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Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 |
Boldly closing this and tweaking the heading. It's not fair to Bradv to have this conversation on his public usertalk when he's not around. If I were feeling a bit bolder, I'd blank this whole section with advice to handle this privately per what others wrote, and an FYI that this is a very common scam. Obviously if anyone objects they can undo this. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:17, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I have what seems to me a credible report that you have been recommending to people that they use WikiExperts. Is this true? The report I have is that you contacted someone through Whatsapp to recommend WikiExperts, who then charged someone $15,000 for an article in Wikipedia. I am asking you because if so, then you definitely should not be an admin in English Wikipedia. If it is a lie, then fine. But please tell me the truth. Jimbo Wales ( talk) 22:15, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
I am very disappointed in what I am seeing here. Jimbo Wales, have you emailed Arbcom about this? Unlike everyone else, I am not going to be quick to jump to Bradv's side. However, you should have contacted Arbcom, and not publicly humiliated him on his talk page. I am keeping an open mind on this, but if the allegations turn out to be nonsense, I think you owe him an apology. Scorpions13256 ( talk) 00:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
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Thanks, obviously I'm not expecting you to respond in the matter, just making you aware as required. -- Amanda (she/her) 23:15, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
I have spent the last several hours reading through the conversation on my talk page and elsewhere over the past few days. While much of what needed to be said has been said already, I thought I would write down a few thoughts of my own, and perhaps reiterate the wise words of others.
First of all, thank you to all those who came to my defence. Not only is it heart-warming to see this level of support from the community, you have all made excellent points that ultimately raise awareness of issues involved paid editing, off-wiki communication, and administrator competence.
Obviously, the allegations made by Jimbo Wales are entirely untrue and without merit. I don't really feel the need to respond to them, but I would be remiss in posting a message here without including this point.
Sadly, the practice of conning potential article subjects for outrageous sums of money is all too common. Jimbo makes the point that we need to do a better job of communicating the risks involved in hiring paid editors, and on this point I wholeheartedly agree. In my time as an arbitrator I encountered several instances of people paying for articles and then emailing ArbCom when they ultimately got ripped off. The point I always want to make to these people, and the one we should be shouting from the rooftops, is that you do not need to pay to have an article written about you. If you or the things you've done really are worthy of an article, we will write it for free.
Not only do we need to communicate these risks to our readers, it seems we also need to do a better job of communicating that to our editors. Any one who wants to be active in the area of combatting undisclosed paid editing needs to watch out for scams, including blackmail, extortion, and obvious joe jobs. This includes the most basic steps of checking someone's contributions before accusing them of impropriety. And if the evidence is unclear, getting a second opinion from someone else experienced in this area of editing before publicizing allegations, especially those involving off-wiki conduct, is imperative.
While I have not received an apology from Jimbo for anything beyond the "tone" of his inquiry, I do not require one. I don't believe the initial query was made out of malice. Rather, Jimbo has been disconnected from the community for quite some time, and does not have a full appreciation of the depth of knowledge and experience that the editing community has in dealing with issues like these. I am pleased that Jimbo has recognized this and resigned many of his advanced user rights, instead entrusting them solely to those trusted by the community.
Lastly, as a former arb I can't help but point out that the laying down of these tools was done under a cloud, and should not be restored without community consensus. (Seriously, I tried to not include this point, but it really needs to be said.) – bradv 04:21, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
I clearly included the detail that the "someone (who) evidently thought it a worthy redirect" was a multi-banned series of sock puppets, who interfered in the {{ Db-author's}} own, immediate, choice. A bogus user has more authority than both the author and a real user? Jmg38 ( talk) 02:11, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 17:11, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
I don't normally delete ordure from my talk page, but I thank you for doing it. I imagine you have done mass revert of whatever bile that was, spread across multiple talk pages. It was unreadable anyway, being a rant. Yes, I looked! 😇😈 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 21:53, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello Bradv, maybe I am wrong, but to me this looks like a collaborative message [1] and I'd be inclined to restore it and thank the unregistered user who left it. I believe that the message is intended to foster evidence-gathering and discussions at ArbCom. But maybe I'm missing something and I'd like to ask your opinion before restoring it. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 23:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Smallbones( smalltalk) 17:45, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
The reason I prefer email is that I don't have to go thru writing and editing the article on-Wiki while two or three people watch over my shoulder. Have you ever tried doing that and answering their questions at the same time?well...Brad is a former arbitrator... GeneralNotability ( talk) 00:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Favourite quote, from Beeblebrox ( here):
The supposed smoking gun was a screenshot from someone calling themselves "Wikipedia editor" that supposedly proved that this person as Bradv. The proof they submitted of their identity as a Wikipedia admin was very obviously either photoshopped or faked up on a private wiki. Anyone even mildly familiar with Wikipedia terminology and processes could see it was a fake. It also showed BradV signing a post with a full last name, which he never did that I know of. I have no idea if the name I saw even is Brad's real last name. The point is it was laughably fake, to the point where I suspect Jimbo probably had not even actually seen it with his own eyes before he went after Brad, and ego got in his way after that.
The scammers clearly knew they had a whale here, someone who had money, wanted an article about themselves, and had absolutely no understanding whatsoever of what Wikipedia is and how it works. They just wanted to buy their way in, and only became upset when they did not get the results they were paying for. So, they reached out to who they assumed was the guy who actually runs everything, Jimbo, to talk one rich overlord to another.
In short: the person Jimbo has been referring to as "the victim" is a rich person who wanted to buy their portion of Wikipedia. They were led to believe they were buying off admins and arbs to make sure their article was bulletproof. I have zero sympathy for them. If 20K was really that big of a deal to them, they would not have spent it on something they clearly knew nothing about. The victim here is Wikipedia, and BradV in particular.
Chances of seeing criticism like that featured at the under-a-cloud Signpost, though... probably not great. It seem that to its editor/s, the emperor must remain clothed! Good to see you, Brad. You've been missed. El_C 06:50, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
You blocked Special:Contributions/Justin Kurt E. Toboso, but now there’s Special:Contributions/Justin Toboso. 100.36.106.199 ( talk) 13:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
I don't disagree, but ugh I was hoping for a different outcome. Thanks for stepping up! Valereee ( talk) 16:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi Bradv,
Thank you for the close of this RfC, but I believe it was mistaken on several grounds and I hope you will be willing to review it.
First, you say many of them cannot be improved
. This is the reason for the proposal and the significant support for it; it seems odd to use the reason for the proposal as justification against implementing it. I also don't believe this was presented as an argument against draftifying in the debate, which makes it an inappropriate argument to raise in the close.
Second, you say there is no clear route for them to get out of incubation and back into mainspace
. That isn't accurate; the proposal provided a clearly defined process with Any draft (whether in draftspace, userspace, or WikiProject space) can be returned to mainspace when it contains sources that plausibly meet
WP:GNG
.
Third, you say Furthermore, the policy states that incubation must not be used as a "backdoor to deletion", an argument that was not adequately refuted by the supporters of this particular proposal.
This argument was refuted by supporters on three grounds. First, editors who wish to preserve the articles for longer are empowered to move it to user space or project space. Second, editors who wish to preserve the content in mainspace are empowered to do so by moving the article back and converting it into a redirect. Third, the proposal includes the auto-delete period being extended from 6 months to 5 years.
Fourth, I believe
WP:NOTBURO applies;
WP:ATD-I says that moving articles to draft space should generally be done only for newly created articles (typically as part of new page review) or as the result of a deletion discussion
. The principle here appears to be that draftification shouldn't happen without discussion; while the letter says that the discussion has to be an AfD it would appear to be an an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policies
to disregard an RfC with far more participation than almost all AfD's because the discussion is in a different format. This is also supported by the discussion you linked; many of the !votes for option one, as well as the close (Instead of unilaterally draftifying an unsuitable-for-mainspace article that is not newly created, editors should instead nominate the article for deletion, e.g. via WP:PROD or WP:AFD.
), appear to have been focused on preventing unilateral draftification, rather than on limiting draftification to AfD.
I also believe that it may have been better for you to allow another editor to close the discussion on the grounds of
WP:INVOLVED; you have been involved in a previous dispute on the topic of whether draft space should be used in this manner with you taking the position Draftifying articles as an alternative to deletion should only be done for brand-new articles where the author is still available to work on it, or in cases where someone asks to put it in draftspace so they can fix it up to avoid deletion.
This argument could have been applied verbatim to this proposal as an argument against, and as such I think you should be participating, not closing.
BilledMammal (
talk) 16:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
It is inappropriate for articles that cannot be improved to be moved to draftspace.That isn't entirely true. It is only inappropriate for articles that we are know cannot be improved to be moved to draftspace - we move articles to draft space without a guarantee that they can be improved all the time. In this case, while we expect that most of these articles cannot be improved, we don't know which ones can and cannot be; as such, we are in compliance with the policy. Further, as I pointed out, this appears to be a novel argument and as the closer you shouldn't be making novel arguments in your close as it prevents editors who disagree with the argument from presenting a rebuttal to it.
If the proposal was to delete the articles, and it had reached a consensus to the level expected at AfD, I would agree.I'm not certain what the point is here - are you saying that if the proposal had been to delete the articles, but instead the discussion had gone the way it had with minimal support for deletion but considerable support for draftification, there would have been a consensus for draftification?
And on your final point, the statement that you quote is pretty much a direct quote from the policy.It is a more restrictive version of policy; you argue it should only be used when an editor is committed to working on it, while policy permits it for any new article and for any article where there is a consensus for draftification at AfD. This is also why making that !vote in the discussion wouldn't have been decisive; editors could have rebutted it by pointing to this second permitted use and WP:NOTBURO. Further, I don't believe that changes whether you were involved; you were a party to a prior dispute on this topic and as far as I can tell none of the exceptions to WP:INVOLVED apply here. BilledMammal ( talk) 16:38, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Recently created articles that have potential, but that do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the draft namespace ("draftified") for improvement, with the aim of eventually moving them back to the main namespace. Draftspace is for new articles that can be improved, it is not a purgatory for articles yet to be judged. That is not my opinion; it's what the policy says, and what was brought up by numerous participants in the discussion. Re paragraph 2, I'm saying if this was a deletion discussion, and it reached a consensus to delete, it would be appropriate to delete the articles even if it wasn't held at the conventional venue. And on your final point, I based my close on the consensus of the discussion, drawing in the concerns raised by the various participants there and evaluating them against our existing policies and conventions. I believe this is clear from my statement, but if you still disagree you are welcome to take to AN for review. – bradv 17:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Older articles should not be draftified without an AfD consensus, with 90 days a rule of thumb)
Re paragraph 2, I'm saying if this was a deletion discussion, and it reached a consensus to delete, it would be appropriate to delete the articles even if it wasn't held at the conventional venue.And if it reached a consensus to draftify? BilledMammal ( talk) 17:14, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Considering that discussions held at the village pump and attended by around 100 editors can alter what is permitted, if the RfC question had been Should the following biographical microstubs, which were mass-created by Lugnuts and cover non-medalling Olympians who competed between 1896 and 1912, be moved out of article space and should this RfC be permitted to draftify these articles?
(additions in bold) would that have altered the close?
BilledMammal (
talk) 23:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for vacating this decision. For the record I don’t think this is going to be an easy close for anyone (not least technically not an easy one to execute if it is passed!) and, though I disagreed with your close as an assessment of the consensus and P&Gs, I did not buy the argument that you were WP:Involved. FOARP ( talk) 03:59, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello Bradv, it is good to see that you have returned (even if the circumstances of your return were not so pleasant). I was wondering if you might have time to change the "ds alerts" button to read "ct alerts" over at superlinks after the recent rename? Thank you for creating that script; it is extremely useful! Best, House Blaster talk 17:08, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi, regarding your decline of a CSD, I think that page should be deleted under WP:U2. Although it is on a renamed user space, it was created after the user was renamed and isn't a redirect to their current talk page so my understanding is it should be deleted (and has been deleted once after I had tagged it a few days ago before the same user recreated, I'm not sure why they're doing that.) It's very likely I'm missing something so that's partly why I'm asking for clarification. Also do you think it makes sense to reach out to the user that had created to to see if they need some assistance? Thanks! Skynxnex ( talk) 18:14, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2023).
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Hi Bradv,
70.183.208.109 (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
filter log ·
WHOIS ·
RDNS ·
RBLs ·
http ·
block user ·
block log) is most likely block evasion of
2600:8807:a00:23::/64 (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
filter log ·
WHOIS ·
RBLs ·
block user ·
block log),
8.48.252.99 (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
filter log ·
WHOIS ·
RDNS ·
RBLs ·
http ·
block user ·
block log), and
209.124.214.173 (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
filter log ·
WHOIS ·
RDNS ·
RBLs ·
http ·
block user ·
block log). Thank you for blocking
70.183.208.109 as they have been
harassing me on my Talk. Notice 70.183.208.109 and 209.124.214.173 posted almost the same thing on my Talk. —
YoungForever
(talk) 23:37, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
user:Maram ahmari (who you blocked for 24 hours for deleting sourced content at Mecca) is doing it again. Given the lack of response, a full WP:NOTHERE block seems appropriate to me. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 20:04, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
Hello, Bradv,
This page shows up on lists of nonexistent editors that should be deleted (see this list) and I'm not the only editor who runs these types of queries. And I see that you have put full protection on the page. Can it still be deleted or a redirect put on it so that it doesn't appear on lists of pages that should be deleted? Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 23:40, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
My apologies, but I'm the naive fool that tried to reclose a certain RfC you may be trying hard to forget. I tried to acknowledge my debt to you, and realized very well my close might be reopened again, but now in that reopen request a number of people are saying we should go back to your close despite your withdrawing it. I just wrote a long paragraph about how we should take your close withdrawal at face value, and, that, honestly, the people who think they're supporting you by saying we shouldn't are not actually doing you any favors; but maybe I'm wrong, and I thought I should give you the chance to say something about it.
If your answer is something like: "I'd rather eat worms than participate one way or the other, and if no one ever mentioned it to me again, I could die a happy man," then that is a perfectly reasonable response, and if that is the case, then say that, or even just revert my edit here on your talk page, and I promise I won't bother you about it again. -- GRuban ( talk) 15:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
FYI since you issued a previous block of this user, who is now doing more of the same. diff1, diff2 Funcrunch ( talk) 02:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Re your question... Semi-protecting the page General relativity springs to mind . If they persist, I'll file a request. Cheers! - DVdm ( talk) 09:32, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
This account isn't just a spam account, but a LTA known as House of Yahweh and Piermark ( long-term abuse case page). Just thought I'd let you know. Also, most of their accounts have such long names, which is usually an easy way of telling which accounts are HoY socks. LilianaUwU ( talk / contribs) 23:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2023).
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That's twice today you've popped in with some much appreciated backup. Thanks for that. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 00:10, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
You recently deleted the draft page for Bruno Gouery based on copyright infringement. The text was virtually identical to the Bruno Gouery page at wikiake and wikitia. But this happened because those sites copied the text that I had written on wikipedia not the other way around. The article was resubmitted to move from the draft space to the main space in January or early February. By checking the wayback machine you can see that the wikiake page appeared in March 2023 while the text for the wikipedia page predates that. The wikitia page was created on 9 February 2023. At the bottom the wikitia article states "This article "Bruno Gouery" is from Wikipedia. The list of its authors can be seen in its historical. Articles taken from Draft Namespace on Wikipedia could be accessed on Wikipedia's Draft Namespace. "
Please restore the page and move it into the main space. Thank you. Uwhoff ( talk) 01:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi Brad! I wanted to follow up with you regarding a point you made at User talk:Theanonymoustypist, and as this doesn't relate exactly to that discussion, I figured we could spare that user the emails.
Leaving aside the specific draft we were discussing, you mentioned that the list article is full of redlinks. Because this is English Wikipedia, there is a WP:Systemic bias against topics not in the Anglosphere; thus, an article of a German state legislator is inherently less likely to exist than, say, an article on an American state legislator, even though they are both equally notable. Regards, Curbon7 ( talk) 04:50, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Why on earth do you barge in and just cut and AFD short?? Why not just respect Wikipedia procedure and let it's run its course. I had not even been running for an hour! T v x1 00:15, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
I created a Wikipedia page for an Indian Educational material publisher by the name of Oswaal Books which publish content for all schools from standard 1-12 and preparation material for major exams. Oswaal Books was established in 1984 as one of the oldest education provider in India. I even did citation of all major links supporting the submitted information.
May I know where I lacked as it was marked for deletion? Creator1998 ( talk) 02:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
This user has publicly declared that they have a conflict of interest regarding the Wikipedia article Oswaal Books." – bradv 02:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Hello Bradv,
The New Page Patrol team is sending you this impromptu message to inform you of a steeply rising backlog of articles needing review. If you have any extra time to spare, please consider reviewing one or two articles each day to help lower the backlog. You can start reviewing by visiting Special:NewPagesFeed. Thank you very much for your help.
Reminders:
Sent by Zippybonzo using MediaWiki message delivery at 06:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2023).
Hello User:Bradv, I'm hoping to obtain clarification from you as to why you placed a notability tag on No Mafia as the article as drafted contains four product reviews that meet the criteria specified in WP:RESTAURANTREVIEWS. Three are from The West Australian, and one is in the Sydney Morning Herald. Two of those reviews are from the very well-established food reviewer Rob Broadfield. Jack4576 ( talk) 02:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Ng12345678 says in his talk page that he is Ng1234567, i think you should change his block message to sockpuppetry. Notrealname1234 ( talk) 14:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Four years! |
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-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 |
Boldly closing this and tweaking the heading. It's not fair to Bradv to have this conversation on his public usertalk when he's not around. If I were feeling a bit bolder, I'd blank this whole section with advice to handle this privately per what others wrote, and an FYI that this is a very common scam. Obviously if anyone objects they can undo this. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:17, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I have what seems to me a credible report that you have been recommending to people that they use WikiExperts. Is this true? The report I have is that you contacted someone through Whatsapp to recommend WikiExperts, who then charged someone $15,000 for an article in Wikipedia. I am asking you because if so, then you definitely should not be an admin in English Wikipedia. If it is a lie, then fine. But please tell me the truth. Jimbo Wales ( talk) 22:15, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
I am very disappointed in what I am seeing here. Jimbo Wales, have you emailed Arbcom about this? Unlike everyone else, I am not going to be quick to jump to Bradv's side. However, you should have contacted Arbcom, and not publicly humiliated him on his talk page. I am keeping an open mind on this, but if the allegations turn out to be nonsense, I think you owe him an apology. Scorpions13256 ( talk) 00:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
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You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Paid editing recruitment allegation and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.
Thanks, obviously I'm not expecting you to respond in the matter, just making you aware as required. -- Amanda (she/her) 23:15, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
I have spent the last several hours reading through the conversation on my talk page and elsewhere over the past few days. While much of what needed to be said has been said already, I thought I would write down a few thoughts of my own, and perhaps reiterate the wise words of others.
First of all, thank you to all those who came to my defence. Not only is it heart-warming to see this level of support from the community, you have all made excellent points that ultimately raise awareness of issues involved paid editing, off-wiki communication, and administrator competence.
Obviously, the allegations made by Jimbo Wales are entirely untrue and without merit. I don't really feel the need to respond to them, but I would be remiss in posting a message here without including this point.
Sadly, the practice of conning potential article subjects for outrageous sums of money is all too common. Jimbo makes the point that we need to do a better job of communicating the risks involved in hiring paid editors, and on this point I wholeheartedly agree. In my time as an arbitrator I encountered several instances of people paying for articles and then emailing ArbCom when they ultimately got ripped off. The point I always want to make to these people, and the one we should be shouting from the rooftops, is that you do not need to pay to have an article written about you. If you or the things you've done really are worthy of an article, we will write it for free.
Not only do we need to communicate these risks to our readers, it seems we also need to do a better job of communicating that to our editors. Any one who wants to be active in the area of combatting undisclosed paid editing needs to watch out for scams, including blackmail, extortion, and obvious joe jobs. This includes the most basic steps of checking someone's contributions before accusing them of impropriety. And if the evidence is unclear, getting a second opinion from someone else experienced in this area of editing before publicizing allegations, especially those involving off-wiki conduct, is imperative.
While I have not received an apology from Jimbo for anything beyond the "tone" of his inquiry, I do not require one. I don't believe the initial query was made out of malice. Rather, Jimbo has been disconnected from the community for quite some time, and does not have a full appreciation of the depth of knowledge and experience that the editing community has in dealing with issues like these. I am pleased that Jimbo has recognized this and resigned many of his advanced user rights, instead entrusting them solely to those trusted by the community.
Lastly, as a former arb I can't help but point out that the laying down of these tools was done under a cloud, and should not be restored without community consensus. (Seriously, I tried to not include this point, but it really needs to be said.) – bradv 04:21, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
I clearly included the detail that the "someone (who) evidently thought it a worthy redirect" was a multi-banned series of sock puppets, who interfered in the {{ Db-author's}} own, immediate, choice. A bogus user has more authority than both the author and a real user? Jmg38 ( talk) 02:11, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 17:11, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
I don't normally delete ordure from my talk page, but I thank you for doing it. I imagine you have done mass revert of whatever bile that was, spread across multiple talk pages. It was unreadable anyway, being a rant. Yes, I looked! 😇😈 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 21:53, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello Bradv, maybe I am wrong, but to me this looks like a collaborative message [1] and I'd be inclined to restore it and thank the unregistered user who left it. I believe that the message is intended to foster evidence-gathering and discussions at ArbCom. But maybe I'm missing something and I'd like to ask your opinion before restoring it. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 23:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Smallbones( smalltalk) 17:45, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
The reason I prefer email is that I don't have to go thru writing and editing the article on-Wiki while two or three people watch over my shoulder. Have you ever tried doing that and answering their questions at the same time?well...Brad is a former arbitrator... GeneralNotability ( talk) 00:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Favourite quote, from Beeblebrox ( here):
The supposed smoking gun was a screenshot from someone calling themselves "Wikipedia editor" that supposedly proved that this person as Bradv. The proof they submitted of their identity as a Wikipedia admin was very obviously either photoshopped or faked up on a private wiki. Anyone even mildly familiar with Wikipedia terminology and processes could see it was a fake. It also showed BradV signing a post with a full last name, which he never did that I know of. I have no idea if the name I saw even is Brad's real last name. The point is it was laughably fake, to the point where I suspect Jimbo probably had not even actually seen it with his own eyes before he went after Brad, and ego got in his way after that.
The scammers clearly knew they had a whale here, someone who had money, wanted an article about themselves, and had absolutely no understanding whatsoever of what Wikipedia is and how it works. They just wanted to buy their way in, and only became upset when they did not get the results they were paying for. So, they reached out to who they assumed was the guy who actually runs everything, Jimbo, to talk one rich overlord to another.
In short: the person Jimbo has been referring to as "the victim" is a rich person who wanted to buy their portion of Wikipedia. They were led to believe they were buying off admins and arbs to make sure their article was bulletproof. I have zero sympathy for them. If 20K was really that big of a deal to them, they would not have spent it on something they clearly knew nothing about. The victim here is Wikipedia, and BradV in particular.
Chances of seeing criticism like that featured at the under-a-cloud Signpost, though... probably not great. It seem that to its editor/s, the emperor must remain clothed! Good to see you, Brad. You've been missed. El_C 06:50, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
You blocked Special:Contributions/Justin Kurt E. Toboso, but now there’s Special:Contributions/Justin Toboso. 100.36.106.199 ( talk) 13:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
I don't disagree, but ugh I was hoping for a different outcome. Thanks for stepping up! Valereee ( talk) 16:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi Bradv,
Thank you for the close of this RfC, but I believe it was mistaken on several grounds and I hope you will be willing to review it.
First, you say many of them cannot be improved
. This is the reason for the proposal and the significant support for it; it seems odd to use the reason for the proposal as justification against implementing it. I also don't believe this was presented as an argument against draftifying in the debate, which makes it an inappropriate argument to raise in the close.
Second, you say there is no clear route for them to get out of incubation and back into mainspace
. That isn't accurate; the proposal provided a clearly defined process with Any draft (whether in draftspace, userspace, or WikiProject space) can be returned to mainspace when it contains sources that plausibly meet
WP:GNG
.
Third, you say Furthermore, the policy states that incubation must not be used as a "backdoor to deletion", an argument that was not adequately refuted by the supporters of this particular proposal.
This argument was refuted by supporters on three grounds. First, editors who wish to preserve the articles for longer are empowered to move it to user space or project space. Second, editors who wish to preserve the content in mainspace are empowered to do so by moving the article back and converting it into a redirect. Third, the proposal includes the auto-delete period being extended from 6 months to 5 years.
Fourth, I believe
WP:NOTBURO applies;
WP:ATD-I says that moving articles to draft space should generally be done only for newly created articles (typically as part of new page review) or as the result of a deletion discussion
. The principle here appears to be that draftification shouldn't happen without discussion; while the letter says that the discussion has to be an AfD it would appear to be an an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policies
to disregard an RfC with far more participation than almost all AfD's because the discussion is in a different format. This is also supported by the discussion you linked; many of the !votes for option one, as well as the close (Instead of unilaterally draftifying an unsuitable-for-mainspace article that is not newly created, editors should instead nominate the article for deletion, e.g. via WP:PROD or WP:AFD.
), appear to have been focused on preventing unilateral draftification, rather than on limiting draftification to AfD.
I also believe that it may have been better for you to allow another editor to close the discussion on the grounds of
WP:INVOLVED; you have been involved in a previous dispute on the topic of whether draft space should be used in this manner with you taking the position Draftifying articles as an alternative to deletion should only be done for brand-new articles where the author is still available to work on it, or in cases where someone asks to put it in draftspace so they can fix it up to avoid deletion.
This argument could have been applied verbatim to this proposal as an argument against, and as such I think you should be participating, not closing.
BilledMammal (
talk) 16:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
It is inappropriate for articles that cannot be improved to be moved to draftspace.That isn't entirely true. It is only inappropriate for articles that we are know cannot be improved to be moved to draftspace - we move articles to draft space without a guarantee that they can be improved all the time. In this case, while we expect that most of these articles cannot be improved, we don't know which ones can and cannot be; as such, we are in compliance with the policy. Further, as I pointed out, this appears to be a novel argument and as the closer you shouldn't be making novel arguments in your close as it prevents editors who disagree with the argument from presenting a rebuttal to it.
If the proposal was to delete the articles, and it had reached a consensus to the level expected at AfD, I would agree.I'm not certain what the point is here - are you saying that if the proposal had been to delete the articles, but instead the discussion had gone the way it had with minimal support for deletion but considerable support for draftification, there would have been a consensus for draftification?
And on your final point, the statement that you quote is pretty much a direct quote from the policy.It is a more restrictive version of policy; you argue it should only be used when an editor is committed to working on it, while policy permits it for any new article and for any article where there is a consensus for draftification at AfD. This is also why making that !vote in the discussion wouldn't have been decisive; editors could have rebutted it by pointing to this second permitted use and WP:NOTBURO. Further, I don't believe that changes whether you were involved; you were a party to a prior dispute on this topic and as far as I can tell none of the exceptions to WP:INVOLVED apply here. BilledMammal ( talk) 16:38, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Recently created articles that have potential, but that do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the draft namespace ("draftified") for improvement, with the aim of eventually moving them back to the main namespace. Draftspace is for new articles that can be improved, it is not a purgatory for articles yet to be judged. That is not my opinion; it's what the policy says, and what was brought up by numerous participants in the discussion. Re paragraph 2, I'm saying if this was a deletion discussion, and it reached a consensus to delete, it would be appropriate to delete the articles even if it wasn't held at the conventional venue. And on your final point, I based my close on the consensus of the discussion, drawing in the concerns raised by the various participants there and evaluating them against our existing policies and conventions. I believe this is clear from my statement, but if you still disagree you are welcome to take to AN for review. – bradv 17:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Older articles should not be draftified without an AfD consensus, with 90 days a rule of thumb)
Re paragraph 2, I'm saying if this was a deletion discussion, and it reached a consensus to delete, it would be appropriate to delete the articles even if it wasn't held at the conventional venue.And if it reached a consensus to draftify? BilledMammal ( talk) 17:14, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Considering that discussions held at the village pump and attended by around 100 editors can alter what is permitted, if the RfC question had been Should the following biographical microstubs, which were mass-created by Lugnuts and cover non-medalling Olympians who competed between 1896 and 1912, be moved out of article space and should this RfC be permitted to draftify these articles?
(additions in bold) would that have altered the close?
BilledMammal (
talk) 23:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for vacating this decision. For the record I don’t think this is going to be an easy close for anyone (not least technically not an easy one to execute if it is passed!) and, though I disagreed with your close as an assessment of the consensus and P&Gs, I did not buy the argument that you were WP:Involved. FOARP ( talk) 03:59, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello Bradv, it is good to see that you have returned (even if the circumstances of your return were not so pleasant). I was wondering if you might have time to change the "ds alerts" button to read "ct alerts" over at superlinks after the recent rename? Thank you for creating that script; it is extremely useful! Best, House Blaster talk 17:08, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi, regarding your decline of a CSD, I think that page should be deleted under WP:U2. Although it is on a renamed user space, it was created after the user was renamed and isn't a redirect to their current talk page so my understanding is it should be deleted (and has been deleted once after I had tagged it a few days ago before the same user recreated, I'm not sure why they're doing that.) It's very likely I'm missing something so that's partly why I'm asking for clarification. Also do you think it makes sense to reach out to the user that had created to to see if they need some assistance? Thanks! Skynxnex ( talk) 18:14, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2023).
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Hi Bradv,
70.183.208.109 (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
filter log ·
WHOIS ·
RDNS ·
RBLs ·
http ·
block user ·
block log) is most likely block evasion of
2600:8807:a00:23::/64 (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
filter log ·
WHOIS ·
RBLs ·
block user ·
block log),
8.48.252.99 (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
filter log ·
WHOIS ·
RDNS ·
RBLs ·
http ·
block user ·
block log), and
209.124.214.173 (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
filter log ·
WHOIS ·
RDNS ·
RBLs ·
http ·
block user ·
block log). Thank you for blocking
70.183.208.109 as they have been
harassing me on my Talk. Notice 70.183.208.109 and 209.124.214.173 posted almost the same thing on my Talk. —
YoungForever
(talk) 23:37, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
user:Maram ahmari (who you blocked for 24 hours for deleting sourced content at Mecca) is doing it again. Given the lack of response, a full WP:NOTHERE block seems appropriate to me. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 20:04, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
Hello, Bradv,
This page shows up on lists of nonexistent editors that should be deleted (see this list) and I'm not the only editor who runs these types of queries. And I see that you have put full protection on the page. Can it still be deleted or a redirect put on it so that it doesn't appear on lists of pages that should be deleted? Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 23:40, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
My apologies, but I'm the naive fool that tried to reclose a certain RfC you may be trying hard to forget. I tried to acknowledge my debt to you, and realized very well my close might be reopened again, but now in that reopen request a number of people are saying we should go back to your close despite your withdrawing it. I just wrote a long paragraph about how we should take your close withdrawal at face value, and, that, honestly, the people who think they're supporting you by saying we shouldn't are not actually doing you any favors; but maybe I'm wrong, and I thought I should give you the chance to say something about it.
If your answer is something like: "I'd rather eat worms than participate one way or the other, and if no one ever mentioned it to me again, I could die a happy man," then that is a perfectly reasonable response, and if that is the case, then say that, or even just revert my edit here on your talk page, and I promise I won't bother you about it again. -- GRuban ( talk) 15:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
FYI since you issued a previous block of this user, who is now doing more of the same. diff1, diff2 Funcrunch ( talk) 02:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Re your question... Semi-protecting the page General relativity springs to mind . If they persist, I'll file a request. Cheers! - DVdm ( talk) 09:32, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
This account isn't just a spam account, but a LTA known as House of Yahweh and Piermark ( long-term abuse case page). Just thought I'd let you know. Also, most of their accounts have such long names, which is usually an easy way of telling which accounts are HoY socks. LilianaUwU ( talk / contribs) 23:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2023).
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That's twice today you've popped in with some much appreciated backup. Thanks for that. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 00:10, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
You recently deleted the draft page for Bruno Gouery based on copyright infringement. The text was virtually identical to the Bruno Gouery page at wikiake and wikitia. But this happened because those sites copied the text that I had written on wikipedia not the other way around. The article was resubmitted to move from the draft space to the main space in January or early February. By checking the wayback machine you can see that the wikiake page appeared in March 2023 while the text for the wikipedia page predates that. The wikitia page was created on 9 February 2023. At the bottom the wikitia article states "This article "Bruno Gouery" is from Wikipedia. The list of its authors can be seen in its historical. Articles taken from Draft Namespace on Wikipedia could be accessed on Wikipedia's Draft Namespace. "
Please restore the page and move it into the main space. Thank you. Uwhoff ( talk) 01:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi Brad! I wanted to follow up with you regarding a point you made at User talk:Theanonymoustypist, and as this doesn't relate exactly to that discussion, I figured we could spare that user the emails.
Leaving aside the specific draft we were discussing, you mentioned that the list article is full of redlinks. Because this is English Wikipedia, there is a WP:Systemic bias against topics not in the Anglosphere; thus, an article of a German state legislator is inherently less likely to exist than, say, an article on an American state legislator, even though they are both equally notable. Regards, Curbon7 ( talk) 04:50, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Why on earth do you barge in and just cut and AFD short?? Why not just respect Wikipedia procedure and let it's run its course. I had not even been running for an hour! T v x1 00:15, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
I created a Wikipedia page for an Indian Educational material publisher by the name of Oswaal Books which publish content for all schools from standard 1-12 and preparation material for major exams. Oswaal Books was established in 1984 as one of the oldest education provider in India. I even did citation of all major links supporting the submitted information.
May I know where I lacked as it was marked for deletion? Creator1998 ( talk) 02:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
This user has publicly declared that they have a conflict of interest regarding the Wikipedia article Oswaal Books." – bradv 02:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Hello Bradv,
The New Page Patrol team is sending you this impromptu message to inform you of a steeply rising backlog of articles needing review. If you have any extra time to spare, please consider reviewing one or two articles each day to help lower the backlog. You can start reviewing by visiting Special:NewPagesFeed. Thank you very much for your help.
Reminders:
Sent by Zippybonzo using MediaWiki message delivery at 06:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2023).
Hello User:Bradv, I'm hoping to obtain clarification from you as to why you placed a notability tag on No Mafia as the article as drafted contains four product reviews that meet the criteria specified in WP:RESTAURANTREVIEWS. Three are from The West Australian, and one is in the Sydney Morning Herald. Two of those reviews are from the very well-established food reviewer Rob Broadfield. Jack4576 ( talk) 02:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Ng12345678 says in his talk page that he is Ng1234567, i think you should change his block message to sockpuppetry. Notrealname1234 ( talk) 14:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Four years! |
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-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)