This page is for statements regarding the proposed decision, not discussion. Therefore, with the exception of arbitrators and clerks, all editors must create a section for their statement and comment only in their own section. |
This case is now closed and pages relating to it may no longer be watched
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Case clerk: Dreamy Jazz ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Barkeep49 ( Talk) & Primefac ( Talk) & SilkTork ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
What are arbitors' expectations of involved parties using this talk page? Should we as involved parties, in this stage, limit ourselves to an absolute minimum, or should we actively partake in discussion? Marcocapelle ( talk) 03:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Barkeep49 Thanks, that's good to know. I intend to do no more contributions (as I try to be mindful of bludgeon), unless I see something really important missing, or if an arbitrator asks me specifically to explain something. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 04:06, 18 August 2023 (UTC) PS: Oops, sorry, I'll set up my own section here. It's still a bit confusing when and where to have your own section. (I wrote something about this in my feedback for future cases). Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 04:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Robert McClenon may have a good point that XfD should be recognised as a Wikipedia:contentious topics area to which special restrictions should apply because they are so often disruptive. I gotta say that in the 15+ years I've been active on Wikipedia, I've never been in an ANI before, much less an ARC. And yet within 5 months of becoming active at CFD (February - June 2023), which has on the one hand been very interesting and at times a lot of fun, I also ended up in both an ANI and an ARC because of this Smallcat dispute. In the meantime, I also got into an unusual amount of tensions with other editors about deleting, merging, renaming or splitting categories or articles. I might have been called names and been insulted more times in these recent months at CfD, AfD, Requested Moves etc. than in all 15 years combined (but I might suffer from recentism bias because much of it has happened so recently). I should also acknowledge that it has tested my own communication skills to its limits. I deserve the warning that is being proposed, but I should have prevented that from being necessary in the first place. I understand why editors, myself included, can become so passionate about XfD, because the arguments may decide what is deleted and what is kept or renamed etc. and nobody wants someone else to "win" a discussion based on what they consider bad arguments. The frustration this creates is probably the reason why WP:CIVIL issues arise more easily in the XfD domain, and why behavioural policy and guidelines should be more strictly observed and enforced in places where such issues are more likely to arise. Good day, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I appreciate and second the gratitude @ RevelationDirect has expressed for the good work the Arbcom has done on this case. May I ask you what you mean with What frustrates me though, is not what was said about me in those places [the Workshop page, a User talk page, and a User draft evidence page] but that nothing was said about me on the formal Evidence page. I think at least a summary of BrownHairedGirl’s position there would have allowed for more holistic outcomes.? You are mentioned several times at the /Evidence page, but apparently not in connection to something you would have liked to have seen discussed? What would that have been? I hope that we as a whole, or I personally, have properly taken your role or perspective into account; for my part, I tried. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 17:29, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I see several participants saying/implying "BHG was right about
WP:SMALLCAT / other
WP:PG, but was uncivil in explaining it to others". It's not that simple. FoF 1 (currently supported by 10/11 Arbitrators) states that "There has been an ongoing desire, never reaching consensus, to apply a strict numerical threshold for SmallCat (jc37 evidence). (...) reasonable editors can reach differing conclusions about other elements of the guideline, including the potential for growth and whether categories "are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme."
"
In short:
And reasonable editors can disagree with that interpretation. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 12:55, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Barkeep49: I'm sure it varies by case based on member availability, but typically how long after the Workshop phase closes does the Proposed Decision phase begin? (Or is that hard to predict?) - RevelationDirect ( talk) 21:48, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
Going to ANI and ArbComm for the first time has been a bit bewildering, especially since I looked at several other cases and they seemed very different from this one. I appreciate the time of the Committee members and other editors, most of whom I’m interacting with for the first time.
I made no recommendation for any proposed remedies because I really had no idea what to do here. I was hopeful early on that some of the Barkeep49’s questions might lead to a more nuanced outcome but I defer to the Committee’s judgement here. I really wish there was some way to turn back the clock so I could return to collegiate editing with all the involved parties; maybe a Wikipedia Time-Turner can be developed.
During this case, there was a lot said about me on the Workshop page, on a User talk page, and on a User draft evidence page. What frustrates me though, is not what was said about me in those places but that nothing was said about me on the formal Evidence page. I think at least a summary of BrownHairedGirl’s position there would have allowed for more holistic outcomes.
While I came here because of civility concerns not the underlying content dispute, I’ve been thinking a lot of about WP:SMALLCAT lately. The 1st finding of fact, @ Marcocapelle:’s evidence and the discussion that @ Jc37: started at OC talk were all helpful. There are a lot of smaller sized categories that should be deleted because they don’t aid reader navigation but some of those don’t meet the technical requirements of WP:SMALLCAT. If I could do things over, I would not have !voted any differently, but in a couple of nominations I would have instead cited WP:NARROWCAT, WP:WTAF, WP:BUILDER, and WP:OC generally. I’ll work on being more precise going forward with citing essays and editing guidelines.
By number of edits and years of service, I’m senior to a number of people at this discussion; but by interests and breadth of editing experience, I’m pretty provincial. I’m especially appreciative of @ Barkeep49, Primefac, and SilkTork: for the "XfD Editors reminded" proposed remedy. While not named there, I definitely see myself in that and the need to ensure I stay aligned with the broader project.
I’m an imperfect editor and I appreciate the guidance on how to be better going forward! - RevelationDirect ( talk) 16:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
@ RevelationDirect: I'm no barkeep, but there's a timeline in the header right at the top of this page; it says "Proposed decision to be posted by 23 August 2023". The current arbcom's been pretty good about meeting its schedules. — Cryptic 22:49, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
To my recollection I've substantively edited WP:AE twice and made zero actions so far, so my interpretation doesn't matter much. But to me remedy 5 seems to say pretty unambiguously that Laurel Lodged can't add or remove category pages, not categories to or from other pages, what with the "moving, and renaming" part coming right after. Please make it explicit, especially if you don't end up banning outright. — Cryptic 04:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Re the recent arb replies in MJL's section (Aside: gorram, this format is awkward. I understand why you don't want the parties to keep on fighting on the talk page all the way through a case, but is it really, really necessary for nonparties?). If you really want uninvolved people to submit evidence, give more feedback on it. I've submitted evidence to a fair number of arbitration cases, and workshop proposals to a few; the only feedback I've gotten is that sometimes the arbs cite it in the final decision, and sometimes the parties or other nonparties holler at me in the workshop or their own evidence.
I can't imagine being a party and having no idea which evidence the arbs are taking seriously and needs to be rebutted, and which would just be a waste of my very, very limited word- and diff-count. — Cryptic 02:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Why is there no finding of fact on the SMALLCAT-defying revenge nominations of my work by Oculi and Laurel Lodged ? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 23:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
the single most compelling diff - one so compelling it was largely (but not completely) responsible for us re-opening the evidence phase, was not mentioned or linked to despite the fact that it would have shown this targeting.
it would have shown this targeting. It showed personal insult, but it not show the targeting of categories created by me, which was my main concern.
in this case she alleges others are engaged in misconduct to subvert SMALLCAT. Absolutely true: I did allege that, and I still allege that. The evidence is at User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft evidence in SmallCat case; the simplest, starkest example is at CFD : Irish astrophysicists. Why do some people seem to be unconcerned by that misconduct, but regard it as unacceptable to note and challenge the misconduct? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 02:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Barkeep49: In your comment on remedy 1, you can avoid some possible confusion by adding a couple of quotation marks. I believe you mean to refer to BHG's "use of 'gaslighting'" (meaning that she overuses the word as an accusation against others), rather than her "use of gaslighting" (which could be read to mean that she engages in the technique herself). Newyorkbrad ( talk) 00:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I don't perceive a need to discuss "constitutional" issues relating to the UCOC in this case. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 22:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I said this in a different case that the UCoC was called upon, but I disagree with any principle, finding of fact, or remedy in any case being based upon the UCoC. My reading of the current wording of WP:CONEXCEPT suggests that while the Foundation has the power to themselves enforce the UCoC, through office actions and similar, they don't have the authority to grant local admins the power to enforce it or otherwise require it be treated as policy on enwiki. Thus, if ARBCOM wishes to rely on it in their cases, or if they believe admins should rely on it generally, I strongly encourage them to open an RfC as an enabling act for it.
Of course, as ARBCOM also exists under CONEXCEPT they may choose to base their decisions on anything they like - WP:PAG's, the UCoC, or even one of the Constitutions of the Soviet Union, but I don't think such a decision would be productive nor would it have impact on how the UCoC applies outside of ARBCOM. BilledMammal ( talk) 01:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Wugapodes, I fully agree that would be a more productive use of WMF funds than a lot of things that the WMF spends money on. BilledMammal ( talk) 01:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I really like this remedy and congratulate whomever drafted it, particularly the second sentence. BilledMammal ( talk) 01:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
(Stand-alone aside) - To the arbs, and specifically whomever drafted this: Wow. - jc37 03:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Per comments about #9, that was a big part of why WP:OC was created. At the time the same things were being repeatedly re-argued. And certain patterns and types of things were emerging. And kudos to the arbs for really seeming to have a pretty good grasp of the current and past situational environment at cfd, and how that tends to work. - jc37 03:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Per items about LL - As I had noted, I wasn't looking at the evidence presented, and am really surprised to hear that was going on. It seems that by personally, generally, selectively, avoiding certain discussions on certain topics that BHG contributed to, I missed out on all of that. I guess the comment I did see, did turn out to be an indicator of something more problematic. - jc37 03:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Per a "broadly construed" category topic ban. (For the drafters, and whomever else) - If you would like to remove some ambiguity, I would suggest making clear about the dual nature of categories: that they are both a page, as well as a technical feature which displays groupings of pages. So something like:
I's a bit wordy, but I think it's less ambiguous. - jc37 09:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I find remedy 5 wanting in clarity. What does "directly" mean (and not mean)? Is it meant to limit it to editing [[Category:...]]
directly and exclude categories inserted through transclusion? If you're under this topic ban, are you allowed to, say, create a page with [[Category:...]]
in its source? Or are "adding" and "removing" meant to refer to creation and deletion of category pages themselves?
Nardog (
talk) 03:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
[[Category:...]]
is the intended target of the remedy. We didn't consider the "new article" case. Not sure if we want to chase that down the way.
Izno (
talk) 03:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
In principle 2, change "this is done in repeatedly" to "this is done repeatedly"; in 3, "where it preferable" to "where it is preferable"; in 9, the second occurrence of "Universal Code of Conduct" to "UCoC" (as in the rest of the statement). Nardog ( talk) 15:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Am I being anal, or does the second comma in the sentence The August 16, 2021, community restriction is rescinded
in remedy 3 throw everyone off? I couldn't find the relevant MoS but pretty sure we omit the closing parenthetical comma when it's part of a noun phrase (another solution is to just use the DMY format, which also happens to be the MW default).
Nardog (
talk) 16:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
A comma follows the year unless other punctuation obviates it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 16:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
If a full month-day-year date is used, then a comma is sometimes considered necessary both before and after the year {the May 27, 2016, ceremonies}. But this construction is awkward because the adjective (which is forward looking) contains two commas (which are backward looking); the construction is therefore best avoided {commencement ceremonies on May 27, 2016}.(See Garner quoted here for a more descriptive account.) So my recommendation would be to either switch to DMY or avoid this construction altogether. Nardog ( talk) 17:12, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Barkeep49 and Dreamy Jazz: This comment has not been moved but simply been removed. Nardog ( talk) 16:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
FoF 3 should have DanCherek for DanCharek.
FoF 5 maybe should have SmallCat for SmallCats in both instances. FoF 1 should probably similarly be titled SmallCat rather than Smallcat.
Really grateful to see Principle 6 and especially Principle 3. Thank you for that. Folly Mox ( talk) 05:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
It would perhaps be good to see a FoF and a Principle related to conduct during the arbitration case. In particular, the apologies drama, the word limit drama, and the 'gamesmanship' of posting significant updates immediately before the end of phases (leaving arbs an unpalatable choice between an extension or not letting people respond).
The case management rules are there for a reason and participants are expected to conduct themselves in a way that facilitates arbs' understanding of the case and is conducive to an effective resolution. 94.11.59.33 ( talk) 07:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
My first thought on reading principle 6 is that it omits mention of the length of comments - a two 500-word additions to a discussion can be as problematic as a dozen smaller ones. 09:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Like the IP above me, I am slightly surprised at the lack of a finding regarding conduct during the case. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Thirdly, I agree with Izno about the problem with BHG not being CFD specifically - in additions to the whole Portals issue, evidence was presented regarding her conduct regarding RM, BRFA, ANI, DRV, and the Signpost (at least). Per other evidence, when she is civil, engages with other editors as equals and with decorum she is a valuable editor, including at CFD so I'm not convinced a topic ban from CFD is appropriate (although one for SmallCat specifically may be justified). If she isn't banned completely, or if such a ban is successfully appealed, I think the conduct restriction will (hopefully) do most of the required heavy lifting required. A remedy that allows for her to be banned from specific discussions and/or specific topics for 3-12 months (with appeal only at AE) could also be helpful. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Regarding BHG's bludgeoning, perhaps restricting her to a maximum of 500 words in any discussion that doesn't by default have a longer word limit (except on her own talk page?) with uninvolved administrators being allowed to grant extensions of up to 500 words on explicit request. Sorry I didn't think of this during the workshop phase. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Regarding the suggested category ban for LL, I think it's worth clarifying which of the following actions are explicitly allowed or not allowed:
[[Category:...]]
markup, or indirectly via Visual editor or a tool e.g. HotCat or AWB)To avoid issues regarding enforcement in future, perhaps it would be worth (after the conclusion of this case) amending the standard provision to include language along the lines of "Except where noted in a specific remedy or additional enforcement provision" (or some variation that explicitly allows there may not be such)? Thryduulf ( talk) 00:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I do have to take issue with most of what Robert McClenon says - this is not a simple case of BHG was right but uncivil. There is no single clearly right answer regarding SMALLCAT, and she was wrong about a lot regarding portals (where Robert's behaviour was on a par with BHG's much of the time, and I sincerely regret not posting more evidence of that in that case). I strongly urge everyone to read and take to heart Barkeep's comment on remedy 1, especially More often one of the following outcomes happened: BHG got her way on the merits, BHG got her way because the other person gave up trying to keep up with all of BHG's replies and points, BHG got her way because the other person gave up because they grew tired of dealing with her incivility, or BHG didn't get her way because she was the only person (or one of a very small group) who thought something which caused her to work overtime to try and convince everyone else they were wrong.
the outcome of a given situation being BHG's favoured outcome is not a reliable indicator that this was the correct outcome on the merits.
Thryduulf (
talk) 13:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
There's several references to a "Bridget" edit summary. To help those reading along, could you turn those into links to the diff? RoySmith (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I believe that BHG's community-imposed editing restriction could have worked, if only it had been enforced. I (and others) share responsible for this failure. Such a restriction (such as proposed remedy 3) could still work. But perhaps we would have more confidence in such a remedy provided some admin(s) were to make a public commitment to conscientiously enforce it. I would be willing to do this. Paul August ☎ 15:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Honestly, good stuff, I would also suggest additional FoFs w.r.t. conduct during and preceding a case. I also think proposed remedy 2.3.3 BrownHairedGirl conduct restriction
is moot, as it has been proven to be insufficient - tinkering the parameters do not change the fundamental nature of the issue at hand. We have already established with FoF 2.2.4 that it is an ineffective solution.
qedk (
t 愛
c) 15:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Some of the Arbitrator's comments in opposition are very hard to understand. The UCoC is policy on the English Wikipedia because it is part of the English Wikipedia:Terms of Use, an English Wikipedia policy with legal considerations, as set down in English Wikipedia:List of policies. The only way to not be bound by the UCoC as an editor or administrator or arbitrator on this website is to stop (or never begin) writing anything on this website, nor contributing on this website, at all. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 19:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm incredibly glad to see my evidence was in some ways helpful for this committee in making their decisions in regards to the proposed Findings of Fact. Going into this case, I was incredibly worried that this was going to lead to an outcome where one party's conduct was not sufficiently examined, but that didn't happen here.
Regardless of the final outcome for the remaining parties, I am incredibly grateful for the excellent work done here by Arbcom and the other clerks. This was not an easy case to manage. –
MJL
‐Talk‐
☖ 20:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Regarding this comment's suggestion of an editing restriction that limits contributions to articles only: without the ability to engage in content-related discussions, editors cannot be a full participant in the writing process. This significantly hampers collaboration among interested parties. I have difficulty envisioning scenarios where this would be workable for all editors involved. isaacl ( talk) 20:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Regarding this proposed remedy: note the difficulties in collaboration will be borne by all involved editors, as they will have to navigate the restrictions in order to work productively with the restricted editor. This may include having to copy comments from one permitted venue to another (WikiProjects typically hold discussions on their associated talk pages), or moving discussion to atypical venues to accommodate the restricted editor. I appreciate the proposal opening a larger set of available venues, but I still feel it imposes a significant burden on the community to manage. isaacl ( talk) 21:17, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Wish there were a better solution to this. She doesn't seem amenable to working something out anyway, or to changing anything.
Looks like LL realized that [2] was the final nail in the coffin and showed true colors [3] [4] as an exit statement. I'd like to see a stronger and specific wording about bias harassment in 2) Decorum or a separate Principle about it because I have really never seen something so shocking as "brace yourself Bridget" on Wikipedia, even among all the trolls and abusers who are not even regular editors. That's beyond the pale.
—DIYeditor ( talk) 22:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Banedon not sure what your level of English knowledge is so I will be blunt and explain in detail about "brace yourself Bridget" - bearing in mind I was not familiar with this phrase before this case myself. "Brace yourself" is what you say to someone when there is going to be an violent accident (if literal) or an shocking surprise (if figurative). "Bridget" is a stereotypical Irish female name. Apparently this phrase is some sort of running cultural joke in Ireland (self-deprecating I guess?) about marital sex. Basically, from my understanding, this clearly means "prepare yourself, you are about to get fucked, and it might be rough or hurt." LL has said other offensive things but this is so far over the line, in that it seemed to be directed at another editor, that a site ban is a minimum response to it. This is far beyond saying something off color or expressing a disruptive opinion (which LL has also done). —DIYeditor ( talk) 05:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
RE: BHG CBAN-- Sadly needed and overdue. The Community gave every opportunity.
RE:LL CBAN-- The sooner the better.
RE: Both-- Incredibly toxic. Their behavior dragged down the entire project. The Community needs to act sooner and more strongly in ejecting toxic individuals. -- Deepfriedokra ( talk) 23:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Clerk note: Moved from a different section to enforce sectioned discussion. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 16:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Watching from a distance, I think ArbCom handled the case well, and the PD is a good one. As for various complex sanctions that are being considered as alternatives to site bans, don't. (As I remember being said by others in previous cases, once we get to where a bunch of restrictions are all necessary, it's really better to just ban.) -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Despite having been on the receiving end of BHG's incivility, if I were an Arb and not recused, I'd likely still vote for "conduct restriction" over a total ban. N-th chance, arguably, but... well, I guess there is still WP:OFFER to consider in a year, plus, there are other wiki projects. Commons (where there are many messy categories) or such can surely benefit from her activity, particularly if she takes lessons from here to heart, finally, and uses her time at Commons wisely to build a case for the future OFFER here. Bottom line, we would all surely like to see a reformed editor rather than see them gone. Whether this is possible, of course... time will tell. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
First, I will restate (since restating this once is not bludgeoning) that I think that ArbCom failed to address an underlying issue, which is that deletion debates should be a contentious topic because some editors are consistently uncivil and disruptive in deletion discussions. There will be another case involving conduct in deletion in one to two years. This was the third in the past six years. The Portals case was the first, since it was really about deletion of portals. There will be another case sometime.
Second, I would like to express strong support for principle 3, "Being right isn't enough". BrownHairedGirl was technically right in all of the arguments about small categories, but was uncivil and unpleasant, which is one reason why other editors were not paying attention to her. This was also true in most of the Portal deletion discussions. She was right about what the Portal guideline said (until it was discovered that it was not a guideline). She was right about which portals needed deleting, but would have been more likely to make a case to the community if she had focused on reasoned argument rather than insulting another editor. She should not have said that another editor was lying, even if they were making incorrect statements of fact. The principle needs to be given a shortcut to make it easier to cite in the future.
Third, this was a very unpleasant case, although all arbitration cases are unpleasant because bad behavior is unpleasant. Maybe the unpleasantness had the side benefit that it made it obvious what the remedies had to be, so that the case is being resolved more quickly than usual.
Fourth, I am sad to see BHG sent off, but I agree that she left ArbCom no choice. Robert McClenon ( talk) 04:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Robert McClenon ( talk) 06:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
I am not sad to see BHG go. Her conduct has been unbecoming for years. No matter how much good work she has done, she has seriously harmed the encyclopedia with her argumentative nature. I wish this had happened back in October. Piotrus' comments above make me shudder for where BHG will land next, and the problems they will have keeping her behavior in check. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I feel pity that she could not see that her conduct is the issue, regardless of her belief in being right about SmallCat. I hope she takes the time to get right with herself and the world. I fear she won't and will only use this as fuel to increase her animosity and will funnel it elsewhere. Banning was the right decision; she left us no other option. -
UtherSRG
(talk) 11:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm not a party to this case but almost certainly would have been a party in the Portals case had I been active at the time, and we're all aware of the similarities between the two so I've been watching this one with interest. First, I think it's clear that the committee were right to accept this case. While BHG's behaviour was fairly well known, there's a strong chance LL's conduct would not have come to light any time soon without it.
In response to @ Barkeep49's comments about how useful it is to have input from non-parties, perhaps I could have contributed more and I apologise for not doing so; I'll keep an eye on future cases to see where I can add an "outside view" where appropriate. However I don't think I would have uncovered any further evidence or provided any additional insight that would have significantly changed the outcome of this case.
While I'm apologising, I recognise that I somewhat jumped the gun in by suggesting a proposed remedy within my preliminary statement, so I apologise for that too. Although it looks like ArbCom has reached the same conclusion, it was absolutely right that the case proceeded methodically, thoroughly, fairly and without any bias or preconceptions so that we can all have confidence in the proposed decisions.
On the PD itself, although site bans now have enough votes to pass for both BHG and LL, I understand that the alternative remedies are still being considered as potential fall-back positions that might be used in the event of a successful appeal. On that note I echo some of committee's comments (and those from other commenters) about the need to keep the remedies simple. Like @ Izno, I think @ Thryduulf's 500-word limit suggestion is a good one but I'm not sure how practical it would be to enforce. Waggers TALK 11:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I was one of the drafters of the Portals decision. Until you've served on the Arbitration Committee and have drafted one of these PDs, it's difficult to grok how intense and time-consuming it is. Well done to the drafters in this case.
I did not foresee how the Portals case would play out when I started reading the evidence there, almost four years ago now. It was not what I thought it was going into the draft. The evidence was clear, however, and I'm sorrier than I can say that BHG's continued bad behavior has led to the results here.
I think we all have problems to some degree seeing ourselves with clarity. We believe ourselves to be better or worse or more proficient or less able than we really are. There are those, however, who will always see themselves as the victim, the underdog who simply must bite back because they felt someone bit them first. I have a couple of these folks in my family, and one of them needs that grievance mentality in order to... survive, I'd say. Maybe BHG is that way, maybe not. In the end, for this community, there's too much energy being used to feed her sense of persecution, and it's time for us to show her the door. I hope she finds peace and contentment in her future endeavors. Katie talk 16:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I think this ultimately is the right decision. Countless editors have been driven off Wikipedia by this person over a period of years, unfortunately somewhat enabled by a coterie of supporters with varying degrees of social and structural power. We focus so much on how an individual contributes but forget how many would contribute if not for them - and I am not just thinking of this individual or this case, but plenty of others I've seen in my 18 years here. Back in the days when we had a very vibrant and active community this would have been better handled by the community itself, but in the present it's been necessary for ArbCom to stand up, and I appreciate the clarity, transparency and courage of the arbitrators demonstrated in this case. Orderinchaos 03:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
This page is for statements regarding the proposed decision, not discussion. Therefore, with the exception of arbitrators and clerks, all editors must create a section for their statement and comment only in their own section. |
This case is now closed and pages relating to it may no longer be watched
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Case clerk: Dreamy Jazz ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Barkeep49 ( Talk) & Primefac ( Talk) & SilkTork ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
What are arbitors' expectations of involved parties using this talk page? Should we as involved parties, in this stage, limit ourselves to an absolute minimum, or should we actively partake in discussion? Marcocapelle ( talk) 03:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Barkeep49 Thanks, that's good to know. I intend to do no more contributions (as I try to be mindful of bludgeon), unless I see something really important missing, or if an arbitrator asks me specifically to explain something. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 04:06, 18 August 2023 (UTC) PS: Oops, sorry, I'll set up my own section here. It's still a bit confusing when and where to have your own section. (I wrote something about this in my feedback for future cases). Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 04:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Robert McClenon may have a good point that XfD should be recognised as a Wikipedia:contentious topics area to which special restrictions should apply because they are so often disruptive. I gotta say that in the 15+ years I've been active on Wikipedia, I've never been in an ANI before, much less an ARC. And yet within 5 months of becoming active at CFD (February - June 2023), which has on the one hand been very interesting and at times a lot of fun, I also ended up in both an ANI and an ARC because of this Smallcat dispute. In the meantime, I also got into an unusual amount of tensions with other editors about deleting, merging, renaming or splitting categories or articles. I might have been called names and been insulted more times in these recent months at CfD, AfD, Requested Moves etc. than in all 15 years combined (but I might suffer from recentism bias because much of it has happened so recently). I should also acknowledge that it has tested my own communication skills to its limits. I deserve the warning that is being proposed, but I should have prevented that from being necessary in the first place. I understand why editors, myself included, can become so passionate about XfD, because the arguments may decide what is deleted and what is kept or renamed etc. and nobody wants someone else to "win" a discussion based on what they consider bad arguments. The frustration this creates is probably the reason why WP:CIVIL issues arise more easily in the XfD domain, and why behavioural policy and guidelines should be more strictly observed and enforced in places where such issues are more likely to arise. Good day, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I appreciate and second the gratitude @ RevelationDirect has expressed for the good work the Arbcom has done on this case. May I ask you what you mean with What frustrates me though, is not what was said about me in those places [the Workshop page, a User talk page, and a User draft evidence page] but that nothing was said about me on the formal Evidence page. I think at least a summary of BrownHairedGirl’s position there would have allowed for more holistic outcomes.? You are mentioned several times at the /Evidence page, but apparently not in connection to something you would have liked to have seen discussed? What would that have been? I hope that we as a whole, or I personally, have properly taken your role or perspective into account; for my part, I tried. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 17:29, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I see several participants saying/implying "BHG was right about
WP:SMALLCAT / other
WP:PG, but was uncivil in explaining it to others". It's not that simple. FoF 1 (currently supported by 10/11 Arbitrators) states that "There has been an ongoing desire, never reaching consensus, to apply a strict numerical threshold for SmallCat (jc37 evidence). (...) reasonable editors can reach differing conclusions about other elements of the guideline, including the potential for growth and whether categories "are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme."
"
In short:
And reasonable editors can disagree with that interpretation. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 12:55, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Barkeep49: I'm sure it varies by case based on member availability, but typically how long after the Workshop phase closes does the Proposed Decision phase begin? (Or is that hard to predict?) - RevelationDirect ( talk) 21:48, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
Going to ANI and ArbComm for the first time has been a bit bewildering, especially since I looked at several other cases and they seemed very different from this one. I appreciate the time of the Committee members and other editors, most of whom I’m interacting with for the first time.
I made no recommendation for any proposed remedies because I really had no idea what to do here. I was hopeful early on that some of the Barkeep49’s questions might lead to a more nuanced outcome but I defer to the Committee’s judgement here. I really wish there was some way to turn back the clock so I could return to collegiate editing with all the involved parties; maybe a Wikipedia Time-Turner can be developed.
During this case, there was a lot said about me on the Workshop page, on a User talk page, and on a User draft evidence page. What frustrates me though, is not what was said about me in those places but that nothing was said about me on the formal Evidence page. I think at least a summary of BrownHairedGirl’s position there would have allowed for more holistic outcomes.
While I came here because of civility concerns not the underlying content dispute, I’ve been thinking a lot of about WP:SMALLCAT lately. The 1st finding of fact, @ Marcocapelle:’s evidence and the discussion that @ Jc37: started at OC talk were all helpful. There are a lot of smaller sized categories that should be deleted because they don’t aid reader navigation but some of those don’t meet the technical requirements of WP:SMALLCAT. If I could do things over, I would not have !voted any differently, but in a couple of nominations I would have instead cited WP:NARROWCAT, WP:WTAF, WP:BUILDER, and WP:OC generally. I’ll work on being more precise going forward with citing essays and editing guidelines.
By number of edits and years of service, I’m senior to a number of people at this discussion; but by interests and breadth of editing experience, I’m pretty provincial. I’m especially appreciative of @ Barkeep49, Primefac, and SilkTork: for the "XfD Editors reminded" proposed remedy. While not named there, I definitely see myself in that and the need to ensure I stay aligned with the broader project.
I’m an imperfect editor and I appreciate the guidance on how to be better going forward! - RevelationDirect ( talk) 16:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
@ RevelationDirect: I'm no barkeep, but there's a timeline in the header right at the top of this page; it says "Proposed decision to be posted by 23 August 2023". The current arbcom's been pretty good about meeting its schedules. — Cryptic 22:49, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
To my recollection I've substantively edited WP:AE twice and made zero actions so far, so my interpretation doesn't matter much. But to me remedy 5 seems to say pretty unambiguously that Laurel Lodged can't add or remove category pages, not categories to or from other pages, what with the "moving, and renaming" part coming right after. Please make it explicit, especially if you don't end up banning outright. — Cryptic 04:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Re the recent arb replies in MJL's section (Aside: gorram, this format is awkward. I understand why you don't want the parties to keep on fighting on the talk page all the way through a case, but is it really, really necessary for nonparties?). If you really want uninvolved people to submit evidence, give more feedback on it. I've submitted evidence to a fair number of arbitration cases, and workshop proposals to a few; the only feedback I've gotten is that sometimes the arbs cite it in the final decision, and sometimes the parties or other nonparties holler at me in the workshop or their own evidence.
I can't imagine being a party and having no idea which evidence the arbs are taking seriously and needs to be rebutted, and which would just be a waste of my very, very limited word- and diff-count. — Cryptic 02:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Why is there no finding of fact on the SMALLCAT-defying revenge nominations of my work by Oculi and Laurel Lodged ? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 23:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
the single most compelling diff - one so compelling it was largely (but not completely) responsible for us re-opening the evidence phase, was not mentioned or linked to despite the fact that it would have shown this targeting.
it would have shown this targeting. It showed personal insult, but it not show the targeting of categories created by me, which was my main concern.
in this case she alleges others are engaged in misconduct to subvert SMALLCAT. Absolutely true: I did allege that, and I still allege that. The evidence is at User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft evidence in SmallCat case; the simplest, starkest example is at CFD : Irish astrophysicists. Why do some people seem to be unconcerned by that misconduct, but regard it as unacceptable to note and challenge the misconduct? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 02:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Barkeep49: In your comment on remedy 1, you can avoid some possible confusion by adding a couple of quotation marks. I believe you mean to refer to BHG's "use of 'gaslighting'" (meaning that she overuses the word as an accusation against others), rather than her "use of gaslighting" (which could be read to mean that she engages in the technique herself). Newyorkbrad ( talk) 00:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I don't perceive a need to discuss "constitutional" issues relating to the UCOC in this case. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 22:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I said this in a different case that the UCoC was called upon, but I disagree with any principle, finding of fact, or remedy in any case being based upon the UCoC. My reading of the current wording of WP:CONEXCEPT suggests that while the Foundation has the power to themselves enforce the UCoC, through office actions and similar, they don't have the authority to grant local admins the power to enforce it or otherwise require it be treated as policy on enwiki. Thus, if ARBCOM wishes to rely on it in their cases, or if they believe admins should rely on it generally, I strongly encourage them to open an RfC as an enabling act for it.
Of course, as ARBCOM also exists under CONEXCEPT they may choose to base their decisions on anything they like - WP:PAG's, the UCoC, or even one of the Constitutions of the Soviet Union, but I don't think such a decision would be productive nor would it have impact on how the UCoC applies outside of ARBCOM. BilledMammal ( talk) 01:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Wugapodes, I fully agree that would be a more productive use of WMF funds than a lot of things that the WMF spends money on. BilledMammal ( talk) 01:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I really like this remedy and congratulate whomever drafted it, particularly the second sentence. BilledMammal ( talk) 01:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
(Stand-alone aside) - To the arbs, and specifically whomever drafted this: Wow. - jc37 03:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Per comments about #9, that was a big part of why WP:OC was created. At the time the same things were being repeatedly re-argued. And certain patterns and types of things were emerging. And kudos to the arbs for really seeming to have a pretty good grasp of the current and past situational environment at cfd, and how that tends to work. - jc37 03:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Per items about LL - As I had noted, I wasn't looking at the evidence presented, and am really surprised to hear that was going on. It seems that by personally, generally, selectively, avoiding certain discussions on certain topics that BHG contributed to, I missed out on all of that. I guess the comment I did see, did turn out to be an indicator of something more problematic. - jc37 03:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Per a "broadly construed" category topic ban. (For the drafters, and whomever else) - If you would like to remove some ambiguity, I would suggest making clear about the dual nature of categories: that they are both a page, as well as a technical feature which displays groupings of pages. So something like:
I's a bit wordy, but I think it's less ambiguous. - jc37 09:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I find remedy 5 wanting in clarity. What does "directly" mean (and not mean)? Is it meant to limit it to editing [[Category:...]]
directly and exclude categories inserted through transclusion? If you're under this topic ban, are you allowed to, say, create a page with [[Category:...]]
in its source? Or are "adding" and "removing" meant to refer to creation and deletion of category pages themselves?
Nardog (
talk) 03:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
[[Category:...]]
is the intended target of the remedy. We didn't consider the "new article" case. Not sure if we want to chase that down the way.
Izno (
talk) 03:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
In principle 2, change "this is done in repeatedly" to "this is done repeatedly"; in 3, "where it preferable" to "where it is preferable"; in 9, the second occurrence of "Universal Code of Conduct" to "UCoC" (as in the rest of the statement). Nardog ( talk) 15:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Am I being anal, or does the second comma in the sentence The August 16, 2021, community restriction is rescinded
in remedy 3 throw everyone off? I couldn't find the relevant MoS but pretty sure we omit the closing parenthetical comma when it's part of a noun phrase (another solution is to just use the DMY format, which also happens to be the MW default).
Nardog (
talk) 16:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
A comma follows the year unless other punctuation obviates it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 16:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
If a full month-day-year date is used, then a comma is sometimes considered necessary both before and after the year {the May 27, 2016, ceremonies}. But this construction is awkward because the adjective (which is forward looking) contains two commas (which are backward looking); the construction is therefore best avoided {commencement ceremonies on May 27, 2016}.(See Garner quoted here for a more descriptive account.) So my recommendation would be to either switch to DMY or avoid this construction altogether. Nardog ( talk) 17:12, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Barkeep49 and Dreamy Jazz: This comment has not been moved but simply been removed. Nardog ( talk) 16:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
FoF 3 should have DanCherek for DanCharek.
FoF 5 maybe should have SmallCat for SmallCats in both instances. FoF 1 should probably similarly be titled SmallCat rather than Smallcat.
Really grateful to see Principle 6 and especially Principle 3. Thank you for that. Folly Mox ( talk) 05:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
It would perhaps be good to see a FoF and a Principle related to conduct during the arbitration case. In particular, the apologies drama, the word limit drama, and the 'gamesmanship' of posting significant updates immediately before the end of phases (leaving arbs an unpalatable choice between an extension or not letting people respond).
The case management rules are there for a reason and participants are expected to conduct themselves in a way that facilitates arbs' understanding of the case and is conducive to an effective resolution. 94.11.59.33 ( talk) 07:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
My first thought on reading principle 6 is that it omits mention of the length of comments - a two 500-word additions to a discussion can be as problematic as a dozen smaller ones. 09:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Like the IP above me, I am slightly surprised at the lack of a finding regarding conduct during the case. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Thirdly, I agree with Izno about the problem with BHG not being CFD specifically - in additions to the whole Portals issue, evidence was presented regarding her conduct regarding RM, BRFA, ANI, DRV, and the Signpost (at least). Per other evidence, when she is civil, engages with other editors as equals and with decorum she is a valuable editor, including at CFD so I'm not convinced a topic ban from CFD is appropriate (although one for SmallCat specifically may be justified). If she isn't banned completely, or if such a ban is successfully appealed, I think the conduct restriction will (hopefully) do most of the required heavy lifting required. A remedy that allows for her to be banned from specific discussions and/or specific topics for 3-12 months (with appeal only at AE) could also be helpful. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Regarding BHG's bludgeoning, perhaps restricting her to a maximum of 500 words in any discussion that doesn't by default have a longer word limit (except on her own talk page?) with uninvolved administrators being allowed to grant extensions of up to 500 words on explicit request. Sorry I didn't think of this during the workshop phase. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Regarding the suggested category ban for LL, I think it's worth clarifying which of the following actions are explicitly allowed or not allowed:
[[Category:...]]
markup, or indirectly via Visual editor or a tool e.g. HotCat or AWB)To avoid issues regarding enforcement in future, perhaps it would be worth (after the conclusion of this case) amending the standard provision to include language along the lines of "Except where noted in a specific remedy or additional enforcement provision" (or some variation that explicitly allows there may not be such)? Thryduulf ( talk) 00:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I do have to take issue with most of what Robert McClenon says - this is not a simple case of BHG was right but uncivil. There is no single clearly right answer regarding SMALLCAT, and she was wrong about a lot regarding portals (where Robert's behaviour was on a par with BHG's much of the time, and I sincerely regret not posting more evidence of that in that case). I strongly urge everyone to read and take to heart Barkeep's comment on remedy 1, especially More often one of the following outcomes happened: BHG got her way on the merits, BHG got her way because the other person gave up trying to keep up with all of BHG's replies and points, BHG got her way because the other person gave up because they grew tired of dealing with her incivility, or BHG didn't get her way because she was the only person (or one of a very small group) who thought something which caused her to work overtime to try and convince everyone else they were wrong.
the outcome of a given situation being BHG's favoured outcome is not a reliable indicator that this was the correct outcome on the merits.
Thryduulf (
talk) 13:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
There's several references to a "Bridget" edit summary. To help those reading along, could you turn those into links to the diff? RoySmith (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I believe that BHG's community-imposed editing restriction could have worked, if only it had been enforced. I (and others) share responsible for this failure. Such a restriction (such as proposed remedy 3) could still work. But perhaps we would have more confidence in such a remedy provided some admin(s) were to make a public commitment to conscientiously enforce it. I would be willing to do this. Paul August ☎ 15:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Honestly, good stuff, I would also suggest additional FoFs w.r.t. conduct during and preceding a case. I also think proposed remedy 2.3.3 BrownHairedGirl conduct restriction
is moot, as it has been proven to be insufficient - tinkering the parameters do not change the fundamental nature of the issue at hand. We have already established with FoF 2.2.4 that it is an ineffective solution.
qedk (
t 愛
c) 15:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Some of the Arbitrator's comments in opposition are very hard to understand. The UCoC is policy on the English Wikipedia because it is part of the English Wikipedia:Terms of Use, an English Wikipedia policy with legal considerations, as set down in English Wikipedia:List of policies. The only way to not be bound by the UCoC as an editor or administrator or arbitrator on this website is to stop (or never begin) writing anything on this website, nor contributing on this website, at all. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 19:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm incredibly glad to see my evidence was in some ways helpful for this committee in making their decisions in regards to the proposed Findings of Fact. Going into this case, I was incredibly worried that this was going to lead to an outcome where one party's conduct was not sufficiently examined, but that didn't happen here.
Regardless of the final outcome for the remaining parties, I am incredibly grateful for the excellent work done here by Arbcom and the other clerks. This was not an easy case to manage. –
MJL
‐Talk‐
☖ 20:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Regarding this comment's suggestion of an editing restriction that limits contributions to articles only: without the ability to engage in content-related discussions, editors cannot be a full participant in the writing process. This significantly hampers collaboration among interested parties. I have difficulty envisioning scenarios where this would be workable for all editors involved. isaacl ( talk) 20:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Regarding this proposed remedy: note the difficulties in collaboration will be borne by all involved editors, as they will have to navigate the restrictions in order to work productively with the restricted editor. This may include having to copy comments from one permitted venue to another (WikiProjects typically hold discussions on their associated talk pages), or moving discussion to atypical venues to accommodate the restricted editor. I appreciate the proposal opening a larger set of available venues, but I still feel it imposes a significant burden on the community to manage. isaacl ( talk) 21:17, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Wish there were a better solution to this. She doesn't seem amenable to working something out anyway, or to changing anything.
Looks like LL realized that [2] was the final nail in the coffin and showed true colors [3] [4] as an exit statement. I'd like to see a stronger and specific wording about bias harassment in 2) Decorum or a separate Principle about it because I have really never seen something so shocking as "brace yourself Bridget" on Wikipedia, even among all the trolls and abusers who are not even regular editors. That's beyond the pale.
—DIYeditor ( talk) 22:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Banedon not sure what your level of English knowledge is so I will be blunt and explain in detail about "brace yourself Bridget" - bearing in mind I was not familiar with this phrase before this case myself. "Brace yourself" is what you say to someone when there is going to be an violent accident (if literal) or an shocking surprise (if figurative). "Bridget" is a stereotypical Irish female name. Apparently this phrase is some sort of running cultural joke in Ireland (self-deprecating I guess?) about marital sex. Basically, from my understanding, this clearly means "prepare yourself, you are about to get fucked, and it might be rough or hurt." LL has said other offensive things but this is so far over the line, in that it seemed to be directed at another editor, that a site ban is a minimum response to it. This is far beyond saying something off color or expressing a disruptive opinion (which LL has also done). —DIYeditor ( talk) 05:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
RE: BHG CBAN-- Sadly needed and overdue. The Community gave every opportunity.
RE:LL CBAN-- The sooner the better.
RE: Both-- Incredibly toxic. Their behavior dragged down the entire project. The Community needs to act sooner and more strongly in ejecting toxic individuals. -- Deepfriedokra ( talk) 23:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Clerk note: Moved from a different section to enforce sectioned discussion. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 16:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Watching from a distance, I think ArbCom handled the case well, and the PD is a good one. As for various complex sanctions that are being considered as alternatives to site bans, don't. (As I remember being said by others in previous cases, once we get to where a bunch of restrictions are all necessary, it's really better to just ban.) -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Despite having been on the receiving end of BHG's incivility, if I were an Arb and not recused, I'd likely still vote for "conduct restriction" over a total ban. N-th chance, arguably, but... well, I guess there is still WP:OFFER to consider in a year, plus, there are other wiki projects. Commons (where there are many messy categories) or such can surely benefit from her activity, particularly if she takes lessons from here to heart, finally, and uses her time at Commons wisely to build a case for the future OFFER here. Bottom line, we would all surely like to see a reformed editor rather than see them gone. Whether this is possible, of course... time will tell. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
First, I will restate (since restating this once is not bludgeoning) that I think that ArbCom failed to address an underlying issue, which is that deletion debates should be a contentious topic because some editors are consistently uncivil and disruptive in deletion discussions. There will be another case involving conduct in deletion in one to two years. This was the third in the past six years. The Portals case was the first, since it was really about deletion of portals. There will be another case sometime.
Second, I would like to express strong support for principle 3, "Being right isn't enough". BrownHairedGirl was technically right in all of the arguments about small categories, but was uncivil and unpleasant, which is one reason why other editors were not paying attention to her. This was also true in most of the Portal deletion discussions. She was right about what the Portal guideline said (until it was discovered that it was not a guideline). She was right about which portals needed deleting, but would have been more likely to make a case to the community if she had focused on reasoned argument rather than insulting another editor. She should not have said that another editor was lying, even if they were making incorrect statements of fact. The principle needs to be given a shortcut to make it easier to cite in the future.
Third, this was a very unpleasant case, although all arbitration cases are unpleasant because bad behavior is unpleasant. Maybe the unpleasantness had the side benefit that it made it obvious what the remedies had to be, so that the case is being resolved more quickly than usual.
Fourth, I am sad to see BHG sent off, but I agree that she left ArbCom no choice. Robert McClenon ( talk) 04:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Robert McClenon ( talk) 06:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
I am not sad to see BHG go. Her conduct has been unbecoming for years. No matter how much good work she has done, she has seriously harmed the encyclopedia with her argumentative nature. I wish this had happened back in October. Piotrus' comments above make me shudder for where BHG will land next, and the problems they will have keeping her behavior in check. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I feel pity that she could not see that her conduct is the issue, regardless of her belief in being right about SmallCat. I hope she takes the time to get right with herself and the world. I fear she won't and will only use this as fuel to increase her animosity and will funnel it elsewhere. Banning was the right decision; she left us no other option. -
UtherSRG
(talk) 11:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm not a party to this case but almost certainly would have been a party in the Portals case had I been active at the time, and we're all aware of the similarities between the two so I've been watching this one with interest. First, I think it's clear that the committee were right to accept this case. While BHG's behaviour was fairly well known, there's a strong chance LL's conduct would not have come to light any time soon without it.
In response to @ Barkeep49's comments about how useful it is to have input from non-parties, perhaps I could have contributed more and I apologise for not doing so; I'll keep an eye on future cases to see where I can add an "outside view" where appropriate. However I don't think I would have uncovered any further evidence or provided any additional insight that would have significantly changed the outcome of this case.
While I'm apologising, I recognise that I somewhat jumped the gun in by suggesting a proposed remedy within my preliminary statement, so I apologise for that too. Although it looks like ArbCom has reached the same conclusion, it was absolutely right that the case proceeded methodically, thoroughly, fairly and without any bias or preconceptions so that we can all have confidence in the proposed decisions.
On the PD itself, although site bans now have enough votes to pass for both BHG and LL, I understand that the alternative remedies are still being considered as potential fall-back positions that might be used in the event of a successful appeal. On that note I echo some of committee's comments (and those from other commenters) about the need to keep the remedies simple. Like @ Izno, I think @ Thryduulf's 500-word limit suggestion is a good one but I'm not sure how practical it would be to enforce. Waggers TALK 11:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I was one of the drafters of the Portals decision. Until you've served on the Arbitration Committee and have drafted one of these PDs, it's difficult to grok how intense and time-consuming it is. Well done to the drafters in this case.
I did not foresee how the Portals case would play out when I started reading the evidence there, almost four years ago now. It was not what I thought it was going into the draft. The evidence was clear, however, and I'm sorrier than I can say that BHG's continued bad behavior has led to the results here.
I think we all have problems to some degree seeing ourselves with clarity. We believe ourselves to be better or worse or more proficient or less able than we really are. There are those, however, who will always see themselves as the victim, the underdog who simply must bite back because they felt someone bit them first. I have a couple of these folks in my family, and one of them needs that grievance mentality in order to... survive, I'd say. Maybe BHG is that way, maybe not. In the end, for this community, there's too much energy being used to feed her sense of persecution, and it's time for us to show her the door. I hope she finds peace and contentment in her future endeavors. Katie talk 16:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I think this ultimately is the right decision. Countless editors have been driven off Wikipedia by this person over a period of years, unfortunately somewhat enabled by a coterie of supporters with varying degrees of social and structural power. We focus so much on how an individual contributes but forget how many would contribute if not for them - and I am not just thinking of this individual or this case, but plenty of others I've seen in my 18 years here. Back in the days when we had a very vibrant and active community this would have been better handled by the community itself, but in the present it's been necessary for ArbCom to stand up, and I appreciate the clarity, transparency and courage of the arbitrators demonstrated in this case. Orderinchaos 03:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)