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-library science is not a reliable source in this respect
[1] claims
Relata refero regarding
Denial of the Ukrainian famine (1933) according to:
and keeps removing the fact and the sources from the article. Any thoughts?
Also, once this is here are sources like for example:
reliable sources that would define the subject unlike Relata refero claims the article is a violation of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR and WP:NPOV?
Thanks!-- Termer ( talk) 02:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) Hello, as a contributor to this article, I personally find the above entry repuslive. Here's why:
In 1932, soviet authorities started taking away grain from people and by 1933 those people were starving to death. The people in Ukraine who were dieing started using the word "Голодомор" - "Holodomor" which is derived from the word "holod" "голод" (hunger) and "moryty" "морити" (to cause to suffer). "Holodomor" described the situation that they faced - starvation, unless they joined the collective farms. There was a holod, a famine, throughout Ukraine, and people were starving in the streets. The soviet union was exporting grain in record quantities. Hence the idea of "moryty" - using food as a weapon.
More than ten years later, a word started creeping into the English vernacular - holocaust. It was from the greek word for sacrifice by fire - holokauston, and referred to Hitler's extermination policies. This word did not become common in English until it was connected to the word "genocide" in the 1950s, and the whole horror of Nazism sunk in. The word "Holodomor" is now becoming widespread, as the horrible results of communism are starting to sink in.
Although the words "Holodomor" and "Holocaust" may seem similar in modern English, they are in no way related. Although these two events may seem equally horrible in nature, they are in no way related. Although the articles about Holodomor Denial and Holocaust Denial may seem related, they are not. There has been no attempt to link the two. Please do not try to read into any reasons or find any hidden agendas by any editors. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 09:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Allah, Yahweh, and Vishna to you also, my friend. What you may call an atrocity, others may call a work in progress. While it is difficult to organize such a vast topic as Holodomor Denial into one easy article, editors have taken on the task with a steady determination. Please help to improve the article, but please do not use phrases like "silly little". Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 09:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I am developing this article and I use an authoritative and comprehensive published lexicon to cite the existence of borrowed words in Tamil language
Some people who dont accept the lexicon's authority are threatening to delete my work and have extensively tagged my article with "citation necessary" tags. Kindly help. Kris ( talk) 18:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This Sept 29 Business week article] evidently used an earlier version of Community Reinvestment Act for it's four of six of its most prominent links. One of those sources has been kicked off the wiki article because it is a law firm serving clients who profit off the Act and its statistics were obviously biased. The Business week article is just being used in external links right now, which I'd like to delete. But more importantly I have a problem with it being used as an opinion source or even worse to back up credibility of the law firm's piece. Anyway, I haven't noticed this issue before so I thought I'd bring it up and let people chew on it. Carol Moore 15:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
Just to explain. The white paper by the law firm Traiger & Hinckley has been repeatedly removed from Community Reinvestment Act by Carolmooredc, because she claims (without evidence) that it serves clients who profit from the CRA. There is no evidence that the writer for the BusinessWeek article used Wikipedia for a source apart from the fact that it is addresses the same topic and quotes other (well known) sources on the subject, some of whom are also quoted in the Wikipedia article. Note that the BusinessWeek article is not being used as a source for any statements of fact. It would only be used as a source to observe that the viewpoint expressed in it does exist in the community. She also repeatedly removes links to other articles that dispute her position, this BusinessWeek article being an example. Sources that conform to her views are given more leeway. Please also see the entry on the Manhattan Institute above on this page. lk ( talk) 15:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
This site is being used as a reference source on a WP:BLP. The majority of the sites content is self published work and the site provides no publisher oversite or verification of material. Because of the nature of the content, I would go so far as to say it should be blacklisted as a source for any article on WP because of its lack of reliability. Please see it's sourcing use at Michael Riconosciuto and the open AN/I.-- Javier MC 07:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
This was reported by a News Corporation news portal about Putin emerging as a gay icon, so I added it to the relevant section in the Vladimir Putin article, but User:Setraspdopaduegedfa keeps removing this [3], [4] claiming that it is "not a reliable source". Martintg ( talk) 07:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
The site is http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com ; the author is Joe Pelletier, a published author. I'm thinking of using this post as a reference, because of the fact that it's a published author writing about the subject in question. Does this blog/author pass as reliable? Thanks, Maxim (talk) 20:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
This site [5] is one of the biggest punk rock webzines with constant news updates and hundreds of album reviews and interviews. Can this be regarded as a reliable source when determining the notability of a punk rock band?
Strummer25 (
talk) 10:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
A quick scan of the webpage at thepunksite shows about 99% of the articles as being authored by the same person: Bobby Gorman; that alone should send up a red flag. Furthermore, the format of the thepunksite site practically screams "blog". I don't see how this could qualify is a "Reliable" source except in an article on thepunksite.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 10:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
--
BruceGrubb (
talk) 00:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
We have very stringent policies and guidelines related to reliable sources, but how these apply to Bibliographic articles? Is the threshold for including a source in a bibliographic article any different than for any other article in Wikipedia? Some examples: Bibliography_of_work_on_Objectivism, Richard_Nixon_bibliography. And how we do apply standards for inclusion in bibliographies about living people? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that there is much latitude in the policies of Wikipedia. Jossi's question, "What are the standards for bibliographical articles on living persons?" seems to be pretty well answered in WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:RS. There may be some newspaper articles about a person, but these generally are variable both in the research and in the argument. A critical book (an "academic" text for want of a better term) generally has followed a process of collecting evidence, which may include newspaper articles, testing the claims made in newspaper articles and elsewhere against the evidence, and drawing conclusions about the subject. Other books may critique that position, using a different set of evidentiary frameworks and coming to a different conclusion. In both cases though, the process is thorough and uses the process of dialectic to arrive at positions. Newspaper articles may not do that. Whilst some journalists are impeccable in their research, others are not so and the history of journalism is littered with the detritus of these weapons of mass delusion.
So I don't see the objective of a bibliography as "to present a balanced collection of as many relevant sources as is reasonable for a single section/article", as NVO claims above. That statement contains two words which would only add to debate: "balanced" and "relevant". These are selections an editor will make. As I see it, Wikpedia presents information and arguments made by others who have spent some time and effort in their work. It's not an archive; it doesn't fulfill the role a presidential library would. At the same time, the WP:BLP overrides the argument that everything can be included in a bibliography. A really close reading of those policies does clarify most of the issues. Errol V ( talk) 11:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Silly question. I wrote answers to the original questions at the top of the thread. I made the points about newspapers and magazines, but it seem you did not read those points. Newspapers and magazines come down the list in terms of Wikiepedia policy. Statements like "they are generally considered..." are weasel statements; because they are not generally considered. Making statements like that shows that you are not interested in a discussion; rather, you just like to pretend that your speak for the authorities, whoever that might be. But you don't. There are great reasons to exclude them from bibliographies; I've elaborated on those reasons above. Errol V ( talk) 11:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Is Practically Edible a RS? I want to use this page. According to its page, it's the World's Biggest Food Encyclopedia with over 10,000 "detailed" entries. The sources page is here. I'm pretty sure it is, but I thought I'd get a second opinion. Thanks ahead of time. Intothewoods29 ( talk) 22:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I tried to verify the following material from the rice article.
The Encyclopedia Britannica—on the subject of the first certain cultivated rice—holds that:<ref>''rice''. Encyclopaedia Britannica 2008.</ref>
The origin of rice culture has been traced to India in about 3000 BC. Rice culture gradually spread westward and was introduced to southern Europe in medieval times. With the exception of the type called upland rice, the plant is grown on submerged land in the coastal plains, tidal deltas, and river basins of tropical, semitropical, and temperate regions. The seeds are sown in prepared beds, and when the seedlings are 25 to 50 days old, they are transplanted to a field, or paddy, that has been enclosed by levees and submerged under 5 to 10 cm (2 to 4 inches) of water, remaining submerged during the growing season.
However, when I consulted Encyclopedia Britannica, this quote was nowhere to be found.
I also tried to verify the following text:
Bruce Smith of the Smithsonian Institution advises caution on the Chinese rice hypothesis.<ref name=Harrington>"Earliest Rice" by Spencer P.M. Harrington in ''Archaeology'' June 11, 1997. Archaeological Institute of America (1997).</ref> No morphological studies have been done to determine whether the grain was domesticated.<ref name=Harrington/> According to Smith such a rice would have larger seeds compared to the wild varieties, and would have a strong rachis or spine for holding grain.<ref name=Harrington/>
However, when I checked the source in question I couldn't find any mention of Bruce Smith or his statements.
Is this allowed? Exactly what is the user who made these edits trying to pull?
Also, this PDF is cited as a source for Indian consumption of rice by 8000 BCE.
This source strikes me as fringe, not only because the 8000 BCE Indian rice date is an outlier well outside of the mainstream, but also because it gives a 3700–2000 BC date for the Vedas, an antedating associated with fringe nationalist claims. Satyam E. Jayate ( talk) 12:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been writing aviation-related articles for about a decade now. During that time I've come to rely on Joe Baugher's extensive list of American Military Aircraft. This list consists mostly of articles created by collecting information from other sources, essentially identical to the process used to create articles for the Wikipedia. They tend to be much longer than suitable for a Wikipedia article, but the creation process is similar, and the results excellent.
On several occasions I have been able to check his references after the fact. I have yet to find a single error that isn't in the original source. The simple fact that he includes his references in the articles is a good indicator of their quality, IMHO. Further, when I conducted a straw poll over on the Aviation project, every one of the "known suspects" agreed that JB was a good source.
So why am I here? Well during an FA on the F-20, the article was failed because it used JB as a source. I pointed out that he is well known, so much so that he even has his own wiki article. That resulted in a more focused counterclaim, that no one has referenced his aircraft articles, and therefore they fail the SPS requirement. I have never seen this before, generally when someone is a well known and trusted author you are free to use their works for references in spite of the fact that not every single thing they have written has not been mentioned by someone else. This entire point seemed, well, nuts.
To add to my confusion, it seems that the source is being failed for all the wrong reasons. As I see it, SPS is an attempt to weed out low-quality references, for the simple reason that many SPS's fall into the low-quality category. But JB's writings absolutely do not. And the criterion right above SPS is "Reliable sources", which states "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.", a label that his works fit to a T.
Soooo, which is it? In my opinion, Reliable trumps SPS. Further, IMHO, that SPS's primary concern is weeding out low-quality sources like moon-hoax conspiracy sites, which are generally SPS, and not to weed out high-quality sources just because they are SPS.
Am I interpreting this correctly?
Maury Markowitz ( talk) 18:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
The sources in this article need a proper fisking, and the unreliable ones removed. the skomorokh 18:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, wondering whether Amazon.com is usable as an inline citation, such as at I Want You, I Need You, I Love You. I've been going through song stubs to remove copyright violations and obviously unreliable sources (blogspot, tripod, etc.) and a reasonable number of Amazon.com cites keep turning up. I haven't actually removed them because I suppose Amazon.com is fairly accurate about their listing data. Still, it doesn't look very encyclopedic to be citing a sales listing. Seeking additional opinions. Durova Charge! 10:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Many of the Wikipedia guidelines are worded as such that they disallow print interviews, including bios and other promotional/publicity materials, where someone is, in a sense, talking about themselves, but allow an interview if the subject "Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast across a national radio or TV network". In other words, not only it that more notable, but more reliable. My question is at what point should common sense kick in and an editor be able to cite an interview with the subject of an article as a reliable source no matter what the media? Example - An article on an actor has a "claim" that the actor wanted to be like another actor. Now to back this up an editor needs to cite a reliable source. To me the best source would be an interview with that actor - irregardless of the format. And by "interview" I mean the person in question is talking about themselves, something that the current guidelines seem to frown upon. I can understand why the guidelines are there in this case - "hype" provided by a studio, label, publicist or even the subject of an article is not always reliable. However if it something "common sense" such as "Who influenced you?" or "What is your favorite song?" why would the actual person not be a reliable source? Soundvisions1 ( talk) 00:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I am engaged in a dispute with another editor on this talk page about the reliability of sources for the article. Although I am not innocent for remaining calm in the discussion, the editor has responded in an aggressive attitude and removed these sources from the article on grounds that they are contentious material about a living person. He has also stated that some of the sources constitute original research, and do not bear direct relevance to the living person in question.
There are a few other editors involved in the dispute, and who have been accused of Meat Puppetry by this editor, of trying to sabotage or defame the article. Because I got involved in trying to reconcile the use of sources for the article, I have also been included in the Meat Puppetry report. Because the other editor appears to be very passionate and accusatory in his responses (despite having a good knowledge of Wikipedia guidelines), I question the neutrality of the article. What we need is a neutral third party to weigh the arguments, to determine the reliability and relevance of sources, and to determine if there is NPOV in the article.
Thank you for your help. Rabicante ( talk) 00:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Can acclaimedmusic.net be considered a reliable source for listing an album's awards and accolades? Google Books shows the site is mentioned in The Music Internet Untangled: Using Online Services to Expand Your Musical Horizons, ISBN 1932340025, but I'm not so sure that's enough to make the site a source with a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks, Spellcast ( talk) 23:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
http://voice-compass.com/english/main/home.html seems like a "who's who"-type publication for the voice communication industry. So far, we have no idea where the original information for the article, "More Efficiencies in Automated Calls by Adaptive Audio" from Chapter 6: "Summary and Editor´s Recommendations", came from, nor to what degree it has been edited for publication in this book. See discussion: Talk:Adaptive_Audio#Establishing_WP:N_and_WP:V. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
The article Singapore Airlines fleet contains sprawling lists cataloguing the registration numbers, dates of delivery and first flights, and other info about every aircraft in Singapore Airlines' fleet. Setting aside the issue of whether wikipedia should be hosting this type of stuff, I'd like opinions on the sources of this information. It's not obvious from the citations in the article, but the editor who supports the inclusion of this material says that the data on individual airlines comes from http://airlinerlist.com/ and http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Singapore%20Airlines.htm. These look like self-published fan sites to me. What do people here think? Do these sources meet the requirements of WP:RS, and can they be used as citations for the detailed info these tables: Singapore_Airlines_fleet#Full_fleet_by_delivery_date, Singapore_Airlines_fleet#Current_fleet_by_aircraft_registration_number, Singapore_Airlines_fleet#Aircraft_to_be_delivered_by_registration_number? Yilloslime (t) 16:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
On the Violet Blue page a section about VB's attempt to file a restraining order against WP editor BenBurch was removed for WP:Note. After the removal, an article was published in sfweekly that covers the issue. So whether the material gets added back in seems to hinge upon whether sfweekly is a reliable source. Editor Tabercil notes on the discussion page for violet blue that sfweekly is used at least 475 times on wikipedia. SFWEEKLY is a well established publication, with significant ad revenues, professional staff, and both RL and Online circulation. Here's the sfweekly page, http://www.sfweekly.com/2008-08-20/news/sex-columnist-violet-blue-tries-to-restrain-online-foes/ Any thoughts? C4VC3 ( talk) 02:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Bicycle Kick article, the following link was added as a source: [18]
I am completely dubious about this statement and the source. Wikipedia does not know whether "El Mercurio" newspaper has its "Letters to the Editor" previously peer-reviewed. Also, the "mentioning" of a certain person named "Eduardo Bustos Alister" as the person to source clearly shows that the Wikipedist that included this "Letter to the Editor" citation did not even take notice of the actual person who wrote the letter: "Pedro Leguina Eguia." In other words, to help both you and me summarize the information:
I think these things qualify for this link to be taken out and for the statement that it sourced to be deleted. Nonetheless, I would like to hear the opinions of people here first.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 13:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Kauffner ( talk · contribs) has been inserting material into Dreams from My Father, sourced to The American Thinker. I think that despite its vaguely scholarly air, this source is questionable: I don't see evidence of fact-checking on that site, and I'd certainly say that the claim being promoted (that Barack Obama did not in fact write his acclaimed memoir) falls into the category of an exceptional claim, thus requiring an exceptional source — which this isn't. If this claim gets picked up by mainstream media, then it can be included as a "controversy" — but the views of one writer on a highly partisan website don't constitute a controversy. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
This is being used as a ref on a controversial article that has seen a lot of edit wars and am curious if it can be described as a RS, IMO it is an overly long blog. It is claimed it is a word for word account of a book ISBN 9780955806902 I have searched for the book in a few places and can't find it. BigDunc Talk 18:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
In Community Reinvestment Act it is being challenged that Howard Husock's article The Trillion-Dollar Bank Shakedown That Bodes Ill for Cities in the Manhattan Institute's City Journal (January 1, 2000) is a reliable source for facts because the author is the Vice President of the Institute, as well as a contributing editor to City Journal. However, the Journal does have an editor and according to his bio, Husock was formerly the director of case studies in public policy and management at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. He is a prolific writer on housing and urban policy issues. Husock is most recently the author of The Trillion-Dollar Housing Mistake, a collection of his City Journal essays, and of the Reason Foundation study Repairing the Ladder: Toward a New Housing Policy Paradigm. His work has appeared in periodicals such as the Wall Street Journal, Public Interest, The New York Times, Policy Review, and Reason. In 1999, Husock co-authored the study "Keeping Kalamazoo Competitive" for the City of Portgage, Michigan, an examination of proposed tax-based sharing and urban growth boundaries for the Kalamazoo metro area. Husock has been a speaker at housing and urban policy forums sponsored by the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation, the California Department of Housing and Community Development, the Massachusetts Department of Communities and Development, and the Urban Development Institute. If this isn't good enough ref for a paragraph full of factoids, I don't know what is :-) Carol Moore 15:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
If I can paraphrase the above, City Journal should be viewed as a biased source. At best it as reliable as an opinion piece in the New York Times, and if used as a source, the source of the information should be noted in line. Is that essentially correct? lk ( talk) 16:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have no general problem with the use of this article (elsewhere it's cited as a book) or author.
I have a specific problem: Husock asserts that the US Senate Banking Committee found in 2000 that various left-wing advocacy groups had made, as of 2000, $9.5 billion in fees out of a law called the Community Reinvestment Act (won't go into CRA specifics here). Suffice it to say, that is an absolutely stunning amount of money. That of course does not mean that it's not true. But I can find no other mention of this, can't find the senate banking committee finding, etc...
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof, so I don't think Husock's assertion about this finding is sufficient. As far as i can tell, he does not provide a citation in his book for this information (if he does, i invite the guy who cites the book and presumably has a copy to furnish it) and i can find no information to this effect anywhere on the interwebs that is not sourced to Mr. Husock. On this specific matter, i think a citation to the "Senate Banking Committee finding" is required to make the claim.
There is a disagreement with a user over the use of eurovision.tv as a source of information for Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest. It is the official website of the contest and includes a history section. The other user is claiming that this is a POV violation since we are only using this website to source a fact. He says that it is not the official stance of the contest and that some IT person wrote it so it cannot be trusted. He also claims that the sites disclaimer voids any information from being reliable. There was an error on the site, so I sent an email, they acknowledged the error and corrected it. This did not please the user (even though it was something he complained about) as he now thinks that it cannot be trusted because they change things because of emails. We then tracked down "the official history" book of the contest [20], but the user does not "trust" the author. So are we right to be arguing for these sources? Grk1011/Stephen ( talk) 22:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I explained in details on the YU ECS Talk page that eurovision.tv contains some heavy factual errors. Before going to the Talk page please note: I used many abbreviations and terms which not everyone may be familiar with: "Jugovizija" was the Yugoslav national pre-selection, SFRY is Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, while FRY is Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Both called themselfes "Yugoslavia", but the international community didnt recognize the latter as a legal succesor, but treated it as a brand new country. Hence, I see no reason why these two different political entities should be merged in a single article. Also, User:Grk1011 mentions that eurovision.tv corrected some of its mistakes. I visited the site today and first I noticed that Extra Nena is not listed under SFRY (maybe thats what Grk was refering to), but I refreshed the page in the browser, and that entry re-appeared. I dont understand what is this, maybe its due to web cache. I cleand the cache from my browser, and Extra Nena appears. Also, the eurovision.tv's "history by country" section contains only "Yugoslavia" without having separate SFRY and FRY entries. What they corrected, I dont understand? Extra Nena is still listed as participant under the SFRY's flag , although on May 9 1992 when that year's ESC took place, that country was definetly dead. -- Dzole ( talk) 16:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
This documentary is being used as a source in the Saladin article. It is being used to insert some POV claims and wild phrases into the article such as "the Islamic world had done nothing to start the offensive" (the "offensive" being the First Crusade), and "The Muslim culture lay in ruins for at least one hundred and four years". I tried to remove those phrases but another editor reverted my edit, saying that the source "is reliable". I have not seen the documentary, but the imdb.com reviews of it are not encouraging. Quotes from various reviews: "funded mostly by Iranian state oil and mining companies, this documentary is dazzling in its presentation, but careless about the historical facts"; "tendentious"; "propagandizing"; an "infomercial"; "mostly propaganda"; "pseudo documentary"; "Great cinematography but biased"; "there is a decidedly pro-Islam bias pervading this film"; "don't take the "historical facts" too seriously"; "the director prostituted himself to covert politics", and so on. Using a TV documentary as a source is risky at the best of times, but this production seems decidedly unsuitable to be used as one. Meowy 19:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Could use some more eyes on this whole page, but of course the most recent stuff is at the bottom. Questions regarding usage of primary vs. secondary sources for sourcing in the article, as well as other issues. Cirt ( talk) 13:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like feedback on whether the two self-published sources deleted here are legitimate primary sources for a few fairly minor details of the views of Bates method proponents, in the Bates method article. It is being argued that the notability of these specific sources has not been established; however, there is at least evidence of the general notability of current Natural Vision Educators (see the two sources immediately preceding the second reference which was deleted.) PSWG1920 ( talk) 21:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I have looked at the edit and the websites that were in them, and I agree with the deletion. That is, those sites do not appear to me to meet the criteria in
WP:V and
WP:RS. The authors of each of the two websites make explicit that they are expressing only their personal opinions and any formal expertise that those authors might have is not immediately apparent. As a side note, the now-deleted sources appear to me to be secondary not primary sources of Bates' method. A description of the Bates method should source Bates' original presentation of the method (the primary source) or an RS that summarizes or describes it (a secondary source).
— James Cantor (
talk) 14:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
A group of CfD deletions has started to revolve around the use of reliable sources about works of fiction. As part of one CfD, for example, this source, which describes the series as starring "Tony Shalhoub as an obsessive-compulsive cop named Adrian Monk" was used as part of an effort to justify including the character Adrian Monk in a now-deleted Category:Fictional obsessive-compulsives. The CfD in question boiled down to the question of the sources provided addressing the WP:OR issues raised by the nominator and other participants who advocated for deletion. After further discussion at this DRV, the issue seems to boil down to two reasons offered by Kbdank71, the closing administrator, for why the sources provided do not trump the claim of original research:
Can anyone here offer any guidance as to how these sources should have been treated in this case, and the general question of treating newspaper and magazine articles about works of fiction as reliable sources? (Note: I had originally posted this at WT:RS and received the suggestion to pass the request here). Alansohn ( talk) 13:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
A minor but seemingly intractable dispute has arisen at Talk:Sawston. Although there is some history here, it’s simplest not to bring it up (it’s on the talk page if you feel the need). The question for this board is this: Is Christ Church South Cambs (CCSC) part of the Church of England (COE) (i.e. Anglican Church), or not? The sources provided by each side appear to be contradictory. I thought it best to bring it up here for help in weighing the sources.
I’m filing this on behalf of the two main disputants (if that’s a word). There are other issues involved, but I think it hinges on the relative reliability of the sources, which is why I brought it here. I originally came into the dispute to try to stop an edit war, but have slowly come to agree more with one than with the other, so I no longer consider myself an impartial outside opinion.
The sources below were summarized (IMHO accurately, but I could be wrong) by Petemyers ( talk · contribs), who believes CCSC is a part of COE. For what it’s worth, I agree. Cuckoosnest ( talk · contribs) believes it is not. I believe both sides’ objections to the others’ references are presented here, but I’m notifying both editors I’ve brought this here, so they can correct me if I am wrong.
So, based on these dueling sources, is either side basing their argument on dubious sources? The article is about Sawston, so I really hesitate to bring up the fact that there is some disagreement about this in the article itself, per WP:UNDUE. And it seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to just remove denomination from all the other churches in the list as a compromise.
Finally, this is my first time posting to WP:RSN I didn’t know it existed until a surprisingly short time ago , so if I’ve misunderstood the nature of the board, let me know early and I’ll move it. -- barneca ( talk) 18:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
The Fresh expressions website doesn't mention CCSC. I know that at one point Tim Chapman was talking about leaving the CofE - I'm not sure whether the fact that he was ordained as CofE means that his church is part of the CofE. The crosslinks page is one which was written by TC. All churches differ, I'm not sure what characterises a 'new style' church. I don't believe that CCSC are financed by the Ely Diocese. I don't understand why the Ely diocese can't simply update their website to include CCSC. Cuckoosnest ( talk) 13:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC) Cuckoosnest
I've noticed that just about every game show article has a cite to at least one self-written fansite. See, for example, the links at the bottom of Three on a Match (game show). We have this and this as sources. Clearly, these are just personal websites, although the first one at least looks more reputable. Similarly, a while back I noticed that Legends of the Hidden Temple was using a Geocities page as a source, because a user claimed that such sites were pretty much the only sources available for the historical aspects of the show. Even longer-lasting shows like To Tell the Truth and High Rollers were using personal game show fansites as sources. In short, my question is: What do you do when the only sources that can give you such information are someone's personal website such as this? I don't think that there are that many "traditional" reliable sources, in print or otherwise, that pertain to the lesser-known game shows, so what should we do? Also, am I right in simply removing these (supposedly) unreliable sources from the articles entirely? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ( Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
The issue has been discussed at:
A major source for Sarah Palin email hack is an anonymous letter posted on the blog of Michele Malkin. " The story behind the Palin e-mail hacking". The letter, purportedly from a reader, explains some of the events that occurred on 4chan.org, apparently a locus of the hacking efforts. The letter cites an email posted under a pseudonym on that board, and makes various assertions about the intentions of people involved in the hacking. So far as I'm aware, everyone involved in the matter is still alive and at least one is named, so there is a WP:BLP component. Malkin is a political partisan with no known expertise in hacking, emails, or 4chan.org. I contend that this blog posting is not a suitable source for factual assertions about living people and related to an ongoing political campaign. Other editors say that the blog is reliable in this matter. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(Disclaimer: I used Malkin's blog to post a lengthy account of the facts at
Anonymous (group) and defended it on the discussions linked above) The indictment
[21] shows him confessing to all the events the jury has charged them with all the events, just like they are described on Malkin's post before anyone but the hacker himself could have knowledge of them (specially point 8 on page 2). The anonymous post that is described on Malkin's blog is most probably true, but there is no hard proof of that, so I understand if it has to be removed for BLP concerns. P.D.: duuuuuude, I think that his indictment is based on the post that is quoted at Malkin's blog. I think that the judge has actually based his indictment on Malkin's blog o_O --
Enric Naval (
talk) 02:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I think its rather unfair to discuss this without at least having the courtesy to mention it to myself.
Considering some articles use references to Geocities pages and many link to transient news stories, I would disagree with claims that these are not reliable sources STRONGLY or that the matter is resolved. -- Gibnews ( talk) 15:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
No, this is not a reliable source. Protonk ( talk) 13:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate a second opinion on this issue. User:Gibnews runs a Gibraltar-based news website [22], which he has used as reference or primary source in various occasions in the past. At the moment, there is an ongoing content dispute centered on this particular issue, whether he should be allowed to use this website as a reliable source, which he uses to back up his edits (many of the published pieces seem to be official press releases from Gibraltar local government). Link to dispute here. Regards, -- Asterion talk 09:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
This is a free service, providers enter data into their own area, we simply index and present it. Unlike traditional media, content is presented exactly as provided. There are no editorial changes, comment, or delay in publishing. If you find any of the content offensive or inaccurate, please take this matter up with the CONTENT PROVIDER directly. Should you consider content to be defamatory, or illegal, please instruct your lawyers to contact our legal representatives Phillips & Co
Is the Anniston Star ( homepage), in its present form, a “reliable source”? (It was once a commercial newspaper, but has been transformed into a non-profit teaching paper.) — SlamDiego ←T 22:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
For "pop" music I thought a mention in at least Rolling Stone or NME would be needed to show notability, or ofcourse the music sections of newspapers of record. Are there new RSes these days, and do they include: absolutepunk.net, melodic.net, altpress.com, and starpulse.com? -- Jeandré, 2008-10-19 t23:56z
Is "Directory of Georgian National Biography" a reliable source. The biographies don't look professionally written to me and often have typos however the website does have a well known scholar Dr. Ronald Grigor Suny on its "advisory board". I ask because one of the biographies on that site is being used in the WP:BLP of Aslan Abashidze. This biography. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 16:06, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know if seiska.fi is a reliable source? I don't read Finnish and don't know much about that site, but an editor recently used this as a reference. The "Hot or not" at the top of the page makes me question it. -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 17:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like others' opinion about whether the following sources should be considered reliable for contentious BLP material in Thomas Muthee:
Thanks! Jclemens ( talk) 02:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
In the article talk page, much was made of Women'sENews as a Pulitzer-prize winning organization. Turns out to be that they employ a prize winning cartoonist whose work on the site wasn't apparently part of that award. Jclemens ( talk) 05:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
OK everyone else -- this is where the issue stands for now -- and so far no one else has actually weighed in after Metropolitan90. Will someone who has no biases in this please add your two cents? Collect ( talk) 15:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Is this article on messybeast.com a reliable source for the second paragraph in this section of the Singapura cat article? It's self published but author is pretty knowledgeable on a broad range of cat topics(e.g. genetics). Minor mention in a couple of news article. [26] The author edits wikipedia ss User:Messybeast but has not edited the article in question. -- Dodo bird ( talk) 02:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
WP:RS is quite clear: Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as fringe, pseudoscience or extremist should be used only as sources about themselves and in articles about themselves or their activities [27]. But sadly this is not the case. Currently Wikipedia is plagued by nationalist Polish newspapers, that are used as a references. So far all discussions to find common ground failed, so broader input is necessary no find out where the community consensus is. So my question is - should or should not whose newspapers used as reliable source:
Głos, currently used as a reference in FA article Józef Piłsudski. It is described as radical right weekly anti-Semitic weekly This newspaper has been criticized for publishing anti-Semitic hate-speach articles advocating expulsion of the Jews from Israel to Florida, and promoting the Jewish world domination conspiracy theories [28]. I'd say it is obvious WP:FRINGE source, that has no place in Featured Article, but some think otherwise [29]
Gazeta Polska. Another extreme nationalist newspaper. According to The Crosses of Auschwitz: Nationalism and Religion in Post-Communist Poland By Geneviève Zubrzycki published by University of Chicago Press, 2006 page 223 "Gazeta Polska and Nasza Polska are Far-Right weeklies" and "should not be considered mainstream". So WP:RS violation should be obvious. Not to some. It took months of discussion to stop reinsertion of an article [30] from Gazeta Polska written by Marek A. Wojciechowski (under a penname Kordian Krawietz), a representative of the neo-fascist National Revival of Poland and a contributor to the openly anti-Semitic magazine ‘Szczerbiec’. Problem solved? Nope. Gazeta Polska is still used as an reference in Wiki [31] [32].
Nasz Dziennik, part of anti-Semitic Radio Maryja broadcasting group is [33] described as far right [34], radical nationalist [35], and ethno-nationalist [36]. I'd say - an obvious case of unreliable source. But again some think that Radio Maryja's antisemitic channel is "just a newspaper" [37]. And when mass blind reverts are used to reinsert this newspaper as a reference to a dozen of Wiki articles, one might feel kind of helpless [38] [39] and dozen of other reverts.
So I would really like to know where the community consensus on this question is. M0RD00R ( talk) 18:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Peters I really don't know what news articles and reporters you are referring to, because in my post I cite books published by respectable publishing companies. And only news article references connection between Nasz Dziennik and Radio Maryja, but if you will insist I will easily replace it with multiple WP:RS, if you are finding New York Times unreliable for some reason unknown to me. Specific examples are also provided.
I definitely agree with Judith that history related articles should be sourced from works by academic historians, but sadly that is not the case in some Wiki areas, as has been noted by many editors before. But if encyclopedia is build on newspapers, all I hope at least extremist media will not be disseminated here. M0RD00R ( talk) 20:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Policy is very clear - fringe, extremist sources are meant to be used as references only about themselves. Period. For example, Stormfront.org covers many seemingly uncontroversial topics - gardening, cooking, etc, but we still don't use it as a reference in wiki, even if statements themselves are not controversial. M0RD00R ( talk) 20:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Its activities and articles were mentioned by several news sources across the world, among others, by The Stephen Roth Institute The center-right weekly Gazeta Polska reported that a Samoobrona senator, Henryk Dzido, was a close associate and legal adviser to the convicted antisemite Kazimierz Switon, who occupied a historic site at Oswiecim (Auschwitz) for over a month in 1998. In January 2002 Gazeta Polska reported that Lepper was behind the rumor spread in Poland that 4,000 Jews remained home on 11 September because they had prior knowledge of the attacks. In 2002 Lepper resumed cooperation with the antisemitic activist and publisher Leszek Bubel [51], The Guardian [52], Taipei Times [53], USA Today [54], NY Times [55] and there was even a mention of Gazeta Polska in Haaretz [56]. Its reporters were even attacked by a ultra-Catholic mob and among persons interviewed with Gazeta Polska, there is former Israeli ambassador, Shevah Weiss (March 2001, I did not find it online). With a little bad faith, one can make whatever one imagines a radical source. Just google BBC antisemitic and you will see. Tymek ( talk) 04:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Radeksz, please stay on topic, no one is calling Wierzbicki "exrtreme nationalist", we are discussing Gazeta Polska, not a person. Addressing Piotrus and Tymek comments I must stress, that BBC statement that its a weekly, speaks nothing of it's reliability - "weekly", does not equal "not a radical right weekly", and "conservative" does not translate as "reliable" either. Regarding one source of GP being extreme, well...
By Michael Bernhard, Henryk Szlajfer Published by Penn State Press, 2004
By Sabrina P. Ramet Published by Penn State Press, 1999
Case 1. Article Betar. Reference deleted by me [67], restored by Piotrus [68]. Reference is comming from Nasz Dziennik by highly controversial Jerzy Robert Nowak. During process against anti-Semitic publishing company, "100 Falsehoods of J.T. Gross" by Nowak, was classified as anti-Semitic by prof. dr hab. Jerzy Tomaszewski [69], who was called in as en expert by the court. Nowak also is an expert for "the Jewish question" on anti-Semitic Radio Maryja, and has a bit of "reputation": "In September 2001, in Wroclaw, during a session of the Festival of Science entitled 'Poland: Poles and Jews in their common home', which took place in the town hall, one of the panellists, Jerzy Robert Nowak, provoked his co-panellists—Jerzy Kichler, president of the Union of Jewish Religious Communities, Konstanty Gebert, former editor in-chief of the Jewish monthly Midrasz, and Fr Michal Czajkowski, a well-known author of works on Jewish topics—by making antisemitic remarks. Nowak, a right-wing historian linked to Radio Maryja and known for a number of aggressively antisemitic and chauvinistic books, as well as articles published in Nasz Dziennik and Nasza Polska, said he did not want to participate in a debate with Gebert and Fr Czajkowski. After only a few moments, Kirchler and Gebert, together with some members of the audience, left the room. Despite his willingness to debate with Nowak, Fr Czajkowski also left the room, accompanied by shouts of 'Go to Israel!' Nowak said that one should not only talk about antisemitism, but also about the 'anti-Polonism' of the Jews. A large section of the audience, especially elderly and middle-aged people, applauded his remarks and, after the session, Nowak signed autographs in front of the town hall. The festival organizer responsible for inviting Nowak, Aleksandra Kubicz, said she had had no idea that Nowak was a well-known antisemite" [70]. M0RD00R ( talk) 19:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Comments? Novickas ( talk) 20:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
The subject of Dido's real name has been the source of a protracted edit war. Although there are reliable sources which state that she was born Florian Cloud de Bounevialle Armstrong, they are undermined by Dido herself stating that Dido is her real name. I have obtained a certified copy of her birth certificate from the General Register Office in London, which must be the final word on her birth name. However, it is not clear to me if I can cite it (am I conducting original research?) or how to cite it (i.e. which citation template should I use? What information should I include?). Is there a precedent that I can follow? Thank you, Labalius ( talk) 11:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all for your valuable advice. I intend to write a section for the Dido article, including a fully-referenced discussion of her name. She certainly was known as Dido by her family during childhood, so "Dido" should not be presented as a stage name. I had no idea that I was allowed to upload a scan of the GRO index, which will be very helpful. I will consider whether the birth certificate itself needs to be referenced, but I am happy that I am not guilty of original research. Labalius ( talk) 17:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Some eyes would be appreciated on this entry in regards to the sources being used in it. This particular blog seems entirely non-notable to me, and an editor is adding several references to it from various unreliable and politically charged blogs in order to establish notability. These blogs inlcude Jihad Watch, Little Green Footballs, Muslims Against Sharia, and Militant Islam Monitor. One reference to the NYT is entirely deceptive as the NYT only mentions CAIR Watch in passing, while bringing up a fact about its founder. Are these sources reliable here? Any feedback would be appreciated. PelleSmith ( talk) 03:00, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
An editor is continually placing this link http://www.scribd.com/doc/1780013/Salvific-Law-Salvific-Character-of-Law-An-Historical-Overview Catholic View of Salvation] into articles, eg our Salvation article. As it is, it's a word document self-published. It is the same document as the one in this article Salvific Law which is apparently his PhD thesis and published by his seminary if I understand the article correctly (the editor is pushing the PhD thesis, the author, the family, etc in fact). I don't think it is a RS, and I'm not even sure if the article Salvific Law is notable enough for Wikipedia but that is another issue. Thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 09:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I've started a thread at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography#Reliable sources in an attempt to sort out sourcing issues with porn star articles. Any opinions on the reliability of the sources commonly used in these articles would be welcome. Thanks. Epbr123 ( talk) 18:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if http://www.tokyograph.com/ could be considered a reliable source, primarily for its news reports about ratings, awards, etc. - Malkinann ( talk) 22:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Could any of these sources [76], [77], [78], [79] be considered reliable enough to be used as sources on the page of List of best-selling music artists for the artist Michiya Mihashi. And does the content of this article mention a sales figure stating over 100 million units? Because I wasn't quite able to translate it thoroughly. -- Harout72 ( talk) 01:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
www.jrt.co.jp is certainly reliable enough, but it refers to sales of 1000万. That would be 10 million, not 100 million. oricon.co.jp looks pretty good. http://www.minyo-shakuhachi.com is by a fellow artist, discussing a joint CD, so it can't be treated as independent.— Kww( talk) 02:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
In one of the articles, it has been questioned by another editor whether a book published by Dar-ut-Tazkeer is verifiable or not. Since the book is in Urdu, how can be claim be considered 'verifiable'? The book is by Khalid Masud, titled Hayat-e-Rasool-e-Ummi published in 2003 by Dar-ut-Tazkeer, and he has disputed on page 560 that the age of Aisha (wife of Prophet Muhammad was 6 or 9 at the time of marriage on the basis of unreliability of a primary source. This is not the only such work, but one published in print that I know of that comes closest to being verifiable. Thanks. Omer ( talk) 01:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to know if Hyperwar, [80] is a Reliable Source, as it has been offered as a source for a military history article I intend to take to FAC. Many thanks, Skinny87 ( talk) 07:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
There have been a number of discussions on this noticeboard on the reliability of old sources (most recently concerning the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia). I've proposed an addition to Wikipedia:Verifiability that would address the problem of how and when to use old sources. Please see Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Dealing with potentially outdated sources - any comments would be welcome. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to find out if the following sources provided for the page List of best-selling music artists are reliable and if they are, do the content of the sources mention a selas-figure of 50 million or above. Here they are: artist-1 Dreams Come True and the sources for this Japanese artist are: [81], [82]. Artist-2 Kazuhiro Moriuchi and the source for this Japanese artist is: [83]. Artist-3 Mr.Children and the source is: [84].-- Harout72 ( talk) 00:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
A small group of editors has come to an impasse regarding whether a group of published commentaries meet WP:RS and should therefore be summarized in the article we are working on, or fail to meet WP:RS and therefore should not be included on the page. We are hoping to have the input from otherwise uninvolved editors to help us resolve the issue. (In the interests of disclosure, the editors most involved in the disagreement are user:Dicklyon, user:DarlieB, user:Hfarmer, user:James Cantor, user:Jokestress, user:ProudAGP, and user:WhatamIdoing.)
Agreed upon facts
Arguments for including peer commentaries
Arguments for excluding peer commentaries
There are basically three options:
I will add that the above was a negotiated question. See the related talk page to see how complicated this has been. We thank you for your help. -- Hfarmer ( talk) 00:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the journal or the topic, so I can probably give a sufficiently uninvolved opinion:
Whether one commentary or all commentaries are cited or quoted doesn't matter. The amount of attention that needs to be paid to any opinion is according to how widely that opinion is expressed among RS's, not according to what "one wants." That's why we need an idea of whether all, some, or none of the commentaries are RS's, from WP's point of view.
— James Cantor (
talk) 12:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
There is more that one sense of the term "being an expert." There is "being an expert for WP purposes" and there is "being an expert in the more general sense of being in possession of uncommon information." For purposes of deciding what is and is not an RS, we are interested in the WP version of expert, and WP has no policy saying that members of a group (whatever group) gives any person any greater standing than otherwise. When writing an encyclopedia, being male does not give any special information on which gene on the Y-chromosome produces males development or what the probability is of developing testicular cancer. Being gay will never tell you what areas of the brain are involved.
Being an expert in the general sense is an interesting philosophical conversation, and I suspect that you and I would actually agree on most points if we discussed them in any length. But that would be appropriate only in another venue, such as my talk page.
— James Cantor (
talk) 21:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
And back to the Wyndzen topic, the editor of the American Psychological Association's Division 44 newsletter invited Wyndzen to submit an expanded letter on the topic for publication ( [85]). It's not a journal, but is clearly a relevant reliable source that supports her being a recognized expert. Furthermore, since Dreger's response specifically addresses the Wyndzen comments as "unique", that adds support to the reliability of that commentary as an expression of a person's genuine opinions. And to call it self-published remains absurd, in my opinion. These are all part of the same discussion, in a context controlled by Dreger's friends. It's lopsided enough that way without censoring parts of it for not being part of the academic sexology cabal. Dicklyon ( talk) 06:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I am a member of that division and have previously published several items in their newsletter. Submissions to the newsletter are handled by email and without any verification of the identity of the author. All a person would have to do to remain anonymous is to have an email address, send in the comment, and for the editor to respond to the same email address asking for longer version of the same document. Nothing in that procedure requires the identification of the author nor establishes the newsletter as an RS. Dicklyon can push for the Wyndzen comment all he likes, of course, but (except for Jokestress) the opinion against it has been unanimous.
— James Cantor (
talk) 13:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, the WP editors originally involved in this dispute do not shore the same understanding of what the uninvolved editors have recommended. So, I am pasting below the discussion/disagreement about the uninvolved editors recommendation from the talk page of the disputed article (
The Man Who Would Be Queen). Any indication about whether the uninvolved editors' recommendations are being misinterpreted would be greatly appreciated.
— James Cantor (
talk) 23:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Basically I understand this to mean Dr. Wyndzen as of now cannot be used as a source here. The Dreger article can be used as a reliable source on par with any other peer reviewed journal article. All the commentaries have to be treated as self published and vetted on a case by case basis.
I look forward to arguing over just what constitutes expertise in this matter. Why wait?-- Hfarmer ( talk) 17:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Academic credentials? Direct knowledge? For example if we say that one must have an academic credential to be an expert on this...then someone who wrote a book on this but had no direct knowledge would be more of an expert than say...Anjelica Kieltyka, or perhaps Juanita/Maria. :-? Which would be totally absurd. On the other hand much credit has to be given to someone with an academic degree for the expertise related to that degree. However in the words of Richard Feynman "I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Therefore would say being a illustrious professor of English, Economics, and Microwave Cookery should not automatically make one an expert on this matter? :-/ How about if that professor is them self a transsexual? Should that have any bearing on the question of weather or not they are an expert. I think it does if the illustrious professor was here in Chicago and has some good first and second hand knowledge to draw on. Personally I don't think being a professor/PhD/MD/ grad student has any bearing on the matter at all unless you are a psychologist AND have shown familiarity with the situation. But that's just my opinion.
lol as you can see the "answer" we got from RS/N raises at least as many questions as their are peer commentaries lol :-) What say you all? -- Hfarmer ( talk) 17:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
WP:SPS sets the standard for "expert" at having published on the topic in an RS. Neither being a psychologist nor being transsexual are, in themselves, sufficient. The commentators whom I know off-hand to have previously published on sexology in an RS are: John Bancroft, Ray Blanchard, Alice Dreger, John Gagnon, Brian A. Gladue, Richard Green, Anne A. Lawrence, Marta Meana, Charles Moser, Bruce Rind, and Marilyn P. Safir. All that would be necessary to add someone else would be to provide the RS that that person published. If "topic" were interpreted to mean "transsexuality" instead of "sexology," then the list of experts becomes shorter, of course.
Although a second uninvolved editor has now endorsed my summary at RS/N, I repeat my apology for speaking out of turn. In my readings of the rules, I have not seen such a policy. I would be grateful if someone would direct me to where that policy is, so I can avoid making similar faux pas in the future.
— James Cantor (
talk) 18:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing: I agree with you entirely that McClosky is not an RS for matters of fact. I believe furthermore that the commentaries from the topic-experts are also out with regard to matters of fact. Regarding opinions, I believe (and I interpreted the uninvolved editors to believe) that: (1) the topic-experts' opinions could be included on the basis of their commentaries, so long as it was clear that the statements were indeed merely the opinions of those topic-experts, and (2) the non-experts' opinions could not be included in any case. That is, (in my opinion) it is not the place of an encyclopedia to record the opinion of every non-expert who expresses one in an SPS. (I appreciated that the commentaries are not literally self-published; rather, they are being treated as SPS's.) For example, an opinion about the current economic crisis in a letter-to-the-editor from a former Federal Bank executive would merit mention in WP, but the same opinion expressed in a letter to the same newspaper by average citizen X would not.
Jokestress: That you personally do not believe that (all) the commentators are experts is irrelevant to whether those people meet the WP definition of expert. Neither phrenology nor intellegence research became modernized because of pressure from non-experts. Both fields evolved because of the input of other experts who produced superior findings in well-regarded RS's. Should the experts who do see things your way produce analogously superior findings in the future, then they most certainly should win out in the long run. Thus far, however, they have produced no such thing.
Uninvolved editors: It is not my intent to put words in your mouths. If I have misinterpreted your intended meaning, I apologize, but please do let me know whether I am in error. — James Cantor ( talk) 23:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
-library science is not a reliable source in this respect
[1] claims
Relata refero regarding
Denial of the Ukrainian famine (1933) according to:
and keeps removing the fact and the sources from the article. Any thoughts?
Also, once this is here are sources like for example:
reliable sources that would define the subject unlike Relata refero claims the article is a violation of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR and WP:NPOV?
Thanks!-- Termer ( talk) 02:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) Hello, as a contributor to this article, I personally find the above entry repuslive. Here's why:
In 1932, soviet authorities started taking away grain from people and by 1933 those people were starving to death. The people in Ukraine who were dieing started using the word "Голодомор" - "Holodomor" which is derived from the word "holod" "голод" (hunger) and "moryty" "морити" (to cause to suffer). "Holodomor" described the situation that they faced - starvation, unless they joined the collective farms. There was a holod, a famine, throughout Ukraine, and people were starving in the streets. The soviet union was exporting grain in record quantities. Hence the idea of "moryty" - using food as a weapon.
More than ten years later, a word started creeping into the English vernacular - holocaust. It was from the greek word for sacrifice by fire - holokauston, and referred to Hitler's extermination policies. This word did not become common in English until it was connected to the word "genocide" in the 1950s, and the whole horror of Nazism sunk in. The word "Holodomor" is now becoming widespread, as the horrible results of communism are starting to sink in.
Although the words "Holodomor" and "Holocaust" may seem similar in modern English, they are in no way related. Although these two events may seem equally horrible in nature, they are in no way related. Although the articles about Holodomor Denial and Holocaust Denial may seem related, they are not. There has been no attempt to link the two. Please do not try to read into any reasons or find any hidden agendas by any editors. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 09:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Allah, Yahweh, and Vishna to you also, my friend. What you may call an atrocity, others may call a work in progress. While it is difficult to organize such a vast topic as Holodomor Denial into one easy article, editors have taken on the task with a steady determination. Please help to improve the article, but please do not use phrases like "silly little". Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 09:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I am developing this article and I use an authoritative and comprehensive published lexicon to cite the existence of borrowed words in Tamil language
Some people who dont accept the lexicon's authority are threatening to delete my work and have extensively tagged my article with "citation necessary" tags. Kindly help. Kris ( talk) 18:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This Sept 29 Business week article] evidently used an earlier version of Community Reinvestment Act for it's four of six of its most prominent links. One of those sources has been kicked off the wiki article because it is a law firm serving clients who profit off the Act and its statistics were obviously biased. The Business week article is just being used in external links right now, which I'd like to delete. But more importantly I have a problem with it being used as an opinion source or even worse to back up credibility of the law firm's piece. Anyway, I haven't noticed this issue before so I thought I'd bring it up and let people chew on it. Carol Moore 15:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
Just to explain. The white paper by the law firm Traiger & Hinckley has been repeatedly removed from Community Reinvestment Act by Carolmooredc, because she claims (without evidence) that it serves clients who profit from the CRA. There is no evidence that the writer for the BusinessWeek article used Wikipedia for a source apart from the fact that it is addresses the same topic and quotes other (well known) sources on the subject, some of whom are also quoted in the Wikipedia article. Note that the BusinessWeek article is not being used as a source for any statements of fact. It would only be used as a source to observe that the viewpoint expressed in it does exist in the community. She also repeatedly removes links to other articles that dispute her position, this BusinessWeek article being an example. Sources that conform to her views are given more leeway. Please also see the entry on the Manhattan Institute above on this page. lk ( talk) 15:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
This site is being used as a reference source on a WP:BLP. The majority of the sites content is self published work and the site provides no publisher oversite or verification of material. Because of the nature of the content, I would go so far as to say it should be blacklisted as a source for any article on WP because of its lack of reliability. Please see it's sourcing use at Michael Riconosciuto and the open AN/I.-- Javier MC 07:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
This was reported by a News Corporation news portal about Putin emerging as a gay icon, so I added it to the relevant section in the Vladimir Putin article, but User:Setraspdopaduegedfa keeps removing this [3], [4] claiming that it is "not a reliable source". Martintg ( talk) 07:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
The site is http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com ; the author is Joe Pelletier, a published author. I'm thinking of using this post as a reference, because of the fact that it's a published author writing about the subject in question. Does this blog/author pass as reliable? Thanks, Maxim (talk) 20:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
This site [5] is one of the biggest punk rock webzines with constant news updates and hundreds of album reviews and interviews. Can this be regarded as a reliable source when determining the notability of a punk rock band?
Strummer25 (
talk) 10:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
A quick scan of the webpage at thepunksite shows about 99% of the articles as being authored by the same person: Bobby Gorman; that alone should send up a red flag. Furthermore, the format of the thepunksite site practically screams "blog". I don't see how this could qualify is a "Reliable" source except in an article on thepunksite.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 10:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
--
BruceGrubb (
talk) 00:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
We have very stringent policies and guidelines related to reliable sources, but how these apply to Bibliographic articles? Is the threshold for including a source in a bibliographic article any different than for any other article in Wikipedia? Some examples: Bibliography_of_work_on_Objectivism, Richard_Nixon_bibliography. And how we do apply standards for inclusion in bibliographies about living people? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that there is much latitude in the policies of Wikipedia. Jossi's question, "What are the standards for bibliographical articles on living persons?" seems to be pretty well answered in WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:RS. There may be some newspaper articles about a person, but these generally are variable both in the research and in the argument. A critical book (an "academic" text for want of a better term) generally has followed a process of collecting evidence, which may include newspaper articles, testing the claims made in newspaper articles and elsewhere against the evidence, and drawing conclusions about the subject. Other books may critique that position, using a different set of evidentiary frameworks and coming to a different conclusion. In both cases though, the process is thorough and uses the process of dialectic to arrive at positions. Newspaper articles may not do that. Whilst some journalists are impeccable in their research, others are not so and the history of journalism is littered with the detritus of these weapons of mass delusion.
So I don't see the objective of a bibliography as "to present a balanced collection of as many relevant sources as is reasonable for a single section/article", as NVO claims above. That statement contains two words which would only add to debate: "balanced" and "relevant". These are selections an editor will make. As I see it, Wikpedia presents information and arguments made by others who have spent some time and effort in their work. It's not an archive; it doesn't fulfill the role a presidential library would. At the same time, the WP:BLP overrides the argument that everything can be included in a bibliography. A really close reading of those policies does clarify most of the issues. Errol V ( talk) 11:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Silly question. I wrote answers to the original questions at the top of the thread. I made the points about newspapers and magazines, but it seem you did not read those points. Newspapers and magazines come down the list in terms of Wikiepedia policy. Statements like "they are generally considered..." are weasel statements; because they are not generally considered. Making statements like that shows that you are not interested in a discussion; rather, you just like to pretend that your speak for the authorities, whoever that might be. But you don't. There are great reasons to exclude them from bibliographies; I've elaborated on those reasons above. Errol V ( talk) 11:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Is Practically Edible a RS? I want to use this page. According to its page, it's the World's Biggest Food Encyclopedia with over 10,000 "detailed" entries. The sources page is here. I'm pretty sure it is, but I thought I'd get a second opinion. Thanks ahead of time. Intothewoods29 ( talk) 22:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I tried to verify the following material from the rice article.
The Encyclopedia Britannica—on the subject of the first certain cultivated rice—holds that:<ref>''rice''. Encyclopaedia Britannica 2008.</ref>
The origin of rice culture has been traced to India in about 3000 BC. Rice culture gradually spread westward and was introduced to southern Europe in medieval times. With the exception of the type called upland rice, the plant is grown on submerged land in the coastal plains, tidal deltas, and river basins of tropical, semitropical, and temperate regions. The seeds are sown in prepared beds, and when the seedlings are 25 to 50 days old, they are transplanted to a field, or paddy, that has been enclosed by levees and submerged under 5 to 10 cm (2 to 4 inches) of water, remaining submerged during the growing season.
However, when I consulted Encyclopedia Britannica, this quote was nowhere to be found.
I also tried to verify the following text:
Bruce Smith of the Smithsonian Institution advises caution on the Chinese rice hypothesis.<ref name=Harrington>"Earliest Rice" by Spencer P.M. Harrington in ''Archaeology'' June 11, 1997. Archaeological Institute of America (1997).</ref> No morphological studies have been done to determine whether the grain was domesticated.<ref name=Harrington/> According to Smith such a rice would have larger seeds compared to the wild varieties, and would have a strong rachis or spine for holding grain.<ref name=Harrington/>
However, when I checked the source in question I couldn't find any mention of Bruce Smith or his statements.
Is this allowed? Exactly what is the user who made these edits trying to pull?
Also, this PDF is cited as a source for Indian consumption of rice by 8000 BCE.
This source strikes me as fringe, not only because the 8000 BCE Indian rice date is an outlier well outside of the mainstream, but also because it gives a 3700–2000 BC date for the Vedas, an antedating associated with fringe nationalist claims. Satyam E. Jayate ( talk) 12:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been writing aviation-related articles for about a decade now. During that time I've come to rely on Joe Baugher's extensive list of American Military Aircraft. This list consists mostly of articles created by collecting information from other sources, essentially identical to the process used to create articles for the Wikipedia. They tend to be much longer than suitable for a Wikipedia article, but the creation process is similar, and the results excellent.
On several occasions I have been able to check his references after the fact. I have yet to find a single error that isn't in the original source. The simple fact that he includes his references in the articles is a good indicator of their quality, IMHO. Further, when I conducted a straw poll over on the Aviation project, every one of the "known suspects" agreed that JB was a good source.
So why am I here? Well during an FA on the F-20, the article was failed because it used JB as a source. I pointed out that he is well known, so much so that he even has his own wiki article. That resulted in a more focused counterclaim, that no one has referenced his aircraft articles, and therefore they fail the SPS requirement. I have never seen this before, generally when someone is a well known and trusted author you are free to use their works for references in spite of the fact that not every single thing they have written has not been mentioned by someone else. This entire point seemed, well, nuts.
To add to my confusion, it seems that the source is being failed for all the wrong reasons. As I see it, SPS is an attempt to weed out low-quality references, for the simple reason that many SPS's fall into the low-quality category. But JB's writings absolutely do not. And the criterion right above SPS is "Reliable sources", which states "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.", a label that his works fit to a T.
Soooo, which is it? In my opinion, Reliable trumps SPS. Further, IMHO, that SPS's primary concern is weeding out low-quality sources like moon-hoax conspiracy sites, which are generally SPS, and not to weed out high-quality sources just because they are SPS.
Am I interpreting this correctly?
Maury Markowitz ( talk) 18:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
The sources in this article need a proper fisking, and the unreliable ones removed. the skomorokh 18:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, wondering whether Amazon.com is usable as an inline citation, such as at I Want You, I Need You, I Love You. I've been going through song stubs to remove copyright violations and obviously unreliable sources (blogspot, tripod, etc.) and a reasonable number of Amazon.com cites keep turning up. I haven't actually removed them because I suppose Amazon.com is fairly accurate about their listing data. Still, it doesn't look very encyclopedic to be citing a sales listing. Seeking additional opinions. Durova Charge! 10:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Many of the Wikipedia guidelines are worded as such that they disallow print interviews, including bios and other promotional/publicity materials, where someone is, in a sense, talking about themselves, but allow an interview if the subject "Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast across a national radio or TV network". In other words, not only it that more notable, but more reliable. My question is at what point should common sense kick in and an editor be able to cite an interview with the subject of an article as a reliable source no matter what the media? Example - An article on an actor has a "claim" that the actor wanted to be like another actor. Now to back this up an editor needs to cite a reliable source. To me the best source would be an interview with that actor - irregardless of the format. And by "interview" I mean the person in question is talking about themselves, something that the current guidelines seem to frown upon. I can understand why the guidelines are there in this case - "hype" provided by a studio, label, publicist or even the subject of an article is not always reliable. However if it something "common sense" such as "Who influenced you?" or "What is your favorite song?" why would the actual person not be a reliable source? Soundvisions1 ( talk) 00:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I am engaged in a dispute with another editor on this talk page about the reliability of sources for the article. Although I am not innocent for remaining calm in the discussion, the editor has responded in an aggressive attitude and removed these sources from the article on grounds that they are contentious material about a living person. He has also stated that some of the sources constitute original research, and do not bear direct relevance to the living person in question.
There are a few other editors involved in the dispute, and who have been accused of Meat Puppetry by this editor, of trying to sabotage or defame the article. Because I got involved in trying to reconcile the use of sources for the article, I have also been included in the Meat Puppetry report. Because the other editor appears to be very passionate and accusatory in his responses (despite having a good knowledge of Wikipedia guidelines), I question the neutrality of the article. What we need is a neutral third party to weigh the arguments, to determine the reliability and relevance of sources, and to determine if there is NPOV in the article.
Thank you for your help. Rabicante ( talk) 00:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Can acclaimedmusic.net be considered a reliable source for listing an album's awards and accolades? Google Books shows the site is mentioned in The Music Internet Untangled: Using Online Services to Expand Your Musical Horizons, ISBN 1932340025, but I'm not so sure that's enough to make the site a source with a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks, Spellcast ( talk) 23:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
http://voice-compass.com/english/main/home.html seems like a "who's who"-type publication for the voice communication industry. So far, we have no idea where the original information for the article, "More Efficiencies in Automated Calls by Adaptive Audio" from Chapter 6: "Summary and Editor´s Recommendations", came from, nor to what degree it has been edited for publication in this book. See discussion: Talk:Adaptive_Audio#Establishing_WP:N_and_WP:V. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
The article Singapore Airlines fleet contains sprawling lists cataloguing the registration numbers, dates of delivery and first flights, and other info about every aircraft in Singapore Airlines' fleet. Setting aside the issue of whether wikipedia should be hosting this type of stuff, I'd like opinions on the sources of this information. It's not obvious from the citations in the article, but the editor who supports the inclusion of this material says that the data on individual airlines comes from http://airlinerlist.com/ and http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Singapore%20Airlines.htm. These look like self-published fan sites to me. What do people here think? Do these sources meet the requirements of WP:RS, and can they be used as citations for the detailed info these tables: Singapore_Airlines_fleet#Full_fleet_by_delivery_date, Singapore_Airlines_fleet#Current_fleet_by_aircraft_registration_number, Singapore_Airlines_fleet#Aircraft_to_be_delivered_by_registration_number? Yilloslime (t) 16:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
On the Violet Blue page a section about VB's attempt to file a restraining order against WP editor BenBurch was removed for WP:Note. After the removal, an article was published in sfweekly that covers the issue. So whether the material gets added back in seems to hinge upon whether sfweekly is a reliable source. Editor Tabercil notes on the discussion page for violet blue that sfweekly is used at least 475 times on wikipedia. SFWEEKLY is a well established publication, with significant ad revenues, professional staff, and both RL and Online circulation. Here's the sfweekly page, http://www.sfweekly.com/2008-08-20/news/sex-columnist-violet-blue-tries-to-restrain-online-foes/ Any thoughts? C4VC3 ( talk) 02:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Bicycle Kick article, the following link was added as a source: [18]
I am completely dubious about this statement and the source. Wikipedia does not know whether "El Mercurio" newspaper has its "Letters to the Editor" previously peer-reviewed. Also, the "mentioning" of a certain person named "Eduardo Bustos Alister" as the person to source clearly shows that the Wikipedist that included this "Letter to the Editor" citation did not even take notice of the actual person who wrote the letter: "Pedro Leguina Eguia." In other words, to help both you and me summarize the information:
I think these things qualify for this link to be taken out and for the statement that it sourced to be deleted. Nonetheless, I would like to hear the opinions of people here first.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 13:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Kauffner ( talk · contribs) has been inserting material into Dreams from My Father, sourced to The American Thinker. I think that despite its vaguely scholarly air, this source is questionable: I don't see evidence of fact-checking on that site, and I'd certainly say that the claim being promoted (that Barack Obama did not in fact write his acclaimed memoir) falls into the category of an exceptional claim, thus requiring an exceptional source — which this isn't. If this claim gets picked up by mainstream media, then it can be included as a "controversy" — but the views of one writer on a highly partisan website don't constitute a controversy. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
This is being used as a ref on a controversial article that has seen a lot of edit wars and am curious if it can be described as a RS, IMO it is an overly long blog. It is claimed it is a word for word account of a book ISBN 9780955806902 I have searched for the book in a few places and can't find it. BigDunc Talk 18:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
In Community Reinvestment Act it is being challenged that Howard Husock's article The Trillion-Dollar Bank Shakedown That Bodes Ill for Cities in the Manhattan Institute's City Journal (January 1, 2000) is a reliable source for facts because the author is the Vice President of the Institute, as well as a contributing editor to City Journal. However, the Journal does have an editor and according to his bio, Husock was formerly the director of case studies in public policy and management at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. He is a prolific writer on housing and urban policy issues. Husock is most recently the author of The Trillion-Dollar Housing Mistake, a collection of his City Journal essays, and of the Reason Foundation study Repairing the Ladder: Toward a New Housing Policy Paradigm. His work has appeared in periodicals such as the Wall Street Journal, Public Interest, The New York Times, Policy Review, and Reason. In 1999, Husock co-authored the study "Keeping Kalamazoo Competitive" for the City of Portgage, Michigan, an examination of proposed tax-based sharing and urban growth boundaries for the Kalamazoo metro area. Husock has been a speaker at housing and urban policy forums sponsored by the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation, the California Department of Housing and Community Development, the Massachusetts Department of Communities and Development, and the Urban Development Institute. If this isn't good enough ref for a paragraph full of factoids, I don't know what is :-) Carol Moore 15:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
If I can paraphrase the above, City Journal should be viewed as a biased source. At best it as reliable as an opinion piece in the New York Times, and if used as a source, the source of the information should be noted in line. Is that essentially correct? lk ( talk) 16:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have no general problem with the use of this article (elsewhere it's cited as a book) or author.
I have a specific problem: Husock asserts that the US Senate Banking Committee found in 2000 that various left-wing advocacy groups had made, as of 2000, $9.5 billion in fees out of a law called the Community Reinvestment Act (won't go into CRA specifics here). Suffice it to say, that is an absolutely stunning amount of money. That of course does not mean that it's not true. But I can find no other mention of this, can't find the senate banking committee finding, etc...
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof, so I don't think Husock's assertion about this finding is sufficient. As far as i can tell, he does not provide a citation in his book for this information (if he does, i invite the guy who cites the book and presumably has a copy to furnish it) and i can find no information to this effect anywhere on the interwebs that is not sourced to Mr. Husock. On this specific matter, i think a citation to the "Senate Banking Committee finding" is required to make the claim.
There is a disagreement with a user over the use of eurovision.tv as a source of information for Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest. It is the official website of the contest and includes a history section. The other user is claiming that this is a POV violation since we are only using this website to source a fact. He says that it is not the official stance of the contest and that some IT person wrote it so it cannot be trusted. He also claims that the sites disclaimer voids any information from being reliable. There was an error on the site, so I sent an email, they acknowledged the error and corrected it. This did not please the user (even though it was something he complained about) as he now thinks that it cannot be trusted because they change things because of emails. We then tracked down "the official history" book of the contest [20], but the user does not "trust" the author. So are we right to be arguing for these sources? Grk1011/Stephen ( talk) 22:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I explained in details on the YU ECS Talk page that eurovision.tv contains some heavy factual errors. Before going to the Talk page please note: I used many abbreviations and terms which not everyone may be familiar with: "Jugovizija" was the Yugoslav national pre-selection, SFRY is Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, while FRY is Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Both called themselfes "Yugoslavia", but the international community didnt recognize the latter as a legal succesor, but treated it as a brand new country. Hence, I see no reason why these two different political entities should be merged in a single article. Also, User:Grk1011 mentions that eurovision.tv corrected some of its mistakes. I visited the site today and first I noticed that Extra Nena is not listed under SFRY (maybe thats what Grk was refering to), but I refreshed the page in the browser, and that entry re-appeared. I dont understand what is this, maybe its due to web cache. I cleand the cache from my browser, and Extra Nena appears. Also, the eurovision.tv's "history by country" section contains only "Yugoslavia" without having separate SFRY and FRY entries. What they corrected, I dont understand? Extra Nena is still listed as participant under the SFRY's flag , although on May 9 1992 when that year's ESC took place, that country was definetly dead. -- Dzole ( talk) 16:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
This documentary is being used as a source in the Saladin article. It is being used to insert some POV claims and wild phrases into the article such as "the Islamic world had done nothing to start the offensive" (the "offensive" being the First Crusade), and "The Muslim culture lay in ruins for at least one hundred and four years". I tried to remove those phrases but another editor reverted my edit, saying that the source "is reliable". I have not seen the documentary, but the imdb.com reviews of it are not encouraging. Quotes from various reviews: "funded mostly by Iranian state oil and mining companies, this documentary is dazzling in its presentation, but careless about the historical facts"; "tendentious"; "propagandizing"; an "infomercial"; "mostly propaganda"; "pseudo documentary"; "Great cinematography but biased"; "there is a decidedly pro-Islam bias pervading this film"; "don't take the "historical facts" too seriously"; "the director prostituted himself to covert politics", and so on. Using a TV documentary as a source is risky at the best of times, but this production seems decidedly unsuitable to be used as one. Meowy 19:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Could use some more eyes on this whole page, but of course the most recent stuff is at the bottom. Questions regarding usage of primary vs. secondary sources for sourcing in the article, as well as other issues. Cirt ( talk) 13:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like feedback on whether the two self-published sources deleted here are legitimate primary sources for a few fairly minor details of the views of Bates method proponents, in the Bates method article. It is being argued that the notability of these specific sources has not been established; however, there is at least evidence of the general notability of current Natural Vision Educators (see the two sources immediately preceding the second reference which was deleted.) PSWG1920 ( talk) 21:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I have looked at the edit and the websites that were in them, and I agree with the deletion. That is, those sites do not appear to me to meet the criteria in
WP:V and
WP:RS. The authors of each of the two websites make explicit that they are expressing only their personal opinions and any formal expertise that those authors might have is not immediately apparent. As a side note, the now-deleted sources appear to me to be secondary not primary sources of Bates' method. A description of the Bates method should source Bates' original presentation of the method (the primary source) or an RS that summarizes or describes it (a secondary source).
— James Cantor (
talk) 14:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
A group of CfD deletions has started to revolve around the use of reliable sources about works of fiction. As part of one CfD, for example, this source, which describes the series as starring "Tony Shalhoub as an obsessive-compulsive cop named Adrian Monk" was used as part of an effort to justify including the character Adrian Monk in a now-deleted Category:Fictional obsessive-compulsives. The CfD in question boiled down to the question of the sources provided addressing the WP:OR issues raised by the nominator and other participants who advocated for deletion. After further discussion at this DRV, the issue seems to boil down to two reasons offered by Kbdank71, the closing administrator, for why the sources provided do not trump the claim of original research:
Can anyone here offer any guidance as to how these sources should have been treated in this case, and the general question of treating newspaper and magazine articles about works of fiction as reliable sources? (Note: I had originally posted this at WT:RS and received the suggestion to pass the request here). Alansohn ( talk) 13:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
A minor but seemingly intractable dispute has arisen at Talk:Sawston. Although there is some history here, it’s simplest not to bring it up (it’s on the talk page if you feel the need). The question for this board is this: Is Christ Church South Cambs (CCSC) part of the Church of England (COE) (i.e. Anglican Church), or not? The sources provided by each side appear to be contradictory. I thought it best to bring it up here for help in weighing the sources.
I’m filing this on behalf of the two main disputants (if that’s a word). There are other issues involved, but I think it hinges on the relative reliability of the sources, which is why I brought it here. I originally came into the dispute to try to stop an edit war, but have slowly come to agree more with one than with the other, so I no longer consider myself an impartial outside opinion.
The sources below were summarized (IMHO accurately, but I could be wrong) by Petemyers ( talk · contribs), who believes CCSC is a part of COE. For what it’s worth, I agree. Cuckoosnest ( talk · contribs) believes it is not. I believe both sides’ objections to the others’ references are presented here, but I’m notifying both editors I’ve brought this here, so they can correct me if I am wrong.
So, based on these dueling sources, is either side basing their argument on dubious sources? The article is about Sawston, so I really hesitate to bring up the fact that there is some disagreement about this in the article itself, per WP:UNDUE. And it seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to just remove denomination from all the other churches in the list as a compromise.
Finally, this is my first time posting to WP:RSN I didn’t know it existed until a surprisingly short time ago , so if I’ve misunderstood the nature of the board, let me know early and I’ll move it. -- barneca ( talk) 18:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
The Fresh expressions website doesn't mention CCSC. I know that at one point Tim Chapman was talking about leaving the CofE - I'm not sure whether the fact that he was ordained as CofE means that his church is part of the CofE. The crosslinks page is one which was written by TC. All churches differ, I'm not sure what characterises a 'new style' church. I don't believe that CCSC are financed by the Ely Diocese. I don't understand why the Ely diocese can't simply update their website to include CCSC. Cuckoosnest ( talk) 13:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC) Cuckoosnest
I've noticed that just about every game show article has a cite to at least one self-written fansite. See, for example, the links at the bottom of Three on a Match (game show). We have this and this as sources. Clearly, these are just personal websites, although the first one at least looks more reputable. Similarly, a while back I noticed that Legends of the Hidden Temple was using a Geocities page as a source, because a user claimed that such sites were pretty much the only sources available for the historical aspects of the show. Even longer-lasting shows like To Tell the Truth and High Rollers were using personal game show fansites as sources. In short, my question is: What do you do when the only sources that can give you such information are someone's personal website such as this? I don't think that there are that many "traditional" reliable sources, in print or otherwise, that pertain to the lesser-known game shows, so what should we do? Also, am I right in simply removing these (supposedly) unreliable sources from the articles entirely? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ( Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
The issue has been discussed at:
A major source for Sarah Palin email hack is an anonymous letter posted on the blog of Michele Malkin. " The story behind the Palin e-mail hacking". The letter, purportedly from a reader, explains some of the events that occurred on 4chan.org, apparently a locus of the hacking efforts. The letter cites an email posted under a pseudonym on that board, and makes various assertions about the intentions of people involved in the hacking. So far as I'm aware, everyone involved in the matter is still alive and at least one is named, so there is a WP:BLP component. Malkin is a political partisan with no known expertise in hacking, emails, or 4chan.org. I contend that this blog posting is not a suitable source for factual assertions about living people and related to an ongoing political campaign. Other editors say that the blog is reliable in this matter. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(Disclaimer: I used Malkin's blog to post a lengthy account of the facts at
Anonymous (group) and defended it on the discussions linked above) The indictment
[21] shows him confessing to all the events the jury has charged them with all the events, just like they are described on Malkin's post before anyone but the hacker himself could have knowledge of them (specially point 8 on page 2). The anonymous post that is described on Malkin's blog is most probably true, but there is no hard proof of that, so I understand if it has to be removed for BLP concerns. P.D.: duuuuuude, I think that his indictment is based on the post that is quoted at Malkin's blog. I think that the judge has actually based his indictment on Malkin's blog o_O --
Enric Naval (
talk) 02:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I think its rather unfair to discuss this without at least having the courtesy to mention it to myself.
Considering some articles use references to Geocities pages and many link to transient news stories, I would disagree with claims that these are not reliable sources STRONGLY or that the matter is resolved. -- Gibnews ( talk) 15:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
No, this is not a reliable source. Protonk ( talk) 13:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate a second opinion on this issue. User:Gibnews runs a Gibraltar-based news website [22], which he has used as reference or primary source in various occasions in the past. At the moment, there is an ongoing content dispute centered on this particular issue, whether he should be allowed to use this website as a reliable source, which he uses to back up his edits (many of the published pieces seem to be official press releases from Gibraltar local government). Link to dispute here. Regards, -- Asterion talk 09:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
This is a free service, providers enter data into their own area, we simply index and present it. Unlike traditional media, content is presented exactly as provided. There are no editorial changes, comment, or delay in publishing. If you find any of the content offensive or inaccurate, please take this matter up with the CONTENT PROVIDER directly. Should you consider content to be defamatory, or illegal, please instruct your lawyers to contact our legal representatives Phillips & Co
Is the Anniston Star ( homepage), in its present form, a “reliable source”? (It was once a commercial newspaper, but has been transformed into a non-profit teaching paper.) — SlamDiego ←T 22:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
For "pop" music I thought a mention in at least Rolling Stone or NME would be needed to show notability, or ofcourse the music sections of newspapers of record. Are there new RSes these days, and do they include: absolutepunk.net, melodic.net, altpress.com, and starpulse.com? -- Jeandré, 2008-10-19 t23:56z
Is "Directory of Georgian National Biography" a reliable source. The biographies don't look professionally written to me and often have typos however the website does have a well known scholar Dr. Ronald Grigor Suny on its "advisory board". I ask because one of the biographies on that site is being used in the WP:BLP of Aslan Abashidze. This biography. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 16:06, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know if seiska.fi is a reliable source? I don't read Finnish and don't know much about that site, but an editor recently used this as a reference. The "Hot or not" at the top of the page makes me question it. -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 17:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like others' opinion about whether the following sources should be considered reliable for contentious BLP material in Thomas Muthee:
Thanks! Jclemens ( talk) 02:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
In the article talk page, much was made of Women'sENews as a Pulitzer-prize winning organization. Turns out to be that they employ a prize winning cartoonist whose work on the site wasn't apparently part of that award. Jclemens ( talk) 05:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
OK everyone else -- this is where the issue stands for now -- and so far no one else has actually weighed in after Metropolitan90. Will someone who has no biases in this please add your two cents? Collect ( talk) 15:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Is this article on messybeast.com a reliable source for the second paragraph in this section of the Singapura cat article? It's self published but author is pretty knowledgeable on a broad range of cat topics(e.g. genetics). Minor mention in a couple of news article. [26] The author edits wikipedia ss User:Messybeast but has not edited the article in question. -- Dodo bird ( talk) 02:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
WP:RS is quite clear: Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as fringe, pseudoscience or extremist should be used only as sources about themselves and in articles about themselves or their activities [27]. But sadly this is not the case. Currently Wikipedia is plagued by nationalist Polish newspapers, that are used as a references. So far all discussions to find common ground failed, so broader input is necessary no find out where the community consensus is. So my question is - should or should not whose newspapers used as reliable source:
Głos, currently used as a reference in FA article Józef Piłsudski. It is described as radical right weekly anti-Semitic weekly This newspaper has been criticized for publishing anti-Semitic hate-speach articles advocating expulsion of the Jews from Israel to Florida, and promoting the Jewish world domination conspiracy theories [28]. I'd say it is obvious WP:FRINGE source, that has no place in Featured Article, but some think otherwise [29]
Gazeta Polska. Another extreme nationalist newspaper. According to The Crosses of Auschwitz: Nationalism and Religion in Post-Communist Poland By Geneviève Zubrzycki published by University of Chicago Press, 2006 page 223 "Gazeta Polska and Nasza Polska are Far-Right weeklies" and "should not be considered mainstream". So WP:RS violation should be obvious. Not to some. It took months of discussion to stop reinsertion of an article [30] from Gazeta Polska written by Marek A. Wojciechowski (under a penname Kordian Krawietz), a representative of the neo-fascist National Revival of Poland and a contributor to the openly anti-Semitic magazine ‘Szczerbiec’. Problem solved? Nope. Gazeta Polska is still used as an reference in Wiki [31] [32].
Nasz Dziennik, part of anti-Semitic Radio Maryja broadcasting group is [33] described as far right [34], radical nationalist [35], and ethno-nationalist [36]. I'd say - an obvious case of unreliable source. But again some think that Radio Maryja's antisemitic channel is "just a newspaper" [37]. And when mass blind reverts are used to reinsert this newspaper as a reference to a dozen of Wiki articles, one might feel kind of helpless [38] [39] and dozen of other reverts.
So I would really like to know where the community consensus on this question is. M0RD00R ( talk) 18:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Peters I really don't know what news articles and reporters you are referring to, because in my post I cite books published by respectable publishing companies. And only news article references connection between Nasz Dziennik and Radio Maryja, but if you will insist I will easily replace it with multiple WP:RS, if you are finding New York Times unreliable for some reason unknown to me. Specific examples are also provided.
I definitely agree with Judith that history related articles should be sourced from works by academic historians, but sadly that is not the case in some Wiki areas, as has been noted by many editors before. But if encyclopedia is build on newspapers, all I hope at least extremist media will not be disseminated here. M0RD00R ( talk) 20:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Policy is very clear - fringe, extremist sources are meant to be used as references only about themselves. Period. For example, Stormfront.org covers many seemingly uncontroversial topics - gardening, cooking, etc, but we still don't use it as a reference in wiki, even if statements themselves are not controversial. M0RD00R ( talk) 20:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Its activities and articles were mentioned by several news sources across the world, among others, by The Stephen Roth Institute The center-right weekly Gazeta Polska reported that a Samoobrona senator, Henryk Dzido, was a close associate and legal adviser to the convicted antisemite Kazimierz Switon, who occupied a historic site at Oswiecim (Auschwitz) for over a month in 1998. In January 2002 Gazeta Polska reported that Lepper was behind the rumor spread in Poland that 4,000 Jews remained home on 11 September because they had prior knowledge of the attacks. In 2002 Lepper resumed cooperation with the antisemitic activist and publisher Leszek Bubel [51], The Guardian [52], Taipei Times [53], USA Today [54], NY Times [55] and there was even a mention of Gazeta Polska in Haaretz [56]. Its reporters were even attacked by a ultra-Catholic mob and among persons interviewed with Gazeta Polska, there is former Israeli ambassador, Shevah Weiss (March 2001, I did not find it online). With a little bad faith, one can make whatever one imagines a radical source. Just google BBC antisemitic and you will see. Tymek ( talk) 04:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Radeksz, please stay on topic, no one is calling Wierzbicki "exrtreme nationalist", we are discussing Gazeta Polska, not a person. Addressing Piotrus and Tymek comments I must stress, that BBC statement that its a weekly, speaks nothing of it's reliability - "weekly", does not equal "not a radical right weekly", and "conservative" does not translate as "reliable" either. Regarding one source of GP being extreme, well...
By Michael Bernhard, Henryk Szlajfer Published by Penn State Press, 2004
By Sabrina P. Ramet Published by Penn State Press, 1999
Case 1. Article Betar. Reference deleted by me [67], restored by Piotrus [68]. Reference is comming from Nasz Dziennik by highly controversial Jerzy Robert Nowak. During process against anti-Semitic publishing company, "100 Falsehoods of J.T. Gross" by Nowak, was classified as anti-Semitic by prof. dr hab. Jerzy Tomaszewski [69], who was called in as en expert by the court. Nowak also is an expert for "the Jewish question" on anti-Semitic Radio Maryja, and has a bit of "reputation": "In September 2001, in Wroclaw, during a session of the Festival of Science entitled 'Poland: Poles and Jews in their common home', which took place in the town hall, one of the panellists, Jerzy Robert Nowak, provoked his co-panellists—Jerzy Kichler, president of the Union of Jewish Religious Communities, Konstanty Gebert, former editor in-chief of the Jewish monthly Midrasz, and Fr Michal Czajkowski, a well-known author of works on Jewish topics—by making antisemitic remarks. Nowak, a right-wing historian linked to Radio Maryja and known for a number of aggressively antisemitic and chauvinistic books, as well as articles published in Nasz Dziennik and Nasza Polska, said he did not want to participate in a debate with Gebert and Fr Czajkowski. After only a few moments, Kirchler and Gebert, together with some members of the audience, left the room. Despite his willingness to debate with Nowak, Fr Czajkowski also left the room, accompanied by shouts of 'Go to Israel!' Nowak said that one should not only talk about antisemitism, but also about the 'anti-Polonism' of the Jews. A large section of the audience, especially elderly and middle-aged people, applauded his remarks and, after the session, Nowak signed autographs in front of the town hall. The festival organizer responsible for inviting Nowak, Aleksandra Kubicz, said she had had no idea that Nowak was a well-known antisemite" [70]. M0RD00R ( talk) 19:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Comments? Novickas ( talk) 20:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
The subject of Dido's real name has been the source of a protracted edit war. Although there are reliable sources which state that she was born Florian Cloud de Bounevialle Armstrong, they are undermined by Dido herself stating that Dido is her real name. I have obtained a certified copy of her birth certificate from the General Register Office in London, which must be the final word on her birth name. However, it is not clear to me if I can cite it (am I conducting original research?) or how to cite it (i.e. which citation template should I use? What information should I include?). Is there a precedent that I can follow? Thank you, Labalius ( talk) 11:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all for your valuable advice. I intend to write a section for the Dido article, including a fully-referenced discussion of her name. She certainly was known as Dido by her family during childhood, so "Dido" should not be presented as a stage name. I had no idea that I was allowed to upload a scan of the GRO index, which will be very helpful. I will consider whether the birth certificate itself needs to be referenced, but I am happy that I am not guilty of original research. Labalius ( talk) 17:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Some eyes would be appreciated on this entry in regards to the sources being used in it. This particular blog seems entirely non-notable to me, and an editor is adding several references to it from various unreliable and politically charged blogs in order to establish notability. These blogs inlcude Jihad Watch, Little Green Footballs, Muslims Against Sharia, and Militant Islam Monitor. One reference to the NYT is entirely deceptive as the NYT only mentions CAIR Watch in passing, while bringing up a fact about its founder. Are these sources reliable here? Any feedback would be appreciated. PelleSmith ( talk) 03:00, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
An editor is continually placing this link http://www.scribd.com/doc/1780013/Salvific-Law-Salvific-Character-of-Law-An-Historical-Overview Catholic View of Salvation] into articles, eg our Salvation article. As it is, it's a word document self-published. It is the same document as the one in this article Salvific Law which is apparently his PhD thesis and published by his seminary if I understand the article correctly (the editor is pushing the PhD thesis, the author, the family, etc in fact). I don't think it is a RS, and I'm not even sure if the article Salvific Law is notable enough for Wikipedia but that is another issue. Thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 09:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I've started a thread at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography#Reliable sources in an attempt to sort out sourcing issues with porn star articles. Any opinions on the reliability of the sources commonly used in these articles would be welcome. Thanks. Epbr123 ( talk) 18:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if http://www.tokyograph.com/ could be considered a reliable source, primarily for its news reports about ratings, awards, etc. - Malkinann ( talk) 22:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Could any of these sources [76], [77], [78], [79] be considered reliable enough to be used as sources on the page of List of best-selling music artists for the artist Michiya Mihashi. And does the content of this article mention a sales figure stating over 100 million units? Because I wasn't quite able to translate it thoroughly. -- Harout72 ( talk) 01:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
www.jrt.co.jp is certainly reliable enough, but it refers to sales of 1000万. That would be 10 million, not 100 million. oricon.co.jp looks pretty good. http://www.minyo-shakuhachi.com is by a fellow artist, discussing a joint CD, so it can't be treated as independent.— Kww( talk) 02:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
In one of the articles, it has been questioned by another editor whether a book published by Dar-ut-Tazkeer is verifiable or not. Since the book is in Urdu, how can be claim be considered 'verifiable'? The book is by Khalid Masud, titled Hayat-e-Rasool-e-Ummi published in 2003 by Dar-ut-Tazkeer, and he has disputed on page 560 that the age of Aisha (wife of Prophet Muhammad was 6 or 9 at the time of marriage on the basis of unreliability of a primary source. This is not the only such work, but one published in print that I know of that comes closest to being verifiable. Thanks. Omer ( talk) 01:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to know if Hyperwar, [80] is a Reliable Source, as it has been offered as a source for a military history article I intend to take to FAC. Many thanks, Skinny87 ( talk) 07:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
There have been a number of discussions on this noticeboard on the reliability of old sources (most recently concerning the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia). I've proposed an addition to Wikipedia:Verifiability that would address the problem of how and when to use old sources. Please see Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Dealing with potentially outdated sources - any comments would be welcome. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to find out if the following sources provided for the page List of best-selling music artists are reliable and if they are, do the content of the sources mention a selas-figure of 50 million or above. Here they are: artist-1 Dreams Come True and the sources for this Japanese artist are: [81], [82]. Artist-2 Kazuhiro Moriuchi and the source for this Japanese artist is: [83]. Artist-3 Mr.Children and the source is: [84].-- Harout72 ( talk) 00:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
A small group of editors has come to an impasse regarding whether a group of published commentaries meet WP:RS and should therefore be summarized in the article we are working on, or fail to meet WP:RS and therefore should not be included on the page. We are hoping to have the input from otherwise uninvolved editors to help us resolve the issue. (In the interests of disclosure, the editors most involved in the disagreement are user:Dicklyon, user:DarlieB, user:Hfarmer, user:James Cantor, user:Jokestress, user:ProudAGP, and user:WhatamIdoing.)
Agreed upon facts
Arguments for including peer commentaries
Arguments for excluding peer commentaries
There are basically three options:
I will add that the above was a negotiated question. See the related talk page to see how complicated this has been. We thank you for your help. -- Hfarmer ( talk) 00:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the journal or the topic, so I can probably give a sufficiently uninvolved opinion:
Whether one commentary or all commentaries are cited or quoted doesn't matter. The amount of attention that needs to be paid to any opinion is according to how widely that opinion is expressed among RS's, not according to what "one wants." That's why we need an idea of whether all, some, or none of the commentaries are RS's, from WP's point of view.
— James Cantor (
talk) 12:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
There is more that one sense of the term "being an expert." There is "being an expert for WP purposes" and there is "being an expert in the more general sense of being in possession of uncommon information." For purposes of deciding what is and is not an RS, we are interested in the WP version of expert, and WP has no policy saying that members of a group (whatever group) gives any person any greater standing than otherwise. When writing an encyclopedia, being male does not give any special information on which gene on the Y-chromosome produces males development or what the probability is of developing testicular cancer. Being gay will never tell you what areas of the brain are involved.
Being an expert in the general sense is an interesting philosophical conversation, and I suspect that you and I would actually agree on most points if we discussed them in any length. But that would be appropriate only in another venue, such as my talk page.
— James Cantor (
talk) 21:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
And back to the Wyndzen topic, the editor of the American Psychological Association's Division 44 newsletter invited Wyndzen to submit an expanded letter on the topic for publication ( [85]). It's not a journal, but is clearly a relevant reliable source that supports her being a recognized expert. Furthermore, since Dreger's response specifically addresses the Wyndzen comments as "unique", that adds support to the reliability of that commentary as an expression of a person's genuine opinions. And to call it self-published remains absurd, in my opinion. These are all part of the same discussion, in a context controlled by Dreger's friends. It's lopsided enough that way without censoring parts of it for not being part of the academic sexology cabal. Dicklyon ( talk) 06:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I am a member of that division and have previously published several items in their newsletter. Submissions to the newsletter are handled by email and without any verification of the identity of the author. All a person would have to do to remain anonymous is to have an email address, send in the comment, and for the editor to respond to the same email address asking for longer version of the same document. Nothing in that procedure requires the identification of the author nor establishes the newsletter as an RS. Dicklyon can push for the Wyndzen comment all he likes, of course, but (except for Jokestress) the opinion against it has been unanimous.
— James Cantor (
talk) 13:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, the WP editors originally involved in this dispute do not shore the same understanding of what the uninvolved editors have recommended. So, I am pasting below the discussion/disagreement about the uninvolved editors recommendation from the talk page of the disputed article (
The Man Who Would Be Queen). Any indication about whether the uninvolved editors' recommendations are being misinterpreted would be greatly appreciated.
— James Cantor (
talk) 23:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Basically I understand this to mean Dr. Wyndzen as of now cannot be used as a source here. The Dreger article can be used as a reliable source on par with any other peer reviewed journal article. All the commentaries have to be treated as self published and vetted on a case by case basis.
I look forward to arguing over just what constitutes expertise in this matter. Why wait?-- Hfarmer ( talk) 17:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Academic credentials? Direct knowledge? For example if we say that one must have an academic credential to be an expert on this...then someone who wrote a book on this but had no direct knowledge would be more of an expert than say...Anjelica Kieltyka, or perhaps Juanita/Maria. :-? Which would be totally absurd. On the other hand much credit has to be given to someone with an academic degree for the expertise related to that degree. However in the words of Richard Feynman "I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Therefore would say being a illustrious professor of English, Economics, and Microwave Cookery should not automatically make one an expert on this matter? :-/ How about if that professor is them self a transsexual? Should that have any bearing on the question of weather or not they are an expert. I think it does if the illustrious professor was here in Chicago and has some good first and second hand knowledge to draw on. Personally I don't think being a professor/PhD/MD/ grad student has any bearing on the matter at all unless you are a psychologist AND have shown familiarity with the situation. But that's just my opinion.
lol as you can see the "answer" we got from RS/N raises at least as many questions as their are peer commentaries lol :-) What say you all? -- Hfarmer ( talk) 17:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
WP:SPS sets the standard for "expert" at having published on the topic in an RS. Neither being a psychologist nor being transsexual are, in themselves, sufficient. The commentators whom I know off-hand to have previously published on sexology in an RS are: John Bancroft, Ray Blanchard, Alice Dreger, John Gagnon, Brian A. Gladue, Richard Green, Anne A. Lawrence, Marta Meana, Charles Moser, Bruce Rind, and Marilyn P. Safir. All that would be necessary to add someone else would be to provide the RS that that person published. If "topic" were interpreted to mean "transsexuality" instead of "sexology," then the list of experts becomes shorter, of course.
Although a second uninvolved editor has now endorsed my summary at RS/N, I repeat my apology for speaking out of turn. In my readings of the rules, I have not seen such a policy. I would be grateful if someone would direct me to where that policy is, so I can avoid making similar faux pas in the future.
— James Cantor (
talk) 18:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing: I agree with you entirely that McClosky is not an RS for matters of fact. I believe furthermore that the commentaries from the topic-experts are also out with regard to matters of fact. Regarding opinions, I believe (and I interpreted the uninvolved editors to believe) that: (1) the topic-experts' opinions could be included on the basis of their commentaries, so long as it was clear that the statements were indeed merely the opinions of those topic-experts, and (2) the non-experts' opinions could not be included in any case. That is, (in my opinion) it is not the place of an encyclopedia to record the opinion of every non-expert who expresses one in an SPS. (I appreciated that the commentaries are not literally self-published; rather, they are being treated as SPS's.) For example, an opinion about the current economic crisis in a letter-to-the-editor from a former Federal Bank executive would merit mention in WP, but the same opinion expressed in a letter to the same newspaper by average citizen X would not.
Jokestress: That you personally do not believe that (all) the commentators are experts is irrelevant to whether those people meet the WP definition of expert. Neither phrenology nor intellegence research became modernized because of pressure from non-experts. Both fields evolved because of the input of other experts who produced superior findings in well-regarded RS's. Should the experts who do see things your way produce analogously superior findings in the future, then they most certainly should win out in the long run. Thus far, however, they have produced no such thing.
Uninvolved editors: It is not my intent to put words in your mouths. If I have misinterpreted your intended meaning, I apologize, but please do let me know whether I am in error. — James Cantor ( talk) 23:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)