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Are forum posts a reliable source for Wikipedia, such as on www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39a525043cb8.htm ? Various users are adding forum posts as RS here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Free_Republic&action=history and claiming they are RS-compliant. Lawrence Cohen 18:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Lawrence, they're obviously self-published sources. Anybody here could sign up and make comments there and what one person says is just a personal opinion -- which is the tiniest "minority opinion" there could be. Editors adding FreeRepublic posts as "reliable sources," should be told they're wrong and if they edit war, they should be blocked. It's a good thing you came here, Lawrence, but it's unfortunate that you'd actually have to come here for such an obvious violation of policy and it's pretty sad to see several editors here actually defend this vandalism. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, the existence of FreeRepublic is notable. What goes on there, however, is not. The "forum controversies" posted there belong on Encyclopedia Dramatica -- not here. I took a quick glance at the Daily Kos article (since it's a similar topic) and that article also seems to suffer from similar problems. A lot of that stuff isn't notable and needs to be cut down. Fortunately, the Kos article hasn't started being sourced with user comments. Any admin needs to just carry a big stick and beat all of the political pundit trolls down. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
OK I've read through most of this and I have to point out a few things. The article linked is in-fact an article about the internet forum itself. Self-published statements by a subject, presented as the views of that subject, are acceptable, provided they are not presented as facts or reveal certain personal information about living people. Imagine this scenario: We have an article on Anne Coulter and she has a blog where she says "Edwards is a faggot". We can certainly quote her, from her blog, on her article to show what her beliefs are. I see this case as similar. To present a "biography" of FreeRepublic it would be acceptable to quote posts from the board, presenting them as quotes of the board, not as facts. I'm open to having my mind changed on that. I'm not fully sure I'm interpreting policy correctly here, but this is my first stab at this new type of situation.
Wjhonson (
talk) 08:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
You're right, Wjhonson, but here's what we can't do:
Those are extreme hypothetical examples, though that's what somewhat seems to be going on. They're referencing "forum controversies," but who's to say that any of these controversies are notable and how can they be independently verified?
Political pundits on the left, such as the folks at Democratic Underground have been guilty of the former and political pundits on the right, such as Bill O'Reilly and Michelle Malkin have been guilty of the latter.
Also, looking at the article on Democratic Underground, again, I see the same nonsense. Any rouge admin just needs to carry a big stick and clean out the troll mobs. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 22:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes I agree with both your statements. We cannot analyze or synthecize the comments. We can quote them however. We can select, selection is an editorial process much like paraphrasing, joining, copyediting. We do not quote entire works, we select quotes. Now how do we reconcile that with the question of OR in the selection process? Here is how. Primary material can illustrate an issue brought forward by a secondary source. It cannot be used to introduce a brand-new issue. So if a verifiable, secondary source states that Free Republic is fascist, we could then point to certain posts to illustrate examples of that. If no secondary source states it, then we cannot. That's the basic approach. There's always fine-tuning on a case-by-case basis and with consensus. As far as commentary from both sides, imho I would quote both sides with attribution. This provides the basis of the situation, with a neutral point of view. As above, we must ensure that the *basic* issue has been mentioned in a secondary source. Wjhonson ( talk) 18:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Hell no. Freep postings are on roughly the same WP:RS level as witticisms in black marker on a bathroom stall. The only possible circumstances in which a Free Republic board posting might be a source would be if the posting itself was the subject of commentary in third-party reliable sources, or if the posting came from Free Republic admins and was sourced for an article about Free Republic. Otherwise, Wikipedia needs to treat this stuff like radioactive Kryptonite and stay far, far away. < eleland/ talk edits> 19:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Initially I've asked a similar question at the
policy village pump. After a quite fruitful discussion an editor suggested to ask here for expert answers on the reliability aspect of that particular question. For reference there's also a discussion about verifiability going on
here on the
WP:V Talk page.
Here goes. In the
EVE Online article an editor recently posted a link to a forum topic in the
EVE Aurora forums. Aurora is an organization that helps the developers and game masters of EVE Online organize in-game events. The question is whether we accept this source. Here is what the discussion over at the village pump brought.
We are talking about forums here. They are self-published content and therefore "largely not acceptable" as
WP:V puts it. The only exception could be content that has been also published by "reliable third-party publications". However, as a fellow editor pointed out, "There aren't going to be much if any paper sources." Or other forms of third-party publications for that matter. I would think that even if there are no other sources this forum is not a reliable source. What do you think about this? Do we accpet this source with regards to its reliability?
--
Aexus (
talk) 07:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
No, they aren't verifiable and they only represent the opinion of one person. Take a look. Like Wikis, forum posts can also be changed relatively quickly.
Just ask yourself, "WWBD?" (What would Britannica do?)
Can you really imagine a group of credible encyclopedia editors, sitting around a desk, with one of them using random results on Google or forum posts as reliable sources? Of course not.
If anybody else tells you otherwise, you should first attempt to change their minds through rational discussion invoking the assertions above. If they make vague appeals to relativism, subjectivism, absurdism and other sophistry, then you should ignore them. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for your opinions! The conclusion I take with me back into the
EVE Online article is that the Aurora forums do not meet Wikipedia's reliability standards as they are self-published content. They don't meet the reliability standards even if we consider that they're likely the only source for a statement - being the only source doesn't make them less of a self-published source. Thanks!
--
Aexus (
talk) 20:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
What constitutes an "independent third party source"?
I am considering requesting deletion review of a pair of articles on a pair of Guantanamo captives.
I've discussed this with the closing administrator. He or she said they didn't have a problem with considering Summary of Evidence memos complying with WP:VER. But he or she said that "these sources were clearly not independent or neutral."
I am going to assume that the closing admin, and others who have expressed this concern, were not aware that the Bush Presidency set up an independent body, the Office for the Administrative Review of Detained Enemy Combatants, which was under the oversight of a civilian, the " Designated Civilian Official", to administer the CSR Tribunals and Administrative Review Boards. Similarly, the staff who prepared the memos in question were not under the command of the JTF-GTMO Commandant.
I told the closing admin:
|
I'd welcome the opinion of others.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 16:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
"It is obvious that since OARDEC is staffed by military officers, and that the "civilian official" it reports to is a Deputy Secretary of Defense, it is not truly independent from the US military."
I forgot to ask, above -- I question the label several of my correspondents applied to these memos -- "primary sources". All of these Summary of Evidence memos were based on multiple documents. In some instances we know they were based on dozens of primary sources from over half a dozen other agencies. So why shouldn't we consider the summary memos "secondary sources"?
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 19:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Is Media Matters for America [MMfA] a reliable source? Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. I believe MMfA fails at least one of those elements.
I raise this because I recently saw an article making certain claims and citing mainly to MMfA or to other sources like it or worse. I was trying to determine the factual accuracy of the statements made in Wikipedia but I found the MMfA pages to be biased, one-sided, and confusing, as if they were covering for a lack of an ability to clearly support the assertions they were making. Since every MMfA cite linked suffered from the same defects, I felt that the editor who added them had not provided sources to prove the truth of the matter he/she inserted into the wiki article.
And the matter being asserted was one of racial hatred. A claim of racial hatred was being supported by several links to the MMfA articles as I have described them.
I thought incendiary statements of racial hatred should be removed if that cannot be supported, and the MMfA links did not provide that support for the reasons I gave. Further, one would think if racial hatred was involved, there would be main stream media sources to cite, as opposed to only MMfA. However, I did not want to remove the material without first asking here about MMfA.
I read the material here about MEMRI because that seems to most closely fit the MMfA situation, and MEMRI has not faired well so far.
So I seek input here before I take action to remove the MMfA links I saw. I feel this is especially necessary since some of the editors have in the past admitted bias against the subject of the wiki page, and they occasionally edit in a fashion that disfavors the wiki page's subject without reliable sources. So I know ahead of time if I remove the MMfA links I will become instant persona non grata, again. I am here to get my ducks in order.
Thank you for your input. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 23:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
No, they are an advocacy group, just like the right-wing Newsbusters and are not a reliable source. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 05:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree in part with Yilloslime: the first section of his analysis is correct to say that much of the time that Media Matters might be used as a source for some series of facts about a broadcast or newspaper article, it would be better to cite the original broadcast or article instead. As far as the notion that MM's opinions might not be notable, with a link to WP:N, it's important to realize here that WP:N is not the standard for inclusion of material within articles. As the guideline itself says, "These notability guidelines only pertain to the encyclopedic suitability of topics for articles but do not directly limit the content of articles." Some of MM's opinions are surely not worthy of inclusion, but EACH of their opinions should not be presumed unworthy just because of the source. It would be an absurd paradox to say that because a person or organization has a clear point of view or is partisan, we refuse to report on their opinion. We represent the opinions of partisans all the time here. Croctotheface ( talk) 21:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Advocacy sites are fine when they are used for one of both sides of an issue being presented. It's basic WP:NPOV here. What is the specific use being asked about? MilesAgain ( talk) 15:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering if a consensus can be reached on banning internet polls as reliable sources. I remember taking an advanced research methodology course during my graduate school days. The statistics professor outlined all the ways in which internet polls on places like CNN and local news sites are completely unreliable compared to the more professional polls conducted by mainstream newspapers and government organizations:
The top 4 reasons are:
There were a few other reasons why internet polls were unreliable, but these were the top points. I raise this issue because occassionally I come across WP articles where internet polls were cited or someone insists on using an intenet poll as represenative of what "people" must be thinking about something. When last I checked, this issue is not addressed in the reliable source gudelines. What do others think? J Readings ( talk) 00:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Over on the Gun Politics article, this book has been questioned as a non-reliable source. Kruschke, Earl R.. 'Gun Control - A Reference Handbook. ABC-CLIO Inc. 1995. ISBN 0-87436-695-X. I am curious of other editor's opinion on this. SaltyBoatr ( talk) 02:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Kruschke is a reliable source, SaltyBoatr. However, considering the fact that the article currently cites:
I think we have a lot more bad sources to worry about than that book from Kruschke. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 15:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I commented on the talkpage. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 15:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The particular issues here are controversial and inflammatory, but in the section header I've tried to summarize the general principle.
We have a paper from the National Science Foundation quoting CSICOP's listing of various topics as pseudoscience. Here is the passage (quote):
Is this a reliable source for the assertion that "The National Science Foundation lists homeopathy as a pseudoscience"? thanks, Jim Butler( talk) 09:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
This discussion is moot because CSICOP has, in the words of WP:V, "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy," and is thus a reliable source in its own right. MilesAgain ( talk) 15:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
No, Jim. You can't because it's a false claim. The NSF did not say that. The NSF cited a source which said that. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 18:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, before somebody says "verifiability, not truth." Yes, I know that. Don't insult my intelligence with such a cliche remark. What I mean is that according to WP:V, we should state what the sources themselves say. In this case, there is no source of NSF saying, "Pseudoscience is X." They simply invoke that definition in one of their papers, therefore the claim has not been verified.
It is a fairly reasonable definition, though. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 18:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
It is worth pointing out that, in addition to Akhilleus' noted additional instances above, similar language appears in the Science & Engineering Indicators reports from several other years. I do not think that it would be mischaracterizing the tone of the report to cite as such, though 'NSF SEIND cites ...' is more pedantically accurate. Eldereft ~( s) talk~ 08:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I've archived the previous version of this. No way am I editing a page when it takes 30 seconds for each letter to appear when I'm typing. You regulars really ought to know better than to let a page get to more than 500k in length. x_x Jtrainor ( talk) 04:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
This page has extensive problems with biased, POV sources that violate WP:REDFLAG, and there's an edit war going on over it; one editor is attempting to clean up material and sources that violate policies, and the WP:OWNers of the page are reverting everything he does. I've dropped by to aquire some outside input on the subject as to which sources/references in the article are reliable under the current policies. Hopefully doing this will help fix the ongoing problems there. Jtrainor ( talk) 04:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I've just looked over the talkpage, and it appears that the loci of the dispute are several quotes. The most prominent example accuses the US of financing state terrorism through aid to Israel and committing it by bombing Afghanistan. (The same quote also mentions the Palestinian "national liberation struggle".) I'm not sure that too exceptional a claim, but even so, its from a well-known peer-reviewed journal, and written apparently by a professor of international law who's prominent in the field. I have no opinion on the use of the quote, which must have been taken out of context because otherwise it sounds a little silly (or perhaps dated, to early in the Second intifada), but as far as the source goes, I don't think I can claim that it's anything but excellent. Relata refero ( talk) 18:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
This site is being used to support claims in a few different articles, notably Supercouple and List of supercouples. There has been discussion at Talk:List_of_supercouples#References.3F and Talk:Supercouple#OR_and_bad_sources, where admin Jossi ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has tried to point this out to no avail. From the site's own "About us" page - "All information displayed on the site is fan driven. The production team behind the website will keep our opinions and views restricted to such media as articles." [2] Pairadox ( talk) 08:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Blacklist it. MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#Proposed additions
You especially can't use fan-sites in WP:BLP. The site is also used on the articles on Kelly Monaco and Maurice Benard. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 18:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been added.
MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#ghthesoap.com
☯
Zenwhat (
talk) 18:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I proposed to add it but that addition was rejected. You'll just have to remove it and hope they don't linkfarm again, even though they probably will. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 06:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
A couple, not a whole lot, of user are using Futoncritic.com as some sort of bible when it comes to future episode airings. It's gotten to the point of problematic and the user has been told a number of times by various editors to stop using it. As she keeps insisting that it is reliable, I felt it was time to bring it here. (Thanks Pairadox for leading me here). See this comment [3] where apparently she believes you "can't get more reliable than the futon critic." The privacy policy at Futon critic seems to indicate that it's a pay to have your stuff site. I didn't think that counted as reliable sourcing. Can we discuss? IrishLass ( talk) 18:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. This is a tough one to answer. My first impression was to laugh and say, "Get rid of it," but I read they're about us page and it's somewhat convincing. They've been up for 10 years, they're good enough that they sell ads independently, they focus exclusively on TV information, and they do original stories. Wikipedia shouldn't discriminate against New media so long as it's reliable. The only thing I'd add is: Check to see if it's cited by reliable third-parties. FutonCritic on Google pops up 404k results, suggesting it's pretty widely-used, despite the silly name. About their privacy statement, I think you misunderstand it: They collect information from users to sign up on behalf of their clients, the advertisers. It's not like Digg where anybody can sign up and upload content. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
FYI, this section is fascinating here. Please read and weigh in there. An editor is asserting it could be OR and unacceptable to make an article from sources that wouldn't be readily available to everyone, or using old harder to find sources. Lawrence § t/ e 00:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
This is true. I.E., not too long ago I dealt with somebody trying to use a Korean newspaper that wasn't published in English or archived online. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 04:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a dicussion underway [Talk:Stormfront_%28website%29#What_the_hell_is_going_on_with_this_.22blog.22_thing.3F here] as to whether apparent blogs of the BBC and CNN are reliable sources, and also if an article from a reliable source ( New Times) that is hosted on a third party website is reliable. The relevant links are [4], [5] and [http://www.stormfront.org/dblack/racist_021998.htm]. Expert attention very much appreciated as it is a controversial article. Skomorokh confer 02:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I was going to post this in the ghthesoap.com section above, but decided to give this topic its own section. What about www.soapcentral.com? There really aren't many soap opera sites out there that Wikipedia considers reliable. Soapcentral.com, while some may call it a fansite, is extremely reliable, as seen with articles like As Strike Winds On, Soaps Are a Hot Commodity and WGA Takes Issue With Soap Opinion Column. And Wikipedia's soap opera articles rely heavily on it. It's right up there with soapoperadigest.com in its reliability and I'd like to get some feedback on it now, as I would hate to see it banned (you know, blacklisted) from Wikipedia without most of us who use it knowing. It's considered a reliable source by WikiProject Soap Operas. And it serves articles such as Todd Manning well, where some of the information may not be available elsewhere on the internet in reliable sources, and when access to magazine articles where the same information could be accessed is unavailable to the editor simply because they don't have or know about the article. I'm unaware of if this site has been brought here for discussion before, but I felt now was as good as time as any, if that isn't the case...and so I can know either way, considering that if it has been brought here for discussion before, I don't know about it. Flyer22 ( talk) 04:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is Muhammad Shamsaddin Megalommatis a WP:RS? He presents himself as: Orientalist, Assyriologist, Egyptologist, Iranologist, and Islamologist, Historian, Political Scientist, Dr. Megalommatis, 49, is the author of 12 books, dozens of scholarly articles, hundreds of encyclopedia entries, and thousands of articles. He speaks, reads and writes more than 15, modern and ancient, languages. [8] Now I personally don't think he is reliable, but some Wikipedians are trying to insert his articles as some sort of reliable source in various Wikipedia articles. Some of the articles he is currently featured in (as source, external link or otherwise): Anuak, Bibliography of the Darfur conflict, Kush, Colombia. Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL Google scholar only yields one hit. He seems like a fraud or a con-artist to me and should be excluded from all articles on Wikipedia. Some of the claims he has made are quite hilarious though: The Assyrian and Israelite Origin of the Northern Europeans and Americans does anyone really believe that? — EliasAlucard ( Discussion · contribs) 23:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is Mark Juergensmeyer a reliable source for the inclusion of N.Irish terrorism in Christian terrorism? He is a highly respected expert on religious terrorism, with hundreds of relevant publications to his name. The cited source in which he regards N.Ireland terrorism as religious in nature is published by the University of California Press. To quote WP:SOURCES "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks;" However, User:Mamalujo is arguing that Juergensmeyer is fringe and should be disregarded. I would welcome some other editors weighing in on Talk:Christian_terrorism. The contrast between the inclusion criteria for this article, where university published academics are rejected in order to shorten the list, and Islamic terrorism, where the views of general pundits are accepted, is a blatant violation of neutrality. Chris Bainbridge ( talk) 23:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
This is the easiest version of the source to access:
This is the academic vetting of the source:
Dr Daly's general credentials can probably be found here:
The source is being used to quote Dr Daly's overview of the monetary policy that is presently used in the United States.
Although the material used from the source has no derivation from any economic theory (it's just an observation of processes that are used nearly everyday in the US), an editor is particularly troubled by this source because of the general economic theories that Dr Daly subscribes to.
The editor accepts that the source was published in the manner recommended by WP:RS. However, the editor continues to contend (from their own personal knowledge) that Dr Daly is an unqualified source of any information pertaining to monetary economics, and, more specifically, that Dr Daly is unqualified to draw conclusions about US monetary policy. Despite the vetting of the source, the editor is unable to provide any academic publication that disputes Daly's conclusions about the costs of monetary policy in the US.
Is this source usable in ways that avoid any discussion involving economic theories? Is it proper to dispute the reliability of material within a source that has been published reliably, if none of the writer's peers make objections? BigK HeX ( talk) 14:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I've issued a posting on this matter about User:BigK HeX on WP:ANI. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 07:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Is Amazon.com a reliable source to prove the existance of merchandise? (as in Sasuke_Uchiha#Reception) - Malkinann ( talk) 02:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
*picard face-palm* ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Is MobyGames considered a reliable source for video games? -- Menti fisto 03:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
At Cloverfield (creature) various users have attempted to add that the "creature"'s name is "Clover" and other such details. The source of this comes from this website: [10]. It directs you to "click here for the production notes." That takes you to a page that has a list of quotations, but no mention of authorship, copyright, source, nor any verifiable set of information. The section that claims the crew believed the monster was called "Clover" is not quoted nor given a direct citation. The author of the page, "Jeff Giles" does not back up his data or cite sources, and that I believe he is a blogger, since he is posting in a user area for regular user critiques of movies, and that his homepage, according to [ [11]] is the continuation of his blog, " http://www.jefitoblog.com". I do not believe this meets Wikipedia verifiability, because there is no knowledge of the owner, no knowledge of the author, and the individual comment (the production crew calling the creature "clover") appears once and is not attributed to any one person, without any claims of its legitimacy. It appears that it is a piece of rumor inside an unverifiable source linked via a blog. Ottava Rima ( talk) 15:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Deindenting. Just noticed your edit summary, Ed; you're right, Paramount's coyness has been complicating matters. Let me put it this way: Giles is a regular contributor of content that Rotten Tomatoes stands behind as 'news'. If, in that article, he had merely taken a few chunks of information from the document as 'quotes' from the production notes, would that information have been usable, and that article considered a reliable source? And if so, why would a full document that RT (and a handful of other solid film sites) has said are (spoiler alert!) the film's production notes not be acceptable? Given that Giles is a reliable contributor to a reliable site, why isn't this particular contribution reliable, as well? -- Vary | Talk 19:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
By "everything" you mean that you didn't include context of the information, direct links, or even a link to the discussion it deals with, let alone not put it in the right forum? And there are only two editors. That is not a consensus. Ottava Rima ( talk) 19:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
To pitch in here, when Vary mentioned using production notes, I wasn't aware that he was referring to the ones at Cloverfield (creature). I had added information from the production notes myself, and I find it hard to believe that the production notes would be at all questionable. Reviewing the .doc, it's clearly the marketing packaging. It's also linked at ComingSoon.net and SciFi Japan. Really, there's no issue with citing this document. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 19:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
[12] Hoponpop69 ( talk) 01:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, can this: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=nwn2modulesenglish.Detail&id=75 be used as a source to show that there exists a NWN module based on the pen-and-paper module of the same name? Thanks. Hobit ( talk) 13:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted some outside input about this website. While it does have facilities for any person to offer reviews on products, there are also a set of "staff reviewers" [13]. It's unclear as to the exact procedure/qualifications about becoming a staff reviewer. I'm looking for input as to whether product reviews from these staff reviewers (not some random user) would be considered as reliable sources. This is partly stemming from the continuting disagreement (shall we say) on the references for Red Hand of Doom (and likely other articles). Thanks. --Craw-daddy | T | 15:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure this has likely been hashed over many times, but what are some general guidelines for online e-zines, mainly in terms of WP:V? I'm thinking of a magazine such as Pyramid which moved to a totally online format ten years ago (or so). The reliability, I think, isn't the issue as it's published by Steve Jackson Games (focussing on the gaming/role-playing game market). There were about 30 issues printed on paper, but now it's completely online and subscription-based. So in other words, any material quoted from an article can be verfied by someone else that also has a subscription, but not necessarily *any* Joe Q. Public. I would think this is considered as verfiable, similar to a (smaller-town) newspaper, for example. (I could verify something that appeared five years ago in the Poughkeepsie Journal, for example, but it might not be so easy to do, and it might cost me some money to do so, I haven't thoroughly searched their site to see if their archives are available and/or if it's a service that I would have to pay for.) --Craw-daddy | T | 15:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Is Irfan Shahid a WP:RS? He has a Bachelor of Arts from Harvard and a Ph.D from Princeton, [14] which should make him a reliable source. However, some of his claims seem to be political in nature and suspicious. For instance, he has apparently claimed that Julia Domna was of Arabic descent, and her father, of Arabic descent. At the time, in Syria (where Julia was born), the region had barely any Arabs and the lingua franca of the area was Syriac (a dialect of Aramaic). I've Googled and found nowhere else, any mention of Julia Domna being of Arabic descent. It was after the Muslim Conquest when Arabs became more dominant in Syria. During the dominance of Graeco-Roman times, Arabs were of no importance in Syria. Shahid might be some kind of Arab nationalist or something, who is trying to Arabize history in conformity with the current Arab nationalist regime of Syria. What do you guys make out of this? — EliasAlucard ( Discussion · contribs) 09:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
A book that specifically discusses Arabs in the Byzantine world, published by Harvard University Press, and part of an extremely influential series reviewed favourably in the Journal of the American Oriental Society, the Journal of Roman Studies, and four or five others? Why is this even being questioned? Relata refero ( talk) 10:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
(deindent)I dont have the Shahid book in front of me, but the citations of it indicate that, among other things, he studied the etymology of her name, the content of edicts, and so on. It doesn't really matter: what matters is that there are several unimpeachable sources, and that, in fact, the Shahid book is frequently quoted in reference to the bios of Julia Domna and her descendants. Have a look at various biographical dictionaries. Relata refero ( talk) 11:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Daniel Pipes is a prominent political commentator, so presumably his opinions may be cited (with proper attribution) when they appear in newspapers, books, and other similar sources. However, should opinions published on his blog be permitted in Wikipedia articles? In particular, on the Prophet of Doom article, this blog post was used as a source for the statement that "Muslim agitators have circulated a petition to have the book banned and censored" (stated without qualification) as well as Pipes' own opinion on the subject. The group allegedly circulating this petition, Islamic Educational and Cultural Research Center, doesn't even have an article on Wikipedia and there is no evidence that the group or petition was notable. Anyone can start an online petition. Under WP:V, blogs are generally considered to be unreliable sources, but someone insists on putting this back in again and again, arguing that Pipes' "opinion on the subject is inherently notable." *** Crotalus *** 04:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I forgot to ask, above -- I question the label several of my correspondents applied to these memos -- "primary sources". All of these Summary of Evidence memos were based on multiple documents. In some instances we know they were based on dozens of primary sources from over half a dozen other agencies. So why shouldn't we consider the summary memos "secondary sources"?
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 19:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
For the Project Chanology article, a very useful source would be a radio interview that was conducted on January 30, 2008. Now, this radio inteview was not archived and made available in an official capacity on the radio station's website. On the other hand, certain listeners recorded the interview in MP3 format, and hosted it on their own sites, so the interview, completely unedited, can be found online, including at such places as this link: [17] (there are others as well, all unofficial)
My question is, is this interview a Reliable Source? It was conducted by a mainstream member of the media and broadcast to a large recieving audience, but is only available online in an unofficial capacity. I assume that any researching graduate student would be able to contact the radio station (assuming we cite the radio station properly, which is par for the course) and obtain a copy that way, just like a reasearcher would be able to contact, say, the New York Times for a back issue. The New York Times is, of course, available online and this is not, but why should online availability factor in?
Comments please? Fieari ( talk) 23:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello folks, a few questions have arisen on the Ilchi Lee talk page about use of court documents as reliable sources, specifically under two circumstances: First, when posted second-hand on a site that is not agreed to be a legitimate source itself. Second, when available only by calling the county to request a copy through the mail. Does anyone have any information about how to judge the verifiability and reliability of official documents in these cases? Thanks! Forestgarden ( talk) 04:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
What do you think of this? [18]-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back ( talk) 14:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Makes sense. I got rid of the reference, but I placed the wiktionary template near the lead paragraph (since the lead paragraph discusses the definition of the word at length).-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back ( talk) 14:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Separately: How would one detect and thus discriminate between polemic, apologetic and "objective" sources? (Each side would call their favored sources "objective".)-- Blue Tie ( talk) 11:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the tendency for certain sources to be prone to poor fact-checking and bias is a part of WP:RS. In that regard, objectivity is relevant. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this page from the Humane Society a reliable source to include this sentence in the article on Polar bear?: "The result of the effects of global warming are thinner bears, a decrease in reproduction rates, and lower survival rates in juvenile bears." Torc2 ( talk) 19:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Is Professor Dr. Zaghloul. R. M. EL-NAGGAR a reliable source? According to his CV, he has been professor King Fahd University of Petroleum & Minerals, Kuwait University, King Saud University and Qatar University. He has also been research assistant at University College of Wales and Robertson Research Laboratories. Bless sins ( talk) 05:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
ROFL, what a horrible last name. Bless sins, did you really have to put it all in caps, lol. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 08:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Where do you want to quote him? Relata refero ( talk) 15:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Another editor and I are having a disagreement as to whether the MySpace links are reliable. I know that MySpace is not a reliable source, but I can't convince this other editor of that. Could I get some supporting arguments and other eyes here? Corvus cornix talk 06:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay this guy really needs to let this go now. First of all, I have been doing this for 2 years now and nothing has EVER been reverted on this page. This guy won't let up and has gone so far now as to open this up for no reason at all. Secondly, the "non-reliable" sources that he is claiming that we are using are in fact from OFFICIAL sites with OFFICIAL information straight from the tour. This has become nothing but a petty showing on this editor's part. DX927 ( talk) 06:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Myspace is definitely not considered a reliable source. That said, I think Bradeos Graphon is over-stating the unreliability of primary sources. Priamary sources most definitely can be reliable. The relevant policy statements here are WP:SPS and WP:PSTS (sub-sections of WP:V and WP:NOR respectively). The use of primary sources are somewhat limited, and they should be used with caution... but they can be used. It really depends on the nature of the statement you are backing with the source. Blueboar ( talk) 15:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
A somewhat dicey question, so I'm bringing it here for ideas.
Looking through a couple of articles on Indian ethnicities and castes, I noticed that a large number of them, particularly on various kinds of Brahmins, are heavily dependent on a particular reference. The reference in question is usually given as "A History of Brahmin Clans (Brāhmaṇa Vaṃshõ kā Itihāsa), in Hindi, by Dorilāl Śarmā,published by Rāśtriya Brāhamana Mahāsabhā, Vimal Building, Jamirābād, Mitranagar, Masūdābād, Aligarh-1, 2nd ed-1998". The usual reference is usually followed by the line "This Hindi book contains the most exhaustive list of Brahmana gotras and pravaras together their real and mythological histories." Almost all of the cites have been added by User:Vinay Jha sometime last year.
Now I can't find a reference to this book or Dorilal Sharma anywhere, though I admit my ability to look through Hindi RSes isn't the best. It doesn't seem to be published by an authentic academic publisher, but by a communirty organisation. I don't think the latter is particularly notable either - there's a political party called the "Brahmin Mahasabha" in the relevant state, and lots of smaller towns have their own caste-based associations generally called mahasabhas, but I don't know of, and cannot discover antecedents for, this one.
Further, Dorilal Sharma doesn't seem to be a particularly well-known scholar, subject to the same constraints I mentioned earlier.(As in, I can't find him at all. I can't even find him on WorldCat.)
Now, normally I would have gone ahead and removed this and excised whatever material was dependent upon it, but I am far from sure in this case. Subject to the normal corrections of wording involved in ensuring that it is crystal clear what is traditionally assumed and what is historically known, it doesn't seem that any particularly broad claims are made with reference to the book. It may not sound 100% right to me, but I don't claim to have a perfect intuition about these things.
In addition, an undeniable fact is that the articles seem to me at least to be more informative and encyclopaedic thanks to a solid rewriting heavily dependent on this book; Here's a revision of a typical article just before User:Vinay Jha started editing, and here's the revision when he's done.
So I'm torn. I've seen some of these caste-based histories, and a lot of them are truly awful - one on Agrasena and the Agarwals still gives me nightmares - but I cannot be certain that this is one of them. It appears that the editor who used the source has largely stopped editing, but I'm leaving a note on the talkpage anyway. In the meantime, some suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Relata refero ( talk) 18:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Right now the only source for this article is an "official" forum press release. I don't think its a reliable source, per our usual guidelines on web forums, but wanted to check here before I used it as a basis for an AfD. MBisanz talk 21:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been accused of vandalism because I have repeatedly removed poor quality (IMHO) references to recrds sales. THe matter has been discussed on the discussion page and most who have commented agree, and yet a few editors keep added these links. A similar dispute on the Pink Floyd entry has quietened down recently with the accepted Reliable Source link still in place.
I'm not prepared to carry on reverting this to what I believe is a valid entry without some back up from more senior users - or to be told that those links do meet the standard! -- C Hawke ( talk) 16:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Sigh. I don't know what you can do, man. There are more anon IPs than you. They aren't discussing the edit with you either, am I right? And the link is obvious nonsense. You won't be able to get the page semi-protected to stop this. And if you edit-war, you'll get blocked. That's how Wikipedia works.
My suggestion: Let them have the page. There's nothing else you can do. And instead focus instead on helping others with WP:RS problems and reforming policy to help deal with this kind of thing. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
-- C Hawke ( talk) 20:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
82.131.201.136 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has done a spamming spree on anime-related articles. The spam link, http://www.animeisland.extra.hu/index.php?x=animek/, is a non-English (appears German) fansite and I would like to see it blacklisted. If this is the wrong noticeboard, could someone point me to the correct one? Lord Sesshomaru ( talk • edits) 18:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
At Seattle Parks and Recreation, someone seems to be unhappy that the extent of the Seattle parks system (acreage, number of parks, number of golf courses, etc.) is the Department itself rather than a third party. Given that I've never heard of anyone seriously calling the department's veracity into question, it's really hard to imagine what other source could be more reliable than the department itself. I would imagine that any other "usually reliable source" would simply be reproducing the department's own numbers. - Jmabel | Talk 19:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Can the Citizendium wiki be used as a RS as in this edit [20]?-- Hughgr ( talk) 23:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Citizendium seems to be one gigantic POV-fork to me. The articles I have read a mostly rubbish that wouldn't be allowed on wikipedia. It shouldn't be RS and I strongly doubt it should be an external link unless in unusual cases. If there is anything worth linking, then it can be linked directly, not via Citizendium. Mccready ( talk) 03:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The aforementioned book is being used as a citation for the incident where Rush Limbaugh allegedly joked that Chelsea clinton was the 'whitehouse dog'. Limbaugh claims it was a technical error; others claim it was intentional. The problem i see is that the book is not a reliable source for the facts of the incident. the book is a collection of political commentary and satire; it's a polemic about all things not-liberal, so claims about what did or did not actually happen (and i know of no truly reliable source for these details) fall into the realm of opinion, not fact. thoughts? Anastrophe ( talk) 22:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
OK... I think some context is needed here for people to comment correctly... first, the book is not being used to back the fact that Limbaugh said Chelsea was a dog... it is being used to back his statement that this was a technical error. In this case it is acceptable... the book is where he says this. What has occurred is that people have added commentary to that blunt statement. Here are some of the diffs to show what the situation is: Originally the citation was an acceptable use of the source... Limbaugh says the comment was an error, and the citation is where he says it. We then get this edit, which added commentary not found in the book. Things go back and forth a bit, until this edit removes both the comment and the citation. To me it is obvious that the original version is correct here... Limbaugh said it, so we should cite where he said it. The question of whether Limbaugh's statement is credible or not is a different issue, and needs its own citations to be included. Blueboar ( talk) 03:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Who thinks this is a suitable Wiki source for a representative take on the opinions of science educators. [22] I draw your attention to: 1) Global Warming being included on the list of pseudosciences on the page cited above (as is naturism) and here as well [23]; 2) their definition of life/death [24]; and their guide to getting rid of swallows. [25] TheLaPesca ( talk) 00:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm questioning the reliability of:
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)for the purpose of quoting the last paragraph, [Jones] "is sometimes described as a "conspiracy theorist." He regularly rails against globalism, the United Nations and World Bank on satellite and Internet radio." This is background information about a person not the subject of the news article, and is probably only vetted for "can anyone sue us for this", rather than for accuracy. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Although I have been reverting vandalism for a while, I haven't really ever needed to report anything on a noticeboard, so pardon me if I'm not reporting this correctly.
Recently, I noticed a bunch of users posting very similar content on various tobacco-related articles. The content seems to possibly be sublimely advertising for 3 specific brands: Bugler, Top, and Kite. Here's some of the affected articles: Top Tobacco, Roll-your-own, Bugler (tobacco). There's a bunch more floating around.
Each article has a slightly different version of the text. Many contain phrases such as "Since the beginning of the 21st Century" or "roll your own tobacco" or "#1 selling tobacco" somewhere in the article.
Other editors have marked some of these pages as needing sources, or some cleaning up. Is it possible that a ring of sockpuppets is doing this? Or is it just one user? It's hard for me to tell. — ThreeDee912 ( talk) 00:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Heya, Im one of the mediators for the current case that this page is involved in and i wanted to check peoples opinions on whether these sources are seen as reliable?
The way that these sources are intended to be used by a user is to gives the names of translators that are supposed to have translated the NWT. Now the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (the publisher of he NWT) has not released the names of the translators themselves, the information comes from 2 former members of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. The first William Cetnar, and the second Raymond Franz.
The Primay Sources are as follows:
“From my observation, N. H. Knorr, born 4/23/1905, baptized Cedar Point, OH, and died 6/5/1977 age 72; F. W. Franz 4th President born 1893, Albert D. Schroeder. G. D. Gangas, and M. Henschel met together in these translation sessions. Aside from Vice-President Franz (and his training was limited), none of the committee members had adequate schooling or background to function as critical Bible translators. Franz’s ability to do a scholarly job of translating Hebrew is open to serious question since he never formally studied Hebrew.” (Gruss E, We Left The Jehovah’s Witnesses, 1974, p. 68)
“The New World Translation bears no translator’s name and is presented as the anonymous work of the “New World Translation Committee.” Other members of that committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas. Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew.” (Franz R, Crisis of Conscience Third Edition, Commentary Press, 2000: 54)
The Secondary Sources are as follows:
“In view of the broad censure this translation has received from renowned biblical linguistic scholars, it is not surprising tht the Watchtower has always resisted efforts to identity members of the translation committee. The claim was that they preferred to remain anonymous and humble, giving God the glory. However, such anonymity also prevented scholars from checking their credentials.
“When defector Raymond Franz finally revealed the identity of the translators (Nathan Knorr, Frederick Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel), it quickly became apparent that the committee was completely unqualified for the task. Four of the five men in the committee had no Hebrew of Greek training and, in fact, had only a high school education. The fifty—Frederick Franz—claimed to know Hebrew and Greek, but upon examination under oath in a court of law in Edinburgh, Scotland, was found to fail a simple Hebrew test.” . (Rhodes R, The Challenge of the Cults and New Religions, The Essential Guide to Their History, Their Doctrine, and Our Response, Zondervan, 2001, p. 94)
“From this pompous pronouncement it is only too evident that the Watchtower considers its “scholars” the superiors of such great scholars as Wycliffe and Tyndale, not to mention the hundreds of brilliant, conscecrated Christian scholars who produced the subsequent orthodox translations. Such a pretext is of course too absurd to merit refutation, but let it be remembered that the New World Bible translation committee had no known translators with recognized degrees in Greek of Hebrew exegesis or translation. While the members of the committee have never been identified officially by the Watchtower, many Witnesses who worked at the headquarters during the translation period were fully aware of who the members were. They included Nathan H. Knorr (president of the Society at the time), Frederick W. Franz (who later succeeded Knorr as president), Albert D. Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel (currently the president). None of these men had any university education except Franz, who left school after two years, never completing even an undergraduate degree. In fact, Frederick W. Franz, then representing the translation committee and later serving as the Watchtower Society’s fourth president, admitted under oath that he could not translate Genesis 2:4 from the Hebrew.” (Martin W, Kingdom of the Cults, Expanded Anniversary Edition, October 1997, Bethany House Publishers, p. 123)
“The Society states that the names of the translators of the NWT have never been made public to ensure that all the glory goes to God and none to man [Proclaimers p. 608 note]. While this is no doubt most laudable it has two not so laudable riders - (i) that the credentials of the translators can never be checked, and (ii) that there would be nobody to assume responsibility for the translation.
“The translators' names, however, have never been a total secret. William Cetnar, who was working in the Brooklyn Bethel (the Society's International Headquarters) in 1950 when the work was first begun, and whose story can be found in Edmond Gruss' book We Left Jehovah's Witnesses, states that the names were well known to be Nathan Homer Knorr (the then president), Frederick William Franz (vice-president and president from 1977), Albert D Schroeder, George D Gangas and Milton G Henschel, all high-ranking Society officials and later members of the Governing Body. It is Cetnar's opinion that no one but Franz, whose training was limited, had had any adequate schooling or background to function as critical Bible translators. The following, cited in We Left Jehovah's Witnesses (pp. 74-5), supports this view.
“From the Scottish Court of Sessions, November 1954:
“(The attorney) Q. Have you also made yourself familiar with Hebrew? (Franz) A. Yes… Q. So that you have a substantial linguistic apparatus at your command? A. Yes, for use in my biblical work. Q. I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German and French? A. Yes. [Pursuer's Proof, p. 7] Q. You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you? A. I do not speak Hebrew. Q. You do not? A. No. Q. Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew? A. Which? Q. That fourth verse of second chapter of Genesis? A. You mean here? Q. Yes? A. No. I wouldn't attempt to do that. [Pursuer's Proof, pp.102,103].” (Tony Piper, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, published online by Reachout Trust)
“On thing which has brought much criticism of the New World Translation is that that New World Translation Committee has refused since 1950 to reveal the names and academic credentials of its members. Of course, this has very little to do with the quality of the translation itself which deserves to be examined on the basis of its own merits rather than on who and what its translators were or were not. It may be, however, that the anonymity for the committee reflects more than a spirit of humility among its members. From page 50 of Crisis of Conscience Raymond Franz states that the members of it were his uncle, Frederick Franz, Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder, and George Gangas. Then he notes: ‘Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt [a] translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati, but was only self taught in Hebrew.’ So to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man—Frederick Franz.” (Penton J, Apocalypse Delayed Second Edition, University of Toronto Press, 1999, p. 173-4)
“The New World Translation committee consisted of four members of the Jehovah’s Witness religious sect. Their names and scholarly qualifications are as follows: Nathan Knorr: President of the Watchtower Society (no academic training in any Biblical language) Fred Franz: (no academic degree in any Biblical language, though he did study Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati) Albert Schroeder: (no academic training in any Biblical language) George Gangas: (no academic training in any Biblical language)” (Mike Spencer, The New World Translation: God's Word?, published online by Spiritwatch Ministries)
“The publisher of this version has never made public the names of the translators. But former members of the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization have identified the members of the committee as Nathan H. Knorr (President of the organization), Frederick W. Franz (Vice-President), George D. Gangas, and Albert D. Schroeder. According to Raymond V. Franz, the "principal translator of the Society's New World Translation" was Frederick W. Franz. (1) According to M. James Penton, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man, Frederick Franz." (2) Franz afterwards became the President of the organization, from 1977 to 1992, and was responsible for the revisions.” (Michael Marlowe editor, The New World Translation, published online by Bible Research)
There is currently an RfC on this but i felt it might be of more gain to ask here as this page is source specific and i wanted a wider community opinion on this. Thank you for your time on this. Seddon69 ( talk) 00:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
BE TA 14:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A few things. I'll repeat my belief that this detailed material really deserves it's own seperate article. Much of the above should be presented, but doing so in the main article would be imho undue weight. The article now doesn't seem to even mention that there's a controversy. Next, of the above, the works should be checked for, are the works published by a third-party, not self-published. Are the authors polemic, extreme, do they make bizarre claims? Do any of the works give a balanced overview? Or is each one a diatribe? If you feel that you must narrow the scope to one or two sources, than the more balanced and neutral ones should be used. Wjhonson ( talk) 17:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
So I've done a good deal of work on Hofstra University related topics. At Talk:Frank G. Zarb School of Business an anon. IP is asking about adding a ranking of the school since he received an MS there and has this source [26]. Normally I wouldn't hesitate to make a call and put it in or not, but I'm an MBA student there now. While its a big university, I'm thinking that something as narrow as MBA rankings for the program I'm in, is probably a COI. So is this source reliable or not and how should it be phrased if it is. MBisanz talk 21:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Are forum posts a reliable source for Wikipedia, such as on www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39a525043cb8.htm ? Various users are adding forum posts as RS here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Free_Republic&action=history and claiming they are RS-compliant. Lawrence Cohen 18:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Lawrence, they're obviously self-published sources. Anybody here could sign up and make comments there and what one person says is just a personal opinion -- which is the tiniest "minority opinion" there could be. Editors adding FreeRepublic posts as "reliable sources," should be told they're wrong and if they edit war, they should be blocked. It's a good thing you came here, Lawrence, but it's unfortunate that you'd actually have to come here for such an obvious violation of policy and it's pretty sad to see several editors here actually defend this vandalism. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, the existence of FreeRepublic is notable. What goes on there, however, is not. The "forum controversies" posted there belong on Encyclopedia Dramatica -- not here. I took a quick glance at the Daily Kos article (since it's a similar topic) and that article also seems to suffer from similar problems. A lot of that stuff isn't notable and needs to be cut down. Fortunately, the Kos article hasn't started being sourced with user comments. Any admin needs to just carry a big stick and beat all of the political pundit trolls down. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
OK I've read through most of this and I have to point out a few things. The article linked is in-fact an article about the internet forum itself. Self-published statements by a subject, presented as the views of that subject, are acceptable, provided they are not presented as facts or reveal certain personal information about living people. Imagine this scenario: We have an article on Anne Coulter and she has a blog where she says "Edwards is a faggot". We can certainly quote her, from her blog, on her article to show what her beliefs are. I see this case as similar. To present a "biography" of FreeRepublic it would be acceptable to quote posts from the board, presenting them as quotes of the board, not as facts. I'm open to having my mind changed on that. I'm not fully sure I'm interpreting policy correctly here, but this is my first stab at this new type of situation.
Wjhonson (
talk) 08:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
You're right, Wjhonson, but here's what we can't do:
Those are extreme hypothetical examples, though that's what somewhat seems to be going on. They're referencing "forum controversies," but who's to say that any of these controversies are notable and how can they be independently verified?
Political pundits on the left, such as the folks at Democratic Underground have been guilty of the former and political pundits on the right, such as Bill O'Reilly and Michelle Malkin have been guilty of the latter.
Also, looking at the article on Democratic Underground, again, I see the same nonsense. Any rouge admin just needs to carry a big stick and clean out the troll mobs. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 22:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes I agree with both your statements. We cannot analyze or synthecize the comments. We can quote them however. We can select, selection is an editorial process much like paraphrasing, joining, copyediting. We do not quote entire works, we select quotes. Now how do we reconcile that with the question of OR in the selection process? Here is how. Primary material can illustrate an issue brought forward by a secondary source. It cannot be used to introduce a brand-new issue. So if a verifiable, secondary source states that Free Republic is fascist, we could then point to certain posts to illustrate examples of that. If no secondary source states it, then we cannot. That's the basic approach. There's always fine-tuning on a case-by-case basis and with consensus. As far as commentary from both sides, imho I would quote both sides with attribution. This provides the basis of the situation, with a neutral point of view. As above, we must ensure that the *basic* issue has been mentioned in a secondary source. Wjhonson ( talk) 18:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Hell no. Freep postings are on roughly the same WP:RS level as witticisms in black marker on a bathroom stall. The only possible circumstances in which a Free Republic board posting might be a source would be if the posting itself was the subject of commentary in third-party reliable sources, or if the posting came from Free Republic admins and was sourced for an article about Free Republic. Otherwise, Wikipedia needs to treat this stuff like radioactive Kryptonite and stay far, far away. < eleland/ talk edits> 19:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Initially I've asked a similar question at the
policy village pump. After a quite fruitful discussion an editor suggested to ask here for expert answers on the reliability aspect of that particular question. For reference there's also a discussion about verifiability going on
here on the
WP:V Talk page.
Here goes. In the
EVE Online article an editor recently posted a link to a forum topic in the
EVE Aurora forums. Aurora is an organization that helps the developers and game masters of EVE Online organize in-game events. The question is whether we accept this source. Here is what the discussion over at the village pump brought.
We are talking about forums here. They are self-published content and therefore "largely not acceptable" as
WP:V puts it. The only exception could be content that has been also published by "reliable third-party publications". However, as a fellow editor pointed out, "There aren't going to be much if any paper sources." Or other forms of third-party publications for that matter. I would think that even if there are no other sources this forum is not a reliable source. What do you think about this? Do we accpet this source with regards to its reliability?
--
Aexus (
talk) 07:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
No, they aren't verifiable and they only represent the opinion of one person. Take a look. Like Wikis, forum posts can also be changed relatively quickly.
Just ask yourself, "WWBD?" (What would Britannica do?)
Can you really imagine a group of credible encyclopedia editors, sitting around a desk, with one of them using random results on Google or forum posts as reliable sources? Of course not.
If anybody else tells you otherwise, you should first attempt to change their minds through rational discussion invoking the assertions above. If they make vague appeals to relativism, subjectivism, absurdism and other sophistry, then you should ignore them. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for your opinions! The conclusion I take with me back into the
EVE Online article is that the Aurora forums do not meet Wikipedia's reliability standards as they are self-published content. They don't meet the reliability standards even if we consider that they're likely the only source for a statement - being the only source doesn't make them less of a self-published source. Thanks!
--
Aexus (
talk) 20:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
What constitutes an "independent third party source"?
I am considering requesting deletion review of a pair of articles on a pair of Guantanamo captives.
I've discussed this with the closing administrator. He or she said they didn't have a problem with considering Summary of Evidence memos complying with WP:VER. But he or she said that "these sources were clearly not independent or neutral."
I am going to assume that the closing admin, and others who have expressed this concern, were not aware that the Bush Presidency set up an independent body, the Office for the Administrative Review of Detained Enemy Combatants, which was under the oversight of a civilian, the " Designated Civilian Official", to administer the CSR Tribunals and Administrative Review Boards. Similarly, the staff who prepared the memos in question were not under the command of the JTF-GTMO Commandant.
I told the closing admin:
|
I'd welcome the opinion of others.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 16:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
"It is obvious that since OARDEC is staffed by military officers, and that the "civilian official" it reports to is a Deputy Secretary of Defense, it is not truly independent from the US military."
I forgot to ask, above -- I question the label several of my correspondents applied to these memos -- "primary sources". All of these Summary of Evidence memos were based on multiple documents. In some instances we know they were based on dozens of primary sources from over half a dozen other agencies. So why shouldn't we consider the summary memos "secondary sources"?
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 19:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Is Media Matters for America [MMfA] a reliable source? Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. I believe MMfA fails at least one of those elements.
I raise this because I recently saw an article making certain claims and citing mainly to MMfA or to other sources like it or worse. I was trying to determine the factual accuracy of the statements made in Wikipedia but I found the MMfA pages to be biased, one-sided, and confusing, as if they were covering for a lack of an ability to clearly support the assertions they were making. Since every MMfA cite linked suffered from the same defects, I felt that the editor who added them had not provided sources to prove the truth of the matter he/she inserted into the wiki article.
And the matter being asserted was one of racial hatred. A claim of racial hatred was being supported by several links to the MMfA articles as I have described them.
I thought incendiary statements of racial hatred should be removed if that cannot be supported, and the MMfA links did not provide that support for the reasons I gave. Further, one would think if racial hatred was involved, there would be main stream media sources to cite, as opposed to only MMfA. However, I did not want to remove the material without first asking here about MMfA.
I read the material here about MEMRI because that seems to most closely fit the MMfA situation, and MEMRI has not faired well so far.
So I seek input here before I take action to remove the MMfA links I saw. I feel this is especially necessary since some of the editors have in the past admitted bias against the subject of the wiki page, and they occasionally edit in a fashion that disfavors the wiki page's subject without reliable sources. So I know ahead of time if I remove the MMfA links I will become instant persona non grata, again. I am here to get my ducks in order.
Thank you for your input. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 23:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
No, they are an advocacy group, just like the right-wing Newsbusters and are not a reliable source. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 05:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree in part with Yilloslime: the first section of his analysis is correct to say that much of the time that Media Matters might be used as a source for some series of facts about a broadcast or newspaper article, it would be better to cite the original broadcast or article instead. As far as the notion that MM's opinions might not be notable, with a link to WP:N, it's important to realize here that WP:N is not the standard for inclusion of material within articles. As the guideline itself says, "These notability guidelines only pertain to the encyclopedic suitability of topics for articles but do not directly limit the content of articles." Some of MM's opinions are surely not worthy of inclusion, but EACH of their opinions should not be presumed unworthy just because of the source. It would be an absurd paradox to say that because a person or organization has a clear point of view or is partisan, we refuse to report on their opinion. We represent the opinions of partisans all the time here. Croctotheface ( talk) 21:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Advocacy sites are fine when they are used for one of both sides of an issue being presented. It's basic WP:NPOV here. What is the specific use being asked about? MilesAgain ( talk) 15:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering if a consensus can be reached on banning internet polls as reliable sources. I remember taking an advanced research methodology course during my graduate school days. The statistics professor outlined all the ways in which internet polls on places like CNN and local news sites are completely unreliable compared to the more professional polls conducted by mainstream newspapers and government organizations:
The top 4 reasons are:
There were a few other reasons why internet polls were unreliable, but these were the top points. I raise this issue because occassionally I come across WP articles where internet polls were cited or someone insists on using an intenet poll as represenative of what "people" must be thinking about something. When last I checked, this issue is not addressed in the reliable source gudelines. What do others think? J Readings ( talk) 00:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Over on the Gun Politics article, this book has been questioned as a non-reliable source. Kruschke, Earl R.. 'Gun Control - A Reference Handbook. ABC-CLIO Inc. 1995. ISBN 0-87436-695-X. I am curious of other editor's opinion on this. SaltyBoatr ( talk) 02:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Kruschke is a reliable source, SaltyBoatr. However, considering the fact that the article currently cites:
I think we have a lot more bad sources to worry about than that book from Kruschke. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 15:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I commented on the talkpage. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 15:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The particular issues here are controversial and inflammatory, but in the section header I've tried to summarize the general principle.
We have a paper from the National Science Foundation quoting CSICOP's listing of various topics as pseudoscience. Here is the passage (quote):
Is this a reliable source for the assertion that "The National Science Foundation lists homeopathy as a pseudoscience"? thanks, Jim Butler( talk) 09:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
This discussion is moot because CSICOP has, in the words of WP:V, "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy," and is thus a reliable source in its own right. MilesAgain ( talk) 15:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
No, Jim. You can't because it's a false claim. The NSF did not say that. The NSF cited a source which said that. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 18:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, before somebody says "verifiability, not truth." Yes, I know that. Don't insult my intelligence with such a cliche remark. What I mean is that according to WP:V, we should state what the sources themselves say. In this case, there is no source of NSF saying, "Pseudoscience is X." They simply invoke that definition in one of their papers, therefore the claim has not been verified.
It is a fairly reasonable definition, though. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 18:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
It is worth pointing out that, in addition to Akhilleus' noted additional instances above, similar language appears in the Science & Engineering Indicators reports from several other years. I do not think that it would be mischaracterizing the tone of the report to cite as such, though 'NSF SEIND cites ...' is more pedantically accurate. Eldereft ~( s) talk~ 08:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I've archived the previous version of this. No way am I editing a page when it takes 30 seconds for each letter to appear when I'm typing. You regulars really ought to know better than to let a page get to more than 500k in length. x_x Jtrainor ( talk) 04:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
This page has extensive problems with biased, POV sources that violate WP:REDFLAG, and there's an edit war going on over it; one editor is attempting to clean up material and sources that violate policies, and the WP:OWNers of the page are reverting everything he does. I've dropped by to aquire some outside input on the subject as to which sources/references in the article are reliable under the current policies. Hopefully doing this will help fix the ongoing problems there. Jtrainor ( talk) 04:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I've just looked over the talkpage, and it appears that the loci of the dispute are several quotes. The most prominent example accuses the US of financing state terrorism through aid to Israel and committing it by bombing Afghanistan. (The same quote also mentions the Palestinian "national liberation struggle".) I'm not sure that too exceptional a claim, but even so, its from a well-known peer-reviewed journal, and written apparently by a professor of international law who's prominent in the field. I have no opinion on the use of the quote, which must have been taken out of context because otherwise it sounds a little silly (or perhaps dated, to early in the Second intifada), but as far as the source goes, I don't think I can claim that it's anything but excellent. Relata refero ( talk) 18:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
This site is being used to support claims in a few different articles, notably Supercouple and List of supercouples. There has been discussion at Talk:List_of_supercouples#References.3F and Talk:Supercouple#OR_and_bad_sources, where admin Jossi ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has tried to point this out to no avail. From the site's own "About us" page - "All information displayed on the site is fan driven. The production team behind the website will keep our opinions and views restricted to such media as articles." [2] Pairadox ( talk) 08:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Blacklist it. MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#Proposed additions
You especially can't use fan-sites in WP:BLP. The site is also used on the articles on Kelly Monaco and Maurice Benard. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 18:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been added.
MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#ghthesoap.com
☯
Zenwhat (
talk) 18:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I proposed to add it but that addition was rejected. You'll just have to remove it and hope they don't linkfarm again, even though they probably will. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 06:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
A couple, not a whole lot, of user are using Futoncritic.com as some sort of bible when it comes to future episode airings. It's gotten to the point of problematic and the user has been told a number of times by various editors to stop using it. As she keeps insisting that it is reliable, I felt it was time to bring it here. (Thanks Pairadox for leading me here). See this comment [3] where apparently she believes you "can't get more reliable than the futon critic." The privacy policy at Futon critic seems to indicate that it's a pay to have your stuff site. I didn't think that counted as reliable sourcing. Can we discuss? IrishLass ( talk) 18:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. This is a tough one to answer. My first impression was to laugh and say, "Get rid of it," but I read they're about us page and it's somewhat convincing. They've been up for 10 years, they're good enough that they sell ads independently, they focus exclusively on TV information, and they do original stories. Wikipedia shouldn't discriminate against New media so long as it's reliable. The only thing I'd add is: Check to see if it's cited by reliable third-parties. FutonCritic on Google pops up 404k results, suggesting it's pretty widely-used, despite the silly name. About their privacy statement, I think you misunderstand it: They collect information from users to sign up on behalf of their clients, the advertisers. It's not like Digg where anybody can sign up and upload content. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
FYI, this section is fascinating here. Please read and weigh in there. An editor is asserting it could be OR and unacceptable to make an article from sources that wouldn't be readily available to everyone, or using old harder to find sources. Lawrence § t/ e 00:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
This is true. I.E., not too long ago I dealt with somebody trying to use a Korean newspaper that wasn't published in English or archived online. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 04:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a dicussion underway [Talk:Stormfront_%28website%29#What_the_hell_is_going_on_with_this_.22blog.22_thing.3F here] as to whether apparent blogs of the BBC and CNN are reliable sources, and also if an article from a reliable source ( New Times) that is hosted on a third party website is reliable. The relevant links are [4], [5] and [http://www.stormfront.org/dblack/racist_021998.htm]. Expert attention very much appreciated as it is a controversial article. Skomorokh confer 02:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I was going to post this in the ghthesoap.com section above, but decided to give this topic its own section. What about www.soapcentral.com? There really aren't many soap opera sites out there that Wikipedia considers reliable. Soapcentral.com, while some may call it a fansite, is extremely reliable, as seen with articles like As Strike Winds On, Soaps Are a Hot Commodity and WGA Takes Issue With Soap Opinion Column. And Wikipedia's soap opera articles rely heavily on it. It's right up there with soapoperadigest.com in its reliability and I'd like to get some feedback on it now, as I would hate to see it banned (you know, blacklisted) from Wikipedia without most of us who use it knowing. It's considered a reliable source by WikiProject Soap Operas. And it serves articles such as Todd Manning well, where some of the information may not be available elsewhere on the internet in reliable sources, and when access to magazine articles where the same information could be accessed is unavailable to the editor simply because they don't have or know about the article. I'm unaware of if this site has been brought here for discussion before, but I felt now was as good as time as any, if that isn't the case...and so I can know either way, considering that if it has been brought here for discussion before, I don't know about it. Flyer22 ( talk) 04:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is Muhammad Shamsaddin Megalommatis a WP:RS? He presents himself as: Orientalist, Assyriologist, Egyptologist, Iranologist, and Islamologist, Historian, Political Scientist, Dr. Megalommatis, 49, is the author of 12 books, dozens of scholarly articles, hundreds of encyclopedia entries, and thousands of articles. He speaks, reads and writes more than 15, modern and ancient, languages. [8] Now I personally don't think he is reliable, but some Wikipedians are trying to insert his articles as some sort of reliable source in various Wikipedia articles. Some of the articles he is currently featured in (as source, external link or otherwise): Anuak, Bibliography of the Darfur conflict, Kush, Colombia. Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL Google scholar only yields one hit. He seems like a fraud or a con-artist to me and should be excluded from all articles on Wikipedia. Some of the claims he has made are quite hilarious though: The Assyrian and Israelite Origin of the Northern Europeans and Americans does anyone really believe that? — EliasAlucard ( Discussion · contribs) 23:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is Mark Juergensmeyer a reliable source for the inclusion of N.Irish terrorism in Christian terrorism? He is a highly respected expert on religious terrorism, with hundreds of relevant publications to his name. The cited source in which he regards N.Ireland terrorism as religious in nature is published by the University of California Press. To quote WP:SOURCES "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks;" However, User:Mamalujo is arguing that Juergensmeyer is fringe and should be disregarded. I would welcome some other editors weighing in on Talk:Christian_terrorism. The contrast between the inclusion criteria for this article, where university published academics are rejected in order to shorten the list, and Islamic terrorism, where the views of general pundits are accepted, is a blatant violation of neutrality. Chris Bainbridge ( talk) 23:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
This is the easiest version of the source to access:
This is the academic vetting of the source:
Dr Daly's general credentials can probably be found here:
The source is being used to quote Dr Daly's overview of the monetary policy that is presently used in the United States.
Although the material used from the source has no derivation from any economic theory (it's just an observation of processes that are used nearly everyday in the US), an editor is particularly troubled by this source because of the general economic theories that Dr Daly subscribes to.
The editor accepts that the source was published in the manner recommended by WP:RS. However, the editor continues to contend (from their own personal knowledge) that Dr Daly is an unqualified source of any information pertaining to monetary economics, and, more specifically, that Dr Daly is unqualified to draw conclusions about US monetary policy. Despite the vetting of the source, the editor is unable to provide any academic publication that disputes Daly's conclusions about the costs of monetary policy in the US.
Is this source usable in ways that avoid any discussion involving economic theories? Is it proper to dispute the reliability of material within a source that has been published reliably, if none of the writer's peers make objections? BigK HeX ( talk) 14:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I've issued a posting on this matter about User:BigK HeX on WP:ANI. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 07:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Is Amazon.com a reliable source to prove the existance of merchandise? (as in Sasuke_Uchiha#Reception) - Malkinann ( talk) 02:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
*picard face-palm* ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Is MobyGames considered a reliable source for video games? -- Menti fisto 03:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
At Cloverfield (creature) various users have attempted to add that the "creature"'s name is "Clover" and other such details. The source of this comes from this website: [10]. It directs you to "click here for the production notes." That takes you to a page that has a list of quotations, but no mention of authorship, copyright, source, nor any verifiable set of information. The section that claims the crew believed the monster was called "Clover" is not quoted nor given a direct citation. The author of the page, "Jeff Giles" does not back up his data or cite sources, and that I believe he is a blogger, since he is posting in a user area for regular user critiques of movies, and that his homepage, according to [ [11]] is the continuation of his blog, " http://www.jefitoblog.com". I do not believe this meets Wikipedia verifiability, because there is no knowledge of the owner, no knowledge of the author, and the individual comment (the production crew calling the creature "clover") appears once and is not attributed to any one person, without any claims of its legitimacy. It appears that it is a piece of rumor inside an unverifiable source linked via a blog. Ottava Rima ( talk) 15:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Deindenting. Just noticed your edit summary, Ed; you're right, Paramount's coyness has been complicating matters. Let me put it this way: Giles is a regular contributor of content that Rotten Tomatoes stands behind as 'news'. If, in that article, he had merely taken a few chunks of information from the document as 'quotes' from the production notes, would that information have been usable, and that article considered a reliable source? And if so, why would a full document that RT (and a handful of other solid film sites) has said are (spoiler alert!) the film's production notes not be acceptable? Given that Giles is a reliable contributor to a reliable site, why isn't this particular contribution reliable, as well? -- Vary | Talk 19:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
By "everything" you mean that you didn't include context of the information, direct links, or even a link to the discussion it deals with, let alone not put it in the right forum? And there are only two editors. That is not a consensus. Ottava Rima ( talk) 19:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
To pitch in here, when Vary mentioned using production notes, I wasn't aware that he was referring to the ones at Cloverfield (creature). I had added information from the production notes myself, and I find it hard to believe that the production notes would be at all questionable. Reviewing the .doc, it's clearly the marketing packaging. It's also linked at ComingSoon.net and SciFi Japan. Really, there's no issue with citing this document. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 19:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
[12] Hoponpop69 ( talk) 01:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, can this: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=nwn2modulesenglish.Detail&id=75 be used as a source to show that there exists a NWN module based on the pen-and-paper module of the same name? Thanks. Hobit ( talk) 13:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted some outside input about this website. While it does have facilities for any person to offer reviews on products, there are also a set of "staff reviewers" [13]. It's unclear as to the exact procedure/qualifications about becoming a staff reviewer. I'm looking for input as to whether product reviews from these staff reviewers (not some random user) would be considered as reliable sources. This is partly stemming from the continuting disagreement (shall we say) on the references for Red Hand of Doom (and likely other articles). Thanks. --Craw-daddy | T | 15:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure this has likely been hashed over many times, but what are some general guidelines for online e-zines, mainly in terms of WP:V? I'm thinking of a magazine such as Pyramid which moved to a totally online format ten years ago (or so). The reliability, I think, isn't the issue as it's published by Steve Jackson Games (focussing on the gaming/role-playing game market). There were about 30 issues printed on paper, but now it's completely online and subscription-based. So in other words, any material quoted from an article can be verfied by someone else that also has a subscription, but not necessarily *any* Joe Q. Public. I would think this is considered as verfiable, similar to a (smaller-town) newspaper, for example. (I could verify something that appeared five years ago in the Poughkeepsie Journal, for example, but it might not be so easy to do, and it might cost me some money to do so, I haven't thoroughly searched their site to see if their archives are available and/or if it's a service that I would have to pay for.) --Craw-daddy | T | 15:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Is Irfan Shahid a WP:RS? He has a Bachelor of Arts from Harvard and a Ph.D from Princeton, [14] which should make him a reliable source. However, some of his claims seem to be political in nature and suspicious. For instance, he has apparently claimed that Julia Domna was of Arabic descent, and her father, of Arabic descent. At the time, in Syria (where Julia was born), the region had barely any Arabs and the lingua franca of the area was Syriac (a dialect of Aramaic). I've Googled and found nowhere else, any mention of Julia Domna being of Arabic descent. It was after the Muslim Conquest when Arabs became more dominant in Syria. During the dominance of Graeco-Roman times, Arabs were of no importance in Syria. Shahid might be some kind of Arab nationalist or something, who is trying to Arabize history in conformity with the current Arab nationalist regime of Syria. What do you guys make out of this? — EliasAlucard ( Discussion · contribs) 09:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
A book that specifically discusses Arabs in the Byzantine world, published by Harvard University Press, and part of an extremely influential series reviewed favourably in the Journal of the American Oriental Society, the Journal of Roman Studies, and four or five others? Why is this even being questioned? Relata refero ( talk) 10:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
(deindent)I dont have the Shahid book in front of me, but the citations of it indicate that, among other things, he studied the etymology of her name, the content of edicts, and so on. It doesn't really matter: what matters is that there are several unimpeachable sources, and that, in fact, the Shahid book is frequently quoted in reference to the bios of Julia Domna and her descendants. Have a look at various biographical dictionaries. Relata refero ( talk) 11:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Daniel Pipes is a prominent political commentator, so presumably his opinions may be cited (with proper attribution) when they appear in newspapers, books, and other similar sources. However, should opinions published on his blog be permitted in Wikipedia articles? In particular, on the Prophet of Doom article, this blog post was used as a source for the statement that "Muslim agitators have circulated a petition to have the book banned and censored" (stated without qualification) as well as Pipes' own opinion on the subject. The group allegedly circulating this petition, Islamic Educational and Cultural Research Center, doesn't even have an article on Wikipedia and there is no evidence that the group or petition was notable. Anyone can start an online petition. Under WP:V, blogs are generally considered to be unreliable sources, but someone insists on putting this back in again and again, arguing that Pipes' "opinion on the subject is inherently notable." *** Crotalus *** 04:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I forgot to ask, above -- I question the label several of my correspondents applied to these memos -- "primary sources". All of these Summary of Evidence memos were based on multiple documents. In some instances we know they were based on dozens of primary sources from over half a dozen other agencies. So why shouldn't we consider the summary memos "secondary sources"?
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 19:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
For the Project Chanology article, a very useful source would be a radio interview that was conducted on January 30, 2008. Now, this radio inteview was not archived and made available in an official capacity on the radio station's website. On the other hand, certain listeners recorded the interview in MP3 format, and hosted it on their own sites, so the interview, completely unedited, can be found online, including at such places as this link: [17] (there are others as well, all unofficial)
My question is, is this interview a Reliable Source? It was conducted by a mainstream member of the media and broadcast to a large recieving audience, but is only available online in an unofficial capacity. I assume that any researching graduate student would be able to contact the radio station (assuming we cite the radio station properly, which is par for the course) and obtain a copy that way, just like a reasearcher would be able to contact, say, the New York Times for a back issue. The New York Times is, of course, available online and this is not, but why should online availability factor in?
Comments please? Fieari ( talk) 23:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello folks, a few questions have arisen on the Ilchi Lee talk page about use of court documents as reliable sources, specifically under two circumstances: First, when posted second-hand on a site that is not agreed to be a legitimate source itself. Second, when available only by calling the county to request a copy through the mail. Does anyone have any information about how to judge the verifiability and reliability of official documents in these cases? Thanks! Forestgarden ( talk) 04:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
What do you think of this? [18]-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back ( talk) 14:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Makes sense. I got rid of the reference, but I placed the wiktionary template near the lead paragraph (since the lead paragraph discusses the definition of the word at length).-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back ( talk) 14:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Separately: How would one detect and thus discriminate between polemic, apologetic and "objective" sources? (Each side would call their favored sources "objective".)-- Blue Tie ( talk) 11:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the tendency for certain sources to be prone to poor fact-checking and bias is a part of WP:RS. In that regard, objectivity is relevant. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this page from the Humane Society a reliable source to include this sentence in the article on Polar bear?: "The result of the effects of global warming are thinner bears, a decrease in reproduction rates, and lower survival rates in juvenile bears." Torc2 ( talk) 19:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Is Professor Dr. Zaghloul. R. M. EL-NAGGAR a reliable source? According to his CV, he has been professor King Fahd University of Petroleum & Minerals, Kuwait University, King Saud University and Qatar University. He has also been research assistant at University College of Wales and Robertson Research Laboratories. Bless sins ( talk) 05:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
ROFL, what a horrible last name. Bless sins, did you really have to put it all in caps, lol. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 08:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Where do you want to quote him? Relata refero ( talk) 15:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Another editor and I are having a disagreement as to whether the MySpace links are reliable. I know that MySpace is not a reliable source, but I can't convince this other editor of that. Could I get some supporting arguments and other eyes here? Corvus cornix talk 06:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay this guy really needs to let this go now. First of all, I have been doing this for 2 years now and nothing has EVER been reverted on this page. This guy won't let up and has gone so far now as to open this up for no reason at all. Secondly, the "non-reliable" sources that he is claiming that we are using are in fact from OFFICIAL sites with OFFICIAL information straight from the tour. This has become nothing but a petty showing on this editor's part. DX927 ( talk) 06:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Myspace is definitely not considered a reliable source. That said, I think Bradeos Graphon is over-stating the unreliability of primary sources. Priamary sources most definitely can be reliable. The relevant policy statements here are WP:SPS and WP:PSTS (sub-sections of WP:V and WP:NOR respectively). The use of primary sources are somewhat limited, and they should be used with caution... but they can be used. It really depends on the nature of the statement you are backing with the source. Blueboar ( talk) 15:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
A somewhat dicey question, so I'm bringing it here for ideas.
Looking through a couple of articles on Indian ethnicities and castes, I noticed that a large number of them, particularly on various kinds of Brahmins, are heavily dependent on a particular reference. The reference in question is usually given as "A History of Brahmin Clans (Brāhmaṇa Vaṃshõ kā Itihāsa), in Hindi, by Dorilāl Śarmā,published by Rāśtriya Brāhamana Mahāsabhā, Vimal Building, Jamirābād, Mitranagar, Masūdābād, Aligarh-1, 2nd ed-1998". The usual reference is usually followed by the line "This Hindi book contains the most exhaustive list of Brahmana gotras and pravaras together their real and mythological histories." Almost all of the cites have been added by User:Vinay Jha sometime last year.
Now I can't find a reference to this book or Dorilal Sharma anywhere, though I admit my ability to look through Hindi RSes isn't the best. It doesn't seem to be published by an authentic academic publisher, but by a communirty organisation. I don't think the latter is particularly notable either - there's a political party called the "Brahmin Mahasabha" in the relevant state, and lots of smaller towns have their own caste-based associations generally called mahasabhas, but I don't know of, and cannot discover antecedents for, this one.
Further, Dorilal Sharma doesn't seem to be a particularly well-known scholar, subject to the same constraints I mentioned earlier.(As in, I can't find him at all. I can't even find him on WorldCat.)
Now, normally I would have gone ahead and removed this and excised whatever material was dependent upon it, but I am far from sure in this case. Subject to the normal corrections of wording involved in ensuring that it is crystal clear what is traditionally assumed and what is historically known, it doesn't seem that any particularly broad claims are made with reference to the book. It may not sound 100% right to me, but I don't claim to have a perfect intuition about these things.
In addition, an undeniable fact is that the articles seem to me at least to be more informative and encyclopaedic thanks to a solid rewriting heavily dependent on this book; Here's a revision of a typical article just before User:Vinay Jha started editing, and here's the revision when he's done.
So I'm torn. I've seen some of these caste-based histories, and a lot of them are truly awful - one on Agrasena and the Agarwals still gives me nightmares - but I cannot be certain that this is one of them. It appears that the editor who used the source has largely stopped editing, but I'm leaving a note on the talkpage anyway. In the meantime, some suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Relata refero ( talk) 18:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Right now the only source for this article is an "official" forum press release. I don't think its a reliable source, per our usual guidelines on web forums, but wanted to check here before I used it as a basis for an AfD. MBisanz talk 21:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been accused of vandalism because I have repeatedly removed poor quality (IMHO) references to recrds sales. THe matter has been discussed on the discussion page and most who have commented agree, and yet a few editors keep added these links. A similar dispute on the Pink Floyd entry has quietened down recently with the accepted Reliable Source link still in place.
I'm not prepared to carry on reverting this to what I believe is a valid entry without some back up from more senior users - or to be told that those links do meet the standard! -- C Hawke ( talk) 16:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Sigh. I don't know what you can do, man. There are more anon IPs than you. They aren't discussing the edit with you either, am I right? And the link is obvious nonsense. You won't be able to get the page semi-protected to stop this. And if you edit-war, you'll get blocked. That's how Wikipedia works.
My suggestion: Let them have the page. There's nothing else you can do. And instead focus instead on helping others with WP:RS problems and reforming policy to help deal with this kind of thing. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
-- C Hawke ( talk) 20:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
82.131.201.136 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has done a spamming spree on anime-related articles. The spam link, http://www.animeisland.extra.hu/index.php?x=animek/, is a non-English (appears German) fansite and I would like to see it blacklisted. If this is the wrong noticeboard, could someone point me to the correct one? Lord Sesshomaru ( talk • edits) 18:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
At Seattle Parks and Recreation, someone seems to be unhappy that the extent of the Seattle parks system (acreage, number of parks, number of golf courses, etc.) is the Department itself rather than a third party. Given that I've never heard of anyone seriously calling the department's veracity into question, it's really hard to imagine what other source could be more reliable than the department itself. I would imagine that any other "usually reliable source" would simply be reproducing the department's own numbers. - Jmabel | Talk 19:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Can the Citizendium wiki be used as a RS as in this edit [20]?-- Hughgr ( talk) 23:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Citizendium seems to be one gigantic POV-fork to me. The articles I have read a mostly rubbish that wouldn't be allowed on wikipedia. It shouldn't be RS and I strongly doubt it should be an external link unless in unusual cases. If there is anything worth linking, then it can be linked directly, not via Citizendium. Mccready ( talk) 03:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The aforementioned book is being used as a citation for the incident where Rush Limbaugh allegedly joked that Chelsea clinton was the 'whitehouse dog'. Limbaugh claims it was a technical error; others claim it was intentional. The problem i see is that the book is not a reliable source for the facts of the incident. the book is a collection of political commentary and satire; it's a polemic about all things not-liberal, so claims about what did or did not actually happen (and i know of no truly reliable source for these details) fall into the realm of opinion, not fact. thoughts? Anastrophe ( talk) 22:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
OK... I think some context is needed here for people to comment correctly... first, the book is not being used to back the fact that Limbaugh said Chelsea was a dog... it is being used to back his statement that this was a technical error. In this case it is acceptable... the book is where he says this. What has occurred is that people have added commentary to that blunt statement. Here are some of the diffs to show what the situation is: Originally the citation was an acceptable use of the source... Limbaugh says the comment was an error, and the citation is where he says it. We then get this edit, which added commentary not found in the book. Things go back and forth a bit, until this edit removes both the comment and the citation. To me it is obvious that the original version is correct here... Limbaugh said it, so we should cite where he said it. The question of whether Limbaugh's statement is credible or not is a different issue, and needs its own citations to be included. Blueboar ( talk) 03:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Who thinks this is a suitable Wiki source for a representative take on the opinions of science educators. [22] I draw your attention to: 1) Global Warming being included on the list of pseudosciences on the page cited above (as is naturism) and here as well [23]; 2) their definition of life/death [24]; and their guide to getting rid of swallows. [25] TheLaPesca ( talk) 00:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm questioning the reliability of:
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(
help)for the purpose of quoting the last paragraph, [Jones] "is sometimes described as a "conspiracy theorist." He regularly rails against globalism, the United Nations and World Bank on satellite and Internet radio." This is background information about a person not the subject of the news article, and is probably only vetted for "can anyone sue us for this", rather than for accuracy. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Although I have been reverting vandalism for a while, I haven't really ever needed to report anything on a noticeboard, so pardon me if I'm not reporting this correctly.
Recently, I noticed a bunch of users posting very similar content on various tobacco-related articles. The content seems to possibly be sublimely advertising for 3 specific brands: Bugler, Top, and Kite. Here's some of the affected articles: Top Tobacco, Roll-your-own, Bugler (tobacco). There's a bunch more floating around.
Each article has a slightly different version of the text. Many contain phrases such as "Since the beginning of the 21st Century" or "roll your own tobacco" or "#1 selling tobacco" somewhere in the article.
Other editors have marked some of these pages as needing sources, or some cleaning up. Is it possible that a ring of sockpuppets is doing this? Or is it just one user? It's hard for me to tell. — ThreeDee912 ( talk) 00:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Heya, Im one of the mediators for the current case that this page is involved in and i wanted to check peoples opinions on whether these sources are seen as reliable?
The way that these sources are intended to be used by a user is to gives the names of translators that are supposed to have translated the NWT. Now the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (the publisher of he NWT) has not released the names of the translators themselves, the information comes from 2 former members of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. The first William Cetnar, and the second Raymond Franz.
The Primay Sources are as follows:
“From my observation, N. H. Knorr, born 4/23/1905, baptized Cedar Point, OH, and died 6/5/1977 age 72; F. W. Franz 4th President born 1893, Albert D. Schroeder. G. D. Gangas, and M. Henschel met together in these translation sessions. Aside from Vice-President Franz (and his training was limited), none of the committee members had adequate schooling or background to function as critical Bible translators. Franz’s ability to do a scholarly job of translating Hebrew is open to serious question since he never formally studied Hebrew.” (Gruss E, We Left The Jehovah’s Witnesses, 1974, p. 68)
“The New World Translation bears no translator’s name and is presented as the anonymous work of the “New World Translation Committee.” Other members of that committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas. Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew.” (Franz R, Crisis of Conscience Third Edition, Commentary Press, 2000: 54)
The Secondary Sources are as follows:
“In view of the broad censure this translation has received from renowned biblical linguistic scholars, it is not surprising tht the Watchtower has always resisted efforts to identity members of the translation committee. The claim was that they preferred to remain anonymous and humble, giving God the glory. However, such anonymity also prevented scholars from checking their credentials.
“When defector Raymond Franz finally revealed the identity of the translators (Nathan Knorr, Frederick Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel), it quickly became apparent that the committee was completely unqualified for the task. Four of the five men in the committee had no Hebrew of Greek training and, in fact, had only a high school education. The fifty—Frederick Franz—claimed to know Hebrew and Greek, but upon examination under oath in a court of law in Edinburgh, Scotland, was found to fail a simple Hebrew test.” . (Rhodes R, The Challenge of the Cults and New Religions, The Essential Guide to Their History, Their Doctrine, and Our Response, Zondervan, 2001, p. 94)
“From this pompous pronouncement it is only too evident that the Watchtower considers its “scholars” the superiors of such great scholars as Wycliffe and Tyndale, not to mention the hundreds of brilliant, conscecrated Christian scholars who produced the subsequent orthodox translations. Such a pretext is of course too absurd to merit refutation, but let it be remembered that the New World Bible translation committee had no known translators with recognized degrees in Greek of Hebrew exegesis or translation. While the members of the committee have never been identified officially by the Watchtower, many Witnesses who worked at the headquarters during the translation period were fully aware of who the members were. They included Nathan H. Knorr (president of the Society at the time), Frederick W. Franz (who later succeeded Knorr as president), Albert D. Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel (currently the president). None of these men had any university education except Franz, who left school after two years, never completing even an undergraduate degree. In fact, Frederick W. Franz, then representing the translation committee and later serving as the Watchtower Society’s fourth president, admitted under oath that he could not translate Genesis 2:4 from the Hebrew.” (Martin W, Kingdom of the Cults, Expanded Anniversary Edition, October 1997, Bethany House Publishers, p. 123)
“The Society states that the names of the translators of the NWT have never been made public to ensure that all the glory goes to God and none to man [Proclaimers p. 608 note]. While this is no doubt most laudable it has two not so laudable riders - (i) that the credentials of the translators can never be checked, and (ii) that there would be nobody to assume responsibility for the translation.
“The translators' names, however, have never been a total secret. William Cetnar, who was working in the Brooklyn Bethel (the Society's International Headquarters) in 1950 when the work was first begun, and whose story can be found in Edmond Gruss' book We Left Jehovah's Witnesses, states that the names were well known to be Nathan Homer Knorr (the then president), Frederick William Franz (vice-president and president from 1977), Albert D Schroeder, George D Gangas and Milton G Henschel, all high-ranking Society officials and later members of the Governing Body. It is Cetnar's opinion that no one but Franz, whose training was limited, had had any adequate schooling or background to function as critical Bible translators. The following, cited in We Left Jehovah's Witnesses (pp. 74-5), supports this view.
“From the Scottish Court of Sessions, November 1954:
“(The attorney) Q. Have you also made yourself familiar with Hebrew? (Franz) A. Yes… Q. So that you have a substantial linguistic apparatus at your command? A. Yes, for use in my biblical work. Q. I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German and French? A. Yes. [Pursuer's Proof, p. 7] Q. You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you? A. I do not speak Hebrew. Q. You do not? A. No. Q. Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew? A. Which? Q. That fourth verse of second chapter of Genesis? A. You mean here? Q. Yes? A. No. I wouldn't attempt to do that. [Pursuer's Proof, pp.102,103].” (Tony Piper, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, published online by Reachout Trust)
“On thing which has brought much criticism of the New World Translation is that that New World Translation Committee has refused since 1950 to reveal the names and academic credentials of its members. Of course, this has very little to do with the quality of the translation itself which deserves to be examined on the basis of its own merits rather than on who and what its translators were or were not. It may be, however, that the anonymity for the committee reflects more than a spirit of humility among its members. From page 50 of Crisis of Conscience Raymond Franz states that the members of it were his uncle, Frederick Franz, Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder, and George Gangas. Then he notes: ‘Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt [a] translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati, but was only self taught in Hebrew.’ So to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man—Frederick Franz.” (Penton J, Apocalypse Delayed Second Edition, University of Toronto Press, 1999, p. 173-4)
“The New World Translation committee consisted of four members of the Jehovah’s Witness religious sect. Their names and scholarly qualifications are as follows: Nathan Knorr: President of the Watchtower Society (no academic training in any Biblical language) Fred Franz: (no academic degree in any Biblical language, though he did study Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati) Albert Schroeder: (no academic training in any Biblical language) George Gangas: (no academic training in any Biblical language)” (Mike Spencer, The New World Translation: God's Word?, published online by Spiritwatch Ministries)
“The publisher of this version has never made public the names of the translators. But former members of the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization have identified the members of the committee as Nathan H. Knorr (President of the organization), Frederick W. Franz (Vice-President), George D. Gangas, and Albert D. Schroeder. According to Raymond V. Franz, the "principal translator of the Society's New World Translation" was Frederick W. Franz. (1) According to M. James Penton, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man, Frederick Franz." (2) Franz afterwards became the President of the organization, from 1977 to 1992, and was responsible for the revisions.” (Michael Marlowe editor, The New World Translation, published online by Bible Research)
There is currently an RfC on this but i felt it might be of more gain to ask here as this page is source specific and i wanted a wider community opinion on this. Thank you for your time on this. Seddon69 ( talk) 00:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
BE TA 14:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A few things. I'll repeat my belief that this detailed material really deserves it's own seperate article. Much of the above should be presented, but doing so in the main article would be imho undue weight. The article now doesn't seem to even mention that there's a controversy. Next, of the above, the works should be checked for, are the works published by a third-party, not self-published. Are the authors polemic, extreme, do they make bizarre claims? Do any of the works give a balanced overview? Or is each one a diatribe? If you feel that you must narrow the scope to one or two sources, than the more balanced and neutral ones should be used. Wjhonson ( talk) 17:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
So I've done a good deal of work on Hofstra University related topics. At Talk:Frank G. Zarb School of Business an anon. IP is asking about adding a ranking of the school since he received an MS there and has this source [26]. Normally I wouldn't hesitate to make a call and put it in or not, but I'm an MBA student there now. While its a big university, I'm thinking that something as narrow as MBA rankings for the program I'm in, is probably a COI. So is this source reliable or not and how should it be phrased if it is. MBisanz talk 21:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)