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We have an AfD going on for list of fatal dog attacks in the United States and one of the questions people have about the page is about reliable source coverage of the subject as a group.
Among the websites offered for evidence of this coverage are dogsbite.org, dogbitelaw.com, daxtonsfriends.com, animals24-7.org, nationalpitbullvictimawareness.org, and fatalpitbullattacks.com
Not looking for opinions on notability here, of course, nor for people to weigh in at that AfD. Just for opinions as to whether advocacy websites, law firm websites, etc. like these should be considered reliable sources in this context.
It's very much not my topic area -- it just seems like I keep coming across thinly veiled anti-pitbull advocacy on Wikipedia lately, and I want to make sure I'm not missing something about these kinds of sources. I know that in some areas there are advocacy organizations routinely do high quality work, and perhaps these are among them. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:29, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Attack data are often seriously flawed with respect to collection, reporting, and analysis. In the United States, the term “pit bull” does not mean APBT: it is a generic term that includes all the bull and terrier breeds, and sometimes the other bull breeds such as boxers, bull mastiffs, American bulldogs (Rowan, 1987). Breed identification is seldom ver-ified or consistent (Beck et al., 1975), and even experts cannot always tell whether a dog is a pit bull (Rowan, 1987). More seriously, breed identification often is based upon newspaper accounts.A 2013 paper in the JAVMA analysizes all US fatal dog attacks from 2000–2009 and notes that breed was only reliably identified for 17.6% of cases. Likewise, in a 2017 Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science paper, the authors found that large portions of hospital intake statistics are incomplete or unknown with regard to the breed, an example is
For example, Dwyer, Douglas, and van As (2007) claim that “pit bull terriers” and German Shepherd dogs—presumed to be correctly identified—were the most common breeds in their study to “attack” children, but they note that only 1% of their sample reported the presumed breed of the dog, a percentage far too low to permit generalizations about the other 99% of the sample.
Here are a few cases that Animals 24-7 considers to be pit bull deaths: In 2009, in Wisconsin, a 55-year-old woman, Louanne Okapal, died after being punched in the face by her horse. The horse had been frightened by a pit bull. In 2009, a 48-year-old Connecticut woman, Teresa Foss, died of a head injury after being hit by a pit bull. The dog hadn't bitten her. In 2010, 64-year-old Texas man Richard Martratt stabbed a pit bull and shot a catahoula after the two dogs attacked a border collie on his property. The man was not attacked by the dogs, but when authorities arrived he collapsed and died of a heart attack. In 2010 in Georgia, 14-year-old Miracle Parham fled after being frightened by a dog that witnesses described as a pit bull. She was fatally hit by a car. In 2013, 63-year-old James Harding was hit by a car after trying to pull away from two pitbulls. A 6-year-old girl was strangled by a chain to which a pit bull was attached. The year and location are not specified.and
Another case cited on DogsBite.org concerns a 57-year-old man from Tennessee, James Chapple, who suffered serious hand injuries from pit bulls in 2007. Four months later he died of atherosclerosis and alcoholism problems. Even so, DogsBite.org counts it as a death caused by pit bulls.PearlSt82 ( talk) 16:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
The Lee Institute’s forensic experts determined that Julia Mazziotto’s wounds had been inflicted postmortem and that the elderly woman had actually died of a cardiac arrhythmia. The dogs had not been involved in her death, but after the fact they had pawed, scratched, and bitten her body.PearlSt82 ( talk) 17:02, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
"An 80-year-old woman was fatally mauled in her home here on Monday by two pet pit bulls, the authorities said today. The woman, Julia Mazziotto, was bitten or clawed over 80 percent of her body, and the Bergen County medical examiner found that she had died of severe mutilating wounds inflicted by the dogs, said the county prosecutor ... the older of the two dogs ... was covered with blood..."Allegedly, according to Dickey pages 176-178, the daughter of the victim wanted her dogs back and so hired a third party (Lee Institute) to reevaluate the findings. Despite Lee's opinion that the dogs didn't kill the victim, a judge in the matter was unconvinced. So why are we second-guessing a judicial opinion on Wikipedia? This isn't helping Dickey's reliability (the evidence keeps piling up). By the way, here is a video of Mr. Phillips testifying before the Tennessee Senate Judiciary Committee in 2007 on changing their dog bite law after Mr. Chapple's death. Chapple's testimony was video'd from his hospital bed to present to the committee. The committee changed the Tenneessee law. Normal Op ( talk) 18:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
The results are reported below. More details about these attacks can be found on the authoritative and comprehensive web site of DogsBite.org, in the section on bite statistics.. Dogsbite.org does indeed count Julia Mazziotto as a pit bull fatality - see the New Jersey Section here. PearlSt82 ( talk) 18:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
35 U.S. dog bite-related fatalities occurred in 2007., and there are 35 incidents on the list, of which Chapple is one. PearlSt82 ( talk) 18:58, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
"Ms. Delise discusses the death of James Chapple Jr. She states that “Mr. Chapple received severe injuries but fully recovered and was discharged from the hospital.” Mr. Chapple’s left arm was amputated, his right arm was badly mauled. A full recovery is impossible in this circumstance. Mr. Chapple’s injuries were so severe that a bill changing Tennessee law regarding vicious dogs was introduced. Video equipment was set up in Mr. Chapple’s hospital room so he could testify to legislators. Mr. Chapple lived long enough to see the bill signed into law. As a hospital nurse, I recognize that there are several reasons for discharge from the hospital, one is recovery, and another is that there is no further treatment that can be offered to the patient, they are discharged home with family care and Home Health nursing care. The listing of cardiovascular complications on the death certificate would not be unexpected. As a Cardiac Rehab nurse, I would expect cardiovascular deterioration in a newly disabled person with underlying coronary artery disease." — Carol Miller, RN. ImTheIP is on the right track on the subject of discrediting others' work. Normal Op ( talk) 20:44, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
For single dog incidents (148 incidents), on the basis of the strict definition (exact match), breed descriptors in media reports were discordant for 32 of 148 (21.6%) dogs; animal control or local law enforcement assessment of breed differed from the media account for 45 of 129 (34.9%) dogs. On the basis of the expanded definition (any agreement between alleged breeds and mixes), breed descriptors among media reports were discordant for 19 of 148 (12.8%) dogs; animal control or local law enforcement assessment of breed differed from the media account for 18 of 129 (14.0%) dogs.That is, in 21.6% of all DBRFs, media outlets reported different specific breeds. In 78.4% of all DBRFs, they were in agreement. But the most interesting part is the last figure; in only 14.0% of all DBRFs did animal control and media reports diverge on what breed of dog was involved. Furthermore
With respect to pedigree or results of DNA analysis for single dog cases, pedigree documentation, parentage, or DNA information was available for 19 dogs. These data were discordant with media reports for 7 of 19 cases on the basis of the strict breed definition and 0 of 18 cases on the basis of the expanded breed definition.So, given the "strict breed definition", the media reports were correct in 12 out of 19 cases and in 18 out of 18 cases given the "expanded breed definition". It is obvious that someone who spends a lot of time investigating DBRFs can reach an even higher accuracy than what time-pressured journalists can. I.e, all else being equal, dogsbite.org must be a more reliable source for breed identification than media reports.
In sum, we believe that the physical and behavioral traits of pit bulls together with the commonly available knowledge of dog breeds typically acquired by potential dog owners or otherwise possessed by veterinarians or breeders are sufficient to inform a dog owner as to whether he owns a dog commonly known as a pit bull dog.
Regardless, there is a lot of evidence to support that breed information (especially in media reports, which is the *primary* source of breed data for these sources) is prone to high rates of inaccuracy without DNA.Lynn also collects breed identification photos for most dogs:
Of the 48 dog bite fatalities recorded in 2019, a record 81% (39) had some form of an identification photograph, the highest percentage since we began our collection effort. Pit bulls and their mixes represent 74% of all images collected in 2019. Of the 39 cases with breed identification photographs, 59% (23) contained images captured or republished by news media; 59% (23) contained images located on social media pages of the dog's owner or family members; and 49% (19) contained images that were the result of DogsBite research and otherwise may have gone unpublished.
"For 401 dogs described in various media accounts, reported breed differed for 124 (30.9%); for 346 dogs with both media and animal control breed reports, breed differed for 139 (40.2%). Valid breed determination was possible for only 45 (17.6%) DBRFs; 20 breeds, including 2 known mixes, were identified.-- Valid breed determination for only 17.6% of the incidents does not infer confidence in the breed data attributed to DBRFs by any measure. The other 3 studies validate the discrepancies between casual breed assumptions by visual inspection vs. actual DNA results -- ergo pictures are not a reliable method for determining breed. Therefore, even if there were pictures for 100% of the dogs involved, that would still not serve to validate breed and any site/individual claiming otherwise is going counter to the conclusions in the studies on this subject matter -- importantly, the studies found that even those familiar with dogs and breeds (veterinarians, shelter staff, etc.) are prone to being unable to accurately identify a dog's breed(s). Furthermore, there are far too many bully-type breeds (and even more bully-type mixes) that look very similar to the 3-5 breeds classified as pit bulls to be able to assert (as a fact) that a dog is a specific breed based only on a picture or shelter label etc. If a site is going to make breed-specific assertions about risk; then that site needs to be breed-specific -- and what these studies have concluded is that without DNA, any breed-specific claims are likely to be inaccurate and therefore cannot be used as a reliable source (for breed information). The main issue with these sites is that while they are entitled to guess/assume/suspect the breed(s) of a dog, they cannot with any reasonable amount of certainly or authority claim that their breed assumptions are "facts" without DNA (as per cited studies) -- and doing so is at best disingenuous. Canine DNA is far too complex for visual breed identification to be accurate which is why DNA is needed and is currently the most accurate method for valid breed determination -- without DNA, breed is just a guess. Michael2468b ( talk) 04:04, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Thus, pit bull and American Staffordshire Terrier would be concordant, but pit bull and pit bull mix would be discordant, as would American Staffordshire Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier mix.In other words, if media reported pit bull and animal control reported pit bull mix, they consider that a missclassification. Such errors are completely unsurprising as journalists aren't experts. In their expanded definition, they lump different types of pit bulls together:
For the expanded definition, concordances related to pit bull-type dogs were considered when reported as pit bull, pit bull terrier, pit bull mix, pit bull terrier mix, American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, or any alleged mix thereof.Thus, yielding a much lower missclassification rate. The classification scheme used on the sites in question is, as far as I can tell much closer to the expanded definition than the strict one.
These data were discordant with media reports for 7 of 19 cases on the basis of the strict breed definition and 0 of 18 cases on the basis of the expanded breed definition. ... For multiple dog cases, pedigree documentation, parentage, or DNA information was available for 28 dogs. These data were discordant with media reports for 7 of 28 (25.0%) cases on the basis of the strict breed definition and 0 of 28 (0%) cases on the basis of the expanded breed definition.And this is for the media reports which obviously are less accurate than the animal control reports. Interestingly the study doesn't report the breed of the 45 dogs determined, I wonder why!
Bite risk by breed from the literature review and bite severity by breed ... Injuries from Pitbull's and mixed breed dogs were both more frequent and more severe.The claim implies that breed determination without DNA is possible (or else the whole metastudy is bogus).
Anecdotal/personal
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** FWIW, as an anecdotal example, my neighbor has a smaller Dogo Argentino mix (it's 65 pounds whereas most Dogo Argentinos are around 100 pounds) and when she adopted him from the shelter, he was labeled as an "American Pit Bull Terrier mix". However, she bought a DNA test at the vet and the results were (if I remember correctly) something like 60% Dogo Argentino, 20% Labrador Retriever, and the balance of his DNA was a mix of several other breeds including Boston Terrier and Swiss Shepherd -- no mention of American Pit Bull Terrier in his DNA. So this is just an example of how dogs with bully-type ancestry and features commonly get misidentified as "pit bulls" just because of their physical characteristics. Also, I thought the dog was more of an American Bulldog mix - but I was wrong as well... and I'm pretty familiar with most of the bully breeds. Michael2468b ( talk) 21:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) |
"Do not use the talk page as a forum or soapbox for discussing the topic. The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article, not vent your feelings about it."Normal Op ( talk) 22:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
"traditional fighting dog lines had been diluted” to the degree that such dogs were often now found to be ‘near types’ that fell outside the Section 1 classifications."One not-necessarily reliable source cites a weak methodology to claim Labrador retrievers attack the most or rather, that the most frequently owned breed is responsible for the greatest proportion of attacks for which insurance is claimed. (And maybe that Labrador owners are more likely have insurance than are pit bull owners.) GPinkerton ( talk) 23:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
I came across following write up about Mark Durie. Would that be considered reliable source for Criticism of Joe Biden article (I am contemplating for).
https://www.jns.org/opinion/joe-biden-courts-islam-not-muslims/
Bookku ( talk) 12:41, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Ibn Warraq is a notable critic of Islam, and his use at criticism of Islam is probably appropriate. Can he also be used as a WP:RS at other Islam related articles? There is a discussion at Talk:Superstitions_in_Muslim_societies#RfC_Whether_to_allow_Ibn_Warraq_and_Swami_Vivekananda_opinions_in_the_article? on whether he is a reliable source for the claim that the "rituals of the Pilgrimage to Mecca" constitute superstition. The source is Warraq's Why I Am Not a Muslim published by Prometheus Books. Warraq is controversial ( Ibn_Warraq#Reception) and not an academic. VR talk 11:30, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
As related to the request for views on Central Tibetan Administration [13], there are other sources for which guidance is needed. Edits were deleted today on Yarchen Gar [14] with the reason stated as the sources are advocacy groups. The deletion of the sources creates a void in RS regarding the reported cultural genocide in Tibet. Similar deletions of text and sources occur in the 11th Panchen Lama [15] and in Sinicization of Tibet [16] where UNESCO information is characterized as "daft hackery". In Antireligious campaigns in China, sources and text detailing the sequence of events in the persecution of Tibetan Buddhists from 1989-present were threatened with removal [17].
The sources being challenged and deleted include International Campaign for Tibet/ICT, UNESCO, Tibet Post International/The Tibet Post, Tibet Watch, UNPO, Free Tibet, and Radio Free Asia. Verified RS also deleted include BBC UK, and The Statesman.
A list with links to sources' home pages, and to a few citations among others. (The diffs above contain the specific reports used from each source, and can be provided in separate diffs here if needed):
In the pages listed above and in other related pages, may these sources (all, most, exceptions) be used with inline citations? The diffs also illustrate the voids in information if the sources cannot be used in any form. Although these sources are offered together in this discussion, each can be separated into its own discussion/RfC if that's advised.
Hope the request isn't unnecessarily complicated or redundant, but what reports reveal is China's history of censoring information [2] seems to include restricted access inside Tibet [3] [4] and therefore to RS from other sources. Thanks so much! Pasdecomplot ( talk) 13:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
refutesthe facts concerning Chinese colonialism is a day that has not, and will not, dawn. Academics may quibble and disagree, but the facts are unchanged and are very, very far from
refuted. That claim is a bright red soapbox with stars on. GPinkerton ( talk) 00:39, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
plenty of academics refuting such claims, which demonstrates either bad faith or ignorance either of the meaning of the verb "to refute" or of the history of communism with Chinese characteristics. It is not my job to educate others on current affairs, but the incontrovertible fact of genocide in Inner Mongolia is a matter of history, not of dispute. Claims to the contrary are spurious face-saving attempts to rewrite the record. Brown, Kerry (2007-07-01). "The Cultural Revolution in Inner Mongolia 1967–1969: The Purge of the "Heirs of Genghis Khan"". Asian Affairs. 38 (2): 173–187. doi: 10.1080/03068370701349128. ISSN 0306-8374.
The Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region (IMAR), sandwiched between the Mongolian People's Republic and the PRC, was to be one of the worst affected areas of China during the CR [[[Cultural Revolution]]]. While the impact of the CR came slightly late to the area, and extended mainly over the period 1967 to 1969, it was to result in over 22,000 deaths, and 300,000 injuries, according to official statistics. Demographic studies have shown that, based on the almost zero growth rate of the population from 1965 to 1975, the real level of casualties may have reached up to 100,000 deaths. Almost every person of Mongolian ethnicity in the region was affected in some way by the events of the CR. These have a claim to being acts of genocide, and are a wound that lingers to this day.I will not comment on the motives behind the wholly unreasonable suggestion of a block. If others see it as an attempt to silence, that is their own inference. GPinkerton ( talk) 08:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC) [40] This message does show the calibre of the Chinese-controlled media's defensive and embarrassed posturing quite well, and illustrates the usual desire of that side of the argument to resort to personal attacks, being unable to engage meaningfully with the mountain of evidence. In short, a failure to refute evidence implicating the PRC ultimately leads to contentless ad hominems from its apologists. GPinkerton ( talk) 08:42, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
they should not be subject to deletions and additional challenges. Even material from RSes is subject to WP:WEIGHT considerations, since verifiability does not guarantee inclusion.The use of these sources really depends on the context (e.g. which source you are trying to use, whether the topic is controversial, how is it covered in other sources, etc.). These sources are so different that we can’t really make a general statement about them all as a group. — MarkH21 talk 17:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
inline citations needed only for extraordinary reportsanywhere here. Inline citation (required for
any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article spaceby the verifiability policy) is not the same as in-text attribution (required for biased sources by the neutrality policy).Again, these are 8 very different sources that can be used very differently in different contexts. We don't need to find a global consensus on a rule that simultaneously applies to all 8 sources across all articles, besides the existing policies and guidelines (particularly WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS). If you have a content dispute over a particular statement being added to a particular article, then find consensus for that content on the talk page of that article.In general, these policies and guidelines will require you to use any other source that may have clear biases or unclear reliability with care, generally in-text attributed, and usually backed by separate RS coverage. Furthermore, if a source is making a statement that you can't find in any independent reliable source, it's probably not of sufficient due weight to be included in a particular article. — MarkH21 talk 02:11, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
We don't need to find a global consensus on a rule that simultaneously applies to all 8 sources–I suggest this section be closed henceforth. Radio Free Asia, which actually purports to be a news agency, can be the subject of the first separate discussion. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 02:57, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
*The statement about closing was made by @ CaradhrasAiguo:"I suggest this section be closed henceforth." The CON issue between @ GPinkerton & @ MarkH21 makes closing premature. (Posting notice of pings should remove CANVAS concerns (policy understood after pings were posted, have previously and duly clarified the pings and intention, as suggested by policy) ). Let's work towards consensus. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 13:12, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Where statements originating from dissenting organizations conflict with official Chinese claims, and where such statements are reused by go-to reliable sources, I would say they need not be attributed unless extraordinary), not that it may not need inline citations. They’re different things.There’s no CON issue here, because RSN isn’t expected to make blanket judgments for 8 very different sources across all contexts. This is becoming incredibly repetitive. — MarkH21 talk 13:23, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
genocide in Inner Mongolia(when his own source does not state that it definitively is) and accompanying personal attacks of
apologists for the PRC. Time for the block hammer to fall on both of these two. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 13:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
"...over the period 1967 to 1969, it was to result in over 22,000 deaths, and 300,000 injuries, according to official statistics. Demographic studies have shown that, based on the almost zero growth rate of the population from 1965 to 1975, the real level of casualties may have reached up to 100,000 deaths. Almost every person of Mongolian ethnicity in the region was affected in some way by the events of the CR. These have a claim to being acts of genocide, and are a wound that lingers to this day." I will not comment on the motives behind the wholly unreasonable suggestion of a block. If others see it as an attempt to silence, that is their own inference. GPinkerton, where the claim to genocide can also signify a stake. In Tibet, diffs (here/in CTA) state unequivocally that PRC policy is ethnic cleansing.
Given there is recent scholarly opinion (Robert Barnett) under "Debate on the intention of the PRC" refuting the unfounded cultural genocide claims, adding the category Category:Human rights abuses in China is spurious at best...[user] CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 04:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[41]. The link on Barnett leads to,
In 2008, [Barnett] said that it was time for accusations of cultural genocide to be dropped: "I think we have to get over any suggestion that the Chinese are ill-intentioned or trying to wipe out Tibet."[79] Barnett voiced his doubts in a review in the New York Review of Books: "Why, if Tibetan culture within Tibet is being 'fast erased from existence', [do] so many Tibetans within Tibet still appear to have a more vigorous cultural life, with over a hundred literary magazines in Tibetan, than their exile counterparts?"[80].
...but nevertheless it does appear to have happened.is used for a mischaracterization of pinging editors that had recently reached out to be helpful. Likewise, the use of "appear" mischaracterizes the ping to the editor closely involved in RSN, as it was suggested. Canvassing didn't happen; an allegation of CANVAS was already addressed with a ping notice; and it's unnecessary that the mischaracerization was again brought into a RSN thread, now by an involved administrator @ Valereee, since policy recommends such things belong on editor's talk, not in the page's talk, and I would imagine certainly not in RSN discussions.
...with over a hundred literary magazines in Tibetan. Are independent publishing houses in Tibet publishing the literary magazines without oversight or editorial control by the Chinese state controlled media? Given the preponderance of RS on censorship in China, and on the ongoing cultural genocide, Barnett's opinion that the number of literary magazines is evidence there's not a cultural genocide should qualify Barnett as an unreliable academic source. Furthermore, Barnett's opinion comes from a review for NYBook Review - it's not published in a scholarly peer reviewed journal, nor in a book. An opinion written for an unvetted book review by an unreliable academic source does not support claims that scholars have refuted cultural genocide in Tibet. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:27, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
References
The website summarises the voting record of MPs in England and Wales using a transparent process. Would it be reasonable to describe an MP's voting record using material from TheyWorkForYou? E.g. Craig Mackinlay#Parliamentary voting record. 92.40.186.147 ( talk) 14:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
We will have to trust his word on this; tracking every single bit of secondary legislation related to climate change that went through the Commons without a vote since 2015 would be theoretically possible, but immensely time-consuming (and dull). There is also the minor issue of the chamber having no attendance records, so we’d find out what passed, but not who was there when it happened, which would bring us back to square one.
References
While editing several pages concerning Tibet, reincarnated tulkus, Chinese religious persecution in Tibet, and Chinese sinicization policies, the governmental source Central Tibetan Administration has been challenged as being an "avocacy group". I differ, since it's an elected body which represents the exile community, and its press releases [51], statements and reports [52] [53] on Tibet are as valid as reports issued by other state governments regarding their own territories.
The CTA is cited by msm and RS including by the BBC UK [54], reported on by the NYTimes [55] and regularly cited by Indian newspapers, including The Statesman [56] and The Times of India [57] and the Economic Times [58], and the Hindustan Times [59] the Deccan Herald and by other RS internationally. It can be referred to as the "Tibetan government in exile" in sources, but that's not its proper name. Since it's formation in 1959, CTA evolved into a democratically elected body in 2011, as it is today.
For context and during the same time, it's been reporting on the brutal effects of China's policies in Tibet, called a cultural genocide since at least 2008 by observers (including here: "Dalai Lama: 'Cultural genocide' behind self-immolations" [60] ), underscored by the leaked Xinjiang papers that also exposed Chen Quanguo's role in Tibet, which it says shifted to Xinjiang, along with the expansion of Chinese reeducation camps (reported in Tibet in 2009 by ICT, and reporting monks abandonned their monastery to avoid a "reeducation center" [61] while a reeducation camp was identified by HRW as Ningtri in 2017 [62] ). [1] Reports of the Tibetan genocide from common RS are difficult to locate since the access of foreigners is restricted. There hasn't been a leak in Tibet like the Xinjiang papers, making CTA reports more critical for citations. Most readily accessible reports come from sources like Tibet Watch, International Campaign for Tibet (has become increasingly trustworthy) and Free Tibet, some of which also cite CTA.
What are the thoughts here on using and citing Central Tibetan Administration as a reliable source? I am confident in their reports, especially given the precept of not lying [63] which is an integral aspect of Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetans, as well as the CTA. Thanks so much. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 22:05, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Since the CTA represents Tibetans—No, it does not "represent" residents of the Tibet Autonomous Region or Tibetans in the other provinces. You need something such as Gallup polling asking the specific CTA / TGIE question, not your own viewpoints, to demonstrate otherwise.
wouldn't it follow that the CTA's general statements on what Tibetans are experiencing in Tibet would also be usable?—That would be a statement of fact, which other editors have already explained to you is not an admissible use. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 23:20, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
Letting editors know I pinged @ Usedtobecool and @ Adoring nanny before any responses were posted. I later pinged @ Newslinger since the editor's involved with RSN. All were pinged to build CON. Thanks. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 20:41, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
there's CON that CTA can be cited as a governmental source(it's not clear to me what that even means). Every editor here has expressed that a statement by the CTA should generally/preferably only be used if it is mentioned in a secondary RS, and that any such inclusion should be in-text attributed to the CTA. — MarkH21 talk 01:19, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
References
Good evening I was reading something about Military Frontier and stumbled upon wikipedia article and after that upon a Noel Malcolm book about Bosnia [64] also I've noticed that he is quoted a lot here but still has some controversy behind him with his other books [65]. There is probably a discussion about every historian in the world ,but still there is a lot of opposite opinions about him. So is he a RS and why is he so lets say controversial ? Thank you Theonewithreason ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Is Masala! a reliable source for south Asian entertainment news? There is a discussion about this at Talk:Ismail_Hussain_(singer)#Masala. VR talk 20:31, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
I came across this site while reviewing a DYK hook for promotion to the main page. The hook was:
When I looked at the nominated article, Baburao Shedmake, I found that the claim that Shedmake had "won" multiple battles against the British was sourced almost entirely to a website called "Live History India". The website's article on the topic includes a number of colorful claims, including that in his first battle, Shedmake "completely routed the British Army, while inflicting serious losses of men and equipment", that in the second battle, Shedmake's men "pelted stones at the troops, and didn't let up till the troops retreated with heavy losses!" and that in a third battle "the two sides battled it out bitterly, and again, Sedmake and his men emerged victorious". [66]
Now comparing this account to that from a couple of more clearly reliable sources in the article, an Indian government source states that "Two indecisive battles were fought at Saganpur and Bamanpeth in April 1858", [67] and an article on JSTOR from Modern Asian Studies states that the British sent a force of 1700 to put down the rebellion and that "being unaccustomed to operating in such a jungle and mountainous area, the force failed to make any dent on their opponents and were forced to retreat." [68] These accounts hardly accord with that from Live History India.
Taking a closer look at the Live History India website, it describes its "vision" as follows: Through our work and your support, Live History India aims to create a platform to help Indians and India lovers rediscover the many facets of this great country. Revive and bring forth the best works on India and champion all the efforts by individuals, groups, institutions and governments to restore our great legacy. A worthy goal perhaps, but then it does make it sound like an advocacy website.
On its "In the Press" page, there are just six mentions listed, most from around the time the site was getting established, some of which state that numerous unnamed historians were involved with the project. On its "Disclaimer" page however, it says Certain elements of the Site will contain material submitted by users. LHI accepts no responsibility for the content, accuracy, conformity to applicable laws of such material.
Courtesy ping to the creator of the wikipedia article on Shedmake, Shivashree. Gatoclass ( talk) 10:27, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
Reliable source? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 12:02, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
Is Countere.com a reliable source? It doesn't look to be at first glance but first glances can be misleading and I didn't see it in the archives here. A citation was added at Jessica Krug, which is a BLP and a bit of a sensitive topic in general. Want input from the greater community as to whether we should consider this website RS or not. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:43, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
See https://www.mangauk.com/blade-of-the-immortal-interview-with-hiroaki-samura/ The site has been blocked for about seven years but they keep featuring unique interviews for manga authors. Tintor2 ( talk) 11:55, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
LordRogalDorn has been trying to add quotes from the works of two 16th-century historians, Nicolaus Olahus and István Szamosközy in the article about the Origin of the Romanians. Two editors made several attempts to explain him that the two books could not be cited without a reference to a peer-reviewed secondary or tertiary source. He debates our opinion. Do you think we can quote 16th and 17th-century historians' views about the Romanians' ethnogenesis without establishing their relevance with a reference to a peer-reviewed work? Thank you for your comments. Borsoka ( talk) 02:00, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
At Democratic Union Party (Syria) there are two editors who defend the inclusion of several sources that are not on topic and also try to conceal the source Harun Yahya (pen name of Adnan Oktar) as a source for the page, who is a well known Turkish conspiracy theorist. They claim that I remove a phrase about the PKK- PYD- KCK relation by my edit, which I don't.
The involved editors in the dispute are:
The editors who want to keep Harun Yahya (who they disguise as "Bill Rehkopf") and several sources that do not mention the KCK for a phrase mentioning the KCK.
1: Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم
2: Thepharoah17
The editor who wants to remove Harun Yahya and irrelevant sources that do not mention the KCK.
The only admin mentioned in the dispute.
They claim an Admin was involved in the wording of the phrase regarding the relation between the PKK and the PYD and therefore they revert me.
Most of the 9 sources don't even mention the KCK, so they force the inclusion of the sources in dispute by edit war and at are claiming Admin support. I don't remove the phrase. I just spilt and move the phrase according to their relevance and the relevance of the sources. According to the talk page Ibn Amr also agrees on the KCK part, but only on the talk page, his edits are an edit war. It is hard for me to believe that an Admin agreed to the use and concealment of Harun Yahya as a source (I am pretty sure they didn't, they weren't involved anymore, as I pointed out who Harun Yahya/Adnan Oktar is) and the use of other sources that don't even mention the KCK for a phrase that focuses on the KCK. They agreed on the wording, yes. But they can't back it up with multiple high quality sources as demanded from the Admin.
Here the diff for it.
Here is my first improvement of the page from the 1 September 2020 (onwards I only mention the month, the edits are all in 2020)
diff In which I removed some of the sources which didn't mention the KCK and split and moved the phrase in two. The KCK part went to the section Ideology and the other part about the foundation into History. I also clarified the sources like adding the author/publisher of an article to the source. The edit was reverted on the 1 September by Ibn Amr with the edit summary "the sentence you removed is very well sourced (10 or more) and took us (...) weeks to reach consensus on it. See Talk page, use it and seek consensus BEFORE removing this sentence"
I then used the Talk page repeatedly on the 2 and 3 September,
but there where no answers about Harun Yahya by anyone. ThePharoah17 and also Ibn Amr re-included Harun Yahya and the sources not mentioning the KCK. The Harun Yahya source is difficult to find as at first sight, he appears as Bill Rehkopf. In my opinion Harun Yahya is not a good source for a controversial phrase which I also stated at the talk page. Also sources that do not mention the KCK should not be used to source a phrase about the KCK.
Both, the KCK part of the phrase as well as the PYD-PKK connection would still be sourced with 3 sources. But as there is no founder of the PYD mentioned by name in any source but it is claimed that it was the PKK who founded it, as to me it is better to move this to the history part instead of the lead. A source with no name of a founder is no high quality source for a foundation. (Turkish sources would very probably deliver the names of the PKK-members amongst the PYD founders of 2003, but they don't and it would also not be a quality source) Nor is Harun Yahya. After my edit I did on the 16 September
here the diff,
the sources would have been clarified and not just a link as it is currently sometimes the case. The others prefer the current version with the unrelated sources.
For transparency: Before I came here with the dispute, the dispute was discussed at the ANI, but there I was told this is the wrong forum, and to go to another Noticeboard like RSN. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 10:04, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
For sourcing the article " The Pet Goat", do Ledge of Liberty or Google Answers qualify as reliable sources? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 05:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm the other involved party here. Obviously those sources are NOT reliable, nor used in the article. Here is the problem: the story "The Pet Goat" was published in the book Reading Mastery - Level 2 Storybook 1 by Engelmann, Siegfried. There is no disagreement, Fourthords agrees, and many reliable sources confirm it. The question is which edition of the book was it published in for the purpose of adding an entry in the The_Pet_Goat#Editions section. Now this is pretty silly because there is no evidence it was not published in every edition or any edition. Furthermore those links above show dozens of people who all say the same thing. Is there is a mass conspiracy? Fourthords has given no reason not to list any edition of the book in the editions section. The onus is on him to verify that story is in the book, reliable sources say it is and enough metadata is provided to find a copy of the book. -- Green C 13:35, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
VK ( https://vk.com/) is a social media service, popular in the Russian-language community (mostly in Russia itself, I think, but outside of it as well). Although it is not inherently Russian-specific, and there are posts and in English and other non-Russian languages, it is predominantly Russian; it is the Russian equivalent to Facebook. Is it citable as a WP:RS? Does the answer turn on whether the VK poster is believed to be the subject of the article? Or whether the account from which the VK poster posts is a verified account?
Perennial sources says of Facebook: "Facebook is considered generally unreliable because it is a self-published source with no editorial oversight." The same is true of VK, so I would expect that it is not a reliable source (at least with respect to non-verified accounts).
To put some meat on this, the basis for this question is this edit to Alexandra Elbakyan; the particular citation is to what is likely Elbakyan's VK page at [75]. I removed it on the ground that VK is equivalent to Facebook, a documented nonRS; but it was reinstated by the editor with an edit summary that they believe the account to authentically belong to Elbakyan.
I note that VK does have a mechanism to verify that an account belongs to a the user it claims to be (akin to Twitter's (now-suspended) verified account process), which results in the account being marked with a 100%-verified logo (as shown on that VK page). The purported Elbakyan VK page at issue here does not have that logo; it is not a verified account, although realistically, I have no reason to believe it to be an imposter.
My own take is that a posting from a non-verified account fails WP:RS and should not be used; a posting from a verified account could be used, subject to the general guidance at WP:BLPSELFPUB.
I don't see the reliability of VK having been discussed on this noticeboard, and since it's a very popular site in the Russian-speaking community, and the issue is likely to ramifications beyond this article, I thought it would be worth a discussion here rather than just on article's talk page.
It doesn't seem to have much traction as a source on Wikipedia; eyeballing a couple link searches ( [76], [77]) there are only a few hundred links to it. Most are not in article space, and I suspect the majority of the ones that are are in articles are there as ELs rather than as references, for example as at Centr and Bolshoi Theatre. I suspect that's because of a general realization that it's not a RS. TJRC ( talk) 21:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
VK should be blacklisted as it is never useful for any purpose unlike Facebook that is sometimes useful for primary material. 🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 ( talk) 22:14, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
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on reply) 00:06, 23 September 2020 (UTC)Generally unreliable, just as Facebook ( RSP entry), LinkedIn ( RSP entry), Quora ( RSP entry), Reddit ( RSP entry), Twitter ( RSP entry), etc. are generally unreliable. VK (VKontakte) is a social network that primarily consists of user-generated content. If a VK account is a verified account or if the VK account owner is verified in some way, then content published on the VK account can be used under the restrictions of WP:ABOUTSELF as if it were published on the account owner's personal website. — Newslinger talk 05:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Can I ask where do we stand on TV.com as a source? Govvy ( talk) 09:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Can anyone verify if filmmusicreporter.com can be used as a reliable source? It looks like back in 2011, there was a short discussion about it on the WP:FILM talk page, and it looked like the two editors who commented came to the conclusion that it was an WP:SPS. It looks like the source is popping up again, specifically at Spontaneous, and a few other upcoming film articles that I can't recall at the moment. BOVINEBOY 2008 09:13, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Should lostarmour.info be blacklisted? 176.88.136.86 ( talk) 08:48, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
The site is a Russian image board that claims to count the number destroyed military equipment in modern conflicts (Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan etc.) by using Twitter images of the purportedly destroyed military equipment (Twitter is a non RS on Wikipedia). I think this source, currently being widely used in modern combat articles should immediately be blacklisted/deprecated due its unreliability. 176.88.136.86 ( talk) 08:48, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Not necessarily blacklisted, but just ignored, that is not used. Simple non-RS issue. Zezen ( talk) 09:39, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Is The New Statesman a generally reliable source? At a glance I can't find any prior discussions on it at RSN, weirdly, yet it's been cited to support other sources' reliability, and we cite it at WP:RSP for issues with the Morning Star. We use this source a lot across articles. It has sometimes been alleged that the paper has a slight left-wing bias, although the question here is is it generally reliable, particularly for statements of fact, as a source, and are there any areas where it is not reliable? Does attribution need to be given when used as a source? ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 21:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Is Geoconservation Research ( http://gcr.khuisf.ac.ir/) a reliable journal? It is run by the Islamic Azad University of Isfahan, and states that its editor in chief is well respected paleontologist Michael J. Benton. Since its founding in 2018, it has published 18 articles, which relate to various issues, mostly geotourism and geoheritage related. The article I wish to cite is Burmese Amber Fossils, Mining, Sales and Profits by respected palaeontologist George Poinar and Sieghard Ellenberger, about Burmese amber. There's a lot of controversy about Burmese amber, which is mined in a conflict zone in northern Kachin State in Myanmar, and whether or not profits from its sale go towards funding conflict, and many of the claims made in the paper are not verifiable from external sources. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 21:26, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
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on reply) 22:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
This is relevant because the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology has proposed a moratorium on publishing for specimens collected after 2017, implying that funding the Tatmadaw is the problem, not the KIA. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 23:09, 24 September 2020 (UTC)Two former mine owners, speaking through an interpreter in phone interviews, say taxes have been even steeper since government troops took control of the area. Both shut their mines when they became unprofitable after the government takeover, and almost all deep mines are now out of business, dealers here corroborate. Only shallow mines and perhaps a few secret operations are still running.
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on reply) 21:20, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Is the National Geographic so reliable that Wikipedia needs to accept elements of an anti-semitic conspiracy theory based on an NG article that iself lacks any reliable sourcing? See the history of Adam Weishaupt and the talkpage section titled " Was Weishaupt Jewish?" for background. -- Hegvald ( talk) 09:25, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
In 2015 Rupert Murdoch bought 73% of The National Geographic Society's assets, including the magazine, books, maps, and all other Media assets. Then 1n March 2019 The Walt Disney Corporation acquired that 73%,
The magazine is now published by "National Geographic Partners" (AKA Disney) instead of of The National Geographic Society, which retains 27% ownership but has no control over content. [94]
Since then the magazine has become an unreliable source. [95] [96] [97] -- Guy Macon ( talk) 12:09, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
I have seen the online article that Vexations ( talk · contribs) mentions above, and it is telling that the NG has already corrected a claim about Mayer Amschel Rothschild that had originally been in the Hernandez article (see box at the bottom of her article). In either case it would appear that the best secondary sources on Weishaupt's origin are most likely to be the two articles by Brökel and Hausfelder that deal specifically with Weishaupt's family and are published in German regional historical periodicals, neither of which, alas, is available to me. Somebody with access to a good German university library could probably find them. (Gerhard Brökel "Adam Weishaupt: der Gründer des Geheimbundes der Illuminaten und seine Vorfahren in Brilon", Jahrbuch Hochsauerlandkreis 2004. Edmund Hausfelder, "Die Familie des Adam Weishaupt und seine Schwiegereltern Sausenhofer", in Sammelblatt des Historischen Vereins Ingolstadt 120 (2011), p. 215-245. Both are mentioned by JevaSinghAnand ( talk · contribs) in a comment from 2015. (Jeva Singh-Anand also appears to have been an authority on the illuminati and a collaborator of Josef Wages, mentioned above by Ian.thomson ( talk · contribs).) -- Hegvald ( talk) 13:22, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
What is the reliability of the HuffPost?
An earlier version of this story incorrectly claimed [...] This was incorrect and was changed within 15 minutes of the story being published.Issuing corrections with such speed is an indicator of reliability, not a strike against it. All publications make similarly mistaken claims from time to time, but it is only the reliable ones which correct them speedily and effectively. — Bilorv ( talk) 21:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
often random trash much as they are on Forbes, as David Gerard said above. XOR'easter ( talk) 04:40, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Generally unreliable for factual reportingbut unfortunately your one stated "factual" objection is just your opinion. — Bilorv ( talk) 21:31, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Any evidence they have recently published outright lies as news, not opinion? Slatersteven ( talk) 09:03, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
I've noticed Douban increasingly being mentioned in Chinese film articles (in particular the article for the science fiction film The Wandering Earth) From what I've read Douban seems to be like IMDB and their scores are WP:USERGENERATED, and so their scores should only be used in exceptional cases, when other publications have decided they might actually be notable.
Has Douban been discussed before? (I considered asking Project Film but they wouldn't necessarily know anything about the reliability of Chinese website, even if they are film website so this seemed like a good place to ask.) It would seem to be an unreliable source. Am I wrong? -- 109.77.196.143 ( talk) 23:50, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
We have around 1,197 citations to Douban per douban.com . Hemiauchenia ( talk) 00:31, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. It will be very helpful to be able to point to this discussion as needed. -- 109.76.210.200 ( talk) 06:15, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
There is recent reporting on RedState having pseudonymous writers who publish misinformation and do not disclose their conflicts of interest. [104] This has implications for the reliability of RedState. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 17:34, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
As an " opinion website" that in my view doesn't distinguish between opinion and other content, RedState shouldn't be used to source facts. starship .paint ( talk) 13:07, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source? Particularly re: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Early_Years_1965%E2%80%931972&oldid=980575645#cite_ref-Montreux70_6-0 @ Dyolf87:. ― Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 08:13, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm in the process of creating a new article, and I wanted to know if this webpage is reliable [105]. It appears to be a blog that comes from a seemingly trustworthy source. I understand that blogs usually aren't reliable, but this seems to have undergone a fact-checking process. However, I am unsure if the fact-checking process was good enough because the blog does not cite any sources. I am only asking because this website does not appear to have ever been cited on the English Wikipedia. All help will be appreciated. Thanks. Scorpions13256 ( talk) 22:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I have not seen one online article that reveals the true birthdate of actress Minnie Ashley. As a direct descendant that shares the same pedigree (I am the great grandson of Minnie Ashley’s brother) I would like to know how any of the Wikipedia articles about Minnie Ashley can be corrected. My knowledge is first hand and I can prove through various documents that were retrieved from Vital Statistics, Published city street directories and family photos and information in letters written by other members of my family.
See discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Adding IMDb, Rotten Tomatoes, and Metacritic to external links (wherever possible). -- Guy Macon ( talk) 22:59, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
Atlas Obscura is a website dedicated to documenting interesting and obscure places. We currently have 1,500 citations to Atlas Obscura per atlasobscura.com . My main issue with their website is that while it does have a magazine section with articles written by professional writers, these only make up less than half (668) of the citations to the website per atlasobscura.com/articles , the rest are place entires, which are entirely user generated content, which we have 834 citations to per atlasobscura.com/places . Hemiauchenia ( talk) 19:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I removed a claim from the Pretzel article that "Modern scholars identify the pretzel as a symbol of human sacrifice to the Celtic goddess Sirona.[dubious – discuss] The rope of dough with three holes represents a three-part noose, which was used to kill three people by hanging" sourced to this Atlas Obscura article, I was reverted by Spudlace, who claimed that they would "look at it later". The source of the claim in the Atlas Obscura article cites William Woys Weaver, who states
But the meaning of the pretzel hadn’t always been Christian. Food historian William Woys Weaver, who has heavily researched the baked good, says the pretzel’s Christian origins are fabricated. “There is no documentation whatsoever for the invention in 610 of the pretzel by a monk,” he says. The pretzel’s origins actually predate Christianity by hundreds of years. Their twisty shape is a symbol of Sirona, the Gaulish goddess of spring and the sacrificial rites associated with the harvest. While the PFG saw the Holy Trinity in the holes of the pretzel, Weaver says the pretzel’s form is “a votive symbol of a triplicate noose, the type used to hang three people at once, since three deaths were considered more potent than one.”
William Woys Weaver descibes himself as "an independent food historian and author of numerous books, including Culinary Ephemera: An Illustrated History and Sauerkraut Yankees: Pennsylvania Dutch Food and Foodways. He also directs the Keystone Center for the Study of Regional Foods and Food Tourism and maintains the Roughwood Seed Collection for heirloom food plants." I don't think he can be considered a reliable source for these fairly extraordinary claims, and the credulous way they are treated in the article makes me question the reliability of Atlas Obscura's article content. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 23:26, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
[106] being used on George Richard Robinson. Here's the diff. Was I right to revert the change? Are companies at which the individual works reliable sources for information about said individual?
I wrote an article about Honey Badger (men's rights), a word for female men's rights activists, substantial mainstream sources. The term itself was first used on avoiceformen.com/women/to-the-women-that-arent-like-that/#comment-1275480260 which is a page on the blacklist. By definition there is no substitute for the first use of the term. I asked for it to be whitelisted for this specific purpose, and was directed here. -- GRuban ( talk) 12:27, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Also, I have concerns about the sentence in the Honey Badger (men's rights) article that the comment is intended to verify: "The term 'Honey Badgers' was originated in 2012 by Dr. Tara J. Palmatier when an AVfM writer asked women men's rights activists for a 'cool name' to describe themselves." Even if the Disqus comment were verified to have been written by Palmatier, citing the comment by itself would not be enough to show that Palmatier is the originator of the term; the comment would only establish that Palmatier used the term in 2012 in response to the post on A Voice for Men. Without a reliable secondary source referring to either this AVfM post or Palmatier's comment, I don't think this would be due in the Honey Badger (men's rights) article.
From your links, it's clear that news publications have quoted Palmatier, so if any reliable secondary sources have mentioned at least one of the following:
then the requested link is eligible to be cited in the Honey Badger (men's rights) article as a primary source to supplement the secondary source. Alternatively, if a reliable secondary source has described Palmatier as the individual who coined the Honey Badger term, then that source by itself would be sufficient to make the claim in the Honey Badger (men's rights) article without needing the AVfM page. Otherwise, I believe it would be best to exclude this information as undue weight. — Newslinger talk 09:39, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 310 | Archive 311 | Archive 312 | Archive 313 | Archive 314 | Archive 315 | → | Archive 320 |
We have an AfD going on for list of fatal dog attacks in the United States and one of the questions people have about the page is about reliable source coverage of the subject as a group.
Among the websites offered for evidence of this coverage are dogsbite.org, dogbitelaw.com, daxtonsfriends.com, animals24-7.org, nationalpitbullvictimawareness.org, and fatalpitbullattacks.com
Not looking for opinions on notability here, of course, nor for people to weigh in at that AfD. Just for opinions as to whether advocacy websites, law firm websites, etc. like these should be considered reliable sources in this context.
It's very much not my topic area -- it just seems like I keep coming across thinly veiled anti-pitbull advocacy on Wikipedia lately, and I want to make sure I'm not missing something about these kinds of sources. I know that in some areas there are advocacy organizations routinely do high quality work, and perhaps these are among them. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:29, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Attack data are often seriously flawed with respect to collection, reporting, and analysis. In the United States, the term “pit bull” does not mean APBT: it is a generic term that includes all the bull and terrier breeds, and sometimes the other bull breeds such as boxers, bull mastiffs, American bulldogs (Rowan, 1987). Breed identification is seldom ver-ified or consistent (Beck et al., 1975), and even experts cannot always tell whether a dog is a pit bull (Rowan, 1987). More seriously, breed identification often is based upon newspaper accounts.A 2013 paper in the JAVMA analysizes all US fatal dog attacks from 2000–2009 and notes that breed was only reliably identified for 17.6% of cases. Likewise, in a 2017 Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science paper, the authors found that large portions of hospital intake statistics are incomplete or unknown with regard to the breed, an example is
For example, Dwyer, Douglas, and van As (2007) claim that “pit bull terriers” and German Shepherd dogs—presumed to be correctly identified—were the most common breeds in their study to “attack” children, but they note that only 1% of their sample reported the presumed breed of the dog, a percentage far too low to permit generalizations about the other 99% of the sample.
Here are a few cases that Animals 24-7 considers to be pit bull deaths: In 2009, in Wisconsin, a 55-year-old woman, Louanne Okapal, died after being punched in the face by her horse. The horse had been frightened by a pit bull. In 2009, a 48-year-old Connecticut woman, Teresa Foss, died of a head injury after being hit by a pit bull. The dog hadn't bitten her. In 2010, 64-year-old Texas man Richard Martratt stabbed a pit bull and shot a catahoula after the two dogs attacked a border collie on his property. The man was not attacked by the dogs, but when authorities arrived he collapsed and died of a heart attack. In 2010 in Georgia, 14-year-old Miracle Parham fled after being frightened by a dog that witnesses described as a pit bull. She was fatally hit by a car. In 2013, 63-year-old James Harding was hit by a car after trying to pull away from two pitbulls. A 6-year-old girl was strangled by a chain to which a pit bull was attached. The year and location are not specified.and
Another case cited on DogsBite.org concerns a 57-year-old man from Tennessee, James Chapple, who suffered serious hand injuries from pit bulls in 2007. Four months later he died of atherosclerosis and alcoholism problems. Even so, DogsBite.org counts it as a death caused by pit bulls.PearlSt82 ( talk) 16:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
The Lee Institute’s forensic experts determined that Julia Mazziotto’s wounds had been inflicted postmortem and that the elderly woman had actually died of a cardiac arrhythmia. The dogs had not been involved in her death, but after the fact they had pawed, scratched, and bitten her body.PearlSt82 ( talk) 17:02, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
"An 80-year-old woman was fatally mauled in her home here on Monday by two pet pit bulls, the authorities said today. The woman, Julia Mazziotto, was bitten or clawed over 80 percent of her body, and the Bergen County medical examiner found that she had died of severe mutilating wounds inflicted by the dogs, said the county prosecutor ... the older of the two dogs ... was covered with blood..."Allegedly, according to Dickey pages 176-178, the daughter of the victim wanted her dogs back and so hired a third party (Lee Institute) to reevaluate the findings. Despite Lee's opinion that the dogs didn't kill the victim, a judge in the matter was unconvinced. So why are we second-guessing a judicial opinion on Wikipedia? This isn't helping Dickey's reliability (the evidence keeps piling up). By the way, here is a video of Mr. Phillips testifying before the Tennessee Senate Judiciary Committee in 2007 on changing their dog bite law after Mr. Chapple's death. Chapple's testimony was video'd from his hospital bed to present to the committee. The committee changed the Tenneessee law. Normal Op ( talk) 18:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
The results are reported below. More details about these attacks can be found on the authoritative and comprehensive web site of DogsBite.org, in the section on bite statistics.. Dogsbite.org does indeed count Julia Mazziotto as a pit bull fatality - see the New Jersey Section here. PearlSt82 ( talk) 18:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
35 U.S. dog bite-related fatalities occurred in 2007., and there are 35 incidents on the list, of which Chapple is one. PearlSt82 ( talk) 18:58, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
"Ms. Delise discusses the death of James Chapple Jr. She states that “Mr. Chapple received severe injuries but fully recovered and was discharged from the hospital.” Mr. Chapple’s left arm was amputated, his right arm was badly mauled. A full recovery is impossible in this circumstance. Mr. Chapple’s injuries were so severe that a bill changing Tennessee law regarding vicious dogs was introduced. Video equipment was set up in Mr. Chapple’s hospital room so he could testify to legislators. Mr. Chapple lived long enough to see the bill signed into law. As a hospital nurse, I recognize that there are several reasons for discharge from the hospital, one is recovery, and another is that there is no further treatment that can be offered to the patient, they are discharged home with family care and Home Health nursing care. The listing of cardiovascular complications on the death certificate would not be unexpected. As a Cardiac Rehab nurse, I would expect cardiovascular deterioration in a newly disabled person with underlying coronary artery disease." — Carol Miller, RN. ImTheIP is on the right track on the subject of discrediting others' work. Normal Op ( talk) 20:44, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
For single dog incidents (148 incidents), on the basis of the strict definition (exact match), breed descriptors in media reports were discordant for 32 of 148 (21.6%) dogs; animal control or local law enforcement assessment of breed differed from the media account for 45 of 129 (34.9%) dogs. On the basis of the expanded definition (any agreement between alleged breeds and mixes), breed descriptors among media reports were discordant for 19 of 148 (12.8%) dogs; animal control or local law enforcement assessment of breed differed from the media account for 18 of 129 (14.0%) dogs.That is, in 21.6% of all DBRFs, media outlets reported different specific breeds. In 78.4% of all DBRFs, they were in agreement. But the most interesting part is the last figure; in only 14.0% of all DBRFs did animal control and media reports diverge on what breed of dog was involved. Furthermore
With respect to pedigree or results of DNA analysis for single dog cases, pedigree documentation, parentage, or DNA information was available for 19 dogs. These data were discordant with media reports for 7 of 19 cases on the basis of the strict breed definition and 0 of 18 cases on the basis of the expanded breed definition.So, given the "strict breed definition", the media reports were correct in 12 out of 19 cases and in 18 out of 18 cases given the "expanded breed definition". It is obvious that someone who spends a lot of time investigating DBRFs can reach an even higher accuracy than what time-pressured journalists can. I.e, all else being equal, dogsbite.org must be a more reliable source for breed identification than media reports.
In sum, we believe that the physical and behavioral traits of pit bulls together with the commonly available knowledge of dog breeds typically acquired by potential dog owners or otherwise possessed by veterinarians or breeders are sufficient to inform a dog owner as to whether he owns a dog commonly known as a pit bull dog.
Regardless, there is a lot of evidence to support that breed information (especially in media reports, which is the *primary* source of breed data for these sources) is prone to high rates of inaccuracy without DNA.Lynn also collects breed identification photos for most dogs:
Of the 48 dog bite fatalities recorded in 2019, a record 81% (39) had some form of an identification photograph, the highest percentage since we began our collection effort. Pit bulls and their mixes represent 74% of all images collected in 2019. Of the 39 cases with breed identification photographs, 59% (23) contained images captured or republished by news media; 59% (23) contained images located on social media pages of the dog's owner or family members; and 49% (19) contained images that were the result of DogsBite research and otherwise may have gone unpublished.
"For 401 dogs described in various media accounts, reported breed differed for 124 (30.9%); for 346 dogs with both media and animal control breed reports, breed differed for 139 (40.2%). Valid breed determination was possible for only 45 (17.6%) DBRFs; 20 breeds, including 2 known mixes, were identified.-- Valid breed determination for only 17.6% of the incidents does not infer confidence in the breed data attributed to DBRFs by any measure. The other 3 studies validate the discrepancies between casual breed assumptions by visual inspection vs. actual DNA results -- ergo pictures are not a reliable method for determining breed. Therefore, even if there were pictures for 100% of the dogs involved, that would still not serve to validate breed and any site/individual claiming otherwise is going counter to the conclusions in the studies on this subject matter -- importantly, the studies found that even those familiar with dogs and breeds (veterinarians, shelter staff, etc.) are prone to being unable to accurately identify a dog's breed(s). Furthermore, there are far too many bully-type breeds (and even more bully-type mixes) that look very similar to the 3-5 breeds classified as pit bulls to be able to assert (as a fact) that a dog is a specific breed based only on a picture or shelter label etc. If a site is going to make breed-specific assertions about risk; then that site needs to be breed-specific -- and what these studies have concluded is that without DNA, any breed-specific claims are likely to be inaccurate and therefore cannot be used as a reliable source (for breed information). The main issue with these sites is that while they are entitled to guess/assume/suspect the breed(s) of a dog, they cannot with any reasonable amount of certainly or authority claim that their breed assumptions are "facts" without DNA (as per cited studies) -- and doing so is at best disingenuous. Canine DNA is far too complex for visual breed identification to be accurate which is why DNA is needed and is currently the most accurate method for valid breed determination -- without DNA, breed is just a guess. Michael2468b ( talk) 04:04, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Thus, pit bull and American Staffordshire Terrier would be concordant, but pit bull and pit bull mix would be discordant, as would American Staffordshire Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier mix.In other words, if media reported pit bull and animal control reported pit bull mix, they consider that a missclassification. Such errors are completely unsurprising as journalists aren't experts. In their expanded definition, they lump different types of pit bulls together:
For the expanded definition, concordances related to pit bull-type dogs were considered when reported as pit bull, pit bull terrier, pit bull mix, pit bull terrier mix, American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, or any alleged mix thereof.Thus, yielding a much lower missclassification rate. The classification scheme used on the sites in question is, as far as I can tell much closer to the expanded definition than the strict one.
These data were discordant with media reports for 7 of 19 cases on the basis of the strict breed definition and 0 of 18 cases on the basis of the expanded breed definition. ... For multiple dog cases, pedigree documentation, parentage, or DNA information was available for 28 dogs. These data were discordant with media reports for 7 of 28 (25.0%) cases on the basis of the strict breed definition and 0 of 28 (0%) cases on the basis of the expanded breed definition.And this is for the media reports which obviously are less accurate than the animal control reports. Interestingly the study doesn't report the breed of the 45 dogs determined, I wonder why!
Bite risk by breed from the literature review and bite severity by breed ... Injuries from Pitbull's and mixed breed dogs were both more frequent and more severe.The claim implies that breed determination without DNA is possible (or else the whole metastudy is bogus).
Anecdotal/personal
|
---|
** FWIW, as an anecdotal example, my neighbor has a smaller Dogo Argentino mix (it's 65 pounds whereas most Dogo Argentinos are around 100 pounds) and when she adopted him from the shelter, he was labeled as an "American Pit Bull Terrier mix". However, she bought a DNA test at the vet and the results were (if I remember correctly) something like 60% Dogo Argentino, 20% Labrador Retriever, and the balance of his DNA was a mix of several other breeds including Boston Terrier and Swiss Shepherd -- no mention of American Pit Bull Terrier in his DNA. So this is just an example of how dogs with bully-type ancestry and features commonly get misidentified as "pit bulls" just because of their physical characteristics. Also, I thought the dog was more of an American Bulldog mix - but I was wrong as well... and I'm pretty familiar with most of the bully breeds. Michael2468b ( talk) 21:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC) |
"Do not use the talk page as a forum or soapbox for discussing the topic. The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article, not vent your feelings about it."Normal Op ( talk) 22:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
"traditional fighting dog lines had been diluted” to the degree that such dogs were often now found to be ‘near types’ that fell outside the Section 1 classifications."One not-necessarily reliable source cites a weak methodology to claim Labrador retrievers attack the most or rather, that the most frequently owned breed is responsible for the greatest proportion of attacks for which insurance is claimed. (And maybe that Labrador owners are more likely have insurance than are pit bull owners.) GPinkerton ( talk) 23:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
I came across following write up about Mark Durie. Would that be considered reliable source for Criticism of Joe Biden article (I am contemplating for).
https://www.jns.org/opinion/joe-biden-courts-islam-not-muslims/
Bookku ( talk) 12:41, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Ibn Warraq is a notable critic of Islam, and his use at criticism of Islam is probably appropriate. Can he also be used as a WP:RS at other Islam related articles? There is a discussion at Talk:Superstitions_in_Muslim_societies#RfC_Whether_to_allow_Ibn_Warraq_and_Swami_Vivekananda_opinions_in_the_article? on whether he is a reliable source for the claim that the "rituals of the Pilgrimage to Mecca" constitute superstition. The source is Warraq's Why I Am Not a Muslim published by Prometheus Books. Warraq is controversial ( Ibn_Warraq#Reception) and not an academic. VR talk 11:30, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
As related to the request for views on Central Tibetan Administration [13], there are other sources for which guidance is needed. Edits were deleted today on Yarchen Gar [14] with the reason stated as the sources are advocacy groups. The deletion of the sources creates a void in RS regarding the reported cultural genocide in Tibet. Similar deletions of text and sources occur in the 11th Panchen Lama [15] and in Sinicization of Tibet [16] where UNESCO information is characterized as "daft hackery". In Antireligious campaigns in China, sources and text detailing the sequence of events in the persecution of Tibetan Buddhists from 1989-present were threatened with removal [17].
The sources being challenged and deleted include International Campaign for Tibet/ICT, UNESCO, Tibet Post International/The Tibet Post, Tibet Watch, UNPO, Free Tibet, and Radio Free Asia. Verified RS also deleted include BBC UK, and The Statesman.
A list with links to sources' home pages, and to a few citations among others. (The diffs above contain the specific reports used from each source, and can be provided in separate diffs here if needed):
In the pages listed above and in other related pages, may these sources (all, most, exceptions) be used with inline citations? The diffs also illustrate the voids in information if the sources cannot be used in any form. Although these sources are offered together in this discussion, each can be separated into its own discussion/RfC if that's advised.
Hope the request isn't unnecessarily complicated or redundant, but what reports reveal is China's history of censoring information [2] seems to include restricted access inside Tibet [3] [4] and therefore to RS from other sources. Thanks so much! Pasdecomplot ( talk) 13:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
refutesthe facts concerning Chinese colonialism is a day that has not, and will not, dawn. Academics may quibble and disagree, but the facts are unchanged and are very, very far from
refuted. That claim is a bright red soapbox with stars on. GPinkerton ( talk) 00:39, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
plenty of academics refuting such claims, which demonstrates either bad faith or ignorance either of the meaning of the verb "to refute" or of the history of communism with Chinese characteristics. It is not my job to educate others on current affairs, but the incontrovertible fact of genocide in Inner Mongolia is a matter of history, not of dispute. Claims to the contrary are spurious face-saving attempts to rewrite the record. Brown, Kerry (2007-07-01). "The Cultural Revolution in Inner Mongolia 1967–1969: The Purge of the "Heirs of Genghis Khan"". Asian Affairs. 38 (2): 173–187. doi: 10.1080/03068370701349128. ISSN 0306-8374.
The Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region (IMAR), sandwiched between the Mongolian People's Republic and the PRC, was to be one of the worst affected areas of China during the CR [[[Cultural Revolution]]]. While the impact of the CR came slightly late to the area, and extended mainly over the period 1967 to 1969, it was to result in over 22,000 deaths, and 300,000 injuries, according to official statistics. Demographic studies have shown that, based on the almost zero growth rate of the population from 1965 to 1975, the real level of casualties may have reached up to 100,000 deaths. Almost every person of Mongolian ethnicity in the region was affected in some way by the events of the CR. These have a claim to being acts of genocide, and are a wound that lingers to this day.I will not comment on the motives behind the wholly unreasonable suggestion of a block. If others see it as an attempt to silence, that is their own inference. GPinkerton ( talk) 08:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC) [40] This message does show the calibre of the Chinese-controlled media's defensive and embarrassed posturing quite well, and illustrates the usual desire of that side of the argument to resort to personal attacks, being unable to engage meaningfully with the mountain of evidence. In short, a failure to refute evidence implicating the PRC ultimately leads to contentless ad hominems from its apologists. GPinkerton ( talk) 08:42, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
they should not be subject to deletions and additional challenges. Even material from RSes is subject to WP:WEIGHT considerations, since verifiability does not guarantee inclusion.The use of these sources really depends on the context (e.g. which source you are trying to use, whether the topic is controversial, how is it covered in other sources, etc.). These sources are so different that we can’t really make a general statement about them all as a group. — MarkH21 talk 17:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
inline citations needed only for extraordinary reportsanywhere here. Inline citation (required for
any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article spaceby the verifiability policy) is not the same as in-text attribution (required for biased sources by the neutrality policy).Again, these are 8 very different sources that can be used very differently in different contexts. We don't need to find a global consensus on a rule that simultaneously applies to all 8 sources across all articles, besides the existing policies and guidelines (particularly WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS). If you have a content dispute over a particular statement being added to a particular article, then find consensus for that content on the talk page of that article.In general, these policies and guidelines will require you to use any other source that may have clear biases or unclear reliability with care, generally in-text attributed, and usually backed by separate RS coverage. Furthermore, if a source is making a statement that you can't find in any independent reliable source, it's probably not of sufficient due weight to be included in a particular article. — MarkH21 talk 02:11, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
We don't need to find a global consensus on a rule that simultaneously applies to all 8 sources–I suggest this section be closed henceforth. Radio Free Asia, which actually purports to be a news agency, can be the subject of the first separate discussion. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 02:57, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
*The statement about closing was made by @ CaradhrasAiguo:"I suggest this section be closed henceforth." The CON issue between @ GPinkerton & @ MarkH21 makes closing premature. (Posting notice of pings should remove CANVAS concerns (policy understood after pings were posted, have previously and duly clarified the pings and intention, as suggested by policy) ). Let's work towards consensus. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 13:12, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Where statements originating from dissenting organizations conflict with official Chinese claims, and where such statements are reused by go-to reliable sources, I would say they need not be attributed unless extraordinary), not that it may not need inline citations. They’re different things.There’s no CON issue here, because RSN isn’t expected to make blanket judgments for 8 very different sources across all contexts. This is becoming incredibly repetitive. — MarkH21 talk 13:23, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
genocide in Inner Mongolia(when his own source does not state that it definitively is) and accompanying personal attacks of
apologists for the PRC. Time for the block hammer to fall on both of these two. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 13:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
"...over the period 1967 to 1969, it was to result in over 22,000 deaths, and 300,000 injuries, according to official statistics. Demographic studies have shown that, based on the almost zero growth rate of the population from 1965 to 1975, the real level of casualties may have reached up to 100,000 deaths. Almost every person of Mongolian ethnicity in the region was affected in some way by the events of the CR. These have a claim to being acts of genocide, and are a wound that lingers to this day." I will not comment on the motives behind the wholly unreasonable suggestion of a block. If others see it as an attempt to silence, that is their own inference. GPinkerton, where the claim to genocide can also signify a stake. In Tibet, diffs (here/in CTA) state unequivocally that PRC policy is ethnic cleansing.
Given there is recent scholarly opinion (Robert Barnett) under "Debate on the intention of the PRC" refuting the unfounded cultural genocide claims, adding the category Category:Human rights abuses in China is spurious at best...[user] CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 04:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[41]. The link on Barnett leads to,
In 2008, [Barnett] said that it was time for accusations of cultural genocide to be dropped: "I think we have to get over any suggestion that the Chinese are ill-intentioned or trying to wipe out Tibet."[79] Barnett voiced his doubts in a review in the New York Review of Books: "Why, if Tibetan culture within Tibet is being 'fast erased from existence', [do] so many Tibetans within Tibet still appear to have a more vigorous cultural life, with over a hundred literary magazines in Tibetan, than their exile counterparts?"[80].
...but nevertheless it does appear to have happened.is used for a mischaracterization of pinging editors that had recently reached out to be helpful. Likewise, the use of "appear" mischaracterizes the ping to the editor closely involved in RSN, as it was suggested. Canvassing didn't happen; an allegation of CANVAS was already addressed with a ping notice; and it's unnecessary that the mischaracerization was again brought into a RSN thread, now by an involved administrator @ Valereee, since policy recommends such things belong on editor's talk, not in the page's talk, and I would imagine certainly not in RSN discussions.
...with over a hundred literary magazines in Tibetan. Are independent publishing houses in Tibet publishing the literary magazines without oversight or editorial control by the Chinese state controlled media? Given the preponderance of RS on censorship in China, and on the ongoing cultural genocide, Barnett's opinion that the number of literary magazines is evidence there's not a cultural genocide should qualify Barnett as an unreliable academic source. Furthermore, Barnett's opinion comes from a review for NYBook Review - it's not published in a scholarly peer reviewed journal, nor in a book. An opinion written for an unvetted book review by an unreliable academic source does not support claims that scholars have refuted cultural genocide in Tibet. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:27, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
References
The website summarises the voting record of MPs in England and Wales using a transparent process. Would it be reasonable to describe an MP's voting record using material from TheyWorkForYou? E.g. Craig Mackinlay#Parliamentary voting record. 92.40.186.147 ( talk) 14:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
We will have to trust his word on this; tracking every single bit of secondary legislation related to climate change that went through the Commons without a vote since 2015 would be theoretically possible, but immensely time-consuming (and dull). There is also the minor issue of the chamber having no attendance records, so we’d find out what passed, but not who was there when it happened, which would bring us back to square one.
References
While editing several pages concerning Tibet, reincarnated tulkus, Chinese religious persecution in Tibet, and Chinese sinicization policies, the governmental source Central Tibetan Administration has been challenged as being an "avocacy group". I differ, since it's an elected body which represents the exile community, and its press releases [51], statements and reports [52] [53] on Tibet are as valid as reports issued by other state governments regarding their own territories.
The CTA is cited by msm and RS including by the BBC UK [54], reported on by the NYTimes [55] and regularly cited by Indian newspapers, including The Statesman [56] and The Times of India [57] and the Economic Times [58], and the Hindustan Times [59] the Deccan Herald and by other RS internationally. It can be referred to as the "Tibetan government in exile" in sources, but that's not its proper name. Since it's formation in 1959, CTA evolved into a democratically elected body in 2011, as it is today.
For context and during the same time, it's been reporting on the brutal effects of China's policies in Tibet, called a cultural genocide since at least 2008 by observers (including here: "Dalai Lama: 'Cultural genocide' behind self-immolations" [60] ), underscored by the leaked Xinjiang papers that also exposed Chen Quanguo's role in Tibet, which it says shifted to Xinjiang, along with the expansion of Chinese reeducation camps (reported in Tibet in 2009 by ICT, and reporting monks abandonned their monastery to avoid a "reeducation center" [61] while a reeducation camp was identified by HRW as Ningtri in 2017 [62] ). [1] Reports of the Tibetan genocide from common RS are difficult to locate since the access of foreigners is restricted. There hasn't been a leak in Tibet like the Xinjiang papers, making CTA reports more critical for citations. Most readily accessible reports come from sources like Tibet Watch, International Campaign for Tibet (has become increasingly trustworthy) and Free Tibet, some of which also cite CTA.
What are the thoughts here on using and citing Central Tibetan Administration as a reliable source? I am confident in their reports, especially given the precept of not lying [63] which is an integral aspect of Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetans, as well as the CTA. Thanks so much. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 22:05, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Since the CTA represents Tibetans—No, it does not "represent" residents of the Tibet Autonomous Region or Tibetans in the other provinces. You need something such as Gallup polling asking the specific CTA / TGIE question, not your own viewpoints, to demonstrate otherwise.
wouldn't it follow that the CTA's general statements on what Tibetans are experiencing in Tibet would also be usable?—That would be a statement of fact, which other editors have already explained to you is not an admissible use. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 23:20, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
Letting editors know I pinged @ Usedtobecool and @ Adoring nanny before any responses were posted. I later pinged @ Newslinger since the editor's involved with RSN. All were pinged to build CON. Thanks. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 20:41, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
there's CON that CTA can be cited as a governmental source(it's not clear to me what that even means). Every editor here has expressed that a statement by the CTA should generally/preferably only be used if it is mentioned in a secondary RS, and that any such inclusion should be in-text attributed to the CTA. — MarkH21 talk 01:19, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
References
Good evening I was reading something about Military Frontier and stumbled upon wikipedia article and after that upon a Noel Malcolm book about Bosnia [64] also I've noticed that he is quoted a lot here but still has some controversy behind him with his other books [65]. There is probably a discussion about every historian in the world ,but still there is a lot of opposite opinions about him. So is he a RS and why is he so lets say controversial ? Thank you Theonewithreason ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Is Masala! a reliable source for south Asian entertainment news? There is a discussion about this at Talk:Ismail_Hussain_(singer)#Masala. VR talk 20:31, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
I came across this site while reviewing a DYK hook for promotion to the main page. The hook was:
When I looked at the nominated article, Baburao Shedmake, I found that the claim that Shedmake had "won" multiple battles against the British was sourced almost entirely to a website called "Live History India". The website's article on the topic includes a number of colorful claims, including that in his first battle, Shedmake "completely routed the British Army, while inflicting serious losses of men and equipment", that in the second battle, Shedmake's men "pelted stones at the troops, and didn't let up till the troops retreated with heavy losses!" and that in a third battle "the two sides battled it out bitterly, and again, Sedmake and his men emerged victorious". [66]
Now comparing this account to that from a couple of more clearly reliable sources in the article, an Indian government source states that "Two indecisive battles were fought at Saganpur and Bamanpeth in April 1858", [67] and an article on JSTOR from Modern Asian Studies states that the British sent a force of 1700 to put down the rebellion and that "being unaccustomed to operating in such a jungle and mountainous area, the force failed to make any dent on their opponents and were forced to retreat." [68] These accounts hardly accord with that from Live History India.
Taking a closer look at the Live History India website, it describes its "vision" as follows: Through our work and your support, Live History India aims to create a platform to help Indians and India lovers rediscover the many facets of this great country. Revive and bring forth the best works on India and champion all the efforts by individuals, groups, institutions and governments to restore our great legacy. A worthy goal perhaps, but then it does make it sound like an advocacy website.
On its "In the Press" page, there are just six mentions listed, most from around the time the site was getting established, some of which state that numerous unnamed historians were involved with the project. On its "Disclaimer" page however, it says Certain elements of the Site will contain material submitted by users. LHI accepts no responsibility for the content, accuracy, conformity to applicable laws of such material.
Courtesy ping to the creator of the wikipedia article on Shedmake, Shivashree. Gatoclass ( talk) 10:27, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
Reliable source? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 12:02, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
Is Countere.com a reliable source? It doesn't look to be at first glance but first glances can be misleading and I didn't see it in the archives here. A citation was added at Jessica Krug, which is a BLP and a bit of a sensitive topic in general. Want input from the greater community as to whether we should consider this website RS or not. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:43, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
See https://www.mangauk.com/blade-of-the-immortal-interview-with-hiroaki-samura/ The site has been blocked for about seven years but they keep featuring unique interviews for manga authors. Tintor2 ( talk) 11:55, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
LordRogalDorn has been trying to add quotes from the works of two 16th-century historians, Nicolaus Olahus and István Szamosközy in the article about the Origin of the Romanians. Two editors made several attempts to explain him that the two books could not be cited without a reference to a peer-reviewed secondary or tertiary source. He debates our opinion. Do you think we can quote 16th and 17th-century historians' views about the Romanians' ethnogenesis without establishing their relevance with a reference to a peer-reviewed work? Thank you for your comments. Borsoka ( talk) 02:00, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
At Democratic Union Party (Syria) there are two editors who defend the inclusion of several sources that are not on topic and also try to conceal the source Harun Yahya (pen name of Adnan Oktar) as a source for the page, who is a well known Turkish conspiracy theorist. They claim that I remove a phrase about the PKK- PYD- KCK relation by my edit, which I don't.
The involved editors in the dispute are:
The editors who want to keep Harun Yahya (who they disguise as "Bill Rehkopf") and several sources that do not mention the KCK for a phrase mentioning the KCK.
1: Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم
2: Thepharoah17
The editor who wants to remove Harun Yahya and irrelevant sources that do not mention the KCK.
The only admin mentioned in the dispute.
They claim an Admin was involved in the wording of the phrase regarding the relation between the PKK and the PYD and therefore they revert me.
Most of the 9 sources don't even mention the KCK, so they force the inclusion of the sources in dispute by edit war and at are claiming Admin support. I don't remove the phrase. I just spilt and move the phrase according to their relevance and the relevance of the sources. According to the talk page Ibn Amr also agrees on the KCK part, but only on the talk page, his edits are an edit war. It is hard for me to believe that an Admin agreed to the use and concealment of Harun Yahya as a source (I am pretty sure they didn't, they weren't involved anymore, as I pointed out who Harun Yahya/Adnan Oktar is) and the use of other sources that don't even mention the KCK for a phrase that focuses on the KCK. They agreed on the wording, yes. But they can't back it up with multiple high quality sources as demanded from the Admin.
Here the diff for it.
Here is my first improvement of the page from the 1 September 2020 (onwards I only mention the month, the edits are all in 2020)
diff In which I removed some of the sources which didn't mention the KCK and split and moved the phrase in two. The KCK part went to the section Ideology and the other part about the foundation into History. I also clarified the sources like adding the author/publisher of an article to the source. The edit was reverted on the 1 September by Ibn Amr with the edit summary "the sentence you removed is very well sourced (10 or more) and took us (...) weeks to reach consensus on it. See Talk page, use it and seek consensus BEFORE removing this sentence"
I then used the Talk page repeatedly on the 2 and 3 September,
but there where no answers about Harun Yahya by anyone. ThePharoah17 and also Ibn Amr re-included Harun Yahya and the sources not mentioning the KCK. The Harun Yahya source is difficult to find as at first sight, he appears as Bill Rehkopf. In my opinion Harun Yahya is not a good source for a controversial phrase which I also stated at the talk page. Also sources that do not mention the KCK should not be used to source a phrase about the KCK.
Both, the KCK part of the phrase as well as the PYD-PKK connection would still be sourced with 3 sources. But as there is no founder of the PYD mentioned by name in any source but it is claimed that it was the PKK who founded it, as to me it is better to move this to the history part instead of the lead. A source with no name of a founder is no high quality source for a foundation. (Turkish sources would very probably deliver the names of the PKK-members amongst the PYD founders of 2003, but they don't and it would also not be a quality source) Nor is Harun Yahya. After my edit I did on the 16 September
here the diff,
the sources would have been clarified and not just a link as it is currently sometimes the case. The others prefer the current version with the unrelated sources.
For transparency: Before I came here with the dispute, the dispute was discussed at the ANI, but there I was told this is the wrong forum, and to go to another Noticeboard like RSN. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 10:04, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
For sourcing the article " The Pet Goat", do Ledge of Liberty or Google Answers qualify as reliable sources? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 05:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm the other involved party here. Obviously those sources are NOT reliable, nor used in the article. Here is the problem: the story "The Pet Goat" was published in the book Reading Mastery - Level 2 Storybook 1 by Engelmann, Siegfried. There is no disagreement, Fourthords agrees, and many reliable sources confirm it. The question is which edition of the book was it published in for the purpose of adding an entry in the The_Pet_Goat#Editions section. Now this is pretty silly because there is no evidence it was not published in every edition or any edition. Furthermore those links above show dozens of people who all say the same thing. Is there is a mass conspiracy? Fourthords has given no reason not to list any edition of the book in the editions section. The onus is on him to verify that story is in the book, reliable sources say it is and enough metadata is provided to find a copy of the book. -- Green C 13:35, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
VK ( https://vk.com/) is a social media service, popular in the Russian-language community (mostly in Russia itself, I think, but outside of it as well). Although it is not inherently Russian-specific, and there are posts and in English and other non-Russian languages, it is predominantly Russian; it is the Russian equivalent to Facebook. Is it citable as a WP:RS? Does the answer turn on whether the VK poster is believed to be the subject of the article? Or whether the account from which the VK poster posts is a verified account?
Perennial sources says of Facebook: "Facebook is considered generally unreliable because it is a self-published source with no editorial oversight." The same is true of VK, so I would expect that it is not a reliable source (at least with respect to non-verified accounts).
To put some meat on this, the basis for this question is this edit to Alexandra Elbakyan; the particular citation is to what is likely Elbakyan's VK page at [75]. I removed it on the ground that VK is equivalent to Facebook, a documented nonRS; but it was reinstated by the editor with an edit summary that they believe the account to authentically belong to Elbakyan.
I note that VK does have a mechanism to verify that an account belongs to a the user it claims to be (akin to Twitter's (now-suspended) verified account process), which results in the account being marked with a 100%-verified logo (as shown on that VK page). The purported Elbakyan VK page at issue here does not have that logo; it is not a verified account, although realistically, I have no reason to believe it to be an imposter.
My own take is that a posting from a non-verified account fails WP:RS and should not be used; a posting from a verified account could be used, subject to the general guidance at WP:BLPSELFPUB.
I don't see the reliability of VK having been discussed on this noticeboard, and since it's a very popular site in the Russian-speaking community, and the issue is likely to ramifications beyond this article, I thought it would be worth a discussion here rather than just on article's talk page.
It doesn't seem to have much traction as a source on Wikipedia; eyeballing a couple link searches ( [76], [77]) there are only a few hundred links to it. Most are not in article space, and I suspect the majority of the ones that are are in articles are there as ELs rather than as references, for example as at Centr and Bolshoi Theatre. I suspect that's because of a general realization that it's not a RS. TJRC ( talk) 21:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
VK should be blacklisted as it is never useful for any purpose unlike Facebook that is sometimes useful for primary material. 🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 ( talk) 22:14, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
{{
ping|Chess}}
on reply) 00:06, 23 September 2020 (UTC)Generally unreliable, just as Facebook ( RSP entry), LinkedIn ( RSP entry), Quora ( RSP entry), Reddit ( RSP entry), Twitter ( RSP entry), etc. are generally unreliable. VK (VKontakte) is a social network that primarily consists of user-generated content. If a VK account is a verified account or if the VK account owner is verified in some way, then content published on the VK account can be used under the restrictions of WP:ABOUTSELF as if it were published on the account owner's personal website. — Newslinger talk 05:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Can I ask where do we stand on TV.com as a source? Govvy ( talk) 09:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Can anyone verify if filmmusicreporter.com can be used as a reliable source? It looks like back in 2011, there was a short discussion about it on the WP:FILM talk page, and it looked like the two editors who commented came to the conclusion that it was an WP:SPS. It looks like the source is popping up again, specifically at Spontaneous, and a few other upcoming film articles that I can't recall at the moment. BOVINEBOY 2008 09:13, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Should lostarmour.info be blacklisted? 176.88.136.86 ( talk) 08:48, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
The site is a Russian image board that claims to count the number destroyed military equipment in modern conflicts (Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan etc.) by using Twitter images of the purportedly destroyed military equipment (Twitter is a non RS on Wikipedia). I think this source, currently being widely used in modern combat articles should immediately be blacklisted/deprecated due its unreliability. 176.88.136.86 ( talk) 08:48, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Not necessarily blacklisted, but just ignored, that is not used. Simple non-RS issue. Zezen ( talk) 09:39, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Is The New Statesman a generally reliable source? At a glance I can't find any prior discussions on it at RSN, weirdly, yet it's been cited to support other sources' reliability, and we cite it at WP:RSP for issues with the Morning Star. We use this source a lot across articles. It has sometimes been alleged that the paper has a slight left-wing bias, although the question here is is it generally reliable, particularly for statements of fact, as a source, and are there any areas where it is not reliable? Does attribution need to be given when used as a source? ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 21:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Is Geoconservation Research ( http://gcr.khuisf.ac.ir/) a reliable journal? It is run by the Islamic Azad University of Isfahan, and states that its editor in chief is well respected paleontologist Michael J. Benton. Since its founding in 2018, it has published 18 articles, which relate to various issues, mostly geotourism and geoheritage related. The article I wish to cite is Burmese Amber Fossils, Mining, Sales and Profits by respected palaeontologist George Poinar and Sieghard Ellenberger, about Burmese amber. There's a lot of controversy about Burmese amber, which is mined in a conflict zone in northern Kachin State in Myanmar, and whether or not profits from its sale go towards funding conflict, and many of the claims made in the paper are not verifiable from external sources. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 21:26, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
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This is relevant because the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology has proposed a moratorium on publishing for specimens collected after 2017, implying that funding the Tatmadaw is the problem, not the KIA. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 23:09, 24 September 2020 (UTC)Two former mine owners, speaking through an interpreter in phone interviews, say taxes have been even steeper since government troops took control of the area. Both shut their mines when they became unprofitable after the government takeover, and almost all deep mines are now out of business, dealers here corroborate. Only shallow mines and perhaps a few secret operations are still running.
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on reply) 21:20, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Is the National Geographic so reliable that Wikipedia needs to accept elements of an anti-semitic conspiracy theory based on an NG article that iself lacks any reliable sourcing? See the history of Adam Weishaupt and the talkpage section titled " Was Weishaupt Jewish?" for background. -- Hegvald ( talk) 09:25, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
In 2015 Rupert Murdoch bought 73% of The National Geographic Society's assets, including the magazine, books, maps, and all other Media assets. Then 1n March 2019 The Walt Disney Corporation acquired that 73%,
The magazine is now published by "National Geographic Partners" (AKA Disney) instead of of The National Geographic Society, which retains 27% ownership but has no control over content. [94]
Since then the magazine has become an unreliable source. [95] [96] [97] -- Guy Macon ( talk) 12:09, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
I have seen the online article that Vexations ( talk · contribs) mentions above, and it is telling that the NG has already corrected a claim about Mayer Amschel Rothschild that had originally been in the Hernandez article (see box at the bottom of her article). In either case it would appear that the best secondary sources on Weishaupt's origin are most likely to be the two articles by Brökel and Hausfelder that deal specifically with Weishaupt's family and are published in German regional historical periodicals, neither of which, alas, is available to me. Somebody with access to a good German university library could probably find them. (Gerhard Brökel "Adam Weishaupt: der Gründer des Geheimbundes der Illuminaten und seine Vorfahren in Brilon", Jahrbuch Hochsauerlandkreis 2004. Edmund Hausfelder, "Die Familie des Adam Weishaupt und seine Schwiegereltern Sausenhofer", in Sammelblatt des Historischen Vereins Ingolstadt 120 (2011), p. 215-245. Both are mentioned by JevaSinghAnand ( talk · contribs) in a comment from 2015. (Jeva Singh-Anand also appears to have been an authority on the illuminati and a collaborator of Josef Wages, mentioned above by Ian.thomson ( talk · contribs).) -- Hegvald ( talk) 13:22, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
What is the reliability of the HuffPost?
An earlier version of this story incorrectly claimed [...] This was incorrect and was changed within 15 minutes of the story being published.Issuing corrections with such speed is an indicator of reliability, not a strike against it. All publications make similarly mistaken claims from time to time, but it is only the reliable ones which correct them speedily and effectively. — Bilorv ( talk) 21:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
often random trash much as they are on Forbes, as David Gerard said above. XOR'easter ( talk) 04:40, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Generally unreliable for factual reportingbut unfortunately your one stated "factual" objection is just your opinion. — Bilorv ( talk) 21:31, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Any evidence they have recently published outright lies as news, not opinion? Slatersteven ( talk) 09:03, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
I've noticed Douban increasingly being mentioned in Chinese film articles (in particular the article for the science fiction film The Wandering Earth) From what I've read Douban seems to be like IMDB and their scores are WP:USERGENERATED, and so their scores should only be used in exceptional cases, when other publications have decided they might actually be notable.
Has Douban been discussed before? (I considered asking Project Film but they wouldn't necessarily know anything about the reliability of Chinese website, even if they are film website so this seemed like a good place to ask.) It would seem to be an unreliable source. Am I wrong? -- 109.77.196.143 ( talk) 23:50, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
We have around 1,197 citations to Douban per douban.com . Hemiauchenia ( talk) 00:31, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. It will be very helpful to be able to point to this discussion as needed. -- 109.76.210.200 ( talk) 06:15, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
There is recent reporting on RedState having pseudonymous writers who publish misinformation and do not disclose their conflicts of interest. [104] This has implications for the reliability of RedState. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 17:34, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
As an " opinion website" that in my view doesn't distinguish between opinion and other content, RedState shouldn't be used to source facts. starship .paint ( talk) 13:07, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Is this a reliable source? Particularly re: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Early_Years_1965%E2%80%931972&oldid=980575645#cite_ref-Montreux70_6-0 @ Dyolf87:. ― Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 08:13, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm in the process of creating a new article, and I wanted to know if this webpage is reliable [105]. It appears to be a blog that comes from a seemingly trustworthy source. I understand that blogs usually aren't reliable, but this seems to have undergone a fact-checking process. However, I am unsure if the fact-checking process was good enough because the blog does not cite any sources. I am only asking because this website does not appear to have ever been cited on the English Wikipedia. All help will be appreciated. Thanks. Scorpions13256 ( talk) 22:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I have not seen one online article that reveals the true birthdate of actress Minnie Ashley. As a direct descendant that shares the same pedigree (I am the great grandson of Minnie Ashley’s brother) I would like to know how any of the Wikipedia articles about Minnie Ashley can be corrected. My knowledge is first hand and I can prove through various documents that were retrieved from Vital Statistics, Published city street directories and family photos and information in letters written by other members of my family.
See discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Adding IMDb, Rotten Tomatoes, and Metacritic to external links (wherever possible). -- Guy Macon ( talk) 22:59, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
Atlas Obscura is a website dedicated to documenting interesting and obscure places. We currently have 1,500 citations to Atlas Obscura per atlasobscura.com . My main issue with their website is that while it does have a magazine section with articles written by professional writers, these only make up less than half (668) of the citations to the website per atlasobscura.com/articles , the rest are place entires, which are entirely user generated content, which we have 834 citations to per atlasobscura.com/places . Hemiauchenia ( talk) 19:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I removed a claim from the Pretzel article that "Modern scholars identify the pretzel as a symbol of human sacrifice to the Celtic goddess Sirona.[dubious – discuss] The rope of dough with three holes represents a three-part noose, which was used to kill three people by hanging" sourced to this Atlas Obscura article, I was reverted by Spudlace, who claimed that they would "look at it later". The source of the claim in the Atlas Obscura article cites William Woys Weaver, who states
But the meaning of the pretzel hadn’t always been Christian. Food historian William Woys Weaver, who has heavily researched the baked good, says the pretzel’s Christian origins are fabricated. “There is no documentation whatsoever for the invention in 610 of the pretzel by a monk,” he says. The pretzel’s origins actually predate Christianity by hundreds of years. Their twisty shape is a symbol of Sirona, the Gaulish goddess of spring and the sacrificial rites associated with the harvest. While the PFG saw the Holy Trinity in the holes of the pretzel, Weaver says the pretzel’s form is “a votive symbol of a triplicate noose, the type used to hang three people at once, since three deaths were considered more potent than one.”
William Woys Weaver descibes himself as "an independent food historian and author of numerous books, including Culinary Ephemera: An Illustrated History and Sauerkraut Yankees: Pennsylvania Dutch Food and Foodways. He also directs the Keystone Center for the Study of Regional Foods and Food Tourism and maintains the Roughwood Seed Collection for heirloom food plants." I don't think he can be considered a reliable source for these fairly extraordinary claims, and the credulous way they are treated in the article makes me question the reliability of Atlas Obscura's article content. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 23:26, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
[106] being used on George Richard Robinson. Here's the diff. Was I right to revert the change? Are companies at which the individual works reliable sources for information about said individual?
I wrote an article about Honey Badger (men's rights), a word for female men's rights activists, substantial mainstream sources. The term itself was first used on avoiceformen.com/women/to-the-women-that-arent-like-that/#comment-1275480260 which is a page on the blacklist. By definition there is no substitute for the first use of the term. I asked for it to be whitelisted for this specific purpose, and was directed here. -- GRuban ( talk) 12:27, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Also, I have concerns about the sentence in the Honey Badger (men's rights) article that the comment is intended to verify: "The term 'Honey Badgers' was originated in 2012 by Dr. Tara J. Palmatier when an AVfM writer asked women men's rights activists for a 'cool name' to describe themselves." Even if the Disqus comment were verified to have been written by Palmatier, citing the comment by itself would not be enough to show that Palmatier is the originator of the term; the comment would only establish that Palmatier used the term in 2012 in response to the post on A Voice for Men. Without a reliable secondary source referring to either this AVfM post or Palmatier's comment, I don't think this would be due in the Honey Badger (men's rights) article.
From your links, it's clear that news publications have quoted Palmatier, so if any reliable secondary sources have mentioned at least one of the following:
then the requested link is eligible to be cited in the Honey Badger (men's rights) article as a primary source to supplement the secondary source. Alternatively, if a reliable secondary source has described Palmatier as the individual who coined the Honey Badger term, then that source by itself would be sufficient to make the claim in the Honey Badger (men's rights) article without needing the AVfM page. Otherwise, I believe it would be best to exclude this information as undue weight. — Newslinger talk 09:39, 29 September 2020 (UTC)