This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 245 | ← | Archive 248 | Archive 249 | Archive 250 | Archive 251 | Archive 252 | → | Archive 255 |
Just looking at TheSandDoctor's RfA with utter dismay at some of the opposition there. It's honestly terrible that some actually think a year and a half and 20,000 edits isn't good enough, and it's the same people who tell the candidate they haven't got enough AfD experience then oppose them for !voting at AfD at the wrong time?! There are a lot of unfounded, nasty accusations of 'gaming the system' which people should be ashamed of writing. I joined back in 2009, which was hardly RfA's heyday, but other than pure trolling I'm certain I'd never imagine it to be this bad. Basically, it seems you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, unless you're one of the very lucky handful who are now promoted each year. (With apologies to TheSandDoctor, who I am using as an example, and who I have never personally encountered previously). Aiken D 22:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
(to no one in particular) RfA is not a monolithic entity. In any community driven situation like Wikipedia, you're never going to be able to please all the people all the time. That is the inevitable situation. You can't fix it. Some people like sushi, and some people think it's disgusting. Neither is wrong or right. That doesn't stop restaurants from making sushi. A lot of people have criteria for adminship. Probably >95% (>99%?) of those criteria are purely subjective, and have no basis in research tying them to patterns observed in this set of former administrators. Nevertheless, those criteria are neither wrong nor right. RfA is a community driven process, and therefore driven by opinion. Therefore, there will always be people whose criteria we find absurd. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 13:16, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
You say this in the middle of an RfA with 90% support that is clearly going to pass. The system works for the most part and most qualified candidates will pass. Also to the point made above: existing admins in my experience are much more likely to support a candidate. TonyBallioni ( talk) 18:11, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
I keep seeing unsubstantiated claims that adminship has changed “vastly” in the past decade. How accurate is this, exactly, and how do these “vast” changes equate to what some believe to be a whole extra year or more of “experience” needed in order to qualify for the job? It would be interesting to hear from admins who were promoted in 2008 or earlier. Aiken D 15:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC) Just to be clear, I’m wondering how the day to day job of being an adminship has changed - is it vastly more difficult, has your approach needed to change over the past decade? If so, how and why? If not, why the absurdly high standards? Aiken D 15:52, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The responses seem based on how RFA has changed, but I see that's not the question. The question is how has "being an admin" changed. To look at that we need to look at the core things admins do that non admins can't. Mainly that's block / protect / delete (and a few other bits like user rights). So the question then is has WP changed in the way the admin tools should be used in 10 years? Well, obviously community views change in terms of what fits into a specific CSD tag, or whether a 24 hour or week block is "what's right" - but fundamentally admins stop damage and remove non encyclopedic crud. That hasn't changed. This then leads us back to "do we trust an individual to use the tools wisely"; exactly why I wrote WP:NETPOS 10 (arggghhh! 10!!!) years ago. It's still as relevant an essay today as it was then - because what admins do fundamentally hasn't changed. Just my 2p Pedro : Chat 14:28, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If the RfA is not the first one of the candidate, I think a bot should ask a question. Something like "4. Your first RFA, back in YYYY, was unsuccessful. What have you learned since then to demonstrate that you are qualified for adminship now?" Or "How have you changed since then?" Or something similar to that. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:17, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Support bot suffrage. Beep Boop.
🤖 19:23, 30 June 2018 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Do we need an RFC on whether RFA oppose votes without any rationale are permitted? This apparently is a very heated issue that may need a cold and boring RFC to resolve. As several people have noted, in cases where there is non-trivial opposition, it's trivial to say "per XYZ" in an oppose vote. If a rule only matters for non-controversial cases, it may not be worth having a rule.
Also, if we do establish a rule that a reason is strictly required for oppose votes, we may also need some rules on what reasons are not allowed. An oppose vote explicitly based on race or gender would probably get someone sanctioned now, but should "protest votes" be allowed? Would "Bot operators shouldn't be admins" be allowed? Historically, opposes based on "too inclusionist"/"too deletionist" have been accepted, though perhaps discounted by bureaucrats in the discretionary zone. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 00:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
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SQL, your support seems predicated on dismissing the issues raised by opposers without actually addressing them, then declaring "Adminship should be no big deal." We should also have world peace, an end to hunger, and a cure for cancer. Adminship not being a big deal is the same kind of idealized wish-making (even if perhaps a goal to inch toward). Adminship has very definitely been a big deal for about the last decade, maybe more like 12 years. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is, and the community made it that way. I think this is an organizational lifecycle matter. WP transitioned from a wild-and-wooly, early-adopters, visionary experiment phase into a global institution rather quickly, and that necessarily meant internal governance shifts which can't really be undone without starting from scratch (the way various failing companies sometimes do successfully). WP isn't failing, so there's not much incentive to go there. Despite various Chicken Little cries, the admin pool is actually stable and getting the important behind-the-scenes work done, so we are not in a position of having to approve iffy candidates (iffy because of temperament/competence or, as in this case, because of focus/rationale misalignment). There might be a way to make adminship less of a big deal, but it's going to take a lot of work and lot of community buy-in, which so far has not happened, despite some clear ways of getting there, like unbundling more of the less dangerous tools to increase the pool of competent "quasi-admins"; have adminship term limits and reconfirmation, instead of for-life, all-or-nothing appointments; and various other approaches we all know are likely to be effective but which too few people will outright support due to sheer terror that any change to the adminship system will cause a trainwreck. Maybe that is a discussion to have at
WT:ADMIN, but I felt compelled to comment here because "opposers are wrong because I disagree" posturing isn't a real rationale, and "adminship should be no big deal" isn't a valid one today, either. PS: In fairness, Laser_brain also trotted out the "no big deal" canard. I agree with L_b's other sentiment, about broadening the admin pool to all competent editors, but this is another of the adminship reform ideas that's been proposed again and again only to be shot down by the community (and to an extent by WMF itself; they claim there's a legal reason that everyone can't just be made an admin automatically after some tenure as a constructive and non-disruptive editor). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:10, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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I think the bulk of this thread is more relevant for WT:RFA than the original page it was posted on. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I was surprised to see this page "red linked". I can imagine several reasons for turning it blue. Tell me why I am wrong about this, or perhaps right?-- John Cline ( talk) 09:41, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I have started a discussion about the new interface administrator user group at WP:VPM#RFC: Interface administrators and transition. Please take a moment to review and/or comment. -- Izno ( talk) 14:50, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Not so long ago, there was an RfA. The candidate was an SPI clerk, and yet one vote said "concerned about his lack of activity in SPI". Could somebody please tell me which RfA was it? —usernamekiran (talk) 15:58, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
The subject of temporary adminship came up at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Pbsouthwood. Posting here because it is a broiader issue and discussuon is likely to wander off-topic to that nomination. A couple of editors opined that this would be a worthwhile thing to do. I know it was discussed in the past with reference to non-admins being elected to ArbCom. Aparently, it has been done for WMF staff? I don't see any real obstacles to it. WP:Administrators says Administrators may request that their access to administrative tools be removed at Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard. There is nothing that says that removal it cannot be requesated in advance. Anyone have any thoughts? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
I disagree that you can't demonstrate competence, as for the most part the tools are fairly straightforward and operate like everything else around here. What you need to demonstrate is judgment, and there are dozens of places where participating does just that. More importantly, I'm not sold that such a process would be sufficient to satisfy the WMF as regards viewing deleted content. Although admittedly it does seem more involved than many of our sister projects' systems. ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 10:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
RFA-identical processis required for viewdeleted, the "process" part is that there is an open community consensus building exercise to vet the editor and ensure they have the support of the community. The "result" of the process does not need to be the same (that is, it could result in an admin that is time or function limited, or subject to community managed removal processes). — xaosflux Talk 14:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Personally I advocate for the RfA shift that would invalidate arguments purely based on certain grounds if a sufficient (consensus-agreed) quality level was made (number of edits, article edits, AfD !votes etc) so that those oppose arguments that were given would pick up on the most serious grounds so long as an experienced applicant was involved. That apparently, though, was rejected, though I don't know how much by. Nosebagbear ( talk) 15:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Without pointing fingers or citing specific examples, I will try to outline the problems I have seen with some oppose votes on recent RFAs that seem to serve no legitimate purpose with respect to the actual process of promoting (or not promoting) users to adminship. But first I will note that most oppose votes appear to be good faith and constructive criticism, and I am not going to criticize such votes, as I think they are very important to the RFA process. It appears that those oppose votes that are bad faith serve to start a cycle that goes roughly as follows:
This process wastes a lot of people's time and energy, and it seems clear that it should not be allowed to keep happening. Something must be done about unnecessarily provocative RFA opposes based on bogus reasons, and that something should include a broad reform of the RFA voting process. I suspect that making voting anonymous rather than in a publicly visible place (like an RFA page) would help. IntoThinAir (formerly Everymorning) talk 01:31, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
it seems clear that it should not be allowed to keep happening", I don't particularly agree. As others have mentioned above, this really isn't a big problem. It doesn't affect the outcome of RFAs, most people ignore it anyway, and for those who do choose to engage in the debate, well good luck to them, they probably did so because they wanted to. Freedom of speech at RFA is something we cherish, and I would fear that any solution to address this minor issue would risk throwing the baby out with the bath water and possibly inhibiting other more genuine expressions of editor opinion. — Amakuru ( talk) 12:43, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 245 | ← | Archive 248 | Archive 249 | Archive 250 | Archive 251 | Archive 252 | → | Archive 255 |
Just looking at TheSandDoctor's RfA with utter dismay at some of the opposition there. It's honestly terrible that some actually think a year and a half and 20,000 edits isn't good enough, and it's the same people who tell the candidate they haven't got enough AfD experience then oppose them for !voting at AfD at the wrong time?! There are a lot of unfounded, nasty accusations of 'gaming the system' which people should be ashamed of writing. I joined back in 2009, which was hardly RfA's heyday, but other than pure trolling I'm certain I'd never imagine it to be this bad. Basically, it seems you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, unless you're one of the very lucky handful who are now promoted each year. (With apologies to TheSandDoctor, who I am using as an example, and who I have never personally encountered previously). Aiken D 22:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
(to no one in particular) RfA is not a monolithic entity. In any community driven situation like Wikipedia, you're never going to be able to please all the people all the time. That is the inevitable situation. You can't fix it. Some people like sushi, and some people think it's disgusting. Neither is wrong or right. That doesn't stop restaurants from making sushi. A lot of people have criteria for adminship. Probably >95% (>99%?) of those criteria are purely subjective, and have no basis in research tying them to patterns observed in this set of former administrators. Nevertheless, those criteria are neither wrong nor right. RfA is a community driven process, and therefore driven by opinion. Therefore, there will always be people whose criteria we find absurd. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 13:16, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
You say this in the middle of an RfA with 90% support that is clearly going to pass. The system works for the most part and most qualified candidates will pass. Also to the point made above: existing admins in my experience are much more likely to support a candidate. TonyBallioni ( talk) 18:11, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
I keep seeing unsubstantiated claims that adminship has changed “vastly” in the past decade. How accurate is this, exactly, and how do these “vast” changes equate to what some believe to be a whole extra year or more of “experience” needed in order to qualify for the job? It would be interesting to hear from admins who were promoted in 2008 or earlier. Aiken D 15:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC) Just to be clear, I’m wondering how the day to day job of being an adminship has changed - is it vastly more difficult, has your approach needed to change over the past decade? If so, how and why? If not, why the absurdly high standards? Aiken D 15:52, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The responses seem based on how RFA has changed, but I see that's not the question. The question is how has "being an admin" changed. To look at that we need to look at the core things admins do that non admins can't. Mainly that's block / protect / delete (and a few other bits like user rights). So the question then is has WP changed in the way the admin tools should be used in 10 years? Well, obviously community views change in terms of what fits into a specific CSD tag, or whether a 24 hour or week block is "what's right" - but fundamentally admins stop damage and remove non encyclopedic crud. That hasn't changed. This then leads us back to "do we trust an individual to use the tools wisely"; exactly why I wrote WP:NETPOS 10 (arggghhh! 10!!!) years ago. It's still as relevant an essay today as it was then - because what admins do fundamentally hasn't changed. Just my 2p Pedro : Chat 14:28, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If the RfA is not the first one of the candidate, I think a bot should ask a question. Something like "4. Your first RFA, back in YYYY, was unsuccessful. What have you learned since then to demonstrate that you are qualified for adminship now?" Or "How have you changed since then?" Or something similar to that. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:17, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Support bot suffrage. Beep Boop.
🤖 19:23, 30 June 2018 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Do we need an RFC on whether RFA oppose votes without any rationale are permitted? This apparently is a very heated issue that may need a cold and boring RFC to resolve. As several people have noted, in cases where there is non-trivial opposition, it's trivial to say "per XYZ" in an oppose vote. If a rule only matters for non-controversial cases, it may not be worth having a rule.
Also, if we do establish a rule that a reason is strictly required for oppose votes, we may also need some rules on what reasons are not allowed. An oppose vote explicitly based on race or gender would probably get someone sanctioned now, but should "protest votes" be allowed? Would "Bot operators shouldn't be admins" be allowed? Historically, opposes based on "too inclusionist"/"too deletionist" have been accepted, though perhaps discounted by bureaucrats in the discretionary zone. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 00:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Extended content
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SQL, your support seems predicated on dismissing the issues raised by opposers without actually addressing them, then declaring "Adminship should be no big deal." We should also have world peace, an end to hunger, and a cure for cancer. Adminship not being a big deal is the same kind of idealized wish-making (even if perhaps a goal to inch toward). Adminship has very definitely been a big deal for about the last decade, maybe more like 12 years. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is, and the community made it that way. I think this is an organizational lifecycle matter. WP transitioned from a wild-and-wooly, early-adopters, visionary experiment phase into a global institution rather quickly, and that necessarily meant internal governance shifts which can't really be undone without starting from scratch (the way various failing companies sometimes do successfully). WP isn't failing, so there's not much incentive to go there. Despite various Chicken Little cries, the admin pool is actually stable and getting the important behind-the-scenes work done, so we are not in a position of having to approve iffy candidates (iffy because of temperament/competence or, as in this case, because of focus/rationale misalignment). There might be a way to make adminship less of a big deal, but it's going to take a lot of work and lot of community buy-in, which so far has not happened, despite some clear ways of getting there, like unbundling more of the less dangerous tools to increase the pool of competent "quasi-admins"; have adminship term limits and reconfirmation, instead of for-life, all-or-nothing appointments; and various other approaches we all know are likely to be effective but which too few people will outright support due to sheer terror that any change to the adminship system will cause a trainwreck. Maybe that is a discussion to have at
WT:ADMIN, but I felt compelled to comment here because "opposers are wrong because I disagree" posturing isn't a real rationale, and "adminship should be no big deal" isn't a valid one today, either. PS: In fairness, Laser_brain also trotted out the "no big deal" canard. I agree with L_b's other sentiment, about broadening the admin pool to all competent editors, but this is another of the adminship reform ideas that's been proposed again and again only to be shot down by the community (and to an extent by WMF itself; they claim there's a legal reason that everyone can't just be made an admin automatically after some tenure as a constructive and non-disruptive editor). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:10, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
|
I think the bulk of this thread is more relevant for WT:RFA than the original page it was posted on. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I was surprised to see this page "red linked". I can imagine several reasons for turning it blue. Tell me why I am wrong about this, or perhaps right?-- John Cline ( talk) 09:41, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I have started a discussion about the new interface administrator user group at WP:VPM#RFC: Interface administrators and transition. Please take a moment to review and/or comment. -- Izno ( talk) 14:50, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Not so long ago, there was an RfA. The candidate was an SPI clerk, and yet one vote said "concerned about his lack of activity in SPI". Could somebody please tell me which RfA was it? —usernamekiran (talk) 15:58, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
The subject of temporary adminship came up at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Pbsouthwood. Posting here because it is a broiader issue and discussuon is likely to wander off-topic to that nomination. A couple of editors opined that this would be a worthwhile thing to do. I know it was discussed in the past with reference to non-admins being elected to ArbCom. Aparently, it has been done for WMF staff? I don't see any real obstacles to it. WP:Administrators says Administrators may request that their access to administrative tools be removed at Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard. There is nothing that says that removal it cannot be requesated in advance. Anyone have any thoughts? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
I disagree that you can't demonstrate competence, as for the most part the tools are fairly straightforward and operate like everything else around here. What you need to demonstrate is judgment, and there are dozens of places where participating does just that. More importantly, I'm not sold that such a process would be sufficient to satisfy the WMF as regards viewing deleted content. Although admittedly it does seem more involved than many of our sister projects' systems. ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 10:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
RFA-identical processis required for viewdeleted, the "process" part is that there is an open community consensus building exercise to vet the editor and ensure they have the support of the community. The "result" of the process does not need to be the same (that is, it could result in an admin that is time or function limited, or subject to community managed removal processes). — xaosflux Talk 14:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Personally I advocate for the RfA shift that would invalidate arguments purely based on certain grounds if a sufficient (consensus-agreed) quality level was made (number of edits, article edits, AfD !votes etc) so that those oppose arguments that were given would pick up on the most serious grounds so long as an experienced applicant was involved. That apparently, though, was rejected, though I don't know how much by. Nosebagbear ( talk) 15:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Without pointing fingers or citing specific examples, I will try to outline the problems I have seen with some oppose votes on recent RFAs that seem to serve no legitimate purpose with respect to the actual process of promoting (or not promoting) users to adminship. But first I will note that most oppose votes appear to be good faith and constructive criticism, and I am not going to criticize such votes, as I think they are very important to the RFA process. It appears that those oppose votes that are bad faith serve to start a cycle that goes roughly as follows:
This process wastes a lot of people's time and energy, and it seems clear that it should not be allowed to keep happening. Something must be done about unnecessarily provocative RFA opposes based on bogus reasons, and that something should include a broad reform of the RFA voting process. I suspect that making voting anonymous rather than in a publicly visible place (like an RFA page) would help. IntoThinAir (formerly Everymorning) talk 01:31, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
it seems clear that it should not be allowed to keep happening", I don't particularly agree. As others have mentioned above, this really isn't a big problem. It doesn't affect the outcome of RFAs, most people ignore it anyway, and for those who do choose to engage in the debate, well good luck to them, they probably did so because they wanted to. Freedom of speech at RFA is something we cherish, and I would fear that any solution to address this minor issue would risk throwing the baby out with the bath water and possibly inhibiting other more genuine expressions of editor opinion. — Amakuru ( talk) 12:43, 1 August 2018 (UTC)