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For several weeks now, members of WikiProject Motorsport have been debating the meaning of the Sporting Regulations for the World Rally Championship. These are the rules produced by the governing body of motorsport, the FIA. The passage in question is Article 26, which reads as follows:
26. SEASONALLY ALLOCATED COMPETITION NUMBERS
26.1 MANUFACTURERS
P1 drivers may request a specific number provided that the application is endorsed by the FIA and the Promoter. Number 1 may only be chosen by the World Champion driver of the previous season. Requested numbers may not be greater than 99.
26.2 OTHER DRIVERS
Competition numbers shall be allocated rally by rally, according to the provisional classification of the Championships concerned.
It is this idea of "seasonally allocated competition numbers" that is proving problematic. One of the editors involved, Tvx1, put forward the following interpretation of Article 26:
Having taken another look at the sources in the article, as well as at the sporting regulations, I'm no longer convinced that these drivers/crews have chosen career numbers. Neither the sources, nor the regulations mention "career numbers". They all actually talk about season/seasonal numbers. It seems like they only reserve a number for the duration of a season. While it is likely that crews will pick the same numbers over multiple seasons, we can't really be certain of that.
His argument is that because the section is referred to as "seasonally allocated" numbers, that means a driver chooses a number for one year at which point they need to reapply for that number. I believe this to be original research on his part for the following reasons:
wrc "seasonal numbers", the only hits I get related to the subject are the WT:MOTOR discussion where Tvx1 made his claim.
Furthermore, the FIA website details the specific changes to the Sporting Regulations year on year. This passage outlines the nature of Article 26:
In order to give consistent identity to drivers and assist with promotion, Priority 1 drivers will be free to choose their permanent car number from 2019, except number 1, which will always be reserved for the reigning World Rally Champion.
This specifically refers to "permanent numbers" rather than "seasonal numbers". I have requested that both Tvx1 and Pelmeen10—who supported his interpretation—share any sources that they have to substatiate the "seasonal numbers" argument. They have either refused, ignored the request, or claimed that the burden rests with those who disagree with them.
In the past week, a new source has become available: the entry list for the first round of 2020. It shows that two drivers (Sébastien Loeb and Takamoto Katsuta) are competing with different numbers to the ones they used in 2019. This source was not available at the time Tvx1 made his claim. Tvx1 is claiming that this proves him right; however, the entry list only shows that the numbers have changed. It does not explain how the number changes came about. I believe this to be synthesis.
There are three things that I would like to see happen in this discussion:
Finally, I know that this seems like a very minor thing to come to a noticeboard for. However, the discussion is taking place at WikiProject Motorsport (rather than WikiProject World Rally) and so has the potential to affect every single article within the scope of WP:MOTOR. Mclarenfan17 ( talk) 10:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
I believe that Tvx1 and Pelmeen did engage in original research but they're not anymore as more sources have come to light.
Please provide a diff were I made that specific claim?
What evidence did you ever provide that supported your claim that these numbers were supposedly fixed for their entire careers?
Ogier's Citroen team-mate Esapekka Lappi will carry #4 in his first season with the French manufacturer...;
A number was not assigned to Sebastien Loeb, who is currently competing on the Dakar Rally, at the unveiling, but the nine-time world champion's Hyundai will carry #19 on its six outings this season.). Yet for some reason you utterly refuse to accept that even though no one agrees with you. T v x1 23:12, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
It seems like they only reserve a number for the duration of a season.
The only claim I actually made is that we had insufficient evidence to support the content.
They all actually talk about season/seasonal numbers. It seems like they only reserve a number for the duration of a season.
Mclarenfan17, while you insisted us to provide sources that car numbers can change, you yourself failed to provide evidence that they stay the same. The sources you provided do not explain what is a "permanent number", and now with the number changes we know it was premature to write those wrong numbers in the first place. Content of Wikipedia should not be poorly sourced. You did the same thing with writing the "WRC-2 Pro" championship will run in 2020. Remember that you wrote in May that the championship will run, while is reality it does not. The false info stayed in the article for 6 months, when on 5th of October I finally removed it. Then you demanded sources and consensus from me. Talk:2020_World_Rally_Championship/Archive_1#WRC-2_Pro_in_2020 [4] [5]. Now I ask do you understand what All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports[2] the contribution.[3] Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source means? Do you plan to write poorly sourced content in the future? Pelmeen10 ( talk) 01:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
The sources you provided do not explain what is a "permanent number", and now with the number changes we know it was premature to write those wrong numbers in the first place.
Now I ask do you understand what All content must be verifiable
Do you plan to write poorly sourced content in the future?
Why would anyone have to provide a source not to include content?
You were the one would included content in an article without any source correctly supporting it
My edits to a page concerning the scientific validity of a published book were rejected by Matt18224 based on the no original research and inappropriate synthesis standard. Here is the link to the original text of my edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Alex_Berenson&diff=prev&oldid=938805711 As I have published quite a bit in scientific journals,accuracy of sourcing is very familiar to me. Nothing that I presented was original research in my edit, though all of it was original research on the part of the authors cited. The assertions I make about their work are assertions they present themselves in their published paper. It is unbelievable to me that Matt18224 would have read the links I provided in the space of two hours and determined that my description of the work went beyond what was published therein. The meaning of synthesis I am less clear on, as any bringing together of scientific facts to construct a useful scientific page on Wiki involves the act of bringing the facts together to educate.
What is most alarming is that the current posting relevant to the science of the book in question (Tell Your Children) is completely one sided and relies on journalists who have quoted one set of scientists, some of whom have a vested financial interest in the topic at hand (are members of cannabis company advisory boards).
I think discussion of Tell Your Children should evolve into a pro-con format, wherein all posts are allowed that provide good sourcing and are not defamatory, etc. If nothing were to be edited out (except by the poster) then the public would benefit from being exposed to the disparate views.
Please advise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MomwithaPhD ( talk • contribs) 20:12, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Several maps have been raised for deletion discussion on Commons which appear to be entirely original research. These are used in multiple articles and presented as if they are published maps from peer-reviewed research. At best, they appear to have been generated from open forum discussions and 'creatively' interpreting data sets which would never have provided sufficient detail to draw fine zoning lines. Raising here for the general principle, as such user creations might end up being hosted on Commons, but using them in any Wikipedia article seems to break WP:OR and they probably should be systematically removed.
The Haplogroup R1b map, shows detailed map zoning which does not seem to be based on any declared dataset (correction, 11 sources were vaguely quoted, along with "etc"). This map is currently illustrating:
-- Fæ ( talk) 15:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
This R1b map is the single illustration for Haplogroup R-L151, and there is no indication of why the zones are marked exactly in the way they are. This is apparently the views of the map uploader, not because any source defines data this way. -- Fæ ( talk) 15:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
This is the infobox illustration for Haplogroup N-M231. No sources have been produced to show how it was created. -- Fæ ( talk) 15:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
This is a case where the source is reliable but I think is being interpreted in an original way. The edit [6] is:
Recent research by John Koch describes Ireland as a "fully paid member of the Atlantic Late Bronze age with south-west Iberia". John Kochs recent research also calls into question the dismissal, "as an invention", that the Gaels (Milesians) originated in the Iberian Peninsula. [1]
The source states: On the other hand, both Ireland and south-west Iberia had been ‘fully paid-up members’ of the Atlantic Late Bronze Age. It has long been recognised that the V-notched shields, leaf-shaped swords and ogival-headed spears of the Iberian warrior stelae have close counterparts among actual artefacts of the Irish late Bronze Age. Therefore, if we can reorientate our thinking away from Hallstatt and La Tène to look instead at Ireland’s overseas affinities during its spectacularly wealthy late Bronze Age, the fact that Tartessos should now be giving up some of its mysteries in a language comparable to Irish may not be so surprising. It will not be the first or the last ironic twist of intellectual history for a Celtic Tartessos to appear on the horizon after the Spanish provenance of the Gaels (as per the Book of Invasions) has lost its last shred of credibility."
I can't see what "fully paid member..." adds to the article(I'm guessing the editor sees this as an argument for something) or where Koch's research (or his last sentence) "calls into question the dismissal, "as an invention", that the Gaels (Milesians) originated in the Iberian Peninsula.". Doug Weller talk 16:11, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
References
I have pointed this out before. the page is unable to be edited with any new sources unless revolves around apaper by Carey in 1994. there is currenlty 17 citations of that work on the page with more hidden in collections of Celtic works.. using the small stable of acceptable sources one being Koch , who earlier in his career was dismissive of the Link between Ireland and Spain, has now changed his mind, Doug has issues with this update in Kochs research.. dna and archaeology has confirmed the link between Ireland, Iberia and Spain based on language, dna in cairns or burial sites.
what Koch says here cant be clearer..
however i had little time to include other sources today as Doug took issue and reverted back before i had time to include.
the page has a very biased POV based on the insistence of using careys old work.. feel free to read the "talk" to get a better undertsanding of the issues.
Gemmathegael (
talk) 17:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Koch is the source that was on the page when i first started editing, Doug Weller does not like new sources, even newer work from the same person. Most researchers change their minds faced with new evidence, in this case language, metalwork and DNA . I think Doug Weller wants to keep a POV on the document and is unwilling to let me edit, hence the edit war. which is quite frankly off for a " mod" who has been using wiki for so long. I am a new user. The problem even today is he reverted again today without waiting until i added more citations or feedback. Conditions i was placed under... see talk page by Doug Weller was " all my sources must fit a certain criteria he decided" , even when I edit, as today, with sources that fit this narrow criteria he has issues.. as of today I have 3 messages from him on my talk page with more requirements, a reversion, chasing up some issue he has with a source here, accusations of something else I'm not quite sure of with " by text he brought here" its a she btw..
Maybe if i had time to include sources instead of responding on the talk page against what i find was extremly discriminatory remarks,including on Christian writers and had to remind him of the code of ethics wiki should uphold.
btw not quite sure what he means by "text he brought here".. can he elaborate on that one.. the time stamp in the editing of the page and the history notes show i edited prior to him posting here.. me @ 16:01. I am at a loss what he means, maybe someone can explain what it is
to sum it up... i added the link to clarify Kochs point and to correct what was seen to be a copyright issue.its hard to keep up. I feel he reverted as he didnt like the new source as it contradicts his POV. I am new to wiki and it will take me a few days to get up to speed with things, in the meantime i would prefer not to be messaged multiple times a day over small edits, or some other issue that can be dealt with in a civil manner. I would prefer to have a little time to edit before everything is reverted on minor issues.
to clarify the two sources i provided clarify the new position of Koch.. Gemmathegael ( talk) 19:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
btw as a new user i am still trying to work out how to edit references so as not to infringe copyright and maybe then, and given the space I can add more of what Koch wrote... this hounding in relentless Gemmathegael ( talk) 19:55, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
User AldezD has been adding seemingly WP:OR/ WP:SYNTHESIS material onto Deal or No Deal (American game show), showing no signs of stopping after multiple warnings. I've tried to give warnings about the original research, instead getting a, "Knock it off and don't template me." on my talk page.
In regards to the problem itself, as I've just pointed out in a reply on my talk page, the tweet in question states nothing about the show's cancellation. All the tweet is saying is that the account is not active, and to follow @CNBCPrimeTV, which as I also stated, says, "Home of #BackintheGame, #CashPad, @dealnodealcnbc, @LenosGarage, @TheProfitCNBC, @AmericanGreedTV & more!" in the bio. There is nothing said about the show's cancellation and no WP:RS (apart from the tweet) about the show's cancellation, leading this to be complete original research.
However, the user continues to ignore any/all warnings, reverting back to the WP:OR every time. What should be done here? A tweet about the account no longer being active does not equate to the show being cancelled, especially with no other source for it. Thanks in advance. Magitroopa ( talk) 17:44, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Good afternoon, I am here to report what I suspect to be a case of original research on the article Macedonian Blood Wedding. Please note that I am new to Wikipedia so I am not entirely sure if it would classify as such. It namely has to do with the following edits [7] and [8]. First of all, all three of the sources cited to support the fact that Macedonian was considered a Bulgarian dialect do not even mention the play in question. In my opinion, that topic is how the Macedonian language was viewed at the time, which is more pertinent to articles like Macedonian language, Macedonian language naming dispute and Political views on the Macedonian language. One of my other concerns with those sources is that they contain super lengthy excerpts which are again completely unrelated to the article. The same applies to sources six and seven which again do not even mention Macedonian Blood Wedding. Secondly, another one of the sources the editor uses to support his claim , namely this one does not seem as the most reliable material to me; it is from a website called promacedonia.org and again, it does not even mention the play nor its author (it is in Bulgarian so someone else who speaks the language can confirm that). So it seems to me that User: Jingiby tries to add a very biased, personal view of the language of the book. I agree that if there are any reliable and academic sources which mention the language used specifically related to the book, they should be mentioned in the article, however this user does not seem to provide them. Thank you very much in advance for considering this entry. P.S He also reverted my reverts to his edits so that is why I am taking the issue here. DD1997DD ( talk) 12:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussions are requested to have community-wide attention:
Talk:2019–20 Wuhan coronavirus outbreak
For the coronavirus outbreak, should we utilize the graph that shows "cases deaths and recoveries", the "case fatality rate" in a graph, both, or none, or an "epidemic curve" per WP:MEDRS WP:OR and WP:CALC -- Almaty ( talk) 06:23, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Race and intelligence#Requested move 4 March 2020. Levivich dubious – discuss 19:46, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2020/June#Synthesis, POV. Gyrofrog (talk) 20:39, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Art Deco article appears to have large amount of original research and synthesis. For example, let us start with first paragraph in Cubist influence. It says Cubism appeared between 1907 and 1912 influencing development of Art Deco, source quoted makes no mention of Art Deco. Third paragraph in same section explains what Art Deco will be in future, but quotes source from 1912. There is no chance that source could know what Art Deco will be. Moving on to the Influence section, again entire paragraph quotes source from 1905. I think there is considerable number of sources that make no mention of Art Deco at all and are used in the article with original research and synthesis, considerable number of text has no source at all. Sauvahge ( talk) 23:17, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
I recently created a RfC for Markovian Parallax Denigrate. Please give your input. Veverve ( talk) 23:10, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2020_March_16#File:The_black_hammer.gif . Does including the Book Cover on a book that Ezra Taft Benson wrote the foreword to constitute OR? Epachamo ( talk) 02:58, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Newslack: has added a large “Controversy” section to Taiwan News which is almost entirely synthesis and OR. I have tried to address the concerns on the talk page in good faith but I’ve been accused of being disruptive by the other editor including for adding citation needed tags to unsourced material they introduced into the article so I thought I’d bring it here as its going nowhere there. There was one relevant article among the ones they cited and I attempted to accurately summarize just that article [11] but I was reverted and they went back to hyperbole and synth. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 15:55, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Looking at the page
as it exists right now, there is indeed original research in the controversy section. The first example is Taiwan News is known for sensationalism and unreliable reporting, which was particularly egregious during the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic.[6]
While the cited source calls out Taiwan News for specific examples egregious, unreliable and sensational reporting regarding the pandemic, it does not state that the news source is "known for" this type of reporting. That statement is clearly the conclusion of a Wikipedia editor based on the source, rather than the conclusion of the source itself.
The second example of original research is in the paragraph regarding sulfur dioxide levels in Wuhan. While one of the cited sources explicitly refutes a Taiwan News article on this claim, the other source does not. Neither of the two sources refer to one another, either. It is therefore a Wikipedia editor's conclusion that the second source refutes the claims made by Taiwan News, which is not something we are allowed to do. Someguy1221 ( talk) 06:48, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Ok, but if deleting one of two debunking sources would allow us all to move on and not come back, using up even more time, then I can do so. Newslack ( talk) 17:51, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Note that the debate came into light in Greece recently, when Church decided to carry on with Eucharist amidst the Coronovirus pandemic. Thanks, Cinadon 36 15:43, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
Some users are incapable of supporting their opinion, without attacking other users. Dr.K. above, constructed a strawman. He thinks my POV is to attack Greek Church and thus he resists my edits with various excuses. He is misrepresenting my argument. But regardless my POV or his POV (to support Greek Church) the matter is whether the claim that "Coronavirus can be transmitted by common communion cup" is an Original Thought. If it is, maybe I deserve a medical award for my Original Thinking in such a crucial domain. Dr.K. also claims that the addition is an unusual fixation, which is not, it is crystal clear that viruses can be transmitted through common cup per academic source given. If there are other pathways of transmission (through bread etc) it is irrelevant to the discussion, since at the article we are discussing the debate on common cup. Ktrimi991, I am not very willing to use your source, since it is not the very best available. I prefer academic sources than newspapers. But I think it is a last line solution. Cinadon 36 08:54, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Some users are incapable of supporting their opinion, without attacking other users.And then in typical weasel fashion you obliviously attack me repeatedly in you statement repeating the points I have discredited multiple times before. I will not repeat them again to rebut you useless argument. You cannot be prosecutor of the cup argument by bringing a source from 1998 to a recent 2020 coronavirus pandemic article, WP:CHERRYPICKING from that paper from 1998 while ignoring its flaws, to present a point that other editors here told you is irrelevant, since all cups are transmitters, not only the holy cup, as Blueboar told you, and, as Ktrimi told you, his source says an equivalent thing without the stench of WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:COATRACK. WP:POINT, and WP:POV. I repeat again: if others follow your POV, COATRACK etc., methodology, they will be bringing into this specialist article about Greece rebuttals from unrelated sources not only for the holy cup but also for the bread of the holy communion, the gold-plated spoon and its antiviral properties and/or transmissibility problems, the hands of the priest, etc.. It will be a COATRACKING SYNTH OR party. Also, your peculiar POV that newspapers are not RS but any flawed and irrelevant paper from 1998 making a useless argument against the holy cup, rather than all cups, is better, is something you have done multiple times before and you were successfully rebutted before on wiki. This is an ongoing problem but it is yours and not mine. Ktrimi's source is both relevant and excellent. You should learn from him. And make no mistake: Ktrimi's source is not mere RS. It also carries the verdict of professional medical bodies in Greece expressing their concerns regarding the stance of the GOC. The opinion of these bodies is both expert and relevant to the present crisis in Greece, unlike your homemade OR SYNTH CHERRYPICK POV job using the irrelevant 1998 source. Dr. K. 12:47, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Highlights that you are unfamiliar with RS., is a base WP:NPA that crosses over to rank stupidity. I have nothing to prove to you about RS. Dr. K. 14:32, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Despite the coronavirus outbreak, the Church of Greece announced that the Holy Communion, in which churchgoers eat pieces of bread soaked in wine from the same chalice, will continue as a practice.[30] The Holy Synod stated that the Holy Communion "cannot be the cause of the spread of illness", with Metropolitan Seraphim saying that the wine was without blemish because it represented the blood and body of Christ, and that "whoever attends Holy Communion is approaching God, who has the power to heal".[30] Attendance is especially high in the coming holiday season among the most elderly Greeks.[31] <PARA> The Church's stance prompted bitter criticism from the opposition Syriza party, with former health minister Pavlos Polakis asking "How can we halt gatherings such as the carnival, and allow people in churches to drink out of the same spoon?" and former leftist prime minister Alexis Tsipras blasting the church stance as "anti-scientific, anachronistic and a threat to public health".[32] ... Viral or bacterial infectious diseases can be transmitter from a common communion cup.[34]. There are better ways to say that, but that was the result of the ongoing fight about the section ........ Annnnnnnnd while we're talking "implicit" criticism, what about the implicit "praise"/"defence"? We have
In a statement in early March 2020, the governing Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Greece encouraged sick worshippers to "temporarily stay away from mass gatherings and avoid kisses and embraces."[41]-- well I did not remove this because it would be seen as POV-pushing but note that although this is indeed a case of the Church doing the right thing (placed in a section of criticism so as to mitigate it) this is also straying from the crux of the issue: which is criticism of the specific Church policy of proceeding with the Holy Communion as traditionally done (one priest, wine from same cup, same spoon) and issuing statements about the cup/wine being safe because it's Jesus blood/body, which are condemned as irresponsible by lefty politicians/medical professionals/scientists (the topic is not if people who already know they are sick should kiss/embrace/come to church -- no one has disputed they should not). now waiting to be attacked, meep -- Calthinus ( talk) 20:49, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
The Four Deuces, there is a recent article at Efsyn, (Efsyn is a RS greek newspaper), that tells that coronavirus can be transmitted through the common cup. That article cites the 1998 academic article. So there is someone that tells "Donald Trump was born in New York, the home of Son of Sam." Cinadon 36 06:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
"infectious diseases can be transmitted from a common communion cup.[34]"in an article about covid19, they are implying that source [34] is relevant to covid19. If it is not, then it is the editor drawing a conclusion, not the source. And finally, what makes this whole debate ridiculous to begin with is that there is no absence of sources that are about covid19 and make similar points. Someguy1221 ( talk) 01:25, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Specifically, the bibliography referred to is a 480-word public letter from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), written in 1998. The publication is not a product of a research process, but the adoption of earlier studies. It even contains bibliographical references of 1943 and 1967 1 . Its main reference is based on earlier research, in which a sample of 681 people of various ages was examined as to whether or not they attended church meetings and whether or not they received a "divine congregation" 2 .
Although the results are clear regarding the transport of germs through the sacred vessels, the researchers did not find an increased risk of transmission to the population using the implements of the holly communion. But this study has a number of methodological problems.
Initially, the period of sampling is not clearly stated. Viruses also have seasonal characteristics, with winter living conditions favoring transmission due to closer contact indoors and their poor ventilation. Still, personal hygiene becomes more neglected than in the summer months.
Researchers also did not study how rituals take place. The Catholics do not associate with the forceps from the common glass / mug and the priest places the unleavened unleavened bread, Ostia, in the mouth of the faithful, thereby reducing exposure to saliva. Finally, the investigation was conducted at a time when there was no outbreak or epidemic in the US. Even the spread of "bird flu" was then limited to Asia, Africa and Europe.
.
To me, it looks like a very flawed paper to base any short of conclusions about the cup, especially in this Greece-related article and about the Greek Church rituals. Dr. K. 13:14, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Please see:
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Labeling modern descendants of nobility with theoretical titles: NPOV, BLP, NOR and other policy problems.
It's as much about NOR as NPoV matters. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 00:30, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
If a governmental source describes that a feature is at a specific location and is of particular character (a lake, a village, or whatever) and it does not appear on a map consulted at that location (whether map is printed or a google maps), is it OR to conclude the source is in error? If the satellite imagery shows no water (if it's a lake) or buildings (if it's a settlement), is it OR to conclude the source is in error? Carlossuarez46 ( talk) 23:12, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
I'm in a dispute at Kafir ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) with new editor TomReagan90. Souniel Yadav inserted a quote from the Quran [20] which I reverted with the edit summary "editors shouldn't cherry-pick quotes from religious texts but find reliable sources discussing them and use the source, not the quote". TomReagan90, who I've only encountered before at Talk:Grace Blakeley, showed up and reverted me [21] with an edit summary "disagree. quote is illustrative and precisely in context". Knowing this editor has only just over 20 edits I assumed that they didn't understand our policies and guidelines saying "Sorry, but you are new and don't yet understand our policies and guidelines" and they replaced the quote saying "in my reading, it refer exactly to the secondary sources above and below it. what "policies and guidelines" are you referring to???". Given the discussion at the Grace Blakeley talk page I don't think this editor is interested in my opinion, so I'm bringing this here for uninvolved editors to comment. Doug Weller talk 14:55, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Most passages in the Quran referring to unbelievers in general talk about their fate on the day of judgement and destination in helland I just want to add this quotation from the Quran after that:
— Souniel Yadav ( talk) 19:43, 6 April 2020 (UTC)"Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings."[ Quran 98:6
Jeff6045 has been using original research allegations to revert my edits, which I do not think is original research. I cited academic books and peer-reviewed journals for my edits, but they were reverted by Jeff6045, who claims that these edits are original research. I would like some informed advice and opinion on whether these original research allegations made by Jeff6045 are in compliance with WP:OR.
Edit 1. [22] Revert 1 based on OR allegation. [23]
Edit 2. [24] Revert 2 based on OR allegation. [25]
Edit 3. [26] Revert 3 based on OR allegation. [27]
ps: Please don't forget to sign your comment. Jeff6045 ( talk) 07:22, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Specific case is the Background section of Christchurch mosque shootings, which goes into the issues of white supremacy and Muslim population of New Zealand at the time before the attack. There have been a few people on the talk page that believe that this section is very much original research because it is not material specifically discussed in conjunction with the attack and is being used to created a narrative, as well as a reliance on primary sources (as is seen by the current tags). Fresh pairs of eyes to judge if there's an issue here would help. -- Masem ( t) 14:01, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Infrastructure policy of Donald Trump ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Needs more eyes — article is packed with off-topic material in the OR/ SYNTH/ PRIMARY vein, including material on the 1970s oil crisis, the Paris Agreement, the Obama administration, etc., including citations to many sources that make little or no mention of Trump. Neutrality talk 16:06, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
It is being reported that Juneau County, Wisconsin has 265 positive COVID-19. Juneau County currently has 7 positive and 223 have been tested as of 4/16/20.
Canaan (son of Ham) [28], Hamites [29]. I've been reverted and my attempt to explain the issue to User:7Lybia7 seems to have failed. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 18:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Page:
Media coverage of Bernie Sanders (
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talk |
history |
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There is a disagreement about how to interpret the following:
Are the authors implying that this comparison this is how we determine if a candidate has been sufficiently covered or are they merely observing that as Sanders climbed in to polls, he was mentioned more often?
I am surprised that the mentions of Sanders was not higher. I don't know how someone could write about the Democratic primaries, which became a two person race between Clinton and Sanders, without mentioning both candidates.
TFD ( talk) 19:15, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
When I first read the article, I indeed interpreted the statement "Sanders’s share of news coverage far exceeded his share in national polls" as meaning he received more coverage than his share in the national polls would apparently warrant. In light of TFD's elaboration that share of coverage apparently refers to a certain number of mentions of Sanders in news coverage when he was one of two contenders for the Democratic nomination in 2016, I doubt that interpretation was correct. The authors may make this statement verbatim, yet the meaning of "share of news coverage" may be unclear. Are the authors actually telling us Bernie Sanders' share of news coverage was disproportionately greater than his poll numbers warranted? Unfortunately I don't have access to the book. If yes, the statement is fine. If no, then it seems obviously problematic to reproduce the statement without any context. Zloyvolsheb ( talk) 02:16, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I've attempted repeatedly in my article to draw attention to discrepancies between the DVD film narrative and what the liner notes say about it. I originally--and stupidly--failed to reference my 2 sources, and overtly asserted that the liner notes disagreed in key areas with the narrative as laid out in the film. After repeated arguments over whether saying the obvious constituted "original research", I changed tactics. I made a point of referencing my sources (It's been a long while since my last major article edit, so I was a little rusty on the rules about documentation), and, instead of asserting a difference, I instead explicitly compared and contrasted key points in the liner notes with info mentioned in the earlier "Narrative" section. I was simply showing what each "source" said, side by side, and letting readers do any inferring. That's OK, right? I've seen other articles "compare and contrast" sources and versions of stories without explicitly inferring a "difference" and those things haven't been erased.
Why is my text still being reverted? Is the mere intention of highlighting the differences unacceptable? Or is it simply that those differences unimportant or irrelevant? If it's the latter, I can accept that and move on. I do not accept, that simply doing a compare-and-contrast of referenced sources constitutes OR.
(Personally, I don't think that when a source, figuratively, says "2, and 2 more", then I can't say "4". Simple intellectual "arithmetic" (not to be confused with literal arithmetic) isn't OR. (??) Making an inference when there's a reasonable case for a different conclusion clearly IS, though. But I don't run this show. Maybe there's no room for "common sense" here.)(The previous aside isn't that important; bottom line: Can I use compare-and-contrast to implicitly make a case without saying so? I think readers have a right to know if the liner notes are "accurate".)
PS. I'd like to personally SHOW you what I said that was reverted, but I haven't mastered getting to recent previous article versions, so I can't. If you're not willing to check the article history itself, then at least address the theoretical issue raised here. ("Call of the Wild: Dog of the Yukon"; I keep trying to spell it right but I can't directly link to the article myself.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertGustafson ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
Comment There have now been ten separate topics initiated today at Talk:The Call of the Wild: Dog of the Yukon by this editor, all seemingly revolving around whether one editor can nitpic (I dare not say 'split hairs') over their desire to include in Wikipedia a curious fact that they have spotted a discrepancy between their copy of a DVD's liner notes and the actual plot of a film. Who is to say that they had a very early imprint, and many tens of thousands subsequently circulated are all perfectly correct? Who is to say that the discrepancy is in every single DVD copy ever produced? The answer to both these questions is RELIABLE and SECONDARY sources, and not this editor! Whilst applauding all editors' desires to improve articles, Wikipedia doesn't need people who spot trivial errors to list them in articles unless the world at large had taken note of them. Similarly, mentioning disclaimers about 'no animals were hurt in the making of this film' were totally unnecessary unless there was previously a public outcry and accusations that this film wascruel to animals. If independent film and video journalists have discussed these and other issues at length, then clearly they might then be relevant to the article. But what seems to be under discussion here is whether what RobertGustafson wants to insert into this film article is, or is not, WP:OR. I think it most definitely is, and also that it is WP:UNDUE and potentially damaging to an otherwise straightforward encyclopaedia article. The inclusion of this type of content should not be encouraged. Bonadea and Marchjuly have both tried to tell them this already. I am now adding my voice to concur. Nick Moyes ( talk) 21:05, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
~~~~
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Nick Moyes (
talk) 10:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
A descent, in this sense, is a chronological list of the owners of a piece of property, particularly a manor or large estate. In England the published Victoria County Histories (VCH) contain many descents, and these form the basis of some of our articles on the subject, e.g. Manor of Totteridge (see ref no 1); Hawkwood, London (see ref no 1). Descents are also published elsewhere, in historical journals etc., and these would obviously also be good reliable sources.
Most estates have passed through several families over the centuries and the details are often complicated by imperfect records, legal disputes etc., so that a correct descent can be difficult to work out (that's why people still write papers on them). My question, then, is - should we be publishing the descent of a manor/estate when one has not already been published by a reliable source?
Although many English counties have volumes of the VCH containing descents that can form the basis of content in our articles, Devon is one that does not (see Victoria County History#Dormant counties). Wikipedia does, however, have many articles that include detailed descents of manors and estates in Devon. Rather than these being based on other reliable sources that describe an entire descent, they have been pieced together from various sources such as the family pedigrees published by J.L Vivian in 1895 (see John Lambrick Vivian#Visitations of Devon); 300-year-old sources such as William Pole (antiquary)'s Collections... and Tristram Risdon's Survey...; Debrett's, Burke's, etc.; and various websites, newspapers, magazine articles and similar. For examples, see Manor of Bicton, Spridleston, Painsford, Ashprington. More are in Category:Former manors in Devon and Category:Historic estates in Devon.
Is this original research/synthesis? — SMALL JIM 19:32, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
An editor is attempting to include a flag, map and coat of arms to the info box of Majeerteen Sultanate and Sultanate of Hobyo that are not published by any reliable source. The editor failed to provide any published reliable source that included these files, and instead provided:
The editor was requested multiple times in the talk page to provide reliable sources that published the said files or remove them but they insist on inclusion despite failing to provide the sources. Any opinions? Koodbuur ( talk) 13:33, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Certain tetms and condom
On the page " Shooting of David Dorn", several editors have added a description of the accused shooter as African-American ( [38] [39] [40] [41] [42]). This description is not used in the source provided and appears to be original research. Even if the description is accurate it is still inappropriate to use without providing a reliable source that considers it noteworthy. CowHouse ( talk) 17:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
This. [43] It looks ok for general articles on the subject, but not for every article that involves a conspiracy theory. Doug Weller talk 19:08, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
See my concerns here: Talk:Early_21st-century_civil_rights_movement I think this very recently created and lengthy article is synthesizing current events into a narrative. I thought about nominating it for AfD, but thought I'd seek advice or input here first, given the sensitive nature of this topic. Crossroads -talk- 15:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Someone else nominated it for deletion. Crossroads -talk- 23:02, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Quasistellarprimate ( talk · contribs)
The 3x3x3 version of the game cannot end in a draw and is easily won by the first player unless a rule is adopted that prevents the first player from taking the center cell. In that case, the game is easily won by the second player. By banning the use of the center cell altogether, the game is easily won by the first player. By including a 3rd player, the perfect game will be played out to a draw. By including stochasticity in the choosing of the side the player must use, the game becomes fair and winnable by all players but is subject to chance. By making the choice of the player piece (x or o) subject to chance, the game becomes fair and winnable by all players. [1]
This problem can be solved by forbidding the players from making two consecutive moves in the same layer.
References
And at that point, they just didn't learn from the general note. Bringing the concern here since 2 reverts is edit warring. {{ reply to| Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 17:05, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Lockdown drama contains virtually no sourcing other than to a link to a newspaper article that quotes this very article's definition of a lockdown drama! It also has myriad other problems such a lack of context, no intro, and what attracted my attention is the wording has me concerned about possible copyvio as it reads like something taken from a textbook. 70.73.90.119 ( talk) 14:16, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
The following passage has been repeatedly restored, or its 'citation needed' markup eliminated by vague allusions to the Enc.Britannica.
Within Judaism there are a variety of movements, most of which emerged from Rabbinic Judaism, which holds that God revealed his laws and commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of both the Written and Oral Torah. <ref name="What is the oral Torah?" /> Historically, all or part of this assertion was challenged by various groups such as the Sadducees and Hellenistic Judaism during the Second Temple period
In my reading, there is nothing to warrant the unhistorical assertion that a movement that arose in the Ist century ce was challenged by two movements that predate it by some centuries, and which expired before Rabbinic Judaism was formed. Nishidani ( talk) 06:08, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Let me reframe this query which arose from examining a sentence that combines synthetically two articles from the EB to make a generalization (poorly written).
Let's focus on method and how core policy asks us to source articles. We have several hundred books and articles published each year on Judaism and its ancient history etc. Most are readily available, in libraries or on the net. In this context, is (a) https://torah.org/ Torah.org appropriate as a resource and (b) Should we use snippety articles on the Encyclopedia Britannica online version when, with equal rapidity, one can access up to date recent scholarly articles on everything here?
My view to (a) is no. I'd erase on sight any use of a website on Catholicism as an historical source, and the same should apply here.
As to (b) the default encyclopedia for this specific area is the magnificent Encyclopaedia Judaica which anyone can download, is written by experts, and, unlike the Britannica, is not interfered with by online anonymous contributors. If one is unfamiliar with the scholarship, then that is the encyclopedia to use. Nishidani ( talk) 09:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Whole issue revolves around this modification. The word "criticised" is not supported by any reference. Obviously because Criticism is different than that.
Main question is, on Wikipedia, should we describe a statement which is predictable and a part of regular attack against opposition political party as "criticism"? Or just say what source said. 2402:3A80:16A9:FD37:E68F:114D:5DA9:46D0 ( talk) 05:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I have a copy of a memoir written by a member of a WWII combat unit. It was printed and distributed to other unit members in 1972. The memoir adds details to events during and after the war in Europe. I can provide a PDF of the work. Is this type of firsthand source material acceptable? If so, how does one establish its authenticity for other editors to review and accept? NileCity ( talk) 14:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
There are concerns that have been raised about whether the article as a whole inappropriately synthesizes information from its sources. Looking for some insight on how to improve the draft.-- Prisencolin ( talk) 09:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
A user has been repeatedly removing an OSM location map that I have created at Dhola Post. I have recreated it in my sandbox so that you can actually see it. (OSM location maps don't show when viewing old versions in history.) Despite citing a reliable source and making adjustments as per the source, his objection persists. He says:
There is no "old" or "new" objection. There is only the same objection: the map was created by you and hence violates WP:NOR. Despite your penchant for technicalities, you admit that it was you who marked the locations on the map. You admit that it is you who "interprets old sketch maps." Therefore, the map created by you is WP:OR. The fact that we are arguing whether a map created by you constitutes "original" research is yet another example of the extreme dishonesty and bad faith discussion that you have repeatedly engaged in.
What would you say to that? -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 15:49, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Diannaa, this user appears to believe that you can copy and paste maps published in books. Can you tell us what we are allowed to do? -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 19:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
copying the details to OSM while maintaining as much accuracy as possible should be fine. I asked you,
What details can be accurately copied to OSM?Respectfully, you didn't answer.
Attempting to use fine details like coordinates based on visually copying the map is WP:OR.You may not agree with that in every case, but it must apply in this case when the original map has no coordinates and is not to scale. Erik-the-red ( talk) 12:39, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
There are multiple reference to Frank Ocean's possible birth name that came from original research by 1 user and this is not cited anywhere else, where there are articles that show his name to be "Christopher Edwin Breaux" [1].
Further, in his songs he uses his legal name for writing credits - "Christopher Breaux. [2]
The name Christopher Breaux was used for the songs "Cayendo" [3] and "Dear April" [4] which were released in 2020.
While there may be confusion about his birth name, it is clear he still uses "Christopher Breaux" as his legal name. Thus, shouldn't we only being his legal name, if we can't prove his birth name from a reliable source?
Doublebside ( talk) 19:58, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
References
More comments are requested at Talk:A.C.A.B.#Request for comment on text removed from ACAB article. Crossroads -talk- 23:25, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm in disagreement with QuakerIlK over whether the methodology and sourcing of Popular castles of Scotland constitutes original research. As far as I can tell, all the sources are primary, and their listings are tallied to arrive at a conclusion that is not in made in any source. I think that matches ours description of synthesis: to combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Before I take it to AfD, I'd appreciate feedback from uninvolved editors. Thanks, Vexations ( talk) 18:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
No original research (WP:NOR) – Wikipedia does not publish original thought... the policy should apply to any editor trying to introduce his or her own views into an article.This might not be per se as disruptive as trying to introduce an idiosyncratic new version of physics (which is why the policy was created) but nevertheless Wikipedia has determined that it is not the place where new ideas should be published. This "objective" ranking of castles based on website mentions is a new idea. I hope I've explained the policy more thoroughly and its application to this article. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 02:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
More comments are requested at Talk:Falkland_Islanders#Request_for_comment_on_whether_the_claim_"Falklanders_can_claim_Argentine_citizenship"_is_OR_and_violates_NPOV. Thanks.
Boynamedsue ( talk) 12:08, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I work for Nestlé Purina PetCare, which owns Petfinder, a pet adoption website. Recently, @ TruthInAdverts: inserted a paragraph in the lead of Petfinder alleging the website has banned and regulated small charities in favor of "wealthy" ones. The paragraph goes on to describe a specific situation where Petfinder revoked the account of a long-time user and asked for more documentation. Under the circumstances (no citations, SPA, etc.), I suspect the paragraph represents the personal observations and opinions of the user. As I have a conflict of interest, I would like to kindly request impartial, un-involved editors take a look. The paragraph in question is as follows:
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In 2020, Petfinder began strictly regulating how 501c3 animal welfare organizations can offer adoptable animals on its website. Courtesy listings--the practice of helping find homes for pets in need without physically intaking them into a shelter or other rescue environment, thereby lowering the animals' risk factors--were banned so that these charities could no longer implement best practices of Intake Diversion by helping the public find good homes for pets in need without having to leave them in a shelter. In 2020, Petfinder also began attempting to regulate animal welfare organizations' internal policies and procedures by restricting what kinds of policies 501c3 rescues and animal welfare organizations could create and implement; for example Petfinder placed in its Terms of Service that these organizations are not allowed to charge an "application fee". This resulted in some disadvantaged charities no longer being able to cover the costs of their expenses involved in processing applications, resulting in less time and resources available to spend on applications and marginalizing smaller, non-wealthy charities in favor of larger, wealthy ones. In one documented incident, Petfinder "deactivated" one 501c3 charity's longtime membership over a false accusation, and refused to reinstate it even after Petfinder acknowledged via email no evidence to substantiate the accusation. The charity filed a complaint with the parent company, Nestle Purina, and Petfinder responded by again emailing the charity, notifying it that Petfinder was aware that a complaint call had been made, and then instead of working with the charity amicably to resolve the situation, Petfinder added additional accusations and demands of more documents of the member organization, including a demand to see a copy of the charity's adoption contract in order to prove a name change. The charity pointed out that IRS determination letters, not adoption contracts, are how name changes are confirmed, but Petfinder did not respond and instead left the charity's membership deactivated. https://pro.petfinder.com/tos/ |
Thank you in advance for your time and attention to this matter. Laurasprecklee ( talk) 19:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
The content that is being mass removed in these three edits and being resotored in these two due to the content being contested as “unverifiable”, “original research”, “synthesis”, and “fancruft”, despite attempts to verify it on the talk page being ignored by the removing editors. From what I understand of what these mean, they mean anything that is not explicitly stated by source material, which most of the content is from what I’ve seen of this series. I recently discovered this noticeboard, and I want to verify on whether the edits being mass removed here qualify as what Drmies and Serial Number 54129 (who I do not want to ping based on threatening comments) are saying they are. Unnamed anon ( talk) 13:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
A user keeps trying to insert material that deviates from the given source into the article Dog whistle (politics). This is after it was rejected by RfC as part of a much more extensive set of original research. I'm fine with more perspectives and discussion of false accusations but this just seems like a flagrant violation of policy to me. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 11:29, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
While many people might hear 'international banks' quite literally... anti-Semites hear something very different. After all, the supposed existence of a cabal of international Jewish bankers working to undermine US democracy is a recurring theme in American anti-Semitism.
We all constantly litter our speech and writing with messages that will be fully received only by those who share our verbal and conceptual associations. But we don't usually do this in order to create a Straussian double message, an esoteric wolf in an exoteric sheepskin. We do this because we can't help it, it's how language works, and also how thought works. New ideas and new discourses are built out of fragments of old ones. As a result, almost everything that we say or write is a 'dog whistle': even if the basic meaning is clear to everyone, some people will pick up on implications that are lost to others.
"[Dog whistles] are generally used to convey messages on issues likely to provoke controversy without attracting negative attention. One example may be use of the phrase 'family values' to signal to Christians that a candidate would support policies promoting Christian values, without alienating non-Christian supporters. Accusations of dog whistling are, by their nature, hard to prove and may be false. One example may be the use of the phrase 'international banks' to signal to racists that a candidate is antisemetic without alienating non-racist supporters."
I believe that the above discussion makes it abundantly clear that there is no original research involved, and the discussion has degraded into arguing about a content dispute. I suggest closing this discussion and directing the participants to the article talk page. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 13:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
There are currently discussion in the article talk page could be sources discussing dhimmi used in Dhimmitude. In my opinion it two diffent concepts one is muslim term the other is neologism though derived from it is different.Opening such door would open various WP:OR about the neologism -- Shrike ( talk) 13:08, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Here's a link to the page I'll be discussing: Music of Polynesia
I am brand new to editing Wikipedia pages - as in, I have never done it before - but when I saw this page I knew I needed to do something about it. I'm posting it here because of the subjective and unverified assertions at the top, which is what I saw first, but on closer inspection the page is flawed in many ways. I really think this page is important and I want it to be improved but since I don't know what I'm doing I'm going to post this here and hopefully someone can point me in the right direction. I don't particularly want to research this topic myself, I just want the page to be flagged for editing, for those disclaimers to appear on the page (which ones would fit, by the way?) and for a discussion about it to be started somewhere. Let me know if this is the wrong place to put this and I will move it. Here's what's wrong
This section is copied from the introduction: "Internationally, Polynesian music is mostly associated with twinkling guitars, grass skirts and beautiful relaxing sounds, Hawaiian Hula and other tourist-friendly forms of music.[citation needed] While these elements are justifiably a part of Polynesian history and Polynesian culture, there is actually a wide variety of music made in the far-flung reaches of Polynesia." There is a "citation needed" thingy, but I think until someone finds a source to cite, it needs to be taken down! I understand the sentiment and I agree with it, but I don't come to Wikipedia to see this kind of original discourse.
I don't have much to say about this because it already has a disclaimer thingy, but the most egregious violation of this is of course the "far-flung reaches of Polynesia" that is also in the introduction. The whole intro should just be scrapped imo. Can I just do that, or is that not allowed? The rest of the article also frequently mentions Hawaii, which seems slightly indicative of a less-than-worldwide view, but I don't mind that very much at all because there is so little information about anything here.
This ties in with the original research but there are other parts of the article that need inline citations too. This could be a simple enough fix but to be honest, I don't really want to bother, especially because....
It's a stub. Here's everything the article actually includes:
Most of the pages for the different islands of Polynesia are in this category and contain way more information than this one. That could be summarized and included here under different headings for different islands! And also this category here has lots of information that could be included. Oh, and the two links I put in this paragraph weren't working as internal links so I formatted them as external links. ~figayda~ ( talk) 23:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
This is a relatively new article that could use some extra eyes: Weinstein is a somewhat well-known figure who has done a number of interviews about this campaign, but I have found very little reliable secondary sourcing on it. The closest I can find is this brief discussion of the campaign on Reason.com.
Barring additional sources, it might make sense to just merge everything in to Bret Weinstein's bio page, since he appears to be the main public figure associated with the project. Any other ideas would be welcome. Nblund talk 02:19, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm looking for some assistance in reviewing SpaceX_Merlin#Gas_Generator for original research and synthesis. My interpretation is that almost all of the section is OR. As of this writing, the section reads:
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The LOX/RP-1 turbopump on each Merlin engine is powered by a fuel-rich open-cycle gas generator similar to that used in the Apollo-era Rocketdyne F-1 engine.[39] During tests of that engine (ca. 1966), Rocketdyne showed[40] that open-cycle RP-1 gas generators of this type yield 20 - 200 pounds of class-1 carcinogens, such as benzene and butadiene,[41][42][43][44] per ton of RP-1 fuel. Note that by the current date, the thermal-cracking/condensation-polymerization chemistry of fuel-rich aliphatic hydrocarbon combustion has been well-understood for decades.[45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56] Due to their toxicity, these combustion products are now legally regulated within the US, providing community and worker health protections which did not exist during the Apollo era.[57][58][59][60][61] During free-flight of the Falcon launch vehicle in the lower troposphere, the extremely hot main-engine exhaust and substantial partial pressure of atmospheric oxygen are observed to ignite and burn off the gas generator exhaust. However, during the test-stand and launch-stand (pre-lift-off) water deluges, as well as in-flight at altitudes above the mid-stratosphere,[62][63][64] this post-combustion is extinguished, and these chemicals, tars,[65] and soot are released to the atmospheric and space environments.[66] Rocket engine thrust chemistry models and mechanisms exclude large toxic molecules such as benzene and butadiene,[67][68][69] and SpaceX Environmental Assessments[70][71][72][73][74] provide no data on this important chemistry for environment, community, and worker protection.[75][76] |
I've had some conversations with the editor ( User:67.61.89.32) on the talk page that has gone nowhere, and I'm not sure what the next step is. Quoting from my last post to the talk page: Taken together, the chain of logic [in this section] reads to me to be something like: "This gas generator of this old engine produced output which we now know to be potentially harmful. The gas generator used in this engine shares some design features with this old one. SpaceX should know that this harm is possible. They haven't done anything to prove that the harm isn't occurring. Therefore, communities and workers are threatened and should be worried about the Merlin engine." If this argument were made in a reliable secondary source, I would be happy to have it included here. If components of this discussion were included in more general pages, I would be happy to see them. But I don't see a way to include this specific chain of logic without violating WP:NOR and WP:NPOV.
I really don't want to get into an edit war here -- I've deleted the content a couple of times over the past couple of weeks and the other editor has restored it. Am I way off base here? Any help in figuring out next steps? Themillofkeytone ( talk) 23:13, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
At least two users have restored this commentary on a photo used in the article; despite the recent additions inclusion of a source (a primary source that's not specifically about the photo), it still looks unambiguously WP:SYNTH to me; bringing here for additional opnions. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:15, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
In the article intro, we've got Margaret described as Queen-designate. That description appears to be original research, to me. GoodDay ( talk) 18:29, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
I would like to get feedback from uninvolved editors in a discussion [51] at the BLP Noticeboard about Ariel Fernandez that involves SYNTH concerns. Morbidthoughts ( talk) 14:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
I would like to get some assistance on original research edits being done on Sanskrit page by Fowler&fowler. The editor is changing about 19 references to "Indian Subcontinent" on the basis of google search results on google books. The talk page here [ talk page] has the discussions on these changes.
The editor uses the following original research on google books as a support to replace "Indian Subcontinent" with "South Asia":
In doing so, the editor does WP:SYNTH synthesis on several sentences:
The first line of the lead section was previous this way:
Sanskrit ( /ˈsænskrɪt/; Sanskrit: संस्कृतम्, romanized: saṃskṛtam) [1] IPA: [ˈsɐ̃skr̩tɐm] ⓘ) is an Indo-Aryan or Indic [2] language of the ancient Indian subcontinent with a 3,500-year history. [3] [4] [5]
The cited references mention about Indian subcontinent:
Although Vedic documents represent the dialects then found in the northern midlands of the Indian subcontinent and areas immediately east thereof, the very earliest texts—including the Rigveda (“The Veda Composed in Verses”), which scholars generally ascribe to approximately 1500 bce—stem from the northwestern part of the subcontinent - https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sanskrit-language
For 3500 years Sanskrit was the language of religion, philosophy, medicine, math, astronomy and literature of every branch of learning not only in India, but also in every other region influenced by the Indian culture. -- Murray, T. (2007). Milestones in archaeology : a chronological encyclopedia. Santa Barbara, Calif. ; Oxford: Abc-Clio.
References
The references to "Indian Subcontinent" are being replaced with "South Asia" based on the above original research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaykul72 ( talk • contribs) 7 october 2020 (UTC)
There is a policy application discussion over at Talk:List of largest empires#Empire of Japan. The question is whether a particular instance of using personal communication with an author to assess the reliability of a source for a specific piece of information found within is appropriate. Complicating the matter is the fact that the source in question is not the original source of that particular piece of information; an earlier source which is not reliable when it comes to this particular subject matter per WP:RSCONTEXT has been found, and it contains the same piece of information while citing an even earlier source which we have been unable to locate (and thus may or may not be reliable).
The discussion on the talk page has stagnated, and I would like input from more editors weighing in on this. I was unsure if WP:RSN or WP:NORN was the more appropriate place for this, so I posted it to both. TompaDompa ( talk) 23:32, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
There is a new editor on this page who does not like it that the article states that ECHR is the most effective international human rights court in the world, even though it is cited in line and several sources are quoted on the talk page to support this statement. The editor has not cited any sources that have a different assessment, but keep changing it based on their subjective opinion that this is not the case. Since they refuse to engage on the talk page, I am at my wits' end dealing with this editor. Any help is appreciated. ( t · c) buidhe 17:09, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
This template seemed like original research to me, but you may have information that shows otherwise. Please comment.
jps ( talk) 17:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I would appreciate input at Talk:Confucius Institute regarding material recently added to the article by GrandmasterLiuHu. Specifically, one of the references that he or she added was written in the late 19th century but the article is about an institute founded in the 21st century. Another reference that was added is to a general philosophical encyclopedia article that makes no mention of the subject of the article. Thanks! ElKevbo ( talk) 16:57, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
I started a discussion at Talk:2020 United States presidential election to try to achieve a consensus well before the election about how we are going to update the map and infobox. Most of the !votes at that discussion are in favor of waiting until 3+ reliable news sources project a state before adding that state to the map and infobox. I demonstrated that even under this proposal, it would be possible for us to call the race for a candidate as the winner (projected president-elect) even before any reliable news organization projects that a candidate has won. Due to this, another user said that this specifically would be a WP:SYNTH violation. I said that it would likely be fine due to WP:CALC, but they disagreed. I pointed out that if WP:CALC does not apply with regards to calling the race before the media does- then WP:CALC probably still wouldn't allow us to say a candidate has for example "266 electoral votes" based on combining projections from news organizations, when no news organization's tally has the candidate at 266 electoral votes. I suggested an Associated Press only infobox/map (since many news organizations rely on the AP) as a possible alternative that could alleviate WP:SYNTH concerns, but so far there hasn't been much support for that suggestion. If any experienced users here could help us determine to what degree WP:SYNTH applies vs. WP:CALC, that would be most helpful. Thanks! Prcc27 ( talk) 21:07, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
For several weeks now, members of WikiProject Motorsport have been debating the meaning of the Sporting Regulations for the World Rally Championship. These are the rules produced by the governing body of motorsport, the FIA. The passage in question is Article 26, which reads as follows:
26. SEASONALLY ALLOCATED COMPETITION NUMBERS
26.1 MANUFACTURERS
P1 drivers may request a specific number provided that the application is endorsed by the FIA and the Promoter. Number 1 may only be chosen by the World Champion driver of the previous season. Requested numbers may not be greater than 99.
26.2 OTHER DRIVERS
Competition numbers shall be allocated rally by rally, according to the provisional classification of the Championships concerned.
It is this idea of "seasonally allocated competition numbers" that is proving problematic. One of the editors involved, Tvx1, put forward the following interpretation of Article 26:
Having taken another look at the sources in the article, as well as at the sporting regulations, I'm no longer convinced that these drivers/crews have chosen career numbers. Neither the sources, nor the regulations mention "career numbers". They all actually talk about season/seasonal numbers. It seems like they only reserve a number for the duration of a season. While it is likely that crews will pick the same numbers over multiple seasons, we can't really be certain of that.
His argument is that because the section is referred to as "seasonally allocated" numbers, that means a driver chooses a number for one year at which point they need to reapply for that number. I believe this to be original research on his part for the following reasons:
wrc "seasonal numbers", the only hits I get related to the subject are the WT:MOTOR discussion where Tvx1 made his claim.
Furthermore, the FIA website details the specific changes to the Sporting Regulations year on year. This passage outlines the nature of Article 26:
In order to give consistent identity to drivers and assist with promotion, Priority 1 drivers will be free to choose their permanent car number from 2019, except number 1, which will always be reserved for the reigning World Rally Champion.
This specifically refers to "permanent numbers" rather than "seasonal numbers". I have requested that both Tvx1 and Pelmeen10—who supported his interpretation—share any sources that they have to substatiate the "seasonal numbers" argument. They have either refused, ignored the request, or claimed that the burden rests with those who disagree with them.
In the past week, a new source has become available: the entry list for the first round of 2020. It shows that two drivers (Sébastien Loeb and Takamoto Katsuta) are competing with different numbers to the ones they used in 2019. This source was not available at the time Tvx1 made his claim. Tvx1 is claiming that this proves him right; however, the entry list only shows that the numbers have changed. It does not explain how the number changes came about. I believe this to be synthesis.
There are three things that I would like to see happen in this discussion:
Finally, I know that this seems like a very minor thing to come to a noticeboard for. However, the discussion is taking place at WikiProject Motorsport (rather than WikiProject World Rally) and so has the potential to affect every single article within the scope of WP:MOTOR. Mclarenfan17 ( talk) 10:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
I believe that Tvx1 and Pelmeen did engage in original research but they're not anymore as more sources have come to light.
Please provide a diff were I made that specific claim?
What evidence did you ever provide that supported your claim that these numbers were supposedly fixed for their entire careers?
Ogier's Citroen team-mate Esapekka Lappi will carry #4 in his first season with the French manufacturer...;
A number was not assigned to Sebastien Loeb, who is currently competing on the Dakar Rally, at the unveiling, but the nine-time world champion's Hyundai will carry #19 on its six outings this season.). Yet for some reason you utterly refuse to accept that even though no one agrees with you. T v x1 23:12, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
It seems like they only reserve a number for the duration of a season.
The only claim I actually made is that we had insufficient evidence to support the content.
They all actually talk about season/seasonal numbers. It seems like they only reserve a number for the duration of a season.
Mclarenfan17, while you insisted us to provide sources that car numbers can change, you yourself failed to provide evidence that they stay the same. The sources you provided do not explain what is a "permanent number", and now with the number changes we know it was premature to write those wrong numbers in the first place. Content of Wikipedia should not be poorly sourced. You did the same thing with writing the "WRC-2 Pro" championship will run in 2020. Remember that you wrote in May that the championship will run, while is reality it does not. The false info stayed in the article for 6 months, when on 5th of October I finally removed it. Then you demanded sources and consensus from me. Talk:2020_World_Rally_Championship/Archive_1#WRC-2_Pro_in_2020 [4] [5]. Now I ask do you understand what All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports[2] the contribution.[3] Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source means? Do you plan to write poorly sourced content in the future? Pelmeen10 ( talk) 01:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
The sources you provided do not explain what is a "permanent number", and now with the number changes we know it was premature to write those wrong numbers in the first place.
Now I ask do you understand what All content must be verifiable
Do you plan to write poorly sourced content in the future?
Why would anyone have to provide a source not to include content?
You were the one would included content in an article without any source correctly supporting it
My edits to a page concerning the scientific validity of a published book were rejected by Matt18224 based on the no original research and inappropriate synthesis standard. Here is the link to the original text of my edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Alex_Berenson&diff=prev&oldid=938805711 As I have published quite a bit in scientific journals,accuracy of sourcing is very familiar to me. Nothing that I presented was original research in my edit, though all of it was original research on the part of the authors cited. The assertions I make about their work are assertions they present themselves in their published paper. It is unbelievable to me that Matt18224 would have read the links I provided in the space of two hours and determined that my description of the work went beyond what was published therein. The meaning of synthesis I am less clear on, as any bringing together of scientific facts to construct a useful scientific page on Wiki involves the act of bringing the facts together to educate.
What is most alarming is that the current posting relevant to the science of the book in question (Tell Your Children) is completely one sided and relies on journalists who have quoted one set of scientists, some of whom have a vested financial interest in the topic at hand (are members of cannabis company advisory boards).
I think discussion of Tell Your Children should evolve into a pro-con format, wherein all posts are allowed that provide good sourcing and are not defamatory, etc. If nothing were to be edited out (except by the poster) then the public would benefit from being exposed to the disparate views.
Please advise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MomwithaPhD ( talk • contribs) 20:12, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Several maps have been raised for deletion discussion on Commons which appear to be entirely original research. These are used in multiple articles and presented as if they are published maps from peer-reviewed research. At best, they appear to have been generated from open forum discussions and 'creatively' interpreting data sets which would never have provided sufficient detail to draw fine zoning lines. Raising here for the general principle, as such user creations might end up being hosted on Commons, but using them in any Wikipedia article seems to break WP:OR and they probably should be systematically removed.
The Haplogroup R1b map, shows detailed map zoning which does not seem to be based on any declared dataset (correction, 11 sources were vaguely quoted, along with "etc"). This map is currently illustrating:
-- Fæ ( talk) 15:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
This R1b map is the single illustration for Haplogroup R-L151, and there is no indication of why the zones are marked exactly in the way they are. This is apparently the views of the map uploader, not because any source defines data this way. -- Fæ ( talk) 15:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
This is the infobox illustration for Haplogroup N-M231. No sources have been produced to show how it was created. -- Fæ ( talk) 15:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
This is a case where the source is reliable but I think is being interpreted in an original way. The edit [6] is:
Recent research by John Koch describes Ireland as a "fully paid member of the Atlantic Late Bronze age with south-west Iberia". John Kochs recent research also calls into question the dismissal, "as an invention", that the Gaels (Milesians) originated in the Iberian Peninsula. [1]
The source states: On the other hand, both Ireland and south-west Iberia had been ‘fully paid-up members’ of the Atlantic Late Bronze Age. It has long been recognised that the V-notched shields, leaf-shaped swords and ogival-headed spears of the Iberian warrior stelae have close counterparts among actual artefacts of the Irish late Bronze Age. Therefore, if we can reorientate our thinking away from Hallstatt and La Tène to look instead at Ireland’s overseas affinities during its spectacularly wealthy late Bronze Age, the fact that Tartessos should now be giving up some of its mysteries in a language comparable to Irish may not be so surprising. It will not be the first or the last ironic twist of intellectual history for a Celtic Tartessos to appear on the horizon after the Spanish provenance of the Gaels (as per the Book of Invasions) has lost its last shred of credibility."
I can't see what "fully paid member..." adds to the article(I'm guessing the editor sees this as an argument for something) or where Koch's research (or his last sentence) "calls into question the dismissal, "as an invention", that the Gaels (Milesians) originated in the Iberian Peninsula.". Doug Weller talk 16:11, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
References
I have pointed this out before. the page is unable to be edited with any new sources unless revolves around apaper by Carey in 1994. there is currenlty 17 citations of that work on the page with more hidden in collections of Celtic works.. using the small stable of acceptable sources one being Koch , who earlier in his career was dismissive of the Link between Ireland and Spain, has now changed his mind, Doug has issues with this update in Kochs research.. dna and archaeology has confirmed the link between Ireland, Iberia and Spain based on language, dna in cairns or burial sites.
what Koch says here cant be clearer..
however i had little time to include other sources today as Doug took issue and reverted back before i had time to include.
the page has a very biased POV based on the insistence of using careys old work.. feel free to read the "talk" to get a better undertsanding of the issues.
Gemmathegael (
talk) 17:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Koch is the source that was on the page when i first started editing, Doug Weller does not like new sources, even newer work from the same person. Most researchers change their minds faced with new evidence, in this case language, metalwork and DNA . I think Doug Weller wants to keep a POV on the document and is unwilling to let me edit, hence the edit war. which is quite frankly off for a " mod" who has been using wiki for so long. I am a new user. The problem even today is he reverted again today without waiting until i added more citations or feedback. Conditions i was placed under... see talk page by Doug Weller was " all my sources must fit a certain criteria he decided" , even when I edit, as today, with sources that fit this narrow criteria he has issues.. as of today I have 3 messages from him on my talk page with more requirements, a reversion, chasing up some issue he has with a source here, accusations of something else I'm not quite sure of with " by text he brought here" its a she btw..
Maybe if i had time to include sources instead of responding on the talk page against what i find was extremly discriminatory remarks,including on Christian writers and had to remind him of the code of ethics wiki should uphold.
btw not quite sure what he means by "text he brought here".. can he elaborate on that one.. the time stamp in the editing of the page and the history notes show i edited prior to him posting here.. me @ 16:01. I am at a loss what he means, maybe someone can explain what it is
to sum it up... i added the link to clarify Kochs point and to correct what was seen to be a copyright issue.its hard to keep up. I feel he reverted as he didnt like the new source as it contradicts his POV. I am new to wiki and it will take me a few days to get up to speed with things, in the meantime i would prefer not to be messaged multiple times a day over small edits, or some other issue that can be dealt with in a civil manner. I would prefer to have a little time to edit before everything is reverted on minor issues.
to clarify the two sources i provided clarify the new position of Koch.. Gemmathegael ( talk) 19:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
btw as a new user i am still trying to work out how to edit references so as not to infringe copyright and maybe then, and given the space I can add more of what Koch wrote... this hounding in relentless Gemmathegael ( talk) 19:55, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
User AldezD has been adding seemingly WP:OR/ WP:SYNTHESIS material onto Deal or No Deal (American game show), showing no signs of stopping after multiple warnings. I've tried to give warnings about the original research, instead getting a, "Knock it off and don't template me." on my talk page.
In regards to the problem itself, as I've just pointed out in a reply on my talk page, the tweet in question states nothing about the show's cancellation. All the tweet is saying is that the account is not active, and to follow @CNBCPrimeTV, which as I also stated, says, "Home of #BackintheGame, #CashPad, @dealnodealcnbc, @LenosGarage, @TheProfitCNBC, @AmericanGreedTV & more!" in the bio. There is nothing said about the show's cancellation and no WP:RS (apart from the tweet) about the show's cancellation, leading this to be complete original research.
However, the user continues to ignore any/all warnings, reverting back to the WP:OR every time. What should be done here? A tweet about the account no longer being active does not equate to the show being cancelled, especially with no other source for it. Thanks in advance. Magitroopa ( talk) 17:44, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Good afternoon, I am here to report what I suspect to be a case of original research on the article Macedonian Blood Wedding. Please note that I am new to Wikipedia so I am not entirely sure if it would classify as such. It namely has to do with the following edits [7] and [8]. First of all, all three of the sources cited to support the fact that Macedonian was considered a Bulgarian dialect do not even mention the play in question. In my opinion, that topic is how the Macedonian language was viewed at the time, which is more pertinent to articles like Macedonian language, Macedonian language naming dispute and Political views on the Macedonian language. One of my other concerns with those sources is that they contain super lengthy excerpts which are again completely unrelated to the article. The same applies to sources six and seven which again do not even mention Macedonian Blood Wedding. Secondly, another one of the sources the editor uses to support his claim , namely this one does not seem as the most reliable material to me; it is from a website called promacedonia.org and again, it does not even mention the play nor its author (it is in Bulgarian so someone else who speaks the language can confirm that). So it seems to me that User: Jingiby tries to add a very biased, personal view of the language of the book. I agree that if there are any reliable and academic sources which mention the language used specifically related to the book, they should be mentioned in the article, however this user does not seem to provide them. Thank you very much in advance for considering this entry. P.S He also reverted my reverts to his edits so that is why I am taking the issue here. DD1997DD ( talk) 12:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussions are requested to have community-wide attention:
Talk:2019–20 Wuhan coronavirus outbreak
For the coronavirus outbreak, should we utilize the graph that shows "cases deaths and recoveries", the "case fatality rate" in a graph, both, or none, or an "epidemic curve" per WP:MEDRS WP:OR and WP:CALC -- Almaty ( talk) 06:23, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Race and intelligence#Requested move 4 March 2020. Levivich dubious – discuss 19:46, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2020/June#Synthesis, POV. Gyrofrog (talk) 20:39, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Art Deco article appears to have large amount of original research and synthesis. For example, let us start with first paragraph in Cubist influence. It says Cubism appeared between 1907 and 1912 influencing development of Art Deco, source quoted makes no mention of Art Deco. Third paragraph in same section explains what Art Deco will be in future, but quotes source from 1912. There is no chance that source could know what Art Deco will be. Moving on to the Influence section, again entire paragraph quotes source from 1905. I think there is considerable number of sources that make no mention of Art Deco at all and are used in the article with original research and synthesis, considerable number of text has no source at all. Sauvahge ( talk) 23:17, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
I recently created a RfC for Markovian Parallax Denigrate. Please give your input. Veverve ( talk) 23:10, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2020_March_16#File:The_black_hammer.gif . Does including the Book Cover on a book that Ezra Taft Benson wrote the foreword to constitute OR? Epachamo ( talk) 02:58, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Newslack: has added a large “Controversy” section to Taiwan News which is almost entirely synthesis and OR. I have tried to address the concerns on the talk page in good faith but I’ve been accused of being disruptive by the other editor including for adding citation needed tags to unsourced material they introduced into the article so I thought I’d bring it here as its going nowhere there. There was one relevant article among the ones they cited and I attempted to accurately summarize just that article [11] but I was reverted and they went back to hyperbole and synth. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 15:55, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Looking at the page
as it exists right now, there is indeed original research in the controversy section. The first example is Taiwan News is known for sensationalism and unreliable reporting, which was particularly egregious during the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic.[6]
While the cited source calls out Taiwan News for specific examples egregious, unreliable and sensational reporting regarding the pandemic, it does not state that the news source is "known for" this type of reporting. That statement is clearly the conclusion of a Wikipedia editor based on the source, rather than the conclusion of the source itself.
The second example of original research is in the paragraph regarding sulfur dioxide levels in Wuhan. While one of the cited sources explicitly refutes a Taiwan News article on this claim, the other source does not. Neither of the two sources refer to one another, either. It is therefore a Wikipedia editor's conclusion that the second source refutes the claims made by Taiwan News, which is not something we are allowed to do. Someguy1221 ( talk) 06:48, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Ok, but if deleting one of two debunking sources would allow us all to move on and not come back, using up even more time, then I can do so. Newslack ( talk) 17:51, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Note that the debate came into light in Greece recently, when Church decided to carry on with Eucharist amidst the Coronovirus pandemic. Thanks, Cinadon 36 15:43, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
Some users are incapable of supporting their opinion, without attacking other users. Dr.K. above, constructed a strawman. He thinks my POV is to attack Greek Church and thus he resists my edits with various excuses. He is misrepresenting my argument. But regardless my POV or his POV (to support Greek Church) the matter is whether the claim that "Coronavirus can be transmitted by common communion cup" is an Original Thought. If it is, maybe I deserve a medical award for my Original Thinking in such a crucial domain. Dr.K. also claims that the addition is an unusual fixation, which is not, it is crystal clear that viruses can be transmitted through common cup per academic source given. If there are other pathways of transmission (through bread etc) it is irrelevant to the discussion, since at the article we are discussing the debate on common cup. Ktrimi991, I am not very willing to use your source, since it is not the very best available. I prefer academic sources than newspapers. But I think it is a last line solution. Cinadon 36 08:54, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Some users are incapable of supporting their opinion, without attacking other users.And then in typical weasel fashion you obliviously attack me repeatedly in you statement repeating the points I have discredited multiple times before. I will not repeat them again to rebut you useless argument. You cannot be prosecutor of the cup argument by bringing a source from 1998 to a recent 2020 coronavirus pandemic article, WP:CHERRYPICKING from that paper from 1998 while ignoring its flaws, to present a point that other editors here told you is irrelevant, since all cups are transmitters, not only the holy cup, as Blueboar told you, and, as Ktrimi told you, his source says an equivalent thing without the stench of WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:COATRACK. WP:POINT, and WP:POV. I repeat again: if others follow your POV, COATRACK etc., methodology, they will be bringing into this specialist article about Greece rebuttals from unrelated sources not only for the holy cup but also for the bread of the holy communion, the gold-plated spoon and its antiviral properties and/or transmissibility problems, the hands of the priest, etc.. It will be a COATRACKING SYNTH OR party. Also, your peculiar POV that newspapers are not RS but any flawed and irrelevant paper from 1998 making a useless argument against the holy cup, rather than all cups, is better, is something you have done multiple times before and you were successfully rebutted before on wiki. This is an ongoing problem but it is yours and not mine. Ktrimi's source is both relevant and excellent. You should learn from him. And make no mistake: Ktrimi's source is not mere RS. It also carries the verdict of professional medical bodies in Greece expressing their concerns regarding the stance of the GOC. The opinion of these bodies is both expert and relevant to the present crisis in Greece, unlike your homemade OR SYNTH CHERRYPICK POV job using the irrelevant 1998 source. Dr. K. 12:47, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Highlights that you are unfamiliar with RS., is a base WP:NPA that crosses over to rank stupidity. I have nothing to prove to you about RS. Dr. K. 14:32, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Despite the coronavirus outbreak, the Church of Greece announced that the Holy Communion, in which churchgoers eat pieces of bread soaked in wine from the same chalice, will continue as a practice.[30] The Holy Synod stated that the Holy Communion "cannot be the cause of the spread of illness", with Metropolitan Seraphim saying that the wine was without blemish because it represented the blood and body of Christ, and that "whoever attends Holy Communion is approaching God, who has the power to heal".[30] Attendance is especially high in the coming holiday season among the most elderly Greeks.[31] <PARA> The Church's stance prompted bitter criticism from the opposition Syriza party, with former health minister Pavlos Polakis asking "How can we halt gatherings such as the carnival, and allow people in churches to drink out of the same spoon?" and former leftist prime minister Alexis Tsipras blasting the church stance as "anti-scientific, anachronistic and a threat to public health".[32] ... Viral or bacterial infectious diseases can be transmitter from a common communion cup.[34]. There are better ways to say that, but that was the result of the ongoing fight about the section ........ Annnnnnnnd while we're talking "implicit" criticism, what about the implicit "praise"/"defence"? We have
In a statement in early March 2020, the governing Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Greece encouraged sick worshippers to "temporarily stay away from mass gatherings and avoid kisses and embraces."[41]-- well I did not remove this because it would be seen as POV-pushing but note that although this is indeed a case of the Church doing the right thing (placed in a section of criticism so as to mitigate it) this is also straying from the crux of the issue: which is criticism of the specific Church policy of proceeding with the Holy Communion as traditionally done (one priest, wine from same cup, same spoon) and issuing statements about the cup/wine being safe because it's Jesus blood/body, which are condemned as irresponsible by lefty politicians/medical professionals/scientists (the topic is not if people who already know they are sick should kiss/embrace/come to church -- no one has disputed they should not). now waiting to be attacked, meep -- Calthinus ( talk) 20:49, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
The Four Deuces, there is a recent article at Efsyn, (Efsyn is a RS greek newspaper), that tells that coronavirus can be transmitted through the common cup. That article cites the 1998 academic article. So there is someone that tells "Donald Trump was born in New York, the home of Son of Sam." Cinadon 36 06:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
"infectious diseases can be transmitted from a common communion cup.[34]"in an article about covid19, they are implying that source [34] is relevant to covid19. If it is not, then it is the editor drawing a conclusion, not the source. And finally, what makes this whole debate ridiculous to begin with is that there is no absence of sources that are about covid19 and make similar points. Someguy1221 ( talk) 01:25, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Specifically, the bibliography referred to is a 480-word public letter from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), written in 1998. The publication is not a product of a research process, but the adoption of earlier studies. It even contains bibliographical references of 1943 and 1967 1 . Its main reference is based on earlier research, in which a sample of 681 people of various ages was examined as to whether or not they attended church meetings and whether or not they received a "divine congregation" 2 .
Although the results are clear regarding the transport of germs through the sacred vessels, the researchers did not find an increased risk of transmission to the population using the implements of the holly communion. But this study has a number of methodological problems.
Initially, the period of sampling is not clearly stated. Viruses also have seasonal characteristics, with winter living conditions favoring transmission due to closer contact indoors and their poor ventilation. Still, personal hygiene becomes more neglected than in the summer months.
Researchers also did not study how rituals take place. The Catholics do not associate with the forceps from the common glass / mug and the priest places the unleavened unleavened bread, Ostia, in the mouth of the faithful, thereby reducing exposure to saliva. Finally, the investigation was conducted at a time when there was no outbreak or epidemic in the US. Even the spread of "bird flu" was then limited to Asia, Africa and Europe.
.
To me, it looks like a very flawed paper to base any short of conclusions about the cup, especially in this Greece-related article and about the Greek Church rituals. Dr. K. 13:14, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Please see:
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Labeling modern descendants of nobility with theoretical titles: NPOV, BLP, NOR and other policy problems.
It's as much about NOR as NPoV matters. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 00:30, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
If a governmental source describes that a feature is at a specific location and is of particular character (a lake, a village, or whatever) and it does not appear on a map consulted at that location (whether map is printed or a google maps), is it OR to conclude the source is in error? If the satellite imagery shows no water (if it's a lake) or buildings (if it's a settlement), is it OR to conclude the source is in error? Carlossuarez46 ( talk) 23:12, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
I'm in a dispute at Kafir ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) with new editor TomReagan90. Souniel Yadav inserted a quote from the Quran [20] which I reverted with the edit summary "editors shouldn't cherry-pick quotes from religious texts but find reliable sources discussing them and use the source, not the quote". TomReagan90, who I've only encountered before at Talk:Grace Blakeley, showed up and reverted me [21] with an edit summary "disagree. quote is illustrative and precisely in context". Knowing this editor has only just over 20 edits I assumed that they didn't understand our policies and guidelines saying "Sorry, but you are new and don't yet understand our policies and guidelines" and they replaced the quote saying "in my reading, it refer exactly to the secondary sources above and below it. what "policies and guidelines" are you referring to???". Given the discussion at the Grace Blakeley talk page I don't think this editor is interested in my opinion, so I'm bringing this here for uninvolved editors to comment. Doug Weller talk 14:55, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Most passages in the Quran referring to unbelievers in general talk about their fate on the day of judgement and destination in helland I just want to add this quotation from the Quran after that:
— Souniel Yadav ( talk) 19:43, 6 April 2020 (UTC)"Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings."[ Quran 98:6
Jeff6045 has been using original research allegations to revert my edits, which I do not think is original research. I cited academic books and peer-reviewed journals for my edits, but they were reverted by Jeff6045, who claims that these edits are original research. I would like some informed advice and opinion on whether these original research allegations made by Jeff6045 are in compliance with WP:OR.
Edit 1. [22] Revert 1 based on OR allegation. [23]
Edit 2. [24] Revert 2 based on OR allegation. [25]
Edit 3. [26] Revert 3 based on OR allegation. [27]
ps: Please don't forget to sign your comment. Jeff6045 ( talk) 07:22, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Specific case is the Background section of Christchurch mosque shootings, which goes into the issues of white supremacy and Muslim population of New Zealand at the time before the attack. There have been a few people on the talk page that believe that this section is very much original research because it is not material specifically discussed in conjunction with the attack and is being used to created a narrative, as well as a reliance on primary sources (as is seen by the current tags). Fresh pairs of eyes to judge if there's an issue here would help. -- Masem ( t) 14:01, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Infrastructure policy of Donald Trump ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Needs more eyes — article is packed with off-topic material in the OR/ SYNTH/ PRIMARY vein, including material on the 1970s oil crisis, the Paris Agreement, the Obama administration, etc., including citations to many sources that make little or no mention of Trump. Neutrality talk 16:06, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
It is being reported that Juneau County, Wisconsin has 265 positive COVID-19. Juneau County currently has 7 positive and 223 have been tested as of 4/16/20.
Canaan (son of Ham) [28], Hamites [29]. I've been reverted and my attempt to explain the issue to User:7Lybia7 seems to have failed. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 18:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
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Media coverage of Bernie Sanders (
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There is a disagreement about how to interpret the following:
Are the authors implying that this comparison this is how we determine if a candidate has been sufficiently covered or are they merely observing that as Sanders climbed in to polls, he was mentioned more often?
I am surprised that the mentions of Sanders was not higher. I don't know how someone could write about the Democratic primaries, which became a two person race between Clinton and Sanders, without mentioning both candidates.
TFD ( talk) 19:15, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
When I first read the article, I indeed interpreted the statement "Sanders’s share of news coverage far exceeded his share in national polls" as meaning he received more coverage than his share in the national polls would apparently warrant. In light of TFD's elaboration that share of coverage apparently refers to a certain number of mentions of Sanders in news coverage when he was one of two contenders for the Democratic nomination in 2016, I doubt that interpretation was correct. The authors may make this statement verbatim, yet the meaning of "share of news coverage" may be unclear. Are the authors actually telling us Bernie Sanders' share of news coverage was disproportionately greater than his poll numbers warranted? Unfortunately I don't have access to the book. If yes, the statement is fine. If no, then it seems obviously problematic to reproduce the statement without any context. Zloyvolsheb ( talk) 02:16, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I've attempted repeatedly in my article to draw attention to discrepancies between the DVD film narrative and what the liner notes say about it. I originally--and stupidly--failed to reference my 2 sources, and overtly asserted that the liner notes disagreed in key areas with the narrative as laid out in the film. After repeated arguments over whether saying the obvious constituted "original research", I changed tactics. I made a point of referencing my sources (It's been a long while since my last major article edit, so I was a little rusty on the rules about documentation), and, instead of asserting a difference, I instead explicitly compared and contrasted key points in the liner notes with info mentioned in the earlier "Narrative" section. I was simply showing what each "source" said, side by side, and letting readers do any inferring. That's OK, right? I've seen other articles "compare and contrast" sources and versions of stories without explicitly inferring a "difference" and those things haven't been erased.
Why is my text still being reverted? Is the mere intention of highlighting the differences unacceptable? Or is it simply that those differences unimportant or irrelevant? If it's the latter, I can accept that and move on. I do not accept, that simply doing a compare-and-contrast of referenced sources constitutes OR.
(Personally, I don't think that when a source, figuratively, says "2, and 2 more", then I can't say "4". Simple intellectual "arithmetic" (not to be confused with literal arithmetic) isn't OR. (??) Making an inference when there's a reasonable case for a different conclusion clearly IS, though. But I don't run this show. Maybe there's no room for "common sense" here.)(The previous aside isn't that important; bottom line: Can I use compare-and-contrast to implicitly make a case without saying so? I think readers have a right to know if the liner notes are "accurate".)
PS. I'd like to personally SHOW you what I said that was reverted, but I haven't mastered getting to recent previous article versions, so I can't. If you're not willing to check the article history itself, then at least address the theoretical issue raised here. ("Call of the Wild: Dog of the Yukon"; I keep trying to spell it right but I can't directly link to the article myself.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertGustafson ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
Comment There have now been ten separate topics initiated today at Talk:The Call of the Wild: Dog of the Yukon by this editor, all seemingly revolving around whether one editor can nitpic (I dare not say 'split hairs') over their desire to include in Wikipedia a curious fact that they have spotted a discrepancy between their copy of a DVD's liner notes and the actual plot of a film. Who is to say that they had a very early imprint, and many tens of thousands subsequently circulated are all perfectly correct? Who is to say that the discrepancy is in every single DVD copy ever produced? The answer to both these questions is RELIABLE and SECONDARY sources, and not this editor! Whilst applauding all editors' desires to improve articles, Wikipedia doesn't need people who spot trivial errors to list them in articles unless the world at large had taken note of them. Similarly, mentioning disclaimers about 'no animals were hurt in the making of this film' were totally unnecessary unless there was previously a public outcry and accusations that this film wascruel to animals. If independent film and video journalists have discussed these and other issues at length, then clearly they might then be relevant to the article. But what seems to be under discussion here is whether what RobertGustafson wants to insert into this film article is, or is not, WP:OR. I think it most definitely is, and also that it is WP:UNDUE and potentially damaging to an otherwise straightforward encyclopaedia article. The inclusion of this type of content should not be encouraged. Bonadea and Marchjuly have both tried to tell them this already. I am now adding my voice to concur. Nick Moyes ( talk) 21:05, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
~~~~
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Nick Moyes (
talk) 10:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
A descent, in this sense, is a chronological list of the owners of a piece of property, particularly a manor or large estate. In England the published Victoria County Histories (VCH) contain many descents, and these form the basis of some of our articles on the subject, e.g. Manor of Totteridge (see ref no 1); Hawkwood, London (see ref no 1). Descents are also published elsewhere, in historical journals etc., and these would obviously also be good reliable sources.
Most estates have passed through several families over the centuries and the details are often complicated by imperfect records, legal disputes etc., so that a correct descent can be difficult to work out (that's why people still write papers on them). My question, then, is - should we be publishing the descent of a manor/estate when one has not already been published by a reliable source?
Although many English counties have volumes of the VCH containing descents that can form the basis of content in our articles, Devon is one that does not (see Victoria County History#Dormant counties). Wikipedia does, however, have many articles that include detailed descents of manors and estates in Devon. Rather than these being based on other reliable sources that describe an entire descent, they have been pieced together from various sources such as the family pedigrees published by J.L Vivian in 1895 (see John Lambrick Vivian#Visitations of Devon); 300-year-old sources such as William Pole (antiquary)'s Collections... and Tristram Risdon's Survey...; Debrett's, Burke's, etc.; and various websites, newspapers, magazine articles and similar. For examples, see Manor of Bicton, Spridleston, Painsford, Ashprington. More are in Category:Former manors in Devon and Category:Historic estates in Devon.
Is this original research/synthesis? — SMALL JIM 19:32, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
An editor is attempting to include a flag, map and coat of arms to the info box of Majeerteen Sultanate and Sultanate of Hobyo that are not published by any reliable source. The editor failed to provide any published reliable source that included these files, and instead provided:
The editor was requested multiple times in the talk page to provide reliable sources that published the said files or remove them but they insist on inclusion despite failing to provide the sources. Any opinions? Koodbuur ( talk) 13:33, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Certain tetms and condom
On the page " Shooting of David Dorn", several editors have added a description of the accused shooter as African-American ( [38] [39] [40] [41] [42]). This description is not used in the source provided and appears to be original research. Even if the description is accurate it is still inappropriate to use without providing a reliable source that considers it noteworthy. CowHouse ( talk) 17:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
This. [43] It looks ok for general articles on the subject, but not for every article that involves a conspiracy theory. Doug Weller talk 19:08, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
See my concerns here: Talk:Early_21st-century_civil_rights_movement I think this very recently created and lengthy article is synthesizing current events into a narrative. I thought about nominating it for AfD, but thought I'd seek advice or input here first, given the sensitive nature of this topic. Crossroads -talk- 15:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Someone else nominated it for deletion. Crossroads -talk- 23:02, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Quasistellarprimate ( talk · contribs)
The 3x3x3 version of the game cannot end in a draw and is easily won by the first player unless a rule is adopted that prevents the first player from taking the center cell. In that case, the game is easily won by the second player. By banning the use of the center cell altogether, the game is easily won by the first player. By including a 3rd player, the perfect game will be played out to a draw. By including stochasticity in the choosing of the side the player must use, the game becomes fair and winnable by all players but is subject to chance. By making the choice of the player piece (x or o) subject to chance, the game becomes fair and winnable by all players. [1]
This problem can be solved by forbidding the players from making two consecutive moves in the same layer.
References
And at that point, they just didn't learn from the general note. Bringing the concern here since 2 reverts is edit warring. {{ reply to| Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 17:05, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Lockdown drama contains virtually no sourcing other than to a link to a newspaper article that quotes this very article's definition of a lockdown drama! It also has myriad other problems such a lack of context, no intro, and what attracted my attention is the wording has me concerned about possible copyvio as it reads like something taken from a textbook. 70.73.90.119 ( talk) 14:16, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
The following passage has been repeatedly restored, or its 'citation needed' markup eliminated by vague allusions to the Enc.Britannica.
Within Judaism there are a variety of movements, most of which emerged from Rabbinic Judaism, which holds that God revealed his laws and commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of both the Written and Oral Torah. <ref name="What is the oral Torah?" /> Historically, all or part of this assertion was challenged by various groups such as the Sadducees and Hellenistic Judaism during the Second Temple period
In my reading, there is nothing to warrant the unhistorical assertion that a movement that arose in the Ist century ce was challenged by two movements that predate it by some centuries, and which expired before Rabbinic Judaism was formed. Nishidani ( talk) 06:08, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Let me reframe this query which arose from examining a sentence that combines synthetically two articles from the EB to make a generalization (poorly written).
Let's focus on method and how core policy asks us to source articles. We have several hundred books and articles published each year on Judaism and its ancient history etc. Most are readily available, in libraries or on the net. In this context, is (a) https://torah.org/ Torah.org appropriate as a resource and (b) Should we use snippety articles on the Encyclopedia Britannica online version when, with equal rapidity, one can access up to date recent scholarly articles on everything here?
My view to (a) is no. I'd erase on sight any use of a website on Catholicism as an historical source, and the same should apply here.
As to (b) the default encyclopedia for this specific area is the magnificent Encyclopaedia Judaica which anyone can download, is written by experts, and, unlike the Britannica, is not interfered with by online anonymous contributors. If one is unfamiliar with the scholarship, then that is the encyclopedia to use. Nishidani ( talk) 09:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Whole issue revolves around this modification. The word "criticised" is not supported by any reference. Obviously because Criticism is different than that.
Main question is, on Wikipedia, should we describe a statement which is predictable and a part of regular attack against opposition political party as "criticism"? Or just say what source said. 2402:3A80:16A9:FD37:E68F:114D:5DA9:46D0 ( talk) 05:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I have a copy of a memoir written by a member of a WWII combat unit. It was printed and distributed to other unit members in 1972. The memoir adds details to events during and after the war in Europe. I can provide a PDF of the work. Is this type of firsthand source material acceptable? If so, how does one establish its authenticity for other editors to review and accept? NileCity ( talk) 14:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
There are concerns that have been raised about whether the article as a whole inappropriately synthesizes information from its sources. Looking for some insight on how to improve the draft.-- Prisencolin ( talk) 09:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
A user has been repeatedly removing an OSM location map that I have created at Dhola Post. I have recreated it in my sandbox so that you can actually see it. (OSM location maps don't show when viewing old versions in history.) Despite citing a reliable source and making adjustments as per the source, his objection persists. He says:
There is no "old" or "new" objection. There is only the same objection: the map was created by you and hence violates WP:NOR. Despite your penchant for technicalities, you admit that it was you who marked the locations on the map. You admit that it is you who "interprets old sketch maps." Therefore, the map created by you is WP:OR. The fact that we are arguing whether a map created by you constitutes "original" research is yet another example of the extreme dishonesty and bad faith discussion that you have repeatedly engaged in.
What would you say to that? -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 15:49, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Diannaa, this user appears to believe that you can copy and paste maps published in books. Can you tell us what we are allowed to do? -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 19:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
copying the details to OSM while maintaining as much accuracy as possible should be fine. I asked you,
What details can be accurately copied to OSM?Respectfully, you didn't answer.
Attempting to use fine details like coordinates based on visually copying the map is WP:OR.You may not agree with that in every case, but it must apply in this case when the original map has no coordinates and is not to scale. Erik-the-red ( talk) 12:39, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
There are multiple reference to Frank Ocean's possible birth name that came from original research by 1 user and this is not cited anywhere else, where there are articles that show his name to be "Christopher Edwin Breaux" [1].
Further, in his songs he uses his legal name for writing credits - "Christopher Breaux. [2]
The name Christopher Breaux was used for the songs "Cayendo" [3] and "Dear April" [4] which were released in 2020.
While there may be confusion about his birth name, it is clear he still uses "Christopher Breaux" as his legal name. Thus, shouldn't we only being his legal name, if we can't prove his birth name from a reliable source?
Doublebside ( talk) 19:58, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
References
More comments are requested at Talk:A.C.A.B.#Request for comment on text removed from ACAB article. Crossroads -talk- 23:25, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm in disagreement with QuakerIlK over whether the methodology and sourcing of Popular castles of Scotland constitutes original research. As far as I can tell, all the sources are primary, and their listings are tallied to arrive at a conclusion that is not in made in any source. I think that matches ours description of synthesis: to combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Before I take it to AfD, I'd appreciate feedback from uninvolved editors. Thanks, Vexations ( talk) 18:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
No original research (WP:NOR) – Wikipedia does not publish original thought... the policy should apply to any editor trying to introduce his or her own views into an article.This might not be per se as disruptive as trying to introduce an idiosyncratic new version of physics (which is why the policy was created) but nevertheless Wikipedia has determined that it is not the place where new ideas should be published. This "objective" ranking of castles based on website mentions is a new idea. I hope I've explained the policy more thoroughly and its application to this article. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 02:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
More comments are requested at Talk:Falkland_Islanders#Request_for_comment_on_whether_the_claim_"Falklanders_can_claim_Argentine_citizenship"_is_OR_and_violates_NPOV. Thanks.
Boynamedsue ( talk) 12:08, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I work for Nestlé Purina PetCare, which owns Petfinder, a pet adoption website. Recently, @ TruthInAdverts: inserted a paragraph in the lead of Petfinder alleging the website has banned and regulated small charities in favor of "wealthy" ones. The paragraph goes on to describe a specific situation where Petfinder revoked the account of a long-time user and asked for more documentation. Under the circumstances (no citations, SPA, etc.), I suspect the paragraph represents the personal observations and opinions of the user. As I have a conflict of interest, I would like to kindly request impartial, un-involved editors take a look. The paragraph in question is as follows:
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In 2020, Petfinder began strictly regulating how 501c3 animal welfare organizations can offer adoptable animals on its website. Courtesy listings--the practice of helping find homes for pets in need without physically intaking them into a shelter or other rescue environment, thereby lowering the animals' risk factors--were banned so that these charities could no longer implement best practices of Intake Diversion by helping the public find good homes for pets in need without having to leave them in a shelter. In 2020, Petfinder also began attempting to regulate animal welfare organizations' internal policies and procedures by restricting what kinds of policies 501c3 rescues and animal welfare organizations could create and implement; for example Petfinder placed in its Terms of Service that these organizations are not allowed to charge an "application fee". This resulted in some disadvantaged charities no longer being able to cover the costs of their expenses involved in processing applications, resulting in less time and resources available to spend on applications and marginalizing smaller, non-wealthy charities in favor of larger, wealthy ones. In one documented incident, Petfinder "deactivated" one 501c3 charity's longtime membership over a false accusation, and refused to reinstate it even after Petfinder acknowledged via email no evidence to substantiate the accusation. The charity filed a complaint with the parent company, Nestle Purina, and Petfinder responded by again emailing the charity, notifying it that Petfinder was aware that a complaint call had been made, and then instead of working with the charity amicably to resolve the situation, Petfinder added additional accusations and demands of more documents of the member organization, including a demand to see a copy of the charity's adoption contract in order to prove a name change. The charity pointed out that IRS determination letters, not adoption contracts, are how name changes are confirmed, but Petfinder did not respond and instead left the charity's membership deactivated. https://pro.petfinder.com/tos/ |
Thank you in advance for your time and attention to this matter. Laurasprecklee ( talk) 19:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
The content that is being mass removed in these three edits and being resotored in these two due to the content being contested as “unverifiable”, “original research”, “synthesis”, and “fancruft”, despite attempts to verify it on the talk page being ignored by the removing editors. From what I understand of what these mean, they mean anything that is not explicitly stated by source material, which most of the content is from what I’ve seen of this series. I recently discovered this noticeboard, and I want to verify on whether the edits being mass removed here qualify as what Drmies and Serial Number 54129 (who I do not want to ping based on threatening comments) are saying they are. Unnamed anon ( talk) 13:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
A user keeps trying to insert material that deviates from the given source into the article Dog whistle (politics). This is after it was rejected by RfC as part of a much more extensive set of original research. I'm fine with more perspectives and discussion of false accusations but this just seems like a flagrant violation of policy to me. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 11:29, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
While many people might hear 'international banks' quite literally... anti-Semites hear something very different. After all, the supposed existence of a cabal of international Jewish bankers working to undermine US democracy is a recurring theme in American anti-Semitism.
We all constantly litter our speech and writing with messages that will be fully received only by those who share our verbal and conceptual associations. But we don't usually do this in order to create a Straussian double message, an esoteric wolf in an exoteric sheepskin. We do this because we can't help it, it's how language works, and also how thought works. New ideas and new discourses are built out of fragments of old ones. As a result, almost everything that we say or write is a 'dog whistle': even if the basic meaning is clear to everyone, some people will pick up on implications that are lost to others.
"[Dog whistles] are generally used to convey messages on issues likely to provoke controversy without attracting negative attention. One example may be use of the phrase 'family values' to signal to Christians that a candidate would support policies promoting Christian values, without alienating non-Christian supporters. Accusations of dog whistling are, by their nature, hard to prove and may be false. One example may be the use of the phrase 'international banks' to signal to racists that a candidate is antisemetic without alienating non-racist supporters."
I believe that the above discussion makes it abundantly clear that there is no original research involved, and the discussion has degraded into arguing about a content dispute. I suggest closing this discussion and directing the participants to the article talk page. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 13:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
There are currently discussion in the article talk page could be sources discussing dhimmi used in Dhimmitude. In my opinion it two diffent concepts one is muslim term the other is neologism though derived from it is different.Opening such door would open various WP:OR about the neologism -- Shrike ( talk) 13:08, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Here's a link to the page I'll be discussing: Music of Polynesia
I am brand new to editing Wikipedia pages - as in, I have never done it before - but when I saw this page I knew I needed to do something about it. I'm posting it here because of the subjective and unverified assertions at the top, which is what I saw first, but on closer inspection the page is flawed in many ways. I really think this page is important and I want it to be improved but since I don't know what I'm doing I'm going to post this here and hopefully someone can point me in the right direction. I don't particularly want to research this topic myself, I just want the page to be flagged for editing, for those disclaimers to appear on the page (which ones would fit, by the way?) and for a discussion about it to be started somewhere. Let me know if this is the wrong place to put this and I will move it. Here's what's wrong
This section is copied from the introduction: "Internationally, Polynesian music is mostly associated with twinkling guitars, grass skirts and beautiful relaxing sounds, Hawaiian Hula and other tourist-friendly forms of music.[citation needed] While these elements are justifiably a part of Polynesian history and Polynesian culture, there is actually a wide variety of music made in the far-flung reaches of Polynesia." There is a "citation needed" thingy, but I think until someone finds a source to cite, it needs to be taken down! I understand the sentiment and I agree with it, but I don't come to Wikipedia to see this kind of original discourse.
I don't have much to say about this because it already has a disclaimer thingy, but the most egregious violation of this is of course the "far-flung reaches of Polynesia" that is also in the introduction. The whole intro should just be scrapped imo. Can I just do that, or is that not allowed? The rest of the article also frequently mentions Hawaii, which seems slightly indicative of a less-than-worldwide view, but I don't mind that very much at all because there is so little information about anything here.
This ties in with the original research but there are other parts of the article that need inline citations too. This could be a simple enough fix but to be honest, I don't really want to bother, especially because....
It's a stub. Here's everything the article actually includes:
Most of the pages for the different islands of Polynesia are in this category and contain way more information than this one. That could be summarized and included here under different headings for different islands! And also this category here has lots of information that could be included. Oh, and the two links I put in this paragraph weren't working as internal links so I formatted them as external links. ~figayda~ ( talk) 23:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
This is a relatively new article that could use some extra eyes: Weinstein is a somewhat well-known figure who has done a number of interviews about this campaign, but I have found very little reliable secondary sourcing on it. The closest I can find is this brief discussion of the campaign on Reason.com.
Barring additional sources, it might make sense to just merge everything in to Bret Weinstein's bio page, since he appears to be the main public figure associated with the project. Any other ideas would be welcome. Nblund talk 02:19, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm looking for some assistance in reviewing SpaceX_Merlin#Gas_Generator for original research and synthesis. My interpretation is that almost all of the section is OR. As of this writing, the section reads:
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The LOX/RP-1 turbopump on each Merlin engine is powered by a fuel-rich open-cycle gas generator similar to that used in the Apollo-era Rocketdyne F-1 engine.[39] During tests of that engine (ca. 1966), Rocketdyne showed[40] that open-cycle RP-1 gas generators of this type yield 20 - 200 pounds of class-1 carcinogens, such as benzene and butadiene,[41][42][43][44] per ton of RP-1 fuel. Note that by the current date, the thermal-cracking/condensation-polymerization chemistry of fuel-rich aliphatic hydrocarbon combustion has been well-understood for decades.[45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56] Due to their toxicity, these combustion products are now legally regulated within the US, providing community and worker health protections which did not exist during the Apollo era.[57][58][59][60][61] During free-flight of the Falcon launch vehicle in the lower troposphere, the extremely hot main-engine exhaust and substantial partial pressure of atmospheric oxygen are observed to ignite and burn off the gas generator exhaust. However, during the test-stand and launch-stand (pre-lift-off) water deluges, as well as in-flight at altitudes above the mid-stratosphere,[62][63][64] this post-combustion is extinguished, and these chemicals, tars,[65] and soot are released to the atmospheric and space environments.[66] Rocket engine thrust chemistry models and mechanisms exclude large toxic molecules such as benzene and butadiene,[67][68][69] and SpaceX Environmental Assessments[70][71][72][73][74] provide no data on this important chemistry for environment, community, and worker protection.[75][76] |
I've had some conversations with the editor ( User:67.61.89.32) on the talk page that has gone nowhere, and I'm not sure what the next step is. Quoting from my last post to the talk page: Taken together, the chain of logic [in this section] reads to me to be something like: "This gas generator of this old engine produced output which we now know to be potentially harmful. The gas generator used in this engine shares some design features with this old one. SpaceX should know that this harm is possible. They haven't done anything to prove that the harm isn't occurring. Therefore, communities and workers are threatened and should be worried about the Merlin engine." If this argument were made in a reliable secondary source, I would be happy to have it included here. If components of this discussion were included in more general pages, I would be happy to see them. But I don't see a way to include this specific chain of logic without violating WP:NOR and WP:NPOV.
I really don't want to get into an edit war here -- I've deleted the content a couple of times over the past couple of weeks and the other editor has restored it. Am I way off base here? Any help in figuring out next steps? Themillofkeytone ( talk) 23:13, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
At least two users have restored this commentary on a photo used in the article; despite the recent additions inclusion of a source (a primary source that's not specifically about the photo), it still looks unambiguously WP:SYNTH to me; bringing here for additional opnions. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:15, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
In the article intro, we've got Margaret described as Queen-designate. That description appears to be original research, to me. GoodDay ( talk) 18:29, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
I would like to get feedback from uninvolved editors in a discussion [51] at the BLP Noticeboard about Ariel Fernandez that involves SYNTH concerns. Morbidthoughts ( talk) 14:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
I would like to get some assistance on original research edits being done on Sanskrit page by Fowler&fowler. The editor is changing about 19 references to "Indian Subcontinent" on the basis of google search results on google books. The talk page here [ talk page] has the discussions on these changes.
The editor uses the following original research on google books as a support to replace "Indian Subcontinent" with "South Asia":
In doing so, the editor does WP:SYNTH synthesis on several sentences:
The first line of the lead section was previous this way:
Sanskrit ( /ˈsænskrɪt/; Sanskrit: संस्कृतम्, romanized: saṃskṛtam) [1] IPA: [ˈsɐ̃skr̩tɐm] ⓘ) is an Indo-Aryan or Indic [2] language of the ancient Indian subcontinent with a 3,500-year history. [3] [4] [5]
The cited references mention about Indian subcontinent:
Although Vedic documents represent the dialects then found in the northern midlands of the Indian subcontinent and areas immediately east thereof, the very earliest texts—including the Rigveda (“The Veda Composed in Verses”), which scholars generally ascribe to approximately 1500 bce—stem from the northwestern part of the subcontinent - https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sanskrit-language
For 3500 years Sanskrit was the language of religion, philosophy, medicine, math, astronomy and literature of every branch of learning not only in India, but also in every other region influenced by the Indian culture. -- Murray, T. (2007). Milestones in archaeology : a chronological encyclopedia. Santa Barbara, Calif. ; Oxford: Abc-Clio.
References
The references to "Indian Subcontinent" are being replaced with "South Asia" based on the above original research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaykul72 ( talk • contribs) 7 october 2020 (UTC)
There is a policy application discussion over at Talk:List of largest empires#Empire of Japan. The question is whether a particular instance of using personal communication with an author to assess the reliability of a source for a specific piece of information found within is appropriate. Complicating the matter is the fact that the source in question is not the original source of that particular piece of information; an earlier source which is not reliable when it comes to this particular subject matter per WP:RSCONTEXT has been found, and it contains the same piece of information while citing an even earlier source which we have been unable to locate (and thus may or may not be reliable).
The discussion on the talk page has stagnated, and I would like input from more editors weighing in on this. I was unsure if WP:RSN or WP:NORN was the more appropriate place for this, so I posted it to both. TompaDompa ( talk) 23:32, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
There is a new editor on this page who does not like it that the article states that ECHR is the most effective international human rights court in the world, even though it is cited in line and several sources are quoted on the talk page to support this statement. The editor has not cited any sources that have a different assessment, but keep changing it based on their subjective opinion that this is not the case. Since they refuse to engage on the talk page, I am at my wits' end dealing with this editor. Any help is appreciated. ( t · c) buidhe 17:09, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
This template seemed like original research to me, but you may have information that shows otherwise. Please comment.
jps ( talk) 17:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I would appreciate input at Talk:Confucius Institute regarding material recently added to the article by GrandmasterLiuHu. Specifically, one of the references that he or she added was written in the late 19th century but the article is about an institute founded in the 21st century. Another reference that was added is to a general philosophical encyclopedia article that makes no mention of the subject of the article. Thanks! ElKevbo ( talk) 16:57, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
I started a discussion at Talk:2020 United States presidential election to try to achieve a consensus well before the election about how we are going to update the map and infobox. Most of the !votes at that discussion are in favor of waiting until 3+ reliable news sources project a state before adding that state to the map and infobox. I demonstrated that even under this proposal, it would be possible for us to call the race for a candidate as the winner (projected president-elect) even before any reliable news organization projects that a candidate has won. Due to this, another user said that this specifically would be a WP:SYNTH violation. I said that it would likely be fine due to WP:CALC, but they disagreed. I pointed out that if WP:CALC does not apply with regards to calling the race before the media does- then WP:CALC probably still wouldn't allow us to say a candidate has for example "266 electoral votes" based on combining projections from news organizations, when no news organization's tally has the candidate at 266 electoral votes. I suggested an Associated Press only infobox/map (since many news organizations rely on the AP) as a possible alternative that could alleviate WP:SYNTH concerns, but so far there hasn't been much support for that suggestion. If any experienced users here could help us determine to what degree WP:SYNTH applies vs. WP:CALC, that would be most helpful. Thanks! Prcc27 ( talk) 21:07, 11 October 2020 (UTC)