The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Which of the following best describes the reliability of the reporting of the South China Morning Post (SCMP)? The South China Morning Post has been cited around 7,000 times on Wikipedia per scmp.com   

• Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail Hemiauchenia ( talk) 23:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Responses (SCMP)

• Option 1/2 The SCMP is the major English-language newspaper of record in Hong Kong. I would consider it a reliable source without exemption prior to 2016. However, after the 2016 purchase by the Alibaba Group and the continually deteriorating political situation in Hong Kong. I think caution is necessary for contentious topics like the Hong Kong protests. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 23:24, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I have changed by vote to a 1/2 to make my opinion more clear. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 16:21, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1: I have not changed my opinion on the reliability of SCMP. It would be common sense to attribute any claims it makes around its reporting of the Hong Kong disturbances. I haven't seen any change in the nature of SCMP's general reporting. The statement in the Atlantic article that "the use of terms like riot and rampage that often made it into the final versions of stories recounting protests" reminded me of similar statement that FAIR has made about the New York Times and Washington Post reporting on the various US protests. Regarding Lin Nguyen, which seems to have been the starting point for this discussion, the SCMP admitted its mistake and removed the five articles which had been located in the Opinion section of the paper. It said it had "reviewed and strengthened its verification process for submissions in response to the Daily Beast revelations". Seems like a sensible response. Burrobert ( talk) 00:32, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@ Burrobert: I brought up Lin Nguyen since the entry for Der Spiegel does say it's generally notable but to avoid articles by Claas Relotius specifically. WhisperToMe ( talk) 19:53, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Right-o. Yes a similar note for SCMP would be fine. Burrobert ( talk) 00:45, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

• Option 2 per Hemiauchenia. ~ HAL 333 00:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2 more or less along the lines of what Hemiauchenia argued. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1.5 (reliable with caveats) per The New York Times' March 2018 article which says that In effect, Alibaba has taken Hong Kong’s English-language paper of record since the days of British rule and put it on the leading edge of China’s efforts to project soft power abroad. Every day, The Post churns out dozens of articles about China, many of which seek to present a more positive view of the country. As it does, critics say it is moving away from independent journalism and pioneering a new form of propaganda. It also notes that there have been acts of self-censorship to avoid annoying the CCP. Still, from what I gather, it has many of the best journalists in HK. I have noted that some, possibly undue pro-China views, have been sourced to SCMP, such as a curious chapter detailing "Hong Kong's hatred of mainlanders" and xenophobia as an undercurrent for the protests. -- Pudeo ( talk) 08:02, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Bigotry against people from the mainland and Mandarin-speakers is a well-known issue in Hong Kong. SCMP writing about it doesn't undermine their reliability as a source. Are we going to start deprecating sources because they cover issues that some editors perceive as being "pro-China"? In case anyone needs reminding, this is an international encyclopedia, not an American encyclopedia, or a European encyclopedia, etc. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 16:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

• Tricky, this. Pre-2016 is OK, of course, but post 2016 it's also reliable for a lot of things, just nothing related to China or politics. I guess that's a 2? Guy ( help!) 08:52, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Probably Option 2 per Hemiauchenia. OhKayeSierra ( talk) 09:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2, more or less, per above. feminist (talk) 13:27, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2 for post-2016 articles, per above. There isn't evidence that the paper literally makes things up, however, we should also avoid sources that are turning into state propaganda outlets, "soft" or otherwise. Lack of press freedom in Hong Kong will also impact the reliability of other Hong Kong based media. ( t · c) buidhe 13:32, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2 Cynistrategus ( talk) 14:47, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 — one of the most important newspapers for any editor or educated person trying to stay informed about global events and opinions. So far, criticism presented here amounts to an Atlantic article [17] from a journalist who complains SCMP editors toned down pro-protestor language in his submission to the paper (what a surprise), and one more article [18] from a NYT reporter who was reciprocally thrown out of China [19] [20], and who has pushed the conspiratorial view of the Trump administration that the WHO is too close to China [21]. More broadly, bringing up the SCMP at the RSP is yet one more example of the list's mission creep. At this rate Wikipedia will end up treating all domestic and international news sources that fall outside of the center of the quite narrow Anglo-American political spectrum as suspect, or unusable. That's a devastating development for what is supposed to be a global encyclopedia. Pinging Blueboar since they've had valuable commentary on this issue in the past. - Darouet ( talk) 15:19, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I don’t know the source at all, so I can not comment on specifics. In general, deprecation should be reserved for clear cut, “worst of the worst” situations. Even “we could do better” level sources should not be deprecated. That said, if we CAN do better, we should. Blueboar ( talk) 16:13, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I have a high opinion of the SCMP and labelling it option 2 for "additional considerations apply" is more a reflection of the ongoing political situation in Hong Kong than the SCMP itself. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 15:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 SCMP is a well regarded international newspaper. Being owned by a mainland company means that of course there is going to be a bias towards the Chinese government, but as of now no sources seriously dispute that the paper is "generally factual." Maybe in a few years if Beijing continues to tighten its grip on Hong Kong and its press outlets in a demonstrable way the SCMP should be downgraded, but as of now a bias towards the Chinese government doesn't change that fact that it is generally reliable. Zoozaz1 ( talk) 16:17, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 I feel that the SCMP is a trustworthy source. — BillHPike ( talk, contribs) 17:16, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1: I have worked quite extensively on the protests articles and I don't think I have seen cases where SCMP is outrageously inaccurate or biased. Their factual reporting is generally reliable. Their opinion articles, however, are mostly written by biased, unreliable, blantantly lying pro-Beijing columnists. OceanHok ( talk) 19:29, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
  • @ OceanHok: Perennial sources also considers opinion columns, so if you don't mind please share examples of highly biased columns. That way the entry can add caution against using such columns. WhisperToMe ( talk) 19:43, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@ WhisperToMe: Wait, perennial sources tells us what opinions can be referenced? Who has the audacity to prescribe acceptable opinion here? It's one thing to rate the factual reliability of sources, but saying which opinions are acceptable is something else entirely. Some editors may like the opinion columns of their favorite newspaper of record, some editors may think those columns are complete garbage. WP:RSN really has no business declaring some opinions good and others bad. What matters for opinion is WP:WEIGHT. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 16:30, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@ Thucydides411: This came up in Talk:Alec_Holowka/Archive_1 where I had suggested including an opinion from a columnist of RT but other editors rejected the idea because RT was unconsidered unreliable for controversial topics, straight reporting and opinion pieces alike. WhisperToMe ( talk) 17:42, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

There are quite a lot of examples. Some of their views and thoughts are hugely troubling to me. In many cases, they were following the rheotic of the HKSAR government. Not saying it is not ok to support the government, but in most cases, they were just discrediting the opposition without solid proof, or they intentionally discussed only one side of the problem.

• [22] [23]: These two shows a completely ignorant columnist condemning the idea of "lam chau", without even understanding what it means.
• [24]: This one states that the "rioters" "lies" but didn't address the issues behind the police's lack of credibility or discussed why the police's claims were not accepted.
• [25]: the title itself is ridiculous enough already. They also followed the rhetoic that the voting stations will be vandalised by the protesters (which obviously didn't happened on that day).
• [26]: calling opposition lawmakers clowns without recognising that the pro-Beijing bloc is exercising tyranny of the majority as there is no universal suffrage for the LegCo election.
• [27]: Supporting Carrie Lam to delay the election because it gives time for people to "cool off". The way to "take a break from politics" is to postpone an election?
• [28]: And what happened on the next day was that the protesters and the ethnic minorities were offering support to each other when the protesters passed through Chungking Mansions.
• Therefore, with so many problematic statements, I find it is really hard to consider these opinion pieces as usable. OceanHok ( talk) 09:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1. The issues raised above should be kept in mind when using the SCMP for claims about the protests and other sensitive political issues. But for factual reporting it's generally reliable. — Granger ( talk · contribs) 19:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 This RfC is ridiculous. Most newspapers have political biases and reliability issues. The only cases which are worth recording are those where they routinely engage in parody and fantasy : The Onion; National Inquirer; The Southport Times and the like. Andrew🐉( talk) 20:22, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
  • @ Andrew Davidson: 1. Wikipedia:Perennial sources does call out specific cases of scandal like Claas Relotius (Der Spiegel is otherwise generally reliable), and 2. there has been a recent major change in Hong Kong law (though it can potentially affect all HK outlets), and 3. SCMP is such a common news source that Perennial sources should address it. WhisperToMe ( talk) 20:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1/2 as a general reader I've found their articles informative and fair, but fully accept the need for caution. A bit better than other [former?] papers of record, The Times and The Daily Telegraph. . . dave souza, talk 20:27, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1: As I mentioned in the pre-RfC discussion, the SCMP has been and is the newspaper of among the most reliable sources in Asia. It is still Hong Kong’s English-language paper of record. The factual accuracy (as opposed to its tone/bias) of its news reporting hasn’t been directly challenged by other RSes.
  The NYT and Atlantic articles discuss a change in bias towards Beijing. However, a change in bias itself doesn’t mean that the factual reporting is less reliable (cf. WP:BIASED). Whether its fact-checking and accuracy deteriorates as the situation in HK press freedom changes is speculation about the future. If/when that does happen, then the SCMP should be revisited as an RS. — MarkH₂₁ ^talk 20:47, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 Even if there may be bias on a small subset of topics and cases of problematic opinion pieces, it would require quite a stretch to argue that SCMP is anything other than "generally reliable for factual reporting." Bzweebl ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2 Additional considerations apply. Most of the time SCMP is a reliable source, but the impact of the direction management is pushing and the new Hong Kong security law need to be taken into account when using it. -- RaiderAspect ( talk) 12:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1/2 The South China Morning Post is used as way for newspapers such as The Washington Post to know what is going on in Hong Kong. I have found that [29] a search in the WP's articles yields many citations of the SCMP. Nevertheless, it should be noted that there is limited freedom of speech in Hong Kong right now and the newspaper has been called "increasingly pro-Beijing" by the NYT [30]. P,TO 19104 ( talk) ( contribs) 13:20, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1. I don't want to call this discussion a waste of time, but this certainly comes to close to being one. Remember per WP:NEWSORG "News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors)" and "Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis." That guidance is already enough to go on in this instance. -- Calidum 15:00, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 with all usual cavaets on a case-by-case basis. No indication that there's enough problems of China's interference in the paper's reporting to be concerned that it makes them unreliable, in fact when I have to use them (this in the article of technology and video games) they certainly aren't speaking in a manner I'd consider as a mouthpiece for China. Obviously if an article feels fishy, use caution but that's true for all RSes even to the NYTimes, so I don't think option 2 is appropriate here. -- Masem ( t) 15:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1-2, possibly split into 2 entries like Fox News and The Guardian on the main WP:RSP list. SCMP is a reputable newspaper with strict editorial control - educators on all sides of the HK political debate trust them as the written standard of Hong Kong English). However, it is also known in HK that SCMP has always had a pro-government bias, whether that government was British Hong Kong or Chinese Hong Kong. The Alibaba takeover has exacerbated their pro-Beijing bias but so far I don't see much of SCMP twisting facts to suit their agenda. I think we should put SCMP in the "reliable" category for factual reporting, but caveat all opinion sections in the same way we split Fox, Guardian, and other broadsheets with a known editorial bias. Deryck C. 19:09, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1, because they have done good factual reporting of current events in Hong Kong. Félix An ( talk) 22:09, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 2 with the caveat that we aren’t yet able to judge the impact the new situation (national security law etc) will have on SCMP’s ability to produce high quality journalism (especially investigative journalism). I think that this discussion is premature. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 00:57, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Update over the last two weeks I've watched SCMP closely, the only major difference I can detect is a large shift in their tone when covering Taiwan. This makes sense given that Taiwan is the core national security concern of the PRC/CCP. As a result of this shift I would consider them a less reliable source when it comes to Taiwan but the unreliability is coming from the language they choose to use and the facts they choose to disclose rather than active disinformation or anything truly disqualifying like that. Obviously this effects stories about politics, defense, and the like more than a story about a new restaurant or something like that. However I would say additional considerations apply to coverage of Taiwan. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 16:37, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 for their factual reporting, seems to be reasonable accurate. Any opinion columns are subject to WP:RSOPINION. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1, it's a good source and it is almost reliable.-- Ruiyu Shen 03:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 per OceanHok on news articles. Op-eds should be treated in the same manner as those of WaPo, etc. per WP:RSOPINION. We have not allowed Jeff Bezo's acquisition of the WaPo to affect our assessment of its reliability, there should be no difference vis-a-vis Alibaba and the SCMP. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 14:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

  That's not a fair comparison, because RS say that Bezos has not interfered with the operations of WaPo, whereas reliable sources say that Alibaba has affected the reporting of this source. ( t · c) buidhe 20:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 per MarkH21 and Bzweebl. The publication's (supposed) new pro-Beijing position has not affected the reliability of its factual reporting. KyleJoan ^talk 06:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1: The SCMP is one of the most reliable sources there is on China. Its reporting typically reflects a much deeper level of understanding about Chinese politics and society than reporting in major Western new sources. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 16:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1: I used SCMP frequently in a professional capacity related to coverage of the Hong Kong protests; I was admittedly frustrated with their tone at some points, as someone who supported the protests, but I would be lying if I said I noticed or suspected any glaring revisions or omissions of facts when it came down to it. A good editor should be able to strip away any latent editorializing tone when present and be fine using SCMP for reference. WhinyTheYounger ( talk) 19:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 - No evidence has even been presented that there are any issues with reliability. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 23:05, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1/2 I agree with Hemiauchenia. wikitigresito ( talk) 11:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 - Despite what I would have guessed, SCMP has been fairly accurate on their reporting and fairly neutral. I don't think the National Security Law will affect it because they can just move legal headquarters somewhere else; Alibaba's ownership is worrying but it still is the best non-biased source on China out there, at least for now. TheKaloo ( talk) 17:14, 8 August 2020
• Comment This is a bit of an odd discussion. For the SCMP to be ruled unreliable, we'd need to be guided by experts' views on the topic - e.g. expert media commentators who state that the SCMP is no longer reliable, etc. I can't see any such sources being provided above. From what I've seen in following Hong Kong from afar, there are long running concerns that the SCMP sometimes self-censors itself and has a long running history (including during British rule) of leaning towards the government line. But I haven't seen recent sources stating it's no longer reliable. Nick-D ( talk) 03:49, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 - From among the publications on Asian-specific topics covered by various outlets, the SCMP's coverage is usually some of the best. They tend to separate personal positions and facts fairly well, and I'd go as far to say that there are plenty of publications that ought to learn a thing or two from that. Goodposts ( talk) 19:07, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 per Horse Eye Jack. I note that SCMP pretty much has been the newspaper of record in Hong Kong. From 2016 to 2020, after Alibaba acquired SCMP, there was little to no change in the general reliability of SCMP. (I note that in its news articles, if Alibaba is mentioned anywhere in its news articles, SCMP goes out of its way to point out that Alibaba is the owner of SCMP.) However, given the recent passage of the new security law in Hong Kong, it is currently not possible to assess whether SCMP's reliability will be affected following the law being passed; I opine that SCMP will continue to maintain its reliability (unless evidence to the contrary is discovered); however, SCMP is likely to shift (or at least face much more greater pressure to move) to a more pro-China stance, but not to the point where its reliability is affected (unless again opposing evidence is found). JaventheAldericky ( talk) 20:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 Option 1|2 (so far) 1 until 2016 for news stories, more caution required after that. Opinions, as always, should be attributed. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 before the 1997 Handover of Hong Kong. Option 1.5 until the 2016 purchase by Alibaba. Option 3 from 1 July 2020 due to the new Hong Kong "Security" law, which is in fact more about ending free expression [31]. This [32] is a sufficiently major change in their environment that it would be unwise to assume they will be able to continue their past practices. Adoring nanny ( talk) 05:12, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

• Stop your WP:SOAPBOXing (more about ending free expression) and actually produce a link which comments explicitly on the SCMP. Neither of your BBC links does that. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 16:57, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

• Option 2 and Option 3 - It is a mouthpiece of CCP now. SCMP was a reliable source, but not since it is owned by Alibaba, which is the most Pro-Chinese group in the world after communist party of China. [33] NavjotSR ( talk) 16:49, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1/2 per Hemiauchenia – advise caution/judge case-by-case post-2016. ─ ReconditeRodent «  talk · contribs » 15:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2 - indispensable but problematic. — Charles Stewart (talk) 20:54, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion (SCMP)

I think Burrobert raises a good point regarding analogous biases in American papers of record; I'm reminded of allegations in John L. Hess's memoir that NYT systematically privileged the US government's perspectives in its coverage of the Vietnam war and myriad other issues during his career there (and this was published before the Second Iraq War). Nonetheless, I think that with the better way to address these issues is to treat papers of record with a greater degree of scrutiny, rather than twisting what "generally reliable" means. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree that we should treat newspapers of record (and all newspapers) with serious scrutiny: the New York Times' coverage of the Iraq War is an extraordinary demonstration of the importance of that principle. However, as I note above, what we've actually been doing at the perennial sources list is casting doubt or prohibiting the use of newspapers in the United States (e.g. the Grayzone) or internationally (e.g. Xinhua, RT, the Times of India) whose political or national orientations fall outside the narrow center of Anglo-American politics. Sometimes it's unclear whether consensus was even achieved for a given outlet [34]. Furthermore it's bizarre to watch national outlets come under attack here, at an international encyclopedia, as respective governments find themselves in increased geopolitical conflict with the United States. It's both within our mandate and power as editors to be able to understand these conflicts, not participate in them ourselves. - Darouet ( talk) 15:53, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

The problem with The Grayzone is that it has this strange "anti-imperialist" worldview where everything that western governments do is bad and anything that Maduro / Assad / Putin / Xi does is good. Of course neither of these perspectives is true, and nor is their reverse. I would support calling a RfC on Voice of America, Radio Free Asia, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Radio y Televisión Martí and Alhurra as these are directly controlled by the US govt, and I am unsure about their editorial independence. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 16:03, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@ Hemiauchenia: I'd be happy with an RFC of all of those US government-controlled publications WhisperToMe ( talk) 18:19, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Given Grayzone responded to being depreciated with a "You can't handle the truth!" meltdown that included calling Katherine Maher a "veteran regime-change operative" it is pretty obvious they operate in a different reality to the rest of us. Compared to the platonic ideal of a Reliable Source everything is going to fall short. That doesn't mean every source is equally (un)reliable though. -- RaiderAspect ( talk) 12:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

We deprecated the newspaper without consensus on the basis of a few flimsy articles from much weaker sources, and flimsy reasoning from editors who didn't demonstrate even a modicum of the competence of the journalists they were criticizing. The close was particularly egregious. As for their reaction to being deprecated, much found in their two articles on the topic is excellent [35] [36]. - Darouet ( talk) 14:49, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Seriously? You’re going to lay it all on the line for TGZ? Please tell me this guy is pulling my leg and isnt going nuclear over a shit-tier source. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 00:57, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

The deprecation close [37] was a farce, and relied upon opinion pieces or bizarre links like these [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43]. The closest things we find to real sources arguing for deprecation in that discussion include a complaint from a "professor of geography" [44], another from The Daily Beast [45] (which our own list calls "a biased or opinionated source"), and lastly an article about the contents of a conversation that Max Blumenthal had with Karen Greenberg on the politically sensitive topic of torture in the US and Israel [46]. Importantly, from the perspective of our own governance, the close did not conform to any consensus that emerged from the deprecation discussion. - Darouet ( talk) 15:05, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

So you agree that TGZ is a shit-tier source and you're just quibbling about procedure? Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 15:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't say that and I wouldn't be caught dead using such language here. In agreement with the rough consensus of the RfC discussion [47], the Grayzone is an opinionated source that is usable on Wikipedia, and in certain instances, where its views or reporting have been contested, it should be used with attribution. - Darouet ( talk) 15:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's a good example of why news sources like SCMP are important in giving a global (as opposed to American or Western European) perspective on issues. Compare these two headlines:

• "Hong Kong third wave: three labs picked to help mainland China medical team conduct mass Covid-19 testing in the city": SCMP
• "China’s Offer to Help With Virus Testing Spooks Hong Kong: Infections have surged in the city, and its labs have been going at full speed. But wariness of the Chinese Communist Party [sic] runs deep." New York Times

The SCMP does mention criticism of the mainland's involvement in coronavirus testing in Hong Kong (there's an image of protesters about 3/4 of the way through the article), but the focus of the article is on how the testing is being carried out. The NY Times article approaches the issue entirely from the perspective of worries about the influence of the "Chinese Communist Party" [sic]. This is something one very often encounters in Western reporting on China - there's a very strong political angle on all the reporting. For issues such as this, I have much more trust that the SCMP will provide a relatively neutral and comprehensive view of the topic. That's why it's important not to deprecate the SCMP for political issues and issues involving China. That's precisely where it is most valuable, as a reasonable and well-informed counterpoint to sometimes distorted reporting in Western media. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 16:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Not one person has voted option 4, therefore your contention that anyone is trying to deprecate the SCMP is preposterous. Please make arguments about reality rather than constructing fanciful straw men to tilt at. Also whats with the sic? I’m not seeing an error in Chinese Communist Party. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 17:30, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

A fair number of people have voted to discourage use of the SCMP for topics related to Hong Kong. Those are precisely the topics in which the SCMP's reporting is more extensive and neutral than that of newspapers like the New York Times. I'm arguing that it is in precisely these contentious topics that usage of SCMP is important for a globally balanced, neutral view. As for the [sic], the name of the ruling party of China is the Communist Party of China, not the Chinese Communist Party. I see that the Wikipedia article was moved a few weeks ago (which might be in line with WP:COMMONNAME, given how often Western sources get the name wrong), and that you voted for the move. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 17:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@ Thucydides411: "Communist Party of China" and "Chinese Communist Party" have pretty much the same meaning, just different ways of translating it. The CCP prefers the first translation but most third party entities prefer the second. WhisperToMe ( talk) 18:43, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't want the discussion about the name of the CPC to overshadow my actual point above - which is to compare reporting by the NYT and SCMP. The two articles I cite are illustrative of a trend, in which many Western news sources take strong political angles on Chinese topics. In the above NYT example, plans to offer coronavirus tests to every person in Hong Kong become primarily a story about Hong Kongers being spooked by the CPC. The SCMP covers the issue in a much saner way, as primarily a story about coronavirus testing, that also involves some protests. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 20:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Your core argument was "That's why it's important not to deprecate the SCMP for political issues and issues involving China.” despite nobody voting or arguing for WP:DEPRECATE. The SCMP and NYT might frame a story differently but they’re both reliable, can you imagine if there was no difference in framing between reliable sources? Everyone would write almost exactly the same story and we’d all be worse off for it. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 17:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

With Newsmax gaining a much broader audience, I think it needs to be reconsidered as a reliable source, their coverage of this election differs from other MSM such as CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, Etc. I believe that they offer a different perspective of current events that is widely ignored by other reliable sources. I believe that this perspective is important and should be considered reliable for election related news at a minimum.they no longer represent only fringe viewpoints as their viewership has increased post election. Here is a source that gives numbers https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2020/11/newsmax-tv-surpasses-fox-business-cnbc-key-ratings-newsreal-blog/ BlackBird1008 ( talk) 01:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Newsmax

Which option best describes the reliability of Newsmax?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

( t · c) buidhe 10:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Survey: Newsmax

• Deprecate: "High viewership" does not equate to reliability.

1. "their coverage of this election differs from other MSM such as CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, Etc." - That would be because Newsmax is a propaganda outlet unconcerned with factual accuracy.
2. "I believe that they offer a different perspective of current events that is widely ignored by other reliable sources." - Your belief is your belief, but Newsmax as an outlet produces and promotes falsehoods with shocking regularity and disdain for human life and the consequences of spreading false information, such as their promotion of anti-vaccination propaganda. [57]
3. "and should be considered reliable for election related news at a minimum" - Ahh, now we're getting to it. It's the spreading of disinformation about the 2020 United States presidential election that you're wanting?
4. "they no longer represent only fringe viewpoints." - They may repeat what other parts of the extreme right-wing WP:FRINGE of American politics repeat, but that does not make their false claims, propaganda, or disinformation WP:RELIABLE.

Given the sheer unreliability of Newsmax, it should probably be in the same Deprecated category as Breitbart News, The Daily Caller, Daily Mail, and The Epoch Times. IHateAccounts ( talk) 01:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

NewsGuard's analysis is not positive. [58] Schazjmd  (talk) 02:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

"Proceed with caution: This website severely violates basic journalistic standards." Yikes indeed. IHateAccounts ( talk) 02:52, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Do you have some better sources than media matters? PackMecEng ( talk) 03:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Following up on Schazjmd's comment, Ad Fontes Media ( https://www.adfontesmedia.com/interactive-media-bias-chart-2/) rates the reliability of Newsmax at 31.76. For comparison, similarly positioned sources on Wikipedia that are already deprecated include the following:

1. RT / Russia Today: 30.65
2. OANN: 29.91
3. Epoch Times: 37.35
4. Zero Hedge: 32.53
5. Breitbart: 27.74
6. Daily Caller: 27.73

I know that Ad Fontes is listed as "should not be used in article space" because it is self-published, but it may be valuable information for analysis here. IHateAccounts ( talk) 03:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Right but do we have other RS calling Newsmax those things. I personally like adontes for bias reports, not so much for reliability personally. PackMecEng ( talk) 03:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@ PackMecEng: the poster of this (who moved it over from Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) does not appear to understand wikipedia policy on sourcing, but there is a larger problem in that Newsmax - despite sharing similarities in both lack of credibility and a pattern of propagating falsehoods - is sitting at "no consensus" level and looking at the last discussion [59], @ JzG: made the excellent observation that this status is because "what that means is that it's a crappy source but conservatives like it, basically." Even in 2013, it was looked at as unreliable [60] and I think at this point it would serve Wikipedia well to settle this status with the other sources it is so highly similar to that are already deprecated. IHateAccounts ( talk) 04:01, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

My point is editor opinion alone is not enough to deprecate a source. We need secondary sources giving examples and backing it up or it boils down to a WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument. PackMecEng ( talk) 04:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

all I want is this to be discussed because they are the only new source that is truly covering the “other” side of this election and they are gaining in popularity. What IHateAccounts points out is that they don’t like there coverage of current events so it must be disinformation and propaganda. The only exception that I would buy into at this time is that they are not a reliable source for anything related to vaccine because they have peddled stories with questionable claims. To blanket state that they are wrong does in fact boil down to a WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I think the other MSM gets it wrong on a lot of things but that doesn’t make them an unreliable source. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 04:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, Daily Beast: "An even more overt suggestion of a deep-state plot to infect the president, however, came from Greg Kelly, a former Fox News personality who now hosts a show on Newsmax TV, the little-watched right-wing cable network run by longtime Trump pal Chris Ruddy." [62] The issue is that Newsmax is an unreliable source, that promotes conspiracy theories and other falsehoods. The fact that it's flown under the radar with few discussions until now is probably, as JzG suggested, because it was already listed as a crappy source and most reasonable editors stayed away from it, but simply leaving it there isn't wise given what it does and its lack of journalistic integrity. IHateAccounts ( talk) 04:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

See that is kind of what I mean here. Do we have a source that does not require an asterisk when we use them. Both the Guardian and Daily Beast have the biased or opinionated source tag. PackMecEng ( talk) 04:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I’d urge someone to pull something off their home page that is truly not factual. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 04:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@ BlackBird1008: There are several issues with your claims, starting with your lack of understanding of wikipedia policy, and your continued attempts to portray reliable secondary sources as "sides". To make something perfectly clear, though: my objection to Newsmax is not because I "don't like" them, my objection is that - again, just as with Breitbart News, The Daily Caller, Daily Mail, The Epoch Times - they are factually unreliable. IHateAccounts ( talk) 04:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

FrontPageMag is itself a discredited source; the fact that something has a particular level of viewership or readership has nothing to do with reliability. Lots of people can all be wrong. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 02:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@ NorthBySouthBaranof: I’m not making the argument that they should be considered reliable because of their viewership, merely I’m arguing that they should be reconsidered because they are becoming a bigger player in the news market. I only used frontpage as a reference because Newsmax had the same article on their site and I thought it would be wrong to post their own article, Neilsons ratings put it above those other outlets BlackBird1008 ( talk) 04:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

You might find it helpful to review WP:RS if you haven't read it in a while. "Number of people who read/view a source" is not an indicator of reliability. Instead, we focus on things such as the publisher's reputation for fact-checking, policies and practices related to correcting errors, and similar mechanisms and policies. ElKevbo ( talk) 04:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I’m not arguing that it’s is a factor in its reliability, merely pointing out that this discussion should be had because they are becoming a bigger player. WP:RSP has them listed as "No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply". BlackBird1008 ( talk) 05:08, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@ BlackBird1008: No, you're pretty transparently trying to argue that Newsmax should somehow be considered "reliable" merely because it is rising in ratings, which is an illegitimate argument. Further, Newsmax is currently (and has a history of) blatantly trying to spread falsehoods [63]. It appears that when you say "the only new source that is truly covering the “other” side of this election", the "other side" you are referring to is simply false information:

"On Newsmax, voter fraud innuendo is everywhere. Conspiracy theory chatter is constant. And perhaps most importantly, Joe Biden is not the president-elect. The channel is tapping into a real vein of rage on the right."

"Over the weekend Newsmax pointedly said it had not called the race -- which was a meaningless claim since the channel doesn't have a decision desk. But the channel's hosts keep repeating this claim anyway, and it is sticking. If Fox is merely dabbling in election denialism, Newsmax is doubling down on it. "

"Taking a big picture view, Newsmax's sudden gains are about demand meeting supply. There is a demand for content that swears Biden is not president-elect; that Trump is not a loser; that Trump might even win a second term. Al Schmidt, the Republican city commissioner of Philadelphia, touched on the demand side when he told CNN's John Berman: "One thing I can't comprehend is how hungry people are to consume lies and to consume information that is not true." Think of Newsmax as the supply side."

I think it would be an absolutely terrible thing for Wikipedia to suddenly pronounce that outlets that peddle in false information were suddenly "reliable" simply because they had seen a ratings boost. IHateAccounts ( talk) 16:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@ IHateAccounts: I guess we will have to agree to disagree because, Joe Biden is in fact, not the president elect until the electoral college votes (although I’m not opposed to articles referencing him as that), the allegations of voter fraud are neither valid or invalid because they have yet to be settled in court. To be perfectly clear, I believe Joe Biden has won this election so this is not some campaign to try to change that. You cannot say that readers and viewers are consuming lies and information that is not true when the outcome of those "lies" has yet to be officially determined. My goal in all of this was to make sure that the election article can have sourced information from newsmax to cover the disputes by the Trump campaign because they are covering it in depth regardless of how one feels about them. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 16:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Again, you need to read wikipedia policies thoroughly. The things that Newsmax is trying to promote are all things that have been fact checked and quite thoroughly debunked by actual reliable sources. A "foot in the door" gambit, false equivalence arguments, and other attempts to try to shoehorn in Newsmax's absolutely unreliable and WP:FRINGE promotion of conspiracy theories and false information do not serve wikipedia well. Your assertion that "Joe Biden is in fact, not the president elect..." is not consistent with Wikipedia policies regarding sourcing and indicates that your goal is to insert factually false information into Wikipedia. IHateAccounts ( talk) 16:58, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

No, that is a complete misrepresentation of what I am trying to do, at no time did I say I would try to include false information. Failure to document the legal challenges of this election would be considered revisionism by omission. Simply calling them false and disinformation is not accurate because nothing has been settled. After the court cases are completed, then we can say factually and with certainty that the fraud claims were false if the courts rule that way. I’m not trying to change any article, I’m trying to find a path to add to it with a source that doesn’t have a predetermined outcome already decided. And finally , regardless of a Wikipedia consensus or what any RS says, per the constitution, Joe Biden is not the president elect until the electoral college votes, that cannot be disputed, but like I said, I’m not trying to change that in any article because that has already been decided by consensus. (my last word because this discussion is going nowhere) BlackBird1008 ( talk) 17:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@ BlackBird1008: You appear still to not have read the policies regarding reliable sources. There are numerous reliable sources that document the legal challenges being launched by the trump campaign quite accurately. Those legal challenges are well documented, to reliable sources that do not engage in the promotion of conspiracy theories or fraudulent claims, at 2020_United_States_presidential_election#Controversies and List of lawsuits relating to the 2020 United States presidential election to name just two pages. Attempting to include FALSE information by promoting as dubious an outlet as Newsmax would do a disservice to Wikipedia. IHateAccounts ( talk) 17:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Despite certain editors' desperate attempts to paint an incomplete or misleading picture, we have more coverage today. https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/15/media/fox-news-newsmax-competition/index.html

"Newsmax and One America News — which falsely claim Trump won the 2020 election — are two of the biggest beneficiaries of Trump and his supporters' ire. The channels' ratings have surged in recent days.

"Although Biden won the election — a fact Trump acknowledged Sunday — Greg Kelly, the highest-rated host on Newsmax, claims that Trump will prevail and that he will be president for another four years. The network has gone from about 100,000 viewers a day on a good day to about one million viewers per night for Kelly's show."

""Fox has never seen competition like this," CNN's chief media correspondent Brian Stelter said on "Reliable Sources" Sunday. "There is demand for a fictional universe.... Reliable news sources are mostly moving on to cover President-elect Biden. There is an entire constellation of websites and talk shows that are in denial just like Trump.""

The picture is pretty clear at this point. While Newsmax is seeing increased viewership, it is gaining viewers specifically because those viewers want to hear things that are at odds with facts and reality. IHateAccounts ( talk) 23:09, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I think your posts might be better-received here if you cited specific policies that you thought your interlocutor was arguing in contravention of, rather than saying repeatedly that they should "read Wikipedia policies" (of which there are hundreds of thousands of words of text, most of them totally irrelevant to the issue at hand). jp× g 11:58, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• Deprecate (Option 4) per IHateAccounts. They are a disinformation machine. -- Valjean ( talk) 02:55, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Depreciate. This paper lists them as a source that has repeatedly repeated false claims from another outlet ( The Washington Free Beacon, which should probably also be depreciated) without fact-checking or verification, apparently for ideological reasons, and without a retraction or follow-up when it was found to be false; it was also one of several similar sources publishing false claims about ISIS trying to cross the US-Mexico border, again with no fact-checking, verification, or followup when it was debunked. This source describes it as spreading fringe ideas in an effort to make them mainstream. This paper lists them as a misinformation source. This paper lists them in its "junk news" classification, which is defined as These sources deliberately publish misleading, deceptive or incorrect information purporting to be real news about politics, economics or culture. This content includes various forms of propaganda and ideologically extreme, hyper-partisan, or conspiratorial news and information. (Also, that paper seems like it would be extremely useful in future discussions.) This source similarly lists them as one of ten sources known for pro-mulgating political disinformation in Facebook. More recently, they have hawked a dietary supplement as a means of fighting COVID-19 while advising readers to avoid any vaccine because it would "change their DNA." I'm not seeing any evidence they have changed at all. (And, as others have said, Frontpagemag is itself a depreciated source, so its endorsement is not helpful.) -- Aquillion ( talk) 04:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Newsmax is "Fox's new challenger. President Trump's fans who don't think Fox News is right-wing enough have another option on cable and satellite: Newsmax TV."

That's from Brian Stelter at CNN, who is an extremely RS. This tells us a lot. Newsmax is even more extreme right-wing than Fox News has become under Trump.

Because Fox has dared to tell the truth about this election, Trump's supporters are moving to Newsmax and other fringe platforms, such as Parler, that will keep lying to them. These supporters are moving even further away from reliable sources that can correct their delusional thinking and debunk their favorite conspiracy theories.

This placement on the media fringes, far from the facts, tells us all we need to know. Bias is irrelevant to determining reliability, but extreme bias does affect it,, and here we have an example of the deleterious effects of extreme bias.

Full deprecation is fully deserved. -- Valjean ( talk) 05:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Deprecate Seems to be (at best) highly credulous. It clearly cannot be relied upon for basic facts. Slatersteven ( talk) 10:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 for election related coverage only at this time. More review will be needed for other topics. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 16:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Deprecate particularly for election coverage. Yes, they offer a different viewpoint -- alternative facts. O3000 ( talk) 17:05, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4 (deprecate). Newsmax lacks the "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" that is required of reliable sources. There is an affirmative requirement to demonstrate such a reputation, and I don't see anyone attempting to do that. More to the point, it's clear that Newsmax has a poor reputation for accuracy, which it sacrifices in favor of partisanship, and has at times gone so far as to publish false claims & misinformation, and even laundered outright propaganda. In no particular order:
  1. Aquillion presents reliable sources showing that Newsmax rushed to publish a false story without fact-checking it, "likely because the report made the Obama administration look bad" ( Silverman 2015); that Newsmax was likely patient zero in terms of pushing misleading and racist claims about so-called "anchor babies" ( Ignatow 2011); that Newsmax is a "junk news source" ( Narayanan et al. 2018; preprint); and that Newsmax is a "hyperpartisan disinformation source" and is "known for promulgating political disinformation" ( Barfar 2019).
  2. The Guardian describes Newsmax's promulgation of misinformation and lies about the 2020 US Presidential election, in part by one of their hosts who was fired from a Trump Administration job for racist, bigoted, and homophobic commentary ( Guardian 2020).
  3. CNN analyst Brian Stetler, who is reasonably reputable and an expert on the media landscape, writes: "On Newsmax, voter fraud innuendo is everywhere. Conspiracy theory chatter is constant."
  4. Newsmax was among the right-wing sites that unwittingly laundered foreign propaganda from a fictitious "contributor" ( Daily Beast 2020).
  5. Likewise, Newsmax launders Russian state propaganda, allowing RT (Russian state-run media) to pay to display content on its home page ( Wall Street Journal 2020).
• So the verdict of independent reliable sources seems pretty clear—Newsmax publishes partisan misinformation and falsehoods and has laundered foreign propaganda. That's a pretty steep hole to climb out of in terms of proving that it's a reliable source with "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (in fact, its reputation is demonstrably quite opposite), and I don't even see people really trying to prove its reliability. More just resorting to false-equivalency fallacies and soup-spitting criticisms of the sources showing Newsmax's unreliability. The goal of this project is to to build an accurate summary of human knowledge—not to ensure that everyone's ideological whims and biases get equal time—and I'd like someone to explain how using a "hyperpartisan disinformation source" gets us closer to that goal. MastCell  ^Talk 17:06, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Pay to display is a pretty audacious thing for a newspaper that was paid $20,000 a month to run propaganda for the Chinese government to complain about. Though don't think that is exclusive to the Wall Street Journal, the other two big broadsheets do the same. [64] And while we are on the subject of Russian propaganda supplements, The Daily Telegraph still seems to carry Russia: Beyond the Headlines. None of them are unreliable because of it, just the content inside. I'm not saying that NewsMax is reliable, I'm just saying that 'source X republished source Y which is unreliable' is generally a reason to have another look at source Y and is very rarely a problem with source X. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 17:34, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I think you're conflating two different things. Some major newspapers have run paid advertising inserts funded by the Chinese government, but that's different from presenting foreign propaganda in a way that makes it appear as if it might be actual site content. Otherwise we might as well say that all media are unreliable because they're paid to carry advertising, some of which is of dubious quality or accuracy. MastCell  ^Talk 22:55, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4, deprecate. Would really hope that they aren't being used now to source anything in the Wikipedia. Newsmax has a decades-long track record of false news. ValarianB ( talk) 18:11, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable The claim that Newsmax is unreliable has been substantiated sufficiently in my opinion. For factual information, it's simply too controversial. From a quick sample I did just now, it seems like they syndicate most content from newswires, so coverage of those events should be available elsewhere anyway. However, it may be useful for WP:RSOPINION related to politics with proper attribution. That fact that it is widely watched and read and has been endorsed by Trump and his campaign indicate that their viewpoints are not just held by tiny minorities. A blanket ban would be counter productive. ExcitedEngineer ( talk) 18:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Regarding WP:RSOPINION... It's called "RS"OPINION for a reason. It must still be from a RS, never an unreliable one. We do not balance opinions from RS with opinions from unreliable sources. "A prime example of this is opinion pieces in sources recognized as reliable." Unreliable sources can only be used in articles about themselves. -- Valjean ( talk) 21:09, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Whether we like it or not, unreliable people saying unreliable things in unreliable media are no longer at the fringe of political discourse. While a scientist that does not get published in a reliable source can easily be dismissed as holding an insignificant view, the underlying notion of WP:RSOPINION and WP:DUE that all majority and significant minority views can be found in reliable sources seems harder and harder to maintain for politics. If we want to be able to understand and explain historical events that have been influenced by opinions such as those published in Newsmax, we have to have access to these opinions. There doesn't have to be a conflict with WP:RS, as it states that opinion pieces and the like are almost never reliable for statements of fact, regardless of its publication. That it is a workable situation that has received community consensus is evidenced by the Fox News talk shows entry in WP:RSP. ExcitedEngineer ( talk) 22:19, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
      • But if something has not been mentioned in RS, we are supposed to ignore it completely. All our coverage of nonsense, pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, lies, false allegations, etc. is predicated on mention in RS, and we then use those sources, never the unreliable sources where they originally appeared. That's how content and quotes found in obscure and fringe unreliable sources can end up in our articles. Our job here is to document the "sum of human knowledge," by using RS, and only RS. That is the foundation of all our content. -- Valjean ( talk) 02:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4, rather obviously. VQuakr ( talk) 19:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4, the evidence provided clearly shows they do not have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and instead have one of publishing fabrications. There is no reason why we should risk reproducing misinformation from such low quality sources. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 19:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 - there is nothing to gain from using Newsmax as a source in Wikipedia, and much to lose, given its extensively documented history of fabrication, per the above - David Gerard ( talk) 21:34, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4: It's trash. soibangla ( talk) 00:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 plus a WP:NOTHERE editor. Grandpallama ( talk) 01:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 - deprecate - Per above. Grayfell ( talk) 03:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 deprecate because it often aggressively promotes wild, and sometimes harmful/dangerous, conspiracy theories without any real attempt to even give mainstream opinions due consideration. It is a very misleading and unreliable news source. I watched some videos by this news source and definitely agree with the reasoning by other editors, particularly MastCell, above re. why it should be deprecated. They are extremely biased to the point that they pay little attention to and have little regard for the truth or factual accuracy of what they present to their viewers. Normally I have been resistant to efforts to deprecate ‘right of centre’ news sources on WP so my strong opinion on this news source should be taken as a sign to just how terrible, extremist bias and even dangerous this news source is.-- Literaturegeek |  T@1k? 04:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (Deprecate) per above. Publishes fringe theories and outright falsehoods. Armadillo pteryx 11:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (Deprecate) per the arguments above, which I won't rehash. Cheers all, and happy Friday. Dumuzid ( talk) 12:14, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (deprecate). Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:13, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 Unreliable. I oppose the wide spread use of the deprecation process. It has gone too far and needs to be stopped. No evidence has been presented that Newsmax is being widely used by editors as a non-about self RS. Deprecation should only be used if editors would otherwise treat the source as reliable. Springee ( talk) 16:23, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
  • The fact that you see no widespread use is a tribute to the fact that we have many informed and reasonable editors. This is to make it official and prevent those who are not informed and reasonable from trying to use it. If no editors above were defending it, we would probably see no need for this step, but the embarrassing fact that it still has defenders means we need to put a stake through its heart. They need to get the message. This is not blacklisting; it can still be used on its own article. -- Valjean ( talk) 16:47, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
    • So you are doing this to right great wrongs? Springee ( talk) 17:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@ Springee: Your comment is definitely casting WP:ASPERSIONS. The reason multiple editors are supporting deprecation is because the editor who opened this discussion opened it by demanding that Newsmax "should be considered reliable for election related news at a minimum" based on fallacious arguments that rising viewership stats equate to reliability and that the promotion of WP:FRINGE conspiracy theories and false information counts as an equally valid "different viewpoint" to the facts as reported in Wikipedia:Reliable sources.

That you claim there's no evidence that Newsmax is being used or would be used, when this discussion was opened by someone demanding Newsmax be deemed reliable so that they could use it, is facially absurd. IHateAccounts ( talk) 17:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@ IHateAccounts: Once again, you completely miss the mark on my motives, my motives are purely to give access to a source that is covering the allegations of fraud from a different perspective than what the other MSM is giving. At no time did I "demand" it be labeled as reliable nor did I say that because its gaining viewership it must be reliable. I simply thought it should be reconsidered because it is getting more popular. As I have told you before, I will accept the consensus decision even if I disagree because that's how wikipedia works. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 18:36, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@ BlackBird1008: "I believe that they offer a different perspective of current events that is widely ignored by other reliable sources. I believe that this perspective is important and should be considered reliable for election related news at a minimum." Those were your words from above. I believe I have accurately represented what you said; you desire to include Newsmax because you think that their "perspective" (read: promotion of baseless conspiracy theories and false information that is popular with certain groups) is "widely ignored". You miss (or maybe WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT) the part where this "perspective" (or maybe alternative facts?) is "widely ignored by other reliable sources" because REAL reliable sources have to meet at least a basic floor value for accuracy and fact checking. IHateAccounts ( talk) 19:57, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

You are confusing support for this source (I offer none as I think it's a poor source) with concerns regarding the entire deprecation process. I feel it should be a requirement that before any source can be deprecated those advocating deprecation need to show there is otherwise a problem with wide spread use of the source. Else we should handle things as we did for many years, on a case by case basis. Springee ( talk) 18:02, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@ IHateAccounts: "The reason multiple editors are supporting deprecation is because the editor who opened this discussion opened it by demanding that Newsmax be deemed reliable so that they could use it", I at no point demanded them be considered reliable. "you desire to include Newsmax because you think that their "perspective" (read: promotion of baseless conspiracy theories and false information that is popular with certain groups) (Your opinion) is "widely ignored" (My opinion). You misrepresent my motives and claim my opinion of a "perspective being ignored" is wrong because it doesn't align with your perspective aka WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I also will make it clear...again, I do not think Trump will succeed in overturning this election nor am I trying to put false information into any article. I only brought up newsmax because they are not universally dismissing these claims as false because all the facts will not be available until these cases are resolved. If the consensus is that this source does not meet the WP:RS guidelines, then so be it. I Suggested that they be reconsidered because its getting a bigger following, I did not say because they are getting a bigger following it should be deemed reliable. (last word in this discussion because its going nowhere and is unproductive) BlackBird1008 ( talk) 20:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@ BlackBird1008:, your wordings:

1. "I did not say because they are getting a bigger following it should be deemed reliable."
2. "I believe that this perspective is important and should be considered reliable for election related news at a minimum.they no longer represent only fringe viewpoints as their viewership has increased post election."

You DID, in fact, say what you are now denying you said. The pixels are literally still on this page. IHateAccounts ( talk) 20:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@ IHateAccounts: Ill reply only because since you have nothing better to do than make me look like something I'm not, here is the first line I wrote in this discussion "With Newsmax gaining a much broader audience, I think it needs to be reconsidered as a reliable source". The word reconsidered is not synonymous with demand. When I say I believe or I think, that means it's my opinion which I'm still allowed to have in the United States. When I say its because they no longer represent fringe viewpoints, its because they don't, they are becoming more mainstream (aka not fringe) regardless of how you view them. I really don't see why you have the obsession with WP:BLUDGEON ing this to death, disagree and move on. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 00:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

• NOTE, it's DEPRECATION, not "Depreciation". -- Valjean ( talk) 16:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (Deprecate) Those that need to believe the lies they put forth as "news" can read them there. They have no business being regurgitated in wikiP articles. MarnetteD| Talk 17:52, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (deprecate) prolific propagandistic news media organization. Acousmana ( talk) 18:23, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (deprecate)- I don't believe there to be any argument that this outlet fails WP:RS   Aloha27  talk  21:28, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 Clearly not a reliable source, per evidence presented above. We currently have over 1000 citations to Newsmax per Newsmax.com    , the vast majority of which are not aboutself. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 02:56, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 - per Aquillion, MastCell and Hemiauchenia. starship .paint ( talk) 14:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (deprecate)—per Aquillion and MastCell -- ‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 14:44, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: No point in keeping this open. O3000 ( talk) 16:09, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree. For a procedure as serious as deprecation (which it looks like this is heading towards), it seems reasonable to allow time for evidence to come forward in the time allotted. It seems unlikely in this case, but it is possible that strong counter-arguments will emerge. Jlevi ( talk) 18:46, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4 (deprecate)- Where it is reliable there are dozens of other sources but I haven't seen anything that would even bring it close to being an RS, particularly on political matter where it has become a repository of falsehoods (if it ever had any reliability in its reporting). Koncorde ( talk) 18:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 (maybe 4) Clearly a poor source. Might not be such an aggressively poor source as to require deprecation. I need to look further into the arguments provided so far, but the first I looked at--the Lies, Damn Lies, and Viral Content paper--isn't very strong. Newsmax is noted as one out of several publications that both published claims about the statement "ISIS fighters were caught trying to enter the U.S. via the U.S.-Mexico border" and published more articles after that fact had been debunked. Buzzfeed and Fox News did the same. The paper notes that this particular claim was very commonly misreported, and it seems unsure of how to interpret it:

"The explosive claim that ISIS fighters had been apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border was refuted within 24 hours and yet only 20 percent of news organizations that wrote an initial story came back to it. It’s possible that the partisan element of the claim led some conservative outlets to fail to update their articles with denials from top Obama officials. However, this is an aspect that requires more research."

Given that the paper itself seems unsure what conclusion to reach regarding this issue, it seems going too far for us to deprecate this sourced based on this publishing, especially given that it's not seen as so damning for BuzzFeed or Fox News. A variety of other publications are named doing similar things regarding other false-and-debunked statements: The Week, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal.

To conclude, it seems likely to me that this source is pretty darn rotten--I'll check back in after I finish looking at the other references discussed. But when I look at one of the sources used to establish this claim here, it seems weaker than I expected given how vigorously folks are referencing it. So I'm not prepared to go for deprecation at this point, given that it would seem to apply deprecation of a whole range of other sources if we are to hold them to the same standard. Again, I predict that I'll switch to "deprecate" after I review other sources linked here, but looking at this first source makes it clear that I'll need to evaluate them closely.

One thing that would aid those arguing for retention of this source: does Newsmax ever produce original material? I'm not seeing that yet, so it makes me lean towards saying "deprecate: nothing lost here". Jlevi ( talk) 18:46, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

The New Media and the ‘Anchor Baby’ Boom paper does not itself describe the anchor baby framing as disinformation. The main purpose of the paper is to track the spread of the concept (and it's quite a cool paper). Indeed, the paper describes how the anchor baby concept appeared throughout many mainstream news sources, indicating that it is probably not 'false' from the perspective of Wikipedia. This certainly may be indication of bias of the source, but the 'anchor baby' framing device is more of an interpretive method than a direct statement of facts in any case. Aquillion describes the paper as "describ[ing] it [Newsmax] as spreading fringe ideas in an effort to make them mainstream". I think this is a reasonable interpretation of the paper, but I don't think this is admissible for claims about reliability. By very virtue of these claims appearing throughout mainstream sources, this is rather complicated from that perspective, and it seems better to just interpret this paper as a discussion of bias propagation, rather than of misinformation propagation. Jlevi ( talk) 22:16, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Reviewing the Facebook disinformation paper now. In general, we don't weigh social media posts of outlets in establishing their reliability. The paper notes that they are explicitly looking at social media posts and not news articles: "First, Sobieraj and Berry (2011)and Nithyanand et al. (2017) studied political discourses in media outlets (e.g., cable news) and Reddit respectively, whereas our work studied user responses to extreme conservative and liberal disinformation in Facebook." In fact, if I'm reading this correctly, the study looked primarily at user comments for sentiment analysis. I don't think this paper adds heavily to our interpretation of this source's reliability. Jlevi ( talk) 22:27, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Looks like this might be heading for a snow close. To conclude, there is very strong evidence for unreliability about the 2020 election in particular. It seems that most arguments fail to make statements on Newsmax's reliability prior to 2020 and the 2020 US election. I support deprecation from 2020 onward and generally unreliable prior to that. ​ Jlevi ( talk) 16:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@ Jlevi: I think I understand but can you please verify this is what you mean? Aquillion's provided academic sources are from 2015 [65], 2011 [66], 2018 [67], 2018 [68], and 2019 [69] respectively, all of which would definitionally have to be arguments "prior to 2020 and the 2020 US election"? IHateAccounts ( talk) 16:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes. I have addressed each of these sources other than this one in my comments earlier in this thread. Having read them, I believe that these sources speak not about reliability of Newsmax articles, but rather about bias, tone, and framing devices. In addition, one of the cited sources appears to be not about Newsmax articles, but rather about Facebook comments on Newsmax posts (if I'm interpreting it correctly). Thus, though it's pretty clear that Newsmax is unreliable prior to 2020, I do not believe current arguments make a convincing case for deprecation prior to 2020. On the other hand, the arguments regarding the 2020 election coverage as grounds for deprecation are quite good. Is that clear? Jlevi ( talk) 17:16, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable We should treat any source as generally unreliable until reliability is established. But I see no evidence that they publish false or fabricated information beyond what reliable sources do. PolitiFact has only one entry for them and rated a claim they made in a mailing (not a news story) as "mostly true." [70] Snopes complained about an article by Ed Klein, "Ed Klein: Hillary's Plea Bargain" In it he cites a Clinton lawyer saying a Justice Dept. official said the department was considering offering Clinton a plea deal. While they should not have published the rumor without additional confirmation, they didn't actually state that it was true. And reliable sources occasionally do the same thing. Usually what editors complain of is their emphasis on conservative opinion which frequently is based on a misrepresentation of facts. TFD ( talk) 18:57, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 We have NEVER considered them reliable afaik, and they've gotten even worse over time. Volunteer Marek 21:38, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 Back to basics. They don't have a corrections policy. They don't have a reputation for fact checking or accuracy. So they can't be option 1 or 2. I think we over-use deprecation. It should be reserved for sites that are controlled by dictatorships, support genocide, or the like. They don't come anywhere near that level. Adoring nanny ( talk) 02:27, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 per Aquillion and MastCell. Anti-science is less compelling to me, as all non-science specialist news media outlets are unreliable to some degree about science, but their reputation for promoting conspiracy theories, particularly now in the context of the false claims made by Trump, is sufficient that I can think of no justified context to use the source. — Bilorv ( talk) 09:23, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 for NewsMax website on the principle of generally opposing deprecation, Option 4 for NewsMax TV broadcasts because it seems particularly egregious, Option 2 for NewsMax magazine, nothing here seems to cover them but pushing generally unreliable on the grounds that neither of the other sources are. Open to changing my mind as I read more of this thread. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 11:55, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4. There are clearly many examples of NewsMax promoting falsehoods. Upon checking their website today, I click on an article at random and am immediately presented with something which has clearly not undergone any sort of rigorous fact checking or editorial scrutiny. A line from Donald Trump about 'paying for the wall through fees paid when Mexican citizens cross legally into the United States' is reported, with no context included that it is false. It is hard to imagine any context in which NewsMax would be an appropriate source for wikipedia. Awoma ( talk) 11:39, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4, but this should hardly be necessary: no competent Wikipedian would use Newsmax as a source, surely? Guy ( help! - typo?) 09:10, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @ JzG:, your query begs the obvious question: Why don't we topic ban those who repeatedly fail this most basic requirement, especially those who edit controversial articles, such as in the AP2 area? Any admin, citing DS, can do it without making a big deal of it.

This is pretty clear: "Basically, we presume that people who contribute to the English-language Wikipedia have the following competencies:... the ability to read sources and assess their reliability. Editors should familiarize themselves with Wikipedia's guidance on identifying reliable sources and be able to decide when sources are, and are not, suitable for citing in articles." We waste so much time because we fail to deal with them appropriately. -- Valjean ( talk) 17:21, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4, no indication of any interest in fact checking or correction, not considered Reliable by other RS, and the antivax is so literally deadly that it probably warrants two-and-a-half strikes all by itself. On the bright side, if Newsmax steals away Fox's more radical audience perhaps Fox will shift back to being usable on Science&Politics. Alsee ( talk) 10:39, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 − as others have said, I'm not aware of a vast issue with Newsmax being used to source claims (I cannot recall ever having run across it in an article). A search shows that it's cited 1,044 times across the entire encyclopedia, and backing up claims like His retirement became official on July 1, 2013.[101] for Ben Carson (in which case the citation is to an interview he gave to Newsmax). That said, Newsmax is obviously a huge crock on several important subjects (for this we can consult their valiant coverage of the "other side" of the blue vs. orange sky color controversy etc). This much should be obvious. However, deprecating a source is a pretty extreme action to be taken (note that Wikipedia did just fine for seventeen years prior to ever doing this), and will result in lots of distended gaping holes in articles. If it were acknowledged as generally unreliable, what would prevent editors from going through those search results and individually evaluating the sourced statements (and possibly finding better sources for them)? jp× g 12:10, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4: Per Acousmana, Aquillion, MatnetteD, MastCell, Hemiauchenia and others. Magnus Dominus ( talk) 12:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (deprecate) for spreading lies and conspiracy theories about the US election. It should be illegal for these far-right hacks to call themselves “news”. Also, is it just me, or did I see a few flakes outside my window? — pythoncoder ( talk |  contribs) 14:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 (reliable) − it has been accurately reporting on the latest news during the September-November 2020 period. Yurivict ( talk) 23:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 (deprecate) - many editors have made useful observations, but Aquillion and MastCell have been especially persuasive. Personally, I believe that the "Raphael Badani" affair and the things they have published about COVID-19 vaccines are sufficient to deprecate. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:30, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion: Newsmax

Procedural note: deprecating or declaring a source generally unreliable requires an RFC. See the top of this noticeboard. Moreover, the general purpose of this noticeboard is dispute resolution – discussing whether a source is reliable for a specific content in specific article – not general discussion about an outlet. Politrukki ( talk) 08:41, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Comments in reply to Valjean's comment above: ( t · c) buidhe 10:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@ Valjean: You lost me at Brian Stelter as an extremely reliable source, he is just another opinionated pundit. And no offense, because I value everyone’s right to their opinion, but I find it hard for you to consider Newsmax fairly based on your essay User:Valjean/Essay/Reliable sources, Trump, and his editors here. I understand the criteria for WP:RS and if we can’t come to a consensus based on those criteria, then so be it. That’s why we have these discussions. In my opinion, there has not been enough evidence to exclude their coverage of this election as unreliable. There may be branches of their organization, such as Newsmax Health, that should be depricated based on their coverage of vaccines. That can happen without deprecating their news section. It is also my opinion that their coverage of the election is within the bounds of the facts as we know them. The allegations they are covering have not been investigated and the facts have not been settled. It seems that conservative news organizations are automatically deemed unreliable on Wikipedia while known left leaning news organizations are given a pass with little resistance. I’d like to see that change however I also understand that consensus is key to keeping Wikipedia as a reliable source itself. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 07:09, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The "basic criteria" for RS are accuracy and fact-checking. If a source disagrees with ALL the mainstream media, that's a red flag; be cautious. Newsmax pushes false narratives and supports Trump's counterfactual agenda on election results, vaccines, COVID-19, climate change, and pushes conspiracy theories (Red flags are favorable use of these words and phrases: Russiagate, Spygate, Steele dossier is fake and debunked, investigations are a Russia hoax, no collusion at all, "I'm the victim of a witchhunt," etc.).

Newsmax, along with Trump, are on the wrong side of history and facts, and what's relevant for Wikipedia and this discussion, on the wrong side of RS on these issues. (Read our articles and the RS they use. We are supposed to agree with RS and follow the evidence, including if and when they "change their minds." That is our obligation as editors. Opposition to RS is opposition to our policies here.) Newsmax and other fringe sources (Breitbart, Daily Caller, New York Post, Daily Mail, Fox News talking heads, Washington Times, American Thinker, The Federalist, etc.) provide the lying contrast (truth vs. lies) to what factual RS say, and we do not give such counterfactual, contrasting, views and sources any weight here because they are not accurate. They are false. We use better sources. That's why we only allow the use of deprecated sources, without undue self-justification, in their own articles. The mainstream view from RS always gets more weight (the last word). -- Valjean ( talk) 16:43, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Comments in reply to my comment above: -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:01, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Those are not terribly strong though. Your first source lists then in a column with other sources saying they repeated a claim that turned out to be false. The second source does give that one line then goes on to say things like stronger commitment to the bottom line than to presenting himself as an ideologue. Three not a fan of thesis in other languages but is just listing them in a table with a bunch of other sources lacking context or why. Which is again similar to the last source, they are just in a list. PackMecEng ( talk) 04:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  Corrections: The first source says they repeated false claims multiple times, without fact-checking or verification and then failed to follow up with a retraction or correction, all of which are core principles of how we assess WP:RSes. The second source straightforwardly describes their fringe nature; the third and fourth sources show that it has been classified as junk news and misinformation in peer-reviewed literature (with the final one using a definition that is almost word-for-word our definition of an unreliable sources.) These are strong, sterling sources to support depreciation, far beyond what we usually rely on; I'm unsure what else you would want beyond peer-reviewed papers that almost point-for-point go down our requirements for a WP:RS and say that they fail nearly every one. -- Aquillion ( talk) 05:08, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  Mostly things that specifically deal with Newsmax instead of passing mention or lumped in a group with no specific description. Which those fail to do. I am not saying they are necessarily wrong and heck it is a source I try to avoid. That said your answer does not address my concerns. PackMecEng ( talk) 05:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  I am glad that we agree that Newsweek is a source that should be avoided, at least; that is, after all, the most important part of a depreciation discussion - beyond that it is mostly minor quibbling over how to word the discussion's summary. I don't feel you've raised any significant or policy-based concerns beyond that; I was merely correcting a few important omissions from your summary (to wit, the aspects of those sources that make them so brutal to anyone's attempts to argue Newsmax could be used as a source, given the way they focus almost laser-tight on the ways Newsmax fails our WP:RS policy and meets the standards for depreciation.) To me, the fact that numerous high-quality academic sources list it as what we would consider depreciation-worthy without further comment is actually a stronger argument, because it says that among top-quality sources Newmax's status as a source that deliberately publish[es] misleading, deceptive or incorrect information purporting to be real news about politics, economics or culture is so well-established and clear-cut that numerous academic papers could use it as a benchmark for political disinformation without worrying that someone will object to that categorization in a way that would call their results into question. An extended essay in a news source would be someone making the argument that Newsmax is what we would call depreciation-worthy; whereas its unequivocal hard categorization as a purvayor of political misinformation in numerous academic sources using such lists establishes it as a commonly-accepted fact, at least within those academic domains. The fact that all these papers passed peer-review while using it in that fashion underlines this reality. By my reading, you don't even seem to be seriously disputing that basic fact (you haven't presented any sources of your own that I can see, and concede that it's a source you would try to avoid), you just wish we had some additional sources digging into Newsmax in more depth. By all means go an search for them; but it's not necessary to have such an in-depth analysis for depreciation when sources like the ones I listed make the general assessment of Newsmax in academia crystal-clear. We're trying to assess its general reputation for fact-checking and accuracy here; we're not trying to write an extended case-study on it. -- Aquillion ( talk) 05:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  Again just looking for something on Newsmax specifically, it shouldn't be that hard for you. Passing mention and lumped into groups with little supporting the claim is just not that helpful here. Also just because I personally do not like using it, is not a reason to depreciate it. That is the kind of logic you would use to WP:RGW or pull a WP:IDONTLIKEIT kind of claim. PackMecEng ( talk) 06:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  Fortunately, I have provided five academic sources establishing the fact that this source is a well-known purveyor of political misinformation, all of which mention Newsmax specifically; no one has raised any policy-based objections to any of them, or presented any sources disagreeing with them, and the fact that they passed peer review establishes that they are decisive in discussions such as these. I am sorry you, personally, did not find this discussion to be helpful, but I'll direct you to WP:BLUDGEON once again: The fact that you have a question, concern, or objection does not mean that others are obligated to answer you. You have adequately expressed your personal feelings about the numerous sources I've produced; now it's time to back down and let others add their own assessments. Weak arguments do not become stronger through repetition, while a strong argument only needs to be stated a single time to accomplish its goal. - Aquillion ( talk) 08:03, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  Weak arguments do not become stronger through repetition Yet you keep repeating the same argument without addressing any of the concerns expressed about its flaws. It is really confusing and concerning why you would do that. PackMecEng ( talk) 16:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  I have answered you thoroughly, whether you accept it or not; as I said above, I have no obligation to satisfy you specifically, and as you see above, people seem to be convinced by my arguments and the strength of the sources I produced. -- Aquillion ( talk) 21:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Free Beacon is generally reliable. It has a reputation of fact-checking and accuracy and is used by others. According to McKay Coppins (2018), staff writer at The Atlantic,

  Free Beacon] contains a fair amount of trolling—a running series of Kate Upton clickbait; winking headlines like "Greatest Living President Is Also Fantastic Painter"—but it has also earned a reputation for real-deal journalism. Its reporters run down leads, work their sources, call for comment, and issue corrections when necessary. If a partisan press really is the future, we could do worse than the Free Beacon."

  Politrukki ( talk) 09:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  Moreover, based on my quick reading (string search), what you say about Free Beacon making "false claims" is false. Your paper (A Tow/Knight Report) says the status is "unverified" and the Free Breacon reporting was repeated by USA Today and The Huffington Post, "to name a few larger online outlets". Would you suggest deprecating USA Today, The Huffington Post, and "larger online outlets"? What about other sources that publish unverified reports? Politrukki ( talk) 09:37, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  The Free Beacon was already the subject of a previous RFC, here. It had low participation but was overwhelming in favor of depreciation. We could run another one but I suspect the results would be the same. Regarding the other outlets, we'd have to consider the overall coverage they receive, but the key for the Free Beacon in particular was that they were the source of the claim and were particularly called out for doing no fact-checking or verification whatsoever, which is a vital requirement of WP:RS. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:03, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I would just like to say in regards to the opening statement:

1. A source gaining a sizable increase in viewership is a reason to reconsider its reliability.
2. Wikipedia should generally consider the reliability of a source in the context of other sources that share its opinions as well as in the abstract to determine whether it is reliable.
3. It does not follow from either of these things, or from a viewership of 287,000 that a source is reliable. 30 million Americans don't believe in the moon landings [72] and yet we still report them as fact because that is what is verifiable.

Basically, I agree with BlackBird's reasons but not his reasoning. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 17:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@ El komodos drago: Fair enough, all I wanted was this discussion to happen even if the majority disagree with me. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 18:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

No problem, it's reasonable that this discussion happens even if it does end up citing a news rating agency that is funded in equal parts by US government departments, big tech, and arms contractors; and a logic on pay to print Russian supplements that would leave us with no RSes. I should have been around to raise these things when MintPress happened but hey 🤷‍♂️. Well, all the best, El komodos drago ( talk to me) 22:06, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

"even if it does end up citing a news rating agency that is funded in equal parts by US government departments, big tech, and arms contractors; and a logic on pay to print Russian supplements that would leave us with no RSes" Those are some pretty weird aspersions you're casting, care to clarify? IHateAccounts ( talk) 23:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so my apologies on the first point, NewsGuard isn't actually run by the Atlantic Council just run by ex-Atlantic Council and US government communication strategist types. For instance Richard Stengel, self-described chief propagandist [73] and Atlantic Council distinguished fellow [74], is on its advisory board. [75] While I know we have deprecated it, if you want a good rundown of some of the rest of its links backed up by references to NewsGuard's own website MintPress News did a good rundown of it. [76] Basically NewsGuard is just an organisation set up to, where possible, mark news sources that support western foreign policy as green and ones that oppose it as red. As such if we are looking for an independent or neutral source for media reliability basically anyone other than NewsGuard such as either Ad Fontes or Media Bias/Fact Check would be better.

As for paid propaganda supplements, the Wall Stree Journal, Washington Post, New York Times, and Daily Telegraph have all run Russia: Beyond The Headlines (paid for by the Russian government) and China Watch (paid for by the Chinese government). [77] If we applied the idea that running paid propaganda made a source automatically unreliable then we would have to deprecate a bunch of top tier RSes globally. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 11:54, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

"Basically NewsGuard is just an organisation set up to, where possible, mark news sources that support western foreign policy as green and ones that oppose it as red." Wow, that's way into conspiracy theory territory. And yes, I read the Mintpress article, but I don't find anything of substance there; it appears more to be just complaining about being held to task for publishing falsehoods.

The biggest problem I can find real, reliable sources having with Newsguard is that if anything their bar to give a website a green label is too low [78] [79]; noting that they still manage to give Fox News a green label DESPITE falling to a 69.5 rating, failing to issue corrections, failing to gather and present information responsibly, and failing to handle the difference between news and opinion responsibly. [80] IHateAccounts ( talk) 16:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

The reason the bar is set so low for Fox News and the Daily Mail is because they toe the line, report, say, that a reporter from a commercial Russian news channel with a minority Russian government stake doing a piece to camera outside the base of a... controversial British army unit is a "spy". [81] It may sound like conspiracy theorism but if you have a look at where it places the bar for different sources it seems pretty evident that they differ depending on whether the source is friendly to US interests or not. As I said, I think the view that MintPress News is unreliable is wrong. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 18:26, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

ON the subject of paid content, there is a difference between paid content and publishing as supplement you make no claim of ownership of. So does Newsmax make it clear its Russian? Slatersteven ( talk) 12:01, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Definitely a relevant question. The ethical lines are twofold: first, is it clearly labeled as paid content and second, is it something that goes WAY over the line in terms of falsehoods?

My student newspaper's ad department got in trouble for accepting a set of "paid inserts" by the cult of scientology some years ago. The problem wasn't the inserts, it was that the cult went behind their backs and had the "Paid Advertisement" banner stripped off by the printing company. IHateAccounts ( talk) 16:45, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I think that provided the content is clearly marked it shouldn't count. For starters, China Watch and Russia Beyond are probably not the model of accuracy. Secondly, viewing a source as unreliable because it in someway associates with another unreliable source can quickly lead to many other sources being unreliable. For instance, a while ago we decided that AlterNet was unreliable. Now I know nothing about AlterNet and can't say whether that was the right decision or not. But then when we had to decide on MintPress we deprecated that partly because it republished from AlterNet. Then when we talked about The Greyzone we decided that was unreliable partly because it cited MintPress News. If my memory serves me right we literally discussed a single story when we decided on Greyzone. Now we are using links to Greyzone to deem unreliable other sources. If AlterNet suddenly turned out to be the model of factual accuracy we'd have to reconsider 3 or 4 sources on WP:RSP. This can lead to really circular logic (Source A is unreliable because no reliable source cites it. Source B is unreliable because it cites Source A). El komodos drago ( talk to me) 18:26, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I see nothing here [82] that matches your claim that "we deprecated Mintpress partly because it republished from AlterNet". I do see one mention that they republished no less than 340 articles from ZeroHedge, one of the worst disinformation sites available online and furthermore, a blog, which demonstrated that Mintpress had no reliability standards and was not bothering to fact-check what they republished? IHateAccounts ( talk) 22:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

My apologies, I got the two confused. I know nothing about ZeroHedge, and I'm glad you are confident that ZeroHedge is a "disinformation site". I'm just saying that viewing sources as unreliable because of what they republish could very quickly spiral into a situation where we are deciding the fate of half a dozen sources on the back of the actions of one of them. Thank-you for correcting me, El komodos drago ( talk to me) 13:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

El komodos drago, "viewing sources as unreliable because of what they republish..." is not what we do. Their bias is not a factor. We view sources as unreliable because they republish counterfactual content. It is facts, not bias, which we look at. (Obviously, extreme bias is noticed, because it's a red flag. Extreme bias tends to affect reliability.) Start noticing how those who get their views from unreliable sources will invariably deny the above (no matter how many times we explain this to them) and claim that their favored version and sources have been rejected because of the political bias of editors, rather than the fact that experienced editors usually reject sources because they are not factual, as our policies require us to do. There is a reason why controversial articles are often partially protected. -- Valjean ( talk) 17:47, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@ Valjean: I was not talking about bias there, or anywhere else in my discussions on this subject. My problem is that regardless of accuracy, clearly marked republished content should not count towards whether or not a source is reliable. I do not know the specifics of this case because they are behind the WSJ's paywall but I am making a broad point that we at this noticeboard have started employing some very circular logic about what is not a reliable source and are increasingly looking at linkages as tenuous as who they share readers with instead of what their actual publishing policies are. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 18:19, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

My question was does newsmax mark it, or does it claim it as its own? Slatersteven ( talk) 11:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

The relevant details are behind the WSJ's paywall so I can't answer that. But I think this is the right question. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 14:13, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

This article may be of interest to people participating in this RfC. Still looking for a reliable source to take a position one way or the other. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 17:00, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Okay, it looks like this isn't accurate but I wouldn't swear by the reliability of any of those sources. Finding the truth about any news story in America is like swimming through treacle because the left-wing media and the right-wing media live in their own little bubbles and a large chunk of them can't be trusted to tell the truth. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 17:20, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Only one of those seems to mention Newsmax, and none (as far as I can tell) say anything about it reliability. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

NewsMax states Georgia Democrat operative Stacey Abrams effectively placed a preemptive block of signature verification on ballots in Georgia's hand recount based on a claim from Trump and a republican Representative. The above sources say that this is rubbish. As I said, I can't see anyone reputable who settles this one way or the other but a lack of coverage from reputable sources seems to indicate that it is a right-wing talking point that has no basis in the truth. El komodos drago ( talk to me) 18:19, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I think El komodos was trying to make an oblique repetition of the OP's claim that Newsmax provides some kind of reliable "alternative perspective", and then realized they stuck their foot in it by not really checking for more reliable coverage such as this: https://www.wsbtv.com/news/politics/trump-launches-attack-georgia-governor-counties-work-recount-votes/RVKWG2SDFBEWRID75ST4AJRGW4/ After a further review, however, the analysis is showing exactly how bad Newsmax truly is. Responsible outlets - and even some that are considered less reliable by Wikipedia, such as Newsweek - correctly note that Trump's accusations are unevidenced and place them in the context of the various conspiracy theories that Trump, his administration, and his followers have bandied about. Newsmax chooses to completely omit context and necessary information, instead just breathlessly repeating the accusations made by Trump and by his campaign employee Doug Collins. IHateAccounts ( talk) 18:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

It was actually in response to BlackBird's request to pull something off their home page that is truly not factual but I should have been clearer about it in the original post. I was hopping that there would be an RS that roundly proved or debunked the claim but unfortunately there wasn't. WSB-TV doesn't actually say that Trump's claim was wrong and it doesn't have an RSP or MB/FC. But they look reliable and their tone of doubt is distinct. (plus it sounds outlandish so there is that). El komodos drago ( talk to me) 11:51, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm still shaking my head because anyone can defend Newsmax, even claiming that their rapidly increasing popularity is a good argument for not deprecating them. The very reason they are becoming more popular is that they are an even worse source than Fox News, that they push even more false narratives, ignore even more facts that have debunked those false narratives, and push even wilder conspiracy theories.

They are even worse than Fox News, an already bad source for AP2, and the single biggest reason for that increased popularity is because Fox News made the mistake (in TrumpWorld) of telling the truth. That truth is anathema to so many Trump/Fox fans that their immediate allergic reaction to facts is to jump ship for another ship with a raging ©TellUsMoreLies epidemic. (Steward checking tickets: "Have you recently been exposed to the ©TellUsMoreLies #TrumpVirus (trending on Twitter)? No? Then you'll have a hard time here. Debunking of the virus is frowned upon by most passengers on this ship. They choose to be infected, and they came here just to get away from people like you. Light is not allowed to penetrate our darkness, so don't mention 'fact-checking'.")

Newsmax is a welcoming harbor for those who have no critical thinking skills, a fundamental requirement for editors here, and yet we have editors who try to defend such a source. Think about that. We already deprecate sources that rate better than Fox News. Why defend an even worse source? -- Valjean ( talk) 17:45, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Some other sources came up as I was trudging through the referenced sources in this discussion, so I figured I'd describe some things that might aid future RSN discussions:

• For the FB disinformation paper, almost all sources described as misinformation are already redboxed on RSP. The exceptions are: Addicting Info, The Blaze, the Conservative Tribune, and RedState. I think most of these are obvious enough that they don't warrant discussion/RSP entries.
• The Anchor Baby paper does not describe things in terms of reliability. It orients discussion almost entirely in terms of partisanship, so I don't think it's a particularly useful source for these questions.
• The list of 'junk news sources' includes a variety of sources we consider OK-ish, as well as some sources we use fairly broadly: The Federalist (unlisted, >200 articles), National Review (yellow, ~3000 articles), Mediaite (yellow, ~800 articles), The Inquisitr (unlisted, >800), Hot Air (unlisted, ~200) and American Thinker (unlisted, ~200 articles). It also lists Rasmussen Reports, which we use in >700 pages. I believe that this is because that list is based on criteria that we do not consider, including partisanship and style. I do not think this list is entirely useful for the purpose of judging reliability, as shown by its disagreement with some of our yellow-listed RSP entries.
• The 2015 Lies, Damn Lies, And Viral Content paper does not describe sources overall as biased/unreliable. It instead evaluates on an article-by-article basis. Articles described as containing misinformation/debunked claims are discussed for sources ranging from the WSJ to the BBC to Buzzfeed to (yes) Newsmax. Interestingly, they mention Huffpost as among the best at addressing debunked claims and being transparent about this sort of thing, indicating that that source really stepped it up between 2012 and 2015.

If this is not an appropriate place for these comments, I'd be happy to have them moved somewhere else. Jlevi ( talk) 22:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

The American Conservative commented on the 'list of junk sources' article ( link). They didn't like it very much. Jlevi ( talk) 22:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Mandy Rice-Davies Applies would seem to apply, especially for low-reliability sites such as TAC that purvey ridiculous nonsense stories like this that start out by misrepresenting a photo and get LESS factual as they go on: [83]. But this discussion isn't about TAC, which is rated "for attributed opinions" only. IHateAccounts ( talk) 23:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, sure, I agree. I include it not for review of this source, but because the article's hilarious in the context of this discussion. Probably too FORUM-y and tangential for this context, I'll admit. Jlevi ( talk) 16:51, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

NewsMax: Close?

This has been open 7 days and is consistently in a single direction. Shall we call for a close? - David Gerard ( talk) 14:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

It's snowing. Go for it. -- Valjean ( talk) 15:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@ Pythoncoder: proposed Wikipedia:Snowball clause, I second (third? fourth?) the motion. IHateAccounts ( talk) 15:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

To help out here is a quick count:

1. 31 responses for Option 4 (Deprecate). I don't know that I need to go through all of these but I think these highlights are indicative, if others confirm:

1. Schazjmd linked to Newsguard's analysis which described Newsmax as ""Proceed with caution: This website severely violates basic journalistic standards.""
2. Numerically, Ad Fontes Media places Newsmax's reliability rating in the same general range as other, already-Deprecated sources such as RT / Russia Today, The Epoch Times, Breitbart, Zero Hedge and the Daily Caller.
3. Aquillion provided multiple academic papers regarding Newsmax as "as a source that has repeatedly repeated false claims from another outlet (The Washington Free Beacon, which should probably also be depreciated) without fact-checking or verification, apparently for ideological reasons, and without a retraction or follow-up when it was found to be false", "a misinformation source", and ""junk news" classification, which is defined as These sources deliberately publish misleading, deceptive or incorrect information purporting to be real news about politics, economics or culture. This content includes various forms of propaganda and ideologically extreme, hyper-partisan, or conspiratorial news and information.".
4. Mastcell provided multiple Wikipedia:Reliable sources, including The Guardian, Daily Beast and Wall Street Journal, showing that Newsmax launders propaganda and promulgates misinformation.
5. Other responses generally tracked back to these ("Option 4: Per Acousmana, Aquillion, MatnetteD, MastCell, Hemiauchenia and others." -Magnus Dominus) or indicated incredulity that someone could see Newsmax as reliable in any way ("Option 4, deprecate. Would really hope that they aren't being used now to source anything in the Wikipedia. Newsmax has a decades-long track record of false news." - ValarianB, "Option 4 We have NEVER considered them reliable afaik, and they've gotten even worse over time." - Volunteer Marek, "Option 4, but this should hardlyt be necessary: no competent Wikipedian would use Newsmax as a source, surely?" - JzG)

1. 6 responses for Option 3 (Generally Unreliable)

1. Springee, whose argument against Option 4 is "the wide spread use of the deprecation process. It has gone too far and needs to be stopped."
2. Jlevi, who wrote "Option 3 (maybe 4) Clearly a poor source. Might not be such an aggressively poor source as to require deprecation. I need to look further..." but I can't find where they came to a firm conclusion one way or the other.

Updated, JLevi writes "To conclude, there is very strong evidence for unreliability about the 2020 election in particular. It seems that most arguments fail to make statements on Newsmax's reliability prior to 2020 and the 2020 US election. I support deprecation from 2020 onward and generally unreliable prior to that."

1. TFD, who wrote that they "see no evidence that they publish false or fabricated information beyond what reliable sources do."
2. Adoring Nanny, who wrote "I think we over-use deprecation."
3. ExcitedEngineer, who wrote "Whether we like it or not, unreliable people saying unreliable things in unreliable media are no longer at the fringe of political discourse", arguing that a WP:RSOPINION option should preclude deprecation.
4. El Komodos Drago, who proposed to split the baby: "Option 3 for NewsMax website on the principle of generally opposing deprecation, Option 4 for NewsMax TV broadcasts because it seems particularly egregious, Option 2 for NewsMax magazine, nothing here seems to cover them but pushing generally unreliable on the grounds that neither of the other sources are."

1. 0 for Option 2 (Unclear)
2. 2 for Option 1 (Generally Reliable); only commenters for this were Blackbird1008, the original proposer, and Yurivict.

Please let me know if I got something wrong in my count or if there is disagreement to my synopsis. IHateAccounts ( talk) 16:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Close requested at WP:RFCC - David Gerard ( talk) 21:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)