. one, it has google ads, and 2 part of the ranking is done by the public.
the question is: since most of the gurus ranked on the site are also on wikipedia, should there guru awards be a part of their biographies?
there are 2 categories, leadership and communication
please refer to http://www.leadershipgurus.net and http://communicationgurus.net
Hotmarcie ( talk) 12:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
My boss was part of this survey last year, and he is pretty credible as the MD on Nestle Malaysia. Personally I find the site ok, not a great design but seems to have credible content specifically with the gurus list and my personal encounter with the original research. I also believe that would be the main draw. The rest seems like filler.
on another note, I cannot help but notice that Ckatz is not following the Wiki-guidelines of "assume good intentions", and has already labled this a "spamming" - perhaps a bit more objectivity would be in order. Agungsatu ( talk) 15:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
This [66] is the website of an amateur Egyptologist. I really don't know if it qualifies as a reliable source or not. In trying to decide I ran into INTUTE [67] "is a free online service providing you with access to the very best Web resources for education and research. The service is created by a network of UK universities and partners. Subject specialists select and evaluate the websites in our database and write high quality descriptions of the resources." Now that looks really useful as a guide. But, for this site, it says [68]"Absolute Egyptology is a site that is focussed on ancient Egyptian history. It contains sections with articles about the different dynasties and kings of ancient Egypt. The articles are fairly extensive and illustrated with images and drawings. There is a virtual tour of the mastaba at Beit Khallaf in Middle Egypt. Although the site is hosted by a commercial company that designs websites it is obviously a labour of love by the Swedish amateur Egyptologist Ottar Vendel. The site is easy to navigate and pleasant to look at and although the articles have no references the information is balanced and to the point. This site is a good introduction to Egyptology and especially ancient Egyptian history for students and anyone interested in the subject." It sounds like a nice site to me, but maybe not really good enough for Wikipedia. I'd like other people's opinions. Thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 12:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
this is obviously someone who has done their research, and done it well. The site seem to be filled with very useful and interesting information and I personally think it is a very credible source.
Agungsatu (
talk) 15:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Is the Quackwatch website a reliable source for the numbers of advisers to the organisation? More eyes on sourcing generally on this article and helping to call a stop to edit warring would be very welcome. Itsmejudith ( talk) 16:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
This site seems to be used as a reference in many articles. This quote "Read this site at your own risk. I make a lot of mistakes. I have no proof-reader and there are plenty of pages, like this one, which have been around since the 1990s and may no longer apply or be correct. I'm just one guy. No mater how stupid something may be, if I don't catch it, it gets out there anyway and stays wrong for years until someone points it out. I can't track everything; I've written thousand of pages and write a few more every day." from the about page suggests it is not reliable. I am inclined to remove all of these links when used as factual references. Kevin ( talk) 02:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
A quote about aerial bombing, circling the internet and attributed to East German author Wolfgang Schreyer, is used as source in several articles like Bombing of Frampol, Area bombardment. Its recent addition to Strategic bombing during World War II led to editwarring. Is this author, and especially "Augen am Himmel: Eine Piratenchronik" (aka "Eyes from the sky"), a reliable source? Can the quote be sourced in any way at all? -- Matthead Discuß 09:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
This query is about whether the works of Wolfgang Schreyer are considered a Reliable source for Wikipedia or not. So far, I haven't seen any evidence that they are. -- Matthead Discuß 16:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to get an article ( No Such Thing as Vampires) to FA status, but one user said that I had an unreliable ref. The site, Moonlight Information Archive, is a fan site for the show Moonlight, so it is not considered to be reliable, but what I am sourcing is an interview. The interview is with the series creator, and is one of the best interviews out there. I think that an interview is an interview, and even though the interview was with an unreliable website, the series creator still said those words. Thanks for your help - Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 07:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Is The Futon Critic considered to be reliable? Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 16:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if you could have a look at the article Sheylanli. I believe that the sources for that article are all unreliable and there is a very persistance user who keeps insisting that the sources remain and that no tags requesting better sources be added to the article. To summarize the problem I see with the sources in the article:
http://azerbaijanfoundation.org/cgi-bin/e-cms/vis/vis.pl?s=001&p=0114&n=000535&prev=yes is being used to show that the village is a Kurdish village. My concern is that it is an Azerbaijani propaganda site.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/07/eu http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=324193&apc_state=henh http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm#822 Are being used to show that the Armenian military controls the region when http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm#822 clearly says that it's the local ethnic Armenians in the region
http://www.worldcitydb.com/lachinskiy_in_azerbaijan_state.html is being used to show the distance from Azerbaijan's captal Baku. No where on that site does it state the distance from Azerbaijan's captal. It does not to be a seem reliable to me.
http://www.maplandia.com/azerbaijan/azerbaydzhan-territor/seylanli/ is being used to show the geographic coordinates. It does not seem to be a reliable source to me.
Sharafnameh, Moscow, 1967, page 370, in Russian http://www.pan-iranism.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1218 are being used to give the history of the village. It is a web forum.
'A. Alekberov “Esseys on the study of Kurdish culture” in Russian, Baku 1936, page 40-62' is being used to give a history of the village. This does not seem a reliable source to me.
http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/anti-terror/ater21eng.htm http://www.bvahan.com/ArmenianWay/AW/Eng/provinces/kashatagh/sheylani.html Are being used to give the history and some historical monuments of the village. They don't seem like reliable sources to me. The first seems like an Azerbaijani propaganda site.
Please advise. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 00:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, to simplify matters, let's discuss one source at a time.
To ask a more abstract question about original images. How could we verify that this picture isn't just taken in my back yard? Merzul ( talk) 17:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps, you guys could wait until someone looks into this. Unfortunately, this disputes seems a bit too complicated for me; hopefully someone will look into this soon enough. Until then, stay cool... meanwhile I'll check my back yard to make sure those pictures weren't taken there. ;) Merzul ( talk) 22:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that the article get temporarily stubbed and that we discuss here each source for inclusion one at a time before adding it to the article. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 00:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Meowy, you are right the village existed since it was destroyed during the NK war. I have also read Karapetian's book and there the author introduces new names, Armenian version of all names of villages in
Lachin. The author approximates the name of village Katos to be something in Armenian language like Gutuz. However, according to kurdish historian
Shamil Askerov and many other Azerbaijani scholars who did research on the names of kurdish villages in Azerbaijan (published in Azerbaijani), the name Katos doesn't have any relation with what is said to be Gutuz. The name Katos in
Kurmanji means Land of potatoes. The story behind is that in the late 18th century people from
Sheylanli realized that there was a land close by
Sheylanli (about 15 km to the southeast of the village) which was very productive for potatoes and a couple of families decided to settle in that place which later named as Katos -- Land of potatoes. That was the starting point of the history of Katos referred as historical Gutuz by Armenians.
Regarding the Armenian monasteries in Azerbaijan, before
Islam in
Caucasian Albania, where is now modern Azerbaijan, the religion was
Christianity. Since later the religion in Azerbaijan was changed to Islam, now Christian Armenians claim everything that has sign of Christianity, historically to be belong them which is obviously not true as one you mentioned above ...Armenian monastery near Katos....
And the last part of your comment, Lachin, and so villages in Lachin, was Azerbaijani region and occupied by Armenian. Above you are saying "under Azeri occupation" which is obviously propaganda according to the followings:
“ | Karabakh Armenian forces broke through to Armenia at the Azerbaijani town of Lachin, creating the so-called Lachin corridor. At Lachin, roughly ten kilometers separates Armenia from Karabakh. -- Human Rights Watch. Azerbaijan: Seven Years of Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. 1994. ISBN:1564321428. The biggest wave of IDPs came in 1993 as Armenian forces from Nagorno-Karabakh, with support from the Republic of Armenia, forced out the Azeri civilian population successively from seven provinces ( Lachin, Kelbajar, Agdam, Fizuli, Jibrail, Qubatli and Zangelan) adjacent to Nagorno-Karabakh. -- Roberta Cohen, Francis Mading Deng. The Forsaken People: Case Studies of the Internally Displaced. 1998. ISBN:0815715145. |
” |
Gülməmməd Talk 01:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I have added dubious and fact tags to all the unreliably sourced passages in this article. I'll give it some time for the author(s) to properly source these passages, after which they will be removed if they are not properly sourced. No need to keep beating a dead horse, either there are reliable sources for the passages or there aren't. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
No consensus on an AFD means that there is no consensus to keep or delete. It doesn't mean that the sources in the article are OK. Seriously instead of reverting back in unreliably sourced information, why don't you get images that are sourced and use some of the sources that are reliable? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 04:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
In a related article please see Sheylan (not to be confused with Sheylanli). user:Gulmammad has just reinserted a blog as a source. I'm really finding all of this incredibly frustrating. So much time and energy needs to be expended just to ensure that reliable sources need to be used. It is very frustrating that admins will tar both sides in this dispute with the same brush regardless of whether one side is tendentiously adding unreliable sources and the other is trying to build an encyclopedia with reliable sources. The way that this should be dealt with is that readdition of unreliable sources should be treated like vandalism. Sorry for the rant but I'm finding this really frustrating. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I completely agree with Seraphimblade but since you are one who is unsatisfied with sources, please first point out clearly why do you think sources are not reliable for a given fact. Then I'll respond. Gülməmməd Talk 04:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
To Answer Seraphims question above. I did a google search for both Sheylanli and for Seylanli (possibly the Azerbaijani spelling of the village if the village even exists) and could not find a single reliable source. I found some maplandia.com type user created maps I also found blogs and the advocacy/propaganda sites that Gulmammad has been using. These are not reliable sources because they don't undergo any type of verification or editorial review and might also be considered extremist sources. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 04:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Why do we need a source that the village is occupied by Armenia? It is pretty obvious. CIA World Factbook says: Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan; over 800,000 mostly ethnic Azerbaijanis were driven from the occupied lands and Armenia; [72] Lachin district of Azerbaijan, where the village is located, is one of those regions occupied by Armenia. I don't see here any issue that is worth lengthy discussion, the fact is pretty obvious. -- Grandmaster ( talk) 08:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Like I mentioned above, I think the best way is for Sheylanli and Sheylan to be stubbed and for the sources to be discussed in this noticeboard before adding them. I'm sure that a discussion of notability would also be prudent but right now the article contains only unreliable sources and I presume we don't want that in wikipedia so they should be removed. I also believe the article should be edit protected after stubbing and that new material be added using the edit protected request template (I forget the official name of it). Thoughts? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I still am having a difficult time following this discussion, as, I imagine, are many here. Might it be possible for both of you to restrict your comments to content matters, such as sources and article material, and refrain from commenting on one another? Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Since this discussion with the author of the articles is obviously a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT with regard to reliable sources. I ask the admins following this thread to act on my proposal to stub and protect the article and we can add later expand the article by discussing sources on this noticeboard. If anyone has any other suggestions please post them. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated Sheylanli tribe (né Sheylan) for deletion. If you wish to participate in the deletion debate please post here. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 16:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Could someone confirm whether these sources are reliable and whether they say what they claim to say in the article:
OK Gulmammad, you've shown that works with these titles exist. Now who can verify that the above claims are made in these works? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 19:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)