Second, I would like to address a much thornier issue, that of a conflict between some Lithuanian and Polish editors, a conflict that has started few months ago and seems no sign of dissipaiting. I believe that it will not dissipate unless we sit down together and discuss it; and unlike some I believe that public discussions are much better then some secret private emails (which take forever and achieve little, IMHO). In other words, I'd would suggest the creation of a local equivalent of round table negotiations. And going further, I would like from suggestion to the actuall talk, right now, right here.
The issue, as I see it (and I am certainly not unbiased), is that for the period of past few months (so it is a relativly new phenomena), two things have happend; one good and one bad. The good one is that we (finally) got a significant influx of active contributors from Lithuania, something that I, Halibutt, Renata, and certainly many other users where waiting for (incidentally it seems there are more active users from Lithuania then from Poland, at least to me). The bad one (and this, again, is my own interpetation, which you are welcome to disagree with and contest) is that those new users seem to forget how Wikipedia works: especially about Wikipedia:Consensus (Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through polite discussion and negotiation), Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (First: a Lithuanian POV is no better or worse then Polish POV, and second: everybody has a POV, so each article needs to be negotiated upon to eliminate both the Lithuanian and Polish POVs), Wikipedia:Assume good faith (to my knowledge, there is nobody involved with Polish noticeboard who displays any kind of anti-Lithuanian behaviour, there are however some editors who think that not having a Lithuanian POV equals to that) as well as Wikipedia:No personal attacks (some users persist with accusation that others are 'anti-Lithuanian', their edits have some underlying bad faith motive, or are just generaly impolite (violation of WP:CIV)).
That said, there is much truth in the proverb: it takes two to tango. I am sure some Polish editors have on occasion behaved uncivil or otherwise broke some wiki regulations, and a few weeks ago one was banned for (in part) such behaviour (I am all sure we know who it was, and let me use the opportunity here to wave a stick and remind some that it should serve as a warning).
Now, I would go back to the root of our problem. Most of it seems (again, in my opinion) revolve around several people: User:Halibutt (22793 edits, joined 2003/11/27, the 222-most active editor, a person who wrote a good part of several Featured Articles) on one side, usually supported by me (28220 edits, joined on 2004/04/10, the 150-most active editor), and User:M.K (1696 edits, 2006/04/18), User:Lokyz (3738 edits, 2005/07/06), User:Encyclopaedia Editing Dude (934 edits, 2006/02/24), User:Juraune (737 edits, 2006/05/04) on the other side (feel free to add anybody I forgot, I honestly have no idea which side if any User:Dr. Dan supports, but I am sure he will say something about this). Now, I am not saying that quantity is always quality, and I am not saying one group is completly at fault and the other is blameless, but I want to point out that both me and Halibutt have more experience with this project then his (our?) critics, so please, please assume good faith, and that I am trying to help us all here.
Halibutt contribution to Wikipedia in the terms of content creation are undisputable much greater then any of his critics, and many of his contributions are relevant to Lithuania; if not for him the entire Lithuanian section of English Wikipedia would be much poorer. He (nor I) may not use Lithuanian spelling, and obviously we write from Polish POV and not Lithuanian, but one can hardly require that one does so. We respect Lithuanian POV, but we expect that Lithuanian editors will show the same respect for our views and that we meet in the middle. We are not Lithuanian, so we simply cannot understand some things that are obvious to you, and by no fault of our own we may occasionally say something or write something that offends you. Yet because of that some people are assuming bad faith, and by repeating this again and again, and offending Halibutt (and me and some other Polish editors to the lesser extent). Further I am seeing that such an ongoing avalanche of accusations may slowly be turning into reality (per WP:CABAL, especially There is only a cabal if you want there to be one part). After several months of hearing how 'anti-Lithuanian' one is, I see Halibutt starting to loose patience and becoming less civil (although not as uncivil as some of the people who are constantly provoking him). Please realize that everybody has their own POV, and pro-Lithuanian is just as visible and 'bad' as pro-Polish; we always must strive for consensus and a middle ground. When one of us errs and sais something that irks the other side, please assume good faith, and point out to him (perhaps on talk?) that he has erred or hurt your feelings, instead of assuming one is a rampant anti-something. And especially when you are dealing with an editor who has done much more to this project then you, and has been here much longer, seen many more conflicts (and helped resolve them), please, please, be a little less self-righteous and consider that the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, and (gasp) that perhaps the more experienced editor may actually be more experienced with things like what is NPOV and what is not.
Last but not least, let me apologize here for having written anything that you may find offensive. I want to say here that I respect Lithuania, respect Lithuanian people, respect millenium-old history of Lithuania, and I hope that we can work together, in the spirit of our common ancestors, to build something together and teach the world about our respective history, instead of repeating the mistakes of the past.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Good that you brought up the matter Piotrus. Thank you for giving me some distiction in this matter, as to where my sympathies lie in this mess too. Somehow I got branded by Molobo and SylwiaS as being anti-Polish which I'm not. Some of the most happiest times of my life were spent in Poland, and I have travelled the length and breadth of Poland over and over again. My admiration for the Polish people is genuine, and I know their hearts. On the other hand I went to communist Poland with an open mind and would have acknowledged its "superiority" to another form of government, if it deserved such acknowledgement. It does not, and I have opposed any weasleing pretending that this is not the case. This has probably clouded my edits and participation lately. Now to the Lithuanian issue. I have made Lithuania a part of my academic life and travels too. Poland 75%, Lithuania 25%. But I understand the Lithuanian people's valiant stand against persecution and oppression, and admire it too. I understand their history and culture as well. I resent it being bullied and patronized. It was my perception early on in my dealings in Wikipedia, that there was "Super-Editing" going on by Polish contributors and editors in matters regarding Lithuania. I have not changed that opinion. A most simple example would be naming a small Lithuania city (one that had little historical association with Poland), in the the lead of the article in the Polish language. And then arguing about it because the town was mentioned in a children's book written in the 19th century in the Polish language. I could go on and on. My solution in solving the problem is different that your suggestion, Prokonsul, (the cooperation on a mutual article). It's too far past that. Too much damage has been done already. My solution is this. First, read meta:How to deal with Poles and apply that to your dealings with Lithuanians. Second, a moratorium on these "Super Editors" needing to meddle in the nascent and budding Lithuanian contributions to Wikipedia would be a good idea. This I'm sure would be the hardest thing for them to do. But why should it be? Should I stir up the pot and suggest that they write about and edit matters about Zulus or Portugal? Obviously the issue is too emotionally charged for the matter to be resolved other than by this moratorium. So unless there is some blatantly false and insulting attack on Poland or claim against it's integrity, I say leave it be, and leave them alone, and after sometime we can assess the entire situation differently. Here's an Olive branch being offered as a viable solution (I think others have been offered and rejected), to the cuurent problem. These are now two seperate countries that are neighbors, and seem to get along better on the international scene than they do on Wikipedia. I say "Let My People Go" , a metaphor, an old Negro spiritual. Dr. Dan 02:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Edit wars are controllable and already almost nonexistent. IMO much more time (and emotionally) wasting are these "circular" discussions, as someone (be it Lithuanian, or Pole) tries to bash his own POV over others (never mind how many of them), (pretending?) not to hear any arguments form other side. That’s why I have told earlier, that I will not participate at any of the votes in Wikipedia until things do change.
As for this issue - for certain amount of time personally I was trying to avoid Halibutt as much as possible (even stopped my work on certain historical articles and persons) to avoid clashes. I don't know maybe that's bad chemistry, or bad temper of both of us. Although after few times being shut up, and told that I'm ignorant by few abrupt "rewordings", I felt like I was bullied ad lost my temper. Now Piotrus says that there were more of people who behave the same way. Doesn't this show that there is a problem with certain persons? I do not want to blame anyone or say someone is such or that – just sometimes it does not work. Maybe it is spoiled by bad beginning? I still do try to avoid few other editors (and in this I do succeed much more). So much of emotions.
As for suggestions - there is strong urge to establish some firm procedures, which can help avoid such misunderstandings and clashes in the future. But for that we have to choose what we're doing - encyclopedia or some fictional literature composed of someone beliefs (sometimes even insulting).
One of my emotional and intellectual anointment is this outrageous usage of Google books as I do have master degree in History, during my studies I had to learn one basic thing: there are reliable and non reliable sources. To trust any source you need to read the whole book (document, article, whatever) and evaluate it. Any citations out of context are an absolute no no. Any quantitive evaluations are rather disputable. Any research based on original documents, rather than synthetic work (i.e. compilation) is much more reliable. Any "contemporary" documents and terms are to be treated in contemporary context. And so on.
And one more thing, quite common sin amongst non professionals dealing in history - evaluating different things in nowadays context (for example most common mistake is - wast majority of Ruthenians in GDL, and small minority of Lithuanians - without having any contemporary data, and a conclusion - Rutehnians were predominant. This one conclusion is quite easy to deny, suggesting to take a look at the map of 16th century cities infrastructure in GDL and density of population).
And here (I mean Wikipedia) I did came to a different world, where everything is based on POV's, beliefs and open hearted and emotional "argumentation" "ad hominem", and again google books and what annoys me even more - google hits and google fights serves to all logical arguments be dismissed as irrelevant.. And this is emotionally tiring, demotivating and absolutely unproductive. If these are the rules of the game to stay, I'll think about finding another activity to spend my spare time (sometimes I feel, like someone is aiming for that).
And the last thing - I'm strongly against baning, excluding or otherwise exiling anyone. This would not solve anything, and to some extent would even make it worse. Just simple change of tone and a little bit more patience by some editors would be sincerely welcome.-- Lokyz 08:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Just so my very difficult proposition of a moratorium is not missunderstood, a self imposed moratorium would cool things down. That would be better than the kind of "moratorium" Molobo is going through. And like Lokyz, I'm against such censorship. Yes, let me go on record, much as I personally had lots of issues with Molobo, He should not have been banned! Maybe a 30 day moratorium could be tried instead of a longer period. The strife is, and has become a very thorny issue, as P.P. has called it. A larger type of "cooldown" is needed before there is a real "meltdown" here. Think about it. As for there being some uniqueness in Lithuania's and Poland's shared history, requiring some "super editting" or the requirement of a "modus vivendi" between them on WK, that's way overblown. Some of the Polish editors could spend time repairing similarily poor relations with Russian and German and other editors, along a similar vein during the proposed hiatus. Dr. Dan 13:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
While discussion and finding the solution is much welcome, but coming here and indirectly accusing some editors of cabal behavior, praising Halibutt`s and Piotrus deeds and even indirectly suggesting to shut up, because they “are” how “good” they; sorry but I cant believe about good faith from this. And let remind you: this is Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania not the Wikipedia:WikiProject Halibutt nor Wikipedia:WikiProject Piotrus, try to find suitable location in different place. M.K. 16:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Back to business. If my moratoriun proposal is not acceptable, then I agree to Prokonsul Piotrus' (or P.P. for short) proposal to work on something else together. I also agree with user:Encyclopaedia Editing Dude's (E.E.D. for short) suggestion to do it on the Ethnic composition of Central Lithuania for starters. It would be a good place to find a "modus vivendi", and test the sincerity of P.P.'s proposal. Personally, I have never had a problem with P.P., or Balcer, or Lysy, and usually mediate my related concerns through them. Sure, we've "had it out", once in awhile, but we smooth things out amongst ourselves. It's others, IMHO, that will need to look at this "thorny issue" from a different perspective. Dr. Dan 03:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest that he's too busy writing defenses for sockpuppets, but that would get me into trouble, so I won't. Seriously, now is the time to finish this one way or another with everyone laying their cards out on the table. If my style is too blunt, too bad. Moratorium is going to be a real option real soon, if we don't. It's maybe the best restraining order, possible under the circumstances. Dr. Dan 03:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Some sort of The Airing of Grievances talk page might be useful I think. Few Ghosts of Past Edits are still around. So let all Grievances out and Festivus miracle might come upon us. Those who not wish to involve in nondenominational practices for religious reasons, might want to try some Serenity now! stuff.
The Airing of Grievances should be adressed here ↓ and not here ↑ Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 17:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the following may shed some light on part of our problem: " In Lithuania, there is a tradition of demonizing the Poles", plus some very negative stereotypes about Poles trying to destroy Lithuanian culture. I wonder if some of our discutants here are not affected by this stereotype?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Look, I am sick and tired of the same s^%t repeating again, again, and again in many different forms:
See a problem? Renata 02:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
And that's what I'm proposing, the gist of a possible resolution to the problem. If the temporary proposition of mine is acceptable, we would all have to work out the specifics. Others might want to ram their propositions down everyone else's throat, I would prefer to work it out together. Dr. Dan 01:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
How about a bit different approach instead ? How about a little more mutual empathy in the spirit of Polish-Lithuanian collaboration project instead of wasting time and nerves on POV pushing ? -- Lysy talk 07:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
May I add my two cents? Piotrus, we've discussed that and I would like to repeat that interethnic bad blood would be best avoided if the problem users are restrained by their compatriots. That requires, of course, the compatriots to put aside the considerations that certain behaviors, while not necessarily nice, is better than nothing because it advances the right POV. So, let it go a little and maybe more. You remember I've been telling you once that not blocking Molobo by yourself was the major lapse in your admin judgement. He was instead used as a battering ram in contentious Polish-X articles (where X= Russian, Germany, Lithuania, etc) and dealing with his activity was a major headache for all the neighbors. (I am not saying he is a bad guy, he just has strong views and convictions that he has to advance them). Please note, that Russian and Ukrainian editors, that sometimes guilty of the excesses are often moderated by their compatriots. For comparison, I suggest checking the block log of Nixer (actually, also a nice guy) for who was blocking/unblocking him with the same log of Molobo.
Now, of course, we all understand who everyone is talking about here as it was prophesied with humor and wisdom by our common friend. Our friend is no Molobo. He does not ever need to be blocked. But you, as the most active Polish editor, should try moderating your friend when he steps over the line before others jump in. I am not that familiar with the Lithuanian community yet. But I guess among them there are also more passionate and more moderate editors. If we all try making sure our friends do not cross the lines, we will all be better off.
One more example, if Zvin ever shows up, I hope Lithuanian community will curb him before Piotrus and Halibutt.
Isn't it a reasonable suggestion? -- Irpen 09:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
P.P., I've discussed my impression that you are not an unbiased referee before. You have admitted as much in this recent dicussion (that you are not unbiased). So why do you continually act as Halibutt's mouthpiece in these matters. Can't he speak for himself without the ventriloquist act? I've also told you that you should have gotten more involved with the Molobo matter, because whereas Halibutt can handle himself, Molobo would have profited from your help. Hope this is not offensive. Dr. Dan 01:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I support Irpen's position on the benefits of self-moderation within community. However comparing Halibutt (even without mentioning his name) to Zivinbudas seems on the extreme side. -- Lysy talk 05:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Nobody can solve all the questions at the same time. I think, the problem of alternative geographical names was very actual for Lithuanian side for long time. We all know that users from Polish side tried to put names in Polish language to articles from the category of towns and cities of Lithuania. They'd said their argumentation, why they did this way. But some Lithuanian users protested this, considering such information irrelevant. I considered it irrelevant in many cases too. Just imagine many stubs of towns with the only information: the town was Polish. If information of such kind were put, everybody would consider it irrelevant, but putting alternative names in Polish are almost equivalent to that in many cases. Some cases were not so bad, when the article is longer and Polish alternative appears not the only information about the town or when town really has the majority of Poles . But we have to avoid irrelevances. It's not only in the name of Lithuanian self-respect (we can forget about it if a need is evident, and we often are forced to do that), but in the name of objectivness of information, that we present to readers, that very often deal nothing with Polish - Lithuanian relations and just want to know something.
Not to be a chatterer, i suggest to solve this, making some kind of agreement, which i called treaty here (perhaps too formally, but the term isn't the main here). My suggestion is:
Sides of the treaty agree, that:
Considering possible future discussions in the frame of this treaty, sides of the treaty agree that:
( Linas Lituanus 19:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC))
Please, don't insert any text to the text of the "treaty" above. Do copyediting or criticizing with a copy of this text, please.( L_L_)
Linas, I appreciate your attempt. I'll not comment it for now, but would like to ask you to take a look at a similar attempt in the meantime (well, not a "treaty" ;-) but a WP guideline) at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), which is still under construction, and its talk page as well. What do you say ? -- Lysy talk 20:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of very abstract conventions, that try to encompass the whole, but often skip a particular. We deal with a problem here. The problem serves a reason for this agreement.
The problem itself consists of what can be called insufficient information without a clear reason. Say, somebody have put an alternative geographical name in Hindi to the lead and, assume, the name isn't an original invention but is really used. What would a reader think, having found the name , which is written in an alphabet unknown for him? I think his conclusions may be following:
Or something similar.
Everybody would agree, that it isn't the best way to inform readers. Is it a problem, when such a way is practiced? Surely. Linas Lituanus 15:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Linas, I also appreciate your effort, but I think that Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) is more thought-out (dozens of people have polished it over the number of months). Further, I don't agree - or don't understand - with some of your points. What do you mean by 'Forms of alternative geographical names, that are put in the lead of an article, shouldn't confront with usage of geographical names in English'? Why are we basing the naming on the need for original research (point 1) instead of the use in academic sources (as per WP:V and WP:RS)? And last but not least, what makes Lithuania case different from virtually every other case on Wikipedia? With the exception of capitals, other names are often used, and that includes Lithuanian names in Polish, Belarusian or Latvian cities. See my question at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Lithuania#Naming_of_towns, which deals not so much with conflict resolution but which asks why Lithuania case differs from all others.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
In the point 2 of the preamble, i mean that no any other writing systems than Latin alphabet should be used in the lead (except when derivation of the title is explained). Many of us often repeat that they defend a right of readers to know alternative names, that might be found in English sources. But they get a result, when ethnic groups use the lead for their self-advertizing. I vote here for English words (including originaly Polish, Lithuanian etc. forms in Latin alphabet, which are accepted in English) against unknown combinations of symbols. My example before is pointed among other to the same, what isn't so unclear. Linas Lituanus 18:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Second, I would like to address a much thornier issue, that of a conflict between some Lithuanian and Polish editors, a conflict that has started few months ago and seems no sign of dissipaiting. I believe that it will not dissipate unless we sit down together and discuss it; and unlike some I believe that public discussions are much better then some secret private emails (which take forever and achieve little, IMHO). In other words, I'd would suggest the creation of a local equivalent of round table negotiations. And going further, I would like from suggestion to the actuall talk, right now, right here.
The issue, as I see it (and I am certainly not unbiased), is that for the period of past few months (so it is a relativly new phenomena), two things have happend; one good and one bad. The good one is that we (finally) got a significant influx of active contributors from Lithuania, something that I, Halibutt, Renata, and certainly many other users where waiting for (incidentally it seems there are more active users from Lithuania then from Poland, at least to me). The bad one (and this, again, is my own interpetation, which you are welcome to disagree with and contest) is that those new users seem to forget how Wikipedia works: especially about Wikipedia:Consensus (Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through polite discussion and negotiation), Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (First: a Lithuanian POV is no better or worse then Polish POV, and second: everybody has a POV, so each article needs to be negotiated upon to eliminate both the Lithuanian and Polish POVs), Wikipedia:Assume good faith (to my knowledge, there is nobody involved with Polish noticeboard who displays any kind of anti-Lithuanian behaviour, there are however some editors who think that not having a Lithuanian POV equals to that) as well as Wikipedia:No personal attacks (some users persist with accusation that others are 'anti-Lithuanian', their edits have some underlying bad faith motive, or are just generaly impolite (violation of WP:CIV)).
That said, there is much truth in the proverb: it takes two to tango. I am sure some Polish editors have on occasion behaved uncivil or otherwise broke some wiki regulations, and a few weeks ago one was banned for (in part) such behaviour (I am all sure we know who it was, and let me use the opportunity here to wave a stick and remind some that it should serve as a warning).
Now, I would go back to the root of our problem. Most of it seems (again, in my opinion) revolve around several people: User:Halibutt (22793 edits, joined 2003/11/27, the 222-most active editor, a person who wrote a good part of several Featured Articles) on one side, usually supported by me (28220 edits, joined on 2004/04/10, the 150-most active editor), and User:M.K (1696 edits, 2006/04/18), User:Lokyz (3738 edits, 2005/07/06), User:Encyclopaedia Editing Dude (934 edits, 2006/02/24), User:Juraune (737 edits, 2006/05/04) on the other side (feel free to add anybody I forgot, I honestly have no idea which side if any User:Dr. Dan supports, but I am sure he will say something about this). Now, I am not saying that quantity is always quality, and I am not saying one group is completly at fault and the other is blameless, but I want to point out that both me and Halibutt have more experience with this project then his (our?) critics, so please, please assume good faith, and that I am trying to help us all here.
Halibutt contribution to Wikipedia in the terms of content creation are undisputable much greater then any of his critics, and many of his contributions are relevant to Lithuania; if not for him the entire Lithuanian section of English Wikipedia would be much poorer. He (nor I) may not use Lithuanian spelling, and obviously we write from Polish POV and not Lithuanian, but one can hardly require that one does so. We respect Lithuanian POV, but we expect that Lithuanian editors will show the same respect for our views and that we meet in the middle. We are not Lithuanian, so we simply cannot understand some things that are obvious to you, and by no fault of our own we may occasionally say something or write something that offends you. Yet because of that some people are assuming bad faith, and by repeating this again and again, and offending Halibutt (and me and some other Polish editors to the lesser extent). Further I am seeing that such an ongoing avalanche of accusations may slowly be turning into reality (per WP:CABAL, especially There is only a cabal if you want there to be one part). After several months of hearing how 'anti-Lithuanian' one is, I see Halibutt starting to loose patience and becoming less civil (although not as uncivil as some of the people who are constantly provoking him). Please realize that everybody has their own POV, and pro-Lithuanian is just as visible and 'bad' as pro-Polish; we always must strive for consensus and a middle ground. When one of us errs and sais something that irks the other side, please assume good faith, and point out to him (perhaps on talk?) that he has erred or hurt your feelings, instead of assuming one is a rampant anti-something. And especially when you are dealing with an editor who has done much more to this project then you, and has been here much longer, seen many more conflicts (and helped resolve them), please, please, be a little less self-righteous and consider that the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, and (gasp) that perhaps the more experienced editor may actually be more experienced with things like what is NPOV and what is not.
Last but not least, let me apologize here for having written anything that you may find offensive. I want to say here that I respect Lithuania, respect Lithuanian people, respect millenium-old history of Lithuania, and I hope that we can work together, in the spirit of our common ancestors, to build something together and teach the world about our respective history, instead of repeating the mistakes of the past.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Good that you brought up the matter Piotrus. Thank you for giving me some distiction in this matter, as to where my sympathies lie in this mess too. Somehow I got branded by Molobo and SylwiaS as being anti-Polish which I'm not. Some of the most happiest times of my life were spent in Poland, and I have travelled the length and breadth of Poland over and over again. My admiration for the Polish people is genuine, and I know their hearts. On the other hand I went to communist Poland with an open mind and would have acknowledged its "superiority" to another form of government, if it deserved such acknowledgement. It does not, and I have opposed any weasleing pretending that this is not the case. This has probably clouded my edits and participation lately. Now to the Lithuanian issue. I have made Lithuania a part of my academic life and travels too. Poland 75%, Lithuania 25%. But I understand the Lithuanian people's valiant stand against persecution and oppression, and admire it too. I understand their history and culture as well. I resent it being bullied and patronized. It was my perception early on in my dealings in Wikipedia, that there was "Super-Editing" going on by Polish contributors and editors in matters regarding Lithuania. I have not changed that opinion. A most simple example would be naming a small Lithuania city (one that had little historical association with Poland), in the the lead of the article in the Polish language. And then arguing about it because the town was mentioned in a children's book written in the 19th century in the Polish language. I could go on and on. My solution in solving the problem is different that your suggestion, Prokonsul, (the cooperation on a mutual article). It's too far past that. Too much damage has been done already. My solution is this. First, read meta:How to deal with Poles and apply that to your dealings with Lithuanians. Second, a moratorium on these "Super Editors" needing to meddle in the nascent and budding Lithuanian contributions to Wikipedia would be a good idea. This I'm sure would be the hardest thing for them to do. But why should it be? Should I stir up the pot and suggest that they write about and edit matters about Zulus or Portugal? Obviously the issue is too emotionally charged for the matter to be resolved other than by this moratorium. So unless there is some blatantly false and insulting attack on Poland or claim against it's integrity, I say leave it be, and leave them alone, and after sometime we can assess the entire situation differently. Here's an Olive branch being offered as a viable solution (I think others have been offered and rejected), to the cuurent problem. These are now two seperate countries that are neighbors, and seem to get along better on the international scene than they do on Wikipedia. I say "Let My People Go" , a metaphor, an old Negro spiritual. Dr. Dan 02:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Edit wars are controllable and already almost nonexistent. IMO much more time (and emotionally) wasting are these "circular" discussions, as someone (be it Lithuanian, or Pole) tries to bash his own POV over others (never mind how many of them), (pretending?) not to hear any arguments form other side. That’s why I have told earlier, that I will not participate at any of the votes in Wikipedia until things do change.
As for this issue - for certain amount of time personally I was trying to avoid Halibutt as much as possible (even stopped my work on certain historical articles and persons) to avoid clashes. I don't know maybe that's bad chemistry, or bad temper of both of us. Although after few times being shut up, and told that I'm ignorant by few abrupt "rewordings", I felt like I was bullied ad lost my temper. Now Piotrus says that there were more of people who behave the same way. Doesn't this show that there is a problem with certain persons? I do not want to blame anyone or say someone is such or that – just sometimes it does not work. Maybe it is spoiled by bad beginning? I still do try to avoid few other editors (and in this I do succeed much more). So much of emotions.
As for suggestions - there is strong urge to establish some firm procedures, which can help avoid such misunderstandings and clashes in the future. But for that we have to choose what we're doing - encyclopedia or some fictional literature composed of someone beliefs (sometimes even insulting).
One of my emotional and intellectual anointment is this outrageous usage of Google books as I do have master degree in History, during my studies I had to learn one basic thing: there are reliable and non reliable sources. To trust any source you need to read the whole book (document, article, whatever) and evaluate it. Any citations out of context are an absolute no no. Any quantitive evaluations are rather disputable. Any research based on original documents, rather than synthetic work (i.e. compilation) is much more reliable. Any "contemporary" documents and terms are to be treated in contemporary context. And so on.
And one more thing, quite common sin amongst non professionals dealing in history - evaluating different things in nowadays context (for example most common mistake is - wast majority of Ruthenians in GDL, and small minority of Lithuanians - without having any contemporary data, and a conclusion - Rutehnians were predominant. This one conclusion is quite easy to deny, suggesting to take a look at the map of 16th century cities infrastructure in GDL and density of population).
And here (I mean Wikipedia) I did came to a different world, where everything is based on POV's, beliefs and open hearted and emotional "argumentation" "ad hominem", and again google books and what annoys me even more - google hits and google fights serves to all logical arguments be dismissed as irrelevant.. And this is emotionally tiring, demotivating and absolutely unproductive. If these are the rules of the game to stay, I'll think about finding another activity to spend my spare time (sometimes I feel, like someone is aiming for that).
And the last thing - I'm strongly against baning, excluding or otherwise exiling anyone. This would not solve anything, and to some extent would even make it worse. Just simple change of tone and a little bit more patience by some editors would be sincerely welcome.-- Lokyz 08:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Just so my very difficult proposition of a moratorium is not missunderstood, a self imposed moratorium would cool things down. That would be better than the kind of "moratorium" Molobo is going through. And like Lokyz, I'm against such censorship. Yes, let me go on record, much as I personally had lots of issues with Molobo, He should not have been banned! Maybe a 30 day moratorium could be tried instead of a longer period. The strife is, and has become a very thorny issue, as P.P. has called it. A larger type of "cooldown" is needed before there is a real "meltdown" here. Think about it. As for there being some uniqueness in Lithuania's and Poland's shared history, requiring some "super editting" or the requirement of a "modus vivendi" between them on WK, that's way overblown. Some of the Polish editors could spend time repairing similarily poor relations with Russian and German and other editors, along a similar vein during the proposed hiatus. Dr. Dan 13:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
While discussion and finding the solution is much welcome, but coming here and indirectly accusing some editors of cabal behavior, praising Halibutt`s and Piotrus deeds and even indirectly suggesting to shut up, because they “are” how “good” they; sorry but I cant believe about good faith from this. And let remind you: this is Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania not the Wikipedia:WikiProject Halibutt nor Wikipedia:WikiProject Piotrus, try to find suitable location in different place. M.K. 16:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Back to business. If my moratoriun proposal is not acceptable, then I agree to Prokonsul Piotrus' (or P.P. for short) proposal to work on something else together. I also agree with user:Encyclopaedia Editing Dude's (E.E.D. for short) suggestion to do it on the Ethnic composition of Central Lithuania for starters. It would be a good place to find a "modus vivendi", and test the sincerity of P.P.'s proposal. Personally, I have never had a problem with P.P., or Balcer, or Lysy, and usually mediate my related concerns through them. Sure, we've "had it out", once in awhile, but we smooth things out amongst ourselves. It's others, IMHO, that will need to look at this "thorny issue" from a different perspective. Dr. Dan 03:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest that he's too busy writing defenses for sockpuppets, but that would get me into trouble, so I won't. Seriously, now is the time to finish this one way or another with everyone laying their cards out on the table. If my style is too blunt, too bad. Moratorium is going to be a real option real soon, if we don't. It's maybe the best restraining order, possible under the circumstances. Dr. Dan 03:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Some sort of The Airing of Grievances talk page might be useful I think. Few Ghosts of Past Edits are still around. So let all Grievances out and Festivus miracle might come upon us. Those who not wish to involve in nondenominational practices for religious reasons, might want to try some Serenity now! stuff.
The Airing of Grievances should be adressed here ↓ and not here ↑ Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 17:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the following may shed some light on part of our problem: " In Lithuania, there is a tradition of demonizing the Poles", plus some very negative stereotypes about Poles trying to destroy Lithuanian culture. I wonder if some of our discutants here are not affected by this stereotype?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Look, I am sick and tired of the same s^%t repeating again, again, and again in many different forms:
See a problem? Renata 02:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
And that's what I'm proposing, the gist of a possible resolution to the problem. If the temporary proposition of mine is acceptable, we would all have to work out the specifics. Others might want to ram their propositions down everyone else's throat, I would prefer to work it out together. Dr. Dan 01:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
How about a bit different approach instead ? How about a little more mutual empathy in the spirit of Polish-Lithuanian collaboration project instead of wasting time and nerves on POV pushing ? -- Lysy talk 07:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
May I add my two cents? Piotrus, we've discussed that and I would like to repeat that interethnic bad blood would be best avoided if the problem users are restrained by their compatriots. That requires, of course, the compatriots to put aside the considerations that certain behaviors, while not necessarily nice, is better than nothing because it advances the right POV. So, let it go a little and maybe more. You remember I've been telling you once that not blocking Molobo by yourself was the major lapse in your admin judgement. He was instead used as a battering ram in contentious Polish-X articles (where X= Russian, Germany, Lithuania, etc) and dealing with his activity was a major headache for all the neighbors. (I am not saying he is a bad guy, he just has strong views and convictions that he has to advance them). Please note, that Russian and Ukrainian editors, that sometimes guilty of the excesses are often moderated by their compatriots. For comparison, I suggest checking the block log of Nixer (actually, also a nice guy) for who was blocking/unblocking him with the same log of Molobo.
Now, of course, we all understand who everyone is talking about here as it was prophesied with humor and wisdom by our common friend. Our friend is no Molobo. He does not ever need to be blocked. But you, as the most active Polish editor, should try moderating your friend when he steps over the line before others jump in. I am not that familiar with the Lithuanian community yet. But I guess among them there are also more passionate and more moderate editors. If we all try making sure our friends do not cross the lines, we will all be better off.
One more example, if Zvin ever shows up, I hope Lithuanian community will curb him before Piotrus and Halibutt.
Isn't it a reasonable suggestion? -- Irpen 09:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
P.P., I've discussed my impression that you are not an unbiased referee before. You have admitted as much in this recent dicussion (that you are not unbiased). So why do you continually act as Halibutt's mouthpiece in these matters. Can't he speak for himself without the ventriloquist act? I've also told you that you should have gotten more involved with the Molobo matter, because whereas Halibutt can handle himself, Molobo would have profited from your help. Hope this is not offensive. Dr. Dan 01:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I support Irpen's position on the benefits of self-moderation within community. However comparing Halibutt (even without mentioning his name) to Zivinbudas seems on the extreme side. -- Lysy talk 05:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Nobody can solve all the questions at the same time. I think, the problem of alternative geographical names was very actual for Lithuanian side for long time. We all know that users from Polish side tried to put names in Polish language to articles from the category of towns and cities of Lithuania. They'd said their argumentation, why they did this way. But some Lithuanian users protested this, considering such information irrelevant. I considered it irrelevant in many cases too. Just imagine many stubs of towns with the only information: the town was Polish. If information of such kind were put, everybody would consider it irrelevant, but putting alternative names in Polish are almost equivalent to that in many cases. Some cases were not so bad, when the article is longer and Polish alternative appears not the only information about the town or when town really has the majority of Poles . But we have to avoid irrelevances. It's not only in the name of Lithuanian self-respect (we can forget about it if a need is evident, and we often are forced to do that), but in the name of objectivness of information, that we present to readers, that very often deal nothing with Polish - Lithuanian relations and just want to know something.
Not to be a chatterer, i suggest to solve this, making some kind of agreement, which i called treaty here (perhaps too formally, but the term isn't the main here). My suggestion is:
Sides of the treaty agree, that:
Considering possible future discussions in the frame of this treaty, sides of the treaty agree that:
( Linas Lituanus 19:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC))
Please, don't insert any text to the text of the "treaty" above. Do copyediting or criticizing with a copy of this text, please.( L_L_)
Linas, I appreciate your attempt. I'll not comment it for now, but would like to ask you to take a look at a similar attempt in the meantime (well, not a "treaty" ;-) but a WP guideline) at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), which is still under construction, and its talk page as well. What do you say ? -- Lysy talk 20:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of very abstract conventions, that try to encompass the whole, but often skip a particular. We deal with a problem here. The problem serves a reason for this agreement.
The problem itself consists of what can be called insufficient information without a clear reason. Say, somebody have put an alternative geographical name in Hindi to the lead and, assume, the name isn't an original invention but is really used. What would a reader think, having found the name , which is written in an alphabet unknown for him? I think his conclusions may be following:
Or something similar.
Everybody would agree, that it isn't the best way to inform readers. Is it a problem, when such a way is practiced? Surely. Linas Lituanus 15:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Linas, I also appreciate your effort, but I think that Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) is more thought-out (dozens of people have polished it over the number of months). Further, I don't agree - or don't understand - with some of your points. What do you mean by 'Forms of alternative geographical names, that are put in the lead of an article, shouldn't confront with usage of geographical names in English'? Why are we basing the naming on the need for original research (point 1) instead of the use in academic sources (as per WP:V and WP:RS)? And last but not least, what makes Lithuania case different from virtually every other case on Wikipedia? With the exception of capitals, other names are often used, and that includes Lithuanian names in Polish, Belarusian or Latvian cities. See my question at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Lithuania#Naming_of_towns, which deals not so much with conflict resolution but which asks why Lithuania case differs from all others.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
In the point 2 of the preamble, i mean that no any other writing systems than Latin alphabet should be used in the lead (except when derivation of the title is explained). Many of us often repeat that they defend a right of readers to know alternative names, that might be found in English sources. But they get a result, when ethnic groups use the lead for their self-advertizing. I vote here for English words (including originaly Polish, Lithuanian etc. forms in Latin alphabet, which are accepted in English) against unknown combinations of symbols. My example before is pointed among other to the same, what isn't so unclear. Linas Lituanus 18:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)