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I'm a non-participant in ongoing edits/talk. This looks to me to be a POV noticeboard problem so I have posted at POV noticeboard, but might be worth someone looking at the problem from the RS perspective too. In ictu oculi ( talk) 15:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
User:CFredkin claims that Talking Points Memo is not a reliable source for documenting a Senator's vote. [1] [2] The content will be easily sourced from elsewhere, being a US Senator's vote, but I don't like editors attempting to move the Overton Window by making false claims. Please advise. — goethean 16:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Talking Points Memo is certainly reliable in this instance. Two kinds of pork ( talk) 18:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
User:Gamaliel: Can you please weigh in here? Thanks. CFredkin ( talk) 05:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Honestly, I'm not trying to play "gotcha" here. As I indicated below, I'm just looking for a level playing field. Both TPM and Newsmax are edited and POV. It appears that they should both be reliable, or not. CFredkin ( talk) 16:51, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Acupuncture there is an ongoing discussion concerning the sources used to support claims about the effectiveness of acupuncture. This could really use another set of eyes looking at it. --
Guy Macon (
talk) 18:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
After seeing a WP:Edit war between Atotalstranger and NorthBySouthBaranof, evidenced by this, this and this, over whether or not Forbes.com is a WP:Reliable source, I decided to bring the matter here. Notice what NorthBySouthBaranof links to in the first diff-link. I always thought that Forbes.com counted as a WP:Reliable source for celebrity/public figure information; it's certainly widely used on Wikipedia with regard to who is richest and/or most influential, though it's often being used to source itself in such cases. I haven't checked this noticeboard's archives to see if, or how many times, Forbes/Forbes.com has been discussed here, so forgive me if this thread is redundant.
It is also worth noting that Atotalstranger's approach to sourcing is currently being discussed at WP:ANI. Flyer22 ( talk) 00:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
The third reference in the article appears to be a copy of this wiki article.Even the language is exactly the same.Am I correct in my judgement in the fact that this is not a reliable source?The one objection that can be raised against the points I have made is this:It is hosted on the official website of the department of health of the West Bengal government,which oversees the functioning of Medical Colleges(as medical schools are known in India.)
The section I am referrng to is this:
Sagore Dutta Charitable Hospital and Dispensary initially started as a philanthropic organization with an objective of all round health care of the poor peasants and industrial workers of Kamarhati and adjoining areas. Its immense service to fulfill the objectives was recognized when the then Medical Secretary, Dr. Anderson, on his India tour, visited ‘a rural hospital and dispensary situated outside Calcutta, the Sogore Dutt Charitable Hospital and Dispensary’ in January, 1937.The Sagore Dutt Hospital Act, 1958 (Act 14 of 1958) was enforced with effect from the 1st March 1959, vide notification No. Medl./852/14-84/58, dated 30/01/1959, published in the Calcutta Gazette of 1959, Part 1, page 662. The Act provided for the taking over of Sagore Dutt Hospital at Kamarhati in the district of 24 Parganas together with the charitable dispensary attached thereto, by the State Government with a view to the promotion of public health.[3]
Guru-45 ( talk) 17:34, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
There is a RfC regarding the use of the word "Jewish" to describe a conman character in several 1980 Barclay's Bank commercials. There is a heated discussion regarding the sources to support the content.
Discussion at Talk:Peter Sellers#Request for Comment: Use of term "Jewish" to describe conman character. -- Oakshade ( talk) 21:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
I cannot tell if this is an actual media arm of Toonzone or is a wikia. I am trying to determine whether the site is RS or not. - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 02:08, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
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help)</ref>I have added a source ( an Egyptian newspaper on line) to other existing sources. (The article was not modified). The reason is that some Pro Arab readers do not believe that Israel did not planned the war in advance, and would suspect the bias of Israeli / Western history books who claim otherwise. Hence it is better to add a well known Egyptian newspaper (on line, English). Unfortunately, it was deleted since "nor al-Ahram ... are WP:RS sources for history articles" Am I wrong? Ykantor ( talk) 21:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm currently rewriting the Etchmiadzin Cathedral article. Quite a few sources call it the oldest church in the world and that claim is obviously debatable, so I added "often called the oldest church in the world."
Two of the six sources are published by AuthorHouse, which is "a self-publishing company." Since self-published sources are not considered reliable should I keep them? Also, please consider that I used a wording (i.e. "often called") which makes it clear that it is not a fact, but the opinion of some authors anyway, so does it really matter if its self-published or not?
the two sources
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-- Երևանցի talk 01:30, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
I want to write an article on P.K. Mohan also known as Mohanji.
Official website: [www.mohanji.org].
General coverage: [6] [7] [8] [9].
The Power of Purity book: [10] [11].
"Kailash with Mohanji" book release media coverage: [12] [13] [14] [15].
Valedictory address by Mohanji at the The Life Positive Expo - 2012 in Mumbai: [16].
Mohanji's Charity organization Ammucare third party sources coverage: [17] [18] [19] [20].
Mohanji as CEO of a Shipping Company coverage: [21] [22] [23].
Mohanji coverage in Serbian magazines: [24] [25].
Please take your time to check the sources and let me know what you think. Thank you! Zlio2004 ( talk) 13:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Edward Granville Browne spent a year in Persia back in late 19th century during which he did some research on Bábism/ Bahaism as well. In 1915 a Christian Missionary after staying in Persia for some time wrote another book on Bahaism in which he used Browne's findings. The book got a good review from Harvard Divinity School. The question is whether I can use this 1915 book ( reprinted in 1970 By AMS Press Inc.) as a scholarly source for this edit. Thank you.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 18:22, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
User Loki racer added the LinkedIn link to the LokiTorrent page:
LokiTorrent was a BitTorrent indexing service operated by Edward Webber ("Lowkee")
Seems a pretty clear conflict with WP:LINKSTOAVOID, WP:QUESTIONABLE, and WP:SOURCES. It's not even there to back anything up -- just to link Webber's professional profile. Posting to RSN after the link was added for the fourth time. Not sure if this should maybe be over at ANV -- or COIN, based on the fact that the user appears to be the subject of the article.
Diffs:
-- Rhododendrites ( talk) 13:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
A gentleman publishes a recording of himself making a controversial statement and small, biased, news organizations quote him saying it. Could someone please check these sources for being WP:RS? Please do so at Talk:Bryan_Fischer#Please_determine_whether_these_sources_are_WP:RS_for_this_content. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
RWW etc. are reliable only for statements of opinion ascribed as opinion - per the usual caveats about groups with specific strong political objectives. Historically, quotations may be taken "out of context" and thus the fact a person said specific words is not necessarily something usable on Wikipedia unless unrelated reliable sources also make use of them. IIRC, even a major news organisation can err -- vide NBC news on the Zimmerman police call which used his "words" but presented them in a misleading manner. To make claims as "fact" would require better sources less noted for editorializing. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I looked at the video -- and suggest the claims made are taken woefully out of the religious context of the presentation - which is that St. Paul described idols as demons or devils, and that those who worship idols are worshipping demons -- which is not all that odd for a religious speaker. Any more than saying that anyone who has recited the Apostle's Creed is a "creationist". Making an issue of a religious person advancing his own religion is rather non-encyclopedic -- a claim may be "true" but unless an impartial outside reliable source finds it noteworthy, neither will Wikipedia. Collect ( talk) 20:21, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Greetings, I'm looking for consensus on the propriety of using Newsmax as a source at Sean Maloney. Here's the . And here's the source. Thanks. CFredkin ( talk) 21:58, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
User:MilesMoney, User:Thargor Orlando: How is Newsmax different from Talking Points Memo? CFredkin ( talk) 05:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC) (Regardless, this noticeboard is for discussion regarding source reliability, not for the accuracy of a particular statement. In this case, that is indisputable.) CFredkin ( talk) 05:17, 8 November 2013 (UTC) Personally, I'm just looking for a level playing field here. To me, Newsmax and TPM seem pretty comparable. I'm fine with both being reliable, or both being unreliable. CFredkin ( talk) 05:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I fail to see why Newsmax inst a sufficient source for this particular piece of information. WeldNeck ( talk) 14:31, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I already know the answer to this is going to be a resounding no, I think. But while I'm trying to track down a 1912 source that may or may not still physically exist, I'd like to make sure that I'm not being unduly hard on my sourcing expectations:
The cousin Teddy [sic] character represents another common stereotype. He is fastidious and effeminate, has fussy hand movements, belongs to a bible study group and clearly deplores poker. He immediately takes the wife’s side in the situation. Any modern audience would see him as obviously gay.
The site is obviously an independent-citizen movie review site, whose reviewers have no particular film studies qualifications, by their own admission. However, it has considerable longevity and some measure of recognition (Rotten Tomatoes considers it a source of reviews, at least sometimes [27]) and a master's thesis (itself insufficient to be a reliable source) cites it as an example of movie reviews shifting to citizen journalism in the online era. [28] Bleh. Typing that out really makes this look meager, but there we go. Is that enough for this source to be acceptable to bookend the 1912 observation? Squeamish Ossifrage ( talk) 16:58, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Digital Journal is a Canada-based website which describes itself as "a global digital media network with thousands of members and content creators in 200 countries around the world... A media business where everyone can contribute and engage... a platform and a destination where everyone can contribute content and share their unique perspectives on the world and issues of the day" [29] Is it correct to regard this site as a blog, rather than as a regular news source? Under what circumstances, and in what manner, can material be used in articles, if the only source is Digital Journal? Can it ever be used as a reliable source in a biography of a living person? In particular, can it be used as a reliable source for the unattributed assertion that Unite Against Fascism is "believed to be a front group for the far-left extremist Socialist Workers Party,” and that it planned “to counter demonstrate and disrupt rallies in memory of Lee Rigby"? [30] RolandR ( talk) 17:22, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Is Steven Emerson's " Investigative Project on Terrorism" a reliable source for BLP's? Emerson was awarded a Polk Award for his work on terrorism. WeldNeck ( talk) 21:00, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
extended list
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ARTICLE: +972 Magazine NGO Monitor criticized +972 as being antisemitic "because it seeks to strip the Jewish state of its legitimacy" by using the apartheid analogy regarding Israel.[4] [4] NGO Monitor slams funding of ‘+972’ blog ( http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=255167)
NGO Monitor said that B'tselem distorts its data and uses "abusive and demonizing rhetoric designed to elicit political support for Palestinians".[56] [56] ^ Betselem: Report Uses Outdated Sources and the Rhetoric of Demonization ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/editions/v2n12/v2n12-4.htm) , NGO Monitor Analysis (Vol. 2 No. 12), 15 August 2004. ARTICLE: Yesh Din NGO monitor has been critical of Yesh Din's activities.[8] [8] ^ "NGO Monitor slams Belgium funds for ‘anti-Israel’ group" ( http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=233680) . The Jerusalem Post. 14 August 2011.
Gerald Steinberg, of NGO Monitor, said that the report was tied to the recent Palestinian hunger strikes and that AI “jumped on the bandwagon to help their Palestinian allies.”[24] Steinberg also pointed out that one of the researchers, Deborah Hyams was not a neutral party, saying that “Hyams has volunteered as a ‘human shield’ in Beit Jala (near Bethlehem) to deter Israeli military responses to gunfire and mortars targeting Jewish civilians in Jerusalem,” and that “in 2008 she signed a letter claiming Israel is 'a state founded on terrorism, massacres and the dispossession of another people from their land.'[25] {24] ^ 'Amnesty administrative detention report PR gimmick' ( http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=272985) [25] ^ 'Amnesty report against Israel written by pro-Palestinian activists' ( http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=4584)
ARTICLE: The Electronic Intifada Gerald M. Steinberg, head of the pro-Israel NGO Monitor, described Electronic Intifada as "an explicitly pro-Palestinian political and ideological Web site".[7] that hosts "anti-Israel propaganda."[8] [7] ^ "Human Rights Watch needs watching" ( http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=4055&print=yes) , Gerald M. Steinberg, The Jewish Week, March 25, 2005 [8] ^ "Ken Roth's blood libel ( http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525949034 &pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull) , Jerusalem Post, August 26, 20067.
FIDH's mandate “is to contribute to the respect of all the rights defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.” It aims to make “effective improvements in the protection of victims, the prevention of Human Rights violations and the sanction of their perpetrators.”[1] [1] ^ http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/international_federation_of_human_rights_fidh_paris_ Q: Why is the FIDH mandate attributed to an NGO Monitor site ?? FIDH’s finances lack transparency, as funding sources are not itemized on its website or in financial statements, and no response was received to letters requesting this information. Instead, FIDH lists general figures and provides a financial summary: “FIDH relies heavily on donations from the public and from private businesses, contributions from its member organizations and on the commitment of its voluntary workers. It also receives grants from international and national bodies, and from foundations...”[3] 3. ^ Report "FIDH: Prioritizing Politics over Protection" ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/article/fidh_prioritizing_politics_over_protection) , NGO Monitor, 2006
Machover represents the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, a Gaza-based NGO, which, according to Anne Herzberg, legal adviser to NGO Monitor, is "leading the lawfare strategy."[4] 4. ^ Lawfare Against Israel ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122583394143998285.html )
ARTICLE: Anne Bayefsky She has also argued that Human Rights Watch "fanned the flames of racial intolerance" in the lead-up to the Durban Conference by facilitating the exclusion of Jewish representatives from an NGO caucus, later covering up its role in the affair and misrepresenting the outcome to the media.[9] 9. ^ "Human Rights Watch Coverup" ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=908) . Ngo-monitor.org. External Links Human Rights Watch Coverup ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=908)
Gerald M. Steinberg, in an op-ed in the Ottawa Citizen, wrote that while HRW had promised an investigation, it has not offered any information about it to the public, or addressed the issue of the credibility of Garlasco's reports on Israeli human rights violations.[42] 42. ^ Ottawa Citizen The sad state of 'human rights' organizations, ( http://www.ottawacitizen.com/story_print.html?id=2679204&sponsor=) , Gerald Steinberg, March 14, 2010
[4] Gerald M. Steinberg (11 March 2006). "Challenging the NGO mythology - HaMoked and B'Tselem have been accused of besmirching the state and its security forces". The Jerusalem Post.
31. ^ 'Peace mustn't become ‘orphan’ of Arab Spring' ( http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx? id=276734) 32. ^ EU ends funding for ICAHD ( http://www.jewishtribune.ca/uncategorized/2008/09/16/eu-ends-funding-foricahd)
In addition, Daniel Fink, writing on behalf of NGO Monitor, shows that Ateek has described Zionism as a “step backward in the development of Judaism,” and Zionists as “oppressors and war makers.”[25] 25. ^ Sabeel’s ‘Peace’ façade ( http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3464067,00.html)
Kenneth Roth has been criticized by the Jerusalem-based NGO Monitor for allegedly being biased against Israel. Gerald M. Steinberg has been a long-time critic of Roth's role as head of Human Rights Watch from 1993. Writing in a 2004 Jerusalem Post article[28] 28. ^ "Israelis Have No 'Human Rights'" ( http://www-ngo monitor.org/article/_israelis_have_no_human_rights_ ) By Gerald M. Steinberg, March 08, 2004, The Jerusalem Post
Gerald Steinberg, president of NGO Monitor, said, "If, as in 2001, the same NGOs are provided a platform in New York at 'Durban III', this will set the stage for another round of activities that exploit and undermine the moral and human rights agenda."[46] 46. ^ Concerns growing over NGO participation in Durban III ( http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=226320&R=R1)
104. ^ Balanson, Naftali (2010-11). "Moral Argument Against BDS" ( http://zeek.forward.com/articles/117084/) . ZEEK (The Jewish Daily Forward). Retrieved 6 March 2011. In an op-ed published in The Jerusalem Post in November 2010, Gerald Steinberg and Jason Edelstein contend that while "the need to refute their [BDS organizations] allegations is clear, students and community groups must also adopt a proactive strategy to undermine the credibility and influence of these groups. This strategy will marginalize many of the BDS movement's central actors, and expose the lie that BDS is a grassroots protest against Israeli policy. Exposing their abuses and funding sources, and forcing their campaign leaders and participants to respond to us will change the dynamic in this battle."[105] 105. ^ By G. Steinberg and J. Edelstein (6 November 2010). "Turning the tables on BDS," ( http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=194275) . Jpost.com. Retrieved 13 December 2010.
Center for Constitutional Rights[3] [3] ^ NGO Monitor ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/center_for_constitutional_rights) Q: (why is NGO Monitor used as a source ?)
ARTICLE: War on Want NGO Monitor's Dan Kosky wrote that due to War on Want's support of an Israel boycott and its stand against the British presence in Iraq, a thorough review of the organization should be conducted by the UK regarding funding, for "if not, the United Kingdom could find itself aiding an Israel boycott campaign."[18] 18. ^ Where War on Want is itself found wanting ( http://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/where-war-wantitself-found-wanting )
43. ^ a b Lori Lowenthal Marcus (30 March 2013). "Penn Hillel Provided Platform to Venomous ‘Breaking The Silence’" ( http://www.jewishpress.com/news/penn-hillel-provided-platform-to-venomous-breaking-thesilence/).
According to Gerald Steinberg, the attempt to label Israel an apartheid state is "the embodiment of the new antisemitism that seeks to deny the Jewish people the right of equality and self-determination.".[128] 128. ^ a b Steinberg, Gerald M. (28 August 2004). "The Apartheid Propaganda" ( http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48909392.html) . Aish.com. Retrieved 2010-07-22. Amnesty International (AI) has been accused by the American Jewish Congress and NGO Monitor of having a double standard when it comes to its assessment of Israel. [197] 197. ^ Getting human rights wrong ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/article/getting_human_rights_wrong)
Although Adalah-NY is not financially transparent,[2] [2] ^ a b c "Adalah-NY" ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/adalah_ny). NGO Monitor.
According to Anne Herzberg, legal adviser to NGO Monitor, PCHR is "leading the lawfare strategy."[12] 12. ^ Lawfare Against Israel ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122583394143998285.html) External Links NGO Monitor Lawfare Monograph ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/data/images/File/lawfaremonograph.pdf)
ARTICLE: World Conference Against Racism 2001 Critics described the description of Israel as apartheid as the "Durban Strategy". They claim that this comparison was made with the intention of causing and encouraging divestment from and boycott of Israel.[16] 16. ^ Steinberg, Gerald (15 June 2006). "Anti-Israel obsessions" ( http://www.jewishtoronto.net/content_display.html?ArticleID=185328) . Canadian Jewish News (United Jewish Communities) Analysis and greater detail Steinberg (Summer 2006). "The Centrality of NGOs in The Durban Strategy" ( http://www.yaleisraeljournal.com/summ2006/steinberg.pdf) (PDF). Yale Israel Journal (Yale College undergraduates) 9. — an analysis of the NGO Forum by the Executive Director of NGO Monitor Gerald M. Steinberg (10 August 2005). "ACADEMIC FREEDOM AND THE AUT BOYCOTT CAMPAIGN: EXAMINING THE LESSONS" ( http://www.biu.ac.il/rector/academic_freedom/files/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20Steinberg- %20boycott%20jcpa%20draft.pdf) (PDF). Conference of the National Postgraduate Committee, UK , Glasgow. 2005-08-12. p. 8.
The European Union has been criticized for funding Israeli-based political Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) that attempt to undermine Israeli policies and preach "division and confrontation".[20] NGO Monitor claims they have identified over 48 million dollars that have been allocated to Israeli and Palestinian NGOs by the European Commission.[21] As a response, the Israeli Knesset attempted to pass two bills that would limit the amount that a foreign government or organization could gift. However, these two bills were never passed into law.[22] 20. ^ Funding Israel's Detractors. Wall Street Journal ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121003096750769111.html) 21. ^ throws out NGO funding case brought by Israel-based watchdog. Times of Israel ( http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-court-throws-out-ngo-funding-case-brought-by-israel-basedwatchdog/EUcourt) 22. ^ Factious funding. Jpost. 2011. ( http://www.jpost.com/JerusalemReport/Israel/Article.aspx?id=247585)
According to NGO Monitor, "much of the substance of these tours and programs is provided by officials from radical anti-Israel NGOs".[4] [4] ^ "NGOs and Birthright Unplugged: Plugging into anti-Israel campaigning" ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/article/ngos_and_birthright_unplugged_plugging_into_anti_israel_campaigning) ARTICLE: Christine Chanet In the view of NGO Monitor, “Chanet has formed pre-existing prejudicial opinions on areas directly covered by the Mission mandate.” (NO REF)
Other sources assert that B'tselem's definition of a civilian is too broad and includes Palestinians killed while attacking Israelis.[7] 7. ^ Betselem: Report Uses Outdated Sources and the Rhetoric of Demonization ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/editions/v2n12/v2n12-4.htm) NGO Monitor Analysis (Vol. 2 No. 12), 15 August 2004.
External Link Durban Conference 2009 ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/durban_conference_0) at NGO Monitor
Daniel Fink, writing on behalf of NGO Monitor, shows that Sabeel leader Naim Ateek has described Zionism as a “step backward in the development of Judaism,” and Zionists as “oppressors and war makers.”[39][40] 39. ^ Sabeel’s ‘Peace’ façade ( http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3464067,00.html) 40. ^ Updating the Ancient Infrastructure of Christian Contempt: Sabeel Footnotes 36-47 ( http://jcpa.org/article/updating-the-ancient-infrastructure-of-christian-contempt-sabeel/) 44. ^ ngo-monitor.org ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/holy_land_christian_ecumenical_foundation_hcef_)
NGO Monitor said that ISM "has a long record of encouraging activists to take ‘direct action’ that often places them in danger and in direct confrontations with the IDF."[59][60][61] Q: (None are references to NGO Monitor)
ARTICLE: Foreign and Commonwealth Office In 2012, the Foreign Office was criticised by Gerald Steinberg, of the Jerusalem-based research institute, NGO Monitor, saying that the Foreign Office and the Department for International Development to Palestinian NGOs provided more than £500,000 in funding to Palestinian NGOs which he says "promote political attacks on Israel." In response, a spokesman for the Foreign Office said, “we are very careful about who and what we fund. The objective of our funding is to support efforts to achieve a two-state solution. Funding a particular project for a limited period of time does not mean that we endorse every single action or public comment made by an NGO or by its employees.”[12] 12. ^ ‘Investigate UK funding of Palestinian NGOs' ( http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/82746/investigate-ukfunding-palestinian-ngos%E2%80%99)
ARTICLE: Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center It has also been accused of using antisemitic rhetoric.[4] [4] Gerald M. Steinberg. Cut the cash, end the hostility ( http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? External Links NGO Monitor study ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/v3n11/SabeelsEcumenicalFacade.htm)
ARTICLE: Criticism of Amnesty International Gerald Steinberg, of NGO Monitor, said that the report was tied to the recent Palestinian hunger strikes and that AI “jumped on the bandwagon to help their Palestinian allies.”[24] Steinberg also pointed out that one of the researchers, Deborah Hyams was not a neutral party, saying that “Hyams has volunteered as a ‘human shield’ in Beit Jala (near Bethlehem) to deter Israeli military responses to gunfire and mortars targeting Jewish civilians in Jerusalem,” and that “in 2008 she signed a letter claiming Israel is 'a state founded on terrorism, massacres and the dispossession of another people from their land.'[25] 24. ^ 'Amnesty administrative detention report PR gimmick' ( http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=272985) 25. ^ 'Amnesty report against Israel written by pro-Palestinian activists' ( http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=4584)
In July 2013, j. published an article about a report on JVP from NGO Monitor. The article noted that NGO Monitor's report "concludes that JVP has 'actively promoted the central dimensions of the political warfare strategy against Israel.'” The article quoted Yitzhak Santis, chief programs officer at NGO Monitor, as saying "the organization supports or has partnered with groups such as Sabeel, Electronic Intifada, Al-Awda, International ANSWER Coalition, the International Solidarity Movement and Students for Justice in Palestine, all of which label Israel a racist apartheid state, support BDS and, in some cases, support violence against Israelis." [33] [33] ^ BDS backer bumped from Heroes contest ( http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/10/10/3089794/bds-leaderbumped-from-federation-heroes-contest)
On 7 September 2010, it was announced that George Soros planned to donate 100 million US dollars to Human Rights Watch.[7] Soros's donation was criticized by Gerald Steinberg, the founder of the pro-Israel research organization NGO Monitor.[8] Political Science Professor and former consultant to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs Gerald M. Steinberg of Bar Ilan University, head of NGO Monitor, a pro-Israel NGO[32] accused HRW of having "a strong anti-Israel bias from the beginning".[33] He claimed their reports were based primarily on "Palestinian eyewitness testimony" — testimony that is "not accurate, objective or credible but serves the political goal of indicting Israel".[34] 8. ^ Steinberg, Gerald (2010-09-12). "Selling Out to Soros by Prof. Gerald Steinberg" ( http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/selling_out_to_soros_iYfn7YXaZg8xEFCp5iEcCJ) . Nypost.com. Retrieved 2013-01-28. 33. ^ Gerald M. Steinberg, Jerusalem Post, 25 January 2009, For HRW, Israel is always guilty ( http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1232643745914) 34. ^ Steinberg, Gerald (2009-09-03). "Op-Ed: Who are Israel’s accusers? | JTA - Jewish & Israel News" ( http://jta.org/news/article/2009/09/03/1007523/op-ed-who-are-israels-accusers) . JTA. Retrieved 2013-01-28. Links: NGO Monitor: HRW in 2011 - More Balance, Less Credibility ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/article/hrw_in_more_balance_less_credibility)
NGO Monitor criticized PYALARA's publishing of two articles for children which glorified Palestinian terrorism. One was about Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine leader Abu Ali Mustafa, calling him "a political leader ... whose history prides his nationalistic activism," without mentioning anything of his activities in planning and carrying out terrorist acts. The other article, referred to suicide bombers as "young Palestinians who have willingly sacrificed their lives in the name of their homeland." In addition, NGO Monitor criticized PYALARA for using funds “donated explicitly for non-political and non-violent projects in order to promote blatantly political objectives, including the indirect support for terror attacks on civilians."[1] 1. ^ Palestinian Poster Calling for Israel Boycott Includes Logo of U.N. Agency ( http://cnsnews.com/news/article/palestinian-poster-calling-israel-boycott-includes-logo-un-agency) External links NGO Monitor article ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/v1n05/v1n05-1.htm) Retrieved
The term "halo effect" has been applied to human rights organizations that have used their status to move away from their stated goals. Political scientist Gerald Steinberg has claimed that non-governmental organizations (NGOs) take advantage of the "halo effect" and are "given the status of impartial moral watchdogs" by governments and the media.[14][15] 14 Jeffray, Nathan (24 June 2010). "Interview: Gerald Steinberg". The Jewish Chronicle. 15 Balanson, Naftali (8 October 2008). "The 'halo effect' shields NGOs from media scrutiny". The Jerusalem Post. Further reading: Steinberg, Gerald M (30 December 2009). "Human Rights NGOs Need a Monitor". The Jewish Daily Forward.
Opponents of the analogy claim it is intended to delegitimize Israel.[13] 13. ^ a b The Apartheid Propaganda ( http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48909392.html) Gerald M. Steinberg In an op-ed for the Jerusalem Post, Gerald Steinberg, Professor of Political Studies at Bar Ilan University, argued that "Ethno-national disputes, occupation, and charges of discrimination against minorities are also part of the conflicts in Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Kosovo and Bosnia, Sri Lanka, India/Pakistan, etc., but the demonization campaign is unique to Israel. ... Indeed, the racism and denial of legitimacy characteristic of apartheid are actually applicable to Arab and Islamic rejection of Jewish rights . ... By screaming 'apartheid' at every opportunity, the leaders of this campaign have succeeded in burying data showing that [the security] barrier has saved the lives of many Israelis. In today's immoral political doublespeak, protecting Israelis from terror has become 'apartheid."[261] 261. ^ Steinberg, Gerald M. Abusing 'Apartheid' for the Palestinian Cause ( http://spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=271) , Jerusalem Post, 24 August 2004. |
רסטיניאק ( talk) 12:34, 9 November 2013 (UTC)רסטיניאק
This column would appear to be a sensationalist treatment of celebrity deaths. How reliable is it in terms of categorizing the deaths as "unusual", thus supporting this edit to List of unusual deaths? Given that it includes such mundane instances as falling off a roof, hanging oneself with a belt, a ruptured appendix, and falling when a safety harness broke, I would have to say that the inclusion in the list was based on the fame of the deceased more than any actual determination that the deaths were "unusual".— Kww( talk) 00:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
We haven't had one external comment yet at my post above in case anyone has a moment! We did an RFC earlier which is linked in that post if anyone's curious. - Darouet ( talk) 16:36, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
We have a source dispute on the page for the Ghouta chemical attack, which occurred early in the morning on 21 August 2013. Content added here using this article from the New Scientist argues, quoting Richard Guthrie, that the night of the chemical attacks was the one night that week in which wind blew east: away from government soldiers, and towards rebels.
The statement hasn't been reported elsewhere, so far as we can find, and it's not clear how reliable or what kind of a news source the "New Scientist" is. Because I study climate, perhaps, I was a little skeptical of the claim: at a given site and time period, you'll usually see one or two dominant wind patterns, and see that change with seasons. So after editors began arguing about the veracity of the statement, I went to the NOAA, which has the largest available database on this and is regularly used for research or practical purposes globally. According to the site, wind did blow ENE on the night of the Ghouta attacks. However, and you can check this yourselves, wind also blew that direction every day of that week, and of that month. It turns out that the average wind direction at the site over the last 5 years is 245, or ENE.
All Syria civil war related articles are under sanctions because the issue is politically charged. I have the impression that efforts to retain the statement using the New Scientist source, invoking WP:V and WP:RS, amount to WP:GAMING because retaining the information seems to violate WP:COMMONSENSE. Input would be appreciated. - Darouet ( talk) 19:32, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I added content about two Human coronaviruses as the source of the common cold to the Common cold article. I cited a study from the Journal of Virology that mentions this fact and cites two articles as the source. The J.Virol. article is about dentritic cells in HCoV infection and not about the epidemiological study it mentions that says HCoV's cause 30% of common colds.
Specifically, it says, “Epidemiological studies suggest that HCoVs account for 15 to 30% of common colds, with only occasional spreading to the lower respiratory tract. Airway epithelial cells represent the primary target of infection.” The authors then cite an article from the Archives of Pediatrics, and Journal of Hospital Infection which report on two studies in neonatal intensive care units regarding the transmission of these human coronaviruses. Here’s a link to the full article that mentions this: http://jvi.asm.org/content/86/14/7577.long
I added this to the Common cold article: [31]. But Doc James reverted claiming that it is based on primary sources and can't be used. [32]. The fact that two human coronaviruses OC43 and 229E are among the many viruses that cause the common cold is well documented in the literature to the point of common knowledge. This fact is often mentioned as background information in journal articles reporting studies on the HCoV's. It seems perfectly reasonable to use this source for the edits. Malke 2010 ( talk) 13:34, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
User:LudicrousTripe is deleting material sourced to Pawns of War and Sideshow and replacing it with a supposed quotation from a primary source mentioned in Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent (a work only tangentially related to the article). While Chomsky's opinions on some topics may be notable, my understanding is that as a linguist and polemicist he lacks historical training and therefore shouldn't be used to establish historical facts over academic historians. However, LudicrousTripe assures me that Chomsky is a reliable source for factual claims and insists that my only motive for disagreement must be a personal dislike of Chomsky. Should Chomsky be used to establish the authenticity and historical significance of this quote, and should it replace Pawns of War and Sideshow? TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 17:36, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Your tone is, as usual, it seems, judging by your talk page, unnecessarily combative. Quite disappointing, as it makes any interaction with you extremely unpleasant. Anyway, let's get this over with.
There are few points I want to make.
1) It was not I who wanted to replace the stuff; it was Balgill1000. My reversion was admittedly trying to cement that replacement, which brings me to my next point.
2) Despite appearances, I do not want to "replace" anything; it appeared to me from your reversion of this Balgill1000 person, and its edit summary, that you had tried to replace Chomsky–Herman with other stuff on the basis that you did not think C–E are RS. I say "appeared" because I've just checked Balgill1000's original edit and it was he/she who had wanted to use C–E as a replacement. Your edit summary led me to my bad conclusion, though I do not seek to put the blame on your for my mistake. My errors are my own. Anyway, just a simple mistake on my part that I wanted to clarify. I am strongly in favour of not replacing/deleting alternative views, even ones I don't like; Wikipedia should be a place were all views are aired and the reader can come to their own conclusion.
3) I did not "insist" that your motive for disagreement "must" be a personal dislike of C–E; it was a potential conclusion to be based on a simple point of logic. Let me explain things: I made a conditional statement: if you couldn't point me to where C–E have been ruled out as RS on topics that are to do with US foreign policy, then I could assume that it was nothing more than WP:IDON'TLIKEIT. After all, if you have no objective basis that rules them out as RS to which you can point me, the only possible conclusion is that you have a merely subjective basis for not regarding them as RS. Just a simple point of logic. The mere existence of this discussion on this noticeboard tells me there is no Wikipedia policy or whatever that excludes C–E as RS, hence my suspicion about a lurking WP:IDON'TLIKEIT appears to have been validated.
To be honest with the admins or whoever deals with this noticeboard, dealing with this clearly and deeply unhappy individual is just so unenjoyable, I am minded to let him just get on and do what he wants with the article. Actually, I'm not minded, I am certain: just let him get on with it. I am not going to make any further posts here. Thank you. LudicrousTripe ( talk) 18:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
It's worth pointing out that academics like Chomsky often provide sources in their books. In this case, even without access to the book, the provision of a quote allows me to find this, which says the relevant quote was sourced by Chomsky/Herman to a US Senate hearing. (This is slightly unsatisfactory as the quote doesn't seem to have been given to the hearing, so was likely cited by someone in it... but still.) Podiaebba ( talk) 23:35, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
TheTimesTheyAreAChanging, if you had a copy of Clymer's book, which confirms the facts reported by Chomsky, and brought this report to challenge those facts, that is very disruptive. You should have said Chomsky correctly said that Sihanouk complained about the bombings and held a press conference rather than misleading us by claiming those facts were false.
The disputed text per your link, is "On 26 March 1969, one week after the bombings began, the Cambodian government publicly condemned the almost daily bombing by U.S. aircraft, alleging that these attacks were directed against peaceful Cambodian farmers and demanding that these criminal attacks be stopped immediately and indefinitely. Prince Sihanouk called a press conference two days later on March 28 in which he emphatically denied denied reports circulating in the United States that he would "not oppose U.S. bombings of communist targets within my frontiers." Your reference to "cherry-picking" btw is misleading and offensive. The issue was merely whether the facts reported were true, and Clymer confirmed them.
BTW, I never claimed to be an expert, I am merely replying to the a thread discussing reliable sources, the criteria for which does not change depending on the subject. As for Kiernan, I never check the backgrounds of scholars, because it is absolutely irrelevant to the factually accuracy of their writings. His article is reliable because it appear in Routledge's Century of Genocide, which is now in its third edition. That the editors, Samuel Totten and William S. Parsons chose indicates that it for the section on Cambodia shows that it is reliable. I notice you have no problem in accepting The History of the Vietnamese Economy (2005), published by the Institute of Economics of the Vietnam Academy of Social Sciences, which is a division of the Communist government of Vietnam. [39] It seems to me that you apply standards against writers when you disagree with he facts they report and in this case you made no effort to determine if the facts you were challenging were true.
TFD ( talk) 21:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Is rockforlife.org reliable for this edit? Two kinds of pork ( talk) 03:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Is Robert Parry's self-published, donation financed "Consortium News" website (with all of the relevant articles written by Parry himself) a reliable source for historical facts? The site is barely above the level of a blog, although Parry's past work as a journalist may give him some credibility (along with a strong conflict of interest). At the moment, "Consortium News" (and an editorial from the far-left advocacy group FAIR, also by Parry) are the primary sources used in October Surprise conspiracy theory. I'm hardly surprised that the article has been written entirely by editors who take everything Parry says extremely seriously; the resulting lack of neutrality is merely the collateral damage that comes inherent with a project like Wikipedia. No doubt the page requires mass deletions of unsourced content ("Bush provided several alibis that fell apart," with no source, when Secret Service logs show Bush engaged in a large number of appearances in the United States), as well as removal of useless external links like Rumor Mill News, and it should probably portray the delusional con man Ari Ben Menashe (whose inglorious career includes serving as chief witness in Robert Mugabe's farcical treason trial of the leader of the chief opposition party in Zimbabwe) in a less glowing light. But even granting that perhaps fringe theories are most written about by fringe theorists, is "Consortium News" a suitable source for Wikipedia at all? Keep in mind that Parry claims to have found a "Russian X-file" proving the October Surprise after he snuck into "a remote storage room on Capitol Hill," and that this is typical of his style. ( Here he talks about how he found Carter's "green-light" allowing Saddam to invade Iran, "which apparently had been left behind by accident in a remote Capitol Hill storage room". Certainly, none of his "well-placed official[s]" are sources we can check.) Also consider that "Consortium News" is often the sole source used to ascribe factual statements to important political figures, for example Yitzhak Shamir. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 15:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
After a brief review, there are several high quality sources on this subject.
Even if a case could be made that Robert Parry is a RS, his website isnt and the way the article looks now, Parry is responsible for the majority of the content which would seem to violate WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. WeldNeck ( talk) 14:48, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
On quick example of the issues with Parry's work. The following is directly from the article and sourced to Parry: "David Andelman, the official biographer of French spy chief Alexandre de Marenches, testified to the House investigation that de Marenches had told him that he had organised the Paris meeting.[19]". I can find no mention anywhere else outside of Parry or individuals who use Parry as a source that David Andelman testified to the House investigation or that deMarenches claimed to organize a meeting in Paris. If anyone has a copy or can obtain a copy of Andelman's The Fourth World War: Diplomacy and Espionage in the Age of Terrorism this could be positively verified but I wouldnt count on it. WeldNeck ( talk) 15:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
NB In case anyone cares, some of the consortiumnews articles were republished by truthout. [45]. Podiaebba ( talk) 02:19, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Some of Parry's criticisms of the report were published in January 1993 in The Nation. [47] Does that help any? I have no problem with avoiding use of consortiumnews when the same thing is published in a source others consider better. Podiaebba ( talk) 20:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Not to beat up on Podiaebba, who obviously has very strong feelings in favor of Robert Parry's professionalism and credibility, but he has tried to shoehorn Consortiumnews onto the Ghouta chemical attack page, with similar responses: Noticeboard and Talk as examples. Regardless of Parry's "amazing track record", the fact that his website is self-published and other red flags like it lending credence to fringe personalities and conspiracy theories really should be weighed when we're looking at whether to include it. I just don't think it rises to the level of a reliable source. - Kudzu1 ( talk) 05:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'm not sure everyone here was aware that Robert Parry was awarded a Polk Award for his reporting on Iran-Contra - a matter highly intertwined with October Surprise. One might think that this would be relevant for judging whether he's a reliable source on the subject. Podiaebba ( talk) 16:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Some editors are trying to remove mention of, and/or categories about, Rothbard as an historian [added later to clarify: or "economic historian" depending on source; he wrote both] despite the following sources from talk page mostly in format as others presented it; duplicates integrated where possible. (Pardon length: The talk page "Not a historian" section discussion is too long to ask you all to read through it.) Three editors keep arguing against these sources for reasons they can explain.
This sort of petty arguing about labels is one of the more pointless things Wikipedians do... but anyway, Rothbard seems to be a social scientist in a wide sense, active in a number of fields, including history, and on the basis of that plenty of good sources include "historian" in a list of things he is. It seems a bit absurd to crusade against that label as if using it had some major significance. It's a descriptive label with a fairly elastic meaning, not a stamp of approval or an academic degree! Podiaebba ( talk) 01:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi all, is Reddit is a reliable source? Specifically their AMA or ask me anything ? I ask because a Reddit AMA has been cited, twice, as a source at the Captain Phillips (film) article. The AMA is an online, interactive Q&A with, in one case, Hollywood director Paul Greengrass. However, the only 'proof' that it is supposedly him, is a picture of him sitting in front of a computer, on a third party image hosting site. Does anyone know more about this, and whether we accept this as an acceptable reference? Thanks - thewolfchild 02:34, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I would like to get the community's opinion on whether timeanddate.com can be considered a reliable source. Another user expressed their interest in using it to source various time zone statements in the articles, but I am not convinced this site qualifies (even though the information it contains is most likely to be accurate).
As per WP:RS, a reliable source is one that qualifies as a "third-party, published source[] with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Timeanddate.com is published by what looks like a private company whose only claim to fame is running this website, it does not say where the data come from, gives only vague assurances that its "employees are experienced and trained in their fields", and its list of accolades includes praises about the site's usability, features, and breadth of coverage but not on its accuracy. There is no "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" to speak of, and that's the most important aspect of a source that can be considered reliable.
An outside opinion on this would be much appreciated.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); November 15, 2013; 14:59 (UTC)
I am the other user that Ezhiki refers to above. Time and Date appears a reliable source to me, and it is mentioned in various sources. However, my query was a wider one, relating to the availability of English-language time zone sources in general, so it would be useful to have views on other such sites as well e.g. [53] [54] [55] [56], or indeed any other potentially reliable time zone sites you are aware of. Eldumpo ( talk) 16:16, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I am wondering if Vulture.com is a reliable source. I am not familiar with the source, and I immediately believe the source is questionable at best. The source is this one, and was added by an IP editor here. From regular news sources, I am not seeing anything about status downgrading of the injury from a stab to a severe scratch as the vulture source claims:
A Comic-Con attendee stabbed another near the eye with a pen Saturday after they got into an argument over whether one was sitting too close to the other, police said.
A stabbing Saturday night in a packed auditorium at the Comic-Con International pop culture convention temporarily brought the presentation of some of the most highly anticipated films to a halt.
A stabbing occurred today at Comic-Con in Hall H, the largest auditorium in the San Diego Convention Center.
-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 16:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Is Japanator.com reliable for manga and anime reviews?
I'm drawing from an archived project discussion.
Japanator has been interviewed by Anime3000 and Anime News Network's ANN Cast. Extremepro ( talk) 12:16, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I would appreciate comment on whether my view or Astynax's is the more correct interpretation of Wikipedia policy, as reflected in our exchange at Talk:List_of_new_religious_movements#EST
Thank you. DaveApter ( talk) 17:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
This discussion just emphasizes how useless the primary/distinction is for basing policy on. The boundary divides too many different things at different places and has very poor correlation with either verifiability or reliability. Zero talk 10:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you all for your extremely helpful comments to clarify the general issues. It would indeed be helpful to get some feedback on the specific case from non-involved editors if anyone has the patience to trawl through the discussion at Talk:List_of_new_religious_movements. The situation as I see it is as follows: Astynax has a strong desire to have Erhard Seminar Training (est) included in that list. I (and several other editors) feel strongly that this is inappropriate as it was a personal development training scheme which was offered between 1974 and 1984, and was neither religious nor a movement as these words would normally be understood. Astynax argues that several authors have described it as a NRM and this is definitive, despite the fact that several other authors have stated clearly that it is not. Those who have referred to est as a NRM generally have not provided any references to primary sources elsewhere to back up their categorisation, or have merely mentioned it in passing, or have referred to it with explicit qualifications. Astynax has also claimed that the expression 'New religious movement' is a specialised term used by academics in some way other than the meaning of the words in everyday language, although he is unable or unwilling to say what this specialised meaning might be or to point to any reliable source to back up this assertion. Astynax has also modified the lead to the List of new religious movements to better accommodate his interpretation in a manner that seems to me to violate Wikipedia:Lists_(stand-alone_lists)#Selection_criteria. Thank you. DaveApter ( talk) 12:54, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure if this is the best place to ask this question but here goes anyway. The article Jezebel which I went to a lot of trouble to re-write and improve as it had been in a very poor state for years, has a list at the end "In popular culture" which grows longer and longer with editors adding unsourced and, it seems to me, unverifiable information such as somebody called a hurricane "Jezebel" in some movie, a character in a video game has "Jezebel" as a first name, there is a long list of pop songs called "Jezebel". How does anybody know that any of this stuff is even accurate if it is OK just to stick in such bits of trivia with no source? My inclination is to delete all of it except what is cited to a verifiable source, but is that an OK thing to do? Or would it be better to move it all into another article "Jezebel in popular culture"? but I still don't see how it is OK to have an article consisting of a list of unsourced tidbits of trivia. Thanks, Smeat75 ( talk) 18:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Jesús Huerta de Soto article. Can sentence Former European Central Bank director Jean-Claude Trichet wrote that Huerta de Soto’s Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles "is indeed a remarkably stimulating and thought provoking summa." be used in a "reception" section with ref being Jesús Huerta de Soto, Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles, 2012, 3rd Edition, Back cover quotation. I put it in because couple past WP:RSN discussions said that unless there was evidence the quote was fabricated it could be used. I saw several non-RS mentions of it but could not find original quote. (Perhaps they sent him the book? don't know.) Thanks. CM-DC talk 18:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Can someone tell me, is the RT network (formerly Russia Today) a reliable source? I ask because some editors use it and I would happily do so for some things but I always thought the state-owned nature and the existing dislike of the network in established quarters may have dampened its "reliability" on Wikipedia. Can someone please confirm the verdict as I don't know where to look. Thanks.
Also - concerning blogs and material considered non-RS (not forums), are these ok to add on articles as external links? Provided of course no content is drawn from the source in question. Any thoughts? -- Zavtek ( talk) 14:29, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Just want to point out that RT has been brought up several times on this board - you can find them on the archives. Here is a list
My takeaway from all that, is that RT is probably fine for simple facts ("there was a plane crash on Oct 3..") as it is a news org with editors and fact checking, but that it should not be considered a RS for anything controversial. Jytdog ( talk) 18:25, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Steven Hassan is a self-described "cult expert" who has self-published three books on the topic of "cults". The title is largely a marketing term, as he isn't held as an expert by published cult researchers, and his testimony as an expert has been rejected from a court case in the past (see Kendall vs. Kendall).
In the article, the term re-appears in the sidebar, backed by two references - one by the New York Magazine
"Data Mind Games". New York Magazine (New York Media Holdings). July 29, 1996. p. 52.
Jump up ^ "Ex-Moonie says cult groups are preying on russians; Analyst sees Ex communists as easy targets". The Globe (The Globe Newspaper Company). November 22, 1992. p. 9.
and one by The Globe.
"Ex-Moonie says cult groups are preying on russians; Analyst sees Ex communists as easy targets". The Globe (The Globe Newspaper Company). November 22, 1992. p. 9
"Cult expert" is an extraordinary claim, and one that researchers in the area do not agree with, with Michael Langone, David Clark, Carol Giambalvo, Noel Giambalvo and Kevin Garvy expressing their wariness about his methods. (Recovery from Cults, Michael Langone (ed), 1993, New York: W.W. Norton and Company, ISBN 0-393-70164-6, p. 173-177)
So the claim is clearly an extraordinary one, and one that doesn't appear shared amongst others in the anti-cult movement. The media isn't qualified to make the distinction, and therefore the sources provided are not reliable in context to establish that Hassan is a "cult expert". Academic sources by researchers in the same field are required. Zambelo ( talk) 08:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
The first, Chalcraft, David J. (2011). "Jews for Jesus: Occupying Jewish Time and Space". In Stern, Sacha. Sects and Sectarianism in Jewish History. Leiden: BRILL. pp. 220–221
refers only to Hassan as a "cult expert" when it quotes the Globe article
“when the Boston Globe reported the story, they quoted cult expert Steve Hassan (executive of the US anti-cult Freedom of Mind Centre
the second is written by a business writer, Kathryn A Jones.
An expert is defined by peers in the same area of study. An extraordinary claim such as this demands reliable sources per WP:RS. Zambelo ( talk) 22:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
AnonNep, I'm asking whether the title "cult expert" is neutral, given that no published cult researcher, academic or court has given him this title, and that it is a self-given label that is more of a marketing tool than anything else. Cult researchers have questioned his methods and findings. At best I think he should be described as "cult couselor" as per his profession, and then the assertion of "cult expert" should be included within the article and formulated "Steven Hassan has been referred to as a "cult expert" ". Zambelo ( talk) 22:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
(ec)Chalcraft clearly is not making a distinction apart from his sourcing the term to the Boston Globe article which is not exactly a source strongly regarded for such valuations. The term was specifically in reference to the rest of that section ... where it is clear that Hassan wrote a letter to the paper saying he had been "misquoted" making the claims in that article pretty much useless as far as deeming him an "expert" is concerned. The Amway bit states that MLMs are cults in collusion with the FTC and the Republican Party -- dare I say "conspiracy theorist"? Hassan was mostly cited as favouring legislation signed by President Obama. I rather think that if one does not agree with Obama, that does not make them a "cult." The author has no scientific background whatsoever to deem anything a cult, or anyone a "cult expert." In short, neither source presented is sufficient to make the contentious claim that Hassan is deemed a "cult expert". You need sources written by folks remotely knowledgeable in the field of cults. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 23:09, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Reliable Sources are context-specific. (see Reliability in specific contexts - Biographies of living persons). Accordingly a reliable source, especially for an extraordinary claim, must be strong enough to support the claim.
Also see the section on Academic consensus, in particular regarding blanket statements. Also see WP:RSOPINION.
Stating that Hassan is a "cult expert" is a non-neutral blanket statement, and doesn't support or allow for other viewpoints on the matter A neutral title should be chosen (counselor, per his degree) and the matter of whether he is considered an expert or not should appear in the article body with sources for and against this claim.
Sources should be strong, therefore from academic sources in the same community of practice (ie. academic writings about "cults"). Zambelo ( talk) 23:34, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
It'll do. Although this is still far from objective, since he follows his own definition of what constitutes a cult, and has created his own lists. Zambelo ( talk) 02:57, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Is this article a reliable source for the statement of fact:
In 2008, the John William Pope Foundation provided more than 80% of the total budget for each of five leading conservative non-profits in North Carolina.
The relevant quote from the article is
Facing South looked at five of North Carolina's most influential conservative research, advocacy and legal groups -- many of which Art Pope created, or helped create: Capitol Monitor, The John W. Pope Civitas Institute (named after Art Pope's father), the John Locke Foundation, the North Carolina Institute for Constitutional Law and the Pope Center for Higher Education Policy.
Tax records show that Art Pope sits on the board of directors of all but one of the groups, which by law confers a high degree of power to Pope in managing operations, setting policy, and approving their annual budgets.
Most crucially, Pope supplies at least 80 percent -- and in some cases, nearly all -- of the operating budgets of the groups, a level of purse-string power so dominant that the Internal Revenue Service classifies all but one of them as a "private foundation," a relatively rare designation used only by non-profits who disproportionately rely on a single benefactor.
The source is The Institute for Southern Studies, a non-profit media and research center, which has run a number of pieces on Art Pope's political engagements. Research on this topic by the Institute for Southern Studies has been used in articles by a number of news outlets including The New Yorker and The News and Observer a13ean ( talk) 21:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
The source appears to have the byline at the bottom, and is written by Chris Kromm, who according to [57] is the executive editor and publisher of the Institute for Southern Studies. The institute's mission has a strong political bent according to [58]:
The Institute draws attention to the national importance of the South and offers an exciting vision of the region-a place brimming with a capacity for progressive change that challenges its reputation as a monolithic, conservative stronghold. Throughout our history, the Institute has maintained a strong commitment to developing research and publication projects that directly support grassroots organizing, especially efforts for corporate and government accountability.
MastCell is correct to observe that the organization has won awards for journalism and seems to be well regarded for its research and investigations. The tone of the piece itself is quite dispassionate: a blend of facts and analysis but no evident editorializing. The statement in the WP article that the source is intended to support is a concise summary of the facts presented in the piece, and the only part subject to interpretation is the adjective "leading". While caution is merited in general when relying on agenda-driven journalism (from whatever political angle), in this case the reputation of the publisher, the tone of the piece, and the article text it supports all combine to satisfy the determination of reliability. I demur somewhat on the basis of being unable to determine whether the piece (or any of the institute's pieces) is fact-checked, but the publisher's history of journalism awards is a reasonable indicator that they aren't irresponsible in that respect. I say reliable. alanyst 06:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
The Perth Group website is a dissident (or "denialist") HIV/AIDS web which main claim is that the existence of the HIV virus is not proven. I think the next text which describes who belongs to that group here should be a reliable source :
The Perth Group ... The three original members are the leader, biophysicist Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, emergency physician Valendar F Turner and Professor of Pathology John Papadimitriou. Over the years several other scientists have contributed to or joined the Group. These are physicists Bruce Hedland-Thomas, David Causer and Barry Page, Florida USA biochemist Todd Miller and Colombian physician/medical researcher Helman Alfonso.
I think a sufficient condition to consider that text as reliable would be to show the people responsible of the web are certainly Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos and her colleagues, because if that is the case, with the text they would be simply speaking of themselves.
In this site (not a dissident site), it can be read:
the HIV “dissidents” led the way, with Valendar Turner and Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos of the Perth group taking the stand, giving a link to The Perth Group web.
In this site (an official HIV/AIDS web), it can be read:
the Perth Group of medical scientists and physicians from Australia. The Perth Group (led by Eleni Papadopulos); A small band of Australian scientists and physicians; The Perth Group appears to have only two active members: a medical physicist called Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos and an emergency physician called Valendar Turner; and it's given a link to The Perth Group web as a reference (see below, references 3 and 40)
And there are several other dissident sites in which it's acknowledged The Perth Group web are certainly Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos and her colleagues. For example here, in which it's written exactly all the text under evaluation, and a link to The Perth Group web.
The article which would be affected is the HIV/AIDS denialism article. The text "Eleni Papadopulos et al." would be substituted by The Perth Group, which is a Wikipedia article.
Peter the Roman, -- 2.136.95.135 ( talk) 19:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
The first reference is to what seems to be a forum post [59] at MIT BBS. I used Chrome to get a translation of the entire page which starts "Sender: lzmm (people do not make me, I do not prisoners), the letter area: Military Title: China and the East Asian descent ---- DNA data zz " - looks like data from the " Origin of Chinese Civilization Project". The second source is a peer reviewed paper [60] used for "Among Guangzhou Genetic evidence shows evidence of Caucasian maternal mtDNA in Guangzhou. Yao Yonggang et al. reported that Kivisild detected one W mtDNA out of 69 Guangzhou Cantonese population (1.44%), an common Middle Easterner and Iranian marker [35] with a slight difference to other Cantonese." The paper doesn't use the words 'Caucasian', 'Iranian' or 'Middle Easterner'. When I removed it the first time it was replaced by the IP who added it with the edit summary "Editing a genetic paper.mitbbs for 中国各地DNA数据. This is a popular study edited in many Chinese wikipedia. The other is a Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial study in Guangzhou with a mtDNA W marker". I deleted it again and it was replaced with an edit summary saying " Please do not remove this popular Chinese editted on Chinese wiki. The other is also a Chinese study that proves persian presense in guangzhiou". Dougweller ( talk) 10:36, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
From Huangzhou science university
Iranian marker from the middle east
Haplogroup W (mtDNA) is found in only Caucasoid in significant frequencies especially many Middle eastern/West Asian Iranic groups. It's found in the ethnic Iranian Kurds from Persia/Iran who have 10% mtDNA W Quintana-Murci et al. 2004,and in the Zoroastrian of Iran also known as the Parsi who now lives in India and Iran, they have 17.9% of mtDNA W although their population is less than a 100,000 but they have migrated everywhere. Svan population a Caucasus/West Asian Iranic ethnic group is found 8.3%. This strongly proves the theory that Persians did migrated to Guangzhou and contributed their DNA.
Although mtDNA is also found quite signficant in Europe there is no way this mtDNA W Caucasian marker in Guangzhou came from Europeans
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-W-map.png
The maximum frequencies of W are observed in Finland (9.6%), Hungary (5.2%), Latvia (4.1%), Macedonia (4%) and Belarus (3.7%, but over 5% if we exclude the south). The Finns and the Hungarians are both speakers of an Uralic language, which would imply an Uralic connection with haplogroup W. However other Uralic people have much less and often no W at all. For example the Saami have only 1% and the Udmurts 0%.
Regional hotspots in Catalonia, Brittany-Normandy and Ireland mirror those in the same regions for U5 and V, which are also typical of Finland and Karelia. It's hard to see how all these regions could be connected historically, unless all of them share a common Mesolithic ancestry.
Haplogroup W is also well represented among some ethnicities of the North Caucasus, such as the Karachay-Balkars (8.1%), Avars (8.1%), Adyghe-Kabardin (5.2%), three peoples who also share nearly 5% of haplogroup X.
Outside Europe, haplogroup W is also found at high frequencies among the Tajiks (6.2%), around 1.5% among the Uzbeks, Turkmens and Kazakhs, and at trace frequencies (< 0.5%) among many North Asian ethnic groups (Tuva, Yakuts, Buryats, Mongolians, Koreans, Japanese). The most likely explanation is that W was a minor lineage of the Indo-Europeans. A founder effect in the female Indo-European population could explain their oddly elevated frequency of W.
92.236.36.173 ( talk) 8:03, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
A bona fide forum post on a internet portal site (anyone else tries to state otherwise are either legally blind or tries to deceive other editor's lack of language skill)...the author might as well be Albert Einstein and there wouldn't be a snow ball's chance in hell this source can be used as reliable scientific literature. And yes, I am a native Chinese speaker. Jim101 ( talk) 18:08, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
中华文明探源工程初步结果----DNA数据
Zanhe, I sincerely hope you double check next time before making such claims it's not forum. It is a genetic article not a forum because if it was a forum it would have mentioned it on the address bar and comment box would have been given. What about Baidu/Wiki? it clearly mentions the source here and you can't edit the source unless you locked in.
Isn't this reliable enough? SOURCE ------->
http://www.baike.com/wiki/%E3%80%8A%E4%BA%BA%E5%8F%A3%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6%E3%80%8B ???
I HOPE TO GOD YOU USE YOUR NATIVE CHINESE READING SKILLS AND READ THIS
Population research 2010
> http://tupian.baike.com/a0_32_85_01300001156138130584852795988_jpg.html
Another source shows Guangdong Han have 68% Han Chinese paternal DNA but only 15% maternal Han Chinese DNA which is also very close to the original study.
As for the second source. Why must the paper mention Caucasian? would you prefer they mention Mongoloid. How much intelligence does it take to figure out mtDNA W is a Caucasian marker? it doesn't take a genius to understand
Haplogroup W (mtDNA) is a Caucasian marker because is dominant in Iranic speaking and Indo-European people. Unless you're telling me Europeans, Iranians and Kurds are not Caucasians. Why such a lack of commonsense?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/
92.236.36.173 ( talk)10:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
In her book, Alice writes some things about what her philosophical arch-enemy Bob said to her. We don't have any statements from Bob regarding his side of the story. Charlie, writing in a reliable-source newspaper, mentions what Alice said about Bob.
Does the fact that Charlie relayed what Alice wrote about Bob make it suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia? An editor is claiming that, even though we don't have Bob's side, Wikipedia should nonetheless state Alice's side, because Charlie reported it in a reliable source. Bob is a famous individual. vzaak ( talk) 01:16, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 155 | ← | Archive 157 | Archive 158 | Archive 159 | Archive 160 | Archive 161 | → | Archive 165 |
I'm a non-participant in ongoing edits/talk. This looks to me to be a POV noticeboard problem so I have posted at POV noticeboard, but might be worth someone looking at the problem from the RS perspective too. In ictu oculi ( talk) 15:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
User:CFredkin claims that Talking Points Memo is not a reliable source for documenting a Senator's vote. [1] [2] The content will be easily sourced from elsewhere, being a US Senator's vote, but I don't like editors attempting to move the Overton Window by making false claims. Please advise. — goethean 16:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Talking Points Memo is certainly reliable in this instance. Two kinds of pork ( talk) 18:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
User:Gamaliel: Can you please weigh in here? Thanks. CFredkin ( talk) 05:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Honestly, I'm not trying to play "gotcha" here. As I indicated below, I'm just looking for a level playing field. Both TPM and Newsmax are edited and POV. It appears that they should both be reliable, or not. CFredkin ( talk) 16:51, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Acupuncture there is an ongoing discussion concerning the sources used to support claims about the effectiveness of acupuncture. This could really use another set of eyes looking at it. --
Guy Macon (
talk) 18:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
After seeing a WP:Edit war between Atotalstranger and NorthBySouthBaranof, evidenced by this, this and this, over whether or not Forbes.com is a WP:Reliable source, I decided to bring the matter here. Notice what NorthBySouthBaranof links to in the first diff-link. I always thought that Forbes.com counted as a WP:Reliable source for celebrity/public figure information; it's certainly widely used on Wikipedia with regard to who is richest and/or most influential, though it's often being used to source itself in such cases. I haven't checked this noticeboard's archives to see if, or how many times, Forbes/Forbes.com has been discussed here, so forgive me if this thread is redundant.
It is also worth noting that Atotalstranger's approach to sourcing is currently being discussed at WP:ANI. Flyer22 ( talk) 00:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
The third reference in the article appears to be a copy of this wiki article.Even the language is exactly the same.Am I correct in my judgement in the fact that this is not a reliable source?The one objection that can be raised against the points I have made is this:It is hosted on the official website of the department of health of the West Bengal government,which oversees the functioning of Medical Colleges(as medical schools are known in India.)
The section I am referrng to is this:
Sagore Dutta Charitable Hospital and Dispensary initially started as a philanthropic organization with an objective of all round health care of the poor peasants and industrial workers of Kamarhati and adjoining areas. Its immense service to fulfill the objectives was recognized when the then Medical Secretary, Dr. Anderson, on his India tour, visited ‘a rural hospital and dispensary situated outside Calcutta, the Sogore Dutt Charitable Hospital and Dispensary’ in January, 1937.The Sagore Dutt Hospital Act, 1958 (Act 14 of 1958) was enforced with effect from the 1st March 1959, vide notification No. Medl./852/14-84/58, dated 30/01/1959, published in the Calcutta Gazette of 1959, Part 1, page 662. The Act provided for the taking over of Sagore Dutt Hospital at Kamarhati in the district of 24 Parganas together with the charitable dispensary attached thereto, by the State Government with a view to the promotion of public health.[3]
Guru-45 ( talk) 17:34, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
There is a RfC regarding the use of the word "Jewish" to describe a conman character in several 1980 Barclay's Bank commercials. There is a heated discussion regarding the sources to support the content.
Discussion at Talk:Peter Sellers#Request for Comment: Use of term "Jewish" to describe conman character. -- Oakshade ( talk) 21:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
I cannot tell if this is an actual media arm of Toonzone or is a wikia. I am trying to determine whether the site is RS or not. - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 02:08, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
and |date=
(
help)</ref>I have added a source ( an Egyptian newspaper on line) to other existing sources. (The article was not modified). The reason is that some Pro Arab readers do not believe that Israel did not planned the war in advance, and would suspect the bias of Israeli / Western history books who claim otherwise. Hence it is better to add a well known Egyptian newspaper (on line, English). Unfortunately, it was deleted since "nor al-Ahram ... are WP:RS sources for history articles" Am I wrong? Ykantor ( talk) 21:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm currently rewriting the Etchmiadzin Cathedral article. Quite a few sources call it the oldest church in the world and that claim is obviously debatable, so I added "often called the oldest church in the world."
Two of the six sources are published by AuthorHouse, which is "a self-publishing company." Since self-published sources are not considered reliable should I keep them? Also, please consider that I used a wording (i.e. "often called") which makes it clear that it is not a fact, but the opinion of some authors anyway, so does it really matter if its self-published or not?
the two sources
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-- Երևանցի talk 01:30, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
I want to write an article on P.K. Mohan also known as Mohanji.
Official website: [www.mohanji.org].
General coverage: [6] [7] [8] [9].
The Power of Purity book: [10] [11].
"Kailash with Mohanji" book release media coverage: [12] [13] [14] [15].
Valedictory address by Mohanji at the The Life Positive Expo - 2012 in Mumbai: [16].
Mohanji's Charity organization Ammucare third party sources coverage: [17] [18] [19] [20].
Mohanji as CEO of a Shipping Company coverage: [21] [22] [23].
Mohanji coverage in Serbian magazines: [24] [25].
Please take your time to check the sources and let me know what you think. Thank you! Zlio2004 ( talk) 13:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Edward Granville Browne spent a year in Persia back in late 19th century during which he did some research on Bábism/ Bahaism as well. In 1915 a Christian Missionary after staying in Persia for some time wrote another book on Bahaism in which he used Browne's findings. The book got a good review from Harvard Divinity School. The question is whether I can use this 1915 book ( reprinted in 1970 By AMS Press Inc.) as a scholarly source for this edit. Thank you.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 18:22, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
User Loki racer added the LinkedIn link to the LokiTorrent page:
LokiTorrent was a BitTorrent indexing service operated by Edward Webber ("Lowkee")
Seems a pretty clear conflict with WP:LINKSTOAVOID, WP:QUESTIONABLE, and WP:SOURCES. It's not even there to back anything up -- just to link Webber's professional profile. Posting to RSN after the link was added for the fourth time. Not sure if this should maybe be over at ANV -- or COIN, based on the fact that the user appears to be the subject of the article.
Diffs:
-- Rhododendrites ( talk) 13:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
A gentleman publishes a recording of himself making a controversial statement and small, biased, news organizations quote him saying it. Could someone please check these sources for being WP:RS? Please do so at Talk:Bryan_Fischer#Please_determine_whether_these_sources_are_WP:RS_for_this_content. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
RWW etc. are reliable only for statements of opinion ascribed as opinion - per the usual caveats about groups with specific strong political objectives. Historically, quotations may be taken "out of context" and thus the fact a person said specific words is not necessarily something usable on Wikipedia unless unrelated reliable sources also make use of them. IIRC, even a major news organisation can err -- vide NBC news on the Zimmerman police call which used his "words" but presented them in a misleading manner. To make claims as "fact" would require better sources less noted for editorializing. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I looked at the video -- and suggest the claims made are taken woefully out of the religious context of the presentation - which is that St. Paul described idols as demons or devils, and that those who worship idols are worshipping demons -- which is not all that odd for a religious speaker. Any more than saying that anyone who has recited the Apostle's Creed is a "creationist". Making an issue of a religious person advancing his own religion is rather non-encyclopedic -- a claim may be "true" but unless an impartial outside reliable source finds it noteworthy, neither will Wikipedia. Collect ( talk) 20:21, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Greetings, I'm looking for consensus on the propriety of using Newsmax as a source at Sean Maloney. Here's the . And here's the source. Thanks. CFredkin ( talk) 21:58, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
User:MilesMoney, User:Thargor Orlando: How is Newsmax different from Talking Points Memo? CFredkin ( talk) 05:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC) (Regardless, this noticeboard is for discussion regarding source reliability, not for the accuracy of a particular statement. In this case, that is indisputable.) CFredkin ( talk) 05:17, 8 November 2013 (UTC) Personally, I'm just looking for a level playing field here. To me, Newsmax and TPM seem pretty comparable. I'm fine with both being reliable, or both being unreliable. CFredkin ( talk) 05:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I fail to see why Newsmax inst a sufficient source for this particular piece of information. WeldNeck ( talk) 14:31, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I already know the answer to this is going to be a resounding no, I think. But while I'm trying to track down a 1912 source that may or may not still physically exist, I'd like to make sure that I'm not being unduly hard on my sourcing expectations:
The cousin Teddy [sic] character represents another common stereotype. He is fastidious and effeminate, has fussy hand movements, belongs to a bible study group and clearly deplores poker. He immediately takes the wife’s side in the situation. Any modern audience would see him as obviously gay.
The site is obviously an independent-citizen movie review site, whose reviewers have no particular film studies qualifications, by their own admission. However, it has considerable longevity and some measure of recognition (Rotten Tomatoes considers it a source of reviews, at least sometimes [27]) and a master's thesis (itself insufficient to be a reliable source) cites it as an example of movie reviews shifting to citizen journalism in the online era. [28] Bleh. Typing that out really makes this look meager, but there we go. Is that enough for this source to be acceptable to bookend the 1912 observation? Squeamish Ossifrage ( talk) 16:58, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Digital Journal is a Canada-based website which describes itself as "a global digital media network with thousands of members and content creators in 200 countries around the world... A media business where everyone can contribute and engage... a platform and a destination where everyone can contribute content and share their unique perspectives on the world and issues of the day" [29] Is it correct to regard this site as a blog, rather than as a regular news source? Under what circumstances, and in what manner, can material be used in articles, if the only source is Digital Journal? Can it ever be used as a reliable source in a biography of a living person? In particular, can it be used as a reliable source for the unattributed assertion that Unite Against Fascism is "believed to be a front group for the far-left extremist Socialist Workers Party,” and that it planned “to counter demonstrate and disrupt rallies in memory of Lee Rigby"? [30] RolandR ( talk) 17:22, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Is Steven Emerson's " Investigative Project on Terrorism" a reliable source for BLP's? Emerson was awarded a Polk Award for his work on terrorism. WeldNeck ( talk) 21:00, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
extended list
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ARTICLE: +972 Magazine NGO Monitor criticized +972 as being antisemitic "because it seeks to strip the Jewish state of its legitimacy" by using the apartheid analogy regarding Israel.[4] [4] NGO Monitor slams funding of ‘+972’ blog ( http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=255167)
NGO Monitor said that B'tselem distorts its data and uses "abusive and demonizing rhetoric designed to elicit political support for Palestinians".[56] [56] ^ Betselem: Report Uses Outdated Sources and the Rhetoric of Demonization ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/editions/v2n12/v2n12-4.htm) , NGO Monitor Analysis (Vol. 2 No. 12), 15 August 2004. ARTICLE: Yesh Din NGO monitor has been critical of Yesh Din's activities.[8] [8] ^ "NGO Monitor slams Belgium funds for ‘anti-Israel’ group" ( http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=233680) . The Jerusalem Post. 14 August 2011.
Gerald Steinberg, of NGO Monitor, said that the report was tied to the recent Palestinian hunger strikes and that AI “jumped on the bandwagon to help their Palestinian allies.”[24] Steinberg also pointed out that one of the researchers, Deborah Hyams was not a neutral party, saying that “Hyams has volunteered as a ‘human shield’ in Beit Jala (near Bethlehem) to deter Israeli military responses to gunfire and mortars targeting Jewish civilians in Jerusalem,” and that “in 2008 she signed a letter claiming Israel is 'a state founded on terrorism, massacres and the dispossession of another people from their land.'[25] {24] ^ 'Amnesty administrative detention report PR gimmick' ( http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=272985) [25] ^ 'Amnesty report against Israel written by pro-Palestinian activists' ( http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=4584)
ARTICLE: The Electronic Intifada Gerald M. Steinberg, head of the pro-Israel NGO Monitor, described Electronic Intifada as "an explicitly pro-Palestinian political and ideological Web site".[7] that hosts "anti-Israel propaganda."[8] [7] ^ "Human Rights Watch needs watching" ( http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=4055&print=yes) , Gerald M. Steinberg, The Jewish Week, March 25, 2005 [8] ^ "Ken Roth's blood libel ( http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525949034 &pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull) , Jerusalem Post, August 26, 20067.
FIDH's mandate “is to contribute to the respect of all the rights defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.” It aims to make “effective improvements in the protection of victims, the prevention of Human Rights violations and the sanction of their perpetrators.”[1] [1] ^ http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/international_federation_of_human_rights_fidh_paris_ Q: Why is the FIDH mandate attributed to an NGO Monitor site ?? FIDH’s finances lack transparency, as funding sources are not itemized on its website or in financial statements, and no response was received to letters requesting this information. Instead, FIDH lists general figures and provides a financial summary: “FIDH relies heavily on donations from the public and from private businesses, contributions from its member organizations and on the commitment of its voluntary workers. It also receives grants from international and national bodies, and from foundations...”[3] 3. ^ Report "FIDH: Prioritizing Politics over Protection" ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/article/fidh_prioritizing_politics_over_protection) , NGO Monitor, 2006
Machover represents the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, a Gaza-based NGO, which, according to Anne Herzberg, legal adviser to NGO Monitor, is "leading the lawfare strategy."[4] 4. ^ Lawfare Against Israel ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122583394143998285.html )
ARTICLE: Anne Bayefsky She has also argued that Human Rights Watch "fanned the flames of racial intolerance" in the lead-up to the Durban Conference by facilitating the exclusion of Jewish representatives from an NGO caucus, later covering up its role in the affair and misrepresenting the outcome to the media.[9] 9. ^ "Human Rights Watch Coverup" ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=908) . Ngo-monitor.org. External Links Human Rights Watch Coverup ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=908)
Gerald M. Steinberg, in an op-ed in the Ottawa Citizen, wrote that while HRW had promised an investigation, it has not offered any information about it to the public, or addressed the issue of the credibility of Garlasco's reports on Israeli human rights violations.[42] 42. ^ Ottawa Citizen The sad state of 'human rights' organizations, ( http://www.ottawacitizen.com/story_print.html?id=2679204&sponsor=) , Gerald Steinberg, March 14, 2010
[4] Gerald M. Steinberg (11 March 2006). "Challenging the NGO mythology - HaMoked and B'Tselem have been accused of besmirching the state and its security forces". The Jerusalem Post.
31. ^ 'Peace mustn't become ‘orphan’ of Arab Spring' ( http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx? id=276734) 32. ^ EU ends funding for ICAHD ( http://www.jewishtribune.ca/uncategorized/2008/09/16/eu-ends-funding-foricahd)
In addition, Daniel Fink, writing on behalf of NGO Monitor, shows that Ateek has described Zionism as a “step backward in the development of Judaism,” and Zionists as “oppressors and war makers.”[25] 25. ^ Sabeel’s ‘Peace’ façade ( http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3464067,00.html)
Kenneth Roth has been criticized by the Jerusalem-based NGO Monitor for allegedly being biased against Israel. Gerald M. Steinberg has been a long-time critic of Roth's role as head of Human Rights Watch from 1993. Writing in a 2004 Jerusalem Post article[28] 28. ^ "Israelis Have No 'Human Rights'" ( http://www-ngo monitor.org/article/_israelis_have_no_human_rights_ ) By Gerald M. Steinberg, March 08, 2004, The Jerusalem Post
Gerald Steinberg, president of NGO Monitor, said, "If, as in 2001, the same NGOs are provided a platform in New York at 'Durban III', this will set the stage for another round of activities that exploit and undermine the moral and human rights agenda."[46] 46. ^ Concerns growing over NGO participation in Durban III ( http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=226320&R=R1)
104. ^ Balanson, Naftali (2010-11). "Moral Argument Against BDS" ( http://zeek.forward.com/articles/117084/) . ZEEK (The Jewish Daily Forward). Retrieved 6 March 2011. In an op-ed published in The Jerusalem Post in November 2010, Gerald Steinberg and Jason Edelstein contend that while "the need to refute their [BDS organizations] allegations is clear, students and community groups must also adopt a proactive strategy to undermine the credibility and influence of these groups. This strategy will marginalize many of the BDS movement's central actors, and expose the lie that BDS is a grassroots protest against Israeli policy. Exposing their abuses and funding sources, and forcing their campaign leaders and participants to respond to us will change the dynamic in this battle."[105] 105. ^ By G. Steinberg and J. Edelstein (6 November 2010). "Turning the tables on BDS," ( http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=194275) . Jpost.com. Retrieved 13 December 2010.
Center for Constitutional Rights[3] [3] ^ NGO Monitor ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/center_for_constitutional_rights) Q: (why is NGO Monitor used as a source ?)
ARTICLE: War on Want NGO Monitor's Dan Kosky wrote that due to War on Want's support of an Israel boycott and its stand against the British presence in Iraq, a thorough review of the organization should be conducted by the UK regarding funding, for "if not, the United Kingdom could find itself aiding an Israel boycott campaign."[18] 18. ^ Where War on Want is itself found wanting ( http://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/where-war-wantitself-found-wanting )
43. ^ a b Lori Lowenthal Marcus (30 March 2013). "Penn Hillel Provided Platform to Venomous ‘Breaking The Silence’" ( http://www.jewishpress.com/news/penn-hillel-provided-platform-to-venomous-breaking-thesilence/).
According to Gerald Steinberg, the attempt to label Israel an apartheid state is "the embodiment of the new antisemitism that seeks to deny the Jewish people the right of equality and self-determination.".[128] 128. ^ a b Steinberg, Gerald M. (28 August 2004). "The Apartheid Propaganda" ( http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48909392.html) . Aish.com. Retrieved 2010-07-22. Amnesty International (AI) has been accused by the American Jewish Congress and NGO Monitor of having a double standard when it comes to its assessment of Israel. [197] 197. ^ Getting human rights wrong ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/article/getting_human_rights_wrong)
Although Adalah-NY is not financially transparent,[2] [2] ^ a b c "Adalah-NY" ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/adalah_ny). NGO Monitor.
According to Anne Herzberg, legal adviser to NGO Monitor, PCHR is "leading the lawfare strategy."[12] 12. ^ Lawfare Against Israel ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122583394143998285.html) External Links NGO Monitor Lawfare Monograph ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/data/images/File/lawfaremonograph.pdf)
ARTICLE: World Conference Against Racism 2001 Critics described the description of Israel as apartheid as the "Durban Strategy". They claim that this comparison was made with the intention of causing and encouraging divestment from and boycott of Israel.[16] 16. ^ Steinberg, Gerald (15 June 2006). "Anti-Israel obsessions" ( http://www.jewishtoronto.net/content_display.html?ArticleID=185328) . Canadian Jewish News (United Jewish Communities) Analysis and greater detail Steinberg (Summer 2006). "The Centrality of NGOs in The Durban Strategy" ( http://www.yaleisraeljournal.com/summ2006/steinberg.pdf) (PDF). Yale Israel Journal (Yale College undergraduates) 9. — an analysis of the NGO Forum by the Executive Director of NGO Monitor Gerald M. Steinberg (10 August 2005). "ACADEMIC FREEDOM AND THE AUT BOYCOTT CAMPAIGN: EXAMINING THE LESSONS" ( http://www.biu.ac.il/rector/academic_freedom/files/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20Steinberg- %20boycott%20jcpa%20draft.pdf) (PDF). Conference of the National Postgraduate Committee, UK , Glasgow. 2005-08-12. p. 8.
The European Union has been criticized for funding Israeli-based political Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) that attempt to undermine Israeli policies and preach "division and confrontation".[20] NGO Monitor claims they have identified over 48 million dollars that have been allocated to Israeli and Palestinian NGOs by the European Commission.[21] As a response, the Israeli Knesset attempted to pass two bills that would limit the amount that a foreign government or organization could gift. However, these two bills were never passed into law.[22] 20. ^ Funding Israel's Detractors. Wall Street Journal ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121003096750769111.html) 21. ^ throws out NGO funding case brought by Israel-based watchdog. Times of Israel ( http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-court-throws-out-ngo-funding-case-brought-by-israel-basedwatchdog/EUcourt) 22. ^ Factious funding. Jpost. 2011. ( http://www.jpost.com/JerusalemReport/Israel/Article.aspx?id=247585)
According to NGO Monitor, "much of the substance of these tours and programs is provided by officials from radical anti-Israel NGOs".[4] [4] ^ "NGOs and Birthright Unplugged: Plugging into anti-Israel campaigning" ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/article/ngos_and_birthright_unplugged_plugging_into_anti_israel_campaigning) ARTICLE: Christine Chanet In the view of NGO Monitor, “Chanet has formed pre-existing prejudicial opinions on areas directly covered by the Mission mandate.” (NO REF)
Other sources assert that B'tselem's definition of a civilian is too broad and includes Palestinians killed while attacking Israelis.[7] 7. ^ Betselem: Report Uses Outdated Sources and the Rhetoric of Demonization ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/editions/v2n12/v2n12-4.htm) NGO Monitor Analysis (Vol. 2 No. 12), 15 August 2004.
External Link Durban Conference 2009 ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/durban_conference_0) at NGO Monitor
Daniel Fink, writing on behalf of NGO Monitor, shows that Sabeel leader Naim Ateek has described Zionism as a “step backward in the development of Judaism,” and Zionists as “oppressors and war makers.”[39][40] 39. ^ Sabeel’s ‘Peace’ façade ( http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3464067,00.html) 40. ^ Updating the Ancient Infrastructure of Christian Contempt: Sabeel Footnotes 36-47 ( http://jcpa.org/article/updating-the-ancient-infrastructure-of-christian-contempt-sabeel/) 44. ^ ngo-monitor.org ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/holy_land_christian_ecumenical_foundation_hcef_)
NGO Monitor said that ISM "has a long record of encouraging activists to take ‘direct action’ that often places them in danger and in direct confrontations with the IDF."[59][60][61] Q: (None are references to NGO Monitor)
ARTICLE: Foreign and Commonwealth Office In 2012, the Foreign Office was criticised by Gerald Steinberg, of the Jerusalem-based research institute, NGO Monitor, saying that the Foreign Office and the Department for International Development to Palestinian NGOs provided more than £500,000 in funding to Palestinian NGOs which he says "promote political attacks on Israel." In response, a spokesman for the Foreign Office said, “we are very careful about who and what we fund. The objective of our funding is to support efforts to achieve a two-state solution. Funding a particular project for a limited period of time does not mean that we endorse every single action or public comment made by an NGO or by its employees.”[12] 12. ^ ‘Investigate UK funding of Palestinian NGOs' ( http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/82746/investigate-ukfunding-palestinian-ngos%E2%80%99)
ARTICLE: Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center It has also been accused of using antisemitic rhetoric.[4] [4] Gerald M. Steinberg. Cut the cash, end the hostility ( http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? External Links NGO Monitor study ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/v3n11/SabeelsEcumenicalFacade.htm)
ARTICLE: Criticism of Amnesty International Gerald Steinberg, of NGO Monitor, said that the report was tied to the recent Palestinian hunger strikes and that AI “jumped on the bandwagon to help their Palestinian allies.”[24] Steinberg also pointed out that one of the researchers, Deborah Hyams was not a neutral party, saying that “Hyams has volunteered as a ‘human shield’ in Beit Jala (near Bethlehem) to deter Israeli military responses to gunfire and mortars targeting Jewish civilians in Jerusalem,” and that “in 2008 she signed a letter claiming Israel is 'a state founded on terrorism, massacres and the dispossession of another people from their land.'[25] 24. ^ 'Amnesty administrative detention report PR gimmick' ( http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=272985) 25. ^ 'Amnesty report against Israel written by pro-Palestinian activists' ( http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=4584)
In July 2013, j. published an article about a report on JVP from NGO Monitor. The article noted that NGO Monitor's report "concludes that JVP has 'actively promoted the central dimensions of the political warfare strategy against Israel.'” The article quoted Yitzhak Santis, chief programs officer at NGO Monitor, as saying "the organization supports or has partnered with groups such as Sabeel, Electronic Intifada, Al-Awda, International ANSWER Coalition, the International Solidarity Movement and Students for Justice in Palestine, all of which label Israel a racist apartheid state, support BDS and, in some cases, support violence against Israelis." [33] [33] ^ BDS backer bumped from Heroes contest ( http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/10/10/3089794/bds-leaderbumped-from-federation-heroes-contest)
On 7 September 2010, it was announced that George Soros planned to donate 100 million US dollars to Human Rights Watch.[7] Soros's donation was criticized by Gerald Steinberg, the founder of the pro-Israel research organization NGO Monitor.[8] Political Science Professor and former consultant to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs Gerald M. Steinberg of Bar Ilan University, head of NGO Monitor, a pro-Israel NGO[32] accused HRW of having "a strong anti-Israel bias from the beginning".[33] He claimed their reports were based primarily on "Palestinian eyewitness testimony" — testimony that is "not accurate, objective or credible but serves the political goal of indicting Israel".[34] 8. ^ Steinberg, Gerald (2010-09-12). "Selling Out to Soros by Prof. Gerald Steinberg" ( http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/selling_out_to_soros_iYfn7YXaZg8xEFCp5iEcCJ) . Nypost.com. Retrieved 2013-01-28. 33. ^ Gerald M. Steinberg, Jerusalem Post, 25 January 2009, For HRW, Israel is always guilty ( http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1232643745914) 34. ^ Steinberg, Gerald (2009-09-03). "Op-Ed: Who are Israel’s accusers? | JTA - Jewish & Israel News" ( http://jta.org/news/article/2009/09/03/1007523/op-ed-who-are-israels-accusers) . JTA. Retrieved 2013-01-28. Links: NGO Monitor: HRW in 2011 - More Balance, Less Credibility ( http://www.ngomonitor.org/article/hrw_in_more_balance_less_credibility)
NGO Monitor criticized PYALARA's publishing of two articles for children which glorified Palestinian terrorism. One was about Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine leader Abu Ali Mustafa, calling him "a political leader ... whose history prides his nationalistic activism," without mentioning anything of his activities in planning and carrying out terrorist acts. The other article, referred to suicide bombers as "young Palestinians who have willingly sacrificed their lives in the name of their homeland." In addition, NGO Monitor criticized PYALARA for using funds “donated explicitly for non-political and non-violent projects in order to promote blatantly political objectives, including the indirect support for terror attacks on civilians."[1] 1. ^ Palestinian Poster Calling for Israel Boycott Includes Logo of U.N. Agency ( http://cnsnews.com/news/article/palestinian-poster-calling-israel-boycott-includes-logo-un-agency) External links NGO Monitor article ( http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/v1n05/v1n05-1.htm) Retrieved
The term "halo effect" has been applied to human rights organizations that have used their status to move away from their stated goals. Political scientist Gerald Steinberg has claimed that non-governmental organizations (NGOs) take advantage of the "halo effect" and are "given the status of impartial moral watchdogs" by governments and the media.[14][15] 14 Jeffray, Nathan (24 June 2010). "Interview: Gerald Steinberg". The Jewish Chronicle. 15 Balanson, Naftali (8 October 2008). "The 'halo effect' shields NGOs from media scrutiny". The Jerusalem Post. Further reading: Steinberg, Gerald M (30 December 2009). "Human Rights NGOs Need a Monitor". The Jewish Daily Forward.
Opponents of the analogy claim it is intended to delegitimize Israel.[13] 13. ^ a b The Apartheid Propaganda ( http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48909392.html) Gerald M. Steinberg In an op-ed for the Jerusalem Post, Gerald Steinberg, Professor of Political Studies at Bar Ilan University, argued that "Ethno-national disputes, occupation, and charges of discrimination against minorities are also part of the conflicts in Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Kosovo and Bosnia, Sri Lanka, India/Pakistan, etc., but the demonization campaign is unique to Israel. ... Indeed, the racism and denial of legitimacy characteristic of apartheid are actually applicable to Arab and Islamic rejection of Jewish rights . ... By screaming 'apartheid' at every opportunity, the leaders of this campaign have succeeded in burying data showing that [the security] barrier has saved the lives of many Israelis. In today's immoral political doublespeak, protecting Israelis from terror has become 'apartheid."[261] 261. ^ Steinberg, Gerald M. Abusing 'Apartheid' for the Palestinian Cause ( http://spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=271) , Jerusalem Post, 24 August 2004. |
רסטיניאק ( talk) 12:34, 9 November 2013 (UTC)רסטיניאק
This column would appear to be a sensationalist treatment of celebrity deaths. How reliable is it in terms of categorizing the deaths as "unusual", thus supporting this edit to List of unusual deaths? Given that it includes such mundane instances as falling off a roof, hanging oneself with a belt, a ruptured appendix, and falling when a safety harness broke, I would have to say that the inclusion in the list was based on the fame of the deceased more than any actual determination that the deaths were "unusual".— Kww( talk) 00:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
We haven't had one external comment yet at my post above in case anyone has a moment! We did an RFC earlier which is linked in that post if anyone's curious. - Darouet ( talk) 16:36, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
We have a source dispute on the page for the Ghouta chemical attack, which occurred early in the morning on 21 August 2013. Content added here using this article from the New Scientist argues, quoting Richard Guthrie, that the night of the chemical attacks was the one night that week in which wind blew east: away from government soldiers, and towards rebels.
The statement hasn't been reported elsewhere, so far as we can find, and it's not clear how reliable or what kind of a news source the "New Scientist" is. Because I study climate, perhaps, I was a little skeptical of the claim: at a given site and time period, you'll usually see one or two dominant wind patterns, and see that change with seasons. So after editors began arguing about the veracity of the statement, I went to the NOAA, which has the largest available database on this and is regularly used for research or practical purposes globally. According to the site, wind did blow ENE on the night of the Ghouta attacks. However, and you can check this yourselves, wind also blew that direction every day of that week, and of that month. It turns out that the average wind direction at the site over the last 5 years is 245, or ENE.
All Syria civil war related articles are under sanctions because the issue is politically charged. I have the impression that efforts to retain the statement using the New Scientist source, invoking WP:V and WP:RS, amount to WP:GAMING because retaining the information seems to violate WP:COMMONSENSE. Input would be appreciated. - Darouet ( talk) 19:32, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I added content about two Human coronaviruses as the source of the common cold to the Common cold article. I cited a study from the Journal of Virology that mentions this fact and cites two articles as the source. The J.Virol. article is about dentritic cells in HCoV infection and not about the epidemiological study it mentions that says HCoV's cause 30% of common colds.
Specifically, it says, “Epidemiological studies suggest that HCoVs account for 15 to 30% of common colds, with only occasional spreading to the lower respiratory tract. Airway epithelial cells represent the primary target of infection.” The authors then cite an article from the Archives of Pediatrics, and Journal of Hospital Infection which report on two studies in neonatal intensive care units regarding the transmission of these human coronaviruses. Here’s a link to the full article that mentions this: http://jvi.asm.org/content/86/14/7577.long
I added this to the Common cold article: [31]. But Doc James reverted claiming that it is based on primary sources and can't be used. [32]. The fact that two human coronaviruses OC43 and 229E are among the many viruses that cause the common cold is well documented in the literature to the point of common knowledge. This fact is often mentioned as background information in journal articles reporting studies on the HCoV's. It seems perfectly reasonable to use this source for the edits. Malke 2010 ( talk) 13:34, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
User:LudicrousTripe is deleting material sourced to Pawns of War and Sideshow and replacing it with a supposed quotation from a primary source mentioned in Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent (a work only tangentially related to the article). While Chomsky's opinions on some topics may be notable, my understanding is that as a linguist and polemicist he lacks historical training and therefore shouldn't be used to establish historical facts over academic historians. However, LudicrousTripe assures me that Chomsky is a reliable source for factual claims and insists that my only motive for disagreement must be a personal dislike of Chomsky. Should Chomsky be used to establish the authenticity and historical significance of this quote, and should it replace Pawns of War and Sideshow? TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 17:36, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Your tone is, as usual, it seems, judging by your talk page, unnecessarily combative. Quite disappointing, as it makes any interaction with you extremely unpleasant. Anyway, let's get this over with.
There are few points I want to make.
1) It was not I who wanted to replace the stuff; it was Balgill1000. My reversion was admittedly trying to cement that replacement, which brings me to my next point.
2) Despite appearances, I do not want to "replace" anything; it appeared to me from your reversion of this Balgill1000 person, and its edit summary, that you had tried to replace Chomsky–Herman with other stuff on the basis that you did not think C–E are RS. I say "appeared" because I've just checked Balgill1000's original edit and it was he/she who had wanted to use C–E as a replacement. Your edit summary led me to my bad conclusion, though I do not seek to put the blame on your for my mistake. My errors are my own. Anyway, just a simple mistake on my part that I wanted to clarify. I am strongly in favour of not replacing/deleting alternative views, even ones I don't like; Wikipedia should be a place were all views are aired and the reader can come to their own conclusion.
3) I did not "insist" that your motive for disagreement "must" be a personal dislike of C–E; it was a potential conclusion to be based on a simple point of logic. Let me explain things: I made a conditional statement: if you couldn't point me to where C–E have been ruled out as RS on topics that are to do with US foreign policy, then I could assume that it was nothing more than WP:IDON'TLIKEIT. After all, if you have no objective basis that rules them out as RS to which you can point me, the only possible conclusion is that you have a merely subjective basis for not regarding them as RS. Just a simple point of logic. The mere existence of this discussion on this noticeboard tells me there is no Wikipedia policy or whatever that excludes C–E as RS, hence my suspicion about a lurking WP:IDON'TLIKEIT appears to have been validated.
To be honest with the admins or whoever deals with this noticeboard, dealing with this clearly and deeply unhappy individual is just so unenjoyable, I am minded to let him just get on and do what he wants with the article. Actually, I'm not minded, I am certain: just let him get on with it. I am not going to make any further posts here. Thank you. LudicrousTripe ( talk) 18:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
It's worth pointing out that academics like Chomsky often provide sources in their books. In this case, even without access to the book, the provision of a quote allows me to find this, which says the relevant quote was sourced by Chomsky/Herman to a US Senate hearing. (This is slightly unsatisfactory as the quote doesn't seem to have been given to the hearing, so was likely cited by someone in it... but still.) Podiaebba ( talk) 23:35, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
TheTimesTheyAreAChanging, if you had a copy of Clymer's book, which confirms the facts reported by Chomsky, and brought this report to challenge those facts, that is very disruptive. You should have said Chomsky correctly said that Sihanouk complained about the bombings and held a press conference rather than misleading us by claiming those facts were false.
The disputed text per your link, is "On 26 March 1969, one week after the bombings began, the Cambodian government publicly condemned the almost daily bombing by U.S. aircraft, alleging that these attacks were directed against peaceful Cambodian farmers and demanding that these criminal attacks be stopped immediately and indefinitely. Prince Sihanouk called a press conference two days later on March 28 in which he emphatically denied denied reports circulating in the United States that he would "not oppose U.S. bombings of communist targets within my frontiers." Your reference to "cherry-picking" btw is misleading and offensive. The issue was merely whether the facts reported were true, and Clymer confirmed them.
BTW, I never claimed to be an expert, I am merely replying to the a thread discussing reliable sources, the criteria for which does not change depending on the subject. As for Kiernan, I never check the backgrounds of scholars, because it is absolutely irrelevant to the factually accuracy of their writings. His article is reliable because it appear in Routledge's Century of Genocide, which is now in its third edition. That the editors, Samuel Totten and William S. Parsons chose indicates that it for the section on Cambodia shows that it is reliable. I notice you have no problem in accepting The History of the Vietnamese Economy (2005), published by the Institute of Economics of the Vietnam Academy of Social Sciences, which is a division of the Communist government of Vietnam. [39] It seems to me that you apply standards against writers when you disagree with he facts they report and in this case you made no effort to determine if the facts you were challenging were true.
TFD ( talk) 21:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Is rockforlife.org reliable for this edit? Two kinds of pork ( talk) 03:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Is Robert Parry's self-published, donation financed "Consortium News" website (with all of the relevant articles written by Parry himself) a reliable source for historical facts? The site is barely above the level of a blog, although Parry's past work as a journalist may give him some credibility (along with a strong conflict of interest). At the moment, "Consortium News" (and an editorial from the far-left advocacy group FAIR, also by Parry) are the primary sources used in October Surprise conspiracy theory. I'm hardly surprised that the article has been written entirely by editors who take everything Parry says extremely seriously; the resulting lack of neutrality is merely the collateral damage that comes inherent with a project like Wikipedia. No doubt the page requires mass deletions of unsourced content ("Bush provided several alibis that fell apart," with no source, when Secret Service logs show Bush engaged in a large number of appearances in the United States), as well as removal of useless external links like Rumor Mill News, and it should probably portray the delusional con man Ari Ben Menashe (whose inglorious career includes serving as chief witness in Robert Mugabe's farcical treason trial of the leader of the chief opposition party in Zimbabwe) in a less glowing light. But even granting that perhaps fringe theories are most written about by fringe theorists, is "Consortium News" a suitable source for Wikipedia at all? Keep in mind that Parry claims to have found a "Russian X-file" proving the October Surprise after he snuck into "a remote storage room on Capitol Hill," and that this is typical of his style. ( Here he talks about how he found Carter's "green-light" allowing Saddam to invade Iran, "which apparently had been left behind by accident in a remote Capitol Hill storage room". Certainly, none of his "well-placed official[s]" are sources we can check.) Also consider that "Consortium News" is often the sole source used to ascribe factual statements to important political figures, for example Yitzhak Shamir. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 15:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
After a brief review, there are several high quality sources on this subject.
Even if a case could be made that Robert Parry is a RS, his website isnt and the way the article looks now, Parry is responsible for the majority of the content which would seem to violate WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. WeldNeck ( talk) 14:48, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
On quick example of the issues with Parry's work. The following is directly from the article and sourced to Parry: "David Andelman, the official biographer of French spy chief Alexandre de Marenches, testified to the House investigation that de Marenches had told him that he had organised the Paris meeting.[19]". I can find no mention anywhere else outside of Parry or individuals who use Parry as a source that David Andelman testified to the House investigation or that deMarenches claimed to organize a meeting in Paris. If anyone has a copy or can obtain a copy of Andelman's The Fourth World War: Diplomacy and Espionage in the Age of Terrorism this could be positively verified but I wouldnt count on it. WeldNeck ( talk) 15:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
NB In case anyone cares, some of the consortiumnews articles were republished by truthout. [45]. Podiaebba ( talk) 02:19, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Some of Parry's criticisms of the report were published in January 1993 in The Nation. [47] Does that help any? I have no problem with avoiding use of consortiumnews when the same thing is published in a source others consider better. Podiaebba ( talk) 20:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Not to beat up on Podiaebba, who obviously has very strong feelings in favor of Robert Parry's professionalism and credibility, but he has tried to shoehorn Consortiumnews onto the Ghouta chemical attack page, with similar responses: Noticeboard and Talk as examples. Regardless of Parry's "amazing track record", the fact that his website is self-published and other red flags like it lending credence to fringe personalities and conspiracy theories really should be weighed when we're looking at whether to include it. I just don't think it rises to the level of a reliable source. - Kudzu1 ( talk) 05:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'm not sure everyone here was aware that Robert Parry was awarded a Polk Award for his reporting on Iran-Contra - a matter highly intertwined with October Surprise. One might think that this would be relevant for judging whether he's a reliable source on the subject. Podiaebba ( talk) 16:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Some editors are trying to remove mention of, and/or categories about, Rothbard as an historian [added later to clarify: or "economic historian" depending on source; he wrote both] despite the following sources from talk page mostly in format as others presented it; duplicates integrated where possible. (Pardon length: The talk page "Not a historian" section discussion is too long to ask you all to read through it.) Three editors keep arguing against these sources for reasons they can explain.
This sort of petty arguing about labels is one of the more pointless things Wikipedians do... but anyway, Rothbard seems to be a social scientist in a wide sense, active in a number of fields, including history, and on the basis of that plenty of good sources include "historian" in a list of things he is. It seems a bit absurd to crusade against that label as if using it had some major significance. It's a descriptive label with a fairly elastic meaning, not a stamp of approval or an academic degree! Podiaebba ( talk) 01:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi all, is Reddit is a reliable source? Specifically their AMA or ask me anything ? I ask because a Reddit AMA has been cited, twice, as a source at the Captain Phillips (film) article. The AMA is an online, interactive Q&A with, in one case, Hollywood director Paul Greengrass. However, the only 'proof' that it is supposedly him, is a picture of him sitting in front of a computer, on a third party image hosting site. Does anyone know more about this, and whether we accept this as an acceptable reference? Thanks - thewolfchild 02:34, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I would like to get the community's opinion on whether timeanddate.com can be considered a reliable source. Another user expressed their interest in using it to source various time zone statements in the articles, but I am not convinced this site qualifies (even though the information it contains is most likely to be accurate).
As per WP:RS, a reliable source is one that qualifies as a "third-party, published source[] with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Timeanddate.com is published by what looks like a private company whose only claim to fame is running this website, it does not say where the data come from, gives only vague assurances that its "employees are experienced and trained in their fields", and its list of accolades includes praises about the site's usability, features, and breadth of coverage but not on its accuracy. There is no "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" to speak of, and that's the most important aspect of a source that can be considered reliable.
An outside opinion on this would be much appreciated.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); November 15, 2013; 14:59 (UTC)
I am the other user that Ezhiki refers to above. Time and Date appears a reliable source to me, and it is mentioned in various sources. However, my query was a wider one, relating to the availability of English-language time zone sources in general, so it would be useful to have views on other such sites as well e.g. [53] [54] [55] [56], or indeed any other potentially reliable time zone sites you are aware of. Eldumpo ( talk) 16:16, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I am wondering if Vulture.com is a reliable source. I am not familiar with the source, and I immediately believe the source is questionable at best. The source is this one, and was added by an IP editor here. From regular news sources, I am not seeing anything about status downgrading of the injury from a stab to a severe scratch as the vulture source claims:
A Comic-Con attendee stabbed another near the eye with a pen Saturday after they got into an argument over whether one was sitting too close to the other, police said.
A stabbing Saturday night in a packed auditorium at the Comic-Con International pop culture convention temporarily brought the presentation of some of the most highly anticipated films to a halt.
A stabbing occurred today at Comic-Con in Hall H, the largest auditorium in the San Diego Convention Center.
-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 16:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Is Japanator.com reliable for manga and anime reviews?
I'm drawing from an archived project discussion.
Japanator has been interviewed by Anime3000 and Anime News Network's ANN Cast. Extremepro ( talk) 12:16, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I would appreciate comment on whether my view or Astynax's is the more correct interpretation of Wikipedia policy, as reflected in our exchange at Talk:List_of_new_religious_movements#EST
Thank you. DaveApter ( talk) 17:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
This discussion just emphasizes how useless the primary/distinction is for basing policy on. The boundary divides too many different things at different places and has very poor correlation with either verifiability or reliability. Zero talk 10:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you all for your extremely helpful comments to clarify the general issues. It would indeed be helpful to get some feedback on the specific case from non-involved editors if anyone has the patience to trawl through the discussion at Talk:List_of_new_religious_movements. The situation as I see it is as follows: Astynax has a strong desire to have Erhard Seminar Training (est) included in that list. I (and several other editors) feel strongly that this is inappropriate as it was a personal development training scheme which was offered between 1974 and 1984, and was neither religious nor a movement as these words would normally be understood. Astynax argues that several authors have described it as a NRM and this is definitive, despite the fact that several other authors have stated clearly that it is not. Those who have referred to est as a NRM generally have not provided any references to primary sources elsewhere to back up their categorisation, or have merely mentioned it in passing, or have referred to it with explicit qualifications. Astynax has also claimed that the expression 'New religious movement' is a specialised term used by academics in some way other than the meaning of the words in everyday language, although he is unable or unwilling to say what this specialised meaning might be or to point to any reliable source to back up this assertion. Astynax has also modified the lead to the List of new religious movements to better accommodate his interpretation in a manner that seems to me to violate Wikipedia:Lists_(stand-alone_lists)#Selection_criteria. Thank you. DaveApter ( talk) 12:54, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure if this is the best place to ask this question but here goes anyway. The article Jezebel which I went to a lot of trouble to re-write and improve as it had been in a very poor state for years, has a list at the end "In popular culture" which grows longer and longer with editors adding unsourced and, it seems to me, unverifiable information such as somebody called a hurricane "Jezebel" in some movie, a character in a video game has "Jezebel" as a first name, there is a long list of pop songs called "Jezebel". How does anybody know that any of this stuff is even accurate if it is OK just to stick in such bits of trivia with no source? My inclination is to delete all of it except what is cited to a verifiable source, but is that an OK thing to do? Or would it be better to move it all into another article "Jezebel in popular culture"? but I still don't see how it is OK to have an article consisting of a list of unsourced tidbits of trivia. Thanks, Smeat75 ( talk) 18:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Jesús Huerta de Soto article. Can sentence Former European Central Bank director Jean-Claude Trichet wrote that Huerta de Soto’s Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles "is indeed a remarkably stimulating and thought provoking summa." be used in a "reception" section with ref being Jesús Huerta de Soto, Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles, 2012, 3rd Edition, Back cover quotation. I put it in because couple past WP:RSN discussions said that unless there was evidence the quote was fabricated it could be used. I saw several non-RS mentions of it but could not find original quote. (Perhaps they sent him the book? don't know.) Thanks. CM-DC talk 18:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Can someone tell me, is the RT network (formerly Russia Today) a reliable source? I ask because some editors use it and I would happily do so for some things but I always thought the state-owned nature and the existing dislike of the network in established quarters may have dampened its "reliability" on Wikipedia. Can someone please confirm the verdict as I don't know where to look. Thanks.
Also - concerning blogs and material considered non-RS (not forums), are these ok to add on articles as external links? Provided of course no content is drawn from the source in question. Any thoughts? -- Zavtek ( talk) 14:29, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Just want to point out that RT has been brought up several times on this board - you can find them on the archives. Here is a list
My takeaway from all that, is that RT is probably fine for simple facts ("there was a plane crash on Oct 3..") as it is a news org with editors and fact checking, but that it should not be considered a RS for anything controversial. Jytdog ( talk) 18:25, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Steven Hassan is a self-described "cult expert" who has self-published three books on the topic of "cults". The title is largely a marketing term, as he isn't held as an expert by published cult researchers, and his testimony as an expert has been rejected from a court case in the past (see Kendall vs. Kendall).
In the article, the term re-appears in the sidebar, backed by two references - one by the New York Magazine
"Data Mind Games". New York Magazine (New York Media Holdings). July 29, 1996. p. 52.
Jump up ^ "Ex-Moonie says cult groups are preying on russians; Analyst sees Ex communists as easy targets". The Globe (The Globe Newspaper Company). November 22, 1992. p. 9.
and one by The Globe.
"Ex-Moonie says cult groups are preying on russians; Analyst sees Ex communists as easy targets". The Globe (The Globe Newspaper Company). November 22, 1992. p. 9
"Cult expert" is an extraordinary claim, and one that researchers in the area do not agree with, with Michael Langone, David Clark, Carol Giambalvo, Noel Giambalvo and Kevin Garvy expressing their wariness about his methods. (Recovery from Cults, Michael Langone (ed), 1993, New York: W.W. Norton and Company, ISBN 0-393-70164-6, p. 173-177)
So the claim is clearly an extraordinary one, and one that doesn't appear shared amongst others in the anti-cult movement. The media isn't qualified to make the distinction, and therefore the sources provided are not reliable in context to establish that Hassan is a "cult expert". Academic sources by researchers in the same field are required. Zambelo ( talk) 08:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
The first, Chalcraft, David J. (2011). "Jews for Jesus: Occupying Jewish Time and Space". In Stern, Sacha. Sects and Sectarianism in Jewish History. Leiden: BRILL. pp. 220–221
refers only to Hassan as a "cult expert" when it quotes the Globe article
“when the Boston Globe reported the story, they quoted cult expert Steve Hassan (executive of the US anti-cult Freedom of Mind Centre
the second is written by a business writer, Kathryn A Jones.
An expert is defined by peers in the same area of study. An extraordinary claim such as this demands reliable sources per WP:RS. Zambelo ( talk) 22:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
AnonNep, I'm asking whether the title "cult expert" is neutral, given that no published cult researcher, academic or court has given him this title, and that it is a self-given label that is more of a marketing tool than anything else. Cult researchers have questioned his methods and findings. At best I think he should be described as "cult couselor" as per his profession, and then the assertion of "cult expert" should be included within the article and formulated "Steven Hassan has been referred to as a "cult expert" ". Zambelo ( talk) 22:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
(ec)Chalcraft clearly is not making a distinction apart from his sourcing the term to the Boston Globe article which is not exactly a source strongly regarded for such valuations. The term was specifically in reference to the rest of that section ... where it is clear that Hassan wrote a letter to the paper saying he had been "misquoted" making the claims in that article pretty much useless as far as deeming him an "expert" is concerned. The Amway bit states that MLMs are cults in collusion with the FTC and the Republican Party -- dare I say "conspiracy theorist"? Hassan was mostly cited as favouring legislation signed by President Obama. I rather think that if one does not agree with Obama, that does not make them a "cult." The author has no scientific background whatsoever to deem anything a cult, or anyone a "cult expert." In short, neither source presented is sufficient to make the contentious claim that Hassan is deemed a "cult expert". You need sources written by folks remotely knowledgeable in the field of cults. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 23:09, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Reliable Sources are context-specific. (see Reliability in specific contexts - Biographies of living persons). Accordingly a reliable source, especially for an extraordinary claim, must be strong enough to support the claim.
Also see the section on Academic consensus, in particular regarding blanket statements. Also see WP:RSOPINION.
Stating that Hassan is a "cult expert" is a non-neutral blanket statement, and doesn't support or allow for other viewpoints on the matter A neutral title should be chosen (counselor, per his degree) and the matter of whether he is considered an expert or not should appear in the article body with sources for and against this claim.
Sources should be strong, therefore from academic sources in the same community of practice (ie. academic writings about "cults"). Zambelo ( talk) 23:34, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
It'll do. Although this is still far from objective, since he follows his own definition of what constitutes a cult, and has created his own lists. Zambelo ( talk) 02:57, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Is this article a reliable source for the statement of fact:
In 2008, the John William Pope Foundation provided more than 80% of the total budget for each of five leading conservative non-profits in North Carolina.
The relevant quote from the article is
Facing South looked at five of North Carolina's most influential conservative research, advocacy and legal groups -- many of which Art Pope created, or helped create: Capitol Monitor, The John W. Pope Civitas Institute (named after Art Pope's father), the John Locke Foundation, the North Carolina Institute for Constitutional Law and the Pope Center for Higher Education Policy.
Tax records show that Art Pope sits on the board of directors of all but one of the groups, which by law confers a high degree of power to Pope in managing operations, setting policy, and approving their annual budgets.
Most crucially, Pope supplies at least 80 percent -- and in some cases, nearly all -- of the operating budgets of the groups, a level of purse-string power so dominant that the Internal Revenue Service classifies all but one of them as a "private foundation," a relatively rare designation used only by non-profits who disproportionately rely on a single benefactor.
The source is The Institute for Southern Studies, a non-profit media and research center, which has run a number of pieces on Art Pope's political engagements. Research on this topic by the Institute for Southern Studies has been used in articles by a number of news outlets including The New Yorker and The News and Observer a13ean ( talk) 21:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
The source appears to have the byline at the bottom, and is written by Chris Kromm, who according to [57] is the executive editor and publisher of the Institute for Southern Studies. The institute's mission has a strong political bent according to [58]:
The Institute draws attention to the national importance of the South and offers an exciting vision of the region-a place brimming with a capacity for progressive change that challenges its reputation as a monolithic, conservative stronghold. Throughout our history, the Institute has maintained a strong commitment to developing research and publication projects that directly support grassroots organizing, especially efforts for corporate and government accountability.
MastCell is correct to observe that the organization has won awards for journalism and seems to be well regarded for its research and investigations. The tone of the piece itself is quite dispassionate: a blend of facts and analysis but no evident editorializing. The statement in the WP article that the source is intended to support is a concise summary of the facts presented in the piece, and the only part subject to interpretation is the adjective "leading". While caution is merited in general when relying on agenda-driven journalism (from whatever political angle), in this case the reputation of the publisher, the tone of the piece, and the article text it supports all combine to satisfy the determination of reliability. I demur somewhat on the basis of being unable to determine whether the piece (or any of the institute's pieces) is fact-checked, but the publisher's history of journalism awards is a reasonable indicator that they aren't irresponsible in that respect. I say reliable. alanyst 06:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
The Perth Group website is a dissident (or "denialist") HIV/AIDS web which main claim is that the existence of the HIV virus is not proven. I think the next text which describes who belongs to that group here should be a reliable source :
The Perth Group ... The three original members are the leader, biophysicist Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, emergency physician Valendar F Turner and Professor of Pathology John Papadimitriou. Over the years several other scientists have contributed to or joined the Group. These are physicists Bruce Hedland-Thomas, David Causer and Barry Page, Florida USA biochemist Todd Miller and Colombian physician/medical researcher Helman Alfonso.
I think a sufficient condition to consider that text as reliable would be to show the people responsible of the web are certainly Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos and her colleagues, because if that is the case, with the text they would be simply speaking of themselves.
In this site (not a dissident site), it can be read:
the HIV “dissidents” led the way, with Valendar Turner and Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos of the Perth group taking the stand, giving a link to The Perth Group web.
In this site (an official HIV/AIDS web), it can be read:
the Perth Group of medical scientists and physicians from Australia. The Perth Group (led by Eleni Papadopulos); A small band of Australian scientists and physicians; The Perth Group appears to have only two active members: a medical physicist called Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos and an emergency physician called Valendar Turner; and it's given a link to The Perth Group web as a reference (see below, references 3 and 40)
And there are several other dissident sites in which it's acknowledged The Perth Group web are certainly Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos and her colleagues. For example here, in which it's written exactly all the text under evaluation, and a link to The Perth Group web.
The article which would be affected is the HIV/AIDS denialism article. The text "Eleni Papadopulos et al." would be substituted by The Perth Group, which is a Wikipedia article.
Peter the Roman, -- 2.136.95.135 ( talk) 19:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
The first reference is to what seems to be a forum post [59] at MIT BBS. I used Chrome to get a translation of the entire page which starts "Sender: lzmm (people do not make me, I do not prisoners), the letter area: Military Title: China and the East Asian descent ---- DNA data zz " - looks like data from the " Origin of Chinese Civilization Project". The second source is a peer reviewed paper [60] used for "Among Guangzhou Genetic evidence shows evidence of Caucasian maternal mtDNA in Guangzhou. Yao Yonggang et al. reported that Kivisild detected one W mtDNA out of 69 Guangzhou Cantonese population (1.44%), an common Middle Easterner and Iranian marker [35] with a slight difference to other Cantonese." The paper doesn't use the words 'Caucasian', 'Iranian' or 'Middle Easterner'. When I removed it the first time it was replaced by the IP who added it with the edit summary "Editing a genetic paper.mitbbs for 中国各地DNA数据. This is a popular study edited in many Chinese wikipedia. The other is a Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial study in Guangzhou with a mtDNA W marker". I deleted it again and it was replaced with an edit summary saying " Please do not remove this popular Chinese editted on Chinese wiki. The other is also a Chinese study that proves persian presense in guangzhiou". Dougweller ( talk) 10:36, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
From Huangzhou science university
Iranian marker from the middle east
Haplogroup W (mtDNA) is found in only Caucasoid in significant frequencies especially many Middle eastern/West Asian Iranic groups. It's found in the ethnic Iranian Kurds from Persia/Iran who have 10% mtDNA W Quintana-Murci et al. 2004,and in the Zoroastrian of Iran also known as the Parsi who now lives in India and Iran, they have 17.9% of mtDNA W although their population is less than a 100,000 but they have migrated everywhere. Svan population a Caucasus/West Asian Iranic ethnic group is found 8.3%. This strongly proves the theory that Persians did migrated to Guangzhou and contributed their DNA.
Although mtDNA is also found quite signficant in Europe there is no way this mtDNA W Caucasian marker in Guangzhou came from Europeans
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-W-map.png
The maximum frequencies of W are observed in Finland (9.6%), Hungary (5.2%), Latvia (4.1%), Macedonia (4%) and Belarus (3.7%, but over 5% if we exclude the south). The Finns and the Hungarians are both speakers of an Uralic language, which would imply an Uralic connection with haplogroup W. However other Uralic people have much less and often no W at all. For example the Saami have only 1% and the Udmurts 0%.
Regional hotspots in Catalonia, Brittany-Normandy and Ireland mirror those in the same regions for U5 and V, which are also typical of Finland and Karelia. It's hard to see how all these regions could be connected historically, unless all of them share a common Mesolithic ancestry.
Haplogroup W is also well represented among some ethnicities of the North Caucasus, such as the Karachay-Balkars (8.1%), Avars (8.1%), Adyghe-Kabardin (5.2%), three peoples who also share nearly 5% of haplogroup X.
Outside Europe, haplogroup W is also found at high frequencies among the Tajiks (6.2%), around 1.5% among the Uzbeks, Turkmens and Kazakhs, and at trace frequencies (< 0.5%) among many North Asian ethnic groups (Tuva, Yakuts, Buryats, Mongolians, Koreans, Japanese). The most likely explanation is that W was a minor lineage of the Indo-Europeans. A founder effect in the female Indo-European population could explain their oddly elevated frequency of W.
92.236.36.173 ( talk) 8:03, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
A bona fide forum post on a internet portal site (anyone else tries to state otherwise are either legally blind or tries to deceive other editor's lack of language skill)...the author might as well be Albert Einstein and there wouldn't be a snow ball's chance in hell this source can be used as reliable scientific literature. And yes, I am a native Chinese speaker. Jim101 ( talk) 18:08, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
中华文明探源工程初步结果----DNA数据
Zanhe, I sincerely hope you double check next time before making such claims it's not forum. It is a genetic article not a forum because if it was a forum it would have mentioned it on the address bar and comment box would have been given. What about Baidu/Wiki? it clearly mentions the source here and you can't edit the source unless you locked in.
Isn't this reliable enough? SOURCE ------->
http://www.baike.com/wiki/%E3%80%8A%E4%BA%BA%E5%8F%A3%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6%E3%80%8B ???
I HOPE TO GOD YOU USE YOUR NATIVE CHINESE READING SKILLS AND READ THIS
Population research 2010
> http://tupian.baike.com/a0_32_85_01300001156138130584852795988_jpg.html
Another source shows Guangdong Han have 68% Han Chinese paternal DNA but only 15% maternal Han Chinese DNA which is also very close to the original study.
As for the second source. Why must the paper mention Caucasian? would you prefer they mention Mongoloid. How much intelligence does it take to figure out mtDNA W is a Caucasian marker? it doesn't take a genius to understand
Haplogroup W (mtDNA) is a Caucasian marker because is dominant in Iranic speaking and Indo-European people. Unless you're telling me Europeans, Iranians and Kurds are not Caucasians. Why such a lack of commonsense?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/
92.236.36.173 ( talk)10:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
In her book, Alice writes some things about what her philosophical arch-enemy Bob said to her. We don't have any statements from Bob regarding his side of the story. Charlie, writing in a reliable-source newspaper, mentions what Alice said about Bob.
Does the fact that Charlie relayed what Alice wrote about Bob make it suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia? An editor is claiming that, even though we don't have Bob's side, Wikipedia should nonetheless state Alice's side, because Charlie reported it in a reliable source. Bob is a famous individual. vzaak ( talk) 01:16, 19 November 2013 (UTC)