This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
^^ Which should be obvious. I would, however, assume we're allowed to mention this POV on Wikipedia articles where it is relevant. Which, as such, seems like a fatal flaw in the tyranny-of-the-majority wording running around here lately. In b4 SlimVirgin! -- Kendrick7 talk 02:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Can we keep the personal comments out of this and someone explain clearly what the disagreement is? For what it's worth, I think the DUE/UNDUE section is (like many sections of these supposedly core policies) extremely badly phrased - possibly for the same reasons that Kendrick has in mind (though I'm not sure).-- Kotniski ( talk) 16:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Is the following statement in Measure (mathematics)#Generalizations, paragraph 4, lines 4 and 5, subject to NPOV guidelines and, in consequence, require citations to works that contain the different opinions: "The one that is homogeneous of degree 1 is a mysterious function called the 'mean width', a misnomer." I think this connotes the existence of two points of view, respectively, one that considers 'mean width' the appropriate name for a certain mathematical abstraction, and the counter-view that this is a misnomer. I think citations are needed to at least one source that uses the term, and to at least one source which states that this usage is a misnomer. If I am correct, what should be done? I posted "citations needed" several days ago. Michael P. Barnett ( talk) 01:04, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
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There is more of the same later in the Bourbaki article, which is very readable and accurate. The title of Felix Klein's 1908 landmark book Elementary Mathematics from an Advanced Standpoint connotes alternative viewpoints of particular mathematical topics. Articles about mathematics include the scope of mathematics as a whole and of many of its branches, how it should be taught and the mechanisms by which it is learned, how it should be written, its chronology and evolution, biographies of mathematicians, and its sociology and societal influence. All of these are subject to many different views. In particular, the style of presentation is addressed, not only with reference to the writing of WK articles, but in a much wider context. For example, in 1995, committees of the Mathematics and Chemistry sections of the National Academy of Sciences wrote a report, published by the National Research Council on "Mathematical Challenges from Theoretical/Computational Chemistry". Chapter 5 was titled "Cultural issues and barriers to interdisciplinary work". The need was stressed for mathematicians, who want to interact with the rest of the world, to overcome a tendency to present information in ways that fitted their aesthetics and priority of ideas, that put these into a context that was unnecessarily advanced. As a safeguard against this tendency, I think WK articles on topics that involve mathematics should be kept open to editors with expert knowledge of relevant material, who are not mathematicians, without the "mathematicians" acting as a very strong filter to the general editorship. Throwing the matter to personal authority seems alien to the avowed WK ethos. Who is an "excellent mathematician", and how this is assessed, is irrelevant. I will follow up the "misnomer" sentence as you suggested. But I thought I would take this opportunity to raise the matters discussed above here, in the hope that these are close enough to POV that they will not offend, and get me routed to appropriate environment if considered worthwile pursuing. |
Sorry, I find it rude to interrupt your dialogue - a bit of an exaggeration on this forum - but what part did m galileo play in the theory of relativity which seems to have been ignored here? newton and einstein both reference his work in this context so i'm confused as to the ignorance of this wiki post. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oscarfaragher ( talk • contribs) 20:47, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
I find it extremely ironic that this article is decidedly not written from a NPOV. It even seems to patronize and belittle those who might have objections to the policy. I realize that obviously this is meant mostly as an instructional article, but there isn't really anywhere else on Wikipedia where the concept of NPOV which has a distinct meaning from neutrality (philosophy) can be explicated. Theshibboleth ( talk) 00:34, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
What if something remains controversial, even after the science is settled? Around 85% of Americans, for example, disagree with all (or part) of Evolution, and there's a poll of scientists (including those in fields other than biology) indicating that only 95% of them support it.
Can there at least be a sentence or two in the Evolution article like this?
If that is okay, then how about other controversies like Global warming? Is there an established, acceptable way to describe the reasons that various scientists and other people have given for disagreeing with the Anthropogenic Global Warming theory (AGW)? I'd like to know what the policy is, so that I don't waste people's time when I find an interesting quote - and someone like Vsmith immediately deletes it on the grounds that the author of the quote is too far removed from mainstream science, or something like that.
Let's also keep in mind that the ArbCom made a ruling that we can't delete well-referenced information simply because it promotes a POV.
The point of NPOV is that when anything is controversial, we as editors and contributors scrupulously avoid taking sides. We might say that 95% of scientists favor something (as in evolution), but we must not call evolution a "fact" (as evolution advocates do). Rather, we should explain why evolution advocates say that "evolution is a fact." (see 2nd paragraph of Evolution as theory and fact)
Likewise, for AGW there have been several polls indicating that 5% or more of scientists question the whole theory or some aspect of it. So, I ask you, is AGW controversial enough for us to cover it as a controversy and to avoid giving either side an air of legitimacy or "validity" (see Wikipedia:equal validity)?
If not, then what's the proper why to indicate "fringe views" held by 5% or more of scientists on AGW? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 00:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
This section is taken out of context. Objectivity is not black and white, but rather in the median in which we write is given on the majority. I purpose that this section is re-written to be more inclusive of what is considered objective and what is not. SuperX9 ( talk) 18:57, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
There is an ongoing RFC at Talk:Santorum (neologism)#Proposal to rename.2C redirect.2C and merge content that may be of interest to editors here. Dreadstar ☥ 18:08, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Once in a while on a subject matter, a whole book is written by experts. Other times, just a paragraph about a subject may be written in an article that is not really about a subject. Obviously the book specializing towards the subject takes precedence most of the time. But I am trying to find the right wiki-guideline for this. There used to be one such as "Biologist writing on astro-physics is not as reliable as astro-physicist writing on Physics".. Although exceptions may always be found, this seems to be generally true. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 01:25, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
[Copied over from the WP:V discussion page! Some responses over there]
We have a TLDR problem with the 'rules', and just starting an embryonic project to try to get the concept across in a sinlge-sentence 'The simplest explanation' thing. Please see this thread for background stuff.
The idea is to get (hopefully soon) a template-wossname for all the rules pages, so that anyone with a slightly less comprehensive vocabulary can understand stuff really easily. We have a problem where some of our stuff is written so collegiately that it's just hard for some people to get the point. So ..... could we possibly, pretty please, have the simplest explanation back at the top :o) ?
If some people are having trouble understanding the concept of our rules, we need to communicate better - at a level that's easy for anyone to understand, even if their vocabulary isn't as extensive as ours. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 07:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
I tweaked the nutshell box so that anyone at all should be able to understand what we mean. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:43, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
We're making some headway over at WP:V with the discussion on the nutshell re-wroding / additional wording - can we please do the same over here, to get something along the lines of "Don't take sides" into it? At the moment, I'm kinda tempted just to go back in and re-edit as this discussion seems to have died, but I'd like some input on exactly how to get that ultra-simplicity in there without it being immediately reverted! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 04:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Postpostmod ( talk) 11:46, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Aha! I haven't got around to addressing the piss-easy overview of RS yet! That, yes, is darned tricky. Trying to explain why the Daily Telegraph might be OK, but the Daily Mail less so .... eeek!
Mind you, I'd still very much like to get the "Don't take sides, explain the sides, fairly" thing in our nutshell here. The undue-weight aspect comes under the nutshell word of "fairly"; we give each side it's fair coverage. Can we please make some headway with getting the nutshell into 'easy English'? (sorry, I know in advance that's going to come over wrongly!) It doesn't have to cover everything - just that first step on Wittgenstein's ladder. :o) (Re-writing the entriety of all the policy pages is gonna take ... errrrmmm .... a little longer .... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 07:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
This was what I tried to implement, but got quickly reverted. I honestly do think that it makes it absolutely dead plain; can't see anything wrong with that one at all. I do have to wonder whether sometimes people are 'against change' - even if it's a change for the better in terms of universal understandability. Don't be afraid of change! I'm going to change it back to that one; if someone wants to revert it again, it would be nice to have a really well-reasoned argument here on talk as to why it's not as good as the original. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 06:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
This discussion caused me to review DUE here, and I see that it relies on the RS guideline. I think that it should instead rely directly on V:SOURCES.
Looking for more mentions of RS here, I see that guideline invoked in Pseudoscience and related fringe theories and in the Good research subsection of DUE (that subsection reads more like something out of an essay than out of a policy).
I may be being too pedantic here, but I'm worried about slippery slopes. I think the discussion I mentioned is an example of treading along the verge of a slippery slope in this regard -- using the RS guideline to disqualify a source generally considered to be reliable as being too far afield from other sources in one particular instance to be given due weight -- excluding material because WP editors believe the material to be not true. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:32, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm confused: where in WP:DUE does it link to the RS guideline? The link for "reliable sources" that I can see goes to WP:V anyway.-- Kotniski ( talk) 11:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
I notice that there has been some back-and-forth about the nutshell recently, and I think more talk here is necessary. Much of the discussion took place over a holiday weekend (in the US) when editors (at least me!) were not watching closely, and I am not convinced that we really have consensus for the version that is on the page at the moment I'm writing this comment. I tend to agree with LK that we really don't have consensus for the change. I appreciate that Pesky wants to make it user-friendly, but I'm unconvinced that the older version failed in that regard, and I certainly don't think that Sven's added sentence has been adequately vetted. After all, we are discussing here one of the most important policies on the project, and you can go to the bank with the proposition that users will look for ways to Wikilawyer their personal interpretations of the wording of the nutshell. We need very strong consensus for these kinds of changes, and I do not believe that we have them now. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 15:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
There is a dispute as to whether this WP:NPOV page and the WP:NOTHOWTO page follow the guidelines in WP:MOSBOLD or if they are even required to follow WP:MOSBOLD (which I think they are) and can therefore be used as examples of WP:MOSBOLD applied in Wiki use. I content that WP:NPOV and WP:NOTHOWTO (along with other WIKI project page articles) are following the WP:MOSBOLD guidelines of bolding the first term/phrase of section items which are in list form and are being defined. (WP:MOSBOLD states definition lists can be bolded, and there are other exceptions to the guideline.) For examples, please see WP:NPOV section titled "Explanation of the neutral point of view" where bulletpointed listed terms/phrases are bolded and then further defined. Please go see many examples of bolded lists on WP:NOTHOWTOO such as: "Wikipedia is not a directory" section and "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal" section. These terms/phrases are obviously being bolded to improve readability and improve easy visual scanning of the article, therefore, does not violate WP:MOSBOLD, either in spirit or letter of the guideline. I would like some thoughtful comments on the questions I have raised. -- RedEyedCajun ( talk) 00:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I undid this addition:
I don't think it expresses a point particularly clearly. It seems to conflate a general interest in brevity with the relativistic concerns of balancing views from different sources. Can you explain what you intended? Ocaasi t | c 17:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I am thinking of something else but I thought I recalled a long time ago that this guideline included something about letting the facts speak for themselves. Regardless, I think it is valuable to include an explicit statement about this, perhaps in the Impartial tone section. It is frequently the case that editors include valid, referenced facts but present them in inappropriate places with a clear agenda in doing so. One example of this is presenting a controversy where only the opinions of one side are supported by the experts on the subject. Editors sometimes see this as justification for simply characterizing the controversy from the outset as one side that knows what it is talking about and one that doesn't (essentially a misinterpretation of the [[WP::UNDUE]] policy). Obviously in such cases it is simply better to present the two sets of opinions, present who are the primary supporters of each side, and then get into what the experts have to say. Perhaps another way to put that is not to conflate the facts in a way that presupposes a judgment. -- 192.88.165.35 ( talk) 19:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
An RfC has been launched to measure community support for requiring the explicit checking of DYK nominations for compliance with basic WP policies—including NPOV policy—and to improve the management of the nominations page through the introduction of a time-limit after which a nomination that does not meet requirements is archived. Tony (talk) 04:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
It has recently been rewritten to make it more compatible with the current editing practices on Wikipedia. It now says that NPOV amounts to sticking to SPOV on science articles. Count Iblis ( talk) 16:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm disappointed, but not surprised, by the hair-splitting that resulted in a strange change to {{ primary sources}}, which no longer asks for independent/third-party sources. I have asked that this recent change be reverted. Also, the original recommendation of that template has now been duplicated to the {{ third-party}} template, another bewildering achievement of WP:BURO. I've asked that this one be deleted. Whatever tweaks in wording are needed on the original template can surely be done without this fork. FuFoFuEd ( talk) 23:23, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
These two discussions are both about how we decide what terms to use based on neutrality, in case anyone is interesting in reading, or contributing to, the discussions.
-- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
"Widespread views" is often WP:WEASEL and there are important caveats to its use. To avoid getting into that discussion here, I propose striking the entire clause beginning with "or". Thoughts? Brmull ( talk) 23:42, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
(od) Frequently people use "this is the majority view" when all they mean is "this is the view I like." Or "that source is fringe" when they really mean "I do not like that source." Pretty much the same as a person in a bull session saying "according to my calculations" when one knows well the figure about to be cited is made up on the spot. Wikipedia has no way of preventing such "arguments from el toro" and I would suggest it is a major source of really badly written articles. Ascription of views to specific authors is almost always wisest, without trying to assert that the view of the other editor must be "fringe." If one finds a reliable source asseting "fringe" then that is far preferable to Wikipedia editors making the assertion. That said, I regard the BLP problem as being intertwined - too often people add defamatory or contentious material to a BLP with the belief that of something has been printed about someone, it is automatically reasonable to include it in BLP articles. To which the adage "paper never refused ink, and electronic paper is no more discriminating about what it allows to be written" still applies. Indeed, I suggest that such disputes account for more than half the BLP/N discussions. "If I were king of the forest" (note tht I am making no claims to royalty here <g>) I would insist all BLPs and related articles stick as much as possible to fact, and avoid all opinions, especially ones where one has "majority" and "fringe" views about a person or topic to be disputed. Revolutionary enough? Collect ( talk) 19:55, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
The findings of the BBC Trust - Review of impartiality and accuracy of the BBC's coverage of science includes among its main points, summarised in its press release;
When considering 'due impartiality' under the new Editorial Guidelines, the BBC needs to continue to be careful when reporting on science to make a distinction between an opinion and a fact. When there is a consensus of opinion on scientific matters, providing an opposite view without consideration of "due weight" can lead to 'false balance', meaning that viewers might perceive an issue to be more controversial than it actually is. This does not mean that scientists cannot be questioned or challenged, but that their contributions must be properly scrutinised. Including an opposite view may well be appropriate, but the BBC must clearly communicate the degree of credibility that the view carries.
A Trustee's comment discusses how "in some instances the 'presentational style of coverage has continued to suggest that a real scientific disagreement was present long after a consensus had been reached'" and some areas involved. This bears an obvious resemblance to weight policy, and could be cited or reviewed for possible improvements to the wording of the policy. . . dave souza, talk 12:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I think there has been enough time for any objections to have been raised, and hearing none, I'm going to go ahead and add it. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 18:20, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't know if I'm beating a WP:dead horse here, but I'm hoping that there's still some life in it. I'll mention again that, IMO, excluding a source-supported assertion from a source which is considered generally reliabile for the topic based on an editorial judgement of specific falsity of the assertion (and consequent unreliability of the source for that specific assertion) is at least as much of a bad thing ™ as including a source-supported assertion based on an editorial judgement of specific truth of the assertion. See past discussion here. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
IMO trying to use wp:npov to resolve issues of clearly false information is a cop-out. First it is uninvokable where there is not a balancing situation. E.G., in my whimsical-but-analog-of-true-life "three eyes" example, only becomes operative if there is a debate going on regarding how many eyes he has, which would not occur. Finally, when the rubber meets the road, it becomes toothless. In real life in a battle situation there is no way to implement "prevalence in RS's".
Second, please note that my example is a common third type.
North8000 ( talk) 12:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Now that I have a clearer understanding of Boracay Bill's view, I disagree with it and would oppose edits based on it or policy changes based on it. I also notice that the due weight principle and the general believe among editors that a particular statement in a reliable source is false (where the belief comes from source-based research) will usually lead to the same conclusion: that a particular claim should be omitted.
Jc3s5h (
talk) 09:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Wtmitchell, I have a hard time understanding you when you make statements like "I believe, however, that WP editors should not be making judgments of truth vs. falsity at all...." Perhaps you are thinking that "judgement" implies some special mode of thinking, believing, or reasoning, which excludes trivial decisions? As far as I'm concerned, every decision is a judgement. If a reliable publisher publisher issues errata and I decide to apply the errata before quoting the source, that is a judgement of falsity. If I'm listening to a news report and the news anchor says "Yemen, excuse me, I meant Syria" and I decide the reference to Yemen was wrong, that's a judgement of falsity. Jc3s5h ( talk) 12:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
In reality, such judgments (for exclusion of material) are a foundation for creation of the articles that work. And there is no policy/guideline which says that such is wrong, except in cases where these a wp:nopv balancing situation involved. BTW, there is a case of this which is even more prevalent than excluding false material. There are fields where just uncritically putting in stuff from sources results in a confused, uninformative mess, and it requires an editor with a true knowledge of the topic to select the material from the sources which is informative. Usually these are topics where the true knowledge exists only in the 30,000 ft. view, and there is a lack of quality sources that give that view, or where that part is a needle-in-a-haystack in the RS's work. These work because they are uncontentious. Once it gets contentious, this process breaks down. There are various widely accepted chants which are NOT policy which get chanted at the people trying to use that discretion to select/exclude material.
Again, the above is discussing only situations where there is not an wp:npov balancing situation in play; in that case, operative provisions of wp:npov kick in and then what I said above does not apply. North8000 ( talk) 13:39, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
comment: In a situation where there are multiple verifiable sources for data, and one of the sources is an outlier to the other sources, it only seems reasonable to use figures from the non-outlier source. It's not clear how else one might resolve data which are not in agreement. I suppose one could make an appeal to the methodology used and prefer sources which are more rigorous to those which are incidental. aprock ( talk) 19:33, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Question: When does a view represented by a single reliable source merit inclusion? Always? Sometimes? Never?
Detail: At issue is whether or not the issue of due weight can universally be settled by a citing a single reliable source.
Background:In a discussion about sourcing and WP:UNDUE on Talk:Public broadcasting, Miradre ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and I ( Aprock ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are having trouble coming to an agreement on interpreting what constitutes undue weight. Part of the problem is that the policy seems to be somewhat inconsistent. Putting aside the specific sourcing issues at the article, having a clear interpretation of the policy would be useful in moving forward.
After I noted the policy language: "For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic"
Miradre noted the policy language: "Once it has been presented and discussed in reliable sources, it may be appropriately included."
The broader arc of WP:UNDUE seems clear to me; A view represented by a single source counts for less than an extremely small minority, and therefore should not be included as it is undue. Miradre is arguing that presentation of a view in a single reliable source is all that is required for inclusion. One might argue that "appropriately" is an important modifier here, but the language is imprecise enough that clarification is needed.
Input from outside editors invited. aprock ( talk) 16:52, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
n.b.: this RfC is about clarifying WP:UNDUE policy, not WP:PRIMARY policy. aprock ( talk) 22:07, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Discussion
Regarding primary sources it should be noted that they are not prohibited. Wikipedia's science articles cite an numerous primary sources. Disallowing them would require rewriting numerous articles and would require a great deal of discussion by the community before such a dramatic action. Miradre ( talk) 22:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
We can look at this another way. Primary sources are not disallowed. Our sciences articles cites many primary sources. Disallowing them would require rewriting numerous articles and would require a great deal of discussion by the community before such a dramatic action. But aprock's interpretation of policy would in fact disallow all primary sources in Wikipedia. Whenever a primary source is used, then someone can claim without presenting any evidence whatsoever that the academic view is an extreme minority view and therefore delete the academic source. The same claim could be applied to for example many newspaper articles (that do not include an actual poll of current views or similar material). This is in effect would be an enormous change of Wikipedia policy. Miradre ( talk) 01:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
UNDUE is pretty straightforward, but applying it can be tricky. If a single good source says X and a wide range of sources say not-X, then giving X parity with not-X amounts to giving it undue weight. If the ratio is 10:1, then you need to devote several times as much space to not-X as to X. If it's 100:1, you might want to leave it out altogether. But this only works if the difference is fairly stark and you can build a consensus of involved editors. And, when it comes down to it, it requires a certain amount of OR. Ideally, you should go with what secondary sources say about the relative prominence of X and not-X, since it reduces the need for editors to evaluate and weigh the prominence of different sources. This is not an option when secondary sources are lacking. However, if secondary sources that address the minority viewpoint (X, in this case) are lacking, it calls into question whether X is really notable. Guettarda ( talk) 20:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Claim of 60% of Sedan/ Ethiopia being J1 rather than E Haplogroup are not factual based on papers cited and are contradicted by others. I realize original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy. However, image captions are subject to this policy no less than statements in the body of the article. "*etc..." is not a justification of many parts of this image, including referenced assumptions for Central Asia and the Caucasus outside of Dagestan. The Horn of Africa where the highest densities is shown for J1 depict a density of over 60% in Sudan and Ethiopia.
the paragroup E-M78*. E-V65 and E-V13 were completely absent in the samples analyzed, whereas the other subclades were relatively common. E-V12* accounts for 19.3% and is widely distributed among Sudanese. E-V32 (51.8%) is by far the most common subclades among Sudanese. It has the highest frequency among populations of western Sudan and Beja. E-V22 accounts for 27.2% and its highest frequency appears to be among Fulani, but it is also common in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups. http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/94d/Hassan%202008%20Y-Chromosome%20Variation%20Among%20Sudanese.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384897/figure/FG1/
http://www.human-evol.cam.ac.uk/Members/Lahr/pubs/AHG-65-01.pdf
http://www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea/uasal/DNAWWW/pdfs/Underhill2000.pdf
given in Underhill et al. 2000." Figure 2 relates to a total found, not the specific "Central Asia."
(2); Asia: 3 Japanese IV, V, VII; 2 Han Chinese VII, 1 Taiwan Atayal VII, 1 Taiwan Ami, VII, 2 Cambodian VI, VII; Pakistan: 2 Hunza VI, IX; 2 Pathan VI, VII; 1 Brahui VIII; 1 Baloochi VI; 3 Sindhi III, VI, VIII; Central Asia: 2 Arab IX; 1 Uzbek IX; 1 Kazak V; MidEast: 1 Druze VI; Pacific: 2 New Guinean V, VIII; 2 Bougainville Islanders VIII; 2 Australian VI, X: America: 1 Brazil Surui, 1 Brazil Karatina, 1 Columbian, 1 Mayan all X. We genotyped an additional 1,009 chromosomes, representing 21 geographic regions, by DHPLC for all markers other than those on the terminal branches of the phylogeny. We genotyped the latter only in individuals from the haplogroup to which those markers belonged. This hierarchic genotyping protocol was necessitated by the limited amounts of genomic DNA available for most samples.regions, by DHPLC for all markers other than those on the terminal branches of the phylogeny.
The majority of them are J2[M172]. Those who are not are under M89. The 17 with M89 alone can be J* without being J1. *There is no mention in the methods in any of the four listed of a retesting of these samples. Since F* is the parent of J*, it is possible, all of the 17 samples claimed to be J1 are J* rather than J1. *The issue of J1 in the Caucasus is even more evident as they have been mostly F* or G* without the subclade of J. I can go into further issues, but just one inaccuracy in the map statements and depiction should be enough JohnLloydScharf ( talk) 23:29, 20 August 2011 (UTC) |
Currently there is an RfC at Talk:Distribution_of_wealth#rfc_C3D38F4, which also deals with the problem handling undue content. I am uninvolved in this discussion about using charts from a single primary source. Again, the issue of WP:UNDUE is central to the RfC. A clearer and more precise policy for what constitutes undue would certainly help in situations like this, either to clearly indicate that such a paper is undue, or that such a paper clearly may not be undue for specific reasons. aprock ( talk) 15:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
I have seen a problem in articles where popular topics have drawn significant criticism. Editor's are tempted to add sourced facts that neutralize published criticism without providing sources that make the connection between those facts and the criticism. Editors think they are following OR guidelines by providing reliable sources to back up the facts but even when counter arguments are based on reliable sources it constitutes OR if we don't provide sources that make that counter argument with the specific intention of addressing the criticism. I think it would be helpful to address this in the guidelines, either here or in the OR page (or both). Joja lozzo 21:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
The present version states This applies not only to article text, but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, and all other material as well.. I was wondering if there's any specific articulation on how exactly NPOV policy is to be applied to these other formats, in particular external links and categories. I am asking because recently I've noticed a bit of an uptick in "POV pushing by category inclusion/exclusion" - in other words, instances where users try to disparage a subject by including their articles in "nasty" categories.
Do sources, or anything like that, have to be provided for an article to be included in a particular category, given that this may be controversial? What about in the case of BLPs? Volunteer Marek 12:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm curious about Wiki policy on dates--I've found a mix of both Christian-relative dating convention and standardized neutral dating convention. I've also encountered some people who deliberately go from page to page, changing all CE and BCE to AD and BC. Personally, I consider the former to be neutral and the latter non-neutral (although one can hardly be accused of deliberate bias when growing up with this style as the only option). In some instances, such as articles pertaining to Orthodox Judaism, the usage of Christian referential dating may well be offensive to other users who are likely to search for or edit these articles (as many, if not all, Orthodox Jews have a proscription against any references to Christianity, Jesus or even a cross). Other modern encyclopedias tend to stick with the non-Christian convention in their more recent editions. As such, NPOV position should be to prefer standard non-Christian date references. Let me put it in terms that anyone can understand--since, personally, I do not hold any beliefs that would make Jesus or Jesus Christ or some other named individual or deity from 2011 years ago "My Lord", I find the AD and BC designations inappropriate in all contexts other than those on the inner workings of Christian churches (with the exception of titles or quotations taken from other sources). This does not mean that I would accuse anyone who prefers Christian-relative dating convention a "bigot", but I would certainly prefer neutral nomenclature. On the other hand, in professional circles, someone who insists on such nomenclature may well be considered bigoted and unprofessional. Since some US conservatives actually consider the AD and BC labels integral to their ideology, repeated and pervasive changes of dating nomenclature may indicate persistent bias. Alex.deWitte ( talk) 05:11, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
On Talk:Robert P. George, a number of editors are claiming that a given source should be discounted as having a conflict of interest because he is gay. Where is the best place to look in existing policy to once and for all dismiss this argument? Kansan ( talk) 14:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
The source is WP:V: "Sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view; indeed many reliable sources are not neutral." But as Johnuniq said this is not the right forum for this question. If more discussion is necessar use WP:NPOVN. I'm not sure whether Wifione's comment is applicable to your question. Sullivan's book is not a primary source. Brmull ( talk) 02:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
This is a reopening of a continuing discussion regarding how to interpret undue policy. Here are links to the previous discussions: [12], [13].
general question: When does a view represented by a single reliable source merit inclusion?
specific example: The particular question revolves around the use of this source: Immigration and the Economic Status of African-American Men. The source in question is novel research published in an academic journal. Does the existence of this research article demonstrate sufficient weight to merit discussion in Immigration to the United States?
My interpretation of WP:UNDUE hinges on the third item in the bulleted list: If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article.. Other editors have made the argument that "UNDUE refers only to giving exaggerated emphasis on a minority viewpoint". As currently written, the policy is not very clear on this nuance, and I think the policy should be clarified in this regard so that this sort of confusion can be avoided in the future.
I invite opinions and comments on the specific issue, but more importantly, I would like feedback on how to work towards making the policy clearer. Thank you. aprock ( talk) 20:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Why does this clause say in the intro say "try:" " and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three" They are "core." Try, therefore, is an inappropriate request. I move to strike "try." Alanscottwalker ( talk) 14:32, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
This section of the policy refers to “prominent experts”; is there a definition for this term? For example, is Time magazine considered to be a “prominent expert” in the example given in WP:PEA? Uniplex ( talk) 19:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I draw your attention to the RFC at WT:Verifiability#RFC - Compromise proposal re first sentence proposing changes to WP:Verifiability. As this RfC relates to a core policy (one that is deeply inter-connected with WP:NPOV) it is hoped that we can receive comments from a wide spectrum of the community (and especially those who regularly work on this page). Please swing by, read the proposal and accompanying rational, and leave a comment. Blueboar ( talk) 12:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
There is an RfC here on whether to remove from the lead of Wikipedia:Verifiability that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." The RfC is likely to close in a few days, so if you want to comment please do so soonish. Many thanks, SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 23:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Note: the link above in the first sentence should read that the RfC can be found at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#RFC - Compromise proposal re first sentence Unscintillating ( talk) 19:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I would like to check where and why the recommendation is given here that "Criticism of X" should be replaced with "Societal views on X" in the cause of NPOV (hoping that I'm not opening a very nasty can of worms here).
My question and concern came about in a debate on the talk page of "the article formerly known as criticism of intellectual property" ;-)
The article has been renamed following the guidelines set here into societal views on intellectual property. I can see why "criticism" (with the usual understanding of the word) is considered too negative to include in a title, but is "societal" actually better? What has "society" actually to do with "the issues at issue"?
I saw a very appropriate use of societal in the article societal attitudes towards abortion since here it is quite explicit that different societies' views on abortion are being compared. The "societies" in question being both continental/regional, national and religious.
But is it useful to frame every debate on a "contested concept" in terms of "society"? Going by the definitions and connotations connected to "society" in such articles as society, Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft and imagined communities, it seems unclear to me why "societal" is considered fit as a general "stock title phrase" both in terms of NPOV and sheer helpfulness. Does it then actually bring more confusion than NPOV and thereby lose in coherence what it may have gained in NPOV?
Using societal seems to imply either the views/discussion of a topic within one particular society, or the views of different societies on the topic. But what then of cases such as intellectual property, where the debate(s) do(es) not conform to either of these scenarios? Are "we" then creating a false sense of coherence and unity in terms of the forum for and form of (a) debate(s) that seem(s) more to represent a widely dispersed set of individuals, groups, organisations etc.?
I do not have a ready replacement "descriptor" in hand to substitute for societal, but I would like to hear whether the choice of that particular word was the process of a wider debate, and what were the reasons for using it in the example.
Why is WP:Relevant redirected to NPOV? I changed the redirect to REV. WCCasey ( talk) 07:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I do not fully understand how this requirement can be implemented in reality. What if some users decided not to follow this policy? Consider a situation when some group of users opposes to change of the content under a pretext that the content is properly sourced, and totally ignores the fact that the sources they use are the subject of serious criticism. What is the mechanism that would allow us to change such non-neutral content if any RfCs give ca 50:50 votes pro and contra (which is usually interpreted by uninvolved admins as "no consensus for change")?-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 02:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
What we write in an article depends on many factors, such as (1) How many reliable sources are there (2) Who are the reliable sources. That determines whether we can state a bold-faced fact eg. (a) the Moon is made of blue cheese, or whether we have to attribute the fact, eg. (b) some Mexican Indians believe that the Moon is made of cheese, [14] We may well have reliable source supporting two sides of an argument, eg. sources supporting phlogiston, and of course, those that do not. Policy should be flexible enough to (a) take these views into account (b) allow editors to assess sources, (c) allows editors to decide how sources are described and attributed. A single reliable source does not make decide the truth (and that's a fact) -- Iantresman ( talk) 09:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I am not sure that the discussion of some concrete article belongs to this talk page. It should be moved either to WP:NPOVN or to the article's talk page. My question was much more general: I have a feeling that there are many articles in Wikipedia that are the subject of interest of just few users. In this situation, a relative majority of the users may decide to ignore some sources and present some statement as facts (despite justified objections of others). Since such articles are not a subject to interest of broad WP community, going to appropriate noticeboards have almost zero effect. As a result, it is quite possible to create (and maintain) totally biased articles of that type. I see no tools in our neutrality policy that would allow good faith users to fix such a situation.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 16:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
This touches on the three gigantic gaping holes in this policy:
Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 20:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
(Per question a few lines up)North8000 ( talk) 14:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles on contentious topics generally remain in a permanent state of conflict and instability. WP:npov is not currently sufficient to significantly resolve these. Certain fixes would require changes in other policies, especially source and sourcing criteria. But others can be helped by improvements in wp:npov:
The most frequent forms of POV'ing slips "under the radar" of wp:npov, i.e. it gives little direction or guidance for those areas. Partial solution: Include something like the below in NPOV. Merely recognizing, understanding and spotlighting these other forms of pov'ing will help the situation.
A common assumption is that most POV questions on articles arise where there are conflicting viewpoints on a particular question, or point made in the article. This is mistaken; a minority of pov issues are of this type. Here are three more types, with an example of each:
The biggest hole in wp:npov is that it basically only addresses cases where the material espouses opposing viewpoints on a particular topic. Material which is put in for effect but which does not espouse a viewpoint slips under the wp:npov radar. The only section that slightly addresses the latter is wp:undue, and, as written, it is ineffective in this area.
This that wp:undue is basically toothless in disputes because its main guideline for implementation (preponderance in sources) is really not practically usable. One solution would be to incorporate other metrics into the guideline. The objectivity and knowledgeably of the sources with respect to the topic should be added to the raw preponderance criteria. Also, include directness--of-relevance as a criteria to be taken into consideration.
Wp:undue does not provide sufficient guidance to resolve contentious articles and generally fails on these. Adding relevancy into its guidance tools would help this situation. One place to start would be to say that when there is a dispute, one condition for inclusion of material is that it be directly ABOUT (not just be related to) the subject of the article.
WP:npov seems best designed only for the classic POV case, where there is a statement which purports to be objective fact in dispute. But the far more common case is where POV warriors seek to leave an impression on the reader via the quantity and nature of content which leaves the desired impression. This may be:
An example of the "on the topic" type would be if Rush Limbaugh announced that Barack Obama is the worst president in the last 100 years, and many newspapers reported (simply) that he made this announcement. And then an editor puts a section on this into the general Barack Obama article. Technically, the editor is not inserting/citing/having to argue the "worst president in 100 years" statement, they are just saying that Limbaugh said this. They just want the very real impact and impression of the presence of "worst president" type words in the article. A second example is that if John Smith, a person who is a second cousin of Obama is convicted of child molesting, and the conviction is covered by several newspapers in a matter-of-fact manner. And an editor places a section into the general Obama article regarding that topic. They make no other argument that needs defending, they just want the impact of child molestation related material in the Obama article and it's juxtaposition with Obama material. Most would say that these should not be in the article. And, if there were a large amount of such material in the article, most would (intuitively) say that such POV's the article. But policies and guidelines provide little guidance regarding this. The sourcing is not only on wp:solid ground, the coverage really can't be questioned, as it was matter-of-fact regarding these matters. Ditto for the "objectivity" of the text put into the article, it is simply matter of fact overage of Limbaugh's statement and the 2nd cousin's conviction.
Probably the policy/guideline most looked at for guidance on this would be wp:undue. But it is oriented towards covering opposing views on a particular statement. In these cases, the "statements" are just what was said in the speech, and the facts of the conviction. It gives guidance only on coverages of two sides of an issue. But there is no debated "issue" in this material, as it is a statement of facts regarding what Limbaugh said and of the conviction and of the relation of the child molester to Obama. Beyond that, wp:npov says what can be interpreted as "must include" for these statements.
For contentious inclusions, create a standard that the material must be directly about the subject of the article. Not just related to, but directly about. Under this analysis, the coverage of Limbaugh's speech is most directly about Limbaugh's speech, not Obama. And the child molesting material is most directly about John Smith, not Obama.
Section titles tilt this inclusion of information in an article. They influence the article to include a greater amount of material defined by the title. Example: John Smith kicked a dog once, a long time ago, and also runs an animal shelter. In the John Smith article an editor creates a "Controversies" section. This tilts the article towards inclusion of a greater amount of negative material on John Smith. It might tend to give a section on the dog-kicking incident legitimacy for inclusion which it might not have otherwise had. And it could be used to prevent another editor from including the dog sheltering material to provide balance on the topic of Smith's treatment of animals. The removing editor can say that the dog sheltering material was removed because it is "not a controversy".
For contentious situations, section headings may be created only for material that could pass the wp:undue test for inclusion in the article without the section heading. Further, only material that can remain in the article without having it's suitability "propped up" by a section heading remains. Basically, this means that material must "stand on its own two feet" regarding justification, without such being "propped up" by the section title.
North8000 ( talk) 11:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Agree that the identified holes in the policy are serious issues. The proposed solution sounds good. It seems to be related to WP:SYNTHESIS policy. GreyHood Talk 19:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Whereas all what you write is correct (or almost correct), I think the most serious problem not in the policy but in the ways it is being implemented.
Firstly, the policy states that the principles it is based upon cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. However, it is unclear for me how can it be implemented in actuality. Let's consider your first example. A group of users (A, B, C) added the words: "Smith critics noted that the XYZ study concluded that allegations of homosexual child molestation by priests is 9 times more common than allegations of heterosexual child by priests." after the sentence "Priest John Smith said that he is a homosexual." A user D objected against that citing the policy standard that the material must be directly about the subject of the article (let's assume for a moment that your proposal has been added to the policy). Of course, had the users A, B, and C been good faith users, they would accept this argument. However, if they decided to object (for instance, citing
WP:V), the added text will stay, because there was no consensus for removal of properly sourced material. Obviously, the attempt to directly remove this text will fail due to 3RR, and an appeal to admins will (the most probably) lead just to an advise to start an RfC. However, what if no other users express interest to the article about Smith? The change will stay, because the result of RfC will be "no consensus for removal".
The events may develop differently. Some admin may interfere and revert the change. However, the users A, B, and C may object pretending that that is just a content dispute, and admins cannot use administrative tools to interfere into content disputes. As a result, the current policy clause "The principles upon which this policy is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus" appears to be toothless against civil POV pushers in low traffic articles.
I do not see how your above proposal resolves this issue.
I have other comments, but I suggest to finish with this one first.--
Paul Siebert (
talk) 04:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I see the problem as follows. For low traffic articles where some group of POV-pushers acting in concert is active, there is no ways to resolve neutrality issues: if the POV-pushers constitute a majority on the talk page, any decision meet formal
WP:CONSENSUS criteria (I assume POV-pushers are civil); RfC, due to minimal or zero external input cannot resolve this situation; NPOVN is also ineffective, because usually the discussion there involves same users. And, more importantly, no administrative actions can be taken in this case, because immediately after starting the analysis of content for neutrality the admins become a party of the dispute. Therefore, the tools are needed that would allow admins to analyse arguments put forward during the the neutrality disputes without becoming a party of it.
A possible solution may be as follows. When some user expresses a concern about neutrality of some article's statement (for example, an undue weight has been given to some non-mainstream source) he is supposed to provide a reliable non-fringe secondary source that explicitly criticizes this particular source for errors, revisionism, or for the tendency to tendency to overreach and overstate his case. As soon as such a source has been provided, the article's statement should be deemed non-neutral, and needs to be changed accordingly. To prevent the change of the content, its advocates must present well sourced refutation of the source that criticize the content they defend. Failure to provide such a refutation automatically means that the disputed content must be modified.--
Paul Siebert (
talk) 16:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
My comment and suggestions are more about the structural dichotomy that exists. If, in the top level Obama article you want to write that "Obama is a bad president" (i.e. the statement of the insertion is disputed) then wp:npov in all of it's intended glory kicks in. If, in that top level article, you want to to put an uncontested but irrelevant fact in (Omama's third cousin is a convicted child molester) for negative effect, then npov is silent on the issue because the statement of the insertion is not contested. North8000 ( talk) 17:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
There's the rub Paul - banning discussion of 1 core policy when discussing an issue ostensibly about another is a major change. The "three core policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable". It's also something open to obvious abuse and frankly builds an assumption of bad faith into policy which is the opposite of what we do. When dealing with ppl acting in bad faith whether civilly or not changing core policy to 'combat' them is at the expense of its utility to the rest of the community. Sledgehammer's & nuts come to mind. Moving that Wikipedia:Advocacy become policy as part of Category:Wikipedia behavioral guidelines would make more sense IMHO-- Cailil talk 14:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
@ Cailil. Your " banning discussion of 1 core policy when discussing an issue ostensibly about another is a major change" is much stronger statement than my initial proposal was. My proposal was quite concrete: "during the discussion of the neutrality of certain statement, the arguments that this statement should stay because it is properly sources should not be taken into account." That does not rule out the arguments such as "The criticism of this viewpoint found in the source X cannot be taken seriously because the source is unreliable" (or similar arguments), because it is impossible to consider each policy separately from each other. In other words, I never proposed total ban, I just proposed to ban a certain type of arguments that very frequently appears during the NPOV discussions and RfCs, and resort to the WP:V-type argument to prevail in a dispute that is obviously about WP:NPOV. -- Paul Siebert ( talk) 15:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
^^ Which should be obvious. I would, however, assume we're allowed to mention this POV on Wikipedia articles where it is relevant. Which, as such, seems like a fatal flaw in the tyranny-of-the-majority wording running around here lately. In b4 SlimVirgin! -- Kendrick7 talk 02:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Can we keep the personal comments out of this and someone explain clearly what the disagreement is? For what it's worth, I think the DUE/UNDUE section is (like many sections of these supposedly core policies) extremely badly phrased - possibly for the same reasons that Kendrick has in mind (though I'm not sure).-- Kotniski ( talk) 16:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Is the following statement in Measure (mathematics)#Generalizations, paragraph 4, lines 4 and 5, subject to NPOV guidelines and, in consequence, require citations to works that contain the different opinions: "The one that is homogeneous of degree 1 is a mysterious function called the 'mean width', a misnomer." I think this connotes the existence of two points of view, respectively, one that considers 'mean width' the appropriate name for a certain mathematical abstraction, and the counter-view that this is a misnomer. I think citations are needed to at least one source that uses the term, and to at least one source which states that this usage is a misnomer. If I am correct, what should be done? I posted "citations needed" several days ago. Michael P. Barnett ( talk) 01:04, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
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There is more of the same later in the Bourbaki article, which is very readable and accurate. The title of Felix Klein's 1908 landmark book Elementary Mathematics from an Advanced Standpoint connotes alternative viewpoints of particular mathematical topics. Articles about mathematics include the scope of mathematics as a whole and of many of its branches, how it should be taught and the mechanisms by which it is learned, how it should be written, its chronology and evolution, biographies of mathematicians, and its sociology and societal influence. All of these are subject to many different views. In particular, the style of presentation is addressed, not only with reference to the writing of WK articles, but in a much wider context. For example, in 1995, committees of the Mathematics and Chemistry sections of the National Academy of Sciences wrote a report, published by the National Research Council on "Mathematical Challenges from Theoretical/Computational Chemistry". Chapter 5 was titled "Cultural issues and barriers to interdisciplinary work". The need was stressed for mathematicians, who want to interact with the rest of the world, to overcome a tendency to present information in ways that fitted their aesthetics and priority of ideas, that put these into a context that was unnecessarily advanced. As a safeguard against this tendency, I think WK articles on topics that involve mathematics should be kept open to editors with expert knowledge of relevant material, who are not mathematicians, without the "mathematicians" acting as a very strong filter to the general editorship. Throwing the matter to personal authority seems alien to the avowed WK ethos. Who is an "excellent mathematician", and how this is assessed, is irrelevant. I will follow up the "misnomer" sentence as you suggested. But I thought I would take this opportunity to raise the matters discussed above here, in the hope that these are close enough to POV that they will not offend, and get me routed to appropriate environment if considered worthwile pursuing. |
Sorry, I find it rude to interrupt your dialogue - a bit of an exaggeration on this forum - but what part did m galileo play in the theory of relativity which seems to have been ignored here? newton and einstein both reference his work in this context so i'm confused as to the ignorance of this wiki post. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oscarfaragher ( talk • contribs) 20:47, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
I find it extremely ironic that this article is decidedly not written from a NPOV. It even seems to patronize and belittle those who might have objections to the policy. I realize that obviously this is meant mostly as an instructional article, but there isn't really anywhere else on Wikipedia where the concept of NPOV which has a distinct meaning from neutrality (philosophy) can be explicated. Theshibboleth ( talk) 00:34, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
What if something remains controversial, even after the science is settled? Around 85% of Americans, for example, disagree with all (or part) of Evolution, and there's a poll of scientists (including those in fields other than biology) indicating that only 95% of them support it.
Can there at least be a sentence or two in the Evolution article like this?
If that is okay, then how about other controversies like Global warming? Is there an established, acceptable way to describe the reasons that various scientists and other people have given for disagreeing with the Anthropogenic Global Warming theory (AGW)? I'd like to know what the policy is, so that I don't waste people's time when I find an interesting quote - and someone like Vsmith immediately deletes it on the grounds that the author of the quote is too far removed from mainstream science, or something like that.
Let's also keep in mind that the ArbCom made a ruling that we can't delete well-referenced information simply because it promotes a POV.
The point of NPOV is that when anything is controversial, we as editors and contributors scrupulously avoid taking sides. We might say that 95% of scientists favor something (as in evolution), but we must not call evolution a "fact" (as evolution advocates do). Rather, we should explain why evolution advocates say that "evolution is a fact." (see 2nd paragraph of Evolution as theory and fact)
Likewise, for AGW there have been several polls indicating that 5% or more of scientists question the whole theory or some aspect of it. So, I ask you, is AGW controversial enough for us to cover it as a controversy and to avoid giving either side an air of legitimacy or "validity" (see Wikipedia:equal validity)?
If not, then what's the proper why to indicate "fringe views" held by 5% or more of scientists on AGW? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 00:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
This section is taken out of context. Objectivity is not black and white, but rather in the median in which we write is given on the majority. I purpose that this section is re-written to be more inclusive of what is considered objective and what is not. SuperX9 ( talk) 18:57, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
There is an ongoing RFC at Talk:Santorum (neologism)#Proposal to rename.2C redirect.2C and merge content that may be of interest to editors here. Dreadstar ☥ 18:08, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Once in a while on a subject matter, a whole book is written by experts. Other times, just a paragraph about a subject may be written in an article that is not really about a subject. Obviously the book specializing towards the subject takes precedence most of the time. But I am trying to find the right wiki-guideline for this. There used to be one such as "Biologist writing on astro-physics is not as reliable as astro-physicist writing on Physics".. Although exceptions may always be found, this seems to be generally true. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 01:25, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
[Copied over from the WP:V discussion page! Some responses over there]
We have a TLDR problem with the 'rules', and just starting an embryonic project to try to get the concept across in a sinlge-sentence 'The simplest explanation' thing. Please see this thread for background stuff.
The idea is to get (hopefully soon) a template-wossname for all the rules pages, so that anyone with a slightly less comprehensive vocabulary can understand stuff really easily. We have a problem where some of our stuff is written so collegiately that it's just hard for some people to get the point. So ..... could we possibly, pretty please, have the simplest explanation back at the top :o) ?
If some people are having trouble understanding the concept of our rules, we need to communicate better - at a level that's easy for anyone to understand, even if their vocabulary isn't as extensive as ours. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 07:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
I tweaked the nutshell box so that anyone at all should be able to understand what we mean. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:43, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
We're making some headway over at WP:V with the discussion on the nutshell re-wroding / additional wording - can we please do the same over here, to get something along the lines of "Don't take sides" into it? At the moment, I'm kinda tempted just to go back in and re-edit as this discussion seems to have died, but I'd like some input on exactly how to get that ultra-simplicity in there without it being immediately reverted! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 04:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Postpostmod ( talk) 11:46, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Aha! I haven't got around to addressing the piss-easy overview of RS yet! That, yes, is darned tricky. Trying to explain why the Daily Telegraph might be OK, but the Daily Mail less so .... eeek!
Mind you, I'd still very much like to get the "Don't take sides, explain the sides, fairly" thing in our nutshell here. The undue-weight aspect comes under the nutshell word of "fairly"; we give each side it's fair coverage. Can we please make some headway with getting the nutshell into 'easy English'? (sorry, I know in advance that's going to come over wrongly!) It doesn't have to cover everything - just that first step on Wittgenstein's ladder. :o) (Re-writing the entriety of all the policy pages is gonna take ... errrrmmm .... a little longer .... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 07:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
This was what I tried to implement, but got quickly reverted. I honestly do think that it makes it absolutely dead plain; can't see anything wrong with that one at all. I do have to wonder whether sometimes people are 'against change' - even if it's a change for the better in terms of universal understandability. Don't be afraid of change! I'm going to change it back to that one; if someone wants to revert it again, it would be nice to have a really well-reasoned argument here on talk as to why it's not as good as the original. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 06:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
This discussion caused me to review DUE here, and I see that it relies on the RS guideline. I think that it should instead rely directly on V:SOURCES.
Looking for more mentions of RS here, I see that guideline invoked in Pseudoscience and related fringe theories and in the Good research subsection of DUE (that subsection reads more like something out of an essay than out of a policy).
I may be being too pedantic here, but I'm worried about slippery slopes. I think the discussion I mentioned is an example of treading along the verge of a slippery slope in this regard -- using the RS guideline to disqualify a source generally considered to be reliable as being too far afield from other sources in one particular instance to be given due weight -- excluding material because WP editors believe the material to be not true. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:32, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm confused: where in WP:DUE does it link to the RS guideline? The link for "reliable sources" that I can see goes to WP:V anyway.-- Kotniski ( talk) 11:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
I notice that there has been some back-and-forth about the nutshell recently, and I think more talk here is necessary. Much of the discussion took place over a holiday weekend (in the US) when editors (at least me!) were not watching closely, and I am not convinced that we really have consensus for the version that is on the page at the moment I'm writing this comment. I tend to agree with LK that we really don't have consensus for the change. I appreciate that Pesky wants to make it user-friendly, but I'm unconvinced that the older version failed in that regard, and I certainly don't think that Sven's added sentence has been adequately vetted. After all, we are discussing here one of the most important policies on the project, and you can go to the bank with the proposition that users will look for ways to Wikilawyer their personal interpretations of the wording of the nutshell. We need very strong consensus for these kinds of changes, and I do not believe that we have them now. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 15:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
There is a dispute as to whether this WP:NPOV page and the WP:NOTHOWTO page follow the guidelines in WP:MOSBOLD or if they are even required to follow WP:MOSBOLD (which I think they are) and can therefore be used as examples of WP:MOSBOLD applied in Wiki use. I content that WP:NPOV and WP:NOTHOWTO (along with other WIKI project page articles) are following the WP:MOSBOLD guidelines of bolding the first term/phrase of section items which are in list form and are being defined. (WP:MOSBOLD states definition lists can be bolded, and there are other exceptions to the guideline.) For examples, please see WP:NPOV section titled "Explanation of the neutral point of view" where bulletpointed listed terms/phrases are bolded and then further defined. Please go see many examples of bolded lists on WP:NOTHOWTOO such as: "Wikipedia is not a directory" section and "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal" section. These terms/phrases are obviously being bolded to improve readability and improve easy visual scanning of the article, therefore, does not violate WP:MOSBOLD, either in spirit or letter of the guideline. I would like some thoughtful comments on the questions I have raised. -- RedEyedCajun ( talk) 00:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I undid this addition:
I don't think it expresses a point particularly clearly. It seems to conflate a general interest in brevity with the relativistic concerns of balancing views from different sources. Can you explain what you intended? Ocaasi t | c 17:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I am thinking of something else but I thought I recalled a long time ago that this guideline included something about letting the facts speak for themselves. Regardless, I think it is valuable to include an explicit statement about this, perhaps in the Impartial tone section. It is frequently the case that editors include valid, referenced facts but present them in inappropriate places with a clear agenda in doing so. One example of this is presenting a controversy where only the opinions of one side are supported by the experts on the subject. Editors sometimes see this as justification for simply characterizing the controversy from the outset as one side that knows what it is talking about and one that doesn't (essentially a misinterpretation of the [[WP::UNDUE]] policy). Obviously in such cases it is simply better to present the two sets of opinions, present who are the primary supporters of each side, and then get into what the experts have to say. Perhaps another way to put that is not to conflate the facts in a way that presupposes a judgment. -- 192.88.165.35 ( talk) 19:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
An RfC has been launched to measure community support for requiring the explicit checking of DYK nominations for compliance with basic WP policies—including NPOV policy—and to improve the management of the nominations page through the introduction of a time-limit after which a nomination that does not meet requirements is archived. Tony (talk) 04:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
It has recently been rewritten to make it more compatible with the current editing practices on Wikipedia. It now says that NPOV amounts to sticking to SPOV on science articles. Count Iblis ( talk) 16:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm disappointed, but not surprised, by the hair-splitting that resulted in a strange change to {{ primary sources}}, which no longer asks for independent/third-party sources. I have asked that this recent change be reverted. Also, the original recommendation of that template has now been duplicated to the {{ third-party}} template, another bewildering achievement of WP:BURO. I've asked that this one be deleted. Whatever tweaks in wording are needed on the original template can surely be done without this fork. FuFoFuEd ( talk) 23:23, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
These two discussions are both about how we decide what terms to use based on neutrality, in case anyone is interesting in reading, or contributing to, the discussions.
-- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
"Widespread views" is often WP:WEASEL and there are important caveats to its use. To avoid getting into that discussion here, I propose striking the entire clause beginning with "or". Thoughts? Brmull ( talk) 23:42, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
(od) Frequently people use "this is the majority view" when all they mean is "this is the view I like." Or "that source is fringe" when they really mean "I do not like that source." Pretty much the same as a person in a bull session saying "according to my calculations" when one knows well the figure about to be cited is made up on the spot. Wikipedia has no way of preventing such "arguments from el toro" and I would suggest it is a major source of really badly written articles. Ascription of views to specific authors is almost always wisest, without trying to assert that the view of the other editor must be "fringe." If one finds a reliable source asseting "fringe" then that is far preferable to Wikipedia editors making the assertion. That said, I regard the BLP problem as being intertwined - too often people add defamatory or contentious material to a BLP with the belief that of something has been printed about someone, it is automatically reasonable to include it in BLP articles. To which the adage "paper never refused ink, and electronic paper is no more discriminating about what it allows to be written" still applies. Indeed, I suggest that such disputes account for more than half the BLP/N discussions. "If I were king of the forest" (note tht I am making no claims to royalty here <g>) I would insist all BLPs and related articles stick as much as possible to fact, and avoid all opinions, especially ones where one has "majority" and "fringe" views about a person or topic to be disputed. Revolutionary enough? Collect ( talk) 19:55, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
The findings of the BBC Trust - Review of impartiality and accuracy of the BBC's coverage of science includes among its main points, summarised in its press release;
When considering 'due impartiality' under the new Editorial Guidelines, the BBC needs to continue to be careful when reporting on science to make a distinction between an opinion and a fact. When there is a consensus of opinion on scientific matters, providing an opposite view without consideration of "due weight" can lead to 'false balance', meaning that viewers might perceive an issue to be more controversial than it actually is. This does not mean that scientists cannot be questioned or challenged, but that their contributions must be properly scrutinised. Including an opposite view may well be appropriate, but the BBC must clearly communicate the degree of credibility that the view carries.
A Trustee's comment discusses how "in some instances the 'presentational style of coverage has continued to suggest that a real scientific disagreement was present long after a consensus had been reached'" and some areas involved. This bears an obvious resemblance to weight policy, and could be cited or reviewed for possible improvements to the wording of the policy. . . dave souza, talk 12:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I think there has been enough time for any objections to have been raised, and hearing none, I'm going to go ahead and add it. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 18:20, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't know if I'm beating a WP:dead horse here, but I'm hoping that there's still some life in it. I'll mention again that, IMO, excluding a source-supported assertion from a source which is considered generally reliabile for the topic based on an editorial judgement of specific falsity of the assertion (and consequent unreliability of the source for that specific assertion) is at least as much of a bad thing ™ as including a source-supported assertion based on an editorial judgement of specific truth of the assertion. See past discussion here. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
IMO trying to use wp:npov to resolve issues of clearly false information is a cop-out. First it is uninvokable where there is not a balancing situation. E.G., in my whimsical-but-analog-of-true-life "three eyes" example, only becomes operative if there is a debate going on regarding how many eyes he has, which would not occur. Finally, when the rubber meets the road, it becomes toothless. In real life in a battle situation there is no way to implement "prevalence in RS's".
Second, please note that my example is a common third type.
North8000 ( talk) 12:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Now that I have a clearer understanding of Boracay Bill's view, I disagree with it and would oppose edits based on it or policy changes based on it. I also notice that the due weight principle and the general believe among editors that a particular statement in a reliable source is false (where the belief comes from source-based research) will usually lead to the same conclusion: that a particular claim should be omitted.
Jc3s5h (
talk) 09:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Wtmitchell, I have a hard time understanding you when you make statements like "I believe, however, that WP editors should not be making judgments of truth vs. falsity at all...." Perhaps you are thinking that "judgement" implies some special mode of thinking, believing, or reasoning, which excludes trivial decisions? As far as I'm concerned, every decision is a judgement. If a reliable publisher publisher issues errata and I decide to apply the errata before quoting the source, that is a judgement of falsity. If I'm listening to a news report and the news anchor says "Yemen, excuse me, I meant Syria" and I decide the reference to Yemen was wrong, that's a judgement of falsity. Jc3s5h ( talk) 12:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
In reality, such judgments (for exclusion of material) are a foundation for creation of the articles that work. And there is no policy/guideline which says that such is wrong, except in cases where these a wp:nopv balancing situation involved. BTW, there is a case of this which is even more prevalent than excluding false material. There are fields where just uncritically putting in stuff from sources results in a confused, uninformative mess, and it requires an editor with a true knowledge of the topic to select the material from the sources which is informative. Usually these are topics where the true knowledge exists only in the 30,000 ft. view, and there is a lack of quality sources that give that view, or where that part is a needle-in-a-haystack in the RS's work. These work because they are uncontentious. Once it gets contentious, this process breaks down. There are various widely accepted chants which are NOT policy which get chanted at the people trying to use that discretion to select/exclude material.
Again, the above is discussing only situations where there is not an wp:npov balancing situation in play; in that case, operative provisions of wp:npov kick in and then what I said above does not apply. North8000 ( talk) 13:39, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
comment: In a situation where there are multiple verifiable sources for data, and one of the sources is an outlier to the other sources, it only seems reasonable to use figures from the non-outlier source. It's not clear how else one might resolve data which are not in agreement. I suppose one could make an appeal to the methodology used and prefer sources which are more rigorous to those which are incidental. aprock ( talk) 19:33, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Question: When does a view represented by a single reliable source merit inclusion? Always? Sometimes? Never?
Detail: At issue is whether or not the issue of due weight can universally be settled by a citing a single reliable source.
Background:In a discussion about sourcing and WP:UNDUE on Talk:Public broadcasting, Miradre ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and I ( Aprock ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are having trouble coming to an agreement on interpreting what constitutes undue weight. Part of the problem is that the policy seems to be somewhat inconsistent. Putting aside the specific sourcing issues at the article, having a clear interpretation of the policy would be useful in moving forward.
After I noted the policy language: "For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic"
Miradre noted the policy language: "Once it has been presented and discussed in reliable sources, it may be appropriately included."
The broader arc of WP:UNDUE seems clear to me; A view represented by a single source counts for less than an extremely small minority, and therefore should not be included as it is undue. Miradre is arguing that presentation of a view in a single reliable source is all that is required for inclusion. One might argue that "appropriately" is an important modifier here, but the language is imprecise enough that clarification is needed.
Input from outside editors invited. aprock ( talk) 16:52, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
n.b.: this RfC is about clarifying WP:UNDUE policy, not WP:PRIMARY policy. aprock ( talk) 22:07, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Discussion
Regarding primary sources it should be noted that they are not prohibited. Wikipedia's science articles cite an numerous primary sources. Disallowing them would require rewriting numerous articles and would require a great deal of discussion by the community before such a dramatic action. Miradre ( talk) 22:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
We can look at this another way. Primary sources are not disallowed. Our sciences articles cites many primary sources. Disallowing them would require rewriting numerous articles and would require a great deal of discussion by the community before such a dramatic action. But aprock's interpretation of policy would in fact disallow all primary sources in Wikipedia. Whenever a primary source is used, then someone can claim without presenting any evidence whatsoever that the academic view is an extreme minority view and therefore delete the academic source. The same claim could be applied to for example many newspaper articles (that do not include an actual poll of current views or similar material). This is in effect would be an enormous change of Wikipedia policy. Miradre ( talk) 01:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
UNDUE is pretty straightforward, but applying it can be tricky. If a single good source says X and a wide range of sources say not-X, then giving X parity with not-X amounts to giving it undue weight. If the ratio is 10:1, then you need to devote several times as much space to not-X as to X. If it's 100:1, you might want to leave it out altogether. But this only works if the difference is fairly stark and you can build a consensus of involved editors. And, when it comes down to it, it requires a certain amount of OR. Ideally, you should go with what secondary sources say about the relative prominence of X and not-X, since it reduces the need for editors to evaluate and weigh the prominence of different sources. This is not an option when secondary sources are lacking. However, if secondary sources that address the minority viewpoint (X, in this case) are lacking, it calls into question whether X is really notable. Guettarda ( talk) 20:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Claim of 60% of Sedan/ Ethiopia being J1 rather than E Haplogroup are not factual based on papers cited and are contradicted by others. I realize original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy. However, image captions are subject to this policy no less than statements in the body of the article. "*etc..." is not a justification of many parts of this image, including referenced assumptions for Central Asia and the Caucasus outside of Dagestan. The Horn of Africa where the highest densities is shown for J1 depict a density of over 60% in Sudan and Ethiopia.
the paragroup E-M78*. E-V65 and E-V13 were completely absent in the samples analyzed, whereas the other subclades were relatively common. E-V12* accounts for 19.3% and is widely distributed among Sudanese. E-V32 (51.8%) is by far the most common subclades among Sudanese. It has the highest frequency among populations of western Sudan and Beja. E-V22 accounts for 27.2% and its highest frequency appears to be among Fulani, but it is also common in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups. http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/94d/Hassan%202008%20Y-Chromosome%20Variation%20Among%20Sudanese.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384897/figure/FG1/
http://www.human-evol.cam.ac.uk/Members/Lahr/pubs/AHG-65-01.pdf
http://www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea/uasal/DNAWWW/pdfs/Underhill2000.pdf
given in Underhill et al. 2000." Figure 2 relates to a total found, not the specific "Central Asia."
(2); Asia: 3 Japanese IV, V, VII; 2 Han Chinese VII, 1 Taiwan Atayal VII, 1 Taiwan Ami, VII, 2 Cambodian VI, VII; Pakistan: 2 Hunza VI, IX; 2 Pathan VI, VII; 1 Brahui VIII; 1 Baloochi VI; 3 Sindhi III, VI, VIII; Central Asia: 2 Arab IX; 1 Uzbek IX; 1 Kazak V; MidEast: 1 Druze VI; Pacific: 2 New Guinean V, VIII; 2 Bougainville Islanders VIII; 2 Australian VI, X: America: 1 Brazil Surui, 1 Brazil Karatina, 1 Columbian, 1 Mayan all X. We genotyped an additional 1,009 chromosomes, representing 21 geographic regions, by DHPLC for all markers other than those on the terminal branches of the phylogeny. We genotyped the latter only in individuals from the haplogroup to which those markers belonged. This hierarchic genotyping protocol was necessitated by the limited amounts of genomic DNA available for most samples.regions, by DHPLC for all markers other than those on the terminal branches of the phylogeny.
The majority of them are J2[M172]. Those who are not are under M89. The 17 with M89 alone can be J* without being J1. *There is no mention in the methods in any of the four listed of a retesting of these samples. Since F* is the parent of J*, it is possible, all of the 17 samples claimed to be J1 are J* rather than J1. *The issue of J1 in the Caucasus is even more evident as they have been mostly F* or G* without the subclade of J. I can go into further issues, but just one inaccuracy in the map statements and depiction should be enough JohnLloydScharf ( talk) 23:29, 20 August 2011 (UTC) |
Currently there is an RfC at Talk:Distribution_of_wealth#rfc_C3D38F4, which also deals with the problem handling undue content. I am uninvolved in this discussion about using charts from a single primary source. Again, the issue of WP:UNDUE is central to the RfC. A clearer and more precise policy for what constitutes undue would certainly help in situations like this, either to clearly indicate that such a paper is undue, or that such a paper clearly may not be undue for specific reasons. aprock ( talk) 15:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
I have seen a problem in articles where popular topics have drawn significant criticism. Editor's are tempted to add sourced facts that neutralize published criticism without providing sources that make the connection between those facts and the criticism. Editors think they are following OR guidelines by providing reliable sources to back up the facts but even when counter arguments are based on reliable sources it constitutes OR if we don't provide sources that make that counter argument with the specific intention of addressing the criticism. I think it would be helpful to address this in the guidelines, either here or in the OR page (or both). Joja lozzo 21:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
The present version states This applies not only to article text, but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, and all other material as well.. I was wondering if there's any specific articulation on how exactly NPOV policy is to be applied to these other formats, in particular external links and categories. I am asking because recently I've noticed a bit of an uptick in "POV pushing by category inclusion/exclusion" - in other words, instances where users try to disparage a subject by including their articles in "nasty" categories.
Do sources, or anything like that, have to be provided for an article to be included in a particular category, given that this may be controversial? What about in the case of BLPs? Volunteer Marek 12:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm curious about Wiki policy on dates--I've found a mix of both Christian-relative dating convention and standardized neutral dating convention. I've also encountered some people who deliberately go from page to page, changing all CE and BCE to AD and BC. Personally, I consider the former to be neutral and the latter non-neutral (although one can hardly be accused of deliberate bias when growing up with this style as the only option). In some instances, such as articles pertaining to Orthodox Judaism, the usage of Christian referential dating may well be offensive to other users who are likely to search for or edit these articles (as many, if not all, Orthodox Jews have a proscription against any references to Christianity, Jesus or even a cross). Other modern encyclopedias tend to stick with the non-Christian convention in their more recent editions. As such, NPOV position should be to prefer standard non-Christian date references. Let me put it in terms that anyone can understand--since, personally, I do not hold any beliefs that would make Jesus or Jesus Christ or some other named individual or deity from 2011 years ago "My Lord", I find the AD and BC designations inappropriate in all contexts other than those on the inner workings of Christian churches (with the exception of titles or quotations taken from other sources). This does not mean that I would accuse anyone who prefers Christian-relative dating convention a "bigot", but I would certainly prefer neutral nomenclature. On the other hand, in professional circles, someone who insists on such nomenclature may well be considered bigoted and unprofessional. Since some US conservatives actually consider the AD and BC labels integral to their ideology, repeated and pervasive changes of dating nomenclature may indicate persistent bias. Alex.deWitte ( talk) 05:11, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
On Talk:Robert P. George, a number of editors are claiming that a given source should be discounted as having a conflict of interest because he is gay. Where is the best place to look in existing policy to once and for all dismiss this argument? Kansan ( talk) 14:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
The source is WP:V: "Sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view; indeed many reliable sources are not neutral." But as Johnuniq said this is not the right forum for this question. If more discussion is necessar use WP:NPOVN. I'm not sure whether Wifione's comment is applicable to your question. Sullivan's book is not a primary source. Brmull ( talk) 02:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
This is a reopening of a continuing discussion regarding how to interpret undue policy. Here are links to the previous discussions: [12], [13].
general question: When does a view represented by a single reliable source merit inclusion?
specific example: The particular question revolves around the use of this source: Immigration and the Economic Status of African-American Men. The source in question is novel research published in an academic journal. Does the existence of this research article demonstrate sufficient weight to merit discussion in Immigration to the United States?
My interpretation of WP:UNDUE hinges on the third item in the bulleted list: If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article.. Other editors have made the argument that "UNDUE refers only to giving exaggerated emphasis on a minority viewpoint". As currently written, the policy is not very clear on this nuance, and I think the policy should be clarified in this regard so that this sort of confusion can be avoided in the future.
I invite opinions and comments on the specific issue, but more importantly, I would like feedback on how to work towards making the policy clearer. Thank you. aprock ( talk) 20:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Why does this clause say in the intro say "try:" " and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three" They are "core." Try, therefore, is an inappropriate request. I move to strike "try." Alanscottwalker ( talk) 14:32, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
This section of the policy refers to “prominent experts”; is there a definition for this term? For example, is Time magazine considered to be a “prominent expert” in the example given in WP:PEA? Uniplex ( talk) 19:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I draw your attention to the RFC at WT:Verifiability#RFC - Compromise proposal re first sentence proposing changes to WP:Verifiability. As this RfC relates to a core policy (one that is deeply inter-connected with WP:NPOV) it is hoped that we can receive comments from a wide spectrum of the community (and especially those who regularly work on this page). Please swing by, read the proposal and accompanying rational, and leave a comment. Blueboar ( talk) 12:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
There is an RfC here on whether to remove from the lead of Wikipedia:Verifiability that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." The RfC is likely to close in a few days, so if you want to comment please do so soonish. Many thanks, SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 23:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Note: the link above in the first sentence should read that the RfC can be found at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#RFC - Compromise proposal re first sentence Unscintillating ( talk) 19:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I would like to check where and why the recommendation is given here that "Criticism of X" should be replaced with "Societal views on X" in the cause of NPOV (hoping that I'm not opening a very nasty can of worms here).
My question and concern came about in a debate on the talk page of "the article formerly known as criticism of intellectual property" ;-)
The article has been renamed following the guidelines set here into societal views on intellectual property. I can see why "criticism" (with the usual understanding of the word) is considered too negative to include in a title, but is "societal" actually better? What has "society" actually to do with "the issues at issue"?
I saw a very appropriate use of societal in the article societal attitudes towards abortion since here it is quite explicit that different societies' views on abortion are being compared. The "societies" in question being both continental/regional, national and religious.
But is it useful to frame every debate on a "contested concept" in terms of "society"? Going by the definitions and connotations connected to "society" in such articles as society, Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft and imagined communities, it seems unclear to me why "societal" is considered fit as a general "stock title phrase" both in terms of NPOV and sheer helpfulness. Does it then actually bring more confusion than NPOV and thereby lose in coherence what it may have gained in NPOV?
Using societal seems to imply either the views/discussion of a topic within one particular society, or the views of different societies on the topic. But what then of cases such as intellectual property, where the debate(s) do(es) not conform to either of these scenarios? Are "we" then creating a false sense of coherence and unity in terms of the forum for and form of (a) debate(s) that seem(s) more to represent a widely dispersed set of individuals, groups, organisations etc.?
I do not have a ready replacement "descriptor" in hand to substitute for societal, but I would like to hear whether the choice of that particular word was the process of a wider debate, and what were the reasons for using it in the example.
Why is WP:Relevant redirected to NPOV? I changed the redirect to REV. WCCasey ( talk) 07:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I do not fully understand how this requirement can be implemented in reality. What if some users decided not to follow this policy? Consider a situation when some group of users opposes to change of the content under a pretext that the content is properly sourced, and totally ignores the fact that the sources they use are the subject of serious criticism. What is the mechanism that would allow us to change such non-neutral content if any RfCs give ca 50:50 votes pro and contra (which is usually interpreted by uninvolved admins as "no consensus for change")?-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 02:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
What we write in an article depends on many factors, such as (1) How many reliable sources are there (2) Who are the reliable sources. That determines whether we can state a bold-faced fact eg. (a) the Moon is made of blue cheese, or whether we have to attribute the fact, eg. (b) some Mexican Indians believe that the Moon is made of cheese, [14] We may well have reliable source supporting two sides of an argument, eg. sources supporting phlogiston, and of course, those that do not. Policy should be flexible enough to (a) take these views into account (b) allow editors to assess sources, (c) allows editors to decide how sources are described and attributed. A single reliable source does not make decide the truth (and that's a fact) -- Iantresman ( talk) 09:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I am not sure that the discussion of some concrete article belongs to this talk page. It should be moved either to WP:NPOVN or to the article's talk page. My question was much more general: I have a feeling that there are many articles in Wikipedia that are the subject of interest of just few users. In this situation, a relative majority of the users may decide to ignore some sources and present some statement as facts (despite justified objections of others). Since such articles are not a subject to interest of broad WP community, going to appropriate noticeboards have almost zero effect. As a result, it is quite possible to create (and maintain) totally biased articles of that type. I see no tools in our neutrality policy that would allow good faith users to fix such a situation.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 16:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
This touches on the three gigantic gaping holes in this policy:
Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 20:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
(Per question a few lines up)North8000 ( talk) 14:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles on contentious topics generally remain in a permanent state of conflict and instability. WP:npov is not currently sufficient to significantly resolve these. Certain fixes would require changes in other policies, especially source and sourcing criteria. But others can be helped by improvements in wp:npov:
The most frequent forms of POV'ing slips "under the radar" of wp:npov, i.e. it gives little direction or guidance for those areas. Partial solution: Include something like the below in NPOV. Merely recognizing, understanding and spotlighting these other forms of pov'ing will help the situation.
A common assumption is that most POV questions on articles arise where there are conflicting viewpoints on a particular question, or point made in the article. This is mistaken; a minority of pov issues are of this type. Here are three more types, with an example of each:
The biggest hole in wp:npov is that it basically only addresses cases where the material espouses opposing viewpoints on a particular topic. Material which is put in for effect but which does not espouse a viewpoint slips under the wp:npov radar. The only section that slightly addresses the latter is wp:undue, and, as written, it is ineffective in this area.
This that wp:undue is basically toothless in disputes because its main guideline for implementation (preponderance in sources) is really not practically usable. One solution would be to incorporate other metrics into the guideline. The objectivity and knowledgeably of the sources with respect to the topic should be added to the raw preponderance criteria. Also, include directness--of-relevance as a criteria to be taken into consideration.
Wp:undue does not provide sufficient guidance to resolve contentious articles and generally fails on these. Adding relevancy into its guidance tools would help this situation. One place to start would be to say that when there is a dispute, one condition for inclusion of material is that it be directly ABOUT (not just be related to) the subject of the article.
WP:npov seems best designed only for the classic POV case, where there is a statement which purports to be objective fact in dispute. But the far more common case is where POV warriors seek to leave an impression on the reader via the quantity and nature of content which leaves the desired impression. This may be:
An example of the "on the topic" type would be if Rush Limbaugh announced that Barack Obama is the worst president in the last 100 years, and many newspapers reported (simply) that he made this announcement. And then an editor puts a section on this into the general Barack Obama article. Technically, the editor is not inserting/citing/having to argue the "worst president in 100 years" statement, they are just saying that Limbaugh said this. They just want the very real impact and impression of the presence of "worst president" type words in the article. A second example is that if John Smith, a person who is a second cousin of Obama is convicted of child molesting, and the conviction is covered by several newspapers in a matter-of-fact manner. And an editor places a section into the general Obama article regarding that topic. They make no other argument that needs defending, they just want the impact of child molestation related material in the Obama article and it's juxtaposition with Obama material. Most would say that these should not be in the article. And, if there were a large amount of such material in the article, most would (intuitively) say that such POV's the article. But policies and guidelines provide little guidance regarding this. The sourcing is not only on wp:solid ground, the coverage really can't be questioned, as it was matter-of-fact regarding these matters. Ditto for the "objectivity" of the text put into the article, it is simply matter of fact overage of Limbaugh's statement and the 2nd cousin's conviction.
Probably the policy/guideline most looked at for guidance on this would be wp:undue. But it is oriented towards covering opposing views on a particular statement. In these cases, the "statements" are just what was said in the speech, and the facts of the conviction. It gives guidance only on coverages of two sides of an issue. But there is no debated "issue" in this material, as it is a statement of facts regarding what Limbaugh said and of the conviction and of the relation of the child molester to Obama. Beyond that, wp:npov says what can be interpreted as "must include" for these statements.
For contentious inclusions, create a standard that the material must be directly about the subject of the article. Not just related to, but directly about. Under this analysis, the coverage of Limbaugh's speech is most directly about Limbaugh's speech, not Obama. And the child molesting material is most directly about John Smith, not Obama.
Section titles tilt this inclusion of information in an article. They influence the article to include a greater amount of material defined by the title. Example: John Smith kicked a dog once, a long time ago, and also runs an animal shelter. In the John Smith article an editor creates a "Controversies" section. This tilts the article towards inclusion of a greater amount of negative material on John Smith. It might tend to give a section on the dog-kicking incident legitimacy for inclusion which it might not have otherwise had. And it could be used to prevent another editor from including the dog sheltering material to provide balance on the topic of Smith's treatment of animals. The removing editor can say that the dog sheltering material was removed because it is "not a controversy".
For contentious situations, section headings may be created only for material that could pass the wp:undue test for inclusion in the article without the section heading. Further, only material that can remain in the article without having it's suitability "propped up" by a section heading remains. Basically, this means that material must "stand on its own two feet" regarding justification, without such being "propped up" by the section title.
North8000 ( talk) 11:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Agree that the identified holes in the policy are serious issues. The proposed solution sounds good. It seems to be related to WP:SYNTHESIS policy. GreyHood Talk 19:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Whereas all what you write is correct (or almost correct), I think the most serious problem not in the policy but in the ways it is being implemented.
Firstly, the policy states that the principles it is based upon cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. However, it is unclear for me how can it be implemented in actuality. Let's consider your first example. A group of users (A, B, C) added the words: "Smith critics noted that the XYZ study concluded that allegations of homosexual child molestation by priests is 9 times more common than allegations of heterosexual child by priests." after the sentence "Priest John Smith said that he is a homosexual." A user D objected against that citing the policy standard that the material must be directly about the subject of the article (let's assume for a moment that your proposal has been added to the policy). Of course, had the users A, B, and C been good faith users, they would accept this argument. However, if they decided to object (for instance, citing
WP:V), the added text will stay, because there was no consensus for removal of properly sourced material. Obviously, the attempt to directly remove this text will fail due to 3RR, and an appeal to admins will (the most probably) lead just to an advise to start an RfC. However, what if no other users express interest to the article about Smith? The change will stay, because the result of RfC will be "no consensus for removal".
The events may develop differently. Some admin may interfere and revert the change. However, the users A, B, and C may object pretending that that is just a content dispute, and admins cannot use administrative tools to interfere into content disputes. As a result, the current policy clause "The principles upon which this policy is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus" appears to be toothless against civil POV pushers in low traffic articles.
I do not see how your above proposal resolves this issue.
I have other comments, but I suggest to finish with this one first.--
Paul Siebert (
talk) 04:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I see the problem as follows. For low traffic articles where some group of POV-pushers acting in concert is active, there is no ways to resolve neutrality issues: if the POV-pushers constitute a majority on the talk page, any decision meet formal
WP:CONSENSUS criteria (I assume POV-pushers are civil); RfC, due to minimal or zero external input cannot resolve this situation; NPOVN is also ineffective, because usually the discussion there involves same users. And, more importantly, no administrative actions can be taken in this case, because immediately after starting the analysis of content for neutrality the admins become a party of the dispute. Therefore, the tools are needed that would allow admins to analyse arguments put forward during the the neutrality disputes without becoming a party of it.
A possible solution may be as follows. When some user expresses a concern about neutrality of some article's statement (for example, an undue weight has been given to some non-mainstream source) he is supposed to provide a reliable non-fringe secondary source that explicitly criticizes this particular source for errors, revisionism, or for the tendency to tendency to overreach and overstate his case. As soon as such a source has been provided, the article's statement should be deemed non-neutral, and needs to be changed accordingly. To prevent the change of the content, its advocates must present well sourced refutation of the source that criticize the content they defend. Failure to provide such a refutation automatically means that the disputed content must be modified.--
Paul Siebert (
talk) 16:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
My comment and suggestions are more about the structural dichotomy that exists. If, in the top level Obama article you want to write that "Obama is a bad president" (i.e. the statement of the insertion is disputed) then wp:npov in all of it's intended glory kicks in. If, in that top level article, you want to to put an uncontested but irrelevant fact in (Omama's third cousin is a convicted child molester) for negative effect, then npov is silent on the issue because the statement of the insertion is not contested. North8000 ( talk) 17:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
There's the rub Paul - banning discussion of 1 core policy when discussing an issue ostensibly about another is a major change. The "three core policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable". It's also something open to obvious abuse and frankly builds an assumption of bad faith into policy which is the opposite of what we do. When dealing with ppl acting in bad faith whether civilly or not changing core policy to 'combat' them is at the expense of its utility to the rest of the community. Sledgehammer's & nuts come to mind. Moving that Wikipedia:Advocacy become policy as part of Category:Wikipedia behavioral guidelines would make more sense IMHO-- Cailil talk 14:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
@ Cailil. Your " banning discussion of 1 core policy when discussing an issue ostensibly about another is a major change" is much stronger statement than my initial proposal was. My proposal was quite concrete: "during the discussion of the neutrality of certain statement, the arguments that this statement should stay because it is properly sources should not be taken into account." That does not rule out the arguments such as "The criticism of this viewpoint found in the source X cannot be taken seriously because the source is unreliable" (or similar arguments), because it is impossible to consider each policy separately from each other. In other words, I never proposed total ban, I just proposed to ban a certain type of arguments that very frequently appears during the NPOV discussions and RfCs, and resort to the WP:V-type argument to prevail in a dispute that is obviously about WP:NPOV. -- Paul Siebert ( talk) 15:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)