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We've got a discussion going on at the Latin American Britons talk page about the use of population estimates that are described by the source as "guesstimates". For me, there are two issues: firstly, are guesstimates suitable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article if they're labelled as such; and secondly, is the source reliable? Given that the estimates are so far off the 2001 Census figures, I'm doubtful about whether they're reliable. Cordless Larry ( talk) 10:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
At Talk:Plymouth#The_History_section_and_summary_style, User:Bsrboy has stated that he thinks that the snippets provided by Google Book Search can be considered reliable sources. I disagree, for the simple reason that there's insufficient context. I haven't found any discussion where a consensus opinion has emerged on this, so for the record I ask: Are Google Book Search snippet views (like these) reliable sources? Thanks, — SMALL JIM 16:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
This is the context for it:
During the English Civil War Plymouth sided with the Parliamentarians and so was isolated from the surrounding regions of Devon and Cornwall which were held by Royalist sympathisers. The town was besieged for almost four years until the Royalists were defeated. Various skirmishes and confrontations occurred, including the battle of St Budeaux and the rout of Royalist cavalry along Lipson Ridge. [1] [2] [3]
bsrboy ( talk) 20:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I've added another reference to it from the BBC. bsrboy ( talk) 10:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Is vevmo a reliable source for news pertaining to The Real World? I relied on this page for info on the cast for The Real World: Hollywood before mtv.com had any info on that cast, and almost everything about the entire cast turned out to be correct, right down to the identity of the two cast members who left the series close to the end of it, and the two new ones that replaced them. They even had headshots of the cast members. (To be fair, the hometowns of six of the nine cast members is different from the ones now given by mtv.com.) Someone even created a vevmo article, though it is currently the focus of an AfD discussion. While AfD pertains to notability, this page is for reliability. What do you think? Nightscream ( talk) 18:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Understood. Thanks. Nightscream ( talk) 06:28, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Once again, an editor is adding content to Play party based on his own personal experiences rather than any kind of reliable sources. Sources have been asked for for this content for years, and they just never emerge... and various editors seem to just re-add it or remove {{ fact}} tags endlessly. per WP:V the burden is on people wanting to restore content to find sources... they've literally had years here yet still it's restored without sources again and again despite being challenged. -- Rividian ( talk) 02:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Editors remove requests for sources [2] [3] from Ukrainization and Ukraine arguing that opinions for which sources were asked are "common knowledge" or "discouraging Russian is evidenced by the banning of Russian". What the correct action should be? -- windyhead ( talk) 08:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I believe the Great Wall of China Forum is a reliable source. It represents information, photos, and maps I have personally collected on-site at numerous Great Wall of China locations over the years as well as through research via the many books shown on the site. Just because I have chosen to present this information on a site that is a forum is not a good reason to exclude it from links sections. I have found that many of the Great Wall of China pages on Wikipedia (there are many) contain external links to sites that have incorrect information and those links remain while the Great Wall Forum has been deleted. There is a lot of misinformation on the Great Wall of China and not much high-quality information in English language available on the Internet. The site is non-profit, non-commercial, and advertising-free. It has information, maps, and other material that is not available anywhere else. Thanks, Bryanfeldman ( talk) 18:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Are these considered reliable sources? seresin ( ¡? ) 20:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Anyone can write for about.com and there is no fact checking or editorial oversight; it depends on whether the author meets WP:SPS as an expert. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I took another look, and , to my surprise, I think they are all 3 usable, with reservations, for most purposes. the Huffington Post is in my opinion as reliable for its signed stories as any conventionally published political newspaper or magazine. They are not contributed by just whoever wants to, like Wikinews. These are editorially selected, & include major essays by major writers. Arianna Huffington herself is an important political commentator, and what she writes can be cited --attributed to her of course. The commentary that miscellaneous people put in afterwards, that's another matter--that is not usable unless it happens to be from someone reliable. About.com has various parts. Some of the content from Wikipedia, but the other principle articles are made or at least screened by a selected list of contributors, who they claim to screen for expertise--read the article on it. It s furthermore published under the control of an undoubtedly reliable publisher, the NYT company--it's not a bunch of unscreened amateurs like here, though one does not know their actual standards. I would not automatically reject such content. I wouldn't use it for negative BLP, but that part does have editorial control and is therefore usable. Again, the stuff the readers write in as responses are another matter entirely. I havce been assuming its unreliable, but I think we need to take another look there. Gawker is a little trickier because of its subject specialization in celebrity gossip. But here again, the main items are under editorial control. The comments on the articles are like any other such comments. Using anything on a site like this for negative BLP is like using a tabloid. I'm not sure its worse than conventional tabloids, though. DGG ( talk) 04:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Agree completely with DGG. The level of ignorance as to these sources is surprising. Please try to do basic research before commenting. About.com selects for experts on all the publications that I've seen from it. I happen to read their economics blog a fair bit, written by an MBA school professor / economics consultant. The Huffington Post usually has tons of major names writing for them, and it would be perverse to assume that there is no editorial oversight -- when a news publication, especially a massively notable/influential one, publishes something, they try to keep a decent reputation up. Since they have expert columnists, they may give a fair amount of leeway. It really depends on the columnist -- the nice thing about the Huffington Post is that there is more emphasis on the columnists than you might see in your average newspaper, or especially the AP. For example, a glance at their recent Business posts shows a Wharton grad/former commodities trader, a VP of an investment fund, the executive director of the Sierra Club, and economics Nobel Laureate Gary Becker. Gawker is less reliabie, as you'd expect, and I expect the major things in there get repeated in more reputable publications. It's more like a tabloid (in the pejorative, rather than the format, sense). II 04:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context.
I agree that it depends (use common sense?). When I've seen people ask these real general questions about sources here, my first response has been "what is the context"? As far as the mother, she did write a book related to the subject, and some areas might lend themselves to a "mother's perspective". Apologies; I was inaccurate with regards to About.com: their information should be looked at as basically a SPS, since they basically give you a section and let you do what you want. The Huffington Post appears to be basically like a newspaper: they syndicate columnists and publish news; they have an editorial board, ect. II 06:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
An IP address editor has been deleting a series of website sources from the above article on the grounds that they are unreliable. One of the sources is directly copied from Saddam Hussein where presumably it was considered acceptable on a high profile article. The websites with the sources quote reputable newspapers/news agencies verbatim, but as they date from pre-internet days I can't find any first hand quotes and the subject is not extensively covered in readily available books. Could I have comments about whether these sources could be considered Reliable Sources. Ironically after deleting the sourced comments, the IP editor put up a notice about the lack of sources in the article. Dabbler ( talk) 00:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Is http://www.mania.com/ reliable? I'm not sure... Corn.u.co.pia ĐЌ Disc.us.sion 03:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
A user has been adding Turkey entries in many song-related articles using this site. Is the source reliable and is it the official chart of Turkey? Thank you. -- Efe ( talk) 12:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
This is something I thought would have been discussed before now & my apologies if a definitive answer has been given. (Attempting to search Wikipedia for the answer has brought up nothing on this.)
Is the website American Chronicle a reliable source? I ask this for two reasons: one is how an article from this site has been used in the article Ogaden National Liberation Front to introduce some information that I find definitely "iffy", writing from my experience in the area. (Had it appeared in another source, especially one I trusted, I would have given it the benefit of the doubt.) The other is that after studying the website, I find the following disclaimer:
The American Chronicle and its affiliates have no responsibility for the views, opinions and information communicated here.
The contributor(s) and news providers are fully responsible for their content.
In addition, the views and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of the American Chronicle or its affiliates.
So I could write an article about how I got cheated out of the 1938 Nobel Prize for medicine, & they'd publish it with that qualification? I'd assume that an undeniable requirement to be a reliable source is that it takes responsibility for what it prints. Any thoughts? -- llywrch ( talk) 19:47, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
My experience with the American Chronicle is that they don't have much in the way of standards for what they'll publish. Occasionally it will be something good, much of the time its error-ridden, ignorant drek. Hrafn Talk Stalk 14:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I would like an external and disinterested opinion on three sites as they regard WP:RS and the reasons for and against
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex_mkp/ * http://forum.rickross.com/list.php?4 * http://www.houstonpress.com/ * http://wthrockmorton.com/ * http://adayinthelifeofalcoholanddrugrecovery.blogspot.com
Thank you in advance for any help that you may be. Rorybowman ( talk) 20:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I've been wondering if Astrology-online.com is enough of a reliable source per the requirements of Wikipedia, as it seems it often contradicts itself in its articles. I am asking this as there is some issue with an editor adding contradicting information from the website to the Wikipedia article, Aquarius (astrology). Could you guys take a look?
The article uses this source: http://www.astrology-online.com/aquarius.htm
Thanks, -- Nathanael Bar-Aur L. ( talk) 05:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate other editors reviewing this edit and the sources. I don't question the publishers reliability per se. I just don't see how the sources relate to what the Wikipedia article says. I've tried to explain myself on the talk page. -- Rob ( talk) 06:08, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
are the following sites reliable? GameFAQs, GameSpot, IGN, GameSpy, Game Rankings, GameZone. Gamespot has a lot of news on it. Ign, Gamespy/Rankings/Zone all have reviews. Gamefaqs has well written guides that serve as refs. answer on my talk page! Moogle 12 ( talk) 08:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm almost certain that this has been brought up before, but www.imdb.com - surely this is not a reliable source? IMDB (an open source website) republish information from anonymous users that is often wrong, and they don't cite their sources. I believe it is difficult, if not impossible, to get such errors in IMDB corrected.
Is there a specific guideline about this? The only thing I can find is here. I keep seeing www.imdb.com, and so think we need clearer guidance on its suitability. -- Jza84 | Talk 01:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
A Journal of Religion & Psychical Research review on World Scripture (a comparative anthology of scriptural quotes) is being used in the article on the book's author, Andrew Wilson (theologian). JoR&PR (now The Journal of Spirituality and Paranormal Studies) is published by the Academy of Spirituality and Paranormal Studies, Inc. and contains such articles as "Are Organ Transplants Metaphysically Contraindicated", "Posthumous Personality, Reincarnation and Liberation", & "Report about the Teleportation of a Living Person" (sample cover can be found here). Should it be considered a RS in this context? Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:47, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Here's what EBSCOhost (link may not work due to subscription requirements) says about it:
It's claimed by an independent third party, who specializes in the collection of academic journals, to be a peer reviewed publication, albeit in a niche field which does not require the rigors of the scientific method. On what basis is it not a reliable source? WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Jclemens ( talk) 05:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
WP:RS says that Google Scholar is a good way to judge hits. this search string Yields ~500 references to articles. Rabia Clark's review doesn't appear to be one of them, and she only gets 3 Google Scholar hits herself. Can someone with more experience in RS/N tell me whether this is good, bad, or ugly, given what EBSCOhost claims above? Jclemens ( talk) 19:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk 04:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Jclemens has stated his intention to ignore this consensus in this thread, on the flimsy basis that these sources are not being used "about" Wilson's book, but rather "about" what they said, and thus "about themselves" (per WP:SELFPUB). I have pointed out to him that this line of argument is tendentious. Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if we can get a ruling on weather or not Encyclopaedia of the Orient/LoolLex Encyclopdia is considered to be a reliable source or not. I don't know about all the issues, but regarding the Middle East issues, the enyclopedia looks very reliable and realistic. Chaldean ( talk) 15:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
sorry, but isn't that the same as Wikipedia, who checks the credentials of wiki editors? I am in Malaysia and travel to the Middle East frequently and agree with the above comment. I personally would consider it reliable. Agungsatu ( talk) 14:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering about the reliability of a mostly French-language website (with some English articles), Guysen News International. Has anyone heard of it before? A handful of Wikipedia articles link to it [10]. As far as I can make out, it seems to be a French-language, Middle East-focused equivalent of WorldNetDaily or FrontPage Magazine, i.e. essentially an outlet for commentary and opinion. -- ChrisO ( talk) 10:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
ChrisO, better take another look around the site. It is set up as a newspaper with news, editorials, political, society, cultural, sports, arts, religion, science and high tech, tourism and financials, and more. Each section seems to be updated daily. There is considerable local (Israeli) advertising for hotels and airlines and such. Not at all like WorldNetDaily or FrontPageMag. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 03:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Is the National Post considered a "tabloid"? It's a Canadian daily published in Toronto, and my impression is that it is a reliable media source, but I was wondering what others thought. ATren ( talk) 02:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm wondering if IRNA, the Islamic Republic News Agency, is considered a reliable source for news items outside of Iran. I believe that it is Iran's state-run media organization, so I'm unsure of how neutral it can be expected to be as a source. The specific article I'm looking at is here, though the question is a general one regarding its reliability as a news source for events outside of Iran. Thanks. ← George [ talk 04:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Personal blog by Raja Petra Kamaruddin. Is this personal blog reliable for biography for living people? It is a blog run by Malaysia's most famous conspiracy theorist, can this blog be used for reference for biography for living people?
the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy is run on a University of Tennesee website by James Fieser, Ph.D., founder and general editor and Bradley Dowden, Ph.D., general editor. It describes itself as "The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy is a non-profit organization run by the editors. The Encyclopedia receives no funding, and operates through the volunteer work of the editors, authors, and technical advisors." I have seen some good info and some questionable info, so thought I'd get others' opinions before either knocking it as a source or using it as a source. Carol Moore 01:25, 10 July 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
The article states that "tar-grouted macadam was also in use well before 1900". This goes against the general view that tarred roads did not really come into use until the turn of the 20th century with the advent of the motor car. Thus, I am challenging this statement.
Is site information from Alexa a reliable source? Discussion at Talk:Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain#Successors. -- Soman ( talk) 16:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
This particular user Travelling Tragition claims both in the edit summary of List of best-selling music artists and in her/his discussion page that she/he could include only the name of the source which does not seem to have a web site through help of which users could verify the record sales figures of the artist T-Rex. Travelling Tragition claims that non-internet sources published by reliable sources could be used. I believe we should use sources which immediately could redirect users to those reliable sources claiming those sales figures. -- Harout72 ( talk) 18:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to decide whether Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting would qualify as a valid source in the article on Jesse Helms. They seem to have a reputation for of being progressive and targeting right-leaning news bias, but they don't have a reputation for inaccuracy that I can see. There's one almost trivial thing in the "errors" section, and one would think if there were any substantial issues they would be widely publicized. However I want consensus whether it's acceptable for use on Wikipedia. -- TexasDex ★ 21:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that has thus far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic and commerce and interfere with other men's rights. -- television interview, 1963
More opinions please about this edit and this source. The author is a political scientist. This is a self-published source and my concern is that the author's normal area of research is into constitutional politics and the self-published document seems to be an isolated venture into a completely different sub-field of the discipline. The discussion on the article talk page is not just about whether the source is usable at all the in article but also about whether it supports a statement in the lead that the petition in question is "an appeal to authority". Itsmejudith ( talk) 09:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, now I'm starting to get worried about ID articles. Particularly after my experience with Jonathan Wells (intelligent design advocate) yesterday. Folks, you are killing the goose that has laid the golden eggs. Relata, Judith, and myself are all reasonable people, not Bible Belt nutters, and if we think something is wrong there's a good chance it is. Material such as "The Discovery Institute presents the list in an appeal to authority to support its anti-evolution viewpoint" is not only tautologous but also non-neutral, I'm afraid. Particularly when cited to this source, which isn't really good enough. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 18:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source for discussion of Sailor Moon? It seems to be, but one editor suggested that its being unauthorized might mean it requires an extra qualifier, "such as is done with Biographies to note 'so and so said...'". Any thoughts? -- Masamage ♫ 05:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
These interviews are self-promotional, and serve a public relations purpose. Whilst no doubt the statements are those of the people being quoted, the sources fail independence and lack journalistic rigor and cover matters which would be seen to be trivial by more reputable sources. [14] and [www.theonering.net]. The question came up after some source canvassing at The Hobbit (2009 film). -- Davémon ( talk) 18:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
A civil case was initiated in Queeensland, Australia in 2003. One of the respondents, a journalist, filed various affidavits. After losing the case and facing ruin, he filed a final affidavit with the court 16 months after the close of the case [17] disavowing his previous statements, including a feature length article in a reputable Sunday newspaper insert magazine, Good Weekend. The affidavit was accepted by a clerk, but presumably had no bearing on the case which had already closed. PDF of affidavit The claim is made in Wikipedia that the affidavit, in which he retracts all of this previous comments including the magazine article, invalidates the article he wrote even though the publisher never issued a retraction. PDF of article Editors would also like to use the affidavit as a source for the actions of 3rd parties, named and unnamed.
The case received some notice in the Australian press [18] and journalism circles, but the affadavit is not mentioned in any of the articles. The Queensland court does not have the documents online and charges a search fee of $12.50, a first page copy fee of $1.70, and $.50 for additional pages, plus postage. However the document is hosted on the website belonging to an American affiliate of the organization that brought the suit. [19] For a sample of the types of outrageous statements that affidavits in civil cases can include see The Smoking Gun website: [20]
In my opinion, the affidavit is an isolated primary source effectively available only from an unreliable, partisan source, and of questionable value since it was filed after the close of the case, was never reviewed in court, and has never been mentioned in any secondary source. It would not be an acceptable source for anything. Nor is it sufficient, in my opinion, to negate the magazine article published in a reliable source. Any other thoughts? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
talk) 02:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
On the Curse of Billy Penn, there was an unsourced reference to the gentlemen's agreement not to build any structure taller than the statue of William Penn on the top of the Philadelphia City Hall. An anonymous user recently posted a reference to a source that would take care of this problem ( [22]). However, in the course of correcting the format of the citation, I read the source page itself. The page is itself adapted from Wikipedia, and the Wikipedia article article on William Penn (on which the page is based) does not itself seem to have a source related to this Gentlemen's Agreement. Is it appropriate for a Wikipedia article to site as a source a website that itself references another Wikipedia article? Nutiketaiel ( talk) 11:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
In wandering around wiki I have noticed that there are editors claiming that MEMRI is an unreliable source, ( for example: [23]) and are using this archived discussion as justification. In reading the discussion I do not pick up a consensus to that effect, nor is there a "resolved" tag on it. Although criticism of MEMRI exists, that does not automatically make it unreliable, as for example we have a BBC Watch [24] which finds errors and bias in the BBC, and a similar site for the New York Times, ( ie Timewatch [25]); and while it speaks to controversy and POV issues neither have so far affected the reliability standard at Wiki for either the NY Times or the BBC. In thousands of translated articles there has only been a question on the exact translation of one or two words, one of which was in a written transcript and the other was a transcript taken from a film. In my view, this demonstrates a high degree of reliability. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Could you please source your contention that "there is a history of conscious tampering and misrepresentation of the original material"? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
There is consensus across several articles that advocacy organisations, of whatever bent, are best avoided as sources and are not reliable. If they reprint or extract material from otherwise reliable sources, those original sources are to be checked for accuracy of quotes and/or translation and to ensure that context is provided. MEMRI is not in any way singled out. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 18:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Clearly MEMRI DOES have a wide "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", except among those who do not like what they hear. If you claim otherwise, among other things, you are in the position of saying the NYT Times is unreliable or POV. BTW, WP in its wildest dreams would be lucky to have MEMRI's reputation for accuracy!
It is pretty commonly accepted that many media review organizations, such as MEMRI and FAIR ( Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting), are advocacy groups. Their reputation for accuracy and fact-checking varies widely depending on the particular group. Even the most accurate of such groups have a strong tendency to provide a very one-sided presentation of the facts and issues. They generally should not be used to cite bald assertions, but are certainly appropriate for representing their perspective. They should also be explicitly attributed in-prose when used. As examples, it would be appropriate to use MEMRI to represent the neocon perspective of the Middle East and similarly appropriate to use FAIR as representative of the progressive view of domestic U.S. politics. The presence of a point of view or bias in a source does not make it unreliable or unsuitable for use. However, some caution is required when using such sources to avoid inappropriate emphasis of those views. Vassyana ( talk) 02:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
The claim [above] that "MEMRI ...represent[s] the neocon perspective of the Middle East" is a bit delusional, unless actual translations/reality are deemed to represent the 'neo-con' view. MEMRI highlights material from both moderates and extremists [e.g. see "Reform"]. Aversion to using MEMRI must stem from an aversion to facing reality. Perhaps if wp editors didn't have an aversion to using reliable sources, wp would be more reliable. Bcdea ( talk) 14:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi all,
This has already been discussed before ( here), but at least one editor in an ongoing dispute does not believs the conclusion there to be significant ( here).
The question is, can Palestinian Media Watch be used as a reliable source regarding the opinion of Palestinians?
Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 17.07.2008 08:11
I've been tasked with finding the references for a pre-existing Cultural impact section. Now, I don't need to find them all - we can just delete things that prove impossible - but I would like to try and get all the prima facie notable ones referenced. I'll be honest, though, I have no idea what sort of standards television and film references are held to, nor where to look for this sort of thing. For instance, would this be a reliable source to show that the Animaniacs parodied H.M.S. Pinafore songs? Please help. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 05:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
is hollywoodreporter.com a reliable source for estimating hits/traffic to a website? this article [ [44]] claims millions of hits for the site in question "since 2002," but actual traffic estimation sites such as trafficestimate.com , www.quantcast.com, and complete.com claim vastly different estimates from one another. should hollywood reporter be used as a source for traffic data? Theserialcomma ( talk) 07:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Just need a pointer on something I'm sure I saw many moons ago about famous people expressing their points of view. It's pertaining to this thread here and the inclusion of non peer-reviewed and highly suspect science from someone who is not a physicist, and the only argument being noted for his inclusion is that he is in his own right notable as a biochemist. Where is the guideline on notable peoples thoughts with regards to controversial or fringe topics? Cheers Khu kri 14:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Currently, an editor has expanded this article: Massacres of Poles in Volhynia, using Stalinist Soviet and German Nazi sources that I find unreliable. Examples:
Whatever else, these are primary sources, and per WP:PSTS should not be used to make any controversial claims. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 06:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
This has probably been discussed before:
Is Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001 by Benny Morris a reliable source for historical facts? Bless sins ( talk) 23:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Is Christianity Today Magazine a reliable source on third parties? In particular is it a reliable source on Islamic countries, or citizens from Islamic countries? This shows that it is a non-objective source. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good resource for Christians and those seeking healing. But don't think its a good source for wikipedia. Bless sins ( talk) 00:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Biased sources are not equivalent to unreliable sources. While bias can obviously affect reliability, it is not a question that should be resolved by using other sources to disprove their points and cast them as "unreliable". That is an approach contrary to our only founding content principle: NPOV (see m:Foundation issues). Generally, the use of biased sources should be evaluated based on proper weight. For example, extremist sources are often considered unreliable, but the clearest (and most fundamental) principle excluding them from use is NPOV, which excludes extreme minority views. All that said, the reason question at hand in this case is whether or not the evangelical Christian perspective is significant enough for inclusion in the article in question. Vassyana ( talk) 18:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a local well-established newspaper serving a community of about 500,000 which sometimes (re-)publishes obits from major newspapers in other cities. My question is do I cite the local paper or do I cite the byline of the major paper listed with the obit even though I cannot provide details of issue or page if I use the latter ? Low Sea ( talk) 04:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
A better practice than citing the source you got it from is probably to cite both. Cite the original obit, followed by reprinted in "My Local Paper" on "This date", or something like that. I just seems to me you should actually credit the original publisher, and this makes it easier for someone to track down a copy. Someguy1221 ( talk) 04:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone tell if Daily Mail RS or not? May I use this paper as a RS for the article Durga Vahini? Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 11:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
How does the website www.gr-infos.com seem for information about the different French long-distance hiking trails? There is nothing on the website to say who authored it, but by the same token it doesn't seem to be promotional in any way (apart from generally promotional of hiking). I haven't spotted any errors on the site so far. Itsmejudith ( talk) 23:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
"
... Another phrase "So I herd u like mudkips," a reference to a sea creature from the popular animated show "Pokémon," spawned thousands of tribute videos on YouTube. ... viral phenomenon. Here's at a few of them: ... "so i herd u like mudkips": Originally posted on another Web site, members of 4chan adopted the phrase as in-joke. A "mudkip" is a lovable, water creature from the animated series Pokémon. You can watch some of the thousands of tribute videos on YouTube. ... " - WALL STREET JOURNAL - July 9, 2008 - Modest Web Site Is Behind a Bevy of Memes
I want to add that the phrase "So I herd u like mudkips" is considered a viral phenomenon by the WSJ to the article about the Pokemon Mudkip. But, an admin is saying I can't add it basically because
(a) information can't be sourced if it is not the main subject of the source article, and
(b) information must pass notability guidelines to be added to an article
Are these true? Here is the talk page with the argument. Habanero-tan ( talk) 02:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I have two questions about sources I wish to use in The Black Parade article. The first one is http://www.everyhit.com/index.html which is an archive of the Top 40 UK Charts. The other is http://swisscharts.com/index.asp which is a source for the Swiss Charts. I had originally obtained these sources from the Dookie featured article so I figured they'd be reliable to use but a concern was raised in the peer review that the sources are possibly not reliable. I wish to use these sources for their chart information in the article. Both are archives of past information. Orfen T • C 19:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Any takes on whether Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine is a reliable source for economic history in general or the thought of Milton Friedman in particular? Bkalafut ( talk) 07:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Is it a RS? Can links like [49] or [50] be trusted? Can be a referenced one like [51] be a RS? -- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 10:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd say it doesn't qualify as RS. As per the latter case, perhaps, pending that it can be reasonably asserted that the writer is the person that the website belongs to. -- Soman ( talk) 12:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
WP:SELFPUB is the applicable policy. It's simply a self-published web site. Web site providers are no more "sources" than word processor and editing tool providers. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 22:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I am having extreme difficulty with editor Ramu50. Several times now ( [52], [53], [54]) Ramu50 has deleted a simple statement of fact from this article, even though I provided [55] a reference the first time I restored it.
Ramu50 correctly pointed out [56] that that citation was difficult to reach (the ftp site required a login, although public credentials were provided elsewhere at [57], so I changed the cite [58] to point to an open ftp server with a copy of the document. Still, this seems to be not enough as this form of the cite was in the article when Ramu50 deleted it the third time (at least, I may have missed a few).
Ramu50 claims [59] that citing this document, even though it is the defining document of the article subject, is not sufficient and is "original research":
And let me ask you, is the primary document written by one author, yes it is. Just because it follows the association request doesn't mean it isn't one person viewpoint. One person viewpoint = original research.
(Well actually it's written by the T13 committee; edited by one person, but not written by one person.) In the same diff Ramu50 also says
Direct Quote doesn't mean anything, Wikipedia stated before that multiple statements from documents and adding your own conclusion is considered original research.
That would be a point if we were talking about "original synthesis". But I am not "adding my own conclusion". The specs expressly provide for solid state drives, they added the "CompactFlash Association feature set" expressly for support of certain aspects of solid state drives in ATA-4 (the earliest non-obsolete version):
6.13 CFA feature set: The CompactFlash Association (CFA) feature set provides support for solid state memory devices.
--from AT Attachment with Packet Interface Extension (ATA/ATAPI-4), section 6.13, page 36
There are many other details of the CFA feature set throughout that document and the later versions (ATA/ATAPI-5, etc.). And ever since ATA-2 (a much earlier, now obsolete version) they have also said
Traditionally, a device on the ATA interface has been a hard disk drive, but any form of storage device may be placed on the ATA interface provided it adheres to this standard.
--from AT Attachment Interface with Extensions (ATA-2), section 3.1.7, page 2
Ramu50 insists that these cites are not sufficient to support the notion that "solid state drives" are supported by ATA.
At one point Ramu50 added this confusing and completely unreferenced section to the article: [60]
Ramu50 generally writes in a very confusing (to me, anyway) style which has made discussion on the talk page strenuous to say the least. (And in Ramu50's most recent responses Ramu50 has rearranged my responses, removing them from context. My most recent changes before this "unfactoring" can be seen here: [61]) But as best as I can gather, Ramu50's contention that solid state drives either are not, should not, or are not "really" supported by ATA is based on poorly referenced claims that they are unreliable, or that nonvolatile memory is not really designed for being attached to an ATA cable, and that therefore the ATA documents should not or do not support them for legal or civil liability reasons. Ramu50 gives no evidence for this strange theory. There is weak evidence offered for unreliability but ATA documents do not include any requirements for reliability.
Ramu50 has also claimed [62] that solid state drives are only mentioned in the ATA documents due to "pressure" put on the ANSI T13 committee by the drive industry, but the only "evidence" Ramu50 offered for that claim was a "buyer's guide" dated 2003 (five years after ATA-4!) and a "Concept White Paper" on SSDs that said absolutely nothing to support such a claim.
I am aware that the ATA documents are a primary source here, but I believe that my citation meets the standards of WP:PRIMARY as I am not at all making an "interpretive claim." The issue in question is the issue of whether ATA supports solid state disk drives. The ATA documents (all versions ATA-4 and later, which is all non-obsolete versions) specifically make provisions for solid state drives and also allow them by inclusion as per the above quote frm ATA-2 ("any form of storage device"). I believe that any reasonable person, even not a subject matter expert, would agree that this supports the notion that solid state drives are supported by the ATA standards.
Please advise. -- Jeh ( talk) 09:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that this is the right place to make this comment, but it seems to me that there is simply no bases to deny that SSD drives comport to the AT Attachment. SSD drives can readily be purchased that represent themselves as comporting to the ATA interface or the IDE interface or the SATA interface, all of which are one form or another of the AT Attachment specification. A quick google search will provide many such vendors. I have looked at a few of Ramu50's edits and find them completely without justification. FWIW, I have 25+ years experience in various disk drive interfaces including attendance at many of the standards meetings that led to the various AT Attachment specifications. Hope this helps Tom94022 ( talk) 08:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Quite frankly this entire debate is extremely ridiculous. Ramu50 is being stubborn. Given that I can be quite stubborn myself, I know stubbornness when I see it. If specifications are not valid as sources when discussing those very same specifications, then nothing is a reliable source. This should go on Wikipedia's Lamest Edit Wars. -- M1ss1ontomars2k4 ( talk) 07:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I know WP:RS says that personal and group blogs are not allowed, but what about websites like Mashable? It's technically a blog, but it posts news about new web applications that I think would be beneficial to some articles. Thanks in advance. — Fatal Error 20:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
EDIT: I just thought of another one: TechCrunch. — Fatal Error 20:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Mashable describes itself as a blog: "Mashable ranks as one of the top 10 blogs in the world according to the blog search engine Technorati." The news items are submitted by anyone via email and the staff decides what to post, but there is no indication on the site of any fact checking or editorial oversite. It doesn't appear to be a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. Some blogs can be reliable, based on the qualifications of the person or editorial board at the helm, but Mashable doesn't appear to meet that standard. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 05:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I got what I need. Thanks for the input! — Fatal Error 21:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
In short: Would there be any objection to using as source: A statement from a reputable person on a subject, that has been broadcasted by a reputable station/network. If in the reference things like the title and date are included, and a direct quote. For a longer version with case specific context see: Talk:Thandie_Newton#place_of_birth. I have checked policies such as WP:V and WP:RS on it, but it doesn't seem to accurately cover the case. =Species8473= (talk) 21:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd be interested to hear peoples' thoughts on the reliability of citing non-English sources in the English Wikipedia, particularly when the full text of the article may be difficult to penetrate because of language differences. A good example is the following article in a Korean journal:
형성과정으로 본 태권도의 정체성에 관하여
허인욱
체육사학회지
2004년 1월, 14권
In English:
"A Study on the Shaping of Taekwondo"
by In Uk Heo
Korean Journal of History for Physical Education
2004, January, Volume 14, pp. 79-87
The journal article (PDF excerpt [63] available for IE) is scholarly and well footnoted, but it's written in Korean, a language I'm not conversant with. However, the author himself begins his paper with a three-paragraph abstract written in English which summarizes the paper's contents and conclusions. Would citing this source's abstract be acceptable? Elsewhere it was suggested that referring to this summary without first reading the entire text could be unacceptable; it seems to me that the summary (as part of the paper) is as citable as any other section within the source.
Just curious! Thanks for any opinions/feedback, Huwmanbeing ☀ ★ 16:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I am working on the Holland III page, and the one really good online reference (it was later printed as a book and sold) on the submarines of Holland is on a geocities page. Well, I added a cite to that, and a bot reverted me. I replaced the cite because I think it's appropriate, but thought I ought to ask if this is a 100% prohibition or not? Thank You. -- Betta Splendens ( talk) 17:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent)Here's what the site says about the book, in What's New: 14 July 2000 [67] : "A softcopy edition of this website was produced in time for the U.S. Submarine Force Centennial. It contains a short history of each of John Holland's submarines plus a detailed account of the Holland VI/USS Holland. The booklet is being sold through several outlets. The Electric Boat Fairwater Store added it to their website today." I don't think it's really necessary to verify that McCue the person whose existence can be verified from outside sources is the same as the website owner McCue, but the two books cited above do that, they associate McCue with the site. The additional association with Morris improves the site's credibility a lot, IMHO, so I think it stands as an RS on its own, better than just a convenience link. It came first, and then the book was created from it, and it has had further additions explained in the What's New section, although of course there is probably not much difference between the book and the site. If someone doesn't actually have the book in front of them, they should cite the site, not the book, whose existence should be noted though. If you do have the book in front of you, then my common sense says cite it if it has the material, and maybe link to the cite as a convenience link. John Z ( talk) 22:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Would we consider the product page in a store for an item a reliable source on the item's reported features, barring any other reliable source being available?-- Crossmr ( talk) 04:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Some think there is a problem of the Jewishness of sources [68]. I'm quite tired explaining WP policies in cases like this. And the tags apparently should be used this way [69], would love to respond to that, but sadly I can't, edit summary says "It's not my playground". Gotta believe the summary I guess. Summary knows the best. M0RD00R ( talk) 23:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone added this source to the article on Dollhouse (TV series), and I was a little skeptical of it.
http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/07/dollhouse-webis.html
What's the verdict?
Maratanos ( talk) 04:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Following discussion moved from Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability per Shirahadasha's suggestion. 206.248.134.130 ( talk) 07:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Can I get some opinions on this article? The subject is an acrimonious debate (want evidence? Talk:Linux/Name) and many of the sources on this page are either self-published (e.g. by Richard Stallman on the FSF's GNU website) or not even properly published but drawn from mailing list postings. The current argument seems to be that they are "experts" in their field. 76.10.148.211 ( talk) 17:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous user added this text into Sean Hannity article. I would like to know if Huffington Post is a reliable source and if the text can be included. Docku ( talk) 21:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Anyone have any opinions on whether Basic Books is considered a scholarly publisher? Satan's Silence is published by them and there's been a general disparagement on the satanic ritual abuse page of popular sources (i.e. non-scholarly press). WLU ( talk) 19:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I have used this a bit in the article on Plymouth, but I always try to find a more reliable source e.g. a book instead. It covers the history of Plymouth very well and it would be great, but I am unsure on its reliability. Some information on it is cited from reliable third party sources. The Plymouth City Council website quotes ""The encyclopaedia of Plymouth history" contains comprehensive content of high quality about all aspects of Plymouth. The site is compiled, maintained and regularly revised and added to by a Plymouth resident." Any feedback would be much appreciated. bsrboy ( talk) 16:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Why are we relying on what is essentially a one-person consulting business, especially since that person has neither scholarly nor journalistic credentials?
From the website of " Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance:"
Comments?-- Cberlet ( talk) 18:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
You know, sites and people can be reliable sources based upon demonstrated history of solid writing and research, and this site has it in spades. It's certainly far more of a reliable source than, say, news articles written by journalists who aren't experts or haven't even done much with a topic but were selected by their editor to write a story. There's been a pretty massive effort to try to get all mention of this site removed from Wikipedia, and primarily it seems to be led by editors who are opposed to the opinions expressed on the site and not for any question of its reliability on factual matters. The religious tolerance site is accepted by all sorts of sources everywhere as authoritative for the topics it covers, and when I have spotted errors at the site and let them know about it, they have been corrected. If you deem the site as unreliable then most other sites will be as well. If we move over to only accepted accredited scholars for any cite, then, sure, but since we're not at that level (and probably never will be), I can't see any Wikipedia-policy based reasons at all for why people are complaining about this site. DreamGuy ( talk) 18:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Right, it's time now to continue my move to have allmusic removed as a reliable source on heavy metal genres.
Previously when I put this forward, the general response was that regardless of what case could be made, it was no good without reliable sources to back it up. So since then I have gone and found such sources, with more to come in the future if necessary. So far I've made use of three significant sources, all published books: Ian Christe's "Sound of the Beast: A Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal" (which I still have yet to go through in true detail), Essi Berelian's "The Rough Guide to Heavy Metal" and Garry Sharpe-Young's "Metal: The Definitive Guide". In each of these books I have found direct quotes and statements that contradict allmusic and prove it's unreliability as a source. The Definitive Guide has proven particularly useful given it's bredth and detailed information on many bands.
Here are specific examples of the evidence gathered, kept in short language:
Agent Steel - allmusic: not thrash metal. Definitive Guide: thrash metal.
Annihilator - allmusic: "progressive metal". Definitive Guide: "power/thrash metallers", no mention of progressive, just technical (distinctly different).
Atomkraft - allmusic: no thrash tag. Definitive Guide: within the "thrash metal" section.
Chimaira - allmusic: "punk revival". Rough Guide: they are "modern metal with a dash of hardcore" and "progressive metalcore", with comparisons to Slayer. Definitive Guide: within its New Wave of American Heavy Metal section, which is specifically described as rooted in traditional metal "as opposed to punk roots".
Edguy - Allmusic: no power metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Edguy are a young power metal outfit".
Epica - allmusic: described solely as "progressive metal". Definitive Guide: clearly casts them as gothic metal ("Visionary goth-metal", "female-fronted gothic metal").
Godflesh - allmusic: "grindcore". Sound of the Beast: no where in the grindcore section, instead simply within the industrial metal one.
Grave Digger - allmusic: no thrash tag. Definitive Guide: described as "true survivors of the early-1980s German thrash metal scene", "lumped in with the emerging thrash acts of the day".
Hatebreed - allmusic: black/death metal. Definitive Guide: "a hardcore-influenced metal band", no mention of black or death metal.
Helloween - allmusic: thrash metal tag. Rough Guide: "power metallers", "power metal classics", "speedy metal", no mention of thrash. Definitive Guide: "A Hamburg power metal band", no mention of thrash.
Helstar - allmusic: "hardcore punk", no power metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Power/thrash metal", no mention of punk anywhere.
Kamelot - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: "Noted progressive metal", not black/death.
Katatonia - allmusic: no mention of their gothic style anywhere. Definitive Guide: "heavy gothic elements".
Killswitch Engage - allmusic: "power metal", "thrash metal" and "progressive metal". Rough Guide: "metalcore", none of the others mentioned. Definitive Guide: "Metalcore", none of the others mentioned.
Lacuna Coil - allmusic: "symphonic black metal". Rough Guide: No mention of black influence. Definitive Guide: placed in the gothic/prog/symphonic section, again black influence never mentioned.
Lamb of God - allmusic: just "black/death metal". Rough Guide: "elements of thrash, old school, hardcore punk and math metal", black/death never mentioned. Placed in the metalcore section. Definitive Guide: "metalcore scene leaders".
Massacre - allmusic: no death metal tag. Definitive Guide: "influential death metal pioneers".
Nevermore - allmusic: "alternative metal". Definitive Guide: "technical power metal".
Nightwish - allmusic: "symphonic black metal". Rough Guide: "gothic film-score metal", "combining progressive power metal, orchestral music and opera, with a strong element of drama and atmosphere". Definitive Guide: "Undoubtedly the foremost exponents of the operatic metal genre".
Powerman 5000 - allmusic: "heavy metal". Not mentioned in any of the sources at all.
Rammstein - allmusic: "progressive metal". Likewise, never mentioned, certainly not as progressive.
Razor - allmusic: no thrash metal tag. Definitive Guide: "A prolific thrash outfit known for their low-budget yet aggressive releases".
Reverend Bizarre - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: simply described as doom metal, no mention of black or death metal elements.
Saint Vitus - allmusic: among other genres, they're classed as "alternative pop/rock". Definitive Guide: Just pure doom in description, nothing along those lines.
Shadows Fall - allmusic: "punk metal". Definitive Guide: Like Chimaira, NWOAHM, and thus classed as having no punk roots.
Slammer - allmusic: no thrash metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Bradford thrash metal band".
Strapping Young Lad - allmusic: "punk metal" (among others). Definitive Guide: Doesn't outright contradict it, but no mention whatsoever of anything like this.
The Black Dahlia Murder - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: "metalcore act".
Theatre of Tragedy - allmusic: no mention of their later techno influences. Definitive Guide: The album Musique "jumping brazenly into techno-pop".
Trouble - allmusic: no mention at all of their stoner metal/rock style. Definitive Guide: "Stoner legends".
Within Temptation - allmusic: just "goth rock". Definitive Guide: "Gothic doom metal act".
Xentrix - allmusic: no "speed metal" tag. Definitive Guide: "a speed metal act".
Last, and most definitely not least, allmusic lumps black metal and death metal together as a single genre tag, something all three of these sources (and no doubt every single other reliable heavy metal source) do not do at all.
So there you have it. The case against allmusic. If even this is not enough, there are further sources that will, I'm sure, only back up my argument, and mass opinion could easily be added in if necessary. Also bear in mind that given the lack of published sources that distinctly lay out genres, there are likely many more classifications which published sources would contradict allmusic on, they are simply not stated outright. There are also many other classifications that can be challenged, but not so definitively, these are the most obvious.
In the face of this evidence contradicting their genre classifications, I see no reason whatsoever to consider allmusic one of Wikipedia's reliable sources for heavy metal genres. Prophaniti ( talk) 16:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Allow me to put it a little more directly: in light of all the evidence above, can anyone come up with a specific good reason to consider allmusic a reliable source on heavy metal genres? More to the point, until someone can provide real reasoning for why they should be considered a reliable source on heavy metal genres, I will take it as an accepted unreliable source and act accordingly. Prophaniti ( talk) 14:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Right, you need to read Wikipedia's policies on varifiability, personal attacks, civility, and original research. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, mass opinion is not a factor as it is neither reliable nor verifiable. People with experience will write an article about it. Second, again sources agreeing with each other means nothing. It's not uncommon for sources to do so. "Yes, we could put "power metal" into Killswitch Engage's info box. But their music doesn't fit the definition of power metal, as given by any reliable source." that's what I mean by original research. It's not our job to figure out which genre is true. BTW, when did I say that AM is right? 72.81.227.98 ( talk) 19:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
OK, here's a few observations, and hopefully this can be moved to another forum:
That is one of the things that makes them qualified,they are peer reviewed. The above evidence implies nothing. Again, we cannot tell which source is correct. 3 on 1 means nothing because none of the sources state the other as wrong, they merely have a different catagorization. Info boxes are NOT a one genre deal ever... you seem to think they are. Looking at a bands playing style and looking at a genre as described by a source and deciding that the band is not that genre is a violation of WP:OR.
"And while it might not be Wikipedia's job to figure out which is right all the time, it's still important. In some of the above cases, both genres can be incorporated. But in many, they can't. We have two directly conflicting sources, one has to be right, the other wrong. In these cases, it is our job to figure out which is wrong." Again that is false. Both genres can be put into the info box regardless of wheather the genres are similar. It's originale research that cannot be used. When you want to decide which genres to be in the info box you bring up the sources and decide via consensus which source should be used. You do not argue which genre they do or do not fit IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOURCE. And this should be done on the indevidual articles talk page. BTW, there is a Wikiproject heavy metal already. 72.81.227.98 ( talk) 00:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
First off, Prophaniti, you need to read WP:NPA. You've violated it a second time now. Continue to do so and you will be reported and likely blocked.
"As I have stated twice now, I fully understand that genre info boxes can have several categories in. But a lot of the above genre clashes are too direct, they cannot fit into the same box unless they describe different albums, which there's no indication they do." whether they come from 2 albums, or whether they clash or not is irrelevant. All we need to know is a source has stated them as such.
"Although I question whether it truly is original research given that it's based on published source's and their classifications of said genres..." again looking at a source for the description of genre X and listening to band Y and coming to the conclusion that band Y plays genre X is original research. If you don’t like this policy you have some options: 1) Ignore the policy and be blocked from editing wikipedia. or 2) Follow the policy. or 3) Try to change the policy on the relevant talk page. or 4) Stop editing wikipedia. Simple as that.
“If three sources vs. one means nothing when they clearly DO state the other is wrong…” no they do not. You seem to be dead set on a one genre to rule them all thing but no band is ever one genre only. Every song and every album differs down to the smallest detail. It is these differences that make more then one genre applicable.
Again what the mass opinion of a bands genre is, is irrelevant. Unless there is a source stating what a bands genre is, we don’t add it regardless of majority opinion.
“In addition, you admit that consensus is used to decide which source is used when there is a conflict: so you admit that general opinion does have an influence after all, and that is part of the argument: that in given conflicts, allmusic would lose every single one of the above examples, because they're accurate.” Nowhere did I say that general opinion has an influence on what genre the band plays. I said it is decided via consensus of the editors as to which sources for a genre to use. This is done NOT by arguing which genre the band sounds most like but rather the majority of verifiable sources. Indeed, if you were arguing this on a given bands article talk page, you’d likely succeed. Of course, this kind of thing is only done when the genre section gets too long, so as long as it’s 3 genres long, don’t expect to get very far on most bands articles. BTW, AM wouldn’t lose because the other sources are accurate, it would lose because there are more of them... granted print sources are usually NOT the best for this sort of thing.
“Also, I don't know where the "IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOURCE" point comes from, as I have got a source, that's rather the point.” You completely ignored my point with that. I was talking about individual band articles.
Regardless, this is something to take up on the wikiproject page, not here. 72.81.227.98 ( talk) 05:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Resolved tag added. Prophaniti ( talk) 09:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
We've got a discussion going on at the Latin American Britons talk page about the use of population estimates that are described by the source as "guesstimates". For me, there are two issues: firstly, are guesstimates suitable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article if they're labelled as such; and secondly, is the source reliable? Given that the estimates are so far off the 2001 Census figures, I'm doubtful about whether they're reliable. Cordless Larry ( talk) 10:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
At Talk:Plymouth#The_History_section_and_summary_style, User:Bsrboy has stated that he thinks that the snippets provided by Google Book Search can be considered reliable sources. I disagree, for the simple reason that there's insufficient context. I haven't found any discussion where a consensus opinion has emerged on this, so for the record I ask: Are Google Book Search snippet views (like these) reliable sources? Thanks, — SMALL JIM 16:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
This is the context for it:
During the English Civil War Plymouth sided with the Parliamentarians and so was isolated from the surrounding regions of Devon and Cornwall which were held by Royalist sympathisers. The town was besieged for almost four years until the Royalists were defeated. Various skirmishes and confrontations occurred, including the battle of St Budeaux and the rout of Royalist cavalry along Lipson Ridge. [1] [2] [3]
bsrboy ( talk) 20:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I've added another reference to it from the BBC. bsrboy ( talk) 10:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Is vevmo a reliable source for news pertaining to The Real World? I relied on this page for info on the cast for The Real World: Hollywood before mtv.com had any info on that cast, and almost everything about the entire cast turned out to be correct, right down to the identity of the two cast members who left the series close to the end of it, and the two new ones that replaced them. They even had headshots of the cast members. (To be fair, the hometowns of six of the nine cast members is different from the ones now given by mtv.com.) Someone even created a vevmo article, though it is currently the focus of an AfD discussion. While AfD pertains to notability, this page is for reliability. What do you think? Nightscream ( talk) 18:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Understood. Thanks. Nightscream ( talk) 06:28, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Once again, an editor is adding content to Play party based on his own personal experiences rather than any kind of reliable sources. Sources have been asked for for this content for years, and they just never emerge... and various editors seem to just re-add it or remove {{ fact}} tags endlessly. per WP:V the burden is on people wanting to restore content to find sources... they've literally had years here yet still it's restored without sources again and again despite being challenged. -- Rividian ( talk) 02:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Editors remove requests for sources [2] [3] from Ukrainization and Ukraine arguing that opinions for which sources were asked are "common knowledge" or "discouraging Russian is evidenced by the banning of Russian". What the correct action should be? -- windyhead ( talk) 08:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I believe the Great Wall of China Forum is a reliable source. It represents information, photos, and maps I have personally collected on-site at numerous Great Wall of China locations over the years as well as through research via the many books shown on the site. Just because I have chosen to present this information on a site that is a forum is not a good reason to exclude it from links sections. I have found that many of the Great Wall of China pages on Wikipedia (there are many) contain external links to sites that have incorrect information and those links remain while the Great Wall Forum has been deleted. There is a lot of misinformation on the Great Wall of China and not much high-quality information in English language available on the Internet. The site is non-profit, non-commercial, and advertising-free. It has information, maps, and other material that is not available anywhere else. Thanks, Bryanfeldman ( talk) 18:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Are these considered reliable sources? seresin ( ¡? ) 20:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Anyone can write for about.com and there is no fact checking or editorial oversight; it depends on whether the author meets WP:SPS as an expert. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I took another look, and , to my surprise, I think they are all 3 usable, with reservations, for most purposes. the Huffington Post is in my opinion as reliable for its signed stories as any conventionally published political newspaper or magazine. They are not contributed by just whoever wants to, like Wikinews. These are editorially selected, & include major essays by major writers. Arianna Huffington herself is an important political commentator, and what she writes can be cited --attributed to her of course. The commentary that miscellaneous people put in afterwards, that's another matter--that is not usable unless it happens to be from someone reliable. About.com has various parts. Some of the content from Wikipedia, but the other principle articles are made or at least screened by a selected list of contributors, who they claim to screen for expertise--read the article on it. It s furthermore published under the control of an undoubtedly reliable publisher, the NYT company--it's not a bunch of unscreened amateurs like here, though one does not know their actual standards. I would not automatically reject such content. I wouldn't use it for negative BLP, but that part does have editorial control and is therefore usable. Again, the stuff the readers write in as responses are another matter entirely. I havce been assuming its unreliable, but I think we need to take another look there. Gawker is a little trickier because of its subject specialization in celebrity gossip. But here again, the main items are under editorial control. The comments on the articles are like any other such comments. Using anything on a site like this for negative BLP is like using a tabloid. I'm not sure its worse than conventional tabloids, though. DGG ( talk) 04:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Agree completely with DGG. The level of ignorance as to these sources is surprising. Please try to do basic research before commenting. About.com selects for experts on all the publications that I've seen from it. I happen to read their economics blog a fair bit, written by an MBA school professor / economics consultant. The Huffington Post usually has tons of major names writing for them, and it would be perverse to assume that there is no editorial oversight -- when a news publication, especially a massively notable/influential one, publishes something, they try to keep a decent reputation up. Since they have expert columnists, they may give a fair amount of leeway. It really depends on the columnist -- the nice thing about the Huffington Post is that there is more emphasis on the columnists than you might see in your average newspaper, or especially the AP. For example, a glance at their recent Business posts shows a Wharton grad/former commodities trader, a VP of an investment fund, the executive director of the Sierra Club, and economics Nobel Laureate Gary Becker. Gawker is less reliabie, as you'd expect, and I expect the major things in there get repeated in more reputable publications. It's more like a tabloid (in the pejorative, rather than the format, sense). II 04:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context.
I agree that it depends (use common sense?). When I've seen people ask these real general questions about sources here, my first response has been "what is the context"? As far as the mother, she did write a book related to the subject, and some areas might lend themselves to a "mother's perspective". Apologies; I was inaccurate with regards to About.com: their information should be looked at as basically a SPS, since they basically give you a section and let you do what you want. The Huffington Post appears to be basically like a newspaper: they syndicate columnists and publish news; they have an editorial board, ect. II 06:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
An IP address editor has been deleting a series of website sources from the above article on the grounds that they are unreliable. One of the sources is directly copied from Saddam Hussein where presumably it was considered acceptable on a high profile article. The websites with the sources quote reputable newspapers/news agencies verbatim, but as they date from pre-internet days I can't find any first hand quotes and the subject is not extensively covered in readily available books. Could I have comments about whether these sources could be considered Reliable Sources. Ironically after deleting the sourced comments, the IP editor put up a notice about the lack of sources in the article. Dabbler ( talk) 00:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Is http://www.mania.com/ reliable? I'm not sure... Corn.u.co.pia ĐЌ Disc.us.sion 03:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
A user has been adding Turkey entries in many song-related articles using this site. Is the source reliable and is it the official chart of Turkey? Thank you. -- Efe ( talk) 12:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
This is something I thought would have been discussed before now & my apologies if a definitive answer has been given. (Attempting to search Wikipedia for the answer has brought up nothing on this.)
Is the website American Chronicle a reliable source? I ask this for two reasons: one is how an article from this site has been used in the article Ogaden National Liberation Front to introduce some information that I find definitely "iffy", writing from my experience in the area. (Had it appeared in another source, especially one I trusted, I would have given it the benefit of the doubt.) The other is that after studying the website, I find the following disclaimer:
The American Chronicle and its affiliates have no responsibility for the views, opinions and information communicated here.
The contributor(s) and news providers are fully responsible for their content.
In addition, the views and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of the American Chronicle or its affiliates.
So I could write an article about how I got cheated out of the 1938 Nobel Prize for medicine, & they'd publish it with that qualification? I'd assume that an undeniable requirement to be a reliable source is that it takes responsibility for what it prints. Any thoughts? -- llywrch ( talk) 19:47, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
My experience with the American Chronicle is that they don't have much in the way of standards for what they'll publish. Occasionally it will be something good, much of the time its error-ridden, ignorant drek. Hrafn Talk Stalk 14:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I would like an external and disinterested opinion on three sites as they regard WP:RS and the reasons for and against
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex_mkp/ * http://forum.rickross.com/list.php?4 * http://www.houstonpress.com/ * http://wthrockmorton.com/ * http://adayinthelifeofalcoholanddrugrecovery.blogspot.com
Thank you in advance for any help that you may be. Rorybowman ( talk) 20:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I've been wondering if Astrology-online.com is enough of a reliable source per the requirements of Wikipedia, as it seems it often contradicts itself in its articles. I am asking this as there is some issue with an editor adding contradicting information from the website to the Wikipedia article, Aquarius (astrology). Could you guys take a look?
The article uses this source: http://www.astrology-online.com/aquarius.htm
Thanks, -- Nathanael Bar-Aur L. ( talk) 05:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate other editors reviewing this edit and the sources. I don't question the publishers reliability per se. I just don't see how the sources relate to what the Wikipedia article says. I've tried to explain myself on the talk page. -- Rob ( talk) 06:08, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
are the following sites reliable? GameFAQs, GameSpot, IGN, GameSpy, Game Rankings, GameZone. Gamespot has a lot of news on it. Ign, Gamespy/Rankings/Zone all have reviews. Gamefaqs has well written guides that serve as refs. answer on my talk page! Moogle 12 ( talk) 08:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm almost certain that this has been brought up before, but www.imdb.com - surely this is not a reliable source? IMDB (an open source website) republish information from anonymous users that is often wrong, and they don't cite their sources. I believe it is difficult, if not impossible, to get such errors in IMDB corrected.
Is there a specific guideline about this? The only thing I can find is here. I keep seeing www.imdb.com, and so think we need clearer guidance on its suitability. -- Jza84 | Talk 01:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
A Journal of Religion & Psychical Research review on World Scripture (a comparative anthology of scriptural quotes) is being used in the article on the book's author, Andrew Wilson (theologian). JoR&PR (now The Journal of Spirituality and Paranormal Studies) is published by the Academy of Spirituality and Paranormal Studies, Inc. and contains such articles as "Are Organ Transplants Metaphysically Contraindicated", "Posthumous Personality, Reincarnation and Liberation", & "Report about the Teleportation of a Living Person" (sample cover can be found here). Should it be considered a RS in this context? Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:47, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Here's what EBSCOhost (link may not work due to subscription requirements) says about it:
It's claimed by an independent third party, who specializes in the collection of academic journals, to be a peer reviewed publication, albeit in a niche field which does not require the rigors of the scientific method. On what basis is it not a reliable source? WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Jclemens ( talk) 05:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
WP:RS says that Google Scholar is a good way to judge hits. this search string Yields ~500 references to articles. Rabia Clark's review doesn't appear to be one of them, and she only gets 3 Google Scholar hits herself. Can someone with more experience in RS/N tell me whether this is good, bad, or ugly, given what EBSCOhost claims above? Jclemens ( talk) 19:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk 04:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Jclemens has stated his intention to ignore this consensus in this thread, on the flimsy basis that these sources are not being used "about" Wilson's book, but rather "about" what they said, and thus "about themselves" (per WP:SELFPUB). I have pointed out to him that this line of argument is tendentious. Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if we can get a ruling on weather or not Encyclopaedia of the Orient/LoolLex Encyclopdia is considered to be a reliable source or not. I don't know about all the issues, but regarding the Middle East issues, the enyclopedia looks very reliable and realistic. Chaldean ( talk) 15:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
sorry, but isn't that the same as Wikipedia, who checks the credentials of wiki editors? I am in Malaysia and travel to the Middle East frequently and agree with the above comment. I personally would consider it reliable. Agungsatu ( talk) 14:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering about the reliability of a mostly French-language website (with some English articles), Guysen News International. Has anyone heard of it before? A handful of Wikipedia articles link to it [10]. As far as I can make out, it seems to be a French-language, Middle East-focused equivalent of WorldNetDaily or FrontPage Magazine, i.e. essentially an outlet for commentary and opinion. -- ChrisO ( talk) 10:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
ChrisO, better take another look around the site. It is set up as a newspaper with news, editorials, political, society, cultural, sports, arts, religion, science and high tech, tourism and financials, and more. Each section seems to be updated daily. There is considerable local (Israeli) advertising for hotels and airlines and such. Not at all like WorldNetDaily or FrontPageMag. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 03:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Is the National Post considered a "tabloid"? It's a Canadian daily published in Toronto, and my impression is that it is a reliable media source, but I was wondering what others thought. ATren ( talk) 02:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm wondering if IRNA, the Islamic Republic News Agency, is considered a reliable source for news items outside of Iran. I believe that it is Iran's state-run media organization, so I'm unsure of how neutral it can be expected to be as a source. The specific article I'm looking at is here, though the question is a general one regarding its reliability as a news source for events outside of Iran. Thanks. ← George [ talk 04:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Personal blog by Raja Petra Kamaruddin. Is this personal blog reliable for biography for living people? It is a blog run by Malaysia's most famous conspiracy theorist, can this blog be used for reference for biography for living people?
the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy is run on a University of Tennesee website by James Fieser, Ph.D., founder and general editor and Bradley Dowden, Ph.D., general editor. It describes itself as "The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy is a non-profit organization run by the editors. The Encyclopedia receives no funding, and operates through the volunteer work of the editors, authors, and technical advisors." I have seen some good info and some questionable info, so thought I'd get others' opinions before either knocking it as a source or using it as a source. Carol Moore 01:25, 10 July 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
The article states that "tar-grouted macadam was also in use well before 1900". This goes against the general view that tarred roads did not really come into use until the turn of the 20th century with the advent of the motor car. Thus, I am challenging this statement.
Is site information from Alexa a reliable source? Discussion at Talk:Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain#Successors. -- Soman ( talk) 16:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
This particular user Travelling Tragition claims both in the edit summary of List of best-selling music artists and in her/his discussion page that she/he could include only the name of the source which does not seem to have a web site through help of which users could verify the record sales figures of the artist T-Rex. Travelling Tragition claims that non-internet sources published by reliable sources could be used. I believe we should use sources which immediately could redirect users to those reliable sources claiming those sales figures. -- Harout72 ( talk) 18:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to decide whether Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting would qualify as a valid source in the article on Jesse Helms. They seem to have a reputation for of being progressive and targeting right-leaning news bias, but they don't have a reputation for inaccuracy that I can see. There's one almost trivial thing in the "errors" section, and one would think if there were any substantial issues they would be widely publicized. However I want consensus whether it's acceptable for use on Wikipedia. -- TexasDex ★ 21:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that has thus far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic and commerce and interfere with other men's rights. -- television interview, 1963
More opinions please about this edit and this source. The author is a political scientist. This is a self-published source and my concern is that the author's normal area of research is into constitutional politics and the self-published document seems to be an isolated venture into a completely different sub-field of the discipline. The discussion on the article talk page is not just about whether the source is usable at all the in article but also about whether it supports a statement in the lead that the petition in question is "an appeal to authority". Itsmejudith ( talk) 09:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, now I'm starting to get worried about ID articles. Particularly after my experience with Jonathan Wells (intelligent design advocate) yesterday. Folks, you are killing the goose that has laid the golden eggs. Relata, Judith, and myself are all reasonable people, not Bible Belt nutters, and if we think something is wrong there's a good chance it is. Material such as "The Discovery Institute presents the list in an appeal to authority to support its anti-evolution viewpoint" is not only tautologous but also non-neutral, I'm afraid. Particularly when cited to this source, which isn't really good enough. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 18:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source for discussion of Sailor Moon? It seems to be, but one editor suggested that its being unauthorized might mean it requires an extra qualifier, "such as is done with Biographies to note 'so and so said...'". Any thoughts? -- Masamage ♫ 05:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
These interviews are self-promotional, and serve a public relations purpose. Whilst no doubt the statements are those of the people being quoted, the sources fail independence and lack journalistic rigor and cover matters which would be seen to be trivial by more reputable sources. [14] and [www.theonering.net]. The question came up after some source canvassing at The Hobbit (2009 film). -- Davémon ( talk) 18:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
A civil case was initiated in Queeensland, Australia in 2003. One of the respondents, a journalist, filed various affidavits. After losing the case and facing ruin, he filed a final affidavit with the court 16 months after the close of the case [17] disavowing his previous statements, including a feature length article in a reputable Sunday newspaper insert magazine, Good Weekend. The affidavit was accepted by a clerk, but presumably had no bearing on the case which had already closed. PDF of affidavit The claim is made in Wikipedia that the affidavit, in which he retracts all of this previous comments including the magazine article, invalidates the article he wrote even though the publisher never issued a retraction. PDF of article Editors would also like to use the affidavit as a source for the actions of 3rd parties, named and unnamed.
The case received some notice in the Australian press [18] and journalism circles, but the affadavit is not mentioned in any of the articles. The Queensland court does not have the documents online and charges a search fee of $12.50, a first page copy fee of $1.70, and $.50 for additional pages, plus postage. However the document is hosted on the website belonging to an American affiliate of the organization that brought the suit. [19] For a sample of the types of outrageous statements that affidavits in civil cases can include see The Smoking Gun website: [20]
In my opinion, the affidavit is an isolated primary source effectively available only from an unreliable, partisan source, and of questionable value since it was filed after the close of the case, was never reviewed in court, and has never been mentioned in any secondary source. It would not be an acceptable source for anything. Nor is it sufficient, in my opinion, to negate the magazine article published in a reliable source. Any other thoughts? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
talk) 02:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
On the Curse of Billy Penn, there was an unsourced reference to the gentlemen's agreement not to build any structure taller than the statue of William Penn on the top of the Philadelphia City Hall. An anonymous user recently posted a reference to a source that would take care of this problem ( [22]). However, in the course of correcting the format of the citation, I read the source page itself. The page is itself adapted from Wikipedia, and the Wikipedia article article on William Penn (on which the page is based) does not itself seem to have a source related to this Gentlemen's Agreement. Is it appropriate for a Wikipedia article to site as a source a website that itself references another Wikipedia article? Nutiketaiel ( talk) 11:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
In wandering around wiki I have noticed that there are editors claiming that MEMRI is an unreliable source, ( for example: [23]) and are using this archived discussion as justification. In reading the discussion I do not pick up a consensus to that effect, nor is there a "resolved" tag on it. Although criticism of MEMRI exists, that does not automatically make it unreliable, as for example we have a BBC Watch [24] which finds errors and bias in the BBC, and a similar site for the New York Times, ( ie Timewatch [25]); and while it speaks to controversy and POV issues neither have so far affected the reliability standard at Wiki for either the NY Times or the BBC. In thousands of translated articles there has only been a question on the exact translation of one or two words, one of which was in a written transcript and the other was a transcript taken from a film. In my view, this demonstrates a high degree of reliability. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Could you please source your contention that "there is a history of conscious tampering and misrepresentation of the original material"? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
There is consensus across several articles that advocacy organisations, of whatever bent, are best avoided as sources and are not reliable. If they reprint or extract material from otherwise reliable sources, those original sources are to be checked for accuracy of quotes and/or translation and to ensure that context is provided. MEMRI is not in any way singled out. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 18:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Clearly MEMRI DOES have a wide "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", except among those who do not like what they hear. If you claim otherwise, among other things, you are in the position of saying the NYT Times is unreliable or POV. BTW, WP in its wildest dreams would be lucky to have MEMRI's reputation for accuracy!
It is pretty commonly accepted that many media review organizations, such as MEMRI and FAIR ( Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting), are advocacy groups. Their reputation for accuracy and fact-checking varies widely depending on the particular group. Even the most accurate of such groups have a strong tendency to provide a very one-sided presentation of the facts and issues. They generally should not be used to cite bald assertions, but are certainly appropriate for representing their perspective. They should also be explicitly attributed in-prose when used. As examples, it would be appropriate to use MEMRI to represent the neocon perspective of the Middle East and similarly appropriate to use FAIR as representative of the progressive view of domestic U.S. politics. The presence of a point of view or bias in a source does not make it unreliable or unsuitable for use. However, some caution is required when using such sources to avoid inappropriate emphasis of those views. Vassyana ( talk) 02:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
The claim [above] that "MEMRI ...represent[s] the neocon perspective of the Middle East" is a bit delusional, unless actual translations/reality are deemed to represent the 'neo-con' view. MEMRI highlights material from both moderates and extremists [e.g. see "Reform"]. Aversion to using MEMRI must stem from an aversion to facing reality. Perhaps if wp editors didn't have an aversion to using reliable sources, wp would be more reliable. Bcdea ( talk) 14:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi all,
This has already been discussed before ( here), but at least one editor in an ongoing dispute does not believs the conclusion there to be significant ( here).
The question is, can Palestinian Media Watch be used as a reliable source regarding the opinion of Palestinians?
Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 17.07.2008 08:11
I've been tasked with finding the references for a pre-existing Cultural impact section. Now, I don't need to find them all - we can just delete things that prove impossible - but I would like to try and get all the prima facie notable ones referenced. I'll be honest, though, I have no idea what sort of standards television and film references are held to, nor where to look for this sort of thing. For instance, would this be a reliable source to show that the Animaniacs parodied H.M.S. Pinafore songs? Please help. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 05:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
is hollywoodreporter.com a reliable source for estimating hits/traffic to a website? this article [ [44]] claims millions of hits for the site in question "since 2002," but actual traffic estimation sites such as trafficestimate.com , www.quantcast.com, and complete.com claim vastly different estimates from one another. should hollywood reporter be used as a source for traffic data? Theserialcomma ( talk) 07:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Just need a pointer on something I'm sure I saw many moons ago about famous people expressing their points of view. It's pertaining to this thread here and the inclusion of non peer-reviewed and highly suspect science from someone who is not a physicist, and the only argument being noted for his inclusion is that he is in his own right notable as a biochemist. Where is the guideline on notable peoples thoughts with regards to controversial or fringe topics? Cheers Khu kri 14:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Currently, an editor has expanded this article: Massacres of Poles in Volhynia, using Stalinist Soviet and German Nazi sources that I find unreliable. Examples:
Whatever else, these are primary sources, and per WP:PSTS should not be used to make any controversial claims. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 06:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
This has probably been discussed before:
Is Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001 by Benny Morris a reliable source for historical facts? Bless sins ( talk) 23:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Is Christianity Today Magazine a reliable source on third parties? In particular is it a reliable source on Islamic countries, or citizens from Islamic countries? This shows that it is a non-objective source. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good resource for Christians and those seeking healing. But don't think its a good source for wikipedia. Bless sins ( talk) 00:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Biased sources are not equivalent to unreliable sources. While bias can obviously affect reliability, it is not a question that should be resolved by using other sources to disprove their points and cast them as "unreliable". That is an approach contrary to our only founding content principle: NPOV (see m:Foundation issues). Generally, the use of biased sources should be evaluated based on proper weight. For example, extremist sources are often considered unreliable, but the clearest (and most fundamental) principle excluding them from use is NPOV, which excludes extreme minority views. All that said, the reason question at hand in this case is whether or not the evangelical Christian perspective is significant enough for inclusion in the article in question. Vassyana ( talk) 18:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a local well-established newspaper serving a community of about 500,000 which sometimes (re-)publishes obits from major newspapers in other cities. My question is do I cite the local paper or do I cite the byline of the major paper listed with the obit even though I cannot provide details of issue or page if I use the latter ? Low Sea ( talk) 04:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
A better practice than citing the source you got it from is probably to cite both. Cite the original obit, followed by reprinted in "My Local Paper" on "This date", or something like that. I just seems to me you should actually credit the original publisher, and this makes it easier for someone to track down a copy. Someguy1221 ( talk) 04:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone tell if Daily Mail RS or not? May I use this paper as a RS for the article Durga Vahini? Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 11:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
How does the website www.gr-infos.com seem for information about the different French long-distance hiking trails? There is nothing on the website to say who authored it, but by the same token it doesn't seem to be promotional in any way (apart from generally promotional of hiking). I haven't spotted any errors on the site so far. Itsmejudith ( talk) 23:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
"
... Another phrase "So I herd u like mudkips," a reference to a sea creature from the popular animated show "Pokémon," spawned thousands of tribute videos on YouTube. ... viral phenomenon. Here's at a few of them: ... "so i herd u like mudkips": Originally posted on another Web site, members of 4chan adopted the phrase as in-joke. A "mudkip" is a lovable, water creature from the animated series Pokémon. You can watch some of the thousands of tribute videos on YouTube. ... " - WALL STREET JOURNAL - July 9, 2008 - Modest Web Site Is Behind a Bevy of Memes
I want to add that the phrase "So I herd u like mudkips" is considered a viral phenomenon by the WSJ to the article about the Pokemon Mudkip. But, an admin is saying I can't add it basically because
(a) information can't be sourced if it is not the main subject of the source article, and
(b) information must pass notability guidelines to be added to an article
Are these true? Here is the talk page with the argument. Habanero-tan ( talk) 02:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I have two questions about sources I wish to use in The Black Parade article. The first one is http://www.everyhit.com/index.html which is an archive of the Top 40 UK Charts. The other is http://swisscharts.com/index.asp which is a source for the Swiss Charts. I had originally obtained these sources from the Dookie featured article so I figured they'd be reliable to use but a concern was raised in the peer review that the sources are possibly not reliable. I wish to use these sources for their chart information in the article. Both are archives of past information. Orfen T • C 19:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Any takes on whether Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine is a reliable source for economic history in general or the thought of Milton Friedman in particular? Bkalafut ( talk) 07:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Is it a RS? Can links like [49] or [50] be trusted? Can be a referenced one like [51] be a RS? -- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 10:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd say it doesn't qualify as RS. As per the latter case, perhaps, pending that it can be reasonably asserted that the writer is the person that the website belongs to. -- Soman ( talk) 12:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
WP:SELFPUB is the applicable policy. It's simply a self-published web site. Web site providers are no more "sources" than word processor and editing tool providers. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 22:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I am having extreme difficulty with editor Ramu50. Several times now ( [52], [53], [54]) Ramu50 has deleted a simple statement of fact from this article, even though I provided [55] a reference the first time I restored it.
Ramu50 correctly pointed out [56] that that citation was difficult to reach (the ftp site required a login, although public credentials were provided elsewhere at [57], so I changed the cite [58] to point to an open ftp server with a copy of the document. Still, this seems to be not enough as this form of the cite was in the article when Ramu50 deleted it the third time (at least, I may have missed a few).
Ramu50 claims [59] that citing this document, even though it is the defining document of the article subject, is not sufficient and is "original research":
And let me ask you, is the primary document written by one author, yes it is. Just because it follows the association request doesn't mean it isn't one person viewpoint. One person viewpoint = original research.
(Well actually it's written by the T13 committee; edited by one person, but not written by one person.) In the same diff Ramu50 also says
Direct Quote doesn't mean anything, Wikipedia stated before that multiple statements from documents and adding your own conclusion is considered original research.
That would be a point if we were talking about "original synthesis". But I am not "adding my own conclusion". The specs expressly provide for solid state drives, they added the "CompactFlash Association feature set" expressly for support of certain aspects of solid state drives in ATA-4 (the earliest non-obsolete version):
6.13 CFA feature set: The CompactFlash Association (CFA) feature set provides support for solid state memory devices.
--from AT Attachment with Packet Interface Extension (ATA/ATAPI-4), section 6.13, page 36
There are many other details of the CFA feature set throughout that document and the later versions (ATA/ATAPI-5, etc.). And ever since ATA-2 (a much earlier, now obsolete version) they have also said
Traditionally, a device on the ATA interface has been a hard disk drive, but any form of storage device may be placed on the ATA interface provided it adheres to this standard.
--from AT Attachment Interface with Extensions (ATA-2), section 3.1.7, page 2
Ramu50 insists that these cites are not sufficient to support the notion that "solid state drives" are supported by ATA.
At one point Ramu50 added this confusing and completely unreferenced section to the article: [60]
Ramu50 generally writes in a very confusing (to me, anyway) style which has made discussion on the talk page strenuous to say the least. (And in Ramu50's most recent responses Ramu50 has rearranged my responses, removing them from context. My most recent changes before this "unfactoring" can be seen here: [61]) But as best as I can gather, Ramu50's contention that solid state drives either are not, should not, or are not "really" supported by ATA is based on poorly referenced claims that they are unreliable, or that nonvolatile memory is not really designed for being attached to an ATA cable, and that therefore the ATA documents should not or do not support them for legal or civil liability reasons. Ramu50 gives no evidence for this strange theory. There is weak evidence offered for unreliability but ATA documents do not include any requirements for reliability.
Ramu50 has also claimed [62] that solid state drives are only mentioned in the ATA documents due to "pressure" put on the ANSI T13 committee by the drive industry, but the only "evidence" Ramu50 offered for that claim was a "buyer's guide" dated 2003 (five years after ATA-4!) and a "Concept White Paper" on SSDs that said absolutely nothing to support such a claim.
I am aware that the ATA documents are a primary source here, but I believe that my citation meets the standards of WP:PRIMARY as I am not at all making an "interpretive claim." The issue in question is the issue of whether ATA supports solid state disk drives. The ATA documents (all versions ATA-4 and later, which is all non-obsolete versions) specifically make provisions for solid state drives and also allow them by inclusion as per the above quote frm ATA-2 ("any form of storage device"). I believe that any reasonable person, even not a subject matter expert, would agree that this supports the notion that solid state drives are supported by the ATA standards.
Please advise. -- Jeh ( talk) 09:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that this is the right place to make this comment, but it seems to me that there is simply no bases to deny that SSD drives comport to the AT Attachment. SSD drives can readily be purchased that represent themselves as comporting to the ATA interface or the IDE interface or the SATA interface, all of which are one form or another of the AT Attachment specification. A quick google search will provide many such vendors. I have looked at a few of Ramu50's edits and find them completely without justification. FWIW, I have 25+ years experience in various disk drive interfaces including attendance at many of the standards meetings that led to the various AT Attachment specifications. Hope this helps Tom94022 ( talk) 08:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Quite frankly this entire debate is extremely ridiculous. Ramu50 is being stubborn. Given that I can be quite stubborn myself, I know stubbornness when I see it. If specifications are not valid as sources when discussing those very same specifications, then nothing is a reliable source. This should go on Wikipedia's Lamest Edit Wars. -- M1ss1ontomars2k4 ( talk) 07:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I know WP:RS says that personal and group blogs are not allowed, but what about websites like Mashable? It's technically a blog, but it posts news about new web applications that I think would be beneficial to some articles. Thanks in advance. — Fatal Error 20:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
EDIT: I just thought of another one: TechCrunch. — Fatal Error 20:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Mashable describes itself as a blog: "Mashable ranks as one of the top 10 blogs in the world according to the blog search engine Technorati." The news items are submitted by anyone via email and the staff decides what to post, but there is no indication on the site of any fact checking or editorial oversite. It doesn't appear to be a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. Some blogs can be reliable, based on the qualifications of the person or editorial board at the helm, but Mashable doesn't appear to meet that standard. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 05:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I got what I need. Thanks for the input! — Fatal Error 21:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
In short: Would there be any objection to using as source: A statement from a reputable person on a subject, that has been broadcasted by a reputable station/network. If in the reference things like the title and date are included, and a direct quote. For a longer version with case specific context see: Talk:Thandie_Newton#place_of_birth. I have checked policies such as WP:V and WP:RS on it, but it doesn't seem to accurately cover the case. =Species8473= (talk) 21:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd be interested to hear peoples' thoughts on the reliability of citing non-English sources in the English Wikipedia, particularly when the full text of the article may be difficult to penetrate because of language differences. A good example is the following article in a Korean journal:
형성과정으로 본 태권도의 정체성에 관하여
허인욱
체육사학회지
2004년 1월, 14권
In English:
"A Study on the Shaping of Taekwondo"
by In Uk Heo
Korean Journal of History for Physical Education
2004, January, Volume 14, pp. 79-87
The journal article (PDF excerpt [63] available for IE) is scholarly and well footnoted, but it's written in Korean, a language I'm not conversant with. However, the author himself begins his paper with a three-paragraph abstract written in English which summarizes the paper's contents and conclusions. Would citing this source's abstract be acceptable? Elsewhere it was suggested that referring to this summary without first reading the entire text could be unacceptable; it seems to me that the summary (as part of the paper) is as citable as any other section within the source.
Just curious! Thanks for any opinions/feedback, Huwmanbeing ☀ ★ 16:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I am working on the Holland III page, and the one really good online reference (it was later printed as a book and sold) on the submarines of Holland is on a geocities page. Well, I added a cite to that, and a bot reverted me. I replaced the cite because I think it's appropriate, but thought I ought to ask if this is a 100% prohibition or not? Thank You. -- Betta Splendens ( talk) 17:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent)Here's what the site says about the book, in What's New: 14 July 2000 [67] : "A softcopy edition of this website was produced in time for the U.S. Submarine Force Centennial. It contains a short history of each of John Holland's submarines plus a detailed account of the Holland VI/USS Holland. The booklet is being sold through several outlets. The Electric Boat Fairwater Store added it to their website today." I don't think it's really necessary to verify that McCue the person whose existence can be verified from outside sources is the same as the website owner McCue, but the two books cited above do that, they associate McCue with the site. The additional association with Morris improves the site's credibility a lot, IMHO, so I think it stands as an RS on its own, better than just a convenience link. It came first, and then the book was created from it, and it has had further additions explained in the What's New section, although of course there is probably not much difference between the book and the site. If someone doesn't actually have the book in front of them, they should cite the site, not the book, whose existence should be noted though. If you do have the book in front of you, then my common sense says cite it if it has the material, and maybe link to the cite as a convenience link. John Z ( talk) 22:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Would we consider the product page in a store for an item a reliable source on the item's reported features, barring any other reliable source being available?-- Crossmr ( talk) 04:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Some think there is a problem of the Jewishness of sources [68]. I'm quite tired explaining WP policies in cases like this. And the tags apparently should be used this way [69], would love to respond to that, but sadly I can't, edit summary says "It's not my playground". Gotta believe the summary I guess. Summary knows the best. M0RD00R ( talk) 23:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone added this source to the article on Dollhouse (TV series), and I was a little skeptical of it.
http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/07/dollhouse-webis.html
What's the verdict?
Maratanos ( talk) 04:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Following discussion moved from Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability per Shirahadasha's suggestion. 206.248.134.130 ( talk) 07:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Can I get some opinions on this article? The subject is an acrimonious debate (want evidence? Talk:Linux/Name) and many of the sources on this page are either self-published (e.g. by Richard Stallman on the FSF's GNU website) or not even properly published but drawn from mailing list postings. The current argument seems to be that they are "experts" in their field. 76.10.148.211 ( talk) 17:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous user added this text into Sean Hannity article. I would like to know if Huffington Post is a reliable source and if the text can be included. Docku ( talk) 21:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Anyone have any opinions on whether Basic Books is considered a scholarly publisher? Satan's Silence is published by them and there's been a general disparagement on the satanic ritual abuse page of popular sources (i.e. non-scholarly press). WLU ( talk) 19:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I have used this a bit in the article on Plymouth, but I always try to find a more reliable source e.g. a book instead. It covers the history of Plymouth very well and it would be great, but I am unsure on its reliability. Some information on it is cited from reliable third party sources. The Plymouth City Council website quotes ""The encyclopaedia of Plymouth history" contains comprehensive content of high quality about all aspects of Plymouth. The site is compiled, maintained and regularly revised and added to by a Plymouth resident." Any feedback would be much appreciated. bsrboy ( talk) 16:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Why are we relying on what is essentially a one-person consulting business, especially since that person has neither scholarly nor journalistic credentials?
From the website of " Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance:"
Comments?-- Cberlet ( talk) 18:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
You know, sites and people can be reliable sources based upon demonstrated history of solid writing and research, and this site has it in spades. It's certainly far more of a reliable source than, say, news articles written by journalists who aren't experts or haven't even done much with a topic but were selected by their editor to write a story. There's been a pretty massive effort to try to get all mention of this site removed from Wikipedia, and primarily it seems to be led by editors who are opposed to the opinions expressed on the site and not for any question of its reliability on factual matters. The religious tolerance site is accepted by all sorts of sources everywhere as authoritative for the topics it covers, and when I have spotted errors at the site and let them know about it, they have been corrected. If you deem the site as unreliable then most other sites will be as well. If we move over to only accepted accredited scholars for any cite, then, sure, but since we're not at that level (and probably never will be), I can't see any Wikipedia-policy based reasons at all for why people are complaining about this site. DreamGuy ( talk) 18:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Right, it's time now to continue my move to have allmusic removed as a reliable source on heavy metal genres.
Previously when I put this forward, the general response was that regardless of what case could be made, it was no good without reliable sources to back it up. So since then I have gone and found such sources, with more to come in the future if necessary. So far I've made use of three significant sources, all published books: Ian Christe's "Sound of the Beast: A Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal" (which I still have yet to go through in true detail), Essi Berelian's "The Rough Guide to Heavy Metal" and Garry Sharpe-Young's "Metal: The Definitive Guide". In each of these books I have found direct quotes and statements that contradict allmusic and prove it's unreliability as a source. The Definitive Guide has proven particularly useful given it's bredth and detailed information on many bands.
Here are specific examples of the evidence gathered, kept in short language:
Agent Steel - allmusic: not thrash metal. Definitive Guide: thrash metal.
Annihilator - allmusic: "progressive metal". Definitive Guide: "power/thrash metallers", no mention of progressive, just technical (distinctly different).
Atomkraft - allmusic: no thrash tag. Definitive Guide: within the "thrash metal" section.
Chimaira - allmusic: "punk revival". Rough Guide: they are "modern metal with a dash of hardcore" and "progressive metalcore", with comparisons to Slayer. Definitive Guide: within its New Wave of American Heavy Metal section, which is specifically described as rooted in traditional metal "as opposed to punk roots".
Edguy - Allmusic: no power metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Edguy are a young power metal outfit".
Epica - allmusic: described solely as "progressive metal". Definitive Guide: clearly casts them as gothic metal ("Visionary goth-metal", "female-fronted gothic metal").
Godflesh - allmusic: "grindcore". Sound of the Beast: no where in the grindcore section, instead simply within the industrial metal one.
Grave Digger - allmusic: no thrash tag. Definitive Guide: described as "true survivors of the early-1980s German thrash metal scene", "lumped in with the emerging thrash acts of the day".
Hatebreed - allmusic: black/death metal. Definitive Guide: "a hardcore-influenced metal band", no mention of black or death metal.
Helloween - allmusic: thrash metal tag. Rough Guide: "power metallers", "power metal classics", "speedy metal", no mention of thrash. Definitive Guide: "A Hamburg power metal band", no mention of thrash.
Helstar - allmusic: "hardcore punk", no power metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Power/thrash metal", no mention of punk anywhere.
Kamelot - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: "Noted progressive metal", not black/death.
Katatonia - allmusic: no mention of their gothic style anywhere. Definitive Guide: "heavy gothic elements".
Killswitch Engage - allmusic: "power metal", "thrash metal" and "progressive metal". Rough Guide: "metalcore", none of the others mentioned. Definitive Guide: "Metalcore", none of the others mentioned.
Lacuna Coil - allmusic: "symphonic black metal". Rough Guide: No mention of black influence. Definitive Guide: placed in the gothic/prog/symphonic section, again black influence never mentioned.
Lamb of God - allmusic: just "black/death metal". Rough Guide: "elements of thrash, old school, hardcore punk and math metal", black/death never mentioned. Placed in the metalcore section. Definitive Guide: "metalcore scene leaders".
Massacre - allmusic: no death metal tag. Definitive Guide: "influential death metal pioneers".
Nevermore - allmusic: "alternative metal". Definitive Guide: "technical power metal".
Nightwish - allmusic: "symphonic black metal". Rough Guide: "gothic film-score metal", "combining progressive power metal, orchestral music and opera, with a strong element of drama and atmosphere". Definitive Guide: "Undoubtedly the foremost exponents of the operatic metal genre".
Powerman 5000 - allmusic: "heavy metal". Not mentioned in any of the sources at all.
Rammstein - allmusic: "progressive metal". Likewise, never mentioned, certainly not as progressive.
Razor - allmusic: no thrash metal tag. Definitive Guide: "A prolific thrash outfit known for their low-budget yet aggressive releases".
Reverend Bizarre - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: simply described as doom metal, no mention of black or death metal elements.
Saint Vitus - allmusic: among other genres, they're classed as "alternative pop/rock". Definitive Guide: Just pure doom in description, nothing along those lines.
Shadows Fall - allmusic: "punk metal". Definitive Guide: Like Chimaira, NWOAHM, and thus classed as having no punk roots.
Slammer - allmusic: no thrash metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Bradford thrash metal band".
Strapping Young Lad - allmusic: "punk metal" (among others). Definitive Guide: Doesn't outright contradict it, but no mention whatsoever of anything like this.
The Black Dahlia Murder - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: "metalcore act".
Theatre of Tragedy - allmusic: no mention of their later techno influences. Definitive Guide: The album Musique "jumping brazenly into techno-pop".
Trouble - allmusic: no mention at all of their stoner metal/rock style. Definitive Guide: "Stoner legends".
Within Temptation - allmusic: just "goth rock". Definitive Guide: "Gothic doom metal act".
Xentrix - allmusic: no "speed metal" tag. Definitive Guide: "a speed metal act".
Last, and most definitely not least, allmusic lumps black metal and death metal together as a single genre tag, something all three of these sources (and no doubt every single other reliable heavy metal source) do not do at all.
So there you have it. The case against allmusic. If even this is not enough, there are further sources that will, I'm sure, only back up my argument, and mass opinion could easily be added in if necessary. Also bear in mind that given the lack of published sources that distinctly lay out genres, there are likely many more classifications which published sources would contradict allmusic on, they are simply not stated outright. There are also many other classifications that can be challenged, but not so definitively, these are the most obvious.
In the face of this evidence contradicting their genre classifications, I see no reason whatsoever to consider allmusic one of Wikipedia's reliable sources for heavy metal genres. Prophaniti ( talk) 16:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Allow me to put it a little more directly: in light of all the evidence above, can anyone come up with a specific good reason to consider allmusic a reliable source on heavy metal genres? More to the point, until someone can provide real reasoning for why they should be considered a reliable source on heavy metal genres, I will take it as an accepted unreliable source and act accordingly. Prophaniti ( talk) 14:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Right, you need to read Wikipedia's policies on varifiability, personal attacks, civility, and original research. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, mass opinion is not a factor as it is neither reliable nor verifiable. People with experience will write an article about it. Second, again sources agreeing with each other means nothing. It's not uncommon for sources to do so. "Yes, we could put "power metal" into Killswitch Engage's info box. But their music doesn't fit the definition of power metal, as given by any reliable source." that's what I mean by original research. It's not our job to figure out which genre is true. BTW, when did I say that AM is right? 72.81.227.98 ( talk) 19:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
OK, here's a few observations, and hopefully this can be moved to another forum:
That is one of the things that makes them qualified,they are peer reviewed. The above evidence implies nothing. Again, we cannot tell which source is correct. 3 on 1 means nothing because none of the sources state the other as wrong, they merely have a different catagorization. Info boxes are NOT a one genre deal ever... you seem to think they are. Looking at a bands playing style and looking at a genre as described by a source and deciding that the band is not that genre is a violation of WP:OR.
"And while it might not be Wikipedia's job to figure out which is right all the time, it's still important. In some of the above cases, both genres can be incorporated. But in many, they can't. We have two directly conflicting sources, one has to be right, the other wrong. In these cases, it is our job to figure out which is wrong." Again that is false. Both genres can be put into the info box regardless of wheather the genres are similar. It's originale research that cannot be used. When you want to decide which genres to be in the info box you bring up the sources and decide via consensus which source should be used. You do not argue which genre they do or do not fit IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOURCE. And this should be done on the indevidual articles talk page. BTW, there is a Wikiproject heavy metal already. 72.81.227.98 ( talk) 00:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
First off, Prophaniti, you need to read WP:NPA. You've violated it a second time now. Continue to do so and you will be reported and likely blocked.
"As I have stated twice now, I fully understand that genre info boxes can have several categories in. But a lot of the above genre clashes are too direct, they cannot fit into the same box unless they describe different albums, which there's no indication they do." whether they come from 2 albums, or whether they clash or not is irrelevant. All we need to know is a source has stated them as such.
"Although I question whether it truly is original research given that it's based on published source's and their classifications of said genres..." again looking at a source for the description of genre X and listening to band Y and coming to the conclusion that band Y plays genre X is original research. If you don’t like this policy you have some options: 1) Ignore the policy and be blocked from editing wikipedia. or 2) Follow the policy. or 3) Try to change the policy on the relevant talk page. or 4) Stop editing wikipedia. Simple as that.
“If three sources vs. one means nothing when they clearly DO state the other is wrong…” no they do not. You seem to be dead set on a one genre to rule them all thing but no band is ever one genre only. Every song and every album differs down to the smallest detail. It is these differences that make more then one genre applicable.
Again what the mass opinion of a bands genre is, is irrelevant. Unless there is a source stating what a bands genre is, we don’t add it regardless of majority opinion.
“In addition, you admit that consensus is used to decide which source is used when there is a conflict: so you admit that general opinion does have an influence after all, and that is part of the argument: that in given conflicts, allmusic would lose every single one of the above examples, because they're accurate.” Nowhere did I say that general opinion has an influence on what genre the band plays. I said it is decided via consensus of the editors as to which sources for a genre to use. This is done NOT by arguing which genre the band sounds most like but rather the majority of verifiable sources. Indeed, if you were arguing this on a given bands article talk page, you’d likely succeed. Of course, this kind of thing is only done when the genre section gets too long, so as long as it’s 3 genres long, don’t expect to get very far on most bands articles. BTW, AM wouldn’t lose because the other sources are accurate, it would lose because there are more of them... granted print sources are usually NOT the best for this sort of thing.
“Also, I don't know where the "IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOURCE" point comes from, as I have got a source, that's rather the point.” You completely ignored my point with that. I was talking about individual band articles.
Regardless, this is something to take up on the wikiproject page, not here. 72.81.227.98 ( talk) 05:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Resolved tag added. Prophaniti ( talk) 09:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)