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A disagreement has arisen as to the use of the phrase "the Luftwaffe of Nazi Germany". I consider it a neutral descriptor, no different to saying Royal Air Force of the United Kingdom". The other editor, however, disagrees.
The discussion has not resulted in reaching consensus. It can be found here:
I would appreciate some input on this matter. I've notified the other editor here. K.e.coffman ( talk) 00:13, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
mouthfulfrom an editor who insisted that "the Luftwaffe of the Bundeswehr" was correct and proper terminology for the German Air Force ( diff). K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:48, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
In current version of the article, one-third of the lead is devoted to the Wikipedia editing of the subject, a Republican candidate for governor. Mentioning in the article itself is one thing, but isn't this a bit much? Coretheapple ( talk) 13:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Bomberswarm2 ( talk · contribs · global contribs · logs · block log)
I've noticed that this user has a conflict of interest bias when it comes to editing articles related to American politics. This user has added information to articles about presidential elections that could be seen as non-NPOV, slanting towards Republican and against Democrat. A quick trip to the user's page shows that it solely consists of userboxes expressing support for Donald J. Trump, as well as a userbox opposing Washington D.C. statehood. This user has also nominated the
WP:AUC for deletion, stating 'if there is no response in 5 minutes then this WikiProject will be deleted'. The numerous edits to articles relating to presidential elections, as well as Bernie Sanders, lead me to believe this user has a conflict of interest bias, editing articles to appear in favor of Republican politicians, AKA a bias.
UNSC Luke 1021 (
talk) 16:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Good. Not relevant to anything since all my edits are NPOV Bomberswarm2 ( talk) 22:52, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Bomberswarm2 ( talk) 12:19, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
General notice. This is admittedly WP:BITING the newcomer but IAR and NPOV applies. —አቤል ዳዊት ? (Janweh64) ( talk) 19:45, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
This article has recently gained the attention of a new editor who seems to be quite a devotee of this rabbi. Yitzchak Ginsburgh#Teachings shows what we've now got, including the line "He shows astonishing proficiency in Chassidic literature in all its fields and succeeds in elevating mundane concepts to astounding levels, capturing his listeners for hours on end". I've tried to rein this in, but the other editor is persistent and I don't want to edit-war. I'd be grateful if someone else could review this article and adjust (if necessary) for NPOV. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 19:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Great. @ Debresser and Nomoskedasticity: hopefully you both are able to work things out throughout the rest of the article. - Darouet ( talk) 20:23, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
According to our article, extensively sourced to libertarian think tanks and right-wing economists for whom 2007-08 presumably never happened, "Free banking refers to a monetary arrangement in which banks are subject to no special regulations beyond those applicable to most enterprises, and in which they also are free to issue their own paper currency (banknotes)."
Mr. Orwell on line 2...
In the real world, free banking means checking accounts without transaction charges. What the article describes is unregulated banking, which is generally well understood to be (a) hypothetical and (b) a terrible idea.
I think we need to move this article. Guy ( Help!) 00:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
In this page I have WP: Conflict of interest, so I need to ask other readers to help determine the WP:NPOV problem. I think there are three questions now.
@ Tr56tr and TheBlueCanoe: it looks like a lot more discussion has occurred on the talk page of the article than will happen here. I think JFG's summary of that discussion and closure was probably accurate. But then again I tend to agree that "incorporation" is the most neutral term, compared to "invasion, annexation, liberation..." Darouet ( talk) 20:32, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Which version do you guys prefer: my version or this version? The latter says in the lead:
Several reports published by the CIS have been widely deemed misleading and riddled with basic errors by scholars on immigration; think tanks from across the ideological and political spectrum; media such as PolitiFact, FactCheck.Org and NBC News; several leading nonpartisan immigration-research organizations; and by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
I argue that this misrepresents several of the sources, assigns undue weight to others (think tanks that advocate for higher levels of immigration disagree with CIS's reports, and vice versa), and is in any case SYNTH as we would need reliable secondary sources to establish that CIS notably many errors compared to other Washington DC thinktanks or that there is this wide cross-partisan consensus that their work is shoddy. Talk starts here. Pinging Volunteer_Marek. NPalgan2 ( talk) 14:36, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
@ NPalgan2 and Volunteer Marek: I'd make two quick notes on this topic. First, I think any neutral reader would read the first paragraph and get a sense that CIS has an agenda. I'm not criticizing that fact, but it's worthwhile to note that for some readers, aspects of the information in the second, proposed paragraph could be easily predicted or even inferred from the first. Second, reading through the article, I'd say that the content of the second lead paragraph is well justified, but that the lead is not a fair summary of the whole article. The lead is also very short. Instead of proposing to delete Marek's paragraph, NPalgan2 have you considered adding another middle paragraph that does more to summarize the article as a whole? - Darouet ( talk) 20:21, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
"An article is neutral if, after reading it, you cannot tell where the author's sympathies lie."( WP:LAWS). I know we try to avoid "criticism" as a section title but it might be appropriate here. - Darouet ( talk) 20:45, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi.
There is an RFC ongoing here at Talk:Twin paradox. There is text there that currently reads as follows:
This result appears puzzling because each twin sees the other twin as moving, and so, according to an incorrect[1][2] and naive[3][4] application of time dilation and the principle of relativity, each should paradoxically find the other to have aged less.
The “naive” bit has received its share of attention on the talk page and there is an editor who frequents the article and opposes all attempts by other editors to delete it. I invite others to weigh in. It seems inappropriate and insulting in an encyclopedia directed to a general-interest readership like Wikipedia, which is certainly not a bulletin board for experts on relativity to hammer each other with insults. Greg L ( talk) 20:27, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
Because this issue has been extremely contentious in the past, I invite admins and other interested parties to keep an eye on this name change discussion regarding the future naming of the Liancourt Rocks article. Thank you for participating! ··· 日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:08, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
I am inviting opinions on a NPOV issue in the Stolen Generations article. [1]
The section titled “Historical debate over the Stolen Generations” has been edited to remove ALL the arguments criticising the premise of the Stolen Generations from a historical point of view. It retains some minor non-historical arguments/information but all arguments, information or explanations from one side of the historical debate have been repeatedly edited out.
It appears from the page history that over a fairly long period of time, numerous editors have attempted to introduce or reintroduce some of it into the article. Every time some of the omitted material has been added or returned it has been removed based on claims that removing one side of the debate ‘improves’ the NPOV, makes it ‘balanced’ or that leaving any of the opposing historical arguments in the article would give those arguments ‘undue weight’.
Apparently for an article on a controversial issue to have a NPOV, only one side of the debate may be represented in it?? I’m not the most experienced editor but that doesn’t seem right. 2001:8003:642A:6C00:D5C2:41E0:A153:C2E4 ( talk) 03:06, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I have left messages on the involved editors' talk pages notifying them of this. 2001:8003:642A:6C00:D5C2:41E0:A153:C2E4 ( talk) 03:11, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
"...many more who have written on the Aboriginal cultural issues involved (such as the cultural practice of infanticide of 'unwanted' children), journalists, missionaries and persons involved in the administration of Aboriginal child welfare..."You what? Where? It seems that you're conflating issues in order to push your own original research. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 09:20, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Comment: Suggest this discussion be closed per WP:FORUMSHOP. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 04:25, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
There's been a dispute over how/whether to cover the plagiarism scandal in any detail at Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg. Briefly, a scandal surrounding alleged plagiarism in his doctoral thesis led to Guttenberg's resignation as the German Minister of Defense, and his (up until now) withdrawal from elective politics. I'll post at the BLP noticeboard to ask about weight issues, but I just wanted editors here to review the section I wrote, and to give any suggestions on neutral tone.
The section I wrote is here: [2].
Two editors have objected that my proposed text is not neutral. I have attempted to discuss with them here, but their response has essentially been, "try again from scratch." What I'm looking for them to identify concrete problems with the text, and to propose changes, rather than rejecting it in its entirety. Perhaps editors here could give the text a look and weigh in on its neutrality, and what changes could be made. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 19:46, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
"Is there any specific text or portion of the text that has been criticized, and if so can you let us know what to look for?"There are two overarching criticisms of the text. One criticism is that the text is too long, since a separate article covering the scandal exists ( Causa Guttenberg). The other criticism, made by the exact same editors, is that the text does not include a whole number of different minor aspects of the scandal, listed here. I find it hard to reconcile these two criticisms. One asks for the text to be shortened, and the other asks for a dramatic expansion of the text to cover nearly every minor detail of the scandal.
The current RfC at the European Graduate School talk page requires your input on specific discussions surrounding the selective use of primary sources in relation to the wider question of neutral point of view. Many thanks! Mootros ( talk) 05:02, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Alexis d'Anjou-Durassow is the positive one, and Alexis Brimeyer is the negative one. KMF ( talk) 22:05, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Also in Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, we write "U.S. officials said that under Putin's direction, the goals evolved from criticizing American democracy to attacking Clinton..."
The Reuters source reads, ""This began merely as an effort to show that American democracy is no more credible than Putin's version is," one of the officials said. "It gradually evolved from that to publicizing (Hillary) Clinton's shortcomings and ignoring the products of hacking Republican institutions, which the Russians also did," the official said."
[7]
This is just one U.S. official, stating that according to U.S. intelligence, Russian hacking goals evolved to include publicizing Clinton's shortcomings. I think there's no reason to use language more inflammatory than in the source provided and don't believe our summary is accurate. Input appreciated here as well - Darouet ( talk) 21:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
In the Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections lead, we currently write that "President-elect Donald Trump... attacked the intelligence agencies in a transition team statement," citing Bloomberg News [8].
The source reads, "President-elect Donald Trump’s transition team dismissed claims of foreign interference in this year’s elections as the CIA reportedly concluded that Russia had intervened to help the Republican candidate and shared its findings with lawmakers in a private briefing."
The source later includes a subheading, "Trump dismissive," and also uses the verb "scoffs." The word "attack" doesn't appear anywhere in the source to describe Trump's response.
There has been a debate on the talk page over whether the word "attacked" or "dismissed" is better suited, and input would be appreciated. - Darouet ( talk) 21:17, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I am in dispute with Antinoos69 regarding maintaining NPOV in the article, "First Epistle to Timothy". It seems that I am not the first to have this dispute with Antinoos69. PeacePeace in the Talk section of this article page also brought up similar issues last year with Antinoos69, but Antinoos69 would not deviate from his position. Antinoos69 has had contentious exchanges with JohnThorne on the Talk section of the article covering 1 Timothy 1. This uncompromising approach by Antinoos69 has resulted in a series of "undos" that has resulted in a protection against editing for several days. I am following the directions of the Admin who suggested the next course is to post to the NPOV noticeboard. I have tried to work with Antinoos69, but to no avail. I have discussed the unsubstantiated claims of the sources he has used and he challenged me to find contradicting sources. I have posted them to the article and amended the article with in-text attribution so as to maintain the POV he so desperately wants to keep. He has rejected all of the sources I incorporated and is unwilling to consider the use of in-text attribution. I have also considered some of the criticism of some of the sources I introduced and I willing removed one. He has ceased discussion and indicated that he would simply "undo" every time I introduce an edit. I'm not entirely sure what more I can do. Antinoos69 has already stated his general distaste for the WIKI block policy and procedures. Based on his unyielding positions he has displayed when working with others, I believe his distaste goes beyond just the WIKI block policy and procedures. 66.215.220.110 ( talk) 04:34, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I certainly appreciate everyone’s input. I know that it takes a lot of everyone’s time to engage in this discussion. I also want to recognize Antinoos69 for engaging in this discussion. As I read through the thread, I can see that Francis Schonken has experienced some of the same frustrations with Antinoos69 as I have experienced with Antinoos69’s “paternalistic attitude”. I also see that Antinoos69 has tried (as he has in times past) to sway the discussion by his self-proclaimed credentials of “possessing a degree in religious studies” instead of the merits of his argument. And what do we really know about Antinoos69 other than the themes of writings and paintings on his talk and user page, perhaps connotations of his user name, his history of edit-warring, and the value of his discussion with others. This is who he is in the Wiki community. However, all have biases. This is a fact of the world. What is important is that we recognize our biases and do not allow them to stifle alternate viewpoints in the articles. It is not ours to sway readership opinion, like the editorial page of a newspaper. It is ours to bring out alternative viewpoints so that the readers can consider these and reach their own conclusion. This concept is embodied in Wikipedia’s NPOV policy. So, I ask all here. Does it make sense in this article to bring in alternate points of view and who is it here that only wants to show one point of view? 66.215.220.110 ( talk) 15:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
ATTENTION: 66.215.220.110 has resumed his/her edit warring now that the pages' edit protection has expired. He/She still has not achieved consensus for these changes, and I adamantly oppose them. Antinoos69 ( talk) 07:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
I have added a NPOV section to the talk page for the article /info/en/?search=Fox_hunting To avoid taking unilateral action as I do not have the time to actively participate in that discussion, if there is some agreement about POV issue in the article, could somebody add a non-NPOV tag to the article for me. Thanks! 132.205.228.106 ( talk) 13:20, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
The United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016 (in normal modern British (and even Irish, Australian and New Zealand) English, it is actually simply "United Kingdom European Union membership referendum 2016", without a comma...I blame probably "trolling", from people effectively imposing effectively American English (or "Oxford English", or British English 150 years ago) onto titles for articles on modern British events, supposedly "for uniformity", for this!) is written in a highly biased tone, especially in its Wp:LEDE, certainly the wording "to gauge support".
The Referendum of the 23rd June 2016 was subsequently ruled as effectively advisory in nature in the judgment of the case of R (on the application of Miller and Dos Santos) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union of the Divisional Court (Queen's Bench Division (QBD)) of the High Court of England and Wales (EWHC) on the 3rd November 2016 ([2016] EWHC 2768 (Admin) (CO/3809/2016; CO/3281/2016)), and then confirmed on appeal by a separate judgment of the United Kingdom Supreme Court (UKSC) ([2017] UKSC 5 (UKSC 2016/0196)) on the 24th January 2017, which was subsequently effectively partially overturned, by implication, by the wording of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 (2017 c. 9) [9] [10], which states that "the United Kingdom’s intention to withdraw from the EU", which (by wording) clearly infers (implies) that the referendum was to be made retrospectively legally binding in British law at the same time as authorizing Theresa May to invoke Article 50, by formal notification.
The British doctrine and the Westminster system of Parliamentary sovereignty mean that the British Parliament is entitled and empowered to pass laws to be enacted to partially or wholly reverse or overturn judgments of the English and British Courts (see [11] back in the year 1689 ( O.S.)), even retrospectively, in the form of something called emergency retrospective legislation. [12] [13] [14] There is nothing particularly controversial about this. See e.g. the subsequent history of the British case law of Derry v Peek.
I think that the words "to gauge support" here smack more of some extreme diehard "Remoaners" editorialising here on Wikipedia, who probably genuinely believed (and no doubt still genuinely believe) that the British Parliament, Theresa May as British Prime Minister and the Conservative British Government-of-the-day did not actually have to do anything because "the Referendum was advisory" but they chose to enact, make into force and implement Brexit anyway in the form of (authorizing and then implementing) Article 50 Invocation...and to back up my claim, the words used in Wikipedia were certainly "plagiarised" since by people who obviously opposed (and remain obviously opposed to) Brexit. [15] [16] [17] [18] -- 87.102.116.36 ( talk) 08:13, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
I have recently stumbled upon an article online, which proves that gender wage gap is not real anymore. However our article covering this topic does not agree with this opinion. The article [19] specifically brings up a theme of women working on less paid positions. As well as that, it is very clear that after the Equal Pay Act of 1963 the sex wage gap in the US is not a thing anymore. However, article on gender pay gap state, that in the US it is illegal or might not even exist. I might be wrong, but I think that the theme of gender wage gap should be reviewed on POV violations and/or brought to the arbitration committee. Cheers, FriyMan talk 16:01, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Editors are invited to participate in Talk:Day-care sex-abuse hysteria#RfC: Overall compliance with BLP and neutrality policies, where there are potential neutrality/BLP problems that might necessitate a major structural overhaul of the article, or even deletion. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 18:08, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Fritz Korbach was a Dutch/German football coach. For know, the lead highlights him racially abusing lack players, Bryan Roy and Romário in a 1991 interview. None of the Dutch mainstream mediabobituaries considered this was notable enough to mention. At Talk:Fritz Korbach I discussed to remove it, for WP:UNDUE-reasons. However, someone else argued that it was "covered, by various sources to various levels of depth, and which relates directly to his professional career and what he is known for." I doubt if that is true, since the much larger German an the Dutch articles on Korbach did not consider it notable enough to include it. Therefore, is it notable enough to include the affair in the English-language article, and if so, should it be in the lead section? Best regards, Jeff5102 ( talk) 10:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The tone of this article is promotional. Amqui ( talk) 18:27, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Page:
Southern Poverty Law Center (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Edit: "In 2013, the SPLC named the
Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) as a "virulently anti-gay" organization. Professor
Mike Adams criticized the SPLC because "Their reason for the characterization was simply that the ADF opposes efforts of the LGBT community to impose its agenda on those who disagree with them for religious reasons.
"The War On Krishna", SPLC
Mike Adams,
"The Intellectual Poverty Law Center",
Townhall
Revision as of 05:26, 2 May 2017
Question: This edit is representative of a number of criticisms added to the SPLC page. Is the controversy presented in a fair manner? Is the criticism of sufficient weight that it should be added?
Comments: The edit fails to mention the full facts, including why they include the ADF and who Adams is. It provides a link to where the SPLC refers to the ADF anti-gay, but not their article where they explain why they consider it an anti-gay hate group, which can be found here. It supports the recriminalization of homosexuality abroad, says same sex marriage has lead to the "deification of deviant sexual practices," “The endgame of the homosexual legal agenda is unfettered sexual liberty and the silencing of all dissent,” and links LGBT people to pedophilia, and more.
While Adams is a professor, his views are controversial and he was writing as a columnist in a conservative magazine, rather than as a professor. For example, an article in Cosmopolitan, "UNC Professor Pens Racist, Homophobic Facebook Posts and Articles About Students," says Adams "has been posting hate speech against the LGBTQ community throughout his tenure at the college."
Certainly people who engage in hate speech as normally understood object to the attention the SPLC pays to them and we should mention that. But I think the way this is presented gives undue credence to a fringe view, and incorrectly presents the criticism as expert and unbiased. And this has been repeated for Islamophobic, racist and other types of groups.
I acknowledge that there are a few critics of the SPLC who do not promote hate speech, in particular the independent researcher and journalist Laird Wilcox and the founders of the left-wing magazine CounterPunch. but that is a separate issue.
TFD ( talk) 18:58, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
The article on this private college became the subject of some intense editing starting in January following the suicide of a student and the revelation of a number of other abuses at the school. Much material has been added on these controversies, but while this appears to be reasonably well-sourced, it has come to dominate the article. One editor in particular, User:Helpsavestudents, has been the primary contributor of verbiage highlighting the abuses. Others have tried to whitewash the article and/or have it deleted entirely. A few, including myself, have tried to make some severe cutbacks to restore some proportion--while I may have cut things back overmuch, these cutbacks have been reverted in their entirety.
I'm requesting a few more eyeballs to check out the article and assist with figuring out what the best balance is here. Thank you for your assistance. -- Finngall talk 01:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
A NPOV dispute has arisen on the Isshin-ryu karate page within the section "History," subsection "Tatsuo Shimabuku" (the founder of the style). Here are the relevant diffs.
Here is the lengthy discussion from the Talk page under lineage.
Essentially, undue weight seems to be placed upon a single, disputed secondary source from a magazine rather than presenting that source in the context of Shimabuku's widely accepted biography. For example, the section's language leads with the magazine article's alleged "controversy," placing it in the sentence immediately after Shimabuku's birth and death dates. A previous major edit 1) to expand the range of sources (secondary and tertiary), 2) to refocus on the topic (i.e. on the subject's biography rather than an alleged controversy), and 3) to contextualize the controversial source with other sources, was reverted and rewritten to highlight once again the single magazine article.
I do not object to including the sensational article's central claim that Shimabuku was a fraud who fabricated his lineage. As a non-representative or non-mainstream article, however, it probably should not dominate this brief biographical sketch in a subsection of the Isshin-ryu page.
Altogether, the neutrality issues involved seem to touch on WP:UNDUE WP:PROPORTION WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:IMPARTIAL.
Help please! Billyinthedarbies ( talk) 04:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
__________
I am "The Other Editor" on this matter who cited that article in question, and I am ONLY posting HERE to SUPPORT Billyinthedarbies's request. I am only interested in an accurate history. I just want to make clear that this is not about arbitrating a "fight/Edit War" between two individuals/editors. We just want to have a nice accurate history section. Some of us would also like a pony, but I will not reveal who.
TheDoctorX ( talk) 06:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I would like to request a third opinion on the dispute currently ongoing at Douban. User:Whaterss initially blanked a section pertaining to censorship of the 1989 Tiananmen massacre on the grounds that it is "political content". He has subsequently justified this in edit summaries and on the article talk page by stating that the blanked content is "both unimportant and not neutral".
I responded on the talk page: "You are blanking an account of an event, reported in reputable news media, that has been presented here in a neutral tone. Why? WP:NPOV does not mean "censor anything that might reflect poorly on the article subject". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and Wikipedia is not censored. We report on notable aspects of the subject at hand. Notability is generally defined as something that is reflected in coverage by reliable secondary sources – for example, the content that you are blanking, which is cited to the BBC. Secondly it isn't your call to dictate whether something is "unimportant" or not – what matters is whether it has been covered by reliable secondary sources."
The blanked content is a brief, neutral summary of an aspect of the subject that has been reported on in a reliable secondary source. There is no basis in Wikipedia policy to censor it. Citobun ( talk) 04:35, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Me and Snooganssnoogans are in a major dispute regarding content on Greg Gianforte. They revolve around two different topics.
First, Snooganssnoogans added a section detailing Gianforte's belief in Young Earth creationism. I removed it because I think it violates WP:UNDUE, because the article mentions Gianforte's contributions to the YEC museum three other times in the article; and that it violates WP:COATRACK, because the info he added describes the museum's beliefs, which has nothing to do with Gianforte.
Second, Snooganssnoogans added a section entitled "Social Security and retirement." I strongly disagree with this section because Gianforte is only talking about retirement and not about SS. He mentions SS only once to illustrate that the biblical figure Noah did not retire. This sentence has absolutely nothing to do with retirement, but the header misleads the reader into thinking the section regards Gianforte's position on retirement. These sections are in the "Political positions" section of the article, which I think is misleading because neither section has anything to do with politics (especially the retirement quote).
I am posting this here because Gianforte is a candidate in an upcoming special congressional election in less than a month. I am worried that this info and possibly other info is added because of the election. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 22:57, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This concerns [22]. At least two editors want to state as an objective fact that God is the father of Jesus. Imho, that isn't an objective fact, but a subjective belief. Not being able to distinguish between objective facts and subjective beliefs is a matter of WP:CIR#Bias-based. Please chime in. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Not sure why Tgeorgescu opened a thread here. There's already a consensus in the talk page against the proposed change, and the mentioned edits have been reverted.-- FutureTrillionaire ( talk) 19:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I am the initiator of this discussion, thank you for your attention. My point of view: the information about Joseph is taken from the Bible. There are no other sources about Joseph. But the Bible says that the father of Jesus Christ is God the Father. What's the point? Do you believe the Bible that Joseph existed, but do not believe that he was a foster father? There are three normal ways: 1. Father is God the Father. 2. Write only about Virgin Mary. 3. Write about Joseph is the foster father. Алессия ( talk) 20:28, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
There are no other sources about Joseph.There exist numerous texts that mention Joseph, academic texts and ancient texts, The Quran for one. It is not a “fact” that Jesus is the son of God. It is a belief. Objective3000 ( talk) 20:53, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
You are absolutely unawareand
Do you like to demonstrate ignorance. Such are not acceptable here. Objective3000 ( talk) 21:58, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
References
Historians can only establish what probably happened in the past, and by definition a miracle is the least probable occurrence. And so, by the very nature of the canons of historical research, we can't claim historically that a miracle probably happened. By definition, it probably didn't. And history can only establish what probably did.
There are no other sources about Joseph.You need to stop saying this. It is demonstrably false. Objective3000 ( talk) 21:20, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
"The historical Jesus means the real human, of flesh and blood. The Christ of faith means a mythical being." You have confused - "objectively" does not mean "atheistically". Алессия ( talk) 22:40, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Marcus Borg has suggested that "the details of Strauss's argument, his use of Hegelian philosophy, and even his definition of myth, have not had a lasting impact. Yet his basic claims—that many of the gospel narratives are mythical in character, and that 'myth' is not simply to be equated with 'falsehood'—have become part of mainstream scholarship. What was wildly controversial in Strauss's time has now become one of the standard tools of biblical scholars."<ref>[http://www.westarinstitute.org/resources/the-fourth-r/david-friedrich-strauss/ Marcus Borg, David Friedrich Strauss:Miracles and Myth.]</ref>
— from David Strauss
I happen to agree with the fairly explicit point of view of this article, but that doesn't excuse the violations. As written it's a mess, with not only NPOV problems but formatting and others as well. It's had an assortment of tags on it, apparently, for about five years now. -- Orange Mike | Talk 02:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
This is apparently a friend of the subject's; subject had previously attempted to have an employee of hers "Improve" the article, but that one got blocked. The edits by DMGUSA are very favorable to the subject, and poorly sourced, if at all. -- Orange Mike | Talk 22:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right place to discuss what will probably wind up being changing the text in a maintenance template, but anyway...
I was just looking at
Jesus Christ, which transcludes
Template:Redr and so includes the text Please do not replace these redirected links with a link directly to the target page unless expressly advised to do so below or elsewhere on this page
.
But "Jesus Christ" is a non-NPOV theological title that shouldn't generally be used in Wikipedia's voice except in statements like Christians call him Jesus Christ
. The neutral equivalent is
Jesus of Nazareth. I can see why some editors might accidentally pipe-link the redirect because "Jesus" is ambiguous and they assume the article's title is not just
Jesus. But places where someone actually wrote "Jesus Christ" in an article should generally be replaced with "Jesus" or "Jesus of Nazareth" or the like, per NPOV.
Can anyone think of a reason not to change the template text to read Please do not replace these redirected links with a link directly to the target page without a good reason
?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 22:30, 20 April 2017 (UTC
The Amway article has been plagued by socks who remove the pyramid selling term. See e.g. [24]. Please chime in. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 08:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
"But the part that should worry the industry isn't so much the fine—though it is one of the largest ever levied by the FTC in a consumer protection case. The more ominous part is the consent decree Herbalife signed as part of its deal to avoid litigation and put the matter behind them. As part of its settlement, the company agreed to provide proof going forward that its products are being sold to actual customers—something Ackman, CEO of Pershing Square Capital Management, had been seeking since launching his assault on the company in December 2012. (In the decree Herbalife neither admits nor denies wrongdoing.)
While the decree's terms may be strong medicine even for Herbalife, they would likely cripple, if not kill off, many of its competitors in what's known as the direct selling, or multi-level marketing, industry. That category includes companies like USANA (USNA, +0.39%), Nu Skin (NUS, +0.31%), Amway, and Avon Products."
"Multi-level marketing (MLMs) companies use independent contractors to both sell their products and to recruit additional independent contractors to sell their products. They are paid commission fees based not only on their own wholesale purchases from the company—intended either for resale to retail customers or for personal consumption—but also on the purchases of their recruits and on the purchases of their recruits' recruits, and so on.
Most MLMs bear at least a superficial similarity to illegal pyramid schemes, where early joiners make out like bandits but later participants inevitably lose their money since, mathematically, there's no one left to recruit. In a pyramid scheme, distributors buy product from the company just to manipulate the compensation system, not because they really want to consume it or resell it. (For that reason, inventory may pile up in garages or be dumped for resale at a pittance on the internet.) In 1979, the FTC accepted the notion that MLMs were not categorically illegal, at least so long as they followed certain rules—known as the Amway rules, because of the case that established the precedent—that were supposed to ensure that when MLM distributors bought product from the company they were really consuming or reselling that inventory...
Over the years, however, both the FTC and the courts have grown skeptical that these rules—which nearly every MLM claims to follow—are really being enforced or that they are, in any case, sufficient to prevent an MLM from devolving into a pyramid scheme. The consent decree Herbalife signed Friday replaces the weak, difficult-to-enforce Amway rules with robust, verifiable proof that products are reaching good-faith consumers."
This section provides a list of groups that are allegedly support Islamic extremist ideology, although the definition of "Islamic extremism" is ambiguous and often controversial. Can this list be re-written so that it describes these groups in more objective terms? Jarble ( talk) 00:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
There has been a really great conversation at Talk:Criticism of Walmart and I'm looking for more editors to join the discussion. To summarize: Wikipedians have noticed and have begun attempts to fix the Criticism of Walmart article, which is full of WP:UNDUE and WP:POV content, and is far from encyclopedic in areas. Some editors have suggested throwing out the article and starting from scratch, while others have said the article would take a "massive" effort to clean up properly. The issue is no one knows where to start. I posted this same question to Wikipedia:Village pump, where George Ho recommended I seek input at this noticeboard. So here I am. Input and advice from additional editors could be a huge benefit to finding a way forward in cleaning up Criticism of Walmart. As one of Walmart's representatives on Wikipedia, I have a conflict of interest and I do not feel comfortable making suggestions as to whether the editors should try to correct the existing article or start over by reducing it to a stub, as has been suggested by others. I am, however, willing to help with whatever "grunt" work is necessary to assist other editors in fixing the page (providing references, assisting with identifying inaccuracies, etc.). Any insight is valuable and appreciated. Thanks, JLD at Walmart ( talk) 19:08, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
JLD and Kendall-K1, I think the entire article should be scrapped. I haven't touched the article since January I believe. Also, Kendall-K1, when I checked references, I had the same problem you did, the refs didn't didn't support what was claimed, or they were dead links. That's why I tried to remove the links. I wasn't trying to go against any Wikipedia policies when removing the links, my thinking (which was probably wrong) was that if the refs didn't support what was stated, they should be removed. I only did that because I read a lot of BLPs on Wikipedia, and on the talk pages for BLPs, you have to have a reference, or Wikipedia could get in legal trouble, so I figured the same would be true for an article about Walmart. I apologize if I caused you any trouble Kendall-K1, I did enjoy working with you on the article. I also think it's nice to work with someone like JDL. You're upfront and honest, and to echo what Kendall-K1 wrote, you don't act like a corporate shill. Paige Matheson ( talk) 02:17, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Since 2010 I have edited and added to a Wikipedia page concerning a UK based rock page (now relocated to another EU country).
I seek advice of how to deal with repeated edits to the band's page being made by a former member of one version of the band who believes he has been badly treated and has rights to trade under the band's name. He also adds links to his current projects (unconnected) and to defamatory information on the band's founder and current members posted on a similarly named webpage he owns (which IMO is an abusive registration). I don't want to get into edit wars but don't really know what else to do.
I have declared a interest as a friend of the band's founder but also declare truthfully that I have no financial interest in the band and am not in any way contracted to edit the wikipedia article. The subject of the page might fairly be described as having somewhat limited tech understanding and I edit the page as a favour to him. Until recently this has been an uncontroversial process merely adding new releases and changes to band personnel etc.
The band in question have existed in various forms since the early 1980s and all their material has been composed by the band's founder who is also the only person to have been in all incarnations of the band.
Following an acrimonious split from the band, a individual who was a touring member of the band for about a year has posted untrue and libellous statements on a website he has registered with the band's name (merely buying a domain with a different suffix). He now posts links to those statements on the band's Wikipedia page, in a way which suggests this is agreed by the band's founder and reverts any changes made. This person has not declared a conflict of interest though that is obvious. He also adds links to his websites in external links and promotes his current band which has no connection with the original band other than having two members who played briefly in the subject band and a very similar name to the original band. During his membership of the band, the band only performed material written by the founder. In fairness, this person (the former band member) did record and produce an album of old hits of the band and organised two tours of Spain in 2015 and 2016. His contribution during that period is not in dispute nor is his right to claim that he was unfairly treated by the band's founder and management (and lost money as a result) though of course that is disputed. However I do not believe that Wikipedia is the place to grind an axe particularly when it involves links to material of a personal and libellous nature including financial information.
As is often the case in the entertainments industry disagreements arose and the band split with the former member claiming he now owned the band and would continue without the founder member. It is fair to say that the band is almost entirely a vehicle for the founder member who not only wrote all the material but also sings it and has a distinctive style. Once promoters realised that the founder was no longer in the band attempting to tour under the original name, further engagements were cancelled.
The founder member recruited new band members (to join the three members of the previous band who remained) and continues to tour and has produced and released an album of new material. He is very well known in the EU country in which he now lives and enjoys much TV and Radio coverage.
Ideally someone neutral would edit the Wikipedia page but I don't know how one 'recruits' such a person. At very least I think that the person doing these edits should declare a COI and the links to his disputed version of events which led to the split - which are not verified by other neutral sources - should not have a place on the page.
I have not mentioned the name of the band here as I do not want to fan the flames further.
Any advice on how to proceed would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lleolyons ( talk • contribs) 11:50, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I have started an RFC here on the topic of how time should be given in article text. It is possible that a few involved editors are biased due to the way such things are written in their own countries and languages. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:12, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
This Timeline of scandals related to Russian interference in the 2016 US presidential election and attempts to impeach Donald Trump needs goof look at, maybe even an AFD. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:47, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
The article on Functional Medicine [ [25]] is very biased and the bias is obvious in both tone and quality of cited sources. The talk page here [ [26]] makes a clear point that even the definition of functional medicine, even when appropriately cited, is consistently removed from the article.
It appears after thoroughly reading the talk page that there IS a consensus, and that the consensus is that the article is biased, and yet attempts to fix it are consistently reverted. Hence, I am added the article to this list for 3rd party review. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.184.213.72 ( talk) 03:51, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Is it ever appropriate for Wikipedia to describe a person, movement, or viewpoint as "misogynistic"? This has cropped up in some articles pertaining to the manosphere (e.g. Robert Fisher (New Hampshire politician) which said, "In 2017, The Daily Beast claimed that Fisher was the founder and a moderator, under the alias pk_atheist, of the subreddit 'TheRedPill', known for its misogynistic views", and 2014_Isla_Vista_killings#Misogyny, which says, "Rodger frequented online forums such as PUAHate and /r/ForeverAlone where he and other men posted misogynistic statements about women"), with some editors saying it's an example of calling a spade a spade.
If advocating traditional sex roles is misogynistic, then there are quite a lot of historical figures ( such as Paul the apostle) who would have to be regarded as misogynistic (rather than merely "sexist," as I've more commonly seen them described).
It's a bit jarring to see people throw the rather strong word "misogynistic" around so much these days, but maybe the meaning of the word has changed, or people have changed their standards of what kind of ideas count as misogynistic. It definitely seems like a pejorative term, as I've never heard of anyone who would describe himself as a misogynist. Compy book ( talk) 16:54, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
I have read quite a bit about editor bullying on Wikipedia, but had never once had imagined I would experience this myself. Moreover the comments by your Editor Houn are downright condescending!
I am an experinced University Professor (Tenured Full), the autor of two textbooks and the supervisor of over 50 dissertations. See my profile on: www.LinkedIn.com/in/ashleyfrankfinance
Having been slapped with a POV tag, whichI believed was unnecessary I was confronted by two editors, the first of whom was quite polite, but the response from Houn is downright condescending: "I would expect that, as a university professor, you're well aware of what kinds of sources are reliable. Accepting their own website as the sole source for such claims as having "faithfully preserved" apostolic succession doesn't seem like academic rigor to me; is that the standard you'd apply when writing a paper for publication in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal? Other parts of the content you wrote cited no references at all but the Bible; the last time I read the KJV, it didn't have anything to say about the Evangelical Anglican Church In America. Thus to me it seems you were mostly summarizing what the EACA has to say about itself, not what independent sources have reported about it; that indeed is not the way to write a neutral encyclopedia article". Huon (talk) 02:12, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
First it is impossible to write an article describing a faith-based group without describing what they believe, and it is only they who can describe what they believe! It is not any encyclopedias responsibility to check the accuracy of belief-based material which is supplied by the the group. How do I or should I even find a third party collatoration in describing the validity of someones belief? That is absurd!
In particular the dispute revolved around the use of "faifully preserved" in describing the succession of a church. To put this in context, lets assume a couple marry promising to be faithful to each other. Assuming that one partner is able to provide a written record which "demonstrates" fidelity (if such was possible). What would be wrong with saying that the marital vows have been "faithfully kept" and referencing the written record? Scientific method has to do ultimately with dispute and how would anyone dispute this statement? If you can't dispute it you will have to take it on face-value.
Referencing your own article on "Theology", the tension between faith (which cannot be independently referenced) and the scientific method has been long established: "Much of the debate concerning theology's place in the university or within a general higher education curriculum centres on whether theology's methods are appropriately theoretical and (broadly speaking) scientific or, on the other hand, whether theology requires a pre-commitment of faith by its practitioners."
The comment "Thus to me it seems you were mostly summarizing what the EACA has to say about itself" is improper criticism, how else do you document a belief? Look for example at the Wikipedia article on the Roman Catholic church, at least 80% of the references cited come from the church itself. In describing faith, the scientific method cannot be appropriately applied, simply because faith, by its very nature, cannot be indepependently tested and verified.
The comments made by Editor Houn are simply disrespectful and I shall not be submitting further work to your site.
Prof. Ashley G. Frank, DCom, MBA — Preceding unsigned comment added by HolyOil ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
The section Diego Garcia#Arrival of the US Navy uses grossly POV language, including scare quotes and labeling some actions as "greusome". - Bri ( talk) 15:43, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
The current Sexual addiction article has previously been flagged (by others) for NPOV problems and being overly technical. I have been attempting to clean up the article to address these concerns. However, some editors are reverting every single change using 'mass reverts' rather than re-edits or engagement with the issue at hand. A key problem with the NPOV status of this page is the diagnosis section. Sex addiction is NOT a diagnosis in any of the diagnostic frameworks (DSM, ICD10 etc) having been considered many times by the relevant expert committees and deliberately and explicitly excluded. However, the wiki page lists various unrelated diagnoses, in an apparent attempt to use association fallacy. Just because A is an accepted condition it does not mean that B is accepted by association because it shares a single property (in this case sex/sexuality).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cogsci101 ( talk • contribs) 11:07, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
An editor has twice changed the terminology at Mediumship to present the practice as an irrefutable fact (see [27] and [28]). I have tried to make the language a bit less judgemental (see [29]) but I see some words I have used (such as "purportedly") are discouraged by WP:WEASELWORDS. Has anyone got any suggestions? Basically the line science takes on it is that it is an "open line of inquiry" but it has never conclusively found evidence of psychic phenomena, and inevitably comes up against that old quandary that you cannot prove a negative. Betty Logan ( talk) 19:24, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Multiple discussions on the article talk page have tried to resolve this issue. At Iron Fist (TV series), the introduction of the article, at the moment, says, "The series received mixed reviews from critics." This was added after an editor challenged the introduction saying that the series received generally negative reviews. The editor argued that "mixed to negative" is more accurate, and then settled on "mixed" when it was clear that "mixed to negative" would not be added. Since then, the introduction has said "mixed." Some editors have maintained that "mixed" is fine, while others have argued that "mixed" is at odds with what the overwhelming majority of sources report on the critical reception for the series; for example, with the use of sources, I have argued that saying "mixed" in the lead is a WP:Due violation. See Talk:Iron Fist (TV series)#"Mixed to negative" is unsourced for where the dispute started and for sources offered. 72.213.205.141 ( talk) 18:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
The Christian feast of Pentecost celebrates an event that according to the Acts of the Apostles (part of the Christian Bible) took place while the Apostles of Jesus were in Jerusalem during the Jewish festival Shavuot. The word Pentecost derives from the ancient Greek name for that Jewish festival. That is well-attested and uncontroversial. Western Christians will be celebrating the feast of Pentecost this weekend, and I imagine the article will see an uptick in traffic over the next day or two – especially as since 2005 it has appeared on the Main Page every time it has been celebrated. Over the past three days, User:Seraphim System has suddenly become very active on that page. For the most part they have been removing information they say overloads the article. But they have also added a section on the etymology of the word pentecost that gets more confusingly worded at every edit, seems to want to distinguish sharply between pentecost and shavuot (they insist that "pentecost is not a translation of Feast of Weeks" – they have removed the word "shavuot" itself in both English and Hebrew), and relies heavily (three citations in two short paragraphs) on the work of Gerhard Kittel, an important biblical scholar but also a known Nazi. Reliable sources recommend his work be used with careful and critical discernment but Seraphim System insists his lexicon is a standard and unproblematically reliable secondary source. Another main thrust has been that the word "pentecost" is "not in the Old Testament" – an irrelevance to the question of etymology, since the word is attested in ancient texts, both Jewish and Christian, as the Greek name for the Jewish festival; but also non-neutral since many Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, some Protestants) do regard two of the texts in question as part of the Old Testament, although most Protestants do not. The editor seems oblivious to the idea that the canonical status of an ancient text does not affect its value as a source for ancient words. I've tried a few rewrites and reverted a couple of particularly problematic edits, but draw back from 3 reverts in a day. The editor in question is nothing if not persistent. I've engaged on the article talk page at Talk:Pentecost/Archive 1#Septuagint_2 and responded to the editor on my own talkpage. I have tried (without on every occasion succeeding) to do so with patience and good humour. It is clear now that we keep going round in circles, with the editor asking for the same things to be explained again and again, asking about my personal POV, asserting that "this is sourced", asserting that the Nazi in question heroically disapproved of other Nazis going so far as to murder Jews, etc. I now want to disengage and get community input. It may seem abstruse, a content dispute about the meaning of a single ancient Greek word, but with the topic of the article just two days away (and likely to appear on the main page) I am concerned about the direction that the editor is taking this. -- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 00:04, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic- This is the last edit I made to the section, which is sourced to multiple WP:RS [30] — I am not sure why Andreas Philopater feels using "The Feast of Pentecost" for Pentecost is an NPOV issue. The etymology section needs to explain that different terms were used in the Septuagint for Pentecost and "Festival of Weeks" — the previous article said "Pentecost" was used in Deuteronomy 16:10 and Exodus 34:22 - it is not. This term was used in Greek texts — as far as I know, it is not a term in Hebrew, and the texts that were translated from Hebrew into Greek for the Septuagint used a different term. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with whether or not Kittel was a Nazi, but maybe someone can explain it to me. Seraphim System ( talk) 09:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
@ Howcheng: Thank you Seraphim System ( talk) 09:17, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
I have started a RfC [32] on a certain contentious statement in this article, please help resolve the dispute. I should say though that the article is under discretionary sanctions - edit carefully! Banedon ( talk) 00:52, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
This RfC decided that the Daily Mail should not be used as a source in Wikipedia articles. This is problematic, because some writers for the Daily Mail have Wikipedia biographies. With this edit I used direct quotes from the Daily Mail, made by Katie Hopkins, on the Katie Hopkins Wikipedia article. My edits were reverted. I could understand prohibiting editorial content from the Daily Mail, but in this instance the Daily Mail is the only source for the quotes I used. Without permitting the subject of this BLP to state her opinion, the neutrality and fairness of the article is skewed. This undermines the integrity of WP:NPOV and WP:CRITS. Out of fairness to the subject of this BLP, an exception should be made to permit the use of the blacklisted source. Thank you. Magnolia677 ( talk) 13:50, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Assuming inclusion of the quote is appropriate, we could care less if it was published by NYTimes or the DMisn't quite the case—part of the reason the Mail is deprecated as a source is their history of falsifying quotes (given that the context is Manchester, this story may be pertinent). In a case like this, I'd see no issue with using the Mail as a source, since it's essentially a story about a Mail article in which the paper is being treated as a primary, not a secondary, source. ‑ Iridescent 08:50, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
Re: my earlier comment ("If you look at WP:DAILYMAIL you will see the reason why we do not allow it except under exceptional circumstances. The reason is that they deliberately fabricate direct quotes, deliberately publish doctored photos, etc. Read the evidence posted in the RfC. A Daily mail article under Hopkins byline can be reasonably presumed to contain the words of Hopkins; she would complain if they made stuff up and published it under his byline. That makes it one of the exceptional circumstances."), I would emphasize that we are talking about two entirely different kinds of quotes. We have multiple examples of the DM fabricating direct quotes as in a claim that prosecutors said X at the close of a murder case written before the case closed. We have zero examples of the DM publishing material under a person's byline, paying them for their work, then printing something other than what they actually wrote. The first time we catch the DM doing that we will stop using DM articles penned by a specific person as a source. Right now, a reasonable person would conclude that it is OK to presume that DM articles penned by a specific person contain the words of that specific person, especially if that specific person does not complain about his words being changed but rather goes on to sell the DM further articles on other topics. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 13:26, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
Speaking as a closer of the RFC, we could not anticipate every possible use of the DM as a source in our close, which is why we tried to carve out some wriggle room for legitimate uses. This appears to be a legitimate use of the DM, because it is likely to be reliable in this specific case. It is still preferable to use a non-DM source if/when they become available. However, the DM does not have a reputation for altering the words of the author of the piece, so this can be taken as one of the exceptions we tried to write into the close. If I seem to be misunderstanding something, please ping me
Tazerdadog (
talk) 17:01, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Brought to AfD to assess notability at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Kiyosaki. Sagecandor ( talk) 19:24, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Is it okay to add a {{ POV}} template at the top of the page, for the entire length of time of an RFC about the intro section, while the RFC is ongoing?
Could use more eyes on this, please.
Thank you ! Sagecandor ( talk) 22:37, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
The article for United States District Judge Algenon L. Marbley has seen long term POV issues, with non-POV material being inserted and subsequently removed. Such material was reinserted on June 7, 2017, by a one shot IP editor. In 2013 and 2014, the problem was bad enough that the article was protected on several occasions, but activity is now on an infrequent hit and run basis. Because the material is not an outright BLP violation, I have chosen NOT to revert it, but rather report it. The issues raised are actually valid, they are simply presented in a non-POV manner. If somebody was willing to take some time to re-write some of that material in a POV-compliant manner, I think the problem would likely go away. My hands are full with my current project and probably better if somebody with a fresh set of eyes handles this. Thanks. Safiel ( talk) 18:38, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Pamela Geller, who rose to prominence as the head of a campaign to stop the building of an Islamic centre near the site of the 11 September 2001 attacks, is described by academic sources as a prominent activist for the counter-jihad movement in the United States. I have compiled a couple of academic citations on my talk space: User:Al-Andalusi/Pamela Geller.
The question, is the inclusion of the statement "She is a prominent activist for the counter-jihad movement in the United States" in the lead of her article appropriate or not? We have a user here who claims that this is "apologist language" used by "a lot of apologists for islamophobia". Your help is appreciated. Al-Andalusi ( talk) 04:23, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
and also as aShe's relentlessly shrill and coarse in her broad-brush denunciations of Islam and makes preposterous claims, such as that President Obama is the "love child" of Malcolm X. She makes no pretense of being learned in Islamic studies, leaving the argumentative heavy lifting to her Stop Islamization of America partner Robert Spencer. Geller has mingled comfortably with European racists and fascists, spoken favorably of South African racists, defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps.
prominent anti-Muslim activist[1]
References
I think there's a big problem with the text "Multiple groups have described Geller as Islamophobic". Neither cited source supports this "multiple groups" claim properly. SPLC has a tendency to be go OTT sometimes: they described Majid Nawaz as an extremist for example [33] - they're not suitable as a source for asserted fact. Alexbrn ( talk) 16:58, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
No idea what to make of this. Issue was previously discussed, and I thought resolved, here. Argument was made here that the claim should not be removed without re-adding the previous information, which I accept, but this doesn't apply to the above situation.
Thoughts?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 00:34, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
RfC about the author credits of first edition in first sentence in a book article.
Please see Request for Comment, at Talk:Trump_Tower:_A_Novel#RfC_about_the_author_credits_of_first_edition_in_first_sentence. Sagecandor ( talk) 02:38, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 60 | ← | Archive 63 | Archive 64 | Archive 65 | Archive 66 | Archive 67 | → | Archive 70 |
A disagreement has arisen as to the use of the phrase "the Luftwaffe of Nazi Germany". I consider it a neutral descriptor, no different to saying Royal Air Force of the United Kingdom". The other editor, however, disagrees.
The discussion has not resulted in reaching consensus. It can be found here:
I would appreciate some input on this matter. I've notified the other editor here. K.e.coffman ( talk) 00:13, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
mouthfulfrom an editor who insisted that "the Luftwaffe of the Bundeswehr" was correct and proper terminology for the German Air Force ( diff). K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:48, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
In current version of the article, one-third of the lead is devoted to the Wikipedia editing of the subject, a Republican candidate for governor. Mentioning in the article itself is one thing, but isn't this a bit much? Coretheapple ( talk) 13:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Bomberswarm2 ( talk · contribs · global contribs · logs · block log)
I've noticed that this user has a conflict of interest bias when it comes to editing articles related to American politics. This user has added information to articles about presidential elections that could be seen as non-NPOV, slanting towards Republican and against Democrat. A quick trip to the user's page shows that it solely consists of userboxes expressing support for Donald J. Trump, as well as a userbox opposing Washington D.C. statehood. This user has also nominated the
WP:AUC for deletion, stating 'if there is no response in 5 minutes then this WikiProject will be deleted'. The numerous edits to articles relating to presidential elections, as well as Bernie Sanders, lead me to believe this user has a conflict of interest bias, editing articles to appear in favor of Republican politicians, AKA a bias.
UNSC Luke 1021 (
talk) 16:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Good. Not relevant to anything since all my edits are NPOV Bomberswarm2 ( talk) 22:52, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Bomberswarm2 ( talk) 12:19, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
General notice. This is admittedly WP:BITING the newcomer but IAR and NPOV applies. —አቤል ዳዊት ? (Janweh64) ( talk) 19:45, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
This article has recently gained the attention of a new editor who seems to be quite a devotee of this rabbi. Yitzchak Ginsburgh#Teachings shows what we've now got, including the line "He shows astonishing proficiency in Chassidic literature in all its fields and succeeds in elevating mundane concepts to astounding levels, capturing his listeners for hours on end". I've tried to rein this in, but the other editor is persistent and I don't want to edit-war. I'd be grateful if someone else could review this article and adjust (if necessary) for NPOV. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 19:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Great. @ Debresser and Nomoskedasticity: hopefully you both are able to work things out throughout the rest of the article. - Darouet ( talk) 20:23, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
According to our article, extensively sourced to libertarian think tanks and right-wing economists for whom 2007-08 presumably never happened, "Free banking refers to a monetary arrangement in which banks are subject to no special regulations beyond those applicable to most enterprises, and in which they also are free to issue their own paper currency (banknotes)."
Mr. Orwell on line 2...
In the real world, free banking means checking accounts without transaction charges. What the article describes is unregulated banking, which is generally well understood to be (a) hypothetical and (b) a terrible idea.
I think we need to move this article. Guy ( Help!) 00:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
In this page I have WP: Conflict of interest, so I need to ask other readers to help determine the WP:NPOV problem. I think there are three questions now.
@ Tr56tr and TheBlueCanoe: it looks like a lot more discussion has occurred on the talk page of the article than will happen here. I think JFG's summary of that discussion and closure was probably accurate. But then again I tend to agree that "incorporation" is the most neutral term, compared to "invasion, annexation, liberation..." Darouet ( talk) 20:32, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Which version do you guys prefer: my version or this version? The latter says in the lead:
Several reports published by the CIS have been widely deemed misleading and riddled with basic errors by scholars on immigration; think tanks from across the ideological and political spectrum; media such as PolitiFact, FactCheck.Org and NBC News; several leading nonpartisan immigration-research organizations; and by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
I argue that this misrepresents several of the sources, assigns undue weight to others (think tanks that advocate for higher levels of immigration disagree with CIS's reports, and vice versa), and is in any case SYNTH as we would need reliable secondary sources to establish that CIS notably many errors compared to other Washington DC thinktanks or that there is this wide cross-partisan consensus that their work is shoddy. Talk starts here. Pinging Volunteer_Marek. NPalgan2 ( talk) 14:36, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
@ NPalgan2 and Volunteer Marek: I'd make two quick notes on this topic. First, I think any neutral reader would read the first paragraph and get a sense that CIS has an agenda. I'm not criticizing that fact, but it's worthwhile to note that for some readers, aspects of the information in the second, proposed paragraph could be easily predicted or even inferred from the first. Second, reading through the article, I'd say that the content of the second lead paragraph is well justified, but that the lead is not a fair summary of the whole article. The lead is also very short. Instead of proposing to delete Marek's paragraph, NPalgan2 have you considered adding another middle paragraph that does more to summarize the article as a whole? - Darouet ( talk) 20:21, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
"An article is neutral if, after reading it, you cannot tell where the author's sympathies lie."( WP:LAWS). I know we try to avoid "criticism" as a section title but it might be appropriate here. - Darouet ( talk) 20:45, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi.
There is an RFC ongoing here at Talk:Twin paradox. There is text there that currently reads as follows:
This result appears puzzling because each twin sees the other twin as moving, and so, according to an incorrect[1][2] and naive[3][4] application of time dilation and the principle of relativity, each should paradoxically find the other to have aged less.
The “naive” bit has received its share of attention on the talk page and there is an editor who frequents the article and opposes all attempts by other editors to delete it. I invite others to weigh in. It seems inappropriate and insulting in an encyclopedia directed to a general-interest readership like Wikipedia, which is certainly not a bulletin board for experts on relativity to hammer each other with insults. Greg L ( talk) 20:27, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
Because this issue has been extremely contentious in the past, I invite admins and other interested parties to keep an eye on this name change discussion regarding the future naming of the Liancourt Rocks article. Thank you for participating! ··· 日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:08, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
I am inviting opinions on a NPOV issue in the Stolen Generations article. [1]
The section titled “Historical debate over the Stolen Generations” has been edited to remove ALL the arguments criticising the premise of the Stolen Generations from a historical point of view. It retains some minor non-historical arguments/information but all arguments, information or explanations from one side of the historical debate have been repeatedly edited out.
It appears from the page history that over a fairly long period of time, numerous editors have attempted to introduce or reintroduce some of it into the article. Every time some of the omitted material has been added or returned it has been removed based on claims that removing one side of the debate ‘improves’ the NPOV, makes it ‘balanced’ or that leaving any of the opposing historical arguments in the article would give those arguments ‘undue weight’.
Apparently for an article on a controversial issue to have a NPOV, only one side of the debate may be represented in it?? I’m not the most experienced editor but that doesn’t seem right. 2001:8003:642A:6C00:D5C2:41E0:A153:C2E4 ( talk) 03:06, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I have left messages on the involved editors' talk pages notifying them of this. 2001:8003:642A:6C00:D5C2:41E0:A153:C2E4 ( talk) 03:11, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
"...many more who have written on the Aboriginal cultural issues involved (such as the cultural practice of infanticide of 'unwanted' children), journalists, missionaries and persons involved in the administration of Aboriginal child welfare..."You what? Where? It seems that you're conflating issues in order to push your own original research. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 09:20, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Comment: Suggest this discussion be closed per WP:FORUMSHOP. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 04:25, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
There's been a dispute over how/whether to cover the plagiarism scandal in any detail at Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg. Briefly, a scandal surrounding alleged plagiarism in his doctoral thesis led to Guttenberg's resignation as the German Minister of Defense, and his (up until now) withdrawal from elective politics. I'll post at the BLP noticeboard to ask about weight issues, but I just wanted editors here to review the section I wrote, and to give any suggestions on neutral tone.
The section I wrote is here: [2].
Two editors have objected that my proposed text is not neutral. I have attempted to discuss with them here, but their response has essentially been, "try again from scratch." What I'm looking for them to identify concrete problems with the text, and to propose changes, rather than rejecting it in its entirety. Perhaps editors here could give the text a look and weigh in on its neutrality, and what changes could be made. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 19:46, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
"Is there any specific text or portion of the text that has been criticized, and if so can you let us know what to look for?"There are two overarching criticisms of the text. One criticism is that the text is too long, since a separate article covering the scandal exists ( Causa Guttenberg). The other criticism, made by the exact same editors, is that the text does not include a whole number of different minor aspects of the scandal, listed here. I find it hard to reconcile these two criticisms. One asks for the text to be shortened, and the other asks for a dramatic expansion of the text to cover nearly every minor detail of the scandal.
The current RfC at the European Graduate School talk page requires your input on specific discussions surrounding the selective use of primary sources in relation to the wider question of neutral point of view. Many thanks! Mootros ( talk) 05:02, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Alexis d'Anjou-Durassow is the positive one, and Alexis Brimeyer is the negative one. KMF ( talk) 22:05, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Also in Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, we write "U.S. officials said that under Putin's direction, the goals evolved from criticizing American democracy to attacking Clinton..."
The Reuters source reads, ""This began merely as an effort to show that American democracy is no more credible than Putin's version is," one of the officials said. "It gradually evolved from that to publicizing (Hillary) Clinton's shortcomings and ignoring the products of hacking Republican institutions, which the Russians also did," the official said."
[7]
This is just one U.S. official, stating that according to U.S. intelligence, Russian hacking goals evolved to include publicizing Clinton's shortcomings. I think there's no reason to use language more inflammatory than in the source provided and don't believe our summary is accurate. Input appreciated here as well - Darouet ( talk) 21:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
In the Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections lead, we currently write that "President-elect Donald Trump... attacked the intelligence agencies in a transition team statement," citing Bloomberg News [8].
The source reads, "President-elect Donald Trump’s transition team dismissed claims of foreign interference in this year’s elections as the CIA reportedly concluded that Russia had intervened to help the Republican candidate and shared its findings with lawmakers in a private briefing."
The source later includes a subheading, "Trump dismissive," and also uses the verb "scoffs." The word "attack" doesn't appear anywhere in the source to describe Trump's response.
There has been a debate on the talk page over whether the word "attacked" or "dismissed" is better suited, and input would be appreciated. - Darouet ( talk) 21:17, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I am in dispute with Antinoos69 regarding maintaining NPOV in the article, "First Epistle to Timothy". It seems that I am not the first to have this dispute with Antinoos69. PeacePeace in the Talk section of this article page also brought up similar issues last year with Antinoos69, but Antinoos69 would not deviate from his position. Antinoos69 has had contentious exchanges with JohnThorne on the Talk section of the article covering 1 Timothy 1. This uncompromising approach by Antinoos69 has resulted in a series of "undos" that has resulted in a protection against editing for several days. I am following the directions of the Admin who suggested the next course is to post to the NPOV noticeboard. I have tried to work with Antinoos69, but to no avail. I have discussed the unsubstantiated claims of the sources he has used and he challenged me to find contradicting sources. I have posted them to the article and amended the article with in-text attribution so as to maintain the POV he so desperately wants to keep. He has rejected all of the sources I incorporated and is unwilling to consider the use of in-text attribution. I have also considered some of the criticism of some of the sources I introduced and I willing removed one. He has ceased discussion and indicated that he would simply "undo" every time I introduce an edit. I'm not entirely sure what more I can do. Antinoos69 has already stated his general distaste for the WIKI block policy and procedures. Based on his unyielding positions he has displayed when working with others, I believe his distaste goes beyond just the WIKI block policy and procedures. 66.215.220.110 ( talk) 04:34, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I certainly appreciate everyone’s input. I know that it takes a lot of everyone’s time to engage in this discussion. I also want to recognize Antinoos69 for engaging in this discussion. As I read through the thread, I can see that Francis Schonken has experienced some of the same frustrations with Antinoos69 as I have experienced with Antinoos69’s “paternalistic attitude”. I also see that Antinoos69 has tried (as he has in times past) to sway the discussion by his self-proclaimed credentials of “possessing a degree in religious studies” instead of the merits of his argument. And what do we really know about Antinoos69 other than the themes of writings and paintings on his talk and user page, perhaps connotations of his user name, his history of edit-warring, and the value of his discussion with others. This is who he is in the Wiki community. However, all have biases. This is a fact of the world. What is important is that we recognize our biases and do not allow them to stifle alternate viewpoints in the articles. It is not ours to sway readership opinion, like the editorial page of a newspaper. It is ours to bring out alternative viewpoints so that the readers can consider these and reach their own conclusion. This concept is embodied in Wikipedia’s NPOV policy. So, I ask all here. Does it make sense in this article to bring in alternate points of view and who is it here that only wants to show one point of view? 66.215.220.110 ( talk) 15:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
ATTENTION: 66.215.220.110 has resumed his/her edit warring now that the pages' edit protection has expired. He/She still has not achieved consensus for these changes, and I adamantly oppose them. Antinoos69 ( talk) 07:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
I have added a NPOV section to the talk page for the article /info/en/?search=Fox_hunting To avoid taking unilateral action as I do not have the time to actively participate in that discussion, if there is some agreement about POV issue in the article, could somebody add a non-NPOV tag to the article for me. Thanks! 132.205.228.106 ( talk) 13:20, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
The United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016 (in normal modern British (and even Irish, Australian and New Zealand) English, it is actually simply "United Kingdom European Union membership referendum 2016", without a comma...I blame probably "trolling", from people effectively imposing effectively American English (or "Oxford English", or British English 150 years ago) onto titles for articles on modern British events, supposedly "for uniformity", for this!) is written in a highly biased tone, especially in its Wp:LEDE, certainly the wording "to gauge support".
The Referendum of the 23rd June 2016 was subsequently ruled as effectively advisory in nature in the judgment of the case of R (on the application of Miller and Dos Santos) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union of the Divisional Court (Queen's Bench Division (QBD)) of the High Court of England and Wales (EWHC) on the 3rd November 2016 ([2016] EWHC 2768 (Admin) (CO/3809/2016; CO/3281/2016)), and then confirmed on appeal by a separate judgment of the United Kingdom Supreme Court (UKSC) ([2017] UKSC 5 (UKSC 2016/0196)) on the 24th January 2017, which was subsequently effectively partially overturned, by implication, by the wording of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 (2017 c. 9) [9] [10], which states that "the United Kingdom’s intention to withdraw from the EU", which (by wording) clearly infers (implies) that the referendum was to be made retrospectively legally binding in British law at the same time as authorizing Theresa May to invoke Article 50, by formal notification.
The British doctrine and the Westminster system of Parliamentary sovereignty mean that the British Parliament is entitled and empowered to pass laws to be enacted to partially or wholly reverse or overturn judgments of the English and British Courts (see [11] back in the year 1689 ( O.S.)), even retrospectively, in the form of something called emergency retrospective legislation. [12] [13] [14] There is nothing particularly controversial about this. See e.g. the subsequent history of the British case law of Derry v Peek.
I think that the words "to gauge support" here smack more of some extreme diehard "Remoaners" editorialising here on Wikipedia, who probably genuinely believed (and no doubt still genuinely believe) that the British Parliament, Theresa May as British Prime Minister and the Conservative British Government-of-the-day did not actually have to do anything because "the Referendum was advisory" but they chose to enact, make into force and implement Brexit anyway in the form of (authorizing and then implementing) Article 50 Invocation...and to back up my claim, the words used in Wikipedia were certainly "plagiarised" since by people who obviously opposed (and remain obviously opposed to) Brexit. [15] [16] [17] [18] -- 87.102.116.36 ( talk) 08:13, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
I have recently stumbled upon an article online, which proves that gender wage gap is not real anymore. However our article covering this topic does not agree with this opinion. The article [19] specifically brings up a theme of women working on less paid positions. As well as that, it is very clear that after the Equal Pay Act of 1963 the sex wage gap in the US is not a thing anymore. However, article on gender pay gap state, that in the US it is illegal or might not even exist. I might be wrong, but I think that the theme of gender wage gap should be reviewed on POV violations and/or brought to the arbitration committee. Cheers, FriyMan talk 16:01, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Editors are invited to participate in Talk:Day-care sex-abuse hysteria#RfC: Overall compliance with BLP and neutrality policies, where there are potential neutrality/BLP problems that might necessitate a major structural overhaul of the article, or even deletion. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 18:08, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Fritz Korbach was a Dutch/German football coach. For know, the lead highlights him racially abusing lack players, Bryan Roy and Romário in a 1991 interview. None of the Dutch mainstream mediabobituaries considered this was notable enough to mention. At Talk:Fritz Korbach I discussed to remove it, for WP:UNDUE-reasons. However, someone else argued that it was "covered, by various sources to various levels of depth, and which relates directly to his professional career and what he is known for." I doubt if that is true, since the much larger German an the Dutch articles on Korbach did not consider it notable enough to include it. Therefore, is it notable enough to include the affair in the English-language article, and if so, should it be in the lead section? Best regards, Jeff5102 ( talk) 10:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The tone of this article is promotional. Amqui ( talk) 18:27, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Page:
Southern Poverty Law Center (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Edit: "In 2013, the SPLC named the
Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) as a "virulently anti-gay" organization. Professor
Mike Adams criticized the SPLC because "Their reason for the characterization was simply that the ADF opposes efforts of the LGBT community to impose its agenda on those who disagree with them for religious reasons.
"The War On Krishna", SPLC
Mike Adams,
"The Intellectual Poverty Law Center",
Townhall
Revision as of 05:26, 2 May 2017
Question: This edit is representative of a number of criticisms added to the SPLC page. Is the controversy presented in a fair manner? Is the criticism of sufficient weight that it should be added?
Comments: The edit fails to mention the full facts, including why they include the ADF and who Adams is. It provides a link to where the SPLC refers to the ADF anti-gay, but not their article where they explain why they consider it an anti-gay hate group, which can be found here. It supports the recriminalization of homosexuality abroad, says same sex marriage has lead to the "deification of deviant sexual practices," “The endgame of the homosexual legal agenda is unfettered sexual liberty and the silencing of all dissent,” and links LGBT people to pedophilia, and more.
While Adams is a professor, his views are controversial and he was writing as a columnist in a conservative magazine, rather than as a professor. For example, an article in Cosmopolitan, "UNC Professor Pens Racist, Homophobic Facebook Posts and Articles About Students," says Adams "has been posting hate speech against the LGBTQ community throughout his tenure at the college."
Certainly people who engage in hate speech as normally understood object to the attention the SPLC pays to them and we should mention that. But I think the way this is presented gives undue credence to a fringe view, and incorrectly presents the criticism as expert and unbiased. And this has been repeated for Islamophobic, racist and other types of groups.
I acknowledge that there are a few critics of the SPLC who do not promote hate speech, in particular the independent researcher and journalist Laird Wilcox and the founders of the left-wing magazine CounterPunch. but that is a separate issue.
TFD ( talk) 18:58, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
The article on this private college became the subject of some intense editing starting in January following the suicide of a student and the revelation of a number of other abuses at the school. Much material has been added on these controversies, but while this appears to be reasonably well-sourced, it has come to dominate the article. One editor in particular, User:Helpsavestudents, has been the primary contributor of verbiage highlighting the abuses. Others have tried to whitewash the article and/or have it deleted entirely. A few, including myself, have tried to make some severe cutbacks to restore some proportion--while I may have cut things back overmuch, these cutbacks have been reverted in their entirety.
I'm requesting a few more eyeballs to check out the article and assist with figuring out what the best balance is here. Thank you for your assistance. -- Finngall talk 01:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
A NPOV dispute has arisen on the Isshin-ryu karate page within the section "History," subsection "Tatsuo Shimabuku" (the founder of the style). Here are the relevant diffs.
Here is the lengthy discussion from the Talk page under lineage.
Essentially, undue weight seems to be placed upon a single, disputed secondary source from a magazine rather than presenting that source in the context of Shimabuku's widely accepted biography. For example, the section's language leads with the magazine article's alleged "controversy," placing it in the sentence immediately after Shimabuku's birth and death dates. A previous major edit 1) to expand the range of sources (secondary and tertiary), 2) to refocus on the topic (i.e. on the subject's biography rather than an alleged controversy), and 3) to contextualize the controversial source with other sources, was reverted and rewritten to highlight once again the single magazine article.
I do not object to including the sensational article's central claim that Shimabuku was a fraud who fabricated his lineage. As a non-representative or non-mainstream article, however, it probably should not dominate this brief biographical sketch in a subsection of the Isshin-ryu page.
Altogether, the neutrality issues involved seem to touch on WP:UNDUE WP:PROPORTION WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:IMPARTIAL.
Help please! Billyinthedarbies ( talk) 04:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
__________
I am "The Other Editor" on this matter who cited that article in question, and I am ONLY posting HERE to SUPPORT Billyinthedarbies's request. I am only interested in an accurate history. I just want to make clear that this is not about arbitrating a "fight/Edit War" between two individuals/editors. We just want to have a nice accurate history section. Some of us would also like a pony, but I will not reveal who.
TheDoctorX ( talk) 06:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I would like to request a third opinion on the dispute currently ongoing at Douban. User:Whaterss initially blanked a section pertaining to censorship of the 1989 Tiananmen massacre on the grounds that it is "political content". He has subsequently justified this in edit summaries and on the article talk page by stating that the blanked content is "both unimportant and not neutral".
I responded on the talk page: "You are blanking an account of an event, reported in reputable news media, that has been presented here in a neutral tone. Why? WP:NPOV does not mean "censor anything that might reflect poorly on the article subject". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and Wikipedia is not censored. We report on notable aspects of the subject at hand. Notability is generally defined as something that is reflected in coverage by reliable secondary sources – for example, the content that you are blanking, which is cited to the BBC. Secondly it isn't your call to dictate whether something is "unimportant" or not – what matters is whether it has been covered by reliable secondary sources."
The blanked content is a brief, neutral summary of an aspect of the subject that has been reported on in a reliable secondary source. There is no basis in Wikipedia policy to censor it. Citobun ( talk) 04:35, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Me and Snooganssnoogans are in a major dispute regarding content on Greg Gianforte. They revolve around two different topics.
First, Snooganssnoogans added a section detailing Gianforte's belief in Young Earth creationism. I removed it because I think it violates WP:UNDUE, because the article mentions Gianforte's contributions to the YEC museum three other times in the article; and that it violates WP:COATRACK, because the info he added describes the museum's beliefs, which has nothing to do with Gianforte.
Second, Snooganssnoogans added a section entitled "Social Security and retirement." I strongly disagree with this section because Gianforte is only talking about retirement and not about SS. He mentions SS only once to illustrate that the biblical figure Noah did not retire. This sentence has absolutely nothing to do with retirement, but the header misleads the reader into thinking the section regards Gianforte's position on retirement. These sections are in the "Political positions" section of the article, which I think is misleading because neither section has anything to do with politics (especially the retirement quote).
I am posting this here because Gianforte is a candidate in an upcoming special congressional election in less than a month. I am worried that this info and possibly other info is added because of the election. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 22:57, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This concerns [22]. At least two editors want to state as an objective fact that God is the father of Jesus. Imho, that isn't an objective fact, but a subjective belief. Not being able to distinguish between objective facts and subjective beliefs is a matter of WP:CIR#Bias-based. Please chime in. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Not sure why Tgeorgescu opened a thread here. There's already a consensus in the talk page against the proposed change, and the mentioned edits have been reverted.-- FutureTrillionaire ( talk) 19:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I am the initiator of this discussion, thank you for your attention. My point of view: the information about Joseph is taken from the Bible. There are no other sources about Joseph. But the Bible says that the father of Jesus Christ is God the Father. What's the point? Do you believe the Bible that Joseph existed, but do not believe that he was a foster father? There are three normal ways: 1. Father is God the Father. 2. Write only about Virgin Mary. 3. Write about Joseph is the foster father. Алессия ( talk) 20:28, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
There are no other sources about Joseph.There exist numerous texts that mention Joseph, academic texts and ancient texts, The Quran for one. It is not a “fact” that Jesus is the son of God. It is a belief. Objective3000 ( talk) 20:53, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
You are absolutely unawareand
Do you like to demonstrate ignorance. Such are not acceptable here. Objective3000 ( talk) 21:58, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
References
Historians can only establish what probably happened in the past, and by definition a miracle is the least probable occurrence. And so, by the very nature of the canons of historical research, we can't claim historically that a miracle probably happened. By definition, it probably didn't. And history can only establish what probably did.
There are no other sources about Joseph.You need to stop saying this. It is demonstrably false. Objective3000 ( talk) 21:20, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
"The historical Jesus means the real human, of flesh and blood. The Christ of faith means a mythical being." You have confused - "objectively" does not mean "atheistically". Алессия ( talk) 22:40, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Marcus Borg has suggested that "the details of Strauss's argument, his use of Hegelian philosophy, and even his definition of myth, have not had a lasting impact. Yet his basic claims—that many of the gospel narratives are mythical in character, and that 'myth' is not simply to be equated with 'falsehood'—have become part of mainstream scholarship. What was wildly controversial in Strauss's time has now become one of the standard tools of biblical scholars."<ref>[http://www.westarinstitute.org/resources/the-fourth-r/david-friedrich-strauss/ Marcus Borg, David Friedrich Strauss:Miracles and Myth.]</ref>
— from David Strauss
I happen to agree with the fairly explicit point of view of this article, but that doesn't excuse the violations. As written it's a mess, with not only NPOV problems but formatting and others as well. It's had an assortment of tags on it, apparently, for about five years now. -- Orange Mike | Talk 02:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
This is apparently a friend of the subject's; subject had previously attempted to have an employee of hers "Improve" the article, but that one got blocked. The edits by DMGUSA are very favorable to the subject, and poorly sourced, if at all. -- Orange Mike | Talk 22:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right place to discuss what will probably wind up being changing the text in a maintenance template, but anyway...
I was just looking at
Jesus Christ, which transcludes
Template:Redr and so includes the text Please do not replace these redirected links with a link directly to the target page unless expressly advised to do so below or elsewhere on this page
.
But "Jesus Christ" is a non-NPOV theological title that shouldn't generally be used in Wikipedia's voice except in statements like Christians call him Jesus Christ
. The neutral equivalent is
Jesus of Nazareth. I can see why some editors might accidentally pipe-link the redirect because "Jesus" is ambiguous and they assume the article's title is not just
Jesus. But places where someone actually wrote "Jesus Christ" in an article should generally be replaced with "Jesus" or "Jesus of Nazareth" or the like, per NPOV.
Can anyone think of a reason not to change the template text to read Please do not replace these redirected links with a link directly to the target page without a good reason
?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 22:30, 20 April 2017 (UTC
The Amway article has been plagued by socks who remove the pyramid selling term. See e.g. [24]. Please chime in. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 08:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
"But the part that should worry the industry isn't so much the fine—though it is one of the largest ever levied by the FTC in a consumer protection case. The more ominous part is the consent decree Herbalife signed as part of its deal to avoid litigation and put the matter behind them. As part of its settlement, the company agreed to provide proof going forward that its products are being sold to actual customers—something Ackman, CEO of Pershing Square Capital Management, had been seeking since launching his assault on the company in December 2012. (In the decree Herbalife neither admits nor denies wrongdoing.)
While the decree's terms may be strong medicine even for Herbalife, they would likely cripple, if not kill off, many of its competitors in what's known as the direct selling, or multi-level marketing, industry. That category includes companies like USANA (USNA, +0.39%), Nu Skin (NUS, +0.31%), Amway, and Avon Products."
"Multi-level marketing (MLMs) companies use independent contractors to both sell their products and to recruit additional independent contractors to sell their products. They are paid commission fees based not only on their own wholesale purchases from the company—intended either for resale to retail customers or for personal consumption—but also on the purchases of their recruits and on the purchases of their recruits' recruits, and so on.
Most MLMs bear at least a superficial similarity to illegal pyramid schemes, where early joiners make out like bandits but later participants inevitably lose their money since, mathematically, there's no one left to recruit. In a pyramid scheme, distributors buy product from the company just to manipulate the compensation system, not because they really want to consume it or resell it. (For that reason, inventory may pile up in garages or be dumped for resale at a pittance on the internet.) In 1979, the FTC accepted the notion that MLMs were not categorically illegal, at least so long as they followed certain rules—known as the Amway rules, because of the case that established the precedent—that were supposed to ensure that when MLM distributors bought product from the company they were really consuming or reselling that inventory...
Over the years, however, both the FTC and the courts have grown skeptical that these rules—which nearly every MLM claims to follow—are really being enforced or that they are, in any case, sufficient to prevent an MLM from devolving into a pyramid scheme. The consent decree Herbalife signed Friday replaces the weak, difficult-to-enforce Amway rules with robust, verifiable proof that products are reaching good-faith consumers."
This section provides a list of groups that are allegedly support Islamic extremist ideology, although the definition of "Islamic extremism" is ambiguous and often controversial. Can this list be re-written so that it describes these groups in more objective terms? Jarble ( talk) 00:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
There has been a really great conversation at Talk:Criticism of Walmart and I'm looking for more editors to join the discussion. To summarize: Wikipedians have noticed and have begun attempts to fix the Criticism of Walmart article, which is full of WP:UNDUE and WP:POV content, and is far from encyclopedic in areas. Some editors have suggested throwing out the article and starting from scratch, while others have said the article would take a "massive" effort to clean up properly. The issue is no one knows where to start. I posted this same question to Wikipedia:Village pump, where George Ho recommended I seek input at this noticeboard. So here I am. Input and advice from additional editors could be a huge benefit to finding a way forward in cleaning up Criticism of Walmart. As one of Walmart's representatives on Wikipedia, I have a conflict of interest and I do not feel comfortable making suggestions as to whether the editors should try to correct the existing article or start over by reducing it to a stub, as has been suggested by others. I am, however, willing to help with whatever "grunt" work is necessary to assist other editors in fixing the page (providing references, assisting with identifying inaccuracies, etc.). Any insight is valuable and appreciated. Thanks, JLD at Walmart ( talk) 19:08, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
JLD and Kendall-K1, I think the entire article should be scrapped. I haven't touched the article since January I believe. Also, Kendall-K1, when I checked references, I had the same problem you did, the refs didn't didn't support what was claimed, or they were dead links. That's why I tried to remove the links. I wasn't trying to go against any Wikipedia policies when removing the links, my thinking (which was probably wrong) was that if the refs didn't support what was stated, they should be removed. I only did that because I read a lot of BLPs on Wikipedia, and on the talk pages for BLPs, you have to have a reference, or Wikipedia could get in legal trouble, so I figured the same would be true for an article about Walmart. I apologize if I caused you any trouble Kendall-K1, I did enjoy working with you on the article. I also think it's nice to work with someone like JDL. You're upfront and honest, and to echo what Kendall-K1 wrote, you don't act like a corporate shill. Paige Matheson ( talk) 02:17, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Since 2010 I have edited and added to a Wikipedia page concerning a UK based rock page (now relocated to another EU country).
I seek advice of how to deal with repeated edits to the band's page being made by a former member of one version of the band who believes he has been badly treated and has rights to trade under the band's name. He also adds links to his current projects (unconnected) and to defamatory information on the band's founder and current members posted on a similarly named webpage he owns (which IMO is an abusive registration). I don't want to get into edit wars but don't really know what else to do.
I have declared a interest as a friend of the band's founder but also declare truthfully that I have no financial interest in the band and am not in any way contracted to edit the wikipedia article. The subject of the page might fairly be described as having somewhat limited tech understanding and I edit the page as a favour to him. Until recently this has been an uncontroversial process merely adding new releases and changes to band personnel etc.
The band in question have existed in various forms since the early 1980s and all their material has been composed by the band's founder who is also the only person to have been in all incarnations of the band.
Following an acrimonious split from the band, a individual who was a touring member of the band for about a year has posted untrue and libellous statements on a website he has registered with the band's name (merely buying a domain with a different suffix). He now posts links to those statements on the band's Wikipedia page, in a way which suggests this is agreed by the band's founder and reverts any changes made. This person has not declared a conflict of interest though that is obvious. He also adds links to his websites in external links and promotes his current band which has no connection with the original band other than having two members who played briefly in the subject band and a very similar name to the original band. During his membership of the band, the band only performed material written by the founder. In fairness, this person (the former band member) did record and produce an album of old hits of the band and organised two tours of Spain in 2015 and 2016. His contribution during that period is not in dispute nor is his right to claim that he was unfairly treated by the band's founder and management (and lost money as a result) though of course that is disputed. However I do not believe that Wikipedia is the place to grind an axe particularly when it involves links to material of a personal and libellous nature including financial information.
As is often the case in the entertainments industry disagreements arose and the band split with the former member claiming he now owned the band and would continue without the founder member. It is fair to say that the band is almost entirely a vehicle for the founder member who not only wrote all the material but also sings it and has a distinctive style. Once promoters realised that the founder was no longer in the band attempting to tour under the original name, further engagements were cancelled.
The founder member recruited new band members (to join the three members of the previous band who remained) and continues to tour and has produced and released an album of new material. He is very well known in the EU country in which he now lives and enjoys much TV and Radio coverage.
Ideally someone neutral would edit the Wikipedia page but I don't know how one 'recruits' such a person. At very least I think that the person doing these edits should declare a COI and the links to his disputed version of events which led to the split - which are not verified by other neutral sources - should not have a place on the page.
I have not mentioned the name of the band here as I do not want to fan the flames further.
Any advice on how to proceed would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lleolyons ( talk • contribs) 11:50, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I have started an RFC here on the topic of how time should be given in article text. It is possible that a few involved editors are biased due to the way such things are written in their own countries and languages. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:12, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
This Timeline of scandals related to Russian interference in the 2016 US presidential election and attempts to impeach Donald Trump needs goof look at, maybe even an AFD. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:47, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
The article on Functional Medicine [ [25]] is very biased and the bias is obvious in both tone and quality of cited sources. The talk page here [ [26]] makes a clear point that even the definition of functional medicine, even when appropriately cited, is consistently removed from the article.
It appears after thoroughly reading the talk page that there IS a consensus, and that the consensus is that the article is biased, and yet attempts to fix it are consistently reverted. Hence, I am added the article to this list for 3rd party review. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.184.213.72 ( talk) 03:51, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Is it ever appropriate for Wikipedia to describe a person, movement, or viewpoint as "misogynistic"? This has cropped up in some articles pertaining to the manosphere (e.g. Robert Fisher (New Hampshire politician) which said, "In 2017, The Daily Beast claimed that Fisher was the founder and a moderator, under the alias pk_atheist, of the subreddit 'TheRedPill', known for its misogynistic views", and 2014_Isla_Vista_killings#Misogyny, which says, "Rodger frequented online forums such as PUAHate and /r/ForeverAlone where he and other men posted misogynistic statements about women"), with some editors saying it's an example of calling a spade a spade.
If advocating traditional sex roles is misogynistic, then there are quite a lot of historical figures ( such as Paul the apostle) who would have to be regarded as misogynistic (rather than merely "sexist," as I've more commonly seen them described).
It's a bit jarring to see people throw the rather strong word "misogynistic" around so much these days, but maybe the meaning of the word has changed, or people have changed their standards of what kind of ideas count as misogynistic. It definitely seems like a pejorative term, as I've never heard of anyone who would describe himself as a misogynist. Compy book ( talk) 16:54, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
I have read quite a bit about editor bullying on Wikipedia, but had never once had imagined I would experience this myself. Moreover the comments by your Editor Houn are downright condescending!
I am an experinced University Professor (Tenured Full), the autor of two textbooks and the supervisor of over 50 dissertations. See my profile on: www.LinkedIn.com/in/ashleyfrankfinance
Having been slapped with a POV tag, whichI believed was unnecessary I was confronted by two editors, the first of whom was quite polite, but the response from Houn is downright condescending: "I would expect that, as a university professor, you're well aware of what kinds of sources are reliable. Accepting their own website as the sole source for such claims as having "faithfully preserved" apostolic succession doesn't seem like academic rigor to me; is that the standard you'd apply when writing a paper for publication in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal? Other parts of the content you wrote cited no references at all but the Bible; the last time I read the KJV, it didn't have anything to say about the Evangelical Anglican Church In America. Thus to me it seems you were mostly summarizing what the EACA has to say about itself, not what independent sources have reported about it; that indeed is not the way to write a neutral encyclopedia article". Huon (talk) 02:12, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
First it is impossible to write an article describing a faith-based group without describing what they believe, and it is only they who can describe what they believe! It is not any encyclopedias responsibility to check the accuracy of belief-based material which is supplied by the the group. How do I or should I even find a third party collatoration in describing the validity of someones belief? That is absurd!
In particular the dispute revolved around the use of "faifully preserved" in describing the succession of a church. To put this in context, lets assume a couple marry promising to be faithful to each other. Assuming that one partner is able to provide a written record which "demonstrates" fidelity (if such was possible). What would be wrong with saying that the marital vows have been "faithfully kept" and referencing the written record? Scientific method has to do ultimately with dispute and how would anyone dispute this statement? If you can't dispute it you will have to take it on face-value.
Referencing your own article on "Theology", the tension between faith (which cannot be independently referenced) and the scientific method has been long established: "Much of the debate concerning theology's place in the university or within a general higher education curriculum centres on whether theology's methods are appropriately theoretical and (broadly speaking) scientific or, on the other hand, whether theology requires a pre-commitment of faith by its practitioners."
The comment "Thus to me it seems you were mostly summarizing what the EACA has to say about itself" is improper criticism, how else do you document a belief? Look for example at the Wikipedia article on the Roman Catholic church, at least 80% of the references cited come from the church itself. In describing faith, the scientific method cannot be appropriately applied, simply because faith, by its very nature, cannot be indepependently tested and verified.
The comments made by Editor Houn are simply disrespectful and I shall not be submitting further work to your site.
Prof. Ashley G. Frank, DCom, MBA — Preceding unsigned comment added by HolyOil ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
The section Diego Garcia#Arrival of the US Navy uses grossly POV language, including scare quotes and labeling some actions as "greusome". - Bri ( talk) 15:43, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
The current Sexual addiction article has previously been flagged (by others) for NPOV problems and being overly technical. I have been attempting to clean up the article to address these concerns. However, some editors are reverting every single change using 'mass reverts' rather than re-edits or engagement with the issue at hand. A key problem with the NPOV status of this page is the diagnosis section. Sex addiction is NOT a diagnosis in any of the diagnostic frameworks (DSM, ICD10 etc) having been considered many times by the relevant expert committees and deliberately and explicitly excluded. However, the wiki page lists various unrelated diagnoses, in an apparent attempt to use association fallacy. Just because A is an accepted condition it does not mean that B is accepted by association because it shares a single property (in this case sex/sexuality).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cogsci101 ( talk • contribs) 11:07, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
An editor has twice changed the terminology at Mediumship to present the practice as an irrefutable fact (see [27] and [28]). I have tried to make the language a bit less judgemental (see [29]) but I see some words I have used (such as "purportedly") are discouraged by WP:WEASELWORDS. Has anyone got any suggestions? Basically the line science takes on it is that it is an "open line of inquiry" but it has never conclusively found evidence of psychic phenomena, and inevitably comes up against that old quandary that you cannot prove a negative. Betty Logan ( talk) 19:24, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Multiple discussions on the article talk page have tried to resolve this issue. At Iron Fist (TV series), the introduction of the article, at the moment, says, "The series received mixed reviews from critics." This was added after an editor challenged the introduction saying that the series received generally negative reviews. The editor argued that "mixed to negative" is more accurate, and then settled on "mixed" when it was clear that "mixed to negative" would not be added. Since then, the introduction has said "mixed." Some editors have maintained that "mixed" is fine, while others have argued that "mixed" is at odds with what the overwhelming majority of sources report on the critical reception for the series; for example, with the use of sources, I have argued that saying "mixed" in the lead is a WP:Due violation. See Talk:Iron Fist (TV series)#"Mixed to negative" is unsourced for where the dispute started and for sources offered. 72.213.205.141 ( talk) 18:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
The Christian feast of Pentecost celebrates an event that according to the Acts of the Apostles (part of the Christian Bible) took place while the Apostles of Jesus were in Jerusalem during the Jewish festival Shavuot. The word Pentecost derives from the ancient Greek name for that Jewish festival. That is well-attested and uncontroversial. Western Christians will be celebrating the feast of Pentecost this weekend, and I imagine the article will see an uptick in traffic over the next day or two – especially as since 2005 it has appeared on the Main Page every time it has been celebrated. Over the past three days, User:Seraphim System has suddenly become very active on that page. For the most part they have been removing information they say overloads the article. But they have also added a section on the etymology of the word pentecost that gets more confusingly worded at every edit, seems to want to distinguish sharply between pentecost and shavuot (they insist that "pentecost is not a translation of Feast of Weeks" – they have removed the word "shavuot" itself in both English and Hebrew), and relies heavily (three citations in two short paragraphs) on the work of Gerhard Kittel, an important biblical scholar but also a known Nazi. Reliable sources recommend his work be used with careful and critical discernment but Seraphim System insists his lexicon is a standard and unproblematically reliable secondary source. Another main thrust has been that the word "pentecost" is "not in the Old Testament" – an irrelevance to the question of etymology, since the word is attested in ancient texts, both Jewish and Christian, as the Greek name for the Jewish festival; but also non-neutral since many Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, some Protestants) do regard two of the texts in question as part of the Old Testament, although most Protestants do not. The editor seems oblivious to the idea that the canonical status of an ancient text does not affect its value as a source for ancient words. I've tried a few rewrites and reverted a couple of particularly problematic edits, but draw back from 3 reverts in a day. The editor in question is nothing if not persistent. I've engaged on the article talk page at Talk:Pentecost/Archive 1#Septuagint_2 and responded to the editor on my own talkpage. I have tried (without on every occasion succeeding) to do so with patience and good humour. It is clear now that we keep going round in circles, with the editor asking for the same things to be explained again and again, asking about my personal POV, asserting that "this is sourced", asserting that the Nazi in question heroically disapproved of other Nazis going so far as to murder Jews, etc. I now want to disengage and get community input. It may seem abstruse, a content dispute about the meaning of a single ancient Greek word, but with the topic of the article just two days away (and likely to appear on the main page) I am concerned about the direction that the editor is taking this. -- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 00:04, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic- This is the last edit I made to the section, which is sourced to multiple WP:RS [30] — I am not sure why Andreas Philopater feels using "The Feast of Pentecost" for Pentecost is an NPOV issue. The etymology section needs to explain that different terms were used in the Septuagint for Pentecost and "Festival of Weeks" — the previous article said "Pentecost" was used in Deuteronomy 16:10 and Exodus 34:22 - it is not. This term was used in Greek texts — as far as I know, it is not a term in Hebrew, and the texts that were translated from Hebrew into Greek for the Septuagint used a different term. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with whether or not Kittel was a Nazi, but maybe someone can explain it to me. Seraphim System ( talk) 09:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
@ Howcheng: Thank you Seraphim System ( talk) 09:17, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
I have started a RfC [32] on a certain contentious statement in this article, please help resolve the dispute. I should say though that the article is under discretionary sanctions - edit carefully! Banedon ( talk) 00:52, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
This RfC decided that the Daily Mail should not be used as a source in Wikipedia articles. This is problematic, because some writers for the Daily Mail have Wikipedia biographies. With this edit I used direct quotes from the Daily Mail, made by Katie Hopkins, on the Katie Hopkins Wikipedia article. My edits were reverted. I could understand prohibiting editorial content from the Daily Mail, but in this instance the Daily Mail is the only source for the quotes I used. Without permitting the subject of this BLP to state her opinion, the neutrality and fairness of the article is skewed. This undermines the integrity of WP:NPOV and WP:CRITS. Out of fairness to the subject of this BLP, an exception should be made to permit the use of the blacklisted source. Thank you. Magnolia677 ( talk) 13:50, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Assuming inclusion of the quote is appropriate, we could care less if it was published by NYTimes or the DMisn't quite the case—part of the reason the Mail is deprecated as a source is their history of falsifying quotes (given that the context is Manchester, this story may be pertinent). In a case like this, I'd see no issue with using the Mail as a source, since it's essentially a story about a Mail article in which the paper is being treated as a primary, not a secondary, source. ‑ Iridescent 08:50, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
Re: my earlier comment ("If you look at WP:DAILYMAIL you will see the reason why we do not allow it except under exceptional circumstances. The reason is that they deliberately fabricate direct quotes, deliberately publish doctored photos, etc. Read the evidence posted in the RfC. A Daily mail article under Hopkins byline can be reasonably presumed to contain the words of Hopkins; she would complain if they made stuff up and published it under his byline. That makes it one of the exceptional circumstances."), I would emphasize that we are talking about two entirely different kinds of quotes. We have multiple examples of the DM fabricating direct quotes as in a claim that prosecutors said X at the close of a murder case written before the case closed. We have zero examples of the DM publishing material under a person's byline, paying them for their work, then printing something other than what they actually wrote. The first time we catch the DM doing that we will stop using DM articles penned by a specific person as a source. Right now, a reasonable person would conclude that it is OK to presume that DM articles penned by a specific person contain the words of that specific person, especially if that specific person does not complain about his words being changed but rather goes on to sell the DM further articles on other topics. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 13:26, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
Speaking as a closer of the RFC, we could not anticipate every possible use of the DM as a source in our close, which is why we tried to carve out some wriggle room for legitimate uses. This appears to be a legitimate use of the DM, because it is likely to be reliable in this specific case. It is still preferable to use a non-DM source if/when they become available. However, the DM does not have a reputation for altering the words of the author of the piece, so this can be taken as one of the exceptions we tried to write into the close. If I seem to be misunderstanding something, please ping me
Tazerdadog (
talk) 17:01, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Brought to AfD to assess notability at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Kiyosaki. Sagecandor ( talk) 19:24, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Is it okay to add a {{ POV}} template at the top of the page, for the entire length of time of an RFC about the intro section, while the RFC is ongoing?
Could use more eyes on this, please.
Thank you ! Sagecandor ( talk) 22:37, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
The article for United States District Judge Algenon L. Marbley has seen long term POV issues, with non-POV material being inserted and subsequently removed. Such material was reinserted on June 7, 2017, by a one shot IP editor. In 2013 and 2014, the problem was bad enough that the article was protected on several occasions, but activity is now on an infrequent hit and run basis. Because the material is not an outright BLP violation, I have chosen NOT to revert it, but rather report it. The issues raised are actually valid, they are simply presented in a non-POV manner. If somebody was willing to take some time to re-write some of that material in a POV-compliant manner, I think the problem would likely go away. My hands are full with my current project and probably better if somebody with a fresh set of eyes handles this. Thanks. Safiel ( talk) 18:38, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Pamela Geller, who rose to prominence as the head of a campaign to stop the building of an Islamic centre near the site of the 11 September 2001 attacks, is described by academic sources as a prominent activist for the counter-jihad movement in the United States. I have compiled a couple of academic citations on my talk space: User:Al-Andalusi/Pamela Geller.
The question, is the inclusion of the statement "She is a prominent activist for the counter-jihad movement in the United States" in the lead of her article appropriate or not? We have a user here who claims that this is "apologist language" used by "a lot of apologists for islamophobia". Your help is appreciated. Al-Andalusi ( talk) 04:23, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
and also as aShe's relentlessly shrill and coarse in her broad-brush denunciations of Islam and makes preposterous claims, such as that President Obama is the "love child" of Malcolm X. She makes no pretense of being learned in Islamic studies, leaving the argumentative heavy lifting to her Stop Islamization of America partner Robert Spencer. Geller has mingled comfortably with European racists and fascists, spoken favorably of South African racists, defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps.
prominent anti-Muslim activist[1]
References
I think there's a big problem with the text "Multiple groups have described Geller as Islamophobic". Neither cited source supports this "multiple groups" claim properly. SPLC has a tendency to be go OTT sometimes: they described Majid Nawaz as an extremist for example [33] - they're not suitable as a source for asserted fact. Alexbrn ( talk) 16:58, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
No idea what to make of this. Issue was previously discussed, and I thought resolved, here. Argument was made here that the claim should not be removed without re-adding the previous information, which I accept, but this doesn't apply to the above situation.
Thoughts?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 00:34, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
RfC about the author credits of first edition in first sentence in a book article.
Please see Request for Comment, at Talk:Trump_Tower:_A_Novel#RfC_about_the_author_credits_of_first_edition_in_first_sentence. Sagecandor ( talk) 02:38, 21 June 2017 (UTC)