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Though no policy standardizing era style preference currently exists, only a nonbinding style guide permitting both BCE/CE and BC/AD, Jguk/ Jongarrettuk has been unilateraly changing BCE/CE to BC/AD systemwide having made over 1,000 edits to nearly 700 articles since October.
In mid-May, Slrubenstein brought a well-advertised proposal to the community to discuss making BCE/CE the Wikipedia standard. While most editors in general demonstrated a preference for BCE/CE as the academic standard, many of these same editors voted against the proposed policy as they did not want to completely eliminate BC/AD as an option. Those rejecting Slrubenstein's systemwide proposal for the most part were not against BCE/CE, but against making it the only standard. Jguk interpreted this to mean opposite of what it means, that all dates should now be BC/AD. Even in specific cases where the majority found it more NPOV in a particular article to use BCE/CE (see Jesus where a 2/3 majority favored BCE/CE over BC/AD), Jguk refused to allow BCE/CE, even rejecting the widely accepted compromise of BC/BCE incorporating both.
In January, Jguk quietly attempted to impose his point of view by simply editing policy to make BC/AD the only Wikipedia standard without wide community discussion. In December, Jguk withdrew as a candidate for arbitrator after other editors specifically complained about his problem behavior due to his BC/AD obsession.
Of the nearly 700 articles where jguk changed BCE/CE to BC/AD, there are 27 articles in which he made 4 or more attempts to impose BC/AD when other editors resisted his changes. He also edit-warred at Common Era reverting an external link 15 times.
(more to come...)
This is the first time I've ever done anything like this. I've done my best; please tell me if it's not right. I have only included diffs related to articles on which I've worked. This is only a small part of the aggressive editing.
In defence of Jguk I believe it is appropriate to show the actions of other users. A decision to impose a punishment against one of these may been seen as unfair if similar action isn't taken against other parties. Virtually all edits have been good faith, with both parties thinking their way is the best way for the articles, but both sides could be accused of POV pushing. I'll present a summary of some of the articles of which I am aware there has been a dispute along with details of the main promoter of BCE/CE, SouthernComfort. As I have been involved there may be some elements of bias, though I have tried to avoid this. violet/riga (t) 09:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The major problem comes because of the interpretation of the policies and guidelines regarding the topic. It is generally acknowledged that articles should not be changed from one spelling style to another (such as British English to American English) without a lot of discussion. However, there is no enforceable policy that reflects changes between era systems, hence Wikipedia:Eras. Both sides have good points but clear POVs. Pro-BCE/CE people insist that it is appropriate for (all?) non-Western European and non-Christian articles and that the changeover of many of these articles should be done because the main contributors of the articles have gained consensus. However, with the recent proposal regarding this having come up against major opposition, it does seem wrong to be going ahead with the change.
Personally I don't see the need for any action against those involved. The articles involved will be protected if the warring continues and they will be blocked for 3RR violation if the situation arises. I think Wikipedia:Eras will be able to prevent future (and maybe current) problems regarding this. violet/riga (t) 15:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
List of kings of Persia ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Details:
The discussion on the article talk page began 05:27, 21 May 2005 (UTC) when user:SouthernComfort stated his case for the change (just after he had done a reversion). Several people opposed, and several supported. My view was that the article should remain at its original state until such discussions had taken place and consensus reached. The opposing view was that the consensus of the main contributors to the article was to use BCE/CE. The edit wars continued until I protected it (having waited for 11 hours for another admin to do so after a WP:RFPP). violet/riga (t) 09:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Zoroastrianism ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Still being discussed on the talk page. violet/riga (t) 09:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
SouthernComfort ( talk · contribs)
One of the main promoters of BCE/CE is SouthernComfort. He is the one edit-warring with Jguk the most, and is the one that originally changed many of the articles from BC/AD to BCE/CE. I think the main problem here is that SouthernComfort had his edits reverted by more than one person on all the articles he changed. If he had stopped to discuss this rather than continue the reversions then this may have helped this situation. Note, however, that SouthernComfort is not the only person to have wanted to use BCE/CE and others have supported him and also reverted to his version.
SouthernComfort has repeatedly stated his view:
This is quite a problem because he is not listening to the objections of people that do in fact dispute that. While he may have the support of some editors, he doesn't have the support of everybody, yet continues to edit war. He has also not given any input to Wikipedia:Eras. violet/riga (t) 15:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
No action would be required against any person involved if we push through and enforce Wikipedia:Eras. violet/riga (t) 09:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ever since Jguk joined Wikipedia (originally as Jongarrettuk), he has engaged in a systematic campaign to rid all articles of BCE/CE notation, using the following methods:
I apologize for the age of some of these diffs as it was originally my intention to start from Jguk's earliest edits and work my way forward, but I severely underestimated the scale of the changes Jguk has made, and as such enumerating all examples of date changes would be far too time consuming, to collate as well as to read. The following is just a sample of some of Jguk's edits to remove BCE/CE. I would also like to add that aside from changing BCE/CE to BC/AD, Jguk has made no other significant contribution to these articles. He has been asked as far back as October of 2004 to stop unilaterally making changes from BCE/CE to BC/AD [206] but has continued his campaign to this day.
Many of his edits changing date formats are marked minor and/or have no description. Even when they do have descriptions, he never explicitly states that he is changing date formats, but instead the edit summary contains, at various times, "tweaks", "consistency", "think of the reader", and the like.
Consistency is a good thing to strive for, but unfortunately, in this case, Jguk uses consistency as a weapon, seizing upon the usage of even one instance of BC/AD as an excuse to change the entire article to BC/AD, instead of being an impartial editor.
First use can be a good guide to settle debates, but articles must be allowed to evolve with wishes of new contributors. If "first use" were made a hard and fast rule, then United Kingdom would have to use American English as the article began life from the CIA World fact-book, yet today, United Kingdom uses British English, as it should. We need to have the flexibility to adapt and change articles, yet User Jguk has used "first use" as a weapon to prevent other contributors (whom, it should be noted, contribute content, instead of only changing date formats to the articles in question), from making any date related changes. These changes, in general, have met with no objection by any of the other editors of the articles in question, but only from Jguk.
In summary, I do believe that User:Jguk honestly believes that BC/AD is better and more widely understood, but he fails to accord BCE/CE or its proponents any consideration that they may also genuinely disagree, and have valid reasons for doing so.
Disruptive insertion of BC/AD has not slowed since RfA filed. No content added by Jguk. Examples in Parthia. Contrary to Jguk's contention, none of these examples are of removal of extraneous BCE/CE terms, but always insertion of BC/AD (likewise for almost all examples provided by other editors).
Rebuttal of item number [7] by User:Zora, Islam and other religions [232]
Gene Nygaard 16:09, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Gene Nygaards' "rebuttal" helps us pinpoint the exact problem here. In an article about Islam, unspecified "9th and 10th centuries" could easily refer to the Islamic calendar. Yet, on that talk page, Jguk claims Incidentally, I have in the past removed both "AD"s and "CE"s from articles where there is no chance of any confusion about which year is being referred to. Zocky 07:13, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Short answers to RickK's concerns below:
One really has to wonder how Zocky can possibly believe that unspecified "9th and 10th centuries" could easily refer to the Islamic calendar. in an English language encyclopedia, the majority of whose articles refer to the Gregorian calendar. Yet more insertion of the anti-Western bias this use of BCE/CE incorporates. Rick K 07:29, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
The origins of this dispute arose with User:Slrubenstein deciding to launch a campaign to replace the BC/AD date notation that WP predominantly uses with BCE/CE throughout. He started it on Jesus (see also Talk:Jesus).
He then launched a full campaign - very much on his own terms - which resulted in a vote shown on [233]. Although Slrubenstein chose the questions, restricted debate to what he wanted to discuss, his proposal not only failed to obtain a consensus but did not even come close to getting a majority. (Note that I did not even vote - it being clear there was no consensus for Slrubenstein's policy proposal.)
The issue should have stopped here. However, at around this time User:SouthernComfort began changing date notation as if Slrubenstein's proposal had passed (see below). After I reverted him (as the proposal had failed) he asked Slrubenstein what he should do vs BC/AD as regards to existing articles. Had Slrubenstein answered, as he should have done, "I agree with you, but unfortunately there was no consensus for this change, and if you keep making it you are only likely to annoy other users" the issue may have stopped there. Instead, Slrubenstein invited the dispute to continue, promising SouthernComfort support [234]
He did this by reverting, but his real aim of trying to get the ArbCom to support his position (at least in part) was shown early on [235]. Note also that when he did file a case, it was straight to ArbCom, with no RfC or RfM (See his original RfAr complaint).
Throughout the debate Slrubenstein has been taking a politician's approach - adapting his argument and tactics to keep himself. I'm afraid I am not so politically minded as him, so my response is not so cleverly crafted as his accusations.
For example, despite his starting his campaign on the Jesus article, he later claimed that he did not mind seeing BC/AD in articles connected with Christianity. He also followed the politician's approach of trying to keep himself in the clear whilst encouraging others to do the dirty work. I admit I know that by opposing someone intent on enforcing what they see as a "politically correct" view, I was putting my head above the parapet. This is the culmination of it. But as can be seen, all I was doing was reverting attempts to enforce Slrubenstein's failed proposal. It is disappointing that he has engineered a concerted effort by a small number of editors to implement it on a small number of articles.
I argue that Slrubenstein should have accepted that his proposal had been defeated. He should not have incited another user to start edit wars and use aggressive tactics to get his proposal adopted by the back door. As an admin, Slrubenstein should be held to a higher degree of responsibility than non-admins. He has clearly failed.
The following diffs show Slrubenstein actively involved in edit-warring to support his failed proposal. In each case the articles started off using BC/AD notation before SouthernComfort changed them. A number of users (RickK, VioletRiga and myself) reverted to the original forms, Slrubenstein then edit warred with these three users by re-added his preferred notation:
[236] [237] [238] [239] [240] [241] [242] [243] [244] [245] [246] [247] [248] [249] [250] [251]
As noted above, and as the evidence clearly demonstrates, all I have been doing is reverting attempts to enforce a failed policy proposal. For this I have been accused of vandalism, suffered religious insults and received comments that the editors themselves have admitted were deemed to cause offence to me. I have not stooped to their level (as can be seen by the lack of accusations of personal attacks by me). I considered entering this behaviour into evidence for the ArbCom's consideration, but have decided against it. I think it's important to note that whilst others have carried out his bidding, it is Slrubenstein's actions by deliberately picking a dispute, then inciting others to revert war over it, and then to attempt to bring a case before ArbCom with a request that someone should be banned from a wide range of articles merely because they have a different outlook than him that demand scrutiny.
Throughout my actions have been to revert changes to articles that were made in an attempt to implement Slrubenstein's failed proposal. The evidence noted above demonstrates that. My views on the underlying debate are clear - but that is not for ArbCom to consider. The principle here is what should happen if some users try to implement a proposal that has clearly failed to gain consensus - and to edit war when they are reverted.
Note also that I was not the only one reverting these changes - VioletRiga, RickK and others also reverted them: Slrubenstein's policy proposal had failed after all.
As Zora has noted, I have also edited some articles related to Islam. Mohammad was born in the 6th century, and Islam dates from around the late 6th/early 7th century. There is no need to disambiguate years between BC and AD. When I see them, I remove all references to both AD and CE as unnecessary. I was surprised to see Zora's comments - I did not see them, and do not see them, as part of this dispute.
I have restricted my comments, my defence and my evidence against Slrubenstein to the original charges - which effectively were that I was wrong to revert (along with others) attempts by a small group of editors to implement a policy that failed to gain consensus. If the ArbCom has any questions it would like to ask of me, or other areas that it would like me to address or provide more links for, I will happily do so. Just leave a message on my talk page and let me know where the questions are. Kind regards, jguk 19:20, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For some time now, Jguk (formerly User:Jongarrettuk) has engaged in a destructive pattern of edits relating to dating of eras (BC/AD; BCE/CE) in articles. As I believe my evidence will show, his actions are in violation of fundamental principles of Wikipedia relating to NPOV, consensus, and assume good faith.
Jguk’s inability to accept consensus was evident in his behaviour related to inclusion of www.religioustolerance.org as an external link. The website is the highest-volume religious site on the Internet. It added new information not contained in the article.
During the religioustolerance debate, Jguk continued to remove material contributed by other authors, showing an inability to assume good faith. For example:
Beginning on May 21, 2005, a number of reverts were conducted by Jguk on articles related to Persia. A new user by the name of SouthernComfort had changed the Era date notation on some of the Persian articles to BCE/CE. SouthernComfort’s rationale as stated on Talk: List of kings of Persia was the following:
It should be noted that SouthernComfort has made significant contributions as an author to articles on Persia (many sorely in need of clean-up). As Jguk was not an author of articles on Persia, I reverted several of Jguk’s changes and attempted to discuss the Manual of Style guidelines and the need for consensus on the talk pages of the articles concerned. Where a strong majority of authors indicated a preference for a particular notation, an attempt was made to articulate the consensus and maintain that notation.
For example, on List of kings of Persia, the relevent section from the MoS was quoted and the following entry added:
However, most were changed to BCE/CE. A strong majority of authors of Persian articles have indicated a preference for BCE/CE on one or more talk pages (these include: SouthernComfort, Siafu, Zereshk, Jpbrenna and Zora. Codex Sinaiticus indicated a preference for BC/AD. Most of these authors indicated that they wished to stay out of the edit war.
Jguk refused to abide by any agreements and continued to revert. After all other users had ceased reverts, Jguk continued until he was the last revert on virtually all of the articles on Persia.
The article Darius I of Persia illustrates the situation. Note that the patterns of reverts on this page is typical of dozens of articles that were the subject of the “revert war” from May 21 – 27.
Jguk's edits and unbending statements on talk pages show him unable to describe debates fairly rather than advocating any side of the debate as set out in Wikipedia: Neutral point of view. On BCE/CE issues, he rigidly maintains his POV and avoids working towards consensus. Finally, his tendency to revert rather than build on other editors' contributions illustrates his failure to assume good faith.
While a policy clarification theoretically might improve the situation that exists with dating of eras, attempts to clarify policy by Slrubenstein and Violet/riga have gone nowhere ( Wikipedia talk:Eras shows the failure of the latter proposal). It is also possible that the existing policy framework is adequate, if users like Jguk would abide by it. Judicious corrective action could assist this process. Given Jguk's failure to abide by policies where BCE/CE is concerned, it seems advisable to restrict his edits on Common Era and articles on Persia and to prohibit him from reverting eras from BCE/CE to BC/AD.
19 October
25 October
18 May
11 May
14 May
Jguk has continued changing conventions in articles that I am currently working on from BCE/CE to BC/AD. In those articles where only CE is used, he removes it, leaving no dating convention, stating that there is no need to disambiguate.
Over the many months I have been contributing to the Common Era article, and even before (see history page of Chinese art, Nov. 27-28, 2004), I have realized that User:Jguk harbors an intense personal bias against common era notation. As many others have already documented here, he incessantly reverts as many instances of it as he can find on Wikipedia.
He hides his behavior behind protestations that common era notation is not "reader-friendly," or is inconsiderate to international readers, or is unfamiliar to the average reader, or similar arguments. (Others have documented these arguments, so I won't duplicate their efforts here.) Of course, personal bias is indefensible on Wikipedia, while regard for the reader is laudable, so I am quite sure that Jguk uses the latter as a cover for the former. I have every confidence that my and others' evidence here will demonstrate that.
I believe that my evidence documents systematic and systemic "meta-vandalism" of Wikipedia by Jguk. His claims of advocating for "reader-friendliness" are grounded in his user page, which states: "I strongly believe that articles should be written so they can be easily understood by as wide an audience as possible and edit in accordance with that belief."
Apparently, he believes that "easily understood" means "instantly understood." This is evident by his outrageous claim that if a reader encounters anything unfamiliar, he or she will "give up and go somewhere else." ( [306] — See Jguk's comments of 20:11, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC).
But he cannot really think this; he obviously realizes that people won't necessarily "give up," but rather click on a link or do a Google search or do a search within Wikipedia itself. This is where meta-vandalism comes in.
Jguk clearly knows that at least some readers will come to the Common Era page to find out more about the BCE/CE notation they may encounter on Wikipedia. It is on this article that Jguk has squatted, has "policed," and has aggressively edited to match his own POV, chasing off many good-faith contributors in the process.
I call this behavior "meta-vandalism" because it affects every article on Wikipedia that uses the disputed notation. That's a lot of articles! So when people come to the Common Era page for explanation, they will at least get Jguk's preferred version of the dispute, since he can't always prevail on the many individual pages he incessantly reverts.
This meta-vandalism aggregates all the points that Jguk makes on multiple pages in just one place, the Common Era article, a presumptive source of authority on the matter. But since he can't win on every page, he tries to make the Common Era page be the yardstick by which all other pages on Wikipedia are judged.
His general points follow, and are detailed by supporting diffs separated into thematic sections. Please note that while some diffs are repeated, each one showcases a distinct theme. This reflects the fact that more than one concept may be introduced in within one editing session.
Jguk has also rejected several reasonable compromises, also documented below.
Jguk's general (stated) objections to Common Era notation are that:
Jguk is especially tenacious on this third point, though I would wager if you asked any non-Christian if they were living in the Christian era, they'd say "no" 9 out of 10 times!
My evidence follows. The diffs in each section are listed in chronological order. I know some of these areas overlap slightly, but I believe they are distinct enough to warrant their own sections.
A. Common Era notation isn't well-known, popular, widely used, etc.
B. AD/BC is the most common notation (this is true, though irresponsibly overemphasized by Jguk)
C. Not even well-known or widely used in academia (arguable, but you'd be hard pressed to find any Ph.D. outside of mathematics or science who doesn't at least know what it is)
D. China doesn't use CE notation universally (completely untrue)
At this point, evidence is given on the talk page that supports the assertion that common era notation is universally used in China. Even Jguk cannot ignore the conclusiveness of this information, so he begins attacking this point using a different approach, saying that a translation of the term "common era" is used "in Chinese," not universally "in China." This subtle shift has two advantages: the first is that the change is factually correct; the second is that his edit hides the fact he dislikes by omission, not insertion. This way he cleverly hides a larger truth with a smaller one, and knows that at this point his repackaged POV will be viewed by the other Wikipedians he routinely exhausts as a magnanimous concession.
E. Common Era = Christian Era
F. "Common era" is "politically correct"
G. "Evidence" of minor significance (British schools, New South Wales legislature. Jguk presents political/governmental debates as evidence of authority, as they happen to be arguments he agrees with)
Compromises
Respectfully submitted,
dablaze 00:31, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.
When placing evidence here, please be considerate of the arbitrators and be concise. Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful.
As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff; links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=5587219&oldid=5584644] [1].
This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.
Please make a section for your evidence and add evidence only in your own section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs, a much shorter, concise presentation is more likely to be effective. Please focus on the issues raised in the complaint and answer and on diffs which illustrate behavior which relates to the issues.
If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user.
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Though no policy standardizing era style preference currently exists, only a nonbinding style guide permitting both BCE/CE and BC/AD, Jguk/ Jongarrettuk has been unilateraly changing BCE/CE to BC/AD systemwide having made over 1,000 edits to nearly 700 articles since October.
In mid-May, Slrubenstein brought a well-advertised proposal to the community to discuss making BCE/CE the Wikipedia standard. While most editors in general demonstrated a preference for BCE/CE as the academic standard, many of these same editors voted against the proposed policy as they did not want to completely eliminate BC/AD as an option. Those rejecting Slrubenstein's systemwide proposal for the most part were not against BCE/CE, but against making it the only standard. Jguk interpreted this to mean opposite of what it means, that all dates should now be BC/AD. Even in specific cases where the majority found it more NPOV in a particular article to use BCE/CE (see Jesus where a 2/3 majority favored BCE/CE over BC/AD), Jguk refused to allow BCE/CE, even rejecting the widely accepted compromise of BC/BCE incorporating both.
In January, Jguk quietly attempted to impose his point of view by simply editing policy to make BC/AD the only Wikipedia standard without wide community discussion. In December, Jguk withdrew as a candidate for arbitrator after other editors specifically complained about his problem behavior due to his BC/AD obsession.
Of the nearly 700 articles where jguk changed BCE/CE to BC/AD, there are 27 articles in which he made 4 or more attempts to impose BC/AD when other editors resisted his changes. He also edit-warred at Common Era reverting an external link 15 times.
(more to come...)
This is the first time I've ever done anything like this. I've done my best; please tell me if it's not right. I have only included diffs related to articles on which I've worked. This is only a small part of the aggressive editing.
In defence of Jguk I believe it is appropriate to show the actions of other users. A decision to impose a punishment against one of these may been seen as unfair if similar action isn't taken against other parties. Virtually all edits have been good faith, with both parties thinking their way is the best way for the articles, but both sides could be accused of POV pushing. I'll present a summary of some of the articles of which I am aware there has been a dispute along with details of the main promoter of BCE/CE, SouthernComfort. As I have been involved there may be some elements of bias, though I have tried to avoid this. violet/riga (t) 09:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The major problem comes because of the interpretation of the policies and guidelines regarding the topic. It is generally acknowledged that articles should not be changed from one spelling style to another (such as British English to American English) without a lot of discussion. However, there is no enforceable policy that reflects changes between era systems, hence Wikipedia:Eras. Both sides have good points but clear POVs. Pro-BCE/CE people insist that it is appropriate for (all?) non-Western European and non-Christian articles and that the changeover of many of these articles should be done because the main contributors of the articles have gained consensus. However, with the recent proposal regarding this having come up against major opposition, it does seem wrong to be going ahead with the change.
Personally I don't see the need for any action against those involved. The articles involved will be protected if the warring continues and they will be blocked for 3RR violation if the situation arises. I think Wikipedia:Eras will be able to prevent future (and maybe current) problems regarding this. violet/riga (t) 15:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
List of kings of Persia ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Details:
The discussion on the article talk page began 05:27, 21 May 2005 (UTC) when user:SouthernComfort stated his case for the change (just after he had done a reversion). Several people opposed, and several supported. My view was that the article should remain at its original state until such discussions had taken place and consensus reached. The opposing view was that the consensus of the main contributors to the article was to use BCE/CE. The edit wars continued until I protected it (having waited for 11 hours for another admin to do so after a WP:RFPP). violet/riga (t) 09:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Zoroastrianism ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Still being discussed on the talk page. violet/riga (t) 09:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
SouthernComfort ( talk · contribs)
One of the main promoters of BCE/CE is SouthernComfort. He is the one edit-warring with Jguk the most, and is the one that originally changed many of the articles from BC/AD to BCE/CE. I think the main problem here is that SouthernComfort had his edits reverted by more than one person on all the articles he changed. If he had stopped to discuss this rather than continue the reversions then this may have helped this situation. Note, however, that SouthernComfort is not the only person to have wanted to use BCE/CE and others have supported him and also reverted to his version.
SouthernComfort has repeatedly stated his view:
This is quite a problem because he is not listening to the objections of people that do in fact dispute that. While he may have the support of some editors, he doesn't have the support of everybody, yet continues to edit war. He has also not given any input to Wikipedia:Eras. violet/riga (t) 15:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
No action would be required against any person involved if we push through and enforce Wikipedia:Eras. violet/riga (t) 09:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ever since Jguk joined Wikipedia (originally as Jongarrettuk), he has engaged in a systematic campaign to rid all articles of BCE/CE notation, using the following methods:
I apologize for the age of some of these diffs as it was originally my intention to start from Jguk's earliest edits and work my way forward, but I severely underestimated the scale of the changes Jguk has made, and as such enumerating all examples of date changes would be far too time consuming, to collate as well as to read. The following is just a sample of some of Jguk's edits to remove BCE/CE. I would also like to add that aside from changing BCE/CE to BC/AD, Jguk has made no other significant contribution to these articles. He has been asked as far back as October of 2004 to stop unilaterally making changes from BCE/CE to BC/AD [206] but has continued his campaign to this day.
Many of his edits changing date formats are marked minor and/or have no description. Even when they do have descriptions, he never explicitly states that he is changing date formats, but instead the edit summary contains, at various times, "tweaks", "consistency", "think of the reader", and the like.
Consistency is a good thing to strive for, but unfortunately, in this case, Jguk uses consistency as a weapon, seizing upon the usage of even one instance of BC/AD as an excuse to change the entire article to BC/AD, instead of being an impartial editor.
First use can be a good guide to settle debates, but articles must be allowed to evolve with wishes of new contributors. If "first use" were made a hard and fast rule, then United Kingdom would have to use American English as the article began life from the CIA World fact-book, yet today, United Kingdom uses British English, as it should. We need to have the flexibility to adapt and change articles, yet User Jguk has used "first use" as a weapon to prevent other contributors (whom, it should be noted, contribute content, instead of only changing date formats to the articles in question), from making any date related changes. These changes, in general, have met with no objection by any of the other editors of the articles in question, but only from Jguk.
In summary, I do believe that User:Jguk honestly believes that BC/AD is better and more widely understood, but he fails to accord BCE/CE or its proponents any consideration that they may also genuinely disagree, and have valid reasons for doing so.
Disruptive insertion of BC/AD has not slowed since RfA filed. No content added by Jguk. Examples in Parthia. Contrary to Jguk's contention, none of these examples are of removal of extraneous BCE/CE terms, but always insertion of BC/AD (likewise for almost all examples provided by other editors).
Rebuttal of item number [7] by User:Zora, Islam and other religions [232]
Gene Nygaard 16:09, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Gene Nygaards' "rebuttal" helps us pinpoint the exact problem here. In an article about Islam, unspecified "9th and 10th centuries" could easily refer to the Islamic calendar. Yet, on that talk page, Jguk claims Incidentally, I have in the past removed both "AD"s and "CE"s from articles where there is no chance of any confusion about which year is being referred to. Zocky 07:13, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Short answers to RickK's concerns below:
One really has to wonder how Zocky can possibly believe that unspecified "9th and 10th centuries" could easily refer to the Islamic calendar. in an English language encyclopedia, the majority of whose articles refer to the Gregorian calendar. Yet more insertion of the anti-Western bias this use of BCE/CE incorporates. Rick K 07:29, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
The origins of this dispute arose with User:Slrubenstein deciding to launch a campaign to replace the BC/AD date notation that WP predominantly uses with BCE/CE throughout. He started it on Jesus (see also Talk:Jesus).
He then launched a full campaign - very much on his own terms - which resulted in a vote shown on [233]. Although Slrubenstein chose the questions, restricted debate to what he wanted to discuss, his proposal not only failed to obtain a consensus but did not even come close to getting a majority. (Note that I did not even vote - it being clear there was no consensus for Slrubenstein's policy proposal.)
The issue should have stopped here. However, at around this time User:SouthernComfort began changing date notation as if Slrubenstein's proposal had passed (see below). After I reverted him (as the proposal had failed) he asked Slrubenstein what he should do vs BC/AD as regards to existing articles. Had Slrubenstein answered, as he should have done, "I agree with you, but unfortunately there was no consensus for this change, and if you keep making it you are only likely to annoy other users" the issue may have stopped there. Instead, Slrubenstein invited the dispute to continue, promising SouthernComfort support [234]
He did this by reverting, but his real aim of trying to get the ArbCom to support his position (at least in part) was shown early on [235]. Note also that when he did file a case, it was straight to ArbCom, with no RfC or RfM (See his original RfAr complaint).
Throughout the debate Slrubenstein has been taking a politician's approach - adapting his argument and tactics to keep himself. I'm afraid I am not so politically minded as him, so my response is not so cleverly crafted as his accusations.
For example, despite his starting his campaign on the Jesus article, he later claimed that he did not mind seeing BC/AD in articles connected with Christianity. He also followed the politician's approach of trying to keep himself in the clear whilst encouraging others to do the dirty work. I admit I know that by opposing someone intent on enforcing what they see as a "politically correct" view, I was putting my head above the parapet. This is the culmination of it. But as can be seen, all I was doing was reverting attempts to enforce Slrubenstein's failed proposal. It is disappointing that he has engineered a concerted effort by a small number of editors to implement it on a small number of articles.
I argue that Slrubenstein should have accepted that his proposal had been defeated. He should not have incited another user to start edit wars and use aggressive tactics to get his proposal adopted by the back door. As an admin, Slrubenstein should be held to a higher degree of responsibility than non-admins. He has clearly failed.
The following diffs show Slrubenstein actively involved in edit-warring to support his failed proposal. In each case the articles started off using BC/AD notation before SouthernComfort changed them. A number of users (RickK, VioletRiga and myself) reverted to the original forms, Slrubenstein then edit warred with these three users by re-added his preferred notation:
[236] [237] [238] [239] [240] [241] [242] [243] [244] [245] [246] [247] [248] [249] [250] [251]
As noted above, and as the evidence clearly demonstrates, all I have been doing is reverting attempts to enforce a failed policy proposal. For this I have been accused of vandalism, suffered religious insults and received comments that the editors themselves have admitted were deemed to cause offence to me. I have not stooped to their level (as can be seen by the lack of accusations of personal attacks by me). I considered entering this behaviour into evidence for the ArbCom's consideration, but have decided against it. I think it's important to note that whilst others have carried out his bidding, it is Slrubenstein's actions by deliberately picking a dispute, then inciting others to revert war over it, and then to attempt to bring a case before ArbCom with a request that someone should be banned from a wide range of articles merely because they have a different outlook than him that demand scrutiny.
Throughout my actions have been to revert changes to articles that were made in an attempt to implement Slrubenstein's failed proposal. The evidence noted above demonstrates that. My views on the underlying debate are clear - but that is not for ArbCom to consider. The principle here is what should happen if some users try to implement a proposal that has clearly failed to gain consensus - and to edit war when they are reverted.
Note also that I was not the only one reverting these changes - VioletRiga, RickK and others also reverted them: Slrubenstein's policy proposal had failed after all.
As Zora has noted, I have also edited some articles related to Islam. Mohammad was born in the 6th century, and Islam dates from around the late 6th/early 7th century. There is no need to disambiguate years between BC and AD. When I see them, I remove all references to both AD and CE as unnecessary. I was surprised to see Zora's comments - I did not see them, and do not see them, as part of this dispute.
I have restricted my comments, my defence and my evidence against Slrubenstein to the original charges - which effectively were that I was wrong to revert (along with others) attempts by a small group of editors to implement a policy that failed to gain consensus. If the ArbCom has any questions it would like to ask of me, or other areas that it would like me to address or provide more links for, I will happily do so. Just leave a message on my talk page and let me know where the questions are. Kind regards, jguk 19:20, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For some time now, Jguk (formerly User:Jongarrettuk) has engaged in a destructive pattern of edits relating to dating of eras (BC/AD; BCE/CE) in articles. As I believe my evidence will show, his actions are in violation of fundamental principles of Wikipedia relating to NPOV, consensus, and assume good faith.
Jguk’s inability to accept consensus was evident in his behaviour related to inclusion of www.religioustolerance.org as an external link. The website is the highest-volume religious site on the Internet. It added new information not contained in the article.
During the religioustolerance debate, Jguk continued to remove material contributed by other authors, showing an inability to assume good faith. For example:
Beginning on May 21, 2005, a number of reverts were conducted by Jguk on articles related to Persia. A new user by the name of SouthernComfort had changed the Era date notation on some of the Persian articles to BCE/CE. SouthernComfort’s rationale as stated on Talk: List of kings of Persia was the following:
It should be noted that SouthernComfort has made significant contributions as an author to articles on Persia (many sorely in need of clean-up). As Jguk was not an author of articles on Persia, I reverted several of Jguk’s changes and attempted to discuss the Manual of Style guidelines and the need for consensus on the talk pages of the articles concerned. Where a strong majority of authors indicated a preference for a particular notation, an attempt was made to articulate the consensus and maintain that notation.
For example, on List of kings of Persia, the relevent section from the MoS was quoted and the following entry added:
However, most were changed to BCE/CE. A strong majority of authors of Persian articles have indicated a preference for BCE/CE on one or more talk pages (these include: SouthernComfort, Siafu, Zereshk, Jpbrenna and Zora. Codex Sinaiticus indicated a preference for BC/AD. Most of these authors indicated that they wished to stay out of the edit war.
Jguk refused to abide by any agreements and continued to revert. After all other users had ceased reverts, Jguk continued until he was the last revert on virtually all of the articles on Persia.
The article Darius I of Persia illustrates the situation. Note that the patterns of reverts on this page is typical of dozens of articles that were the subject of the “revert war” from May 21 – 27.
Jguk's edits and unbending statements on talk pages show him unable to describe debates fairly rather than advocating any side of the debate as set out in Wikipedia: Neutral point of view. On BCE/CE issues, he rigidly maintains his POV and avoids working towards consensus. Finally, his tendency to revert rather than build on other editors' contributions illustrates his failure to assume good faith.
While a policy clarification theoretically might improve the situation that exists with dating of eras, attempts to clarify policy by Slrubenstein and Violet/riga have gone nowhere ( Wikipedia talk:Eras shows the failure of the latter proposal). It is also possible that the existing policy framework is adequate, if users like Jguk would abide by it. Judicious corrective action could assist this process. Given Jguk's failure to abide by policies where BCE/CE is concerned, it seems advisable to restrict his edits on Common Era and articles on Persia and to prohibit him from reverting eras from BCE/CE to BC/AD.
19 October
25 October
18 May
11 May
14 May
Jguk has continued changing conventions in articles that I am currently working on from BCE/CE to BC/AD. In those articles where only CE is used, he removes it, leaving no dating convention, stating that there is no need to disambiguate.
Over the many months I have been contributing to the Common Era article, and even before (see history page of Chinese art, Nov. 27-28, 2004), I have realized that User:Jguk harbors an intense personal bias against common era notation. As many others have already documented here, he incessantly reverts as many instances of it as he can find on Wikipedia.
He hides his behavior behind protestations that common era notation is not "reader-friendly," or is inconsiderate to international readers, or is unfamiliar to the average reader, or similar arguments. (Others have documented these arguments, so I won't duplicate their efforts here.) Of course, personal bias is indefensible on Wikipedia, while regard for the reader is laudable, so I am quite sure that Jguk uses the latter as a cover for the former. I have every confidence that my and others' evidence here will demonstrate that.
I believe that my evidence documents systematic and systemic "meta-vandalism" of Wikipedia by Jguk. His claims of advocating for "reader-friendliness" are grounded in his user page, which states: "I strongly believe that articles should be written so they can be easily understood by as wide an audience as possible and edit in accordance with that belief."
Apparently, he believes that "easily understood" means "instantly understood." This is evident by his outrageous claim that if a reader encounters anything unfamiliar, he or she will "give up and go somewhere else." ( [306] — See Jguk's comments of 20:11, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC).
But he cannot really think this; he obviously realizes that people won't necessarily "give up," but rather click on a link or do a Google search or do a search within Wikipedia itself. This is where meta-vandalism comes in.
Jguk clearly knows that at least some readers will come to the Common Era page to find out more about the BCE/CE notation they may encounter on Wikipedia. It is on this article that Jguk has squatted, has "policed," and has aggressively edited to match his own POV, chasing off many good-faith contributors in the process.
I call this behavior "meta-vandalism" because it affects every article on Wikipedia that uses the disputed notation. That's a lot of articles! So when people come to the Common Era page for explanation, they will at least get Jguk's preferred version of the dispute, since he can't always prevail on the many individual pages he incessantly reverts.
This meta-vandalism aggregates all the points that Jguk makes on multiple pages in just one place, the Common Era article, a presumptive source of authority on the matter. But since he can't win on every page, he tries to make the Common Era page be the yardstick by which all other pages on Wikipedia are judged.
His general points follow, and are detailed by supporting diffs separated into thematic sections. Please note that while some diffs are repeated, each one showcases a distinct theme. This reflects the fact that more than one concept may be introduced in within one editing session.
Jguk has also rejected several reasonable compromises, also documented below.
Jguk's general (stated) objections to Common Era notation are that:
Jguk is especially tenacious on this third point, though I would wager if you asked any non-Christian if they were living in the Christian era, they'd say "no" 9 out of 10 times!
My evidence follows. The diffs in each section are listed in chronological order. I know some of these areas overlap slightly, but I believe they are distinct enough to warrant their own sections.
A. Common Era notation isn't well-known, popular, widely used, etc.
B. AD/BC is the most common notation (this is true, though irresponsibly overemphasized by Jguk)
C. Not even well-known or widely used in academia (arguable, but you'd be hard pressed to find any Ph.D. outside of mathematics or science who doesn't at least know what it is)
D. China doesn't use CE notation universally (completely untrue)
At this point, evidence is given on the talk page that supports the assertion that common era notation is universally used in China. Even Jguk cannot ignore the conclusiveness of this information, so he begins attacking this point using a different approach, saying that a translation of the term "common era" is used "in Chinese," not universally "in China." This subtle shift has two advantages: the first is that the change is factually correct; the second is that his edit hides the fact he dislikes by omission, not insertion. This way he cleverly hides a larger truth with a smaller one, and knows that at this point his repackaged POV will be viewed by the other Wikipedians he routinely exhausts as a magnanimous concession.
E. Common Era = Christian Era
F. "Common era" is "politically correct"
G. "Evidence" of minor significance (British schools, New South Wales legislature. Jguk presents political/governmental debates as evidence of authority, as they happen to be arguments he agrees with)
Compromises
Respectfully submitted,
dablaze 00:31, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)