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There is a dispute as to if the inclusion of a comparison to Likud's platform to the Hamas charter at Hamas. The difference in views can be seen in this diff. The sources used to justify are for comparing to Likud, to Gush Emunim and Likud. The last source, while discussing extreme religious views in charters or platforms that are often cited but just as often ignored by the politicians, gives quotes from the Hamas charter and then gives quotes from the Likud charter, with both quotes laying claim to all of historic Palestine (the river to the sea maximalist position on either side). Is it SYNTH to say that both Likud and Hamas' charter/platform make the same claim to all of Palestine based on these sources? nableezy - 19:46, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Falconfly, who has a history of making claims not supported by the sources he cites (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Falconfly), has repeatedly edited pages relating to Volaticotherini with references to his pet hypothesis that volaticotheres were capable of powered flight. In particular, he has posted reconstructions of three taxa, Argentoconodon, Ichthyoconodon, and Triconolestes with fully-developed wings. All published sources on Volaticotherium and Argentoconodon have consistently referred to them as gliders similar to flying squirrels, incapable of powered flight, and reconstructed them as such. There is also a somewhat grayer area regarding whether a source refuted an older source adequately. Ornithopsis ( talk) 12:06, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Can you point to a peer-reviewed scientific article clearly and explicitly stating that volaticotheres were or could have been capable of powered flight? If not, it's WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, period. If you feel the case is strong for this, then write it up and submit it to a paleontology journal; it's easy. But until then, unless you can directly attribute this claim to a paper (not abstract, definitely not website), it can't be included. HCA ( talk) 18:08, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Can someone please ROLLBACK the edits by User:36.83.144.248 (I don't know how to use that option). All his or her edits are about adding unsourced categories regarding ethnicities, which, again have no reliable sourcing or even foundation (see (see [5]). I warned the IP on his or her talk page. Thanks. Quis separabit? 19:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
The original text written by Antun Vrančić is in Latin, and the translation below is made by Ioan-Aurel Pop {in his work Religiones and Nationes in Transylvania during the 16th Century):
[Transylvania] is inhabited by three nations, Szeklers, Hungarians, Saxons; still, I would also include the Romanians, who are easily equal in number [to the others] but have no liberties, no nobility, no rights of their own, with the exception of a small number who live in the district of Haţeg, where Deceballus is believed to have had his capital, and who were ennobled during the reign of John Hunyadi, a native of those parts, because they relentlessly fought against the Turks
According to the interpretation of some fellow editors, this can be expressed by the following percentages:
These data can be found at History_of_Transylvania#Historical_population. Is this interpretation good? 123Steller ( talk) 15:24, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
The Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations article has been notified of a potential WP:SYNTH issue in what is now the Observations of behavioral patterns section. The content at the talk page discussion is quite long. So, I've summarized what I think is the current state of the issue - because some things have changed since the initial post. You will get the perspective of Rrburke, though, quite clearly when you read it, he or she is quite articulate.
References
Your insight and guidance would be much appreciated!-- CaroleHenson (talk) 02:52, 17 October 2016 (UTC) wrong with this posting? Something that needs to be done to help the watchers of this page look at the issue? Thanks!-- CaroleHenson (talk) 01:47, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
See for example List of terrorist incidents, 2016 and a brief discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents, 2016 and a longer discussion at User talk:JBergsma1#WP:NOR violations. Without reliable sources confirming that these are actual terrorist incidents, the lists are original research - and worse, the readers can't tell which is which. There's obviously the RS question of sources, but for terrorism we normally look for official sources. Pinging those involved in the discussion, @ NewsAndEventsGuy, Drmies, JBergsma1, EvergreenFir, and Parsley Man:. I wish we had a board that combined RS/NOR/NPOV. Doug Weller talk 15:55, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Shooting of James Boyd ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I would like to request some outside help with the above article. The core issue as I see it is original research. To set the background, this was a very controversial shooting in a town with a history of police violence, and which triggered a finding by the state attorney general that the police department brought charges against the district attorney "for political purposese" after she filed charged against the police officers who shot him.
Much of the secondary source coverage deals with lapel video -- whether or not Boyd was turning when shot, whether or not this meant he was surrendering, etc. Furthermore most of the coverage was provided by a television station, which live streamed the trial.
The most important question is how to handle the differing transcriptions. A key piece of evidence is what exactly one of the shooters meant when he said "this fucking lunatic? I am going to shoot him in the penis with a beanbag shotgun here in a minute." Or possibly "in the pecker" as some testified at trial, although I am not certain whether this is a difference in transcription or recollection. A state police officer also said under oath that the shooter, APD Detective Keith Sandy, said "with a beanbag shotgun" but I just don't hear that, though the officer had with him a beanbag shotgun and a Taser shotgun, so it is possible that this is what he meant and the other officer understood. What Sandy actually shot him with was a rifle, which may have escaped the notice of some of the people protesting this death not being called a first-degree murder. I don't really care which gets used; the significance to me was that it was said before the officer made contact with him.
I have an opinion about this shooting, which I have stated on the talk page, but my primary goal is accuracy in the Wikipedia article. The other editor who has been working on this article says the same, but his definition of accuracy seem to me to be "validating the opinion that of course the officers did nothing wrong." It seems more complicated than that to me -- these officers seem to have received training contrary to their SOP manual; what are we to make of that? We can't just revert to secondary sources only as we both agree that several of them are wrong, including the initial Associated Press account.
So. I would like some help, please, in sorting this out. I am not going to mention names here as this question is really what *are* we supposed to do, and I may yet need to do an ANI or NPOV report on an editor, so I would like to keep the matters separate. Thanks for any input. Elinruby ( talk) 21:04, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
in 2014 or 2015.It happened in the trial, which was this year. The links to all of this are in the Article. Beanyandcecil ( talk) 03:54, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
conceivabl[e that someone] might identify him.
... we understand that you don't think anyone who hasn't been law enforcement has a right to question these events.Actually I think that anyone, no matter what their background, has the right to critique these events. But when there's a disagreement as to what something means or why something was done, the opinion of the civilian (meaning someone who is not or was not LE and educated, trained and experienced with these matters) matters little, if at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They are not entitled to their own facts. For example, when Boyd turned (which the prosecution interprets as him surrendering) LEOs who know about such things, know that this is not a show of surrender, by any stretch of the imagination. He's not being commanded to turn or to get down on the ground. He is being told to FIRST "drop the knives." AFTER THAT, will come orders for him to move away from them, and THEN to get down on the ground. So anyone is welcome to think that he was surrendering, but LEOs know that he was not.
I think he was probably trying to explain a policy to you that really does exist.I'm well aware of the policy and don't deny that it exists. But what I did does not rise to the level of a violation of that policy. First, HE made the information public, not me. Second, THERE IS NO PERSONAL INFORMATION (required to be a violation of the Wiki Policy) anywhere in the statement. In fact HE IS BEING UNREASONABLE in his demand that I remove the information. More than likely had he approached me in a polite and professional manner, had he continued to contribute to the editing of the article and responded to my questions, I'd have removed it. But given his behavior, I won't take it down. Beanyandcecil ( talk) 01:03, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
But that dispute is another matter, not under consideration here. I'm only concerned with his refusal to discuss the article and his continued reversion of it to remove my description of the knife.
Beanyandcecil ( talk) 15:09, 14 October 2016 (UTC)"primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them."
And supposing I agreed with you it would still be a primary source, ie not preferred.
We discussed primary vs secondary and agreed that there are contradictory statements, acoounts and transcriptions, right?
But the problem with primary sources is interpretation and this is where we run into these issues:
- what exactly did Sandy said to Ware? I think it is *possible* that he *meant* Taser shotgun but this is an interpretation. He didn't *say* it. It may be obvious to someone of a certain background, ie you and the state police officer that this is what he meant. But I don't think we should insert words into a quote based on what we think Sandy meant, especially not a quote that is the rationale for all the "murder" analyses going around.
The fact is, he had less-lethal weapons and a rifle. We agreed on that, right? So there is no need for saying APD "murdered" anyone and also no proof, right?
Did Perez say Booyah after he shot Boyd? If so... well. The tape this is on is the one from Perez' heltmet cam, or at least that is what the headline says.(ref coming shortly)
In fact, as far as I know, there are no helmet cams at APD
Taser cameras come with cloud storage, while the old systems had to be downloaded to an external hard drive and the officers were tasked with doing this. Compliance was unsurprisingly poor.
Certain officers, however, were developing a pattern of serial use of violence incidents, in most of which their cameras "malfunctioned" or were not turned on. This isn't me saying this, this is DoJ and any number of RS news stories about how Albuquerque comes to have more police violence than New York or LA.
Anyway, there are discrepancies in this equipment story, but getting back to Perez. Based on volume it sounds like him (defense equipment expert said the loudest voice is the person wearing the camera).
The file played in court has this sound captioned (inaudible) but ok, it could be "oo ya", to me. One theory, not a reliable source, was that it was possibly "pshaw" and this is sometimes used with dogs. I am not going to look for a better source on "pshaw" because I don't believe it.
But do you see the problem? We are arguing about *interpretation* -- and wikipedia doesn't deal in unsupported opining, no matter how expert it might be. This policy does, we agreed, lead to weird stuff. Cited quotes, expert opinons, get deleted because they aren't CNN. I know, I know. But this might be weirder. All I know to do in this article is just keep hanging references on stuff. Eventually there will be too many and we can delete some of thrmand stop arguing about this because we convinced one another. Theoretically.
Please see the passage below:
In 1999 Lind led the creation of an hour-long program entitled "Political Correctness: The Frankfurt School". [1] Some of Lind's content went on to be reproduced by James Jaeger in his YouTube film "CULTURAL MARXISM: The Corruption of America" in which a quote from Pat Buchanan's The Death of the West is attributed to Herbert Marcuse. [2] [3] [4] The intellectual historian Martin Jay commented on this phenomenon saying that Lind's original documentary:
"... spawned a number of condensed textual versions, which were reproduced on a number of radical right-wing sites. These in turn led to a welter of new videos now available on YouTube, which feature an odd cast of pseudo-experts regurgitating exactly the same line. The message is numbingly simplistic: all the ills of modern American culture, from feminism, affirmative action, sexual liberation and gay rights to the decay of traditional education and even environmentalism are ultimately attributable to the insidious influence of the members of the Institute for Social Research who came to America in the 1930's." [1]
References
OK. So it is indeed true, that the Jaeger video attributes something to Marcuse, that is actually Pat Buchanan's summary of his own view of "Cultural Marxism". For example the video attributes the following quote to Marcuse: "Western societies are history’s greatest repositories of racism, sexism, nativism, xenophobia, homophobia, anti-Semitism fascism, and Nazism". But this is quote right out of Buchanan's book Death of the West, on page 80, where Buchanan is describing Cultural Marxism in his own words. Others opposing "Cultural Marxism" correctly attribute this quote to Buchanan. See for example: Gordon, David (14 June 2002). "The Folly of National Unity". Mises Institute., and also Ellis, Claire (26 June 2014). "The Socialist-Capitalist Alliance: the Fabian Society, the Frankfurt School, and Big Business: Part II". Council of European Canadians.
The problem for me is that no reliable source identifies the misattribution (it is definitely true). User:Jobrot believes this is a WP:BLUESKY, simple factual thing, and justifies the use of reference #2 above, under WP:PARITY. In my view that youtube video is an SPS and not valid, and the phrase, "in which a quote from Pat Buchanan's The Death of the West is attributed to Herbert Marcuse" is OR supported by a poor source.
So the questions is - is the above OK per BLUESKY or is this OR? Jytdog ( talk) 05:45, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
So far this discussion seems to mostly contain editors who are already entrenched in the dispute. With
Zero
talk being the only new editor to chime in.
I'd remind everyone that
WP:WL warns against:
...and I believe we have a loose consensus that they're most likely Buchanan's words (and that to ask for proof of a non-existent Marcuse quote doesn't really make sense given the circumstantial evidence). I think within the WP:RS hierarchy Buchanan's book rates higher than Jaegers independent youtube film (as well as pre-dating the film by a decade). So I think the current wording of 'attributes' is a good compromise, as long as it's not changed back to 'misattributes' or 'incorrectly attributes' (which I've gone back and forth on before, and I now admit the previous wording comes closer to WP:SYNTH). But I think the current wording is fine.
I would definitely like to hear from uninvolved editors on this issue. -- Jobrot ( talk) 07:14, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
"If proper attribution cannot be found among reliable sources of an idea's standing, it should be assumed that the idea has not received consideration or acceptance; ideas should not be portrayed as accepted unless such claims can be documented in reliable sources."
"Synthesis of published material" says, "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources."
Taking a passage where someone is quoting someone and comparing it with the original quote and concluding that it was wrongly quoted is synthesis because neither of the two sources say it was wrongly quoted.
Your argument against following the policy is that Wikipedia should be edifying. However, it has always been its position that information facts and opinions not reported in reliable sources should not be put into articles. That means we're leaving out lots of information about novel theories by editors, new bands, new companies, etc. And nothing that reliable sources do not mention are not important enough to include in articles.
TFD ( talk) 16:24, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello folks. Right now we've got an article called list of cryptids. The article itself is a total mess and is a relic of an era in which cryptoozologists had free reign on Wikipedia.
Recently another article was merged into it, a result of an ongoing effort to clean up the huge mess the cryptozoologists left behind from that era. However, what remains on this article is a mass of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. (To dispel any confusion, cryptozoology is a classic pseudoscience on par with, say, flat earth theory or ghost hunting and shouldn't be confused with biology or folkloristics.)
Anyway, there are a lot of dubious claims going on there that stink of original research. Please see the talk page for discussion. Thanks! :bloodofox: ( talk) 01:08, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding req.attention to edits. The thread is Editor on a mission: folkloristics vs cryptozoology. TeeVeeed ( talk) 13:57, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Some administrative units are known by several names. E.g. some sources say about Pozsony County and other about Pressburg County (the same county).
If the first source contains a sentence "Nyitra County shared borders with Pozsony County" and the second uses the name Pressburg (but does not mention a neighborhood), is the following sentence original research and synthesis of published material?
"Nyitra County shared borders with Pozsony (Pressburg) County" Ditinili ( talk) 18:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi, in my best estimation the short article 'agnostic theism' I nominated for deletion is a neologism founded on a synthesis of agnosticism and atheism. When I nominated it I didn't expect opposition, there is opposition that doesn't seem to understand the OR objection. An opinion might be helpful. If I'm wrong, I'll withdraw the deletion nomination. The opinion of a knowledgeable 'OR' perspective may be helpful.
Thanks in advance. KSci (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
I reverted these edits to Anti-Indian sentiment that to me appear to be original research and a change in pov not supported by the sources, and appear to fall under general sanctions. Could someone review the edits? -- Ronz ( talk) 16:45, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi We have a discussion for deletion here and no admin has taken action yet. The article itself is OR purely and clearly. The 2 editors creating/editing it are clearly not neutral and motivated with Kurdish nationalist ideas. Many other articles related to the so called "rojava" are the same and are created and persistently maintained in their current biased form by the same users who have been edit-warring to deleted any neutral edit. Please take a look at Human rights in Rojava for example, to see how it sounds like utopia (pure propaganda for a certain political party). Thanks. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم ( talk) 05:17, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
The mentioned article is original research cause it recruit sources that do not mention the invented region called shahba, making it look like a real historic region with historical recognition even though its just a result of the syrian war where different parties gain and lose lands everyday and this region was born because the YPG took control of it and can go out of the face of earth if another force took over it.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 20:07, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
To what degree the results of Google Ngram Viewer are allowed to support statements in wikipedia articles?
See Talk:Soft skills/Archives/2016#"First documented usage" where this question arose. Staszek Lem ( talk) 01:19, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
What do folks think about the following, which is being proposed at the Felodipine article? It is a chart of annual sales, constructed from the company's annual reports.
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
References
Never seen anyone do this before. Is this OR? Kind of interesting. Thoughts? Jytdog ( talk) 00:38, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello all. I wish to know if the source in the title could be reliable considering its age. The author is Tamás Lajos - (the link is to the Hungarian Wikipedia article about him); the book is referred here: /info/en/?search=History_of_Transylvania#cite_note-60 . 123Steller ( talk) 23:19, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
There is Original Research being placed in the United States presidential election, 2016 article by Gsonnenf concerning Voter Turnout. It needs to be removed immediately. It is false and it is not supported by a reliable source and Gsonnenf is falsely claiming that the number Gsonnenf is making up is supported by the leading expert in the field, when it isn't.
Election Day may be over but the counting of the votes has not finished. There are still about 4 million or so votes to be counted.
Various editors have been asking that Voter Turnout not be placed into the article until ALL of the votes have been counted because--all of the experts (including Dr. Michael McDonald, Associate Professor at the Univ of Florida Political Science Dept and principal at the United States Elections Project)--have stated that no one can determine Voter Turnout until all of the votes are counted.
However, Gsonnenf has taken it upon himself to decide the true number of votes and to decide the number of eligible voters and calculate the Voter Turnout on his own--even though he is merely a Wikipedia editor and is not an expert. This is original research. Especially since the people that specialize in it--such as Dr. Michael McDonald--say that it cannot be determined until all of the votes are counted and McDonald is reporting a different, higher number.
Gsonnenf keeps reverting other editors and jamming into the article's infobox his original research number. This violates Wikipedia in all kinds of ways. Gsonnenf claims that his edits have the consensus of the talk page and that could not be further from the truth. He was involved in a discussion and he did not like the direction the discussion was going and just decided the consensus went his way and now he says his edit are the consensus over and over again--even though that claim is not true.
Gsonnenf edited article to state that Voting Turnout is 53.7%. You can see his edit here: Gsonnenf's false claim that U.S. Elections Project reports 53.7% Voter Turnout. The fact is that Dr. McDonald has claimed publicly that he believes the Voter Turnout is NOT finalized but it should be about 58%--not Gsonnenf's made up 53.7%. Please see Dr. McDonald's 58% Voter Turnout Estimate here: On November 14, 2016, Dr. Michael McDonald stated 58%--not the false number Gsonnenf uses
When you compare Gsonnenf's made up number (and he is NOT an expert, just a Wikipedia editor) with the number that has been posted by Dr. McDonald on his Twitter account, you can easily see that Gsonnenf is engaging in original research--which is verifiably incorrect and Gsonnenf is flat out making up a number and then--to put the icing on the cake--he cites Dr. McDonald, saying that Dr. McDonald supports the false 53.7% number. Dr. McDonald does not support any such thing.-- ML ( talk) 17:29, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Ir seems to me that the article linked above has a plethora of Original research. Its principal writer has asked for a Peer review. BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 17:11, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Nor do I recall anyone ever claiming we can't use court decisions as sources. This has never been a problem on other articles I've worked on. Daniel Case ( talk) 16:00, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Where I used it as the major source was the section on the appeal itself and the court's decision, in which case the decision is the subject of that section and so I think there's wider latitude for relying on it. Daniel Case ( talk) 16:15, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Might as well go back-to-back here.
The question to the community is - is the inclusion of content about biotech in the Silicon Alley article WP:OR?
OK, so the following content is in the Silicon Alley article:
The biotechnology sector is also growing in Silicon Alley, based upon the region's strength in academic scientific research and public and commercial financial support. On December 19, 2011, then Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg announced his choice of Cornell University and Technion-Israel Institute of Technology to build a US$2 billion graduate school of applied sciences on Roosevelt Island, with the goal of transforming New York City into the world's premier technology capital. [1] [2] By mid-2014, Accelerator, a biotech investment firm, had raised more than US$30 million from investors, including Eli Lilly and Company, Pfizer, and Johnson & Johnson, for initial funding to create biotechnology startups at the Alexandria Center for Life Science, which encompasses more than 700,000 square feet (65,000 m2) * on East 29th Street and promotes collaboration among scientists and entrepreneurs at the center and with nearby academic, medical, and research institutions. The New York City Economic Development Corporation's Early Stage Life Sciences Funding Initiative and venture capital partners, including Celgene, General Electric Ventures, and Eli Lilly, committed a minimum of US$100 million to help launch 15 to 20 ventures in life sciences and biotechnology. [3]
References
Right. So, in New York City, "Silicon Ally" is parallel to, you know, Silicon Valley. Computer industry -- digital media, apps, etc. Information technology. For short, the "tech industry". Which is =/= biotech.
Looking at the refs used above:
I edited the above to read as follows, taking out the biotech:
The New York City government has worked to support the tech sector. On December 19, 2011, then Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg announced his choice of Cornell University and Technion-Israel Institute of Technology to build a US$2 billion graduate school of applied sciences on Roosevelt Island, with the goal of transforming New York City into the world's premier technology capital. [1] [2]
References
That was reverted by User:Castncoot, and i have asked them why they included biotech in this article, and they just keep writing stuff like this, in which they say that "biotechnology" includes "technology" (it is applied biology) so of course biotech is part of the "tech industry" and so it is part of Silicon Alley. I have asked them to bring refs showing that biotech is part of Silicon Alley, and they have brought none, and instead just cited the dictionary at me.
What more could I tell you? Here are the first bunch of refs used in the Silicon Alley article itself.
I have shown Castncoot stuff like A Tale of Two Startup Worlds: Biotech And Tech VC Ecosystems and Why Biotech Startups are Not the Same as Tech Startups and Patent fight: Tech vs. pharma, round one (the role of IP is extremely different) and explained how the tech industry and biotech industries are wildly different (different amount of time and money to get to market, different regulatory scheme (none for iT!), different buyers (insurance companies for drugs, consumers for IT), different people doing it with very different skills, different investors, very different role of patents, etc etc). The industries are as different as a silicon chip and a beating human heart. To no avail.
I have shown them this page from the NYC Economic Development folks, showing the ED folks' very different plans to help the different sectors (IT vs biotech). To no avail.
So - the concrete issue is the content above in the Silicon Alley article. The question to the community - is the inclusion of biotech in the Silicon Valley article WP:OR? Jytdog ( talk) 12:19, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
In the page Whatta Man, I removed the passage that in ictu oculi added. IIO says that the line "Make me do the James Brown, every time I get on my feet" refers to Linda Lyndell's backing act days with James Brown. However, the song's connection to Brown is just analysis on the song, discouraged by the "no OR" policy. I searched for sources connecting the song to Brown but found none. I found this source and that source, but I don't think those sources link the song to Brown. -- George Ho ( talk) 06:39, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
I added captions in both Voices Carry and Voices Carry (album) to help readers differentiate the two products and to ease their confusions. I was told by Marchjuly that the image captions may been seen as "original research". However, both products use the same artwork, which might confuse readers. The single was distributed this way; so did the album. If image captions are original research, how else can I help readers get less confused? -- George Ho ( talk) 18:22, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
The context for this question is the avant-garde metal article. Avant garde metal is also known as experimental metal. There are several sources that explicitly state that avant-garde metal is known as experimental metal, or vice versa. Now, the point of contention is whether this style is also known as "avant-metal." I have not found any source treating "avant-metal" as a separate genre, and the term is found when describing bands described elsewhere as experimental metal or avant-garde metal. Finally, Jeff Wagner's Mean Deviation uses all three terms interchangeably. Within the same page, he will switch from "avant-garde metal" or "experimental metal" to "avant-metal" and back, and use the terms interchangeably in discussing the same band or same record label. Yet, he doesn't explicitly state "avant-garde metal, also known as avant-metal" or "experimental metal, also known as avant-metal." Is it original synthesis to understand the terms as completely interchangeable, and use this source as a reference supporting that claim on Wikipedia? Or is this reading into the next?-- 3family6 ( Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:20, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
This article in general contains good encyclopaedic information about issues like hijabs and patriarchy in sport. However, it makes synthesis points, such as saying that Turkey, Indonesia and Kazakhstan are emerging tennis countries - the relation of this to Islam is not supported by sources, and all three countries are secular and multicultural. In addition, club dominance in volleyball by Turkish and Azeri teams is mentioned - clubs are open to everyone, these two countries are secular and no source mentions the players being Muslims. I have been discussing this but progress is slow. I would like new voices, in any opinion Le new account ( talk) 00:01, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
A good faith, and probably knowledgable, editor working on Waterloo (Stonewall Jackson song) has included in the article an assertion that the melody derives from Leave It There. I suspect that's correct, but the assertion is the editor's own conclusion, forthrightly stated. The editor hasn't addressed the issue of OR, just defended the thesis. Commentary may help the editor to understand. The article now "ascribes" the song to its registered writers. Please see the Talk page discussion. Tapered ( talk) 23:34, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
An RfC has been initiated in the talk page of the Sati article. Whether NOR is being violated in the disputed material (through a misreading of the source material) forms an important component of the dispute. Please comment on the article talk page if this topic interests you. Soham321 ( talk) 05:01, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Can the claim that a given person has never published or submitted any scientific or research papers be verified by the fact that no such papers can be found to exist? Bear in mind that any paper published anywhere is indexed by search engines, and all such search engines come up empty for the person in question. — 67.14.236.50 ( talk) 03:23, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Ok thanks for explaining the background. This is apparently the text in question:
References
Looking at the sources and their notes I can see how one might get the impression that a conclusion was drawn rather than the sentence simply being paraphrased from the two sources listed. —DIY Editor ( talk) 22:34, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
For the article in question, we have a "List of 20 most viewed K-pop music videos on YouTube".
The table itself does not cite a source for the selection of individual songs. An editor defending the list cites [15]. However, they have identified a song or two that are somehow missing from the source and added them to the list. View figures are then updated from the individual video pages on YouTube. While the source is dated October 20, 2016, the chart says it is "Last Update: December 20, 2016".
The other editor suggested spinning off the chart to its own article. It had previously been killed as a trivial metric at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_January_4#List_of_most_viewed_kpop_music_videos and Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_most_viewed_kpop_music_videos. - SummerPhD v2.0 15:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
The article List of languages by number of native speakers aims to provide a ranked list of the top 100 languages. However, beyond the notorious unreliability of speaker counts, it's not possible to obtain a ranking by using specialized sources for each language, since they use different criteria and give figures for different dates. The solution chosen is to use a ranked list of the top 100 languages published by the Swedish encyclopedia Nationalencyklopedin. Although Nationalencyklopedin does not specify its methodology, it is at least a single (tertiary) source that is trying to be internally consistent.
Problem: entry #80 ( Northern Min) is obviously wrong – 4 times bigger than the figure in a reliable secondary source or the total population of the counties in which it is spoken – see Talk:List of languages by number of native speakers#Northern Min. But how can we fix this? Just deleting the entry would confuse readers, but any explanation would be OR. And what of the entries ranked #81 to #100? Kanguole 13:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
An editor keeps trying to insert original research in La Amistad based on (a) what he believes he can see in a reproduction of a 180-year-old painting, (b) a Facebook page, and (c) ancient maps. While our article is poorly sourced, the Amistad incident is far from obscure and finding reliable secondary sources is not difficult. I refuse to continue to argue with somebody who will not read, or cannot understand, WP:No original research. Eyes would be welcome. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 21:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Wich is not Honduras. -- Nicola Romani ( talk) 22:28, 14 January 2017 (UTC)"sailed from Havana for the port of Guanaja, in the island of Cuba"
— Page 27; Africans Taken in the Amistad: Congressional Document, Containing the Correspondence, &c., in Relation to the Captured Africans, U.S. Dept. of State, 1840.
-- Nicola Romani ( talk) 22:36, 14 January 2017 (UTC)"The Amistad is a Spanish vessel; was regularly cleared from Havana, a Spanish port in Cuba, to Guanaja, a Spanish port in the neighborood of Puerto Principe another Spanish port;"
— Page 37; Africans Taken in the Amistad: Congressional Document, Containing the Correspondence, &c., in Relation to the Captured Africans, U.S. Dept. of State, 1840.
More eyeballs are needed at Libertarian Republican; a user has inserted and reinserted content into this article that is not supported by any reliable sources. (The user is also inserting citations to the Libertarian Party's website and to a libertarian advocacy website, but even these (unacceptable) sources don't support the claims made).
More eyes on this would be appreciated. Neutrality talk 23:13, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
The following wikitext on Amhara people appears to be synthesis: "The medieval Adal Sultanate seized slaves during jihad expeditions in Christian outposts in the old provinces of Amhara, Shäwa, Fatagar, [20] and Dawaro [21]. Many of the slaves seized by Adal were assimilated, others exported or gifted to rulers of Arabia in exchange for military support [22]." It is cited to two works on expeditions in various historical multi-ethnic provinces of Ethiopia (viz. Amhara Province, Shewa, Fatagar, Dawaro); however, neither citation is population-specific (i.e., they do not indicate that the sultanate expeditions were against Amhara Christians). As such, the wikitext appears to breach WP:SYNTH since it "combines material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". Please advise. Soupforone ( talk) 05:11, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, I had to tweak the phrasing because the synthesis was even worse before. A wikiphrase attributed to Ehud R. Toledano claimed that "Amhara were a part of major Afar slave caravan trade routes from the southern and southwestern regions to the northern and eastern Ethiopia", when what Toledano actually indicates is that "the first section of this trade was in the hands of Ethiopian dealers who drove the slaves from the southern and southwestern Galla, Sidama, and Gurage principalities to the central Amhara provinces.[...] While the caravans from the area south of Showa were perhaps as large as those crossing the Sahara, the average Afar caravan consisted of thirty to fifty merchants and about two hundred slaves" [23]. That same wikiphrase was also attributed to Richard Pankhurst, who similarly writes instead that "later in the century Mähfuz, the amir of Zayla, no doubt taking advantage of the wealth and power of the port, began a series of annual incursions, into Amhara, Shäwa and Fatagar" [24]. Here too there's no mention of Afars enslaving Amhara, but rather expeditions by the Adal kingdom in the old multi-ethnic Amhara province and other zones. The only place where Pankhurst does allude to Amhara Christians is to indicate that many embraced Islam-- "'a great multitude' of Amhara Christians at his exhortation embraced Islam" [25]. Likewise, Ulrich Braukämper only mentions Adal sultanate raids in the Dawaro and Bale provinces, not by the Afars against Amahara-- "Harb Jaus, a general of the Adalite sultan Djamal al-Din (d. AD 1433), before he continued his campaigns against the Christians in Dawaro, also achieved a successful attack on Bale. Makrizi's document reports, 'So much booty fell into his hands that every poor man was given three slaves; indeed by reason of the vast numbers of these the price of slaves fell'" [26]. The foregoing is on expeditions by the Adal sultanate against old multi-ethnic provinces. Soupforone ( talk) 16:22, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Rafael Díez de la Cortina y Olaeta uses FamilySearch as a source multiple times. Is it Original Research? It's used to link to a scanned image of a passport, a scanned image of records of marriage, a census, crew lists, passport applications.-- User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 05:35, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I looked at WP:PRIMARY - it seems largely to allow primary sources - including familysearch I would assume - even while saying that they are easy to misuse.
From there I was linked to policy on primary sources in biographical articles - WP:BLPPRIMARY which states: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." - seems pretty definite against this kind of use.-- User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 18:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I noticed now that WP:BLPPRIMARY is about Biographies of living persons, which Rafael Díez is not, he died in 1939, so maybe the injunction against using public records is null. -I almost posted this in the BLP noticeboard. :/ -- User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 18:51, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I have limited the sources to just explicitly mentioning "Cold War II" and/or any other interchangeable term. To make the article less about EU/NATO–Russia relations, I added China–US and "Early usages" to balance the article. The recent addition by XavierItzm (reverted but then reinserted by me) and other additions by Fixuture had me worried. The sources added by them do not use the phrases, like "new Cold War" or "Second Cold War". Rather they used old " Cold War" and recent events as comparisons to justify inclusion of added information. Are these additions "original research"?
Also, there has been disagreements over what the article should be about. However, the subject they referred to was the EU/NATO–Russia relations, I think. Should the article discuss the term "Cold War II" or the subject describing (or described by) the term (probably EU/NATO–Russia)? -- George Ho ( talk) 17:59, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
This is about [27]. It is not clear at all what a wall around Jericho has to do with the Exodus. Wall around Jericho therefore the Exodus? Tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:20, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
Look you can argue that Bryant Wood is not a good source and I tend to agree still he is widely cited although mostly by academic theologians. The chronology is wrong but I don’t think anyone disputes that the site is the biblical Jericho. Many details match the biblical description the walls possibly destroyed by earthquake or war, then the city was burn after the harvest when the store houses where full.
What scholars dispute is that the city was destroyed by invading Israelis during the exodus. Jonney2000 ( talk) 06:12, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Is a US drone strike that killed the child of a suspected terrorist, added here, an example of collective punishment, or is this original research?
Please contribute at Talk:Collective punishment#RFC on US drone strike. Brad v 20:51, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
On an article I am working on, Iazyges, I found a source ( ISBN 9781900188470) that mentions that 1. The salt mines near to the Iazyges were owned by Rome, and 2. The Iazyges did not have salt of their own, and needed it, because they bred cattle. Would it be too far of a stretch to say that they relied upon the Romans to get this salt? I have another source (OCLC 891848847) that says that the Iazyges' trade route to the Pontic Steppe was cut off. These two factors would logically imply that the Iazyges would have to get it from the Romans. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:13, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
It seems to me that the "no original research" provision must, of necessity, exclude the summaries of every "literary work of art" (work) which I will define broadly as the plot summary of any
described in an article on Wikipedia.
Most plot summaries (or play summaries for video games) of these works are presumably written by the editor of that article at the time they create (or update) the article about the work, based upon their own memory of the plot of the work or how they played the video game. That summary has almost certainly never appeared anywhere else for that work and almost certainly has no reference to third-parties for the content of the summary.
Thus the plot or play summaries of these works are by definition original research having no third-party references at all. I have checked and there is no exception in the prohibition on original research for the summaries of the plot, or video game play, of works of art.
Therefore I think a qualifier should be added to the "no original research" provision to state that for obvious reasons of necessity (as I have stated above), the plot summary of a fiction book, play, television program (or series) or motion picture, and the play summary of a computer program is permitted to be original to Wikipedia, is permitted for this limited purpose to be original research, and to that extent is not required to contain or include references to third-party content.
In the alternative I believe it is necessary to flag every single article on Wikipedia about any fiction book, play, motion picture or television program (or television series) that contains plot summaries, or computer programs having a play summary, which are not references of, and not indicated by a reference as derived from, a third-party source, as containing forbidden (prohibited) original research. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) ( talk) 22:40, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
This is a situation where a WP:PRIMARY source is acceptable as long as no analyses or conclusions are made. Obviously this would have come up before if it were a policy problem. —DIYeditor ( talk) 23:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
Funny, but every comment here seems to be saying the exact same thing that I said but trying to dance around the rule so as to allow original research of the declaration of the plot of a work / play of a video game without calling it original research. Let me quote from the article on No Original Research:
“ | To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented... The prohibition against OR means that all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source, even if not actually attributed. The verifiability policy says that an inline citation to a reliable source must be provided for all quotations, and for anything challenged or likely to be challenged—but a source must exist even for material that is never challenged. | ” |
The WP:ABOUTSELF referenced above by someguy does not fix this problem because in that case we are still using a third party source.
You can't claim the plot summary is a primary source because it is using the work - book, film, play etc. -- as its source, and the summary isn't coming from the work, it is the Wikipedia editor's opinion of the work expressed as the summary.
The plot summary of any movie (or other work) is by definition original research, again, not sourced to a third party resource. Nothing you can find in a book, play, TV program review, or video game play review placed here, can be sourced back to anything but the editor's opinion. It is, almost always, not the summary of some published review of the film, it is itself the review and therefore it's original research.
You can tapdance around and spin-doctor this all you want, just to try to hide what your own admissions in your examples state is obvious: reviews of entertainment will almost always be first-party declarations of what the editor believes to be the plot, not a summary of what someone else said. There is no third-party reference someone can go back to and see if the summary fairly represents the conclusions of the third-party work, all we can do is look at the source work and see if the plot summary on Wikipedia matches it.
I don't see why all the spin-doctoring and tapdancing needs to be made to avoid the inevitable conclusion: plot/gameplay summaries often have no third-party sources available and sometimes original research for these items is unavoidable. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) ( talk) 10:08, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Now, if what you're saying is the original work can stand on its own as the source and then the summary can use the work as the source without requiring any prior third party material then this point should be made clear. It still sounds like an attempt to "backdoor" original research because if you didn't backdoor it you'd have to admit it was original Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) ( talk) 10:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello. People keep re-adding unsourced material on 2017 Romanian protests, as I said here: Talk:2017 Romanian protests#Unsorced material.-- 200.223.199.146 ( talk) 10:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Last 13 february I removed a unsorced claim on Printing. It was unsourced for 7 years. Then, Johnbod re-added as unsourced as it was before.-- 200.223.199.146 ( talk) 10:20, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
See my concerns on the article talk page. The main source is the user's website (which is in French), and the reference given doesn't seem to actually support the article. The user is also a user on the French wikipedia, and that seems to be his native language. I don't speak French, so I'm hoping someone here does. - Apocheir ( talk) 19:44, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
The user also has a lot of edits (on the English wikipedia) adding links to his 3d models of things to various pages, which seems a little spammy. - Apocheir ( talk) 19:48, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oviaivo's polyhedra : annoviaivo. - Apocheir ( talk) 14:42, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
I stumbled upon a huge area of WP:SYNTH: space colonization and daughter articles navigated by {{ wpspace}} and {{ Space colonization}}. The texts contain lots of plausible and referenced info: orbits, athmospheric composition, surface, minerals, etc., but often collected from various astronomical sources which do not actually discuss colonization. In my book it is all one huge synthesis to be severely pruned. I started trimming the "main" article, but I would also like some extra opinions. Staszek Lem ( talk) 18:41, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
For a long time I try to get the article Worldwide energy supply. It contains a lot of do-it-yourself-sources, that force you to start searching for the information needed. The author User:Rwbest refuses to give proper sources. Rwbest also refuses to give page numbers for easy access of the information.
The same article is removed from the Dutch Wikipedia as Own Research, and to my opinion this article is also Own Research. As the author is now plain and clear refusing to act (see: Talk:Worldwide energy supply), I give up and ask help. These unclear sources are making the article to an essay with WP:OR as you have to search for the info yourself. Are those do-it-yourself-sources acceptable? The Banner talk 16:47, 28 February 2017 (UTC) The Banner talk 16:42, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
In section 1.1 Trend growth percentages are sourced in Note 4: Compare World: Balances for 2012 and 2014. The reader can click on Balances which links to an IEA page, select region World, topic Balances and year 2012, click on Search and find Total Production 13385446 in the upper right corner. Repeating this for year 2014 gives 13805443 which is 3.1% more.
Hello, the Airports Authority of India publishes PDFs every month with traffic statistics for the airports it manages. For example, here are the passenger statistics for January and for February. Would it violate WP:SYNTH to add statistics from different PDFs, ultimately calculating, say, an airport's passenger count for the whole year? — Sunnya343✈ ( háblame • my work) 22:46, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
A new editor is inserting a fairly large volume of unreliably sourced material on Censorship by Google, cited to references that don't mention "censorship" at all. Given the WP:SYNTH issues, I'm hoping for wider attention. (In addition to the OR problems, there's also separate reliable sources issues - the same user is using opinion pieces and self-published sources that are improper as well).
More eyeballs on the article, and comments at Talk:Censorship by Google#Unreliable sources / improper self-published sources / WP:SYNTH, would be most welcome. Neutrality talk 19:54, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Smith & Wesson M&P15#Request for comment: add three instances of criminal use. Issues of original research and synthesis have been raised in discussion. The content proposed by the request for comment is a concise summary over numerous reliable sources. Participation from experienced editors familiar with our original research policies is requested. Thank you in advance. 35.164.119.4 ( talk) 17:09, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
In revising the lede of the John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories article in this edit, I also corrected an obvious misrepresentation of facts concerning the fundamental findings of the HSCA report (while reiterating and even expanding on the implications of the subset of facts given). User:Canada Jack proceeded to formulate what appeared to be WP:SYNTH statement to much the same effect as before, so I reverted (with concise references in the comments to corroborate) and followed up with a brief explanation on the talk page just to clear up any confusion. This user then counter-reverted, leaving a response on the talk page without so much as addressing the points I had raised.
At the heart of the matter is this: HSCA issued a series of findings, which are broken down into categories (so-called "paragraphs"). Each of these furthermore detail the issues considered in reaching the conclusions of said paragraph.
- Paragraph 1.B. concludes that "scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations". It goes on to discuss the studies (of these "dictabelt recordings") conducted by the commission in support of that finding. Well, it turns out now that several studies have since called into question that very evidence. Fine, and this is indeed addressed amply in our article.
- Paragraph 1.C. concludes that "the committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy". To support that finding, many connections between Oswald and various other people and groups are drawn. Nowhere, however, in this specific finding is there any reference to the acoustical evidence.
So my contention is simply this: taken as a whole, the findings of the HSCA are only partially based on the acoustical evidence, and so our article should state as much insofar as the scope of the newer revelations regarding the validity of the committee's original assessment of the dictabelt recordings is concerned. Any attempt to coalesce these findings (as User:Canada Jack did in referencing certain comments made by dissenting members) would thus be tantamount to WP:SYNTH.
Earl of Arundel ( talk) 19:20, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming. This doesn't concern the list directly, but only a small part of the lead. Participation from experienced editors familiar with our original research policies is requested. Thank you in advance. Obsidi ( talk) 22:04, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Please see Template talk:Specific#Wording for a suggestion on rewording this template message to make the purpose and meaning clearer, especially regarding the use of secondary sources. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 02:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
(Cross-posted from Talk:Racism in Africa)
69.121.8.140 has cited this for the claim that Islam introduced racism to Africa -- even though the source doesn't really discuss race or racism.
He is also trying to add material about Islam to the rest of the article even though other sources do not discuss Islam.
Making claims that a source is not explicit about, and making claims not found in sources, is original research and needs to be removed. Ian.thomson ( talk) 02:52, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
There has been some debate as to how to handle automotive production figures. This is primarily in the article List of manufacturers by motor vehicle production (see talk page discussion here [ [29]]. Related discussions have taken place on the GM [ [30]] and Toyota articles [ [31]]. The issue is how should the production volumes from various manufactures be combined. For example should Mazda numbers be added to Ford's (during the time of Ford control)? The agreed source of the numbers is the OICA. I believe all involved parties agree that this is a reliable source. The part in question is should the raw data from the OICA be combined. For example, here is the 2004 OICA data [ [32]] and the table as presented in the article with footnotes explaining the regrouping of manufacture data[ [33]]. Is it a violation of WP:NOR to take the raw data from a trusted source and regroup it in the article tables? Springee ( talk) 13:15, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Blocked proxy IP
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Many diverse reliable sources weigh in on automobile manufacturer production rankings, including reports from industry associations, industry journals, the business press, and main stream media. For a simple example, from The New York Times:
References
No one source is definitive; when reliable sources disagree among themselves, we are asked to summarize the disagreement. Rankings stated in Wikipedia voice should clarify which subsidiaries are included or excluded. Also relevant is that simple arithmetic is not original research. Further, context is important, so we cannot imply an endorsement of any one source and a definitive interpretation of that source by specifying a formula for combining manufacturers in such a way that it will settle all issues of rankings across all automotive articles. We are not industry analysts; the interpretation of the raw production numbers is best left to our sources. In addition, the article at issue might more clearly be titled "Ranking of automobile manufacturers by OICA production numbers;" as a single-source (OICA) list article it is of dubious encyclopedic value. 34.205.54.93 ( talk) 22:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Some additional context for this ORN query.
This ORN query asks an implied endorsement of a fundamentally flawed approach to sourcing claims of automobile manufacturer rankings. 34.205.54.93 ( talk) 15:44, 27 March 2017 (UTC) |
"Of note, Toyota's numbers include Daihatsu and Hino, two subsidiaries more than half owned by Toyota. Ford's numbers do not include Mazda, which it effectively controls, though it owns about a third of the company. If Mazda were added in, Ford would still be on top."
When reading that citation, one may see that Mazda WAS a Ford subsidiary/affiliate at that time, why Ford and Mazda would be listed together rather than separately as Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino. However, OICA lists Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino separately in 2003-2007 which results in Toyota being No.2 rather than No.1 in 2006 and 2007 though it usually IS No.1 'cause Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino together are larger than G.M. which is listed as No.1 which usually is wrong.
Ford and its (at that time) subsidiary/affiliate Mazda produced more than Toyota and its subsidiaries Hino and Daihatsu in 2004, which means it is usually wrong to list Toyota as No.2 and Ford as No.3 in 2004. I don't know why there has been a "mistake", is it possible to contact OICA to ask why Mazda has been listed separately from Ford though being a Ford affiliate? Björn Bergman 14:53, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
::An article drawn exclusively from a single source with dubious editorial processes is certainly highly unusual and of little encyclopedic value and probably an ill-advised effort, but if you insist on this idiosyncratic sourcing regime would you please support adding "...according to the OICA" to the title of the article so that our readers will be aware that a lowered sourcing standard is in effect, and warn our fellow editors that contributions from other reliable sources are not welcome? Our readers come to Wikipedia expecting the consensus of reliable sources, if they want the OICA numbers they can go to the OICA website. Thank you.
54.236.45.190 (
talk) 22:12, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
BjörnBergman and 54.236.45.190 are working under the belief that Mazda was a division of Ford at the time, which therefore makes it ok to add Mazda's production numbers to Ford's production numbers, ignoring how OICA ranks them separately. They make a similar case for Toyota owning Hino and Diahatsu. This is the main point that we differ on. To keep it simple, I will talk further about Ford and Mazda but the same basic argument applies to the Toyota side as well.
From the Mazda article, we learn that Ford owned 33% of Mazda shares at the time. This probably constitutes the majority for voting stock, thus giving Ford control over Mazda. However, I don't see anywhere that outright states that Ford owns Mazda. OICA seems to agree that they remained separate companies. Thus, Björn and 54.236.45.190 need to supply some proof that Ford owns Mazda. Without this proof we cannot override our source and recombined the raw numbers to provide a ranking that differs from what our source explicitly says.
Björn and 54.236.45.190 have tried putting in footnotes similar to "Ford includes Mazda which is an affiliate of the Ford Motor Company as of 2008. However, OICA lists Ford and Mazda separately." This is still trying to declare that Ford owns Mazda - without proof. An acceptable alternative would be something like "OICA lists Ford and Mazda separately. ORANISATION_XXX lists Mazda as part of Ford to rank Ford as #XXX[supporting ref]" - with a supporting reference of course.
Note also that there is an edit war on these articles. WP:BRD advises us to restore the original and then for both sides to refrain from further editing until discussions have been resolved., Björn and 54.236.45.190 keep reinstating their claims and Springee and myself revert it back to the original text. I fear that both sides have broken BRD. Stepho talk 23:07, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
I believe this is purely original research. The introduction of the Microscope article contains the sentence:
Other major types of microscopes are the electron microscope (both the transmission electron microscope and the scanning electron microscope), the ultramicroscope, and the various types of scanning probe microscope.
I can't find a source for this, and it is not discussed or mentioned anywhere else in the article. The word "ultramicroscope" only appears in the lead of the article. The Ultramicroscope article does not make a similar claim about it being a "major type of microscope." Please feel free to source and/or discuss if you thnk this is not original research.
Talk:Microscope#Request_for_comment_on_ultramicroscope
Thank you, -- 2601:648:8503:4467:F4B3:6D6C:9DCC:DC06 ( talk) 21:07, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
User:GramereC is posting original research to the Samuel Fraunces article. She claims to be a descendant of Fraunces, and asks that others stay out of the way for a week so she can complete her work (approaching 200 edits): User talk:GramereC#3RR.
Yesterday, User:Tuckerresearch cautioned her on this behavior, and pointed out her conflicts of interest: Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?
I think it is time for an administrator to intervene.
Thank you. BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 20:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
User:GramereC – a.k.a. User:Coroinn, a.k.a. User:CRCole; a.k.a. User:71.58.75.28, a.k.a. User:166.217.248.24, a.k.a. User:72.69.56.203, a.k.a. User:69.86.246.30, a.k.a. User:71.58.105.199 – has flagrantly used the Samuel Fraunces article to disseminate her theories about Fraunces’s parentage, ancestry and descendants; to discredit the documentary record and legitimate scholarship on Fraunces; to promote conspiracy theories about and imply racists motives to those with whose work she disagrees; and to promote her self-published Fraunces biography.
Some of her most outrageous claims and accusations have been made on the talk page. But this complaint will be limited to original research added to the article. Below are some examples of original research added during periods in which she was the only editor of content:
User:Tuckerresearch confronted User:GramereC on some of her most outrageous and undocumented claims. Talk:Samuel Fraunces#Edward Fraunces → Samuel Fraunces? Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?, and User:GramereC deleted the items. But how can Wikipedia tolerate this behavior? BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 18:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
User:GramereC – a.k.a. User:Coroinn, a.k.a. User:CRCole; a.k.a. User:71.58.75.28, a.k.a. User:166.217.248.24, a.k.a. User:72.69.56.203, a.k.a. User:69.86.246.30, a.k.a. User:71.58.105.199 – has flagrantly used the Samuel Fraunces article to disseminate her theories about Fraunces’s parentage, ancestry and descendants; to discredit the documentary record and legitimate scholarship on Fraunces; to promote conspiracy theories about and imply racists motives to those with whose work she disagrees; and to promote her self-published Fraunces biography.
Where has this happened??? again here is Boring History Guy going off on anyone who tries to remove anyting he says about Fraunces.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Some of her most outrageous claims and accusations have been made on the talk page. But this complaint will be limited to original research added to the article. Below are some examples of original research added during periods in which she was the only editor of content:
So if we use the talk page Boring History Guy gets angry and turns everything personal.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
All three things are true but have often been removed because YOU Boring Old History Guy say so. That is fine remove the birth certificate because the dates vary remove burials for the same reason. Which is what you do. Even when it is replaced with some other work you blank it out. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Again much of this was removed by Boring Old History Guy. Not corrected with any type of note added. Much of this text is not mine but is what was there to begin with by some unsigned editor who is never identified. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
User:Tuckerresearch confronted User:GramereC on some of her most outrageous and undocumented claims. Talk:Samuel Fraunces#Edward Fraunces → Samuel Fraunces? Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?, and User:GramereC deleted the items. But how can Wikipedia tolerate this behavior? BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 18:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I think this recent round of edits can be researched on their own. Again If you are going to use other Tertiary sources such as the museum pre visit or the booklet Kym Rice did for the FTM and SR you need to look at what references they used to begin with. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Prime problems are representing the current building as having been there since colonial times. It was a rebuild. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
The portrait that FTM uses was purchased at auction in 1913 and although they say it is Fraunces they offer no provenance. The only way to verify where it came from is from SR published minutes. The way the portrait is continually put up front without recognizing that there is another earlier published sketch of Samuel Fraunces provided by family. Plus written description in conflict with the description is reprehensible in that they are in need of reproof. There are other places where the documents are just as reprehensible.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Limiting the secondary sources acceptable in your eyes necessitate exposing the primary documents because the primary documents are in conflict. Most of these conclusions were reached many years ago. You actual took WEB DuBois statement and had it written that Fraunces had no African blood. That just is not true all anyone has to do is read the final letter in the discussion. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
You continue to go back to Fraunces Will and you do not give a viable source to find it. Then when I place one in your text as correction you take it back out. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
User:BoringHistoryGuy on this Samuel Fraunces article is an entire section that has NOTHING published about it. This poisoning attempt – if it occurred – would have taken place in late June 1776 at Richmond Hill, Washington's headquarters in Manhattan. The housekeeper there was a widow named Mary Smith,[85] although there were other female servants. Fraunces's tavern was about two miles away and provided catered meals for the general and his staff. The reference included here is for the wrong thing.
This Wikipedia article then goes on to argue why Lossing's story is incorrect based on the assertion that the events took place at Richmond Hill. This is original work.GramereC 01:45, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Particularly when a response is interleaved with the complaint. Editors here will not be able to work through all of the above content disputes. The only thing that is clear is that the two editors completely disagree on the content and that they cannot communicate with each other. GramereC, you cannot insist that only your version be included in the article. User:BoringHistoryGuy is a respected editor here and seems to have very good knowledge of the general area. If you cannot reach agreement with him on what should be included in the article, or find other editors who back your version, then you just cannot force your version of things into the article. We do things by consensus here.
I strongly urge you to write up your own version of the article in your own user space, then we'll be able to properly judge both the overall content of the "two" articles and individual sentences and paragraphs. If you are only willing to give us a choice between "your article" or "his article", my feeling is that editors will choose "his article." Smallbones( smalltalk) 20:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I have left as much of the old article as possible and if you look at just the Phebe edits you can see that. Boring History Guy wants his version and no other. You keep insisting that this is a thing between he and I which is not my feeling at all. I have not insisted mine is the only version and if you go back and look that is true. Boring History Guy has the agenda it is not me. I removed sources referring to me or my publications. Tried to leave his stuff there as much as possible. GramereC 23:26, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe I can do that tomorrow. The article right now has both sides which was never the problem.
Currently the only thing left is those numbers for the Presidential household which have no citiation. They are obviously the work of someone adding things up themselves but since there is no cite it is hard to tell what they are saying it is on the talk page under presidential household. Mt Vernon sent a list of known sources to cite the size of household and none match the numbers given.
As far as your consensus goes send it to an admin or an arbitrator. The gang of three is ridiculous.GramereC 23:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Ok it is all in the sand box I think I got everything folks sent me overnight. I left spaces where I have issues not sure how you wanted that. There are still an awful lot of BAD REFERENCES. GramereC 17:15, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
And then this: I suspect User:GramereC is posting under a new alias.[8] User:2600:8803:3400:8200:2590:8c3c:59a7:70f4 today added details to the article that only someone intimately familiar with her work would know. (Note also the deceptive edit summary.) BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:52, 7 April 2017 (UTC) Is he talking about the overnight puncuation and text corrections someone did? They were fine.
I was just wondering about my new article The Old Axolotl. I inserted the following claim there: "It is Dukaj's first book, and therefore longest work, translated to English as of this date." I also added the claim "The Old Axolotl is the first book of Dukaj published in English (in 2015)" to Jacek Dukaj. It is true (cue shaking of the head, I know), but I haven't found any reference stating so directly, I base this claim on the fact that the list of his works I (cited [54]) shows clearly which of his works were translated to English. There are only four, it is the only one classified under novels/novellas and the other three are classified as short stories. At what point, I wonder, do we leave WP:BLUE and enter WP:OR? Is my conclusion that this is his only book translated to English, and his longest work to be translated yet, OR, or BLUE? If you reply here, do ping me back. Cheers, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:42, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
There is a dispute as to if the inclusion of a comparison to Likud's platform to the Hamas charter at Hamas. The difference in views can be seen in this diff. The sources used to justify are for comparing to Likud, to Gush Emunim and Likud. The last source, while discussing extreme religious views in charters or platforms that are often cited but just as often ignored by the politicians, gives quotes from the Hamas charter and then gives quotes from the Likud charter, with both quotes laying claim to all of historic Palestine (the river to the sea maximalist position on either side). Is it SYNTH to say that both Likud and Hamas' charter/platform make the same claim to all of Palestine based on these sources? nableezy - 19:46, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Falconfly, who has a history of making claims not supported by the sources he cites (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Falconfly), has repeatedly edited pages relating to Volaticotherini with references to his pet hypothesis that volaticotheres were capable of powered flight. In particular, he has posted reconstructions of three taxa, Argentoconodon, Ichthyoconodon, and Triconolestes with fully-developed wings. All published sources on Volaticotherium and Argentoconodon have consistently referred to them as gliders similar to flying squirrels, incapable of powered flight, and reconstructed them as such. There is also a somewhat grayer area regarding whether a source refuted an older source adequately. Ornithopsis ( talk) 12:06, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Can you point to a peer-reviewed scientific article clearly and explicitly stating that volaticotheres were or could have been capable of powered flight? If not, it's WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, period. If you feel the case is strong for this, then write it up and submit it to a paleontology journal; it's easy. But until then, unless you can directly attribute this claim to a paper (not abstract, definitely not website), it can't be included. HCA ( talk) 18:08, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Can someone please ROLLBACK the edits by User:36.83.144.248 (I don't know how to use that option). All his or her edits are about adding unsourced categories regarding ethnicities, which, again have no reliable sourcing or even foundation (see (see [5]). I warned the IP on his or her talk page. Thanks. Quis separabit? 19:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
The original text written by Antun Vrančić is in Latin, and the translation below is made by Ioan-Aurel Pop {in his work Religiones and Nationes in Transylvania during the 16th Century):
[Transylvania] is inhabited by three nations, Szeklers, Hungarians, Saxons; still, I would also include the Romanians, who are easily equal in number [to the others] but have no liberties, no nobility, no rights of their own, with the exception of a small number who live in the district of Haţeg, where Deceballus is believed to have had his capital, and who were ennobled during the reign of John Hunyadi, a native of those parts, because they relentlessly fought against the Turks
According to the interpretation of some fellow editors, this can be expressed by the following percentages:
These data can be found at History_of_Transylvania#Historical_population. Is this interpretation good? 123Steller ( talk) 15:24, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
The Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations article has been notified of a potential WP:SYNTH issue in what is now the Observations of behavioral patterns section. The content at the talk page discussion is quite long. So, I've summarized what I think is the current state of the issue - because some things have changed since the initial post. You will get the perspective of Rrburke, though, quite clearly when you read it, he or she is quite articulate.
References
Your insight and guidance would be much appreciated!-- CaroleHenson (talk) 02:52, 17 October 2016 (UTC) wrong with this posting? Something that needs to be done to help the watchers of this page look at the issue? Thanks!-- CaroleHenson (talk) 01:47, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
See for example List of terrorist incidents, 2016 and a brief discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents, 2016 and a longer discussion at User talk:JBergsma1#WP:NOR violations. Without reliable sources confirming that these are actual terrorist incidents, the lists are original research - and worse, the readers can't tell which is which. There's obviously the RS question of sources, but for terrorism we normally look for official sources. Pinging those involved in the discussion, @ NewsAndEventsGuy, Drmies, JBergsma1, EvergreenFir, and Parsley Man:. I wish we had a board that combined RS/NOR/NPOV. Doug Weller talk 15:55, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Shooting of James Boyd ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I would like to request some outside help with the above article. The core issue as I see it is original research. To set the background, this was a very controversial shooting in a town with a history of police violence, and which triggered a finding by the state attorney general that the police department brought charges against the district attorney "for political purposese" after she filed charged against the police officers who shot him.
Much of the secondary source coverage deals with lapel video -- whether or not Boyd was turning when shot, whether or not this meant he was surrendering, etc. Furthermore most of the coverage was provided by a television station, which live streamed the trial.
The most important question is how to handle the differing transcriptions. A key piece of evidence is what exactly one of the shooters meant when he said "this fucking lunatic? I am going to shoot him in the penis with a beanbag shotgun here in a minute." Or possibly "in the pecker" as some testified at trial, although I am not certain whether this is a difference in transcription or recollection. A state police officer also said under oath that the shooter, APD Detective Keith Sandy, said "with a beanbag shotgun" but I just don't hear that, though the officer had with him a beanbag shotgun and a Taser shotgun, so it is possible that this is what he meant and the other officer understood. What Sandy actually shot him with was a rifle, which may have escaped the notice of some of the people protesting this death not being called a first-degree murder. I don't really care which gets used; the significance to me was that it was said before the officer made contact with him.
I have an opinion about this shooting, which I have stated on the talk page, but my primary goal is accuracy in the Wikipedia article. The other editor who has been working on this article says the same, but his definition of accuracy seem to me to be "validating the opinion that of course the officers did nothing wrong." It seems more complicated than that to me -- these officers seem to have received training contrary to their SOP manual; what are we to make of that? We can't just revert to secondary sources only as we both agree that several of them are wrong, including the initial Associated Press account.
So. I would like some help, please, in sorting this out. I am not going to mention names here as this question is really what *are* we supposed to do, and I may yet need to do an ANI or NPOV report on an editor, so I would like to keep the matters separate. Thanks for any input. Elinruby ( talk) 21:04, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
in 2014 or 2015.It happened in the trial, which was this year. The links to all of this are in the Article. Beanyandcecil ( talk) 03:54, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
conceivabl[e that someone] might identify him.
... we understand that you don't think anyone who hasn't been law enforcement has a right to question these events.Actually I think that anyone, no matter what their background, has the right to critique these events. But when there's a disagreement as to what something means or why something was done, the opinion of the civilian (meaning someone who is not or was not LE and educated, trained and experienced with these matters) matters little, if at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They are not entitled to their own facts. For example, when Boyd turned (which the prosecution interprets as him surrendering) LEOs who know about such things, know that this is not a show of surrender, by any stretch of the imagination. He's not being commanded to turn or to get down on the ground. He is being told to FIRST "drop the knives." AFTER THAT, will come orders for him to move away from them, and THEN to get down on the ground. So anyone is welcome to think that he was surrendering, but LEOs know that he was not.
I think he was probably trying to explain a policy to you that really does exist.I'm well aware of the policy and don't deny that it exists. But what I did does not rise to the level of a violation of that policy. First, HE made the information public, not me. Second, THERE IS NO PERSONAL INFORMATION (required to be a violation of the Wiki Policy) anywhere in the statement. In fact HE IS BEING UNREASONABLE in his demand that I remove the information. More than likely had he approached me in a polite and professional manner, had he continued to contribute to the editing of the article and responded to my questions, I'd have removed it. But given his behavior, I won't take it down. Beanyandcecil ( talk) 01:03, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
But that dispute is another matter, not under consideration here. I'm only concerned with his refusal to discuss the article and his continued reversion of it to remove my description of the knife.
Beanyandcecil ( talk) 15:09, 14 October 2016 (UTC)"primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them."
And supposing I agreed with you it would still be a primary source, ie not preferred.
We discussed primary vs secondary and agreed that there are contradictory statements, acoounts and transcriptions, right?
But the problem with primary sources is interpretation and this is where we run into these issues:
- what exactly did Sandy said to Ware? I think it is *possible* that he *meant* Taser shotgun but this is an interpretation. He didn't *say* it. It may be obvious to someone of a certain background, ie you and the state police officer that this is what he meant. But I don't think we should insert words into a quote based on what we think Sandy meant, especially not a quote that is the rationale for all the "murder" analyses going around.
The fact is, he had less-lethal weapons and a rifle. We agreed on that, right? So there is no need for saying APD "murdered" anyone and also no proof, right?
Did Perez say Booyah after he shot Boyd? If so... well. The tape this is on is the one from Perez' heltmet cam, or at least that is what the headline says.(ref coming shortly)
In fact, as far as I know, there are no helmet cams at APD
Taser cameras come with cloud storage, while the old systems had to be downloaded to an external hard drive and the officers were tasked with doing this. Compliance was unsurprisingly poor.
Certain officers, however, were developing a pattern of serial use of violence incidents, in most of which their cameras "malfunctioned" or were not turned on. This isn't me saying this, this is DoJ and any number of RS news stories about how Albuquerque comes to have more police violence than New York or LA.
Anyway, there are discrepancies in this equipment story, but getting back to Perez. Based on volume it sounds like him (defense equipment expert said the loudest voice is the person wearing the camera).
The file played in court has this sound captioned (inaudible) but ok, it could be "oo ya", to me. One theory, not a reliable source, was that it was possibly "pshaw" and this is sometimes used with dogs. I am not going to look for a better source on "pshaw" because I don't believe it.
But do you see the problem? We are arguing about *interpretation* -- and wikipedia doesn't deal in unsupported opining, no matter how expert it might be. This policy does, we agreed, lead to weird stuff. Cited quotes, expert opinons, get deleted because they aren't CNN. I know, I know. But this might be weirder. All I know to do in this article is just keep hanging references on stuff. Eventually there will be too many and we can delete some of thrmand stop arguing about this because we convinced one another. Theoretically.
Please see the passage below:
In 1999 Lind led the creation of an hour-long program entitled "Political Correctness: The Frankfurt School". [1] Some of Lind's content went on to be reproduced by James Jaeger in his YouTube film "CULTURAL MARXISM: The Corruption of America" in which a quote from Pat Buchanan's The Death of the West is attributed to Herbert Marcuse. [2] [3] [4] The intellectual historian Martin Jay commented on this phenomenon saying that Lind's original documentary:
"... spawned a number of condensed textual versions, which were reproduced on a number of radical right-wing sites. These in turn led to a welter of new videos now available on YouTube, which feature an odd cast of pseudo-experts regurgitating exactly the same line. The message is numbingly simplistic: all the ills of modern American culture, from feminism, affirmative action, sexual liberation and gay rights to the decay of traditional education and even environmentalism are ultimately attributable to the insidious influence of the members of the Institute for Social Research who came to America in the 1930's." [1]
References
OK. So it is indeed true, that the Jaeger video attributes something to Marcuse, that is actually Pat Buchanan's summary of his own view of "Cultural Marxism". For example the video attributes the following quote to Marcuse: "Western societies are history’s greatest repositories of racism, sexism, nativism, xenophobia, homophobia, anti-Semitism fascism, and Nazism". But this is quote right out of Buchanan's book Death of the West, on page 80, where Buchanan is describing Cultural Marxism in his own words. Others opposing "Cultural Marxism" correctly attribute this quote to Buchanan. See for example: Gordon, David (14 June 2002). "The Folly of National Unity". Mises Institute., and also Ellis, Claire (26 June 2014). "The Socialist-Capitalist Alliance: the Fabian Society, the Frankfurt School, and Big Business: Part II". Council of European Canadians.
The problem for me is that no reliable source identifies the misattribution (it is definitely true). User:Jobrot believes this is a WP:BLUESKY, simple factual thing, and justifies the use of reference #2 above, under WP:PARITY. In my view that youtube video is an SPS and not valid, and the phrase, "in which a quote from Pat Buchanan's The Death of the West is attributed to Herbert Marcuse" is OR supported by a poor source.
So the questions is - is the above OK per BLUESKY or is this OR? Jytdog ( talk) 05:45, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
So far this discussion seems to mostly contain editors who are already entrenched in the dispute. With
Zero
talk being the only new editor to chime in.
I'd remind everyone that
WP:WL warns against:
...and I believe we have a loose consensus that they're most likely Buchanan's words (and that to ask for proof of a non-existent Marcuse quote doesn't really make sense given the circumstantial evidence). I think within the WP:RS hierarchy Buchanan's book rates higher than Jaegers independent youtube film (as well as pre-dating the film by a decade). So I think the current wording of 'attributes' is a good compromise, as long as it's not changed back to 'misattributes' or 'incorrectly attributes' (which I've gone back and forth on before, and I now admit the previous wording comes closer to WP:SYNTH). But I think the current wording is fine.
I would definitely like to hear from uninvolved editors on this issue. -- Jobrot ( talk) 07:14, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
"If proper attribution cannot be found among reliable sources of an idea's standing, it should be assumed that the idea has not received consideration or acceptance; ideas should not be portrayed as accepted unless such claims can be documented in reliable sources."
"Synthesis of published material" says, "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources."
Taking a passage where someone is quoting someone and comparing it with the original quote and concluding that it was wrongly quoted is synthesis because neither of the two sources say it was wrongly quoted.
Your argument against following the policy is that Wikipedia should be edifying. However, it has always been its position that information facts and opinions not reported in reliable sources should not be put into articles. That means we're leaving out lots of information about novel theories by editors, new bands, new companies, etc. And nothing that reliable sources do not mention are not important enough to include in articles.
TFD ( talk) 16:24, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello folks. Right now we've got an article called list of cryptids. The article itself is a total mess and is a relic of an era in which cryptoozologists had free reign on Wikipedia.
Recently another article was merged into it, a result of an ongoing effort to clean up the huge mess the cryptozoologists left behind from that era. However, what remains on this article is a mass of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. (To dispel any confusion, cryptozoology is a classic pseudoscience on par with, say, flat earth theory or ghost hunting and shouldn't be confused with biology or folkloristics.)
Anyway, there are a lot of dubious claims going on there that stink of original research. Please see the talk page for discussion. Thanks! :bloodofox: ( talk) 01:08, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding req.attention to edits. The thread is Editor on a mission: folkloristics vs cryptozoology. TeeVeeed ( talk) 13:57, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Some administrative units are known by several names. E.g. some sources say about Pozsony County and other about Pressburg County (the same county).
If the first source contains a sentence "Nyitra County shared borders with Pozsony County" and the second uses the name Pressburg (but does not mention a neighborhood), is the following sentence original research and synthesis of published material?
"Nyitra County shared borders with Pozsony (Pressburg) County" Ditinili ( talk) 18:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi, in my best estimation the short article 'agnostic theism' I nominated for deletion is a neologism founded on a synthesis of agnosticism and atheism. When I nominated it I didn't expect opposition, there is opposition that doesn't seem to understand the OR objection. An opinion might be helpful. If I'm wrong, I'll withdraw the deletion nomination. The opinion of a knowledgeable 'OR' perspective may be helpful.
Thanks in advance. KSci (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
I reverted these edits to Anti-Indian sentiment that to me appear to be original research and a change in pov not supported by the sources, and appear to fall under general sanctions. Could someone review the edits? -- Ronz ( talk) 16:45, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi We have a discussion for deletion here and no admin has taken action yet. The article itself is OR purely and clearly. The 2 editors creating/editing it are clearly not neutral and motivated with Kurdish nationalist ideas. Many other articles related to the so called "rojava" are the same and are created and persistently maintained in their current biased form by the same users who have been edit-warring to deleted any neutral edit. Please take a look at Human rights in Rojava for example, to see how it sounds like utopia (pure propaganda for a certain political party). Thanks. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم ( talk) 05:17, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
The mentioned article is original research cause it recruit sources that do not mention the invented region called shahba, making it look like a real historic region with historical recognition even though its just a result of the syrian war where different parties gain and lose lands everyday and this region was born because the YPG took control of it and can go out of the face of earth if another force took over it.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 20:07, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
To what degree the results of Google Ngram Viewer are allowed to support statements in wikipedia articles?
See Talk:Soft skills/Archives/2016#"First documented usage" where this question arose. Staszek Lem ( talk) 01:19, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
What do folks think about the following, which is being proposed at the Felodipine article? It is a chart of annual sales, constructed from the company's annual reports.
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
References
Never seen anyone do this before. Is this OR? Kind of interesting. Thoughts? Jytdog ( talk) 00:38, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello all. I wish to know if the source in the title could be reliable considering its age. The author is Tamás Lajos - (the link is to the Hungarian Wikipedia article about him); the book is referred here: /info/en/?search=History_of_Transylvania#cite_note-60 . 123Steller ( talk) 23:19, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
There is Original Research being placed in the United States presidential election, 2016 article by Gsonnenf concerning Voter Turnout. It needs to be removed immediately. It is false and it is not supported by a reliable source and Gsonnenf is falsely claiming that the number Gsonnenf is making up is supported by the leading expert in the field, when it isn't.
Election Day may be over but the counting of the votes has not finished. There are still about 4 million or so votes to be counted.
Various editors have been asking that Voter Turnout not be placed into the article until ALL of the votes have been counted because--all of the experts (including Dr. Michael McDonald, Associate Professor at the Univ of Florida Political Science Dept and principal at the United States Elections Project)--have stated that no one can determine Voter Turnout until all of the votes are counted.
However, Gsonnenf has taken it upon himself to decide the true number of votes and to decide the number of eligible voters and calculate the Voter Turnout on his own--even though he is merely a Wikipedia editor and is not an expert. This is original research. Especially since the people that specialize in it--such as Dr. Michael McDonald--say that it cannot be determined until all of the votes are counted and McDonald is reporting a different, higher number.
Gsonnenf keeps reverting other editors and jamming into the article's infobox his original research number. This violates Wikipedia in all kinds of ways. Gsonnenf claims that his edits have the consensus of the talk page and that could not be further from the truth. He was involved in a discussion and he did not like the direction the discussion was going and just decided the consensus went his way and now he says his edit are the consensus over and over again--even though that claim is not true.
Gsonnenf edited article to state that Voting Turnout is 53.7%. You can see his edit here: Gsonnenf's false claim that U.S. Elections Project reports 53.7% Voter Turnout. The fact is that Dr. McDonald has claimed publicly that he believes the Voter Turnout is NOT finalized but it should be about 58%--not Gsonnenf's made up 53.7%. Please see Dr. McDonald's 58% Voter Turnout Estimate here: On November 14, 2016, Dr. Michael McDonald stated 58%--not the false number Gsonnenf uses
When you compare Gsonnenf's made up number (and he is NOT an expert, just a Wikipedia editor) with the number that has been posted by Dr. McDonald on his Twitter account, you can easily see that Gsonnenf is engaging in original research--which is verifiably incorrect and Gsonnenf is flat out making up a number and then--to put the icing on the cake--he cites Dr. McDonald, saying that Dr. McDonald supports the false 53.7% number. Dr. McDonald does not support any such thing.-- ML ( talk) 17:29, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Ir seems to me that the article linked above has a plethora of Original research. Its principal writer has asked for a Peer review. BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 17:11, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Nor do I recall anyone ever claiming we can't use court decisions as sources. This has never been a problem on other articles I've worked on. Daniel Case ( talk) 16:00, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Where I used it as the major source was the section on the appeal itself and the court's decision, in which case the decision is the subject of that section and so I think there's wider latitude for relying on it. Daniel Case ( talk) 16:15, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Might as well go back-to-back here.
The question to the community is - is the inclusion of content about biotech in the Silicon Alley article WP:OR?
OK, so the following content is in the Silicon Alley article:
The biotechnology sector is also growing in Silicon Alley, based upon the region's strength in academic scientific research and public and commercial financial support. On December 19, 2011, then Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg announced his choice of Cornell University and Technion-Israel Institute of Technology to build a US$2 billion graduate school of applied sciences on Roosevelt Island, with the goal of transforming New York City into the world's premier technology capital. [1] [2] By mid-2014, Accelerator, a biotech investment firm, had raised more than US$30 million from investors, including Eli Lilly and Company, Pfizer, and Johnson & Johnson, for initial funding to create biotechnology startups at the Alexandria Center for Life Science, which encompasses more than 700,000 square feet (65,000 m2) * on East 29th Street and promotes collaboration among scientists and entrepreneurs at the center and with nearby academic, medical, and research institutions. The New York City Economic Development Corporation's Early Stage Life Sciences Funding Initiative and venture capital partners, including Celgene, General Electric Ventures, and Eli Lilly, committed a minimum of US$100 million to help launch 15 to 20 ventures in life sciences and biotechnology. [3]
References
Right. So, in New York City, "Silicon Ally" is parallel to, you know, Silicon Valley. Computer industry -- digital media, apps, etc. Information technology. For short, the "tech industry". Which is =/= biotech.
Looking at the refs used above:
I edited the above to read as follows, taking out the biotech:
The New York City government has worked to support the tech sector. On December 19, 2011, then Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg announced his choice of Cornell University and Technion-Israel Institute of Technology to build a US$2 billion graduate school of applied sciences on Roosevelt Island, with the goal of transforming New York City into the world's premier technology capital. [1] [2]
References
That was reverted by User:Castncoot, and i have asked them why they included biotech in this article, and they just keep writing stuff like this, in which they say that "biotechnology" includes "technology" (it is applied biology) so of course biotech is part of the "tech industry" and so it is part of Silicon Alley. I have asked them to bring refs showing that biotech is part of Silicon Alley, and they have brought none, and instead just cited the dictionary at me.
What more could I tell you? Here are the first bunch of refs used in the Silicon Alley article itself.
I have shown Castncoot stuff like A Tale of Two Startup Worlds: Biotech And Tech VC Ecosystems and Why Biotech Startups are Not the Same as Tech Startups and Patent fight: Tech vs. pharma, round one (the role of IP is extremely different) and explained how the tech industry and biotech industries are wildly different (different amount of time and money to get to market, different regulatory scheme (none for iT!), different buyers (insurance companies for drugs, consumers for IT), different people doing it with very different skills, different investors, very different role of patents, etc etc). The industries are as different as a silicon chip and a beating human heart. To no avail.
I have shown them this page from the NYC Economic Development folks, showing the ED folks' very different plans to help the different sectors (IT vs biotech). To no avail.
So - the concrete issue is the content above in the Silicon Alley article. The question to the community - is the inclusion of biotech in the Silicon Valley article WP:OR? Jytdog ( talk) 12:19, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
In the page Whatta Man, I removed the passage that in ictu oculi added. IIO says that the line "Make me do the James Brown, every time I get on my feet" refers to Linda Lyndell's backing act days with James Brown. However, the song's connection to Brown is just analysis on the song, discouraged by the "no OR" policy. I searched for sources connecting the song to Brown but found none. I found this source and that source, but I don't think those sources link the song to Brown. -- George Ho ( talk) 06:39, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
I added captions in both Voices Carry and Voices Carry (album) to help readers differentiate the two products and to ease their confusions. I was told by Marchjuly that the image captions may been seen as "original research". However, both products use the same artwork, which might confuse readers. The single was distributed this way; so did the album. If image captions are original research, how else can I help readers get less confused? -- George Ho ( talk) 18:22, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
The context for this question is the avant-garde metal article. Avant garde metal is also known as experimental metal. There are several sources that explicitly state that avant-garde metal is known as experimental metal, or vice versa. Now, the point of contention is whether this style is also known as "avant-metal." I have not found any source treating "avant-metal" as a separate genre, and the term is found when describing bands described elsewhere as experimental metal or avant-garde metal. Finally, Jeff Wagner's Mean Deviation uses all three terms interchangeably. Within the same page, he will switch from "avant-garde metal" or "experimental metal" to "avant-metal" and back, and use the terms interchangeably in discussing the same band or same record label. Yet, he doesn't explicitly state "avant-garde metal, also known as avant-metal" or "experimental metal, also known as avant-metal." Is it original synthesis to understand the terms as completely interchangeable, and use this source as a reference supporting that claim on Wikipedia? Or is this reading into the next?-- 3family6 ( Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:20, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
This article in general contains good encyclopaedic information about issues like hijabs and patriarchy in sport. However, it makes synthesis points, such as saying that Turkey, Indonesia and Kazakhstan are emerging tennis countries - the relation of this to Islam is not supported by sources, and all three countries are secular and multicultural. In addition, club dominance in volleyball by Turkish and Azeri teams is mentioned - clubs are open to everyone, these two countries are secular and no source mentions the players being Muslims. I have been discussing this but progress is slow. I would like new voices, in any opinion Le new account ( talk) 00:01, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
A good faith, and probably knowledgable, editor working on Waterloo (Stonewall Jackson song) has included in the article an assertion that the melody derives from Leave It There. I suspect that's correct, but the assertion is the editor's own conclusion, forthrightly stated. The editor hasn't addressed the issue of OR, just defended the thesis. Commentary may help the editor to understand. The article now "ascribes" the song to its registered writers. Please see the Talk page discussion. Tapered ( talk) 23:34, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
An RfC has been initiated in the talk page of the Sati article. Whether NOR is being violated in the disputed material (through a misreading of the source material) forms an important component of the dispute. Please comment on the article talk page if this topic interests you. Soham321 ( talk) 05:01, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Can the claim that a given person has never published or submitted any scientific or research papers be verified by the fact that no such papers can be found to exist? Bear in mind that any paper published anywhere is indexed by search engines, and all such search engines come up empty for the person in question. — 67.14.236.50 ( talk) 03:23, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Ok thanks for explaining the background. This is apparently the text in question:
References
Looking at the sources and their notes I can see how one might get the impression that a conclusion was drawn rather than the sentence simply being paraphrased from the two sources listed. —DIY Editor ( talk) 22:34, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
For the article in question, we have a "List of 20 most viewed K-pop music videos on YouTube".
The table itself does not cite a source for the selection of individual songs. An editor defending the list cites [15]. However, they have identified a song or two that are somehow missing from the source and added them to the list. View figures are then updated from the individual video pages on YouTube. While the source is dated October 20, 2016, the chart says it is "Last Update: December 20, 2016".
The other editor suggested spinning off the chart to its own article. It had previously been killed as a trivial metric at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_January_4#List_of_most_viewed_kpop_music_videos and Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_most_viewed_kpop_music_videos. - SummerPhD v2.0 15:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
The article List of languages by number of native speakers aims to provide a ranked list of the top 100 languages. However, beyond the notorious unreliability of speaker counts, it's not possible to obtain a ranking by using specialized sources for each language, since they use different criteria and give figures for different dates. The solution chosen is to use a ranked list of the top 100 languages published by the Swedish encyclopedia Nationalencyklopedin. Although Nationalencyklopedin does not specify its methodology, it is at least a single (tertiary) source that is trying to be internally consistent.
Problem: entry #80 ( Northern Min) is obviously wrong – 4 times bigger than the figure in a reliable secondary source or the total population of the counties in which it is spoken – see Talk:List of languages by number of native speakers#Northern Min. But how can we fix this? Just deleting the entry would confuse readers, but any explanation would be OR. And what of the entries ranked #81 to #100? Kanguole 13:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
An editor keeps trying to insert original research in La Amistad based on (a) what he believes he can see in a reproduction of a 180-year-old painting, (b) a Facebook page, and (c) ancient maps. While our article is poorly sourced, the Amistad incident is far from obscure and finding reliable secondary sources is not difficult. I refuse to continue to argue with somebody who will not read, or cannot understand, WP:No original research. Eyes would be welcome. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 21:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Wich is not Honduras. -- Nicola Romani ( talk) 22:28, 14 January 2017 (UTC)"sailed from Havana for the port of Guanaja, in the island of Cuba"
— Page 27; Africans Taken in the Amistad: Congressional Document, Containing the Correspondence, &c., in Relation to the Captured Africans, U.S. Dept. of State, 1840.
-- Nicola Romani ( talk) 22:36, 14 January 2017 (UTC)"The Amistad is a Spanish vessel; was regularly cleared from Havana, a Spanish port in Cuba, to Guanaja, a Spanish port in the neighborood of Puerto Principe another Spanish port;"
— Page 37; Africans Taken in the Amistad: Congressional Document, Containing the Correspondence, &c., in Relation to the Captured Africans, U.S. Dept. of State, 1840.
More eyeballs are needed at Libertarian Republican; a user has inserted and reinserted content into this article that is not supported by any reliable sources. (The user is also inserting citations to the Libertarian Party's website and to a libertarian advocacy website, but even these (unacceptable) sources don't support the claims made).
More eyes on this would be appreciated. Neutrality talk 23:13, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
The following wikitext on Amhara people appears to be synthesis: "The medieval Adal Sultanate seized slaves during jihad expeditions in Christian outposts in the old provinces of Amhara, Shäwa, Fatagar, [20] and Dawaro [21]. Many of the slaves seized by Adal were assimilated, others exported or gifted to rulers of Arabia in exchange for military support [22]." It is cited to two works on expeditions in various historical multi-ethnic provinces of Ethiopia (viz. Amhara Province, Shewa, Fatagar, Dawaro); however, neither citation is population-specific (i.e., they do not indicate that the sultanate expeditions were against Amhara Christians). As such, the wikitext appears to breach WP:SYNTH since it "combines material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". Please advise. Soupforone ( talk) 05:11, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, I had to tweak the phrasing because the synthesis was even worse before. A wikiphrase attributed to Ehud R. Toledano claimed that "Amhara were a part of major Afar slave caravan trade routes from the southern and southwestern regions to the northern and eastern Ethiopia", when what Toledano actually indicates is that "the first section of this trade was in the hands of Ethiopian dealers who drove the slaves from the southern and southwestern Galla, Sidama, and Gurage principalities to the central Amhara provinces.[...] While the caravans from the area south of Showa were perhaps as large as those crossing the Sahara, the average Afar caravan consisted of thirty to fifty merchants and about two hundred slaves" [23]. That same wikiphrase was also attributed to Richard Pankhurst, who similarly writes instead that "later in the century Mähfuz, the amir of Zayla, no doubt taking advantage of the wealth and power of the port, began a series of annual incursions, into Amhara, Shäwa and Fatagar" [24]. Here too there's no mention of Afars enslaving Amhara, but rather expeditions by the Adal kingdom in the old multi-ethnic Amhara province and other zones. The only place where Pankhurst does allude to Amhara Christians is to indicate that many embraced Islam-- "'a great multitude' of Amhara Christians at his exhortation embraced Islam" [25]. Likewise, Ulrich Braukämper only mentions Adal sultanate raids in the Dawaro and Bale provinces, not by the Afars against Amahara-- "Harb Jaus, a general of the Adalite sultan Djamal al-Din (d. AD 1433), before he continued his campaigns against the Christians in Dawaro, also achieved a successful attack on Bale. Makrizi's document reports, 'So much booty fell into his hands that every poor man was given three slaves; indeed by reason of the vast numbers of these the price of slaves fell'" [26]. The foregoing is on expeditions by the Adal sultanate against old multi-ethnic provinces. Soupforone ( talk) 16:22, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Rafael Díez de la Cortina y Olaeta uses FamilySearch as a source multiple times. Is it Original Research? It's used to link to a scanned image of a passport, a scanned image of records of marriage, a census, crew lists, passport applications.-- User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 05:35, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I looked at WP:PRIMARY - it seems largely to allow primary sources - including familysearch I would assume - even while saying that they are easy to misuse.
From there I was linked to policy on primary sources in biographical articles - WP:BLPPRIMARY which states: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." - seems pretty definite against this kind of use.-- User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 18:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I noticed now that WP:BLPPRIMARY is about Biographies of living persons, which Rafael Díez is not, he died in 1939, so maybe the injunction against using public records is null. -I almost posted this in the BLP noticeboard. :/ -- User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 18:51, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I have limited the sources to just explicitly mentioning "Cold War II" and/or any other interchangeable term. To make the article less about EU/NATO–Russia relations, I added China–US and "Early usages" to balance the article. The recent addition by XavierItzm (reverted but then reinserted by me) and other additions by Fixuture had me worried. The sources added by them do not use the phrases, like "new Cold War" or "Second Cold War". Rather they used old " Cold War" and recent events as comparisons to justify inclusion of added information. Are these additions "original research"?
Also, there has been disagreements over what the article should be about. However, the subject they referred to was the EU/NATO–Russia relations, I think. Should the article discuss the term "Cold War II" or the subject describing (or described by) the term (probably EU/NATO–Russia)? -- George Ho ( talk) 17:59, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
This is about [27]. It is not clear at all what a wall around Jericho has to do with the Exodus. Wall around Jericho therefore the Exodus? Tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:20, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
Look you can argue that Bryant Wood is not a good source and I tend to agree still he is widely cited although mostly by academic theologians. The chronology is wrong but I don’t think anyone disputes that the site is the biblical Jericho. Many details match the biblical description the walls possibly destroyed by earthquake or war, then the city was burn after the harvest when the store houses where full.
What scholars dispute is that the city was destroyed by invading Israelis during the exodus. Jonney2000 ( talk) 06:12, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Is a US drone strike that killed the child of a suspected terrorist, added here, an example of collective punishment, or is this original research?
Please contribute at Talk:Collective punishment#RFC on US drone strike. Brad v 20:51, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
On an article I am working on, Iazyges, I found a source ( ISBN 9781900188470) that mentions that 1. The salt mines near to the Iazyges were owned by Rome, and 2. The Iazyges did not have salt of their own, and needed it, because they bred cattle. Would it be too far of a stretch to say that they relied upon the Romans to get this salt? I have another source (OCLC 891848847) that says that the Iazyges' trade route to the Pontic Steppe was cut off. These two factors would logically imply that the Iazyges would have to get it from the Romans. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:13, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
It seems to me that the "no original research" provision must, of necessity, exclude the summaries of every "literary work of art" (work) which I will define broadly as the plot summary of any
described in an article on Wikipedia.
Most plot summaries (or play summaries for video games) of these works are presumably written by the editor of that article at the time they create (or update) the article about the work, based upon their own memory of the plot of the work or how they played the video game. That summary has almost certainly never appeared anywhere else for that work and almost certainly has no reference to third-parties for the content of the summary.
Thus the plot or play summaries of these works are by definition original research having no third-party references at all. I have checked and there is no exception in the prohibition on original research for the summaries of the plot, or video game play, of works of art.
Therefore I think a qualifier should be added to the "no original research" provision to state that for obvious reasons of necessity (as I have stated above), the plot summary of a fiction book, play, television program (or series) or motion picture, and the play summary of a computer program is permitted to be original to Wikipedia, is permitted for this limited purpose to be original research, and to that extent is not required to contain or include references to third-party content.
In the alternative I believe it is necessary to flag every single article on Wikipedia about any fiction book, play, motion picture or television program (or television series) that contains plot summaries, or computer programs having a play summary, which are not references of, and not indicated by a reference as derived from, a third-party source, as containing forbidden (prohibited) original research. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) ( talk) 22:40, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
This is a situation where a WP:PRIMARY source is acceptable as long as no analyses or conclusions are made. Obviously this would have come up before if it were a policy problem. —DIYeditor ( talk) 23:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
Funny, but every comment here seems to be saying the exact same thing that I said but trying to dance around the rule so as to allow original research of the declaration of the plot of a work / play of a video game without calling it original research. Let me quote from the article on No Original Research:
“ | To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented... The prohibition against OR means that all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source, even if not actually attributed. The verifiability policy says that an inline citation to a reliable source must be provided for all quotations, and for anything challenged or likely to be challenged—but a source must exist even for material that is never challenged. | ” |
The WP:ABOUTSELF referenced above by someguy does not fix this problem because in that case we are still using a third party source.
You can't claim the plot summary is a primary source because it is using the work - book, film, play etc. -- as its source, and the summary isn't coming from the work, it is the Wikipedia editor's opinion of the work expressed as the summary.
The plot summary of any movie (or other work) is by definition original research, again, not sourced to a third party resource. Nothing you can find in a book, play, TV program review, or video game play review placed here, can be sourced back to anything but the editor's opinion. It is, almost always, not the summary of some published review of the film, it is itself the review and therefore it's original research.
You can tapdance around and spin-doctor this all you want, just to try to hide what your own admissions in your examples state is obvious: reviews of entertainment will almost always be first-party declarations of what the editor believes to be the plot, not a summary of what someone else said. There is no third-party reference someone can go back to and see if the summary fairly represents the conclusions of the third-party work, all we can do is look at the source work and see if the plot summary on Wikipedia matches it.
I don't see why all the spin-doctoring and tapdancing needs to be made to avoid the inevitable conclusion: plot/gameplay summaries often have no third-party sources available and sometimes original research for these items is unavoidable. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) ( talk) 10:08, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Now, if what you're saying is the original work can stand on its own as the source and then the summary can use the work as the source without requiring any prior third party material then this point should be made clear. It still sounds like an attempt to "backdoor" original research because if you didn't backdoor it you'd have to admit it was original Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) ( talk) 10:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello. People keep re-adding unsourced material on 2017 Romanian protests, as I said here: Talk:2017 Romanian protests#Unsorced material.-- 200.223.199.146 ( talk) 10:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Last 13 february I removed a unsorced claim on Printing. It was unsourced for 7 years. Then, Johnbod re-added as unsourced as it was before.-- 200.223.199.146 ( talk) 10:20, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
See my concerns on the article talk page. The main source is the user's website (which is in French), and the reference given doesn't seem to actually support the article. The user is also a user on the French wikipedia, and that seems to be his native language. I don't speak French, so I'm hoping someone here does. - Apocheir ( talk) 19:44, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
The user also has a lot of edits (on the English wikipedia) adding links to his 3d models of things to various pages, which seems a little spammy. - Apocheir ( talk) 19:48, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oviaivo's polyhedra : annoviaivo. - Apocheir ( talk) 14:42, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
I stumbled upon a huge area of WP:SYNTH: space colonization and daughter articles navigated by {{ wpspace}} and {{ Space colonization}}. The texts contain lots of plausible and referenced info: orbits, athmospheric composition, surface, minerals, etc., but often collected from various astronomical sources which do not actually discuss colonization. In my book it is all one huge synthesis to be severely pruned. I started trimming the "main" article, but I would also like some extra opinions. Staszek Lem ( talk) 18:41, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
For a long time I try to get the article Worldwide energy supply. It contains a lot of do-it-yourself-sources, that force you to start searching for the information needed. The author User:Rwbest refuses to give proper sources. Rwbest also refuses to give page numbers for easy access of the information.
The same article is removed from the Dutch Wikipedia as Own Research, and to my opinion this article is also Own Research. As the author is now plain and clear refusing to act (see: Talk:Worldwide energy supply), I give up and ask help. These unclear sources are making the article to an essay with WP:OR as you have to search for the info yourself. Are those do-it-yourself-sources acceptable? The Banner talk 16:47, 28 February 2017 (UTC) The Banner talk 16:42, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
In section 1.1 Trend growth percentages are sourced in Note 4: Compare World: Balances for 2012 and 2014. The reader can click on Balances which links to an IEA page, select region World, topic Balances and year 2012, click on Search and find Total Production 13385446 in the upper right corner. Repeating this for year 2014 gives 13805443 which is 3.1% more.
Hello, the Airports Authority of India publishes PDFs every month with traffic statistics for the airports it manages. For example, here are the passenger statistics for January and for February. Would it violate WP:SYNTH to add statistics from different PDFs, ultimately calculating, say, an airport's passenger count for the whole year? — Sunnya343✈ ( háblame • my work) 22:46, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
A new editor is inserting a fairly large volume of unreliably sourced material on Censorship by Google, cited to references that don't mention "censorship" at all. Given the WP:SYNTH issues, I'm hoping for wider attention. (In addition to the OR problems, there's also separate reliable sources issues - the same user is using opinion pieces and self-published sources that are improper as well).
More eyeballs on the article, and comments at Talk:Censorship by Google#Unreliable sources / improper self-published sources / WP:SYNTH, would be most welcome. Neutrality talk 19:54, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Smith & Wesson M&P15#Request for comment: add three instances of criminal use. Issues of original research and synthesis have been raised in discussion. The content proposed by the request for comment is a concise summary over numerous reliable sources. Participation from experienced editors familiar with our original research policies is requested. Thank you in advance. 35.164.119.4 ( talk) 17:09, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
In revising the lede of the John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories article in this edit, I also corrected an obvious misrepresentation of facts concerning the fundamental findings of the HSCA report (while reiterating and even expanding on the implications of the subset of facts given). User:Canada Jack proceeded to formulate what appeared to be WP:SYNTH statement to much the same effect as before, so I reverted (with concise references in the comments to corroborate) and followed up with a brief explanation on the talk page just to clear up any confusion. This user then counter-reverted, leaving a response on the talk page without so much as addressing the points I had raised.
At the heart of the matter is this: HSCA issued a series of findings, which are broken down into categories (so-called "paragraphs"). Each of these furthermore detail the issues considered in reaching the conclusions of said paragraph.
- Paragraph 1.B. concludes that "scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations". It goes on to discuss the studies (of these "dictabelt recordings") conducted by the commission in support of that finding. Well, it turns out now that several studies have since called into question that very evidence. Fine, and this is indeed addressed amply in our article.
- Paragraph 1.C. concludes that "the committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy". To support that finding, many connections between Oswald and various other people and groups are drawn. Nowhere, however, in this specific finding is there any reference to the acoustical evidence.
So my contention is simply this: taken as a whole, the findings of the HSCA are only partially based on the acoustical evidence, and so our article should state as much insofar as the scope of the newer revelations regarding the validity of the committee's original assessment of the dictabelt recordings is concerned. Any attempt to coalesce these findings (as User:Canada Jack did in referencing certain comments made by dissenting members) would thus be tantamount to WP:SYNTH.
Earl of Arundel ( talk) 19:20, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming. This doesn't concern the list directly, but only a small part of the lead. Participation from experienced editors familiar with our original research policies is requested. Thank you in advance. Obsidi ( talk) 22:04, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Please see Template talk:Specific#Wording for a suggestion on rewording this template message to make the purpose and meaning clearer, especially regarding the use of secondary sources. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 02:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
(Cross-posted from Talk:Racism in Africa)
69.121.8.140 has cited this for the claim that Islam introduced racism to Africa -- even though the source doesn't really discuss race or racism.
He is also trying to add material about Islam to the rest of the article even though other sources do not discuss Islam.
Making claims that a source is not explicit about, and making claims not found in sources, is original research and needs to be removed. Ian.thomson ( talk) 02:52, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
There has been some debate as to how to handle automotive production figures. This is primarily in the article List of manufacturers by motor vehicle production (see talk page discussion here [ [29]]. Related discussions have taken place on the GM [ [30]] and Toyota articles [ [31]]. The issue is how should the production volumes from various manufactures be combined. For example should Mazda numbers be added to Ford's (during the time of Ford control)? The agreed source of the numbers is the OICA. I believe all involved parties agree that this is a reliable source. The part in question is should the raw data from the OICA be combined. For example, here is the 2004 OICA data [ [32]] and the table as presented in the article with footnotes explaining the regrouping of manufacture data[ [33]]. Is it a violation of WP:NOR to take the raw data from a trusted source and regroup it in the article tables? Springee ( talk) 13:15, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Blocked proxy IP
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Many diverse reliable sources weigh in on automobile manufacturer production rankings, including reports from industry associations, industry journals, the business press, and main stream media. For a simple example, from The New York Times:
References
No one source is definitive; when reliable sources disagree among themselves, we are asked to summarize the disagreement. Rankings stated in Wikipedia voice should clarify which subsidiaries are included or excluded. Also relevant is that simple arithmetic is not original research. Further, context is important, so we cannot imply an endorsement of any one source and a definitive interpretation of that source by specifying a formula for combining manufacturers in such a way that it will settle all issues of rankings across all automotive articles. We are not industry analysts; the interpretation of the raw production numbers is best left to our sources. In addition, the article at issue might more clearly be titled "Ranking of automobile manufacturers by OICA production numbers;" as a single-source (OICA) list article it is of dubious encyclopedic value. 34.205.54.93 ( talk) 22:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Some additional context for this ORN query.
This ORN query asks an implied endorsement of a fundamentally flawed approach to sourcing claims of automobile manufacturer rankings. 34.205.54.93 ( talk) 15:44, 27 March 2017 (UTC) |
"Of note, Toyota's numbers include Daihatsu and Hino, two subsidiaries more than half owned by Toyota. Ford's numbers do not include Mazda, which it effectively controls, though it owns about a third of the company. If Mazda were added in, Ford would still be on top."
When reading that citation, one may see that Mazda WAS a Ford subsidiary/affiliate at that time, why Ford and Mazda would be listed together rather than separately as Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino. However, OICA lists Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino separately in 2003-2007 which results in Toyota being No.2 rather than No.1 in 2006 and 2007 though it usually IS No.1 'cause Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino together are larger than G.M. which is listed as No.1 which usually is wrong.
Ford and its (at that time) subsidiary/affiliate Mazda produced more than Toyota and its subsidiaries Hino and Daihatsu in 2004, which means it is usually wrong to list Toyota as No.2 and Ford as No.3 in 2004. I don't know why there has been a "mistake", is it possible to contact OICA to ask why Mazda has been listed separately from Ford though being a Ford affiliate? Björn Bergman 14:53, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
::An article drawn exclusively from a single source with dubious editorial processes is certainly highly unusual and of little encyclopedic value and probably an ill-advised effort, but if you insist on this idiosyncratic sourcing regime would you please support adding "...according to the OICA" to the title of the article so that our readers will be aware that a lowered sourcing standard is in effect, and warn our fellow editors that contributions from other reliable sources are not welcome? Our readers come to Wikipedia expecting the consensus of reliable sources, if they want the OICA numbers they can go to the OICA website. Thank you.
54.236.45.190 (
talk) 22:12, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
BjörnBergman and 54.236.45.190 are working under the belief that Mazda was a division of Ford at the time, which therefore makes it ok to add Mazda's production numbers to Ford's production numbers, ignoring how OICA ranks them separately. They make a similar case for Toyota owning Hino and Diahatsu. This is the main point that we differ on. To keep it simple, I will talk further about Ford and Mazda but the same basic argument applies to the Toyota side as well.
From the Mazda article, we learn that Ford owned 33% of Mazda shares at the time. This probably constitutes the majority for voting stock, thus giving Ford control over Mazda. However, I don't see anywhere that outright states that Ford owns Mazda. OICA seems to agree that they remained separate companies. Thus, Björn and 54.236.45.190 need to supply some proof that Ford owns Mazda. Without this proof we cannot override our source and recombined the raw numbers to provide a ranking that differs from what our source explicitly says.
Björn and 54.236.45.190 have tried putting in footnotes similar to "Ford includes Mazda which is an affiliate of the Ford Motor Company as of 2008. However, OICA lists Ford and Mazda separately." This is still trying to declare that Ford owns Mazda - without proof. An acceptable alternative would be something like "OICA lists Ford and Mazda separately. ORANISATION_XXX lists Mazda as part of Ford to rank Ford as #XXX[supporting ref]" - with a supporting reference of course.
Note also that there is an edit war on these articles. WP:BRD advises us to restore the original and then for both sides to refrain from further editing until discussions have been resolved., Björn and 54.236.45.190 keep reinstating their claims and Springee and myself revert it back to the original text. I fear that both sides have broken BRD. Stepho talk 23:07, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
I believe this is purely original research. The introduction of the Microscope article contains the sentence:
Other major types of microscopes are the electron microscope (both the transmission electron microscope and the scanning electron microscope), the ultramicroscope, and the various types of scanning probe microscope.
I can't find a source for this, and it is not discussed or mentioned anywhere else in the article. The word "ultramicroscope" only appears in the lead of the article. The Ultramicroscope article does not make a similar claim about it being a "major type of microscope." Please feel free to source and/or discuss if you thnk this is not original research.
Talk:Microscope#Request_for_comment_on_ultramicroscope
Thank you, -- 2601:648:8503:4467:F4B3:6D6C:9DCC:DC06 ( talk) 21:07, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
User:GramereC is posting original research to the Samuel Fraunces article. She claims to be a descendant of Fraunces, and asks that others stay out of the way for a week so she can complete her work (approaching 200 edits): User talk:GramereC#3RR.
Yesterday, User:Tuckerresearch cautioned her on this behavior, and pointed out her conflicts of interest: Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?
I think it is time for an administrator to intervene.
Thank you. BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 20:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
User:GramereC – a.k.a. User:Coroinn, a.k.a. User:CRCole; a.k.a. User:71.58.75.28, a.k.a. User:166.217.248.24, a.k.a. User:72.69.56.203, a.k.a. User:69.86.246.30, a.k.a. User:71.58.105.199 – has flagrantly used the Samuel Fraunces article to disseminate her theories about Fraunces’s parentage, ancestry and descendants; to discredit the documentary record and legitimate scholarship on Fraunces; to promote conspiracy theories about and imply racists motives to those with whose work she disagrees; and to promote her self-published Fraunces biography.
Some of her most outrageous claims and accusations have been made on the talk page. But this complaint will be limited to original research added to the article. Below are some examples of original research added during periods in which she was the only editor of content:
User:Tuckerresearch confronted User:GramereC on some of her most outrageous and undocumented claims. Talk:Samuel Fraunces#Edward Fraunces → Samuel Fraunces? Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?, and User:GramereC deleted the items. But how can Wikipedia tolerate this behavior? BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 18:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
User:GramereC – a.k.a. User:Coroinn, a.k.a. User:CRCole; a.k.a. User:71.58.75.28, a.k.a. User:166.217.248.24, a.k.a. User:72.69.56.203, a.k.a. User:69.86.246.30, a.k.a. User:71.58.105.199 – has flagrantly used the Samuel Fraunces article to disseminate her theories about Fraunces’s parentage, ancestry and descendants; to discredit the documentary record and legitimate scholarship on Fraunces; to promote conspiracy theories about and imply racists motives to those with whose work she disagrees; and to promote her self-published Fraunces biography.
Where has this happened??? again here is Boring History Guy going off on anyone who tries to remove anyting he says about Fraunces.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Some of her most outrageous claims and accusations have been made on the talk page. But this complaint will be limited to original research added to the article. Below are some examples of original research added during periods in which she was the only editor of content:
So if we use the talk page Boring History Guy gets angry and turns everything personal.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
All three things are true but have often been removed because YOU Boring Old History Guy say so. That is fine remove the birth certificate because the dates vary remove burials for the same reason. Which is what you do. Even when it is replaced with some other work you blank it out. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Again much of this was removed by Boring Old History Guy. Not corrected with any type of note added. Much of this text is not mine but is what was there to begin with by some unsigned editor who is never identified. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
User:Tuckerresearch confronted User:GramereC on some of her most outrageous and undocumented claims. Talk:Samuel Fraunces#Edward Fraunces → Samuel Fraunces? Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?, and User:GramereC deleted the items. But how can Wikipedia tolerate this behavior? BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 18:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I think this recent round of edits can be researched on their own. Again If you are going to use other Tertiary sources such as the museum pre visit or the booklet Kym Rice did for the FTM and SR you need to look at what references they used to begin with. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Prime problems are representing the current building as having been there since colonial times. It was a rebuild. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
The portrait that FTM uses was purchased at auction in 1913 and although they say it is Fraunces they offer no provenance. The only way to verify where it came from is from SR published minutes. The way the portrait is continually put up front without recognizing that there is another earlier published sketch of Samuel Fraunces provided by family. Plus written description in conflict with the description is reprehensible in that they are in need of reproof. There are other places where the documents are just as reprehensible.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Limiting the secondary sources acceptable in your eyes necessitate exposing the primary documents because the primary documents are in conflict. Most of these conclusions were reached many years ago. You actual took WEB DuBois statement and had it written that Fraunces had no African blood. That just is not true all anyone has to do is read the final letter in the discussion. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
You continue to go back to Fraunces Will and you do not give a viable source to find it. Then when I place one in your text as correction you take it back out. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
User:BoringHistoryGuy on this Samuel Fraunces article is an entire section that has NOTHING published about it. This poisoning attempt – if it occurred – would have taken place in late June 1776 at Richmond Hill, Washington's headquarters in Manhattan. The housekeeper there was a widow named Mary Smith,[85] although there were other female servants. Fraunces's tavern was about two miles away and provided catered meals for the general and his staff. The reference included here is for the wrong thing.
This Wikipedia article then goes on to argue why Lossing's story is incorrect based on the assertion that the events took place at Richmond Hill. This is original work.GramereC 01:45, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Particularly when a response is interleaved with the complaint. Editors here will not be able to work through all of the above content disputes. The only thing that is clear is that the two editors completely disagree on the content and that they cannot communicate with each other. GramereC, you cannot insist that only your version be included in the article. User:BoringHistoryGuy is a respected editor here and seems to have very good knowledge of the general area. If you cannot reach agreement with him on what should be included in the article, or find other editors who back your version, then you just cannot force your version of things into the article. We do things by consensus here.
I strongly urge you to write up your own version of the article in your own user space, then we'll be able to properly judge both the overall content of the "two" articles and individual sentences and paragraphs. If you are only willing to give us a choice between "your article" or "his article", my feeling is that editors will choose "his article." Smallbones( smalltalk) 20:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I have left as much of the old article as possible and if you look at just the Phebe edits you can see that. Boring History Guy wants his version and no other. You keep insisting that this is a thing between he and I which is not my feeling at all. I have not insisted mine is the only version and if you go back and look that is true. Boring History Guy has the agenda it is not me. I removed sources referring to me or my publications. Tried to leave his stuff there as much as possible. GramereC 23:26, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe I can do that tomorrow. The article right now has both sides which was never the problem.
Currently the only thing left is those numbers for the Presidential household which have no citiation. They are obviously the work of someone adding things up themselves but since there is no cite it is hard to tell what they are saying it is on the talk page under presidential household. Mt Vernon sent a list of known sources to cite the size of household and none match the numbers given.
As far as your consensus goes send it to an admin or an arbitrator. The gang of three is ridiculous.GramereC 23:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Ok it is all in the sand box I think I got everything folks sent me overnight. I left spaces where I have issues not sure how you wanted that. There are still an awful lot of BAD REFERENCES. GramereC 17:15, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
And then this: I suspect User:GramereC is posting under a new alias.[8] User:2600:8803:3400:8200:2590:8c3c:59a7:70f4 today added details to the article that only someone intimately familiar with her work would know. (Note also the deceptive edit summary.) BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:52, 7 April 2017 (UTC) Is he talking about the overnight puncuation and text corrections someone did? They were fine.
I was just wondering about my new article The Old Axolotl. I inserted the following claim there: "It is Dukaj's first book, and therefore longest work, translated to English as of this date." I also added the claim "The Old Axolotl is the first book of Dukaj published in English (in 2015)" to Jacek Dukaj. It is true (cue shaking of the head, I know), but I haven't found any reference stating so directly, I base this claim on the fact that the list of his works I (cited [54]) shows clearly which of his works were translated to English. There are only four, it is the only one classified under novels/novellas and the other three are classified as short stories. At what point, I wonder, do we leave WP:BLUE and enter WP:OR? Is my conclusion that this is his only book translated to English, and his longest work to be translated yet, OR, or BLUE? If you reply here, do ping me back. Cheers, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:42, 22 March 2017 (UTC)