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Reporting errors
RfC: Is it possible for alcohol intoxication to lead to alcoholism?
The consensus is against
this change since it is unsourced. There is no prejudice against discussing this again if a source is found to verify the assertion that alcoholism is a complication of alcohol intoxication.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have been involved in an edit war with @
Doc James: over the question of whether
alcoholism should be included as a complication of alcohol intoxication. My position is that our own article on Alcoholism provides sufficient language to justify the notion that alcohol intoxication leads to alcoholism: subsection
Alcoholism#Warning_signs states that "warning signs of alcoholism include... frequent intoxication," and subsection
Alcoholism#Definition states that "the drinking will increase as more intoxication is required." The other editor insists that listing alcoholism as a risk factor is sufficient, despite the fact that language published by Wikipedia makes clear that additional alcohol intoxication is just as much of a complication—in other words, my position is that alcohol intoxication is BOTH a risk factor for, AND complication of, alcoholism. I'm saying that we should, at the least, classify it as both.
Rowsdower45 (
talk) 05:12, 10 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Do you have a reference?
Current we list "alcohol intoxication" as a complication of alcoholism.
Does a single episode of intoxication lead to alcoholism? No.
I side with
User:Doc James on this. Unfortunately, I'm also an expert on alcoholism, as I'm in the 12 step fellowship and have been sober 30+ years. I was an alcoholic before I had my first drink, that is , I had the personality and the addictive mentality first.
Additionally
this diff is troubling as it appears as if you're looking to introduce Original research into the article. We do have to say what the source says.
Necromonger...We keep what we kill 14:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Congratulations on your sobriety.
I'm not sure that a scientific understanding of alcoholism supports the idea that someone can be an alcoholic even if the person never drinks any alcohol, since a distinction is usually drawn between someone being at risk for developing alcoholism and having already developed the disorder.
WhatamIdoing (
talk) 05:50, 25 December 2019 (UTC)reply
That's a tough one. I don't see sources describing it as a "complication," per se. I think this is just a case of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The template doesn't have a field of what I would say is the relationship between alcohol intoxication and alcoholism. I don't think it should go into "complications".
AlexEng(
TALK) 22:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)reply
No This claim should not be included within the article unless you have valid sources. It's a bit of a stretch to say intoxication leads to alcoholism. If anything its the other way around.
HAL333 22:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)reply
No. Not a complication. Alcohol intoxication is separate and apart from alcoholism and isn't caused by it nor vice versa. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 21:03, 22 December 2019 (UTC)reply
no a complication implies that alcoholism is an expected possible result of intoxication. That is a gross oversimplification of a complex problem. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Nightenbelle (
talk •
contribs)
It depends almost entirely on whether you're discussing acute intoxication or chronic intoxication.
If acute, then no. If chronic, then yes. The duration matters w.r.t. the answer because of how
this induction occurs. I'm assuming this discussion strictly pertains to acute intoxication based upon the replies though.
Seppi333 (
Insert 2¢) 05:26, 29 December 2019 (UTC)reply
alcohol intoxication is BOTH a risk factor for, AND complication of, alcoholism. You're not wrong,[1] and that's true for any addictive drug; you obviously can't become addicted to something to which you aren't exposed. But, dosage and timing are both relevant when you're talking about addiction risk. Chronic low-dose exposure to an addictive agent doesn't create an addiction risk, nor does an isolated high-dose exposure to one in spite of the reward-priming effects it might have. In contrast, even relatively infrequent high-dose exposure to an addictive substance creates a significant risk because ΔFosB persists in the human brain for months, increases in its expression are potentiated by positive feedback loops through
c-Fos and
H3K9me2, and increases in its expression progressively increase drug-seeking behavior to the point of compulsion. Hence why duration/frequency of exposure matters.
Anyway, there is a very obvious solution to this dispute: just state that regular or chronic intoxication entails a high addiction risk while acute intoxication does not (provided it's an isolated event).[1] There are plenty of sources[1] out there to cite[1] a statement like this[1] since it's true for literally any drug.[1] E.g., this one if it wasn't obvious.[1]Seppi333 (
Insert 2¢) 06:57, 29 December 2019 (UTC)reply
If you will allow a comment. The above question is futile in the sense that the arguments are alike to the "Which came first; the chicken or the egg?" question. That question actually has an answer, but one would not recognize it from the type of arguments used to debate it. In the chicken/egg case, in point of fact, they co-evolved so there never was a first chicken egg. At some point in the past there were proto-chickens laying proto-chicken eggs, which gradually turned into chickens and chicken eggs, or, to put it another way, at some point in the past, and although we can only do this as a thought experiment, proto-chicken mating with modern rooster would be sterile, which probably occurred at a different past epoch than infertility of mating proto-rooster with modern chicken. What is the point here? One cannot perform a substance dependency test using a proto-alcoholic who has never ever consumed alcohol, without taking that first drink (or first inhalation). It is an important step to maintaining sobriety for someone to say, "I am an alcoholic," and to pointedly omit saying "but I am on the wagon." What this implies is that alcoholism means different things to different people, such that for some there is a need to differentiate between current and past substance dependence, and for others there is a need to not distinguish between them. In point of fact, one cannot travel down that road without alcohol having been consumed at some point in time and like the chicken and egg problem, one cannot have a history of chronic substance abuse without both the substance and the abuser, and one needs both the substance and someone to abuse it to have substance abuse, whenever that occurred.
CarlWesolowski (
talk) 04:08, 7 January 2020 (UTC)reply
Reflist
References
^
abcdefgNestler EJ (December 2013).
"Cellular basis of memory for addiction". Dialogues in Clinical Neuroscience. 15 (4): 431–443.
PMC3898681.
PMID24459410. Despite the importance of numerous psychosocial factors, at its core, drug addiction involves a biological process: the ability of repeated exposure to a drug of abuse to induce changes in a vulnerable brain that drive the compulsive seeking and taking of drugs, and loss of control over drug use, that define a state of addiction. ... Drug addiction, which can be defined as the compulsive seeking and taking of drugs despite horrendous consequences or loss of control over drug use, is caused by long-lasting drug-induced changes that occur in certain brain regions.1 Only some individuals, however, succumb to addiction in the face of repeated drug exposure, while others are capable of using a drug casually and escaping an addiction syndrome. Genetic factors account for roughly 50% of this individual variability in addiction vulnerability, and this degree of heritability holds true for all major classes of addictive drugs, including stimulants, opiates, alcohol, nicotine, and cannabinoids.2 ... The other 50% of the risk for addiction is due to a host of environmental factors, occurring throughout a lifetime, that interact with an individual's genetic composition to render him or her vulnerable to addiction to a greater or lesser extent. Several types of environmental factors have been implicated in addiction, including psychosocial stresses, but by far the most powerful factor is exposure to a drug of abuse itself. ... Moreover, there is increasing evidence that, despite a range of genetic risks for addiction across the population, exposure to sufficiently high doses of a drug for long periods of time can transform someone who has relatively lower genetic loading into an addict. ... A large body of literature has demonstrated that such ΔFosB induction in D1-type [nucleus accumbens] neurons increases an animal's sensitivity to drug as well as natural rewards and promotes drug self-administration, presumably through a process of positive reinforcement ... Another ΔFosB target is cFos: as ΔFosB accumulates with repeated drug exposure it represses c-Fos and contributes to the molecular switch whereby ΔFosB is selectively induced in the chronic drug-treated state.41
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Pathophysiology
The list of alcohol levels are all out by a factor of 10. 5 lots of 8 grams divided by 5 litres of blood is 8 grams per litre, 0.8 g/dL, or 800 mg/dL. The confusion arises because the reference 22 ("Alcohol & Public Health: Fact Sheets - Binge Drinking") uses the unit "grams percent" - this can only be grams per centilitre. This is the first time I've tried contributing to a Wikipedia page and don't want to do the live editing since I might foul it up - so can someone else do the actual edit. Thanks. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
ExtremePedant (
talk •
contribs) 09:00, 16 January 2020 (UTC)reply
After further research I've discovered that the blood alcohol levels are correct. The calculation takes complete body fluids into account. This means that "grams percent" makes even less sense than I thought. No edits need to be made to the main page. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
ExtremePedant (
talk •
contribs) 05:47, 20 January 2020 (UTC)reply
Hyperlinks to this article
There is an active RfC underway on the Whisky talk page as to whether the article will include links to the Alcohol Intoxication wikipedia article, and similar articles
Specifically:
Should the whisky article provide direct links to articles about the effects of ethanol on those who consume whisky?
Here is a proposed sentence with hyperlinks:
Some effects of whisky consumption are due to its alcohol content. See:
Alcohol intoxication,
Short-term effects of alcohol consumption,
Long-term effects of alcohol, and
Alcohol and health.
sbelknap (
talk) 21:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Need writer‘s (or anyone who's familiar with this article) elaboration in the part of ===Religious views===
"Islamic schools of law (Madh'hab) have interpreted this as a strict prohibition of the consumption of all types of alcohol and declared it to be haraam ("forbidden"), although other uses may be permitted.[67]" I'm not sure I understand the wordings in bold type (especially other uses), can anybody help elaborate? Thanks. I'm now translating this article into Traditional Chinese.
ThomasYehYeh (
talk) 11:21, 15 August 2021 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Addictions and recovery, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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deleted by a user before.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors
RfC: Is it possible for alcohol intoxication to lead to alcoholism?
The consensus is against
this change since it is unsourced. There is no prejudice against discussing this again if a source is found to verify the assertion that alcoholism is a complication of alcohol intoxication.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have been involved in an edit war with @
Doc James: over the question of whether
alcoholism should be included as a complication of alcohol intoxication. My position is that our own article on Alcoholism provides sufficient language to justify the notion that alcohol intoxication leads to alcoholism: subsection
Alcoholism#Warning_signs states that "warning signs of alcoholism include... frequent intoxication," and subsection
Alcoholism#Definition states that "the drinking will increase as more intoxication is required." The other editor insists that listing alcoholism as a risk factor is sufficient, despite the fact that language published by Wikipedia makes clear that additional alcohol intoxication is just as much of a complication—in other words, my position is that alcohol intoxication is BOTH a risk factor for, AND complication of, alcoholism. I'm saying that we should, at the least, classify it as both.
Rowsdower45 (
talk) 05:12, 10 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Do you have a reference?
Current we list "alcohol intoxication" as a complication of alcoholism.
Does a single episode of intoxication lead to alcoholism? No.
I side with
User:Doc James on this. Unfortunately, I'm also an expert on alcoholism, as I'm in the 12 step fellowship and have been sober 30+ years. I was an alcoholic before I had my first drink, that is , I had the personality and the addictive mentality first.
Additionally
this diff is troubling as it appears as if you're looking to introduce Original research into the article. We do have to say what the source says.
Necromonger...We keep what we kill 14:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Congratulations on your sobriety.
I'm not sure that a scientific understanding of alcoholism supports the idea that someone can be an alcoholic even if the person never drinks any alcohol, since a distinction is usually drawn between someone being at risk for developing alcoholism and having already developed the disorder.
WhatamIdoing (
talk) 05:50, 25 December 2019 (UTC)reply
That's a tough one. I don't see sources describing it as a "complication," per se. I think this is just a case of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The template doesn't have a field of what I would say is the relationship between alcohol intoxication and alcoholism. I don't think it should go into "complications".
AlexEng(
TALK) 22:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)reply
No This claim should not be included within the article unless you have valid sources. It's a bit of a stretch to say intoxication leads to alcoholism. If anything its the other way around.
HAL333 22:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)reply
No. Not a complication. Alcohol intoxication is separate and apart from alcoholism and isn't caused by it nor vice versa. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 21:03, 22 December 2019 (UTC)reply
no a complication implies that alcoholism is an expected possible result of intoxication. That is a gross oversimplification of a complex problem. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Nightenbelle (
talk •
contribs)
It depends almost entirely on whether you're discussing acute intoxication or chronic intoxication.
If acute, then no. If chronic, then yes. The duration matters w.r.t. the answer because of how
this induction occurs. I'm assuming this discussion strictly pertains to acute intoxication based upon the replies though.
Seppi333 (
Insert 2¢) 05:26, 29 December 2019 (UTC)reply
alcohol intoxication is BOTH a risk factor for, AND complication of, alcoholism. You're not wrong,[1] and that's true for any addictive drug; you obviously can't become addicted to something to which you aren't exposed. But, dosage and timing are both relevant when you're talking about addiction risk. Chronic low-dose exposure to an addictive agent doesn't create an addiction risk, nor does an isolated high-dose exposure to one in spite of the reward-priming effects it might have. In contrast, even relatively infrequent high-dose exposure to an addictive substance creates a significant risk because ΔFosB persists in the human brain for months, increases in its expression are potentiated by positive feedback loops through
c-Fos and
H3K9me2, and increases in its expression progressively increase drug-seeking behavior to the point of compulsion. Hence why duration/frequency of exposure matters.
Anyway, there is a very obvious solution to this dispute: just state that regular or chronic intoxication entails a high addiction risk while acute intoxication does not (provided it's an isolated event).[1] There are plenty of sources[1] out there to cite[1] a statement like this[1] since it's true for literally any drug.[1] E.g., this one if it wasn't obvious.[1]Seppi333 (
Insert 2¢) 06:57, 29 December 2019 (UTC)reply
If you will allow a comment. The above question is futile in the sense that the arguments are alike to the "Which came first; the chicken or the egg?" question. That question actually has an answer, but one would not recognize it from the type of arguments used to debate it. In the chicken/egg case, in point of fact, they co-evolved so there never was a first chicken egg. At some point in the past there were proto-chickens laying proto-chicken eggs, which gradually turned into chickens and chicken eggs, or, to put it another way, at some point in the past, and although we can only do this as a thought experiment, proto-chicken mating with modern rooster would be sterile, which probably occurred at a different past epoch than infertility of mating proto-rooster with modern chicken. What is the point here? One cannot perform a substance dependency test using a proto-alcoholic who has never ever consumed alcohol, without taking that first drink (or first inhalation). It is an important step to maintaining sobriety for someone to say, "I am an alcoholic," and to pointedly omit saying "but I am on the wagon." What this implies is that alcoholism means different things to different people, such that for some there is a need to differentiate between current and past substance dependence, and for others there is a need to not distinguish between them. In point of fact, one cannot travel down that road without alcohol having been consumed at some point in time and like the chicken and egg problem, one cannot have a history of chronic substance abuse without both the substance and the abuser, and one needs both the substance and someone to abuse it to have substance abuse, whenever that occurred.
CarlWesolowski (
talk) 04:08, 7 January 2020 (UTC)reply
Reflist
References
^
abcdefgNestler EJ (December 2013).
"Cellular basis of memory for addiction". Dialogues in Clinical Neuroscience. 15 (4): 431–443.
PMC3898681.
PMID24459410. Despite the importance of numerous psychosocial factors, at its core, drug addiction involves a biological process: the ability of repeated exposure to a drug of abuse to induce changes in a vulnerable brain that drive the compulsive seeking and taking of drugs, and loss of control over drug use, that define a state of addiction. ... Drug addiction, which can be defined as the compulsive seeking and taking of drugs despite horrendous consequences or loss of control over drug use, is caused by long-lasting drug-induced changes that occur in certain brain regions.1 Only some individuals, however, succumb to addiction in the face of repeated drug exposure, while others are capable of using a drug casually and escaping an addiction syndrome. Genetic factors account for roughly 50% of this individual variability in addiction vulnerability, and this degree of heritability holds true for all major classes of addictive drugs, including stimulants, opiates, alcohol, nicotine, and cannabinoids.2 ... The other 50% of the risk for addiction is due to a host of environmental factors, occurring throughout a lifetime, that interact with an individual's genetic composition to render him or her vulnerable to addiction to a greater or lesser extent. Several types of environmental factors have been implicated in addiction, including psychosocial stresses, but by far the most powerful factor is exposure to a drug of abuse itself. ... Moreover, there is increasing evidence that, despite a range of genetic risks for addiction across the population, exposure to sufficiently high doses of a drug for long periods of time can transform someone who has relatively lower genetic loading into an addict. ... A large body of literature has demonstrated that such ΔFosB induction in D1-type [nucleus accumbens] neurons increases an animal's sensitivity to drug as well as natural rewards and promotes drug self-administration, presumably through a process of positive reinforcement ... Another ΔFosB target is cFos: as ΔFosB accumulates with repeated drug exposure it represses c-Fos and contributes to the molecular switch whereby ΔFosB is selectively induced in the chronic drug-treated state.41
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Pathophysiology
The list of alcohol levels are all out by a factor of 10. 5 lots of 8 grams divided by 5 litres of blood is 8 grams per litre, 0.8 g/dL, or 800 mg/dL. The confusion arises because the reference 22 ("Alcohol & Public Health: Fact Sheets - Binge Drinking") uses the unit "grams percent" - this can only be grams per centilitre. This is the first time I've tried contributing to a Wikipedia page and don't want to do the live editing since I might foul it up - so can someone else do the actual edit. Thanks. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
ExtremePedant (
talk •
contribs) 09:00, 16 January 2020 (UTC)reply
After further research I've discovered that the blood alcohol levels are correct. The calculation takes complete body fluids into account. This means that "grams percent" makes even less sense than I thought. No edits need to be made to the main page. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
ExtremePedant (
talk •
contribs) 05:47, 20 January 2020 (UTC)reply
Hyperlinks to this article
There is an active RfC underway on the Whisky talk page as to whether the article will include links to the Alcohol Intoxication wikipedia article, and similar articles
Specifically:
Should the whisky article provide direct links to articles about the effects of ethanol on those who consume whisky?
Here is a proposed sentence with hyperlinks:
Some effects of whisky consumption are due to its alcohol content. See:
Alcohol intoxication,
Short-term effects of alcohol consumption,
Long-term effects of alcohol, and
Alcohol and health.
sbelknap (
talk) 21:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Need writer‘s (or anyone who's familiar with this article) elaboration in the part of ===Religious views===
"Islamic schools of law (Madh'hab) have interpreted this as a strict prohibition of the consumption of all types of alcohol and declared it to be haraam ("forbidden"), although other uses may be permitted.[67]" I'm not sure I understand the wordings in bold type (especially other uses), can anybody help elaborate? Thanks. I'm now translating this article into Traditional Chinese.
ThomasYehYeh (
talk) 11:21, 15 August 2021 (UTC)reply