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I think there should be a discussion of this movies transphobia. Lois Einhorn is a trans woman who is brutally sexually assaulted by Ace, and there is no mention of that in the article. This is not true at all. If your simple mind understood the movie you would realize that Ray Finkle dresses up like a woman to get revenge on Dan Marino. He is not Trans!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.65.70.36 ( talk) 05:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
This is why wikipedia is so shitty. This right here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.138.213.196 ( talk) 06:43, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
A couple of points about the section as it currently stands (a) I think the section title should be Transgender representation downplaying the transphobia, because as the sources point out, the film was a product of its time and Transgender representation is a more neutral term. (b) the first sentence of the section doesn't mention the film making the whole section seem to come from left field, this needs to be tweaked / rearranged. Stuartyeates ( talk) 21:21, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
i think this is a fringe issue and ultimately unimportant to 99% of wikipedia users — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.98.102.138 ( talk • contribs) 00:39, January 27, 2019 (UTC)
Actually Finkle engages in rape by fraud in the movie, so he is the one who sexually assaulted people not the other way around. And obviously someone getting breast implants does not necessarily indicate any kind of trans status. He still has testicles, was never diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and was never granted a legal sex change by the government. You might be unaware of this but many schizophrenic people attempt to have trans treatments done to them. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10226303
— — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.136.200 ( talk • contribs) 09:58, January 6, 2015 (UTC)
I think this answer was perfect and the transmisogynist stuff that came ahead is nonsensical. I've scrubbed that off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.21.91.10 ( talk • contribs) 21:42, January 5, 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't your fringe repository / place to display your political agenda. That information is not objective or encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.255.183 ( talk) 10:33, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
There's no difference between three or five biased unencyclopedic sources. The section is not encyclopedycal, it's WP:FRINGE and it's totally biased on some personal political agenda of few people. Transphobia is a real issue, but this movie doesn't potray it at all. Stop bringing your political agenda to wikipedia, this has to stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.64.164.96 ( talk) 15:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Someone persists in trying to remove the "Transgender portrayal" section. Pinging those last involved in the discussion about it: Stuartyeates, Kleuske, KNHaw, Ghostsax. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 11:40, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm in favor of deleting the section entirely as it represents a blatantly WP:FRINGE viewpoint. The first clue is that all three cited sources deal specifically with transgenderism; there's absolutely nothing from film critics (or the mainstream media in general, apart from the New York Times op). Nor is there any response from the film's creators to suggest that they take these assertions seriously or have even noticed them. Second, even these sources seem to mention the film only in passing, and do not identify it as exceptional in its portrayal of transgenderism.
Moreover, even such trivial mentions of Ace Ventura in the context of transgenderism represent a gross misrepresentation of the film's plot, because the film does not portray transgenderism at all. The film is explicit that Ray Finkle was changing identities to avoid detection, only switching genders incidentally. This is such a fundamental plot point that the only way one could overlook it is if one lacked basic comprehension skills - or more likely, were simply scouting for fodder for the current outrage fad.-- Martin IIIa ( talk) 15:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
I've expanded the article further. It now includes the Los Angeles Times reporting that critics at the time considering it homophobic (as well as "mean-spirited" and "needlessly raunchy"). It also includes that Carrey sought such a provocative scene. Furthermore, this matter appears to have been discussed as early as 2007 with the book Into the Closet: Cross-Dressing and the Gendered Body in Children's Literature and Film, preceding the above claim of being related to "the current outrage fad". Furthermore, the section is not the extent of sources available writing about this scene, but we do not need to include any more text. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 16:29, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
0.6% of the population really don't warrant a paragraph half the size of the plot in a general knowledge encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.98.102.138 ( talk) 00:44, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
As pointed out, there is no trans portrayal in the movie. Simply a deranged ex-NFL man attempting to hide identities to get revenge. Nothing suggests a transgender character, except for the mental illness the character was committed form PatentlyObtuse ( talk) 09:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I am unsure it needs quite this much attention, a paragraph in the body. Not its own section, as per
wp:undue.
Slatersteven (
talk) 16:35, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
References to use. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 19:38, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Trans portrayal is covered in the book Navigating Trans and Complex Gender Identities. Screenshot of the relevant passage is here (page 88). Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 17:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
A few news articles have covered Joe Rogan bringing up the transphobic issues in this film, like this and this. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 17:26, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Permanent links for referencing:
Thanks, Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 20:56, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
The article has had "Transgender portrayal" as the section heading for a long time now, and IP editor 92.10.13.209 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) believes that it should be "Criticisms of transphobia" instead. I do not think this complies with WP:STRUCTURE. What do other editors think? Do we need to request a Wikipedia:Third opinion? Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 17:41, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
For more in why I think WP:STRUCTURE applies, see the essay Wikipedia:Criticism#"Criticism" section. I think "Transgender portrayal" is, per WP:STRUCTURE, a "broadly neutral" presentation. If Jim Carrey or the filmmakers were to respond to the commentary or do some kind of defending on comedy grounds, then that section heading would be even more appropriate since "Criticisms" would be too narrowly focused. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 17:51, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ace Ventura: Pet Detective article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I think there should be a discussion of this movies transphobia. Lois Einhorn is a trans woman who is brutally sexually assaulted by Ace, and there is no mention of that in the article. This is not true at all. If your simple mind understood the movie you would realize that Ray Finkle dresses up like a woman to get revenge on Dan Marino. He is not Trans!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.65.70.36 ( talk) 05:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
This is why wikipedia is so shitty. This right here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.138.213.196 ( talk) 06:43, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
A couple of points about the section as it currently stands (a) I think the section title should be Transgender representation downplaying the transphobia, because as the sources point out, the film was a product of its time and Transgender representation is a more neutral term. (b) the first sentence of the section doesn't mention the film making the whole section seem to come from left field, this needs to be tweaked / rearranged. Stuartyeates ( talk) 21:21, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
i think this is a fringe issue and ultimately unimportant to 99% of wikipedia users — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.98.102.138 ( talk • contribs) 00:39, January 27, 2019 (UTC)
Actually Finkle engages in rape by fraud in the movie, so he is the one who sexually assaulted people not the other way around. And obviously someone getting breast implants does not necessarily indicate any kind of trans status. He still has testicles, was never diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and was never granted a legal sex change by the government. You might be unaware of this but many schizophrenic people attempt to have trans treatments done to them. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10226303
— — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.136.200 ( talk • contribs) 09:58, January 6, 2015 (UTC)
I think this answer was perfect and the transmisogynist stuff that came ahead is nonsensical. I've scrubbed that off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.21.91.10 ( talk • contribs) 21:42, January 5, 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't your fringe repository / place to display your political agenda. That information is not objective or encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.255.183 ( talk) 10:33, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
There's no difference between three or five biased unencyclopedic sources. The section is not encyclopedycal, it's WP:FRINGE and it's totally biased on some personal political agenda of few people. Transphobia is a real issue, but this movie doesn't potray it at all. Stop bringing your political agenda to wikipedia, this has to stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.64.164.96 ( talk) 15:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Someone persists in trying to remove the "Transgender portrayal" section. Pinging those last involved in the discussion about it: Stuartyeates, Kleuske, KNHaw, Ghostsax. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 11:40, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm in favor of deleting the section entirely as it represents a blatantly WP:FRINGE viewpoint. The first clue is that all three cited sources deal specifically with transgenderism; there's absolutely nothing from film critics (or the mainstream media in general, apart from the New York Times op). Nor is there any response from the film's creators to suggest that they take these assertions seriously or have even noticed them. Second, even these sources seem to mention the film only in passing, and do not identify it as exceptional in its portrayal of transgenderism.
Moreover, even such trivial mentions of Ace Ventura in the context of transgenderism represent a gross misrepresentation of the film's plot, because the film does not portray transgenderism at all. The film is explicit that Ray Finkle was changing identities to avoid detection, only switching genders incidentally. This is such a fundamental plot point that the only way one could overlook it is if one lacked basic comprehension skills - or more likely, were simply scouting for fodder for the current outrage fad.-- Martin IIIa ( talk) 15:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
I've expanded the article further. It now includes the Los Angeles Times reporting that critics at the time considering it homophobic (as well as "mean-spirited" and "needlessly raunchy"). It also includes that Carrey sought such a provocative scene. Furthermore, this matter appears to have been discussed as early as 2007 with the book Into the Closet: Cross-Dressing and the Gendered Body in Children's Literature and Film, preceding the above claim of being related to "the current outrage fad". Furthermore, the section is not the extent of sources available writing about this scene, but we do not need to include any more text. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 16:29, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
0.6% of the population really don't warrant a paragraph half the size of the plot in a general knowledge encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.98.102.138 ( talk) 00:44, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
As pointed out, there is no trans portrayal in the movie. Simply a deranged ex-NFL man attempting to hide identities to get revenge. Nothing suggests a transgender character, except for the mental illness the character was committed form PatentlyObtuse ( talk) 09:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I am unsure it needs quite this much attention, a paragraph in the body. Not its own section, as per
wp:undue.
Slatersteven (
talk) 16:35, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
References to use. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 19:38, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Trans portrayal is covered in the book Navigating Trans and Complex Gender Identities. Screenshot of the relevant passage is here (page 88). Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 17:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
A few news articles have covered Joe Rogan bringing up the transphobic issues in this film, like this and this. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 17:26, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Permanent links for referencing:
Thanks, Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 20:56, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
The article has had "Transgender portrayal" as the section heading for a long time now, and IP editor 92.10.13.209 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) believes that it should be "Criticisms of transphobia" instead. I do not think this complies with WP:STRUCTURE. What do other editors think? Do we need to request a Wikipedia:Third opinion? Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 17:41, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
For more in why I think WP:STRUCTURE applies, see the essay Wikipedia:Criticism#"Criticism" section. I think "Transgender portrayal" is, per WP:STRUCTURE, a "broadly neutral" presentation. If Jim Carrey or the filmmakers were to respond to the commentary or do some kind of defending on comedy grounds, then that section heading would be even more appropriate since "Criticisms" would be too narrowly focused. Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 17:51, 16 June 2022 (UTC)