- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. I see a consensus to Keep this article. Liz Read! Talk! 03:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
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- List of Spanish musicians ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:SALAT, the scope of the list is too broad. There are more than 2300 pages in Category:Spanish musicians, this list is useless without further subdivision. Broc ( talk) 21:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Lists of people, Lists, and Spain. Broc ( talk) 21:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Could be subdivided alphabetically when needed Atlantic306 ( talk) 21:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep
Template:Musicians by country shows these articles are common, wouldn't make sense to have one country not on the list. Being incomplete is not a valid reason to delete any article, nor is the arguments "its useless". If there was a bot someone could run to grab basic information from the infoboxes of the articles linked to, and add that to table formation, years active, what type of music they play, etc, it'd be more useful.
Dream Focus
00:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- My argument is not that the list is incomplete. A list of 2300 entries would be far too wieldy, and the potential entries that do not yet have a Wikipedia article are even more. According to
WP:SALAT
Lists that are too general or too broad in scope have little value, unless they are split into sections
, hence my comment about the usefulness of the list. In particular, I am concerned by having an endless and incomplete list of blue links, with no additional information, and no curation. The argument "these articles are common" is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Most of these lists were created in the early years of Wikipedia (when they maybe contained only a handful of entries) and have been kept per status quo, but now have no reason to exist. Broc ( talk) 17:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)- The size of a list is never a valid reason for deletion. Many list simply break off into smaller list when they get too large. List of aircraft, Lists_of_stars#By_proximity, etc. Dream Focus 00:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- My argument is not that the list is incomplete. A list of 2300 entries would be far too wieldy, and the potential entries that do not yet have a Wikipedia article are even more. According to
WP:SALAT
- Delete per WP:LISTCRIT -- more specifically, poorly defined inclusion criteria -- what does originating from Spain mean? If a person is born in Spain but moves to another country at an early age, does that count? Or vice versa? What about at a later age? What about citizenship change? What about very old entries where "Spain" then wasn't the same as "Spain" now? Using modern political boundaries as a subdivider is inherently problematic, which brings to my next point -- this is also an unencyclopedic cross-categorization. There's no end to the different combination of ways you could subdivide. Is this using "musician" to subdivide a "list of Spaniards", or is it using "Spanish" to subdivide a "list of musicians"? Why not by style/genre instead? Or birth year? Or alphabetical? This sort of random intersection of properties is best left for Wikidata. 35.139.154.158 ( talk) 16:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - This debate is probably going to end with "no consensus" due to conflicting WP policies. This list of Spanish musicians probably violates
WP:SALAT and
WP:LISTCRIT because it's just a poorly-defined and never-ending pile of blue links. On the other hand, different WP policies would support this article's existence because of many similar list articles found at
Template:Musicians by country. But if you browse all the other country lists, most of them have the exact same problems as this one. I submit that this is a bigger policy challenge beyond assessing the usefulness of this list about Spain, but an AfD discussion almost never results in deeper discussions of larger policy conflicts. ---
DOOMSDAYER520 (
TALK|
CONTRIBS)
14:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- @
Doomsdayer520 I do not see any conflicting policy. I see
WP:SALAT and
WP:LISTCRIT showing that this stand-alone list should not exist because too broad in coverage and with no clear inclusion criterion. I even see troubles with
WP:NLIST as I could not find a single source that publishes a full list of Spanish musicians. I see many entries in
Template:Musicians by country that could possibly deleted under the same arguments. Those lists have varied levels of curation and subcategorization, hence might deserve separate discussions. What would you suggest is the right forum for discussion, if not AfD?
Broc (
talk)
17:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- @ Broc - I agree with your assessment, but look at the "Keep" votes here which are also based on policy. I've seen this happen many times before and it will happen again. Here people will argue about this individual article and nobody will address bigger issues, probably not even the Admin who is guaranteed to say "No Consensus" at the end. Meanwhile, there are folks who discuss policies for lists and others who discuss policies for categories and others who discuss policies for templates etc. etc. etc. Just imagine getting them coordinated. --- DOOMSDAYER520 ( TALK| CONTRIBS) 12:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
Doomsdayer520 I do not see any conflicting policy. I see
WP:SALAT and
WP:LISTCRIT showing that this stand-alone list should not exist because too broad in coverage and with no clear inclusion criterion. I even see troubles with
WP:NLIST as I could not find a single source that publishes a full list of Spanish musicians. I see many entries in
Template:Musicians by country that could possibly deleted under the same arguments. Those lists have varied levels of curation and subcategorization, hence might deserve separate discussions. What would you suggest is the right forum for discussion, if not AfD?
Broc (
talk)
17:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Standard list for a topic notable as a set, with a clear defining criteria.- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 15:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts ( talk/ contributions) 01:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Please see Template:Musicians by country, There's a lot of these lists, and a random look at some seems to indicate that none of these have sourcing. They're just existing lists by country. Some are just alphabetical lists, and others include really nice images. If we keep these lists, I don't see how we can cherry pick and eliminate certain ones, but keep the others. — Maile ( talk) 02:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per Dreamfocus. Mccapra ( talk) 04:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. I see a consensus to Keep this article. Liz Read! Talk! 03:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of Spanish musicians ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:SALAT, the scope of the list is too broad. There are more than 2300 pages in Category:Spanish musicians, this list is useless without further subdivision. Broc ( talk) 21:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Lists of people, Lists, and Spain. Broc ( talk) 21:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Could be subdivided alphabetically when needed Atlantic306 ( talk) 21:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep
Template:Musicians by country shows these articles are common, wouldn't make sense to have one country not on the list. Being incomplete is not a valid reason to delete any article, nor is the arguments "its useless". If there was a bot someone could run to grab basic information from the infoboxes of the articles linked to, and add that to table formation, years active, what type of music they play, etc, it'd be more useful.
Dream Focus
00:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- My argument is not that the list is incomplete. A list of 2300 entries would be far too wieldy, and the potential entries that do not yet have a Wikipedia article are even more. According to
WP:SALAT
Lists that are too general or too broad in scope have little value, unless they are split into sections
, hence my comment about the usefulness of the list. In particular, I am concerned by having an endless and incomplete list of blue links, with no additional information, and no curation. The argument "these articles are common" is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Most of these lists were created in the early years of Wikipedia (when they maybe contained only a handful of entries) and have been kept per status quo, but now have no reason to exist. Broc ( talk) 17:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)- The size of a list is never a valid reason for deletion. Many list simply break off into smaller list when they get too large. List of aircraft, Lists_of_stars#By_proximity, etc. Dream Focus 00:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- My argument is not that the list is incomplete. A list of 2300 entries would be far too wieldy, and the potential entries that do not yet have a Wikipedia article are even more. According to
WP:SALAT
- Delete per WP:LISTCRIT -- more specifically, poorly defined inclusion criteria -- what does originating from Spain mean? If a person is born in Spain but moves to another country at an early age, does that count? Or vice versa? What about at a later age? What about citizenship change? What about very old entries where "Spain" then wasn't the same as "Spain" now? Using modern political boundaries as a subdivider is inherently problematic, which brings to my next point -- this is also an unencyclopedic cross-categorization. There's no end to the different combination of ways you could subdivide. Is this using "musician" to subdivide a "list of Spaniards", or is it using "Spanish" to subdivide a "list of musicians"? Why not by style/genre instead? Or birth year? Or alphabetical? This sort of random intersection of properties is best left for Wikidata. 35.139.154.158 ( talk) 16:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - This debate is probably going to end with "no consensus" due to conflicting WP policies. This list of Spanish musicians probably violates
WP:SALAT and
WP:LISTCRIT because it's just a poorly-defined and never-ending pile of blue links. On the other hand, different WP policies would support this article's existence because of many similar list articles found at
Template:Musicians by country. But if you browse all the other country lists, most of them have the exact same problems as this one. I submit that this is a bigger policy challenge beyond assessing the usefulness of this list about Spain, but an AfD discussion almost never results in deeper discussions of larger policy conflicts. ---
DOOMSDAYER520 (
TALK|
CONTRIBS)
14:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- @
Doomsdayer520 I do not see any conflicting policy. I see
WP:SALAT and
WP:LISTCRIT showing that this stand-alone list should not exist because too broad in coverage and with no clear inclusion criterion. I even see troubles with
WP:NLIST as I could not find a single source that publishes a full list of Spanish musicians. I see many entries in
Template:Musicians by country that could possibly deleted under the same arguments. Those lists have varied levels of curation and subcategorization, hence might deserve separate discussions. What would you suggest is the right forum for discussion, if not AfD?
Broc (
talk)
17:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- @ Broc - I agree with your assessment, but look at the "Keep" votes here which are also based on policy. I've seen this happen many times before and it will happen again. Here people will argue about this individual article and nobody will address bigger issues, probably not even the Admin who is guaranteed to say "No Consensus" at the end. Meanwhile, there are folks who discuss policies for lists and others who discuss policies for categories and others who discuss policies for templates etc. etc. etc. Just imagine getting them coordinated. --- DOOMSDAYER520 ( TALK| CONTRIBS) 12:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
Doomsdayer520 I do not see any conflicting policy. I see
WP:SALAT and
WP:LISTCRIT showing that this stand-alone list should not exist because too broad in coverage and with no clear inclusion criterion. I even see troubles with
WP:NLIST as I could not find a single source that publishes a full list of Spanish musicians. I see many entries in
Template:Musicians by country that could possibly deleted under the same arguments. Those lists have varied levels of curation and subcategorization, hence might deserve separate discussions. What would you suggest is the right forum for discussion, if not AfD?
Broc (
talk)
17:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Standard list for a topic notable as a set, with a clear defining criteria.- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 15:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts ( talk/ contributions) 01:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Please see Template:Musicians by country, There's a lot of these lists, and a random look at some seems to indicate that none of these have sourcing. They're just existing lists by country. Some are just alphabetical lists, and others include really nice images. If we keep these lists, I don't see how we can cherry pick and eliminate certain ones, but keep the others. — Maile ( talk) 02:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per Dreamfocus. Mccapra ( talk) 04:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.