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I have a question and a request of you. Please note that Augustów notes Augustavas, Sejny notes Sejny, . Szczecin will note German Settin, Cieszyn will note German Teschen and Czech Těšín, Białystok will note Belarusian Беласток (Biełastok), Lithuanian Balstogė, and even Yiddish ביאַליסטאָק. All Polish cities follow the proposed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), which allows the use in lead of other well known and popular names, and there are no conflicts if sb want's to add a (used, popular, historical) name. And non only Polish cities follow that rule: Latvian Daugavpils has Russian and Lithuanian, Jelgava has German, Lithuanian, Russian and Polish spellings, Salaspils notes Polish Kircholm, Belarusian Hrodna notes both Polish Grodno and Lithuanian Gardinas, Niasviž lists Russian, Lithuanian and Polish too, Russian Klushino has Polish Kłuszyn.... This is even followed outside of our little part of the world: Strasbourg (French) has German Straßburg. Therefore one would reasonably expect that if a city was called with a Polish name for several centuries (as most Lithuanian cities were in the times of the PLC) and that name would be relativly popular in English publication (Google Print search) we would note that in the article; same with German or Belarusian or Russian or other applicable names. Yet in vain one can look for a mention of Wilno in Vilnius, Troki in Trakai, or Kowno in Kaunas, Kłajpeda in Klaipėda, even through the Polish names are commonly used in English texts about history of that region ( [1], and especially compare [2] vs [3]). I understand capitals are a special case, and the reference to Names of European cities in different languages is good style, I ask for nothing more in this case. But please tell me (this is my question) why are Polish, Belarusian, German and other names often removed from articles about Lithuanian cities ( [4], [5], [6]). No edit summaries, no explanation - just removal from the article any mention that it used to have a Polish (or other names). A cursory Google Print search will show that often those names are very popular, thus they should be used if for no other reason that to avoid confusion when a person unfamiliar with geography and history of Europe types, let's say, Troki, into our search engines and finds himself at Trakai with no explanation for name change... Therefore my request is to think if having foreign names is really so irritiating, and if you could yourself restore relevant names to articles that are now missing them. And please note I am not asking for anything exceptional, but rather for what is normal on Wiki - and note that the glaring difference between the Wiki customs and practice in Lithuanian cities simply looks strange and raises some eyebrows. Thank you, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
P. S. I support moving this discussion to some other place. Linas Lituanus
Well, let's move it away, because it seems this gonna take some time to discuss this matter, and it is gonna simply disturb normal work rythm of a project talk page.-- Lokyz 16:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I on the other hand would support having the alternative (including foreign, where applicable) names mentioned in the lead. I think it is informative and does no harm. It would be of course different if someone tried to rename the article from say Vilnius to Wilno. I, too, would be interested to learn why the foreign names are removed from the articles of Lithuanian towns. -- Lysy talk 17:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Olessi, forget the "insider" and "outsider" labels. I often agree with Lysy and P.P.(Prokonsul Piotrus), just not here. Big deal, right! Due to my involvement of intensive activity at work (the psychiatric ward, ha), I've been derelict in doing my Wikipedia duty. I am also very active in trying to change U.S. policy regarding our absurd involvement in Iraq. That's taking up a lot of my time, and money too. Always do a job well, I say! As a chief proponent of not having these various names in the leads of the geographical toponyms in question, please bear with me. I intend to address this in intense detail to all of you, very soon. And here, is as good as any place. Dr. Dan 01:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
So I have a bit additional time to spend on talks, so mine view of this issue as I promised. I am very pleased with Lysy, who do not hiding behind other editors or accusing other editors for “crimes”, contrary to Piotrus. Arguments provided by Lokyz and Lysy are interesting and discussion is much welcome, but I want to make some notable remarks. First – this is not case related only to Lithuanian vs Polish, this is related to brooder sense. And such statement as why something that works for Poland, France or other countries cannot work for Lithuania? is generally untrue. Because the same issue is present in Russian, Polish, Byelorussian etc. cases. And the system is not work so well as despite as it is was tried to present contrary in this discussion. If you are really determined to find this endorsement, dig in articles histories (don’t forget Polish too) and you will find it. Lets a bit analyze naming convention lead: Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in lead if popular and important enough that they are valuable to readers, should be avoided in titles unless no English version exists and should be used in articles with caution. Does anybody fell difference between can be used and should be used? Another very important issue, that some Polish editors (particularly two) is pretending that such names as Vilnius is a modern. Of course this is pathetic approach. Lets analyze this too: would reasonably expect that if a city was called with a Polish name for several centuries . Who said this? How the research was conducted, which lead to his conclusion? And similar questions. This particular statement probably directed to Vilnius case. I can assure you all, that at least in contemporary Lithuanian writing this city is not called as Wilno, plus different population called it differently.
Which arguments were provided to hold different names in the lead? Lets quickly summarize. First (the “true” and “unchallenged” ) “argument” is that cities were in PLC. But thousands of them were in PLC. Another arguments – “informative”, and other editor noted as ”interesting”. How these “informative” and “interesting” was measured? Ok lets take an example, random one – Warsaw, I am seeking these “informative” and “interesting” , but hey! I cant find any of these, even the article do not poses this treasure chest, which if reasonable thinking should be, because it holds a bit of these “informative” and “interesting” by lining up more then 20 names.. So there is a sense of “informative” and “interesting” in this case? Ok lets go to different case, and lets use Piotrus` methodics. Lets pretend that I am the “a person unfamiliar with geography and history of Europe types, let's say, Liublinas, into our search engines and finds himself at Lublin with no explanation for name change...” So there is a good will here? It was a part of PLC, it likely met a “informative” and “interesting” criteria . Is it no need to change a situation? Nor I nor I did monitor that any Lithuanian editor tried to push this Lithuanian name as hard as sometimes Polish do in Lithuanian towns. There was presented some case as Kaunas, Klaipėda etc to hold a Polish names, they do not have notable Polish minority nor it have notable support from “beauty contest” (as one editor said) googling (particular is unfounded is Kłajpeda), small tows have the same issue. So to me the provided Piotrus refernces is unsounded arguments. But discusion should continue to see all positions and to seek better understanding of this case M.K. 11:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I tried to answer, it is in mine message above, but for more clearness, question could sound like – why foreign names were added in such cases as 1, 2 (this particular case PL) and much more..? Now here, was introduced even new proposal about Klaipėda, as it was ridiculed already so no need to stop in this case. Another moment when name placed by only pushing POV, it is the best environment for rv. wars – say that Trakai have common with BE name of it?? M.K. 16:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Lysy's and Piotrus' observations from a few posts before. I edit locality articles in numerous countries, but the Lithuanian ones seem to be the only exception to the Local Name (Other language: Alternate Name) format. I am concerned with consistency between locality articles on WP, not with local sensitivities. I can understand the reluctance not to include "new" names like "Kłajpeda", but historical names should be included somewhere in the article (if not the lead) instead of being outright removed. Having a separate discussion for Lithuanian localities seems a fork from Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names). Olessi 19:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem I do see, that Poles still think it was not common culture, it was only Polish. And this ridiculous add "modern" before city name simply suggests it was Polish all the time, without any regards to Lithuanian roots of it's name and founders/people who were living there. It's based on few myths, and projection of 19th century romantic literature into 16th or even 17th century without any reflection or need to find a what a true situation was. That is what I do speaking about attitude - it can be clearly seen from edit summaries like "Poland Poland everywhere", and also like google books search like "Lithuanian nationalism", to support dubious teories about official language. Please show me at least one contemorary document, that does state something about "official language" in 16th century? At the time, when only 2 to 5 percent othe people could read, not to mention writing. It's another one projection of nowadays realities into the past, because term "official language" was coined with emergence of nationalism, and that was at the begining of 19th century and was supported by mass education. Although I do have little hope to be heard, because some books like to cite books like "The Polish-Lithuanian state, 1386-1795" to support this idea: and in my opinion the name of the book already clearly shows ignorance of the matter by the author (or at least sources, he wrote his book from).-- Lokyz 21:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad you did mention Latin, as it was called a true and not spoiled "Lithuanian" language. This tradition comes form 16th century mythology created by literate Lithuanian szlachta and magnates (and partially by Strijkowski). I know, that this is quote controversial statement, although modern Lithuanian research tend to use this argument and does find many documents supporting it (note, Latin, not Ruthenian). I do not deny fact of Polonization, although it was a fact a bit later than assumed - in reality it did happen in 18th century.-- Lokyz 23:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
And one simple question - Piotrus, what bachelor degree did you receive. I'm just curios. If you do not want to answer, it's up to you. I still feel, that you do not have a clue in humanitarian/social sciences. I know, that you have a right to ban me for this question. Although I've already stated my qualification and limits of it. Can you do it also? -- Lokyz 21:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Some more Lithuanian eyes are needed on the Glitiškės article. Of course it is one of the most difficult articles, together with Dubingiai. There are two problems there: 1. one of the users insist on including a controversial statement on Dubingiai in Glitiškės article. IMHO this is already difficult enough in Dubingiai (where this information belongs) and I reverted it as it seems to be kind of ruthless POV pushing. 2. Could someone take a look at http://www.xxiamzius.lt/numeriai/2004/08/18/zvil_01.html and verify if this is a reliable, neutral source that adequately supports the sentence in question ? I think a discussion is missing at Glitiškės. -- Lysy talk 11:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's simplify matters by having these same Polish editors clammering for more inclusive toponyms in Wikipedia, add the Polish names for Kiev and Moscow in the leads of those articles (I know I metioned this above, but was fearful it might have gotten lost in the confusion). Dr. Dan 01:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what was the aim but this have been tried in pre-Dan wikitime. Several users coordinated at PL board attacked the leads of Kiev and Minsk. See Kiev revert war and the Minsk one. The discussion ensued here and a non-Ukrainian, non-Russian, non-Polish American editor user:Nohat who stated there that "Having the Polish name for Kiev as the third piece of information in the article is ridiculous" found himself for that later in now famous Black Book who some here remember very well. This was a great time of us all younger and more naive. Did anything change? -- Irpen 06:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Dan, I don't need to ask why Russian editors object to having anything Polish mentioned in articles about towns that they consider Russian. What I asked was why is it a problem for Lithuanians and as I stated, I thought I knew the answer, but felt it needed to be verified (this is why I excused for apparent trolling, Dr. Dan, if you reread my statement above; no need to twist my words). Lokyz was kind enough to answer it, and as you may have noticed, I proposed to seek a compromise that would allow to have the names mentioned without irritating Lithuanian editors. I think Lokyz and myself were inclined to work towards a solution, but apparently other editors are more hardcore and prefer editwarring instead. -- Lysy talk 06:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps Poles don't intend to use the alternative names in the lead for self-advertizing. Perhaps analysis by Dr. Dan, that's above, is a coincidence only. However the problem exist, that the rule, allowing to put alternative names without any restriction (1) limits possibility of other users to control self-advertizing, allowing alternative names without any reasoning (when we can found a suspect insertion anywhere in an article just from that it hasn't reason to be in that place ) and (2) doesn't correlate with guidelines, that talk about self-advertizing in Wikipedia. And your arguments about customs in Wikipedia, that allow alternative names, are valid till the alternative name has some evident reason or a background. Piotrus did mention Kłajpeda above as a possible alternative name. But the fact is, that this name was used in Polish after 1923 only. So it isn't any historical name, that may be interesting as such. Now do we have some warranty, that other names, that are put as historical by Polish users, aren't put there only because they were found in the internet? It's very easy to transliterate a word in Lithuanian to a word in Polish and to add a Polish inflexion (like hypothetical Vilkijiškiai -> Wilkiiszki), and one gets a name, that he wants to be treated as historical. No sources, no reasoning, just an alternative name.
Now, what do true alternative names mean? They mean that i can write the alternative name instead of the main to any less official document, that's in English (e.g. to one's personal application or to a petition to a government), not speaking about a mail adressing. Did many alternative names of towns, that were put to a lead pass this requirement? But if they don't pass, this limitation should be mentioned necessary. Was it actually mentioned anywhere? Linas Lituanus 16:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid, we still speak in different languages. You suggest, that any rational solution and even the decision, that the problem exists, should be taken in talk pages of the guidelines. Did your intention to know , why Lithuanian side removed the alternative names, was no more than formality (in the sense perhaps they haven't an answer)? If it's so, my idea was essentially different from the situation then. I thought, that the both sides can take a joint decision after a discussion, and the both teams would be able to change the guidelines working hand of hand.
Now, we can't move from the point we stand. And we'll not be able till the percentual approach will be the only. I say, that Kłajpeda isn't a historical name, You answer with percents ("People may want to know how the word Klaipėda is in Polish and how it is in many other languages, that don't retain original spelling of Latin-based alphabets"). That seems to be the all, but we have known it just from the beginning of our discussion. It's almost evident, that a guideline or a wiki-customs has a sense, while it's used in concordance with other existing guidelines. Well, when you use a rule, forgetting other rules, it's very strange then to appeal to the rule. No self-advertizing either commercial or politicaly-based should be in the Wikipedia. You know it, and this rule is more essential than many others, by the way. You, the Polish side, caused this way the result youselves. I understand, that you actually can't control what single users insert to articles. So we as a team can't control what single users delete. This process depends not on a team as it is, but more on mentality of a team, more on some common sense. And the common sense of yours says that all is right, and the Wikipedia is a some place of a contest, where the truest information is defined as the information by the most powerful sources. And Suvalkai becames equal to Kłajpeda in this sense and many other things became equal or different than some weak minorities would like to see. And the current situation here won't be changed till this "common sense" this common mentality not takes some changes. That's why I don't welcome the experiments with Lublin by Dr. Dan, although the experiment were very interesting as well as the short resumee of their results here above, - the result was almost known long before the experiment had been started, but the processing of the experiment worked more for war than for solution. I, however, agree with user:Olessi, when he says historical names should be included somewhere in the article (if not the lead) instead of being outright removed, and i welcome all initiatives of this kind (my own idea is to include a reason, why the name is used, but it evidently can't be done in the lead. Perhaps these initiatives can change something. But the change of mentality takes hundreds of years, and we may expect just to fasten the process but not to see a results. Linas Lituanus 19:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you contribute to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) instead of discussing it here ? The guideline was proposed as a joint effort of many editors, including Polish, German, Ukrainian and Lithuanian, too. Why don't you join the effort instead of reinventing the wheel here ? -- Lysy talk 00:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
And here is my proposition - Polish names of Lithuanian cities could be included not in a lead but just in history section of a town name by formula like this one: "During Commonwealth times city outside Lithuania was known by it's Polonised name "Wilno"". And of course it should be mentioned only where it is relevant (You don't think that, for example Rumšiškės is relevant and has a great importance for Poland's history?. And no (modern Vilnius) or (now Vilnius) anywhere else, even in biographies - simple (Vilnius) would be enough. I think this would solve all discussions on this matter.-- Lokyz 15:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
And one more thing - about "Polish" rule in Lithuania, here is contemporary answer of Baranauskas to Basanavičius - it's Polish, you'll be able to understand it correct link (Just a simple reminder - Halibutt used to call him Polish).-- Lokyz 20:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Instead of "fixing a flat tire", as Dan put it, I invite you to contribute to the proposed to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Frankly, please do consider this. It is not a "Polish chauvinistic" proposal, and great care had been taken to have editors with different POVs and from different countries reach a mutually acceptable guideline there. It has been very difficult and required a lot of care to have the many contributors there (that normally more often fought each other on the articles' POVs) identify themselves with the proposal. I know working on the guideline with a set objective is more demanding than our free chat here, but once again, I do strongly suggest to take a look there, and maybe you'd be able to improve it. Better do it now, while it's in proposal phase and not a policy yet. Some of the ideas raised here, have already filtered it out to the proposal discussion. However, I think only one Lithuanian editor, Dirgela, has so far looked at it. More input and positive contribution would be helpful. -- Lysy talk 15:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I have decided just to simply fuck it, and tell the nasty and ugly truth: the only solution out of this nonsense is for someone to quit. So let me be the first.
I thank Lysy for his real mediation efforts. I just can hope you will not get eaten alive. Piotrus, stop telling every single editor to assume good faith, quit making personal attacks. It's thoroughly annoying. Hali, good luck on further destroying the Lithuanian community on WP. Dan, you will get blocked one day. M.K, grow up (but I guess that's too much to ask for a guy). Juraune, good luck among these big shots blinded by testosterone rage. Lokyz, less typos and less categories. Linas, I would say be more active, but there is no use.
And in case you wonder why... because I cannot live with such nonsense. Every Lithuanian is destined to have a problem with Halibutt, because his mission here is not to allow anything Lithuanian on WP (no Lithuanian toponyms for Vilnius or Rumsiskes, no Lithuanian ancestry for Gucevicius, no Lithuanian poets in Anyksciu silelis, no Lithuanians in Central Lithuania). I tried to ignore, work around, argue, and plead. Nothing worked, no one budged an inch. And yes, I do have the balls to say: I DO have a problem with Halibutt. But I do not have the will to fight him, so let me leave. Good night, everyone. Renata 23:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I need a break, too. Hope you'll come back, Renata. Your coolness is so much needed here. -- Lysy talk 20:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Point 1, seems to be one of those by now famous oxymoronic quotes of Hali's. I left this discussion and have no intentions to return. Do you write these things yourself, or edit the work of a staff that manages to goof things up for you? Dr. Dan 02:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Renata's straightforwad naming of the problems. Halibutt is going overboard and his friends gladly follow him. Lysy, this is not about you, (and not about Szopen, and even Mr. Balcer), I do not agree with you often, but I believe that you have a human heart. Piotrus, you so many times saw personal attacks where no attacks were meant just to cover Hali's back, that it is becomming ridiculous. And Halibutt, farewell to you, leave this discussion, leave Lithuanian topics, you cannot force your "help" where non is needed. There is the example of your help, that Lokyz mentioned above [ [10]]. Go play computer games shooting aliens, and do not play with live people, who want to do something constructive, nice and positive. Girla's edits make more sense than yours. Juraune 17:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Funny, huh? I just wrote on that familiar trick minute ago, and here we go. It pops up again. -- Irpen 18:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, you are too kind. As for myself, after reading P.P.'s edit, I actually didn't know whether to laugh or cry. After seeing the latest award he bestowed on Hali, I've opted to "take a trip to Riga" instead. Dr. Dan 02:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, this is not a personal attack, this is an observation. How is it possible to attack someone who only talks, points to read to Lithuanians about Lithuanians, laughs and cries, and doesn't listen? Juraune 14:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again I'll try to show some good will. I hereby apologize anyone who found that offensive for not knowing a single word of Lithuanian. I'm sorry, but I never had a chance to learn the proper conjunction in Lithuanian and did not know what proper suffixes to add in cases like this one. If there is anything else I should apologize for - just let me know, I'll try to start a new chapter and forget all the past.
In response, do I deserve some apology for slandering my good name and accusing me of anti-Lithuanian sentiments and other fancy things? I asked for any diff or link to support those accusations, but to no avail. So perhaps the good way would be to apologize, withdraw those absurd accusations intended solely to damage my reputation and... try to go on? // Halibu tt 08:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
While discussion and will is always appreciated and encouraged, I have obligation to look a bit deeper on proper conjunction in Lithuanian and did not know what proper suffixes to add in cases like
this one issue. Lets start our journey from Gucevičius article talk also keeping in mind that the user did not know what proper suffixes to add and lets see
this link without any big details lets look these examples - Viljamas Šekspyras, Andžejus Leperis, Lešekas Mileris Jurgis Kazmirkievičius, and lets look to them once more time - Viljamas Šekspyras, Andžejus Leperis, Lešekas Mileris, Jurgis Kazmirkievičius, while looking to these examples also do not forget that contributor did not know what proper suffixes to add. Now lets analyze these words: Viljamas Šekspyras, who is not familiar with this - aka
William Shakespeare, Viljamas Šekspyras word constructed quite good I don’t see “asas”, but lets go to others Andžejus Leperis aka
Andrzej Lepper – construction quite good, another Lešekas Mileris aka
Leszek Miller, another Jurgis Kazmirkievičius aka
Jerzy Kaźmirkiewicz . Lets keep in mind these examples. Also lets analyze
this link too . Lest look to these - Pilsudskis; Šekspyras; Homeras – hmmm constructions are reasonable. But don’t forget that author is saying about
here Lets move on. Take a look
here. This is important link because contributor
Halibutt constructed his LT name – Halibuttas lets bold this name - Halibuttas. Question does anybody sees here Halibuttasas ? Nope. But lets move on, but still keeping
this. There is possibility, impossible one actually, that from contributions on Gucevičius article take page, where he quite emotional showed to probably ethnic Lithuanians how to add Lithuanian forms of –is- us- -as-, but now he suddenly forget these skills and wrote Eustachiusasas Tyškievičiusasas. Very suddenly! Lets look to his one of the newest editions
here. Construction quite good. So is it truth that he did not know proper constructions? Could be raised rhetoric question is motive why Eustachiusasas Tyškievičiusasas was writen in such way, was only due to did not know? Or is this user basing his case of good will on truth, partial truth?
M.K.
20:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt wrote: "If there is anything else I should apologize for - just let me know, I'll try to start a new chapter and forget all the past". I think you should openly apologize for mocking Lithuanian language. You probably know this, but Lithuanians are very proud of their language as much of their national identity is centered around it. So making fun of it seems inappropriate. Having witnessed most of the conflict so far, I think I know and can understand the current situation and I believe it would be best you can do. I'm only writing this since you've asked. I think the other side owes you some apology as well, but I don't expect you'll ever get it. --
Lysy
talk
21:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt's sad attitude of seing the criticism of himself as some kind of a Litnuanian (or even an international) conspiracy directed against his good name ascribes too much importance to his personality. And than Piotrus endless defence of him putting the fault on others just adds the gas to fire. Users left Wikipedia making it clear that they did so because they can't take Halibutt anymore (this is a fact). As Renata has thankfully returned, I suggest that Piotrus leaves the moderation of Lithuanian editors to her and deals sternly with his compatriots. Two recent racist remarks, one by Lysy and one by Ghirla-stalker, were recently brought to his attention by me if he needs to see where we could use his efforts. -- Irpen 21:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone still watching this page? Would any of the participants be willing to tell me whether this page did any good? -- El on ka 09:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes and no, as some editors refused to compromise an inch. I do think this page would make an excellent case study of the issues leading and reinforcing ethnic and cultural-centered wiki conflicts.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | Piotrus, stop telling in every single edit to assume good faith, don't make personal attacks. It's thoroughly annoying. Hali, good luck on further destruction of Lithuanian community on WP. Dan, you will get blocked one day. M.K, grow up (but I guess that's too much to ask for a guy). Juraune, good luck among these big shots blinded by totestrone rage... user:Renata3 | ” |
“ | And in case you wonder why... because I cannot live with such nonsense. Every Lithuanian is destined to have a problem with Halibutt, because his mission here is not to let anything Lithuanian on WP (no Lithuanian name for Vilnius or Rumsiskes, no Lithuanian name for Gucevicius, no Lithuanian poets in Anyksciu silelis, no Lithuanians in Central Lithuania). I tried to ignore, work around, argue, and plead. Nothing worked, not moving an inch. And yes, I do have the balls to say: I DO have a problem with Halibutt. But I do not the will to fight him, so let me leave. Good night, everyone. user:Renata3 (currently active again) | ” |
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Okay, as I've been sorting through various other projects of this type, and running my own project for Hungarian-Slovak disputes, it looks like the main reason that this Lithuanian project failed in the past, was the lack of a neutral admin moderator. If one could be found, would folks be interested in trying again? Or have most of the active disputes settled down? Or if you could get a neutral admin, which article "hotspots" most need supervision at the moment? Are the disputes primarily on talkpages? Or are there active revert wars going on anywhere? Thanks, -- El on ka 15:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I created an entry for you at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Directory/History_and_society#Ethnic_conflict_resolution_projects. Since there hasn't been any activity recently I entered you as Active=no; please change as appropriate. I hope that if you are indeed inactive that it's a sign that conflicts have calmed down. — Sebastian 07:21, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
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I have a question and a request of you. Please note that Augustów notes Augustavas, Sejny notes Sejny, . Szczecin will note German Settin, Cieszyn will note German Teschen and Czech Těšín, Białystok will note Belarusian Беласток (Biełastok), Lithuanian Balstogė, and even Yiddish ביאַליסטאָק. All Polish cities follow the proposed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), which allows the use in lead of other well known and popular names, and there are no conflicts if sb want's to add a (used, popular, historical) name. And non only Polish cities follow that rule: Latvian Daugavpils has Russian and Lithuanian, Jelgava has German, Lithuanian, Russian and Polish spellings, Salaspils notes Polish Kircholm, Belarusian Hrodna notes both Polish Grodno and Lithuanian Gardinas, Niasviž lists Russian, Lithuanian and Polish too, Russian Klushino has Polish Kłuszyn.... This is even followed outside of our little part of the world: Strasbourg (French) has German Straßburg. Therefore one would reasonably expect that if a city was called with a Polish name for several centuries (as most Lithuanian cities were in the times of the PLC) and that name would be relativly popular in English publication (Google Print search) we would note that in the article; same with German or Belarusian or Russian or other applicable names. Yet in vain one can look for a mention of Wilno in Vilnius, Troki in Trakai, or Kowno in Kaunas, Kłajpeda in Klaipėda, even through the Polish names are commonly used in English texts about history of that region ( [1], and especially compare [2] vs [3]). I understand capitals are a special case, and the reference to Names of European cities in different languages is good style, I ask for nothing more in this case. But please tell me (this is my question) why are Polish, Belarusian, German and other names often removed from articles about Lithuanian cities ( [4], [5], [6]). No edit summaries, no explanation - just removal from the article any mention that it used to have a Polish (or other names). A cursory Google Print search will show that often those names are very popular, thus they should be used if for no other reason that to avoid confusion when a person unfamiliar with geography and history of Europe types, let's say, Troki, into our search engines and finds himself at Trakai with no explanation for name change... Therefore my request is to think if having foreign names is really so irritiating, and if you could yourself restore relevant names to articles that are now missing them. And please note I am not asking for anything exceptional, but rather for what is normal on Wiki - and note that the glaring difference between the Wiki customs and practice in Lithuanian cities simply looks strange and raises some eyebrows. Thank you, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
P. S. I support moving this discussion to some other place. Linas Lituanus
Well, let's move it away, because it seems this gonna take some time to discuss this matter, and it is gonna simply disturb normal work rythm of a project talk page.-- Lokyz 16:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I on the other hand would support having the alternative (including foreign, where applicable) names mentioned in the lead. I think it is informative and does no harm. It would be of course different if someone tried to rename the article from say Vilnius to Wilno. I, too, would be interested to learn why the foreign names are removed from the articles of Lithuanian towns. -- Lysy talk 17:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Olessi, forget the "insider" and "outsider" labels. I often agree with Lysy and P.P.(Prokonsul Piotrus), just not here. Big deal, right! Due to my involvement of intensive activity at work (the psychiatric ward, ha), I've been derelict in doing my Wikipedia duty. I am also very active in trying to change U.S. policy regarding our absurd involvement in Iraq. That's taking up a lot of my time, and money too. Always do a job well, I say! As a chief proponent of not having these various names in the leads of the geographical toponyms in question, please bear with me. I intend to address this in intense detail to all of you, very soon. And here, is as good as any place. Dr. Dan 01:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
So I have a bit additional time to spend on talks, so mine view of this issue as I promised. I am very pleased with Lysy, who do not hiding behind other editors or accusing other editors for “crimes”, contrary to Piotrus. Arguments provided by Lokyz and Lysy are interesting and discussion is much welcome, but I want to make some notable remarks. First – this is not case related only to Lithuanian vs Polish, this is related to brooder sense. And such statement as why something that works for Poland, France or other countries cannot work for Lithuania? is generally untrue. Because the same issue is present in Russian, Polish, Byelorussian etc. cases. And the system is not work so well as despite as it is was tried to present contrary in this discussion. If you are really determined to find this endorsement, dig in articles histories (don’t forget Polish too) and you will find it. Lets a bit analyze naming convention lead: Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in lead if popular and important enough that they are valuable to readers, should be avoided in titles unless no English version exists and should be used in articles with caution. Does anybody fell difference between can be used and should be used? Another very important issue, that some Polish editors (particularly two) is pretending that such names as Vilnius is a modern. Of course this is pathetic approach. Lets analyze this too: would reasonably expect that if a city was called with a Polish name for several centuries . Who said this? How the research was conducted, which lead to his conclusion? And similar questions. This particular statement probably directed to Vilnius case. I can assure you all, that at least in contemporary Lithuanian writing this city is not called as Wilno, plus different population called it differently.
Which arguments were provided to hold different names in the lead? Lets quickly summarize. First (the “true” and “unchallenged” ) “argument” is that cities were in PLC. But thousands of them were in PLC. Another arguments – “informative”, and other editor noted as ”interesting”. How these “informative” and “interesting” was measured? Ok lets take an example, random one – Warsaw, I am seeking these “informative” and “interesting” , but hey! I cant find any of these, even the article do not poses this treasure chest, which if reasonable thinking should be, because it holds a bit of these “informative” and “interesting” by lining up more then 20 names.. So there is a sense of “informative” and “interesting” in this case? Ok lets go to different case, and lets use Piotrus` methodics. Lets pretend that I am the “a person unfamiliar with geography and history of Europe types, let's say, Liublinas, into our search engines and finds himself at Lublin with no explanation for name change...” So there is a good will here? It was a part of PLC, it likely met a “informative” and “interesting” criteria . Is it no need to change a situation? Nor I nor I did monitor that any Lithuanian editor tried to push this Lithuanian name as hard as sometimes Polish do in Lithuanian towns. There was presented some case as Kaunas, Klaipėda etc to hold a Polish names, they do not have notable Polish minority nor it have notable support from “beauty contest” (as one editor said) googling (particular is unfounded is Kłajpeda), small tows have the same issue. So to me the provided Piotrus refernces is unsounded arguments. But discusion should continue to see all positions and to seek better understanding of this case M.K. 11:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I tried to answer, it is in mine message above, but for more clearness, question could sound like – why foreign names were added in such cases as 1, 2 (this particular case PL) and much more..? Now here, was introduced even new proposal about Klaipėda, as it was ridiculed already so no need to stop in this case. Another moment when name placed by only pushing POV, it is the best environment for rv. wars – say that Trakai have common with BE name of it?? M.K. 16:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Lysy's and Piotrus' observations from a few posts before. I edit locality articles in numerous countries, but the Lithuanian ones seem to be the only exception to the Local Name (Other language: Alternate Name) format. I am concerned with consistency between locality articles on WP, not with local sensitivities. I can understand the reluctance not to include "new" names like "Kłajpeda", but historical names should be included somewhere in the article (if not the lead) instead of being outright removed. Having a separate discussion for Lithuanian localities seems a fork from Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names). Olessi 19:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem I do see, that Poles still think it was not common culture, it was only Polish. And this ridiculous add "modern" before city name simply suggests it was Polish all the time, without any regards to Lithuanian roots of it's name and founders/people who were living there. It's based on few myths, and projection of 19th century romantic literature into 16th or even 17th century without any reflection or need to find a what a true situation was. That is what I do speaking about attitude - it can be clearly seen from edit summaries like "Poland Poland everywhere", and also like google books search like "Lithuanian nationalism", to support dubious teories about official language. Please show me at least one contemorary document, that does state something about "official language" in 16th century? At the time, when only 2 to 5 percent othe people could read, not to mention writing. It's another one projection of nowadays realities into the past, because term "official language" was coined with emergence of nationalism, and that was at the begining of 19th century and was supported by mass education. Although I do have little hope to be heard, because some books like to cite books like "The Polish-Lithuanian state, 1386-1795" to support this idea: and in my opinion the name of the book already clearly shows ignorance of the matter by the author (or at least sources, he wrote his book from).-- Lokyz 21:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad you did mention Latin, as it was called a true and not spoiled "Lithuanian" language. This tradition comes form 16th century mythology created by literate Lithuanian szlachta and magnates (and partially by Strijkowski). I know, that this is quote controversial statement, although modern Lithuanian research tend to use this argument and does find many documents supporting it (note, Latin, not Ruthenian). I do not deny fact of Polonization, although it was a fact a bit later than assumed - in reality it did happen in 18th century.-- Lokyz 23:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
And one simple question - Piotrus, what bachelor degree did you receive. I'm just curios. If you do not want to answer, it's up to you. I still feel, that you do not have a clue in humanitarian/social sciences. I know, that you have a right to ban me for this question. Although I've already stated my qualification and limits of it. Can you do it also? -- Lokyz 21:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Some more Lithuanian eyes are needed on the Glitiškės article. Of course it is one of the most difficult articles, together with Dubingiai. There are two problems there: 1. one of the users insist on including a controversial statement on Dubingiai in Glitiškės article. IMHO this is already difficult enough in Dubingiai (where this information belongs) and I reverted it as it seems to be kind of ruthless POV pushing. 2. Could someone take a look at http://www.xxiamzius.lt/numeriai/2004/08/18/zvil_01.html and verify if this is a reliable, neutral source that adequately supports the sentence in question ? I think a discussion is missing at Glitiškės. -- Lysy talk 11:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's simplify matters by having these same Polish editors clammering for more inclusive toponyms in Wikipedia, add the Polish names for Kiev and Moscow in the leads of those articles (I know I metioned this above, but was fearful it might have gotten lost in the confusion). Dr. Dan 01:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what was the aim but this have been tried in pre-Dan wikitime. Several users coordinated at PL board attacked the leads of Kiev and Minsk. See Kiev revert war and the Minsk one. The discussion ensued here and a non-Ukrainian, non-Russian, non-Polish American editor user:Nohat who stated there that "Having the Polish name for Kiev as the third piece of information in the article is ridiculous" found himself for that later in now famous Black Book who some here remember very well. This was a great time of us all younger and more naive. Did anything change? -- Irpen 06:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Dan, I don't need to ask why Russian editors object to having anything Polish mentioned in articles about towns that they consider Russian. What I asked was why is it a problem for Lithuanians and as I stated, I thought I knew the answer, but felt it needed to be verified (this is why I excused for apparent trolling, Dr. Dan, if you reread my statement above; no need to twist my words). Lokyz was kind enough to answer it, and as you may have noticed, I proposed to seek a compromise that would allow to have the names mentioned without irritating Lithuanian editors. I think Lokyz and myself were inclined to work towards a solution, but apparently other editors are more hardcore and prefer editwarring instead. -- Lysy talk 06:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps Poles don't intend to use the alternative names in the lead for self-advertizing. Perhaps analysis by Dr. Dan, that's above, is a coincidence only. However the problem exist, that the rule, allowing to put alternative names without any restriction (1) limits possibility of other users to control self-advertizing, allowing alternative names without any reasoning (when we can found a suspect insertion anywhere in an article just from that it hasn't reason to be in that place ) and (2) doesn't correlate with guidelines, that talk about self-advertizing in Wikipedia. And your arguments about customs in Wikipedia, that allow alternative names, are valid till the alternative name has some evident reason or a background. Piotrus did mention Kłajpeda above as a possible alternative name. But the fact is, that this name was used in Polish after 1923 only. So it isn't any historical name, that may be interesting as such. Now do we have some warranty, that other names, that are put as historical by Polish users, aren't put there only because they were found in the internet? It's very easy to transliterate a word in Lithuanian to a word in Polish and to add a Polish inflexion (like hypothetical Vilkijiškiai -> Wilkiiszki), and one gets a name, that he wants to be treated as historical. No sources, no reasoning, just an alternative name.
Now, what do true alternative names mean? They mean that i can write the alternative name instead of the main to any less official document, that's in English (e.g. to one's personal application or to a petition to a government), not speaking about a mail adressing. Did many alternative names of towns, that were put to a lead pass this requirement? But if they don't pass, this limitation should be mentioned necessary. Was it actually mentioned anywhere? Linas Lituanus 16:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid, we still speak in different languages. You suggest, that any rational solution and even the decision, that the problem exists, should be taken in talk pages of the guidelines. Did your intention to know , why Lithuanian side removed the alternative names, was no more than formality (in the sense perhaps they haven't an answer)? If it's so, my idea was essentially different from the situation then. I thought, that the both sides can take a joint decision after a discussion, and the both teams would be able to change the guidelines working hand of hand.
Now, we can't move from the point we stand. And we'll not be able till the percentual approach will be the only. I say, that Kłajpeda isn't a historical name, You answer with percents ("People may want to know how the word Klaipėda is in Polish and how it is in many other languages, that don't retain original spelling of Latin-based alphabets"). That seems to be the all, but we have known it just from the beginning of our discussion. It's almost evident, that a guideline or a wiki-customs has a sense, while it's used in concordance with other existing guidelines. Well, when you use a rule, forgetting other rules, it's very strange then to appeal to the rule. No self-advertizing either commercial or politicaly-based should be in the Wikipedia. You know it, and this rule is more essential than many others, by the way. You, the Polish side, caused this way the result youselves. I understand, that you actually can't control what single users insert to articles. So we as a team can't control what single users delete. This process depends not on a team as it is, but more on mentality of a team, more on some common sense. And the common sense of yours says that all is right, and the Wikipedia is a some place of a contest, where the truest information is defined as the information by the most powerful sources. And Suvalkai becames equal to Kłajpeda in this sense and many other things became equal or different than some weak minorities would like to see. And the current situation here won't be changed till this "common sense" this common mentality not takes some changes. That's why I don't welcome the experiments with Lublin by Dr. Dan, although the experiment were very interesting as well as the short resumee of their results here above, - the result was almost known long before the experiment had been started, but the processing of the experiment worked more for war than for solution. I, however, agree with user:Olessi, when he says historical names should be included somewhere in the article (if not the lead) instead of being outright removed, and i welcome all initiatives of this kind (my own idea is to include a reason, why the name is used, but it evidently can't be done in the lead. Perhaps these initiatives can change something. But the change of mentality takes hundreds of years, and we may expect just to fasten the process but not to see a results. Linas Lituanus 19:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you contribute to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) instead of discussing it here ? The guideline was proposed as a joint effort of many editors, including Polish, German, Ukrainian and Lithuanian, too. Why don't you join the effort instead of reinventing the wheel here ? -- Lysy talk 00:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
And here is my proposition - Polish names of Lithuanian cities could be included not in a lead but just in history section of a town name by formula like this one: "During Commonwealth times city outside Lithuania was known by it's Polonised name "Wilno"". And of course it should be mentioned only where it is relevant (You don't think that, for example Rumšiškės is relevant and has a great importance for Poland's history?. And no (modern Vilnius) or (now Vilnius) anywhere else, even in biographies - simple (Vilnius) would be enough. I think this would solve all discussions on this matter.-- Lokyz 15:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
And one more thing - about "Polish" rule in Lithuania, here is contemporary answer of Baranauskas to Basanavičius - it's Polish, you'll be able to understand it correct link (Just a simple reminder - Halibutt used to call him Polish).-- Lokyz 20:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Instead of "fixing a flat tire", as Dan put it, I invite you to contribute to the proposed to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Frankly, please do consider this. It is not a "Polish chauvinistic" proposal, and great care had been taken to have editors with different POVs and from different countries reach a mutually acceptable guideline there. It has been very difficult and required a lot of care to have the many contributors there (that normally more often fought each other on the articles' POVs) identify themselves with the proposal. I know working on the guideline with a set objective is more demanding than our free chat here, but once again, I do strongly suggest to take a look there, and maybe you'd be able to improve it. Better do it now, while it's in proposal phase and not a policy yet. Some of the ideas raised here, have already filtered it out to the proposal discussion. However, I think only one Lithuanian editor, Dirgela, has so far looked at it. More input and positive contribution would be helpful. -- Lysy talk 15:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I have decided just to simply fuck it, and tell the nasty and ugly truth: the only solution out of this nonsense is for someone to quit. So let me be the first.
I thank Lysy for his real mediation efforts. I just can hope you will not get eaten alive. Piotrus, stop telling every single editor to assume good faith, quit making personal attacks. It's thoroughly annoying. Hali, good luck on further destroying the Lithuanian community on WP. Dan, you will get blocked one day. M.K, grow up (but I guess that's too much to ask for a guy). Juraune, good luck among these big shots blinded by testosterone rage. Lokyz, less typos and less categories. Linas, I would say be more active, but there is no use.
And in case you wonder why... because I cannot live with such nonsense. Every Lithuanian is destined to have a problem with Halibutt, because his mission here is not to allow anything Lithuanian on WP (no Lithuanian toponyms for Vilnius or Rumsiskes, no Lithuanian ancestry for Gucevicius, no Lithuanian poets in Anyksciu silelis, no Lithuanians in Central Lithuania). I tried to ignore, work around, argue, and plead. Nothing worked, no one budged an inch. And yes, I do have the balls to say: I DO have a problem with Halibutt. But I do not have the will to fight him, so let me leave. Good night, everyone. Renata 23:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I need a break, too. Hope you'll come back, Renata. Your coolness is so much needed here. -- Lysy talk 20:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Point 1, seems to be one of those by now famous oxymoronic quotes of Hali's. I left this discussion and have no intentions to return. Do you write these things yourself, or edit the work of a staff that manages to goof things up for you? Dr. Dan 02:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Renata's straightforwad naming of the problems. Halibutt is going overboard and his friends gladly follow him. Lysy, this is not about you, (and not about Szopen, and even Mr. Balcer), I do not agree with you often, but I believe that you have a human heart. Piotrus, you so many times saw personal attacks where no attacks were meant just to cover Hali's back, that it is becomming ridiculous. And Halibutt, farewell to you, leave this discussion, leave Lithuanian topics, you cannot force your "help" where non is needed. There is the example of your help, that Lokyz mentioned above [ [10]]. Go play computer games shooting aliens, and do not play with live people, who want to do something constructive, nice and positive. Girla's edits make more sense than yours. Juraune 17:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Funny, huh? I just wrote on that familiar trick minute ago, and here we go. It pops up again. -- Irpen 18:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, you are too kind. As for myself, after reading P.P.'s edit, I actually didn't know whether to laugh or cry. After seeing the latest award he bestowed on Hali, I've opted to "take a trip to Riga" instead. Dr. Dan 02:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, this is not a personal attack, this is an observation. How is it possible to attack someone who only talks, points to read to Lithuanians about Lithuanians, laughs and cries, and doesn't listen? Juraune 14:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again I'll try to show some good will. I hereby apologize anyone who found that offensive for not knowing a single word of Lithuanian. I'm sorry, but I never had a chance to learn the proper conjunction in Lithuanian and did not know what proper suffixes to add in cases like this one. If there is anything else I should apologize for - just let me know, I'll try to start a new chapter and forget all the past.
In response, do I deserve some apology for slandering my good name and accusing me of anti-Lithuanian sentiments and other fancy things? I asked for any diff or link to support those accusations, but to no avail. So perhaps the good way would be to apologize, withdraw those absurd accusations intended solely to damage my reputation and... try to go on? // Halibu tt 08:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
While discussion and will is always appreciated and encouraged, I have obligation to look a bit deeper on proper conjunction in Lithuanian and did not know what proper suffixes to add in cases like
this one issue. Lets start our journey from Gucevičius article talk also keeping in mind that the user did not know what proper suffixes to add and lets see
this link without any big details lets look these examples - Viljamas Šekspyras, Andžejus Leperis, Lešekas Mileris Jurgis Kazmirkievičius, and lets look to them once more time - Viljamas Šekspyras, Andžejus Leperis, Lešekas Mileris, Jurgis Kazmirkievičius, while looking to these examples also do not forget that contributor did not know what proper suffixes to add. Now lets analyze these words: Viljamas Šekspyras, who is not familiar with this - aka
William Shakespeare, Viljamas Šekspyras word constructed quite good I don’t see “asas”, but lets go to others Andžejus Leperis aka
Andrzej Lepper – construction quite good, another Lešekas Mileris aka
Leszek Miller, another Jurgis Kazmirkievičius aka
Jerzy Kaźmirkiewicz . Lets keep in mind these examples. Also lets analyze
this link too . Lest look to these - Pilsudskis; Šekspyras; Homeras – hmmm constructions are reasonable. But don’t forget that author is saying about
here Lets move on. Take a look
here. This is important link because contributor
Halibutt constructed his LT name – Halibuttas lets bold this name - Halibuttas. Question does anybody sees here Halibuttasas ? Nope. But lets move on, but still keeping
this. There is possibility, impossible one actually, that from contributions on Gucevičius article take page, where he quite emotional showed to probably ethnic Lithuanians how to add Lithuanian forms of –is- us- -as-, but now he suddenly forget these skills and wrote Eustachiusasas Tyškievičiusasas. Very suddenly! Lets look to his one of the newest editions
here. Construction quite good. So is it truth that he did not know proper constructions? Could be raised rhetoric question is motive why Eustachiusasas Tyškievičiusasas was writen in such way, was only due to did not know? Or is this user basing his case of good will on truth, partial truth?
M.K.
20:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt wrote: "If there is anything else I should apologize for - just let me know, I'll try to start a new chapter and forget all the past". I think you should openly apologize for mocking Lithuanian language. You probably know this, but Lithuanians are very proud of their language as much of their national identity is centered around it. So making fun of it seems inappropriate. Having witnessed most of the conflict so far, I think I know and can understand the current situation and I believe it would be best you can do. I'm only writing this since you've asked. I think the other side owes you some apology as well, but I don't expect you'll ever get it. --
Lysy
talk
21:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt's sad attitude of seing the criticism of himself as some kind of a Litnuanian (or even an international) conspiracy directed against his good name ascribes too much importance to his personality. And than Piotrus endless defence of him putting the fault on others just adds the gas to fire. Users left Wikipedia making it clear that they did so because they can't take Halibutt anymore (this is a fact). As Renata has thankfully returned, I suggest that Piotrus leaves the moderation of Lithuanian editors to her and deals sternly with his compatriots. Two recent racist remarks, one by Lysy and one by Ghirla-stalker, were recently brought to his attention by me if he needs to see where we could use his efforts. -- Irpen 21:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone still watching this page? Would any of the participants be willing to tell me whether this page did any good? -- El on ka 09:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes and no, as some editors refused to compromise an inch. I do think this page would make an excellent case study of the issues leading and reinforcing ethnic and cultural-centered wiki conflicts.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | Piotrus, stop telling in every single edit to assume good faith, don't make personal attacks. It's thoroughly annoying. Hali, good luck on further destruction of Lithuanian community on WP. Dan, you will get blocked one day. M.K, grow up (but I guess that's too much to ask for a guy). Juraune, good luck among these big shots blinded by totestrone rage... user:Renata3 | ” |
“ | And in case you wonder why... because I cannot live with such nonsense. Every Lithuanian is destined to have a problem with Halibutt, because his mission here is not to let anything Lithuanian on WP (no Lithuanian name for Vilnius or Rumsiskes, no Lithuanian name for Gucevicius, no Lithuanian poets in Anyksciu silelis, no Lithuanians in Central Lithuania). I tried to ignore, work around, argue, and plead. Nothing worked, not moving an inch. And yes, I do have the balls to say: I DO have a problem with Halibutt. But I do not the will to fight him, so let me leave. Good night, everyone. user:Renata3 (currently active again) | ” |
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Okay, as I've been sorting through various other projects of this type, and running my own project for Hungarian-Slovak disputes, it looks like the main reason that this Lithuanian project failed in the past, was the lack of a neutral admin moderator. If one could be found, would folks be interested in trying again? Or have most of the active disputes settled down? Or if you could get a neutral admin, which article "hotspots" most need supervision at the moment? Are the disputes primarily on talkpages? Or are there active revert wars going on anywhere? Thanks, -- El on ka 15:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I created an entry for you at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Directory/History_and_society#Ethnic_conflict_resolution_projects. Since there hasn't been any activity recently I entered you as Active=no; please change as appropriate. I hope that if you are indeed inactive that it's a sign that conflicts have calmed down. — Sebastian 07:21, 22 December 2008 (UTC)