A few hours ago, I blocked Captain Occam ( talk · contribs) for edit warring, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, disruptive editing, and assumptions of bad faith. I have unblocked them for the purpose of participating here, as they appear to be central to this case. - 2/0 ( cont.) 00:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC) reply

It appears that User:David.Kane ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is now engaging in selective canvassing of editors that have previously shown support of his efforts. [10] [11] [12] LeadSongDog come howl! 16:18, 18 August 2010 (UTC) reply

Permanent link

Initiated by aprock ( talk) at 19:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC) reply

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• aprock ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Captain Occam ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Snowded ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Vecrumba ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Slrubenstein ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Slrubenstein
• WeijiBaikeBianji
• Vercumba
• Snowded
• Captain Occam

Statement by aprock

There is currently a meta discussion on Talk:Race_(classification_of_humans) amongst the affected users listed above about whether or not User:Captain Occam's topic ban includes that page or not [13]. The findings of fact indicate: Of the 306 edits made to date to his ten most-edited articles, only 17 (6%) do not relate to race and intelligence [14]. When the tool server stats are consulted, the implication is that "race" and "intelligence" articles are being considered here [15] (the non R/I articles seem to be William Beebe and Marquand Park).

Given the fact that there seems to be some confusion about what the scope of articles covered by the remedy: "8) Captain Occam (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from race and intelligence related articles, broadly construed." [16], I would like to request a clarification of what articles are covered. (Note, I'm not sure of the best way to handle this request, so if this is premature I apologize and request guidance.) aprock ( talk) 19:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC) reply

I would also like to specifically ask whether New_Black_Panther_Party is covered by the topic ban. aprock ( talk) 19:22, 23 August 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by WeijiBaikeBianji

I thank aprock for his notification of this clarification request. Yes, I too am interested in the scope of the topic ban under the Race and intelligence Arbitration Committee case, because I have already asked, with a helpful response from arbitrator Carcharoth, how the community might help make editors aware that some articles are within the scope of the discretionary sanctions to be adopted in the soon final decision of that case. I have already written a template for article talk pages and a template to remind editors, inviting comments about and edits to those templates from more experienced editors, so that all members of the community will have notice of the ArbCom decision and its topic scope. I have given the individual findings of fact on editor conduct in the ArbCom case a close reading to determine which articles are subject to the topic ban, but at least one editor who is about to be banned seems to read the topic restriction more narrowly. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 19:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vecrumba

Given that there is contention regarding the role and nature of race (societal, biological, genomic) and that there is still debate as to what degree "race" as a societal concept is mirrored in real genetics, any race related topic dealing with concepts of, evolution, biology, heritability, etc. could be considered as being in scope. I would request that for the editors subject to the topic ban, that clear (and "single voice of ArbCom") guidance be given regarding specific articles in and out of scope of the topic ban at the case mentioned. Editors should not find themselves in the position of interpreting a topic ban, interpreting ArbCom discussions as to scope of ban, or be potentially subjected to, for example (unfortunately), harassing policing by their editorial opposition where there is a difference of opinion on scope of ban. A prompt and clear response will go a long way toward calming the subject matter area. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 21:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC) reply

To some of the commentary subsequently, I would respectfully request that we stick to the request for clarification, not relitigate R&I in the light of other articles. Either "Race (classification of humans)", for example, is in scope (that is, with respect to all sanctioned editors, so individual editors conduct at any impacted article is immaterial), or it is not. Plain and simple. A single:

This article falls under the "Race and intelligence" topic ban of (DATE), widely construed. Participating editors are reminded not to contact topic banned editors regarding this article as such contact can be taken as baiting editors to violate their topic ban. Thank you for everyone's cooperation.

at the top of article talk will do. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 16:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Slrubenstein

First, at Race and Intelligence, Captain Ocaam, David kane and Mikemikev generally pushed two views: that average diferences in IQ according to race have or likely have a genetic basis, and that races are biologically real (or natural divisions among humans). The first claim was relevant to some other articles, like Heritability of IQ whereas the second claim was relevant to different articles, especially Race. Captain Occam's first edit at Race this year was specifically concerning "race and IQ" [17] so it is pretty clear to me that his interest in this article is tied to his interested in the Race and IQ article.

Second, it is my opinion that Mikemikev, David Kane and Captain Occam only began editing the Race article because of the way the conflict at R&I heated up. In other words, they went to Race not only to push the same POV as they were pushing at R&I, but also to change a WP article so that it would support the edits they were making at R&I.

For these reasons I think Race is relevant to the recent ArbCom ruling. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Muntuwandi

David.Kane who is one of the editors subject to a topic ban on race and intelliegence, was recently blocked for edit warring on Race (classification of humans). Mikemikev who according to the arbitration proceedings is due to be site banned for a year, was recently blocked for edit warring on Race (classification of humans). Mikemikev was later indefinitely blocked for incivility and harassment due in part to comments made in edit summaries to Race (classification of humans) and other controversial statements linked to the main Race article as described in in this ANI report.

There is a suggestion that the evidence submitted to Arbcom only pertained to race and intelligence article. The first diff in this section of my evidence submission is linked to the Race and genetics article. In summary, I have always taken for granted that this current controversy is spread over a number of related articles including Race (classification of humans) and Race and genetics.

Finally I would like to seek clarification on the Meatpuppetry. Would it be necessary to file a completely new request or can this be handled in this case. Wapondaponda ( talk) 02:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Captain Occam

Since Cool Hand Luke is commenting here, I’m assuming that it’s acceptable for this to be discussed here when the case isn’t closed yet, so I’m going to offer my statement about it now.

I need to make it clear that I have no intention to actually continue editing the Race (classification of humans) article, and I’ve stated this several times on the talk page for that article. The reason Aprock, Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi have been asking about this here is because I also stated on this article’s talk page that I consider my decision to stay out of this article a voluntary one, so I did not think it should be necessary for me to promise to never edit this article for the duration of my topic ban. But apparently, my statement that I would be voluntarily staying out of this article was unacceptable enough to them that they needed to bring this up here.

However, I do intend to eventually create an article about the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case. And this has nothing to do with my interest in race—I consider this a politics topic, and it’s the only recent political controversy in the United States that does not yet have its own article here. In this thread on the proposed decision talk page, I asked the arbitrators whether my topic ban extended to this article, and all three of the arbitrators who expressed an opinion there (Newyorkbrad, Rlevse, and Carcharoth) stated that in their opinion it did not. Rlevese and Carcharoth both also explained why in their opinion it did not:

[18]: Without reading the findings, especially the ones one locus, and case history, one could read it as being about "race and intelligence" or "race" and "intelligence". But if you read the findings on locus and case history, they clearly center on "race and intelligence". The proposed article by Captain Occam seems, from what I can tell to lack the "intelligence" aspect as it's about voting.

[19]: The locus findings make clear this case is narrowly about race and intelligence (the category is linked there). One of the reasons the locus is so narrow is because the editors in question had a very narrow focus and the further questions arise because these editors are expanding this focus. I did propose a remedy that was purely race-related, see remedy 4, but that failed to pass.

This seems reasonable to me. Although my involvement in other race-related articles was brought up in order to show the focus of my editing over the past year, the locus of dispute makes it clear that this arbitration case was specifically about articles in this category, and I don’t think there’s any evidence that I’ve caused disruption outside of this category. For example, I’ve only made a single edit to the Race (classification of humans) article in the past three months, and have only edited it a total of 11 times in all the time I’ve been active on Wikipedia. Contrary to Slrubenstein’s statement, the arbcom ruling about me also does not state that I’ve engaged in POV-pushing on these articles—I’m being sanctioned for edit warring and false claims of consensus, and the finding of fact about me does not mention POV-pushing at all. For these reasons, as well as the reasons given by Rlevse and Carcharoth that I quoted, I don’t think my topic ban should be extended beyond the locus of dispute for this case.

As I said, my ability to edit the Race (classification of humans) article is not important to me, but I would definitely consider it a loss if I were disallowed from editing any article that mentions race or IQ, the vast majority of which are far beyond the topic area where I’ve caused any disruption. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 06:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply

I’d also like to add that in order to avoid similar requests for clarification being necessary in the future, it would be helpful if ArbCom could come up with a clearly-defined boundary for my (and David.Kane’s and Mathsci’s) topic ban. For example, if the topic bans cover every article related to the race and intelligence controversy, then that’s very easy to understand—it means that if an article is listed in this category then we can’t edit it, but if it isn’t then we can. However, I predict that a less clearly-defined boundary will result in a lot of further confusion over this. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 06:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply

In light of the comments below (particularly Cool Hand Luke’s comment), the way that I’m currently interpreting the scope of my topic ban is that it covers all controversies that are specifically about race—such as what causes the difference in average IQ between races, to what extent racial groups line up with genetic clusters based on geographic ancestry, etc. But the conclusion I’m drawing is that my topic ban does not extend to articles about controversies where race is only one of many elements they involve, and not the main element. So on the topic of the voter intimidation case, there’s a race element because the New Black Panther Party is considered a black supremacist group, but the central controversy is over whether Obama’s department of justice is allowing politics to interfere with the objective application of justice, and that’s why the topic ban doesn’t cover it.

It would be helpful if arbitrators could clarify whether this interpretation is correct. I also approve of Vecrumba’s suggestion above, that labels be placed be placed on all of the articles covered by topic bans in order to forestall any future confusion over this. However, if this solution is to be used, I think the labels need to be placed by either clerks or arbitrators themselves. Otherwise, they’re going to represent only one editor’s interpretation of the scope of topic bans, which is not necessarily correct. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 17:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• No, editing Race (classification of humans) is prohibited by the topic ban. The remedy says that the topic ban applies to "race and intelligence related articles, broadly construed." Construing it broadly, I think all articles about race controversies are included, including the Race article, and we did include this article when counting R/I edits, as aprock says. I may be open to allowing this editing after a few months of non-controversial editing (and I would personally entertain a request for amendment at a future date to allow such editing). However, I see no reason to allow such editing immediately after the case closed; users should take this opportunity to branch out. (Actually, the case isn't even closed yet, although it should be according to the time-stamps.) I have no strong views on whether New Black Panther Party is included; I think it is technically outside of the topic ban, but I would caution the user. Controversial editing in this area may lead to AE or other discretionary sanctions. Cool Hand Luke 04:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC) revised 16:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply
  • I think that New Black Panther Party is not primarily about race in the way that articles in the R&I category or Race (classification of humans) are centrally about race and claimed differences between races. I agree that it's outside of the topic ban for that reason. However, I reiterate that it's a very bad idea to edit in such a controversial area on the heels of an ArbCom case. See NYB's comment. Cool Hand Luke 22:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply
• There are two different things here and it is best to keep them separate.
  First, the discretionary sanctions apply to editors working on articles within the Race and intelligence controversy category and any closely related articles (which, for example, were for whatever reason not tagged as part of the controversy category). However, individual sanctions under this remedy can be very wide-ranging and can prevent specified editors working on any article, or commenting on any page.
  Second, the topic ban applying to named editors is much broader (which is why it doesn't use the same language as the discretionary sanctions) and applies to articles about race and about intelligence. The topic ban's objective is to prevent exportation of the dispute to other areas and to prevent pushing of permutations of the same POV agenda.
  I have no current opinion on the Black Panther article.   Roger Davies ^talk 06:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Expanded   Roger Davies ^talk 08:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply
• The two Arbiters above covered it fairly completely but I'd also like to note that topic banned editors shouldn't be discussing the topic with other editors, especially not to try to influence their editing. I also want to remind Captain Occam that if people known to be associated with him suddenly start editing these articles, it will not be viewed favorably. Shell ^babelfish 07:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply
• I am in general agreement with the other arbitrators on their interpretation of the scope of the topic-ban. I also reiterate my view that while the New Black Panther Party case is not within the scope of the topic-ban, it is a really poor idea for Captain Occam to start his editing career outside the race-and-intelligence area with this article. Please find another area to edit in; at a minimum, if your editing in areas relating directly or indirectly to race issues or matters pertaining to members of a particular race or ethnicity is tendentious or problematic, I anticipate that we will be asked to expand the scope of the ban, and that we would have to consider that request very seriously. I hope that this will not be necessary. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 09:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply
• Concur with prior arbiters. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC) reply
• Given what has elapsed here, I think the topic ban should be extended to include race-related articles. However, as I pointed out, a remedy proposing that in the proposed decision did not pass. I regret that Captain Occam chose (on the proposed decision talk page) to interpret this as implicit support for him editing so close to the boundaries here. There are plenty of articles he could chose to edit that are unrelated to either race or intelligence or both. There is absolutely no need to test the boundaries here in any way whatsoever. Carcharoth ( talk) 00:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed with those above. SirFozzie ( talk) 23:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC) reply

Initiated by Wapondaponda ( talk) at 06:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Case affected

Race and intelligence arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Captain_Occam_topic-banned

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Muntuwandi ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Captain Occam ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Captain Occam
• Ferahgo the Assassin

Amendment 1

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Captain_Occam_topic-banned
• The extension of the topic ban to include Ferahgo the Assassin who appears to be either a proxy account or a Sockpuppet account of Captain Occam.

Statement by Muntuwandi

This is a follow up to a request for enforcement found in this archive. According to the result two uninvolved administrators, Stifle and Slp1 stated that administrators who monitor the enforcement noticeboard were not in the position to make a decision concerning the request ( Stifle suggested a request for amendment).

Immediately after Captain Occam's topic ban was confirmed, Ferahgo the Assassin, a user who apparently is known to Captain Occam, took an interest in editing race and intelligence articles. According to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Captain Occam/Archive, the closing admin recommended that the two accounts should be treated as one per WP:SHARE. However no ruling was made concerning this matter from the enforcement noticeboard.

Since no ruling was made, Ferahgo the Assassin has continued to be involved in race and intelligence matters. The user's pattern of editing on race and intelligence matters is similar to that of Captain Occam. Much of the evidence is found at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive68. More recent events include further canvassing. Captain Occam has on occasion tried to seek help from Dbachmann [20], [21], [22]. Recently Ferahgo the Assassin also tried to get help from Dbachmann, though it is the user's 'first time' communicating with Dbachmann, the user is already familiar with Dab stating. "You seem to be more active and responsive than him, so I figured I'd ask you" [23].

Others have argued that Ferahgo the Assassin should be treated as independent editor. I find this argument untenable. In the four years since Ferahgo the Assassin has been a registered user, all his or her edits prior to the arbitration were to support Captain Occam or his suggestions. I therefore see no evidence both post and pre-Arbitration of independent editing.

In summary Captain Occam appears to be gaming his topic ban, either by being a sockpuppet or by getting another editor to make edits on his behalf. I consider this a violation of his topic ban.

Wapondaponda ( talk) 06:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Ferahgo

"I've made a number of productive contributions to them".Forgive me in advance but my reservoir of good faith has been somewhat depleted by recent events. I am of the opinion that many of your so called "productive edits" are really token edits to muddy up the issue. I believe that you are Captain Occam and that you are trying your best to be disruptive and at the same time trying your best to not get discovered. The current trajectory of your edits is clearly in the direction of more disruption. These edits [24], [25], and [26] are clearly confrontational and reminiscent of Captain Occam. : Wapondaponda ( talk) 10:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Isn't giving editors a chance in this respect the whole point of WP:ROPE?. How ironic, as Maunus has pointed out, after this statement. Indeed Captain Occam seems to be hoping that discretionary sanctions are applied to editors he doesn't agree with, see also User_talk:Georgewilliamherbert/Archives/2010/August#A_question_about_discretionary_sanctions. Seems like a continuance of WP:BATTLEGROUND. Wapondaponda ( talk) 05:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Accusations of harassment

I understand some of the sensitivities associated with this incident. I don't think anyone would want a newbie editor to immediately get caught up in arbitration hearings, per WP:BITE. At the same time others may exploit WP:BITE, to deflect legitimate criticisms. I take accusations of harassment very seriously. According to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Single_purpose_accounts and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Captain_Occam_.28conduct.29, single issue editing was a cause of concern. Captain Occam had an intense fixation on race and intelligence issues, which in my opinion was a major contributing factor to the escalation of the dispute. Captain Occam received a temporary editing restriction in part to help deescalate the dispute. If Captain Occam were to circumvent this editing restriction by having someone else make his choice of edits, then it defeats the purpose of the editing restriction. I believe the behavioral evidence strongly suggests that Captain Occam is either Ferahgo the Assassin or Ferahgo the Assassin is working in concert with Captain Occam. I have followed the appropriate channels to have this concern addressed, and while not everyone agrees with me, a number of editors, including uninvolved administrators, have stated that WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT or WP:SHARE are legitimate concerns. As long as this request is resolved, I will respect whatever decision is made, and will move on.  : Wapondaponda ( talk) 08:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Ferahgo over chronology

Ferahgo states

"The arbcom decision was finalized on Aug 24. I stated my intention to get involved in these articles on Aug 21"

and

"For you to try and make your case look stronger by misrepresenting when I got involved in these articles is really disingenuous."

The point is that within a short time of the topic ban, Ferahgo decided to get involved in race issues. I was speaking in general terms when I wrote "something like within hours". Unfortunately I have to be pedantic and address this. According to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision, items that receive a majority vote, in this case 6 votes, would pass. Looking at Captain Occam's section, the sixth vote in support of a topic ban came in at 06:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC) and the seventh at 21:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC). At 04:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC), that is within less than 24 hours of the sixth vote, Ferahgo the Assassin declares intentions to edit race and intelligence articles [27]. Wapondaponda ( talk) 20:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply

I find Captain Occam's recommendation that Captain Occam, in the form of Ferahgo the Assassin, be placed on probation quite comical. I want to respond to a few accusations. But I believe that if I were to add further comments to this thread, they wouldn't add much value to what is already in place. So I will avoid making more comments because I believe the pattern of editing of the involved editors is clear by now. Editors already familiar with Captain Occam will note that Ferahgo's conduct in this thread, responding to every post, conjuring up excuses for everything is certainly Occamesque.

I have mentioned before that I have only reluctantly requested for the account Ferahgo to fall under the scope of arbcom restrictions. It is possible that Ferahgo is a separate individual from Captain Occam so I do share the discomfort that a number of other editors have because it would be unfair to WP:BITE a newbie editor to the controversy. My concern isn't Ferahgo, rather it is Captain Occam. I would request others to not consider this thread a discussion about Ferahgo the individual, that is if he or she exists, rather it should be about whether Captain Occam is evading his editing restrictions by WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT OR WP:SHARE. If another editor is assisting Captain Occam evade his topic ban, then they shouldn't be surprised that that any restrictions on Captain Occam may be placed on them as well.

Just to specifically respond to accusations of coordinated POV pushing that Ferahgo/Occam are using to try to shift attention from their own conduct.

Ferahgo states

"It's about Muntuwandi and Weiji wanting to get rid of me - an easy target - so they can push their POVs more easily"

and

"Whether Weiji is right or wrong to want this, what matters here is that he and Muntuwandi shouldn't be trying to win a content dispute by getting arbcom to eliminate their opposition"

I think Weiji and I make our own independent decisions, we haven't agreed on everything. For instance here, I disagreed with Weiji over an article move (something which Ferahgo/Occam conveniently omitted from their evidence). Weiji later stated that his decision to move the article was based on a Britannica article and I understood where he was coming from. Wapondaponda ( talk) 04:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Kirill

I respectfully disagree that there is little evidence suggesting that Ferahgo the Assassin and Captain Occam are not independent. Two administrators have advised Ferahgo the Assassin that given her connection with Captain Occam, it wasn't a good idea for the user to be involved in race and intelligence matters immediately after Captain Occam's topic ban. According to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Captain_Occam/Archive#Clerk.2C_patrolling_admin_and_checkuser_comments two uninvolved admins felt there was evidence. A checkuser was not carried out, as Captain Occam preempted it by admitting that he and Ferahgo the Assassin use the same Network/Computer when working on Wikipedia. As Stifle mentioned here , some declaratory relief would be helpful ie either Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin are meatpuppets or they are not. I do think they are, I do not yet know what the broader community's opinion about this is, which is why have I filed this request. I will live with whatever is decided.

Wapondaponda ( talk) 18:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Vecrumba

"I've already commented that this sort of painful prolonging of the arbitration (now seeming more like insistence) is unhelpful". I think the editors prolonging the arbitration are Captain Occam and his proxy account. If Captain Occam had been observing his topic ban like Mathsci or David.Kane, I wouldn't have filed this request. I don't enjoy filing these requests and I am doing so reluctantly and after some thought and consideration. Until today, Ferahgo the Assassin had never edited the race and genetics article. The user's very first edit to race and genetics is to revert to the use of an image related to the image which Captain Occam had been edit warring over [28]. Is this just a coincidence? I can't help but think not. : Wapondaponda ( talk) 16:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Tim Song

I understand what you are saying. Basically even if F is a sock or meat of CO, as long as F is conducting themselves reasonably, then there are no problems. I have been thinking about that which was why I initially stated that I wasn't going to file another request after the enforcement request. The principle is found at Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, which would imply that even if Occam is violating his topic ban by proxy or sock editing, if his edits are not hurting the encyclopedia, then it shouldn't matter. Others will argue that for a community to function effectively, rules should be observed. It's a philosophical issue that is beyond the scope of this debate.

You state "Once again we focus too much on the users and not the conduct." This is also fair, but I would like to give some context. The current dispute is close to one year old. For several months there was a lot of bickering over content issues with no peaceful resolution in sight. The dispute was escalated to Arbcom for the precise purpose of investigating user conduct issues. As the saying goes, Arbcom doesn't deal with content problems. In short, based on the circumstances of this dispute, some focus on users is justified.

Wapondaponda ( talk) 17:56, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Occam

"One effect of his doing this was to once again remove a chart from this article that he edit warred to remove a year ago (described in my arbitration evidence here), which resulted in him being placed under a month of 1RR on this article". Once again you are cherry picking sanctions, as GWH chose not to take sides and slapped a 0RR restriction on the both of us. See his comment here. I suggest that you refactor your statement to reflect this. The issue of the image has not been resolved. The subject is quite technical so I will make it as simple as possible. Captain Occam inserted an image into the race and genetics article. On his talk page he provides a link to his blog where he discusses the image [29] in which he writes that the image proves the unpopular theory that there is a biological basis for race. Captain Occam admits on his blog that he hasn't read the book where the image was originally sourced from, that is Cavalli Sforza's History and Geography of Human Genes. Captain Occam learned of the image from reading Arthur Jensen's book, The G factor, a book that is concerned with race and intelligence, the topic which Occam is fixated on. My conclusion, Captain Occam is advocating a race and intelligence POV in a separate article race and genetics. In fact I consider this the worst form of POV pushing because Occam was edit warring over an image from a book which he admitted he hadn't read. A book which explicitly states that readers shouldn't attach a racial meaning to the image, when Captain Occam was in fact attaching a racial meaning to the image. I started editing the race and genetics article after I read Cavalli-Sforza's books, so I hope others can understand my frustration that someone else was edit warring over content from a book which they had not read and showed no intention of reading. Wapondaponda ( talk) 02:17, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to David Kane

"I assume that we all agree that Ferahgo and Occam are, in real life, two separate people"'. I don't necessarily agree with this line of reasoning. For Wikipedia purposes, it is possible that two separate editors may be treated as a single entity. According to WP:MEAT,

"For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has decided that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity"

If the account named Ferahgo was indeed an independent editor, then this issue would never have been raised. Strictly speaking, this issue isn't about Ferahgo the Assassin, rather it is about Captain Occam and whether Captain Occam is using another editor or another account to try to evade his topic ban. The fact that an account named Ferahgo the Assassin decided to get involved in race issues something like within hours of Captain Occam's editing restriction being finalized demonstrates a lack of independence between the two accounts.

Wapondaponda ( talk) 18:06, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Maunus

Regarding your statement

"Furthermore since David Kane and Occam have been topic banned I find myself feeling forced to make pro-hereditarian edits, simply because this viewpoint is now very weakly represented (among editors, not in the articles), I don't enjoy this as it is not a view I personally entertain"

I was intending to specifically address this issue, but Captain Occam's topic ban has never really worked because he has managed to evade it twice, first by claiming that the main race article didn't fall under the editing restrictions, and second by proxy editing. The notion that disruptive editing is somehow a necessary evil for the sake of neutrality just isn't true. Before Captain Occam and David Kane got involved in race issues, all the articles that included hereditarian arguments were already in place. So it isn't appropriate to give the missimpression that these two editors are the only editors who can represent "hereditarian theories" on wikipedia. You are implying that many editors involved in the articles are somehow non-neutral. There is general agreement among most or all editors involved that hereditarian or biological theories should be represented, the major concern is that they should not be misrepresented or given undue weight beyond the weight given to them by mainstream academia. In short, one doesn't need any elaborate excuses to make "pro-hereditarian arguments", one can simply go ahead and make them as others have done in the past.

As for "so what if Ferahgo is really proxy editing for Occam, as long as she is not displaying his behavioural problems as well". The decision will be up to the community through our representatives on Arbcom. That is should we allow Captain Occam to evade his topic ban (while others observe theirs) because FTA is allegedly not as disruptive as Captain Occam ( I still believe the user is disruptive). While we all have our POV, we should recall the guiding principles from the Arbcom case on single issue editing was

"Single purpose accounts are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral, which could strongly suggest that their editing is not compatible with the goals of this project."

Wapondaponda ( talk) 05:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Michael Price

I have stated that I have no problem with the image when it is sourced to the original authors and discussed in the way the original authors discussed the image. The problem is that the controversial scholar, Arthur Jensen used Cavalli-Sforza's image in his book The G-factor in a way that was inconsistent with Cavalli-Sforza's original interpretation. Captain Occam, based on his own admission, had never read Cavalli-Sforza's work used the image based on Arthur Jensen's interpretation, not on Cavalli-Sforza interpretation. This in the nutshell is the origin of the dispute concerning the image. Wapondaponda ( talk) 05:49, 4 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Re "you don't have to read a book before posting an image from it -". True, there is no policy that requires users to read the sources the cite. But I think we can all agree that it certainly is helpful to a read source before citing it to make sure that one is citing correctly or not taking things out of context.

I have never stated that I do or do not like Arthur Jensen's publications, only that they are controversial. More importantly Arthur Jensen isn't a molecular geneticist but a psychologist, and his book The G-Factor isn't about molecular genetics. The book and the author are therefore not good candidates for a reliable source on the subject.

I have had some challenges with image. Humans are visual creatures and Wikipedians appreciate images and articles with images. As the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words. Many casual readers find the image quite interesting, and I do too. However few readers seem to pay attention to the actual text in the article or pay even less attention to the original source. The authors of the image do not use the image in a racial way, and they specifically caution that the image shouldn't be interpreted in a racial way. So my question has been why is this image being used in a racial context when the authors of the image did not. In my opinion it is due to inappropriate advocacy. I have no problem with using the image in an appropriate article such as human genetic variation or human evolution. Wapondaponda ( talk) 02:38, 5 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Maunus over topic ban proposal

I understand you have a good rapport with both Captain Occam and Ferahgo, and you have openly stated you would be happier if both had no editing restrictions. I am therefore aware that you have been uncomfortable with the discussions concerning FTA. I hope this is not the motivation for your proposal. I have persisted with this concern only because there was no decision and also because a number of uninvolved editors suggested the concern was legitimate. So far, I have not seen comments from uninvolved editors suggesting that my conduct has been inappropriate or way of line, so I have continued. I have stated on numerous occasions that I wish to voluntarily disengage from these topics for a while, and I haven't touched race and intelligence articles since the arbitration ended. I have maintained an interest in Captain Occam/FTA because the matter was one of the loose ends from the Arbcom case. If it is resolved, then I can move on as well. Wapondaponda ( talk) 05:35, 7 October 2010 (UTC) reply

To ANI

I have started a thread at ANI. A number of editors on all sides have expressed concern that a decision has not been forthcoming. Since Arbcom has already authorized administrative discretion, then maybe the community can reach a preliminary consensus over the matter, which would help deescalate some of the existing tension. Wapondaponda ( talk) 00:21, 7 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin

In the few weeks that I've been participating on these articles, I've made a number of productive contributions to them, including suggesting new sources, rewording unclear sentences, seeking to achieve consensus on the talk pages, pointing out things I'd noticed, and striving to achieve neutrality. I have been using much of my free time recently to read and research this topic outside of Wikipedia in order to better contribute here. I had been under the impression that my presence here has been constructive and beneficial overall, and the other editors involved have been treating me like any other editor. Even editors like WeijiBaikeBianji and Aprock, who tend to disagree with me from time to time, have been willing to work with me to exchange ideas and improve the article. Of the currently involved editors, Muntuwandi - who is barely involved at all right now - is the only one who appears to think that I'm a sock or meatpuppet.

I have not violated a single policy since beginning to edit here: no tag-teaming, no edit warring, no false claims of consensus - nothing that Occam got in trouble for doing. The assertion that I was "canvassing" by asking DBachmann a question is ridiculous. I was specifically told by GWH [30] that I should ask an admin if I'm afraid there might be a policy violation on an article with discretionary sanctions, and that's exactly what I did. And yes, I'm familiar with DBachmann from watching these articles for a long time now, and his pattern of responsiveness is easy to see from his contributions. Other editors involved in these articles have contacted him for help recently: [31] It's also obvious that he's familiar with these articles in general: [32] There are very few admins who pay attention to R&I articles without being involved and are also very responsive, so it shouldn't be a surprise that there's some overlap in the admins Occam and I have contacted.

Muntuwandi's assertion that "In the four years since Ferahgo the Assassin has been a registered user, all his or her edits prior to the arbitration were to support Captain Occam or his suggestions" is downright ridiculous and demonstrably false. Take a look at my most edited articles: [33] Both before and after I became involved in these articles, most of my contributions have been to completely different types of articles from what Occam has been involved in, which does not fit the definition of Meatpuppetry given at Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Meatpuppetry: “A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose.”

I suspect that Muntuwandi chose to bring this arbcom case back from the dead today because I undid his revert on the Race and Genetics article. The reason I did this was because he reverted the article back to a version from over a year ago, undoing over a hundred edits in one revert without discussing it with anyone first. [34] Every time I've seen someone do this - which isn't many - it's always been regarded as disruptive.

Before I got involved in these articles, several people were worried my behavior and editing pattern would be too similar to Occam's. But I think it's unnecessary to be worried about this now that after being involved for a few weeks, all of my contributions to the articles have been constructive, and I have not engaged in any of the behavior Occam was sanctioned for. Sanctions are meant to be preventative, not punitive. Therefore I don't think it's reasonable to be topic-banned based on the fear that I might cause the same problems Occam did, when my actual contributions show otherwise. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 08:21, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Muntuwandi

Muntuwandi, all of the edits you've linked to were discussed on the talk pages and everyone except Weijibaikebianji agreed they were improvements. What you regard as confrontational almost everyone else sees as constructive. Your assumption of bad faith seems to be extending to twisting reality to make me look bad, when I haven't done anything wrong. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 11:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

@ Muntuwandi: "The fact that an account named Ferahgo the Assassin decided to get involved in race issues something like within hours of Captain Occam's editing restriction being finalized demonstrates a lack of independence between the two accounts."

The arbcom decision was finalized on Aug 24. I stated my intention to get involved in these articles on Aug 21 [35], though I didn't get involved right away due to being busy with Rahiolisaurus and Siamotyrannus at the time. My first comment after the case that had anything to do with R&I was on Aug 27 [36], three days after arbitration had finished. I already explained elsewhere in my statement why I got involved when I did. For you to try and make your case look stronger by misrepresenting when I got involved in these articles is really disingenuous. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 19:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply

@ Muntuwandi 2: Once again, you're choosing to see what you want to see. I've already stated more than once that one of the main reasons I didn't get involved until after arbitration was because I couldn't stand Mathsci's behavior. So how about you take a look at whether there's any relationship between my getting involved and Mathsci's topic ban? Mathsci’s topic ban received the necessary number of votes from arbitrators at 23:30 on Aug 20. I expressed my intention to get involved around five hours later. And I stated this was because I expected to see improvements in the editing environment, which was due in large part to Mathsci's absence. My decision to get involved has a far closer and more obvious relationship to Mathsci's topic ban than anything else. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 21:29, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply

@ Muntuwandi 3: "My concern isn't Ferahgo, rather it is Captain Occam. I would request others to not consider this thread a discussion about Ferahgo the individual, that is if he or she exists, rather it should be about whether Captain Occam is evading his editing restrictions by WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT OR WP:SHARE."

I underside the point you're trying to make, but from my perspective this just seems dehumanizing and unfair. It is about me, not about Occam. Your SPI concluded that he and I are separate people, though it did raise the issue of a topic ban based on WP:SHARE. If I get banned because of Occam, then I'm the one who suffers, not him.

There seems to be some deliberate ambiguity about what policy you think is being violated. The SPI concluded I'm unlikely to be a sockpuppet, and I don't fit the definition of meatpuppet either. A meatpuppet is "a new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose." Around three-quarters of my edits are still outside of this topic area. [37] But when David.Kane pointed out that the WP:SHARE policy only applies to policies such as 3RR and not editing restrictions, you responded by claiming the issue isn't WP:SHARE but meatpuppetry instead. Can you please be specific about which of these three policies you think I'm violating? - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 17:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Shell

Shell: I know that Occam and I could be considered closely-connected users via Wikipedia:SHARE. It says: "“Closely connected users may be considered a single user for Wikipedia's purposes if they edit with the same objectives.” Occam and I might have had similar objectives before the arbcom case, and at that point it didn't matter if we did. When he didn't have sanctions against him it only mattered that we observed policies like 3RR as though we were the same account, and we were careful to do so.

Things are totally different now. Occam is topic-banned and that means it's important that I don't edit these articles with the same objectives he did. Wikipedia:SHARE is very clear about this: if I edit the articles with the same objectives as him, then he and I can be considered the same account. If I don’t, then we can’t. That's why I've recently gone to so much trouble developing my own independent style and personality in editing these articles, researching outside of Wikipedia, reading a great deal on this topic, etc. Every other involved editor besides Muntuwandi seems to acknowledge this.

I don't feel that there's anything to indicate that my current editing style or objectives are more similar to Occam's than they are to many other editors. For example, my undo of Muntuwandi's revert of a year's worth of edits with no discussion. Even if this is something Occam would have done (and I don't even know if it is!) it's also something that loads of other editors would have done, since it was pretty obviously disruptive. You might as well accuse me of being Occam because I revert vandalism, since that's probably something he would do too! During the time since Occam's topic ban, is there anything about my edits that indicate they're more similar to Occam than they are to, say, Victor Chmara and Maunus? - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 22:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Maunus

Maunus: As far as I know, the only pov I've been taking on these articles is a neutral one. That seems consistent with the fact that others like you and aprock have agreed that each of my edits has been beneficial. If there's something non-neutral about my editing patterns, it'd be nice if someone had pointed this out to me on the talk pages.

I honestly feel that avoiding repeating Occam's mistakes will be a pretty simple task. From my understanding he came to these articles before getting much experience with anything else at Wikipedia, and at a time when the editing environment on them was pretty terrible. He had no editing experience elsewhere and ended up copying and contributing to the same problematic behavior that was the norm there at that point. I'm coming here with a fair amount of experience, both from editing unrelated topics and from watching these articles for quite a while. I also obviously watched the arbcom case and I know exactly what everyone got sanctioned for. It shouldn't be hard to figure out how I can avoid doing the same things, especially with the improved editing environment.

Also I pointed out somewhere before (might have been the arb enforcement thread) that the reason I'm editing these articles now is because I've always been interested in this topic, but for ages have been afraid to get involved because of the editing atmosphere. As I stated in my evidence for the arbcom case, I've tried getting involved before and other editors were unwilling to respond to me with anything other than ad hominem attacks. Likely because of the discretionary sanctions, these problems have mostly gone away. I'd have begun editing here sooner if they'd gone away before the arbcom case. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 01:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Prof Marginalia

Prof Marginalia: Everything in your comment I've already addressed at length. I'd like to point out something else I've noticed, though. Of the people commenting here who are actually editing with me on these articles, every one of them is arguing against a topic ban. And these are the people with experience to know whether I'm being disruptive or not. The only people for the topic ban (so far just you and Muntuwandi) are people who haven't been participating in these articles since the end of the arb case.

I see two groups of people here. People who just care about the quality of the articles, and the people who want to continue petty drama leftover from the arb case. The active editors don't always agree with me on content, but we're willing to get along and make actual improvements when people like you and Muntuwandi aren't interfering. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 21:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

@Prof M: There wouldn't be any drama if not for these threads, since I've made nothing but constructive edits since the arb case and have not engaged in disruptive behavior. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 23:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

@ Prof M: I'd like to point out once again that nothing I was doing before the arbcom case violated policy. Occam and I were closely related accounts, and we also frequently edited with the same objectives, so Occam disclosed his off-Wiki connection to me immediately after I first became involved in the articles. [38] (When you say I've been "dodgy" about this are you not including his having stated this last November? So you consider me the same person as him in every respect but this one?) Whether you like it or not, WP:SHARE makes it clear that none of what I did was a policy violation, as long as he and I disclosed our connection and observed policies like 3RR as though we were a single user - which we did.

As I described in my arbitration evidence, even though I was careful to follow this policy, I was never met with anything other than hostility when discussing these articles. Remember, this was months after Occam had disclosed his off-wiki connection to me in his user talk, which should have been all that mattered. Yet even though no one could ever point to a specific policy I was violating, every comment I tried to leave was pounced on by a small group of users with questions prying into the personal details of my relationship with Occam, bringing up things about it that should have stayed private. It really should come as no surprise that this reception caused me to lose interest in these articles for months at a time, and devote my energies elsewhere at Wikipedia where I knew they'd be more appreciated.

As I pointed out in my evidence mathsci was the one who first started treating me this way, and until his topic ban he did it more than anyone. It was part of the overall pattern of behavior (incivility and personal attacks) that caused his ban. During the case I was hoping the arbitrators would do something to keep the others from continuing to emulate his behavior, but the case didn't address that issue. Maybe something can be done about it now.

Some of the people who copied mathsci's behavior toward me in the past are doing almost the same thing now, but the situation has 2 big differences now. First of all I'm not following Occam anymore, or taking his lead in any respect. Secondly, in the past I was prevented from contributing in any meaningful way by this hostility, but now I'm actively engaged in helping to improve the articles, and most of the others currently involved seem to appreciate my participation. This is why I won't allow myself to be driven away as easily as before. It can't be good for the encyclopedia to allow editors who aren't contributing to a group of articles to run off someone who is, so I'm not going to give into your and Muntuwandi's efforts to do this unless arbcom decides I have to. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 03:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to aprock

Aprock, I'm not sure if you think this is a problem, but I'll address it as though you do: Jensen's Clocking the Mind is the only book specifically about mental chronometry that's been published in the last 20 years. And it doesn't even mention race differences. From this book I added only historical information relating to early RT testing. You're expecting too much if you want a balanced and informative article on mental chronometry that doesn't mention Jensen, since regardless of your opinion on him, he's the most prolific modern researcher that there is on MC. I have several older books and papers in possession currently that I'm hoping to use to improve this article soon, like stuff by Carroll, but unfortunately this current case is eating up a lot of my time and energy.

I honestly can't believe that even my edits about the history of MC are being nitpicked now. People can't assume good faith about even this? Maybe things haven't improved here as much as I thought. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 00:01, 12 September 2010 (UTC) reply

I'd like to point out here that I wish the arbitrators would see the distinction between my behavior on these articles before and after the arb case. I am willing to admit that before arbitration I was not participating in these articles independently from Occam. When I commented on these articles at all I was following him around, watching what he was involved in. My involvement here changed for two reasons after the arb case. First of all, with Occam banned supporting him isn't acceptable, so in order to contribute here I need to stand on my own two feet. I mentioned the improved editing environment as the other reason for this, but to be honest, there’s also a more specific reason... I was a bit afraid of mathsci when he was here.

I find it really discouraging how my behavior in these articles before the arb case is continuously brought up as evidence that I can't edit here independently of Occam, as though nothing has changed about my editing here since then. If there are any lingering similarities between my style and his from when I used to follow him around, I'm confident those will disappear quickly if they haven't already. I'm also totally confident I'll be able to avoid the mistakes Occam made that resulted in his topic ban if given the chance. Isn't giving editors a chance in this respect the whole point of WP:ROPE? - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 05:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply

In light of Muntuwandi's last post above, I would like the arbitrators to consider whether what he's doing here (and at SPI... and at the arbitration enforcement board...) is a form of harassment. This is getting pretty extreme: even though no one has yet made a decision that I'm a sock, he's already referring to my edits as what "Captain Occam seems to be hoping" as if I'm nothing. Looking at his contributions [39], I see that over 90% of his involvement in these articles since the arbcom case has been for the sole purpose of trying to get rid of me. Is it healthy for these articles to include an editor whose only goal here is to get rid of another editor? - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 07:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Weiji and comments on recent conduct

Paleontology articles do not require anywhere close to the level of discussion that R&I articles do. Additionally, I've been working on an illustration for Concavenator recently, and that takes a lot of time - most of my paleo energy has gone into that lately. (Paleo articles, by the way, are almost always based on primary sources for newly-described information and species, since it's often years before secondary sources begin to cover them - this is not new, nor is it a problem.)

The longer this amendment thread sits here, the more I think the real nature of this situation becomes apparent. A couple days ago Maunus (an administrator who usually disagreed with Occam) invited me to propose a draft for how to improve the "in biomedicine" section of the Race (classification of humans) article. As soon as I posted my draft there, Muntuwandi - who had not commented on this article in several months, and had not edited it since 2009 - immediately showed up and left this comment. The comment was then removed by Maunus. Maunus and I both tried to discuss this with Muntuwandi in his user talk, where Muntuwandi stated that he opposed my draft simply because I was the person proposing it: "From my experience interacting with Captain Occam, I believe it is within reason to be concerned if he or his associates choose to make any major changes to race related articles." The only other editors who expressed an opinion about my draft, Maunus and Terra Novus, both approve of it. Neither of them were allies of Occam while he was editing these articles.

I'm still not edit warring, tag-teaming, or making false claims of consensus, which are the things for which Occam was topic banned. And the vast majority of Muntuwandi's involvement in Wikipedia is still devoted to opposing me - even following me to articles I'm trying to contribute to that he hasn't touched in a good while. Several editors who generally disagreed with Occam, like Maunus and Aprock, seem to think I'm valuable. But among the few editors who have disagreed with both me and Occam, the attitude is to try and discredit any opinions and contributions I offer by equating me with him, even when the contributions are perfectly fine. In the case of both Muntuwandi and Weiji, I am far from the only editor who disagrees with them: Maunus and Vecrumba obviously have a problem with Muntuwandi's behavior (see the discussion in Muntuwandi's user talk that Vecrumba linked to), and in this discussion three other editors (Victor Chmara, Moxy and Dbachmann) all accused Weiji of POV-pushing on these articles. Where's the evidence for Weiji's claim that I'm engaging in "a pattern of editor conduct indistinguishable from Captain Occam’s," other than the fact that I disagree with him in areas where Occam probably would, and several other editors do as well?

Most of the accusations of POV-pushing and incivility from neutral editors on these articles are directed at Muntuwandi and Weiji, not me. I'm starting to think this whole issue isn't about meatpuppetry at all. It's about Muntuwandi and Weiji wanting to get rid of me - an easy target - so they can push their POVs more easily.

It can't possibly be a coincidence that the two editors involved in these articles that are trying to get me topic-banned are the only two whom neutral editors have accused of POV-pushing and incivility since the proposal of this amendment. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 02:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Weiji's new comment is probably the best demonstration so far of the purpose of this thread. This is obviously a content dispute, but he's still appealing to arbcom in hope that they'll get rid of the editor who disagrees with him.

If you look at the discussion Weiji linked to, you'll see that what actually happened is that he made a large edit without inciting discussion, which involved removing all of the positive or neutral links on Lynn, and leaving only the highly negative ones (such as the ones that call him a racist) and adding another negative one. [40] I made a partial revert of his edit, and posted on the talk page saying that we should discuss these changes and add them back one at a time, after which he immediately reinstated his edit without waiting for any discussion. [41] In the discussion on the talk page, Maunus eventually pointed out that the all of links critical of Lynn which Weiji had kept or added had all of the same WP:EL problems that the ones Weiji had removed, and removed those also.

The book Weiji added to "further reading," which refers to Lynn's research as "scientific racism," Weiji has posted on EIGHT talk pages, giving it effusive praise and suggesting that further edits to all of these articles ought to be based on this book. [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] The book is a reliable source, but it's also strongly opinionated and it should seem obvious that not everyone would agree with rewriting all of these articles based on it.

Whether Weiji is right or wrong to want this, what matters here is that he and Muntuwandi shouldn't be trying to win a content dispute by getting arbcom to eliminate their opposition. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 22:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vecrumba

I've already commented that this sort of painful prolonging of the arbitration (now seeming more like insistence) is unhelpful. Were this two or three months down the line and Ferahgo were employing disruptive tactics or questionable sources—regardless of likeness to Occam—then if that's the case it can simply be dealt with. Until then I am content to allow Ferahgo to establish their own edit history. As someone who, myself, was attacked simply for showing up at R&I and related and had derision, aspersions and innuendo heaped on my head, whether for no good reason or based on unrelated prior Wikipedia conflicts, this on the face of it looks, smells, and tastes too familiar for my comfort, regardless of anyone's best intentions here. I have already stated pretty much the same at Muntuwandi's talk. (Please leave that section in place for the duration of the proceedings here, thank you!) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 14:28, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

P.S. To Ferahgo's above, I respect WeijiBaikeBianji's editorial opinion as informed and non-extremist; "everyone except WeijiBaikeBianji agreed" is not an optimal representation of consensus, but that is a discussion not for here. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 14:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

@Muntuwandi ("If Captain Occam had been observing his topic ban like Mathsci or David.Kane, I wouldn't have filed this request."): Guilty until proven innocent is premature at this point is my only point. The only problem I've seen at the topic is that editors are still a bit on edge given the recent and ugly conflict; even if I accept that you may be completely correct, you are only honing that edge at the moment as there's not enough edit history to do much of anything else. If there isn't sufficient edit history, you can make someone out to be anyone you want them to be. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 16:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Tim Song

Once again we focus too much on the users and not the conduct. So what if F. is editing on Occam's behalf? If there is disruption, it can be dealt with under the discretionary sanctions; if there is no disruption, what is there to complain about? We are spending a lot of time and energy here, and what will we gain from this? The ability to avoid the initial disruption needed for imposition of discretionary sanctions - if the disruption ever happens? Doesn't sound like a good deal to me, at all. T. Canens ( talk) 16:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by other aprock

To the extent that Ferahgo sticks to content issues, and is willing to read and quote sources her activity is productive. To the extent that she takes a revert first, then discuss non-content issues, her activity is counter-productive. Currently, there is a little of both, but not enough of either to make any strong conclusions. The biggest potential disruption is that Ferahgo will take on the role of gate keeper, forcing everyone to route all edits through her. This isn't a problem at the moment. aprock ( talk) 17:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

I'll just note here that Feragho has taken some time to rework Mental chronometry primarily to add Arthur Jensen related content. aprock ( talk) 23:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Captain Occam

There are two important points here, both of which have already been made by other editors. The first is what Ferahgo pointed out in her response to Shell: Ferahgo’s current editing on these articles is no more similar to mine than it is to numerous other editors. Her editing style was much more similar to mine in the past, when I wasn’t topic banned and it therefore didn’t matter whether we edited these articles with the same objectives. But I think she’s made it abundantly clear by this point that she’s capable of editing these articles independently of me, now that my topic ban requires this from her if she’s going to participate.

And the other important point is the one made by Tim Song. The purpose of my topic ban was in order to prevent me from continuing to disrupt these articles by edit warring, tag-teaming, and making false claims of consensus. Ferahgo has done none of these things, and none of the other editors involved in these articles have had any problem with her behavior. At the same time, she’s been making a large number of constructive edits to articles in this topic area, particularly the Mental chronometry article. If she is to be topic banned on the suspicion that she’s a sockpuppet or meatpuppet, this will be an example of enforcing the letter of the law (if she actually is violating the letter of the law) in a way that completely contradicts the spirit of it. Although the purpose of my topic ban was to prevent me from continuing to cause disruption on these articles, the only effect that extending it to Ferahgo will have is to lose a constructive and civil contributor to these articles, who has not been accused of disruption by anyone other than Muntuwandi.

I think everyone who’s actively involved in these articles wants to put the arbitration behind them. I also want to put it behind myself, but Muntuwandi’s constant harping on it is making this very difficult. Other than his three recent attempts to get Ferahgo banned, Muntuwandi’s only involvement in these articles since the end of the arbitration case is his recent revert of a year’s worth of edits on the Race and genetics article with no prior discussion. One effect of his doing this was to once again remove a chart from this article that he edit warred to remove a year ago (described in my arbitration evidence here), which resulted in him being placed under a month of 0RR on this article. When the only thing Muntuwandi is currently doing on these articles is repeating the behavior for which he was previously sanctioned, his seeking of sanctions against a constructive editor who happens to disagree with him seems completely disingenuous. The problem here is not anything that Ferahgo is doing; it’s Muntuwandi’s repeated drama-mongering. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 23:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Muntuwandi

GWH placed me under a month 0RR on Race and genetics for going straight to AN/I about a conflict that I should have first tried to resolve somewhere like WQA, and I’ve avoided making this mistake again after being sanctioned for it. Your own 0RR was due to your continued removing of the image based not on anything about the image itself, but based on what you perceived as my motives for adding it, which in turn was based on something I’d written outside of Wikipedia. You continued trying to remove it regardless of how I changed it to address your objections, including when I read the relevant part of Cavalli-Sforza’s book and modified the image to closely match the original source, as well as after Varoon Arya created a new version of the image in an attempt to satisfy you. Yet despite being given a clear message from GWH that your doing this was not acceptable, you’re continuing to claim that “The issue of the image has not been resolved”, reverting the article back a year in order to remove the image yet again, and now are once again repeating the same justification for removing it that resulted in your original sanction.

Do you not see how bizarre this is? Your obsession with removing any and every form of this image has now lasted approximately a year, and since the end of the arbitration case this has been the entire extent of your involvement in these articles. And now, it’s resulting in an amendment request because someone felt that your reverting the article back a year in order to restore a version without the image was not a reasonable thing to do. Recidivism, article ownership, assuming bad faith… there are too many problems with what you’re doing here for me to cover them all. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 03:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

I don't think there's nothing you can say here at the moment that will diffuse matters, unfortunately. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 04:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Additional comments

I think it needs to be pointed out how predictable the pattern of comments here has been. The four editors arguing in favor of a topic ban—Muntuwandi, Marginalia, WeijiBaikeBianji, and Mathsci—are not uninvolved in this dispute, nor are they neutral. All four of them were involved in the arbitration case, and for all four of them the overwhelming focus of their involvement in it was to try and obtain sanctions against me and the other editors who tended to agree with me. This is most apparent from looking at the arguments they presented on the “evidence” page. On the other hand all of the editors who didn’t display this us-vs-them attitude during the arbitration case, or weren’t involved in it at all, are opposed to a topic ban. This includes Tim Song, Maunus, and Vecrumba.

The editors who have a personal stake in getting rid of Ferahgo don’t actually outnumber the neutral editors, at least not on the articles or their talk pages. But what happens in discussions like this one is that when anyone just cares about improving the quality of the articles, they’re not going to care enough about what happens to Ferahgo to comment here more than once or twice, if they comment at all. Since she’s relatively new to these articles, she doesn’t have a network of supporters whom she can rely on to defend her here. But on the other hand, the editors who are devoted to eliminating as much of their opposition as possible are all going to make sure they comment here and accuse her of wrongdoing, and (in some cases) continue to make additional accusations if she tries to reply to them. It looks like in her own comments here Ferahgo has been trying to keep up with all of what the editors who want her banned have been saying about her, but when she’s basically on her own against all four of them, trying to do this is pretty futile.

What I find both interesting and discouraging is how this is apparently affecting the opinions of arbitrators. Kirill was the first arbitrator to comment here, and when he left his comment stating that a topic ban is unnecessary because Ferahgo isn’t causing any disruption, all of the same facts were available about her that are available now. (The issue of possible meatpuppetry and WP:SHARE had already been discussed both at the arbitration enforcement board, and during the arbitration itself.) But as soon as the editors who want Ferahgo banned showed up in this discussion and began to dominate it, every arbitrator who commented after that point supported a topic ban for her. Since none of the subsequent comments from Muntuwandi, Marginalia, WeijiBaikeBianji, and Mathsci involved any evidence that the arbitrators hadn’t seen already, what else could have changed to turn the arbitrators in favor of a topic ban? The only thing Ferahgo has been doing during this time is making constructive edits and suggestions for the articles, which are appreciated by most of the people involved in them.

I’m sure most arbitrators are aware that one of the negative aspects of Wikipedia’s reputation is that on articles on controversial topics, the viewpoint which wins out is usually the one favored by the largest number of editors involved in the article, regardless of whether or not this viewpoint is the most prominent one in reliable sources. Other people have told me this numerous times both before and after I became involved here, and during my involvement I’ve come to understand why it’s the case. A cabal of like-minded editors is always capable of defeating a lone user in an edit war, and will usually also win out at AN/I. (Consensus is supposed to be more than just a vote, but when 10 or 15 editors are clamoring for sanctions against a lone editor and completely dominating the discussion, it’s not often that the closing admin will base their decision on something other than what the vast majority of people commenting seem to want.) Until now, I had hoped that ArbCom was the one part of Wikipedia that wasn’t susceptible to this, but it looks like maybe I was wrong. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 00:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply

@Roger Davies: I won’t deny that I’m involved also, which is why I haven’t participated in this thread nearly as much as Muntuwandi, Marginalia and Ferahgo herself have. I’m sure arbitrators could have predicted that I wouldn’t support a topic ban for someone I’m friends with in real life, so I didn’t expect my opinion that it’s unwarranted to have very much influence on the outcome of this thread. But the same principle should also apply to the other editors who have been heavily involved in seeking sanctions for whoever disagrees with them, and whose reactions here are every bit as predictable for this reason. Right now, these editors are the source of 100% of the arguments for a topic ban—if there are uninvolved and neutral editors who would support a topic ban (as Shell suggests), they aren’t commenting here. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 02:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to new comments from Maunus and Muntuwandi

Maunus’s updated comment expresses a very reasonable concern that with so few editors who are willing to edit from the hereditarian perspective, there’s a danger that the weight of the articles might shift towards the opposite extreme. I don’t think Muntuwandi’s reassurance that he and WeijiBaikeBianji are as capable as anyone else of preserving the neutrality of these articles is consistent with their editing patterns since the end of the arbitration case. I’m going to provide a sampling of their edits since then to show why I think Maunus’s concern about this is a reasonable one:

• [50] Muntuwandi reverts the Race and genetics article back a year without any discussion. When this was undone by an IP editor, the one-year revert was reinstated by WeijiBaikeBianji, still without any discussion. Muntuwandi is currently under an a revert restriction which limits him to one revert per day, so this is an example of him and WBB tag-teaming in order to get around the restrictions on Muntuwandi’s account.

• [51] [52] [53] [54] WBB renames four IQ-related articles without any discussion. Less than an hour later, he suggests that Race and intelligence be renamed in order to match the names of these other articles that he’d just renamed. When Ferahgo mentions Fertility and intelligence as an article that’s still named in a way that’s consistent with Race and intelligence’s original title, around three hours later WBB renames that one also.

• Three days later, after several editors have already expressed a problem with WBB’s undiscussed renames of IQ-related articles, he renames Race and genetics to “Genetics and the decline of race”, again without any discussion. This caught the attention of Dbachmann, an administrator who sometimes watches these articles, who described WBB’s behavior as “a rather crude example of pov-pushing by article title.”

• [55] [56] Two examples of WBB selectively adding and removing links from articles about researchers who favor the hereditarian perspective. The issue here is not that the links he removed necessarily belonged there, but that both of these edits had the overall effect of removing every link which described these researchers favorably, and keeping only links which were critical of them, some of which were no more relevant to the articles than the links he’d removed. When Ferahgo reverted one of these edits due to her believing it to be an NPOV issue, WBB immediately reinstated his edit without waiting for any discussion.

• [57] [58] [59] Another example of Muntuwandi and WeijiBaikeBianji tag-teaming in order to get around Muntuwandi’s revert restriction on these articles. Note that WeijiBaikeBianji reinstated Muntuwandi’s edit exactly twelve minutes after it was reverted by someone who disagreed with it. Also notice that in the discussion about this, Weiji has not responded to requests that he explain in what way he thinks the content he removed misrepresents the source, and Muntuwandi has insisted on making personal comments about other editors rather than discussing content. [60] [61] [62] [63]. What he says in the third diff is particularly pertinent—although Maunus had already asked him in his user talk to stop doing this, Muntuwandi is stating that he feels no need to follow Maunus’s advice.

I would have hoped that with discretionary sanctions authorized on these articles, admins would be do something about this sort of thing when it occurs, but no uninvolved admins seem to be paying attention to what’s happening on these articles. Ferahgo has asked two administrators (GeorgeWilliamHerbert and Dbachmann) in their user talk if there’s any way to get uninvolved admins to pay attention to these articles, but neither of them replied to her question.

There aren’t as many examples of edits from Muntuwandi that could be considered POV-pushing as there are from WeijiBaikeBianji, and this is partly because Muntuwandi has made very few content edits in this topic area since the end of the arbitration case. The issue in his case is the lengths that he’s gone to in his effort to drive off his opposition. Ferahgo already described one recent example of this in her own statement, but Muntuwandi’s last comment here accusing me of evading my ban on the Race (classification of humans) article is another example. Not only have I not participated in this article since the end of the arbitration case; I also made it clear on the talk page ( here) that I intended to voluntarily disengage from this article after my topic ban, even though I didn’t think my topic ban would cover it. The argument that resulted from me saying this was because several editors had a problem with me regarding this as a voluntary restriction. I’ve pointed this out to Muntuwandi before, so I know he’s aware of it; as far as I can tell, he’s claiming that I evaded my ban on this article just because it makes his case against Ferahgo look stronger.

The overall attitude I’m seeing from Muntuwandi and WeijiBaikeBianji is a lot of eagerness to get rid of the editors who tend to disagree with their point of view, combined with eagerness to make the articles conform to their points of view when most of the editors who would oppose this are out of the way. This is something that I think arbitrators ought to consider if they’re wondering why Ferahgo’s activity on the articles rapidly increased after the end of the arbitration case. In addition to Mathsci’s topic ban removing the main barrier to her involvement there, with me and David.Kane also topic banned she was one of the only people left on these articles with the knowledge and motivation to oppose behavior there that I think can be accurately described as POV-pushing.

Over the past several months, there has been an overall trend on these articles where one way or another, more and more of the people who edit from a neutral or hereditarian perspective have been driven off. Varoon Arya [64] and Distributivejustice [65] both said that this was because they couldn’t tolerate how others were treating them. Bpesta22 never specifically stated why he left, but one of his last comments before disappearing complained about “the treatment one gets here”. Even though topic-banning me, David.Kane and Mikemikev may have been for the best overall, it also had the unintentional side effect of reinforcing this trend—the three of us were the three most active remaining editors who tended to edit from a hereditarian perspective, while Mathsci was only one of a great many whose editing was primarily from the environmental perspective.

Maunus, who seems to care a lot about the neutrality of these articles, has recently indicated in his user talk that he might be quitting the articles out of frustration soon also. The more people like him leave, the more difficult it gets for people like this who remain, because the editors who are devoted to driving off whoever disagrees with them will be focusing their efforts at this on a smaller and smaller group of editors. It also makes the editors who’ve previously quit out of frustration less likely to return, because they’ll know that if they ever do they’re likely to be treated even worse than they had been originally. As arbitrators decide what to do here, I think they should consider how a topic ban for Ferahgo would encourage this trend, and how this trend may ultimately affect the articles. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 21:51, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Updated to add: Ferahgo’s comment here seems to confirm that what I stated above is a major reason for her recent involvement in these articles. Arbitrators should take note of this. The central motivation here does not appear to be meatpuppetry or proxy editing; it’s the fear that the articles’ neutrality will be skewed in an environmental direction now that almost all of the editors who’ve cared about preventing this have either quit or been topic banned, and discretionary sanctions are not having any effect in preventing POV-pushing on these articles. Maunus appears to share this concern of hers, even though he personally disagrees with the hereditarian perspective, so I think it’s clearly a reasonable concern to have. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 20:29, 6 October 2010 (UTC) reply

@Slp1: I would like to point out that I don’t feel I’ve been given the opportunity to disengage from these articles. What I mean by this is that almost as soon as my topic ban was implemented, and I began editing in other areas, I’ve been faced with a repeated series of accusations from Muntuwandi that one way or another I’m not following my topic ban—first at the arbitration enforcement board, then at SPI, and now here. All three of the three most recent comments in my user talk are from him complaining about this. In most cases, my reason for involvement is not only for the sake of the articles, or for Ferahgo’s sake—if the SPI had ruled that Ferahgo was a sockpuppet of mine I probably would have been blocked as a sockpuppeteer, and in this thread Mathsci is suggesting additional sanctions against me.

I completely agree that it’s a problem for me to be involved here this heavily, and I would really like not to be. But to say that the effort to get Ferahgo topic banned is an appropriate response to my involvement here is to confuse cause and effect. The effort to get her topic banned, the repeated messages about this in my user talk, and the related efforts to implement additional sanctions against me are what’s causing this. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 22:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Slp1 2: I don’t think you understand the reason why I’m bringing this up. All of the behavior I’ve described here is from after the case ended, so the goal here isn’t to argue about the validity of the existing arbcom decision, which obviously couldn’t have considered things that hadn’t occurred yet. The relevant question is whether going forward, Maunus is right that editors like Ferahgo are necessary in order to prevent the articles from being excessively slanted in an environmental direction, or whether Muntuwandi is right that he and WeiiBaikeBianji can preserve the neutrality of these articles without any help. Based on the examples of Muntuwandi’s and WeiiBaikeBianji’s recent behavior that I provided above, I think it’s clear that Maunus is right.

As I said, it would be vastly preferable if none of this were necessary. When threads like this aren’t going on, Ferahgo is contributing to the articles in a way that most other people find productive, and I’m focusing my attention on unrelated articles, which I think is the way things should be. But when editors are trying to obtain sanctions for her and additional sanctions for me, everyone involved gets distracted from what they ought to be doing and sucked into this drama. Any arbitration remedy needs to address the underlying issues that exist on these articles, not just the symptoms of the amendment thread itself. And those issues include Muntuwandi’s obsession with eliminating his opposition from these articles (which continues to make up the majority of his activity since the end of the arbitration case) and WeiiBaikeBianji’s apparent POV-pushing. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 00:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Maunus

The only thing I find weird is that while Ferahgo claims that she is painfully aware that according to WP:SHARE she can be considered the same account as CaptainOccam is she edits with the same objectives as he did, and that she therefore should avoid editing patterns similar to his, but she has chosen to manifest this awareness by entering into the same debate in which Occam is topic banned, arguing from the same pov as he did. This seems contradictory to me. Now, I didn't advocate a topicban for Occam and will not advocate one for Ferahgo untill such a point that she might demonstrate that she is not interested in collaborative editing. However the discrepancy between her stated awarenes of WP:SHARE and her actions jars in my ears, and I would like her to elaborate on how, now that she has chosen to emulate Occams choice of editing topics, she is going to avoid repeating his mistakes. ·Maunus·ƛ· 00:06, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

update I don't think Ferahgo can be said to display battlegroud behaviour in her recent activity at R&I related articles. If she does it has clearly been from frustration by the way other editors have been treating her. She does edit from the pro-hereditarian viewpoint, which she apparently shares with Occam to a large extent and knows as much about. This is the only worry I have on grounds of principle I think it is an unfortunate situation that of two editors editing from the same computer on the same articles one is topic banned and the other isn't. This does open possibilities for gaming and loophole surfing. However I agree with Tim Song that this problem is best solved by being pragmatic about it and saying, "so what if Ferahgo is really proxy editing for Occam, as long as she is not displaying his behavioural problems as well." Occam wasn't banned because of his POV but because of his editing behaviour. Furthermore since David Kane and Occam have been topic banned I find myself feeling forced to make pro-hereditarian edits, simply because this viewpoint is now very weakly represented (among editors, not in the articles), I don't enjoy this as it is not a view I personally entertain. I would urge all editors to be mindful of balance and forexample when cleaning up articles not only remove the dubious or badly written material with which they disagree but also dubious and badly written material with which they agree and try to move towards a synthesis instead of just shifting the weight towards the other extreme. ·Maunus·ƛ· 23:47, 2 October 2010 (UTC) reply

@Michael Price - It is a pretty standard image, what made it misleading was the context. Cavalli-Sforza is qute upfront in saying that the tree does not illustrate "races" but bio-geographical genetic clusters. When taken out of that context as an illustration of genetic differences between races that is misleading. However you are right it is a content POV issue - but it is an that has been grossly aggravated by substandard editing behaviour from editors on both sides of the dispute. Please do read up on the entire case when commenting. The world is more often than not more complex than what it looks like at a quick glance. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:30, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Michael Price: Occam and David Kane and Mathsci have been topic banned because arbcom saw them as having a general pattern of problematic behaviour - not based on that one edit. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:58, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

@MichaelPrice: We are all aware that there has been a long time problematic editing environment at Race related articles - we have gone through a several months long ArbCom case that attests to that. You are only pointing out what is obvious to everyone who has been involved: Race related articles have been a battleground for the last several months, this is what we are working towards changing. This amendment case I guess is part of that process. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

comment to Captain Occam's comment:I want to make clear that the reason I am likely to stop watching race related articles in the near future is not due to frustration with the the editors, but simply with the long and tediouis process of arbitration during which progress on the topic has been stalled. ·Maunus·ƛ· 22:18, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

COMMENT I think ArbCom should strongly consider extending a topic ban to User:Muntuwandi. The user was displaying behavioural issues on race related articles before including Editwarring and Battleground mentality. (S)he wasn't made a party to the original case because he was observing a "voluntary topic ban" and was not editing the articles at the time when the ArbCom procedure was begun. S/He has apparently found the topicbanning of Captain Occam and David Kane to be an occasion to return to editing the articles, but as far as I can discern the original behavioural problems including edit warring, battleground mentality and a general lack of respecting other editors personal dignity are still present. I think it would be a good idea to pre-empt problems at the article by letting Muntuwandi edit elsewhere. I am not myself going to campaign more for this proposal, as I have decided to take an editing vacation from the Race and intelligence topic, but I think ArbCom should review Muntuwandi's recent behaviour and consider whether a topic ban would be likely to improve the editing environment. Best. ·Maunus·ƛ· 03:10, 7 October 2010 (UTC) reply

@Muntuwandi Contrary to what you suggest being in "good rapport" with other editors is not considered a crim at wikipedia, it is rather considered a requisite for being able to edit here in our collaborative encyclopedia - "being in good rapport" even with editors with whom one disagrees is established as a fundamental value in our policies WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. That you would use the fact that I insist on being on good terms and enter into mature discussions even with those with whom I do not agree as an argument against me goes right to the core of what is wrong with your editing behaviour and philosophy. That you would choose to disregard the advice I have given you abut your behaviour in the past because I am not "uninvolved" is similarly disturbing. This is a clear case of battleground mentality where "those who aren't with me are against me" in your optics. This is not the way a collaborative encyclopedia works or can work. ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:01, 7 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Professor marginalia

I've been too busy in the last few weeks to edit or follow the latest developments closely, but these assurances that Feragho and Captain Occam can be viewed as two distinct and independent accounts are not credible. They are partners in real life, and the only involvement of Feragho's in these involved articles prior to arbitration was to show up out of nowhere to "vote" or otherwise lend support to Captain Occam in various disputes, with he himself showing up right behind her to pointedly underscore her support to lend weight to his position. This edit, for example, was made to Ferahgo at a time when she'd only eight edits total in the entire encyclopedia, 5 of them minor edits--none of the edits were yet in the field of race or intelligence. Prior to arbitration, Ferahgo's only editing related to the involved articles followed Captain Occam's addressing her as an involved editor on her talk page. Then for the next 6 months her only involvement was over the course of about 10 edits to lend him backup in a single article (Race and intelligence) and in dispute resolutions on various other boards. But during, and now following, the arbitration in which Captain Occam was ultimately banned, Ferahgo was taken brand-new interest in at least seven more race/intelligence related articles. One of them is Race and genetics, never before edited by Ferahgo, yet she writes, here of content that she "remembers being there last October" -- uncanny the déjà vu to one of Captain Occam's disputes there then. I'd have hoped that with the degree of disruptive gaming going on over the past year that arbitration would bring an end to it. Professor marginalia ( talk) 19:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Ferahgo-the fact that often I have other demands on my time does not render me an "inactive" editor who doesn't "care about the quality of the articles" or that I am concerned only about "continuing the petty drama" of the arb comm case. The arb comm was as much about ending "petty drama" as anything else. And I steer as far clear of "petty drama" as I can, but to justify spending time on the arbitration means I won't watch idly by when its outcomes completely unravel via gaming. This means I won't go without commenting should spouses, roommates, partners, parents, children, siblings, friends, co-workers and other "stand-ins" assume a curious and intense new interest for editing just as article bans go into effect. It's not me who is the source of the drama here. My efforts are focused here on ending it. Professor marginalia ( talk) 23:06, 11 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Ferahgo 2: Re: WP:ROPE--a) It's an essay b) You're ignoring the section "When not to use" which advises not to make such concessions against "Banned users – users blocked by community discussion or ArbCom". You asked now why your past behavior is relevant--it's because your edits then were challenged as meatpuppetry, and you and Captain Occam variously deflected, rebuffed and even attacked those who revealed your closeness irl. Now that he is banned from editing those articles, you've redoubled your efforts to edit them in his absence, and the pattern repeats itself.

Because you continue to profess how remiss other editors are to doubt you, it's relevant to lay the story all out once again. You opened your accounts minutes apart, you edit from the same IP ranges, you came to the disputes following Captain Occam's recruitment, your entrée was limited to that of backing him up in disputes, and both you and he took subtle but conscious steps to "keep up appearances" of independence. When allegations of meatpuppetry were raised, you vanished for 6 months, only to resurface in support of Captain Occam against accusations of tag-teaming and SPA: [66] (Captain Occam was later to be officially sanctioned for those same abuses by the arb comm.) When your tiny edit history raised eyebrows then, [67] you quietly slipped away from the dispute and your editing of unrelated articles soon jolted, a tripling in just 2 weeks of your previous year's output. You then resumed backing up Captain Occam in disputes, essentially forcing other editors to take a closer look and probe deeper into the WP:MEAT question. Your support on Captain Occam's unblock request to Jimbo [68] prompted Hipocrite to question your intentions to self-disclose your relationship when backing up Captain Occam in disputes. Your reply, "I think it's excessive to mention it in every comment," was both disingenuous and dismissive of a legitimate concern--in fact you had never before mentioned it on the wiki until after he'd posed the question to you on your talk page, and even after you did do so you downplayed it as merely "knowing" him and "irrelevant". You also continued, "but I don't try to keep it a secret and will answer honestly if asked." [69] However several days later in yet another forum where you popped in to back him up, you were less than forthcoming again, forcing the issue one more time. When Hipocrite then asked you quite directly, you and Captain Occam both tried to elevate it as a personal attack and an "outing". [70] [71] Much as you are now, claiming "harassment" by Wapondaponda.

Today you concede, "I am willing to admit that before arbitration I was not participating in these articles independently from Occam. When I commented on these articles at all I was following him around, watching what he was involved in." But this wasn't made clear when commenting on Captain Occam's behalf in content disputes, further exacerbating disruptions. You go on to say, "with Occam banned supporting him isn't acceptable, so in order to contribute here I need to stand on my own two feet." And as should have been clear to you from very early on, it was inappropriate not to be "standing on your own two feet" with each and every edit anywhere, anytime in the encyclopedia. The past year's efforts to dodge or diminish valid concerns about proxy editing, including attacks against those trying to pin down what's going on, will of course cast a certain light on your words and actions today. So the argument, "Yes, my past role was limited to being Captain's loyal helpmeet in the articles, but since he's been banned you are out of order to think that of me now" doesn't hold water with me. One reason things got so out of hand in the first place were dodgy shenanigans and skewed priorities, and I don't see how turning a blind eye now will shape things up. Professor marginalia ( talk) 23:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Response to Ferahgo 3: I think we're on opposite sides of a gulf here. From your point of view, Captain Occam's acknowledgment that you two "knew each other" in real life on Captain Occam's talk page entitled the two of you to put all suspicions and questions about this to bed once and for all, in any and all disputes in wikipedia, in all forums, for ever after. And you expect us to understand his words are on behalf of the both of you, end of subject, while all the rest his and your editing are to be viewed as "independent". From your point of view, our concern should be limited to whether or not you've been faithful to the letter of policy.

While from my point of view, these articles have been plagued by gaming for quite some time. Once meat-puppet concerns were raised both you and Captain Occam should have become well aware that your relationship was of valid concern. Rather than pushing back, you might have realized that you both need to explore your interests at wikipedia completely independently or be prepared to disclose your relationship to fellow editors when lending support to each other in articles or disputes. And to realize that one invites "prying" if they don't "get it" and press on. From my point of view, the concern is that you, like Captain Occam demonstrated to me when I first came to the dispute, fixate on how out-play policy, via hair-splitting comments and policy, and canvassing "back-up" to help you do so. And from my pov I've invested too much time to this dispute just to diagnose and document one aspect of the problem to justify watching it repeat itself right under my nose. Professor marginalia ( talk) 05:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by WeijiBaikeBianji

• Comment by other editor WeijiBaikeBianji: this looks like a meat-puppet to me. Even though my user name is mentioned in this discussion, I somehow was not aware that this discussion was occurring. What I see on the article talk pages of several articles that are directly included in the recent ArbCom case discretionary sanctions is a pattern of editor conduct indistinguishable from Captain Occam's now occurring from the keyboard of Ferahgo the Assassin. Checking Ferahgo's contribs, it appears that her participation in race and intelligence topics far exceeds participation in paleontology topics, contrary to the advice she received from members of the Arbitration Committee. (And I note that several of the paleontology article edits consist of inserting statements from primary sources, perhaps unreplicated primary sources, rather than from Wikipedia preferred reliable secondary sources.) I see a lot of the same, old same-old that I saw before the decision in the recent ArbCom case. Assuming good faith, I'm happy to have any editor of any point of view request that editors refer to sources and back up content edits with citations to those sources. But I will not allow Wikipedia articles on the topics recently covered by the ArbCom case to become battlegrounds that keep us busier looking for phony "consensus" on the talk pages than doing substantive article edits based on recent, reliable secondary sources. The articles covered by the case have been in terrible shape for a long time because many POV-pushers who read blogs more than they read the professional literature refuse to believe what the current professional literature says and actively revert sourced content. The topic sanctions allow administrators to act with due discretion to keep single-purpose accounts from dominating those articles. I hope that administrators will not shy from using their mops to clean up the mess, so that an improved editing environment brings about much improvement in all the related articles. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 23:30, 26 September 2010 (UTC) reply

• • Follow-up on disruptive edit by Ferahgo. Just today, Ferahgo made an edit [72] that reverted an edit of placing a highly reliable, well reviewed secondary source in a Further reading section (preparatory to using the source for article edits) and cleaning up the same article's external links section per WP:EL. Discussion of that series of edits can now be found on the article talk page, with participation by Ferahgo, me, an editor who participated in the recent ArbCom case (Maunus), and an editor unknown to me. I'm sure that Ferahgo considers her edit a good-faith effort to maintain what she regards as neutral point of view on Wikipedia. But after I spent time last week reviewing the external link policy (prompted by a question from another Wikipedian, as documented on my user talk page) and hours this week reading a lavishly documented source on the subject of the article in question (and other articles related to the ArbCom case), I can't help feeling that the edit was disruptive. Ferahgo pushed a point of view by that edit and did not uphold Wikipedia policy. Quite apart from the issue of meat-puppetry, the ArbCom decision was intended to leave in place a set of discretionary sanctions that would uphold Wikipedia policy and allow source-based improvements in the articles within the scope of the case. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 18:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC) reply

• • Question for Michael C. Price I get the impression that you haven't been following all the contribs of the various persons named here if you think the entire fuss is about that diagram. But while we are on the subject of what is "standard" in the literature, what sources do you recommend on the general subjects of anthropology, human biology, or race to show what current standard scholarly practice is in treating those issues? Perhaps before you see this reply, I will be traveling again to the largest academic research library in my state to pick up more books on those subjects. I am always eager to hear source suggestions from Wikipedians who know of reliable sources to share with other Wikipedians. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 16:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Reply to question from Michael C. Price As also answered by Maunus in his comment space here, what can be misleading about that image is the context in which it is brought into an article. What I have thought is misleading about the image is the representation that it is the last word on a subject that has seen quite a bit of research since the book in which Cavalli-Sforza published the results summarized by the image. That is why I ask about sources: I am, thus far, not seeing the Cavalli-Sforza image used in standard secondary sources on the subject as a conclusive statement on human "race" groups. Quite the contrary, I have from the keyboard of Cavalli-Sforza himself rejections of the race concept as a scientifically valid concept; images and charts from a variety of authors, who disagree with one another in whole or in part, on lineage relationships of various human populations; and varied detailed maps of the distribution of human genes that show that genes under selection pressure can occur in more than one lineage group, even if neutral polymorphisms can distinguish lineages. The overall literature is much more up-to-date and much more nuanced than that image, which is why Cavalli-Sforza himself does not simply reproduce that image in his latest book (which I have at hand as I type this). -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 17:49, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Thanks for the thoughtful comments by Slp1. I see that Slp1 noticed, before I did, the ridiculous comment by Captain Occam here. Captain Occam, who was properly topic-banned after a lengthy Arbitration Committee case in which he had ample opportunity to demonstrate what he has to contribute to Wikipedia, has the gall to suggest that I might endanger the neutrality of point of view on Wikipedia if I proceed to edit boldly on the basis of reliable sources. I took care before I did many article edits at all to let other Wikipedians know about valuable sources and to solicit all of them to suggest further sources to me. I did that during the discussion of the Arbitration Committee case and I continue to do that. (Indeed, I specifically invited Ferahgo to recommend sources for the source list, and Slp1 seemed to think that that was a helpful suggestion.) I discuss a lot with other editors before I edit. My edit count statistics show that I post to article talk pages more than I post to articles themselves, to date, although now I hope to change that balance to having more article edits. I mentioned in the ArbCom case file that I agreed with RegentsPark that POV-pushing by single-purpose accounts was violating the core Wikipedia principle of neutral point of view. (As I recall, and as seems to be confirmed by the diff, RegentsPark made his remark while commenting on the editorial behavior of Captain Occam.) While the case was still being decided, in the case file in full view of the Arbitration Committee, I forthrightly announced that I intended boldly to fix problems in the articles within the scope of the case as soon as the case was decided. (Yes, you saw a link to WP:BEBOLD with different link text in that diff. I know what the rules are here.) I have "not yet begun to" do that, to quote John Paul Jones. The current condition of most of the articles in the scope of the ArbCom case is not neutral point of view, because the articles have been skewed by poor sourcing and tendentious editing for a very long time. I am agreeable to working tirelessly and boldly to clean up a mess that others made before I became a Wikipedian. I am confident that there is no doubt in the scholarly community, as there should also be no doubt in the Wikipedia editing community, that the point of view preferred by Captain Occam and by Ferahgo the Assassin (and relentlessly pushed by them into Wikipedia article text) is not a point of view that would look "neutral" or "balanced" to most persons literate in English and especially not to most persons who are familiar with the research on IQ testing. (IQ testing is a subject on which I will be giving a public workshop presentation at a statewide meeting next month, as I have before and as I will again in Illinois early next year). Since everything that is being said here is once again in full view of the Arbitration Committee, and because I am possibly still the newest Wikipedian here, I call on the onlookers to give me a reality check: is it wrong, after traveling to a major academic library to find good sources (as I do every Sunday) and after actually reading those sources (I read Cavalli-Sforza 1994 the year it was published, from cover to cover, and have followed his subsequent writings with great interest) to then edit Wikipedia articles according to my best understanding of what reliable sources say? Is there some kind of rule against that? -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 02:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC) reply

General question for any administrator looking on: Isn't there now ample evidence here, from the keyboards of the involved persons, that discretionary sanctions from the recent ArbCom case should be applied to uphold Wikipedia neutral point of view core policy? -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 20:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Replying to Maunus's comment about Muntuwandi (Wapondaponda), I respectfully disagree. I think Muntuwandi's conduct on these articles has been informed by sources, aimed at fulfilling core Wikipedia policies, civil and helpful to other editors, and specifically helpful to other editors. Maunus expressed a concern about Muntuwandi not drafting a lot of new material of his own, but I have found his deletions of POV-pushing statements from the articles to be some of the best editing the articles have received in the last few months. I know the professionally published sources. The articles currently suffer from bad violations of Wikipedia neutral point of view because they are very poorly sourced. It is at least as necessary to omit passages that put undue weight on minority positions as it is to add passages that update the articles based on the latest research. I have worked in editorial offices before in two different countries. One of the most essential skills of a professional editor is chopping out words that don't belong in a manuscript. Muntuwandi does that boldly but thoughtfully. I think most editors who have edited those articles in the last year will be happy to work with him, and I am confident he will be a net contribution to better articles on that always contentious topic. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk) 05:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Mathsci

Some weeks ago an arbitrator suggested that I should comment here.

Captain Occam has disclosed on wikipedia that he cohabits with Ferahgo the Assassin and that she is his current girlfriend. He himself edits very little at the moment (he is sporadically writing a race-related article in his user space). Ferahgo the Assassin's editing in articles/talk pages covered by Captain Occam's topic ban does seem to have taken on the character of his editing, with the subject of dinosaurs now secondary. There are some editing traits of hers that can only be explained by meatpuppetry, most significantly her attitude towards other wikipedians (Georgewilliamherbert & Dbachmann as administrative wikifriends, WeijiBaikiBianji & Muntuwandi as disruptive opponents).

In her statements above, Ferahgo the Assassin has presented with considerable determination a multitude of constantly changing excuses and justifications, some of them stretching the limits of credibility. At the same time she and Captain Occam have displayed a total failure to take any notice of very clear and helpful advice offered to them by arbitrators here and elsewhere. On balance all the information so far available suggests that Ferahgo the Assassin has adopted an editing strategy, worked out in consultation with Captain Occam, to aid him in circumventing his topic ban. Mathsci ( talk) 05:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Captain Occam's girlfriend Ferahgo the Assassin continues to wage his BATTLES on wikipedia in an ever-widening set of articles, all covered by his topic ban, and against the same perceived opponents. [73] [74] It seems essentially to be all she is doing on wikipedia at the moment. Captain Occam has revealed below that he engages in discussions with Ferahgo the Assassin concerning wikipedia and his topic ban. In view of that admission, the only reasonable presumption is that Ferahgo the Assassin's edits in the area of his topic ban are also the result of joint discussions between the pair of them. Both Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin have been offered ample opportunity to comply with suggestions of arbitrators over a prolonged period of time (five weeks), but have been unresponsive. Because there seems to be no prospect of voluntary compliance, the only remaining option seems to be a formal amendment of Captain Occam's remedy, extending his topic ban to Ferahgo the Assassin. Since Captain Occam has shown no sign of taking any responsibility for his actions, some form of additional sanction might also be appropriate for him. Mathsci ( talk) 04:20, 2 October 2010 (UTC) reply

In addition to Captain Occam's new statements above, it might be worth noting a prior statement that he left on Maunus' user talk page: [75] "I’m sorry to bother you about this. I don’t know if I’ve made this clear, but I find this situation extremely frustrating also, and not just because I can observe in person how Ferahgo is affected by it. I share your concern that with so few editors left who edit from the hereditarian perspective, there’s a danger that the neutrality of the articles might suffer as a result, and Ferahgo is pretty much the only one of these left who hasn’t either been topic banned or quit out of frustration. Muntuwandi’s recent behavior on these articles does not give me a lot of confidence that he and WeijiBaikeBianji will be able to keep them neutral if given free reign over them. I’m very worried about what will happen to the articles if these editors manage to get rid of the only remaining editor who disagrees with them." Mathsci ( talk) 05:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by David.Kane

Although this debate does not involve me and I am topic banned in this area, MathSci's comments compel me to chime in.

1) Note Shell 's inadvertent (I hope!) mistake in describing Wikipedia:SHARE as "advis[ing] editors in this situation to treat edit warring and other restrictions as if they were a single account." But that is not what Wikipedia:SHARE says. Instead, "closely related accounts should disclose the connection and observe relevant policies such as edit warring as if they were a single account." (Emphasis added by me.) In other words, even though Occam is topic banned, that ban has no implications for Ferahgo. Restrictions placed on one account do not apply to the other account. There is all the difference in the world between restrictions and policies. (For the sake of argument, I assume that we all agree that Ferahgo and Occam are, in real life, two separate people. If Ferahgo were a sock-puppet then, obviously, restrictions which applied to Occam would apply to "her" as well.)

2) More productively, perhaps I can suggest a solution. We can all agree that Ferahgo's behavior (whatever legitimate complaints various editors may have about her) is not anywhere near as egregious as Occam's (or mine or MathSci's). Therefore, it makes no sense that she should receive as harsh a sanction as we (correctly) did. So how about probation? Or a one month topic ban, starting now? It seems unfair to Ferahgo that any restriction ever placed on Occam would apply to her as well. What if Occam were banned from Wikipedia completely? Would Ferahgo be sited-banned as well? That is not what Wikipedia:SHARE suggests. David.Kane ( talk) 16:52, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply

As much as it pains me to suggest any type of sanctions for Ferahgo, I think that in general, some sort of sanction that’s less than a full topic ban is probably the best idea.

There are two lines of reasoning that need to be weighed against one another here. Because of Ferahgo’s close connection to me, it’s reasonable to be worried that at some point she’ll engage in the same sort of disruptive behavior for which I was topic-banned, even though there haven’t been any examples of this yet. But on the other hand, it seems completely counter-productive to ban an editor from a group of articles where they’re making useful contributions and not causing any disruption. Ideally, whatever solution ArbCom comes up with should be based on both of these concerns.

In terms of what’s best for the articles, probation looks to me like the best idea. It will ensure that Ferahgo doesn’t engage in the same behavior for which I was sanctioned—and if she ever does, the probation would very quickly result in a block or topic ban. But it also would not prevent her from participating constructively as long as that’s the only thing she’s doing. In fact, I would say that this situation is a near-perfect example of the situation in which WP:Probation is used: “Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.” (Or perhaps in this case we should say, “shows some promise of continuing her existing good behavior.”)

In general, I would assume that the ultimate purpose of remedies imposed by ArbCom is to prevent disruption on the articles, so they should not extend beyond what’s necessary to prevent disruption. Is that an unreasonable assumption? -- Captain Occam ( talk) 18:19, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply

After thinking about it for a while - and discussing it with Occam - I agree that the best solution is for probation. I would voluntarily consent to a probation lasting the term of Occam's topic ban. Odd as it may be I think this might improve things in general, since at the moment I can hardly make a single edit or comment on these articles without being accused of POV-pushing or disruption by Weiji and Muntuwandi. All of the other consistently involved editors - like Maunus, Aprock, Vecrumba, and Victor Chmara - seem to appreciate my contributions, which has kept me from getting too disheartened. But even for edits the majority finds helpful, these accusations have been obstructing legitimate content discussions and progress to the articles.

If I am placed on probation, it would be the job of an uninvolved admin to determine if I'm engaging in any policy violations. One reason this would be helpful is simply that it would hopefully mean Muntuwandi and Weiji no longer feel the need to accuse me of this in every discussion I'm involved in and constantly try to get me removed. If I really AM doing anything wrong, I'd also like that to be constructively pointed out by someone uninvolved so that I can fix my behavior. When I'm being accused of this incessantly by only two people, it's impossible for me to tell whether I'm really doing anything wrong. - Ferahgo the Assassin ( talk) 22:50, 29 September 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Michael C. Price

All this fuss over a well sourced diagram.

Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., Menozzi, P. & Piazza, A are respected academics, not racists and these diagrams are standard. -- Michael C. Price ^talk 10:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

WeijiBaikeBianji says I can't have been following the entire discussion; you're right. What I did was look at Occam's insertion of the above diagram (since it was mentioned in this discussion) and see that it was reverted with the comment: "removed misleading image". How is the image misleading? It looks pretty standard to me. That tells me that we dealing with a POV issue, dressed up as a conduct issue. -- Michael C. Price ^talk 17:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Manus claims that the insertion of the diagram, which seems a long running bone of contention, mixes up "races" and "bio-geographical genetic clusters". This seems to miss the point that neither term was referenced in anyway in Occam's edit.

I would encourage everybody to look at the contenious edit and judge for themselves whether it merited removal on the grounds of being "misleading", and draw their own conclusions as to which side is being disruptive or POV pushing.

-- Michael C. Price ^talk 17:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

I understand Manus's point that it was more than this edit that was responsible for the original topic ban. But my point is that when a single informative edit, such as this is, is reverted so summarily, it is a sign that not all is well with the status-quo. -- Michael C. Price ^talk 18:04, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Muntuwandi, you don't have to read a book before posting an image from it - all that matters is that the new content confirm to policy, be relevant etc etc, which it does. That the image was later used by another source (Jensen) that you happen to not like is irrelevant. Judge content by ... content. Not inferred intentions and guilt by association. -- Michael C. Price ^talk 10:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Muntuwandi's argument (now) is that drive-by readers might misunderstand the diagram at "race and intelligence", since "few readers seem to pay attention to the actual text in the article". In other words, no matter how it explained, he will object to it...... -- Michael C. Price ^talk 02:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC) reply

I agree with Maunus that, if the topic ban is be extended to other users, it should include Muntuwandi because of his battleground mentality. This saddens me, since I worked with Muntuwandi on Mitochondrial Eve, but he seems to not be capable of respecting boundaries and NPOV here. -- Michael C. Price ^talk 14:07, 7 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by User:Slp1

As full disclosure, I should mention that I am one of the administrators who very strongly suggested that User:Ferahgo the Assassin should not directly edit the Race and Intelligence set of articles while Captain Occam was topic banned. [76] It appears the advice has not been heeded and we are here. My understanding is that a topic ban is put in place in part to help an editor disengage from a subject. Captain Occam's recent post above makes clear that this has not happened, and that he is as involved in scrutinizing the topic and its editors as he ever was. I cannot believe, given the detailed level of his interest and the relationship between them, that Ferahgo is a truly independent contributor here. It would have been preferable if she had accepted to limit herself voluntarily as requested, but since she hasn't, I believe that extending the topic ban to her is correct, and likely to help both of them to disengage from the issue. -- Slp1 ( talk) 22:28, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

@Captain Occam. I think you miss my point; this post is a detailed list of complaints about the edits of other editors on articles from which you are topic banned. This is not the place to re-litigate the ArbCom decision or to seek admin enforcement; it is the place to discuss whether you and Ferahgo are truly independent editors or not. Your post has the curious effect of showing that you have not disengaged, and that it is all the more likely that the two of you can be considered a unit, discussing the latest WP goings-on over supper etc. Being a unit is not a bad thing of course, since it's a very good sign in a relationship when a couple support and uphold each other. But I also think it is better for Wikipedia, and for the two of you, to have a break from this topic. My personal advice would be for both of you to unwatchlist the articles; somebody else can worry about them while you are gone, exploring the world and the many other articles of WP. -- Slp1 ( talk) 23:18, 3 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• I see little evidence that Ferahgo is a sockpuppet or otherwise acting in violation of policy; as has been pointed out, Ferahgo's primary editing interests to date seem to have revolved around obscure dinosaurs. If their presence becomes disruptive in the future, they can be dealt with by discretionary sanctions; I see no reason for us to presume wrongdoing at this point. Kirill  ^{[talk]  [prof]} 12:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply
• The recent SPI case confirmed that Ferahgo and Captain Occam were related in a way that made the two technically indistinguishable and Ferahgo was advised that she should respect the topic ban; she ignored this conclusion. Given that Wikipedia:SHARE advises editors in this situation to treat edit warring and other restrictions as if they were a single account when they edit with the same objective (especially in controversial areas), I don't see why there is any question here. Of further concern is Ferahgo's contribution history, or frankly, the lack thereof. Of her 314 edits since she registered in 2006, more than 50 were comments to support Captain Occam in some dispute or against some sanction. Before the sanction, she only edited in the topic area to support Captain Occam on talk pages. Since the ban she's continued his arguments and in just the past three days has reverted material she (and Captain Occam) didn't agree with 3 times. Stick to the dinosaurs. Shell ^babelfish 19:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC) reply
  • @Captain Occam - You should be well aware that I held this position long before this request even opened and warned both of you of the likely outcome if you chose this path. In fact, many editors (not just those you consider opponents) have brought this concern to both of you; the SPI should have made things quite clear. It's unfortunate that you both chose to push the limits this way instead of heading the advice you were getting, but here we are. Shell ^babelfish 01:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply
• On balance, the arguments that proxy editing of some sort is going on are much more persuasive than the denials and are a better fit with known facts and the applicable policy. I'd support a topic ban for Ferahgo.  Roger Davies ^talk 17:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC) reply
  • @Captain Occam. The point here though is that Ferahgo isn't a lone voice in this dispute. She has you by her side and you are as involved as those whose opinions you seek to have us exclude.   Roger Davies ^talk 01:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply
    • @Captain Occam. As this is not an AfD and we're not weighing consensus, it doesn't much matter who says what ...   Roger Davies ^talk 02:21, 28 September 2010 (UTC) reply
• I agree as well. As far as topic bans are concerned, both accounts should be taken as one. —  Coren  ^(talk) 13:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC) reply
• Agreed with those above, that this is a situation that needs to be eliminated because it's being used as a meatpuppetry/proxy editing setup. SirFozzie ( talk) 17:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC) reply

I wanted to check something in one of the old ANI threads related to this long-closed case, but found they weren't linked from the customary "prior DR" section of the request page. For reference, the independent ANI sub-pages were:

• Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Slrubenstein (19 April 2010)
• Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/History of the race and intelligence controversy (16 May 2010)
• Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Race and intelligence (2 June 2010)

There was some other stuff besides those pages, so the above is not intended as a complete summary.

67.122.209.190 ( talk) 23:20, 16 January 2011 (UTC) reply

Initiated by Mathsci ( talk) at 05:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Case affected

WP:ARBR&I

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

• Remedy 4, Captain Occam topic-banned

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Mathsci ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Captain Occam ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• {{ userlinks|Ludwigs2}}

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• [93] [94]

Amendment 1

• Captain Occam is site-banned from wikipedia for a period to be determined by ArbCom. The topic ban imposed on Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin could be extended to the two users privately mentioned in evidence to ArbCom.

Statement by Mathsci

Members of ArbCom have been aware for some time of ongoing issues of meatpuppetry following the topic ban imposed on Captain Occam and later on Ferhago the Assassin, per WP:SHARE. Evidence has been provided privately to ArbCom about two users associated off-wiki with both Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin.

At the end of January, unprompted, Captain Occam's editing on wikipedia entered a new stage of disruption. Members of ArbCom are already aware of the public letter written under his real name to the Economist. He has used this letter on wikipedia as a springboard to reopen the closed case WP:ARBR&I and renew allegations on wikipedia that have not been accepted by ArbCom. Captain Occam appears to be fanning the flames in several venues, entirely against the spirit of his topic ban. His edits at the moment suggest that, not only is he still in conflict with users previously involved in WP:ARBR&I but no longer active on the articles, but that he is in conflict with ArbCom itself. He has not moved on from the ArbCom case, nor does he seem to take any responsibility for his own actions.

Previous procedural disruption occurred in December when ArbCom had already voted to lift my topic ban on their own initiative. In these circumstances, and in view of his lack of openness in addressing the outstanding issues of meatpuppetry, even when questioned by arbitrators, some form of site-ban unfortunately now seems necessary. Diffs can be provided on request, but almost all recent non-article space postings are relevant. Mathsci ( talk) 05:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

To clarify, I am referring to what Captain Occam has written on wikipedia, not what was in the letter to the Economist. The publication of the letter has been used as a pretext for making distressing statements on wikipedia, some concerning me, which appear to contravene Captain Occam's extended topic ban, or at least the spirit of the ban. On User talk:Jimbo Wales, Captain Occam stated that the submitted letter contained a reference to Varoon Arya and the claimed circumstances under which he stopped editing. Captain Occam explained that that part of the letter was not published. The passage he mentioned is an unambiguous reference to this part of Captain Occam's evidence in WP:ARBR&I and concerned only me; those claims were not accepted by arbitrators. Captain Occam's initiation of a discussion on that point out of the blue seems disruptive. He has made further statements which also do not tally with the ArbCom findings here. I am upset that he mentioned my name, when there was no reason (see below). The events that led up to the ArbCom case had no particular logic: misjudgements and serious failings occurred which were accurately pinpointed by members of ArbCom; their findings and remedies appeared to resolve matters in a completely satisfactory way, at least as far as I was concerned. I have only praise for the way every arbitrator handled things.

Following the close of the case, however, Captain Occam has firstly attempted to get his girlfriend to edit on his behalf and then, when that failed, they jointly brought in at least two other friends, whose real life identities are known to ArbCom and who have been editing R&I-related pages fairly recently. The discussions that Captain Occam has started at the moment seem equally unhelpful. If they were general and intended to improve wikipedia that would be fine; but the starting point was the ARBR&I case and repeatedly users and past events that should absolutely not be discussed are mentioned. In the statement in the diff above, Captain Occam wrote (I think to Ludwigs2 amongst others), "You probably remember the way this went when we were dealing with Mathsci’s personal attacks last spring. Some of the comments in question were completely obvious and clear-cut violations of WP:NPA, and ArbCom eventually agreed with us about that, but every time this issue was brought up at AN/I most of the people there ended up supporting Mathsci regardless, and it was impossible to find a sysop who was willing to do anything about how he was acting. How can we be confident that this same situation won’t arise when someone is trying to report a popular sheriff who’s abused his power?" Surely sanctions were intended to prevent exactly statements of that nature being made. My name was brought up when it had no relevance to the discussion. That kind of behaviour is not very different from the accusations that Captain Occam made about Roger Davies just before Christmas, also on User talk:Jimbo Wales, just after the vote to lift my topic ban. Roger had proposed the motion and I think Captain Occam was suggesting that the proposal was out of order because he suspected I had influenced Roger behind the scenes. I would understand Newyorkbrad's point if Captain Occam had been talking about someone other than me; but unfortunately that does not seem to be the case. Mathsci ( talk) 03:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Additional comments

• I was unsure how to deal with the incidents described above: because of private information, the issues of meatpuppetry (the details of which have been passed on to ArbCom) could only be dealt with by ArbCom.
• Captain Occam officially invited Ludwigs2 to comment here [95] having added his name to the list of parties. [96] Why he did he add Ludwigs2?
• Zarboublian, editing after a month's absence, is very probably an alternative account of Quotient group, himself an alternative account of A.K.Nole, formerly editing as The Wiki House (with Kenilworth Terrace and Groomtech); he is now in a slightly different geographic location in the UK. I discussed this about a month ago with Shell Kinney. Mathsci ( talk) 03:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Apart from stalking me on several wikipedia pages, Zarboublian made the error of making an edit to back up Kenilworth Terrace on an otherwise completely obscure article. [97] [98] They concerned this sequence of edits. [99] [100] [101] [102] His latest posting seems to be an admission of guilt. His demeanour and editing patterns are indistinguishable from those of A.K.Nole/Quotient group. [103] [104] Here is yet another of his sockpuppet accounts [105]. Mathsci ( talk) 01:39, 8 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Shell Kinney has confirmed that Zarboublian is an alternative account of A.K.Nole, who was formally banned from interacting with me. Mikemikev, currently site-banned by ArbCom and also indefinitely banned by the community, has just made a contribution as 212.183.140.52 using a vodafone mobile access account. Both their contributions have some similarity with those of Ludwigs2. Mathsci ( talk) 01:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Yet another IP sock 207.203.80.20 has been trolling this page, undoubtedly Mikemikev. (My talk page is semiprotected for that reason.) As far as Xxanthippe's remarks about "obsessive stalking" are concerned, that is what A.K.Nole (Zarboublian) was banned from doing a year ago. Best not to use these terms in the wrong way, because of some of old grudge. Mathsci ( talk) 08:00, 11 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Xxanthippe has written that she thinks that the above comment "implies" that she is a sockpuppet of A.K.Nole. That is a totally incorrect misreading. Off-wiki Shell Kinney has very kindly dealt with A.K.Nole's wikistalking over a long period of time. Mikemikev' postings through the ipsock 207.203.80.20 [106] have continued on User talk:Newyorkbrad. (Mikemikev self-identifies himself by referring to previous sockpuppet postings made by him using a mobile vodafone account in the UK.) Mathsci ( talk) 07:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC) reply

More diffs of Captain Occam's comments

• on User Talk:RegentsPark [107] "What you need to understand about this now, Mathsci, is that the problem pointed out in my letter has now been acknowledged by a large enough group of people that it’s highly unlikely something isn’t going to be done about it. Even Jimbo Wales has recognized the existence of the problem, in this comment. Enough other people have gotten involved in this issue that even if I were to have nothing to do with it anymore, something would still probably end up being done about it, although the solution may end up being quite a bit different from what I originally proposed to Jimbo. (Which is fine with me.) It’s completely to be expected that you’ll be resistant to this change, since the lack of balance the way things currently are is something you’ve benefited from, but eventually you’ll need to accept that this benefit probably isn’t something you’ll continue having indefinitely." This was written in response to me suggesting to Captain Occam that he should move on and not discuss the case. Instead he make the unequivocal statement that I was treated in an unduly lenient way by ArbCom and administrators.

• in his first comment about the letter tot he Economist [108] on User talk:Jimbo Wales, Captain Occam wrote, "The user I was referring to is user:Varoon_Arya, and my letter is summarizing the reason for quitting the project that he gave in this comment." As explained above, in his evidence to WP:ARBR&I, Captain Occam blamed me for that. In my perception much of that post was an attempt to re-open matters which should have remained closed following the ArbCom case, and concerning me in particular.

• here [109] Captain Occam reverted a comment I made on User talk:Jimbo Wales. When I restored the comment, Captain Occam wrote, [110] "Also, I would appreciate it if someone could do something about personal attacks in this thread. I have a problem with Mathsci’s suggestion that I attempted to commit libel in my letter to the Economist, and that this is the reason why my letter was edited before publication. If anyone actually believes this, I guess I’d be willing to post the un-edited version of my letter on-wiki, so that others can see that this assertion is false." He claimed that my post was a personal attack and that something should be done about it. Cool Hand Luke corrected Captain Occam fairly soon. [111] This misrepresentation by Captain Occam of others, of himself, of arbitrators, of administrators, of the outcome of the ArbCom case, has occurred frequently in interactions with arbitrators, in particular Roger Davies and Shell Kinney. Here is the thread on User talk:jimbo Wales where Captain Occam repeatedly made unfounded accusations about Roger Davies and a claimed friendship with me: apparently this was based on idle speculation, hearsay and tittle-tattle coming from Ludwigs2. As Roger Davies wrote: "Close personal friend", been in touch "regularly", "apparently known Mathsci for a few years". It's all completely untrue. The thread also contains references to the two meatpuppet accounts. Shell Kinney interacted with Captain Occam on that topic. Those two users, one of whom is not particularly old, made a series of mistakes which allowed their accounts to be identified. Editing as a WP:TAG TEAM was precisely what was criticized in the findings of fact on three of those sanctioned under WP:ARBR&I. Captain Occam is the user who appears to have problems with openness and the inappropriate use of friends on wikipedia, not Roger Davies and not me. Mathsci ( talk) 08:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Ludwigs2's comments

I left a link in bold above to the discussion on User talk:Jimbo Wales that took place a week before Christmas. There Shell Kinney quoted a statement by Ludwigs2 on wikipedia:(od)Erm, you did notice that Ludwigs2 said "Mathsci may have friends on the arbitration committee (I don't know if that's true or if that's just another elements of Mathsci's preening bluster)". Since that's a rather vague insinuation which he admits to not knowing the truth of coupled with a personal attack thrown in at the end by someone who's been in repeated disputes with Mathsci, do you think it's possible that there isn't really anything to the accusation? Shell babelfish 00:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC) Mathsci ( talk) 09:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Captain Occam

I need to make it clear what’s happened here. The Economist published a letter from me which did not mention any specific editor or arbitration case by name, and suggesting some possible reforms in Wikipedia’s dispute resolution process. Since the reforms I had in mind could only be implemented by the board of trustees, I brought up my letter in Jimbo Wales’ user talk to make sure he was aware of it. My initial post in Jimbo Wales’ user talk also did not mention the R&I case by name, although it referred to one editor (Varoon Arya) who had been involved in it. Jimbo Wales made it clear that he thought this was an issue worth discussing ( [112], [113]) and Cool Hand Luke appeared to think so also. ( [114] [115]). I think it’s fairly clear that none of this, at this stage, was a violation of my topic ban.

After I had started this thread, several other past participants in the R&I case noticed either my letter or the thread in Jimbo’s user talk, and figured out that the R&I case was what I was referring to. It’s not hard to figure out, since that’s the only arbitration case I’ve been directly involved in. Two of them (Mathsci and Muntuwandi) showed up in the thread in Jimbo’s user talk challenging me about specifics, and a third (Slrubenstein) made a pair of personal attacks against me in someone else’s user talk. (The attacks have now been deleted using RevDel, so I can’t link to the diffs.) Before these editors began challenging me, I’d had no prior contact with any of them in the past month.

The real mistake I made here was a lack of foresight. Even though my initial statement in Jimbo Wales’ user talk did not violate my topic ban or refer directly to any of these editors, I should have predicted that they would view it as an invitation to engage me in further discussion about the R&I case. That said, I need to emphasize that my intention was not to continue this conflict, and I had no involvement with Mathsci, Muntuwandi or Slrubenstein over this issue until they chose to become involved in it themselves.

I would still like to be able to work towards improving Wikipedia’s dispute resolution system, if there’s a way for me to do that without it being interpreted as continuing the R&I conflict. I am open to advice from arbitrators about whether that’s possible or not, and if ArbCom decides that it isn’t, I’ll stay out of discussions about this from now on. Maunus has offered to become my mentor, which is something else I’m willing to accept if ArbCom decides it’s appropriate. However, I think a site-ban is obviously excessive here. I’m currently in the middle of a major expansion of the William Beebe article, Ferahgo (who would presumably also be covered by a site-ban, due to WP:SHARE) is midway through writing an article about Gerhard Heilmann’s book The Origin of Birds, and we are essentially the only editors working on these articles. If we get site-banned, both of these articles would have to remain indefinitely in their current half-finished state. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 18:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Response to SirFozzie

I would really appreciate some guidance from ArbCom about what is and isn’t covered by my topic ban in this respect. I was under the impression that I’m allowed to make general comments about how Wikipedia’s dispute resolution process could be improved (as I was doing in Jimbo Wales’ user talk), and that I’m allowed to comment in response when someone else has brought me up by name (as in the case of Slrubenstein’s comments). Although the comments from SLR that I was discussing have been deleted using RevDel, arbitrators should still be able to see them, so I’ll link to them anyway: [116] [117]. If I was wrong to assume that I’m allowed to do these things, and ArbCom can give me clear instructions about that, then I can agree to refrain from doing them in the future. But it’s important that this be as specific as possible. Just being told that I need to avoid re-fighting past conflicts isn’t going to be as helpful, because that doesn’t tell me what I should do in situations like this one, where I was discussing something that I considered unrelated until other past participants in the R&I case followed me to the discussion and began discussing me elsewhere. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 22:57, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Response to LHVU

The reason why I didn’t use the e-mail feature to contact Mr. Wales privately was because my intention posting about it in his user talk was more than just to make sure he noticed my letter. I thought that this was an issue where it would be beneficial to have a community discussion about it. The same problem described in my letter had been described by Sandstein in his ArbCom application, and my post in Jimbo’s user talk also quoted Sandstein’s comment, so at the very least I wanted him to be able to participate in the discussion if he wanted to. Sandstein ended up not participating in it, but I still feel that my posting there led to a productive discussion between myself, Jimbo Wales, Cool Hand Luke, and Ludwigs2, Mathsci’s reaction notwithstanding.

However, per the advice from Newyorkbrad and Roger Davies, I’ll be more cautious in the future to avoid initiating discussions that others could see as related to the R&I topic, even if I don’t see them that way myself. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 19:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by (non-involved) Ludwigs2

I have struck my name above, as I am not involved in or affected by this in any way.

I think this is a case where BOOMERANG ought to apply. Even though this arbitration case is long over, Mathsci is still obviously holding a grudge, and still trying to find any excuse (no matter how far fetched) to get the people he was arguing with in trouble. I'd like to ask the committee to impose the following sanction on Mathsci:

• For a period of one year, Matchsci is prohibited from making any comment whatsoever, anywhere on project, about other editors or their activities.

Mathsci has an unfortunate tendency to to rely on ad hominem arguments in his complaints; his posts to me invariably contain some snide reference or demeaning comment, and the only reason he doesn't treat me with the overt hostility he shows to others from the R&I case is that I disengage from communication with him as quickly as possible. A year in which even mild rudeness and personal attacks are sanctionable might encourage him to develop more socially responsible forms of raising and addressing project issues.

I will open a second amendment thread on this request, if that is needed. I am really tired of this kind of crapulence, and would like to see it put to a stop.

The request against Occam strikes me as silly, sophomoric and tendentious. It does not serve the project's goals, but merely feeds some apparently unquenchable vindictive urge that Mathsci is subject to. -- Ludwigs2 23:16, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

comment to Mathsci

M, I don't "tittle-tattle" (whatever the hell that means). I'll remind you again not to make up stupid crap about me, because I will call you on it every time. Please redact that comment. -- Ludwigs2 02:52, 8 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Request to sysop: I am tired of Mathsci's mindless crapulence. Would a sysop please ask Mathsci to either redact the lie he said about me above or provide a supporting diff to justify its inclusion? If I do not get a response from a sysop here today, I will take the matter up at ANI - I am not in the mood to put up with this bull, and am happy to export this trivial matter to whatever forum I need to export it to get satisfaction. thanks. -- Ludwigs2 15:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Response to Mathsci: thanks for providing source for that lie you told about me. Please note that the original context of that quote (which I am sure you are aware of) was in response to Occam accusing you of having personal relationships with Arbs (a misperception which you fostered steadily on the R&I talk page). I was in fact telling him that it was not the case so far as I know. So in fact I was not 'tittle-tattling' on you, but rather defending you by defusing one of Occam's more extreme concerns (though with admittedly snide overtones). If you want to complain about my being uncivil I would happily accept that as true: I might produce several dozen diffs in which you say things that sound tremendously like preening to my ear in order to justify the comment (and which would also explain how Occam got bamboozled into thinking you were more tightly connected than you actually are), but even then you'd have a point. but do not make up lies about me. I'm still waiting on you to redact. -- Ludwigs2 23:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

• comment I don't think that topic bans imposed at wikipedia extend to other public news media - I think that censoring someone because of participating in the public debate about wikipedia would be a bad move, and promote a kind of wikipedia community we don't want. People should be allowed to discuss their wiki experiences, also the bad ones, in other venues without that having any bearings on their editing. However, the appeal to Jimbo was clearly a bad move on the part of Captain Occam and does suggest that he is having more than a little trouble dropping the issue here on wikipedia. I think Mathsci is als inflaming the issue and that a more becoming mode of action for him would have been to simply leave it alone, since Occam's communication with Jimbo is not really harming anyone and is unlikely to have any effect on the particular issues covered by the R&I topic ban. I think an indef ban is excessive if Captain Occam recognizes having been in error and shows a will to proceed to become a valuable editor in other venues as he is currently showing good progress towards (e.g. at William Beebee). ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:32, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Comment This accusation must be supported by diffs. Mathsci levels several serious charges - meatpuppetry, disruption, reopening a closed case, renew allegations, several venues, violation of topic ban, irresponsibility. The sanctions called for are equally serious - site banning. It really seems inadequate to airily allude to "almost all recent non-article postings" to support multiple highly serious allegations - serious accusations require serious evidence to be taken seriously. Zarboublian ( talk) 20:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Comment Here Captain Occam says, "I wrote a letter to The Economist which did not mention any specific editor or arbitration case by name." On Jimbo's talk page he wrote, "The Economist edited my letter...[and] also left out where I mentioned who was the user whose reason for leaving I described in detail." Professor marginalia ( talk) 21:39, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Comment Appears to be cup of tea time rather than an ArbCom melee. Collect ( talk) 22:25, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Comment so is there anything for arbcomm here or is it just an excuse for Matchsi to rant aganst people he doesnt like? 212.183.140.52 ( talk) 17:57, 8 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Comment. Advise take no action on proposed amendment. Obsessive Wiki-hounding by MathSci. Xxanthippe ( talk) 10:05, 10 February 2011 (UTC). reply

In his edit of 11 February MathSci implies that I am a sockpuppet of A.K.Nole (Zarboublian). This is false, as may be checked by CU. Xxanthippe ( talk) 01:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC). reply

• Comment Why is Mathsci allowed to engage in systematic persecution of those whose beliefs he deems offensive? -- 207.203.80.20 ( talk) 23:27, 10 February 2011 (UTC) reply

• Comment If someone has had a letter published off wiki, regarding issues relating to Wikipedia, and regards forewarning Jimmy Wales of the fact as necessary - why not use the email facility, rather than one of the most highly trafficked pages on the project? LessHeard vanU ( talk) 14:08, 12 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• From my perspective this appears to be more of an arbitration enforcement report than a request for amendment. Captain Occam is already restricted by an arbitration enforcement decision, and his recent comments are arguably in breach of this restriction. PhilKnight ( talk) 16:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with Phil here. Comments made off of Wikipedia are definitely outside our remit as far as restrictions in almost any case, but there are comments onwiki that may be considered breach of prior restriction. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^{( talk)} 17:19, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply
• It does appear to me that Captain Occam is doing his best to re-fight old battles, and this needs to stop. SirFozzie ( talk) 20:55, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply
• Captain Occam should stick to mainspace for awhile, and work on articles far removed from those that got him into difficulty. Mathsci should allow others to keep an eye on Captain Occam's activities at this point rather than worrying about them himself. Absent additional problems, I do not favor any action by the committee at this time. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 23:26, 6 February 2011 (UTC) reply
• Per all the above, moving away from the area needs to happen and a warning should be sufficient. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 01:24, 7 February 2011 (UTC) reply
• It would be best for everyone to move on within their respective restrictions. I do not think a modification is warranted at this time. Cool Hand Luke 14:47, 7 February 2011 (UTC) reply
• I don't think this amendment is warranted just yet though I do concur with what my colleagues have said about WP:AE perhaps being pertinant. Other thoughts?
  @Captain Occam. In its simplest interpretation, the amended restriction requires you to disengage completely both directly and indirectly from the topic ("including user talk pages"), unless specifically responding to others ("They are free to respond at noticeboards whenever their own editing is mentioned"). This means it prevents you making even coded or oblique references. If you wish to avoid further sanction, perhaps the safest way for you to interpret how this applies to you is to ask yourself before you make an action/edit how you would perceive the same edit/action if it had been made by a topic-banned adversary of yours. If you conclude that such an action/edit of theirs arguably breaches the restriction, don't make a similar one yourself.
  @Mathsci. I expressed the hope in the motion lifting the topic restriction that you'd walk away entirely from R&I-related issues. This is because I do not believe that participants in cases are the best people to push for enforcement as it only opens old wounds (as has happened here). If another editor's conduct is egregious enough, it will be noted by other - less involved - editors, who can initiate appropriate action. That advice still stands and I urge you to follow it.
  @Ludwigs: I'm surprised by the tone of your comments and must ask you be to be more circumspect.
    Roger ^talk 06:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC) reply
• Agree completely with Roger Davies. ALL of you need to step away from this topic area in any way, shape or form. This appears to be an AE issue. Risker ( talk) 07:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC) reply
• Better part of a week later, and I have nothing to add to what Risker said. Let it go. Jclemens ( talk) 06:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC) reply

Initiated by Miradre ( talk) at 10:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC) reply

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Miradre ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by your Miradre

The current statement for the scope of the sanctions are "to articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed)". It is highly problematic that the focus seems to be on "articles" and not on the actual material that is edited. The same focus on the article title rather than on the material edited are in these templates:

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.

Arbitration Ruling on Race and Intelligence The article Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence, along with other articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed), is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, described in a 2010 Arbitration Committee case where the articulated principles included: Pillars: Wikipedia articles must be neutral, verifiable and must not contain original research. Those founding principles (the Pillars) are not negotiable and cannot be overruled, even when apparent consensus to do so exists. Original research: Wikipedia defines "original research" as "facts, allegations, ideas, and stories not already published by reliable sources". In particular, analyses or conclusions not already published in reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy are not appropriate for inclusion in articles. Correct use of sources: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. Advocacy: Wikipedia strives towards a neutral point of view. Accordingly, it is not the appropriate venue for advocacy or for advancing a specific point of view. While coverage of all significant points of view is a necessary part of balancing an article, striving to give exposure to minority viewpoints that are not significantly expressed in reliable secondary sources is not. Single purpose accounts: Single purpose accounts are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral, which could strongly suggest that their editing is not compatible with the goals of this project. Decorum: Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, or disruptive point-making, is prohibited. Tag-team editing: Tag teams work in unison to push a particular point of view. Tag-team editing – to thwart core policies ( neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research); or to evade procedural restrictions such as the three revert rule or to violate behavioural norms by edit warring; or to attempt to exert ownership over articles; or otherwise to prevent consensus prevailing – is prohibited. If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the above guidelines. You may also wish to review the full arbitration case page. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first.

1. Does the sanctions include material that is clearly not regarding this intersection but that are in articles that may contain some other material regarding to this intersection. For example, would adding material about the relationship between "IQ and happiness" to the "IQ" article be within the scope of the sanctions?

2. Exactly what articles are included? Articles about ethnic foods? Female circumcision (varies by ethnicity)? Cousin marriages? Immigration? Slavery? Wars (ethnicity certainly often important)? Are articles about various differences between nations under the sanctions? Ethnically based political parties? Politics in general which often includes ethnic concerns? General medical articles since there are ethnic differences regarding diseases? All religious articles since religion varies by ethnicity? I am sure the one with could find this intersection in some small part of every article about human activity in Wikipedia which in effect would mean that all articles about humans are under the scope.

I would recommend that the emphasis should be shifted from specific "articles" to specific "material". So the parts of the "IQ" article not about this intersection is not under the sanctions but the sanctions apply to material about the intersection regardless of the title of article.

Reply to xeno. Since I am topic banned at the moment I am of course interested in knowing what areas I may edit. It is in the area of psychology I have most knowledge and am able to contribute. For example, may I add material about "IQ and happiness" to the IQ article? May I create a new article about how happiness differ between nations? See the other examples I mentioned above. I am sure to be instantly reported by the editors who wants an excuse to ban me permanently so I would like to know before editing where the border goes. Miradre ( talk) 13:33, 12 July 2011 (UTC) reply

From Mathsci's comments and his other behavior of following me around it seems likely he will file an AE immediately if I make an edit of any kind to IQ the article and many other articles of the kind I described above. That is exactly why I would like a clarification before making such an edit. I appreciate Mastcell's view that I can make "general psychology-related improvements clearly unrelated to the race/intelligence intersection" but due to the emphasis on specific "articles" rather on "content" both in the sanction text and the tagging it not certain that every administrator would agree that I would be allowed to edit the "IQ" article at all. I would rather not gamble which I why I ask before. Miradre ( talk) 19:09, 12 July 2011 (UTC) reply

Reply to Aprock. None of the articles or edits, such as the rankings in the book Human Accomplishment, are about either race or intelligence. Obviously therefore not their intersection. Harassment by Aprock who disagrees with me on issues besides race and intelligence. Also, as usual his presentation is misleading. As far as I know E. O. Wilson is not a "prominent hereditarian" on either race or intelligence issues. Also, I still do not understand or have received an explanation for why Aprock did not also receive a topic ban, or at least notification, for reverting. He did more reverts than me as documented in the topic ban discussion! [118] Looks like a double standard in this area, when I receive a 3 month topic ban, while he nothing for doing more reverts than me, so a clarification would be helpful. Miradre ( talk) 19:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC) reply

(To clarify the time sequence regarding questions and answers in the RfC: Note also that this a new question today from aprock after several arbiters have already answered my earlier one week old question. Miradre ( talk) 20:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)) reply

Statement by Mathsci

Meritless request. This editor is spamming neutral articles with non-neutral content related to R&I and wasting the time of editors, administrators and (in this case) arbitrators. Mathsci ( talk) 16:22, 12 July 2011 (UTC) reply

I am just one of a large number of editors to find problems with Miradre's edits. I have been involved in only three of the articles that Miradre has edited recently ( White flight, List of international rankings and Malaria). Elsewhere on wikipedia, but not here, Aprock has been the main target of Miradre's complaints. Mathsci ( talk) 19:34, 13 July 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by MastCell

As a general observation, the race & intelligence dispute features a number of editors who are quite invested in testing and wikilawyering the boundaries of their restrictions. Given this tendency, I think a broad restriction is preferable to death by a thousand cuts. If Miradre's edits are general psychology-related improvements clearly unrelated to the race/intelligence intersection, then I think we have to trust that admins won't sanction him for them. On the other hand, if Miradre's edits simply seem designed to circumvent the letter of the restriction on race/intelligence articles, then I think admins should have the latitude to act. MastCell  ^Talk 18:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by aprock

As an illustration of MastCell's comments above about "testing boundaries", Miradre has embarked on a series of edits to promote the book Human Accomplishment by Charles Murray, author of The Bell Curve, adding it to a number of articles where it's inclusion is WP:UNDUE:

• Leonhard Euler
• Einstein's awards and honors
• Aristotle
• Shakespeare's reputation
• Isaac Newton
• Genius

On a related tack...

• softening criticism of E. O. Wilson, another prominent hereditarian, in the Sociobiology article: [119]
• entered into a dispute at Criticism of evolutionary psychology: [120], [121].
• made edits which link to articles in the category R&I: [122]

Given this pattern of "walking the line" of his topic ban, could an administrator please clarify whether or not these edits fall within or without the scope of the topic ban? aprock ( talk) 19:10, 20 July 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Is there an actual instance where there was some dispute over the scope prompting this clarification request? I do note that this case has already been amended to refer to "any edit relating to the area of conflict anywhere on Wikipedia" and not just articles. – xeno ^talk 12:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC) reply

  @Miradre: Thanks for clarifying. Convenience links to discussion leading to topic ban and previous clarification request leading to amendment. Will need to review in more detail. – xeno ^talk 15:12, 12 July 2011 (UTC) reply

• Will try and pop back in tomorrow once I've reviewed the case. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^{( talk)} 03:07, 17 July 2011 (UTC) reply
  • After re-reading the previous amendments and the views above, I'm not sure drawing additional boundary lines would be helpful or effective. The amendment stipulates that any intersection of race and human abilities, broadly construed, is fair game for sanctions, and we broadened it for good reasons. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^{( talk)} 16:00, 17 July 2011 (UTC) reply
• Per David, the main aim is to steer clear of the topic area as broadly construed. Decline. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 21:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC) reply
• I would also decline. We expanded this for a reason. My best approximation here is: if you have to ask, you're not far enough from the boundary. Cool Hand Luke 23:27, 17 July 2011 (UTC) reply
• I agree that no action is required, for the reasons suggested by David Fuchs, Casliber, and Cool Hand Luke. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 04:11, 18 July 2011 (UTC) reply