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Does anyone else think the bot section ought to be removed to a separate page? The "Suggestions" page takes ages to load every time, and I am getting really sick of the delay. I think we need to cut the page down to as small and manageable a length as possible, removing the Bot section would be the most obvious way to do it. Gatoclass ( talk) 07:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Now that I think of it, I see no reason why we need the list of admins on this page either, they could go to their own page too. It's links that seem to make pages load slowly, and that section is nothing but links. Gatoclass ( talk) 06:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
UPDATE: I just copied the current suggestions page into my sandbox and deleted the bot and admin sections, and it appears to load a LOT quicker - just like a normal page in fact! So it looks like this will be worth doing.
Also seems it will be very easy to accomplish too, because both the bot and admin sections are added or removed in their entirety by dedicated templates. So we only have to move the template to a different page and the job is done. Gatoclass ( talk) 07:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I just happened to notice that on December 29 last year EncycloPetey changed the submission criteria from this:
Try to pick articles that are original to Wikipedia (not 1911 or other data sources) and interesting to a wide audience.
to this:
The content must be original to Wikipedia, not simply taken from the 1911 Britannica or other free data sources.
AFAIK EncycloPetey had no consensus for this change, as his edit summary Being BOLD indicates.
Now the problem I have with this is that most of my ship articles are (largely) cut-and-pastes from the US Navy's PD library known as the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships. If EncycloPetey's BOLD change stands, then I will no longer be able to submit ship articles taken from DANFS - which currently incorporates about 90% of my Wiki-activity. Naturally, I'm not too keen on this idea, so I thought I would bring the issue up for discussion.
In my defence, I will say that there is far more work that goes into these articles than one might imagine - in fact, I can knock out a 1500 char article in my own words that would technically qualifty for DYK in the space of a few minutes (and, in fact, have done so numerous times in the last few weeks without submitting any of them to DYK because I don't think they are comprehensive enough). But formatting these ship articles, adding and photoshopping the pic, copyediting and wikilinking the text and so on can take hours. So from my POV, I feel I am doing more than enough work on these articles to justify their submission. But since EncycloPetey has effectively raised the question, I guess we need to discuss it. Gatoclass ( talk) 13:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
My (self-)nomination of Ralph Howell (yet another boring dead British MP) seems to have slipped between the cracks. It was selected here by Victuallers (thanks) and put in the "holding bay" here, but vapourised 6 minutes later by Maxim.
I do appreciate that a lot of work goes into updating and maintaining the DYK pages, and it is a bit late to do anything about this now, but please could people be a tiny bit more careful. (Oh, and select my other nomination - he is not an MP, at least, although he is also British and dead :)
Thanks. -- One pound ( talk) 22:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Is there a way to search the entire DYK archives for articles about Ohio that were mentioned, other than going through each of the pages by hand? Thanks for the help! §tepshep • ¡Talk to me! 01:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks!!!! §tepshep • ¡Talk to me! 21:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Does an editor like me have any recourse when I have written an article for DKY and when it is still a day or two old, and another editor completely rearranges it, puts in questionable references, and messes up the format. This person is unwilling to leave the article alone for the few days of the DYK listing, despite my explanation. My hook is completely irrelevant in the changed article. Is there any recourse for this, when the other editor will not wait for just a few days? Thanks! Mattisse( Talk) 23:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I've recently noticed an article declined with "this is not a new article, and there is no '5-fold expansion' in the past 5 days. May I suggest a 'personal sandbox' (see Wikipedia:User page#How do I create a user subpage?) for next time? Move it out whenever you think the new article is ready." Based on my experience, this is very bad suggestion, and merits a change in our rules. Why? Three reasons.
First, I have seen many articles started and forgotten in userspace; if they had been started in mainspace they would be stubs if not more, and would be copyedited and expanded by others - but left in userspaces they are just wasted time. Hence I have always discouraged use of userspace for article writing.
Second, I believe that imposing the 5-day period should not be measured 'from when the article was started or crossed the 5x expanded from stub threshold' but from when the editor(s) finally stopped working on it. If an editor takes more than five days to create an article he thinks is worth of DYKing, what's wrong with that? We would all benefit from DYKing a larger article than a rushed job in progress. Not to mention that the current 'work as long as you want in the userspace, clock starts ticking in mainspace' is already bending the time rule (why should the clock tick only in mainspace??).
Third, often the users who take long to create their articles are newcomers. Those should be encouraged and rewarded, so their experience on Wiki is positive and they are motivated to stick around and contribute more. Several times I have advised them to nominate their works to DYK (or nominated it myself) only to have it discarded because 'it was created/expanded over five days ago' (although in all such cases the last edit, signifying 'end of work' by the creator/expander, was shortly before the article was nominated). Needlessly, this has led to user's disappointment, if not with Wikipedia than at the very least with the DYK process.
Bottom line is that while I and many others can write a DYK or two in a day from scratch, many others cannot. They should not be penalized; if they create a DYKable article over a week or two that's still an article worth featuring on our main page.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
(od) It would certainly be an improvement to widen the eligibility criteria for DYK to include any article in mainspace. The slogan should be changed from "from Wikipedia's newest articles" to "from Wikipedia's best articles". In revised form, DYK would still continue to be used to reward editors who create new articles or expand existing ones, but it could also be used to reward a wider range of editors whose significant expansions or creations fell through the DYK cracks and were never noticed at the time. - Neparis ( talk) 02:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think DYK would improve through broadening criteria, relaxing research, or expanding mainspace time. As Ruhrfisch said, WP:IAR can handle case-by-case articles that miss the mark but appear deserving nonetheless. While marketing DYK would increase visibility, probably leading to an increase in qualifying submissions, there's no guarantee that DYK quality would improve. However, we have a captive audience with newcomers through WP:WC and if we could add DYK to most WP:WT, time would test newcomer participation within the project. Here's a suggested sentence: "By the way, check out the requirements for how to get your newly created articles to appear on the Wikipedia Main Page's Did You Know? section, or ask me on my Talk page." Rosiestep ( talk) 19:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
In order to increase knowledge of DYKs and its rules, what about some kind of a template - notifications for discarded DYK: along the rules of 'your article X was not chosen for DYK because of the following problems: lack of citations, nominated too late, etc. However we are very appreciative of your work and look forward to your future contributions, which we hope will be up to DYK standards (link).' While this should be optional to experienced editors, new ones may find it useful - it would teach them our rules and policies and show we do appreciate their content enough to review it for DYK.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's consider placing a template on an editor's talk page asap after the hook arrives. The template would include a "thank you", re-iteration of a couple of qualifiers (Please doublecheck that the required in-line citation for the hook is the correct citation), a link to DYK standards (Here's the complete list of standards.), and a prominent check-back reminder (Don't forget to watch for possible hook comments as responding to reasonable objections...) -- Rosiestep ( talk) 15:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
So, do we have anything that's ready for a test drive? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
What is Davina Ingrams, 18th Baroness Darcy de Knayth doing in the DYK ? It's a stub and it's unsourced, it can't be there. Gothbag ( talk) 19:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Are there any plans to do some April Fools DYK entries as in years past? I have an article I want to write with a decent and deceptive hook (involving a trail along the Grand Canyon being in Pennsylvania). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I've thought about blarneying up the DYK section for St. Pats. Would History of Irish in Louisville and History of Irish in Indianapolis be good titles, or could I do with Louisville Irish and Indianapolis Irish?-- Bedford 06:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm about half way through expanding Lóegaire mac Néill - "a great king, fierce and pagan, an emperor of the barbarians" (said Muirchú moccu Mactheni) - and will turn in a DYK for that mentioning St Pat tomorrow or Friday. I can probably also manage a DYK hook for Lugaid mac Lóegairi (a stretch) and Vita tripartita Sancti Patricii as expanding those wouldn't take long. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I did a trifecta: History of the Irish in Louisville, Kentucky Irish American, and History of the Irish in Indianapolis. Someone in the futre could easily create other city articles, especially for Boston.-- Bedford 00:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Wow, all these articles are terrific! Thanks for the great work! :) Agne Cheese/ Wine 18:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I like
... the 'green' touch. We should use this more often for other occasions, and to remember them, create a page where the color/symbols are stashed.--
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
talk
20:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Right now all three of my Irish articles are slated for he next updated. Two are Louisville related, and the other is only 110 miles away. Would that be too I-65-centric?-- Bedford 21:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Is featured on DYK when it shouldn't be - the article has been around for years and it has only been expanded from 13kB to 19kB over the course of the past few days. Shouldn't it be removed? Qwghlm ( talk) 01:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The current DYK includes "...that the Edinburgh Phrenological Society started their own journal to promote phrenology in 1824..." Since the society is a singular noun (not a plural noun), that should be revised to "...that the Edinburgh Phrenological Society started its own journal to promote phrenology in 1824..." -- Orlady ( talk) 02:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with BorgQueen ( talk · contribs), the rules are just a guide, and in the case of finding acceptable WP:DYK hooks from a bit late that haven't gotten a chance, WP:IAR and allow someone's work to get some credit. Cirt ( talk) 12:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Nominations ahead of time? I don't follow. I also think that this is getting a bit into a back-and-forth, and we should both take a step back and allow for input from other editors in the community on this issue. Cirt ( talk) 13:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I like "Expiring" (so long as it is only the one heading, w/out a billion other types of special headings) but that seems like a good fix. Cirt ( talk) 13:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
In my view it's perfectly valid to take hooks from a day or two ahead if there is not enough variety in the hooks that are on the verge of expiry. But hooks closer to expiry should always be given preference where possible.
BTW, I don't know why Anonymous D. is talking about "a huge backlog", I don't see one, looks to me like we are pretty much up to date ATM. Gatoclass ( talk) 18:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
No more expired header, I have changed it to expiring to reflect the fact that noms from this section are frequently chosen, and the fact that we often have to resort to an "Expiring header". This circus has gone on long enough. I was also thinking that all the noms that have now hard and fast expired can be simply removed from the page altogether. Thoughts? -- Anonymous Dissident Talk 13:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed this a few times recently, with more than one regular here. It seems to me polite to wait until someone else selects them. Espresso Addict ( talk) 18:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
It's also not discouraged to post a kind note here on this page, if you have a hook of yours that is about to expire that you would like considered quickly. Cirt ( talk) 10:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I share a similar view as Jay Henry that it is very important to avoid selecting your own hooks. While I have no doubt that the few times that Gato selected his own hooks, he did so with the utmost of intentions and with no bias--it is still not the best example we want to give to other editors who may not have the same level of discernment that Gato has. A new editor or one with more bias judgment may see an admin or DYK regular select their own hooks and think it is fine for them to do the same. Is that really a cycle we want to get into? Agne Cheese/ Wine 17:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
For clarification, are we talking about moving hooks to the next update? In my last round of doing DYKs, I did move some of my own to the Main Page, but they were already moved to next update by someone else. howcheng { chat} 19:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to suggest a change in the way content for the DYK section is created. Bottom line, we should be selecting DYK items from articles that have recently been improved to GA or FA class. We have a lot of content now (to say the least) but still have an enormous amount of work to do improving that content. DYK would be a perfect stimulus to get editors working to improve existing articles. There are 10,000 articles in each of these categories:
We need to drive people into those categories with the same carrot that we currently use to get people to create articles. But we could do wonders filling in DYK from articles that have been recently vastly improved (without insisting that they be increased in size). RxS ( talk) 18:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I have to say I am not terribly keen on this idea. On reflection, it seems to me that we already have incentives for improving existing articles in our criteria - which is the x5 expansion rule. I guess we could relax that a bit if there's consensus to do so, but I can't see that just tackling "articles that need cleanup" or "articles lacking sources" is activity worthy of a DYK. Gatoclass ( talk) 05:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the idea that the encyclopedia is nearing completion in terms of number of articles. It might be true in some fields (computing/mathematics, US politicians, perhaps) but there are huge gaps in all the areas in which I am interested. Every time I create a new article, I find five new notable topics on which we are lacking articles.
DYK simply can't be the only mechanism of rewarding all articles that are substantially improved on the encyclopedia every day -- it features only around twenty or thirty articles daily, and I'd hope that the total number improved was greater than that by far!
I'd be strongly opposed to adding in new featured articles that did not otherwise meet our guidelines. The fact that Featured Article of the Day is failing to keep up with the new featured articles tends to suggest to me that the featured article slot should be updated more frequently, not that DYK should take FAs! The same goes for good articles; the fact that they are not recognised on the main page is an anachronism that should be fixed, but not by adding them to DYK. Both good and featured articles have their own reward systems independent of main-page appearances -- the status they give to the editor, the fact that they can appear on featured portals &c&c. Also, readers don't necessarily have the time to peruse a feature-length article. When people click on DYK hooks, I suspect they're expecting a nice short morsel, for easy consumption in, say, a coffee break.
I'd also be strongly opposed to allowing improved but non-expanded articles into the DYK slot. Adding references, copy editing, minor improvements &c are the bread and butter work of the encyclopedia, and should not need rewards. It's also very hard to evaluate such contributions comparatively.
I do think, however, that there is some merit in allowing expansions that don't quite meet fivefold. The guidelines used to include stubs or redirects which had been expanded fivefold, and this was changed a while back to any article thus expanded. Perhaps non-stubs (say >2000 characters of text as we count it) could be held to a lower expansion threshold? Espresso Addict ( talk) 18:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that widening the DYK criteria just a little would not be harmful in any way in terms of the existing purposes of DYK, and would be beneficial by giving a powerful motivation for more editors to take part in DYK but across a cautiously slightly wider class of articles. How much wider is a good question. I see some interesting ideas emerging in the discussion. Let's see how this develops. It would be good to hear from a wider pool of editors too. - Neparis ( talk) 20:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
After following this conversation the last few days, I think there is a lot of merit to RxS and Lar's idea about encouraging more improvement and to an extent DYK does that with the expansion criteria. As a regular DYK reader, I have consistently found the DYKs from expanded articles to more interesting reads than some of the new articles. The topic normally has a broader appeal and the article is overall in a better and more developed shape than a "semi-stub" with 1500-2000 bytes of text and maybe one reference to cover the DYK hook. While we should never discourage new content creation, I think we should be more proactive in encouraging expansion (which by it nature normally leads to clean up and wikifying of the original article). After taking articles like Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon to "five fold expansion" DYKs, I can personally attest to how difficult it is when the original article has a large byte size. Even in the case of an article like Chardonnay when most of those bytes were "dead weight" of unsourced OR and POV, the writer is at a disadvantage because they have to "5x expand" upon content that they are going to be discarding anyways. To that I extent, I propose a gliding scale to the expansion criteria-- (bytes based on pure article text)
Additionally, we should tighten up the requirements for all articles (both new creation and expansion) to be fully referenced. I think we also need to incorporate more discernment into selecting hooks because they are truly good articles with interesting hooks. The current culture of DYK has given the impression that it is almost an entitlement to have your article featured if you meet the base level requirements. While we certainly don't want to alienate content creators, I think we need to "raise the bar" and increase the level of "competition" between hooks with the knowledge that it is not a guarantee that your hook is going to be featured. While it may have the negative consequence of reducing the number of hooks we get, it may also have the more fruitful benefit of increasing the quality of the hooks we receive with the relaxed expansion criteria bringing in more broadly appealing subjects and core articles that need to be improved. Agne Cheese/ Wine 20:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Without getting too specific, I'm generally in favor of expanding DYK to include quality improvements to those articles most in need of repair. GA and FA achievement doesn't normally count as "most in need of repair" - these articles were usually above average even before the GA/FA drive. I suggest a practical rule for improvements - the hook should be about a part of the article that was improved. If the improvement is merely sourcing then it needs to be sourced. If the improvement is making notability clear, the hook will be the notability. If the only improvement is axing trivia, then this won't work - but maybe axing trivia wouldn't be the best "improvement" to feature given the perpetual divide over what is trivia. If there is no hook in the improvement to the article, then it doesn't belong in DYK. GRBerry 22:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This article, currently on the main page as the first DYK feature, contained both plagiarized text and an elementary maths error in the hook. It also had numerous format problems. I've fixed most of these these issues now, and overall am delighted that this important book now has an article on Wikipedia, but I am a little disappointed that it should have been accepted for the main page in the state it was in. Before. After. -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 13:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I have previously asked everyone to be extra careful of simple errors when using new hooks, because they might not have all the usual reviews yet. But what happened today emphasized that a hook doesn't have to be at the top of the page to be new. Please glance at the time stamp, and notice if it was only contributed a few hours ago, before blindly copying a typo-laden hook on to the next update page. Art LaPella ( talk) 04:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
DYK is backlogged. Several articles that were approved and are 6 days old are not in DYK. When will this ever stop? I'm an Editor of the wiki citation needed 00:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is it remotely notable that someone has produced a copy of Sir Ralph Fitzherbert's armor in Second Life. Second Life is a user generated mess, where people can create as much shit as they want. The hook is about as relevant as saying ...that Ralph Fitzherbert has an article on Wikipedia. The citation, isn't a citation, it's just a link to where you can purchase the 3d model for "Linden Dollars". The fact that a copy of his armour was made by a nobody and placed on sale within an MMO is totally irrelevant to the life and death of Ralph Fitzherbert, and doesn't even belong in the article, let alone on Wikipedia's main page. 86.0.127.75 ( talk) 19:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Are we misleading our DYK readers if the DYK article name is different than the article it links to via pipette? By example, in today's DYK group, the article Muscatatuck County Park was pipetted as "Muscatatuck State Park". I understood the reason for that title change, as, in fact, the park used to be known by the later name, and a state park might appear more interesting of a read than a county park. While there can always be an exception to a rule, I think there's value in spotlighting the article's actual name, in bold, for all DYK entries. The issue isn't addressed at Wikipedia:Did you know#The hook section; maybe it should be. Your thoughts? -- Rosiestep ( talk) 03:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm... You’re right! There are good reasons for article name pipe links within DYK. Enjoy a wikicookie on me, team. -- Rosiestep ( talk) 17:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I expect this has been discussed before, but would it be very difficult to adapt the DYK award template and paste in the actual DYK phrase into the template posted in editors' talk pages? It would sure be a service to the editors, and would make their talk pages far more interesting to other readers. It is kinda boring to see multiple DYK award templates in their talk pages, without getting to see what was so interesting. The DYK would keep on working to drive traffic to the subject articles, too, if they were out there still.
For example, instead of just the DYK mentioning Bolton Hall and the DYK date at User talk:Cbl62#Bolton Hall, it would be nice if the template also included: DYK "... that Bolton Hall, the community center for a Utopian community formed in 1913 in the foothills snorth of Los Angeles, was later used as a jail?"
I am sure it would take a little more time, but the value added is pretty high, in my view. doncram ( talk) 04:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Dr pda/prosesize.js counts the characters in readable prose. It doesn't count section headers or lists. Anyone object to linking it in the instructions section? Gimmetrow 19:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm confused. The DYK for Elsie Mackay was shown as approved on the morning of June 1, but by the evening seems to have disappeared without trace, (a bit like Elsie herself), not in DYK, not in archive, no dyk bannner in the discussion page. Can somebody please explain? (The DYK hook is shown below.) Thanks Autodidactyl ( talk) 20:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again Autodidactyl ( talk) 20:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
{{
Verified}} - yields -
Verified.
Cirt (
talk)
08:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In the current hook:
"... that Leurospondylus Ultimus was so named as it was originally thought to be the last occurrence of a plesiosaur? "
The capital U in Ultimus needs to be lowercased. All scientific names have the second, or specific, part in lower case letters. For that matter, it is lowercased in the actual article. Could someone please fix this quickly? Rufous-crowned Sparrow ( talk) 18:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Would this not look better if the whole of parish church of St. Mary was emboldened, rather than just St. Mary ? - after all, the article is about the church not the saint. (I know I did it originally, but I'm having second thoughts...) Ghmyrtle ( talk) 12:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem with the most recent archives of Wikipedia:Recent additions. Some of the entries in Wikipedia:Recent additions 215 seem to be included in the next three ( 216, 217 and 218). I'm not sure how this happened, or how it should be sorted out. -- Theramin ( talk) 21:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
User:Keeper76 made a post here a while ago not to accept nominations from me, User:RyRy5. He has said here that he is let okay with it going through DYK nominations now in fact it is checked carefully and shown to be legitimate. Comments? -- RyRy5 ( talk) 20:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I realise that when an article that had been around for a while can qualify to get into DYK if the article is expanded five fold. My concern is that there are many entries which are unsourced and probable single person's POV or CK. Most of the times there are details that are totally unencyclopedic. So the question is, if such entries are amended and cleaned up, do they still quality for DYK? In matter of fact the already existing details are removed and new infomations are added. Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 08:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I know you are all really busy here so sorry for taking up your time. Most of the articles I have been writing for Wikipedia are fairly technical and I was looking for some guidance on what is considered suitable. The last article I submitted for DYK was Composite image filters which I thought was just borderline acceptable (and you did use it). The (unfinished) article I am currently working on, for instance, is User:Spinningspark/Prototype filter which I would say is not suitable for DYK although I am sure I could contrive a semi-interesting hook if required. Would someone care to comment on whether I am drawing the line in about the right place? SpinningSpark 19:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
We may need to do one to get rid of all the accumulating US hooks. Better to get rid of them all in one shot than have a preponderance of US hooks in update after update IMO. Gatoclass ( talk) 15:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I noticed there have been a lot of posts in the DYK section on Scientology. Recently 'Battlefield Earth' was a featured article. Is Wikipedia’s homepage being used to educate the public about scientology? I thought DYK articles were supposed to be thoughtful and engaging. The fact that L Ron Hubbard wrote a score for a movie is neither. The scientology facts are not interesting at all, and seem to be reoccurring. The other facts presented are usually very intriguing. When there are so many facinating things about the world I don't know, why would wikipedia waste valuable educational space for garbage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.165.48.146 ( talk) 17:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Agree with 199.71.174.100 ( talk · contribs), Royalbroil ( talk · contribs) and Nil Einne ( talk · contribs). Cirt ( talk) 02:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Because I'm a little annoyed by all the ineligible nominations we get, I've written a guide to DYK. You can find it in my sandbox. I was wondering what you guys think and whether we should link it somewhere asking new users to read it before nominating articles. And BTW, feel free to edit it, of course.-- Carabinieri ( talk) 01:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I have a quick question about an article we recently expanded and the fivefold expansion rules. Maressa Orzack started out at about 600 characters long, but 6000 bytes. We've now expanded it to about 6,000 characters, but only 12,000 bytes. Does this count as expansion, as the visible character count has increased dramatically and the article is now ten times larger? Many thanks for any advice you can offer, Gazimoff Write Read 22:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Folks, this is gettin' ridiculous. I have had to add three missing updates to the archive page today alone - half a dozen at least in the last couple of days. What is so hard about remembering to update the previous set of hooks to recent additions at the same time you post the new update to the front page?
Just for the record, here's how I go about posting a new update:
It's really very easy, only takes a minute to do the whole thing, so I just can't understand why people aren't doing it. If you make it part of your routine, you can't go wrong. I might have to post the above instructions somewhere to inform updaters who are not so familiar with the process. Gatoclass ( talk) 13:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Currently at T:TDYK#June 19 we have the following nomination. I can't quite recall anything like this in my time watching the page, although I've not watched it nearly as closely as some.
We should discuss this. The issue is not censorship, but rather sound editorial judgment and purview. First, is this befitting of a quality encyclopedia? Second, does the DYK project have the right to put this sort of material and image on the main page without seeking broader community input? There is precedent here as well: although Jenna Jameson is a featured article, it's been determined that this article would not be appropriate for the main page FA. Wikipedia is not censored, but this doesn't mean that it's therefore acceptable to put any topic whatsoever on the main page (as opposed to having the article on Wikipedia if someone seeks it out). I don't feel terribly strongly, but I think this is the sort of thing that should be discussed in calm and rational tones, so if there's a hysterical reaction we have something intelligent as a response. -- JayHenry ( talk) 00:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
We've talked about datestamping the updates in the archive for a while now, but nobody's done anything so I've left some simple instructions at the top of the archive page for doing so. Also left a suggestion that the archive page should itself be archived every Friday (which makes a total of about 28 updates or 200 hooks per archive). Because there are no instructions, no-one ever seems to archive the page and I think the last archive I did had about 2,000 hooks in it! Gatoclass ( talk) 07:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Please change the hook for
Lothian, Borders & Angus Co-operative Society in
Template:Did you know to:
Reason is that although older than Scotmid and Clydebank, I am not 100% convinced that the 1863
The Co-operative Group it didn't absorb any very old Scottish societies in the 20th century. (See also
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cooperatives#Main page.) --
Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (
Talk)
11:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, and sorry for the garbled English in my request. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 15:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
From a post above, I just found Wikipedia article traffic statistics. Is it possible to add such stats to the DYK notice? Instead of
the notice would look something like:
I was surprised to learn that such an article received so many hits and now am more motivated to list articles at DYK. I think adding the stats to the DYK posts would help out. The DYK notice on the article talk page can contain similar stats. Bebestbe ( talk) 22:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Can an article be used for a DYK more than once, if it qualifies under both the new article and five-fold rules? JKBrooks85 ( talk) 04:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
When are articles selected for DYK appearances on the main page? I don't understand this page, [5]. Is there a list of the next articles to appear? -- Blechnic ( talk) 04:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC) I see a lot that I could spend time looking at, but which ones should I bother with? I've studied famine economics, a requirement for Third World agricultural researchers, and mostly the Indian ones are the best researched from an economics perspective, and I've worked in an herbarium, I've probably read enough about middle Medieval popes to look at that one, I know a comparative lot about Sino-Nigerian relations because of the impact of the oil-wealth on Niger basin vegetation (maybe outside of my area, but better studied than further west), I know the North American coastal Indians somewhat, and I know who Curtis is, I've studied coffee production, I do know about Middle Eastern nature preserves and species, I read medical literature for a living and can check these articles. I don't understand how the selection process works, and what is going on on this page. I only want to spend time checking articles that will be on the front page--why not give people a chance to correct the plagiarisms and learn along the way, then reward them with their article being properly on the main page? Establish for the long run, plagiarized articles don't belong on the front page, and teach editors to do it correctly? But I have to understand what is going on. I would rather continue with African agriculture, but I am willing to check some of these. Which ones?!?! -- Blechnic ( talk) 05:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
If you're only going to "bother with" checking articles where you know something about the subject, go find something else to do (Update: Apparently you have). I used to be a newspaper copyeditor. When fresh copy is shoved in front of you, you can't say "This isn't my area". You get what you get. You figure out how to verify it, or they give the job to someone else who says they can.
In a typical tour through DYK, I will look at the articles most urgently in need of verification, that are either expiring or close to it. I will review them until I either reach the top of a particular date's new articles, or (more commonly) I get about half a dozen good hooks, enough to fill an entire new update if needed. As I've said elsewhere, I don't mark them as verified if the source is an offline book or something I cannot otherwise personally review. Those are usually taken on good faith when they're about to expire. Perhaps this creates plagiarism problems; as I've said I would really prefer that people submit a quote from the source. Not that that can't be faked, but it makes more work for a plagiarist and would certainly reduce the number of such submissions. If I do see that it's copied at some length from the source, I say so in the comment. If I find the hook is more or less writing a check the source can't cash, I say so, or modify the hook appropriately. If it's too short, the article lacks inline references or an unreliable source is used, it gets that little yellow circle with the X. Ditto if the hook fact isn't stated explicitly in the article. If it uses a non-English shource from a language I haven't really studied, I either try to figure the language out if it's related to one I'm familiar with, try on online translator or just ask for someone who is familiar with, say, Norwegian or Mandarin to read it. But I check anything that comes my way. We ask for cited references; anyone should be able to check them regardless of familiarity with the subject. Daniel Case ( talk) 13:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully I can complement Bencherlite's response with some brief answers. I sympathise, since the list of suggestions on T:TDYK does not work like any other Wikipedia page I know of.
Did you know? | |
---|---|
Introduction and rules | |
Introduction | WP:DYK |
General discussion | WT:DYK |
Guidelines | WP:DYKCRIT |
Reviewer instructions | WP:DYKRI |
Nominations | |
Nominate an article | WP:DYKCNN |
Awaiting approval | WP:DYKN |
Approved | WP:DYKNA |
April 1 hooks | WP:DYKAPRIL |
Holding area | WP:SOHA |
Preparation | |
Preps and queues | T:DYK/Q |
Prepper instructions | WP:DYKPBI |
Admin instructions | WP:DYKAI |
Main Page errors | WP:ERRORS |
History | |
Statistics | WP:DYKSTATS |
Archived sets | WP:DYKA |
Just for fun | |
Monthly wraps | WP:DYKW |
Awards | WP:DYKAWARDS |
Userboxes | WP:DYKUBX |
Hall of Fame | WP:DYK/HoF |
List of users ... | |
... by nominations | WP:DYKNC |
... by promotions | WP:DYKPC |
Administrative | |
Scripts and bots | WP:DYKSB |
On the Main Page | |
Main Page errors | WP:ERRORS |
To ping the DYK admins | {{ DYK admins}} |
Hope that helps you and fellow newcomers. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 09:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The other article on the next in line template, on Marion Jorgensen, has these lines copied and pasted directly from this source. [6]
They had two sons, Donald Bren, chairman of The Irvine Company in Newport Beach, CA and Peter Bren, a senior partner with KBS Investors of New York City...
Bundles For Britain evolved into the United States Naval Aide Auxiliary.
The Jorgensens were among the social elite of Los Angeles.
After serving with distinction on the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, Mrs. Jorgensen was honored … with election to Life Director.
-- Blechnic ( talk) 05:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Regarding Frank Leslie Walcott, the sentence was absolutely not taken word-for-word from the source. The source reads "...the principal organizer of the labour movement of Barbados and a major figure in stimulating mass participation in politics." while the article reads "...the principal organizer of the labor movement of Barbados and a major figure in stimulating participation in the nation's political process." Could this be reworded a bit more? Sure, and I'll do that when I'm finished here, but I greatly resent being accused of plagiarism and not even being notified by my accuser so that I might defend myself. Furthermore, the journal from which the cricket info is taken from is available on Google Scholar, though unless I'm mistaken a source's online availability is completely irrelevant. faithless (speak) 05:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
It appears that user Blechnic has retired from the project after I threatened to take him to AN/I for breaches of wp:civ. So I guess it's business as usual at DYK for the time being. However, I do think the issue of plagiarism on DYK (and let's face it, on the project as a whole) is legitimate, and I'd really like to get hold of some free plagiarism software if anyone knows of any. Gatoclass ( talk) 08:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 |
Does anyone else think the bot section ought to be removed to a separate page? The "Suggestions" page takes ages to load every time, and I am getting really sick of the delay. I think we need to cut the page down to as small and manageable a length as possible, removing the Bot section would be the most obvious way to do it. Gatoclass ( talk) 07:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Now that I think of it, I see no reason why we need the list of admins on this page either, they could go to their own page too. It's links that seem to make pages load slowly, and that section is nothing but links. Gatoclass ( talk) 06:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
UPDATE: I just copied the current suggestions page into my sandbox and deleted the bot and admin sections, and it appears to load a LOT quicker - just like a normal page in fact! So it looks like this will be worth doing.
Also seems it will be very easy to accomplish too, because both the bot and admin sections are added or removed in their entirety by dedicated templates. So we only have to move the template to a different page and the job is done. Gatoclass ( talk) 07:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I just happened to notice that on December 29 last year EncycloPetey changed the submission criteria from this:
Try to pick articles that are original to Wikipedia (not 1911 or other data sources) and interesting to a wide audience.
to this:
The content must be original to Wikipedia, not simply taken from the 1911 Britannica or other free data sources.
AFAIK EncycloPetey had no consensus for this change, as his edit summary Being BOLD indicates.
Now the problem I have with this is that most of my ship articles are (largely) cut-and-pastes from the US Navy's PD library known as the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships. If EncycloPetey's BOLD change stands, then I will no longer be able to submit ship articles taken from DANFS - which currently incorporates about 90% of my Wiki-activity. Naturally, I'm not too keen on this idea, so I thought I would bring the issue up for discussion.
In my defence, I will say that there is far more work that goes into these articles than one might imagine - in fact, I can knock out a 1500 char article in my own words that would technically qualifty for DYK in the space of a few minutes (and, in fact, have done so numerous times in the last few weeks without submitting any of them to DYK because I don't think they are comprehensive enough). But formatting these ship articles, adding and photoshopping the pic, copyediting and wikilinking the text and so on can take hours. So from my POV, I feel I am doing more than enough work on these articles to justify their submission. But since EncycloPetey has effectively raised the question, I guess we need to discuss it. Gatoclass ( talk) 13:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
My (self-)nomination of Ralph Howell (yet another boring dead British MP) seems to have slipped between the cracks. It was selected here by Victuallers (thanks) and put in the "holding bay" here, but vapourised 6 minutes later by Maxim.
I do appreciate that a lot of work goes into updating and maintaining the DYK pages, and it is a bit late to do anything about this now, but please could people be a tiny bit more careful. (Oh, and select my other nomination - he is not an MP, at least, although he is also British and dead :)
Thanks. -- One pound ( talk) 22:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Is there a way to search the entire DYK archives for articles about Ohio that were mentioned, other than going through each of the pages by hand? Thanks for the help! §tepshep • ¡Talk to me! 01:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks!!!! §tepshep • ¡Talk to me! 21:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Does an editor like me have any recourse when I have written an article for DKY and when it is still a day or two old, and another editor completely rearranges it, puts in questionable references, and messes up the format. This person is unwilling to leave the article alone for the few days of the DYK listing, despite my explanation. My hook is completely irrelevant in the changed article. Is there any recourse for this, when the other editor will not wait for just a few days? Thanks! Mattisse( Talk) 23:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I've recently noticed an article declined with "this is not a new article, and there is no '5-fold expansion' in the past 5 days. May I suggest a 'personal sandbox' (see Wikipedia:User page#How do I create a user subpage?) for next time? Move it out whenever you think the new article is ready." Based on my experience, this is very bad suggestion, and merits a change in our rules. Why? Three reasons.
First, I have seen many articles started and forgotten in userspace; if they had been started in mainspace they would be stubs if not more, and would be copyedited and expanded by others - but left in userspaces they are just wasted time. Hence I have always discouraged use of userspace for article writing.
Second, I believe that imposing the 5-day period should not be measured 'from when the article was started or crossed the 5x expanded from stub threshold' but from when the editor(s) finally stopped working on it. If an editor takes more than five days to create an article he thinks is worth of DYKing, what's wrong with that? We would all benefit from DYKing a larger article than a rushed job in progress. Not to mention that the current 'work as long as you want in the userspace, clock starts ticking in mainspace' is already bending the time rule (why should the clock tick only in mainspace??).
Third, often the users who take long to create their articles are newcomers. Those should be encouraged and rewarded, so their experience on Wiki is positive and they are motivated to stick around and contribute more. Several times I have advised them to nominate their works to DYK (or nominated it myself) only to have it discarded because 'it was created/expanded over five days ago' (although in all such cases the last edit, signifying 'end of work' by the creator/expander, was shortly before the article was nominated). Needlessly, this has led to user's disappointment, if not with Wikipedia than at the very least with the DYK process.
Bottom line is that while I and many others can write a DYK or two in a day from scratch, many others cannot. They should not be penalized; if they create a DYKable article over a week or two that's still an article worth featuring on our main page.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
(od) It would certainly be an improvement to widen the eligibility criteria for DYK to include any article in mainspace. The slogan should be changed from "from Wikipedia's newest articles" to "from Wikipedia's best articles". In revised form, DYK would still continue to be used to reward editors who create new articles or expand existing ones, but it could also be used to reward a wider range of editors whose significant expansions or creations fell through the DYK cracks and were never noticed at the time. - Neparis ( talk) 02:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think DYK would improve through broadening criteria, relaxing research, or expanding mainspace time. As Ruhrfisch said, WP:IAR can handle case-by-case articles that miss the mark but appear deserving nonetheless. While marketing DYK would increase visibility, probably leading to an increase in qualifying submissions, there's no guarantee that DYK quality would improve. However, we have a captive audience with newcomers through WP:WC and if we could add DYK to most WP:WT, time would test newcomer participation within the project. Here's a suggested sentence: "By the way, check out the requirements for how to get your newly created articles to appear on the Wikipedia Main Page's Did You Know? section, or ask me on my Talk page." Rosiestep ( talk) 19:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
In order to increase knowledge of DYKs and its rules, what about some kind of a template - notifications for discarded DYK: along the rules of 'your article X was not chosen for DYK because of the following problems: lack of citations, nominated too late, etc. However we are very appreciative of your work and look forward to your future contributions, which we hope will be up to DYK standards (link).' While this should be optional to experienced editors, new ones may find it useful - it would teach them our rules and policies and show we do appreciate their content enough to review it for DYK.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's consider placing a template on an editor's talk page asap after the hook arrives. The template would include a "thank you", re-iteration of a couple of qualifiers (Please doublecheck that the required in-line citation for the hook is the correct citation), a link to DYK standards (Here's the complete list of standards.), and a prominent check-back reminder (Don't forget to watch for possible hook comments as responding to reasonable objections...) -- Rosiestep ( talk) 15:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
So, do we have anything that's ready for a test drive? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
What is Davina Ingrams, 18th Baroness Darcy de Knayth doing in the DYK ? It's a stub and it's unsourced, it can't be there. Gothbag ( talk) 19:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Are there any plans to do some April Fools DYK entries as in years past? I have an article I want to write with a decent and deceptive hook (involving a trail along the Grand Canyon being in Pennsylvania). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I've thought about blarneying up the DYK section for St. Pats. Would History of Irish in Louisville and History of Irish in Indianapolis be good titles, or could I do with Louisville Irish and Indianapolis Irish?-- Bedford 06:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm about half way through expanding Lóegaire mac Néill - "a great king, fierce and pagan, an emperor of the barbarians" (said Muirchú moccu Mactheni) - and will turn in a DYK for that mentioning St Pat tomorrow or Friday. I can probably also manage a DYK hook for Lugaid mac Lóegairi (a stretch) and Vita tripartita Sancti Patricii as expanding those wouldn't take long. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I did a trifecta: History of the Irish in Louisville, Kentucky Irish American, and History of the Irish in Indianapolis. Someone in the futre could easily create other city articles, especially for Boston.-- Bedford 00:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Wow, all these articles are terrific! Thanks for the great work! :) Agne Cheese/ Wine 18:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I like
... the 'green' touch. We should use this more often for other occasions, and to remember them, create a page where the color/symbols are stashed.--
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
talk
20:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Right now all three of my Irish articles are slated for he next updated. Two are Louisville related, and the other is only 110 miles away. Would that be too I-65-centric?-- Bedford 21:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Is featured on DYK when it shouldn't be - the article has been around for years and it has only been expanded from 13kB to 19kB over the course of the past few days. Shouldn't it be removed? Qwghlm ( talk) 01:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The current DYK includes "...that the Edinburgh Phrenological Society started their own journal to promote phrenology in 1824..." Since the society is a singular noun (not a plural noun), that should be revised to "...that the Edinburgh Phrenological Society started its own journal to promote phrenology in 1824..." -- Orlady ( talk) 02:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with BorgQueen ( talk · contribs), the rules are just a guide, and in the case of finding acceptable WP:DYK hooks from a bit late that haven't gotten a chance, WP:IAR and allow someone's work to get some credit. Cirt ( talk) 12:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Nominations ahead of time? I don't follow. I also think that this is getting a bit into a back-and-forth, and we should both take a step back and allow for input from other editors in the community on this issue. Cirt ( talk) 13:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I like "Expiring" (so long as it is only the one heading, w/out a billion other types of special headings) but that seems like a good fix. Cirt ( talk) 13:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
In my view it's perfectly valid to take hooks from a day or two ahead if there is not enough variety in the hooks that are on the verge of expiry. But hooks closer to expiry should always be given preference where possible.
BTW, I don't know why Anonymous D. is talking about "a huge backlog", I don't see one, looks to me like we are pretty much up to date ATM. Gatoclass ( talk) 18:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
No more expired header, I have changed it to expiring to reflect the fact that noms from this section are frequently chosen, and the fact that we often have to resort to an "Expiring header". This circus has gone on long enough. I was also thinking that all the noms that have now hard and fast expired can be simply removed from the page altogether. Thoughts? -- Anonymous Dissident Talk 13:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed this a few times recently, with more than one regular here. It seems to me polite to wait until someone else selects them. Espresso Addict ( talk) 18:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
It's also not discouraged to post a kind note here on this page, if you have a hook of yours that is about to expire that you would like considered quickly. Cirt ( talk) 10:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I share a similar view as Jay Henry that it is very important to avoid selecting your own hooks. While I have no doubt that the few times that Gato selected his own hooks, he did so with the utmost of intentions and with no bias--it is still not the best example we want to give to other editors who may not have the same level of discernment that Gato has. A new editor or one with more bias judgment may see an admin or DYK regular select their own hooks and think it is fine for them to do the same. Is that really a cycle we want to get into? Agne Cheese/ Wine 17:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
For clarification, are we talking about moving hooks to the next update? In my last round of doing DYKs, I did move some of my own to the Main Page, but they were already moved to next update by someone else. howcheng { chat} 19:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to suggest a change in the way content for the DYK section is created. Bottom line, we should be selecting DYK items from articles that have recently been improved to GA or FA class. We have a lot of content now (to say the least) but still have an enormous amount of work to do improving that content. DYK would be a perfect stimulus to get editors working to improve existing articles. There are 10,000 articles in each of these categories:
We need to drive people into those categories with the same carrot that we currently use to get people to create articles. But we could do wonders filling in DYK from articles that have been recently vastly improved (without insisting that they be increased in size). RxS ( talk) 18:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I have to say I am not terribly keen on this idea. On reflection, it seems to me that we already have incentives for improving existing articles in our criteria - which is the x5 expansion rule. I guess we could relax that a bit if there's consensus to do so, but I can't see that just tackling "articles that need cleanup" or "articles lacking sources" is activity worthy of a DYK. Gatoclass ( talk) 05:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the idea that the encyclopedia is nearing completion in terms of number of articles. It might be true in some fields (computing/mathematics, US politicians, perhaps) but there are huge gaps in all the areas in which I am interested. Every time I create a new article, I find five new notable topics on which we are lacking articles.
DYK simply can't be the only mechanism of rewarding all articles that are substantially improved on the encyclopedia every day -- it features only around twenty or thirty articles daily, and I'd hope that the total number improved was greater than that by far!
I'd be strongly opposed to adding in new featured articles that did not otherwise meet our guidelines. The fact that Featured Article of the Day is failing to keep up with the new featured articles tends to suggest to me that the featured article slot should be updated more frequently, not that DYK should take FAs! The same goes for good articles; the fact that they are not recognised on the main page is an anachronism that should be fixed, but not by adding them to DYK. Both good and featured articles have their own reward systems independent of main-page appearances -- the status they give to the editor, the fact that they can appear on featured portals &c&c. Also, readers don't necessarily have the time to peruse a feature-length article. When people click on DYK hooks, I suspect they're expecting a nice short morsel, for easy consumption in, say, a coffee break.
I'd also be strongly opposed to allowing improved but non-expanded articles into the DYK slot. Adding references, copy editing, minor improvements &c are the bread and butter work of the encyclopedia, and should not need rewards. It's also very hard to evaluate such contributions comparatively.
I do think, however, that there is some merit in allowing expansions that don't quite meet fivefold. The guidelines used to include stubs or redirects which had been expanded fivefold, and this was changed a while back to any article thus expanded. Perhaps non-stubs (say >2000 characters of text as we count it) could be held to a lower expansion threshold? Espresso Addict ( talk) 18:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that widening the DYK criteria just a little would not be harmful in any way in terms of the existing purposes of DYK, and would be beneficial by giving a powerful motivation for more editors to take part in DYK but across a cautiously slightly wider class of articles. How much wider is a good question. I see some interesting ideas emerging in the discussion. Let's see how this develops. It would be good to hear from a wider pool of editors too. - Neparis ( talk) 20:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
After following this conversation the last few days, I think there is a lot of merit to RxS and Lar's idea about encouraging more improvement and to an extent DYK does that with the expansion criteria. As a regular DYK reader, I have consistently found the DYKs from expanded articles to more interesting reads than some of the new articles. The topic normally has a broader appeal and the article is overall in a better and more developed shape than a "semi-stub" with 1500-2000 bytes of text and maybe one reference to cover the DYK hook. While we should never discourage new content creation, I think we should be more proactive in encouraging expansion (which by it nature normally leads to clean up and wikifying of the original article). After taking articles like Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon to "five fold expansion" DYKs, I can personally attest to how difficult it is when the original article has a large byte size. Even in the case of an article like Chardonnay when most of those bytes were "dead weight" of unsourced OR and POV, the writer is at a disadvantage because they have to "5x expand" upon content that they are going to be discarding anyways. To that I extent, I propose a gliding scale to the expansion criteria-- (bytes based on pure article text)
Additionally, we should tighten up the requirements for all articles (both new creation and expansion) to be fully referenced. I think we also need to incorporate more discernment into selecting hooks because they are truly good articles with interesting hooks. The current culture of DYK has given the impression that it is almost an entitlement to have your article featured if you meet the base level requirements. While we certainly don't want to alienate content creators, I think we need to "raise the bar" and increase the level of "competition" between hooks with the knowledge that it is not a guarantee that your hook is going to be featured. While it may have the negative consequence of reducing the number of hooks we get, it may also have the more fruitful benefit of increasing the quality of the hooks we receive with the relaxed expansion criteria bringing in more broadly appealing subjects and core articles that need to be improved. Agne Cheese/ Wine 20:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Without getting too specific, I'm generally in favor of expanding DYK to include quality improvements to those articles most in need of repair. GA and FA achievement doesn't normally count as "most in need of repair" - these articles were usually above average even before the GA/FA drive. I suggest a practical rule for improvements - the hook should be about a part of the article that was improved. If the improvement is merely sourcing then it needs to be sourced. If the improvement is making notability clear, the hook will be the notability. If the only improvement is axing trivia, then this won't work - but maybe axing trivia wouldn't be the best "improvement" to feature given the perpetual divide over what is trivia. If there is no hook in the improvement to the article, then it doesn't belong in DYK. GRBerry 22:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This article, currently on the main page as the first DYK feature, contained both plagiarized text and an elementary maths error in the hook. It also had numerous format problems. I've fixed most of these these issues now, and overall am delighted that this important book now has an article on Wikipedia, but I am a little disappointed that it should have been accepted for the main page in the state it was in. Before. After. -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 13:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I have previously asked everyone to be extra careful of simple errors when using new hooks, because they might not have all the usual reviews yet. But what happened today emphasized that a hook doesn't have to be at the top of the page to be new. Please glance at the time stamp, and notice if it was only contributed a few hours ago, before blindly copying a typo-laden hook on to the next update page. Art LaPella ( talk) 04:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
DYK is backlogged. Several articles that were approved and are 6 days old are not in DYK. When will this ever stop? I'm an Editor of the wiki citation needed 00:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is it remotely notable that someone has produced a copy of Sir Ralph Fitzherbert's armor in Second Life. Second Life is a user generated mess, where people can create as much shit as they want. The hook is about as relevant as saying ...that Ralph Fitzherbert has an article on Wikipedia. The citation, isn't a citation, it's just a link to where you can purchase the 3d model for "Linden Dollars". The fact that a copy of his armour was made by a nobody and placed on sale within an MMO is totally irrelevant to the life and death of Ralph Fitzherbert, and doesn't even belong in the article, let alone on Wikipedia's main page. 86.0.127.75 ( talk) 19:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Are we misleading our DYK readers if the DYK article name is different than the article it links to via pipette? By example, in today's DYK group, the article Muscatatuck County Park was pipetted as "Muscatatuck State Park". I understood the reason for that title change, as, in fact, the park used to be known by the later name, and a state park might appear more interesting of a read than a county park. While there can always be an exception to a rule, I think there's value in spotlighting the article's actual name, in bold, for all DYK entries. The issue isn't addressed at Wikipedia:Did you know#The hook section; maybe it should be. Your thoughts? -- Rosiestep ( talk) 03:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm... You’re right! There are good reasons for article name pipe links within DYK. Enjoy a wikicookie on me, team. -- Rosiestep ( talk) 17:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I expect this has been discussed before, but would it be very difficult to adapt the DYK award template and paste in the actual DYK phrase into the template posted in editors' talk pages? It would sure be a service to the editors, and would make their talk pages far more interesting to other readers. It is kinda boring to see multiple DYK award templates in their talk pages, without getting to see what was so interesting. The DYK would keep on working to drive traffic to the subject articles, too, if they were out there still.
For example, instead of just the DYK mentioning Bolton Hall and the DYK date at User talk:Cbl62#Bolton Hall, it would be nice if the template also included: DYK "... that Bolton Hall, the community center for a Utopian community formed in 1913 in the foothills snorth of Los Angeles, was later used as a jail?"
I am sure it would take a little more time, but the value added is pretty high, in my view. doncram ( talk) 04:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Dr pda/prosesize.js counts the characters in readable prose. It doesn't count section headers or lists. Anyone object to linking it in the instructions section? Gimmetrow 19:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm confused. The DYK for Elsie Mackay was shown as approved on the morning of June 1, but by the evening seems to have disappeared without trace, (a bit like Elsie herself), not in DYK, not in archive, no dyk bannner in the discussion page. Can somebody please explain? (The DYK hook is shown below.) Thanks Autodidactyl ( talk) 20:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again Autodidactyl ( talk) 20:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
{{
Verified}} - yields -
Verified.
Cirt (
talk)
08:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In the current hook:
"... that Leurospondylus Ultimus was so named as it was originally thought to be the last occurrence of a plesiosaur? "
The capital U in Ultimus needs to be lowercased. All scientific names have the second, or specific, part in lower case letters. For that matter, it is lowercased in the actual article. Could someone please fix this quickly? Rufous-crowned Sparrow ( talk) 18:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Would this not look better if the whole of parish church of St. Mary was emboldened, rather than just St. Mary ? - after all, the article is about the church not the saint. (I know I did it originally, but I'm having second thoughts...) Ghmyrtle ( talk) 12:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem with the most recent archives of Wikipedia:Recent additions. Some of the entries in Wikipedia:Recent additions 215 seem to be included in the next three ( 216, 217 and 218). I'm not sure how this happened, or how it should be sorted out. -- Theramin ( talk) 21:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
User:Keeper76 made a post here a while ago not to accept nominations from me, User:RyRy5. He has said here that he is let okay with it going through DYK nominations now in fact it is checked carefully and shown to be legitimate. Comments? -- RyRy5 ( talk) 20:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I realise that when an article that had been around for a while can qualify to get into DYK if the article is expanded five fold. My concern is that there are many entries which are unsourced and probable single person's POV or CK. Most of the times there are details that are totally unencyclopedic. So the question is, if such entries are amended and cleaned up, do they still quality for DYK? In matter of fact the already existing details are removed and new infomations are added. Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 08:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I know you are all really busy here so sorry for taking up your time. Most of the articles I have been writing for Wikipedia are fairly technical and I was looking for some guidance on what is considered suitable. The last article I submitted for DYK was Composite image filters which I thought was just borderline acceptable (and you did use it). The (unfinished) article I am currently working on, for instance, is User:Spinningspark/Prototype filter which I would say is not suitable for DYK although I am sure I could contrive a semi-interesting hook if required. Would someone care to comment on whether I am drawing the line in about the right place? SpinningSpark 19:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
We may need to do one to get rid of all the accumulating US hooks. Better to get rid of them all in one shot than have a preponderance of US hooks in update after update IMO. Gatoclass ( talk) 15:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I noticed there have been a lot of posts in the DYK section on Scientology. Recently 'Battlefield Earth' was a featured article. Is Wikipedia’s homepage being used to educate the public about scientology? I thought DYK articles were supposed to be thoughtful and engaging. The fact that L Ron Hubbard wrote a score for a movie is neither. The scientology facts are not interesting at all, and seem to be reoccurring. The other facts presented are usually very intriguing. When there are so many facinating things about the world I don't know, why would wikipedia waste valuable educational space for garbage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.165.48.146 ( talk) 17:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Agree with 199.71.174.100 ( talk · contribs), Royalbroil ( talk · contribs) and Nil Einne ( talk · contribs). Cirt ( talk) 02:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Because I'm a little annoyed by all the ineligible nominations we get, I've written a guide to DYK. You can find it in my sandbox. I was wondering what you guys think and whether we should link it somewhere asking new users to read it before nominating articles. And BTW, feel free to edit it, of course.-- Carabinieri ( talk) 01:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I have a quick question about an article we recently expanded and the fivefold expansion rules. Maressa Orzack started out at about 600 characters long, but 6000 bytes. We've now expanded it to about 6,000 characters, but only 12,000 bytes. Does this count as expansion, as the visible character count has increased dramatically and the article is now ten times larger? Many thanks for any advice you can offer, Gazimoff Write Read 22:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Folks, this is gettin' ridiculous. I have had to add three missing updates to the archive page today alone - half a dozen at least in the last couple of days. What is so hard about remembering to update the previous set of hooks to recent additions at the same time you post the new update to the front page?
Just for the record, here's how I go about posting a new update:
It's really very easy, only takes a minute to do the whole thing, so I just can't understand why people aren't doing it. If you make it part of your routine, you can't go wrong. I might have to post the above instructions somewhere to inform updaters who are not so familiar with the process. Gatoclass ( talk) 13:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Currently at T:TDYK#June 19 we have the following nomination. I can't quite recall anything like this in my time watching the page, although I've not watched it nearly as closely as some.
We should discuss this. The issue is not censorship, but rather sound editorial judgment and purview. First, is this befitting of a quality encyclopedia? Second, does the DYK project have the right to put this sort of material and image on the main page without seeking broader community input? There is precedent here as well: although Jenna Jameson is a featured article, it's been determined that this article would not be appropriate for the main page FA. Wikipedia is not censored, but this doesn't mean that it's therefore acceptable to put any topic whatsoever on the main page (as opposed to having the article on Wikipedia if someone seeks it out). I don't feel terribly strongly, but I think this is the sort of thing that should be discussed in calm and rational tones, so if there's a hysterical reaction we have something intelligent as a response. -- JayHenry ( talk) 00:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
We've talked about datestamping the updates in the archive for a while now, but nobody's done anything so I've left some simple instructions at the top of the archive page for doing so. Also left a suggestion that the archive page should itself be archived every Friday (which makes a total of about 28 updates or 200 hooks per archive). Because there are no instructions, no-one ever seems to archive the page and I think the last archive I did had about 2,000 hooks in it! Gatoclass ( talk) 07:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Please change the hook for
Lothian, Borders & Angus Co-operative Society in
Template:Did you know to:
Reason is that although older than Scotmid and Clydebank, I am not 100% convinced that the 1863
The Co-operative Group it didn't absorb any very old Scottish societies in the 20th century. (See also
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cooperatives#Main page.) --
Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (
Talk)
11:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, and sorry for the garbled English in my request. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 15:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
From a post above, I just found Wikipedia article traffic statistics. Is it possible to add such stats to the DYK notice? Instead of
the notice would look something like:
I was surprised to learn that such an article received so many hits and now am more motivated to list articles at DYK. I think adding the stats to the DYK posts would help out. The DYK notice on the article talk page can contain similar stats. Bebestbe ( talk) 22:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Can an article be used for a DYK more than once, if it qualifies under both the new article and five-fold rules? JKBrooks85 ( talk) 04:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
When are articles selected for DYK appearances on the main page? I don't understand this page, [5]. Is there a list of the next articles to appear? -- Blechnic ( talk) 04:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC) I see a lot that I could spend time looking at, but which ones should I bother with? I've studied famine economics, a requirement for Third World agricultural researchers, and mostly the Indian ones are the best researched from an economics perspective, and I've worked in an herbarium, I've probably read enough about middle Medieval popes to look at that one, I know a comparative lot about Sino-Nigerian relations because of the impact of the oil-wealth on Niger basin vegetation (maybe outside of my area, but better studied than further west), I know the North American coastal Indians somewhat, and I know who Curtis is, I've studied coffee production, I do know about Middle Eastern nature preserves and species, I read medical literature for a living and can check these articles. I don't understand how the selection process works, and what is going on on this page. I only want to spend time checking articles that will be on the front page--why not give people a chance to correct the plagiarisms and learn along the way, then reward them with their article being properly on the main page? Establish for the long run, plagiarized articles don't belong on the front page, and teach editors to do it correctly? But I have to understand what is going on. I would rather continue with African agriculture, but I am willing to check some of these. Which ones?!?! -- Blechnic ( talk) 05:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
If you're only going to "bother with" checking articles where you know something about the subject, go find something else to do (Update: Apparently you have). I used to be a newspaper copyeditor. When fresh copy is shoved in front of you, you can't say "This isn't my area". You get what you get. You figure out how to verify it, or they give the job to someone else who says they can.
In a typical tour through DYK, I will look at the articles most urgently in need of verification, that are either expiring or close to it. I will review them until I either reach the top of a particular date's new articles, or (more commonly) I get about half a dozen good hooks, enough to fill an entire new update if needed. As I've said elsewhere, I don't mark them as verified if the source is an offline book or something I cannot otherwise personally review. Those are usually taken on good faith when they're about to expire. Perhaps this creates plagiarism problems; as I've said I would really prefer that people submit a quote from the source. Not that that can't be faked, but it makes more work for a plagiarist and would certainly reduce the number of such submissions. If I do see that it's copied at some length from the source, I say so in the comment. If I find the hook is more or less writing a check the source can't cash, I say so, or modify the hook appropriately. If it's too short, the article lacks inline references or an unreliable source is used, it gets that little yellow circle with the X. Ditto if the hook fact isn't stated explicitly in the article. If it uses a non-English shource from a language I haven't really studied, I either try to figure the language out if it's related to one I'm familiar with, try on online translator or just ask for someone who is familiar with, say, Norwegian or Mandarin to read it. But I check anything that comes my way. We ask for cited references; anyone should be able to check them regardless of familiarity with the subject. Daniel Case ( talk) 13:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully I can complement Bencherlite's response with some brief answers. I sympathise, since the list of suggestions on T:TDYK does not work like any other Wikipedia page I know of.
Did you know? | |
---|---|
Introduction and rules | |
Introduction | WP:DYK |
General discussion | WT:DYK |
Guidelines | WP:DYKCRIT |
Reviewer instructions | WP:DYKRI |
Nominations | |
Nominate an article | WP:DYKCNN |
Awaiting approval | WP:DYKN |
Approved | WP:DYKNA |
April 1 hooks | WP:DYKAPRIL |
Holding area | WP:SOHA |
Preparation | |
Preps and queues | T:DYK/Q |
Prepper instructions | WP:DYKPBI |
Admin instructions | WP:DYKAI |
Main Page errors | WP:ERRORS |
History | |
Statistics | WP:DYKSTATS |
Archived sets | WP:DYKA |
Just for fun | |
Monthly wraps | WP:DYKW |
Awards | WP:DYKAWARDS |
Userboxes | WP:DYKUBX |
Hall of Fame | WP:DYK/HoF |
List of users ... | |
... by nominations | WP:DYKNC |
... by promotions | WP:DYKPC |
Administrative | |
Scripts and bots | WP:DYKSB |
On the Main Page | |
Main Page errors | WP:ERRORS |
To ping the DYK admins | {{ DYK admins}} |
Hope that helps you and fellow newcomers. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 09:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The other article on the next in line template, on Marion Jorgensen, has these lines copied and pasted directly from this source. [6]
They had two sons, Donald Bren, chairman of The Irvine Company in Newport Beach, CA and Peter Bren, a senior partner with KBS Investors of New York City...
Bundles For Britain evolved into the United States Naval Aide Auxiliary.
The Jorgensens were among the social elite of Los Angeles.
After serving with distinction on the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, Mrs. Jorgensen was honored … with election to Life Director.
-- Blechnic ( talk) 05:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Regarding Frank Leslie Walcott, the sentence was absolutely not taken word-for-word from the source. The source reads "...the principal organizer of the labour movement of Barbados and a major figure in stimulating mass participation in politics." while the article reads "...the principal organizer of the labor movement of Barbados and a major figure in stimulating participation in the nation's political process." Could this be reworded a bit more? Sure, and I'll do that when I'm finished here, but I greatly resent being accused of plagiarism and not even being notified by my accuser so that I might defend myself. Furthermore, the journal from which the cricket info is taken from is available on Google Scholar, though unless I'm mistaken a source's online availability is completely irrelevant. faithless (speak) 05:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
It appears that user Blechnic has retired from the project after I threatened to take him to AN/I for breaches of wp:civ. So I guess it's business as usual at DYK for the time being. However, I do think the issue of plagiarism on DYK (and let's face it, on the project as a whole) is legitimate, and I'd really like to get hold of some free plagiarism software if anyone knows of any. Gatoclass ( talk) 08:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)