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help)As a citation for this information in Backmasking:
Slayer included at the start of the band's 1985 album Hell Awaits a deep backmasked voice chanting "Join Us" over and over at increasing volumes.
Though it is posted at a blog, I find this article well-written and credible. Others have disagreed at the talk page. Λυδαcιτγ 20:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Let me quote relevant policies:
My advice is as follows: if the information is not contradicted by more reliable sources, use it with a note that it was published on a blog, and add information about its author, publisher, fact-checking (or lack of thereof), pay attention to WP:NPOV#Undue_weight (if the extra information blog provies are not very notable, they should be used with caustion). If the information is contradicted by more reliable sources, it should not be used.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 01:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
According to Michael Fortes' "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Slayer", published at jefitoblog, Slayer included at the start of the band's 1985 album Hell Awaits a deep backmasked voice chanting "Join Us" over and over at increasing volumes.
There is an ongoing dispute on Stephen Barrett that may come down to the reliability of the sources provided. In short, Stephen Barrett is not board certified. This information has been verified by several primary sources including Stephen Barrett himself at Wikipedia and some legal documents [1] [2]. The question is open about the necessity of secondary sources to support these primary sources and whether any of secondary sources we have meet reliability per Wikipedia policy.
The two sources which we are examining now are:
Other sources to be examined include:
The content which will need support will essentially say: "Dr. Barrett is not board certified." Third-party opinions about the reliability of these sources to support this content will be most appreciated and will certainly help us to arrive at a consensus on this issue. Thank you. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
In an earlier phase of this discussion I made an extensive argument about the reliability and notability of the source Dynamic Chiropractic ( found here: [ [3]] ). This trade magazine can not just be dismissed. MaxPont 21:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
DGG, if I am not mistaken(!) I believe you misunderstand the situation, and thereby are doing Barrett an injustice with this statement:
There are three points to clarify here:
1. The difference between specialization and certification. They are not the same. Specialization is an extension of the basic medical education, while board certification is a step beyond that. At the time Barrett took and failed the exam, only 1/3 of psychiatrists were board certified and his lack of certification was never a problem during his entire career. He was able to testify as a psychiatric expert witness without any problems.
2. It is not necessary to be an MD, an MD specialist, or even a board certified MD, to be considered by courts to be an expert witness on a medical subject. There are examples of persons who have established their expertise on subjects outside of their own profession, who are admitted by courts as expert witnesses. This also applies outside of the medical and scientific fields. While it may be unusual, it does happen.
Barrett's status as an expert witness in the later years (since his retirement) has not normally (if ever) been as a psychiatrist, but as an expert in quackery and healthfraud, and in that capacity he is considered by many to be one of (if not "the") the foremost expert(s) in the world. His expertise on those subjects has been recognized by numerous private and governmental organizations and consumer protection agencies. It is not necessary to be educated in a quack field (such as homeopathy) to be able to use common sense, knowledge of what is legal or illegal, knowledge of consumer protection laws, knowledge of ethics, and knowledge of scientific matters, to be able to judge whether a claim is proper or improper, and thus classify it as quackery, healthfraud, or something like it.
3. I'm not sure that it is legal for an MD who has not passed specialty exams to claim to be a specialist. The same would apply to board certification.
I hope that my explanations help. I could be mistaken on some minor details about the legalities about point three. I just wish to clear up a misunderstanding that is injurious and unfair. He has not been deceptive or misleading in this matter. On the contrary, it is Bolen who has been misleading, weaselly, and libelous in his attacks on Barrett, and he is being sued for it. We don't want to repeat, support, or participate in his perfidy here at Wikipedia. -- Fyslee/ talk 08:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
You cannot say he failed the exam, or anything else, on the basis of a posting to Wikipedia, because we have no way of knowing whether or not it is true. that would not just be using a primary source, but using ourselves as a primary source.
Per the discussion here (at this most helpful page), I have put forth a proposal to add the information that Barrett is not Board Certified. Please feel free to drop by and weigh in on this proposal. Hopefully the guidance provided here will help with the resolution to this long dispute. Thanks again. -- Levine2112 discuss 16:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
There is still disagreement at Talk:Stephen Barrett over inserting the verified content that Barrett is not board certified, despite the finding here that say our primary sources are reliable and sufficient. Above, it is stated that when it comes to sources, the more the merrier. I would appreciate an analysis of the following two secondary sources (which will be used to support the reliable primary sources discussed above).
Both articles come from widely read trade publications. Are these sources reliable in terms of secondary sources of the information (that Barrett is not Board Certified)? Basically, those editors who are in favor of excluding this content feel that we would need a reliable secondary source to provide the context and weight for this issue. Judging by your comments above, I don't know that this is necessary, but if it is a chance to end this long dispute, I certainly welcome your expert analysis. Thanks for your time and guidance in this matter. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Wjhonson 18:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)"He is not board certified (citation), but he responds by stating that 'It is not necessary to be board-certified to practice psychiatry'" (citation)
Search engine optimization is a featured article candidate. Due to the nature of the subject, we have relied heavily on web sources, including several prominent blogs.
A reviewer has asked for community input as to whether these sources, and others used in the article, are reliable or not. Please comment here or there. Jehochman Talk 01:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Every once in a while someone tries to "correct" the Super Nintendo Entertainment System article with their pronunciation, which usually results in a few pointless edits until we reach a compromise. So I decided to research the issue, and discovered (unsurprisingly) that people pronounce it in many different ways: "sness", "snez", "s-nes", "s-n-e-s", "super nes", "super nintendo", etc. The ideal statement for the article then would be along the lines of "English speakers pronounce SNES in various ways, including ...". The hard part is finding a reliable source, as AFAICT no one has bothered to write an article on the subject. I have an argument for using what is normally an unreliable source, but I suspect my line of reasoning will be opposed by some editors. Step by step, the reasoning is:
In general, this sort of thing could support a statement of existence like "Some people believe Y about X" or "People believe different things about X, including but not limited to Y1 and Y2". It cannot be used to support statements like "Everyone/No one believes Y about X", or any quantitative statement about levels of belief or non-belief in Y, or "few/many/most" semi-quantitative statements, or any indication as to whether Y is actually true or false.
This could also apply to use of voodoo polls, although they may often be disqualified under criterion 3 on the argument that people lie to screw with the poll results.
Any thoughts? I've read some of the past discussion in various talk archives, but it only went as far as step 2 in anything I've found. Sometimes there was consensus, and sometimes not. Anomie 22:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't there a ''Nintendo Power'' which clarified that it is pronounced "Super NES"?-- Flamgirlant 21:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we consider this discussion resolved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:21, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro, produces the CCG Magic: The Gathering. As part of their website, [7], they regularly produce informational columns [8] and provide specific information on cards [9]. They also answer questions [10] . Sometimes the articles can be a bit silly (I included one for an example), but in general, I feel it's clearly a professional site with an acceptable standard for accuracy. Now there may be concerns about marketing bias and other such issues, but I think that the appropriate response is to use them with a slight level of caution, and if other reliable sources contradict them, to include that contradiction if it comes up. IOW, I believe that usage of the site is acceptable in general, and only individual specific concerns are worth covering. Is this acceptable or not? I've invited the person who disagrees with this to make their position clear, but you can also read about it on the MTG Wikiproject's discussion page. FrozenPurpleCube 16:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, this is a gross misrepresentation. I've only been removing a narrow case of references; claims of "Notable cards" sourced only to WOTC's website. Since when do we cite the publisher of a product as a source for opinionated claims about their product? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 22:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Ideally, we wouldn't have these bulleted lists of trivia; instead, incorporating them into the body of the article. The first thing we need to do with eliminate this heavy element of parroting WOTC's party line on their products. Why are we citing the official site of the publisher of a product for critical reception of that product? Why should we mention their faux critical reception at all? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 05:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
As I wrote earlier, as long as those guidelines are followed, wizard.com can be used as a source. Let's review them one by one:
Bottom line is that if its only a producer who says its product is notable, we shouldn't repeat their claims, but if the producer is also a publisher of a widely respect (correct me if I am wrong) journal or informative website, that source can be considered more reliable, but it should be made clear in the text that a possibility of bias or unreliability is higher - so if there is no clear consensus of for or against (as seems to be the case), I suggest stating in text (or via dedicated footnote) that the claim about notability comes from wizards.com. PS. I'd suggest discussing the reliability of publications on wizard.com - is it a respectable site or 'company's mouthpiece' - as crucial in solving this debate.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
WP:N. Where's the skepticism? In all other subjects, we assume that the publisher of a product has a vested interest in promoting interest in their product. Why is this suddenly different for Magic? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem with WOTC's content is that WOTC has a vested interest in giving undue weight to their own products, as all corporate mouthpieces are generally assumed to be doing. (Why else would they exist?)
The question I pose to you is such: when has wizards.com been critical of a product they're selling? When have they ever seen fit not to cover WOTC's latest tournament or set as unimportant? Why can we trust them to be impartial about what is important and what is not, regarding their own products? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"Wizards.com is a promotional outlet" is the demonstrated objection. Every single new set is described in glowing terms. Information is rationed according to WOTC's promotional plan. Wizards.com doesn't comment on WOTC's ongoing legal matters. Promotional activities (You Make The Card, upcoming events, previews of upcoming sets) are intermixed freely with coverage of current events, with little dsitinction drawn between them.
The problems are more ones of omission and tone, ones that are part and parcel of the editors being hired by WOTC and the whole site belonging to WOTC. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Does someone have, handy, a non-subjective definition of notable? Right now, in the articles, it seems to be "any card someone thought was neat," which isn't very helpful, or "whatever card Wizards has seen fit to advertise," which doesn't serve the purpose of an encyclopedia.
By the way, if anyone wants an example of the promotional tone, I suggest this article, written shortly after the release of Fifth Dawn and currently being used in Fifth Dawn as a source to indicate that a card that was created in a publicity stunt is noteworthy. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 02:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Guys, have you reached a compromise? Or do you need further input on reliability?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 01:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, where I am is here: Don't make lists of notable cards (or example cards or whatever) with no sources or WOTC-owned sources, because these sections will need to be incorporated into the article body, and personal observations and opinions aren't useful for that.
I dunno about anyone else. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 03:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Article deleted a couple of times at The Yogurt Connection: Pioneering Drug Ring for lack of notability sourcing, it is now at Linda Leary, Richard and Paul Heilbrunn, And The Yogurt Connection. I've been in contact with the author, and the unwieldy current name is a known, separate issue from what I am bringing to this noticeboard. The article actually does have sourcing, but they are all offline sources, and thus cannot be easily verified. I'm no expert on sourcing myself, and after talks with the author I decided to get some consultation from those who do consider themselves more expert in sourcing. Do the external, offline, sources as given meet requirements for the article, or is more needed. Thanks in advance for any time/effort on this issue. - TexasAndroid 21:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Article has been moved to The Yogurt Connection and online sourcing has been added to two of four sources. The Time, NY Time and AP sources were discovered in a proprietary LexisNexis database. The indictment is a paper document obtained by me from the federal court. Also, the article is now, inexplicably to me, no longer visible. Thank you. -- I3142p168 22:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we consider this dicussion resolved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned if this site is a reliable source: [15]. It neither lists where the information comes from, or even gives a date for the club's founding. I am concern that it's not suitable, and that a better source should be found. I can't even find out anything about the person responsible for the site's content. How do we know David Hayes (the person claiming the copyright) knows what the oldest anything is? I'm just not sure it should be trusted. This isn't to say the information is controversial and needs to be removed but I think a better source would be appropriate. FrozenPurpleCube 19:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Mainstream websites published and maintained by notable media outlets are reliable. A minor webpage or a book publisher are less reliable, but unless the information is contradictory to something else we have it can stay - although it may be a good idea to mention a source in the text (ex. Bill Wall states that...).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
As a citation for this information in Antisemitism:
Some have argued that the charge of antisemitism is being misused as a way to silence criticism of Israel.
As a citation for this information in Antisemitism:
After Jimmy Carter published his book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid he was labelled an antisemite.
As a citation for this information in Antisemitism:
Rashid Khalidi, a Director of the Middle East Institute at Columbia University and a target of Campus Watch says:
"This noxious campaign is intended to silence such perfectly legitimate criticism, by tarring it with the brush of anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism, truly loathsome charges. They reveal the lengths that these people apparently feel impelled to go to in order to silence a true debate on campus."
I find the sources reliable. They are from a collection of print news media as well as scolars in the field of politics. Others have disagreed at the talk page. // Liftarn
In fact, the issues here are much more complex, and it's rather disappointing that User:Liftarn uses this board to mis-characterize them, in an attempt to get support for his position. To begin with, the sources used are not scholarly sources about antisemitism, but for the most part are people who have voiced fairly extreme views, then claimed that they have been, or perhaps will be, accused of antisemitism. These claims are entirely self-serving, and in no case actually provide any example of who has accused them of antisemitism; they're just vague smears. Second, the material itself is not relevant to the antisemitism article, which is about actual antisemitism, not vague claims that people have been accused of antisemitism but deny the charges. Third, it is a truism that everyone accused of antisemitism insists that they are not antisemitic, and is being targeted for political reasons - David Duke says it, Jew Watch says it, etc. Even if we had more than a vague claim from someone that they had been accused of antisemitism, the protestations of innocence are predictable, and not notable. Fourth, the entire topic is not particularly notable; one would never find this kind of vague, self-serving, political material in a real encyclopedia. Fifth, the material has already been rejected by AfD processes - Liftarn has been trying to shop this material around encyclopedia articles for a year now, including it in the List of political epithets article, and at least a half-dozen others. The material has been rejected by a wide variety of editors, and User:Liftarn's edits at this point are disruptive. Jayjg (talk) 13:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
// Liftarn
Briefly, I agree with Blueboar that it looks like the Undue Weight/FRINGE issue; a discussion needs to resolve the question whether it is a view important enough to include in the article or not. For the record, I think it is a widely enough heard view to merit an inclusion, but let me try to help the discussion by addressing the concern this board was designed to deal with, that of reliability. are the sources used to back up the above assertion reliable? Per WP:ATT/FAQ: Mainstream websites, newspapers and magazines published and maintained by notable media outlets, Books and journals published by universities and known publishing houses and written by widely published authors. Looking at the sources in question:
Overall, the sources seem reliable, and the amount of them indicates to me that it is not a 'fringe' view.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Sources are OK and prove the fact that was written by Liftarn. -- Dezidor 18:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know if the al Jazeera video and transcript linked in naked short selling (see end of "media coverage" is a reliable source and thus is worthwhile to be linked. My tendency is to think that it is not, but I am interested in hearing other views.-- Samiharris 19:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we consider this dicussion resolved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
No, I do not believe it has. While I respect the opinions that have been offered, I do not see how a propaganda outlet run by a Persian Guilf government can be said to produce reports that are considered reliable sources by Wikipedia.-- Samiharris 15:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I am unsure whether or not Detstar (a GoldenEye 007 fan-site) can be used as a source for information on the GoldenEye 007 article. I do not believe so, as that website is not an official source of information on that game. Of course, given that there are no official GoldenEye websites anymore, could it just be a matter of whose GoldenEye fan-site is the biggest to determine what's "official" and what isn't? SpinyMcSpleen 23:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Discussion is going on at High School Musical 2, as to if the site tommy2.net can be considered a reliable source. The site has been known for breaking news that interests tweens, however my concern is they don't cite sources themselves, and I can't find any third-party mention of the site. I've asked proponents of the site to back up their claims and cite where Tommy2.net is referenced as a source by a media outlet, even Tiger Beat. Meanwhile, I've decided to be responsible and ask folks who are more knowledgeable than I to weigh in :) -- Ipstenu ( talk • contribs) 19:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I have serious reservations about the validity of the sources used on this page. Note that Mr John Hill who has tried to correct the misquotes and sources used has recieved considerable abuse and character assasination from my Burdak and DrBrij. The article is a seriously flouting many of wiki's principles of a NPOV. Please see the discussion to the article and you get an idea of what is happening. Also speak to John Hill.-- Sikh-history 09:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
FAIRlds.org is an apologetic web site operated by Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research. The website has been running since 1998. FAIR is funded by donations and staffed by volunteers. They claim that articles are peer-reviewed, they have an annual conference where papers are presented. More information is available on their [ FAQ]. There has been considerable discussion at talk:First_Vision about whether this is a reliable source. Opinions, expert or otherwise, would be appreciated. 74s181 02:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I have seen several cases of people using material posted on blogs, personal websites, online forums et.c. that claims to be from a reliable source (like a print newspaper). Even if it's not possible to check if their version of the article is genuine or entierly fictional is it still reliable? // Liftarn 13:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Mikhail Meltyukhov is a modern Russian historian, mostly unknown and uncited in the West (which is by no means a hint of his reliability or lack of it, most scholars from non-English speaking countries are unknown and uncited in the West; this only makes estabilishing their reliablity more difficult as it is hard to find reviews and commentary on them in English). His work Stalin's Missed Chance (from 2000, albeit due to poor reference formatting and my lack of command in Russian I cannot vouch for the data of publication) was apparently quite a hit in Russia, in has brought him to the attention of some Western historians. Later, however (2001?), Melt. published a book that has proven to be much more controversial: Soviet-Polish Wars. Political and Military standoff of 1918-1939. The book was first brought to our attention when User:Irpen started using it as a source about attrocities allegedly committed by the Polish Army during the Polish-Soviet War. Since those allegations were quite new to us, questions related to WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and particulary Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources were raised. Two academic reviews in English were found, both very highly critical of Melt.'s work in general and this book in particular:
Peter Cheremushkin (from Moscow State University), Russian-Polish Relations: A Long Way From Stereotypes to Reconciliation, InterMarium Volume 5 (an academic journal of nstitute of Political Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences and Columbia University's East Central European Center). With reliability of author and publisher estabilished, let me bring a few quotes from the journal: p18: "Russian historians were unable to take a united stand against those who claim that “nothing wrong happened in Katyn.” Some historical publications have appeared in this context, such as a book by Mikhail Meltyukhov called Soviet-Polish Wars: Military and Political Confrontation in 1918-1939.42."[...] "This [Meltyukhov's - note by P.P.] point of view can be used to justify the execution of the Polish officers in 1940." [...] "But can this point of view be considered correct if it is so close to Stalinist and neoimperial concepts?"
Polish professor of Jagiellonian University, Andrzej Nowak, in his conference paper writes (p.9): "It would be possible to indicate various examples of more subtle apologias for the Empire, linked with the rejection of all arguments for its victims or critics. Examples which dress themselves in the trappings of the most academic monograph. [...] A more brutal example of the same tendency is expressed in the book by the professional historian from Moscow, Mikhail Meltyukhov, dedicated to the Polish-Soviet conflicts of the twentieth century. These conflicts are, for him, fragments of eternal Western aggression against Russia. When Russia (in this case, Soviet Russia) comes into conflict it is only to take what is rightfully hers. Stalin appears as a genial successor to Catherine II. The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact and the involvement of the USSR in the attack on Poland in September 1939 are presented as purely defensive postures, underlining the primacy of Russian raison d’etat. This posture represented not only Stalin’s profound realism but also historical justice and even – argues Meltyukhov – humanitarianism. In this context the mass deportations of more than half a million people from the territory occupied by the Red Army in September 1939 to camps in the depths of the Soviet Union is presented as a “peacekeeping mission” which prevented the murder of those Poles deported to Siberia by protecting them from the Ukrainians panting with thirst for revenge...". Please also note a damning footnote: "M. Meltyukhov, Sovetsko-polskie voiny. Voienno-politicheskoe protivostoianie 1918-1939 gg., Moskva 2001 – compare my comprehensive review concentrating on the shocking falsehoods in this book – in: A. Nowak, Od imperium do imperium. Spojrzenia na historię Europy Wschodniej, Kraków 2004, p. 258-271."
In light of those two reviews, it has been proposed at Talk:Mikhail_Meltyukhov#Criticism and Talk:Mikhail_Meltyukhov#Request_for_positive_reviews_of_Soviet-Polish_Wars, that unless positive academic (and preferably Western) reviews of Melt.'s works are presented (or critical reviews of Cheremushkin and Nowak works as partisan are presented), Melt.'s works should not be used as references for alleged Polish attrocities in particular, and areas where his "Stalinist and neoimperial" bias can affect in general (or at least, that such bias should be noted in text). Since in two weeks since discussions at the above discussion page stopped no requested positive reviews have been presented, I would like to ask editors interested in reliablity whether they feel it would now be justified to remove the controversial references to Melt. from our project? Note that nobody is questioning the Melt's reliablity where the references to his work concern purerly military matters (numbers, dates, strategy), only where they concern the issue of national POV, neutrality and undue weight/fringe to controversial statements (ex. about Polish army alleged attrocities not confirmed by any other work).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Update. Nowak in his 2004 book in detail lists bias and inaccuracies concerning Polish-Russian relations in this book, primarily pointing out that Poland is always portrayed as an aggressor and many instances of Russian aggression toward Poland are ignored: Bar Confederation for him is not a 'pro-Polish independence movement' but only an 'anti-religious tolerance' one; for a comprehensive study of Polish-Russian relations, there is no mention of Polish-Russian War of 1792 nor of Targowica Confederation; in another example, he claims that 60,000 Soviet POWs died in Polish camps during the Polish-Soviet war, and all Polish POWs were returned safely - ignoring the recent finding of both Polish and Russian historians that for both sides, POWs losses were similar (15,000-20,000) (For more on this subject, see Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919-1924) and Polish prisoners and internees in Soviet Union and Lithuania (1919-1921)); Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is declared non-infringing on Soviet-Polish Non-Aggression Pact and as containing no anti-Polish aspects; Soviet invasion of Poland is termed 'peace operation' and 'liberation'; and main concern of Soviet government during its occupation of Poland was... the well-being of Polish citizens (deportations were meant to safeguard Poles from retribution of now-liberated minorities in that region, and Katyn massacre is justifed due to "60,000 Soviet POWs murdered during the Polish-Soviet War". Nowak also criticizes the work on methodological grounds, noting its reliance of Soviet sources like Nikolai Kuzmin Kruszenije trietjego pochoda Ententy (1958) or Paweł Olszański's Riżskij dogowor (1969) and near complete omission of any works from Russian authors who would disagree with his claims, Polish or Western historiography.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 11:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
A RFC has been opened regarding the use of a published appellate court opinion as a source in the article Right to bear arms. To what extent does such an opinion constitute a reliable source in articles not about the legal case in which the opinion was issued? PubliusFL 17:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone advise me whether the Statements and Recommendations of the International Herpes Management Forum (Editors of the Journal ‘Herpes’) and sourced from their website, [1] are considered a Reliable Source and Verifiable? I have been reverted several times now, without discussion on the article pages, but generalised comments made on my talk page and on other editors pages to the effect of unsourced material, quote mining, and lack of peer reveiwed sources? The particular quotes used are listed below.
The following has also been reverted without discussion by the same editor on a separate article on the basis of unsourced material and pseudoscience! And so I seek independent opinion on V and RS before engaging in further attempts at discussion.
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Yes Piotr, leaving aside generalized accusations that arise from this, made on various user talk pages, such as here but more specifically to RS: here 21st june revert and here 1st july revert
I think dispute resolution should be the last avenue, what I would like to know is there a real issue of RS or just editor prejudices/ opinion? Jagra 03:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
More specifically, Steam_(content_delivery)#Crossplatform_Support. I dont think this should be there because its interpretation of primary sources and the given secondary sources is digg.com . What does everyone think? Corpx 19:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Trawick, Prof. Margaret (1999), "Lessons from Kokkodaicholai", Proceedings of Tamil Nationhood & Search for Peace in Sri Lanka, Carleton University, pp. 1–10
Does using this violate WP:RS ? This is Professor Trawicks home page. This has been disputed in the Prawn farm massacre article. Thanks Taprobanus 17:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
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help). I wil use that instead. Thansk for all your help
Taprobanus 15:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Administrator, I have the following situation:
I have been editing the article on Hipgnosis off and on, adding artwork to the article, as Hipgnosis is a graphic design company that designed some of the most famous album covers of the past 30 years, including Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. By way of illustrating their work, I have been including the various album covers that they designed.
However, User:Moe Epsilon consistently reverts the edits, claiming that the use of the album covers in the article violates copyright. There has been a lengthy discussion, principally with other editors. User:Moe Epsilon's reverts are bordering on vandalism, as no reasonable argument will satisfy him/her.
My position (and that of other editors) is that the use of the album covers to illustrate Hipgnosis' work is warranted—after all, they are an important graphic design outfit. Therefore, including the album covers in the article falls under the rubrick of fair use. User:Moe Epsilon, on the other, clearly does not believe that any use of copyrighted material is allowed in the article, regardless of relevance.
I'd ask someone to please settle this issue, as it is becoming irritating. Thank you. -- TallulahBelle 22:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
as well as meny more as citation for this information in Muhammad al-Durrah
// Liftarn 12:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
A paragraph was recently added to Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy, an article that needs to comply with WP:BLP and is also subject to this ArbComm remedy. The article has twice gone through a cycle of speedy delete - deletion review overturn - AFD keep. Here is the diff of the addition. The sourcing offered is from Salon.com. I followed the link, saw that it wasn't in the non-subscriber portion of the linked article. So my concerns about the source were aggravated. I then found Talk:Salon.com/as a source for Wikipedia, which seems to demonstrate a consensus that they can be a reliable source used judiciously, but should generally not be used for BLP sensitive details. Since this article is extra sensitive, I removed the paragraph and explained at Talk:Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy#Reversion of book note. Was I correct to do so? Please centralize discussion there. GRBerry 21:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There is an ongoing dispute at Talk:Prawn farm massacre#UTHR regarding whether a human rights organisation known as the University Teachers for Human Rights is a reliable source. To me, the issue seems clear, but another editor disagrees and I hope an outside opinion could prevent tens of kilobytes of unproductive discussion.
I think the argument of the editor disputing reliability can be summed up by the following quote:
UTHR is all tamil organization and, and they are inherently bias to tamil. They may have criticized LTTE(who won't ??) or the GOSL, but that doesn't NOT change the fact that they are a ALL tamil organization with an agenda against the Sinhalese people.
Note: LTTE refers to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam and GOSL refers to the Government of Sri Lanka.
I maintain that the UTHR is a reliable and neutral source, which has criticised both sides in the Sri Lankan Civil War, based on a brief search to see what others had to say about it:
The UTHR is not a pro-rebel group, so the editor disputing reliability has targeted the fact that their membership consists mostly or entirely of Tamils. The allegation that the UTHR has "an agenda against the Sinhalese people" or "is inherently bias"ed toward Tamils does not seem to mesh with what reliable sources have to say about the group.
Comments (here or on the article talk page) are welcome. -- Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
The owner and editor-in-chief of a newspaper, Nicholas F. Benton, wrote an article we're using as a source. The Falls Church News-Press has a paid circulation of about 30,000 and is the chief newspaper for its community. The paper has a staff of editors. It's not a free paper or a one-man operation. WP editors commenting at Talk:Kenneth Kronberg object that the article is self-published since the same guy who wrote it owns the newspaper. My view is that many reliable sources are owned or controlled by a single person, and that when an owner writes an article it doesn't necessarily have less credibility than when a staff writer does since the reliability of a source is tied to its overall editing process. The newspaper is used as a source in several other WP articles without controversy. [17] Any comments? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I would not consider that article to be a reliable source, even if it's publication usually is. As Marvin says, this is unusual. ← Ben B4 06:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I would be pleased if someone could advise if the following reference is considered a reliable source and verifiable on the subject of food intolerance, as it seems to have been reverted here without reasonable comment.
Clarke L, McQueen J,and others (1996);"The dietary Management of food allergy and Food Intolerance in Children and Adults". Australian Journal of Nutrition and Dietetics 53(3):89-98.)Full version of this reference together with references concerning food additives,may be viewed at [18] Jagra 07:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus has been using an article by Patryk Dole, published online by polonica.net (home page: [19], article: [20] ) as a reference for several articles. The Dole article is heavily cited at Kiev Offensive (1920), which includes the statement "Some scholars stress the effects of Soviet propaganda (Dole citation) in encouraging negative Ukrainian sentiment towards the Polish operation and Polish-Ukrainian history in general."
Dole is quoted at length in the WP article's notes, including the statement that "Most Ukrainians had no idea what Bolshevism was and were easily manipulated by the Russians. Besides, many of the Ukrainian peasants were very simple people who still had memories of serfdom, which was imposed on them by the Polish Szlachta (Nobility)." This language is rather loaded - as is the language in the rest of the article. The WP article's talk page indicates a fair amount of controversy.
Although P. removed many of the polonica.net references in articles yesterday, he has suggested that Dole's publication on that site doesn't necessarily disparage his reliability ( Talk:Treaty of Warsaw (1920)). However, Patryk Dole does not seem to be what most of us would consider a reliable historical source. He apparently participates in a blog [21], the "Christian Confederacy of Intermarium", but no academic or mainstream publications contain his work. Dole is mentioned in a discussion thread at University of New York - Buffalo [22], but not as a scholar.
A few sources [23], [24] put "Patryk Dole - The American University of Paris" at the top of his article, but a search for Dole at the AUP website yields no results. Novickas 15:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
As I said, I feel no special attachment to this ref; the only article still using it is Bezdany raid and I will fix it in a week or so. Or perhaps Novickas would try WP:SOFIXIT and do it for me, if he is so concerned about possible inaccuracies from that source?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 00:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
What if any value does this forbestraveler.com article have if I wanted to write about the hotel ? Kappa 03:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Similarly can I use this thing from Economist.com city guide to source a "largest hotel claim"? a "has indoor rain forest" statement? Kappa 04:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I am looking into including more academic sources at Watchmen (found plenty already), and I came across one that I was not sure seemed reliable. Reading Space in Watchmen is by Dr. Spiros Xenos, who calls himself an independent scholar. At the end of the paper, it says, "Dr Spiros Xenos has been researching and writing on comics for over ten years. He has presented papers at international conferences and in Australia, and published articles in general and academic journals. He completed his PhD thesis on spatiality and comics in 2002. He is on the International Editorial Board of the International Journal of Comic Art." The paper is linked to by the University of Technology, Sydney. How would one rate the credibility of this source? It does not seem published anywhere, which is why I was not certain. I have other academic sources that are published, but I am looking to encompass as many as possible. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 14:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd appreciate people's thoughts on globalresearch.ca as a reliable source. Tom Harrison Talk 22:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
An editor has been attempting to add a scan of the purported production schedule for Choke (film), seen at Image:Choke day 1 front.jpg. It is "released" in the public domain, but the editor has not claimed the document as his own, only scanning it and providing it for the article. There's been a disagreement about the appropriateness of this source, especially considering the verifiability and notability of the enclosed information. Is this image appropriately licensed for inclusion, and if it is, is the image appropriate to cite for information about the film? — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 16:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Reliable source, or as worthless as it's apparent namesake (IMDB)? Wily D 20:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, there's a content dispute over whether the recent changes to this article meet WP:RS and WP:NOR's standards. It appears that veteran editors believe the inclusion does not meet the criteria, but it is pretty tricky with the usage of "self-published" news sites to back up the claims of the anons and new users. Looking for some input since this is a, seemingly, gray area. Kyaa the Catlord 21:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
IMHO neither the anonymous website www.thereligionofpeace.com nor the contentious claims on www.religion-of-peace.com satisfy WP:RS and WP:V. Can anyone confirm this? -- Raphael1 19:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The context of this request is that this source is quoted in the Religion of peace article as an example of a group that uses the words "religion of peace" in a sarcastic way. It definitely does that. The site is not quoted as a source of data for terrorist attacks (although googling any of the attacks reported usually gives gives a news report showing details of the attack). I would say quoting the site as an example of sarcastic use of "the religion of peace" is legit. Quoting the commentary from the site would fail WP:NPOV. Mike Young 05:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I wrote a stubby but properly sourced article about a book called Skinny Bitch. A new editor keeps introducing poorly written and poorly sourced additions about a Chicago radio program. The edits are not vandalism, so I am bound by the 3RR. Can someone help? I already tried politely reasoning with the editor on her talk page, with little result.-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Really not certain what should happen to this page. It purports to be summary of the mob-execution of two men convicted of assassinating a judge. The photos appear to follow the summary, but there is no sourcing, no confirmation that the summary is a true version of what the photos show. For all we know it could be a fiction attached to unrelated photos. And then there's the issue of whether this belongs on the project in the first place, even if it is true. Does not seem to fit any Speedy criteria, and really not sure if it should be AFDed. But I do know that it is improper in it's current unsourced state, and that I simply do not have the knowledge to try to fix it myself. So I hope someone else can help clean it up, or help decide to toss it at AFD. - TexasAndroid
Is this article a reliable source for the statement, "If passed, the bill would have caused abortion to be treated as murder"? For background please see http://www.newsinsider.org/faq.html -- I note they have an editorial structure, but I don't know if they have a fact-checking system in place. ← BenB4 07:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
In the section concerning his last appearence in the Dark Tower, I wrote how his fate was controversial among the fans. Its easily one of the more controversial topics in the last novel and fans are still debating it to this day. I was wondering if using topics from thedarktower.net (one of the largest Dark Tower websites on the internet) would be good enough citation to show the conflicting views between fans.-- CyberGhostface 01:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Bluboar that forums are not reliable sources of information. -- Librarylefty 03:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Although I agree in general that forums are not reliable sources, if there is a claim that something is controversial, or frequently discussed online, then links to such discussions should be acceptable sources for that contention. Corvus cornix 23:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Looking for additional opinions on an article I've become involved with. There have been a number of fictional theme parks by this name over time, and there was an AFD deleted article at this location at one point on a fan-made theme park within one of the Roler Coaster tycoon games. Recently someone created a stub on another of the fictional Wonder Worlds, that was PRODed, and then convered into a sub-stub about a real Wonder World park in San Marcos, Texas. I then found the page on the Short Pages list and, being from the area, decided I could at least create a viable stub on the existing amusement park. At first I only sourced the park with it's own web page, and the article was properly tagged for sourcing and again PRODed. I have now added several more sources, mostly from travel sites, and officially contested the PROD. I also found that the cave that is the core of the park is an official Texas Historical Site, and tracked down the offical designation page for this on the Texas government web site.
Which brings the article to where it currently stands. The park is well known around the central Texas area, and is mentioned prominently on many pages that talk about what attractions San Marcos has to offer. But these are all effectively "trivial" sources because they really are just mentions. And I'm not 100% certain that the travel sites that I did find would qualify as "reliable" sourcing, though they are definitely not "trivial". Anyway, I would like for some additional opinions on the page and it's current sourcing. Between the travel sites and the official Texas Historical Site designation page, is the article sufficiently sourced now for a stub? If so, would someone neutral please judge if the sourcing tag still belong. Or, on the other extreeme, do I still have more work to make this a viable stub? - TexasAndroid 15:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Ive (unfortunately) gotten myself neck-deep into a longstanding argument on the Man vs. Wild Talk Page, in which one user in particular has attempted to put forth a criticism section that states that elements of the show are staged using sources that myself and a few others feel is flimsy at best. However, as the debate has begun to turn nasty, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if it is agreed to be reliable here.
The following are sources which have been used for criticism sections, all of which was removed.
1. [32] This picture, which user Rei has put forth that it appears that the raft was cut rather than fireburned, as the episode apparently stated. The problem I have with this is that his analysis is not backed up by any source other than photograph itself, which appears to me to be a violation of WP:OR, while another user, grahamdubya, has suggested that the image itself isnt strong enough evidence regardless.
2. [33] A youtube video of an episode where the unregistered user who used it as a source by stating that at one point in the video, a harness is visible. Again, no secondary source corroborating this claim, only the primary source from which the claim is based.
Analysis of videos posted on youtube with no secondary claim to introduce or corroborate that analysis was common on the original criticism section. For example this video, [34], from 4:44 onward, was used as a reference for a claim that because the cameraman followed the host, Bear Grylls, as he jumped off of a crevasse, the height of the crevasse wasnt as high as he claimed.
The rest of the evidence used for the criticism section can be seen in context here: [35]
3. Forum posts had been frequently implemented to present theories viewers had questioning the narrative presented in the show, including this forum post [36] questioning the opening sequence of the pilot episode.
4. The original criticism section also included 2 google searches elsewhere [37] [38] in order to show how there is widespread viewer criticism of the shows content.
If these are deemed to be acceptable sources, then I will reinstate it myself, but I am highly doubtful that it is.-- Tao of tyler 07:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
An RFC has been opened regarding the provenance of material that was originally published by Baker's defense. Talk:Nick Baker (prisoner in Japan)#Request for comments: Use of translated court documents as a source I appreciate comments from uninvolved editors. -- Sparkzilla talk! 16:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
if someone knows about this player please send us more informations about him your help is appreciated
I've been asked to repost this here from 'Reliable Sources'.
'I've been slightly worried, I think needlessly, but I am not expert on these rules, about possible objections to my using Michael Neumann as a source for a remark on Raul Hilberg as a life-long Republican voter. He wrote an 'In Memorian' article in Counterpunch recently. Michael Neumann is, for some (not myself) a controversial figure: Counterpunch is attacked as an, intrinsically, 'unreliable source', a view I find questionable (it depends on who wrote the article: they host people there who have long public records as senior administration officials and tenured academics).
Michael Neumann happens to be the son of Franz Neumann, who was Raul Hilberg's Phd supervisor, and oversaw the drafting of that historical masterpiece. There's a family connection, in short. If someone out there thinks this questionable, I'd appreciate a note. Nishidani 14:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)' Nishidani 08:58, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Whose source(s) is more reliable? What do the sources say? Topic experts would be nice. Moreschi Talk 21:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
this article has got lots of expert attention, but, by its nature as fringe scholarship, also lots of crank attention. The quotes of the JIES debate really say it all. If the article creates the impression that "neither side is really a fringe", it still needs further de-crankification. dab () 09:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
A debate is currently ongoing [40] at Francis Crick over the reliability of certain sources being used to verify some claims regarding Crick's alleged involvement with drugs, which a regular contributor to the page User:JWSchmidt feels are "unreliable sources". I'm not too sure, and to be honest I haven't found a conclusive answer in WP:RS. Can someone look in and give an opinion on the sources concerned? They are:
I'd be grateful for opinions, particularly on the newspaper sources. Badgerpatrol 17:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
DGG ( talk) 23:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The two disputed citations are for:
Neither of these two sources (above) are reliable sources as used by User:Badgerpatrol and they certainly do not provide the basis for an entire section in the Francis Crick article. User:Badgerpatrol's persistent attempts to keep citing these unreliable sources while refusing to cite the published biographies of Crick is an unproductive waste of time. -- JWSchmidt 17:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
1) Lay off the personal attacks. if you can't be civil, say nothing. 2) For casual readers of this debate, it's important to clarify that nobody disputes that Crick was an LSD user. All sources agree on this, and I believe John accepts this also. 3) The issue therefore seems to be, is it reasonable to state that Crick's drug use had any influence on his work? Here the evidence is more equivocal. I've invited John to alter the wording of the relevant material to a form that he finds acceptable. He has refused to do so. 4) Until now, the issue of relevance has been subordinated to John's bizarre belief that newspapers are somehow inherently unreliable (as stated above, there are now at least three known sources for Crick's drug use, including two national newspapers and a published biography of Crick by Matt Ridley, as well as numerous contextual sources establishing the involvement of the Crick's with figures in the drug scene. The wording of all these sources is crystal clear and unambiguous). I am happy to work with others (as stated ad nauseum) to pare down this material (and the article generally, which is overlong) to an acceptable length and to give this issue no more than the space it deserves in the context of what it is a biography of Crick's life. Not just his work. 5) Note that it was not me who originally added the material pertaining to Crick's involvement with drugs to the article. I have already worked to cut this material in half, have expressed repeatedly my opinion that it should not constitute a separate section, have added new references and rewritten the material to reflect the nature of the sources and the importance of the topic, have engaged in a civil (from my side) discussion on talk re the whole subject, and I have invited John on numerous occasions to work with me to continue this work and add the reference material that he has to hand and I do not. Without meaning to get personal, diatribes like the one above are the thanks I have received. 6) I will work to pare down the material and integrate it into the main text, per what seems to be the emerging consensus amongst the editors that have contributed so far to this discussion on Talk:Francis Crick and in this thread. If you want to continue this discussion with me John, keep a civil tongue in your head, otherwise say nothing at all. I have treated you with courtesy and respect at all times - I expect the same in reciprocation. If you can't manage that, leave. I will continue to work on Francis Crick in accordance with Wikipedia policy. Do not expect a response from me to personal attacks, incivility and patronising diatribes. Badgerpatrol 21:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be a hoax until there are no real sources. Anyone has an idea for getting facts? Greetings, Conny 19:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC).
Okay, I'm thinking of two articles in question with this query, but the principle applies to other articles. There are a number of relatively small martial arts schools with articles on Wikipedia. They have been discussed in multiple independent sources so notability is obvious. Shaolin-Do just survived an AfD with a pretty heavy consensus on the grounds that notability was shown by a number of newspaper articles in major newspapers discussing or mentioning that art.
However, the amount of information in those articles about these arts is usually only enough for a stub. From these newspaper articles you could gather what type of martial art it is (Kung Fu/Karate/Jujitsu/Tae Kwon Do ect), who runs the school, and typically where they teach and maybe a few short snippets of history or philosophy of that school. To get anything more than a stub (or at absolute most, a start-class article) you'd need more sources than that.
However, many of these schools have books about them, which include more elaborate histories, discussions of philosophy and training techniques, and a lot of information that would be useful for creating an encyclopedia article. These books are published by independent, reputable publishing firms, although they are written by heads or instructors of those schools. There has been some dispute over whether these are considered primary sources or secondary sources, and if they are considered reliable sources. They have been written by people very closely affiliated with the subject, but they have been published by an outside reputable publishing house and have presumably thus been through an independent editorial review. It could be seen as a secondary source, since it's not self published and it's been reviewed and approved by a mainstream publishing house which decided to take the financial and reputation risk on publishing it. It is argued by some editors that it is a primary source since it's written by a source very close to the subject.
I was curious what other editors thought about this issue, which would it be considered? -- Wingsandsword 23:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this site reliable? This is in reference to its use as a reference in Optimo for a statement that an anonymous editor has just removed for the third time. It seems like some of their content is user-submitted and I kind of doubt they're held to the same editorial standard as the rest of the bbc, although the article in question was at least written by a freelance journalist.-- P4k 06:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
A (terribly polite) dispute at Talk:Lauder on the reliability of older historical works when these do not correspond with more recent interpretations. Any input much appreciated. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
My argument here has been consistant. We are indebted to pre-twentieth century scholars for their indefatigable locating and deciphering of ancient manuscipts, documents, and charters. Without their industry today's generation would have been in difficulties. Most if not all of these industrious people were scholars, some, Like Sir William Fraser, of very high regard. Who is suddenly to say that late twentieth century scholars are superior (unless they have some sort of X-Ray vision with documents)? One of the big problems we are faced with is the interpretation of the ancient writings or, indeed, events. It is common for several handwriting experts to disagree. Moreover, as Joseph Bain (another great Victorian scholar) points out, what of the huge number of documents which we no loger have.
In the case of Lauder/Lauderdale we appear to have no extant charters before de Morville. This is much the same throughout Scotland. It does not mean that that was where history commenced. When we get back to the pre-1200s we enter a very grey area as far as verifiability is concerned throughout Great Britain and not just in Scotland. If I find twenty books written between, say, 1700 and 1920, all citing similar things albeit in slightly different formats, and all those books citing even older documentations, should I say all these scholars were crétins just because they reached similar conclusions or they were not born in the 20th century or held a different conception of Scottish history to a variety of sceptics or purists of today?
We on Wikipedia strive to construct articles which will be informative and to the best of our ability have a semblance of truth. We don't come here to construct fantasy. If I were writing about Paris and Helen would you delete the article? Because, lets face it, how many accurate sources are there for the existance of all the Greek myths that we still love and even make films about? If detractors of articles, critics of what has been presented, scoff and say 'what a story', fine. But if it is adequately sourced should they be wrecking or deleting the article just because of their own personal opinions? I say, comment if you must, add consturctive comment with sources if you can. David Lauder 19:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Houston Freeways is a comprehensive self-published book about the freeway system of Houston, Texas. I know that self-published sources are generally bad, but this seems to be a rare exception. It's well-cited (which, of course, means that I could go to those sources, but I don't have access to them), and has been listed alongside a number of non-self-published books on the FHWA's site. Is it reasonable to use this book as a factual reference? -- NE2 23:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
What about his other works, like TexasFreeway.com? -- NE2 07:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
A single-purpose anon IP user wants to know if Wikipedia can cite as definitive FACT the following sentence from the Encyclopedia of Japan. [51]. The only question I have with this quote is the issue of weasel words like “many” popping up to implicitly endorse some kind of faulty logic, so I asked if the user knew who the author was. His reply wasn’t too helpful, [52] so I looked up the source myself.
The article is entitled “foreigners in Japan” by William Wetherall (Volume 2, 1st ed., 1983, p. 314). It doesn’t cite any sources, and the only thing that I could find that Wetherall apparently published related to the subject is a report on foreigners in Japan for a partisan think tank entitled “Minority Rights Group" (Report No. 3, new 1983 edition) That source gives Wetherall’s bio. It reads: “William Wetherall is a graduate student in Asian Studies at the University of California Berkeley. His Japanese research covered popular culture, modern literature, contemporary cinema, and minority discrimination.”
Any ideas on what to do with this source:
1. Cite it completely as fact? 2. Cite it as Wetherall’s opinion….something like “Wetherall writes….” 3. Cite it in part with ellipses that remove words like “many”? 4. Don’t use the source at all? 5. Keep looking for another source that says “some” instead of “many”?
Experienced editors haven't expressed an opinion on the gaijin talk page yet, and I suspect some of the single-purpose users are getting restless. Comments from experienced editors here would be most helpful. In good faith, J Readings 10:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
relationships, even though, on a psychological plain, tensions exist.
Apologies for bringing this to the administrators noticeboard, I'm sure there is a better place for this (and if so please point me in the right direction). How does one judge reliable sources? I have found a site which appears on 2522 different Wikipedia pages, called www.onlineworldofwrestling.com [54] and am finding that a large number of articles are relying on this site as not just their primary source of information, but the sole source of information. Considering that anyone can pay the $25.00 to submit a profile to this site, and then in turn have it used to source a Wikipedia article, I have my doubts as to its reliability. Is this cause for concern, or no big deal? Burntsauce 21:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
(the above has been copied to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard at the suggestion of WilyD.)
(reindent) If this is consensually deemed as an unreliable source, what is to be done about the hundreds, neigh, thousands of articles in Category:American professional wrestlers and similar categories? Burntsauce 22:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Untrue, someone familiar with the area of professional wrestling I can confirm everything that I've seen at this site has been researched pretty carefully and reported accurately. I've also spoken to the creator of the site and he seems reliable enough for a source here. Burntsauce, you're just looking for reasons to falsely use WP:BLP and WP:V on the Pro Wrestling WikiProject, which you have been known to do. — Moe ε 22:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I concur with Moe. The Hyb rid 23:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Right, here's evidence it's a reliable source, I've picked a line from The Undertakers article - but finally defeated Kennedy in a Last Ride match at Armageddon 2006[128], which directs to this, which quote: LAST RIDE MATCH: The Undertaker defeated Mr. Ken Kennedy.. The Undertaker tombstoned Mr. Kennedy on top of the hurse and then put the bloody Kennedy inside of the hurse.. . Now, J.smith, please tell me why OWW isn't reliable having just provided you with a perfectly good example of why it is reliable. EDIT: By the way, Burntsauce has gone AWOL since this started... Davnel03 18:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to say that I do not feel that this site is a very reliable source. It has lots of rumors, is far from comprehensive, and has lots of other errors/mistakes. While it is not directly user-generated, much of the info comes from contributors who e-mail them, and a lot of it is not even formatted or checked for spelling. It is a decent fansite, but to use it as a source is asking for trouble. In fact, there is some strange notion that every match by a wrestler needs to be cited, which is probably just a bit over the top, and we should use published sources to document notable facts, not predetermined wrestling matches. Biggspowd 17:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate editors' thoughts on the third-party reliability of The Racial Slur Database, Roadjunky.com and two personal homepages that copy verbatim an essay entitled "Japanyes;THE THIRD EDITION" of publicly unverifiable origin [57] [58]. All four citations are used to justify the following contentious and exceptional clause in the gaijin article: "...[gaijin] is considered a racial slur by many to whom the word is applied." J Readings 10:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
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(
help)As a citation for this information in Backmasking:
Slayer included at the start of the band's 1985 album Hell Awaits a deep backmasked voice chanting "Join Us" over and over at increasing volumes.
Though it is posted at a blog, I find this article well-written and credible. Others have disagreed at the talk page. Λυδαcιτγ 20:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Let me quote relevant policies:
My advice is as follows: if the information is not contradicted by more reliable sources, use it with a note that it was published on a blog, and add information about its author, publisher, fact-checking (or lack of thereof), pay attention to WP:NPOV#Undue_weight (if the extra information blog provies are not very notable, they should be used with caustion). If the information is contradicted by more reliable sources, it should not be used.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 01:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
According to Michael Fortes' "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Slayer", published at jefitoblog, Slayer included at the start of the band's 1985 album Hell Awaits a deep backmasked voice chanting "Join Us" over and over at increasing volumes.
There is an ongoing dispute on Stephen Barrett that may come down to the reliability of the sources provided. In short, Stephen Barrett is not board certified. This information has been verified by several primary sources including Stephen Barrett himself at Wikipedia and some legal documents [1] [2]. The question is open about the necessity of secondary sources to support these primary sources and whether any of secondary sources we have meet reliability per Wikipedia policy.
The two sources which we are examining now are:
Other sources to be examined include:
The content which will need support will essentially say: "Dr. Barrett is not board certified." Third-party opinions about the reliability of these sources to support this content will be most appreciated and will certainly help us to arrive at a consensus on this issue. Thank you. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
In an earlier phase of this discussion I made an extensive argument about the reliability and notability of the source Dynamic Chiropractic ( found here: [ [3]] ). This trade magazine can not just be dismissed. MaxPont 21:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
DGG, if I am not mistaken(!) I believe you misunderstand the situation, and thereby are doing Barrett an injustice with this statement:
There are three points to clarify here:
1. The difference between specialization and certification. They are not the same. Specialization is an extension of the basic medical education, while board certification is a step beyond that. At the time Barrett took and failed the exam, only 1/3 of psychiatrists were board certified and his lack of certification was never a problem during his entire career. He was able to testify as a psychiatric expert witness without any problems.
2. It is not necessary to be an MD, an MD specialist, or even a board certified MD, to be considered by courts to be an expert witness on a medical subject. There are examples of persons who have established their expertise on subjects outside of their own profession, who are admitted by courts as expert witnesses. This also applies outside of the medical and scientific fields. While it may be unusual, it does happen.
Barrett's status as an expert witness in the later years (since his retirement) has not normally (if ever) been as a psychiatrist, but as an expert in quackery and healthfraud, and in that capacity he is considered by many to be one of (if not "the") the foremost expert(s) in the world. His expertise on those subjects has been recognized by numerous private and governmental organizations and consumer protection agencies. It is not necessary to be educated in a quack field (such as homeopathy) to be able to use common sense, knowledge of what is legal or illegal, knowledge of consumer protection laws, knowledge of ethics, and knowledge of scientific matters, to be able to judge whether a claim is proper or improper, and thus classify it as quackery, healthfraud, or something like it.
3. I'm not sure that it is legal for an MD who has not passed specialty exams to claim to be a specialist. The same would apply to board certification.
I hope that my explanations help. I could be mistaken on some minor details about the legalities about point three. I just wish to clear up a misunderstanding that is injurious and unfair. He has not been deceptive or misleading in this matter. On the contrary, it is Bolen who has been misleading, weaselly, and libelous in his attacks on Barrett, and he is being sued for it. We don't want to repeat, support, or participate in his perfidy here at Wikipedia. -- Fyslee/ talk 08:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
You cannot say he failed the exam, or anything else, on the basis of a posting to Wikipedia, because we have no way of knowing whether or not it is true. that would not just be using a primary source, but using ourselves as a primary source.
Per the discussion here (at this most helpful page), I have put forth a proposal to add the information that Barrett is not Board Certified. Please feel free to drop by and weigh in on this proposal. Hopefully the guidance provided here will help with the resolution to this long dispute. Thanks again. -- Levine2112 discuss 16:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
There is still disagreement at Talk:Stephen Barrett over inserting the verified content that Barrett is not board certified, despite the finding here that say our primary sources are reliable and sufficient. Above, it is stated that when it comes to sources, the more the merrier. I would appreciate an analysis of the following two secondary sources (which will be used to support the reliable primary sources discussed above).
Both articles come from widely read trade publications. Are these sources reliable in terms of secondary sources of the information (that Barrett is not Board Certified)? Basically, those editors who are in favor of excluding this content feel that we would need a reliable secondary source to provide the context and weight for this issue. Judging by your comments above, I don't know that this is necessary, but if it is a chance to end this long dispute, I certainly welcome your expert analysis. Thanks for your time and guidance in this matter. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Wjhonson 18:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)"He is not board certified (citation), but he responds by stating that 'It is not necessary to be board-certified to practice psychiatry'" (citation)
Search engine optimization is a featured article candidate. Due to the nature of the subject, we have relied heavily on web sources, including several prominent blogs.
A reviewer has asked for community input as to whether these sources, and others used in the article, are reliable or not. Please comment here or there. Jehochman Talk 01:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Every once in a while someone tries to "correct" the Super Nintendo Entertainment System article with their pronunciation, which usually results in a few pointless edits until we reach a compromise. So I decided to research the issue, and discovered (unsurprisingly) that people pronounce it in many different ways: "sness", "snez", "s-nes", "s-n-e-s", "super nes", "super nintendo", etc. The ideal statement for the article then would be along the lines of "English speakers pronounce SNES in various ways, including ...". The hard part is finding a reliable source, as AFAICT no one has bothered to write an article on the subject. I have an argument for using what is normally an unreliable source, but I suspect my line of reasoning will be opposed by some editors. Step by step, the reasoning is:
In general, this sort of thing could support a statement of existence like "Some people believe Y about X" or "People believe different things about X, including but not limited to Y1 and Y2". It cannot be used to support statements like "Everyone/No one believes Y about X", or any quantitative statement about levels of belief or non-belief in Y, or "few/many/most" semi-quantitative statements, or any indication as to whether Y is actually true or false.
This could also apply to use of voodoo polls, although they may often be disqualified under criterion 3 on the argument that people lie to screw with the poll results.
Any thoughts? I've read some of the past discussion in various talk archives, but it only went as far as step 2 in anything I've found. Sometimes there was consensus, and sometimes not. Anomie 22:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't there a ''Nintendo Power'' which clarified that it is pronounced "Super NES"?-- Flamgirlant 21:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we consider this discussion resolved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:21, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro, produces the CCG Magic: The Gathering. As part of their website, [7], they regularly produce informational columns [8] and provide specific information on cards [9]. They also answer questions [10] . Sometimes the articles can be a bit silly (I included one for an example), but in general, I feel it's clearly a professional site with an acceptable standard for accuracy. Now there may be concerns about marketing bias and other such issues, but I think that the appropriate response is to use them with a slight level of caution, and if other reliable sources contradict them, to include that contradiction if it comes up. IOW, I believe that usage of the site is acceptable in general, and only individual specific concerns are worth covering. Is this acceptable or not? I've invited the person who disagrees with this to make their position clear, but you can also read about it on the MTG Wikiproject's discussion page. FrozenPurpleCube 16:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, this is a gross misrepresentation. I've only been removing a narrow case of references; claims of "Notable cards" sourced only to WOTC's website. Since when do we cite the publisher of a product as a source for opinionated claims about their product? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 22:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Ideally, we wouldn't have these bulleted lists of trivia; instead, incorporating them into the body of the article. The first thing we need to do with eliminate this heavy element of parroting WOTC's party line on their products. Why are we citing the official site of the publisher of a product for critical reception of that product? Why should we mention their faux critical reception at all? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 05:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
As I wrote earlier, as long as those guidelines are followed, wizard.com can be used as a source. Let's review them one by one:
Bottom line is that if its only a producer who says its product is notable, we shouldn't repeat their claims, but if the producer is also a publisher of a widely respect (correct me if I am wrong) journal or informative website, that source can be considered more reliable, but it should be made clear in the text that a possibility of bias or unreliability is higher - so if there is no clear consensus of for or against (as seems to be the case), I suggest stating in text (or via dedicated footnote) that the claim about notability comes from wizards.com. PS. I'd suggest discussing the reliability of publications on wizard.com - is it a respectable site or 'company's mouthpiece' - as crucial in solving this debate.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
WP:N. Where's the skepticism? In all other subjects, we assume that the publisher of a product has a vested interest in promoting interest in their product. Why is this suddenly different for Magic? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem with WOTC's content is that WOTC has a vested interest in giving undue weight to their own products, as all corporate mouthpieces are generally assumed to be doing. (Why else would they exist?)
The question I pose to you is such: when has wizards.com been critical of a product they're selling? When have they ever seen fit not to cover WOTC's latest tournament or set as unimportant? Why can we trust them to be impartial about what is important and what is not, regarding their own products? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"Wizards.com is a promotional outlet" is the demonstrated objection. Every single new set is described in glowing terms. Information is rationed according to WOTC's promotional plan. Wizards.com doesn't comment on WOTC's ongoing legal matters. Promotional activities (You Make The Card, upcoming events, previews of upcoming sets) are intermixed freely with coverage of current events, with little dsitinction drawn between them.
The problems are more ones of omission and tone, ones that are part and parcel of the editors being hired by WOTC and the whole site belonging to WOTC. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Does someone have, handy, a non-subjective definition of notable? Right now, in the articles, it seems to be "any card someone thought was neat," which isn't very helpful, or "whatever card Wizards has seen fit to advertise," which doesn't serve the purpose of an encyclopedia.
By the way, if anyone wants an example of the promotional tone, I suggest this article, written shortly after the release of Fifth Dawn and currently being used in Fifth Dawn as a source to indicate that a card that was created in a publicity stunt is noteworthy. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 02:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Guys, have you reached a compromise? Or do you need further input on reliability?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 01:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, where I am is here: Don't make lists of notable cards (or example cards or whatever) with no sources or WOTC-owned sources, because these sections will need to be incorporated into the article body, and personal observations and opinions aren't useful for that.
I dunno about anyone else. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 03:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Article deleted a couple of times at The Yogurt Connection: Pioneering Drug Ring for lack of notability sourcing, it is now at Linda Leary, Richard and Paul Heilbrunn, And The Yogurt Connection. I've been in contact with the author, and the unwieldy current name is a known, separate issue from what I am bringing to this noticeboard. The article actually does have sourcing, but they are all offline sources, and thus cannot be easily verified. I'm no expert on sourcing myself, and after talks with the author I decided to get some consultation from those who do consider themselves more expert in sourcing. Do the external, offline, sources as given meet requirements for the article, or is more needed. Thanks in advance for any time/effort on this issue. - TexasAndroid 21:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Article has been moved to The Yogurt Connection and online sourcing has been added to two of four sources. The Time, NY Time and AP sources were discovered in a proprietary LexisNexis database. The indictment is a paper document obtained by me from the federal court. Also, the article is now, inexplicably to me, no longer visible. Thank you. -- I3142p168 22:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we consider this dicussion resolved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned if this site is a reliable source: [15]. It neither lists where the information comes from, or even gives a date for the club's founding. I am concern that it's not suitable, and that a better source should be found. I can't even find out anything about the person responsible for the site's content. How do we know David Hayes (the person claiming the copyright) knows what the oldest anything is? I'm just not sure it should be trusted. This isn't to say the information is controversial and needs to be removed but I think a better source would be appropriate. FrozenPurpleCube 19:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Mainstream websites published and maintained by notable media outlets are reliable. A minor webpage or a book publisher are less reliable, but unless the information is contradictory to something else we have it can stay - although it may be a good idea to mention a source in the text (ex. Bill Wall states that...).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
As a citation for this information in Antisemitism:
Some have argued that the charge of antisemitism is being misused as a way to silence criticism of Israel.
As a citation for this information in Antisemitism:
After Jimmy Carter published his book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid he was labelled an antisemite.
As a citation for this information in Antisemitism:
Rashid Khalidi, a Director of the Middle East Institute at Columbia University and a target of Campus Watch says:
"This noxious campaign is intended to silence such perfectly legitimate criticism, by tarring it with the brush of anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism, truly loathsome charges. They reveal the lengths that these people apparently feel impelled to go to in order to silence a true debate on campus."
I find the sources reliable. They are from a collection of print news media as well as scolars in the field of politics. Others have disagreed at the talk page. // Liftarn
In fact, the issues here are much more complex, and it's rather disappointing that User:Liftarn uses this board to mis-characterize them, in an attempt to get support for his position. To begin with, the sources used are not scholarly sources about antisemitism, but for the most part are people who have voiced fairly extreme views, then claimed that they have been, or perhaps will be, accused of antisemitism. These claims are entirely self-serving, and in no case actually provide any example of who has accused them of antisemitism; they're just vague smears. Second, the material itself is not relevant to the antisemitism article, which is about actual antisemitism, not vague claims that people have been accused of antisemitism but deny the charges. Third, it is a truism that everyone accused of antisemitism insists that they are not antisemitic, and is being targeted for political reasons - David Duke says it, Jew Watch says it, etc. Even if we had more than a vague claim from someone that they had been accused of antisemitism, the protestations of innocence are predictable, and not notable. Fourth, the entire topic is not particularly notable; one would never find this kind of vague, self-serving, political material in a real encyclopedia. Fifth, the material has already been rejected by AfD processes - Liftarn has been trying to shop this material around encyclopedia articles for a year now, including it in the List of political epithets article, and at least a half-dozen others. The material has been rejected by a wide variety of editors, and User:Liftarn's edits at this point are disruptive. Jayjg (talk) 13:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
// Liftarn
Briefly, I agree with Blueboar that it looks like the Undue Weight/FRINGE issue; a discussion needs to resolve the question whether it is a view important enough to include in the article or not. For the record, I think it is a widely enough heard view to merit an inclusion, but let me try to help the discussion by addressing the concern this board was designed to deal with, that of reliability. are the sources used to back up the above assertion reliable? Per WP:ATT/FAQ: Mainstream websites, newspapers and magazines published and maintained by notable media outlets, Books and journals published by universities and known publishing houses and written by widely published authors. Looking at the sources in question:
Overall, the sources seem reliable, and the amount of them indicates to me that it is not a 'fringe' view.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Sources are OK and prove the fact that was written by Liftarn. -- Dezidor 18:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know if the al Jazeera video and transcript linked in naked short selling (see end of "media coverage" is a reliable source and thus is worthwhile to be linked. My tendency is to think that it is not, but I am interested in hearing other views.-- Samiharris 19:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we consider this dicussion resolved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
No, I do not believe it has. While I respect the opinions that have been offered, I do not see how a propaganda outlet run by a Persian Guilf government can be said to produce reports that are considered reliable sources by Wikipedia.-- Samiharris 15:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I am unsure whether or not Detstar (a GoldenEye 007 fan-site) can be used as a source for information on the GoldenEye 007 article. I do not believe so, as that website is not an official source of information on that game. Of course, given that there are no official GoldenEye websites anymore, could it just be a matter of whose GoldenEye fan-site is the biggest to determine what's "official" and what isn't? SpinyMcSpleen 23:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Discussion is going on at High School Musical 2, as to if the site tommy2.net can be considered a reliable source. The site has been known for breaking news that interests tweens, however my concern is they don't cite sources themselves, and I can't find any third-party mention of the site. I've asked proponents of the site to back up their claims and cite where Tommy2.net is referenced as a source by a media outlet, even Tiger Beat. Meanwhile, I've decided to be responsible and ask folks who are more knowledgeable than I to weigh in :) -- Ipstenu ( talk • contribs) 19:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I have serious reservations about the validity of the sources used on this page. Note that Mr John Hill who has tried to correct the misquotes and sources used has recieved considerable abuse and character assasination from my Burdak and DrBrij. The article is a seriously flouting many of wiki's principles of a NPOV. Please see the discussion to the article and you get an idea of what is happening. Also speak to John Hill.-- Sikh-history 09:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
FAIRlds.org is an apologetic web site operated by Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research. The website has been running since 1998. FAIR is funded by donations and staffed by volunteers. They claim that articles are peer-reviewed, they have an annual conference where papers are presented. More information is available on their [ FAQ]. There has been considerable discussion at talk:First_Vision about whether this is a reliable source. Opinions, expert or otherwise, would be appreciated. 74s181 02:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I have seen several cases of people using material posted on blogs, personal websites, online forums et.c. that claims to be from a reliable source (like a print newspaper). Even if it's not possible to check if their version of the article is genuine or entierly fictional is it still reliable? // Liftarn 13:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Mikhail Meltyukhov is a modern Russian historian, mostly unknown and uncited in the West (which is by no means a hint of his reliability or lack of it, most scholars from non-English speaking countries are unknown and uncited in the West; this only makes estabilishing their reliablity more difficult as it is hard to find reviews and commentary on them in English). His work Stalin's Missed Chance (from 2000, albeit due to poor reference formatting and my lack of command in Russian I cannot vouch for the data of publication) was apparently quite a hit in Russia, in has brought him to the attention of some Western historians. Later, however (2001?), Melt. published a book that has proven to be much more controversial: Soviet-Polish Wars. Political and Military standoff of 1918-1939. The book was first brought to our attention when User:Irpen started using it as a source about attrocities allegedly committed by the Polish Army during the Polish-Soviet War. Since those allegations were quite new to us, questions related to WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and particulary Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources were raised. Two academic reviews in English were found, both very highly critical of Melt.'s work in general and this book in particular:
Peter Cheremushkin (from Moscow State University), Russian-Polish Relations: A Long Way From Stereotypes to Reconciliation, InterMarium Volume 5 (an academic journal of nstitute of Political Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences and Columbia University's East Central European Center). With reliability of author and publisher estabilished, let me bring a few quotes from the journal: p18: "Russian historians were unable to take a united stand against those who claim that “nothing wrong happened in Katyn.” Some historical publications have appeared in this context, such as a book by Mikhail Meltyukhov called Soviet-Polish Wars: Military and Political Confrontation in 1918-1939.42."[...] "This [Meltyukhov's - note by P.P.] point of view can be used to justify the execution of the Polish officers in 1940." [...] "But can this point of view be considered correct if it is so close to Stalinist and neoimperial concepts?"
Polish professor of Jagiellonian University, Andrzej Nowak, in his conference paper writes (p.9): "It would be possible to indicate various examples of more subtle apologias for the Empire, linked with the rejection of all arguments for its victims or critics. Examples which dress themselves in the trappings of the most academic monograph. [...] A more brutal example of the same tendency is expressed in the book by the professional historian from Moscow, Mikhail Meltyukhov, dedicated to the Polish-Soviet conflicts of the twentieth century. These conflicts are, for him, fragments of eternal Western aggression against Russia. When Russia (in this case, Soviet Russia) comes into conflict it is only to take what is rightfully hers. Stalin appears as a genial successor to Catherine II. The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact and the involvement of the USSR in the attack on Poland in September 1939 are presented as purely defensive postures, underlining the primacy of Russian raison d’etat. This posture represented not only Stalin’s profound realism but also historical justice and even – argues Meltyukhov – humanitarianism. In this context the mass deportations of more than half a million people from the territory occupied by the Red Army in September 1939 to camps in the depths of the Soviet Union is presented as a “peacekeeping mission” which prevented the murder of those Poles deported to Siberia by protecting them from the Ukrainians panting with thirst for revenge...". Please also note a damning footnote: "M. Meltyukhov, Sovetsko-polskie voiny. Voienno-politicheskoe protivostoianie 1918-1939 gg., Moskva 2001 – compare my comprehensive review concentrating on the shocking falsehoods in this book – in: A. Nowak, Od imperium do imperium. Spojrzenia na historię Europy Wschodniej, Kraków 2004, p. 258-271."
In light of those two reviews, it has been proposed at Talk:Mikhail_Meltyukhov#Criticism and Talk:Mikhail_Meltyukhov#Request_for_positive_reviews_of_Soviet-Polish_Wars, that unless positive academic (and preferably Western) reviews of Melt.'s works are presented (or critical reviews of Cheremushkin and Nowak works as partisan are presented), Melt.'s works should not be used as references for alleged Polish attrocities in particular, and areas where his "Stalinist and neoimperial" bias can affect in general (or at least, that such bias should be noted in text). Since in two weeks since discussions at the above discussion page stopped no requested positive reviews have been presented, I would like to ask editors interested in reliablity whether they feel it would now be justified to remove the controversial references to Melt. from our project? Note that nobody is questioning the Melt's reliablity where the references to his work concern purerly military matters (numbers, dates, strategy), only where they concern the issue of national POV, neutrality and undue weight/fringe to controversial statements (ex. about Polish army alleged attrocities not confirmed by any other work).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Update. Nowak in his 2004 book in detail lists bias and inaccuracies concerning Polish-Russian relations in this book, primarily pointing out that Poland is always portrayed as an aggressor and many instances of Russian aggression toward Poland are ignored: Bar Confederation for him is not a 'pro-Polish independence movement' but only an 'anti-religious tolerance' one; for a comprehensive study of Polish-Russian relations, there is no mention of Polish-Russian War of 1792 nor of Targowica Confederation; in another example, he claims that 60,000 Soviet POWs died in Polish camps during the Polish-Soviet war, and all Polish POWs were returned safely - ignoring the recent finding of both Polish and Russian historians that for both sides, POWs losses were similar (15,000-20,000) (For more on this subject, see Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919-1924) and Polish prisoners and internees in Soviet Union and Lithuania (1919-1921)); Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is declared non-infringing on Soviet-Polish Non-Aggression Pact and as containing no anti-Polish aspects; Soviet invasion of Poland is termed 'peace operation' and 'liberation'; and main concern of Soviet government during its occupation of Poland was... the well-being of Polish citizens (deportations were meant to safeguard Poles from retribution of now-liberated minorities in that region, and Katyn massacre is justifed due to "60,000 Soviet POWs murdered during the Polish-Soviet War". Nowak also criticizes the work on methodological grounds, noting its reliance of Soviet sources like Nikolai Kuzmin Kruszenije trietjego pochoda Ententy (1958) or Paweł Olszański's Riżskij dogowor (1969) and near complete omission of any works from Russian authors who would disagree with his claims, Polish or Western historiography.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 11:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
A RFC has been opened regarding the use of a published appellate court opinion as a source in the article Right to bear arms. To what extent does such an opinion constitute a reliable source in articles not about the legal case in which the opinion was issued? PubliusFL 17:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone advise me whether the Statements and Recommendations of the International Herpes Management Forum (Editors of the Journal ‘Herpes’) and sourced from their website, [1] are considered a Reliable Source and Verifiable? I have been reverted several times now, without discussion on the article pages, but generalised comments made on my talk page and on other editors pages to the effect of unsourced material, quote mining, and lack of peer reveiwed sources? The particular quotes used are listed below.
The following has also been reverted without discussion by the same editor on a separate article on the basis of unsourced material and pseudoscience! And so I seek independent opinion on V and RS before engaging in further attempts at discussion.
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Yes Piotr, leaving aside generalized accusations that arise from this, made on various user talk pages, such as here but more specifically to RS: here 21st june revert and here 1st july revert
I think dispute resolution should be the last avenue, what I would like to know is there a real issue of RS or just editor prejudices/ opinion? Jagra 03:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
More specifically, Steam_(content_delivery)#Crossplatform_Support. I dont think this should be there because its interpretation of primary sources and the given secondary sources is digg.com . What does everyone think? Corpx 19:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Trawick, Prof. Margaret (1999), "Lessons from Kokkodaicholai", Proceedings of Tamil Nationhood & Search for Peace in Sri Lanka, Carleton University, pp. 1–10
Does using this violate WP:RS ? This is Professor Trawicks home page. This has been disputed in the Prawn farm massacre article. Thanks Taprobanus 17:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
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help). I wil use that instead. Thansk for all your help
Taprobanus 15:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Administrator, I have the following situation:
I have been editing the article on Hipgnosis off and on, adding artwork to the article, as Hipgnosis is a graphic design company that designed some of the most famous album covers of the past 30 years, including Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. By way of illustrating their work, I have been including the various album covers that they designed.
However, User:Moe Epsilon consistently reverts the edits, claiming that the use of the album covers in the article violates copyright. There has been a lengthy discussion, principally with other editors. User:Moe Epsilon's reverts are bordering on vandalism, as no reasonable argument will satisfy him/her.
My position (and that of other editors) is that the use of the album covers to illustrate Hipgnosis' work is warranted—after all, they are an important graphic design outfit. Therefore, including the album covers in the article falls under the rubrick of fair use. User:Moe Epsilon, on the other, clearly does not believe that any use of copyrighted material is allowed in the article, regardless of relevance.
I'd ask someone to please settle this issue, as it is becoming irritating. Thank you. -- TallulahBelle 22:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
as well as meny more as citation for this information in Muhammad al-Durrah
// Liftarn 12:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
A paragraph was recently added to Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy, an article that needs to comply with WP:BLP and is also subject to this ArbComm remedy. The article has twice gone through a cycle of speedy delete - deletion review overturn - AFD keep. Here is the diff of the addition. The sourcing offered is from Salon.com. I followed the link, saw that it wasn't in the non-subscriber portion of the linked article. So my concerns about the source were aggravated. I then found Talk:Salon.com/as a source for Wikipedia, which seems to demonstrate a consensus that they can be a reliable source used judiciously, but should generally not be used for BLP sensitive details. Since this article is extra sensitive, I removed the paragraph and explained at Talk:Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy#Reversion of book note. Was I correct to do so? Please centralize discussion there. GRBerry 21:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There is an ongoing dispute at Talk:Prawn farm massacre#UTHR regarding whether a human rights organisation known as the University Teachers for Human Rights is a reliable source. To me, the issue seems clear, but another editor disagrees and I hope an outside opinion could prevent tens of kilobytes of unproductive discussion.
I think the argument of the editor disputing reliability can be summed up by the following quote:
UTHR is all tamil organization and, and they are inherently bias to tamil. They may have criticized LTTE(who won't ??) or the GOSL, but that doesn't NOT change the fact that they are a ALL tamil organization with an agenda against the Sinhalese people.
Note: LTTE refers to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam and GOSL refers to the Government of Sri Lanka.
I maintain that the UTHR is a reliable and neutral source, which has criticised both sides in the Sri Lankan Civil War, based on a brief search to see what others had to say about it:
The UTHR is not a pro-rebel group, so the editor disputing reliability has targeted the fact that their membership consists mostly or entirely of Tamils. The allegation that the UTHR has "an agenda against the Sinhalese people" or "is inherently bias"ed toward Tamils does not seem to mesh with what reliable sources have to say about the group.
Comments (here or on the article talk page) are welcome. -- Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
The owner and editor-in-chief of a newspaper, Nicholas F. Benton, wrote an article we're using as a source. The Falls Church News-Press has a paid circulation of about 30,000 and is the chief newspaper for its community. The paper has a staff of editors. It's not a free paper or a one-man operation. WP editors commenting at Talk:Kenneth Kronberg object that the article is self-published since the same guy who wrote it owns the newspaper. My view is that many reliable sources are owned or controlled by a single person, and that when an owner writes an article it doesn't necessarily have less credibility than when a staff writer does since the reliability of a source is tied to its overall editing process. The newspaper is used as a source in several other WP articles without controversy. [17] Any comments? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I would not consider that article to be a reliable source, even if it's publication usually is. As Marvin says, this is unusual. ← Ben B4 06:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I would be pleased if someone could advise if the following reference is considered a reliable source and verifiable on the subject of food intolerance, as it seems to have been reverted here without reasonable comment.
Clarke L, McQueen J,and others (1996);"The dietary Management of food allergy and Food Intolerance in Children and Adults". Australian Journal of Nutrition and Dietetics 53(3):89-98.)Full version of this reference together with references concerning food additives,may be viewed at [18] Jagra 07:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus has been using an article by Patryk Dole, published online by polonica.net (home page: [19], article: [20] ) as a reference for several articles. The Dole article is heavily cited at Kiev Offensive (1920), which includes the statement "Some scholars stress the effects of Soviet propaganda (Dole citation) in encouraging negative Ukrainian sentiment towards the Polish operation and Polish-Ukrainian history in general."
Dole is quoted at length in the WP article's notes, including the statement that "Most Ukrainians had no idea what Bolshevism was and were easily manipulated by the Russians. Besides, many of the Ukrainian peasants were very simple people who still had memories of serfdom, which was imposed on them by the Polish Szlachta (Nobility)." This language is rather loaded - as is the language in the rest of the article. The WP article's talk page indicates a fair amount of controversy.
Although P. removed many of the polonica.net references in articles yesterday, he has suggested that Dole's publication on that site doesn't necessarily disparage his reliability ( Talk:Treaty of Warsaw (1920)). However, Patryk Dole does not seem to be what most of us would consider a reliable historical source. He apparently participates in a blog [21], the "Christian Confederacy of Intermarium", but no academic or mainstream publications contain his work. Dole is mentioned in a discussion thread at University of New York - Buffalo [22], but not as a scholar.
A few sources [23], [24] put "Patryk Dole - The American University of Paris" at the top of his article, but a search for Dole at the AUP website yields no results. Novickas 15:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
As I said, I feel no special attachment to this ref; the only article still using it is Bezdany raid and I will fix it in a week or so. Or perhaps Novickas would try WP:SOFIXIT and do it for me, if he is so concerned about possible inaccuracies from that source?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 00:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
What if any value does this forbestraveler.com article have if I wanted to write about the hotel ? Kappa 03:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Similarly can I use this thing from Economist.com city guide to source a "largest hotel claim"? a "has indoor rain forest" statement? Kappa 04:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I am looking into including more academic sources at Watchmen (found plenty already), and I came across one that I was not sure seemed reliable. Reading Space in Watchmen is by Dr. Spiros Xenos, who calls himself an independent scholar. At the end of the paper, it says, "Dr Spiros Xenos has been researching and writing on comics for over ten years. He has presented papers at international conferences and in Australia, and published articles in general and academic journals. He completed his PhD thesis on spatiality and comics in 2002. He is on the International Editorial Board of the International Journal of Comic Art." The paper is linked to by the University of Technology, Sydney. How would one rate the credibility of this source? It does not seem published anywhere, which is why I was not certain. I have other academic sources that are published, but I am looking to encompass as many as possible. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 14:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd appreciate people's thoughts on globalresearch.ca as a reliable source. Tom Harrison Talk 22:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
An editor has been attempting to add a scan of the purported production schedule for Choke (film), seen at Image:Choke day 1 front.jpg. It is "released" in the public domain, but the editor has not claimed the document as his own, only scanning it and providing it for the article. There's been a disagreement about the appropriateness of this source, especially considering the verifiability and notability of the enclosed information. Is this image appropriately licensed for inclusion, and if it is, is the image appropriate to cite for information about the film? — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 16:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Reliable source, or as worthless as it's apparent namesake (IMDB)? Wily D 20:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, there's a content dispute over whether the recent changes to this article meet WP:RS and WP:NOR's standards. It appears that veteran editors believe the inclusion does not meet the criteria, but it is pretty tricky with the usage of "self-published" news sites to back up the claims of the anons and new users. Looking for some input since this is a, seemingly, gray area. Kyaa the Catlord 21:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
IMHO neither the anonymous website www.thereligionofpeace.com nor the contentious claims on www.religion-of-peace.com satisfy WP:RS and WP:V. Can anyone confirm this? -- Raphael1 19:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The context of this request is that this source is quoted in the Religion of peace article as an example of a group that uses the words "religion of peace" in a sarcastic way. It definitely does that. The site is not quoted as a source of data for terrorist attacks (although googling any of the attacks reported usually gives gives a news report showing details of the attack). I would say quoting the site as an example of sarcastic use of "the religion of peace" is legit. Quoting the commentary from the site would fail WP:NPOV. Mike Young 05:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I wrote a stubby but properly sourced article about a book called Skinny Bitch. A new editor keeps introducing poorly written and poorly sourced additions about a Chicago radio program. The edits are not vandalism, so I am bound by the 3RR. Can someone help? I already tried politely reasoning with the editor on her talk page, with little result.-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Really not certain what should happen to this page. It purports to be summary of the mob-execution of two men convicted of assassinating a judge. The photos appear to follow the summary, but there is no sourcing, no confirmation that the summary is a true version of what the photos show. For all we know it could be a fiction attached to unrelated photos. And then there's the issue of whether this belongs on the project in the first place, even if it is true. Does not seem to fit any Speedy criteria, and really not sure if it should be AFDed. But I do know that it is improper in it's current unsourced state, and that I simply do not have the knowledge to try to fix it myself. So I hope someone else can help clean it up, or help decide to toss it at AFD. - TexasAndroid
Is this article a reliable source for the statement, "If passed, the bill would have caused abortion to be treated as murder"? For background please see http://www.newsinsider.org/faq.html -- I note they have an editorial structure, but I don't know if they have a fact-checking system in place. ← BenB4 07:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
In the section concerning his last appearence in the Dark Tower, I wrote how his fate was controversial among the fans. Its easily one of the more controversial topics in the last novel and fans are still debating it to this day. I was wondering if using topics from thedarktower.net (one of the largest Dark Tower websites on the internet) would be good enough citation to show the conflicting views between fans.-- CyberGhostface 01:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Bluboar that forums are not reliable sources of information. -- Librarylefty 03:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Although I agree in general that forums are not reliable sources, if there is a claim that something is controversial, or frequently discussed online, then links to such discussions should be acceptable sources for that contention. Corvus cornix 23:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Looking for additional opinions on an article I've become involved with. There have been a number of fictional theme parks by this name over time, and there was an AFD deleted article at this location at one point on a fan-made theme park within one of the Roler Coaster tycoon games. Recently someone created a stub on another of the fictional Wonder Worlds, that was PRODed, and then convered into a sub-stub about a real Wonder World park in San Marcos, Texas. I then found the page on the Short Pages list and, being from the area, decided I could at least create a viable stub on the existing amusement park. At first I only sourced the park with it's own web page, and the article was properly tagged for sourcing and again PRODed. I have now added several more sources, mostly from travel sites, and officially contested the PROD. I also found that the cave that is the core of the park is an official Texas Historical Site, and tracked down the offical designation page for this on the Texas government web site.
Which brings the article to where it currently stands. The park is well known around the central Texas area, and is mentioned prominently on many pages that talk about what attractions San Marcos has to offer. But these are all effectively "trivial" sources because they really are just mentions. And I'm not 100% certain that the travel sites that I did find would qualify as "reliable" sourcing, though they are definitely not "trivial". Anyway, I would like for some additional opinions on the page and it's current sourcing. Between the travel sites and the official Texas Historical Site designation page, is the article sufficiently sourced now for a stub? If so, would someone neutral please judge if the sourcing tag still belong. Or, on the other extreeme, do I still have more work to make this a viable stub? - TexasAndroid 15:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Ive (unfortunately) gotten myself neck-deep into a longstanding argument on the Man vs. Wild Talk Page, in which one user in particular has attempted to put forth a criticism section that states that elements of the show are staged using sources that myself and a few others feel is flimsy at best. However, as the debate has begun to turn nasty, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if it is agreed to be reliable here.
The following are sources which have been used for criticism sections, all of which was removed.
1. [32] This picture, which user Rei has put forth that it appears that the raft was cut rather than fireburned, as the episode apparently stated. The problem I have with this is that his analysis is not backed up by any source other than photograph itself, which appears to me to be a violation of WP:OR, while another user, grahamdubya, has suggested that the image itself isnt strong enough evidence regardless.
2. [33] A youtube video of an episode where the unregistered user who used it as a source by stating that at one point in the video, a harness is visible. Again, no secondary source corroborating this claim, only the primary source from which the claim is based.
Analysis of videos posted on youtube with no secondary claim to introduce or corroborate that analysis was common on the original criticism section. For example this video, [34], from 4:44 onward, was used as a reference for a claim that because the cameraman followed the host, Bear Grylls, as he jumped off of a crevasse, the height of the crevasse wasnt as high as he claimed.
The rest of the evidence used for the criticism section can be seen in context here: [35]
3. Forum posts had been frequently implemented to present theories viewers had questioning the narrative presented in the show, including this forum post [36] questioning the opening sequence of the pilot episode.
4. The original criticism section also included 2 google searches elsewhere [37] [38] in order to show how there is widespread viewer criticism of the shows content.
If these are deemed to be acceptable sources, then I will reinstate it myself, but I am highly doubtful that it is.-- Tao of tyler 07:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
An RFC has been opened regarding the provenance of material that was originally published by Baker's defense. Talk:Nick Baker (prisoner in Japan)#Request for comments: Use of translated court documents as a source I appreciate comments from uninvolved editors. -- Sparkzilla talk! 16:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
if someone knows about this player please send us more informations about him your help is appreciated
I've been asked to repost this here from 'Reliable Sources'.
'I've been slightly worried, I think needlessly, but I am not expert on these rules, about possible objections to my using Michael Neumann as a source for a remark on Raul Hilberg as a life-long Republican voter. He wrote an 'In Memorian' article in Counterpunch recently. Michael Neumann is, for some (not myself) a controversial figure: Counterpunch is attacked as an, intrinsically, 'unreliable source', a view I find questionable (it depends on who wrote the article: they host people there who have long public records as senior administration officials and tenured academics).
Michael Neumann happens to be the son of Franz Neumann, who was Raul Hilberg's Phd supervisor, and oversaw the drafting of that historical masterpiece. There's a family connection, in short. If someone out there thinks this questionable, I'd appreciate a note. Nishidani 14:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)' Nishidani 08:58, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Whose source(s) is more reliable? What do the sources say? Topic experts would be nice. Moreschi Talk 21:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
this article has got lots of expert attention, but, by its nature as fringe scholarship, also lots of crank attention. The quotes of the JIES debate really say it all. If the article creates the impression that "neither side is really a fringe", it still needs further de-crankification. dab () 09:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
A debate is currently ongoing [40] at Francis Crick over the reliability of certain sources being used to verify some claims regarding Crick's alleged involvement with drugs, which a regular contributor to the page User:JWSchmidt feels are "unreliable sources". I'm not too sure, and to be honest I haven't found a conclusive answer in WP:RS. Can someone look in and give an opinion on the sources concerned? They are:
I'd be grateful for opinions, particularly on the newspaper sources. Badgerpatrol 17:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
DGG ( talk) 23:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The two disputed citations are for:
Neither of these two sources (above) are reliable sources as used by User:Badgerpatrol and they certainly do not provide the basis for an entire section in the Francis Crick article. User:Badgerpatrol's persistent attempts to keep citing these unreliable sources while refusing to cite the published biographies of Crick is an unproductive waste of time. -- JWSchmidt 17:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
1) Lay off the personal attacks. if you can't be civil, say nothing. 2) For casual readers of this debate, it's important to clarify that nobody disputes that Crick was an LSD user. All sources agree on this, and I believe John accepts this also. 3) The issue therefore seems to be, is it reasonable to state that Crick's drug use had any influence on his work? Here the evidence is more equivocal. I've invited John to alter the wording of the relevant material to a form that he finds acceptable. He has refused to do so. 4) Until now, the issue of relevance has been subordinated to John's bizarre belief that newspapers are somehow inherently unreliable (as stated above, there are now at least three known sources for Crick's drug use, including two national newspapers and a published biography of Crick by Matt Ridley, as well as numerous contextual sources establishing the involvement of the Crick's with figures in the drug scene. The wording of all these sources is crystal clear and unambiguous). I am happy to work with others (as stated ad nauseum) to pare down this material (and the article generally, which is overlong) to an acceptable length and to give this issue no more than the space it deserves in the context of what it is a biography of Crick's life. Not just his work. 5) Note that it was not me who originally added the material pertaining to Crick's involvement with drugs to the article. I have already worked to cut this material in half, have expressed repeatedly my opinion that it should not constitute a separate section, have added new references and rewritten the material to reflect the nature of the sources and the importance of the topic, have engaged in a civil (from my side) discussion on talk re the whole subject, and I have invited John on numerous occasions to work with me to continue this work and add the reference material that he has to hand and I do not. Without meaning to get personal, diatribes like the one above are the thanks I have received. 6) I will work to pare down the material and integrate it into the main text, per what seems to be the emerging consensus amongst the editors that have contributed so far to this discussion on Talk:Francis Crick and in this thread. If you want to continue this discussion with me John, keep a civil tongue in your head, otherwise say nothing at all. I have treated you with courtesy and respect at all times - I expect the same in reciprocation. If you can't manage that, leave. I will continue to work on Francis Crick in accordance with Wikipedia policy. Do not expect a response from me to personal attacks, incivility and patronising diatribes. Badgerpatrol 21:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be a hoax until there are no real sources. Anyone has an idea for getting facts? Greetings, Conny 19:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC).
Okay, I'm thinking of two articles in question with this query, but the principle applies to other articles. There are a number of relatively small martial arts schools with articles on Wikipedia. They have been discussed in multiple independent sources so notability is obvious. Shaolin-Do just survived an AfD with a pretty heavy consensus on the grounds that notability was shown by a number of newspaper articles in major newspapers discussing or mentioning that art.
However, the amount of information in those articles about these arts is usually only enough for a stub. From these newspaper articles you could gather what type of martial art it is (Kung Fu/Karate/Jujitsu/Tae Kwon Do ect), who runs the school, and typically where they teach and maybe a few short snippets of history or philosophy of that school. To get anything more than a stub (or at absolute most, a start-class article) you'd need more sources than that.
However, many of these schools have books about them, which include more elaborate histories, discussions of philosophy and training techniques, and a lot of information that would be useful for creating an encyclopedia article. These books are published by independent, reputable publishing firms, although they are written by heads or instructors of those schools. There has been some dispute over whether these are considered primary sources or secondary sources, and if they are considered reliable sources. They have been written by people very closely affiliated with the subject, but they have been published by an outside reputable publishing house and have presumably thus been through an independent editorial review. It could be seen as a secondary source, since it's not self published and it's been reviewed and approved by a mainstream publishing house which decided to take the financial and reputation risk on publishing it. It is argued by some editors that it is a primary source since it's written by a source very close to the subject.
I was curious what other editors thought about this issue, which would it be considered? -- Wingsandsword 23:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this site reliable? This is in reference to its use as a reference in Optimo for a statement that an anonymous editor has just removed for the third time. It seems like some of their content is user-submitted and I kind of doubt they're held to the same editorial standard as the rest of the bbc, although the article in question was at least written by a freelance journalist.-- P4k 06:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
A (terribly polite) dispute at Talk:Lauder on the reliability of older historical works when these do not correspond with more recent interpretations. Any input much appreciated. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
My argument here has been consistant. We are indebted to pre-twentieth century scholars for their indefatigable locating and deciphering of ancient manuscipts, documents, and charters. Without their industry today's generation would have been in difficulties. Most if not all of these industrious people were scholars, some, Like Sir William Fraser, of very high regard. Who is suddenly to say that late twentieth century scholars are superior (unless they have some sort of X-Ray vision with documents)? One of the big problems we are faced with is the interpretation of the ancient writings or, indeed, events. It is common for several handwriting experts to disagree. Moreover, as Joseph Bain (another great Victorian scholar) points out, what of the huge number of documents which we no loger have.
In the case of Lauder/Lauderdale we appear to have no extant charters before de Morville. This is much the same throughout Scotland. It does not mean that that was where history commenced. When we get back to the pre-1200s we enter a very grey area as far as verifiability is concerned throughout Great Britain and not just in Scotland. If I find twenty books written between, say, 1700 and 1920, all citing similar things albeit in slightly different formats, and all those books citing even older documentations, should I say all these scholars were crétins just because they reached similar conclusions or they were not born in the 20th century or held a different conception of Scottish history to a variety of sceptics or purists of today?
We on Wikipedia strive to construct articles which will be informative and to the best of our ability have a semblance of truth. We don't come here to construct fantasy. If I were writing about Paris and Helen would you delete the article? Because, lets face it, how many accurate sources are there for the existance of all the Greek myths that we still love and even make films about? If detractors of articles, critics of what has been presented, scoff and say 'what a story', fine. But if it is adequately sourced should they be wrecking or deleting the article just because of their own personal opinions? I say, comment if you must, add consturctive comment with sources if you can. David Lauder 19:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Houston Freeways is a comprehensive self-published book about the freeway system of Houston, Texas. I know that self-published sources are generally bad, but this seems to be a rare exception. It's well-cited (which, of course, means that I could go to those sources, but I don't have access to them), and has been listed alongside a number of non-self-published books on the FHWA's site. Is it reasonable to use this book as a factual reference? -- NE2 23:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
What about his other works, like TexasFreeway.com? -- NE2 07:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
A single-purpose anon IP user wants to know if Wikipedia can cite as definitive FACT the following sentence from the Encyclopedia of Japan. [51]. The only question I have with this quote is the issue of weasel words like “many” popping up to implicitly endorse some kind of faulty logic, so I asked if the user knew who the author was. His reply wasn’t too helpful, [52] so I looked up the source myself.
The article is entitled “foreigners in Japan” by William Wetherall (Volume 2, 1st ed., 1983, p. 314). It doesn’t cite any sources, and the only thing that I could find that Wetherall apparently published related to the subject is a report on foreigners in Japan for a partisan think tank entitled “Minority Rights Group" (Report No. 3, new 1983 edition) That source gives Wetherall’s bio. It reads: “William Wetherall is a graduate student in Asian Studies at the University of California Berkeley. His Japanese research covered popular culture, modern literature, contemporary cinema, and minority discrimination.”
Any ideas on what to do with this source:
1. Cite it completely as fact? 2. Cite it as Wetherall’s opinion….something like “Wetherall writes….” 3. Cite it in part with ellipses that remove words like “many”? 4. Don’t use the source at all? 5. Keep looking for another source that says “some” instead of “many”?
Experienced editors haven't expressed an opinion on the gaijin talk page yet, and I suspect some of the single-purpose users are getting restless. Comments from experienced editors here would be most helpful. In good faith, J Readings 10:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
relationships, even though, on a psychological plain, tensions exist.
Apologies for bringing this to the administrators noticeboard, I'm sure there is a better place for this (and if so please point me in the right direction). How does one judge reliable sources? I have found a site which appears on 2522 different Wikipedia pages, called www.onlineworldofwrestling.com [54] and am finding that a large number of articles are relying on this site as not just their primary source of information, but the sole source of information. Considering that anyone can pay the $25.00 to submit a profile to this site, and then in turn have it used to source a Wikipedia article, I have my doubts as to its reliability. Is this cause for concern, or no big deal? Burntsauce 21:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
(the above has been copied to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard at the suggestion of WilyD.)
(reindent) If this is consensually deemed as an unreliable source, what is to be done about the hundreds, neigh, thousands of articles in Category:American professional wrestlers and similar categories? Burntsauce 22:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Untrue, someone familiar with the area of professional wrestling I can confirm everything that I've seen at this site has been researched pretty carefully and reported accurately. I've also spoken to the creator of the site and he seems reliable enough for a source here. Burntsauce, you're just looking for reasons to falsely use WP:BLP and WP:V on the Pro Wrestling WikiProject, which you have been known to do. — Moe ε 22:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I concur with Moe. The Hyb rid 23:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Right, here's evidence it's a reliable source, I've picked a line from The Undertakers article - but finally defeated Kennedy in a Last Ride match at Armageddon 2006[128], which directs to this, which quote: LAST RIDE MATCH: The Undertaker defeated Mr. Ken Kennedy.. The Undertaker tombstoned Mr. Kennedy on top of the hurse and then put the bloody Kennedy inside of the hurse.. . Now, J.smith, please tell me why OWW isn't reliable having just provided you with a perfectly good example of why it is reliable. EDIT: By the way, Burntsauce has gone AWOL since this started... Davnel03 18:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to say that I do not feel that this site is a very reliable source. It has lots of rumors, is far from comprehensive, and has lots of other errors/mistakes. While it is not directly user-generated, much of the info comes from contributors who e-mail them, and a lot of it is not even formatted or checked for spelling. It is a decent fansite, but to use it as a source is asking for trouble. In fact, there is some strange notion that every match by a wrestler needs to be cited, which is probably just a bit over the top, and we should use published sources to document notable facts, not predetermined wrestling matches. Biggspowd 17:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate editors' thoughts on the third-party reliability of The Racial Slur Database, Roadjunky.com and two personal homepages that copy verbatim an essay entitled "Japanyes;THE THIRD EDITION" of publicly unverifiable origin [57] [58]. All four citations are used to justify the following contentious and exceptional clause in the gaijin article: "...[gaijin] is considered a racial slur by many to whom the word is applied." J Readings 10:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)