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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Alyssa Pereira (December 21, 2016). "These were the most edited Wikipedia pages of 2016". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved December 22, 2016. The 2016 Presidential election sure brought the world a lot of stress. It also brought the world a lot of misinformation. That could be one reason why so many of the most edited Wikipedia pages of 2016 were politically related. ... 2016 United States election interference by Russia (641) Omer Benjakob (10 January 2017). "How Crazy Was Last Year? The 15 Most Controversial Wikipedia Articles [of 2017] Paint a Dark Picture". Haaretz. Retrieved May 20, 2018. Media outlets around the world recently compiled their annual stories on the most popular Wikipedia articles of the year. ... Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections

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• [1] - I can not include it in the lead because word "espionage" does not appear anywhere on this page. Why it should be in the first phrase? What they did is known as active measures, not just espionage aka intelligence collection. My very best wishes ( talk) 22:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC) reply

  But what did they do? Your paragraph is incomprehensible and senseless but it sounds like you're upset that the article isn't harsh enough on the unidentified hackers who exposed the cheating of the DNC through Clinton's, Schultz', and Podesta's emails. 24.156.30.244 ( talk) 13:12, 29 January 2024 (UTC) reply

  They explained that the issue was, the lede (please read wp:lede is a summery of the article, So if the word does not appear in the body, it has no place in lede. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC) reply

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The page says that there was election interference by the Russians in the 2016 election. There was an investigation and no proof was found this is true 108.59.178.70 ( talk) 03:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC) reply

 Not done: read the article and all the cited sources you find interesting Cannolis ( talk) 03:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Should Russiagate rediect here? Please see discussion there. Right now this term is not even mention in article body here, and it is used in other contexts in various works (ex. referring to a 1990s scandal or recent EU parliament scandals). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:50, 7 February 2024 (UTC) reply

It's strange that it doesn't. Normally both the article and talk page redirect. Go for it. Someday, maybe someone will write about the conspiratorial uses of the term and we can point it there. Its use is usually a tell that exposes the user as a MAGA believer in conspiracy theories that deny the Russians interfered in the election. Until then, this is probably the best target. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 04:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Valjean It does, my question was - should it? The term is used in other contexts, we need a disambig/hatnote, and anyway, it is weird to have a redirect to an article that does not use the term. Anyway, isn't the conspiracy theory at Russia investigation origins counter-narrative? (Some folks in the past also proposed the name Russiagate conspiracy theory, which right now is not a redirect even...). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC) reply

When I said that it's "strange that it doesn't", I was referring to the heading ( Talk:Russiagate). Normally both the article and talk page redirect to the same target. There shouldn't be any discussion occurring there where few are watching.

AFAIK, the term "Russiagate" has nothing to do with the conspiracy described at Russia investigation origins counter-narrative. That has to do with the origins of the Russia investigation, with MAGA blaming the Steele dossier and Ukraine, both of which are wrong. This is the best target, in a weird sort of way. "Russiagate" is used by those who claim there was no Russian interference at all, or if any, of no consequence, and certainly without any help from Trump or attempt to aid his election. They are claiming this whole Russia investigation was just a witch hunt against Trump, so " Russiagate conspiracy theory" would be the ideal target. It's hard to create such an article based almost exclusively on unreliable sources. They do not have enough due weight to meet GNG.

The "Russiagate conspiracy theory" is a term used by MAGA to describe the beliefs that led to this investigation. Those beliefs were that the Russians interfered to help Trump (and investigations found this was the case) and that the Trump campaign, in some form, either cooperated, collaborated, or even coordinated / conspired with the Russians in these endeavors. The only part of that which has not been proven is "conspiracy", which involves "coordination". And even that was not disproven. Otherwise, there is plenty of evidence of cooperation, collusion, and collaboration between the Trump campaign and Russia, and even some evidence of conspiracy (Manafort's sharing of polling data while he was campaign chairman) and attempted coordination (Roger Stone and WikiLeaks).

You may find my reply here of interest. Unfortunately, even mainstream media fell for Trump's denial rhetoric and lost interest in "collusion" and "cooperation" when Mueller was unable to prove "conspiracy". Mueller made a good effort to explain that they were not synonymous, and he treated them very differently. The media's failure to continue their coverage is an unforgivable lapse in logic and due diligence on their part. They should have continued to pursue Trump for his cooperation with Russian efforts. They should be uncovering why he never criticizes Putin. They should be covering the things Mueller did not seriously pursue because Trump obstructed his efforts. Mueller just gave up and didn't subpoena Trump or force him to testify in person. He allowed Trump to lie again and again and didn't prosecute him for it. Oh, well, that's because Mueller had to look the other way and pretend it didn't happen. After all, he had a mandate to not find anything that could lead to the indictment of a sitting president. An odd situation, that one. Try this search. Here are some good articles 1 2 3. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 02:47, 8 February 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Valjean I appreciate your analysis - I am not as familiar with US politics as you are, clearly. But I think we are off topic, since my concerns here are about Wikipedia. First and foremost, what is the primary meaning of Russiagate? While it is plausible it is something related to Trump and the issues described here, the term is clearly used to refer to several other unrelated scandals related to Russia, some not even related to US. Second, if the primary meaning is here (as the redirect implies), why is this term not mentioned in the article body? And third, since this concerns the meaning of Russiagate, and not this article, yes, I believe Talk:Russiagate is the place to discuss it. Although we can have a discussion here too - it does not seem like many folks are flocking to discuss this, so far it is just you and me here. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:25, 8 February 2024 (UTC) reply

PS. In case this was not clear, I was trying to invite people watching this page to comment at Talk:Russiagate#This_should_be_a_disambig. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:26, 8 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Ahh! I understand, and that makes sense. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 07:14, 8 February 2024 (UTC) reply

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Newest sources say : it was Hillary that Russia wanted to win. She was more manageable than D. Trump. 2600:1009:B150:5D19:85D:3282:C500:6338 ( talk) 11:30, 16 February 2024 (UTC) reply

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Czello ^{( music)} 11:31, 16 February 2024 (UTC) reply

...especially the section Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections#Non-U.S. intelligence

The following article by Taibbi contains a long list of the conspiracy theorists (and their unreliable sources) who oppose the narrative told by all the reliable sources behind this and other articles. Those who believe him and those on his list create a lot of disruption in our articles regarding the proven Russian interference. They are all very unreliable sources, so don't try to use this as a source here. Stuff like this is why we keep getting misinformed people here who complain:

• Many Reporters Paid for Covering the Russiagate Story. Media figures who exposed illegal surveillance, manufactured intelligence, and other abuses in the Trump-Russia investigation almost always paid a price. by Matt Taibbi, Feb 16, 2024

This is just for the curious who want to learn more about what the fringe is saying. Their tell is that they call it "Russiagate", as if all the accusations about the interference by Russia, and Trump's cooperation with that interference, are a false conspiracy theory. They are pushing Russian/Trump/GOP disinformation. They are more concerned with Russia's reputation than with the concerns raised when multiple allied intelligence agencies discovered by chance the many suspicious communications between Trump's people and Russian intelligence agents. Instead of being suspicious of the cooperation and communication between Trump's campaign and Russian intelligence agents, Taibbi and his list defend them.

So learn the names of these conspiracy theorists and their unreliable sources. Most of the time they are not published by RS, and most of the time they should be deleted on sight:

• Matt Taibbi
• Aaron Maté
• Kash Patel
• Michael Shellenberger
• Ray McGovern former CIA officer
• Dan Bongino
• Glenn Greenwald
• John Solomon
• Larry Johnson former CIA operative
• Maria Bartiromo
• Lee Smith
• Jeff Gerth
• Paul Sperry
• Alexandra Gutentag
• Margot Cleveland
• Chuck Ross
• JustTheNews
• RealClearInvestigations
• Public
• Racket
• “Sleuth’s Corner” of @Walkafyre, @TECHNO_FOG, @RyanM58699717, @climateaudit, @FOOL_NELSON, and @Hmmm57474203.

These were all listed by Taibbi, and most of them are familiar to those who notice what the fringes say. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 04:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Can you understand how this comment might go a long way towards undermining trust in wikipedia? I know not many people go to talk pages and perhaps those who do already have firmly established priors that won't be budged. Bongino, Bartiromo, Patel, and Solomon would never say a bad word about one side or a good thing about the other. I have no problem with warning Wikipedians to not rely on anything they say that is consequential to this page. From a brief look at Larry Johnson's page he should probably go in that pile too. A few others are mixed. I don't wish ill on Trump but I wish he would go away and never run for office again. Would you be willing to give me an honest answer to this question? I don't think these 3 are without flaws that cloud their judgement. But if you were to just stack up Greenwald, Taibbi, and Maté's track record of getting the basic shape of this investigation correct against our biggest newspapers and non-fox networks who would you say has been closer to the things we think we know now? (I'm not giving Fox any credit for not being on that list. They would never be honest about any substantive Trump flaw).

Do you think what I'm saying is unreasonable? I'm not saying I have any more insight on this topic than anyone else. Is it unreasonable of me to find the following two quotes inappropriate: "learn the names of these conspiracy theorists and their unreliable sources" and "most of the time they should be deleted on sight."? And I'm not talking about the minutiae, I'll grant you that there are rules to posting on Wikipedia that would preclude them from being RS's. But can you see how the spirit of those two quotes would make even someone who isn't at all rooting for the electoral success of Trump to be much more skeptical than before of this sight?

Sorry it got so long and I mean no disrespect. Groteth ( talk) 06:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC) reply

"Greenwald, Taibbi, and Maté" and Solomon are behind much of the disinformation we're seeing. They went down the Giuliani rabbit hole and believed the Russian disinfo he got from Russian agents in Ukraine. That was a Trump operation to create fake news that would move blame from Trump to Biden, and it failed (at least with RS and here), but there are still people who believe it. I used to be a fan of Taibbi and Greenwald (and Giuliani), but when they abandoned good journalistic practices (and suffered the consequences), it was a sad day. Once the conspiracy theory mindset is well-established, all is lost.

We delete unreliable sources when they are used, and that's basically what this thread is about. That's what misinforms those who complain here. That's all. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 07:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I would want to know what they're being used as sources for, as I think "Barry the dancing hamster" would be a reliable source for a quote from Barry then dancing hamster. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, WP:ABOUTSELF still governs how we can cite them in their own articles here, and if published by a RS, we might consider whether to cite them in other articles, all while keeping in mind not to give undue weight to fringe and deceptive opinions. Our remit here is to document the sum of all human knowledge, and that includes documenting falsehoods, conspiracy theories, propaganda, and other nonsense.

The only legitimate way we can do that is by citing RS when they mention the nonsense, and that happens all the time. That enables us to determine due weight and include the framing from RS, which will usually be citing nonsense in the context of criticizing, debunking, and deconstructing it. We then include the POV of the RS, which has more due weight than the nonsense they are discussing.

Nonsense and lies should always be framed and identified as such by using descriptive words like pseudoscience, falsehood, etc. We are not purveyors of nonsense. We do not leave it up to the reader to determine what is true or false. We let RS do that by citing how RS describe it. When there is a disagreement between RS, we do not take sides, but when there is a disagreement between RS and fringe sources, we side with RS, because all of our content is based on RS. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 18:27, 17 February 2024 (UTC) reply