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This is a BBC-sponsored endeavour which is self-contributed articles; problem is that although some of it is peer-reviewed (although we have no guarantees as to the quality of the reviewers), some of it is not. Arising from an editor seeking to use it as a source, a search shows we have about 900 references to it, some of which will be about h2g2, but some using it as a reliable source. I'm wondering if this has been looked at before, since it seems largely comparable with IMDb; your input would be welcome. If there is a reliable way of sorting the good from the poor, other sources should be sought if necessary. Cheers. -- Rodhull andemu 23:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I am using a plaque that I have taken a photo of and uploaded to the commons as a source for an article. I have submitted this article for GA review and the reviewer says such a source is unreliable. I disagree, why is a plaque less reliable than any other published source, especially since it is at the site itself. The plaque is not making an outstanding claims, rather it is simply describing the construction date of the hall and its contents. What is everyone else's opinion? Zeus1234 ( talk) 23:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
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If I take a video of someone famous being interviewed, i.e. http://www.screenwritingexpo.com, can I cite it later as a primary source? – thedemonhog talk • edits 06:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Here's a blog post with a couple of links about Elsevier’s Chaos, Solitons, and Fractals. Also posted at the Fringe theories Noticeboard. Anybody familiar with these issues? Tom Harrison Talk 12:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
As it's just been brought up, it would be nice to know if it really qualifies as a reliable source. Lots of links [1] eg Camp Eggers. I don't see how it can be seen as a RS if the article on it is correct. The BBC calls it a 'Chechen rebel website'. [2] dougweller ( talk) 17:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate an opinion here whether commentaries provided by tour guides/tour guest lecturers are a reliable source. The argument for is that these people are often experts on the subject; the argument against is that no record of the commentary exists and the content is therefore unverifiable. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 04:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I've got a situation here and I'm not quite sure how to handle this guy. Talk:Konglish#Konglish_References. He seems have immediately gone to a position of WP:IDHT and basically seems to be flat-out refusing to listen to the fact that what he wants violates numerous policies. He even admits early in the discussion that the sources don't pass WP:V, but thinks he can create a local consensus to ignore that, even though I've pointed out WP:CONSENSUS doesn't permit that. Since this involves WP:RS in a way, perhaps if one or two people could go there and further explain it, it might become more clear. The references basically consist of random blogs and (I kid you not) things like images..without text.. for example the citation for the korean word for "couple shirt" (meaning a couple wearing a similar shirt/outfit) was just a picture of two people wearing the same shirt..no text, no evidence of the word, spelling, meaning, etc.-- Crossmr ( talk) 16:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
The article appears to be based on a Hoover's Profile and the Gale Group's International Directory of Company Histories. Both those seem to be reliable sources, but how about the Answers.com article? Of course it would be better if I could go directly to the original sources, but they appear to be quite expensive. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 20:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
http://ifcomp.org/ is the web site for the Interactive Fiction Competition. It is a relatively small competition, but has been recognized by sites including The Wall Street Journal, Hackszine published by O'Reilly Media, Destructoid published by ModernMethod, Slashdot ( article) published by SourceForge, Inc., Joystiq ( article) published by Weblogs, Inc., mediabistro published by Jupitermedia, GameSetWatch published by Think Services, and the book the book Twisty Little Passages. As such I think it's a notable enough to include in articles about interactive fiction, limited to claims that the competition itself is reliable on: rules, who competed, and final results. For example, in the article Floatpoint, one might claim:
The competition is third-party to the subject of the article, but first-party to the specific claims. While first-party, they are the most authoritative source for the information; all any third-party source could do is reprint the claims. This would be like sourcing claims about a film winning an Oscar to http://oscar.com/oscarnight/winners/index . As such, I think the citations would be reliable and appropriate. Obviously there is disagreement, or I wouldn't be inquiring. (If the previous link is a bit overwhelming, but you want to check out the discussion, you might start here. where a fourth editor joined the discussion.) So, is IFComp.org a reliable source for claims about the competitions rules, competitors, and final results? — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Can someone please help us assess the reliability of some sources at Talk:Creation_according_to_Genesis#Tjbergsma.27s_edits. please? At the moment it's 1 vs. 1 so we're not really getting anywhere. Cheers, Ben ( talk) 05:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
An article entitled "Aspartame Adverse Reaction Reports Down in 1994 From 1985 Peak". from Food Chemical News, an industry trade publication published by Informa, has some information related to reported adverse effects of aspartame. User:Eldereft removed it, questioning its reliability. I reverted his removal, and he reverted me back. I started a thread about it, and he never commented. I've now verified the source myself and added it back (not logged in). [17] User:Verbal reverted me, and has also neglected to comment. Now User:ScienceApologist states that "the article in question is not about "Aspartame Controversy". The information added:
In 1995, FDA Epidemiology Branch Chief Thomas Wilcox reported that aspartame complaints represented 75% of all reports of adverse reactions to substances in the food supply from 1981 to 1995. He stated that "there is still concern" about the substance and that "some people have an intolerance [to aspartame]".
II | ( t - c) 08:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Food Chemical News appears to be a reliable source in the ordinary sense. The statement sent up redflags for me, and I erroneously concluded that it is a partisan source analogous to Natural News. I am refocusing my wikitime towards more normal science articles to save on headaches and drama - sorry for drifting in and out of that article as I did. I render no opinion regarding whether the source is being used properly or, well, anything else about the history of public perceptions of aspartame. - Eldereft ( cont.) 03:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
An online source titled Tobacco Timeline is added after the sentence "Anti- tobacco movements grew in many nations from the beginning of the 20th century" in the first paragraph of the article Anti-tobacco movement in Nazi Germany. This fact is already supported by this scholarly reference written by Richard Doll. The Tobacco.org source is written by a person named Gene Borio. I google searched to know more about Borio. What I found is that Gene Borio is a blogger, [18] an anti-tobacco activist [19] and the webmaster [20] of Tobacco.org. Borio runs a daily blog Tobacco On Trial. The site Tobacco.org is described as "the top international website for tobacco control news" in a blog [21]. The site Tobacco.org was also featured in the BMJ [22]. Here is an image of Gene Borio. I found a comment on Gene Borio in the Internet: " Ace anti-tobacco reporter Gene Borio, operating from a smoke-free gopher hole deep in New York City, combed through hundreds of thousands of tobacco industry documents, finally uncovering, on one of the tobacco papers web sites, a shocking account of tobacco company perfidy the like of which has never before been seen" [23]. Another comment on Borio: "Gene Borio has compiled an impressiveamount of information regarding tobacco marketing strategies (some of this will shock you.), health and prevention information, as well as updates on many legal actions involving cigarette manufacturers". [24] Historian Muhammad Tariq Ghazi labels Gene Borio as a "tobacco historian" [25]. New York Times describes Gene Borio as an "Internet writer" [26]. The impression I got from the google search is that Gene Borio has achieved somewhat Internet celebrity like status among the anti-smoking community in the Internet. If search for Gene Borio + tobacco, google news returns 16 ghits.
Now my question is that, although Gene Borio is an anti-tobacco activist, Internet writer and blogger, I cannot find his educational qualification. A google search for Tobacco.org returns 121,000 ghits, google search in domain edu returns 516 ghits, google news returns 53 ghits. But despite such coverage in the Internet, the problem here is that the sole contributor to this website is Gene Borio who's academic credential is unknown. Borio is owner, developer and writer of this site. So should I use Tobacco.org as a reliable source in a featured article? Please advise. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 11:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. I'd appreciate a third opinion on the current active discussion at Talk:List of eponymous laws if someone has a moment. Thanks. — Hex (❝?!❞) 21:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:No original research#Regarding maps being "primary sources" according to this policy -- Rschen7754 ( T C) 06:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this edit. Can anyone comment on odishatoday.com? Is it a reliable source? -- Googlean Results 10:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Relata refero, can you reveal who is the MP related to dailypioneer? Apparently an IP editor added lots of stuff , all referenced to pioneer . I am suspecting it is another POV pushing -- Tinu Cherian - 09:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In the Alexander Litvinenko article, I have used a source from the Conflict Studies Research Centre of the Defence Academy of the United Kingdom to provide various information into the article. The report is published by the CSRC, and the author of the piece I am quoting is named Henry Plater-Zyberk, a senior lecturer and analyst of the CSRC. He is well regarded as a specialist in this area, and as a scholar has published and been cited, both in scholarly works and books. There is no doubt that both the CSRC and the author are reliable sources by the letter of WP:RS. An editor is now removing sourced information from the article, because Plater-Zyberk in his work is critical of Litvinenko and because all CSRC publications carry the disclaimer:
The views expressed in this paper are entirely and solely those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect official thinking and policy either of Her Majesty’s Government or of the Ministry of Defence.
It is the opinion of the editor that this is an editorial due to the existence of this disclaimer.
Note in the information introduced into the article that I have not placed information stating that this is the view of the British government, nor of the Ministry of Defence. Such disclaimers are standard when experts in their field are employed by a government and they write on subjects in their field of expertise.
The report in question can be found here.
Can others please confirm or deny that these are reliable sources. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 14:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Let me explain it to you Russavia, you're now using the opinion of an author because it matches your opinion of Litvinenko whom you think was a nutcase as you admitted yourself. However if that's how wikipedia works it could also work against you. For example in another article on the same site from the Conflict Studies Research Centre of the Defence Academy of the United Kingdom an author speaks about Chechen genocide commited by Russia [30] I don't think you would agree if I start presenting that as fact now under the disguise of a reliable source now right? No, because these are merely opinions from an author, not necessarily facts. Grey Fox ( talk) 15:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Let's look at what was written:
A report by the Conflict Studies Research Centre of the Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, in which the author states that Litvinenko was a "one-man disinformation bureau", suggests the claim was made with "no evidence to support" it, and further stated that this claim, and Litvinenko's claim that the FSB was behind the Beslan school hostage crisis, was accepted without challenge by the British media.
Just where is the statement of fact here? It is obvious it is his opinion. It could do with a little copy-edit, but to remove it without an actual attempt to reword it yourself, and all other sourced claims to this, on the basis of flimsy excuses that I have seen both here and on the talk page, is not quite excusable. As to the Armenian shooting, you are still going to claim that it was the authors opinion that Litvinenko claimed it was ostensibly to derail the Nagorno-Karabakh peace agreement? Even when presented with this source which states:
"Pursuing certain political aims, the Russian special services often turn to subversive activity. Many know in highest echelons of Russia's special services that the shooting of the Armenian parliament in 1999 was organized by RMR. This sabotage enabled Russia's political elite to prevent signing of the agreement on Karabakh settlement. If I am not mistaken, it was said that president Aliyev and Kocharian were to sign a memorandum at the Istanbul summit of OSCE. The peaceful process was developing aloof from Russia's control and that made Russian special services to carry out the special mission in the Armenian parliament", Litvinenko told Real Azerbaijan online newspaper.
Can you now see that your and Biophys' "editorial" line just doesn't cut it. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 18:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Kaveh Farrokh has been blocked for 6 weeks over a dispute about the lead, which calls someone with a PhD thesis on " The relationships among cognitive processes, language experience and errors in Farsi speaking ESL adults.", who works as a college counsellor but has published two books on history, "an expert in the field of Iranian history and linguistics" on the basis of this article [31] -- since it is protected on that version, those of us who think you need a better source to call someone an expert, and indeed that the word expert shouldn't even be used in the lead (see the talk page for numerous examples of undoubted experts whose articles have neutral leads) may as well give up insisting on reliable sources (that is, if we are right of course) as those who are happy to use a journalist to determine if someone is an expert, and happy to use the word expert in the lead, have no incentive to resolve the dispute and the article will stay locked. This seems a ridiculous state of affairs to me, but then I have a POV on the RS issue here. dougweller ( talk) 18:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know if this web site here is acceptable to be used as a reliable source on a contentious article? This is the web site page being cited here, and this is were it is being used as a reference in the article here reference no. 2. Thanks very much, -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Thats sound Blueboar thanks for that, -- Domer48 'fenian' 15:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
There's an AFD on it, but if anyone wants to they can see if the sources establish notability and are reliable. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sparkling Generation Valkyrie Yuuki (2nd nomination) WhisperToMe ( talk) 17:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Now the silliness in JtP has reached the point where the New York Times is "rejected" as a source for calling Joe tha Plumber a plumber. "I've reread it too. Everything in the NY Times citation that Collect refers to seems to be based on Joe's testimony. We know that just because the NY Times regurgitates Joe's presentation of himself isn't enough for a RS. That's tantamount to self-promotion. Also, more neutral sources don't depend on Joe's testimony. Certainly no one expects Joe to come out and independently and impartially proclaim that he has been working on an apprenticeship since 2003 and has no independent plumbing license. Only an independent, neutral source is likely to do so. Collect, it seems we have to reject the citation on that basis, even though it is definitely from the honorable NY Times. VictorC (talk) 04:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC) " " OK. Well in case anyone's paying attention, let's reject Collect's citation from the NY Times. I have three possible reasons for this: 1) There are more recent citations; 2) The reason we are using the citation is based on Joe's statements - not an impartial source - and; 3) The statements are among the quotes from Joe that he is "getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000 to $280,000 a year,” that he "told Mr. Obama he has been a plumber for 15 years," the first of which has been debunked as not too reliable, the second of which Collect is basing his RS on. So, I propose that this source is no longer reliable: 1) it's outdated; 2) it's not based on an impartial source; 3) the source has been shown to have dubious reliability. If we can agree to drop this specific NY Times citation, let's agree on using a different source. Let's find one that's more up to date; uses a more impartial source (than the individual himself); and shows itself to be less dubious. VictorC (talk) 05:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)"
This is a tad inane since these folks rejected the opinions in WP:BLP/N that Joe the Plumber is a plmber as far as "occupation" is concerned -- so now they have to reject the NYT mainly because it does not agree with what the few people want it to say. Now the issue is this -- is not liking what a RS says a valid reason for "rejecting" it? Collect ( talk) 05:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Since this is the noticeboard for reliable source issues, we're not going to decide here if Joe is a plumber or not. We already know that the New York Times a reliable source in general, so the question for this forum as far as I can tell is: is there some reason the New York Times should be disqualified from use as a source in this particular situation? If a fact reported in the New York Times turns out to be incorrect, that does not make the source unreliable, but it does indicate the source was incorrect on that point, ie, they made a mistake. But unless the mistake is commented upon by another reliable source, it's original research to compare the fact with other facts and make a determination in Wikipedia about which source was correct.
Therefore, the best approach may be to attribute the statement to the source and clearly identify what was actually stated. In other words, not "Joe is a plumber" and then a New York Times footnote, instead: "According to the New York Times, Joe described himself as a plumber" (or something like that; I'm not addressing the details of the use, only the source question). If the NY Times article does not have solid footing for determining Joe's occupation, maybe there are other sources that would be better to use for that. On the other hand, the way it's presented in the NY Times might still have use for the Wikipedia article - that is an editorial decision, not a WP:RS decision. As far as declaring the New York Times to be unreliable as a source in factual reporting of current events, that does not seem like an appropriate option.-- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 20:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
As I have already stated at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Occupation_of_Joe_the_Plumber, he mwwts the Wikipedia definition of a Plumber. The sources, including the one in question from The New York Times, describe him as a plumber. It's still unclear if the issue is that he does not have a license, but that still does not affect the nature of his profession. Alansohn ( talk) 01:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Is the Freeport Long Island History blog a reliable source? I know the topic reasonably well (it's where I grew up) and everything there looks well researched. The blogger identifies herself as "Regina, a librarian at the Freeport Memorial Library" and the library prominently links to the blog and says that it is "a joint project between the Freeport Library and the Freeport Historical Society." Sounds OK to me, but I know there is a strong presumption against blogs. - Jmabel | Talk 08:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
An editor has claimed that an article from the National Post is not a reliable source because the NP is a tabloid in the derogatory sense. To my eyes, the NP is a newspaper that occasionally takes strong, and sometimes controversial positions, but no more so than Fox News, or the NY Times. Any guidance would be appreciate. Mattnad ( talk) 15:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
(Cross-posted to the BLP noticeboard.) Dan Willis (author) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - There is an ongoing dispute over the consideration and classification of some sources. Specifically, there is disagreement over whether some sources are primary, self-published and/or independent of the subject. This has lead to further disagreement regarding whether or not notability has been established and BLP standards are being met. Outside opinions are needed to help resolve the dispute. Additional comments at Talk:Dan Willis (author)#RfC: Notability would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Vassyana ( talk) 19:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Question about public court records, which are not available to the general public online (but can be viewed by the general public at the courthouse).
1 - are they deemed verifiable, or is verifiability of a source dependent on whether there is a hyperlink leading to it?
2 - are they deemed original research? And if so, how then how exactly do they become more worthy of citation by virtue of a third-party (i.e. a newspaper) reporting on them?
3 - if the answer depends on the purpose/content of the citation, where is the line drawn? (i.e. "Joe Blow was convicted of theft and sentenced to two years in prison" or "Jane Blow is scheduled to appear for sentencing on May 1st" or "Joe Blow sued Jane Blowhard for $100,000 for negligence").
4 - if they are permissible, what would be the appropriate citation format (particularly where the source cannot be hyperlinked)?
-- Lawduck ( talk) 04:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
( talk) 21:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Is the Daily Mail a reliable source or a tabloid.It was a broadsheet paper now being published in tabloid format.One article which is being used is this [34].Can you please clarify on this. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 12:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In the past five years there has been almost 15 magnificiant discoveries dugged up in south India. multiple iron age urn burials in 2005 to magnum opus script inscription lately - but none of this issues made to be published as a book or official jurnouls. All of this have dated Tamil language usage to latest 3rd century BC and earliest to be from 6th to 7 th century BC. Based on thier inscriptions. The only available resources on these are not from journals or books or thesis. but news of reportbased on carbon 14 reports on newspapers and official online such as BBC and so.
I would like to know if this web site [39] - by historian, BBC documentary broadcaaster and prinston teacher; michael woods - is reliable
and this [40]
and this [41]
and this [42]
and this [43] to be used as references on the article about first written Tamil at [44] -- Master YODA ( talk) 23:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
This New York Post article is used to support the statement "...Hicks claims she was "swindled" out of her fair share of the film's profits..." about the Hicks-Byrne controversy in the Esther Hicks biography. There is an ongoing discussion about this on: Talk:Esther Hicks#Hicks claims she did not receive her fair share of the film's profits. I would very much appreciate input on whether this is a reliable source in the present context. -- Crowsnest ( talk) 13:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Are these considered a reliable source regarding description of production issues, etc.? — Mattisse ( Talk) 02:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This must have come up before but I don't see it in the history - where do we stand on the use of indymedia as a reliable source? It seems to be used a lot in fringe political articles. -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 16:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a dispute if private genealogy website can be used as a source for articles on Polish-Ukrainian conflict during WWII. All request to provide evidence per WP:BURDEN about reliability of website have been ignored so far, in favour of blind revert warring [45], [46] so third opinion of community is required. Wiki policy is quite clear Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Private, self-published genealogy website, publicising hoaxes (e.g. picture used to illustrate massacres of Poles [47] is well known hoax, having nothing to do with WWII) clearly is not a quality source for sensitive topic like this one. M0RD00R ( talk) 21:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Is Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski a reliable source in history articles? List of WP articles that cite him: [48]. He is not a historian by training; the advantage of being an amateur is the lack of professional accountability. Sample statements from his website: "The author, Jeff Sarlet is so far the only journalist who succeeded in documenting the activities of the hidden elite, headquartered in Arlington, on the outskirts of Washington DC, “The Family,” at the core of American fundamentalist Protestant power, was originally created along the lines of European fascism in 1935 by Abraham Vereide, who organized the wealthy internationalist elite...They have had an enormous impact on the beliefs of Americans in the 20th century and on U.S. imperialist policy in the 21st century, through their secret machinations which have been unsuspected by most Americans." [49]. Yikes. Novickas ( talk) 17:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Ongoing edit war at Magee Secondary School about who the current school administration is.
Discussion from a few days ago can be found at the bottom of this page and here. More recent discussion is here. -- Onorem ♠ Dil 13:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
<--(unindent) Content dispute != vandalism, and please do not ever say that again, Double Blue. In fact, I see very little discussion of this matter on the talk page of the article. Why is it happening here instead of there? Go back to the TALK page, outline the different references available, and as a group determine which of those sites provides the best information. If none of them appear to be reliable, perhaps the best solution is *not to include unverifiable information in the first place*. It is not the end of the world to have a blank in an infobox, and would be preferable to having incorrect or out-of-date information. Risker ( talk) 14:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Cristol, A. Jay (2002). The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship. Dulles, Virginia: Brassey's. ISBN 1-57488-414-X.
His website [53]
Relevant AN/I thread here: here
USS Liberty Incident has been a long term problem article as it tends to attack Single Purpose Accounts with a POV agenda. Author A. Jay Cristol has written a book that purports to debunk many of the conspiracy theories. Editors on talk page have made a series of criticisms, though none back up by secondary sources, claiming the book is unreliable and the author has manipulated the evidence. Secondary sources I've found to date would indicate that, conspiracy theory websites aside, the book is well regarded as an authorative independent investigation. Most recently when I asked for secondary sources to back up what the editors claim I received this response:
I found them and I'm not even computor literate. You can find them much faster than I could. Go for it.
Requesting independent third party judgment on the credibility of this source as per WP:RS. Justin talk 14:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Misleading request (this comment added by an involved editor) - nobody has set out to claim that Cristol's book is not an RS - the problem under discussion is the UNDUE we've giving it over better regarded sources/books.
Cristol's "The Liberty Incident" 2002 gets 1 cite (and his 1999 dissertation gets two) according to Google Scholar - by comparison, Ennes's 1979 "Assault on the Liberty" gets 5 citations. Other books with chapters on the incident are much, much better again - "Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-secret National Security Agency" - J Bamford - 2001 - Doubleday - Cited by 47.
And yet, the treatment we give Cristol, both as to his person and his book, is far better than what we give Ennes and Bamford. There are lots of other serious problems at this article (eg treatment of possible motives for Israel attacking is extraordinarily POV) which I could go into, but this request is a complete mis-statement of them. There is, however, another source being used that is non-RS, at one point in the article, Cristol's views even get a second bite of the cherry by re-statement in an opinion piece from the ADL. PR talk 16:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
The USS Liberty: Dissenting History Vs. Official History By John E Borne Published by Reconsideration Press, 1996
The USS Liberty: Dissenting History Vs. Official History By John E. Borne Published by New York University, Graduate School of Arts and Science, 1993
Two different versions of the same source. I'm finding it difficult to find any information about Reconsideration Press. I'm presuming the second reference is the publication of a doctoral thesis. 16:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Are those two reliable in matters of Egyptology? wp:rs says, "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." While Harpur was a New Testament professor, neither are/were trained Egyptologists, and I think the ideas of the self-taught Massey in particular is on the fringe as far as ancient Egyptian and comparative religion goes. As far as mainstream acceptance goes, Christian scholar W. Ward Gasque noted, "Professor Kenneth A. Kitchen of the University of Liverpool pointed out that not one of these men is mentioned in M. L. Bierbrier’s Who Was Who in Egyptology (3rd ed, 1995), nor is any of their works listed in Ida B. Pratt’s very extensive bibliography on Ancient Egypt (1925/1942)." http://hnn.us/articles/6641.html . Also Massey's work is long out of date; he missed all the breakthroughs in the field of the past century. As far as Harpur's fringe goes: 'First, he insists, there was "the greatest cover-up of all time" at the beginning of the fourth century; and thousands of Christian scholars are now participants in this on-going cover-up.' Ibid.
For more information here is Tom Harpurs biography, and Massey's books Madridrealy ( talk) 16:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can see, [www.imdb.com] IMDB is editable by any user and does not cite the sources editors use when coming up with a plot synopsis. Where a work needs interpretation, does IMDB cut it as a reliable source of information? Alastairward ( talk) 21:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
IMDB is not self-published, and though editable by "any user", it does in fact (at least as of yesterday) require confirmations and sources for submitted informations, and it routinely rejects user submissions that are not themselves accomanied by sources... though IMDB does not share those sources as Wiki requires for its own articles. Different entities, different rules. Keep in mind though, that IMDB's usefulness as a source is in continued contention (see CIMDB and ( recent discussions)... and you will find editors wishing it banned outright. That being said, and the arguments about its usefulness notwithstanding, it is still a terrific tool to guide you to other locations for finding the informations you wish. If you find a plot synopsis on IMDB, it is extremely likely that you will find a better and more complete one elsewhere, as that better one was likely used as a source for whatever is on IMDB. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
The Alternative media claims that the mainstream media is in error, even slanted towards some agenda. Wikipedia claims that Alternative media is unreliable. I'm here for clarification only. Powerzilla ( talk) 15:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
First, let me just say that the artists listed on List of best-selling music artists need to be supported by very reliable sources which in their turn must contain sales-figures within. This source which is for Backstreet Boys was recently added to the page to support 200 million records sold by the band. Even though, the source may seem reliable, the sales figure of that kind for Backstreet Boys is clearly overinflated. Therefore, I first wanted to ask for the opinion of people here who might be familiar with PGCitizen.ca, because I don't want to start a controversy over tossing it out. Also, let me point out that most sales-figures for Backstreet Boys published by reliable sources do not exceed the 100 million boarder including these two sources [ [56]], [57], [58] just before this one in question came into the picture. I'd appreciate if someone could comment on this. Thanks.-- Harout72 ( talk) 00:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
(UTC)
User:0XQ is adding this website to various articles (and has it on his user page, another issue perhaps). It's his own personal website with various texts on it. Before I remove it everywhere, I want to check to see that people agree that we can't use this as a RS (how do I know they are correct, for a start). Thanks. dougweller ( talk) 13:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I've seen this site used in various places, ut it is beginning to be used extensively to cite a list of cyberpunk works. Is it s reliable source? Or just an extensive blog? I question it because the writers seem very uninformed, and claim almost anything with a computer in as cyberpunk. Would prefer to find out before it is used 100s of times, thanks! Yobmod ( talk) 16:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, 'Kuru' has rashly deleted the 'academic research' references I am adding without actually reading them, and is not willing to undo his deletions even after I explained (kindly see his discussion page topic titled 'thanks', which I have copy pasted below). I am an academic researcher in US university and my intentions are good. I also know that Kuru's intentions are good, but I am not a 'vandal' against whom he thinks he is fighting. I would greatly appreciate it if you can please help him understand. Thanks. -- Ytrab ( talk) 04:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
________________________________________________
:(copy paste start)
:Yes, kuru. I have been reviewing the research literature. These are high quality references that I am adding from books and journals. I will add references from various authors in due course. Thanks for your kind support. -- Ytrab ( talk) 02:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
::A good idea would be to either add material to support with your citation, or at least find something that actually needs the citation. You appear to be adding citations to a single author very quickly across multiple articles to some very fundamental sentences - this comes across as a probable
conflict of interest. The citations in most of our business and economic articles quite frankly sucks, and we could certainly use the help. Let me know if I can clarify this any better.
Kuru
talk 02:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:Kuru, I am sorry but your rash actions dissappoint me. I understand your concerns, but you should give time to users. It takes a lot of time to find good legitimate sources and add them. By deleting my edits almost immediately without consultation you are simply discouraging efforts by users like me to improve the references. I have been a university researcher in these topics for many many years, and I know what I am doing (with due respect to your concerns). Otherwise, people like me will have to give up, because frankly I don't have time to debate my intentions and your rash deletions. I can make some time to improve Wikipedia, but it would be impossible if people like you delete additions almost as soon as I add them. You have dissappointed me. Can you please undo your deletions so that I can continue my sincere efforts? Or would like me to just leave, and you can play god? I will gladly leave if you want me to.--
Ytrab (
talk) 03:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
::As explained above, I'm afraid I can see little to no correlation between your citations and the text you've added them to. Perhaps you could explain your additions and why you've chosen to add the same ones over many articles? If you don't have time explain your position, that's certainly understandable - we all have precious little time to participate in a volunteer efforts - but I'm afraid that unless you're willing to explain or change your approach, I cannot help you.
Kuru
talk 03:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:Dear Kuru, The answer to your question is rather simple. The citations are relevant to the topic, and the wiki-articles to which I added citations were on similar topics -- hence the same citations. I have personally read these citations (as in the journal articles, book chapters, and conference papers) many times during my research. So I am surprised that you "see little to no correlation between your citations and the text". I encourage you to actually read the articles that I am citing (as in, actually read the journal articles and book chapters for which links are available), and I am sure your doubts will be cleared. Kindly read them before arriving at rash conclusions. It would be very unfair on your part if you make uninformed deletions without actually reading the citations. Also, there is no question of any conflict of interest because these journal/book/conference articles etc. are 'academic research', and is therefore for public good (which you will realize after actually reading them). Kuru, I know that your intentions are good, and so I hope that you will understand. --
Ytrab (
talk) 03:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:(copy paste end) ________________________________________________
Thank you everyone. I am leaving Wikipedia. Probably all of you have encountered so many vandals/bad people on Wikipedia, that you look at any new contributor with pessimism. "is this person a vandal? is this person upto something fishy? does this person have a COI?". I am none of these. I genuinely wanted to improve some of these poorly referenced Wikis with genuine research literature from multiple authors in the field (one author at a time). This obviously would take time and which I thought would be an ongoing process. Unfortunately, many of you doubted my intentions and rashly deleted all the work I was putting in (I do admire your ability to delete new stuff within a matter of seconds, even before the contributor completes what he/she set out to do). My sincere apologies if I hurt anyone, because I know all your intentions were good (though misdirected). Take care, and I am leaving Wikipedia for ever. No more posts from my side. My best wishes to all of you. -- Ytrab ( talk) 04:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
.
I was wondering about the reliability of http://www.casinogamblingweb.com/ as a news source, specifically this article. On the one hand, it reads like a press release, and the website has a "submit news" function, which seems to be its main source for news items. On the other hand, the article says it's "Posted By Susan Torres, Staff Editor, CasinoGamblingWeb.com", which indicates some sort of editorial oversight. Thoughts? Huon ( talk) 10:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
It has been disputed by User:jehochman that Times of India, NDTV, Indian Express are reliable sources of news. I need a neutral opinion. He has also said that to write about an US citizen one must use a US source of news. Is that a policy? Do we need to use only Indian media for information on Dr. Manmohan Singh (The current Prime Minister of India)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by M an as at yahoo.com ( talk • contribs) — M an as at yahoo.com ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
In order to help facilitate easier location of potential sources of offline information to help verify the notability of article subjects and contents, I have created Category:WikiProject reference libraries and placed into it all of the reference library pages of which I am aware. Please add more project reference libraries to this category if you know of more. Additionally, feel free to create new reference library pages for any particular project as well. They can be very useful. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Are Gothamist sites (gothamist.com, shanghaiist.com, chicagoist.com, etc.) valid sources? One of them popped up in a DYK nomination, and I wanted to check. I would be inclined to accept such sources, since the writers are actually employees of the site (as opposed to being random people from anywhere), but I seem to recall hearing objections about shanghaiist in the past. so I wanted to check here. — Politizer talk/ contribs 21:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I am reviewing the article The Elegance of the Hedgehog for GA status, and while most of the sources look reliable, I am unfamiliar with Frenchculture.org. The article in question is this one. Is this source reliable? Any help appreciated, the skomorokh 14:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
How reliable is this site? --neon white talk 13:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Please could you give me your opinions on whether (and which of) the following magazines and ezines could be considered reliable (and non-trivial), especially in regards to their analysis and criticism of lesbian culture:
kiden ( talk) 14:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Editor Hbent has been removing "photobucket references" from articles. This is what I stated on Hbent's talk page:
"Would you mind explaining why you made this edit? What policy on Wikipedia says that we cannot use photobucket as references? If Wikipedia does say that, then I am sure that the policy is in regards to photographs at photobucket due to the fact that photographs can be doctored.
My point is that photobucket is not the reference for those references you removed from the Todd Manning article. Those references are from valid soap opera magazines; the "photobucket references" are showing scanned articles from those magazines in which validate the article's text being stated. If you were going to remove all those references, the least you could have done is format the references so that they do not need urls.
I see that you have removed "photobucket references" from other articles as well. You should first discuss stuff like this over with other editors of the articles you are removing these from. There is no telling how many valid references you have removed from articles because of this.
I have reverted your edit to the Todd Manning article."
Of course...I would like clarification on this matter from editors here at the Noticeboard. Flyer22 ( talk) 05:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) There is some confusion here about the difference between copyrighted content and content that is a copyright violation. Linking to copyrighted content is fine, and so is using copyrighted content as a source. We wouldn't have much of an encyclopedia at all if you couldn't do those things. The problem here is linking to content that is in violation of copyright, specifically images that are being used by someone other than the copyright holder without the consent of that copyright holder. Magazine scans on photobucket are a perfect example of such a violation. Magazine scans elsewhere are trickier, but I would think that it can be presumed that scans (or interviews, or what have you) on an official site have probably been cleared.
Copyrighted content hosted on Wikipedia is only okay within limited circumstances, and those circumstances are policed here. I very much doubt that you could get away with uploading a scan of a copyrighted magazine article here because it would not qualify as fair use. I can't imagine that having the scan on photobucket would be any more legal than it would be here.
I asked on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions for someone with copyright expertise to weigh in here, and hopefully that will happen. hbent ( talk) 02:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I am attempting to show that an organization is not tax-exempt according to the United States Internal Revenue Service. The organization doesn't appear in Publication 78( a list of "all" tax-exampt organizaton), but may meet the guidelines for not having to be published in Publication 78. They do appear in the IRS Business Master File, which also has a list of tax-exempt organization. However, if you call the IRS Charities dept on the phone, give them the name or EIN of the organization, they will tell you that the organization has been tax-exempt since 2003. That is, however, the only information the I.R.S. can give over the phone because of "the status of the organization". I'd like to say something about the organization's tax-exempt status since I feel the organizations Wiki page misrepresents its tax-exempt status.
In other words, is saying "You can make a phone call to the IRS" a reliable source? Any suggestions?
Uwishiwazjohng ( talk) 21:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
This one web page is acting as source for a large percentage of Inter-Services Intelligence, an article about the ISI. I think the whole thing looks sketchy, but that may just be me. I'm open to comments. [62] CSHunt68 ( talk) 22:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Used in Packaging and labeling as discussed in Talk:Packaging_and_labeling#toxicsinpackaging.org_as_a_source. -- Ronz ( talk) 17:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
The Packaging and labeling article discusses environmental aspects of packaging. One of these is the need to keep toxic materials out of the package so, when it is recycled, burned, or landfilled, there will not be contamination. This subject has a citation which links it to the toxicsinpackaging.org website. Toxics in Packaging is a coalition of several US state governments for coordination of the issue and for its communication. It includes links to many state regulations. This is a reliable and unbiased source on toxics in packaging as it is the state governments providing the information. This is neither a controversial subject (it was 20 years ago) nor a controversial website. One WK editor, however, is challenging the suitability of this site for a refernece. See the packaging talk page for the discussion. Please review this and offer assistance. Thank you. Rlsheehan ( talk) 17:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Is this website the official MOD site for this unit of the TA. An IP has stated that it is a self published website by Gareth Baillie and not the official MOD site would the IP be correct or is it official thanks. If not official would its claims need to be taken with a pinch of salt. BigDunc Talk 09:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys, my removal of a reference on Total Chaos was contested, so I would like a second opinion. The link, [63], is a review of a game by someone with the handle "War Chicken", submitted to "Anugs's Homepage", which hosts "The Amiga Games Database". As far as I can tell, the database and its submissions are entirely handled by Angus Manwaring, and I'm unsure about his qualifications as "an established expert" (going by WP:SPS) Any opinions on this are appreciated. Marasmusine ( talk) 13:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This RS question is whether Stephen Hill, the cofounder of a notable niche music genre, "spacemusic", can be disqualified as a secondary source expert, and have his radio production company's website (= expert's book) reclassified with primary source usage restrictions (results in removal).
The radio production company is
Hearts of Space established 25 years ago (35 including the original Music From the Hearts of Space show on
KPFA). HoS was historically played on more than 250 USA public radio stations on a scale of 500. This
2004-01-11 San Francisco Chronicle description of Stephen Hill's expertise reads:
"Hill, who coined the term "spacemusic" more than 20 years ago, hosts the "Music From the Hearts of Space" music program, syndicated on 250 National Public Radio stations, including San Francisco's KALW 91.7 FM, which airs two hours of the program at 10 p.m. Sundays. In addition, Hill's Hearts of Space Web site (www.hos.com) provides streaming access to an archive of hundreds of hours of spacemusic artfully blended into one-hour programs combining ambient, electronic, world, New Age and classical music."
The claim as I understand it (maybe I don't), is that a justified primary source reclassification, along with other sources properly reclassified as primary, would cause a synthesis/OR violation in the article titled Space music. The further result would be that the cofounder's detailed analysis, opinions, and other website information would be mostly removed from the article about the genre he cofounded.
The campaigning editor says his most contentious objection is that the name of the genre is a "commercial entity's branding drive". Presumably, he objects strongly to a previously unnoticed form of commercial spam in the Wikipedia article, and a great wrong should be righted by minimizing it. If I correctly understand it, I can only describe this position as extremist.
Spacemusic genre is a case of limited circle fame. Its current USA public radio fans are thinly scattered, but dedicated to its support through public radio fund drives. Its niche music sales amount to less than 1% of the commercial market, so very little is written about spacemusic in major USA music publications dependent on commercial advertising.
(The rest of the 102
Space music sources to be considered for reclassification as primary, and then removed for synthesis/OR, should be handled separately to avoid noticeboard overload.)
Milo 15:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Just to be clear about the encyclopedia-margins deletionist effect of what you are both saying:
Stephen Hill and his Hearts of Space website were previously treated as expert-based secondary sources via WP:V( WP:SPS). The Wikipedia art/music reasoning has previously been that the founder of an art/music genre knows subjectively more about what he/she created than anyone else as a matter of expert opinion. You are changing that.
What a secondary source says can be combined in a point-by-point source-provable editorial analysis. In this case, since there are so few other mainstream sources, many or most of them are presently combined with Hill's previous secondary source expertise to write the article.
But a primary source has fewer rights in an article than a secondary source. What a primary source says cannot be combined with other sources for a standard article editorial analysis, even if every point made by article editors can be proved through analysis of the primary sources.
Art/music experts normally have secondary source rights under WP:V( WP:SPS). You are now removing Hill's secondary source rights, so you are in effect declaring that he is not an expert on the genre he founded. (Yes, you deny that, but the denial is cosmetic.) Since he is no longer an expert on his own work, his dominant presence in an article about his own creations constitutes undue weight, which can be removed by his opponents (and as already declared, will be removed by the campaigning editor).
The big names in creativity won't be affected at Wikipedia, but if one's creative work is notable, yet limited circle famous with few mainstream sources, this appears to be a significant deletionist change at the margins of Wikipedia. The effect is that a marginal creator's expertise is henceforth trumped by a marginal rival's expertise. I assume that hundreds of articles will eventually be affected as the art/music opponent class finds out they can now marginalize their rivals by de-experting and de-weighting them through primary sourcing.
Are you sure you want to go there? Milo 00:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
[Note: the article version as of the above date was Space Music 18:38, 14 November 2008.]
[Note: at this point the article was edited twice: Space Music 21:45, 17 November 2008 and Space music 21:46, 17 November 2008.]
←Let the record show:
This thread was again and again bloated with claims about non-sourcing issues. Since they were off-topic at this noticeboard, I ignored them. Now Semitransgenic yawns and claims to be attacked. Experienced editors will recognize these distractive ploys that herald a thread to be ended by gainsaying last-worders.
To summarize from the top post:
This RS question is whether Stephen Hill, the cofounder of a notable niche music genre, "spacemusic", can be disqualified as a secondary source expert, and have his radio production company's website (= expert's book) reclassified with primary source usage restrictions (results in removal).
The RS answers are:
- Stephen Hill is a notable expert as described under WP:V(WP:SPS). Hill's reliable secondary source expertise covers his writings and radio show including its website, archives and playlists.
- Hill's comments on his personal life, meaning those factors having an insubstantial connection to Hill's notable creative work, are reliable primary sources.
- Additionally, the 2004-01-11 San Francisco Chronicle article by Steve Sande, quoting Stephen Hill and others with analysis of this music, is an article that can be cited as a reliable source.
Milo 03:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Therefore: the SFC is wrong. Thanks for confirming this. Semitransgenic ( talk) 22:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I have an editor reverting edits/removing citations for BAM because they have never heard of it and because it is/was "a local niche magazine, not a reliable source". For those who may not know BAM was a California based music magazine for over two decades that was published in both a Northern and Southern California edition and also sponsored the yearly BAMMIES. It was as "local" as the NY Times is to New York City or to the LA Times is to Los Angeles. It was mainly about music but not specific to one style of form or even subject. "Frank Zappa - Interview from Hell" was only one cover story in it's history. At one point BAM merged with Seattle's Rocket ( "West Coast music magazines BAM and Seattle Rocket combine forces; now third-largest U.S. popular- music publication") and the BAMMIES were always a notable event in the Bay Area ( "Show Shouldn't Go On", "Bammies go one step further -- bronze plaques in the sidewalk", "Journey Induction into the BAMMIES Walk of Fame", "The Bay Area Music Awards", "ARTHUR M. SOHCOT Award", "Chris Isaak, Primus top Bammie ballot ;17th show honors Bay Area musicians on March 5" and "Nostalgia plays well at California Music Awards. Young bands win, but veterans steal show"). The overall issue here is when editors have never heard of something they sometimes remove a citation or information associated with it. A person outside of the industry may not have never heard of R&R, Pollstar, Entertainment Design or even Billboard because they are all, very clearly, "niche" publications yet they are all very good sources. Guitar For the Practicing Musician, Modern Drummer, Bass Player and Guitar Player Magazine may not be read by non musicians, however if someone started removing facts or information where any of these were cited as sources because they were "niche" publications it would be somewhat ludicrous. I don't live in Chicago but that does not mean I would discount an article on a Chicago musician who was featured in the Chicago Times, thusly included citations for that publications, because it was a "local" publication. For information about musicians that were playing in, lived in, and considered part of, the California scene a source such as BAM would a goldmine of information on certain "local" artists. Van Halen, Journey, Guns and Roses, RATT, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Quiet Riot, Carlos Santana, Frank Zappa, The Eagles and so many others were all covered at various times. So the question is, really, should a magazine that mainly covered the California music scene be considered a "a local niche magazine, not a reliable source"? Soundvisions1 ( talk) 13:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
It is kept by several libraries, so verifiability does not seem to be an issue. -- NE2 07:30, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
← To Jeandré Invoking Monty Python skits may be cute at first but this is getting ridiculous. With the Shaunna Hall link(s) (And even her own edits to the article) now you are saying that band members are not reliable sources for fact verification, so it makes me question this secret OTRS even more as it couldn't be from a band member. (Note that Self published sources can be, and are - all the time, used to verify certain facts, they should not be used to establish notability. However in this case that link is not "self" published by the subjects of the fact being verified as is not Wanda Day or Kara/Cara Crash saying "I was in Malibu Barbi", nor is it the source being used to establish notability of either musician so they can have their own stand alone article) Next you say, of an image gallery: "...this doesn't look like a reliable source at all, and doesn't even mention Crash which it's sourcing". Please note the following text that sets up the images: "When Rude Girl broke up, Sandy joined up with Heidi, Joann, and Kara from Missconception. They formed Malibu Barbi. While Leather was on the 12" recording, Melanie sang live and most other recordings. Later Lupe joined up with Kara and Joann, Industrial Rainforest. Pretty much, everyone local knew everyone" Kara = Cara. Clearly, because you feel BAM was a "a local niche magazine, not a reliable source", you also feel that because this photographer was a local San Francisco photographer these photos are not reliable sources. But I say it is now up to you to prove that these images are fake, along with any other sources you toss out as not being reliable. You appear to rely on "I have never heard it" put under the guise of a policy/guideline that you feel implies that if an editor has never heard of something than it could not be used as a source. This is an open challenge for Jeandré to now prove that this band did not exist and that the members who were in it over a several year period were never really in the band. I have done more than enough to verify the band existed and that both Kara/Cara Crash and Wanda Day were in the band. If you feel it is some hoax that prove it. Or just be 100% honest here and say "I have no clue about BAM, the music industry, the California music scene or the musicians that were part of it, are part of it or may be part it in the future" and we can move on. Soundvisions1 ( talk) 14:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Without getting into the topic-specific details of this long discussion, I can offer my outside view that BAM magazine is a generally reliable source for music-related information that it published during its 23-year existence. As was mentioned above in this section, the magazine had national notability and was widely respected. Unless there is conflicting information in other sources, I'd have no hesitation to use it as a source. If it published information that is disputed by other reliable sources, then both sources can be used, but with attribution for clarity. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 21:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd like an unbiased opinion on the reliability of these two books:
Edelman, E, Natural Healing for Schizophrenia, Borage Books, 3rd edition, 2001
Pfeiffer CC. Nutrition and Mental Illness: An Orthomolecular Approach to Balancing Body Chemistry. Healing Arts Press., 1988.
They form the basis for a couple of contentious articles. Thanks! Guyonthesubway ( talk) 16:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
"Healing Arts" is an imprint of Bear & Company, which is not a medical publisher as such. See [72].
"Borage Books" is a single book publisher with an obvious interest in pushing the one book. I doubt it qualifies as RS at all as a result. It links to "clinics" and the like which have a financial interest in the book as well. Collect ( talk) 16:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
A simple question, should a book review be used as evidence of what is in the book?
My reason for asking is that the Indian Rebellion of 1857 article contains details about a controversial book on the subject based on a Guardian newspaper review, not the book itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsloch ( talk • contribs)
Would someone please have a look at Iraq War? User:99.137.127.111 ( contributions, talk) and I are both up against 3RR on it: my preferred version; 99.137.127.111's preferred version;
99.137.127.111 is intent on: (A) placing reports of Bush being burned in effigy in the introduction of the article, which I believe is unwarranted by the current length of the article (206 KB!, but there is no noticeboard for long articles) and (B) using newspaper reports attributed to anonymous sources claiming that they request anonymity for no other reason than that they are not trusted to speak with the media in order to stir up dissent about the recently-ratified Status of Forces Agreement based on supposed rationales which are completely ungrounded in facts.
At what point does a source's reliability depend on the reliability of its underlying sources? I would argue that any source always depends directly on the reliability of its underlying sources, barring some underlying accidental situation, and that we should always consider the underlying reliability when making judgements about what to include in any articles, let alone space-limited articles.
Does anyone disagree? If you agree, please revert to my preferred version or some reasonable merge thereof. Thank you. Southern Command Stooge ( talk) 18:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The article also cited specialists who weren't barred by the government from speaking to media. Anyone who actually reads the articles will be able to tell this. Finally, the sources are attributed as anonymous in the article.-- 99.137.127.111 ( talk) 19:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)All three declined to speak on the record because the administration, which had planned to release the official English language text last week, has instead designated it "sensitive but unclassified."
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | → | Archive 30 |
This is a BBC-sponsored endeavour which is self-contributed articles; problem is that although some of it is peer-reviewed (although we have no guarantees as to the quality of the reviewers), some of it is not. Arising from an editor seeking to use it as a source, a search shows we have about 900 references to it, some of which will be about h2g2, but some using it as a reliable source. I'm wondering if this has been looked at before, since it seems largely comparable with IMDb; your input would be welcome. If there is a reliable way of sorting the good from the poor, other sources should be sought if necessary. Cheers. -- Rodhull andemu 23:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I am using a plaque that I have taken a photo of and uploaded to the commons as a source for an article. I have submitted this article for GA review and the reviewer says such a source is unreliable. I disagree, why is a plaque less reliable than any other published source, especially since it is at the site itself. The plaque is not making an outstanding claims, rather it is simply describing the construction date of the hall and its contents. What is everyone else's opinion? Zeus1234 ( talk) 23:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Can not find the page You are the search page may have been deleted, renamed or is temporarily unavailable.
Please try the following:
* Ensure that the browser's address bar of the Web site address and format of the spelling is correct. * If you arrive by clicking on the link and the page, please contact the site administrator, informing them of the link format is incorrect. * Click the Back button to try another link.
HTTP Error 404 - file or directory not found. Internet Information Services (IIS)
Information technology (for the provision of technical support staff)
* Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and search, including "HTTP" and "404" title. * Open the "IIS Help" (in IIS Manager (inetmgr) access), and then search for the title of the "Web site set up," "conventional management" and "on the custom error message". Chinese
If I take a video of someone famous being interviewed, i.e. http://www.screenwritingexpo.com, can I cite it later as a primary source? – thedemonhog talk • edits 06:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Here's a blog post with a couple of links about Elsevier’s Chaos, Solitons, and Fractals. Also posted at the Fringe theories Noticeboard. Anybody familiar with these issues? Tom Harrison Talk 12:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
As it's just been brought up, it would be nice to know if it really qualifies as a reliable source. Lots of links [1] eg Camp Eggers. I don't see how it can be seen as a RS if the article on it is correct. The BBC calls it a 'Chechen rebel website'. [2] dougweller ( talk) 17:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate an opinion here whether commentaries provided by tour guides/tour guest lecturers are a reliable source. The argument for is that these people are often experts on the subject; the argument against is that no record of the commentary exists and the content is therefore unverifiable. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 04:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I've got a situation here and I'm not quite sure how to handle this guy. Talk:Konglish#Konglish_References. He seems have immediately gone to a position of WP:IDHT and basically seems to be flat-out refusing to listen to the fact that what he wants violates numerous policies. He even admits early in the discussion that the sources don't pass WP:V, but thinks he can create a local consensus to ignore that, even though I've pointed out WP:CONSENSUS doesn't permit that. Since this involves WP:RS in a way, perhaps if one or two people could go there and further explain it, it might become more clear. The references basically consist of random blogs and (I kid you not) things like images..without text.. for example the citation for the korean word for "couple shirt" (meaning a couple wearing a similar shirt/outfit) was just a picture of two people wearing the same shirt..no text, no evidence of the word, spelling, meaning, etc.-- Crossmr ( talk) 16:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
The article appears to be based on a Hoover's Profile and the Gale Group's International Directory of Company Histories. Both those seem to be reliable sources, but how about the Answers.com article? Of course it would be better if I could go directly to the original sources, but they appear to be quite expensive. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 20:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
http://ifcomp.org/ is the web site for the Interactive Fiction Competition. It is a relatively small competition, but has been recognized by sites including The Wall Street Journal, Hackszine published by O'Reilly Media, Destructoid published by ModernMethod, Slashdot ( article) published by SourceForge, Inc., Joystiq ( article) published by Weblogs, Inc., mediabistro published by Jupitermedia, GameSetWatch published by Think Services, and the book the book Twisty Little Passages. As such I think it's a notable enough to include in articles about interactive fiction, limited to claims that the competition itself is reliable on: rules, who competed, and final results. For example, in the article Floatpoint, one might claim:
The competition is third-party to the subject of the article, but first-party to the specific claims. While first-party, they are the most authoritative source for the information; all any third-party source could do is reprint the claims. This would be like sourcing claims about a film winning an Oscar to http://oscar.com/oscarnight/winners/index . As such, I think the citations would be reliable and appropriate. Obviously there is disagreement, or I wouldn't be inquiring. (If the previous link is a bit overwhelming, but you want to check out the discussion, you might start here. where a fourth editor joined the discussion.) So, is IFComp.org a reliable source for claims about the competitions rules, competitors, and final results? — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Can someone please help us assess the reliability of some sources at Talk:Creation_according_to_Genesis#Tjbergsma.27s_edits. please? At the moment it's 1 vs. 1 so we're not really getting anywhere. Cheers, Ben ( talk) 05:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
An article entitled "Aspartame Adverse Reaction Reports Down in 1994 From 1985 Peak". from Food Chemical News, an industry trade publication published by Informa, has some information related to reported adverse effects of aspartame. User:Eldereft removed it, questioning its reliability. I reverted his removal, and he reverted me back. I started a thread about it, and he never commented. I've now verified the source myself and added it back (not logged in). [17] User:Verbal reverted me, and has also neglected to comment. Now User:ScienceApologist states that "the article in question is not about "Aspartame Controversy". The information added:
In 1995, FDA Epidemiology Branch Chief Thomas Wilcox reported that aspartame complaints represented 75% of all reports of adverse reactions to substances in the food supply from 1981 to 1995. He stated that "there is still concern" about the substance and that "some people have an intolerance [to aspartame]".
II | ( t - c) 08:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Food Chemical News appears to be a reliable source in the ordinary sense. The statement sent up redflags for me, and I erroneously concluded that it is a partisan source analogous to Natural News. I am refocusing my wikitime towards more normal science articles to save on headaches and drama - sorry for drifting in and out of that article as I did. I render no opinion regarding whether the source is being used properly or, well, anything else about the history of public perceptions of aspartame. - Eldereft ( cont.) 03:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
An online source titled Tobacco Timeline is added after the sentence "Anti- tobacco movements grew in many nations from the beginning of the 20th century" in the first paragraph of the article Anti-tobacco movement in Nazi Germany. This fact is already supported by this scholarly reference written by Richard Doll. The Tobacco.org source is written by a person named Gene Borio. I google searched to know more about Borio. What I found is that Gene Borio is a blogger, [18] an anti-tobacco activist [19] and the webmaster [20] of Tobacco.org. Borio runs a daily blog Tobacco On Trial. The site Tobacco.org is described as "the top international website for tobacco control news" in a blog [21]. The site Tobacco.org was also featured in the BMJ [22]. Here is an image of Gene Borio. I found a comment on Gene Borio in the Internet: " Ace anti-tobacco reporter Gene Borio, operating from a smoke-free gopher hole deep in New York City, combed through hundreds of thousands of tobacco industry documents, finally uncovering, on one of the tobacco papers web sites, a shocking account of tobacco company perfidy the like of which has never before been seen" [23]. Another comment on Borio: "Gene Borio has compiled an impressiveamount of information regarding tobacco marketing strategies (some of this will shock you.), health and prevention information, as well as updates on many legal actions involving cigarette manufacturers". [24] Historian Muhammad Tariq Ghazi labels Gene Borio as a "tobacco historian" [25]. New York Times describes Gene Borio as an "Internet writer" [26]. The impression I got from the google search is that Gene Borio has achieved somewhat Internet celebrity like status among the anti-smoking community in the Internet. If search for Gene Borio + tobacco, google news returns 16 ghits.
Now my question is that, although Gene Borio is an anti-tobacco activist, Internet writer and blogger, I cannot find his educational qualification. A google search for Tobacco.org returns 121,000 ghits, google search in domain edu returns 516 ghits, google news returns 53 ghits. But despite such coverage in the Internet, the problem here is that the sole contributor to this website is Gene Borio who's academic credential is unknown. Borio is owner, developer and writer of this site. So should I use Tobacco.org as a reliable source in a featured article? Please advise. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 11:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. I'd appreciate a third opinion on the current active discussion at Talk:List of eponymous laws if someone has a moment. Thanks. — Hex (❝?!❞) 21:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:No original research#Regarding maps being "primary sources" according to this policy -- Rschen7754 ( T C) 06:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this edit. Can anyone comment on odishatoday.com? Is it a reliable source? -- Googlean Results 10:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Relata refero, can you reveal who is the MP related to dailypioneer? Apparently an IP editor added lots of stuff , all referenced to pioneer . I am suspecting it is another POV pushing -- Tinu Cherian - 09:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In the Alexander Litvinenko article, I have used a source from the Conflict Studies Research Centre of the Defence Academy of the United Kingdom to provide various information into the article. The report is published by the CSRC, and the author of the piece I am quoting is named Henry Plater-Zyberk, a senior lecturer and analyst of the CSRC. He is well regarded as a specialist in this area, and as a scholar has published and been cited, both in scholarly works and books. There is no doubt that both the CSRC and the author are reliable sources by the letter of WP:RS. An editor is now removing sourced information from the article, because Plater-Zyberk in his work is critical of Litvinenko and because all CSRC publications carry the disclaimer:
The views expressed in this paper are entirely and solely those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect official thinking and policy either of Her Majesty’s Government or of the Ministry of Defence.
It is the opinion of the editor that this is an editorial due to the existence of this disclaimer.
Note in the information introduced into the article that I have not placed information stating that this is the view of the British government, nor of the Ministry of Defence. Such disclaimers are standard when experts in their field are employed by a government and they write on subjects in their field of expertise.
The report in question can be found here.
Can others please confirm or deny that these are reliable sources. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 14:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Let me explain it to you Russavia, you're now using the opinion of an author because it matches your opinion of Litvinenko whom you think was a nutcase as you admitted yourself. However if that's how wikipedia works it could also work against you. For example in another article on the same site from the Conflict Studies Research Centre of the Defence Academy of the United Kingdom an author speaks about Chechen genocide commited by Russia [30] I don't think you would agree if I start presenting that as fact now under the disguise of a reliable source now right? No, because these are merely opinions from an author, not necessarily facts. Grey Fox ( talk) 15:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Let's look at what was written:
A report by the Conflict Studies Research Centre of the Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, in which the author states that Litvinenko was a "one-man disinformation bureau", suggests the claim was made with "no evidence to support" it, and further stated that this claim, and Litvinenko's claim that the FSB was behind the Beslan school hostage crisis, was accepted without challenge by the British media.
Just where is the statement of fact here? It is obvious it is his opinion. It could do with a little copy-edit, but to remove it without an actual attempt to reword it yourself, and all other sourced claims to this, on the basis of flimsy excuses that I have seen both here and on the talk page, is not quite excusable. As to the Armenian shooting, you are still going to claim that it was the authors opinion that Litvinenko claimed it was ostensibly to derail the Nagorno-Karabakh peace agreement? Even when presented with this source which states:
"Pursuing certain political aims, the Russian special services often turn to subversive activity. Many know in highest echelons of Russia's special services that the shooting of the Armenian parliament in 1999 was organized by RMR. This sabotage enabled Russia's political elite to prevent signing of the agreement on Karabakh settlement. If I am not mistaken, it was said that president Aliyev and Kocharian were to sign a memorandum at the Istanbul summit of OSCE. The peaceful process was developing aloof from Russia's control and that made Russian special services to carry out the special mission in the Armenian parliament", Litvinenko told Real Azerbaijan online newspaper.
Can you now see that your and Biophys' "editorial" line just doesn't cut it. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 18:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Kaveh Farrokh has been blocked for 6 weeks over a dispute about the lead, which calls someone with a PhD thesis on " The relationships among cognitive processes, language experience and errors in Farsi speaking ESL adults.", who works as a college counsellor but has published two books on history, "an expert in the field of Iranian history and linguistics" on the basis of this article [31] -- since it is protected on that version, those of us who think you need a better source to call someone an expert, and indeed that the word expert shouldn't even be used in the lead (see the talk page for numerous examples of undoubted experts whose articles have neutral leads) may as well give up insisting on reliable sources (that is, if we are right of course) as those who are happy to use a journalist to determine if someone is an expert, and happy to use the word expert in the lead, have no incentive to resolve the dispute and the article will stay locked. This seems a ridiculous state of affairs to me, but then I have a POV on the RS issue here. dougweller ( talk) 18:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know if this web site here is acceptable to be used as a reliable source on a contentious article? This is the web site page being cited here, and this is were it is being used as a reference in the article here reference no. 2. Thanks very much, -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Thats sound Blueboar thanks for that, -- Domer48 'fenian' 15:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
There's an AFD on it, but if anyone wants to they can see if the sources establish notability and are reliable. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sparkling Generation Valkyrie Yuuki (2nd nomination) WhisperToMe ( talk) 17:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Now the silliness in JtP has reached the point where the New York Times is "rejected" as a source for calling Joe tha Plumber a plumber. "I've reread it too. Everything in the NY Times citation that Collect refers to seems to be based on Joe's testimony. We know that just because the NY Times regurgitates Joe's presentation of himself isn't enough for a RS. That's tantamount to self-promotion. Also, more neutral sources don't depend on Joe's testimony. Certainly no one expects Joe to come out and independently and impartially proclaim that he has been working on an apprenticeship since 2003 and has no independent plumbing license. Only an independent, neutral source is likely to do so. Collect, it seems we have to reject the citation on that basis, even though it is definitely from the honorable NY Times. VictorC (talk) 04:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC) " " OK. Well in case anyone's paying attention, let's reject Collect's citation from the NY Times. I have three possible reasons for this: 1) There are more recent citations; 2) The reason we are using the citation is based on Joe's statements - not an impartial source - and; 3) The statements are among the quotes from Joe that he is "getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000 to $280,000 a year,” that he "told Mr. Obama he has been a plumber for 15 years," the first of which has been debunked as not too reliable, the second of which Collect is basing his RS on. So, I propose that this source is no longer reliable: 1) it's outdated; 2) it's not based on an impartial source; 3) the source has been shown to have dubious reliability. If we can agree to drop this specific NY Times citation, let's agree on using a different source. Let's find one that's more up to date; uses a more impartial source (than the individual himself); and shows itself to be less dubious. VictorC (talk) 05:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)"
This is a tad inane since these folks rejected the opinions in WP:BLP/N that Joe the Plumber is a plmber as far as "occupation" is concerned -- so now they have to reject the NYT mainly because it does not agree with what the few people want it to say. Now the issue is this -- is not liking what a RS says a valid reason for "rejecting" it? Collect ( talk) 05:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Since this is the noticeboard for reliable source issues, we're not going to decide here if Joe is a plumber or not. We already know that the New York Times a reliable source in general, so the question for this forum as far as I can tell is: is there some reason the New York Times should be disqualified from use as a source in this particular situation? If a fact reported in the New York Times turns out to be incorrect, that does not make the source unreliable, but it does indicate the source was incorrect on that point, ie, they made a mistake. But unless the mistake is commented upon by another reliable source, it's original research to compare the fact with other facts and make a determination in Wikipedia about which source was correct.
Therefore, the best approach may be to attribute the statement to the source and clearly identify what was actually stated. In other words, not "Joe is a plumber" and then a New York Times footnote, instead: "According to the New York Times, Joe described himself as a plumber" (or something like that; I'm not addressing the details of the use, only the source question). If the NY Times article does not have solid footing for determining Joe's occupation, maybe there are other sources that would be better to use for that. On the other hand, the way it's presented in the NY Times might still have use for the Wikipedia article - that is an editorial decision, not a WP:RS decision. As far as declaring the New York Times to be unreliable as a source in factual reporting of current events, that does not seem like an appropriate option.-- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 20:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
As I have already stated at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Occupation_of_Joe_the_Plumber, he mwwts the Wikipedia definition of a Plumber. The sources, including the one in question from The New York Times, describe him as a plumber. It's still unclear if the issue is that he does not have a license, but that still does not affect the nature of his profession. Alansohn ( talk) 01:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Is the Freeport Long Island History blog a reliable source? I know the topic reasonably well (it's where I grew up) and everything there looks well researched. The blogger identifies herself as "Regina, a librarian at the Freeport Memorial Library" and the library prominently links to the blog and says that it is "a joint project between the Freeport Library and the Freeport Historical Society." Sounds OK to me, but I know there is a strong presumption against blogs. - Jmabel | Talk 08:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
An editor has claimed that an article from the National Post is not a reliable source because the NP is a tabloid in the derogatory sense. To my eyes, the NP is a newspaper that occasionally takes strong, and sometimes controversial positions, but no more so than Fox News, or the NY Times. Any guidance would be appreciate. Mattnad ( talk) 15:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
(Cross-posted to the BLP noticeboard.) Dan Willis (author) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - There is an ongoing dispute over the consideration and classification of some sources. Specifically, there is disagreement over whether some sources are primary, self-published and/or independent of the subject. This has lead to further disagreement regarding whether or not notability has been established and BLP standards are being met. Outside opinions are needed to help resolve the dispute. Additional comments at Talk:Dan Willis (author)#RfC: Notability would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Vassyana ( talk) 19:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Question about public court records, which are not available to the general public online (but can be viewed by the general public at the courthouse).
1 - are they deemed verifiable, or is verifiability of a source dependent on whether there is a hyperlink leading to it?
2 - are they deemed original research? And if so, how then how exactly do they become more worthy of citation by virtue of a third-party (i.e. a newspaper) reporting on them?
3 - if the answer depends on the purpose/content of the citation, where is the line drawn? (i.e. "Joe Blow was convicted of theft and sentenced to two years in prison" or "Jane Blow is scheduled to appear for sentencing on May 1st" or "Joe Blow sued Jane Blowhard for $100,000 for negligence").
4 - if they are permissible, what would be the appropriate citation format (particularly where the source cannot be hyperlinked)?
-- Lawduck ( talk) 04:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
( talk) 21:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Is the Daily Mail a reliable source or a tabloid.It was a broadsheet paper now being published in tabloid format.One article which is being used is this [34].Can you please clarify on this. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 12:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In the past five years there has been almost 15 magnificiant discoveries dugged up in south India. multiple iron age urn burials in 2005 to magnum opus script inscription lately - but none of this issues made to be published as a book or official jurnouls. All of this have dated Tamil language usage to latest 3rd century BC and earliest to be from 6th to 7 th century BC. Based on thier inscriptions. The only available resources on these are not from journals or books or thesis. but news of reportbased on carbon 14 reports on newspapers and official online such as BBC and so.
I would like to know if this web site [39] - by historian, BBC documentary broadcaaster and prinston teacher; michael woods - is reliable
and this [40]
and this [41]
and this [42]
and this [43] to be used as references on the article about first written Tamil at [44] -- Master YODA ( talk) 23:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
This New York Post article is used to support the statement "...Hicks claims she was "swindled" out of her fair share of the film's profits..." about the Hicks-Byrne controversy in the Esther Hicks biography. There is an ongoing discussion about this on: Talk:Esther Hicks#Hicks claims she did not receive her fair share of the film's profits. I would very much appreciate input on whether this is a reliable source in the present context. -- Crowsnest ( talk) 13:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Are these considered a reliable source regarding description of production issues, etc.? — Mattisse ( Talk) 02:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This must have come up before but I don't see it in the history - where do we stand on the use of indymedia as a reliable source? It seems to be used a lot in fringe political articles. -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 16:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a dispute if private genealogy website can be used as a source for articles on Polish-Ukrainian conflict during WWII. All request to provide evidence per WP:BURDEN about reliability of website have been ignored so far, in favour of blind revert warring [45], [46] so third opinion of community is required. Wiki policy is quite clear Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Private, self-published genealogy website, publicising hoaxes (e.g. picture used to illustrate massacres of Poles [47] is well known hoax, having nothing to do with WWII) clearly is not a quality source for sensitive topic like this one. M0RD00R ( talk) 21:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Is Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski a reliable source in history articles? List of WP articles that cite him: [48]. He is not a historian by training; the advantage of being an amateur is the lack of professional accountability. Sample statements from his website: "The author, Jeff Sarlet is so far the only journalist who succeeded in documenting the activities of the hidden elite, headquartered in Arlington, on the outskirts of Washington DC, “The Family,” at the core of American fundamentalist Protestant power, was originally created along the lines of European fascism in 1935 by Abraham Vereide, who organized the wealthy internationalist elite...They have had an enormous impact on the beliefs of Americans in the 20th century and on U.S. imperialist policy in the 21st century, through their secret machinations which have been unsuspected by most Americans." [49]. Yikes. Novickas ( talk) 17:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Ongoing edit war at Magee Secondary School about who the current school administration is.
Discussion from a few days ago can be found at the bottom of this page and here. More recent discussion is here. -- Onorem ♠ Dil 13:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
<--(unindent) Content dispute != vandalism, and please do not ever say that again, Double Blue. In fact, I see very little discussion of this matter on the talk page of the article. Why is it happening here instead of there? Go back to the TALK page, outline the different references available, and as a group determine which of those sites provides the best information. If none of them appear to be reliable, perhaps the best solution is *not to include unverifiable information in the first place*. It is not the end of the world to have a blank in an infobox, and would be preferable to having incorrect or out-of-date information. Risker ( talk) 14:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Cristol, A. Jay (2002). The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship. Dulles, Virginia: Brassey's. ISBN 1-57488-414-X.
His website [53]
Relevant AN/I thread here: here
USS Liberty Incident has been a long term problem article as it tends to attack Single Purpose Accounts with a POV agenda. Author A. Jay Cristol has written a book that purports to debunk many of the conspiracy theories. Editors on talk page have made a series of criticisms, though none back up by secondary sources, claiming the book is unreliable and the author has manipulated the evidence. Secondary sources I've found to date would indicate that, conspiracy theory websites aside, the book is well regarded as an authorative independent investigation. Most recently when I asked for secondary sources to back up what the editors claim I received this response:
I found them and I'm not even computor literate. You can find them much faster than I could. Go for it.
Requesting independent third party judgment on the credibility of this source as per WP:RS. Justin talk 14:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Misleading request (this comment added by an involved editor) - nobody has set out to claim that Cristol's book is not an RS - the problem under discussion is the UNDUE we've giving it over better regarded sources/books.
Cristol's "The Liberty Incident" 2002 gets 1 cite (and his 1999 dissertation gets two) according to Google Scholar - by comparison, Ennes's 1979 "Assault on the Liberty" gets 5 citations. Other books with chapters on the incident are much, much better again - "Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-secret National Security Agency" - J Bamford - 2001 - Doubleday - Cited by 47.
And yet, the treatment we give Cristol, both as to his person and his book, is far better than what we give Ennes and Bamford. There are lots of other serious problems at this article (eg treatment of possible motives for Israel attacking is extraordinarily POV) which I could go into, but this request is a complete mis-statement of them. There is, however, another source being used that is non-RS, at one point in the article, Cristol's views even get a second bite of the cherry by re-statement in an opinion piece from the ADL. PR talk 16:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
The USS Liberty: Dissenting History Vs. Official History By John E Borne Published by Reconsideration Press, 1996
The USS Liberty: Dissenting History Vs. Official History By John E. Borne Published by New York University, Graduate School of Arts and Science, 1993
Two different versions of the same source. I'm finding it difficult to find any information about Reconsideration Press. I'm presuming the second reference is the publication of a doctoral thesis. 16:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Are those two reliable in matters of Egyptology? wp:rs says, "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." While Harpur was a New Testament professor, neither are/were trained Egyptologists, and I think the ideas of the self-taught Massey in particular is on the fringe as far as ancient Egyptian and comparative religion goes. As far as mainstream acceptance goes, Christian scholar W. Ward Gasque noted, "Professor Kenneth A. Kitchen of the University of Liverpool pointed out that not one of these men is mentioned in M. L. Bierbrier’s Who Was Who in Egyptology (3rd ed, 1995), nor is any of their works listed in Ida B. Pratt’s very extensive bibliography on Ancient Egypt (1925/1942)." http://hnn.us/articles/6641.html . Also Massey's work is long out of date; he missed all the breakthroughs in the field of the past century. As far as Harpur's fringe goes: 'First, he insists, there was "the greatest cover-up of all time" at the beginning of the fourth century; and thousands of Christian scholars are now participants in this on-going cover-up.' Ibid.
For more information here is Tom Harpurs biography, and Massey's books Madridrealy ( talk) 16:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can see, [www.imdb.com] IMDB is editable by any user and does not cite the sources editors use when coming up with a plot synopsis. Where a work needs interpretation, does IMDB cut it as a reliable source of information? Alastairward ( talk) 21:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
IMDB is not self-published, and though editable by "any user", it does in fact (at least as of yesterday) require confirmations and sources for submitted informations, and it routinely rejects user submissions that are not themselves accomanied by sources... though IMDB does not share those sources as Wiki requires for its own articles. Different entities, different rules. Keep in mind though, that IMDB's usefulness as a source is in continued contention (see CIMDB and ( recent discussions)... and you will find editors wishing it banned outright. That being said, and the arguments about its usefulness notwithstanding, it is still a terrific tool to guide you to other locations for finding the informations you wish. If you find a plot synopsis on IMDB, it is extremely likely that you will find a better and more complete one elsewhere, as that better one was likely used as a source for whatever is on IMDB. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
The Alternative media claims that the mainstream media is in error, even slanted towards some agenda. Wikipedia claims that Alternative media is unreliable. I'm here for clarification only. Powerzilla ( talk) 15:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
First, let me just say that the artists listed on List of best-selling music artists need to be supported by very reliable sources which in their turn must contain sales-figures within. This source which is for Backstreet Boys was recently added to the page to support 200 million records sold by the band. Even though, the source may seem reliable, the sales figure of that kind for Backstreet Boys is clearly overinflated. Therefore, I first wanted to ask for the opinion of people here who might be familiar with PGCitizen.ca, because I don't want to start a controversy over tossing it out. Also, let me point out that most sales-figures for Backstreet Boys published by reliable sources do not exceed the 100 million boarder including these two sources [ [56]], [57], [58] just before this one in question came into the picture. I'd appreciate if someone could comment on this. Thanks.-- Harout72 ( talk) 00:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
(UTC)
User:0XQ is adding this website to various articles (and has it on his user page, another issue perhaps). It's his own personal website with various texts on it. Before I remove it everywhere, I want to check to see that people agree that we can't use this as a RS (how do I know they are correct, for a start). Thanks. dougweller ( talk) 13:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I've seen this site used in various places, ut it is beginning to be used extensively to cite a list of cyberpunk works. Is it s reliable source? Or just an extensive blog? I question it because the writers seem very uninformed, and claim almost anything with a computer in as cyberpunk. Would prefer to find out before it is used 100s of times, thanks! Yobmod ( talk) 16:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, 'Kuru' has rashly deleted the 'academic research' references I am adding without actually reading them, and is not willing to undo his deletions even after I explained (kindly see his discussion page topic titled 'thanks', which I have copy pasted below). I am an academic researcher in US university and my intentions are good. I also know that Kuru's intentions are good, but I am not a 'vandal' against whom he thinks he is fighting. I would greatly appreciate it if you can please help him understand. Thanks. -- Ytrab ( talk) 04:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
________________________________________________
:(copy paste start)
:Yes, kuru. I have been reviewing the research literature. These are high quality references that I am adding from books and journals. I will add references from various authors in due course. Thanks for your kind support. -- Ytrab ( talk) 02:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
::A good idea would be to either add material to support with your citation, or at least find something that actually needs the citation. You appear to be adding citations to a single author very quickly across multiple articles to some very fundamental sentences - this comes across as a probable
conflict of interest. The citations in most of our business and economic articles quite frankly sucks, and we could certainly use the help. Let me know if I can clarify this any better.
Kuru
talk 02:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:Kuru, I am sorry but your rash actions dissappoint me. I understand your concerns, but you should give time to users. It takes a lot of time to find good legitimate sources and add them. By deleting my edits almost immediately without consultation you are simply discouraging efforts by users like me to improve the references. I have been a university researcher in these topics for many many years, and I know what I am doing (with due respect to your concerns). Otherwise, people like me will have to give up, because frankly I don't have time to debate my intentions and your rash deletions. I can make some time to improve Wikipedia, but it would be impossible if people like you delete additions almost as soon as I add them. You have dissappointed me. Can you please undo your deletions so that I can continue my sincere efforts? Or would like me to just leave, and you can play god? I will gladly leave if you want me to.--
Ytrab (
talk) 03:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
::As explained above, I'm afraid I can see little to no correlation between your citations and the text you've added them to. Perhaps you could explain your additions and why you've chosen to add the same ones over many articles? If you don't have time explain your position, that's certainly understandable - we all have precious little time to participate in a volunteer efforts - but I'm afraid that unless you're willing to explain or change your approach, I cannot help you.
Kuru
talk 03:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:Dear Kuru, The answer to your question is rather simple. The citations are relevant to the topic, and the wiki-articles to which I added citations were on similar topics -- hence the same citations. I have personally read these citations (as in the journal articles, book chapters, and conference papers) many times during my research. So I am surprised that you "see little to no correlation between your citations and the text". I encourage you to actually read the articles that I am citing (as in, actually read the journal articles and book chapters for which links are available), and I am sure your doubts will be cleared. Kindly read them before arriving at rash conclusions. It would be very unfair on your part if you make uninformed deletions without actually reading the citations. Also, there is no question of any conflict of interest because these journal/book/conference articles etc. are 'academic research', and is therefore for public good (which you will realize after actually reading them). Kuru, I know that your intentions are good, and so I hope that you will understand. --
Ytrab (
talk) 03:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:(copy paste end) ________________________________________________
Thank you everyone. I am leaving Wikipedia. Probably all of you have encountered so many vandals/bad people on Wikipedia, that you look at any new contributor with pessimism. "is this person a vandal? is this person upto something fishy? does this person have a COI?". I am none of these. I genuinely wanted to improve some of these poorly referenced Wikis with genuine research literature from multiple authors in the field (one author at a time). This obviously would take time and which I thought would be an ongoing process. Unfortunately, many of you doubted my intentions and rashly deleted all the work I was putting in (I do admire your ability to delete new stuff within a matter of seconds, even before the contributor completes what he/she set out to do). My sincere apologies if I hurt anyone, because I know all your intentions were good (though misdirected). Take care, and I am leaving Wikipedia for ever. No more posts from my side. My best wishes to all of you. -- Ytrab ( talk) 04:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
.
I was wondering about the reliability of http://www.casinogamblingweb.com/ as a news source, specifically this article. On the one hand, it reads like a press release, and the website has a "submit news" function, which seems to be its main source for news items. On the other hand, the article says it's "Posted By Susan Torres, Staff Editor, CasinoGamblingWeb.com", which indicates some sort of editorial oversight. Thoughts? Huon ( talk) 10:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
It has been disputed by User:jehochman that Times of India, NDTV, Indian Express are reliable sources of news. I need a neutral opinion. He has also said that to write about an US citizen one must use a US source of news. Is that a policy? Do we need to use only Indian media for information on Dr. Manmohan Singh (The current Prime Minister of India)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by M an as at yahoo.com ( talk • contribs) — M an as at yahoo.com ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
In order to help facilitate easier location of potential sources of offline information to help verify the notability of article subjects and contents, I have created Category:WikiProject reference libraries and placed into it all of the reference library pages of which I am aware. Please add more project reference libraries to this category if you know of more. Additionally, feel free to create new reference library pages for any particular project as well. They can be very useful. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Are Gothamist sites (gothamist.com, shanghaiist.com, chicagoist.com, etc.) valid sources? One of them popped up in a DYK nomination, and I wanted to check. I would be inclined to accept such sources, since the writers are actually employees of the site (as opposed to being random people from anywhere), but I seem to recall hearing objections about shanghaiist in the past. so I wanted to check here. — Politizer talk/ contribs 21:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I am reviewing the article The Elegance of the Hedgehog for GA status, and while most of the sources look reliable, I am unfamiliar with Frenchculture.org. The article in question is this one. Is this source reliable? Any help appreciated, the skomorokh 14:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
How reliable is this site? --neon white talk 13:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Please could you give me your opinions on whether (and which of) the following magazines and ezines could be considered reliable (and non-trivial), especially in regards to their analysis and criticism of lesbian culture:
kiden ( talk) 14:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Editor Hbent has been removing "photobucket references" from articles. This is what I stated on Hbent's talk page:
"Would you mind explaining why you made this edit? What policy on Wikipedia says that we cannot use photobucket as references? If Wikipedia does say that, then I am sure that the policy is in regards to photographs at photobucket due to the fact that photographs can be doctored.
My point is that photobucket is not the reference for those references you removed from the Todd Manning article. Those references are from valid soap opera magazines; the "photobucket references" are showing scanned articles from those magazines in which validate the article's text being stated. If you were going to remove all those references, the least you could have done is format the references so that they do not need urls.
I see that you have removed "photobucket references" from other articles as well. You should first discuss stuff like this over with other editors of the articles you are removing these from. There is no telling how many valid references you have removed from articles because of this.
I have reverted your edit to the Todd Manning article."
Of course...I would like clarification on this matter from editors here at the Noticeboard. Flyer22 ( talk) 05:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) There is some confusion here about the difference between copyrighted content and content that is a copyright violation. Linking to copyrighted content is fine, and so is using copyrighted content as a source. We wouldn't have much of an encyclopedia at all if you couldn't do those things. The problem here is linking to content that is in violation of copyright, specifically images that are being used by someone other than the copyright holder without the consent of that copyright holder. Magazine scans on photobucket are a perfect example of such a violation. Magazine scans elsewhere are trickier, but I would think that it can be presumed that scans (or interviews, or what have you) on an official site have probably been cleared.
Copyrighted content hosted on Wikipedia is only okay within limited circumstances, and those circumstances are policed here. I very much doubt that you could get away with uploading a scan of a copyrighted magazine article here because it would not qualify as fair use. I can't imagine that having the scan on photobucket would be any more legal than it would be here.
I asked on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions for someone with copyright expertise to weigh in here, and hopefully that will happen. hbent ( talk) 02:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I am attempting to show that an organization is not tax-exempt according to the United States Internal Revenue Service. The organization doesn't appear in Publication 78( a list of "all" tax-exampt organizaton), but may meet the guidelines for not having to be published in Publication 78. They do appear in the IRS Business Master File, which also has a list of tax-exempt organization. However, if you call the IRS Charities dept on the phone, give them the name or EIN of the organization, they will tell you that the organization has been tax-exempt since 2003. That is, however, the only information the I.R.S. can give over the phone because of "the status of the organization". I'd like to say something about the organization's tax-exempt status since I feel the organizations Wiki page misrepresents its tax-exempt status.
In other words, is saying "You can make a phone call to the IRS" a reliable source? Any suggestions?
Uwishiwazjohng ( talk) 21:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
This one web page is acting as source for a large percentage of Inter-Services Intelligence, an article about the ISI. I think the whole thing looks sketchy, but that may just be me. I'm open to comments. [62] CSHunt68 ( talk) 22:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Used in Packaging and labeling as discussed in Talk:Packaging_and_labeling#toxicsinpackaging.org_as_a_source. -- Ronz ( talk) 17:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
The Packaging and labeling article discusses environmental aspects of packaging. One of these is the need to keep toxic materials out of the package so, when it is recycled, burned, or landfilled, there will not be contamination. This subject has a citation which links it to the toxicsinpackaging.org website. Toxics in Packaging is a coalition of several US state governments for coordination of the issue and for its communication. It includes links to many state regulations. This is a reliable and unbiased source on toxics in packaging as it is the state governments providing the information. This is neither a controversial subject (it was 20 years ago) nor a controversial website. One WK editor, however, is challenging the suitability of this site for a refernece. See the packaging talk page for the discussion. Please review this and offer assistance. Thank you. Rlsheehan ( talk) 17:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Is this website the official MOD site for this unit of the TA. An IP has stated that it is a self published website by Gareth Baillie and not the official MOD site would the IP be correct or is it official thanks. If not official would its claims need to be taken with a pinch of salt. BigDunc Talk 09:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys, my removal of a reference on Total Chaos was contested, so I would like a second opinion. The link, [63], is a review of a game by someone with the handle "War Chicken", submitted to "Anugs's Homepage", which hosts "The Amiga Games Database". As far as I can tell, the database and its submissions are entirely handled by Angus Manwaring, and I'm unsure about his qualifications as "an established expert" (going by WP:SPS) Any opinions on this are appreciated. Marasmusine ( talk) 13:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This RS question is whether Stephen Hill, the cofounder of a notable niche music genre, "spacemusic", can be disqualified as a secondary source expert, and have his radio production company's website (= expert's book) reclassified with primary source usage restrictions (results in removal).
The radio production company is
Hearts of Space established 25 years ago (35 including the original Music From the Hearts of Space show on
KPFA). HoS was historically played on more than 250 USA public radio stations on a scale of 500. This
2004-01-11 San Francisco Chronicle description of Stephen Hill's expertise reads:
"Hill, who coined the term "spacemusic" more than 20 years ago, hosts the "Music From the Hearts of Space" music program, syndicated on 250 National Public Radio stations, including San Francisco's KALW 91.7 FM, which airs two hours of the program at 10 p.m. Sundays. In addition, Hill's Hearts of Space Web site (www.hos.com) provides streaming access to an archive of hundreds of hours of spacemusic artfully blended into one-hour programs combining ambient, electronic, world, New Age and classical music."
The claim as I understand it (maybe I don't), is that a justified primary source reclassification, along with other sources properly reclassified as primary, would cause a synthesis/OR violation in the article titled Space music. The further result would be that the cofounder's detailed analysis, opinions, and other website information would be mostly removed from the article about the genre he cofounded.
The campaigning editor says his most contentious objection is that the name of the genre is a "commercial entity's branding drive". Presumably, he objects strongly to a previously unnoticed form of commercial spam in the Wikipedia article, and a great wrong should be righted by minimizing it. If I correctly understand it, I can only describe this position as extremist.
Spacemusic genre is a case of limited circle fame. Its current USA public radio fans are thinly scattered, but dedicated to its support through public radio fund drives. Its niche music sales amount to less than 1% of the commercial market, so very little is written about spacemusic in major USA music publications dependent on commercial advertising.
(The rest of the 102
Space music sources to be considered for reclassification as primary, and then removed for synthesis/OR, should be handled separately to avoid noticeboard overload.)
Milo 15:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Just to be clear about the encyclopedia-margins deletionist effect of what you are both saying:
Stephen Hill and his Hearts of Space website were previously treated as expert-based secondary sources via WP:V( WP:SPS). The Wikipedia art/music reasoning has previously been that the founder of an art/music genre knows subjectively more about what he/she created than anyone else as a matter of expert opinion. You are changing that.
What a secondary source says can be combined in a point-by-point source-provable editorial analysis. In this case, since there are so few other mainstream sources, many or most of them are presently combined with Hill's previous secondary source expertise to write the article.
But a primary source has fewer rights in an article than a secondary source. What a primary source says cannot be combined with other sources for a standard article editorial analysis, even if every point made by article editors can be proved through analysis of the primary sources.
Art/music experts normally have secondary source rights under WP:V( WP:SPS). You are now removing Hill's secondary source rights, so you are in effect declaring that he is not an expert on the genre he founded. (Yes, you deny that, but the denial is cosmetic.) Since he is no longer an expert on his own work, his dominant presence in an article about his own creations constitutes undue weight, which can be removed by his opponents (and as already declared, will be removed by the campaigning editor).
The big names in creativity won't be affected at Wikipedia, but if one's creative work is notable, yet limited circle famous with few mainstream sources, this appears to be a significant deletionist change at the margins of Wikipedia. The effect is that a marginal creator's expertise is henceforth trumped by a marginal rival's expertise. I assume that hundreds of articles will eventually be affected as the art/music opponent class finds out they can now marginalize their rivals by de-experting and de-weighting them through primary sourcing.
Are you sure you want to go there? Milo 00:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
[Note: the article version as of the above date was Space Music 18:38, 14 November 2008.]
[Note: at this point the article was edited twice: Space Music 21:45, 17 November 2008 and Space music 21:46, 17 November 2008.]
←Let the record show:
This thread was again and again bloated with claims about non-sourcing issues. Since they were off-topic at this noticeboard, I ignored them. Now Semitransgenic yawns and claims to be attacked. Experienced editors will recognize these distractive ploys that herald a thread to be ended by gainsaying last-worders.
To summarize from the top post:
This RS question is whether Stephen Hill, the cofounder of a notable niche music genre, "spacemusic", can be disqualified as a secondary source expert, and have his radio production company's website (= expert's book) reclassified with primary source usage restrictions (results in removal).
The RS answers are:
- Stephen Hill is a notable expert as described under WP:V(WP:SPS). Hill's reliable secondary source expertise covers his writings and radio show including its website, archives and playlists.
- Hill's comments on his personal life, meaning those factors having an insubstantial connection to Hill's notable creative work, are reliable primary sources.
- Additionally, the 2004-01-11 San Francisco Chronicle article by Steve Sande, quoting Stephen Hill and others with analysis of this music, is an article that can be cited as a reliable source.
Milo 03:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Therefore: the SFC is wrong. Thanks for confirming this. Semitransgenic ( talk) 22:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I have an editor reverting edits/removing citations for BAM because they have never heard of it and because it is/was "a local niche magazine, not a reliable source". For those who may not know BAM was a California based music magazine for over two decades that was published in both a Northern and Southern California edition and also sponsored the yearly BAMMIES. It was as "local" as the NY Times is to New York City or to the LA Times is to Los Angeles. It was mainly about music but not specific to one style of form or even subject. "Frank Zappa - Interview from Hell" was only one cover story in it's history. At one point BAM merged with Seattle's Rocket ( "West Coast music magazines BAM and Seattle Rocket combine forces; now third-largest U.S. popular- music publication") and the BAMMIES were always a notable event in the Bay Area ( "Show Shouldn't Go On", "Bammies go one step further -- bronze plaques in the sidewalk", "Journey Induction into the BAMMIES Walk of Fame", "The Bay Area Music Awards", "ARTHUR M. SOHCOT Award", "Chris Isaak, Primus top Bammie ballot ;17th show honors Bay Area musicians on March 5" and "Nostalgia plays well at California Music Awards. Young bands win, but veterans steal show"). The overall issue here is when editors have never heard of something they sometimes remove a citation or information associated with it. A person outside of the industry may not have never heard of R&R, Pollstar, Entertainment Design or even Billboard because they are all, very clearly, "niche" publications yet they are all very good sources. Guitar For the Practicing Musician, Modern Drummer, Bass Player and Guitar Player Magazine may not be read by non musicians, however if someone started removing facts or information where any of these were cited as sources because they were "niche" publications it would be somewhat ludicrous. I don't live in Chicago but that does not mean I would discount an article on a Chicago musician who was featured in the Chicago Times, thusly included citations for that publications, because it was a "local" publication. For information about musicians that were playing in, lived in, and considered part of, the California scene a source such as BAM would a goldmine of information on certain "local" artists. Van Halen, Journey, Guns and Roses, RATT, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Quiet Riot, Carlos Santana, Frank Zappa, The Eagles and so many others were all covered at various times. So the question is, really, should a magazine that mainly covered the California music scene be considered a "a local niche magazine, not a reliable source"? Soundvisions1 ( talk) 13:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
It is kept by several libraries, so verifiability does not seem to be an issue. -- NE2 07:30, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
← To Jeandré Invoking Monty Python skits may be cute at first but this is getting ridiculous. With the Shaunna Hall link(s) (And even her own edits to the article) now you are saying that band members are not reliable sources for fact verification, so it makes me question this secret OTRS even more as it couldn't be from a band member. (Note that Self published sources can be, and are - all the time, used to verify certain facts, they should not be used to establish notability. However in this case that link is not "self" published by the subjects of the fact being verified as is not Wanda Day or Kara/Cara Crash saying "I was in Malibu Barbi", nor is it the source being used to establish notability of either musician so they can have their own stand alone article) Next you say, of an image gallery: "...this doesn't look like a reliable source at all, and doesn't even mention Crash which it's sourcing". Please note the following text that sets up the images: "When Rude Girl broke up, Sandy joined up with Heidi, Joann, and Kara from Missconception. They formed Malibu Barbi. While Leather was on the 12" recording, Melanie sang live and most other recordings. Later Lupe joined up with Kara and Joann, Industrial Rainforest. Pretty much, everyone local knew everyone" Kara = Cara. Clearly, because you feel BAM was a "a local niche magazine, not a reliable source", you also feel that because this photographer was a local San Francisco photographer these photos are not reliable sources. But I say it is now up to you to prove that these images are fake, along with any other sources you toss out as not being reliable. You appear to rely on "I have never heard it" put under the guise of a policy/guideline that you feel implies that if an editor has never heard of something than it could not be used as a source. This is an open challenge for Jeandré to now prove that this band did not exist and that the members who were in it over a several year period were never really in the band. I have done more than enough to verify the band existed and that both Kara/Cara Crash and Wanda Day were in the band. If you feel it is some hoax that prove it. Or just be 100% honest here and say "I have no clue about BAM, the music industry, the California music scene or the musicians that were part of it, are part of it or may be part it in the future" and we can move on. Soundvisions1 ( talk) 14:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Without getting into the topic-specific details of this long discussion, I can offer my outside view that BAM magazine is a generally reliable source for music-related information that it published during its 23-year existence. As was mentioned above in this section, the magazine had national notability and was widely respected. Unless there is conflicting information in other sources, I'd have no hesitation to use it as a source. If it published information that is disputed by other reliable sources, then both sources can be used, but with attribution for clarity. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 21:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd like an unbiased opinion on the reliability of these two books:
Edelman, E, Natural Healing for Schizophrenia, Borage Books, 3rd edition, 2001
Pfeiffer CC. Nutrition and Mental Illness: An Orthomolecular Approach to Balancing Body Chemistry. Healing Arts Press., 1988.
They form the basis for a couple of contentious articles. Thanks! Guyonthesubway ( talk) 16:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
"Healing Arts" is an imprint of Bear & Company, which is not a medical publisher as such. See [72].
"Borage Books" is a single book publisher with an obvious interest in pushing the one book. I doubt it qualifies as RS at all as a result. It links to "clinics" and the like which have a financial interest in the book as well. Collect ( talk) 16:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
A simple question, should a book review be used as evidence of what is in the book?
My reason for asking is that the Indian Rebellion of 1857 article contains details about a controversial book on the subject based on a Guardian newspaper review, not the book itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsloch ( talk • contribs)
Would someone please have a look at Iraq War? User:99.137.127.111 ( contributions, talk) and I are both up against 3RR on it: my preferred version; 99.137.127.111's preferred version;
99.137.127.111 is intent on: (A) placing reports of Bush being burned in effigy in the introduction of the article, which I believe is unwarranted by the current length of the article (206 KB!, but there is no noticeboard for long articles) and (B) using newspaper reports attributed to anonymous sources claiming that they request anonymity for no other reason than that they are not trusted to speak with the media in order to stir up dissent about the recently-ratified Status of Forces Agreement based on supposed rationales which are completely ungrounded in facts.
At what point does a source's reliability depend on the reliability of its underlying sources? I would argue that any source always depends directly on the reliability of its underlying sources, barring some underlying accidental situation, and that we should always consider the underlying reliability when making judgements about what to include in any articles, let alone space-limited articles.
Does anyone disagree? If you agree, please revert to my preferred version or some reasonable merge thereof. Thank you. Southern Command Stooge ( talk) 18:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The article also cited specialists who weren't barred by the government from speaking to media. Anyone who actually reads the articles will be able to tell this. Finally, the sources are attributed as anonymous in the article.-- 99.137.127.111 ( talk) 19:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)All three declined to speak on the record because the administration, which had planned to release the official English language text last week, has instead designated it "sensitive but unclassified."