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Oppose name change referring to 'Ancient Roman twins', just make them sound like elderly twins who live in Rome.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 14:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Sure, @
Omnis Scientia would you like to do the honors? @
Randy Kryn, all the ancient roman categories are named like this.
Mason (
talk) 22:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. (And thanks to the nom for moving this to full)
Mason (
talk) 02:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the ping. Support per being informed that all of the ancient Roman categories are styled like this. But "Ancient Roman twins" could be my Uncle Mortie and Aunt Rose (God bless their souls, under their real names, real birth order, and real nationalities, but you get the idea).
Randy Kryn (
talk) 03:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Music videos showing Sweden
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Nominator's rationale: These are minor subsets of
Category:Music videos shot in Sweden/
Stockholm, and there is no category scheme based on "recognisable features" shown in videos. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 22:25, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete All articles are already in the two "shot in" categories. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 03:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People of China
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Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category. Theoretically, there is room people with a defining link to a country but for whom we don't have any information or certainty about their citizenship of that country. However, it has proved not practically feasible to keep distinct category trees in the long run. Specifically, for a place with a history as long as China, there are times when going back in history where the notion of nationals vs. non-nationals just does not make sense. That's why individual people are at
Category:People by nationality and not at
Category:People by country.
Place Clichy (
talk) 22:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom, in practice "Chinese people" and "people in China" are indistinguishable, we cannot check people's passports.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Manual merge and redirect, following categorisation of siblings. E.g.
Expatriates in China should not go into the target; it is already correctly in
Demographics of China. The merge cannot be processed by bot as it is merger to a sub-cat. Redirection is desirable because there are many interwiki links. –
FayenaticLondon 09:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Could we at some point discuss the correct parenting of categories for expatriates, immigrants, diasporas etc.? Imho expatriates and diaspora categories should not be placed in Demographics of... categories but in Society of... as the people in these categories are not statistics and population science.
Place Clichy (
talk) 04:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Emigrants from Dutch Guiana to the United States
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Totally fine with this alt.
Mason (
talk) 02:12, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support use of Surinam, even for a period when it is anachronistic.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:20th-century executions by the District of Columbia
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Category:Lists of women government ministers by portfolio
Category:Fictional characters with schizoid personality disorder
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Nominator's rationale: In theory, this category should be upmerged for now, but it is not defining for the only character in here.
Mason (
talk) 20:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Emigrants from the Colony of Natal to the United Kingdom
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Support per nom, with regret, because South African is anachronistic.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Emigrants from Dutch Ceylon to France
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Nominator's rationale: Splitting animals by vertebrate/invertebrate seems to be
WP:NARROWCAT. Pointless new intersection that serves no useful purpose, just place them in
Category:Fictional animals by type instead. I should also note that real humans are technically "anthropomorphic vertebrates".
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 17:24, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
That many subcategories is not going to "overwhelm" anything. Wikipedia servers are not running on hamster wheels, they can handle categorizes with dozens of subcategories.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 22:56, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I am talking about simply browsing these pages. There's no pressing need to move 10 categories into another category right now.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 23:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support original nomination, this tree is not about biology, it is about fiction. Following scientific taxonomy unnecessary complicates the tree.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: One-entry category that will only isolate the article. Note that the article is also categorized in
Category:Asian folk dances.
Pichpich (
talk) 16:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom.
Gjs238 (
talk) 20:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American television producers
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish television producers. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American film directors
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish film directors. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American film producers
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish film producers. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional characters from the 6th millennium
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish chefs. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American lawyers
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Nominator's rationale: non-defining intersection per
WP:EGRSMason (
talk) 16:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep; there are other similar categories by ethnicity and it helps in diffusion. Actually, rather torn by this. Unlike chefs and inventors, I can see why lawyers are split by ethnicity.
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 19:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I was conflicted, @
Omnis Scientia, which is why I didn't bundle all the categories together. Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether their was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just Jewish lawyers.
Mason (
talk) 20:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Also sorry to spam the same comment at you. I wanted to make sure that the reasoning was clear if the nominations get separated when/if they're relisted.
Mason (
talk) 20:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle, the thing with these Cfd (and I've seen a few related to Jewish people in general where most decide they are NOT defining) is that we are deciding whether or not Jewish Americans are defining. I would say they very much are. And in case of Jewish Americans, unlike Jewish Britons for example, there are significant numbers to warrant categories like this one IF there is a precedence of categorization by ethnicities in an occupation which, in this case, there is (
Category:American lawyers by ethnic or national origin).
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 08:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
This comment entirely misses the intersection part in
WP:EGRS/I. Of course American Jewish/Jewish American identity is defining for many people, and the category to reflect that is
Category:American Jews.
Place Clichy (
talk) 08:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Place Clichy, again, you can apply this argument to any other ethnic group in the States, and there are other categories of
Category:American lawyers which could be against
WP:EGRS.
Dual merge (rather than splitting, and maybe that was the original intent). Jewish American lawyers practice the same law as other lawyers. While there are a number of American lawyers who are Jewish, and the Jewish American lawyer may be a racist cliché in itself, I don't believe that someone should be put in such a category if their professional practice does not deal with Jewish topics in a defining fashion. I believe that for law professionals active on Jewish legal topics such as civil rights,
Category:American Jewish anti-racism activists or
Category:Jewish American community activists may be better locations.
Place Clichy (
talk) 08:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Place Clichy, I don't agree in part because being a civil rights lawyer does not mean being an activist. And I don't agree with they "practice the same law as other lawyers" arguement because you can say that about any profession and category.
I'm very much in favor of keeping since there is precedence for dividing lawyers by ethnicity (non-American AND American).
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 09:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American inventors
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish inventors. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Collections and books are rather different things, so I'm not sure why the category was created covering both. There's already
Category:Books of photographs, so the category members that are books should probably be split and merged there. I'm not sure if
Category:Photographic collections would be a clear title. I think museum and gallery collections is the intended meaning? Does anyone have a better alternative title?
Paul_012 (
talk) 13:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
You mean, keep the current title and structure, with "books" under "collections and books", and leave the articles about museum collections under the parent? That would preclude inclusion under
Category:Museum collections though. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 11:49, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I've reworded the proposal as such. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 07:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 16:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, it is currently a confusing category title that could do with being renamed/recategorised.
Sionk (
talk) 18:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People in Sámi history
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Nominator's rationale:delete, all people have lived in history at some point of time, this is not a defining characteristic. A merge is not needed, the articles are already in more appropriate Sámi subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
As far as I can tell this category was supposed to be about famous Sámi people in history, but if someone has managed to be added to Wikipedia, I think that is enough to say that they were famous Sámi people, so I agree that this category should be ditched. -
Yupik (
talk) 22:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep Until the 20th-century, the Sami people were not treated equally with Norwegians, Swedes and Finns in Norway, Sweden and Denmark. They did not always regard themselwes to be the subjects of these countries, but maintained their own separate culture and history. If this category is deleted, it would make it very hard to find Sami people of history, since they have no other such category. One would have to go through each individual article one by one, to find Sami people active prior to the 20th-century. There are no century-category of Sami people before the 20th-century. You could argue that centiry categories should be created instead of having this big category, but the problem is that the articles would, I believe, be to few to justify creating century categories before the 20th-century. Nevertheless, it is relevant to be able to find Sami people from history, particularly since their history was indeed separate from the history of other people of these realms. In the same fashion as, for example, "Category:19th-century Native Americans" have their own category. The Sami should not be treated differently.--
Aciram (
talk) 23:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Then by all means create 19th-century and 18th-century categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 04:07, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Thank you Aciram for bringing up this valid point! Based on your argument, I have changed my mind to oppose this category being deleted. -
Yupik (
talk) 09:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
It is not enough with creating century categories. Why? I mention it above: some of those categories would simply be too small, and yet there are still Sami people who played in important part in Sami history which we would not be able to find if this category is deleted.--
Aciram (
talk) 22:05, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete with no objection to creating 18th and 19th century cats, that would create treat the Sami the same as the Native American categories. - 03:40, 10 December 2023 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
RevelationDirect (
talk •
contribs)
If there is another article about a 14th-century Sámi I will. In the current situation there is not much use of a category because there is no other article to navigate to when you are in
Margareta (missionary). Note that categories are meant to navigate between related articles. If you are interested in a complete list,
List of Sámi people and
List of Sámi women do a much better job.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 16:36, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. There is no point in time where history stops and the present starts. Timeless categories such as
Category:Sámi people and children categories by occupation, geography or group can have people from the past. Living people were also placed in this category (example). The argument that "If this category is deleted, it would make it very hard to find Sami people of history, since they have no other such category" is a cyclic argument, it does not demonstrate that there is such a concept as Sami people of history. A list article may be more efficient to underline the importance of some individual figures in Sámi history.
Place Clichy (
talk) 08:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment -- The Sami have been nomads, and to some extent still are, wandering between Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. They thus do not fit easily into national categories. The question is how the parent container for them should be named. 17th 18th and 19th century categories already exist, into which the articles ought to be dispersed.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:52, 25 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Magical girl characters in anime and manga
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Nominator's rationale: Case of clear
WP:OVERLAPCAT given that being a "magical girl" generally implies anime or manga origin. If anything, the ones in the parent category should probably be removed as miscategorized. Simply being a woman who uses magical powers does not imply being part of the magical girl genre.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 22:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment It already has. The
W.I.T.C.H. comic book series (2001-2012) and its animated adaptation, and the
Winx Club animated series (2004-2019) are Italian versions of the magical girl concept.
Dimadick (
talk) 20:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm not saying there are zero exceptions to the rule, but it feels like an overlap to have a separate category for characters specifically from anime and manga. There just aren't so many non anime/manga characters this is necessary.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 06:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlastertalk 12:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 16:31, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Television shows set in Wales by city
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Nominator's rationale: There's only likely ever to be one category in this category (Wales' other major cities,
Swansea and
Newport are not centres of TV production to my knowledge) therefore this is an unnecessary category step. I suggest
Category:Television shows set in Cardiff is upmerged to the parent categories.
Sionk (
talk) 23:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
It would then probably be helpful to merge the siblings too. All of the United Kingdom would contain only 17 subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Then the question is (and I do not know the answer) whether a Swansea category and a Wrexham category could be decently populated.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, my point exactly, I can see only 2 series filmed in Swansea, which wouldn't be enough to justify a category
Sionk (
talk) 23:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The articles are already in established category trees. There's nothing to stop those two Swansea TV series being put in
Category:Culture in Swansea anyway. SMALLCAT is designed to prevent categories containing only one or two items (which would make them difficult to find).
Sionk (
talk) 12:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)reply
In that case, I meant to say "Overcategorization guidance", per my opening remarks.
Sionk (
talk) 16:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 16:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to parents per nom. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 19:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to eliminate an unnecessary layer. This should probably also be done to the Scottish and Northern Irish siblings (2 items each).
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Keep but Feel Free to Create Subcategory Since JTBC is the parent category and there are already two subcats for other subsidiaries, Zium and Drama House, just create a third subcategory. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:01, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment Creating a subcat is likely wrong as both JTBC Studios and SLL are the same and it was rebranded to the latter per
main article.
♒️ 98TIGERIUS 🐯 17:05, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the clarification. The
JTBC parent company article also reflects the rename so my iVote above is stricken. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 19:04, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlastertalk 21:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Film and television production company categories are never renamed. A show produced by company X was never produced by company B. That is just anachronistic and incorrect. What we do when a company is renamed, is make that the parent company of the former.
Gonnym (
talk) 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Gonnym can you provide a wikilink that supports your first sentence?
♒️ 98TIGERIUS 🐯 19:38, 11 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Can I find a link for something that doesn't happen? Well, you can look for the 20th centuary fox category rename one.
Gonnym (
talk) 22:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 16:22, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename "SLL" and "JTBC Studios" are effectively two names for the same entity - the category groups television series by the entity that produces them, not the name that entity went by.
* Pppery *it has begun... 21:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indo-European history
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Comment Seeing how the category is populated now, it appears to mix two different things: a) articles that discuss the historical development of Indo-European languages (which is a good match for the proposed target) and b) articles that relate to the pre-historical geographical migrations of speakers of early Indo-European languages (which would be better assigned to a new cat
Category:Indo-European migrations). –
Austronesier (
talk) 20:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Hm, with this limited amount of articles a split is not the most desirable option. Besides the migration is discussed in order to explain the spread of the language family.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Still the entire category lumps together two kinds of articles that are entirely unrelated to each other except for falling under the parent category
Category:Indo-European languages. Have a look especially at
Category:Indo-European language histories. These articles are about linguistic substance, i.e. how the phonology, grammar etc. of Indo-European languages have evolved from earlier attested or reconstructed stages. These "hard-core" linguistic topics are very remote from those that discuss the (pre-historical) spatial movements of peoples assumed to have spoken early Indo-European languages based on interdisciplinary interpretations of linguistic, archeaological and archaeogenetic data. –
Austronesier (
talk) 21:50, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Keep The articles are not entirely about linguistics. The category is only sparsely populated and splitting will leave two SMALL CATS, which someone will misguidedly want to delete. I agree it is not a well bounded category.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 21:09, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep The articles contained in the category are largely about migrations of people, rather than the spread of languages. Preserving this as a broad-concept category is preferable to splitting it into smallcats. And
Marcocapelle, I would advise you not to not make substantial rearrangements to categories ahead of nominating them as you did to this one,
[1] as that may
hampers other editors' efforts to evaluate a category and participate in the discussion.
Krakkos (
talk) 12:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sexuality and age in fiction
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Oppose – There are many other categories that use the format "X in fiction", for example many of the subcats in the given example
Category:Fiction about medicine and health. The current naming format also suits articles that discuss the use of those themes in fiction and not just instances of works using those themes. I think it just sounds less clunky too.
MClay1 (
talk) 12:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support containerize and rename per Marcocapelle. I don't understand MClay1's opposition to the rename given that the goal is to ensure that the content is defining. I don't know of any examples of articles that discuss those themes, and think that they'd fit just as well in the category as renamed.
Mason (
talk) 23:54, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:17, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename and containerise, per Marcocapelle, per nom. The target may be clunky, but it does at least clarify that it needs to be defining for the category members.
Qwerfjkltalk 17:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:20th-century assassinated Asian politicians
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The result of the discussion was:merge. There is consensus to merge, and weak consensus for the nom's target.
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 17:14, 28 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: I think we should just upmerge this category as there are only three categories total that contain nationality specific 20th-century assassinated politicians.
Mason (
talk) 00:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I had forgotten about this project I started. My plan was to populate it directly with politicians not with nationalities, as opposed to
Category:Assassinated politicians in Asia that is populated with subcategories of nationalities due to its extent. According to
the PetScan analysis, the nominated category has potentially more than 300 entries. Sincerely,
Thinker78(talk) 20:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC) Edited 23:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I would definitely recommend populating nationality categories (for the better populated countries only) rather than populating continent categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I concur. Nationality is helpful, much more so that continents.
Mason (
talk) 00:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I was doing that (20th-century assassinated Indian politicians, and Chinese) but there are only few of them. I think categorizing by continent is standard practice (cities in Asia, history of Asia, Asian cuisine, etc.). Given the large amount of individual pages in Category:Assassinated politicians in Asia, I think it would be also helpful to diffuse by intersection of at least 20t century assassinated politicians and assassinated politicians in Asia, although other diffusion schemes may be helpful as well. Btw, there is the
Category:20th century in Asia. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 17:53, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Category:Assassinated politicians in Asia is pretty well diffused by nationalities. I don't see why we'd need to add an additional intersection by century with continent. I don't think that categorizing by continent before nationality is standard practice. I'm not sure your examples are super relevant because they don't include examples of people or death, which seem to be the key features here, rather than the continent.
Mason (
talk) 21:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Regardless, it's a lot of work. Although any "standard practice" starts one day with an initial practice that was not standard. Sincerely, Thinker78(talk) 00:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Some countries like China and Japan have ancient histories. Diffusion can help navigate among at least two centuries, even in countries that were created in the 20th century. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 17:53, 9 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge, even if it would be expanded with more nationalities it remains to be seen if we need continent categories on top.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I'd like to note that even though Thinker78 has added more Asian nationalities, I don't see the advantage of isolating them from the only other nationality category France.
Mason (
talk) 20:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Because it is a nationality category being treated differently from all the other nationality categories.
Mason (
talk) 20:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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So the problem is that
Category:Assassinated politicians in Asia is supposed to be countries, rather than nationalities. So it would make an even bigger mess. The goal of the merge was to keep the nationalities in the 20th-century together, not further apart.
Mason (
talk) 21:23, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I tried to tidy up the category by bundling all the decades together,
20th-century assassinated politicians by decade, which I think is helpful if we must keep all the categories diffused by decade, personally I'd prefer we diffuse by nationality rather than decade.
Mason (
talk) 21:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm looking at the category I made, and I don't love it. I'm going to empty it and delete it.
Mason (
talk) 20:30, 14 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional characters with spirit possession or body swapping abilities
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I am not against that either. I will tag the target too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose merging either category into
Category:Fictional psychics. Mind control is a distinct type of (psychic) power, it's not the exact same thing as telepathy, and it's certainly very different from telekinesis.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 09:01, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge I'm not convinced that this is a "psychic" ability, but this is definitely an unnecessary lower layer. Consider also placing members in
Category:Fiction about spirit possession where applicable. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 10:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
A hypnotist is quite something different, isn't it?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
When it comes down to it, hypnosis in fiction is just one of many types of mind control.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 17:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
(response added after relisting) the difference between natural and supernatural forms of mind control seems too big to merge them together.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:22, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 12:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 15:46, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus to rename to "African", weak consensus to replace "about" with "of".
Nominator's rationale:rename and purge, "black" is too subjective a skin color (I learned that people of Indian descent may be included in "Black British") and likely to lead to original research.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
On the other hand, there are plenty of paintings of black models in Western Europe, such as France or the Netherlands. I doubt that these people identify as African, just as French and Dutch.
Ymblanter (
talk) 10:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Presumably there must be paintings of black people that are not from African countries. It doesn't make sense to me to have, say, an article on a painting of Barack Obama in the Paintings of African people cat.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 14:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I do think "Murals of" makes more sense though, "Murals with" would also make more sense.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 14:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
"Paintings" got speedy renamed from 'about' to 'of' so yes but they just forgot about the subcats.
Orchastrattor (
talk) 05:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment Page was created as part of a larger diffusion on
Category:Black people in art, children should not be renamed without renaming the entire tree.
Orchastrattor (
talk) 16:25, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, but two caveots. 1) I think an alternative name like people of African descent would require less purging; 2. Orchastrattor points out: we need to address the entire category tree.
Mason (
talk) 23:27, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Question: How common is
WP:SKYISBLUE in cat discussions? Populating "[subject] in [medium]" cats based on superficially obvious elements seems decently common already, not every painting is going to have reputable sources identifying every minute detail with no further analysis.
Orchastrattor (
talk) 04:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment: I askedUser:Orchastrattor to revert the closing of this discussion, as being
involved, not following the steps at
WP:CfDClosings and being too early for a no consensus after just 7 days. If they don't self-revert, I or another editor will request to revert the closure e.g. at
WP:AN/I. I am fine with the removal of this comment if the closing is removed.
Place Clichy (
talk) 09:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Agree, but can someone please move "Murals about black people" to "Murals of black people" per parent-cats? That should be uncontroversial.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 10:39, 21 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 13:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 15:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Works set in computers
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Nominator's rationale: Should probably become a subcategory of
Category:Virtual reality works, not
Category:Computing. "In computers" can be vague, and refer to physically being inside a computer of some kind. This would, of course, imply the subcategories also get renamed.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 14:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. The new name better fits the contents. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 15:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Use bothCategory:Works set in computers and
Category:Works set in virtual worlds.
Tron is in part set inside a physical computer... Much of the last half of the original film occurs inside the
Mainframe computer and not inside a virtual environment. I believe there other works in the franchise with the same type of scenario. There is probably a case here for the existence of both categories and a need to double check that the articles are properly sorted.
4meter4 (
talk)
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:05, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support These seem to be works about virtual realities.
Dimadick (
talk) 09:16, 4 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish physicians by specialty
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Nominator's rationale: Non-defining intersection between ethnicity/religion and medical specialization. per
WP:EGRS/IMason (
talk) 15:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom, trivial intersections. Jewish ears and larynges are no different than Goy ones.
Place Clichy (
talk) 23:17, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:48, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Reconstructionist Jews by nationality
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Not helpful for navigation to only have two categories in here
Mason (
talk) 14:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Papua New Guinea national football team matches
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Nominator's rationale:WP:SMALLCAT with no chance of being increased
Joseph2302 (
talk) 12:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support It has not been proven that this team needs any subcategories. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 14:36, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions.
GiantSnowman 18:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep Standard for every national team's significant matches to have their own category. I would prefer changing the category's name to Papua New Guinea national soccer team matches per its main category.
KingSkyLord (
talk |
contribs) 17:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fair use media with non-commercial licenses
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Nominator's rationale:delete, the large amount of content is about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not about anti-racism broadly, not about the Arab world per se.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:58, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 23:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose The objection that there isn't enough content or that too much is Palestinian is specious. The lack of content is a suggestion that the categories should be added to.
Racism in the Arab world and opposition to it is notable. The lack of attention to Arab anti-racist movements is a reflection of Wikipedia's Eurocentrism, anti-Arabism, and erasure of Black Arabs and other racialized Arabs.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 08:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
See answer in discussion above.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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#Category:Arab anti-racism activists. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 13:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per Marcocapelle and my reasoning at
#Category:Arab anti-racism activists. The trouble with this category name is that it confuses a geographic area (the "Arab world", in which not all inhabitants self-identify as Arabs) and an ethnicity. That's a problem when the topic is anti-racism. It is safer, more convenient and in fact more precise to consider these topics by country and containerize categories through pre-existing regional category schemes such as Middle East. Also, this would have the benefit of avoiding unsolvable battles about e.g. whether Israel is in the Arab world.
Place Clichy (
talk) 04:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Arab anti-racism activists
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Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 23:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose The objection that there isn't enough content is specious. The lack of content is a suggestion that the categories should be added to.
Racism in the Arab world and opposition to it is notable. The lack of attention to Arab anti-racist movements is a reflection of Wikipedia's Eurocentrism, anti-Arabism, and erasure of Black Arabs and other racialized Arabs.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 08:03, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I have added mention of Ksiksi's anti-racist activism and her role in passing pioneering anti-racism legislation in Tunisia. Why an article on Tunisia's first Black MP didn't already mention it, I don't know.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 09:20, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Meanwhile someone purged the one article, which makes it even less necessary to keep the category. Surely en.wp is biased in coverage, but you can't blame categories for it. Categories merely follow what happens in article space.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I created categories for Tunisian anti-racism and anti-racists. There should be more content about Arab anti-racism and there are the sources to do it. I don't think the fact that these categories are now currently parent categories is a good reason to eliminate them.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 09:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete Incorrect juxtapostion of nationality and ethnicity; members of the subcategories currently here (which are based on nationality and type of activism) are not necessarily Arabs. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 06:15, 14 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 13:42, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. That notion would only be useful if there was a specific Arab anti-racism. I don't think there is such a thing, it's just anti-racism. In fact the suggestion that there would be a specific Arab anti-racism is racist in itself. Also, the stupidity of adding
Category:Moroccan anti-racism activists and
Category:Tunisian anti-racism activists to the Arab anti-racist category is that, in fact, they could or should include Berbers and members of other minorities fighting against discrimination from the Arab majority in these countries. So let's better stick to geography-based container categories.
Place Clichy (
talk) 03:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Han Chinese people
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Keep we should distinguish between Chinese nationals and ethnic Chinese and Chinese speakers. There are many ethnic Chinese not in China with articles, and many non-Han in China with articles. "Chinese people" is a category that is ambiguously named, it should state it is for Chinese nationals, instead of "Chinese people", which can refer to those of Han ethnicity, Han ancestry, Sinophones, writers of Chinese languages, genetic groupings, etc. (Same problem with "French people", "German people", etc, where the same term refers to languages, nationals, ethnicities) --
65.92.247.90 (
talk) 07:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Unless specified otherwise we mean people who have been living in China (or France or Germany for that matter) beyond being an expatriate. Distinguishing between Chinese nationals and ethnic (Han?) Chinese and Chinese speakers leads to a ridiculous amount of overlap.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. The distinction isn't helpful.
Mason (
talk) 03:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Spies by nationality
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Nominator's rationale:寒吉 (
talk) 11:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose, while you could well argue that spies ought to be categorized by country that they are spying for, that is currently not the case.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 12:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I think we could just create
Category:Spies by country and fill it up with subcategories about "Spies for X country".
AHI-3000 (
talk) 19:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 13:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Create a new tree as proposed by AHI-3000. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 14:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cyber Security by country
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Nominator's rationale: To match the parent (the three children of this one should have the same change)
Fram (
talk) 16:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. Makes it consistent.
Asmodea Oaktree (
talk) 17:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Works set on the moon
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Support, setting is presumably only relevant for fiction.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Oppose per zxcvbnm and agree, but definitely uppercase Moon per proper name and Wikipedia style.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 15:29, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Works set in outer space
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Nominator's rationale: Merge small categories without prejudice to re-creating if more members are found. –
FayenaticLondon 11:49, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose moving
Category:Musicals set on the moon to
Category:Musicals set in outer space. Not all works set on the moon are envisioned as an outer space setting, but are more of a planet type setting (the moon as a colony and with an atmosphere). Outer space refers to things set in the space in-between planetary objects. These category changes create inaccuracies.
4meter4 (
talk) 14:44, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose Unsurprisingly, the theatrical play
The Woman in the Moon (1593) is about a woman exiled to the
Earth's
Moon. There may be more depictions of the Moon in plays, since it is a main setting for the stories about the space-travels of
Baron Munchausen.
Dimadick (
talk) 12:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 13:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Massacres committed by anarchists
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Nominator's rationale: I'm not convinced that this intersection is defining/ok. I don't see any other categories like this, where the murder is defined by the political orientation of the killer. All the other examples in that category is based on specific organzations.
Mason (
talk) 06:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Your rename doesn't really address the core issue of violence by political orientation. Are there other categories like the one you've proposed?
Mason (
talk) 21:43, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. Agreed with the nom. This is a problem with the entire
Category:Terrorism by political orientation category unless the events can be made to shown that political orientation was a
"defining" motivation in the event (and not just a trait of the actor). See {{
Terrorism category definition}}. The articles in this category, if need be, are already covered in other subcategories related to the history of anarchism. czar 13:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Does anyone else find it odd that many articles in this list are about bombings? I wouldn't expect bombings to be described as massacres. You can massacre people with guns or swords or so on, but if you mass-kill people with a bomb, that's just... a bombing. It's not completely impossible (eg I can find hits for "Air India massacre" and "Lockerbie massacre" on google), but it's certainly not common, and it seems to me that the uses I turned up weren't examples of defining these bombings as massacres so much as a rhetorical twist to emphasize the horror for readers. Our own article on
massacres appears to agree with me. --
asilvering (
talk) 14:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. I think the category was created in good faith, but to be honest, only one of the events listed really meets the classical definition of a massacre, that being the
Eichenfeld massacre. The others are largely bombings, one case of a mass execution of prisoners of war and one is a mass murderer. These were all certainly awful, but don't qualify as "massacres" (i.e. mass killings of civilians by an armed group) in the same way Eichenfeld clearly does. I'd consider keeping this category if more clear-cut examples can be presented that justifies the category's existence. --
Grnrchst (
talk) 20:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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I note that meanwhile
Category:Anarchist terrorism has been created as a duplicate of the nominated category. Presumably, if there is consensus to delete the nominated category, its duplicate should be deleted too. And if kept they should be merged back. This is really a procedural mess.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose I disagree that the category "anarchist terrorism" should be deleted/merged. Anarchist terrorism is an actual subject of scholarly interest,
[2] I have a number of books on my shelf about it. But "massacres committed by anarchists" just are not.
[3] Someone may have merged the content of one into the other, but these are not the same category. One has a reason to exist, the other doesn't. --
Grnrchst (
talk) 10:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Category:Anarchist terrorism should be covered in a separate discussion. The point remains that the topics in this category are already covered under child categories of the History of anarchism category so there is no need for merger. czar 04:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Category:Anarchist terrorism should be considered separately. It shouldn't have been bundled with this nom as there is agreement that it is not a "duplicate" of the nominated category. czar 15:37, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Deaths by firearm in New York City
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Nominator's rationale: Per trivial cat, we don't categorize deaths by place; Also per WP:OCLOCATION. In the usa, category is as specific as the state because the categories are very large. The primary category is cause of death (that is then diffused by country).
Mason (
talk) 00:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
NYC may be big, but I don't think that alone is reason to diffuse to city.
Mason (
talk) 18:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom (or else merge per LaundryPizza03).
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep "we don't need to diffuse any further" According to whom and for what reason? Nearly all categories need further subcategories.
Dimadick (
talk) 20:19, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Keep Manhattan (which I checked) is quite large enough to keep. I expect the rest are too.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 19:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 13:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Suicides in New York City
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Nominator's rationale: Per trivial cat, we don't categorize deaths by place; Also per WP:OCLOCATION. In the usa, category is as specific as the state because the categories are very large. The primary category is cause of death (that is then diffused by country).
Mason (
talk) 00:50, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep According to PetScan, there are
248 articles that are not in the 9/11-related subcategories. For comparison,
there are 114 articles in the rest of the New York state tree. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 06:25, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
But why keep new york city? as opposed to the larger state like we do for other suicide categories.
Mason (
talk) 18:47, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep "Per trivial cat, we don't categorize deaths by place" Yet you suggesting merging to another category which does just that. And I do not see any reason to merge city-level categories to a category covering an entire
U.S. State.
Dimadick (
talk) 20:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Keep the two that I checked are well populated - well over 5 entries.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 19:24, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 13:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional self-sacrifices
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The result of the discussion was:delete. There is consensus that the current category name is bad. and weak consensus that deletion (rather than renaming) is the solution.
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 18:35, 28 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Real-life counterpart is
Category:Martyrs. Contested
WP:CFDS due to concerns that the martyr label is used mostly in a religious context, but that was contested as well due to concerns about definingness.
@
LaundryPizza03: not sure about this. The word martyr is mostly used in religious context.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle: I'm not sure simply a "self-sacrifice" is defining. Then again, I'm not sure if being a martyr is either.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 00:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per
User:Zxcvbnm unless someone comes up with sources that fictional sacrifices are really a thing.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 12:58, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indo-Europeanists
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Well, "Indo-Europeanist", because it is used
sometimes and I think that's better than coming up with our own term. –
Joe (
talk) 11:59, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Mild Support per nom. But I'm dubious this category should have as a sub the category (with a large tree below) for
Category:Linguists of Indo-European languages, bringing some odd people under it -
Ben Jonson and
Samuel Johnson to name but two, who would never have been aware that anything was "Indo-European". Not to mention
Varro.
Johnbod (
talk) 14:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 12:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 14:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indonesian-speaking people by occupation
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Nominator's rationale:merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:15, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indonesian-language culture
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. This category doesn't help navigation with only one category in it.
Mason (
talk) 04:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:15, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Neither child category indicates that their first language was that specific language
Mason (
talk) 03:46, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename and re-parent per nom.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:31, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Finnish people by first language
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Nominator's rationale: Neither of the child categories indicate that the speakers first spoke Russian or Swedish.
Mason (
talk) 03:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Oppose name change referring to 'Ancient Roman twins', just make them sound like elderly twins who live in Rome.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 14:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Sure, @
Omnis Scientia would you like to do the honors? @
Randy Kryn, all the ancient roman categories are named like this.
Mason (
talk) 22:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. (And thanks to the nom for moving this to full)
Mason (
talk) 02:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the ping. Support per being informed that all of the ancient Roman categories are styled like this. But "Ancient Roman twins" could be my Uncle Mortie and Aunt Rose (God bless their souls, under their real names, real birth order, and real nationalities, but you get the idea).
Randy Kryn (
talk) 03:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Music videos showing Sweden
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Nominator's rationale: These are minor subsets of
Category:Music videos shot in Sweden/
Stockholm, and there is no category scheme based on "recognisable features" shown in videos. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 22:25, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete All articles are already in the two "shot in" categories. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 03:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People of China
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Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category. Theoretically, there is room people with a defining link to a country but for whom we don't have any information or certainty about their citizenship of that country. However, it has proved not practically feasible to keep distinct category trees in the long run. Specifically, for a place with a history as long as China, there are times when going back in history where the notion of nationals vs. non-nationals just does not make sense. That's why individual people are at
Category:People by nationality and not at
Category:People by country.
Place Clichy (
talk) 22:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom, in practice "Chinese people" and "people in China" are indistinguishable, we cannot check people's passports.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Manual merge and redirect, following categorisation of siblings. E.g.
Expatriates in China should not go into the target; it is already correctly in
Demographics of China. The merge cannot be processed by bot as it is merger to a sub-cat. Redirection is desirable because there are many interwiki links. –
FayenaticLondon 09:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Could we at some point discuss the correct parenting of categories for expatriates, immigrants, diasporas etc.? Imho expatriates and diaspora categories should not be placed in Demographics of... categories but in Society of... as the people in these categories are not statistics and population science.
Place Clichy (
talk) 04:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Emigrants from Dutch Guiana to the United States
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Totally fine with this alt.
Mason (
talk) 02:12, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support use of Surinam, even for a period when it is anachronistic.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:20th-century executions by the District of Columbia
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Category:Lists of women government ministers by portfolio
Category:Fictional characters with schizoid personality disorder
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Nominator's rationale: In theory, this category should be upmerged for now, but it is not defining for the only character in here.
Mason (
talk) 20:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Emigrants from the Colony of Natal to the United Kingdom
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Support per nom, with regret, because South African is anachronistic.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Emigrants from Dutch Ceylon to France
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Nominator's rationale: Splitting animals by vertebrate/invertebrate seems to be
WP:NARROWCAT. Pointless new intersection that serves no useful purpose, just place them in
Category:Fictional animals by type instead. I should also note that real humans are technically "anthropomorphic vertebrates".
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 17:24, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
That many subcategories is not going to "overwhelm" anything. Wikipedia servers are not running on hamster wheels, they can handle categorizes with dozens of subcategories.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 22:56, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I am talking about simply browsing these pages. There's no pressing need to move 10 categories into another category right now.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 23:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support original nomination, this tree is not about biology, it is about fiction. Following scientific taxonomy unnecessary complicates the tree.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: One-entry category that will only isolate the article. Note that the article is also categorized in
Category:Asian folk dances.
Pichpich (
talk) 16:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom.
Gjs238 (
talk) 20:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American television producers
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish television producers. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American film directors
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish film directors. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American film producers
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish film producers. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional characters from the 6th millennium
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish chefs. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American lawyers
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Nominator's rationale: non-defining intersection per
WP:EGRSMason (
talk) 16:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep; there are other similar categories by ethnicity and it helps in diffusion. Actually, rather torn by this. Unlike chefs and inventors, I can see why lawyers are split by ethnicity.
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 19:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I was conflicted, @
Omnis Scientia, which is why I didn't bundle all the categories together. Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether their was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just Jewish lawyers.
Mason (
talk) 20:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Also sorry to spam the same comment at you. I wanted to make sure that the reasoning was clear if the nominations get separated when/if they're relisted.
Mason (
talk) 20:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle, the thing with these Cfd (and I've seen a few related to Jewish people in general where most decide they are NOT defining) is that we are deciding whether or not Jewish Americans are defining. I would say they very much are. And in case of Jewish Americans, unlike Jewish Britons for example, there are significant numbers to warrant categories like this one IF there is a precedence of categorization by ethnicities in an occupation which, in this case, there is (
Category:American lawyers by ethnic or national origin).
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 08:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
This comment entirely misses the intersection part in
WP:EGRS/I. Of course American Jewish/Jewish American identity is defining for many people, and the category to reflect that is
Category:American Jews.
Place Clichy (
talk) 08:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Place Clichy, again, you can apply this argument to any other ethnic group in the States, and there are other categories of
Category:American lawyers which could be against
WP:EGRS.
Dual merge (rather than splitting, and maybe that was the original intent). Jewish American lawyers practice the same law as other lawyers. While there are a number of American lawyers who are Jewish, and the Jewish American lawyer may be a racist cliché in itself, I don't believe that someone should be put in such a category if their professional practice does not deal with Jewish topics in a defining fashion. I believe that for law professionals active on Jewish legal topics such as civil rights,
Category:American Jewish anti-racism activists or
Category:Jewish American community activists may be better locations.
Place Clichy (
talk) 08:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Place Clichy, I don't agree in part because being a civil rights lawyer does not mean being an activist. And I don't agree with they "practice the same law as other lawyers" arguement because you can say that about any profession and category.
I'm very much in favor of keeping since there is precedence for dividing lawyers by ethnicity (non-American AND American).
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 09:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish American inventors
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Comment. If kept, I think that this category should be broadened to just
Category:Jewish inventors. (Effectively, my rule of thumb for nominating was whether there was a parent Jewish OCCUPATION category that wasn't diffused by nationality.)
Mason (
talk) 20:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Collections and books are rather different things, so I'm not sure why the category was created covering both. There's already
Category:Books of photographs, so the category members that are books should probably be split and merged there. I'm not sure if
Category:Photographic collections would be a clear title. I think museum and gallery collections is the intended meaning? Does anyone have a better alternative title?
Paul_012 (
talk) 13:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
You mean, keep the current title and structure, with "books" under "collections and books", and leave the articles about museum collections under the parent? That would preclude inclusion under
Category:Museum collections though. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 11:49, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I've reworded the proposal as such. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 07:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, it is currently a confusing category title that could do with being renamed/recategorised.
Sionk (
talk) 18:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People in Sámi history
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Nominator's rationale:delete, all people have lived in history at some point of time, this is not a defining characteristic. A merge is not needed, the articles are already in more appropriate Sámi subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
As far as I can tell this category was supposed to be about famous Sámi people in history, but if someone has managed to be added to Wikipedia, I think that is enough to say that they were famous Sámi people, so I agree that this category should be ditched. -
Yupik (
talk) 22:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep Until the 20th-century, the Sami people were not treated equally with Norwegians, Swedes and Finns in Norway, Sweden and Denmark. They did not always regard themselwes to be the subjects of these countries, but maintained their own separate culture and history. If this category is deleted, it would make it very hard to find Sami people of history, since they have no other such category. One would have to go through each individual article one by one, to find Sami people active prior to the 20th-century. There are no century-category of Sami people before the 20th-century. You could argue that centiry categories should be created instead of having this big category, but the problem is that the articles would, I believe, be to few to justify creating century categories before the 20th-century. Nevertheless, it is relevant to be able to find Sami people from history, particularly since their history was indeed separate from the history of other people of these realms. In the same fashion as, for example, "Category:19th-century Native Americans" have their own category. The Sami should not be treated differently.--
Aciram (
talk) 23:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Then by all means create 19th-century and 18th-century categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 04:07, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Thank you Aciram for bringing up this valid point! Based on your argument, I have changed my mind to oppose this category being deleted. -
Yupik (
talk) 09:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
It is not enough with creating century categories. Why? I mention it above: some of those categories would simply be too small, and yet there are still Sami people who played in important part in Sami history which we would not be able to find if this category is deleted.--
Aciram (
talk) 22:05, 18 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete with no objection to creating 18th and 19th century cats, that would create treat the Sami the same as the Native American categories. - 03:40, 10 December 2023 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
RevelationDirect (
talk •
contribs)
If there is another article about a 14th-century Sámi I will. In the current situation there is not much use of a category because there is no other article to navigate to when you are in
Margareta (missionary). Note that categories are meant to navigate between related articles. If you are interested in a complete list,
List of Sámi people and
List of Sámi women do a much better job.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:36, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. There is no point in time where history stops and the present starts. Timeless categories such as
Category:Sámi people and children categories by occupation, geography or group can have people from the past. Living people were also placed in this category (example). The argument that "If this category is deleted, it would make it very hard to find Sami people of history, since they have no other such category" is a cyclic argument, it does not demonstrate that there is such a concept as Sami people of history. A list article may be more efficient to underline the importance of some individual figures in Sámi history.
Place Clichy (
talk) 08:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment -- The Sami have been nomads, and to some extent still are, wandering between Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. They thus do not fit easily into national categories. The question is how the parent container for them should be named. 17th 18th and 19th century categories already exist, into which the articles ought to be dispersed.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:52, 25 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Magical girl characters in anime and manga
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Nominator's rationale: Case of clear
WP:OVERLAPCAT given that being a "magical girl" generally implies anime or manga origin. If anything, the ones in the parent category should probably be removed as miscategorized. Simply being a woman who uses magical powers does not imply being part of the magical girl genre.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 22:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment It already has. The
W.I.T.C.H. comic book series (2001-2012) and its animated adaptation, and the
Winx Club animated series (2004-2019) are Italian versions of the magical girl concept.
Dimadick (
talk) 20:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm not saying there are zero exceptions to the rule, but it feels like an overlap to have a separate category for characters specifically from anime and manga. There just aren't so many non anime/manga characters this is necessary.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 06:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:31, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Television shows set in Wales by city
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Nominator's rationale: There's only likely ever to be one category in this category (Wales' other major cities,
Swansea and
Newport are not centres of TV production to my knowledge) therefore this is an unnecessary category step. I suggest
Category:Television shows set in Cardiff is upmerged to the parent categories.
Sionk (
talk) 23:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
It would then probably be helpful to merge the siblings too. All of the United Kingdom would contain only 17 subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Then the question is (and I do not know the answer) whether a Swansea category and a Wrexham category could be decently populated.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, my point exactly, I can see only 2 series filmed in Swansea, which wouldn't be enough to justify a category
Sionk (
talk) 23:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The articles are already in established category trees. There's nothing to stop those two Swansea TV series being put in
Category:Culture in Swansea anyway. SMALLCAT is designed to prevent categories containing only one or two items (which would make them difficult to find).
Sionk (
talk) 12:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)reply
In that case, I meant to say "Overcategorization guidance", per my opening remarks.
Sionk (
talk) 16:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to parents per nom. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 19:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to eliminate an unnecessary layer. This should probably also be done to the Scottish and Northern Irish siblings (2 items each).
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Keep but Feel Free to Create Subcategory Since JTBC is the parent category and there are already two subcats for other subsidiaries, Zium and Drama House, just create a third subcategory. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:01, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment Creating a subcat is likely wrong as both JTBC Studios and SLL are the same and it was rebranded to the latter per
main article.
♒️ 98TIGERIUS 🐯 17:05, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the clarification. The
JTBC parent company article also reflects the rename so my iVote above is stricken. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 19:04, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Oppose. Film and television production company categories are never renamed. A show produced by company X was never produced by company B. That is just anachronistic and incorrect. What we do when a company is renamed, is make that the parent company of the former.
Gonnym (
talk) 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Gonnym can you provide a wikilink that supports your first sentence?
♒️ 98TIGERIUS 🐯 19:38, 11 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Can I find a link for something that doesn't happen? Well, you can look for the 20th centuary fox category rename one.
Gonnym (
talk) 22:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:22, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename "SLL" and "JTBC Studios" are effectively two names for the same entity - the category groups television series by the entity that produces them, not the name that entity went by.
* Pppery *it has begun... 21:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indo-European history
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Comment Seeing how the category is populated now, it appears to mix two different things: a) articles that discuss the historical development of Indo-European languages (which is a good match for the proposed target) and b) articles that relate to the pre-historical geographical migrations of speakers of early Indo-European languages (which would be better assigned to a new cat
Category:Indo-European migrations). –
Austronesier (
talk) 20:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Hm, with this limited amount of articles a split is not the most desirable option. Besides the migration is discussed in order to explain the spread of the language family.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Still the entire category lumps together two kinds of articles that are entirely unrelated to each other except for falling under the parent category
Category:Indo-European languages. Have a look especially at
Category:Indo-European language histories. These articles are about linguistic substance, i.e. how the phonology, grammar etc. of Indo-European languages have evolved from earlier attested or reconstructed stages. These "hard-core" linguistic topics are very remote from those that discuss the (pre-historical) spatial movements of peoples assumed to have spoken early Indo-European languages based on interdisciplinary interpretations of linguistic, archeaological and archaeogenetic data. –
Austronesier (
talk) 21:50, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Keep The articles are not entirely about linguistics. The category is only sparsely populated and splitting will leave two SMALL CATS, which someone will misguidedly want to delete. I agree it is not a well bounded category.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 21:09, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep The articles contained in the category are largely about migrations of people, rather than the spread of languages. Preserving this as a broad-concept category is preferable to splitting it into smallcats. And
Marcocapelle, I would advise you not to not make substantial rearrangements to categories ahead of nominating them as you did to this one,
[1] as that may
hampers other editors' efforts to evaluate a category and participate in the discussion.
Krakkos (
talk) 12:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sexuality and age in fiction
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: comments on both the rename and the proposal on containerization would be appreciated. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlastertalk 01:03, 4 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose – There are many other categories that use the format "X in fiction", for example many of the subcats in the given example
Category:Fiction about medicine and health. The current naming format also suits articles that discuss the use of those themes in fiction and not just instances of works using those themes. I think it just sounds less clunky too.
MClay1 (
talk) 12:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support containerize and rename per Marcocapelle. I don't understand MClay1's opposition to the rename given that the goal is to ensure that the content is defining. I don't know of any examples of articles that discuss those themes, and think that they'd fit just as well in the category as renamed.
Mason (
talk) 23:54, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:17, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename and containerise, per Marcocapelle, per nom. The target may be clunky, but it does at least clarify that it needs to be defining for the category members.
Qwerfjkltalk 17:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:20th-century assassinated Asian politicians
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The result of the discussion was:merge. There is consensus to merge, and weak consensus for the nom's target.
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 17:14, 28 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: I think we should just upmerge this category as there are only three categories total that contain nationality specific 20th-century assassinated politicians.
Mason (
talk) 00:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I had forgotten about this project I started. My plan was to populate it directly with politicians not with nationalities, as opposed to
Category:Assassinated politicians in Asia that is populated with subcategories of nationalities due to its extent. According to
the PetScan analysis, the nominated category has potentially more than 300 entries. Sincerely,
Thinker78(talk) 20:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC) Edited 23:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I would definitely recommend populating nationality categories (for the better populated countries only) rather than populating continent categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I concur. Nationality is helpful, much more so that continents.
Mason (
talk) 00:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I was doing that (20th-century assassinated Indian politicians, and Chinese) but there are only few of them. I think categorizing by continent is standard practice (cities in Asia, history of Asia, Asian cuisine, etc.). Given the large amount of individual pages in Category:Assassinated politicians in Asia, I think it would be also helpful to diffuse by intersection of at least 20t century assassinated politicians and assassinated politicians in Asia, although other diffusion schemes may be helpful as well. Btw, there is the
Category:20th century in Asia. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 17:53, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Category:Assassinated politicians in Asia is pretty well diffused by nationalities. I don't see why we'd need to add an additional intersection by century with continent. I don't think that categorizing by continent before nationality is standard practice. I'm not sure your examples are super relevant because they don't include examples of people or death, which seem to be the key features here, rather than the continent.
Mason (
talk) 21:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Regardless, it's a lot of work. Although any "standard practice" starts one day with an initial practice that was not standard. Sincerely, Thinker78(talk) 00:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Some countries like China and Japan have ancient histories. Diffusion can help navigate among at least two centuries, even in countries that were created in the 20th century. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 17:53, 9 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge, even if it would be expanded with more nationalities it remains to be seen if we need continent categories on top.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I'd like to note that even though Thinker78 has added more Asian nationalities, I don't see the advantage of isolating them from the only other nationality category France.
Mason (
talk) 20:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Because it is a nationality category being treated differently from all the other nationality categories.
Mason (
talk) 20:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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So the problem is that
Category:Assassinated politicians in Asia is supposed to be countries, rather than nationalities. So it would make an even bigger mess. The goal of the merge was to keep the nationalities in the 20th-century together, not further apart.
Mason (
talk) 21:23, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I tried to tidy up the category by bundling all the decades together,
20th-century assassinated politicians by decade, which I think is helpful if we must keep all the categories diffused by decade, personally I'd prefer we diffuse by nationality rather than decade.
Mason (
talk) 21:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm looking at the category I made, and I don't love it. I'm going to empty it and delete it.
Mason (
talk) 20:30, 14 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional characters with spirit possession or body swapping abilities
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I am not against that either. I will tag the target too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose merging either category into
Category:Fictional psychics. Mind control is a distinct type of (psychic) power, it's not the exact same thing as telepathy, and it's certainly very different from telekinesis.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 09:01, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge I'm not convinced that this is a "psychic" ability, but this is definitely an unnecessary lower layer. Consider also placing members in
Category:Fiction about spirit possession where applicable. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 10:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
A hypnotist is quite something different, isn't it?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
When it comes down to it, hypnosis in fiction is just one of many types of mind control.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 17:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
(response added after relisting) the difference between natural and supernatural forms of mind control seems too big to merge them together.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:22, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 12:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 15:46, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus to rename to "African", weak consensus to replace "about" with "of".
Nominator's rationale:rename and purge, "black" is too subjective a skin color (I learned that people of Indian descent may be included in "Black British") and likely to lead to original research.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
On the other hand, there are plenty of paintings of black models in Western Europe, such as France or the Netherlands. I doubt that these people identify as African, just as French and Dutch.
Ymblanter (
talk) 10:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Presumably there must be paintings of black people that are not from African countries. It doesn't make sense to me to have, say, an article on a painting of Barack Obama in the Paintings of African people cat.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 14:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I do think "Murals of" makes more sense though, "Murals with" would also make more sense.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 14:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
"Paintings" got speedy renamed from 'about' to 'of' so yes but they just forgot about the subcats.
Orchastrattor (
talk) 05:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment Page was created as part of a larger diffusion on
Category:Black people in art, children should not be renamed without renaming the entire tree.
Orchastrattor (
talk) 16:25, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, but two caveots. 1) I think an alternative name like people of African descent would require less purging; 2. Orchastrattor points out: we need to address the entire category tree.
Mason (
talk) 23:27, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Question: How common is
WP:SKYISBLUE in cat discussions? Populating "[subject] in [medium]" cats based on superficially obvious elements seems decently common already, not every painting is going to have reputable sources identifying every minute detail with no further analysis.
Orchastrattor (
talk) 04:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment: I askedUser:Orchastrattor to revert the closing of this discussion, as being
involved, not following the steps at
WP:CfDClosings and being too early for a no consensus after just 7 days. If they don't self-revert, I or another editor will request to revert the closure e.g. at
WP:AN/I. I am fine with the removal of this comment if the closing is removed.
Place Clichy (
talk) 09:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Agree, but can someone please move "Murals about black people" to "Murals of black people" per parent-cats? That should be uncontroversial.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 10:39, 21 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 15:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Works set in computers
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Nominator's rationale: Should probably become a subcategory of
Category:Virtual reality works, not
Category:Computing. "In computers" can be vague, and refer to physically being inside a computer of some kind. This would, of course, imply the subcategories also get renamed.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 14:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. The new name better fits the contents. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 15:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Use bothCategory:Works set in computers and
Category:Works set in virtual worlds.
Tron is in part set inside a physical computer... Much of the last half of the original film occurs inside the
Mainframe computer and not inside a virtual environment. I believe there other works in the franchise with the same type of scenario. There is probably a case here for the existence of both categories and a need to double check that the articles are properly sorted.
4meter4 (
talk)
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Support These seem to be works about virtual realities.
Dimadick (
talk) 09:16, 4 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish physicians by specialty
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Nominator's rationale: Non-defining intersection between ethnicity/religion and medical specialization. per
WP:EGRS/IMason (
talk) 15:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom, trivial intersections. Jewish ears and larynges are no different than Goy ones.
Place Clichy (
talk) 23:17, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:48, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Reconstructionist Jews by nationality
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Not helpful for navigation to only have two categories in here
Mason (
talk) 14:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Papua New Guinea national football team matches
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Nominator's rationale:WP:SMALLCAT with no chance of being increased
Joseph2302 (
talk) 12:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support It has not been proven that this team needs any subcategories. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 14:36, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions.
GiantSnowman 18:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 16:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep Standard for every national team's significant matches to have their own category. I would prefer changing the category's name to Papua New Guinea national soccer team matches per its main category.
KingSkyLord (
talk |
contribs) 17:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fair use media with non-commercial licenses
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Nominator's rationale:delete, the large amount of content is about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not about anti-racism broadly, not about the Arab world per se.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:58, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 23:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose The objection that there isn't enough content or that too much is Palestinian is specious. The lack of content is a suggestion that the categories should be added to.
Racism in the Arab world and opposition to it is notable. The lack of attention to Arab anti-racist movements is a reflection of Wikipedia's Eurocentrism, anti-Arabism, and erasure of Black Arabs and other racialized Arabs.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 08:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
See answer in discussion above.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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#Category:Arab anti-racism activists. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 13:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per Marcocapelle and my reasoning at
#Category:Arab anti-racism activists. The trouble with this category name is that it confuses a geographic area (the "Arab world", in which not all inhabitants self-identify as Arabs) and an ethnicity. That's a problem when the topic is anti-racism. It is safer, more convenient and in fact more precise to consider these topics by country and containerize categories through pre-existing regional category schemes such as Middle East. Also, this would have the benefit of avoiding unsolvable battles about e.g. whether Israel is in the Arab world.
Place Clichy (
talk) 04:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Arab anti-racism activists
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Support per nom
Mason (
talk) 23:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose The objection that there isn't enough content is specious. The lack of content is a suggestion that the categories should be added to.
Racism in the Arab world and opposition to it is notable. The lack of attention to Arab anti-racist movements is a reflection of Wikipedia's Eurocentrism, anti-Arabism, and erasure of Black Arabs and other racialized Arabs.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 08:03, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I have added mention of Ksiksi's anti-racist activism and her role in passing pioneering anti-racism legislation in Tunisia. Why an article on Tunisia's first Black MP didn't already mention it, I don't know.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 09:20, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Meanwhile someone purged the one article, which makes it even less necessary to keep the category. Surely en.wp is biased in coverage, but you can't blame categories for it. Categories merely follow what happens in article space.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I created categories for Tunisian anti-racism and anti-racists. There should be more content about Arab anti-racism and there are the sources to do it. I don't think the fact that these categories are now currently parent categories is a good reason to eliminate them.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 09:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete Incorrect juxtapostion of nationality and ethnicity; members of the subcategories currently here (which are based on nationality and type of activism) are not necessarily Arabs. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 06:15, 14 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 13:42, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. That notion would only be useful if there was a specific Arab anti-racism. I don't think there is such a thing, it's just anti-racism. In fact the suggestion that there would be a specific Arab anti-racism is racist in itself. Also, the stupidity of adding
Category:Moroccan anti-racism activists and
Category:Tunisian anti-racism activists to the Arab anti-racist category is that, in fact, they could or should include Berbers and members of other minorities fighting against discrimination from the Arab majority in these countries. So let's better stick to geography-based container categories.
Place Clichy (
talk) 03:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Han Chinese people
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Keep we should distinguish between Chinese nationals and ethnic Chinese and Chinese speakers. There are many ethnic Chinese not in China with articles, and many non-Han in China with articles. "Chinese people" is a category that is ambiguously named, it should state it is for Chinese nationals, instead of "Chinese people", which can refer to those of Han ethnicity, Han ancestry, Sinophones, writers of Chinese languages, genetic groupings, etc. (Same problem with "French people", "German people", etc, where the same term refers to languages, nationals, ethnicities) --
65.92.247.90 (
talk) 07:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Unless specified otherwise we mean people who have been living in China (or France or Germany for that matter) beyond being an expatriate. Distinguishing between Chinese nationals and ethnic (Han?) Chinese and Chinese speakers leads to a ridiculous amount of overlap.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. The distinction isn't helpful.
Mason (
talk) 03:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Spies by nationality
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Nominator's rationale:寒吉 (
talk) 11:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose, while you could well argue that spies ought to be categorized by country that they are spying for, that is currently not the case.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 12:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I think we could just create
Category:Spies by country and fill it up with subcategories about "Spies for X country".
AHI-3000 (
talk) 19:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 13:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Create a new tree as proposed by AHI-3000. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 14:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cyber Security by country
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Nominator's rationale: To match the parent (the three children of this one should have the same change)
Fram (
talk) 16:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. Makes it consistent.
Asmodea Oaktree (
talk) 17:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Works set on the moon
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Support, setting is presumably only relevant for fiction.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Oppose per zxcvbnm and agree, but definitely uppercase Moon per proper name and Wikipedia style.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 15:29, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Works set in outer space
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Nominator's rationale: Merge small categories without prejudice to re-creating if more members are found. –
FayenaticLondon 11:49, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose moving
Category:Musicals set on the moon to
Category:Musicals set in outer space. Not all works set on the moon are envisioned as an outer space setting, but are more of a planet type setting (the moon as a colony and with an atmosphere). Outer space refers to things set in the space in-between planetary objects. These category changes create inaccuracies.
4meter4 (
talk) 14:44, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose Unsurprisingly, the theatrical play
The Woman in the Moon (1593) is about a woman exiled to the
Earth's
Moon. There may be more depictions of the Moon in plays, since it is a main setting for the stories about the space-travels of
Baron Munchausen.
Dimadick (
talk) 12:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Massacres committed by anarchists
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Nominator's rationale: I'm not convinced that this intersection is defining/ok. I don't see any other categories like this, where the murder is defined by the political orientation of the killer. All the other examples in that category is based on specific organzations.
Mason (
talk) 06:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Your rename doesn't really address the core issue of violence by political orientation. Are there other categories like the one you've proposed?
Mason (
talk) 21:43, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. Agreed with the nom. This is a problem with the entire
Category:Terrorism by political orientation category unless the events can be made to shown that political orientation was a
"defining" motivation in the event (and not just a trait of the actor). See {{
Terrorism category definition}}. The articles in this category, if need be, are already covered in other subcategories related to the history of anarchism. czar 13:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Does anyone else find it odd that many articles in this list are about bombings? I wouldn't expect bombings to be described as massacres. You can massacre people with guns or swords or so on, but if you mass-kill people with a bomb, that's just... a bombing. It's not completely impossible (eg I can find hits for "Air India massacre" and "Lockerbie massacre" on google), but it's certainly not common, and it seems to me that the uses I turned up weren't examples of defining these bombings as massacres so much as a rhetorical twist to emphasize the horror for readers. Our own article on
massacres appears to agree with me. --
asilvering (
talk) 14:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. I think the category was created in good faith, but to be honest, only one of the events listed really meets the classical definition of a massacre, that being the
Eichenfeld massacre. The others are largely bombings, one case of a mass execution of prisoners of war and one is a mass murderer. These were all certainly awful, but don't qualify as "massacres" (i.e. mass killings of civilians by an armed group) in the same way Eichenfeld clearly does. I'd consider keeping this category if more clear-cut examples can be presented that justifies the category's existence. --
Grnrchst (
talk) 20:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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I note that meanwhile
Category:Anarchist terrorism has been created as a duplicate of the nominated category. Presumably, if there is consensus to delete the nominated category, its duplicate should be deleted too. And if kept they should be merged back. This is really a procedural mess.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose I disagree that the category "anarchist terrorism" should be deleted/merged. Anarchist terrorism is an actual subject of scholarly interest,
[2] I have a number of books on my shelf about it. But "massacres committed by anarchists" just are not.
[3] Someone may have merged the content of one into the other, but these are not the same category. One has a reason to exist, the other doesn't. --
Grnrchst (
talk) 10:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Category:Anarchist terrorism should be covered in a separate discussion. The point remains that the topics in this category are already covered under child categories of the History of anarchism category so there is no need for merger. czar 04:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Category:Anarchist terrorism should be considered separately. It shouldn't have been bundled with this nom as there is agreement that it is not a "duplicate" of the nominated category. czar 15:37, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Deaths by firearm in New York City
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Nominator's rationale: Per trivial cat, we don't categorize deaths by place; Also per WP:OCLOCATION. In the usa, category is as specific as the state because the categories are very large. The primary category is cause of death (that is then diffused by country).
Mason (
talk) 00:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
NYC may be big, but I don't think that alone is reason to diffuse to city.
Mason (
talk) 18:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom (or else merge per LaundryPizza03).
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep "we don't need to diffuse any further" According to whom and for what reason? Nearly all categories need further subcategories.
Dimadick (
talk) 20:19, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Keep Manhattan (which I checked) is quite large enough to keep. I expect the rest are too.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 19:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Suicides in New York City
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Nominator's rationale: Per trivial cat, we don't categorize deaths by place; Also per WP:OCLOCATION. In the usa, category is as specific as the state because the categories are very large. The primary category is cause of death (that is then diffused by country).
Mason (
talk) 00:50, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep According to PetScan, there are
248 articles that are not in the 9/11-related subcategories. For comparison,
there are 114 articles in the rest of the New York state tree. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 06:25, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
But why keep new york city? as opposed to the larger state like we do for other suicide categories.
Mason (
talk) 18:47, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep "Per trivial cat, we don't categorize deaths by place" Yet you suggesting merging to another category which does just that. And I do not see any reason to merge city-level categories to a category covering an entire
U.S. State.
Dimadick (
talk) 20:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Keep the two that I checked are well populated - well over 5 entries.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 19:24, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional self-sacrifices
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The result of the discussion was:delete. There is consensus that the current category name is bad. and weak consensus that deletion (rather than renaming) is the solution.
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 18:35, 28 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Real-life counterpart is
Category:Martyrs. Contested
WP:CFDS due to concerns that the martyr label is used mostly in a religious context, but that was contested as well due to concerns about definingness.
@
LaundryPizza03: not sure about this. The word martyr is mostly used in religious context.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle: I'm not sure simply a "self-sacrifice" is defining. Then again, I'm not sure if being a martyr is either.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 00:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per
User:Zxcvbnm unless someone comes up with sources that fictional sacrifices are really a thing.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indo-Europeanists
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Well, "Indo-Europeanist", because it is used
sometimes and I think that's better than coming up with our own term. –
Joe (
talk) 11:59, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Mild Support per nom. But I'm dubious this category should have as a sub the category (with a large tree below) for
Category:Linguists of Indo-European languages, bringing some odd people under it -
Ben Jonson and
Samuel Johnson to name but two, who would never have been aware that anything was "Indo-European". Not to mention
Varro.
Johnbod (
talk) 14:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 14:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indonesian-speaking people by occupation
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Nominator's rationale:merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:15, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indonesian-language culture
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. This category doesn't help navigation with only one category in it.
Mason (
talk) 04:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:15, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Neither child category indicates that their first language was that specific language
Mason (
talk) 03:46, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename and re-parent per nom.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:31, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Finnish people by first language
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Neither of the child categories indicate that the speakers first spoke Russian or Swedish.
Mason (
talk) 03:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.