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After reading the article and in particular the section on Belarus I noted a complete lack of neutrality and historical/geographical accuracy. I invite interested editors to have a closer look at the article and especially the segment about polonization of Western Belarus. References are also worth checking because I think they are misleading.-- Mamalala 05:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Relevant discussion at | → File talk:Subdue of Ruthenia in 1366.png#Cornerstone laying ceremony |
If I'm not mistaken, the original title of the
painting is "Powtórne zajęcie Rusi. Bogactwo i oświata". In the article it is rendered as "Ruthenia subdued". Wouldn't a more accurate translation be " The Re-occupation of Ruthenia. Wealth and education"? Dr. Dan ( talk) 16:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
There's a number of issues with the recently-added section on Belarus.
On a wider note, we could use some source to say that the grim situation of, say, Belarusian peasants near Hrodna was any different from the situation of, say, Polish peasants from around Kielce. Including police brutality and corruption among local officials and Army recruitment centres. // Halibu tt 10:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Another problematic section is the one on "Polish political terror". There's a number of disputable statements there (who the heck is this Valitzky S.? What "documents with Polish nationality" were there in pre-war Poland, as there was no such field in the contemporary passports or birth certificates and the military IDs listed only religion and not ethnicity), but more importantly there's a huge problem with the spirit of that part. It lists various facts from the history of Polish authorities' struggle against the Communist activists and suggests they were being persecuted not because they were Commies, but because they were Belarusians or Jews. Which is simply plainly wrong, Commie agents of Polish ethnicity were being put in prisons as well.
Let's seek some analogies. Are the Arab people in American prisons "Americanised" by the very fact that they are being held in American prisons? What about Irish people persecuted by the British authorities (for whatever reason, right or wrong, true or alleged)? Are they being "Anglicised" in British prisons because they are Irish, or perhaps because they were sentenced for their part in the IRA?
Simply put, it seems to me that this section could be moved to some other article and significantly expanded to show some perspective. History of Belarus? Communism in Poland? History of Polish police forces? // Halibu tt 11:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Answers:
Vlad, I don't tagwar, I simply want to improve the section you added so that it a) is readable, b) is well-sourced, c) represents more than your Belarusian POV. Assume good faith, will you?
Now, on to the issues you mentioned. As to Orthodox churches in Warsaw: no, I mean that it were the Russians themselves to demolish most Orthodox churches in Warsaw. Not Russian artillery or German artillery. The simple truth is that most Orthodox churches in Warsaw belonged to Russian garrisons. They were demolished by the retreating Russian troops already before 1915 (though some of them survived). Take for instance the Archangel Michael Archstrategist's Church at Al. Ujazdowskie street. It belonged to a Regiment of Guards stationed nearby, but once the regiment left Warsaw local Russian administration ordered the church to be stripped of any precious items - and it's tin roof was dismantled as well. As it was not replaced with anything the wooden structure started to rot and already in 1915 the new German authorities had to surround it with a fence so that nobody got hurt (as the church in 1915 was literally falling apart). The ruin was there for a couple more years until it was finally dismantled. Or Our Lady of Perpetual Help Church at Lindleya street. It was built as part of a huge hospital complex, as the hospital was being used by Russian garrison and needed a chapel. However, in 1915 the Russians managed to strip it of anything worth a penny and until early 1920s the building stood there empty. In the end it was decided to convert it to a Catholic church but in the end was demolished due to poor condition (yup, Catholic churches were being demolished as well). And another one, St. Olga's Church, in Łazienki Barracks, destroyed by the Russians already around 1906, the rebuilt and again abandoned. I guess most of your books would only mention the last part of the story ("bad Poles destroying precious churches"), but the truth is seldom as black and white. But this is OT here.
As to numbered issues (I hope you don't mind I will return to the numbered list, it's easier to keep track of what's been said).
And for the umpteenth time, please, let's settle the dispute here first, don't eliminate the tags from the main page just because it seems ok to you. Please. // Halibu tt 14:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
This is totally idiotic, it is obvious that Halibutt wants Vlad Fedorov to be victimized by forced Polonization that his, Halibutt, declares to be "good faith". -- 72.72.161.158 ( talk) 20:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
As there is apparently plenty of conflicting views on the scope of this article, what info should be included and how should it be presented, I took the liberty to ask for external review and comments from fellow Wikipedians. The basic conflict is around the sections on Belarus (see the section above for history of the conflict, as well as article's history), but all of this article could benefit from a peer review. // Halibu tt 21:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
I guess the primary problem in this case is putting the examples of policies of Polonization ( [1]) in list form and not in prose. That unnecessarily encourages making the items shorter. And shorter items are harder to make neutral and detailed. For example, the item "closure of Belarusian Orthodox churches" could be made more detailed and neutral by noting what happened to the buildings (Were they demolished? Were they abandoned? Or did they get a new owner? Maybe the fate of different buildings was not the same?), noting the reason that the Polish authorities gave (Did they claim it was done to help Polonization? For safety purposes? To undo the taking of Greek Catholic churches by Russian authorities?), and how did the Belarusians themselves see that. I hope other problems will be easier to solve after making the section more detailed. -- Martynas Patasius ( talk) 23:06, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Ghetto benches in polish universities were introduced in 1937 - two years after the dead of Józef Piłsudski. Accusing his regime for it is simple mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.25.146.82 ( talk) 12:14, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
There is a picture in the article with the following comment:
"Gravestone with removed German inscriptions in Gliwice (Southern Poland). Also visible is the changing of the name Karl into the Polish Karol."
The name on the grave is for 99% a name of Pole named Karol Okoń (okoń = perch). The most likely reason for putting germinized name in the first place on this grave was very common both in German and in Russian occupied partitions, forcing people to use new ruler's languages.
Giving as an example of polonisation the fact of wrining back in Polish name of Pole seems to be sarcastic(?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.167.78.239 ( talk) 12:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
You obviously did not even bother reading the talk page nor the reasons given, before you restored a whole slew of controversial and false-sourced edits made by a user who is currently (and deservedly) banned from the area of Eastern European topics. Even a cursory glance at the article history would have alerted you to the fact that the reason most of this was removed was simply because it's not in the sources given. The user in question added whatever text he fancied, then slapped on a inline citation of a source which didn't support the claim, to make it look legimtimate. Obviously this kind of dishonest editing - with a purpose of POV pushing (and here I mean *real* POV pushing, not what YOU accuse others of) - is obviously disruptive and does not belong in Wikipedia.
Since you're the one who insist on having this text added back in, the burden of proof is actually on YOU to show that the sources back up the claims made. But here, let me get you started, and just show you that the text is crap:
For example the sentence As most of the Polish government was initially controlled by Roman Dmowski, National Democratic leader and a strong proponent of Polonization,[47] policies based on his views were implemented is cited to page 314 of this work [2]. Do you see the claim that the Polish government was "controlled" (whatever that is supposed to mean) by Dmowski anywhere on that page? How about on the next page? No? Well, that's because it's not really true. The second part of the claim is that it was Dmowski's policies which were implemented. Any student of Polish history knows that this is false as well. And yes the source given [3] ALSO does not say this either.
So again, what I did was remove a lot of false claims which were misleadingly sourced to sources which did not say what the user was pretending they were saying. You've restored this claims, apparently because you think removal of false (and falsely sourced) info from Poland-related articles constitutes "hardcore Polish nationalism". I'm sorry, but that's a load of bollocks. Perhaps you should re-evaluate if you really have the competence and the sufficiently neutral mindset to involve yourself in Poland-related articles. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
The previous discussion, involving different users is above (or click here). Not sure if you can make out all of it since it degenerates very quickly. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Quite honestly, as I'm going through this article it's becoming obvious that it needs a tag which has yet to be created on Wikipedia. Something like: "This article lists sources and has inline citations, but almost everyone of them is lying and misrepresenting what is in the actual sources". Most of this article is a straight up hatchet job made to look legitimate by inclusion of inline citations which have almost nothing to do with the text of the article itself. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 05:15, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
This source: Herbert Arthur Strauss "Hostages of Modernization: Studies on Modern Antisemitism, 1870-1933/39", Walter de Gruyter, 1993, p. 1084. [4]. It doesn't even have 1084 pages. Only 644. And yes, it starts with page 1. Normally it'd chalk this up to a good faith mistake but given the total dishonesty in other parts of this article in regards to sourcing I'm a bit skeptical. Additionally there are apparently only two occurrences of the word "engineers" in this work (which is what the text in the article is talking about) and neither of them have anything what. so. ever. to do with the purported text. Removing. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 05:26, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Biggest Polonization of all, after WWII in former German territories, needs much more discussion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.2.105 ( talk • contribs) 20:52, November 26, 2014
Kulturkampf (1871 to 1878) didn't happen during early years. Xx234 ( talk) 11:15, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
NO! Xx236 ( talk) 08:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Pleae help! Xx236 ( talk) 08:16, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
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The section "Partitions (1795–1918)" contains contradictory claims. Some sentences assert that the Polonisation occurred despite maximally harsh anti-Polish policies, while others ascribe it to an initial period of local autonomy for Polish elites and lenient policy by the Russians. Both claims seem to be ascribed to the same sources and only comparison with the sources can establish what they really do say. The second claim makes sense; the first one sounds like fanatical Polish nationalist propaganda - the tacit suggestion apparently being that people just realised, deep down, the natural and objective superiority of Polishness over more lowly nationalities and couldn't resist its splendour, much as the pagans in the Roman Empire voluntarily became Christians in spite of the prospect of being martyred :). -- 178.249.169.67 ( talk) 23:00, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
For the claim that 'By 1927 Hramada (the Belarusian organisation for political resistance to Polonisation - my note) was controlled entirely by agents from Moscow.', the cited source is an article published by 'the Association of Poles in Belarus' with the vitriolic title 'The Bialostok minion of Stalin' (presumably referring to a leader of that movement). Surely it should be clear that the remaining Poles in Belarus have as obvious a motive as it gets to vilify the movement that led to their no longer having a dominant position in the country?-- 178.249.169.67 ( talk) 23:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Polonization article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
After reading the article and in particular the section on Belarus I noted a complete lack of neutrality and historical/geographical accuracy. I invite interested editors to have a closer look at the article and especially the segment about polonization of Western Belarus. References are also worth checking because I think they are misleading.-- Mamalala 05:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Relevant discussion at | → File talk:Subdue of Ruthenia in 1366.png#Cornerstone laying ceremony |
If I'm not mistaken, the original title of the
painting is "Powtórne zajęcie Rusi. Bogactwo i oświata". In the article it is rendered as "Ruthenia subdued". Wouldn't a more accurate translation be " The Re-occupation of Ruthenia. Wealth and education"? Dr. Dan ( talk) 16:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
There's a number of issues with the recently-added section on Belarus.
On a wider note, we could use some source to say that the grim situation of, say, Belarusian peasants near Hrodna was any different from the situation of, say, Polish peasants from around Kielce. Including police brutality and corruption among local officials and Army recruitment centres. // Halibu tt 10:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Another problematic section is the one on "Polish political terror". There's a number of disputable statements there (who the heck is this Valitzky S.? What "documents with Polish nationality" were there in pre-war Poland, as there was no such field in the contemporary passports or birth certificates and the military IDs listed only religion and not ethnicity), but more importantly there's a huge problem with the spirit of that part. It lists various facts from the history of Polish authorities' struggle against the Communist activists and suggests they were being persecuted not because they were Commies, but because they were Belarusians or Jews. Which is simply plainly wrong, Commie agents of Polish ethnicity were being put in prisons as well.
Let's seek some analogies. Are the Arab people in American prisons "Americanised" by the very fact that they are being held in American prisons? What about Irish people persecuted by the British authorities (for whatever reason, right or wrong, true or alleged)? Are they being "Anglicised" in British prisons because they are Irish, or perhaps because they were sentenced for their part in the IRA?
Simply put, it seems to me that this section could be moved to some other article and significantly expanded to show some perspective. History of Belarus? Communism in Poland? History of Polish police forces? // Halibu tt 11:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Answers:
Vlad, I don't tagwar, I simply want to improve the section you added so that it a) is readable, b) is well-sourced, c) represents more than your Belarusian POV. Assume good faith, will you?
Now, on to the issues you mentioned. As to Orthodox churches in Warsaw: no, I mean that it were the Russians themselves to demolish most Orthodox churches in Warsaw. Not Russian artillery or German artillery. The simple truth is that most Orthodox churches in Warsaw belonged to Russian garrisons. They were demolished by the retreating Russian troops already before 1915 (though some of them survived). Take for instance the Archangel Michael Archstrategist's Church at Al. Ujazdowskie street. It belonged to a Regiment of Guards stationed nearby, but once the regiment left Warsaw local Russian administration ordered the church to be stripped of any precious items - and it's tin roof was dismantled as well. As it was not replaced with anything the wooden structure started to rot and already in 1915 the new German authorities had to surround it with a fence so that nobody got hurt (as the church in 1915 was literally falling apart). The ruin was there for a couple more years until it was finally dismantled. Or Our Lady of Perpetual Help Church at Lindleya street. It was built as part of a huge hospital complex, as the hospital was being used by Russian garrison and needed a chapel. However, in 1915 the Russians managed to strip it of anything worth a penny and until early 1920s the building stood there empty. In the end it was decided to convert it to a Catholic church but in the end was demolished due to poor condition (yup, Catholic churches were being demolished as well). And another one, St. Olga's Church, in Łazienki Barracks, destroyed by the Russians already around 1906, the rebuilt and again abandoned. I guess most of your books would only mention the last part of the story ("bad Poles destroying precious churches"), but the truth is seldom as black and white. But this is OT here.
As to numbered issues (I hope you don't mind I will return to the numbered list, it's easier to keep track of what's been said).
And for the umpteenth time, please, let's settle the dispute here first, don't eliminate the tags from the main page just because it seems ok to you. Please. // Halibu tt 14:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
This is totally idiotic, it is obvious that Halibutt wants Vlad Fedorov to be victimized by forced Polonization that his, Halibutt, declares to be "good faith". -- 72.72.161.158 ( talk) 20:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
As there is apparently plenty of conflicting views on the scope of this article, what info should be included and how should it be presented, I took the liberty to ask for external review and comments from fellow Wikipedians. The basic conflict is around the sections on Belarus (see the section above for history of the conflict, as well as article's history), but all of this article could benefit from a peer review. // Halibu tt 21:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
I guess the primary problem in this case is putting the examples of policies of Polonization ( [1]) in list form and not in prose. That unnecessarily encourages making the items shorter. And shorter items are harder to make neutral and detailed. For example, the item "closure of Belarusian Orthodox churches" could be made more detailed and neutral by noting what happened to the buildings (Were they demolished? Were they abandoned? Or did they get a new owner? Maybe the fate of different buildings was not the same?), noting the reason that the Polish authorities gave (Did they claim it was done to help Polonization? For safety purposes? To undo the taking of Greek Catholic churches by Russian authorities?), and how did the Belarusians themselves see that. I hope other problems will be easier to solve after making the section more detailed. -- Martynas Patasius ( talk) 23:06, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Ghetto benches in polish universities were introduced in 1937 - two years after the dead of Józef Piłsudski. Accusing his regime for it is simple mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.25.146.82 ( talk) 12:14, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
There is a picture in the article with the following comment:
"Gravestone with removed German inscriptions in Gliwice (Southern Poland). Also visible is the changing of the name Karl into the Polish Karol."
The name on the grave is for 99% a name of Pole named Karol Okoń (okoń = perch). The most likely reason for putting germinized name in the first place on this grave was very common both in German and in Russian occupied partitions, forcing people to use new ruler's languages.
Giving as an example of polonisation the fact of wrining back in Polish name of Pole seems to be sarcastic(?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.167.78.239 ( talk) 12:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
You obviously did not even bother reading the talk page nor the reasons given, before you restored a whole slew of controversial and false-sourced edits made by a user who is currently (and deservedly) banned from the area of Eastern European topics. Even a cursory glance at the article history would have alerted you to the fact that the reason most of this was removed was simply because it's not in the sources given. The user in question added whatever text he fancied, then slapped on a inline citation of a source which didn't support the claim, to make it look legimtimate. Obviously this kind of dishonest editing - with a purpose of POV pushing (and here I mean *real* POV pushing, not what YOU accuse others of) - is obviously disruptive and does not belong in Wikipedia.
Since you're the one who insist on having this text added back in, the burden of proof is actually on YOU to show that the sources back up the claims made. But here, let me get you started, and just show you that the text is crap:
For example the sentence As most of the Polish government was initially controlled by Roman Dmowski, National Democratic leader and a strong proponent of Polonization,[47] policies based on his views were implemented is cited to page 314 of this work [2]. Do you see the claim that the Polish government was "controlled" (whatever that is supposed to mean) by Dmowski anywhere on that page? How about on the next page? No? Well, that's because it's not really true. The second part of the claim is that it was Dmowski's policies which were implemented. Any student of Polish history knows that this is false as well. And yes the source given [3] ALSO does not say this either.
So again, what I did was remove a lot of false claims which were misleadingly sourced to sources which did not say what the user was pretending they were saying. You've restored this claims, apparently because you think removal of false (and falsely sourced) info from Poland-related articles constitutes "hardcore Polish nationalism". I'm sorry, but that's a load of bollocks. Perhaps you should re-evaluate if you really have the competence and the sufficiently neutral mindset to involve yourself in Poland-related articles. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
The previous discussion, involving different users is above (or click here). Not sure if you can make out all of it since it degenerates very quickly. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Quite honestly, as I'm going through this article it's becoming obvious that it needs a tag which has yet to be created on Wikipedia. Something like: "This article lists sources and has inline citations, but almost everyone of them is lying and misrepresenting what is in the actual sources". Most of this article is a straight up hatchet job made to look legitimate by inclusion of inline citations which have almost nothing to do with the text of the article itself. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 05:15, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
This source: Herbert Arthur Strauss "Hostages of Modernization: Studies on Modern Antisemitism, 1870-1933/39", Walter de Gruyter, 1993, p. 1084. [4]. It doesn't even have 1084 pages. Only 644. And yes, it starts with page 1. Normally it'd chalk this up to a good faith mistake but given the total dishonesty in other parts of this article in regards to sourcing I'm a bit skeptical. Additionally there are apparently only two occurrences of the word "engineers" in this work (which is what the text in the article is talking about) and neither of them have anything what. so. ever. to do with the purported text. Removing. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 05:26, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Biggest Polonization of all, after WWII in former German territories, needs much more discussion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.2.105 ( talk • contribs) 20:52, November 26, 2014
Kulturkampf (1871 to 1878) didn't happen during early years. Xx234 ( talk) 11:15, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
NO! Xx236 ( talk) 08:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Pleae help! Xx236 ( talk) 08:16, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
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The section "Partitions (1795–1918)" contains contradictory claims. Some sentences assert that the Polonisation occurred despite maximally harsh anti-Polish policies, while others ascribe it to an initial period of local autonomy for Polish elites and lenient policy by the Russians. Both claims seem to be ascribed to the same sources and only comparison with the sources can establish what they really do say. The second claim makes sense; the first one sounds like fanatical Polish nationalist propaganda - the tacit suggestion apparently being that people just realised, deep down, the natural and objective superiority of Polishness over more lowly nationalities and couldn't resist its splendour, much as the pagans in the Roman Empire voluntarily became Christians in spite of the prospect of being martyred :). -- 178.249.169.67 ( talk) 23:00, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
For the claim that 'By 1927 Hramada (the Belarusian organisation for political resistance to Polonisation - my note) was controlled entirely by agents from Moscow.', the cited source is an article published by 'the Association of Poles in Belarus' with the vitriolic title 'The Bialostok minion of Stalin' (presumably referring to a leader of that movement). Surely it should be clear that the remaining Poles in Belarus have as obvious a motive as it gets to vilify the movement that led to their no longer having a dominant position in the country?-- 178.249.169.67 ( talk) 23:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)