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I have a general question about polemic and apologist sources on religious topics.
Religious topics, say Scientology, Catholicism, Islam, Mormonism, Jehovahs Witnesses, Zionism are focii of opinion and disputes.
Query: To what degree are Polemic and Apologetic sources considered "Reliable Sources"?
I understand about NPOV and showing both sides. This question involves the presentation of material: Should these things be expressed as facts or as opinions that should be attributed?-- Blue Tie ( talk) 11:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm seeking opinions on the reliability of a secondary source for Axe of the Dwarvish Lords which is being disputed. The source is online in the form of a review of a roleplaying game product in which the article's subject appears [1]. Reliability of the source is being disputed by user:gavin.collins at WP:Articles for deletion/Axe of the Dwarvish Lords.
1) The Disputant claims that the cited review is "self published." The review appears on RPGnet, which is "...owned by Skotos Tech Inc., an online company that runs several entertainment related sites." "RPGnet is an independent web site about tabletop roleplaying games." [2] From the RPGnet review submission guidelines [3] [4], reviews are submitted as a proposal through a submission form, which is then reviewed by a RPGnet editor who decides if the review will be published on RPGnet. The proposal submission page notes that %95 of reviews are accepted and gives a publication schedule. Copyright notice states that Skotos and individual authors reserve all rights.
2) Disputant seems to be claiming that the reviewer's history of having worked for the publishers ( Wizards of the Coast and TSR, Inc.) whose works are the primary sources for the article negates the reliability of the review. The reviewer had no relation to the products containing information about the article's subject other than as noted by the disputant. He was a free-lance game designer at the time he wrote the review, working for a number of gaming companies. The review, though positive overall, is highly critical of the design and overall content of the product. -- Smcmillan ( talk) 19:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
*facepalms*
B-b-but the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords is notable! It is the most powerchful weaponth inth all of the landth of Golandia! It was craftedth by the mighty dwarventh warrior-god, Thalazarth, in the fairy caves of Antioch! It was used by the legendary hero, Zandara, in the destruction of the mighty red pearl dragon!
*rolls 1d20 and casts "Delete stupid article."* ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 02:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Is Carnatica.net a reliable source? The [ Music Handbook section] of this website is what I am referring to specifically. I would consider it as a reliable source for several reasons, including because of the prominent names involved in the making of this website ( http://carnatica.net/carnatica-team.htm). However, three or four certain editors have called it unreliable with no basis at all. They believe that the [ Origins article] found in the Music Handbook section of the website, is inaccurate. So, I would like a second opinion from editors who have not made any edits to the article Carnatic music to hopefully clarify the matter. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 05:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The website is a private(limited) site manned by individuals and the two musicians(sowmya and shashikiran) have a financial stake in it. Shashikiran apparently has helped in the website 'design'. Thats all. Neither have the two of them published research papers (Sowmya might have published something on Chemistry during her days at IIT, Madras) nor are they known researchers. Also the material on the site is unattributed and non-peer reviewed. Add to this the fact that you're abusing blurbs from the site to source the most fantastic and exceptional of claims only worsens matters. The site is non-RS and infact far worse than bharat-rakshak, which itself I contend is non-RS. Sarvagnya 17:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
All of this is pussyfooting around a basic point, in order to wikilawyer some relatively obvious POV-pushing. Carnatic music is not some obscure field, somehow utterly bereft of scholarly peer-reviewed works on the subject. The purpose of citing this particular website , it seems, is to advance the notion that Carnatic music has origins in some form of Tamil folk music. It may, or it may not. But, when there are plenty of published works on Carnatic music, isn't it more than a little odd that this theory only has a website as its source? rudra ( talk) 04:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
(undent)Blueboar, the issue is not so much that the stuff on the site is 'unsourced' as it is 'unattributed'. All articles and even the ones that Ncmv has raised here are unsigned articles and it is anybody's guess as to who wrote them and what their intentions were. Also where did S Ramanathan come into the picture from now? S Ramanathan is the guru of one of the people on the 'board of directors' of this private (limited) website. So? Where on the site does he sign his name against any of the screed? And forget matters of research, the site is full of factual inaccuracies with its dating on the 2nd page of the "Origins" thing. And why is Ncmvocalist bringing what is essentially a content issue to RSN? This is bad faith forum shopping. He'd do well to answer here before he goes forum shopping elsewhere. Sarvagnya 16:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) To get back to the original discussion, I would not trust a site that says Carnatic music has divine origins and that "Carnatic music is also believed to have originated from the Gods". Can we see some facts please, rather than bogus statements like these. If the site is really quoting from some published sources, it better mention it. Wikipedia need not refer to unreliable websites like this. Thanks -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me/ My edits 18:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Is the inclusion of references from the subscription Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (ODNB) permissible on Wikipedia. I've attempted to use this valuable and recent (2004) source to an article I've created, but two editors have frustrated my attempts? The ODNB is used to reference 385 articles on Wikipedia at present, [5] so this is an issue that needs to be resolved. I've issued an RfC at Talk:J. F. X. O'Brien#RfC: Is the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography a valid reference on Wikipedia?.-- Damac ( talk) 22:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source? It seems a little to commercial for me with all those advertisements, and the fact that it's written by students make it for me a little shaky. This user over at Talk:Knight Rider (2008 film) is trying to state that Knight Rider and Viper, both television shows about cars, have some sort of closer connection beyond that (besides NBC as well). The user's first reference was just his observation, the second was a blog, and the third this. I mean they look weak, if there was some sort of connection between both shows, I'm sure there would be more sources than some blog and a student press. Any thoughts? El Greco( talk) 02:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Very poor sourcing on this article, and to my mind too much use of reports in minor Christian news media. I'd appreciate further opinions, because newspapers with a religious affiliation may be RS, e.g. the Jewish Chronicle. Thanks. Itsmejudith ( talk) 13:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Swami Adidevananda has written commentary in kannada based on Adi Shankara's commentary on the Chandogya. He was a reputed religious scholar and has published many books both in English and Kannada on various Vedic topics. I'm using his books as reference in expanding Chandogya Upanishad. Is it acceptable ?? Lokesh 2000 ( talk) 14:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
This thread continues below. Religious authorities as Reliable Sources. It isn't that straightforward, as what is being proposed is to translate Adidevananda's Kannada, as opposed to using sources in English, which brings to the fore the basic issue that there are many "authorities" on the subject. rudra ( talk) 05:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The website http://www.newadvent.org publishes something called " The Catholic Encyclopedia", which states its object as providing information on the "entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine".
Like many religious works, this work too seems to be POV towards a catholic perspective:
While this source may undoubtedly be written by Catholic scholars it is not a reliable source on history, non-Christian religion, ethics etc. However, it may be acceptable to use this as a good source of Catholic views on particular subjects. Bless sins ( talk) 19:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I recently removed a couple of statements by this author from an article. From what I've been able to see, I don't think he has any particular credentials as such, and it really does seem like he's a bit of an extremist. The book he's edited -with, apparently, a professor of English - turns up barely a couple of hits in Google books. I'd like some sense of the circumstances under which he's quotable. Relata refero ( talk) 19:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Occasionally I come across articles that use this site as a reference. I'm not too worried about the news articles, which can generally be replaced by alternatives, but I am worried about the use of the "political affiliation" information in the section on world newspapers. Here is the page on England, which seems broadly correct; but the page on SA, for example, isn't really as accurate. And its one of those places that say "Wrong? Write in and tell us!" which hardly inspires confidence. Safe to remove links as unreliable if they seem inappropriate? Relata refero ( talk) 11:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
It'd be helpful if people could provide assessment of the sources that exist here.
The claim to being "the second best DJ in Poland" is a claim to notability at least, but there's some confusion.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 23:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi i'm looking for an opinion on a source. Is this piece an RS http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html#more due to it being on the official website by one of there foremost authors, or is it a blog. (Hypnosadist) 01:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This is for the Waterboarding article and EVERYTHING is disputed, i want to use it as a source for the Gestapo waterboarding people and then getting the death penality for it by the norwegians in 1948. The article uses as its source a court record that is on the web as part of the "Web Genocide Documentation Centre" hosted by the University of West England (which is a primary source but usually we want a secondary mentioning it). So i am certain that its accurate, i just want outside opinion as to it being an RS. (Hypnosadist) 04:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
There is an extremely lengthy discussion on the Louis XIV article's talk page about sources. I'm not sure this is the right place to post about it, but an outside opinion might be beneficial. If this is not the proper venue, I'd certainly appreciate any suggestions about where to turn next. Thanks, Coemgenus 03:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The definition of an aggregation on the Object Composition page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_composition#Aggregation) seems to tell that it differs from a composition by not having ownership on the members it contains. Thus, when an aggregation is destroyed, its aggregated members are NOT destroyed as well.
However,in the classical book "Design Patterns : Elements of Reusable OBject-Oriented Software" by Eric Gamma, Richard Helm, Ralph Johnson and John Vlissides, the definition of an aggregation gos like this: (p. 22) "Aggregation implies that one object owns or is responsible for another object. Generally we speak of an object having or being part of another object. Aggregation implies that an aggregate object and its owner have identical lifetimes."
It seems to me that both definitions are antonyms. So, what is the correct definition?
Question ISKCON is governed by an organization called the Governing Body Commission, presently there are 48 members on this commission. Concerning reliable sources, is the GBC website a reliable source for articles concerning these 48 members? Also, are each of the members notable (for Wikipedia) as religious leaders due to their membership on the GBC in ISKCON? Website at [9]. Thanks. Ism schism ( talk) 07:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Question Is ISKCON Desire Tree, a Mutltimedia portal a reliable source. [12]. Thanks. Ism schism ( talk) 16:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I've read here and there that you cannot use Youtube as a source, and yet, doing numerous google searching fails to turn up any policy that says so. In particular, I'm hoping to use Youtube as a source to prove that a band was on a TV show. If the interview with the band was flighted on Romanian TV, and there is a clip on Youtube, is this not acceptable as a source to prove they were on TV?
Also, what source can I use to say a website was formed on such-and-such a date? Can I not use the whois record? Such as www.whois.sc/kord.ro
Thanks Rfwoolf ( talk) 09:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the useful post. I am now going to search how to cite a television program airing. Rfwoolf ( talk) 10:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Rfwoolf ( talk) 11:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I have placed a request for discussion at the Talk:Britches_(monkey)#Proposal_to_move page. Basically, the Animal Liberation Front raided UC Riverside in 1985, took a lot of animals, and made a video. The ALF is considered an extremist group, and they are anonymous. PETA acted as their press office, and called news sources on their behalf. The ALF video detailed the story of Britches, an animal that they claim was liberated in the raid, and ultimately transferred to a sanctuary in Mexico. The story of Britches exists in the ALF video (hosted at PETA TV), and in two books by Lantern Books. These books are authored by Ingrid Newkirk (head and founder of PETA), and Steven Best (former ALF Press Office head). The books repeat the claims made in the video. However, the ALF is anonymous, and neither Best nor Newkirk claim to know who the ALF agents were (or they would bear criminal liability). In any case, the request was to move the page to a new title reflecting that it is about an ALF raid on UC-Riverside, and that the detailed facts from the ALF video, and the books based on it, be GREATLY reduced and altered in content to indicate that they reflect the claims of the ALf.
The question for this noticeboard is what is appropriate in this situation? When a Wikipedia page is apparently based nearly entirely on a video made anonymously by an extremist group? -- Animalresearcher ( talk) 04:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I am currently requesting discussion on removing the Ingrid Newkirk sources from the Britches page, and would likely seek to do it across all the animal testing pages. The issue with reliability arises here http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/40_1/40_1Roots.shtml In the Unnecessary Fuss incident at U Penn, ALF raided U Penn and took research videotapes from researchers. Ingrid Newkirk and Alex Pacheco (founders of PETA) produced the edited video "Unnecessary Fuss" from the original source from the researchers. In this particular case, the Office for the Protection of Research Interests was investigating the U Penn labs because of the PETA video, and they requested all the original sources. The OPRR found that the video was edited to deliberately mislead the viewer, and contained many errors in the voiceover by Ingrid Newkirk. In this particular instance, because OPRR had both the original sources and the edited video, it is clear that the source is not just unreliable, but intentionally so. The removals being requested will be things sourced to Ingrid Newkirk and PETA materials. The relevant section from the third party reference above is
ALF gave the stolen audio-/videotapes to PETA. PETA edited the tapes, added a "voice-over commentary," and circulated the edited tape entitled Unnecessary Fuss to schools, newspapers, television networks, dozens of television stations--and Congress. Congress and members of the general public were shocked at the cruelty to and disregard for the research animals presented on the tape. PETA then petitioned the PHS to close the laboratory and punish the investigators, Drs. Langfit and Genarelli, for violation of the PHS Policy.
OPRR refused to act on the basis of evidence contained in an edited tape. The University of Pennsylvania claimed that Unnecessary Fuss was a caricature of the actual proceedings that had taken place in the laboratory. For more than 1 yr, PETA refused to turn over the evidence it had to OPRR. In the spring of 1984, PETA sent the unedited tapes to the US Department of Agriculture (USDA1), which in turn sent them to OPRR. OPRR asked 18 veterinarians, mostly diplomates of the American College of Laboratory Animal Medicine, who were for the most part employed by various institutes within NIH, to review the tapes and report on their findings concerning violations of the PHS Policy or the AWA....OPRR discovered that Unnecessary Fuss presented the case history of only one of approximately 150 animals that had received whiplash. By clever editing and inaccurate voice over, the viewer was led to believe that the inhumane treatment depicted on the film was repeated numerous times. In actual fact, one baboon was badly treated, and the film repeatedly showed the particular mistreatment while the commentator narrated that the mistreatment was repeated on a long series of different animals. In all, OPRR identified approximately 25 errors in the voice over description of what was taking place. Typical was the statement accompanying an accidental water spill that acid had been carelessly poured on a baboon.
Is it appropriate on this basis to recognize Ingrid Newkirk and PETA as unreliable sources?-- Animalresearcher ( talk) 16:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Background: There is a short piece of writing called "Footprints". It is often said to be anonymous, but five people have also claimed to be the author. Until recently, the page on the piece said exactly this. Since then, User:76.91.240.181 has been repeatedly adding a piece of text to the lede saying some variation on this:
Here is my question: is Carty's registration of copyright at the U.S. Copyright Office (on 24 February 1986) sufficient to settle her claim that she wrote the poem (in 1963)? I am thinking it isn't (and I am getting a little tired of reverting these edits), but I wanted to be sure before I take any more action. Marnanel ( talk) 03:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi all,
A question, can The Skeptic's Dictionary and it's linked site [www.skepdic.com] be considered a reliable source? Can and should it be linked to as an external link? Many of the pages it would be linked to are pseudoscientific or fringe topics, so get little mainstream scientific attention, but it's linked to on a lot of pages for providing a 'common sense' and skeptical perspective on things. Has there ever been a discussion on this? WLU ( talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
<undent>Ads are one criteria, if it's the only worthwhile mainstream external link then the ads may be a necessary evil. MPD/DID appears in the print version (which I own), I believe in substantially the same form though I've not checked. And Carroll cites, obviously, the skeptical sources, but he does cite them. I'd say the self-published nature of the web entries is OK - given the publication of a book by a very good publisher, in my mind it establishes expertise - if we can use weblogs of notable researchers on the biology/creationism pages, then this is similar.
Any time any article can be mined for sources, the more scholarly source should be used. One thing that SD has that other sources don't always provide is a broad, textbook-style introduction to the subject, from a mainstream science perspective. Very valuable. A question for the more experienced editors - I prefer to avoid the "X said in Y source approach", particularly when there is a completed citation template available. WLU ( talk) 12:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Is a newscast by an established news corporation acceptable as a reliable source? Specifically, I am referring to a Fox 11 news report, broadcast by KTTV (an owned-and-operated television station of the News Corporation-owned Fox Broadcasting Company, located in Los Angeles, California), which is available online (on the broadcaster's website). I wish to point out some statements made during the report, attributing them to the source within the paragraph's wording. Citation would be:
The point of contention involves the " KTTV Fox 11 news report" section ( permanent link) of the Anonymous (group) article. Thanks in advance for any feedback. Ayla ( talk) 16:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Unreliability doesn't decrease with reach, but reach promotes notability, and notable sources should be cited (with claims appropriately attributed) irrespective of their reliability. This is the difference between the two formulations:
To draw a (weak) analogy: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust is mentioned in both Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Holocaust denial#Iranian President Ahmadinejad. Not because he is a reliable authority on the subject, but because he is a notable enough international personality for his controversial claim to be noticed. Ayla ( talk) 17:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
But wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. The KTTV Fox 11 news technically counts as verifiable. We can't go making assumptions saying one news source is untrue and another is true without inserting political bias. 4.242.141.245 ( talk) 02:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we should rely on this one source alone for this entire subsection. In a subsection about the FOX report itself, this is actually a primary source. Are there any secondary sources out there that satisfy WP:RS/ WP:V that can corroborate any of this info?? Cirt ( talk) 19:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Two further sources mentioning the Fox report have now been added to the article. Ayla ( talk) 20:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
By now, three secondary sources which refer directly to the Fox report have been added to the section. Although the report itself remains a primary source within its own section, this should no longer be an issue since its significance has been corroborated. Furthermore, the criticism given by one in particular should address the issue of undue weight, as it gives a perspective on the general reaction to the report. Given these considerations, I am marking the discussion as resolved. If anyone objects, go ahead and remove the {{ resolved}} tag, and preferably also drop a note at Talk:Anonymous (group). Thanks. Ayla ( talk) 00:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
A user contacted me due to my removal of content cited with the mentioned source. I explained him why it is not a reliable source (it's a extremly commercail web site). The user claims that since I'm not an admin I can't say what's reliable or not. I asked him to read
WP:RS but he also claims the web site it's not listed so it can't be considered as not-reliable.
So I decided to ask it here.
And the edit summary of this
diff clearly shows the users doesn't understand certain guidelines. Like
WP:OWN. Thanks.
Tasc0
It's a zero! 22:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been challenged [13] that my cite [14] to this New York Times article[ [15] ]is not a reliable source. I would welcome a third opinion. SaltyBoatr ( talk) 16:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The New York Times is more than reliable for presenting as facts what the views of others are, and for supporting the notability/prominence of independently expressed viewpoints. Someguy1221 ( talk) 22:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
It is a reliable source for two things: (i) factual, unopinionated news reports (this does not include letters to the editor, or editorials, or comment etc.) (ii) opinion pieces when they are authored by reliable source (such as a professor), or when thye are used about the author him/herself meeting the conditions of WP:SELFPUB. Bless sins ( talk) 16:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Guys, you are dangerously close to being worth a mention in WP:LAME. This is certainly among the better ones I've seen. The language is all but identical, and it's not like both sources don't both confirm the text. The Evil Spartan ( talk) 18:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Another editor keeps insisting on inserting tabloid gossip diff printed in British tabloids into the Amy Winehouse article, which recount supposed comments by family and friends. I am highly doubtful about the reliability of such sources, especially given the tone and content of such sources, such as here, here and here. These publications seem little different to me than similar American publications such as The National Enquirer or The Star. Does Wikipedia permit such dubious references? Wildhartlivie ( talk) 09:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Are religious authorities considered WP:RS sources even if they do not have PhDs from accredited universities? This question is extremely relevant in the Hinduism related articles since much research and study has been done by people who are considered authorities in the field who are considered "religious authorities" by many and have gone through what might be considered a different line of education than what is considered traditional education as introduced through the British System Kkm5848 ( talk) 00:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
If they are talking about their own religion then it's a different matter than if they are talking about a religions they don't follow. // Liftarn ( talk)
second question. as often happens; their viewpoints often collide with subsets of academic "experts" who have not necessarily focused on that explicit topic; but in the general area. Who is considered to be authoritative. Lets continue on the Vedic Math example: If Prof. Michael Witzel of Harvard (who is the prof. of sanskrit but has significant work in Indology in general) states that the Vedas have no description of Vedic Maths and that the whole thing is a concoction of math tricks by Jagadguru Swami Sri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaja . Now, the Swami has significant credentials and credibility in his work. Whose view point would we take? [on a side note: this is a completely made up example and I have no idea if it has any basis in fact--but is good for illustrating the question]. Kkm5848 ( talk) 23:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Editor Hux has used an image [16] as a source to verify Michael Lucas's birthdate, [17]; Editor WJBscribe has used the same image to source Lucas's name, [18]. The image shows what appears to be some kind of document written using what appears to be the cyrillic alphabet.
Problems: 1) this is an image of what appears to be some kind of document, the image itself is not a certified copy of any document; 2) it is uncertain what the document in the image actually is: the author,
David Shankbone has titled it "Russian Birth Certificiate of Michael Lucas," but in the summary description of the image he says it's Lucas's passport; Editor Hux thinks it's a birth certificate passport; Editor WJBscribe thinks it's a birth certificate; and, 3) the document in the image is written in a language other than English and it is uncertain what it actually says: two editors have offered their interpretations of what's written on the document in the image,
[19] and
[20], but their transliterations (?) are selective and are not complete translations, and their facility with the language in the document in the image is unknown.
Question: Can an image of a document be used a reliable source if: a) it's unknown if the document in the image is official; b) it's unclear what the document in the image actually is; and, c) it's unclear what the document in the image actually says? -- 72.76.99.66 ( talk) 15:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) You know, there's an easier resolution to this issue. Have Lucas send in an official copy of his university transcript.-- 72.76.9.74 ( talk) 14:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
With full knowledge that the IP editor is trolling (and in agreement with JzG's block of him), I agree with Jossi. As I opined on the talk page and on AN/I, this is a level of verifiability that comes down to "A trusted Wikipedia editor said it was." With no disrespect intended to any of those editors, that's a standard of verifiability that seems below what we should be striving for. I agree that the document itself can and should be used via BLP if it's provided to OTRS -- isn't that exactly why OTRS exists? Nandesuka ( talk) 20:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been editing the Treaty of Tripoli article for several weeks, but a certain user, Relata refero, has lately deleted random sections of the material that I have submitted. In this particular instance, I have provided 3 sources that all make the same historical statement. The 3 sources are "Archiving Early America" (article by Professor Thomas Jewett, Associate Professor at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville); "Time" magazine (article by Christopher Hitchens) and "The Washington Post" (article by Richard Leiby). Relata refero says that these sources do not meet the standard demanded by WP:RS#Scholarship, because they are not peer-reviewed journals. He specifically attacks the "Time" article, because he considers Mr. Hitchens polemical, and so not suited for use as a source of historical information. So, he keeps deleting this material. Pooua ( talk) 09:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, the treaty does have the line about not the US not being founded on Christianity; it is cited in the article. I have read Hitchens, Time and the Wash Post and they certainly qualify as reliable sources. ( Dawkins and Harris mention this treaty, too.) If they say what is claimed, then the statements are sourced. If there are other claims with sources, fine. With people citing tvsquad.com as reliable sources, this seems a bit silly. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Someguy1221, you say that there is some reason to doubt the statement that the Pasha of Tripoli raised his tribute demands after the first Treaty of Tripoli was signed. What is your basis for claiming there is reason to doubt it? No one in the article or its discussion page has produced any quote or source that disputes the claim. Furthermore, there are other reference materials that make the same claim, though they should not be necessary.
Jack Merridew, you are confusing who is claiming what. Hitchens was not quoted to say anything at all about Christianity in this nation or in relation to the Treaty. He was quoted to document that the Pasha of Tripoli raised his demands after the first Treaty of Tripoli was ratified. And, yes, it is silly to object to using him for this reference. What is so hard to believe about a pirate nation not complying with the terms of a treaty?
Relata refero wrote the last unsigned line before my comments. Pooua ( talk) 21:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Scholarly sources, when available, should always be preferred over the news media. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The bibliography at First Barbary War might prove useful. rudra ( talk) 22:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Normally, when I write a research paper, I would want to use the best sources I could. At the same time, Wikipedia is meant to be open to everyone to contribute. That won't happen if Wikipedia requires people to use only rare or difficult to access materials. I mean, I find myself spending about $50 per article that I write, as I buy books off Amazon.com. Not everyone is willing to do that. The Internet and libraries can only go so far. So, either Wikipedia is going to be a populist encyclopedia, open for anyone to contribute, or it is going to limit its contributions just to specialists who have access to materials not easily available to the public. I believe that insisting on peer-reviewed, scholarly materials in every citation violates the spirit of Wikipedia.
Another example is the quote from Eaton, which I pulled from David Barton's book. Several people complain, because I used Barton as my source. My only alternative is to find a way to gain access to a $200 rare book. That is not reasonable, and it is perfectly legitimate to use the quote from someone else who has seen the book. Pooua ( talk) 22:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I have nothing against someone using a better source, if they have one available. But, in this case, no one has provided any source other than the sources that I have provided. They are simply deleting anything that is connected in any way, however remotely, to the view that the U.S. was a Christian nation at her founding. That means any source, author or editor who has ever shown sympathy for that view is being cut out of this article, bit-by-bit. Pooua ( talk) 22:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
"The bibliography at First Barbary War might prove useful. rudra" - FWIW, one of the books listed in that bibliography is "Victory in Tripoli: How America's War with the Barbary Pirates Established the U.S. Navy and Shaped a Nation," by Joshua London. I used Amazon's "Look Inside" feature to confirm that this book discusses the increased tribute demanded by the Pasha of Tripoli. I've ordered the book from Amazon; I should get my copy in a week or so, along with a few other books that I bought on the subject of Tripoli. Pooua ( talk) 23:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, now what happens? Some of the editors say that my sources are sufficient; some say that my sources are not. What happens next? 204.253.82.210 ( talk) 02:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Blueboar, they aren't statements of opinion; they are statements of historical facts. The question is whether articles in "Time" magazine and "Washington Post" can be used as sources for this article.
Someguy1221, I've already gone through several of the options on DR. In fact, that page is how I got here. And, here we have apparently not resolved anything. Pooua ( talk) 03:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It's unquestionable that both the Washington Post and Time magazine are reliable sources. To argue otherwise borders on the absurd. Yes, if there's a better, more scholarly source available for the same assertion, by all means use that, but "I don't like Christopher Hitchens because he's a polemicist" doesn't make Time any less of a reliable source. Nandesuka ( talk) 07:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd appreciate some guidance here, as I'm at an impasse with another editor. While it's in mediation, I think we need some third-party input. Let me describe the problem and my proposed solution abstractly, and then link to the specific.
Website A is wiki-like, and anyone can go in and edit. I don't disagree that, if the site was used as the sole reference for a point, website A itself would not meet WP:RS.
Professionally, which doesn't necessarily operate by Wikipedia rules, I've taken material from far more disreputable sources, but, if the specific material can be validated through more reliable sources, I consider the datum, but not the source as a whole, to be reliable.
In this case, the sole piece of information taken from a site is the name of organization from which organization 2, the focus of the article in question, derives its tax-exempt status.
Given this name, it was possible to look up organization 1 in a commercial database (Website B) of tax-exempt organizations and verify its existence and its tax status. The individual doing the tax report was identical to the contact named in Website A.
Also given the name of organization 1, a Google search for organization 1 AND organization 2 retrieved a solicitation, on Website C, for donations to organization 2. Organization 2 asked for checks to be made out jointly to organizations 1 AND 2.
While I agree Website A does not appear to have tight security controls, it was only used as a means for finding a search argument that did turn up an accepted reliable Website B, and an appeal from Organization 2 itself, documenting a relationship between 1 and 2.
I contend that when a piece of information from a questionable site can be confirmed by two other independent sources, it should be within WP:V, if not strictly WP:RS, to use that single piece of information for a limited purpose. Another editor argues what US lawyers call "the fruit of the poisoned tree", which means that if any evidence was not obtained lawfully, any other evidence derived from it is inadmissible.
What is the opinion here? The specific mediation link is Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-02-04 Code Pink.
If the consensus is that a questionable source cannot be used as a search argument to find agreed reliable sources, that solves the particular situation, and I will gracefully withdraw from editing the article in question, and will not use the technique in any other article edits.
Howard C. Berkowitz ( talk) 23:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, is a book published by Lantern Books a reliable source for the article on Animal testing? The reference is number 140 in this version of the article. Thanks Tim Vickers ( talk) 18:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the prompt reply, LinaMishima. Tim Vickers ( talk) 19:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I also removed a link diff to the Animal Liberation Front website. Do people here agree that this is not a reliable source? Tim Vickers ( talk) 20:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
You may notice that I also removed some sources used to advance a pro-testing argument, and described the argument they supported as an example of OR, so please assume good faith. The ALF is described by governments as a terrorist organization, and the Animal testing article is not about the ALF, so I thought it might be a bad idea to include such questionable sources. This is the appropriate place to get second opinions about the reliability of sources, and I have asked for some more opinions on this. Tim Vickers ( talk) 21:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I think SV is right. Any organization, extremist or not, may present its own information or testimony about itself, where it is being addressed. So if we have a section or article that focuses on X, saying some source claims X did Y in a particular incident, X can be a reliable source to reply to it. Crum375 ( talk) 18:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The argument made above was that this was "appropriate use of the ALF as a source, because they were there, they found him, and they know what he looked like when they found him better than anyone else." is false. In addition, the argument that this is a section about the ALF (and therefore allowed to use sources that would otherwise be disallowed) is also wrong. This is not a section on the ALF any more than a policeman's description of the scene of a crime would be considered a statement about the police force he works for. The description must be assessed according to how reliable a witness is perceived to be. Our Verifiability policy makes it abundantly clear that we can't consider the ALF a reliable witness in this matter. But let's see how the professionals dealt with the ALF's claim: the Associated Press article was written by an organisation whose full-time job is to assess and relay the facts. Do they say "260 animals, including Britches, were stolen from the laboratories at the University of California, Riverside in a raid by the Animal Liberation Front." (as the Animal testing article currently does). No, their heading is "Group Says It 'Rescued'260 Animals From Lab" and later:
Nowhere in that article does the AP put their journalistic weight behind those claims. Now, I'm not saying they may be false, but if the AP don't trust them enough to state them as hard facts, then neither should we. The text should be rephrased to make it clear that these are the claims of the ALF, not hard facts. Additionally, now that we have a reliable secondary source for this sentence, restoring the link to the ALF video is utterly pointless. A gratuitous link to a video made by an extremist organisation is indefensible. Colin° Talk 21:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Based on the apparent consensus of uninvolved editors here, is there any objection to me removing these references? Tim Vickers ( talk) 17:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Crum375 has replaced these references in the article, stating that he sees no consensus to remove them on this page diff. Tim Vickers ( talk) 18:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Reliability of source http://www.ozo.org.ua/biblioteka/Tys-Krokhmaliuk-Yuriy-UPA.djvu for WWII history article - included many myths about non existed battles with non-existed SS-division headed by non existed high ranked SS-man - Sturbahnfuehrer SS General Platle and later under General Hintzler. Also Xenophobic (Jewish-element, Russian-communists etc). Also Reliability of sources based on mentioned book. Thanks Jo0doe ( talk) 22:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
user wikidemo with apparant WP:OWN issues is going against consensus and BLP and RS violations and insists on adding negative information about J Stalin insisting he was a drug dealer as a child, his source is completely unreliable album notes from a some two-bit album which is not readily available nor independant of the subject. Also he insists on adding that the rapper sold candy on bart trains as a child and has removed fact and cn tags several times. On the talk page he claims consensus blp and rs do not apply and that he does not care. Would an administrator revert these edits, and warn this user? I will not edit war and i will not revert it myself anymore. Even though it is a clear BLP violation. Icamepica ( talk) 21:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
We have two papers, Cazin (1987) (J.C. Cazin et al.. "A Study of the Effect of Decimal and Centesimal Dilution of Arsenic on Retention and Mobilization of Arsenic in the Rat," Human Toxicology, July 1987) and Linde (1994) (Linde, K., Jonas, W.B., Melchart, D., et al. (1994) "Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology," Human and Experimental Toxicology, 13:481-92), the first of which is a study of the effect of homeopathic dilutions of arsenic on rats, and the second is a meta-analysis which reviews this paper and gives it a "QE > 50" rating which is characterized in the abstract as "high quality." These papers have been challenged, but they have been verified and no verifiable and reliable sources have been put forward to challenge Cazin or Linde. We have been going in circles, and it might be helpful to have clarity from someone here as to whether these are reliable sources for our purposes.
(portion supplied by User:DanaUllman who has the papers): Jonas, Kaptchuck, and Linde (2003)(Jonas, Kaptchuck, and Linde, "A Critical Overview of Homeopathy," Annals of Internal Medicine, March 4, 2003, 138,5:393-400), reference Linde (1994), and assert that "unusual effects of ultra-high dilutions in rigorous laboratory studies continue to be reported."(page 397) Here, these authors re-assert their affirmation that their study found effects from homeopathic medicines in "rigorous laboratory studies." Linde (1994) notes that they evaluated between 24 and 31 criteria (depending on the model studied), though we do not know the details about this criteria. Although one might assume that blinding might be a necessary component of "high quality" research, there may be some types of studies for which other criteria of research design are more important. Likewise, randomization is not always viable in animal research nor might it have any significance in evaluating whether the study was a high quality one. Just as blinding is not typically used in surgery, not every component of human trials may be necessary in determining high quality research on other areas of scientific inquiry. — Whig ( talk) 06:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The issue here is determining what is a massacre, for inclusion in this list. Some editors are using Wikipedia itself as a source: they only accept a massacre if there is a corresponding article which uses the word massacre in the title and lede. Sources such as the NYT or academic works are not accepted. So, what is a reliable source in this context?
Colonel Warden ( talk) 14:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The current criterion for inclusion in the list is "events which are known by the word "massacre" in their name." Whether that is or is not the case is best examined in detail in the article on that event, rather than multiple debates on different events on the List talk page. If an event does not have sufficient notability for an article, then it is doubtful whether it merits inclusion in the list either. There are already over 600 articles on events named "massacre". [24] That is plenty to be going on with, as the list only contains just over 50 of them at the moment. Tyrenius ( talk) 17:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you read through the article talk page archives and the current AfD for the considerations involved here, then join in the appropriate debate. This is the Reliable Sources board and the question about that issue, "Some editors are using Wikipedia itself as a source: they only accept a massacre if there is a corresponding article which uses the word massacre in the title and lede. Sources such as the NYT or academic works are not accepted." was answered directly underneath it. Tyrenius ( talk) 20:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm in the process of trimming and editing an article called List of supercouples. Currently a website called soapcentral.com is being used as a source for some of the claims, and I'm unsure if this should be allowed. My concern is that much, if not all, of the content appears to be user and fan generated. Some opinions would be greatly appreciated. AniMate 17:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Awadewit has raised concerns about two sources used in If (magazine), which is currently a featured article candidate.
Thanks for any help on these. Mike Christie (talk) 20:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
On the article 9/11 conspiracy theories (possibly soon to be renamed 9/11 alternative theories or Controversies over 9/11) there has been some discussion over whether the site Patriots Question 9/11.com can be used as a source for the claim that "330 professional engineers and architects that have been willing to go public with their doubts as to the accuracy of this mainstream account". The arguments in favor of using it have argued that it is an "unimpeachable website" and a "a verifiable, primary source" which should be used to balance a reliable source in the article which explains that these conspiracy theories are generally rejected by engineers. The arguments against have pointed out that it is a primary source, not a third-party source, and so we cannot include their claims about their list, or its significance, as true without a reliable source to support them or verify them. All we can use this source to say is "A group claims to have collected the names of 330 people said to be engineers who disagree with the NIST report". What is the correct way to proceed here? -- Haemo ( talk) 20:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Is MEMRI http://www.memri.org/ a reliable source. I think it is based on the content it has. Yahel Guhan 00:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
More specifically the question (at least the question I have) is whether MEMRI is a reliable source on the Qur'an, its exegesis, the hadith/ sunnah or classic Islamic theology. If yes, what makes it a reliable source in any those fields? I think the best way to go about this is to look at each individual author, and evaluate him/her for his/her credentials. Bless sins ( talk) 18:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why this is relevant. MEMRI is a serious organisation, that it can be argued that they have erred in translation on two occasions, just goes to show what a RS it is. Any major news source print daily corrections and apologies, so 2 mistakes should invalidate a source? Please! Lobojo ( talk) 01:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
David Shulman is one of the world's leading authorities on Dravidian linguistics. He has a professional interest in Islam among the Tamils. An Israeli-American, he is also a peace activist, who spent 4 years studying conflict between Palestinians and Israeli settlers on the West Bank. He is fluent in Hebrew and Arabic, was assisted by a yeshiva-trained settler's son with intimate knowledge of the area. He has written a book, Dark Hope: Working for Peace in Israel and Palestine, on his experiences, peer-reviewed, vetted and published by the University of Chicago Press. The book was reviewed by an Israeli academic authority, Avishai Margalit, in the New York Review of Books [27], who commended it as 'important and memorable'. It was nominated by a senior editor on Slate (magazine)as one of the most important books of 2007. It is finally, strenuously objected to as a Reliable Source on the Wiki page Israeli Settlement at [28] mainly by User:Jayjg. If this is not a reliable source, what is? Nishidani ( talk) 13:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Israel, like any other society, has violent, sociopathic elements. What is unusual about the last four decades in Israel is that many destructive individuals have found a haven, complete with ideological legitimation, within the settlement enterprise. Here, in places like Chavat Maon, Itamar, Tapuach, and Hebron, they have, in effect, unfettered freedom to terrorize the local Palestinian population: to attack, shoot, injure, sometimes kill - all in the name of the alleged sanctity of the land and of the Jews' exclusive right to it.
A number of inquiries here are about whether such-and-such or so-and-so is a "reliable source" (and just that), usually because someone else has contested it. Now, it's all very well to show credentials, but what often gets lost is exactly what for which the source is a WP:RS. That is, this board can be abused for deceptive arguments of the form "But X is a WP:RS! (unstated but claimed: on subject Y)" when the discussion on this board had actually established WP:RS for subject Z. rudra ( talk) 01:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
It is all about context: In which context is this source used, and to support what text in the article. These questions are better discussed in article's talk and not here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
There are several aspects to how reliable a source can be. Is the author a tenured or tenure-track academic? Is his speciality in a related field? Is the particular work published by an academic imprint or a peer-reviewed journal? Does the publisher have a reputation for accuracy and editorial control? And so on.
By the way, any attempt to demonstrate that because the U of Chicago press published poetry, it has ceased to have a review process on its academic work is a little pathetic. Relata refero ( talk) 08:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) My goodness, what a strange situation must be going on over at the relevant talk page. I'm too squeamish to look, I admit.
A book published by a scholar in a major university press, and positively reviewed by notable sources, is not only a reliable source, it's in the top tier of reliable sources. Logical contortionism, and drawing one's adversaries into sidelines about WP:CIVility, won't change that. < eleland/ talk edits> 11:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Without necessarily agreeing with Eleland here, I personally think that a comparison between this section and that on Paul Bogdanor above is instructive. Relata refero ( talk) 11:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Further to List of massacres above, please advise on a reliable source for establishing that Tiananmen Square Massacre is an acceptable and well-used name for the regrettable deaths which took place there. My formal citations were Kelly Barth (2003). The Tiananmen Square Massacre. Greenhaven Press. ISBN 0737711760. and Chu-Yuan Cheng (1990). Behind the Tiananmen Massacre: Social, Political, and Economic Ferment in China. Westview Press. ISBN 0813310474.. There seem to be many more sources available at Google Scholar which include phrases like "An estimated 400-800 civilians were killed in what has come to be called the ‘Tiananmen Square Massacre’" ( article). It seems to me that this is more than enough but this is disputed by reference to some "hidden text". Colonel Warden ( talk) 09:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Don't we have a policy stating "Wikipedia is not a reliable source"? That would seem to make nonsense of the list's criteria for inclusion. It's bizarre situation when Wikipedia article titles and leads are deemed more reliable than published sources. -- Folantin ( talk) 16:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Discussion arising from my explanation of the AFD closure seems (finger-crossed) to be leading to a consensus on the inclusion criteria for this list: see Talk:List of events named massacres#Explanation_and_question_from_AfD_closer. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 07:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Please don't interpret this as forum shopping, but a debate over an image from this site is currently under way at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2008 February 29#Image:Vincennes shot.jpg, and this isn't so much related to the image as the site itself. (As I understand it hosted content from a non RS source is ok in certain circumstances, for example a personal site which hosts court documents or other verifiable content so even if the site is determined to be non-RS it won't necessarily affect the image debate.)
That said, is this a reliable source for articles dealing with the Middle East, like Iran Air flight 655? It strikes me as being similar to the source being debated above, patriotsquestion911, an unknown website claiming legitimacy except in this case in bad English. Anynobody 00:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Alborz Fallah, as I said this thread isn't about the image, rather the rest of the site and its information like The Land Rover Jeep and Zorro's horse and articles like the one about Iran Air flight 655 which constantly refers to the USS Vincennes as the USS Vincent. Anynobody 03:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
More like "request for cluebat" rather than RS/N: should a leak that has been unconfirmed be used as a source in an article? Will ( talk) 16:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the best way to ask this question is to present the actual example where this occured to me: G. Edward Griffin has written a book about the Federal Reserve System. On the backside of the cover there are several comments, one of which is this:
Now my questions: Is this reliable information? Can it be used to claim that Ron Paul approved Griffin's analysis of the Fed? How do you cite such a comment? Can you verify the accuracy of the comment? Thanks for any replies. FeelFreeToBe ( talk) 16:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the question is rather: Is it reliable although it is self-published material? I'm asking because I don't see an easy way to verify the accuracy, unless the comment is taken from a larger review. FeelFreeToBe ( talk) 17:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Well... I don't think it is a self published source ... Paul didn't publish it, nor did someone working for him. I am also not sure what you mean by "verify the accuracy"... is there reason to doubt that Ron Paul actually wrote these words? Blueboar ( talk) 19:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone comment on the Origins Awards? Are they are a "reliable source" to demonstrate notability? Winning such an award is verifiable in a number of ways. A quick search of Google News on "Origins Award" and on "Academy of Adventure Gaming" (they are awarded by the Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts & Design) reveals some hits so it's at least moderately newsworthy. [29] [30] One newspaper apprarently says it's "the gaming equivalent of an Oscar" and so forth. A quick search on Google Scholar for "Origins Award" reveals a few hits (which I haven't really investigated them, was more curious to see what sort of results might be there). [31] Basically I've had this same conversation several times now and would like independent input so that I can avoid having it again in the future. There seems to be some disagreement as to whether winning this award is a true indicator of notability or is it simply a "trade award". (Of course, one could argue that the Oscars are simply a "trade award", given by people in the movie industry to others in the same industry). Cheers --Craw-daddy | T | 23:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
I have a general question about polemic and apologist sources on religious topics.
Religious topics, say Scientology, Catholicism, Islam, Mormonism, Jehovahs Witnesses, Zionism are focii of opinion and disputes.
Query: To what degree are Polemic and Apologetic sources considered "Reliable Sources"?
I understand about NPOV and showing both sides. This question involves the presentation of material: Should these things be expressed as facts or as opinions that should be attributed?-- Blue Tie ( talk) 11:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm seeking opinions on the reliability of a secondary source for Axe of the Dwarvish Lords which is being disputed. The source is online in the form of a review of a roleplaying game product in which the article's subject appears [1]. Reliability of the source is being disputed by user:gavin.collins at WP:Articles for deletion/Axe of the Dwarvish Lords.
1) The Disputant claims that the cited review is "self published." The review appears on RPGnet, which is "...owned by Skotos Tech Inc., an online company that runs several entertainment related sites." "RPGnet is an independent web site about tabletop roleplaying games." [2] From the RPGnet review submission guidelines [3] [4], reviews are submitted as a proposal through a submission form, which is then reviewed by a RPGnet editor who decides if the review will be published on RPGnet. The proposal submission page notes that %95 of reviews are accepted and gives a publication schedule. Copyright notice states that Skotos and individual authors reserve all rights.
2) Disputant seems to be claiming that the reviewer's history of having worked for the publishers ( Wizards of the Coast and TSR, Inc.) whose works are the primary sources for the article negates the reliability of the review. The reviewer had no relation to the products containing information about the article's subject other than as noted by the disputant. He was a free-lance game designer at the time he wrote the review, working for a number of gaming companies. The review, though positive overall, is highly critical of the design and overall content of the product. -- Smcmillan ( talk) 19:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
*facepalms*
B-b-but the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords is notable! It is the most powerchful weaponth inth all of the landth of Golandia! It was craftedth by the mighty dwarventh warrior-god, Thalazarth, in the fairy caves of Antioch! It was used by the legendary hero, Zandara, in the destruction of the mighty red pearl dragon!
*rolls 1d20 and casts "Delete stupid article."* ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 02:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Is Carnatica.net a reliable source? The [ Music Handbook section] of this website is what I am referring to specifically. I would consider it as a reliable source for several reasons, including because of the prominent names involved in the making of this website ( http://carnatica.net/carnatica-team.htm). However, three or four certain editors have called it unreliable with no basis at all. They believe that the [ Origins article] found in the Music Handbook section of the website, is inaccurate. So, I would like a second opinion from editors who have not made any edits to the article Carnatic music to hopefully clarify the matter. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 05:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The website is a private(limited) site manned by individuals and the two musicians(sowmya and shashikiran) have a financial stake in it. Shashikiran apparently has helped in the website 'design'. Thats all. Neither have the two of them published research papers (Sowmya might have published something on Chemistry during her days at IIT, Madras) nor are they known researchers. Also the material on the site is unattributed and non-peer reviewed. Add to this the fact that you're abusing blurbs from the site to source the most fantastic and exceptional of claims only worsens matters. The site is non-RS and infact far worse than bharat-rakshak, which itself I contend is non-RS. Sarvagnya 17:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
All of this is pussyfooting around a basic point, in order to wikilawyer some relatively obvious POV-pushing. Carnatic music is not some obscure field, somehow utterly bereft of scholarly peer-reviewed works on the subject. The purpose of citing this particular website , it seems, is to advance the notion that Carnatic music has origins in some form of Tamil folk music. It may, or it may not. But, when there are plenty of published works on Carnatic music, isn't it more than a little odd that this theory only has a website as its source? rudra ( talk) 04:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
(undent)Blueboar, the issue is not so much that the stuff on the site is 'unsourced' as it is 'unattributed'. All articles and even the ones that Ncmv has raised here are unsigned articles and it is anybody's guess as to who wrote them and what their intentions were. Also where did S Ramanathan come into the picture from now? S Ramanathan is the guru of one of the people on the 'board of directors' of this private (limited) website. So? Where on the site does he sign his name against any of the screed? And forget matters of research, the site is full of factual inaccuracies with its dating on the 2nd page of the "Origins" thing. And why is Ncmvocalist bringing what is essentially a content issue to RSN? This is bad faith forum shopping. He'd do well to answer here before he goes forum shopping elsewhere. Sarvagnya 16:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) To get back to the original discussion, I would not trust a site that says Carnatic music has divine origins and that "Carnatic music is also believed to have originated from the Gods". Can we see some facts please, rather than bogus statements like these. If the site is really quoting from some published sources, it better mention it. Wikipedia need not refer to unreliable websites like this. Thanks -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me/ My edits 18:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Is the inclusion of references from the subscription Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (ODNB) permissible on Wikipedia. I've attempted to use this valuable and recent (2004) source to an article I've created, but two editors have frustrated my attempts? The ODNB is used to reference 385 articles on Wikipedia at present, [5] so this is an issue that needs to be resolved. I've issued an RfC at Talk:J. F. X. O'Brien#RfC: Is the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography a valid reference on Wikipedia?.-- Damac ( talk) 22:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source? It seems a little to commercial for me with all those advertisements, and the fact that it's written by students make it for me a little shaky. This user over at Talk:Knight Rider (2008 film) is trying to state that Knight Rider and Viper, both television shows about cars, have some sort of closer connection beyond that (besides NBC as well). The user's first reference was just his observation, the second was a blog, and the third this. I mean they look weak, if there was some sort of connection between both shows, I'm sure there would be more sources than some blog and a student press. Any thoughts? El Greco( talk) 02:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Very poor sourcing on this article, and to my mind too much use of reports in minor Christian news media. I'd appreciate further opinions, because newspapers with a religious affiliation may be RS, e.g. the Jewish Chronicle. Thanks. Itsmejudith ( talk) 13:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Swami Adidevananda has written commentary in kannada based on Adi Shankara's commentary on the Chandogya. He was a reputed religious scholar and has published many books both in English and Kannada on various Vedic topics. I'm using his books as reference in expanding Chandogya Upanishad. Is it acceptable ?? Lokesh 2000 ( talk) 14:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
This thread continues below. Religious authorities as Reliable Sources. It isn't that straightforward, as what is being proposed is to translate Adidevananda's Kannada, as opposed to using sources in English, which brings to the fore the basic issue that there are many "authorities" on the subject. rudra ( talk) 05:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The website http://www.newadvent.org publishes something called " The Catholic Encyclopedia", which states its object as providing information on the "entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine".
Like many religious works, this work too seems to be POV towards a catholic perspective:
While this source may undoubtedly be written by Catholic scholars it is not a reliable source on history, non-Christian religion, ethics etc. However, it may be acceptable to use this as a good source of Catholic views on particular subjects. Bless sins ( talk) 19:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I recently removed a couple of statements by this author from an article. From what I've been able to see, I don't think he has any particular credentials as such, and it really does seem like he's a bit of an extremist. The book he's edited -with, apparently, a professor of English - turns up barely a couple of hits in Google books. I'd like some sense of the circumstances under which he's quotable. Relata refero ( talk) 19:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Occasionally I come across articles that use this site as a reference. I'm not too worried about the news articles, which can generally be replaced by alternatives, but I am worried about the use of the "political affiliation" information in the section on world newspapers. Here is the page on England, which seems broadly correct; but the page on SA, for example, isn't really as accurate. And its one of those places that say "Wrong? Write in and tell us!" which hardly inspires confidence. Safe to remove links as unreliable if they seem inappropriate? Relata refero ( talk) 11:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
It'd be helpful if people could provide assessment of the sources that exist here.
The claim to being "the second best DJ in Poland" is a claim to notability at least, but there's some confusion.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 23:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi i'm looking for an opinion on a source. Is this piece an RS http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html#more due to it being on the official website by one of there foremost authors, or is it a blog. (Hypnosadist) 01:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This is for the Waterboarding article and EVERYTHING is disputed, i want to use it as a source for the Gestapo waterboarding people and then getting the death penality for it by the norwegians in 1948. The article uses as its source a court record that is on the web as part of the "Web Genocide Documentation Centre" hosted by the University of West England (which is a primary source but usually we want a secondary mentioning it). So i am certain that its accurate, i just want outside opinion as to it being an RS. (Hypnosadist) 04:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
There is an extremely lengthy discussion on the Louis XIV article's talk page about sources. I'm not sure this is the right place to post about it, but an outside opinion might be beneficial. If this is not the proper venue, I'd certainly appreciate any suggestions about where to turn next. Thanks, Coemgenus 03:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The definition of an aggregation on the Object Composition page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_composition#Aggregation) seems to tell that it differs from a composition by not having ownership on the members it contains. Thus, when an aggregation is destroyed, its aggregated members are NOT destroyed as well.
However,in the classical book "Design Patterns : Elements of Reusable OBject-Oriented Software" by Eric Gamma, Richard Helm, Ralph Johnson and John Vlissides, the definition of an aggregation gos like this: (p. 22) "Aggregation implies that one object owns or is responsible for another object. Generally we speak of an object having or being part of another object. Aggregation implies that an aggregate object and its owner have identical lifetimes."
It seems to me that both definitions are antonyms. So, what is the correct definition?
Question ISKCON is governed by an organization called the Governing Body Commission, presently there are 48 members on this commission. Concerning reliable sources, is the GBC website a reliable source for articles concerning these 48 members? Also, are each of the members notable (for Wikipedia) as religious leaders due to their membership on the GBC in ISKCON? Website at [9]. Thanks. Ism schism ( talk) 07:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Question Is ISKCON Desire Tree, a Mutltimedia portal a reliable source. [12]. Thanks. Ism schism ( talk) 16:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I've read here and there that you cannot use Youtube as a source, and yet, doing numerous google searching fails to turn up any policy that says so. In particular, I'm hoping to use Youtube as a source to prove that a band was on a TV show. If the interview with the band was flighted on Romanian TV, and there is a clip on Youtube, is this not acceptable as a source to prove they were on TV?
Also, what source can I use to say a website was formed on such-and-such a date? Can I not use the whois record? Such as www.whois.sc/kord.ro
Thanks Rfwoolf ( talk) 09:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the useful post. I am now going to search how to cite a television program airing. Rfwoolf ( talk) 10:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Rfwoolf ( talk) 11:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I have placed a request for discussion at the Talk:Britches_(monkey)#Proposal_to_move page. Basically, the Animal Liberation Front raided UC Riverside in 1985, took a lot of animals, and made a video. The ALF is considered an extremist group, and they are anonymous. PETA acted as their press office, and called news sources on their behalf. The ALF video detailed the story of Britches, an animal that they claim was liberated in the raid, and ultimately transferred to a sanctuary in Mexico. The story of Britches exists in the ALF video (hosted at PETA TV), and in two books by Lantern Books. These books are authored by Ingrid Newkirk (head and founder of PETA), and Steven Best (former ALF Press Office head). The books repeat the claims made in the video. However, the ALF is anonymous, and neither Best nor Newkirk claim to know who the ALF agents were (or they would bear criminal liability). In any case, the request was to move the page to a new title reflecting that it is about an ALF raid on UC-Riverside, and that the detailed facts from the ALF video, and the books based on it, be GREATLY reduced and altered in content to indicate that they reflect the claims of the ALf.
The question for this noticeboard is what is appropriate in this situation? When a Wikipedia page is apparently based nearly entirely on a video made anonymously by an extremist group? -- Animalresearcher ( talk) 04:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I am currently requesting discussion on removing the Ingrid Newkirk sources from the Britches page, and would likely seek to do it across all the animal testing pages. The issue with reliability arises here http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/40_1/40_1Roots.shtml In the Unnecessary Fuss incident at U Penn, ALF raided U Penn and took research videotapes from researchers. Ingrid Newkirk and Alex Pacheco (founders of PETA) produced the edited video "Unnecessary Fuss" from the original source from the researchers. In this particular case, the Office for the Protection of Research Interests was investigating the U Penn labs because of the PETA video, and they requested all the original sources. The OPRR found that the video was edited to deliberately mislead the viewer, and contained many errors in the voiceover by Ingrid Newkirk. In this particular instance, because OPRR had both the original sources and the edited video, it is clear that the source is not just unreliable, but intentionally so. The removals being requested will be things sourced to Ingrid Newkirk and PETA materials. The relevant section from the third party reference above is
ALF gave the stolen audio-/videotapes to PETA. PETA edited the tapes, added a "voice-over commentary," and circulated the edited tape entitled Unnecessary Fuss to schools, newspapers, television networks, dozens of television stations--and Congress. Congress and members of the general public were shocked at the cruelty to and disregard for the research animals presented on the tape. PETA then petitioned the PHS to close the laboratory and punish the investigators, Drs. Langfit and Genarelli, for violation of the PHS Policy.
OPRR refused to act on the basis of evidence contained in an edited tape. The University of Pennsylvania claimed that Unnecessary Fuss was a caricature of the actual proceedings that had taken place in the laboratory. For more than 1 yr, PETA refused to turn over the evidence it had to OPRR. In the spring of 1984, PETA sent the unedited tapes to the US Department of Agriculture (USDA1), which in turn sent them to OPRR. OPRR asked 18 veterinarians, mostly diplomates of the American College of Laboratory Animal Medicine, who were for the most part employed by various institutes within NIH, to review the tapes and report on their findings concerning violations of the PHS Policy or the AWA....OPRR discovered that Unnecessary Fuss presented the case history of only one of approximately 150 animals that had received whiplash. By clever editing and inaccurate voice over, the viewer was led to believe that the inhumane treatment depicted on the film was repeated numerous times. In actual fact, one baboon was badly treated, and the film repeatedly showed the particular mistreatment while the commentator narrated that the mistreatment was repeated on a long series of different animals. In all, OPRR identified approximately 25 errors in the voice over description of what was taking place. Typical was the statement accompanying an accidental water spill that acid had been carelessly poured on a baboon.
Is it appropriate on this basis to recognize Ingrid Newkirk and PETA as unreliable sources?-- Animalresearcher ( talk) 16:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Background: There is a short piece of writing called "Footprints". It is often said to be anonymous, but five people have also claimed to be the author. Until recently, the page on the piece said exactly this. Since then, User:76.91.240.181 has been repeatedly adding a piece of text to the lede saying some variation on this:
Here is my question: is Carty's registration of copyright at the U.S. Copyright Office (on 24 February 1986) sufficient to settle her claim that she wrote the poem (in 1963)? I am thinking it isn't (and I am getting a little tired of reverting these edits), but I wanted to be sure before I take any more action. Marnanel ( talk) 03:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi all,
A question, can The Skeptic's Dictionary and it's linked site [www.skepdic.com] be considered a reliable source? Can and should it be linked to as an external link? Many of the pages it would be linked to are pseudoscientific or fringe topics, so get little mainstream scientific attention, but it's linked to on a lot of pages for providing a 'common sense' and skeptical perspective on things. Has there ever been a discussion on this? WLU ( talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
<undent>Ads are one criteria, if it's the only worthwhile mainstream external link then the ads may be a necessary evil. MPD/DID appears in the print version (which I own), I believe in substantially the same form though I've not checked. And Carroll cites, obviously, the skeptical sources, but he does cite them. I'd say the self-published nature of the web entries is OK - given the publication of a book by a very good publisher, in my mind it establishes expertise - if we can use weblogs of notable researchers on the biology/creationism pages, then this is similar.
Any time any article can be mined for sources, the more scholarly source should be used. One thing that SD has that other sources don't always provide is a broad, textbook-style introduction to the subject, from a mainstream science perspective. Very valuable. A question for the more experienced editors - I prefer to avoid the "X said in Y source approach", particularly when there is a completed citation template available. WLU ( talk) 12:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Is a newscast by an established news corporation acceptable as a reliable source? Specifically, I am referring to a Fox 11 news report, broadcast by KTTV (an owned-and-operated television station of the News Corporation-owned Fox Broadcasting Company, located in Los Angeles, California), which is available online (on the broadcaster's website). I wish to point out some statements made during the report, attributing them to the source within the paragraph's wording. Citation would be:
The point of contention involves the " KTTV Fox 11 news report" section ( permanent link) of the Anonymous (group) article. Thanks in advance for any feedback. Ayla ( talk) 16:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Unreliability doesn't decrease with reach, but reach promotes notability, and notable sources should be cited (with claims appropriately attributed) irrespective of their reliability. This is the difference between the two formulations:
To draw a (weak) analogy: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust is mentioned in both Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Holocaust denial#Iranian President Ahmadinejad. Not because he is a reliable authority on the subject, but because he is a notable enough international personality for his controversial claim to be noticed. Ayla ( talk) 17:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
But wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. The KTTV Fox 11 news technically counts as verifiable. We can't go making assumptions saying one news source is untrue and another is true without inserting political bias. 4.242.141.245 ( talk) 02:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we should rely on this one source alone for this entire subsection. In a subsection about the FOX report itself, this is actually a primary source. Are there any secondary sources out there that satisfy WP:RS/ WP:V that can corroborate any of this info?? Cirt ( talk) 19:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Two further sources mentioning the Fox report have now been added to the article. Ayla ( talk) 20:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
By now, three secondary sources which refer directly to the Fox report have been added to the section. Although the report itself remains a primary source within its own section, this should no longer be an issue since its significance has been corroborated. Furthermore, the criticism given by one in particular should address the issue of undue weight, as it gives a perspective on the general reaction to the report. Given these considerations, I am marking the discussion as resolved. If anyone objects, go ahead and remove the {{ resolved}} tag, and preferably also drop a note at Talk:Anonymous (group). Thanks. Ayla ( talk) 00:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
A user contacted me due to my removal of content cited with the mentioned source. I explained him why it is not a reliable source (it's a extremly commercail web site). The user claims that since I'm not an admin I can't say what's reliable or not. I asked him to read
WP:RS but he also claims the web site it's not listed so it can't be considered as not-reliable.
So I decided to ask it here.
And the edit summary of this
diff clearly shows the users doesn't understand certain guidelines. Like
WP:OWN. Thanks.
Tasc0
It's a zero! 22:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been challenged [13] that my cite [14] to this New York Times article[ [15] ]is not a reliable source. I would welcome a third opinion. SaltyBoatr ( talk) 16:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The New York Times is more than reliable for presenting as facts what the views of others are, and for supporting the notability/prominence of independently expressed viewpoints. Someguy1221 ( talk) 22:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
It is a reliable source for two things: (i) factual, unopinionated news reports (this does not include letters to the editor, or editorials, or comment etc.) (ii) opinion pieces when they are authored by reliable source (such as a professor), or when thye are used about the author him/herself meeting the conditions of WP:SELFPUB. Bless sins ( talk) 16:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Guys, you are dangerously close to being worth a mention in WP:LAME. This is certainly among the better ones I've seen. The language is all but identical, and it's not like both sources don't both confirm the text. The Evil Spartan ( talk) 18:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Another editor keeps insisting on inserting tabloid gossip diff printed in British tabloids into the Amy Winehouse article, which recount supposed comments by family and friends. I am highly doubtful about the reliability of such sources, especially given the tone and content of such sources, such as here, here and here. These publications seem little different to me than similar American publications such as The National Enquirer or The Star. Does Wikipedia permit such dubious references? Wildhartlivie ( talk) 09:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Are religious authorities considered WP:RS sources even if they do not have PhDs from accredited universities? This question is extremely relevant in the Hinduism related articles since much research and study has been done by people who are considered authorities in the field who are considered "religious authorities" by many and have gone through what might be considered a different line of education than what is considered traditional education as introduced through the British System Kkm5848 ( talk) 00:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
If they are talking about their own religion then it's a different matter than if they are talking about a religions they don't follow. // Liftarn ( talk)
second question. as often happens; their viewpoints often collide with subsets of academic "experts" who have not necessarily focused on that explicit topic; but in the general area. Who is considered to be authoritative. Lets continue on the Vedic Math example: If Prof. Michael Witzel of Harvard (who is the prof. of sanskrit but has significant work in Indology in general) states that the Vedas have no description of Vedic Maths and that the whole thing is a concoction of math tricks by Jagadguru Swami Sri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaja . Now, the Swami has significant credentials and credibility in his work. Whose view point would we take? [on a side note: this is a completely made up example and I have no idea if it has any basis in fact--but is good for illustrating the question]. Kkm5848 ( talk) 23:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Editor Hux has used an image [16] as a source to verify Michael Lucas's birthdate, [17]; Editor WJBscribe has used the same image to source Lucas's name, [18]. The image shows what appears to be some kind of document written using what appears to be the cyrillic alphabet.
Problems: 1) this is an image of what appears to be some kind of document, the image itself is not a certified copy of any document; 2) it is uncertain what the document in the image actually is: the author,
David Shankbone has titled it "Russian Birth Certificiate of Michael Lucas," but in the summary description of the image he says it's Lucas's passport; Editor Hux thinks it's a birth certificate passport; Editor WJBscribe thinks it's a birth certificate; and, 3) the document in the image is written in a language other than English and it is uncertain what it actually says: two editors have offered their interpretations of what's written on the document in the image,
[19] and
[20], but their transliterations (?) are selective and are not complete translations, and their facility with the language in the document in the image is unknown.
Question: Can an image of a document be used a reliable source if: a) it's unknown if the document in the image is official; b) it's unclear what the document in the image actually is; and, c) it's unclear what the document in the image actually says? -- 72.76.99.66 ( talk) 15:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) You know, there's an easier resolution to this issue. Have Lucas send in an official copy of his university transcript.-- 72.76.9.74 ( talk) 14:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
With full knowledge that the IP editor is trolling (and in agreement with JzG's block of him), I agree with Jossi. As I opined on the talk page and on AN/I, this is a level of verifiability that comes down to "A trusted Wikipedia editor said it was." With no disrespect intended to any of those editors, that's a standard of verifiability that seems below what we should be striving for. I agree that the document itself can and should be used via BLP if it's provided to OTRS -- isn't that exactly why OTRS exists? Nandesuka ( talk) 20:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been editing the Treaty of Tripoli article for several weeks, but a certain user, Relata refero, has lately deleted random sections of the material that I have submitted. In this particular instance, I have provided 3 sources that all make the same historical statement. The 3 sources are "Archiving Early America" (article by Professor Thomas Jewett, Associate Professor at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville); "Time" magazine (article by Christopher Hitchens) and "The Washington Post" (article by Richard Leiby). Relata refero says that these sources do not meet the standard demanded by WP:RS#Scholarship, because they are not peer-reviewed journals. He specifically attacks the "Time" article, because he considers Mr. Hitchens polemical, and so not suited for use as a source of historical information. So, he keeps deleting this material. Pooua ( talk) 09:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, the treaty does have the line about not the US not being founded on Christianity; it is cited in the article. I have read Hitchens, Time and the Wash Post and they certainly qualify as reliable sources. ( Dawkins and Harris mention this treaty, too.) If they say what is claimed, then the statements are sourced. If there are other claims with sources, fine. With people citing tvsquad.com as reliable sources, this seems a bit silly. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Someguy1221, you say that there is some reason to doubt the statement that the Pasha of Tripoli raised his tribute demands after the first Treaty of Tripoli was signed. What is your basis for claiming there is reason to doubt it? No one in the article or its discussion page has produced any quote or source that disputes the claim. Furthermore, there are other reference materials that make the same claim, though they should not be necessary.
Jack Merridew, you are confusing who is claiming what. Hitchens was not quoted to say anything at all about Christianity in this nation or in relation to the Treaty. He was quoted to document that the Pasha of Tripoli raised his demands after the first Treaty of Tripoli was ratified. And, yes, it is silly to object to using him for this reference. What is so hard to believe about a pirate nation not complying with the terms of a treaty?
Relata refero wrote the last unsigned line before my comments. Pooua ( talk) 21:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Scholarly sources, when available, should always be preferred over the news media. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The bibliography at First Barbary War might prove useful. rudra ( talk) 22:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Normally, when I write a research paper, I would want to use the best sources I could. At the same time, Wikipedia is meant to be open to everyone to contribute. That won't happen if Wikipedia requires people to use only rare or difficult to access materials. I mean, I find myself spending about $50 per article that I write, as I buy books off Amazon.com. Not everyone is willing to do that. The Internet and libraries can only go so far. So, either Wikipedia is going to be a populist encyclopedia, open for anyone to contribute, or it is going to limit its contributions just to specialists who have access to materials not easily available to the public. I believe that insisting on peer-reviewed, scholarly materials in every citation violates the spirit of Wikipedia.
Another example is the quote from Eaton, which I pulled from David Barton's book. Several people complain, because I used Barton as my source. My only alternative is to find a way to gain access to a $200 rare book. That is not reasonable, and it is perfectly legitimate to use the quote from someone else who has seen the book. Pooua ( talk) 22:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I have nothing against someone using a better source, if they have one available. But, in this case, no one has provided any source other than the sources that I have provided. They are simply deleting anything that is connected in any way, however remotely, to the view that the U.S. was a Christian nation at her founding. That means any source, author or editor who has ever shown sympathy for that view is being cut out of this article, bit-by-bit. Pooua ( talk) 22:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
"The bibliography at First Barbary War might prove useful. rudra" - FWIW, one of the books listed in that bibliography is "Victory in Tripoli: How America's War with the Barbary Pirates Established the U.S. Navy and Shaped a Nation," by Joshua London. I used Amazon's "Look Inside" feature to confirm that this book discusses the increased tribute demanded by the Pasha of Tripoli. I've ordered the book from Amazon; I should get my copy in a week or so, along with a few other books that I bought on the subject of Tripoli. Pooua ( talk) 23:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, now what happens? Some of the editors say that my sources are sufficient; some say that my sources are not. What happens next? 204.253.82.210 ( talk) 02:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Blueboar, they aren't statements of opinion; they are statements of historical facts. The question is whether articles in "Time" magazine and "Washington Post" can be used as sources for this article.
Someguy1221, I've already gone through several of the options on DR. In fact, that page is how I got here. And, here we have apparently not resolved anything. Pooua ( talk) 03:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It's unquestionable that both the Washington Post and Time magazine are reliable sources. To argue otherwise borders on the absurd. Yes, if there's a better, more scholarly source available for the same assertion, by all means use that, but "I don't like Christopher Hitchens because he's a polemicist" doesn't make Time any less of a reliable source. Nandesuka ( talk) 07:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd appreciate some guidance here, as I'm at an impasse with another editor. While it's in mediation, I think we need some third-party input. Let me describe the problem and my proposed solution abstractly, and then link to the specific.
Website A is wiki-like, and anyone can go in and edit. I don't disagree that, if the site was used as the sole reference for a point, website A itself would not meet WP:RS.
Professionally, which doesn't necessarily operate by Wikipedia rules, I've taken material from far more disreputable sources, but, if the specific material can be validated through more reliable sources, I consider the datum, but not the source as a whole, to be reliable.
In this case, the sole piece of information taken from a site is the name of organization from which organization 2, the focus of the article in question, derives its tax-exempt status.
Given this name, it was possible to look up organization 1 in a commercial database (Website B) of tax-exempt organizations and verify its existence and its tax status. The individual doing the tax report was identical to the contact named in Website A.
Also given the name of organization 1, a Google search for organization 1 AND organization 2 retrieved a solicitation, on Website C, for donations to organization 2. Organization 2 asked for checks to be made out jointly to organizations 1 AND 2.
While I agree Website A does not appear to have tight security controls, it was only used as a means for finding a search argument that did turn up an accepted reliable Website B, and an appeal from Organization 2 itself, documenting a relationship between 1 and 2.
I contend that when a piece of information from a questionable site can be confirmed by two other independent sources, it should be within WP:V, if not strictly WP:RS, to use that single piece of information for a limited purpose. Another editor argues what US lawyers call "the fruit of the poisoned tree", which means that if any evidence was not obtained lawfully, any other evidence derived from it is inadmissible.
What is the opinion here? The specific mediation link is Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-02-04 Code Pink.
If the consensus is that a questionable source cannot be used as a search argument to find agreed reliable sources, that solves the particular situation, and I will gracefully withdraw from editing the article in question, and will not use the technique in any other article edits.
Howard C. Berkowitz ( talk) 23:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, is a book published by Lantern Books a reliable source for the article on Animal testing? The reference is number 140 in this version of the article. Thanks Tim Vickers ( talk) 18:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the prompt reply, LinaMishima. Tim Vickers ( talk) 19:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I also removed a link diff to the Animal Liberation Front website. Do people here agree that this is not a reliable source? Tim Vickers ( talk) 20:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
You may notice that I also removed some sources used to advance a pro-testing argument, and described the argument they supported as an example of OR, so please assume good faith. The ALF is described by governments as a terrorist organization, and the Animal testing article is not about the ALF, so I thought it might be a bad idea to include such questionable sources. This is the appropriate place to get second opinions about the reliability of sources, and I have asked for some more opinions on this. Tim Vickers ( talk) 21:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I think SV is right. Any organization, extremist or not, may present its own information or testimony about itself, where it is being addressed. So if we have a section or article that focuses on X, saying some source claims X did Y in a particular incident, X can be a reliable source to reply to it. Crum375 ( talk) 18:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The argument made above was that this was "appropriate use of the ALF as a source, because they were there, they found him, and they know what he looked like when they found him better than anyone else." is false. In addition, the argument that this is a section about the ALF (and therefore allowed to use sources that would otherwise be disallowed) is also wrong. This is not a section on the ALF any more than a policeman's description of the scene of a crime would be considered a statement about the police force he works for. The description must be assessed according to how reliable a witness is perceived to be. Our Verifiability policy makes it abundantly clear that we can't consider the ALF a reliable witness in this matter. But let's see how the professionals dealt with the ALF's claim: the Associated Press article was written by an organisation whose full-time job is to assess and relay the facts. Do they say "260 animals, including Britches, were stolen from the laboratories at the University of California, Riverside in a raid by the Animal Liberation Front." (as the Animal testing article currently does). No, their heading is "Group Says It 'Rescued'260 Animals From Lab" and later:
Nowhere in that article does the AP put their journalistic weight behind those claims. Now, I'm not saying they may be false, but if the AP don't trust them enough to state them as hard facts, then neither should we. The text should be rephrased to make it clear that these are the claims of the ALF, not hard facts. Additionally, now that we have a reliable secondary source for this sentence, restoring the link to the ALF video is utterly pointless. A gratuitous link to a video made by an extremist organisation is indefensible. Colin° Talk 21:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Based on the apparent consensus of uninvolved editors here, is there any objection to me removing these references? Tim Vickers ( talk) 17:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Crum375 has replaced these references in the article, stating that he sees no consensus to remove them on this page diff. Tim Vickers ( talk) 18:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Reliability of source http://www.ozo.org.ua/biblioteka/Tys-Krokhmaliuk-Yuriy-UPA.djvu for WWII history article - included many myths about non existed battles with non-existed SS-division headed by non existed high ranked SS-man - Sturbahnfuehrer SS General Platle and later under General Hintzler. Also Xenophobic (Jewish-element, Russian-communists etc). Also Reliability of sources based on mentioned book. Thanks Jo0doe ( talk) 22:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
user wikidemo with apparant WP:OWN issues is going against consensus and BLP and RS violations and insists on adding negative information about J Stalin insisting he was a drug dealer as a child, his source is completely unreliable album notes from a some two-bit album which is not readily available nor independant of the subject. Also he insists on adding that the rapper sold candy on bart trains as a child and has removed fact and cn tags several times. On the talk page he claims consensus blp and rs do not apply and that he does not care. Would an administrator revert these edits, and warn this user? I will not edit war and i will not revert it myself anymore. Even though it is a clear BLP violation. Icamepica ( talk) 21:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
We have two papers, Cazin (1987) (J.C. Cazin et al.. "A Study of the Effect of Decimal and Centesimal Dilution of Arsenic on Retention and Mobilization of Arsenic in the Rat," Human Toxicology, July 1987) and Linde (1994) (Linde, K., Jonas, W.B., Melchart, D., et al. (1994) "Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology," Human and Experimental Toxicology, 13:481-92), the first of which is a study of the effect of homeopathic dilutions of arsenic on rats, and the second is a meta-analysis which reviews this paper and gives it a "QE > 50" rating which is characterized in the abstract as "high quality." These papers have been challenged, but they have been verified and no verifiable and reliable sources have been put forward to challenge Cazin or Linde. We have been going in circles, and it might be helpful to have clarity from someone here as to whether these are reliable sources for our purposes.
(portion supplied by User:DanaUllman who has the papers): Jonas, Kaptchuck, and Linde (2003)(Jonas, Kaptchuck, and Linde, "A Critical Overview of Homeopathy," Annals of Internal Medicine, March 4, 2003, 138,5:393-400), reference Linde (1994), and assert that "unusual effects of ultra-high dilutions in rigorous laboratory studies continue to be reported."(page 397) Here, these authors re-assert their affirmation that their study found effects from homeopathic medicines in "rigorous laboratory studies." Linde (1994) notes that they evaluated between 24 and 31 criteria (depending on the model studied), though we do not know the details about this criteria. Although one might assume that blinding might be a necessary component of "high quality" research, there may be some types of studies for which other criteria of research design are more important. Likewise, randomization is not always viable in animal research nor might it have any significance in evaluating whether the study was a high quality one. Just as blinding is not typically used in surgery, not every component of human trials may be necessary in determining high quality research on other areas of scientific inquiry. — Whig ( talk) 06:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The issue here is determining what is a massacre, for inclusion in this list. Some editors are using Wikipedia itself as a source: they only accept a massacre if there is a corresponding article which uses the word massacre in the title and lede. Sources such as the NYT or academic works are not accepted. So, what is a reliable source in this context?
Colonel Warden ( talk) 14:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The current criterion for inclusion in the list is "events which are known by the word "massacre" in their name." Whether that is or is not the case is best examined in detail in the article on that event, rather than multiple debates on different events on the List talk page. If an event does not have sufficient notability for an article, then it is doubtful whether it merits inclusion in the list either. There are already over 600 articles on events named "massacre". [24] That is plenty to be going on with, as the list only contains just over 50 of them at the moment. Tyrenius ( talk) 17:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you read through the article talk page archives and the current AfD for the considerations involved here, then join in the appropriate debate. This is the Reliable Sources board and the question about that issue, "Some editors are using Wikipedia itself as a source: they only accept a massacre if there is a corresponding article which uses the word massacre in the title and lede. Sources such as the NYT or academic works are not accepted." was answered directly underneath it. Tyrenius ( talk) 20:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm in the process of trimming and editing an article called List of supercouples. Currently a website called soapcentral.com is being used as a source for some of the claims, and I'm unsure if this should be allowed. My concern is that much, if not all, of the content appears to be user and fan generated. Some opinions would be greatly appreciated. AniMate 17:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Awadewit has raised concerns about two sources used in If (magazine), which is currently a featured article candidate.
Thanks for any help on these. Mike Christie (talk) 20:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
On the article 9/11 conspiracy theories (possibly soon to be renamed 9/11 alternative theories or Controversies over 9/11) there has been some discussion over whether the site Patriots Question 9/11.com can be used as a source for the claim that "330 professional engineers and architects that have been willing to go public with their doubts as to the accuracy of this mainstream account". The arguments in favor of using it have argued that it is an "unimpeachable website" and a "a verifiable, primary source" which should be used to balance a reliable source in the article which explains that these conspiracy theories are generally rejected by engineers. The arguments against have pointed out that it is a primary source, not a third-party source, and so we cannot include their claims about their list, or its significance, as true without a reliable source to support them or verify them. All we can use this source to say is "A group claims to have collected the names of 330 people said to be engineers who disagree with the NIST report". What is the correct way to proceed here? -- Haemo ( talk) 20:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Is MEMRI http://www.memri.org/ a reliable source. I think it is based on the content it has. Yahel Guhan 00:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
More specifically the question (at least the question I have) is whether MEMRI is a reliable source on the Qur'an, its exegesis, the hadith/ sunnah or classic Islamic theology. If yes, what makes it a reliable source in any those fields? I think the best way to go about this is to look at each individual author, and evaluate him/her for his/her credentials. Bless sins ( talk) 18:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why this is relevant. MEMRI is a serious organisation, that it can be argued that they have erred in translation on two occasions, just goes to show what a RS it is. Any major news source print daily corrections and apologies, so 2 mistakes should invalidate a source? Please! Lobojo ( talk) 01:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
David Shulman is one of the world's leading authorities on Dravidian linguistics. He has a professional interest in Islam among the Tamils. An Israeli-American, he is also a peace activist, who spent 4 years studying conflict between Palestinians and Israeli settlers on the West Bank. He is fluent in Hebrew and Arabic, was assisted by a yeshiva-trained settler's son with intimate knowledge of the area. He has written a book, Dark Hope: Working for Peace in Israel and Palestine, on his experiences, peer-reviewed, vetted and published by the University of Chicago Press. The book was reviewed by an Israeli academic authority, Avishai Margalit, in the New York Review of Books [27], who commended it as 'important and memorable'. It was nominated by a senior editor on Slate (magazine)as one of the most important books of 2007. It is finally, strenuously objected to as a Reliable Source on the Wiki page Israeli Settlement at [28] mainly by User:Jayjg. If this is not a reliable source, what is? Nishidani ( talk) 13:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Israel, like any other society, has violent, sociopathic elements. What is unusual about the last four decades in Israel is that many destructive individuals have found a haven, complete with ideological legitimation, within the settlement enterprise. Here, in places like Chavat Maon, Itamar, Tapuach, and Hebron, they have, in effect, unfettered freedom to terrorize the local Palestinian population: to attack, shoot, injure, sometimes kill - all in the name of the alleged sanctity of the land and of the Jews' exclusive right to it.
A number of inquiries here are about whether such-and-such or so-and-so is a "reliable source" (and just that), usually because someone else has contested it. Now, it's all very well to show credentials, but what often gets lost is exactly what for which the source is a WP:RS. That is, this board can be abused for deceptive arguments of the form "But X is a WP:RS! (unstated but claimed: on subject Y)" when the discussion on this board had actually established WP:RS for subject Z. rudra ( talk) 01:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
It is all about context: In which context is this source used, and to support what text in the article. These questions are better discussed in article's talk and not here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
There are several aspects to how reliable a source can be. Is the author a tenured or tenure-track academic? Is his speciality in a related field? Is the particular work published by an academic imprint or a peer-reviewed journal? Does the publisher have a reputation for accuracy and editorial control? And so on.
By the way, any attempt to demonstrate that because the U of Chicago press published poetry, it has ceased to have a review process on its academic work is a little pathetic. Relata refero ( talk) 08:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) My goodness, what a strange situation must be going on over at the relevant talk page. I'm too squeamish to look, I admit.
A book published by a scholar in a major university press, and positively reviewed by notable sources, is not only a reliable source, it's in the top tier of reliable sources. Logical contortionism, and drawing one's adversaries into sidelines about WP:CIVility, won't change that. < eleland/ talk edits> 11:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Without necessarily agreeing with Eleland here, I personally think that a comparison between this section and that on Paul Bogdanor above is instructive. Relata refero ( talk) 11:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Further to List of massacres above, please advise on a reliable source for establishing that Tiananmen Square Massacre is an acceptable and well-used name for the regrettable deaths which took place there. My formal citations were Kelly Barth (2003). The Tiananmen Square Massacre. Greenhaven Press. ISBN 0737711760. and Chu-Yuan Cheng (1990). Behind the Tiananmen Massacre: Social, Political, and Economic Ferment in China. Westview Press. ISBN 0813310474.. There seem to be many more sources available at Google Scholar which include phrases like "An estimated 400-800 civilians were killed in what has come to be called the ‘Tiananmen Square Massacre’" ( article). It seems to me that this is more than enough but this is disputed by reference to some "hidden text". Colonel Warden ( talk) 09:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Don't we have a policy stating "Wikipedia is not a reliable source"? That would seem to make nonsense of the list's criteria for inclusion. It's bizarre situation when Wikipedia article titles and leads are deemed more reliable than published sources. -- Folantin ( talk) 16:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Discussion arising from my explanation of the AFD closure seems (finger-crossed) to be leading to a consensus on the inclusion criteria for this list: see Talk:List of events named massacres#Explanation_and_question_from_AfD_closer. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 07:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Please don't interpret this as forum shopping, but a debate over an image from this site is currently under way at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2008 February 29#Image:Vincennes shot.jpg, and this isn't so much related to the image as the site itself. (As I understand it hosted content from a non RS source is ok in certain circumstances, for example a personal site which hosts court documents or other verifiable content so even if the site is determined to be non-RS it won't necessarily affect the image debate.)
That said, is this a reliable source for articles dealing with the Middle East, like Iran Air flight 655? It strikes me as being similar to the source being debated above, patriotsquestion911, an unknown website claiming legitimacy except in this case in bad English. Anynobody 00:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Alborz Fallah, as I said this thread isn't about the image, rather the rest of the site and its information like The Land Rover Jeep and Zorro's horse and articles like the one about Iran Air flight 655 which constantly refers to the USS Vincennes as the USS Vincent. Anynobody 03:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
More like "request for cluebat" rather than RS/N: should a leak that has been unconfirmed be used as a source in an article? Will ( talk) 16:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the best way to ask this question is to present the actual example where this occured to me: G. Edward Griffin has written a book about the Federal Reserve System. On the backside of the cover there are several comments, one of which is this:
Now my questions: Is this reliable information? Can it be used to claim that Ron Paul approved Griffin's analysis of the Fed? How do you cite such a comment? Can you verify the accuracy of the comment? Thanks for any replies. FeelFreeToBe ( talk) 16:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the question is rather: Is it reliable although it is self-published material? I'm asking because I don't see an easy way to verify the accuracy, unless the comment is taken from a larger review. FeelFreeToBe ( talk) 17:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Well... I don't think it is a self published source ... Paul didn't publish it, nor did someone working for him. I am also not sure what you mean by "verify the accuracy"... is there reason to doubt that Ron Paul actually wrote these words? Blueboar ( talk) 19:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone comment on the Origins Awards? Are they are a "reliable source" to demonstrate notability? Winning such an award is verifiable in a number of ways. A quick search of Google News on "Origins Award" and on "Academy of Adventure Gaming" (they are awarded by the Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts & Design) reveals some hits so it's at least moderately newsworthy. [29] [30] One newspaper apprarently says it's "the gaming equivalent of an Oscar" and so forth. A quick search on Google Scholar for "Origins Award" reveals a few hits (which I haven't really investigated them, was more curious to see what sort of results might be there). [31] Basically I've had this same conversation several times now and would like independent input so that I can avoid having it again in the future. There seems to be some disagreement as to whether winning this award is a true indicator of notability or is it simply a "trade award". (Of course, one could argue that the Oscars are simply a "trade award", given by people in the movie industry to others in the same industry). Cheers --Craw-daddy | T | 23:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)