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Presently the text reads: "The talk page of one or more WikiProjects (or other Wikipedia collaborations) directly related to the topic under discussion", which would seem to be too vague. Are there any objections to "The talk page of WikiProjects (or other Wikipedia collaborations) directly related to the topic under discussion. This should include those WikiProjects listed at the talkpage header for the affected article."? LeadSongDog come howl! 16:24, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
FormerIP's question about Italian expertise generalizes beyond local embassies. To pick a topic at random, say jellyfish courting rituals, suppose an expert in that area finds herself in a dispute with a bunch of obvious amateurs in that area arguing about how to present the subject. Is it appropriate for her to canvass a community of experts on jellyfish courting rituals for their opinion? I don't see anything in the canvassing guidelines that addresses this sort of situation. (Even though I don't work in marine biology myself I would be enormously grateful for any sort of answer to this question.) -- Vaughan Pratt ( talk) 08:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
was proposed as a new section. I find one large problem is that many current projects, for which neutral notification is specifically allowed by this guideline, would become pariahs under this suggested change. That is, people in a project on a controversial topic may well be in accord about that topic to a greater or lesser extent. This change would forbid even a neutral notificattion to a very large number of projects. Collect ( talk) 20:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
This is something I have been thinking about for a while and it would be related to "stealth canvasing". This is when an editor contacts other editors by email or off-wiki to participate in a discussion he hasn't started yet. He tells them of the subject of the proposal, venue, and the time and date he plans to start the discussion. If one sees a discussion where a lot of editors immediately show up to support a proposal, this may be what happened. -- Ron Ritzman ( talk) 18:33, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
A person may send the message:" " the text for canvassing" Find 2 users without copies of this message, and make it on their talk pages." First there would be 1 copy of it, then 3, 7, e.t.c. No one makes more than 2 copies.(It isn't forbidden) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.228.166.209 ( talk) 10:34, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Would it be canvassing, if a project added some notes about current discussions on their talk page in their newsletters? -- Nascar1996( Talk • Contribs) 03:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, in interpreting the policy, particularly that very good coloured table (which should be a model for a few other guides and policies, I think), could someone tell me whether this falls within the acceptable? Thanks. Tony (talk) 03:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Am I being overly sensitive here, or do I spot an inventive form of canvassing?? An editor just "thanked" all of the editors [1] [2] [3] [4] who voted oppose to the proposal to merge Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes into Confucius Institute and invited them to put the Controversies article on their watchlist. None of the editors favouring merger were "thanked". Chances are these "thanked" editors already have the article on their watchlists already, but comments on the general principle of whether this could be considered canvassing would be welcome... -- Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
"However canvassing which is done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is considered inappropriate. "
to :
"However canvassing which is done with the intention of recruiting people to a discussion in order to influence the outcome in a particular way is considered inappropriate. "
Reason: just getting more !votes in the discussion is a bad thing, galvanising people to do work is a good thing. Example: someone proposes IP's be banned from creating new page, another editor sets up a New Page Patrol School and recruits and trains 100 New Page Patrollers. This should not count as inappropriate canvassing, although canvassing form members, if sufficiently successful, may influence the outcome of the discussion, and indeed may be intended to.
Rich
Farmbrough,
15:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC).
What if an AfD or discussion that reached a consensus and had ended failed to answer a participant's doubts? If the participant goes to a talk page of a certain Wikiproject or guidelines/policies' talk page would this be considered canvassing? Bleubeatle ( talk) 03:14, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
how do i report canvassing, a editor is canvas other editors who support the oppiste side of dispute to take part in a dispute on talk page to make a consensus fall in the other way how do i go about reporting this?-- Andrewcrawford ( talk - contrib) 12:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
In my opinion, the section on Campaigning is quite confusing. Campaigning, as defined, is generally a good thing. Every post at an XfD ought to be an "attempt to sway the person reading the message, conveyed through the use of tone, wording, or intent". I think the point of this section is that individual posts intended to persuade are fine, but when posting notices to a group of editors, the content should be more neutral. There must be a better way to write this section, because it currently exists as part of a list of inappropriate behavior, when in fact, campaigning isn't prohibited per se, it is only prohibited when used to canvass.
The nice graphic above already notes that message should be neutral, rather than biased. If there is a need to reinforce the point in this list, there must be a better way. (I'll take a stab at alternative wording, but want to see if my point is valid first.)-- SPhilbrick (Talk) 18:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Another editor recently suggested that I was canvassing by posting notice of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of AT&T U-verse channels on related pages prior to the AfD's resolution. The AfD was intended as a test case; now that it has succeeded, those related articles are being tagged with AfDs themselves. My tone may have come off as sarcastic to some readers, although at the time, I was actually on the fence about the AfD.
My issue with the Canvassing guideline, and with Wikipedia talk pages and dispute resolutions in general is that I find the involved editors to exhibit a strong self-selection bias. More often than not, I've found the same editors, endlessly rehashing the same arguments, in any given subject area; and in many cases, "outside" editors who appear to take no particular interest in a subject, but are commenting due to an overarching point of view about the proper content or general nature of WP.
Out of the entire Wikipedia community, is it known what proportion spend time at WP:Village Pump or at Project pages? It would seem that a wider net should be cast in order to reach a broader consensus and to (one hopes) bring about a generally happier community.
In the case of an AfD or some substantial mandatory change proposed to a entire category of articles, is there a bot or some other mechanism at the article level to make editors aware of significant changes proposed for those articles? Should "test cases" be disallowed such that all relevant articles should be nominated simultaneously (at least in the case of AfDs)? -- Chaswmsday ( talk) 08:40, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I am looking at the political environment in certain areas of Wikipedia, and it is clear to me, that we do not have a fair and just decision making process, and yet we are expected to respect the results of the process. Due to the fact that I am a morally reflective person, I really am not able to pretend about the situation. In some cases, it is not only morally permitted to be able to use one's free speech, but in fact required. This canvassing policy has absolutely no moral foundation. It seems to be based solely on the desire to be free from annoyance. Well annoyance is a choice, and people are responsible for their own choices. I should have every right to contact people who are stakeholders in a decision, including ones that I feel will do the right thing in my opinion. If there are people opposed to my view, they should have every right to contact stakeholders that they think will support their view. I am increasingly feeling that Wikipedia has failed, and all of the avenues that reasonable and civil people use to improve the situation have been forbidden. I find the idea that I should be in violation of a policy merely for using my ability to express in a reasonable manner my position to be immoral, repugnant and disgusting. This is a formal proposal to abolish this policy, and delete this page. Greg Bard ( talk) 21:46, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
ok lets takea example, a article you have worked on for saya year ges put up to AFD for notanbilty and copyvio , now if you was to canvas you are only likely to canvas people you know would support your side and not otehr who be opposed to it, its natural human thing, that the essence of not canvas, as another user has pointed out there nothing wrong with posting at a project to make it out in the know because then your not trying to attract one type of person you will get both, only people witha genda wont like canvas rule because it means it will go against them Andrewcrawford ( talk - contrib) 19:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
In short, the anti-canvassing policy is unfair and only distorts the true meaning of consensus, moving it from the mutual agreement of a large section of the community to that of an upper tier of editors who actually do little for the quality of the content and use Wikipedia because they like argument, crushing of the opposition, and tens of thousands of people slaving beneath them without a say in policy. Wer900 • talk 19:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
If a RFC/U and one of the supporters goes out and look for people who have disagreed with my edit, and leave a comment in a hope they'll support the cause, but don't notify editors who I've interacted but haven't particularly disagreed with me, what does it mean in the scope of our votestacking policy? Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 17:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi -- I think this would be ok, but just want to check here first (if anyone wants to opine). I am participating in a move discussion, that follows (within a few hours) a prior move discussion on the same subject. The first discussion involved about 8 editors, half of whom have commented in the follow-on/contary move proposal.
Is it ok if I contact the remaining few editors from the first merge discussion, with a neutral message on-wiki, to notify them of the new discussions, to improve the discussion by broadening participation/consensus? Also, it involves construing and applying a policy and an mos provision. Is it ok if I post a brief wholly neutral message as to the merge discussion, on the talk page of the policy and of the mos provision? Thanks.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 23:50, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I've modified the guidance in WP:Canvassing#How_to_respond_to_inappropriate_canvassing to clarify that the template is used on the canvassing user's talk page. Posting the template where the canvasing took place (for instance, on a WikiProject talk page) is likely to engender defensive remarks or further distractive comments. Ideally notices of discussions will comply with guidance so that there should be no ensuing discussion! In cases of outright disruptive blatant canvassing, I think it is appropriate to remove the canvassing notice (and replace with one that complies with guidance). But my modification does not address that course of action. – S. Rich ( talk) 04:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
If an editor leaves a biased report (for example changing name of RfC to something biased) on say 10 Wikiprojects likely to bring people who agree with those biases to an article, what is best way to proceed on the wikiproject talk pages??
Thanks! CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 14:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC) ( edit conflict)
The issues of spamming and vote-stacking have been discussed in recent sections (above). And I think the recent change here [5] is helpful. Also, I think the guidance about WP:Canvassing#How_to_respond_to_inappropriate_canvassing is appropriate to a certain extent. That is, we tell the offending editor to "cut it out" as a editor behavior warning. But what about the non-neutral notice that might go out? A notice that says "Please comment in the new RfC about horrible abuse that pink elephants are suffering." clearly has a POV. I propose that guidance be modified to explicitly allow reversion of POV/campaigning-type notices. – S. Rich ( talk) 04:48, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Regarding "How to respond to inappropriate canvassing" - these issues came up at a recent RfC where for the first time I dealt with the canvassing issue, including using templates, and probably screwed it up. So would like to save the next person problems.
Note, if no experienced editor uninvolved in previous dispute responds, I'll just put up what I think should be there - i.e., a) encourage to go to WP:ANI rather than discuss and b) say tags should remain til tagged user answers concerns. (Being bold usually will get a discussion going :-) So comments from editors with more experience in this area appreciated. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 16:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I see the changes you made, and reverted them. Per the above, we do not have a consensus. Moreover, I do not think it is a good practice to tag someone's comments with a "canvassed" notification. Doing so is an ad hominem remark and can only divert discussion away from the particular topic. In effect it says "I think you might have been canvassed, so we shouldn't pay attention to your comment." With this in mind, is the template itself one we should keep? – S. Rich ( talk) 13:47, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Finally a third editor has chimed in at this noticeboard and thinks the following language clarifies the matter, which is fine with me:
Per this revert, SRich disagrees. Others thoughts? CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 13:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Also FWIW, I don't think we need an RFC. If the template is inappropriate, then it should be deleted, and MfD discussions are considered to have community consensus. If it is *not* to be used on a discussion page, then there is already a different template for user pages, so I'm not sure where else such a template should be placed. {{ Not_a_ballot}} also mentions this template, saying that comments by canvassed users can be tagged - and Not a Ballot is on many many pages - so to assert that this template does not belong on a discussion page has no consensus, and there is lots of evidence of consensus that it should be placed there. SPECIFICO and SRich seem to think this template will cause disputes - ok, if so, then please nominate it for deletion - but keeping it, then saying it can't be placed anywhere doesn't make any sense at all. Until it is deleted, we need to give clear guidance here, and since there is confusion as to whether this can be used on a discussion page, we should be clear that for now, it CAN be, in fact, that's the only reasonable place to put it, and that's where it has been put in dozens or hundreds of discussions.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 16:36, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes only trying to tweak policy makes one read it carefully enough! Re: this under "Appropriate Notification":
So even though you can notify 5 or 6 relevant Wikiprojects (ie., most relevant ones, not leaving out relevant ones you don't like), you can't also notify, say the person who did most of the work that is now being worked on? Or someone who said, "tell me if this issue is raised at a noticeboard"? If that is not true maybe we need new wording like:
Thoughts on clarifying this? CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 04:07, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
To be bold and get your attention :-), I added in parenthesis to this section intro:
I only recently have done this besides on an article talk page, and never have had a problem when I did, but now I'm having a problem getting responses on a few things and getting WP:FORUMSHOP thrown at me by the editor whose edits I (and sometimes other) question. So think this needs to be clarified. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 18:13, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
(Note: Discussion of Wikipedia:Mailing lists sponsored by Wikimedia Foundation.)
I can't see anything in the guideline about mailing lists, yet recently an editor was taken to AN/I for notifying the gender-gap mailing list about an issue related to content about women. I would like to add something to the guideline about notifications to Wikimedia Foundation mailing lists being acceptable, if framed neutrally, so long as the list moderators have no objection. Otherwise we have a situation where people who might be interested in an issue are not being told about it. Not everyone pays attention to the talk pages where notifications are left.
The edit would stress that it has to be Wikimedia Foundation lists, so that we're not appearing to condone posting to private lists. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:21, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Srich, I do appreciate these concerns. The other side of it, though, is that Wikipedia is a huge and complicated site, and lots of people pay little attention to the general noticeboards and talk pages. So to attract interested commentators, you often have to tailor your notifications, and mailing lists are one way that people do that. It can mean that we attract more intelligent responses, because we've asked people who have thought about the issues. My thinking is that, so long as we make clear that the mailings lists have to be official ones, with public archives, that's a good enough safeguard, because then anyone who wants to can join and check that notifications are neutral. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Mailing to the Gendergap list and other Wikimedia mailing lists should be fine. All the other lists have pretty much standard Wikipedia demographics anyway. The Gendergap list, on the other hand, was specifically set up by the Foundation to counter systemic bias. Prohibiting contributors from flagging things there just reinforces and perpetuates the systemic bias, defeating part of the purpose of that list. Andreas JN 466 17:40, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Given no response at Wikipedia talk:Mailing lists per above, posted this discussion Meta mailing list talk and Meta Gender Gap talk. Since it recommends people discuss things at the mailing list, posted there too. Since there are a number of foundation types on that list, people who are involved in other mailing lists as well may respond and therefore we'll get a good spectrum of informed opinion. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 16:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Please review WP:NOCONSENSUS and WP:CANVASS SPECIFICO talk 17:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
I believe the consensus here is that the meaning of the policy is ..."place a message at one any of the following"
Just to add support for a requirement that notification on the mailing lists, forums, twitter and the like should be followed with a declaration at the discussion including a direct link to the posting. If there's clear disclosure and it's possible for both others users and the closer to see upfront then it can result in much less tension than when accusations of foul play fly back and forth. Timrollpickering ( talk) 13:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Our use of the word "canvassing" is a bit odd, and is more like push polling. Most of our canvassing is done in a good faith effort to notify others of a discussion, such as at the Village pump, some of it is inappropriate, like notifying Wikipedia talk:Article titles watchers of every requested move (or any that do not require a policy change). Some e-mailed notifications are required for privacy reasons, and are not done to be stealthy. I would not like to see an encouragement of notifying a ton of mailing lists of every RfC or AfD. We already have adequate notification of each type of discussion, in my opinion, and anything else is most likely to be done to obtain a specific result, and ill advised (you get what you want to the detriment of the project). Apteva ( talk) 16:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
A proposal perhaps was impliedly begun by editor Obi-Wan Kenobi and I am making an explicit proposal here. It is to post on all WikiProject talk pages and collaboration discussion pages a message box against posting to canvass, and there is now such a box at WikiProject Feminism and several other places. Requiring under my proposal means that it may not be deleted. The only alternative, I think, is to have such a message on none of the pages, deleting those few already present, and that's a faster plan to implement. If we want to add the message, I created a possible template to make this easier and more consistent. I'll wait a week for any comments. Nick Levinson ( talk) 17:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
![]() | Although it is very appropriate to post messages here asking for editing help or to inform about discussions concerning pages within the scope of this project, please note that posting here in order to try to recruit editors with a particular point of view is contrary to the intent of this project, and may be regarded as a violation of the WP:Canvassing guideline. |
To prevent skewing of results, I propose to delete the similar boxes posted on other pages (as a result of consensus above). I'll wait a week for any response. If pages can be identified, that can help. Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 16:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I've reverted you at the Conservatism WikiProject, and there are a lot of good reasons for my doing so. I'll begin with some background. I created that box on that particular talkpage: [8]. I never intended it to be copied anywhere else, and I was unaware that it had been placed elsewhere until I saw the removal on my watchlist today, and followed it to the discussion here. The discussion here may well be correct that it is a bad idea for it to appear on other WikiProjects. But there were good reasons for it at that particular project. If you look at the edit history just before and after my diff above, there was a "drama" over canvassing there, and such "dramas" have unfortunately been a perennial problem there. Unfortunately, we keep getting new editors who want to push a US-conservative POV who are attracted like bees to honey to that talk page, and the notice serves a genuine educational purpose there. It's been a useful fix for a serious problem. As to what led someone else to copy it to other projects, I have no idea. Now when I looked here, I see very few editors involved in the discussion, and no evidence of posting a link to the discussion on the affected talk pages before making the deletion. So it's a rather slender "consensus" to delete it from other projects, and I would have been happy to explain this history if I had known about this discussion. But really, this is not a one-size-fits-all situation, and there are compelling reasons for the notice at its original location. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I can't speak to whether similar issues exist on other WikiProjects; if so, then the template would be useful there as well. But the template should be added where it's demonstrably needed, on a case-by-case basis - that is balanced. It would be unbalanced to argue: "well, if you tag the conservative WikiProject, then you have to tag the liberal WikiProject", unless both WikiProjects have similarly evident issues with canvassing. MastCell Talk 18:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Currently a hypothetical question. The situation: multiple editors have explained a policy (or more than one) after being attracted by a noticeboard posting, then left the venue where the issue was discussed. But an editor (or two) who clearly are in the wrong engage in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and keep making the same errors or violations on the article. Is it appropriate to notify all the editors who explained the policy, even if it is six or seven? Or is there some upper number? Just wondering. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 14:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
How is [9] and [10] not canvassing? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:08, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Good morning. I have a small problem: I have been implicitly accused of inappropriate canvassing in the context of an AfD because I sought the participation of an administrator who wrote the notability guidelines in question. WP:CANVASSING states the following:
"In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus.
"However, canvassing which is done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is considered inappropriate. This is because it compromises the normal consensus decision-making process, and therefore is generally considered disruptive behavior.
"Appropriate notification
"An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:
Masem, the editor whose participation I solicited, is an administrator who was intimately involved in the writing of the specific notability guidelines of WP:NSPORTS, as well as the related commentary of WP:GNG. I solicited his opinion because I believe with good reason that NSPORTS and GNG are being routinely misapplied in the very specific scenario epitomized by the Chalmers Tschappat AfD. Given Masem is an "editor known for expertise in this field," and an "editor who [has] participated in previous discussions on the same topic [or] closely related topics," I believe that the AfD closing admin's characterization of my invitation to him to participate in the AfD as inappropriate "canvassing" is incorrect. I would be grateful if concerned editors with expertise regarding our CANVASSING policy would express their opinions. I believed that I was carefully adhering to our canvassing guidelines with particular reliance on the highlighted sections above. Was I wrong? If so, I owe two administrators an apology -- one for getting him involved inappropriately, and another for suggesting that his own interpretation of WP:CANVASSING is incorrect. Your guidance is requested. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 12:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I would like to point to a recent arbitration case where I found User:Newyorkbrad's comments quite insightful:
For years I've been struggling to figure out how our anti-canvassing policies should be updated and applied. Given the prominence of Wikipedia and of Wikipedia articles, it is entirely inevitable that when controversies arise, they will be discussed off-wiki both privately and publicly.
This sentiment was also echoed by User:Worm That Turned in the same discussion:
For the moment, I'm going to abstain. The first did appear to be canvassing, but as NYB states below our canvassing policy is hugely out of date. We live in a world dominated by social media, where people will highlight matters to each other quickly. I think the community needs to consider the issue of canvassing in this changing world, and as such feel uncomfortable making a decision on it here.
I would like the community to re-review our policies on canvassing and how to best integrate and interpret the great leaps and bounds in social media and technology into this page. The problematic and outdated "stealth canvassing" subsection should also be addressed.
@ TeleComNasSprVen: It's nice to see the community wake up to the fact that this policy is outdated and badly written in a number of places. I found this discussion just now, and I see this hasn't received enough attention, so here are my few cents above in an attempt to re-awaken this thread. I fully support starting an RfC on this, with Village Pump notifications, as it is clear this page doesn't see much attention. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
I've been accused of Canvassing a couple of times when attempting to notify editors who have worked on an article, that the article has been taken for deletion discussion. Somehow, for all the words in the policy, that case is not specified. If an editor has edited to an article, clearly visible in history, they should be involved in the discussion. By the very nature that they pushed the save button, they have proven themselves to care about the subject and that they proclaim to know about the subject. Why or how could notifying these editors be considered canvassing? Since there is apparent ambiguity here, this should be cleaned up and specifically stated. Since political activism is the next accusation, we should have a generic notification template. And to take out the filtration process a biased editor might do if selecting which editors were to be notified manually, that ought to be automatically sent to all involved editors upon the creation of the AfD. This ought to be basic procedure. So how do we make this so? Trackinfo ( talk) 18:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose to add a short subsection or atleast a bullet point forbidding editors to request help at country Wikiprojects (doesn't count for generic wikiprojects) for the purpose of content disputes (and more specifically inter-country / international disputes). This is synonymous to introducing deliberate systematic bias by inviting editors from a wikiproject with a very high probability of shared nationality and ofcourse as it is done at the posting editor's choice, it's almost always when they need an opinion where most from that nationality will share their POV. In my opinion and experience, this is never 'countered' by informing at the counter part wiki projects which are not as active or have a few editors or not as active WP:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. It only takes only a few editors from the informed Wikiproject to come and tilt the balance of discussion due to POV and bias even if a majority of the editors know better so AGF for the majority Wikiproject members is moot. Same is the case with the less active counter part that may have editors who know better and do not get canvassed to the discussion and hence the few of the few is much less than few from the many (if that makes some sense). It shouldn't count as canvassing when an obscure article needs editing without a content dispute, it should be only considered during a content dispute or to game the system by doing the same later etc. I will also note that this act is not always intentional by the editors but has almost always the same result and informing them of WP:CANVASSING that specifically clarifies this will counter systematic bias. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 07:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
}}
At Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Pockets of Over-capitalization, I've proposed the idea of advertising at WT:MOS those WP:RM discussions that involve issues of style guidance, such as capitalization, similar to the way many RMs are automatically advertised at wikiprojects. An editor responded that this would be pure canvassing, and that I should bring the idea here to have it shot down. What do people think? Dicklyon ( talk) 06:09, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
There was a recent case where someone pinged another user, by posting this on a talk page, to get them to the page and get their take on controversial additions to the page.
I reverted (user name) here on his addition, pointing him to the WP:MEDRS guideline. He re-added the material, and with what is not much of an improvement. (Pinged user), as a fellow WP:Med editor who has also recently mentioned/interacted with them (as seen here and here), do you mind weighing in on this matter?
My question is, am I allowed to use this message format to ping other users to a page, or would it be WP:Canvassing if I do so? Does requesting other users come to a page to get their thoughts on an issue if presented like this count as canvassing, or is it just regular communication? -- 7157.118.25a ( talk) 04:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty new to the talk sections, but I found a project in the IdeaLab on recruiting women with disabilities and I think I know some people who run online communities for women with disabilities and who could make that happen. I sent the project page to them, in the hopes that they could help flesh out the idea and make it something that would be easy to implement. Is connecting them to the project page canvassing?
I also posted the project on of wikipeda forums I know are frequented by women with disabilities and some other projects on reducing harassment on a blog post about harassment on wikipedia. My hope was that I could encourage people with related interests, experiences, and expertise to get involved in the discussion, but it could effect the vote (so far I've only heard back from one friend, who is also an editor). 87.17.188.189 Xttina.Garnet ( talk) 17:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
One editor believes that the following text, which was posted to WP:RSN, WT:ORN, WT:RequestedMoves, WT:NPOVN, and WT:BLPN, violates WP:canvassing. The other does not.
There is talk at the village pump about creating a noticeboard similar to this one for style issues. Right now, people tend to bring their style questions to WT:MoS and other talk pages: [12] [13]. They do not much disrupt business there, but there is some concern that people may not know where to go to get a clear answer about Wikipedia's policies regarding punctuation, capitalization, spelling, and other style issues. Proponents of the measure say that a noticeboard would be easier for people to find. Opponents of the measure argue that such a style board might facilitate forum shopping and drama. Contributions from users who have experience with Wikipedia's noticeboards would be very welcome. The proposal itself is at the Village Pump. A mockup of the style noticeboard is here.
The first editor contacted the poster with canvassing concerns on the poster's talk page here (will reveal identities of participants). The poster requested clarification and constructive criticism. The first editor stated that participants on noticeboards would be more likely to approve the creation of a new noticeboard. The poster stated that participants on noticeboards would be valuable to the discussion of the proposal because they would know whether objections to it were merited or not and that he/she did not believe they would be inherently more or less likely to approve the creation of a new noticeboard. Thank you for any help you choose to give. 06:41, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
How many RfC notifications are reasonable. The canvasing guidelines clearly state that the number should be limited. How do we decide if that limit has been crossed? Excessive notifications is the core concern with[ | this ANI.] I feel that 30+ notices, updates and adding to the list of locations after the discussion does not go the way the originator of the RfC would count as excessive. The original RfC was posted in seven locations which seems sufficient if a bit on the too much side to me. If you can't find the right 4-5 places to post the RfC then perhaps you need to do a better job thinking about the issue (in my view). After a period two additional notices were added to new locations and new notices were posted at several of the old locations (on some high traffic boards the notices cycle off rather quickly). Anyway, while I'm using a real ANI as the example, please answer this in general terms. Thoughts on the actual ANI can be added there. Thanks Springee ( talk) 13:49, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Is there any Wikipedia rule or policy that prohibits people from meeting and working-out differences of opinions on articles outside the (horribly abysmal and inadequate) Wikipedia Discussion Pages? Jonny Quick ( talk) 07:10, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Quick question: Does pinging a user in order to get them to participate in a discussion violate our prohibition against canvassing? I feel that if I know user x agrees with me the sky is red, then pinging him in the midst of related talk page discussion should count as canvassing. Calidum T| C 04:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
without a real explanation of the case, there are at least four separate possible results, which is why I have explained this case. In my opinion it is stealth canvassing: You haven't posted a question directly on the users' talk pages. Instead you have pinged the users and asked "can you support this suggestion", while trying to influence them by flattering them, saying "You both know that I highly respect you, and appreciate your opinions on any topic". -- AussieLegend ( ✉) 16:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
On that basis I think there is a lesson for [Flyer22 Reborn] to learn here: if you ping editors for an RFC then "What do you think of Masem's proposal?" would be preferable to "Can you support Masem's proposal?". Please give others a chance to weigh in. -- AussieLegend ( ✉) 22:13, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
OK - when you ask other editors, you should use language which in no way whatever can be construed as showing your own opinion, and, ideally, you should include editors who definitely do not always agree with your own position, but who are regarded as generally reliable impartial folks on the issue at hand. I hope this clarifies things a bit :). Collect ( talk) 22:34, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
AussieLegend, if you make claims about me that I dispute, I am going to dispute those claims. I do not have to wait for others to weigh in on your mischaracterization of me and/or my post. I felt that Collect initially ignored you (he was editing Wikipedia long after you pinged him), and I took that as him not seeing the matter as seriously as you do. Collect stated above, "CANVASS basically stipulates that either you have a strong notion as to the views of the person or persons contacted, or that you give a non-neutral statement of the RfC." And like I noted, "That you took 'Can you support Masem's suggestions?' as me asking them to support any of the suggestions is your interpretation. If I had stated 'Can or can't you support Masem's suggestions?', I highly doubt you would have taken issue. But there was no need whatsoever to state 'Can or can't you support Masem's suggestions?' Some grammar experts, for example, believe that stating 'whether or not' is redundant; you can simply stop at 'whether.' I stopped at 'can.' When I pinged them, it was without any assumption of what they would state [...] WP:Canvass, as made clear at that guideline and on its talk page, is about knowingly pulling in editors to influence a discussion in one's favor. I did not know or suspect that Betty Logan felt this way. And I felt it was better that I ask for their opinions on this dispute out in the open on this talk page instead of at their talk pages."
As seen here, Betty Logan did not state that she took issue with my wording or support the implication that I canvassed her. She simply suggested that it would be better if I use different wording, and it's clear that she suggested that because you dislike my wording. She was also clear that we do not always agree. In fact, there are various times we have disagreed. The two us disagreeing is not a rare site. We even disagree on this spoiler matter; in other words, we are not in full agreement. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:15, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
And as for adding pinging to the guideline, this dispute is an excellent example of the gray area that Collect noted above, and is why pinging is unlikely to be added to the guideline. At least not without careful wording. I maintain that this is the case since editors ping others to support their viewpoint in discussions all the time, including with regard to disruptive editors. I certainly ping editors to discussions involving disruptive editors all the time, and so does just about everyone else on Wikipedia. In these cases, it is almost always clear that we are pinging them for backup. When it comes to cases like the aforementioned RfC, biasing the discussion was never on my mind, and I don't believe that I did bias it. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
This policy has been used in an attempt to restrict my right to defend myself against the serious accusation of wikistalking. For the record, the accusation is totally unfounded. When the accusation was made, I naturally sought comment from four other editors who, in my view, could verify that my accuser was involved in longstanding disputes. The details are not so important, because the main point is there is an accusation and a need to defend it. How surprised I was to find that this policy was used to critise me for seeking comments from other editors involved in the dispute. The right to a defense is a fundamental of law. Even criminals have the right to defend themselves. Travelmite ( talk) 05:14, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Again, you ignore the fact that no evidence is more glaring than the black and white evidence that diffs provide. Getting back to the main point, your proposal basically results in ineffectual canvassing. The black and white of diffs cannot lie. I don't see how you linked a newbie being warned and them coming to the (misguided) conclusion that the system was biassed. Seriously, the more I read of your arguments the more it seems like you're clutching at straws. Blackmane ( talk) 03:26, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Two parts of WP:APPNOTE appear to contradict:
How can an editor have participated in previous discussions on the same topic, and yet be "uninvolved"? What if the previous discussion was, like, yesterday? ― Mandruss ☎ 13:39, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
As seen here, I disagree with the following order by Jc37:
______
I disagree with that order because when it comes to contacting other editors for opinions, using the article talk page and/or contacting WikiProjects are more common actions than heading straight to the Village pump and/or other noticeboards, and because the "central location" bullet point is specifically about "discussions that have a wider impact such as policy or guideline discussions." In most cases, contacting editors for opinions is not about matters that may impact a policy or guideline; they are usually more so about article matters than specifically policy or guideline matters. Furthermore, editors should usually try to settle matters at the article talk page before seeking opinions via WP:Dispute resolution. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 02:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
That stated, in my experience, using "the talk page of one or more directly related articles" to contact editors for opinions is less practiced than going to the talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects, or going to the Village pump or other relevant noticeboard. So I'm okay with the "The talk page of one or more directly related articles." bullet point coming third. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 02:33, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
I made this compromise edit. Per above, I think this order is more true to practice. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 22:37, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I would like to notify those who identify as RC Patrollers of proposals at the 2016 Community Wishlist Survey that have something to do with RC patrolling, frankly including one I have proposed. Would this be considered vote stacking? I'm not telling them to vote for anything -- just to see them and make up their own mind, since it's an area of their concern. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 19:54, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Presently the text reads: "The talk page of one or more WikiProjects (or other Wikipedia collaborations) directly related to the topic under discussion", which would seem to be too vague. Are there any objections to "The talk page of WikiProjects (or other Wikipedia collaborations) directly related to the topic under discussion. This should include those WikiProjects listed at the talkpage header for the affected article."? LeadSongDog come howl! 16:24, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
FormerIP's question about Italian expertise generalizes beyond local embassies. To pick a topic at random, say jellyfish courting rituals, suppose an expert in that area finds herself in a dispute with a bunch of obvious amateurs in that area arguing about how to present the subject. Is it appropriate for her to canvass a community of experts on jellyfish courting rituals for their opinion? I don't see anything in the canvassing guidelines that addresses this sort of situation. (Even though I don't work in marine biology myself I would be enormously grateful for any sort of answer to this question.) -- Vaughan Pratt ( talk) 08:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
was proposed as a new section. I find one large problem is that many current projects, for which neutral notification is specifically allowed by this guideline, would become pariahs under this suggested change. That is, people in a project on a controversial topic may well be in accord about that topic to a greater or lesser extent. This change would forbid even a neutral notificattion to a very large number of projects. Collect ( talk) 20:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
This is something I have been thinking about for a while and it would be related to "stealth canvasing". This is when an editor contacts other editors by email or off-wiki to participate in a discussion he hasn't started yet. He tells them of the subject of the proposal, venue, and the time and date he plans to start the discussion. If one sees a discussion where a lot of editors immediately show up to support a proposal, this may be what happened. -- Ron Ritzman ( talk) 18:33, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
A person may send the message:" " the text for canvassing" Find 2 users without copies of this message, and make it on their talk pages." First there would be 1 copy of it, then 3, 7, e.t.c. No one makes more than 2 copies.(It isn't forbidden) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.228.166.209 ( talk) 10:34, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Would it be canvassing, if a project added some notes about current discussions on their talk page in their newsletters? -- Nascar1996( Talk • Contribs) 03:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, in interpreting the policy, particularly that very good coloured table (which should be a model for a few other guides and policies, I think), could someone tell me whether this falls within the acceptable? Thanks. Tony (talk) 03:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Am I being overly sensitive here, or do I spot an inventive form of canvassing?? An editor just "thanked" all of the editors [1] [2] [3] [4] who voted oppose to the proposal to merge Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes into Confucius Institute and invited them to put the Controversies article on their watchlist. None of the editors favouring merger were "thanked". Chances are these "thanked" editors already have the article on their watchlists already, but comments on the general principle of whether this could be considered canvassing would be welcome... -- Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
"However canvassing which is done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is considered inappropriate. "
to :
"However canvassing which is done with the intention of recruiting people to a discussion in order to influence the outcome in a particular way is considered inappropriate. "
Reason: just getting more !votes in the discussion is a bad thing, galvanising people to do work is a good thing. Example: someone proposes IP's be banned from creating new page, another editor sets up a New Page Patrol School and recruits and trains 100 New Page Patrollers. This should not count as inappropriate canvassing, although canvassing form members, if sufficiently successful, may influence the outcome of the discussion, and indeed may be intended to.
Rich
Farmbrough,
15:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC).
What if an AfD or discussion that reached a consensus and had ended failed to answer a participant's doubts? If the participant goes to a talk page of a certain Wikiproject or guidelines/policies' talk page would this be considered canvassing? Bleubeatle ( talk) 03:14, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
how do i report canvassing, a editor is canvas other editors who support the oppiste side of dispute to take part in a dispute on talk page to make a consensus fall in the other way how do i go about reporting this?-- Andrewcrawford ( talk - contrib) 12:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
In my opinion, the section on Campaigning is quite confusing. Campaigning, as defined, is generally a good thing. Every post at an XfD ought to be an "attempt to sway the person reading the message, conveyed through the use of tone, wording, or intent". I think the point of this section is that individual posts intended to persuade are fine, but when posting notices to a group of editors, the content should be more neutral. There must be a better way to write this section, because it currently exists as part of a list of inappropriate behavior, when in fact, campaigning isn't prohibited per se, it is only prohibited when used to canvass.
The nice graphic above already notes that message should be neutral, rather than biased. If there is a need to reinforce the point in this list, there must be a better way. (I'll take a stab at alternative wording, but want to see if my point is valid first.)-- SPhilbrick (Talk) 18:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Another editor recently suggested that I was canvassing by posting notice of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of AT&T U-verse channels on related pages prior to the AfD's resolution. The AfD was intended as a test case; now that it has succeeded, those related articles are being tagged with AfDs themselves. My tone may have come off as sarcastic to some readers, although at the time, I was actually on the fence about the AfD.
My issue with the Canvassing guideline, and with Wikipedia talk pages and dispute resolutions in general is that I find the involved editors to exhibit a strong self-selection bias. More often than not, I've found the same editors, endlessly rehashing the same arguments, in any given subject area; and in many cases, "outside" editors who appear to take no particular interest in a subject, but are commenting due to an overarching point of view about the proper content or general nature of WP.
Out of the entire Wikipedia community, is it known what proportion spend time at WP:Village Pump or at Project pages? It would seem that a wider net should be cast in order to reach a broader consensus and to (one hopes) bring about a generally happier community.
In the case of an AfD or some substantial mandatory change proposed to a entire category of articles, is there a bot or some other mechanism at the article level to make editors aware of significant changes proposed for those articles? Should "test cases" be disallowed such that all relevant articles should be nominated simultaneously (at least in the case of AfDs)? -- Chaswmsday ( talk) 08:40, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I am looking at the political environment in certain areas of Wikipedia, and it is clear to me, that we do not have a fair and just decision making process, and yet we are expected to respect the results of the process. Due to the fact that I am a morally reflective person, I really am not able to pretend about the situation. In some cases, it is not only morally permitted to be able to use one's free speech, but in fact required. This canvassing policy has absolutely no moral foundation. It seems to be based solely on the desire to be free from annoyance. Well annoyance is a choice, and people are responsible for their own choices. I should have every right to contact people who are stakeholders in a decision, including ones that I feel will do the right thing in my opinion. If there are people opposed to my view, they should have every right to contact stakeholders that they think will support their view. I am increasingly feeling that Wikipedia has failed, and all of the avenues that reasonable and civil people use to improve the situation have been forbidden. I find the idea that I should be in violation of a policy merely for using my ability to express in a reasonable manner my position to be immoral, repugnant and disgusting. This is a formal proposal to abolish this policy, and delete this page. Greg Bard ( talk) 21:46, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
ok lets takea example, a article you have worked on for saya year ges put up to AFD for notanbilty and copyvio , now if you was to canvas you are only likely to canvas people you know would support your side and not otehr who be opposed to it, its natural human thing, that the essence of not canvas, as another user has pointed out there nothing wrong with posting at a project to make it out in the know because then your not trying to attract one type of person you will get both, only people witha genda wont like canvas rule because it means it will go against them Andrewcrawford ( talk - contrib) 19:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
In short, the anti-canvassing policy is unfair and only distorts the true meaning of consensus, moving it from the mutual agreement of a large section of the community to that of an upper tier of editors who actually do little for the quality of the content and use Wikipedia because they like argument, crushing of the opposition, and tens of thousands of people slaving beneath them without a say in policy. Wer900 • talk 19:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
If a RFC/U and one of the supporters goes out and look for people who have disagreed with my edit, and leave a comment in a hope they'll support the cause, but don't notify editors who I've interacted but haven't particularly disagreed with me, what does it mean in the scope of our votestacking policy? Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 17:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi -- I think this would be ok, but just want to check here first (if anyone wants to opine). I am participating in a move discussion, that follows (within a few hours) a prior move discussion on the same subject. The first discussion involved about 8 editors, half of whom have commented in the follow-on/contary move proposal.
Is it ok if I contact the remaining few editors from the first merge discussion, with a neutral message on-wiki, to notify them of the new discussions, to improve the discussion by broadening participation/consensus? Also, it involves construing and applying a policy and an mos provision. Is it ok if I post a brief wholly neutral message as to the merge discussion, on the talk page of the policy and of the mos provision? Thanks.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 23:50, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I've modified the guidance in WP:Canvassing#How_to_respond_to_inappropriate_canvassing to clarify that the template is used on the canvassing user's talk page. Posting the template where the canvasing took place (for instance, on a WikiProject talk page) is likely to engender defensive remarks or further distractive comments. Ideally notices of discussions will comply with guidance so that there should be no ensuing discussion! In cases of outright disruptive blatant canvassing, I think it is appropriate to remove the canvassing notice (and replace with one that complies with guidance). But my modification does not address that course of action. – S. Rich ( talk) 04:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
If an editor leaves a biased report (for example changing name of RfC to something biased) on say 10 Wikiprojects likely to bring people who agree with those biases to an article, what is best way to proceed on the wikiproject talk pages??
Thanks! CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 14:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC) ( edit conflict)
The issues of spamming and vote-stacking have been discussed in recent sections (above). And I think the recent change here [5] is helpful. Also, I think the guidance about WP:Canvassing#How_to_respond_to_inappropriate_canvassing is appropriate to a certain extent. That is, we tell the offending editor to "cut it out" as a editor behavior warning. But what about the non-neutral notice that might go out? A notice that says "Please comment in the new RfC about horrible abuse that pink elephants are suffering." clearly has a POV. I propose that guidance be modified to explicitly allow reversion of POV/campaigning-type notices. – S. Rich ( talk) 04:48, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Regarding "How to respond to inappropriate canvassing" - these issues came up at a recent RfC where for the first time I dealt with the canvassing issue, including using templates, and probably screwed it up. So would like to save the next person problems.
Note, if no experienced editor uninvolved in previous dispute responds, I'll just put up what I think should be there - i.e., a) encourage to go to WP:ANI rather than discuss and b) say tags should remain til tagged user answers concerns. (Being bold usually will get a discussion going :-) So comments from editors with more experience in this area appreciated. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 16:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I see the changes you made, and reverted them. Per the above, we do not have a consensus. Moreover, I do not think it is a good practice to tag someone's comments with a "canvassed" notification. Doing so is an ad hominem remark and can only divert discussion away from the particular topic. In effect it says "I think you might have been canvassed, so we shouldn't pay attention to your comment." With this in mind, is the template itself one we should keep? – S. Rich ( talk) 13:47, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Finally a third editor has chimed in at this noticeboard and thinks the following language clarifies the matter, which is fine with me:
Per this revert, SRich disagrees. Others thoughts? CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 13:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Also FWIW, I don't think we need an RFC. If the template is inappropriate, then it should be deleted, and MfD discussions are considered to have community consensus. If it is *not* to be used on a discussion page, then there is already a different template for user pages, so I'm not sure where else such a template should be placed. {{ Not_a_ballot}} also mentions this template, saying that comments by canvassed users can be tagged - and Not a Ballot is on many many pages - so to assert that this template does not belong on a discussion page has no consensus, and there is lots of evidence of consensus that it should be placed there. SPECIFICO and SRich seem to think this template will cause disputes - ok, if so, then please nominate it for deletion - but keeping it, then saying it can't be placed anywhere doesn't make any sense at all. Until it is deleted, we need to give clear guidance here, and since there is confusion as to whether this can be used on a discussion page, we should be clear that for now, it CAN be, in fact, that's the only reasonable place to put it, and that's where it has been put in dozens or hundreds of discussions.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 16:36, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes only trying to tweak policy makes one read it carefully enough! Re: this under "Appropriate Notification":
So even though you can notify 5 or 6 relevant Wikiprojects (ie., most relevant ones, not leaving out relevant ones you don't like), you can't also notify, say the person who did most of the work that is now being worked on? Or someone who said, "tell me if this issue is raised at a noticeboard"? If that is not true maybe we need new wording like:
Thoughts on clarifying this? CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 04:07, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
To be bold and get your attention :-), I added in parenthesis to this section intro:
I only recently have done this besides on an article talk page, and never have had a problem when I did, but now I'm having a problem getting responses on a few things and getting WP:FORUMSHOP thrown at me by the editor whose edits I (and sometimes other) question. So think this needs to be clarified. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 18:13, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
(Note: Discussion of Wikipedia:Mailing lists sponsored by Wikimedia Foundation.)
I can't see anything in the guideline about mailing lists, yet recently an editor was taken to AN/I for notifying the gender-gap mailing list about an issue related to content about women. I would like to add something to the guideline about notifications to Wikimedia Foundation mailing lists being acceptable, if framed neutrally, so long as the list moderators have no objection. Otherwise we have a situation where people who might be interested in an issue are not being told about it. Not everyone pays attention to the talk pages where notifications are left.
The edit would stress that it has to be Wikimedia Foundation lists, so that we're not appearing to condone posting to private lists. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:21, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Srich, I do appreciate these concerns. The other side of it, though, is that Wikipedia is a huge and complicated site, and lots of people pay little attention to the general noticeboards and talk pages. So to attract interested commentators, you often have to tailor your notifications, and mailing lists are one way that people do that. It can mean that we attract more intelligent responses, because we've asked people who have thought about the issues. My thinking is that, so long as we make clear that the mailings lists have to be official ones, with public archives, that's a good enough safeguard, because then anyone who wants to can join and check that notifications are neutral. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Mailing to the Gendergap list and other Wikimedia mailing lists should be fine. All the other lists have pretty much standard Wikipedia demographics anyway. The Gendergap list, on the other hand, was specifically set up by the Foundation to counter systemic bias. Prohibiting contributors from flagging things there just reinforces and perpetuates the systemic bias, defeating part of the purpose of that list. Andreas JN 466 17:40, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Given no response at Wikipedia talk:Mailing lists per above, posted this discussion Meta mailing list talk and Meta Gender Gap talk. Since it recommends people discuss things at the mailing list, posted there too. Since there are a number of foundation types on that list, people who are involved in other mailing lists as well may respond and therefore we'll get a good spectrum of informed opinion. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 16:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Please review WP:NOCONSENSUS and WP:CANVASS SPECIFICO talk 17:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
I believe the consensus here is that the meaning of the policy is ..."place a message at one any of the following"
Just to add support for a requirement that notification on the mailing lists, forums, twitter and the like should be followed with a declaration at the discussion including a direct link to the posting. If there's clear disclosure and it's possible for both others users and the closer to see upfront then it can result in much less tension than when accusations of foul play fly back and forth. Timrollpickering ( talk) 13:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Our use of the word "canvassing" is a bit odd, and is more like push polling. Most of our canvassing is done in a good faith effort to notify others of a discussion, such as at the Village pump, some of it is inappropriate, like notifying Wikipedia talk:Article titles watchers of every requested move (or any that do not require a policy change). Some e-mailed notifications are required for privacy reasons, and are not done to be stealthy. I would not like to see an encouragement of notifying a ton of mailing lists of every RfC or AfD. We already have adequate notification of each type of discussion, in my opinion, and anything else is most likely to be done to obtain a specific result, and ill advised (you get what you want to the detriment of the project). Apteva ( talk) 16:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
A proposal perhaps was impliedly begun by editor Obi-Wan Kenobi and I am making an explicit proposal here. It is to post on all WikiProject talk pages and collaboration discussion pages a message box against posting to canvass, and there is now such a box at WikiProject Feminism and several other places. Requiring under my proposal means that it may not be deleted. The only alternative, I think, is to have such a message on none of the pages, deleting those few already present, and that's a faster plan to implement. If we want to add the message, I created a possible template to make this easier and more consistent. I'll wait a week for any comments. Nick Levinson ( talk) 17:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
![]() | Although it is very appropriate to post messages here asking for editing help or to inform about discussions concerning pages within the scope of this project, please note that posting here in order to try to recruit editors with a particular point of view is contrary to the intent of this project, and may be regarded as a violation of the WP:Canvassing guideline. |
To prevent skewing of results, I propose to delete the similar boxes posted on other pages (as a result of consensus above). I'll wait a week for any response. If pages can be identified, that can help. Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 16:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I've reverted you at the Conservatism WikiProject, and there are a lot of good reasons for my doing so. I'll begin with some background. I created that box on that particular talkpage: [8]. I never intended it to be copied anywhere else, and I was unaware that it had been placed elsewhere until I saw the removal on my watchlist today, and followed it to the discussion here. The discussion here may well be correct that it is a bad idea for it to appear on other WikiProjects. But there were good reasons for it at that particular project. If you look at the edit history just before and after my diff above, there was a "drama" over canvassing there, and such "dramas" have unfortunately been a perennial problem there. Unfortunately, we keep getting new editors who want to push a US-conservative POV who are attracted like bees to honey to that talk page, and the notice serves a genuine educational purpose there. It's been a useful fix for a serious problem. As to what led someone else to copy it to other projects, I have no idea. Now when I looked here, I see very few editors involved in the discussion, and no evidence of posting a link to the discussion on the affected talk pages before making the deletion. So it's a rather slender "consensus" to delete it from other projects, and I would have been happy to explain this history if I had known about this discussion. But really, this is not a one-size-fits-all situation, and there are compelling reasons for the notice at its original location. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I can't speak to whether similar issues exist on other WikiProjects; if so, then the template would be useful there as well. But the template should be added where it's demonstrably needed, on a case-by-case basis - that is balanced. It would be unbalanced to argue: "well, if you tag the conservative WikiProject, then you have to tag the liberal WikiProject", unless both WikiProjects have similarly evident issues with canvassing. MastCell Talk 18:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Currently a hypothetical question. The situation: multiple editors have explained a policy (or more than one) after being attracted by a noticeboard posting, then left the venue where the issue was discussed. But an editor (or two) who clearly are in the wrong engage in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and keep making the same errors or violations on the article. Is it appropriate to notify all the editors who explained the policy, even if it is six or seven? Or is there some upper number? Just wondering. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 14:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
How is [9] and [10] not canvassing? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:08, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Good morning. I have a small problem: I have been implicitly accused of inappropriate canvassing in the context of an AfD because I sought the participation of an administrator who wrote the notability guidelines in question. WP:CANVASSING states the following:
"In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus.
"However, canvassing which is done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is considered inappropriate. This is because it compromises the normal consensus decision-making process, and therefore is generally considered disruptive behavior.
"Appropriate notification
"An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:
Masem, the editor whose participation I solicited, is an administrator who was intimately involved in the writing of the specific notability guidelines of WP:NSPORTS, as well as the related commentary of WP:GNG. I solicited his opinion because I believe with good reason that NSPORTS and GNG are being routinely misapplied in the very specific scenario epitomized by the Chalmers Tschappat AfD. Given Masem is an "editor known for expertise in this field," and an "editor who [has] participated in previous discussions on the same topic [or] closely related topics," I believe that the AfD closing admin's characterization of my invitation to him to participate in the AfD as inappropriate "canvassing" is incorrect. I would be grateful if concerned editors with expertise regarding our CANVASSING policy would express their opinions. I believed that I was carefully adhering to our canvassing guidelines with particular reliance on the highlighted sections above. Was I wrong? If so, I owe two administrators an apology -- one for getting him involved inappropriately, and another for suggesting that his own interpretation of WP:CANVASSING is incorrect. Your guidance is requested. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 12:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I would like to point to a recent arbitration case where I found User:Newyorkbrad's comments quite insightful:
For years I've been struggling to figure out how our anti-canvassing policies should be updated and applied. Given the prominence of Wikipedia and of Wikipedia articles, it is entirely inevitable that when controversies arise, they will be discussed off-wiki both privately and publicly.
This sentiment was also echoed by User:Worm That Turned in the same discussion:
For the moment, I'm going to abstain. The first did appear to be canvassing, but as NYB states below our canvassing policy is hugely out of date. We live in a world dominated by social media, where people will highlight matters to each other quickly. I think the community needs to consider the issue of canvassing in this changing world, and as such feel uncomfortable making a decision on it here.
I would like the community to re-review our policies on canvassing and how to best integrate and interpret the great leaps and bounds in social media and technology into this page. The problematic and outdated "stealth canvassing" subsection should also be addressed.
@ TeleComNasSprVen: It's nice to see the community wake up to the fact that this policy is outdated and badly written in a number of places. I found this discussion just now, and I see this hasn't received enough attention, so here are my few cents above in an attempt to re-awaken this thread. I fully support starting an RfC on this, with Village Pump notifications, as it is clear this page doesn't see much attention. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
I've been accused of Canvassing a couple of times when attempting to notify editors who have worked on an article, that the article has been taken for deletion discussion. Somehow, for all the words in the policy, that case is not specified. If an editor has edited to an article, clearly visible in history, they should be involved in the discussion. By the very nature that they pushed the save button, they have proven themselves to care about the subject and that they proclaim to know about the subject. Why or how could notifying these editors be considered canvassing? Since there is apparent ambiguity here, this should be cleaned up and specifically stated. Since political activism is the next accusation, we should have a generic notification template. And to take out the filtration process a biased editor might do if selecting which editors were to be notified manually, that ought to be automatically sent to all involved editors upon the creation of the AfD. This ought to be basic procedure. So how do we make this so? Trackinfo ( talk) 18:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose to add a short subsection or atleast a bullet point forbidding editors to request help at country Wikiprojects (doesn't count for generic wikiprojects) for the purpose of content disputes (and more specifically inter-country / international disputes). This is synonymous to introducing deliberate systematic bias by inviting editors from a wikiproject with a very high probability of shared nationality and ofcourse as it is done at the posting editor's choice, it's almost always when they need an opinion where most from that nationality will share their POV. In my opinion and experience, this is never 'countered' by informing at the counter part wiki projects which are not as active or have a few editors or not as active WP:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. It only takes only a few editors from the informed Wikiproject to come and tilt the balance of discussion due to POV and bias even if a majority of the editors know better so AGF for the majority Wikiproject members is moot. Same is the case with the less active counter part that may have editors who know better and do not get canvassed to the discussion and hence the few of the few is much less than few from the many (if that makes some sense). It shouldn't count as canvassing when an obscure article needs editing without a content dispute, it should be only considered during a content dispute or to game the system by doing the same later etc. I will also note that this act is not always intentional by the editors but has almost always the same result and informing them of WP:CANVASSING that specifically clarifies this will counter systematic bias. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 07:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
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At Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Pockets of Over-capitalization, I've proposed the idea of advertising at WT:MOS those WP:RM discussions that involve issues of style guidance, such as capitalization, similar to the way many RMs are automatically advertised at wikiprojects. An editor responded that this would be pure canvassing, and that I should bring the idea here to have it shot down. What do people think? Dicklyon ( talk) 06:09, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
There was a recent case where someone pinged another user, by posting this on a talk page, to get them to the page and get their take on controversial additions to the page.
I reverted (user name) here on his addition, pointing him to the WP:MEDRS guideline. He re-added the material, and with what is not much of an improvement. (Pinged user), as a fellow WP:Med editor who has also recently mentioned/interacted with them (as seen here and here), do you mind weighing in on this matter?
My question is, am I allowed to use this message format to ping other users to a page, or would it be WP:Canvassing if I do so? Does requesting other users come to a page to get their thoughts on an issue if presented like this count as canvassing, or is it just regular communication? -- 7157.118.25a ( talk) 04:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty new to the talk sections, but I found a project in the IdeaLab on recruiting women with disabilities and I think I know some people who run online communities for women with disabilities and who could make that happen. I sent the project page to them, in the hopes that they could help flesh out the idea and make it something that would be easy to implement. Is connecting them to the project page canvassing?
I also posted the project on of wikipeda forums I know are frequented by women with disabilities and some other projects on reducing harassment on a blog post about harassment on wikipedia. My hope was that I could encourage people with related interests, experiences, and expertise to get involved in the discussion, but it could effect the vote (so far I've only heard back from one friend, who is also an editor). 87.17.188.189 Xttina.Garnet ( talk) 17:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
One editor believes that the following text, which was posted to WP:RSN, WT:ORN, WT:RequestedMoves, WT:NPOVN, and WT:BLPN, violates WP:canvassing. The other does not.
There is talk at the village pump about creating a noticeboard similar to this one for style issues. Right now, people tend to bring their style questions to WT:MoS and other talk pages: [12] [13]. They do not much disrupt business there, but there is some concern that people may not know where to go to get a clear answer about Wikipedia's policies regarding punctuation, capitalization, spelling, and other style issues. Proponents of the measure say that a noticeboard would be easier for people to find. Opponents of the measure argue that such a style board might facilitate forum shopping and drama. Contributions from users who have experience with Wikipedia's noticeboards would be very welcome. The proposal itself is at the Village Pump. A mockup of the style noticeboard is here.
The first editor contacted the poster with canvassing concerns on the poster's talk page here (will reveal identities of participants). The poster requested clarification and constructive criticism. The first editor stated that participants on noticeboards would be more likely to approve the creation of a new noticeboard. The poster stated that participants on noticeboards would be valuable to the discussion of the proposal because they would know whether objections to it were merited or not and that he/she did not believe they would be inherently more or less likely to approve the creation of a new noticeboard. Thank you for any help you choose to give. 06:41, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
How many RfC notifications are reasonable. The canvasing guidelines clearly state that the number should be limited. How do we decide if that limit has been crossed? Excessive notifications is the core concern with[ | this ANI.] I feel that 30+ notices, updates and adding to the list of locations after the discussion does not go the way the originator of the RfC would count as excessive. The original RfC was posted in seven locations which seems sufficient if a bit on the too much side to me. If you can't find the right 4-5 places to post the RfC then perhaps you need to do a better job thinking about the issue (in my view). After a period two additional notices were added to new locations and new notices were posted at several of the old locations (on some high traffic boards the notices cycle off rather quickly). Anyway, while I'm using a real ANI as the example, please answer this in general terms. Thoughts on the actual ANI can be added there. Thanks Springee ( talk) 13:49, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Is there any Wikipedia rule or policy that prohibits people from meeting and working-out differences of opinions on articles outside the (horribly abysmal and inadequate) Wikipedia Discussion Pages? Jonny Quick ( talk) 07:10, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Quick question: Does pinging a user in order to get them to participate in a discussion violate our prohibition against canvassing? I feel that if I know user x agrees with me the sky is red, then pinging him in the midst of related talk page discussion should count as canvassing. Calidum T| C 04:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
without a real explanation of the case, there are at least four separate possible results, which is why I have explained this case. In my opinion it is stealth canvassing: You haven't posted a question directly on the users' talk pages. Instead you have pinged the users and asked "can you support this suggestion", while trying to influence them by flattering them, saying "You both know that I highly respect you, and appreciate your opinions on any topic". -- AussieLegend ( ✉) 16:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
On that basis I think there is a lesson for [Flyer22 Reborn] to learn here: if you ping editors for an RFC then "What do you think of Masem's proposal?" would be preferable to "Can you support Masem's proposal?". Please give others a chance to weigh in. -- AussieLegend ( ✉) 22:13, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
OK - when you ask other editors, you should use language which in no way whatever can be construed as showing your own opinion, and, ideally, you should include editors who definitely do not always agree with your own position, but who are regarded as generally reliable impartial folks on the issue at hand. I hope this clarifies things a bit :). Collect ( talk) 22:34, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
AussieLegend, if you make claims about me that I dispute, I am going to dispute those claims. I do not have to wait for others to weigh in on your mischaracterization of me and/or my post. I felt that Collect initially ignored you (he was editing Wikipedia long after you pinged him), and I took that as him not seeing the matter as seriously as you do. Collect stated above, "CANVASS basically stipulates that either you have a strong notion as to the views of the person or persons contacted, or that you give a non-neutral statement of the RfC." And like I noted, "That you took 'Can you support Masem's suggestions?' as me asking them to support any of the suggestions is your interpretation. If I had stated 'Can or can't you support Masem's suggestions?', I highly doubt you would have taken issue. But there was no need whatsoever to state 'Can or can't you support Masem's suggestions?' Some grammar experts, for example, believe that stating 'whether or not' is redundant; you can simply stop at 'whether.' I stopped at 'can.' When I pinged them, it was without any assumption of what they would state [...] WP:Canvass, as made clear at that guideline and on its talk page, is about knowingly pulling in editors to influence a discussion in one's favor. I did not know or suspect that Betty Logan felt this way. And I felt it was better that I ask for their opinions on this dispute out in the open on this talk page instead of at their talk pages."
As seen here, Betty Logan did not state that she took issue with my wording or support the implication that I canvassed her. She simply suggested that it would be better if I use different wording, and it's clear that she suggested that because you dislike my wording. She was also clear that we do not always agree. In fact, there are various times we have disagreed. The two us disagreeing is not a rare site. We even disagree on this spoiler matter; in other words, we are not in full agreement. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:15, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
And as for adding pinging to the guideline, this dispute is an excellent example of the gray area that Collect noted above, and is why pinging is unlikely to be added to the guideline. At least not without careful wording. I maintain that this is the case since editors ping others to support their viewpoint in discussions all the time, including with regard to disruptive editors. I certainly ping editors to discussions involving disruptive editors all the time, and so does just about everyone else on Wikipedia. In these cases, it is almost always clear that we are pinging them for backup. When it comes to cases like the aforementioned RfC, biasing the discussion was never on my mind, and I don't believe that I did bias it. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
This policy has been used in an attempt to restrict my right to defend myself against the serious accusation of wikistalking. For the record, the accusation is totally unfounded. When the accusation was made, I naturally sought comment from four other editors who, in my view, could verify that my accuser was involved in longstanding disputes. The details are not so important, because the main point is there is an accusation and a need to defend it. How surprised I was to find that this policy was used to critise me for seeking comments from other editors involved in the dispute. The right to a defense is a fundamental of law. Even criminals have the right to defend themselves. Travelmite ( talk) 05:14, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Again, you ignore the fact that no evidence is more glaring than the black and white evidence that diffs provide. Getting back to the main point, your proposal basically results in ineffectual canvassing. The black and white of diffs cannot lie. I don't see how you linked a newbie being warned and them coming to the (misguided) conclusion that the system was biassed. Seriously, the more I read of your arguments the more it seems like you're clutching at straws. Blackmane ( talk) 03:26, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Two parts of WP:APPNOTE appear to contradict:
How can an editor have participated in previous discussions on the same topic, and yet be "uninvolved"? What if the previous discussion was, like, yesterday? ― Mandruss ☎ 13:39, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
As seen here, I disagree with the following order by Jc37:
______
I disagree with that order because when it comes to contacting other editors for opinions, using the article talk page and/or contacting WikiProjects are more common actions than heading straight to the Village pump and/or other noticeboards, and because the "central location" bullet point is specifically about "discussions that have a wider impact such as policy or guideline discussions." In most cases, contacting editors for opinions is not about matters that may impact a policy or guideline; they are usually more so about article matters than specifically policy or guideline matters. Furthermore, editors should usually try to settle matters at the article talk page before seeking opinions via WP:Dispute resolution. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 02:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
That stated, in my experience, using "the talk page of one or more directly related articles" to contact editors for opinions is less practiced than going to the talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects, or going to the Village pump or other relevant noticeboard. So I'm okay with the "The talk page of one or more directly related articles." bullet point coming third. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 02:33, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
I made this compromise edit. Per above, I think this order is more true to practice. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 22:37, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I would like to notify those who identify as RC Patrollers of proposals at the 2016 Community Wishlist Survey that have something to do with RC patrolling, frankly including one I have proposed. Would this be considered vote stacking? I'm not telling them to vote for anything -- just to see them and make up their own mind, since it's an area of their concern. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 19:54, 5 December 2016 (UTC)